quote:

---

Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
Do shipmates have a word, or words, that consistently throw(s) them off?

---

quote:

---

(in everyday speech, they are both pronounced without the "r" sound at the beginning, but "January" omits the letter itself, whereas "February" leaves it in.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gill H:
I always have to use a mnemonic to spell rhythm:

Rhythm Has Your Two Hips Moving

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gill H:
I always have to use a mnemonic to spell rhythm:

Rhythm Has Your Two Hips Moving

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jacobsen:
I'm with Eutychus on the -ize/ise divide. Even my spell checker agrees with me.

---

For a spell (ha ha) I had a client who insisted on the -ize spelling. To achieve this, I set the Word spell-checker to US English to catch all the relevant endings and then set it back to UK English, which would accept them as well as -ise.
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
I have dyslexia so most words do this to me. The words also float around on the page. I don’t bother reading text without line breaks, it’s too tiring.

When I was a teacher I was the best at teaching spelling as I understood just how much time, patience and effort it takes some children to learn the simplest words.

When I was a headteacher I got Admin to check every single written document. People are very judgmental about poor spelling and see it as lack of intelligence, which far from the truth.

As a child we were lined up in class if we got less than 5/10 for spelling tests. We had to stand there until the end of the morning then we were whacked with a ruler. Teachers assumed it was lack of effort. Truth is we take ten times the effort over every single piece of writing we do.

Can I get an ‘aaaaaymen’ and ‘praaaiyyyseee the Lorrrrrrd’ for computers. Spell checks and predictive text?


 

---

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
which far from the truth.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
which far from the truth.

---

Which is far from the truth

/ducks and runs

---

 

---

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
I'm just glad I'm not the only one that does that sort of thing!

Predictive text is a mixed blessing, though, as is voice-to-text. My Dragon sometimes takes itself for a prophetic voice, writing things like "incompetent management" instead of "innovative management" for my clients
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
I'm just glad I'm not the only one that does that sort of thing!

Predictive text is a mixed blessing, though, as is voice-to-text. My Dragon sometimes takes itself for a prophetic voice, writing things like "incompetent management" instead of "innovative management" for my clients

---

Help!

Yes, some typos are more embarrassing than others. Some are marvellously amusing too. I have a lot of blind friends and some of their voice to text missives are really funny.

Full body cringe typos.
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
Yesterday the children in my art class spent a whole lesson designing some inspiring words, things they want to feel eg -happy, proud, challenged, successful, caring kind.

I checked the words before they started colouring them. See my room blog for one result.


 

---

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
Do shipmates have a word, or words, that consistently throw(s) them off?

---

Like you, everything that's nearly the same in French and English: responsability, adress... and I can't bring myself to use the OED-approved English forms -ize and -ization, preferring -ise and -isation, even though some words barely exist with that form. I see it as my little translator's quirk.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Though and through are thoroughly puzzling.

---

I'm derailing myself, here, but in a different pub conversation, a different friend of mine and I were discussing -ough. I'm missing two(?), but off the top of my head:
though (long o)
through (oo)
rough (uf)
cough (awf)
bough (ow)
thought (aw)

Of course, some regional and class accent differences.

[ 08. February 2018, 15:26: Message edited by: Pangolin Guerre ]
 

---

Posted by Dormouse (# 5954) on :
 
I usually spell occasion wrongly (ocassion) but was told to remember that one might occasionally wear two Collars and one Sleeve ( = 2 cs and 1 s)

Bureaucracy would get me all of a tizz until I realised it was from the French (?) word bureau - and now, no problems!
 

---

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
I had a co-worker who could not spell to save his life, but was convinced that he was a great speller. After I left work for the day, he'd go into my computer (this was before the days that everything was password-protected), and "correct" my bad spelling.

Stupid Pigwidgeon put a "p" in the middle of "pumpkin." He couldn't hear a "p" pronounced, so it obviously didn't belong. He also removed the "t" from "mortgage" for the same reason.

I had a dictionary on my desk, which he could have consulted if he hadn't been so stubborn.

(My spellchecker -- this was MS-DOS -- was worthless. It tried to change "Bach" to "Bitch." )
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
In answer to the OP, noh.

Wot is this spel-ling ov wich u spik?



IJ
 

---

Posted by lily pad (# 11456) on :
 
I'm a good at spelling. I think it just comes naturally. Although, I do remember calling my grandmother up to ask her to spell a word for me as I was busy writing a letter and didn't have a dictionary at hand. You may think this is a normal thing to do but I was living thousands of kilometres away from her in the high arctic and she only had a grade six education and thought it quite ridiculous that I would waste money on the phone call. Boy could she spell!

There is something about seeing a word spelled incorrectly that makes it jump out at me. It is as if every word on the page fades into the background and that one word is highlighted in neon flashing lights. It's good if you need to read something over for someone. But it is awfully hard in this day and age as no one really seems to care if things follow convention or not.

[ 08. February 2018, 16:03: Message edited by: lily pad ]
 

---

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
As a child we were lined up in class if we got less than 5/10 for spelling tests. We had to stand there until the end of the morning then we were whacked with a ruler. Teachers assumed it was lack of effort. Truth is we take ten times the effort over every single piece of writing we do.

---

While never diagnosed as dyslexic, spelling has also always been an extra challenge for me. And while I never had anything as traumatic as what you describe happen to me, I definitely scored more than a few 0's on quizzes in a particular teacher's class, based solely on her policy that even if you got the content of the answer correct, one spelling error meant 0 credit. The worst part of that one was that we were grading eachother's papers, so it was luck of the draw on who was grading your paper in terms of their proofreading skills and willingness to fail a fellow student. (My wife has defended that policy, as one spelling error can also get a job application thrown in the trash. We actually had a rare emotional argument about this one.)

I have no concept of vowel order. I'm useless at jumbles and word scramble games. And I have to be extra careful when proofreading, because my eyes gloss over the errors and see the correct word based on context. At least it's a decent answer in job interviews when they ask about my biggest weakness, as I can at least talk about what I have done to remedy my issues.

TL/DR: Spellcheck and Google (a godsend when you don't know which version of a homophone spelling is correct) are my friends.
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
Og - I now have a postgraduate degree in SPLD (dyslexia) but wasn’t diagnosed until I was 50 years old. That diagnosis helped me a lot as I was able to ‘forgive’ myself and become confident in standing up for myself and other poor spellers.

I think your wife was wrong. If the paper wasn’t about spelling why mark down for it? When applying for a job get it read and re-read and re-read again. I was never impressed with poor applications when selecting for interview. Not because they couldn’t spell but because they hadn’t bothered to have it checked for them. One of the biggest skills and coping strategies with this condition is never to assume your writing passes muster.


 

---

Posted by Pangolin Guerre (# 18686) on :
 
That teacher's "0 policy" seems rather draconian to me. I remember one high school teacher (history) reminding us, whenever he assigned an essay, "And remember - spelling and grammar count," to be met with plaintive cries of "Oh, sir!" (This is when essays were handwritten, so my OED was my spellcheck.) He wouldn't fail someone for poor spelling or grammar, but they certainly had an impact on the grade.

Funny thing is, I sometimes do editorial work. I'm very conscious of the few words that trip me up consistently. Fortunately, "syrup" doesn't often pop up in market reports, consulting analyses, etc.

[ 08. February 2018, 16:40: Message edited by: Pangolin Guerre ]
 

---

Posted by Og, King of Bashan (# 9562) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
Not because they couldn’t spell but because they hadn’t bothered to have it checked for them. One of the biggest skills and coping strategies with this condition is never to assume your writing passes muster.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Though and through are thoroughly puzzling.

---

I'm derailing myself, here, but in a different pub conversation, a different friend of mine and I were discussing -ough. I'm missing two(?), but off the top of my head:
though (long o)
through (oo)
rough (uf)
cough (awf)
bough (ow)
thought (aw)

Of course, some regional and class accent differences.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dormouse:
Bureaucracy would get me all of a tizz until I realised it was from the French (?) word bureau - and now, no problems!

---

Both of those always get me because the start of the word sounds the same as the start of 'beautiful'. So I instinctively think they should be spelled 'beaureau' and 'beaurocracy'. But because the 2nd letter is wrong, it never gets picked up by a spellchecker.
 

---

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
hiccough - up
 

---

Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :
 
I'm one of the lucky ones - spelling never gave me any bother at all.

A couple of words I always have to think about though (especially if they appear as "down" clues in crossword puzzles):

necessary - I only sorted out the respective number of 'c's and 's's when I found out that the Latin word was "necesse". My Better Half (who went to an old-fashioned grammar school and studied Latin for far longer than I did) remembers it the technical way: one collar, two socks.

rhythm - no matter where I put the first 'h', it doesn't look quite right.
 

---

Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on :
 
Re: necessary. A friend uses 'never eat chips eat salad sandwiches and remain young', if that's of any help.

Spellcheck can be useful, but never trust MS grammarcheck especially for fiction. It tried to correct the phrase 'the cock started crowing' to 'the clock started crowing' in something I was reading yesterday. I think it only accounts for a word on either side and so misses the sense of complicated sentences.
 

---

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
I think Egypt is simply beyond the pale.
 

---

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
I think one of the most difficult words is "occurrence" (I had a teacher who included it on almost every spelling quiz). It has three points which can trip you up: one "c" or two, one "r" or two, and does it end with "ence" or "ance"?
 

---

Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on :
 
Benefit. Or is it benifit?

[ 09. February 2018, 06:30: Message edited by: jacobsen ]
 

---

Posted by Dormouse (# 5954) on :
 
Actually I struggle with ressurrection - two ss? two rs? Argh.
 

---

Posted by Stejjie (# 13941) on :
 
Privilege - I always have to think which way round the second 'i' and the 'e' go (though I note that I managed to spell it right first go that time!)

(I then managed to spell 'spell' wrong. Sigh...)
 

---

Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :
 
This morning I was struggling with "pigeon" primarily because I am a fan of old movies and I want to spell it "pidgeon." I blame Walter.
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hedgehog:
This morning I was struggling with "pigeon" primarily because I am a fan of old movies and I want to spell it "pidgeon." I blame Walter.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
... few yachts are true yachts.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by balaam:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
... few yachts are true yachts.

---

According to the Olympics, a windsurfer is a type of yacht.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hedgehog:

quote:

---

Originally posted by balaam:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
... few yachts are true yachts.

---

According to the Olympics, a windsurfer is a type of yacht.

---

It is nacht!

---

 

---

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dormouse:
Actually I struggle with ressurrection - two ss? two rs? Argh.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:


Of course, when typing I have a whole new set of issues. I think "hte" should be in the dictionary - I can spell it, I just can't type it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Though and through are thoroughly puzzling.

---

I'm derailing myself, here, but in a different pub conversation, a different friend of mine and I were discussing -ough. I'm missing two(?), but off the top of my head:
though (long o)
through (oo)
rough (uf)
cough (awf)
bough (ow)
thought (aw)

Of course, some regional and class accent differences.

---

thorough (uh)

This reminds me of when I lived in Milton Keynes. Three of the villages absorbed into the new town have names with -oughton at the end:

Broughton (B-raw-ton)
Loughton (L-ow-ton, 'ow' as in cow)
Woughton (Woof-ton)

These within a few miles of each other.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
... I think "hte" should be in the dictionary - I can spell it, I just can't type it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Though and through are thoroughly puzzling.

---

I'm derailing myself, here, but in a different pub conversation, a different friend of mine and I were discussing -ough. I'm missing two(?), but off the top of my head:
though (long o)
through (oo)
rough (uf)
cough (awf)
bough (ow)
thought (aw)

Of course, some regional and class accent differences.

---

I have on several occasions wondered about the correct pronunciation (which should be spelled pronounciation!) of Brenda Clough's name!

 

---

Posted by aliehs (# 18878) on :
 
What a wonderful topic.
I have always been a reasonably good speller, due no doubt to my early introduction to books and reading. I can never remember not being able to read. I read on the ship on the way to Australia when I was three, [can't remember the voyage either].But now that I am getting older, errors keep creeping in- or I write a word , and it just doesn't look right. Typing is even worse, since I am not a touch typist, and gaze at the keyboard, going hell for leather, and then look up at the screen , to find lots of red lines. And then I still miss some things, like misplaced apostrophes, or lack of spaces between words.
I got stuck on scissors of all things, the other day. All those "s"s. However, the thing that incenses me most are the misspelt signs on shop windows. Wouldn't you think they would know the names of the things they are selling? Rant over.
 

---

Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by jedijudy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Though and through are thoroughly puzzling.

---

I'm derailing myself, here, but in a different pub conversation, a different friend of mine and I were discussing -ough. I'm missing two(?), but off the top of my head:
though (long o)
through (oo)
rough (uf)
cough (awf)
bough (ow)
thought (aw)

Of course, some regional and class accent differences.

---

I have on several occasions wondered about the correct pronunciation (which should be spelled pronounciation!) of Brenda Clough's name!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
hiccough - up

---

quote:

---

Finally, which rhymes with enough --
Though, through, plough, or dough, or cough?
Hiccough has the sound of cup.
My advice is to give up!!!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gill H:
I always have to use a mnemonic to spell rhythm:

Rhythm Has Your Two Hips Moving

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jedijudy:
I have on several occasions wondered about the correct pronunciation (which should be spelled pronounciation!) of Brenda Clough's name!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
jacobsen--

Which "k"? Thx.

---

quote:

---

you might find that remembering how to spell "eleemosynary" makes you tend to use its synonym "charitable" instead. The good people of early England had mercy on themselves when it came to spelling and shortened the root of "eleemosynary," the Latin eleemosyna, to "ælmes,"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jacobsen:
I still pronounce Ikea as eekayah, having first met with the place when I was living in Germany 35 years ago. Can't get used to Aikeeyah even now.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jedijudy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by jacobsen:
I still pronounce Ikea as eekayah, having first met with the place when I was living in Germany 35 years ago. Can't get used to Aikeeyah even now.

---

The only time I've been in an IKEA was in Sweden, and they pronounced it Ick-ee-ah there!

---

Then they need to stop spelling it with a capital I
 

---

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
The city of Tucson. I always want to spell it "Tuscon". (It's pronounced "Too-sahn".)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by M.:
Re IKEA- surely the only correct pronunciation is 'Yuckier'?

M.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by M.:
Re IKEA- surely the only correct pronunciation is 'Yuckier'?

M.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by aliehs:

Another of the things I find irritating is when people use "stationery" when they mean "stationary" and vice versa. And "off" and "of".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by jedijudy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by jacobsen:
I still pronounce Ikea as eekayah, having first met with the place when I was living in Germany 35 years ago. Can't get used to Aikeeyah even now.

---

The only time I've been in an IKEA was in Sweden, and they pronounced it Ick-ee-ah there!

---

Then they need to stop spelling it with a capital I

---

Why would a capital change the pronunciation? English is weird; the rest of Europe understands that long I goes 'ee'. Cf. That island which is correctly pronounced Eebeetha (or arguably - eetha) , with no eyes. We're terrible. Cf also "choritso"

I am well aware that Delia Smith is responsible for that one, and the Great Vowel Shift most of the other ones.
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
It’s not so much the capital as the lack of double k or ck.

So Hikea would be ‘aye’ but Hikkea would be ‘i’ as in lid.

But, of course, Ikea isn’t an English word and us English do so like to pronounce things in our own sweet way
 

---

Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sandemaniac:
... I had particular trouble with the name Joseph, which always, always, came out first time as Jospeh...

---

I have that trouble with Louise, which has an unfortunate habit of coming out as Lousie.

No offence meant ...

And have you ever tried typing opportunity when you're in a hurry?
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
I have trouble writing my own (four letter) name! I can’t count the number of times I’ve spoiled lovely cards by spelling my own name wrong
 

---

Posted by Celtic Knotweed (# 13008) on :
 
When typing I have to be careful, since secretary is easily mis-typed as secretart, and in previous years I appear to have found a new town near Milton Keynes called Newpoet Pagnell (it should be Newport Pagnell).

A few years ago my brother and I were both amused/annoyed by Microsoft's suggestion that instead of writing papers about boreholes we meant to write about brothels... good thing we both always turn as much of the autocorrect options as possible off.
 

---

Posted by Sipech (# 16870) on :
 
When it comes to typing quickly, I am prone to two particular mistakes.

A mountainous country in central Europe, famed for its holey cheese and cuckoo clocks often comes out as Swizterland.

My religious outlook on life also leads, all too often, to adding an extra 't' whenever I address an email to anyone called Chris.
 

---

Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on :
 
At least you kept the e in holey - otherwise your religious tendency would be overdoing things.
 

---

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sipech:
One word I can never ever spell is 'diarrhoea'. Yes, I just had to copy & paste it.

---

quote:

---

Coupon should be q-pawn. Except when wrongly pronounced as coo-pawn. Tuesday said chewsday is a little too much.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
But, of course, Ikea isn’t an English word and us English do so like to pronounce things in our own sweet way

---

Like various forms of "contribute". The US puts the primary stress on the second syllable. You folks evidently put it on the first syllable.


Ye olde "two nations separated by a common language".

 

---

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
My friend's surname is Fetherstonhaugh - which of course you all know is pronounced Fanshaw.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
There was an episode of "Nanny & The Professor" where the British nanny explained this kind of thing. She had a relative named Chomandley Featherstoneshaw.*

It was pronounced "Chumley Fenshaw".

*Spelling approximate.

---

It's more usually spelt 'Cholmondley'. People have been known to joke about a fictitious person, who inherited the name, but alas only spelt 'Chumley'. And Featherstonehaugh is usually pronounced 'Fanshaw', not 'Fenshaw'.

My family also joked about another fictitious person who pronounced their name as 'Mrs Siddy-Bowtahm', with the stress on the last syllable.

Yes, as a warning to USians, 'Check out my new kakky pants’ would imply to British ears, a different shade of brown and a very embarrassing accident, one to which most people would not want to draw attention.
 

---

Posted by John3000 (# 18786) on :
 
I enjoyed the picture of the boldly titled "Remember that you are butt dust" service booklet doing the rounds on twitter this morning.
 

---

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :
 
I can't compete with kakky pants or butt dust.

I use one of the hidden functions of Google regularly. The define: function.

I have already used it in my blog this morning over the s or c in practi*e. It works by typing "define:word into Google, which then comes out with the definition.

Of course (not of coarse) I needed the word practise. I never fail to get that one wrong.
 

---

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :
 
This weekend an American friend was running round in a panic asking "Have you seen Erin? We need Erin!", and I'm looking at her in a confused fashion and thinking "we don't have an Erin in our church. Is this a new person I don't know?"

Turns out she was looking for Aaron.
 

---

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :
 
IKEA (I-kay-yah) comes from:
Ingvar
Kamprad [who grew up in]
Elmtaryd [farm in]
Agunnaryd
 

---

Posted by Martha (# 185) on :
 
I am usually a good speller but I always have to pause when spelling "broccoli" and think 1 C, 2 L's? Or 2 C's, 1 L?

I know brocolli is wrong when I've written it, but I still want to write it every time.

And it took a dictionary to convince me I was wrong about dessicate.
 

---

Posted by Tree Bee (# 4033) on :
 
Agree about broccoli. Have convinced myself it doesn’t really matter how I spell it on my shopping list.
I get in a speeling tangle over exercise, exited and excited.
 

---

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tree Bee:
I get in a speeling tangle over exercise, exited and excited.

---

C after the X every time for me too.
 

---

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by balaam:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tree Bee:
I get in a speeling tangle over exercise, exited and excited.

---

C after the X every time for me too.

---

quote:

---

I know brocolli is wrong when I've written it, but I still want to write it every time.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Piglet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
... I think "hte" should be in the dictionary - I can spell it, I just can't type it.

---

Along with tge, which is how it almost always comes out when I'm using the Tablet, causing swearing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
They're all cruciform vegetables, List here. Variations on one basic plant, where leaves and stems etc are emphasized in the species. Cruciform means cross-shaped and refers to the flowers. I have never seen a broc flower myself.

---

Whew, I'm not the only one to write "cruciform" instead of "cruciferous" when referring to these vegetables! I did that once on a post somewhere. No one noticed, but I was embarrassed. Am I wrong to think "cruciform" is incorrect for the vegetable, then?

I mean, obviously I speak about churches more frequently than about vegetables!
 

---

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :
 
That's a good question!

Re the other ones, hte etc. "doe snot" No idea if this is a problem for deer.
 

---

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by churchgeek:
The only way I can keep my deserts and desserts straight is that you might want to go for seconds if you have dessert!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
This weekend an American friend was running round in a panic asking "Have you seen Erin? We need Erin!", and I'm looking at her in a confused fashion and thinking "we don't have an Erin in our church. Is this a new person I don't know?"

Turns out she was looking for Aaron.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
This weekend an American friend was running round in a panic asking "Have you seen Erin? We need Erin!", and I'm looking at her in a confused fashion and thinking "we don't have an Erin in our church. Is this a new person I don't know?"

Turns out she was looking for Aaron.

---

OK, I'm American. How do you pronounce them differently?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gill H:

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
This weekend an American friend was running round in a panic asking "Have you seen Erin? We need Erin!", and I'm looking at her in a confused fashion and thinking "we don't have an Erin in our church. Is this a new person I don't know?"

Turns out she was looking for Aaron.

---

OK, I'm American. How do you pronounce them differently?

---

Erin = Erin
Aaron = air-on

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:
OK, I'm American. How do you pronounce them differently?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Golden Key:
In my US experience:

Erin = AIR-in or AIR-un

Aaron =AIR-un (or sometimes AIR-in)

IME, they're pronounced *more or less* the same, unless the wearer of the name pronounces it according to another language. (E.g., Irish, Hebrew.)

---

I think that's the root of the problem. Names are taken from a variety of cultures which have different rules for language and pronunciation. Comparing "John" around the British Isles gives quite a variety: John, Sean, Sion and Ian: I'm sure there are others (and I haven't interfered with spelling yet) and that is all before one crosses the channel!
 

---

Posted by wild haggis (# 15555) on :
 
Is it any wonder that we dyslexics have problems with English!

I never got more than 0/10 (usually -6 to -10!) in dictation at school. I was marked down from an A to a B in my Higher (A Level) English because of spelling! I'm not thick, in spite of being labelled as such, because I couldn't spell.

Good spelling is not a mark of intelligence - just of memorisation. Bad spelling didn't stop me ending up with a post-grad masters from one of the top unis in Britain. So spelling isn't everything.

In its historic development, English is a mixture of all sorts of languages. No wonder it is so difficult to spell.

I'm learning Welsh. Once you have grasped the phonics, different from English sound values, the words say as they are written (unlike English). Easy. It's the grammar and mutations that cause problems!!

Teachers of young children will tell you of the difficulties in teaching their pupils to read in English - especially children who have very logical brains. One phoneme will say one sound in one word but a completely different sound in another. As to diphthongs! I won't go there!

There are so many exceptions to the rules in English. You need to have both phonics and "look and say"/"red words"/exceptions that you just have to memorise.
Just think about: there/their/they're
Eek........................
40 years of teaching primary kids has turned my hair bright red!!!

No wonder foreigners find English so difficult.

Some languages, have a totally logical system of phonetics and one sound will have the same value in every word - unless it is a "loan word" from another language. So easy. Not so English.
 

---

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
I'd say that usual UK usage is,

Erin = girl's name that is also a poetic name for 'Ireland', as in 'Isle of Erin'. Pronounced as Gill H, Leorning Cniht and Alieh have described.

Aaron = boy's name, brother of Moses, again pronounced as Gill H, Leorning Cniht and Alieh have described except that for clarity's sake, I'd say that the 'o' is usually a schwa, ǝ.

Arron = boy's name, sometimes spelt Aron, meaning and derivation unclear. It may be a corruption of Aaron or may be a misspelling of either the Scottish island (spelt Arran) or the Irish ones (Aran). Pronounced with a short 'a' and rhymes with Darren. The second syllable I think is universally ǝ, as it is in Darren.
 

---

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
Wild Haggis, you posted while I was writing my post.

I agree with you that English spelling is a mess, and I'm not dyslexic. However, I think there may be a reason, apart from habit, why it may have remained that way.

I get the impression that compared with some other languages, English is quite strongly stressed. In unstressed syllables, the vowel almost disappears. Quite often, that also changes the pronunciation of the consonants round it. This means that quite a lot of words which are entirely regularly formed out of other words by having prefixes or endings put on them, might not look all that similar to the root word if they were spelt phonetically.

After all, Welsh does spell the mutations correctly, but everyone I've ever known who has learnt Welsh has complained that they are really difficult.

Although English speakers think English doesn't inflect all that much, it does go in quite a lot for adding prefixes like 'un', 'non', 'anti' and suffixes like 'ly', 'ify' 'ation', and 'ition'. It also strings them together like 'ification', and 'ingly'.

I suspect that phonetic spelling might make writing easier, but would make reading harder. It would perhaps be easier physically to read the words aloud from the page, but it could make it quite difficult to understand them at the same time, or to read them silently. It might make it very hard to guess what an unfamiliar long word meant.
 

---

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
Among the papers I was grading today was one that was rife with spelling errors-- most of them homophones or near homophones-- to the tune of 7-8 per paragraph. I finally figured out the student must have written it on s tablet with autocorrect. Most hilarious was "chaotic church" for Catholic Church
 

---

Posted by aliehs (# 18878) on :
 
"chaotic church" ? As opposed to "messy church" ? which I see is on at my local Parish this Sunday at 9.30a.m.It's a family affair.


8 a.m. Eucharist here I come
 

---

Posted by wild haggis (# 15555) on :
 
Thank you Enoch. I agree with you. English does inflect.

Welsh mutations: some are phonetically logical but it's remembering to put them in orally! (Reminds me must go and do my daily Welsh diary to help me learn................!)

Spelling who needs it with texting nowadays anyway!!! So says my dyslexic son.
 

---

Posted by wild haggis (# 15555) on :
 
Bye the bye.
Enoch and anyone else in the area - did you feel the earthquack this afternoon?

Gosh talk about spelling - totally unintentionally (honest) I have written earth quack!!!!!
There you go spelling!
 

---

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :
 
Around Elizabethan times, English really was pronounced much closer to the way it is spelled, even though orthography hadn't really settled down at that point. The real problem for our age is the shift in pronunciation.

I guess there is no guarantee it won't go on changing, which raises the interesting point that even if we made it to be spelled phonetically accurate now, this discussion would nprobably have to take place all over again in 450 years time.
 

---

Posted by jacobsen (# 14998) on :
 
HRB, that is a cheeringly optimistic comment from one who lives in a universe which includes the Trump family.
 

---

Posted by aliehs (# 18878) on :
 
I think HRB must be right; that the language is constantly evolving. Our Australian Macquarie Dictionary lists the newest 100 words that now qualify for inclusion year by year, and a similar list of words whose usage has dwindled to nothingness. Most of the new terms appear to be tech related or derive from definitions as one man's stickers youth culture.
Already there are problems; but was ever thus.
 

---

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by wild haggis:
Bye the bye.
Enoch and anyone else in the area - did you feel the earthquack this afternoon?

Gosh talk about spelling - totally unintentionally (honest) I have written earth quack!!!!!
There you go spelling!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by geroff:
A bit of a tangent perhaps, but in the early days of spellcheckers I had a secretary, who was terrible at spelling, that used to add her spellings to the dictionary. Another colleague used to have to correct the dictionary every evening after she had gone home! (This is at a date when there was just one computer in our architects office, so probably 1988, Word Perfect?)

---

This sounds like the co-worker I mentioned in Post #26 -- only it was a parish office, not an architect. Maybe they're related. (It was in 1985-86.)

 

---

Posted by wild haggis (# 15555) on :
 
If you are dyslexic dictionaries aren't too much help. Spell checkers are much better.

I hate it when people judge you because you can't spell. It usually isn't your fault but to do with how your brain is wired.
...........................................

I'm always puzzled by people who say they know who English was spoken in Shakespeare's time. They didn't have recordings. How can we tell the audible sounds form the written? We can only guess and we might be very wrong.

Vowels are particularly bad as the same grapheme can be pronounced differently in different parts of the country.

Maybe we have discovered some magical recordings from Shakespeare's time!
 

---

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by wild haggis:
I'm always puzzled by people who say they know [how] English was spoken in Shakespeare's time.

---

People who know more about these things than I do can pick up hints of pronunciation by studying the plays. The way they're written can often indicate which words rhyme, which syllables are stressed, etc. Even his many puns tell us a lot. Obviously it's not 100% accurate, but the Bard did give us a lot of leads.

Oops! Bad thread for a misspelling!

[ 18. February 2018, 14:35: Message edited by: Pigwidgeon ]
 

---

Posted by Piglet (# 11803) on :
 
I suppose it's also possible that in Shakespeare's day pronunciation (and spelling) may have been more regional than it is today. Although he worked in London, would he have written his plays and poetry with a West Midlands accent?

I'm trying not to imagine To be or not to be sounding like someone from Crossroads ...
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by wild haggis:
Bye the bye.
Enoch and anyone else in the area - did you feel the earthquack this afternoon?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jacobsen:
I'm with Eutychus on the -ize/ise divide. Even my spell checker agrees with me. And "focussed" with a double s is logical, whereas "focused" is not.

But then, who said that English is a logical language?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hedgehog:
I stumble over describing my brother's daughter. "Niece" but I am likely to write "neice." Yes, I know the old "i" before "e" rule, but some words are weird. Or wierd. Whatever.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by M.:
'The rough coated dough faced ploughboy walked coughing and hiccoughing through the streets of Scarborough' is what I learnt.

I'm another who has always been quite good at spelling, and love the eccentricity of it. But I'm also* another who only learnt how to spell 'necessary' when I learnt the Latin!

M.

*which usually comes out as 'alos' when I type.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by balaam:
I needed the word practise. I never fail to get that one wrong.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gill H:
Or replace the word temporarily with ‘advice/advise’ which follows the same rules.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SusanDoris:
For English spellers there's a nice mnemonic:
practiCe = Noun; practiSe = Verb.
Take the C, N, S, V and they're nicely alphabetical!

---

© Ship of Fools 2016


UBB.classic^TM 6.5.0