Thread: Hell: Calling God to Hell Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Nunc Dimittis (# 848) on :
 
You'd better get down here NOW, you miserable squirming GIT of a being-creator-of-the-universe.

Why do you think you can just walk away? Huh? Why don't you answer when you're asked something?

What happened to the whole thing of a second chance?

Don't give me the Incarnation spiel - I know it very well. And I believe it. I don't know why, but I do.

What I patently don't understand is why you are such a pasty coloured mound of meringe up somewhere, so uninvolved, so back-turning and denying actually doing things...

Ok so I had a chance and I only realise in retrospect that I blew it. Why does my repenting make no difference to you? Why can't we go back to that point and take the other path? I don't want to go on in this path; it's only brought me misery and shown me that you are like CS Lewis' God of the Mountain in Till We Have Faces... conditions conditions conditions.

Impassive. They say you are impassive. Well in that case I suppose you won't give a flying one that I am complaining so bitterly right now. Oh don't go into the theological bollocks about it all. Impassivity being a term for XYZ features of the character of God radiradirah. No. I mean impassive as in a block of stone, the stone face, the expressionless void you turn to me when I try to run to you.

I don't have a choice, I can't stop believing in you because there is no other choice for me. But I can't stand this horribleness, the grey-porridge vagueness, the distance and emotional detachment. Why can't be we warm and vibrant and together?

Isn't that what relationship means? Not a relationship with the Bible (sometimes I feel so sick of being told to read it to find you that I want to shove it up the speaker's arse in the most painful way possible), not a relationship with my imagination. Not some kind of emotional self-blackmail, not a "nod-in-your-direction-on-a-sunday" relationship. A REAL relationship. Two beings being together experiencing each other, sighing, loving, crying, whispering, talking, laughing, the whole gamut of what it means for a human to have a relationship with another person.

I mean you advertise yourself as a person, so what do you expect? How else are we to envisage relationship? You give us this series of metaphors and say "this is only a pale imitation of what it's really like". I have plumbed the metaphors to great depths and you rejected me. What did I do wrong? Whatever I did I confess it and want to start over - why can't we? I don't know how else one is supposed to relate to you... What I do know is that how it is now is not nice, not beautiful, not close to you, but just grey sludge of which I have had enough. I don't want to wade through grey sludge to get to you. It's not supposed to be grey sludge - or if you are indeed promising us paradise in knowing you, I want a refund and I'd like to sue because you have lied. Why do you ask us to do impossible things? Like wading through sludge, like worshipping and adoring a cold stone God? No - not a cold-stone God, a God who advertises himself to be all warm and loving and caring and all, but is actually quite indifferent.

Look, you've been indifferent to me since I was little, when I first sought you. I have tried and tried and am at the end of my tether. I am bored of this wading, of not having any support, and tired of doing it all alone. I can't give you an ultimatum to get out of my life, but I am calling you here and complaining about how you relate to us because it is all so un-REAL, it's not the way you promise or the way it is advertised to be.

Ha! And the advantage of complaining here is that you can't give a response. Afterall, everything I say to you is met by indifferent silence, so I suppose one more flaming's not going to make a difference... You'll just take it like a martyr, and other people will worship you for it.

*sigh*

Let me cease to exist. Please? I hate being at the mercy of an indifferent God.

[ 15. May 2003, 19:00: Message edited by: Erin ]
 

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Posted by The Milkman of Human Kindness (# 7) on :
 
Wanna talk about it, Nunc?


 

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Posted by Merseymike (# 3022) on :
 
Not really sure what to say other that :

I echo Mikman's words, and...

I don't relate to the 'personal relationship' stuff and have come to the conclusion that God doesn't actually intervene directly other than through people, with all their faults. It meant a lot of changing the way I thought about God, but....

Maybe you could say a bit more, I can't promise to help, and there's nothing wrong with a bit of a rant, but....
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
Nunc has a point. I've wasted more years than I care to count looking for the Holy Grail, that elusive, numinous beauty that shines through the fog for a few brief, hauntingly enchanted minutes, then makes you discontented with everything else. What have I got to show for it? God doesn't care. He's never answered any of my prayers. He has no use for me. The few rare minutes you get to see him, there's no guarantee you will ever see him again. It could be years, it could be forever. Well, I'm disillusioned with it. Play hard to get if you want, I've had enough.

Why do we have to learn through pain? Why can't we learn through happiness? Why bother creating an imperfect species that spends its time apologizing for falling flat on its face when it can't help it? Why bother creating an imperfect species at all? What kind of a being is God?
 

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Posted by Raspberry Rabbit (# 3080) on :
 
I remember a rant in about 1985 in an Anglican church in British Columbia - the church empty except for me, the ranter - everything turning to shit around me. The problem and the substance of the rant:

All those precedents in the bible and church history where God came to rescue his people and why, oh why, did that situation not prevail right now.

All those promises of fellowship, strength, clarity of vision, etc - 'lo I am with you' (yeah, right!) which I was supposed to interpret and promote amongst God's people from the pulpit and they appeared not to be true.

The fact that if God were a parent someone would be quite justified in calling in the social workers to intervene. If he were a manager, the board of directors would be quite justified in firing him.

At least that's how I felt at the time.

I'm of the opinion that you have to mention the distance which exists between what has been promised and what is actually the case. I would go as far as to say that silence in the face of real or perceived non-fulfillment of his promises is non-faith and that one bitches precisely because one believes.

Do we remain stuck in the rant forever? Probably not, but that's not the point.

Raspberry Rabbit
Postmaster,
Ulan Bator, Mongolia
 

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Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
Though I may regret coming to Hell, I well understand Nunc's feelings, and shall continue in that mode:

Why do You seem to want to crush whatever I undertake, even when my motive was to live the gospel, not to mention serve Your Church?! Perhaps I could deal with some of my misfortune better was it caused by my committing some terrible sin - but most of it stemmed from genuinely trying to 'do for these least of my brethren.'

Oh, I know I'm supposed to meditate on your Passion - but that no longer works. (When you were my age, you were long dead!) I know your sufferings were horrible, but they lasted about 3 days! How would you have liked to have a much longer life, failing at everything you undertook for the Church, acting with love and being misinterpreted and treated with cruelty, shivering with fear at what else is going wrong or shall soon?

I remember well, from childhood, when the buzz words were 'offer it up.' Well, I'm damned sick of 'offering it up.' I'm all alone, aching, knowing I believe every word of your revelation and wondering why. It's all a game - a "Pollyanna" game of pretending nothing matters. I beg you to help me, just for some relief, some support, but I'm just supposed to pretend "your grace is enough for me."

I have known people who are cruel, self-absorbed, avaricious, sometimes even wicked (and You know what I mean... I'm not talking about the common weakness of humanity), yet there have been places in the Church where they were valued. All I have from You is rejection! Way out there, there is some dim, imperceptible business called "God's will." We cannot know what it is... all we know that it usually involves rejection. I'm damned sick of a life filled with "it wasn't God's will."

(The rest I shall not post, since it is too personal... but I don't know why I'm even praying to You. Perhaps I'm trying to placate You, fearful you'll harm me all the more. Or are you punishing me because, even what I wanted was simple and good - a chance to use talents for your Church - you are angry that I wanted more than I have? Or are you making a worm of me because you love giving us suffering and humiliation so much?)
 

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Posted by coffee jim (# 3510) on :
 
I don't even believe in You - I'd love to, but I'm scared you'd just be a comfort blanket...and not a very good one at that. I've just started doing the kind of job You're supposed to approve of - working with/for the homeless - and it depresses the hell out of me. I've been closer to tears than I've been for a very long time. If things don't improve, or if I can't stick it out long enough to find a satisfying job elsewhere, I don't know what I'll do. And considering what you haven't done for the people I work with, who are just as deserving as anyone else.... If you met the kind of fate depicted in 'The Second Coming' I'd be very pleased.
 

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Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
And what in Hell were you talking about, with that 'consider the lilies of the field' business? Your children die in the street every day!

Looking over every part of the scriptures, it seems that all you want your people to do is look for the puzzle! Old Testament patriarchs wondering what would come of the covenant - later OT figures waiting for the Messiah - New Testament ones trying not to mind that the world had not changed with your resurrection, but believing that your full glory (and a little peace for this horrible world!) was at hand - and, then, the final "let's try to make sense of this" in believing that everything was only half fulfilled - it would all work out at the Last Judgement.

Truth does not win! Some people die in prison for crimes they did not commit. Good people have their reputations ruined, and those who calumniated them are believed - even when one would think there was sufficient proof of the goodness for no one to believe the calumny.

What is it with You? Do you enjoy seeing your children begging You for help, then tossing them aside with being indifferent? Do you honestly think that this miserable world is any less so because of some remote promise of eternal bliss after we die?
 

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Posted by Jesuitical Lad (# 2575) on :
 
God's not your errand boy. Read Job.
 

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Posted by coffee jim (# 3510) on :
 
Don't tempt me to 'do a Perfecta', JL.
 

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Posted by ChrisT (# 62) on :
 
Jesuitical Lad; sensitivity is not hard to come by. Sometimes it just means shutting the hell up.

Now to continue.

When was 'too late'? Why do you say so many things (allegedly) then fail spectacularly to even make an effort to help fulfil them? You know I did what was asked, more than anyone expected me to, more than I ever thought I could, but it still wasn't enough. What was the point in all that went before? Shit, you could have stopped all this years sooner and saved so many people so much heartache. Now it's hit the fan and it's not just me that will suffer for the rest of my life. leaving me out of it, did you really want them to go through this?

I begged, I pleaded, I cried. I embraced lows I never knew could exist. I offered you everyting, anything, just asking one thing in return. But that wasn't good enough. Maybe I'm not good enough, maybe you just let this happen to prove what a piece of crap I am. Happy now? If there had been any positive at all then maybe, just mayebe, I would be able to handle this. But as time goes on all I see is the black chasm continuing for ever, and any points of light fading quickly like worn-out candles in a great cave.

I don't know what you expect from me now, I'm damned if I do and I'm damned if I don't. Ten years thrown away, and next to nothing to show for it - nothing that I can hold on to anyway. And the worst thing? This will only get worse - the real hard bit is still to come. It makes me crushed inside just thinking about it. Thanks for nothing.
 

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Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 
Oh that you would tear open the Heavens and come down.
 

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Posted by Jesuitical Lad (# 2575) on :
 
ChrisT,

My apologies. I suppose I've just never had much time for self-indulgent behaviour. I'll try to be more "sensitive" in future.
 

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Posted by Erin (# 2) on :
 
Jesuitical Lad, do you have any idea what the people who've posted on this thread are going through in their personal lives?
 

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Posted by Jesuitical Lad (# 2575) on :
 
Erin,

Well, I know one poster has already trashed the concept, but I was brought up to offer up suffering and unite it to the Cross - the same Cross on which God made man was willing to undergo an agonising death. I think there's something profoundly sick about using personal suffering as a basis for petulant blasphemy.

That said, perhaps I'm too sensitive for this thread. If anyone wants to take issue with anything I've said, PM me. I won't be reading any more posts here.
 

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Posted by Qestia (# 717) on :
 
Psalm 10

quote:

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O Lord, why do you stand so far away?
Why do you hide when I need you most?
Proud and wicked people viciously oppress the poor
. . .
These wicked people are too proud to seek God
They seem to think that God is dead
Yet they succeed in everything they do

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quote:

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(1) O God, why have you rejected us forever?
Why is your anger so intense against the sheep of your own pasture?
. . .
(9) We see no miraculous signs
as evidence you will save us

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quote:

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Has the Lord rejected me forever?
Will he never again show me favor?
Is his unfailing love gone forever?
Have his promises permanently failed?
Has God forgotten to be kind?
Has he slammed the door on his compassion?

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The above are from the "New Living Translation". I could go on.

Are the psalms petulant blasphemy, JL? I hope that statement is not worthy of you. It's certainly not worth me taking time to PM you.

In The Screwtape Letters CS Lewis says God's best beloved sometimes have to go through the deepest troughs. That what He likes best is when you look around and see no indication of His prescence, and still do His will. I have some idea from my time spent on the Ship how faithful the people who have posted above are. I'm sure God knows better than I.
 

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Posted by Merseymike (# 3022) on :
 
Blasphemy ?

That must mean saying things as we find them, not sticking to some ludicrous, unbending dogma.
 

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Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
There's a good reason that Buddhism posits a non-personal God, folks.

However, being merely human myself, one of my other mottos is "If you haven't ever yelled at God, you don't really know God."
 

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Posted by thegreent (# 3571) on :
 
Nunc

Youve put into words something so similar to how I feel. - I'm entering into hell far too much now...!!!!

wibble
 

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Posted by Nunc Dimittis (# 848) on :
 
And he's big enough, he should be able to understand and cope with it. Or if not, he's not worth knowing...

For many of us, *anything* would be good, even God's appearance in a storm to wipe us out (pace Jesuitical Lad - at least God actually SPOKE with Job).

I had no idea I was hitting on a raw nerve in ranting as I did. I see my experience is not unique. All who have this experience of walking in the greyness have my profound sympathy.

Wood, I think I said about all I am able to say. Although maybe I should clarify: "Let me cease to exist" was not meant literally. I was reflecting: there's nowhere we can escape from God, nowhere he isn't. Except in non-existence. In some sense not to exist would be preferable to enduring the hardness of an indifferent God, the loneliness of a grey world and the staleness of our own selves. Death is no release. But we can't cease to exist unless God wills it.

*sigh*

Ariel is right. Those glowing moments, the tasting and seeing that God is good, and his fruit sweet to the taste... And then being cast out to wander to search for it all our days. Why?

Like the White Witch in The Magician's Nephew, we taste that fruit and are never the same, but are wounded, knowing "our hearts are restless until they find rest in thee [God]" - and yet never finding that promised rest. What are we doing wrong? What should be be doing? If you have ever walked this path you will have tried everything, often persevering for months or years to no avail.

Cold comfort to think of Job, who was "tested" and in the end (after how long, a year? two years?) had everything restored to him fourfold.

See it's not like one is able to give up belief. You can't help yourself believing. God is just there. And it's not like you don't believe all the stuff you're supposed to believe about him, about him being love and merciful and so on, and the Incarnation etc. It's that none of that makes an impact in the relationship between the soul and God - and therein lies the grief and sorrow. And the bitterness of being human.
 

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Posted by kenwritez (# 3238) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by jlg:
However, being merely human myself, one of my other mottos is "If you haven't ever yelled at God, you don't really know God."

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YES! Amen and amen, jlg!

I love God (and I mean more than just warm fuzzy feelings) but I'm also pissed at him. I have every expectation He and I will continue hashing things out, albeit with much arm waving and raised voice from me.
 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
What a wonderful idea for a thread!

I've been sitting here telling God, "see? see? It's NOT just me!"

JL, we're people in pain, crying out to God. We're not being self-indulgent. We've tried to hold onto faith during very tough times, and have hit a point where the packaged answers aren't good enough--not for us, not for the rest of Creation.

There's a good old movie called, "Sally & St. Anne". Sally is a tough Irish-American schoolgirl, devoted to St. Anne. (Mary's mom) At one point, she marches into church and yells at St. A's statue, because her prayer wasn't answered. A couple of nuns overhear. One says, "what impudence!" The other says, "what faith!"

Food for thought, JL.
 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
Originally posted by Nunc Dimittis:
All who have this experience of walking in the greyness have my profound sympathy.

Ditto.

Although maybe I should clarify: "Let me cease to exist" was not meant literally.

Good. I was going to ask.

I was reflecting: there's nowhere we can escape from God, nowhere he isn't. Except in non-existence. In some sense not to exist would be preferable to enduring the hardness of an indifferent God, the loneliness of a grey world and the staleness of our own selves. Death is no release. But we can't cease to exist unless God wills it.

Ah, yes. That lovely point of "can't live, can't die, don't know if there's anything if I die, just want the pain to stop."

Cold comfort to think of Job, who was "tested" and in the end (after how long, a year? two years?) had everything restored to him fourfold.

Indeed. Not to mention losing his kids, livestock, servants. What did any of them do wrong???

 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by golden key:
What a wonderful idea for a thread!

I've been sitting here telling God, "see? see? It's NOT just me!"

JL, we're people in pain, crying out to God. We're not being self-indulgent. We've tried to hold onto faith during very tough times, and have hit a point where the packaged answers aren't good enough--not for us, not for the rest of Creation.

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golden key--same here! same here!

I don't want to get all Kergymania in here, but isn't there a verse in Revelation about the souls of believers gathering at the throne of God and groaning for justice? Seems like God is prepared for this. Seems like his followers should be, too JL. If they want to help God out.I think openeing up like this gives up a wonderful opportunity to take comfort in each other.

And Erin--thanks for soaring in and championing the brokenhearted.(Forgive me, but-- )
 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
And Erin--thanks for soaring in and championing the brokenhearted.(Forgive me, but-- )

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Ditto!
 

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Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
About a hundred years ago, I was in a Christian Goth band - we were all manic depressives and formed partially as an antidote to the likes of Graham Kendrick and Sir Cliff with their 'smile Jesus loves me' crap - Matt Black was my nom de guerre back then. Many of our lyrics were in the vein of the Psalms of Dereliction and, if I may be so bold as to quote from one of my songs, 'Deadbeat' (as I own the copyright ), that pretty much summed up how I was feeling then, and is still often true today:-

"Can't be bothered to live, can't make the effort to die/ Suicide's too hard, I just don't want to try/ Death is too final, there's no turning back/ But there has to be cure for what it is that I lack"

And, JL, take a hike

Yours in Christ

Matt

PS Many thanks to Erin and Hooker's Trick for helping me back into the saddle after some bastard scrote nicked my computer
 

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Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :
 
Matt Black eneded his last post with this gracious PS:

quote:

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PS Many thanks to Erin and Hooker's Trick for helping me back into the saddle after some bastard scrote nicked my computer

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quote:

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Originally posted by Qestia:
Psalm 10

quote:

---

O Lord, why do you stand so far away?
Why do you hide when I need you most?
Proud and wicked people viciously oppress the poor
. . .
These wicked people are too proud to seek God
They seem to think that God is dead
Yet they succeed in everything they do

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Psalm 74

quote:

---

(1) O God, why have you rejected us forever?
Why is your anger so intense against the sheep of your own pasture?
. . .
(9) We see no miraculous signs
as evidence you will save us

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Psalm 77:7-9

quote:

---

Has the Lord rejected me forever?
Will he never again show me favor?
Is his unfailing love gone forever?
Have his promises permanently failed?
Has God forgotten to be kind?
Has he slammed the door on his compassion?

---

The above are from the "New Living Translation". I could go on.

Are the psalms petulant blasphemy, JL? I hope that statement is not worthy of you. It's certainly not worth me taking time to PM you.

In The Screwtape Letters CS Lewis says God's best beloved sometimes have to go through the deepest troughs. That what He likes best is when you look around and see no indication of His prescence, and still do His will. I have some idea from my time spent on the Ship how faithful the people who have posted above are. I'm sure God knows better than I.

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quote:

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Try this experiment: Stand up tall and erect. Look up towards the ceiling and put a huge silly grin on your face. Remember a time when you felt really good. Hold the position for 10 seconds, then without changing your posture, try and feel depressed. You won't be able to do it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad:
Erin,

Well, I know one poster has already trashed the concept, but I was brought up to offer up suffering and unite it to the Cross - the same Cross on which God made man was willing to undergo an agonising death. I think there's something profoundly sick about using personal suffering as a basis for petulant blasphemy.

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quote:

---

That said, perhaps I'm too sensitive for this thread. If anyone wants to take issue with anything I've said, PM me. I won't be reading any more posts here.

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Perhaps he is, though he hides it well. I can't see anything resembling basic human sensitivity, let alone anything resembling a Christlike sensitivity in anything he's contributed to this thread so far.

As for not returning to see the effect of his posts? Well, of course he won't be back. We all know that people who flounce childishly out of rooms, in order to have the last word, never succomb to the temptation of creeping back, and putting an ear to the door, just to find out what the others are saying.....
 

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Posted by Merseymike (# 3022) on :
 
I can't think of a worse advertisement for the Roman Catholic Church than JL.
I'm not anti-Catholic at all, I do plenty of ecumenical work, and often I feel I'm very much at one with the Catholics there, but they are nothing like JL. Indeed, I passed copies of his posts to one of them, who laughed out loud and immediately said 'Opus Dei. Worth avoiding!'

I think there's a total lack of ability to empathise or look into any human dimension which doesn't coincide with his dogmatic outlook.
 

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Posted by ChristinaMarie (# 1013) on :
 
Probably because you're changing your posture without realising. I would have to be there and observe.

It's difficult trying to get this message across in a post. I showed Donna about this, just over a week ago. A few days later, she was depressed at work, things aren't too good at the moment. She remembered our conversation, and demonstration, noticed her posture was in the depressed position, then changed it. She's not been depressed since, because she does it every time she begins to feel depressed, and nips it in the bud.

You need to remember something in your past, or imagine something wonderful in your future, and FEEL wonderful. It's no use looking up at the ceiling in a half-hearted way. You gotta get excited, then do it.

Mind you, if I've given the correct instructions, and you've followed them properly - I cannot judge because I'm not there - you've changed yor emotional state from a good one, to a bad one, haven't you? You made the effort to get from a state of feeling good, to a state of feeling bad. How did you do it?

For me, I would have to make the effort to change my FOCUS on a happy memory and feeling, to a dark one, or something really negative about the world.

It can work the other way round too.

After a severe psychotic breakdown in 98, which left me without the ability to work, on meagre benefits, loss of accomodation in London, meaning I was trapped in Oldham, where I didn't want to be, I had suicidal thoughts from April to October every single day. One day, I decided to do it, I actually planned it. Fortunately, someone noticed I was looking down, and I broke down in tears. I got admitted to a psychiatric ward.

While there, I changed my focus. I accepted my worse-case scenario, that I could be in and out of psychiatric wards for the rest of my life. I then worked out what I would do, if that happened. I realised that if I never got to the point where I was well enough to work again, I could still contribute by doing voluntary work when able. I started counting the smallest blessings. My welfare may not be much, but at least I'm blessed with living in a country with a benefit system. I thought of people suffering the same things, and people worse off. I've never lacked for food, for example. By changing my focus, I got out of the suicidal thoughts, until last year.

Last year was the worst for me. I suffered severe depression for a lot of it. I don't want to go through that again. I'm determined to find out every way to defeat the beast for myself, and also for others suffering it.

Christina
 

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Posted by Erin (# 2) on :
 
Well, I think God is big enough to handle all the shouting in the world. So I'm not too bothered about people yelling at him. It does perturb me, though, when people get offended on God's behalf, because that way lies the Crusades, the Inquisition and any number of nasty bits in the history of Christendom.

Then again, I'm sure JL would regard me as blasphemous, too, because on more than one occasion I've told God to light a fire under it and fix whatever problem I'm facing. I've even done a bit of Teresa of Avila in there -- on more than one occasion I have let God know in no uncertain terms that it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out why people think he doesn't exist. I am not particularly nice, awestruck or reverential in my conversations with the Almighty. And it works for me, because there are times when I know his answer is "well, smart ass, knock yourself out, let's see you do a better job than me".

We need to be honest with God. By pretending everything is smiles and sunshine we are not only lying to God, but also we are insulting him. Do you really think he's so petty that he can't take some ranting and raving? That's a human limitation, not divine. It's YOUR problem if it bothers you, not God's.

I also have to say that in light of the background of one of the posts on this thread, the advice to "realize the problem lies with you" is not only the most cold-hearted, erroneous, steaming pile of corn-infested pigshit I've ever heard, but it is INCREDIBLY DAMAGING AS WELL. I'm just stunned.
 

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Posted by Lou Poulain (# 1587) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Merseymike:
I can't think of a worse advertisement for the Roman Catholic Church than JL.
I'm not anti-Catholic at all, I do plenty of ecumenical work, and often I feel I'm very much at one with the Catholics there, but they are nothing like JL. Indeed, I passed copies of his posts to one of them, who laughed out loud and immediately said 'Opus Dei. Worth avoiding!'

I think there's a total lack of ability to empathise or look into any human dimension which doesn't coincide with his dogmatic outlook.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ChristinaMarie:
Bloody Hell! Don't the Psalms agree with the sentiments on this thread, when they are very carefully snippeted! Try reading the whole Psalm, from these examples, you'll find the Psalmist did not stick with these feelings (which should be expressed, not buried) but moved on!

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quote:

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You need to remember something in your past, or imagine something wonderful in your future, and FEEL wonderful. It's no use looking up at the ceiling in a half-hearted way. You gotta get excited, then do it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad:
God's not your errand boy. Read Job.

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quote:

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Bloody Hell! Don't the Psalms agree with the sentiments on this thread, when they are very carefully snippeted! Try reading the whole Psalm, from these examples, you'll find the Psalmist did not stick with these feelings (which should be expressed, not buried) but moved on!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad:
God's not your errand boy. Read Job.

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quote:

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I am not particularly nice, awestruck or reverential in my conversations with the Almighty. And it works for me, because there are times when I know his answer is "well, smart ass, knock yourself out, let's see you do a better job than me".

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Originally posted by ChristinaMarie:

Perhaps God wants us to realise that 'Life is Difficult', but He's given us the resources to deal with our problems and challenges? The problem with many churches, I believe, is that they foster a child mentality in people. Learned helplessness.

It's my conviction that God is far more interested in our personal and spiritual growth, than our comfort. Have you read that verse in Hebrews? 'God chastens and scourges every son he receives. If you're not chastened you're bastards, not sons.'

If you're suffering, and it's getting you depressed, try changing your focus. Stop taking the blessings in your life that you take for granted, for granted. :-)

If you want to help the homeless, by the way, one thing you could do, is focus on what the person could become in the future, with your help. If you concentrate on the negatives, you'll end up giving up the job, what use is that?! I've worked with homeless young people.

Look: You have a choice. You can either live your life in enslavement to your emotions, and Thing is, that's my fault. It's my responsibilty to use my God-given mind to accept truth and reject error.

Perhaps God has already given you the answers to your problems, but you're not acting upon it?

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Has he now? Do you really believe God always gives us the resources to deal with our problems and challenges?

Try telling that to the mentally ill who aren't as blessed as you - who are still in the streets, or who don't have access to your nice medications and learned "focusing" exercises. Or to the ones for which these tactics don't work.

Try telling that to the sick and starving in third world countries. Or your own neighborhood, for that matter. To those in intractible physical pain with no access to morphine or a physician's care.

What if you have NO blessings in your life? Don't be so sure everyone has any to count.

And as far as having the homeless focus on what they can become in the future, I'll be sure to keep this in mind. Is this like when they're in heaven, or what?

I tend to agree quite strongly with Newman's Own's question:

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And what in Hell were you talking about, with that 'consider the lilies of the field' business? Your children die in the street every day!

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I have pondered this thorny issue some myself even when thinking of my sister. She should be a lily of the field, if the promise would be true for her to be looked after.
 

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Posted by Erin (# 2) on :
 
Pyx_e, I don't think I was as clear as I could have been. I don't always tell God what a butthead he is, there are times when I literally fall to my knees in adoration and thanksgiving. However, when I feel like telling him off, I do. And he seems okay with that. At least, I haven't been hit by lightning (and in a bizarre twist, Erin Etheredge was fried to a crisp even though there wasn't a cloud in the sky when she left work this afternoon. Film at 11. ).

I think we only really need to worry about the so-called "blasphemers" when they start climbing clocktowers and picking off priests, ministers and churchgoers with a high-powered rifle. Until then, comfort people when they need comforting. That's all we've ever been told to do.
 

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Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 

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Originally posted by golden key:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
And Erin--thanks for soaring in and championing the brokenhearted.(Forgive me, but-- )

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Ditto!

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Originally posted by ChristinaMarie:
If you're not free, then there's some falsehood in your mind. Usually, it comes in the form of half-truth. A good example of this, is 'we're all sinners.' If you just see yourself as a sinner, you'll act like one. We need to see ourselves as the images of God too. What did Jesus mean when he said, 'Ye are gods.' ???

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quote:

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Perhaps God wants us to realise that 'Life is Difficult', but He's given us the resources to deal with our problems and challenges? The problem with many churches, I believe, is that they foster a child mentality in people. Learned helplessness.

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quote:

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It's my conviction that God is far more interested in our personal and spiritual growth, than our comfort. Have you read that verse in Hebrews? 'God chastens and scourges every son he receives. If you're not chastened you're bastards, not sons.'

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As far as God being impassionate is concerned, I believe that is total theological bullshit. It's a result of mixing Greek philosophy about the Absolute, with the God of the Bible.

If God is Love, how can He not care. That's apathy! Apathy is the opposite of love, not hate. A loving person will hate injustice for example, they won't lack in care.

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If you're suffering, and it's getting you depressed, try changing your focus. Stop taking the blessings in your life that you take for granted, for granted. :-)

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If you want to help the homeless, by the way, one thing you could do, is focus on what the person could become in the future, with your help. If you concentrate on the negatives, you'll end up giving up the job, what use is that?! I've worked with homeless young people.

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As someone who suffers manic depression, an incurable illness, the last thing I would want if I was suffering depression, is someone sympathising with me. That's the least useful thing to do, next to 'pull your socks up!' attitudes. What I'd desire, is someone who could take the time and trouble to empathise, and then, to try and make things better. Sympathy just leaves a person depressed, and actually encourages the person to stay depressed.

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I remember one occasion when a guy I knew well, who also suffered manic depression, was depressed and angry with God, because he'd been deluded with religious delusions, including the 'I am Jesus Christ' one. I talked with him for a bit, then I cracked, 'You're older than me, tell you what, you be the Father, I'll be the Son!' That got him out of his depression, once he'd stopped roaring with laughter. Note: it wouldn't work if I didn't suffer the same illness.

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Did you know that your body posture changes with regard to what state of mind and emotions you are in? If you're depressd, usually you look down, your shoulders are slumped. Your physical state of posture changes into its depressed posture.

Thing is, it works the other way round too. If you decide to change your posture, to your posture when you're feeling really good ( you may have to remember a time when you felt really good, to find out your posture) the feelings follow.

Try this experiment: Stand up tall and erect. Look up towards the ceiling and put a huge silly grin on your face. Remember a time when you felt really good. Hold the position for 10 seconds, then without changing your posture, try and feel depressed. You won't be able to do it.

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Look: You have a choice. You can either live your life in enslavement to your emotions, and circumstances, or you can gain control of your emotions. Emotional states such as depression result in a big black cloud in your mind, that filters out the solutions to your problems, or challenges. Blaming God, you know deep down, isn't the truth. I know you feel that way, and that's okay, and I practise venting my bad feelings to God, but I always know that the problem is with me, really. Perhaps some half-truth I've swallowed from some Christian leader. Thing is, that's my fault. It's my responsibilty to use my God-given mind to accept truth and reject error.

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Some other things that can lead to depression are : diet and lack of exercise. If I feel like shit, I ask 'what am I eating?'. Certain foods will not supply all the vitamins and minerals you need to be well. Lack of physical activity doesn't help matters either. Don't complain to God IF you're on a junk diet, and you're living a life without exercise. Note: I'm not saying all depression is caused by these things, it's just a checklist from my own experience.

Perhaps God has already given you the answers to your problems, but you're not acting upon it?

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Here's a verse that has helped me enormously when I've been suffering badly, even though I haven't seen at the time, how it could be true, I just about managed to have some faith that it may be true, and sought to learn from my experiences. 'All things work together for good, for those who love God.' You can either dismiss this promise, or use it to build up some hope, pray about it, challenge God about it, etc. I now know it is true. I didn't then.

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Nunc: Do me a favour? Eat some chocolate for me. I'm trying to cut back for the sake of my complexion, but I really miss it's soothing effect. Perhaps just knowing that somewhere out there some chocolate was being demolished would make me feel a little bit better.

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ROFL. Rook, unfortunately I renounced chocolate last year (serious chocolate anyway) so I can't follow your suggestion... I am slowly savouring the wonderful stuff Kelly Alves kindly sent my way - but no such thing as eating it as comfort food now. At least, Weightwatchers tries to discourage comfort food eating...

So Chorister, I hereby nominate you as the Official Chocolate Demolisher for all those who suffer from Existential Angst (or the Absence of God).
 

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Posted by JimT (# 142) on :
 


Sorry I've taken so long to get back to you, Nunc. I had to make a supernova in Andromeda yesterday and the trip through the wormhole was brutal.

The crux of the problem here is that the Bible leads some of you to believe that I am a person. I'm not. I didn't really walk with Adam in the Garden of Eden, nor did I speak to Moses out of a burning bush, nor do I have a personal relationship with born-again Christians like George Bush.

This is the truth: I am the Good that you can seek if you choose to, in spite of all the Evil there is.

I just am. Evil just is. I "can't" get rid of it any more than gravity can get rid of light or vice versa. It's not a matter of "can't." It's a matter of "doesn't." You are the one who "does" or "doesn't." I simply "am."

You have an eye for the light of Truth and a sense for the warmth of Love. At times Truth is only a tiny dot and Love is so far away that you can't feel it. When you see the light of Truth, start walking in that direction. You'll find others, with whom you can share Truth and Love. Don't be surprised if lots of them are Christians but don't be shocked if some aren't. You should start to feel the warmth from the light around the time you meet other seekers. The closer you get to the light, the less darkness there will be. Someday, nothing but light. Pure light.

I'll meet you there. Nice chatting.


 

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Posted by eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
Among the dust of death on this thread, there is gold.
 

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Posted by OutOfTherapy (# 4081) on :
 
I've been reading this thread for the last few days though I'd been posting connected ideas in the 'p**d off with God' thread in Purgatory. At first this hell thread seemed less accessible to me, because people were addressing God and I'm barely speaking to him. I find it easier to bitch and complain to others than to question the Almighty, also you never know if some well-meaning Shipmate will answer for him.

Amen to Sean D saying...

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The Psalms are a mixture, like human lives and emotions. Some perk up at the end, but by no means all. Psalms 60, 74, 88 and 137 do not, for example.

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And I'm glad other people challenged ChristinaMarie, I couldn't easily articulate the range of feelings so well summarised by Wanderer's post. Cheers.

I guess I don't expect God to appear and answer these complaints. Others have made the comparison with Job and he did seem satisfied in the end with God's lack of a direct response to his questions. Though maybe if you're suddenly welcomed back into God's obvious favour the questions melt into insignificance. Another key thing for me is how God was happy with Job's ranting - that it was the 'friends' he was displeased with.

Rant away at God, people, especially if it makes you feel better. I'm not sure what to recommend for those who have given up on that stage though. I think I'm too weary and just can't be a***d. It all seems too hopeless. F*** it.
 

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Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
I must say that this has become one of the most thought provoking, moving threads that I have seen on the Ship - and in Hell, of all places. Bear with me, since I am in sleepy mode today, but I have a few thoughts (and the expression is a bit wry).

I would say that, for many of us, it seems that God left us to merely hope for heaven later - and, if we've read the works of mystics and great theologians (who already had reached a point of unusual detachment by the time they took pen in hand!), it is easy to think (for example) that all God can bring is forgiveness (therefore a hope for union with him.) Well, heaven knows we all need forgiveness now and then, and are grateful for this, but the other side of this is wondering why one who, in his human life, performed miracles of healing (again, for example) but has no interest in easing the pains of this earth now. It rather gives the impression that those miraculous acts were a mere advertisement for his greatness...

I am not about to give examples (for the sake of discretion), but, speaking from what I have seen in the lives of many who dedicated themselves to service, there can be enormous loss, suffering, even being the victim of criminal behaviour (or, at the very least, manipulation) in the process. Not to mention that many of the devout are actually quite innocent, and therefore perfect targets! It is possible, for example, to marvel at the wonderful trust in God and great detachment of another whose life has been unusually wicked... not realising that he actually has no conscience at all. It is only when one has been harmed in some way that one realises this!

As much as we can say (and firmly believe) that the Incarnation proves God works in creation, it seems very empty. We can speak of Jesus' ascension and our deification, and mean every word, but it becomes an abstract idea. We know we should believe that creation was transformed in Christ, yet it is hard to see how it is any better than it ever was.

I can well understand how easy it is to become involved in twisted perceptions of God (New Age, cults, whatever). There is some vague idea that God could indeed act in creation - if we could only find the proper formula by which to summon Him! (Yes, that sounds like conjuring - but the image of a remote, indifferent God who wants us only to think that heaven may be ahead, when we may have decades of misery to face first, can seem so heartless.)

(I would not include this had it not once been common.) During my convent training, we were taught never to complain, always to have a pleasant facial expression, to act remote in order to give the impression to others that we were 'recollected' in prayer, even to hide illness. Of course, there was a solid idea behind this - one does not inflict one's personal problems on those who one serves, much as a doctor does not recite his difficulties to his patients. But it went too far. We could not share pain, doubt, fear, etc., even with our own Sisters. We never had a normal conversation - about the only safe topics were the Foundress and Francis. We could not be real - lest we be accused of not 'setting a good example.' Sacrifices are a part of any life, but unnecessary actions were added just for the sake of being sacrificial.

Ultimately, the image one acquired was of a God who wants his followers to be constantly exhausted, unwell, etc. After all, happiness was for the next life. Never mind that the teaching Sister (actually kind and loving at heart) who was nasty to the children in the class acted in that fashion because she was totally exhausted, and that extensive common prayer required her to have little sleep. Rising before the crow was a 'sacrifice'!

One of the paradoxes that many of us face, I believe, is that we really want very little - and it seems that, directly as a result of trying to live the gospels, we get into deeper and deeper trouble! And then the further question arises - what of my own integrity? Could it be that I really was not seeking to follow Christ? In doing so, we contradicted what many people thought we should hold dear - were they the ones who were right?
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Hey, Nunc, my friend! (Polishes off a tasty bar of Cadbury's Flake which I have just bought).

I have also just bought a book called 'Dark Night of the Soul' by St. John of the Cross (16th century mystic) - it looks very good and is on a topic rather relevant to this thread.

A good book and an unlimited supply of chocolate.....mmmmmm......now I really have been transported to heaven. See you later, folks
 

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Posted by PaulTH (# 320) on :
 
I think the idea that this world's pains are to be endured, with a reward of heaven in the world to come has been used over the centuries, by the hierarchies of the Christian Church and Christian states to justify persecution and poverty. Th misery of starvation, war and disease with a pitifully short lifespan was the lot of the average medieval European. That the church should have sought to justify this is IMO partly due to the dualist nature of much Christian thought, present in St. Augustine, but finding it's summation in Puritanism.

The pslamist who shouts at God the way Nunc Dimittis and Newman's Own are doing is far closer to God than the stoic who accepts the misery of the world in hope of reward in heaven. This is because Christianity, unlike it's Jewish ancestor is too afterlife orientated. At best ant ideas about the world to come are speculative. At worst they may be misguided. The pre-exilic Jews had no clear cut ideas about an afterlife.

"No one remembers you when he is dead. Who praises you from his grave?"(Ps 6.5)

The essence of true faith is to cling to God in the present moment notwithstanding all the joy and woe of living on earth. Jesus said that "each day has enough trouble of it's own."(Matt 6.34) It's far more productive to rest in that faith than it is to look for a reward in a heaven we don't know much about. In spite of their agonies, from what they've said here, both Nunc and Newman's Own have immense faith and that will be salvific.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 

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Originally posted by RooK:

Nunc: Do me a favour? Eat some chocolate for me. I'm trying to cut back for the sake of my complexion, but I really miss it's soothing effect. Perhaps just knowing that somewhere out there some chocolate was being demolished would make me feel a little bit better.

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RooK, I don't care what you believe, you're going to Heaven for that one. "I mourned, and you offered me chocolate..."
 

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Posted by Arrietty (# 45) on :
 
When I was in the pit and God seeemed very far away - when it would really have been the easiest option just to stop believing in God, a lot easier than trying to make sense of how I felt within the context of the loving God I was told to believe in - I came across the butterfly as an ancient symbol of resurrection. I then read something about how a caterpillar turns into a butterfly. Apparently the caterpillar melts into a slush inside the chrysalis and eventually from that a butterfly is formed. This did not make me feel better but it gave me something to cling onto - a very very tiny glimmer of hope that the sense of disintegration I was undergoing was known to other Christians and just maybe would not carry on for the rest of my life getting worse and worse with only the prospect of stronger and stronger medication to look forward to.

My sympathies for all those who are there at the moment.

this web page contains a description of what I am talking about, as well as a lot of pictures of butterflies!
 

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Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
Arrietty

Thanks for the butterfly link. Here is the analogy that occurred to me when I was coming out of a bad time years ago.

If a block of marble had feelings, the work of the sculptor would hurt like hell and appear to be purely destructive. However, if the sculptor is good, the result will be beautiful.

My problem is that rather than undergo that pain, I would rather remain a shapeless block.

Moo
 

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Posted by Nunc Dimittis (# 848) on :
 
But you see Moo, the marble can't see and can't possibly comprehend what's going on - or even if there is a sculptor in some cases. Sometimes it's just like it's been left out in the weather for what seems like centuries...
 

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Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :
 
I can’t stop thinking about this thread. May I start by reiterating that I am in no way whatsoever casting any unsympathetic aspersions towards those who are at present going through the sorts of situations, in their lives, described in this thread. As I have said, I have been there myself and will no doubt be again.

During Mass this morning it came to me that my personal problem lies in the fact that, as a recovering alcoholic, my perception of this type of struggle both internal and external lies in two areas. Firstly I was taught early in AA to assume I was always wrong. In short for years the best thing I thought I could and should be doing was getting pissed and looking after number one. Therefore all my thoughts and feeling were fear and ego centered and hence ultimately destructive. So when sober or drunk I railed against God it was in fact me feeling sorry for myself and the pig awful situation I had got myself in to and from which I had to be willing (with God’s grace) to be extracted.

Secondly having “discovered” that the problem was mine and not God’s I had to ask myself was my anger helpful. I often found that in fact it was not. It was not because it bought me no nearer any form of solution. In fact if I was angry and resentful to God then I was building a wall between me and any form of salvation that was on offer.

Lastly, the whole point of AA and even the gospels is that to keep “it” (whatever “it” may be ; sobriety, salvation, hope, love……….) you have to give it away. And certainly I works in AA. The firm suggestion (any AA person can read suggestion as command here) is that when you feel at your worst , closest to drinking, insanity and overpowering fear go and find somebody who needs help, and help them. It flat works. I became a Christian because I see that same message through the gospel.

My gut wrenching, heart breaking, soul shaking conversion moment came upon reading this passage; “ Then he said to them all, If any want to become my followers, let them deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me. For those who want to save their life will lose it and those who lose their life for my sake will save it.” (Luke 9 23.24)

The stunning stupidity of me lies in the fact that I both seek and need Him and flee and fear Him, Lord have mercy.

Anyway, I once saw a tee shirt with a caterpillar looking up a lovely butterfly. The caption was “You can piss off if you think you are getting me up in one of those hang gliders.”

P
 

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Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
I appreciate Pyx_e's post, and find it quite impressive as well. However, I think there is a distinction I would care to note.

Several of my closest friends (and the few men with whom I 'went' before I was in consecrated life) were alcoholics, and I had a good deal of learning to do about letting them face the consequences of their drinking. Some would have 'blacking out' where they genuinely could not remember trouble they had caused.

I know I'm being simplistic here, but, as I understand (and I am open to correction), one problem quite characteristic of the disease is that alcoholics do not take responsibility for what they have done. My dearest friend (who died in my arms of cirrhosis ten years ago this month) always had 'reasons' he was drinking - he blamed others, blamed me, etc. - and, in the next breath, would insist he had not had a drink in years. Those I knew who did get away from drinking had to admit they were powerless, but at the same time take what for many, I imagine, was the first clear look at their own failings and how they had harmed others.

For many of us, in our spiritual lives, it is quite a different matter. I'm exaggerating a bit here, to make a point: If anything, we have been inclined to think we are responsible for nearly everything! We struggle with guilt (other than that for sin), wondering if we made the right choices, if our seeking to help others caused our predicament (and often it did - but we worry about our own integrity). We have been very responsible in our lives - in fact, often were more devout than we knew, and were harmed (possibly in ways we would not have been otherwise) because we assumed the good will of some very dangerous people we served.

I do not think pain should be written off as self-pity, and think it often is beyond dangerous to assume everything is our fault. Sometimes, we cannot forgive ourselves when, if we took a closer look, we would admit that many things were not our fault, and that, when people did dreadful, sometimes unspeakable, things to us in the course of our ministries, we were wrong to 'take the blame.'

This example may not be the best, but I include it because it is harmless. The practise in our convent was to always answer a sincere apology with "and I am sorry I provoked you." It did not matter if an argument was unprovoked, or if the other had been looking for an opening for the row for months - this was seen as an act of charity and also of humility (because it generally does take two to have such a problem.) Similarly, if we needed to tell a superior about a difficult incident which involved another Sister, we mentioned only our own fault - not that of the other - when she had her turn with the superior, she'd accuse herself. What many of us did not realise is that, while such actions can be very useful in a climate where everyone is seeking union with God and love of neighbour (however poorly), and where such actions are understood, they can create problems elsewhere. (Of course, superiors can trade on being 'always right,' but that is another topic.)

In ministerial work, at times when I was (often unknowingly) manipulated by the criminal element, I fell into the humble apology mode I'd been taught. I never could have seen that, in their eyes, this was only further proof of my weakness and capability for manipulation. And my actions were quite sincere - I wondered if I had failed in charity, or treated someone unjustly, etc. We so feared 'judging' that we were incapable of making factual judgements on which our safety could depend. We always blamed ourselves.

Love is in the will - it often has little to do with feelings - and we often are turning our wills towards honouring and serving God even when we feel the most anxious and bitter, though we do not recognise this at the time. But we need to remember that humility is truth, not abasement. Just recently, there was someone (not a criminal!) who treated me in a very rude, embarrassing, and inconsiderate fashion. I found myself being apologetic and all but begging forgiveness, wondering how he could not see his part in this... but that was convent training again, since I was showing respect for his priesthood.
 

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Posted by Martin PC not (# 368) on :
 
I will read all of this, but WOW! What a brilliant thread, self-righteous, naive, dim, clinically correct, insensitive prats like Jesuitical Lad and me and all!!

Of cause, in His omnipathy He AGREES! Feels it ALL. GROANS the groans of us His thoughts.

It WILL be ALL, all right in the end, forever. In the resurrection. See you there.

Who said that, wossername of Norwich, Dame Julian. Loony as she was, she was right. Absolutely right. Free will and grace WILL be experienced by all including us seeing it thru a glass darkly.

Every eye dried.

I doubt it too of course! Although I CANNOT disbelieve the incarnation. Thank God!

And I don't pray any more. Well once in a blue moon. And then I TELL Him! Half the time.

Will He find faith when He comes?

We've got to pray down New Jerusalem, annoy the unrighteous judge to justice!

This makes me manically cheerful, perhaps it's Him!

Perhaps He HAS answered, is answering.

Must have a fag or I'll start praying!
 

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Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
Martin,
No, I'm not going to lecture here on Julian of Norwich... but I do have one question.

Don't you ever have a fag during your prayers? Good heavens, I do!

NB Except for one of our friends on this thread who was agnostic, who denied the Incarnation or resurrection? I remember, in Morris West's book "The Devil's Advocate," the dying Blaise Meredith expresses pain similar to that on this thread - and asks God why He is so remote, puzzling that, when Thomas expressed doubt about Jesus' resurrection, he was invited to place his hands in the Master's wounds. (Another brilliant line from that book is one where Blaise has a doctor comment that his faith must be a great strength. When Blaise speaks of his uncertainty, the doctor says he is surprised - many other priests speak of death quite differently. Blaise responds that most of them have not yet had to face the reality.)
 

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Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 

quote:

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Firstly I was taught early in AA to assume I was always wrong. In short for years the best thing I thought I could and should be doing was getting pissed and looking after number one. Therefore all my thoughts and feeling were fear and ego centered and hence ultimately destructive. So when sober or drunk I railed against God it was in fact me feeling sorry for myself and the pig awful situation I had got myself in to and from which I had to be willing (with God?s grace) to be extracted.

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Pyx_e, that is appropriate when a person's sufferings are the result of their own behavior. However, sometimes Things.Just.Happen. The two worst events of my life both just happened. Neither I nor anyone else deliberately made them happen or foresaw them.

This means that nothing can be done to prevent such things in the future.

Moo
 

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Posted by ChristinaMarie (# 1013) on :
 
Erin wrote:

" also have to say that in light of the background of one of the posts on this thread, the advice to "realize the problem lies with you" is not only the most cold-hearted, erroneous, steaming pile of corn-infested pigshit I've ever heard, but it is INCREDIBLY DAMAGING AS WELL. I'm just stunned."

The context to my statement about the problem being with you, is when we are doing things like believing God is a liar, as expressed in the OP. I can confidently say that if someone believes that God is a liar, the problem does lie with them. Thing is, I'm not charging such a person with blasphemy, as JL did, in fact, I'm thinking of the psychological and spiritual effects that believeing God is a liar (even partially) has on a person. If I believed God was a liar, then the whole basis of my faith/trust and hope is smashed to pieces. That God cannot lie, is a foundational truth. Without it, everything topples. It could even lead to suicide, or killing people, in a worse-case scenario.

I'm not concerned about defending God's honour, because I firmly believe He's rather have us rant at Him sometimes, than ignore Him.

If we believe false things about God, then it affects us badly. A person needs to be challenged, not condemned, to re-think what they are believing. Not forced, just encouraged to reconsider. It's no use leaving someone in a pit, they may need some guidance on how to get out of it.

Any Christian who believes God is a liar, is already in a pit. They need to understand it, so they can find ways to get out. In my opinion, confirming someone's belief that God is a liar, is the cruellest thing to do. Not only does it not help them get out of the pit, it gives them justification to start digging deeper.

The exercises I posted earlier, have been misundertood by many, and that is my fault, because I should have been clearer.

I think of 2 types of depression.
1. The normal kind which is a state of mind and emotions.
2. Clinical depression. This is an illness, which shuts down one's functioning. It can get so bad, one cannot do anything.

I believe Clinical Depression does not start straight away, but is preceded by the normal kind of depression, which is a state of mind and emotions. It then gets worse, and becomes clinical.

From my research, the best type of treatment for clinical depression, is medication and psychotherapy. Now this is where I go back to my statement about not blaming others or one's circumstances, but also to blame oneself. I worded that poorly, I apologise. When I talk to myself about blaming myself, it's not a negative thing, it's neutral. However, it's an emotional word, that's best not used. I'm talking about assessing a situation, appreciating that someone else or something else is responsible, but also to recognise that we are responsible for our own actions, and also how we respond. This is the key that unlocks a person from falling into the same trap, time after time.

Rather than depression, let's use anger as an example. When I did an Anger Management course, there was a guy who used to beat up other guys, whenever they ribbed him (took the piss, in Northern talk) Now, growing up in the Northwest, and living as a male at the time, I can tell you that guys taking the piss out of their mates was commonplace. They didn't get into fights over it, but this guy did.

Thing is, he wasn't a nasty brute. In many ways, he was a really great guy. When he was told that he was responsible for his actions though, he would reply 'it was his fault!'. 'I can't help it!' Now, if you've experienced yourself getting really angry, it feels that way doesn't it? The problem is, unless you accept responsibility for the way you deal with your anger, you'll always do the same thing time after time, when provoked. This guy could end up in prison. When he finally accepted that his response to a provocation, was his responsibilty, and that there were ways to change his response, he was set free to change his behaviour.

If I remember rightly, he changed his beliefs. Instead of believing that guys shouldn't take the piss out of him, and that a guy did that deserved a good beating, he chose to accept that it was part of a guys culture. He decided to respond with 'Fuck off you daft bastard.' He wasn't a quick-witted guy who could come up with a witty retort, so he played 'Broken Record.' Other choices would include walking away and going to another pub.

Now, supposing you've just recovered from clinical depression, you've been to the Doctor and asked for the mediaction to be changed a few times, now you're on one that's working for you. Be aware, that any anti-depressant only works with a certain percentage of people. For others, it can have the opposite effect. Don't stick with a medication that isn't working. Do some research on the Net, check out what has worked for others. Join a support group, phone Social Services and see what they have to offer too.

Back to my point. You've got your feelings back, and things are getting better. Trouble is, suppose a trigger or provocation happens to you? You could well end up feeling bad again. Like the guy who was provoked to anger, you're being provoked to depression, because you have a disposition for it.

Here's the bottom line: If Clinical Depression and Bipolar (which I have) are just illnesses, why is Psychotherapy recommended as part of the treatment? The reason is, that there are contributions we make to our own depression (normal state) that are to do with our thinking, and our beliefs. Psychotherapy can help a client realise what thoughts and beliefs result in depression, and helps formulate new beliefs and thought processes, which help the client deal with the trigger, or provocation much better, so they don't end up depressed. It's not a case of curing the illness, but of managing it better.

A person who wants to change their angry behaviour, cannot do this while angry, neither can a clinically depressed person. You need to be stabilised first.

While in a stable state, then you can ask yourself 'what has to happen to me for me to get depressed?' 'How does another person have to treat me in order for me to get depressed?' etc.

One of my triggers, is overwhelm. If I'm faced with a big problem, or complex task I haven't done before, I can get overwhelmed, frustrated, then depressed. I give up. This can then lead to clinical depression, because I go further downhill by telling myself I'm a failure.

Once you've identifies the trigger, you can then work at changing your beliefs, and your approach, so that the trigger will not get you down again. First you have to assess your beliefs and your approach, then decide to change. You don't want the pain again, do you?

So with me regarding overwhelm. I realised that I had a tendency to expect too much of myself too soon. My self-talk said 'I'm never going to be able to do this!'

Now, I say to myself. 'I didn't learnt to drive the first time I got in the driver's seat, but I can now. All I have to do is improve myself a day at a time, and eventually I will have learned it.'

Or, with a personal problem, in fact 2 days ago I got a belated birthday card, which presents me with a huge problem that I've been putting off. There's no doubt I would be spiralling into depression right now, if I hadn't learned this new stuff I'm sharing. I don't have a solution right now, but I'm telling myself, 'There is a solution to this problem, and I can find it, though it may take some time, how can I deal with it?' Thing is, if you say this to yourself, your brain will worlk to find a solution. Guess what happens if you say to yourself, 'This is impossible for me to work out!' Your brain and subconcious goes to work in providing reasons to 'prove' it is impossible. Your brain backs you up, either to find solutions, or to justify that things are impossible.

Another useful concept I've learned recently is that of learning something or problem solving by role-modelling. First, believe this. Whatever situation you are in, others have experienced the same thing. Furthermore, there are others who have learned to overcome, or deal with by adapting, whatever problem you've got.

One thing that frustrates me, is computer problems. We had one a few days ago, we couldn't restore a backup file. This time, instead of getting frustrated, I decided to role-model. I thought, 'there must be other people who've had this problem.' I typed in "qic file" into google, found lots of hits, and on the 4th page I visited I found the solution to the problem.

Suppose I had a serious accident, and I ended up only being able to use my neck and head. I would check out what Joni has written, Christopher Reeve too. I would ask what attitudes andbeliefs they hold to that helps them get on with life, despite an enormous disablity. Role-modelling can save a lot of heartache. You can work things out for yourself, and that may take years. If you decide to look for a role model, you could find ideas, beliefs and attitudes, that make your life better, much quicker.

To re-iterate: I am not saying that people who are suffering deserve it. I am not blaming people for their suffering. I do firmly believe in the promise of the Bible that 'all things (including bad things) work for good for those who love God.'
You may not believe it now, but try to. If you can just move from total disbelief in this promise, to the hope that this verse will work out true, it may encourage you.

Golden Key: You said you understood I was trying to help, and I thank you for that. You also stated that you'd tried many things and were being realistic. You gave me the impression that you've now stopped trying. If that is so, let me ask this: which is more encouraging, and likely to produce a better result?

1. I've tried lots of things and none of them have worked.

2. I've tried lots of things and none of them have worked, but realistically speaking, I haven't tried everything, there could be a solution just round the corner, for all I know.

The concepts I've been sharing are from NLP, that is Neuro-Linguistic Programming. It's about identifying and changing one's conditioning, not positive thinking. The best teacher of it, plus some other useful stuff, is Anthony Robbins. Using his methods, I've gone from someone who kept trying and trying to exercise, but failing, to someone who exercises every day, apart from the odd exception, and enjoys it. If anyone is interested, contact me privately for more information.

Christina
 

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Posted by JimT (# 142) on :
 


God's not a Liar. Right. I am.

I am the one telling the truth! He is the one who is lying. I loved that little analogy that gravity can’t get rid of light. Well it can: it’s called a Black Hole. Gravity sucks the light in and it can’t get out. What does He have to say to that?

Why is so hard to see that everything is His fault? Doesn’t he say that He is the Creator? Doesn’t He say that He knows all, He has a perfect plan, He can be trusted, He can be relied upon? Trusted to what? Give you a load of crap to deal with in your life, that’s what! Relied upon to what? To test you to see if you’ll come forth as gold. Spare me.

He’s holding all the cards, making all the rules, and he blames me for everything that goes wrong. You know the truth: I’m as helpless as you are. My big crime was being the first one in the Universe to blow the whistle on him. I was the first one to spit out the words: He just couldn’t stand to make anyone equal to Him.

I’m not going to blow a lot of sunshine up your ass. The reason you’re not a movie star is the He didn’t make you good looking enough. The reason you’re not a Nobel Peace prizewinner is that he didn’t make you smart enough. The reason why you are suffering from unemployment and poverty is that he let other people be the sons and daughters of American industrialists and British nobility. He decided that for your own good you had to be born a plain, bright-but-not-brilliant, peasant. For what? So that you could end your suffering by taking up a cross and…suffering!

And people call me the Father of Lies?

Of course the Truth makes you mad. The problem is that he never shows up so that you can scream at him to His face. You end up believing that He must have some good reason for all this suffering and you are too stupid to see it. You then proceed to destroy yourself with drink or whatever is convenient.

Save yourself, the best way you know how. He’s not doing you any favors.




I hate it when he does that.

Let’s get the Physics analogy out of the way first. What I’m talking about is more like the electric and magnetic components of light: one gives rise to another, and they oscillate at 90 degrees to one another. You put me and a conscious being together and Evil is generated in a perpendicular plane. You can ride the ups and downs of the Good plane or the side to side of the Evil plane. Side to side is a lot easier than up and down. Something like that.

The sad part is that it is easier to have a personal relationship with Mr. Liar than it is with me. He’s right about one thing: he’s a lot more like you than I am. But that doesn’t mean he understands you better. Nor does it mean that he’s telling the Truth.

Don’t take his advice on anger. That’s one thing I’m going to beg of you. If you’re mad, you’ve got to find out why and you’ve got to get rid of it. Fully understanding the cause comes first, forgiveness in every direction comes second, release from guilt and shame comes third, resolve not repeat the error comes fourth, and finally cheerful acceptance of the likelihood that you will in fact fail some time in the future comes last.

Until I make you perfect. And I will, I promise. You will not be a “lesser” Being forever.

And you’re not too shabby just the way you are.


 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
Christina Marie said:


Golden Key: You said you understood I was trying to help, and I thank you for that. You also stated that you'd tried many things and were being realistic. You gave me the impression that you've now stopped trying. If that is so, let me ask this: which is more encouraging, and likely to produce a better result?

1. I've tried lots of things and none of them have worked.

2. I've tried lots of things and none of them have worked, but realistically speaking, I haven't tried everything, there could be a solution just round the corner, for all I know.


Christina,

I did us both a favor and composed this offline, rather than immediately responding.

Actually, what I said was:

But many of us have been trying all kinds of things for years, and they just haven't been enough. The things that did work have worn very thin, or broken altogether.

Sometimes, accepting reality and trying to feel happy just aren't enough.

No, I have not stopped trying. People who know me know that, and marvel that I haven’t. And I never said that nothing ever helped. I am constantly looking for ways to help myself. I’m very motivated to do what I can to change myself, change situations, etc. I’ve hung onto God, read the Bible (and yes, believed it), done tremendous amounts of other spiritual reading. I’ve knocked on many, many spiritual doors, Christian and otherwise. I’ve read self-help books. I’ve gone to workshops, retreats, and conferences. And many other things.

But there sometimes comes a point—which you evidently haven’t experienced—where you can’t change situations yourself, and all these ways of coping/growing/improving aren’t enough. Where you ask human beings for help, and don’t get it. Where you’re not sure of God’s existence or nature. Not just having the blues and feeling a bit sorry for yourself—but really, seriously, deeply questioning what God is like, and finding that the Official Truths just don’t ring true, or even make sense.

I think that’s one of the fundamental differences here: you’re working from a view that God’s love is a fundamental truth, always to be relied on, and any problems are on our end. We’re coming from a point where we’re so wounded that we’re not sure of that—and we’re asking God what’s up.
 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
JimT,

you bear a striking resemblance to George Burns! (of the "Oh God!" movies)


 

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Posted by ChristinaMarie (# 1013) on :
 
Hi Golden Key,

Thank you. I wrote what I did because I was concerned that you may have given up hope totally, I wasn't judging you, I just wanted to be sure and offer something that may help a person who had given hope. I'm sorry if I've offended you, I didn't mean to.

I have been there, when I came out of the Psych ward after 3 months, I couldn't understand why God would allow a Christian to suffer psychosis. I could understand God allowing physical things, but to allow one of his children to lose their mind, was beyond me at that time.

That was in 98.

I have an answer now, but I can't share it publically on a thread. I would by PM.

From April to Oct, I was plagued with suicidal thoughts every day, til one day I got myself admitted to the ward again, and managed to sort things out.

Between July 98 and Feb 17 (my birthday) I lost 3 friends to suicide. When I was 15, I believed there was no meaning to life, and I tokk over 60 tablets to kill myself. It wasn't a cry for help, I meant it. Fortunately, an hour or so later, I woke up vomiting.

So, I appreciate what you're saying about the 'seeming' hopelessness, and I agree with you. Thing is, I don't believe that some of the others are expressing a 'seeming' hopelessness, but a real one. I hope I'm wrong. One thing I know, I think anyone in a vulnerable state, could read some of the posts about real hopelessness, and decide to kill themselves.

It could have already happened. It's not just the posters who read these posts, but lurkers too.

One thing that I don't think has been mentioned, is Satan and the demonic. Paul, the Apostle wrote about 'the god of this world' and we wage war against spiritual enemies. If we leave this out of our thinking, we are more likely to blame things on God, that the Devil may actually be responsible for. 'Resist the devil and he will flee from you.' If one doesn't believe in the Devil, it's pretty hard to resist him. If the Devil is real, and is responsible for lots of evil in our world, he must be laughing his socks off when Christians blame God, for things he and his cohorts are doing.

The subject of people suffering in Africa has been brought up in response to my posts. Now, my posts have been addressed to people who have Internet access, and are able to communicate on the thread, and lurkers.

People often say that they don't believe in God, because either He doesn't exist, or if He does exist, He's a bad one. This is the position of my family.

I believe that on the Day of Judgement, God will show that the Earth has abundant resources to feed everyone. The thing is, human selfishness means we don't share. That's one reason. The other reason is war. Starvation is caused by wars in a lot of cases. Now, how is this God's fault?

Also, I firmly believe that those who've suffered terribly, will reap an eternal reward. As Martin stated, it will make sense in the end.

Furthermore, those who have lived in luxury, and not done anything about the suffering, will spend an eternity in a much lesser position than those who have suffered, because of their selfishness.

I do not believe Hell is everlasting, but there will be degrees of reward, as well as punishment, and those who live their lives without caring, will spend eternity with a much lesser reward, in fact no reward at all. They will small in the Kingdom of Heaven, for eternity.

Best wishes to Golden Key,
Christina
 

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Posted by Karl - Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
IME, I think there is far more danger of ascribing things to Satan and demons when it's just Shit Wot Happens. It's a natural corollary of the "God found me a parking space" theology - "Satan caused my offside rear to puncture".

You know, I only turned the corner in this whole depression thing after an Iona healing service at Greenbelt. What I felt God saying to me then was that it was as shit as I thought it was, that if God were in the same position He'd be as pissed off as I was. No "looking on the bright side", no "looking to the future" or any of that crap. Just acceptance that things were shit, and I was right to be extremely pissed off, even pissed off that God had apparently done absolutely fuck all about my situation.

My response to the "it's not that bad" crowd was, and is, "Yes it fecking is or I wouldn't be so depressed over it, would I?". And my response to the "Think happy thoughts" crowd - and, sorry ChristianaMarie, that's what your exercise boils down to - is "yeah, right. As if. And what's the best it can do? Twenty seconds of escapism? I can get several hours escapism down the Sheaf View".
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChristinaMarie:
One thing I know, I think anyone in a vulnerable state, could read some of the posts about real hopelessness, and decide to kill themselves.

It could have already happened. It's not just the posters who read these posts, but lurkers too.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Genie:
If there are any people here who might be contemplating harming themselves, then there are appropriate places to seek help.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chorister:
Thanks RooK - an excuse to eat chocolate and I'm in there!
(that thought sounds too heavenly for hell........)

One of the worst endings to a hymn I have ever come across is:

If ourlove were but more simple
We should take him at his word
And our lives would be all sunshine
In the sweetness of our Lord

Personally I prefer the psalms - I think Nunc's and Newman's Own's and Arietty's posts above sound like psalms - and they are so much more true of real human experience than sugary sweet piety.

Too many churches have gone for the 'happy all the time' route and have cut out a whole chunk of expressing human experience. Sometimes to me the Iona services dwell too much on this and I find them depressing, but in small doses maybe that is most needed to convey how we really feel at times.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Newman's Own:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Genie:
If there are any people here who might be contemplating harming themselves, then there are appropriate places to seek help.

---

I'm becoming really confused here. Nunc's post, and (as far as I can see) all which followed (except Christina Marie's, which had to do with bipolar disorder) had to do with facing crises of faith. I cannot see one word that has to do with anything about harming oneself.

As just one example, Ariel was speaking of how one may embrace a particular way of life with the conviction that this is how one best may serve God, then, later, wondering if this had been the outcome, and wishing one could see. I found this very moving and understandable - what has it to do with depression or wishing to do anyone harm?

Not to mention that all of the great theologians have pondered why there is evil in the world and so forth.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by me:

and so sure that God was showering affections on others, orgetting about me.

---

quote:

---

One thing I know, I think anyone in a vulnerable state, could read some of the posts about real hopelessness, and decide to kill themselves.

It could have already happened. It's not just the posters who read these posts, but lurkers too.

---

Nothing like blaming the victim.

This isn't about suicidal ideations, it's about a crisis of faith. They're not the same things, and I think it's appalling to say that people can't even voice their real frustrations with God without being blamed for some hypothetical suicide attempt.
 

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Posted by nicolemrw (# 28) on :
 
coming to this a bit late, but:

pyx_e , from your sister-in-the-12-steps.

in alanon, too, we generally come in refusing to to accept responsibility for our problems. we have someone else to blame besides god, though... the alcoholic. its all THEIR fault! everything is! if that stupid son-of-a-bitch would just stop drinking, then everything would just be PERFECT! cause theres nothing wrong with me at all, oh no.

and ya' know what? sometimes the son of a bitch does stop drinking, and its still not all perfect. and you know why? cause there ARE things wrong with me, and i have to deal with that. i have to take the responsibility for the mess i've made of my own life.

and of course, some times bad things "just happen". but we have a saying (i suspect aa has the same) "pain is obligatory. suffering is optional". the bad things are going to happen. all you can change is the way you react to them. you can wallow in your pain... we call it "sitting on the pity-pot", or you ca work on it. working on it takes time, btw, this isn't like a switch you can flip on and off, but you can work on it.
 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Newman's Own:
I'm becoming really confused here. Nunc's post, and (as far as I can see) all which followed (except Christina Marie's, which had to do with bipolar disorder) had to do with facing crises of faith. I cannot see one word that has to do with anything about harming oneself.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Newman's Own:
If anything, we have been inclined to think we are responsible for nearly everything! We struggle with guilt (other than that for sin), wondering if we made the right choices, if our seeking to help others caused our predicament (and often it did - but we worry about our own integrity).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Perhaps the person doesn't think God is a liar, but the only way they have to express how they feel is in words which sound like it.

I seem to recall someone saying, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" Yet if anyone knew about God's everlasting love, it would be this Guy, wouldn't it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by golden key:
Sabine, giving the experience you related, you might like the book "Travelling Mercies", by Anne LaMotte. She relates to God similarly, and in an extremely down-to-earth way. Great reading.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChristinaMarie:
The problem I see with God you're a liar, is that it is a judgement. I'm not saying people shouldn't express their feelings, but why are they doing it publically? Surely, they want some possible answers, shared experiences etc, that they might not have thought about?

---

quote:

---

As I said before, I wouldn't want to leave a person with a belief that has the potential to destroy them. Surely a public post like this thread is a cry for help too?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Well, all I can say is that this is Hell, and venting is what it is for. So a place to vent about being angry with God is ... here.

Perhaps the whole debate side of things should become its own thread in Purgatory?

---

Good point. Although that probably would raise the traditional bullseye response. But my thought is there is probably no religious arena in the world that would even come close to allowing such a thing, and in both "P***ed off at God" and this thread, I see some pretty interesting fruit being born that probably wouldn't have if people had not felt like thay had permission to be honestly angry. I think God is the most intensely interested lurker on these threads.
So yeah, is there A place for a Hellish prayer thread? Maybe we can call it Lamentations
 

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Posted by ChristinaMarie (# 1013) on :
 
Ruth wrote:

"You haven't been appointed by anyone "to leave a person with a belief" of any kind. We'll all sort out our own beliefs, thanks, without the help of someone whose advice to people struggling with faith in God is to stand up straight. So just back the hell off."

No I won't, because her struggles will be less hard if she can accept that God cannot tell lies.

People have the rightto post what they want, and I have the respond to respond, if I want to. I will not be censored.

Christina
 

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Posted by ChristinaMarie (# 1013) on :
 
should have been 'right to respond'
 

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Posted by Erin (# 2) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChristinaMarie:
No I won't, because her struggles will be less hard if she can accept that God cannot tell lies.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by nicolemrw:
and of course, some times bad things "just happen". but we have a saying (i suspect aa has the same) "pain is obligatory. suffering is optional". the bad things are going to happen. all you can change is the way you react to them. you can wallow in your pain... we call it "sitting on the pity-pot", or you ca work on it. working on it takes time, btw, this isn't like a switch you can flip on and off, but you can work on it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I think God is the most intensely interested lurker on these threads.

---

Kelly!

And quite sig-worthy.

Hmmm...wonder what kind of computer She has???
 

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Posted by Erin (# 2) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChristinaMarie:
Erin,

I'm glad you agree with the sentiment. I'm not trying to FORCE anyone to change their beliefs, just give reasons why they should consider doing so.

I thought that was bleeding obvious since we're all adults here.

It's not me who is treating people like children here, it's the likes of Ruth who play 'Mommy Protector'. It's very patronising, which is quite ironic, as she and you are obviously seeing me in that way.

---

quote:

---

ChristinaMarie typed something remarkably similar to:
People have the right to post what they want, and I have the [right] to respond, if I want to. I will not be censored.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Erin:
Did it ever occur to you, dearie, that maybe, JUST MAYBE, people on this thread are feeling a little too fragile to tell you to fuck off when you tell them that they're not trying hard enough to be good Christians? That all they EVER hear from their church is the same unadulterated horseshit that you are vomiting onto the boards? That they would like to be able to come to a place and once, just once, not have smarmy responses along the lines of "buck up, God CAN'T be the problem" which contains the unspoken, but nonetheless EVER PRESENT "so it must be you, you loser"?

Jesus H Christ, can't you just let people feel some fucking PAIN without having to have all the goddamned ANSWERS?

---

Since Erin brought it up, stuff it, ChristinaMarie. I have spent my whole fucking life trying to feel what someone else tells me how to feel, and I really wish you would just shut up about it. If you could get off your damned pretentious pedestal for 10 seconds, you might realize that we’re actually fairly smart and actually KNOW ALL THE THINGS YOU ARE SAYING. But, and try to listen very carefully so as not to get confused, just because I know something intellectually and believe it to be true, that doesn’t mean that it feels true. I know God loves me. I believe God loves me. But it sure as shit doesn’t FEEL like He loves me. It feels like He doesn’t give a flying fuck about me. Do you understand? Because, frankly, I don’t care if you understand. If you don’t like reading people’s real heart-felt pain, DON’T READ THE THREADS. Easy-peasy.
 

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Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
Christina Marie, you get the Eliphaz the Temanite Award for not saying the things that are right as God's servant Job has. Particularly for the remark that since the great theologians and philosophers have failed to resolve the problem of evil, the posters on these boards shouldn't trouble their scabby little heads with it but should just get out there and join a church group. You also get a collectible Medal of Mani for the thick smear of gnosticism over your argument. And you say others are condescending! God can defend Himself. What is more, He would rather be assaulted by the accusations of those who love him and won't let go of him even in their grief and rage ('Lord, if thou hadst been here our brother would not have died!') than praised with bullshit.
 

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Posted by JimT (# 142) on :
 
When you believe, or have been told, that God is in charge of everything, it is natural to blame God when tragedy occurs. It is also natural to become even more enraged that God does not step in and end the suffering.

For me, when I reached that point, I had to completely let go of the notion of any God at all. It was the only way to make the rage stop long enough to find out what was really wrong. The truth was horrifying and I had to spend years in therapy dealing with it. In a strange sense, I had to rebuild myself completely without God in order to come to the point where I could appreciate the true nature of Goodness, of Truth, of Love.

I note that at the moment of death, Jesus had to experience total rejection by God. That was the last thing he felt before he died a horrible death. I see a metaphor with that in my own experience, but other people might need to find another way through. Perhaps yelling and screaming at the God they believe in until they can't yell and scream any more will serve the same function. It seems to me that The God Who Could End Your Suffering But Lets It Continue and Compound For Reasons You Will Never Know must die. When He does, the last dumping ground for your anger is gone, and your last hope for a miracle is gone. Now you have to come up with a miracle yourself.

Generally, we suck at making miracles.

But we are capable of them. Luck can turn, too. Without knowing the people here, I believe that they will all find a way through. My hope is that it will be soon and free from any more tragedy.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Eanswyth.

And JimT --You have no clue how your post made me feel. ChristinaMarie, it's really simple--we just want to know we're not alone.Maybe the methodology is crude, but as scot pointed out, God isn't exactly a wimp with no training in psychotherapy. And when we share our hearts, as yucky as they may be at some times, we're not alone.

Thanks, Jim. I don't feel so alone.
 

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Posted by Abu Wuza (# 614) on :
 
[pastoral psychology 101] Listen. Don't preach.[/pastoral psychology]

And JimT,

AW
 

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Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :
 
I have read and re-read the posts on this thread with tears streaming down my face. At present I am having difficulty believing - no stuff that- at present I don't believe in God. I am really depressed and feeling the closest to self harm I've felt in years.

This thread has been helpful because people have been both honest and courageous about their difficulties and I don't feel so alone. Thank-you.

ChristinaMarie - I'm pleased you've found some things that are helpful to you in your situation. I have found your posts to be singularly unhelpful.

Huia
 

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Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :
 
ChristinaMarie, do me a favour, please drop it. Hey look at all the people who have disagreed with you, apologise and drop it. I know what you are/were trying to do was a good thing but you have gone of on a crusade.

I see the sense in all that you have said. I see how you are trying to not only help people and I see where you have come from, how you got where you are and how proud you are, of God and of those who have helped you.

However it is probably not right to A/ tell people they are wrong. B/ tell people THE way forward. There are many paths each has to find their own. Yours would not have worked for me or for many others.

My point, I think is that it is great to tell people how you got out from under (this time) but not so great to tell / expect them to do the same. It just does not work. You may offer hope by showing how you were helped but you may not enforce your regime on others.

And I agree with the vast majority of posters on this thread. There are types of aloneness, forsakenness and anger that are inexplicable, awful, undeserved and seemingly endless. I have been their, God knows I fear any return (…… lead me not into temptation) but as the bizarrely wise JimT implied it seems to me part of the (my) Christian experience. My hope I have clung to has been the cross, for in it lies an empty tomb. I pray for those who feel so broken.

P
 

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Posted by Lata (# 2618) on :
 
I would rather rant at God than know that He isn't there, and know that the world cannot ever make any sense.

Does that makes sense?
 

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Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChristinaMarie:

Okay, this person will try to act in His defence, as I don't think He owns a computer at the moment.

Christina

---

Ah, but surely, as the Psalmist says: 'the computers on a thousands hills are mine, says the Lord,' or was that 'cattle'? Damn, I guess we'll just have to do a bit of discernment ourselves then, without the aid of the internet. Let's hope God can find some way of getting through to us.....
 

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Posted by Karl - Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
ChristinaMarie:

quote:

---

9. Don't get yourself in a distressed state about the problem of evil. Many philosphers and theologians have failed to work it out, are you so gifted that you can? Better to do something good to overcome evil instead.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Huia:
I am really depressed and feeling the closest to self harm I've felt in years.

---

Please don't hurt yourself, Huia. You matter!!!
 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Ah, but surely, as the Psalmist says: 'the computers on a thousands hills are mine, says the Lord,' or was that 'cattle'?

Oh, that's it--God must use a Gateway computer, with the fetching cow pattern on the box!

Damn, I guess we'll just have to do a bit of discernment ourselves then, without the aid of the internet. Let's hope God can find some way of getting through to us.....

I'd settle for "one rap for yes, 2 for no"!
 

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Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
Christina, I'm not trying to play Mother Protector for adults. I'm saying you're dead wrong and insulting, to boot. I've felt the way Nunc and others on this thread are feeling - God be praised, that's not the case right now - and if I had had to listen to your particular brand of crap it might very well have made things worse. The bullshit you're perpetrating helped keep me out of the church and away from God for the better part of a decade.

Have you noticed that no one has said, "Gee, Christina, that was very helpful"? Whereas several people have said it's not. So get a tiny clue and stop being such an idiot.
 

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Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Erin:
Jesus H Christ, can't you just let people feel some fucking PAIN without having to have all the goddamned ANSWERS?

---

"Weep with those who weep, mourn with those who mourn," as I recall... not "tell them that they're wrong yet again" ...

David
happens to be an economic Socialist himself, actually, but fails to see the connection

also wonders, what the HECK does the H stand for?

also glad Huia knows she (he?) is not alone too...
 

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Posted by OgtheDim (# 3200) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Erin:
...snips a bit... Not everything that gets posted here has to be solved, you know, so you can take a night off from the messianic complex. The world will still turn, cross my heart.

---

But Erin, if the question can't be solved, then the error is in the question itself, not in the solution. and then a to those who won't let people rant
 

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Posted by Erin (# 2) on :
 
But I didn't say can't be solved, I said it didn't have to be solved.
 

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Posted by auntbeast (# 377) on :
 
Posted by Huia

quote:

---

At present I am having difficulty believing - no stuff that- at present I don't believe in God

---

I have also felt that way (and go in and out of it on a fairly regular basis). Several years ago I got the worst case of "God does not exist and this is all just crap" that I have ever had. It was the scariest thing I have ever experienced (and that's saying something given some of my job responsibilities). I am not entirely sure what turned the tide and got me back to "God exists so what the hell does it matter to me" and then onto "God exists and pisses me off repeatedly" and sometimes onto "God exists and is very large and powerful and I want to find a way to tap into that". Some of the things that I think helped were taking some time off work, getting more active, changing diet, and spending some time meditating (well, doing relaxation. I realize meditating while being absolutely convinced there is no God is a little contradictory). I don't know you so don't know if any of this is helpful at all. If it is not, please simply ignore me.

I hope that for you too this will be a passing season and if you are close to harming yourself please consider some intervention at a mental health level, whether medication or hospital. Not believing in God does not necessarily preclude continued life, there are many happy atheists out there too.

As for the OP, I have not had the energy of late to come up with a really creative rant at God and have really been enjoying other people's thoughts and rants. Some days the psalms just seem so antiquated.... "miserable squirming GIT of a being-creator-of-the-universe" seems much more relevant to me. Someday I hope to use it in conversation.

Hang in there to all. It's nice to know we are not alone in this.

All good things,
Auntbeast
 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
Originally posted by auntbeast:
and spending some time meditating (well, doing relaxation. I realize meditating while being absolutely convinced there is no God is a little contradictory).

Depends on the style of meditation. Many don't focus on any deity at all--much of Buddhist meditation doesn't.

Some days the psalms just seem so antiquated.... "miserable squirming GIT of a being-creator-of-the-universe" seems much more relevant to me. Someday I hope to use it in conversation.


Presumably to the Git in question?
 

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Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :
 
I've had my share of strong reactions and hatred of humans and omniscient beings. I think it does a person well to remember that hate and love are sides of the same coin.

Our passionate reactions (be they positive or negative) say a lot about what we consider important--important enough to become angry about.

If it's any help at all to those who are currently having a crisis of faith, know that by investing so much of yourself in the anger, you are actually investing yourself in a relationship. I can't imagine this goes unnoticed by God.

I also know the same principles apply to human relationships. When we care enough to get really p*ssed, we care about something. Sometimes it's good to stop and think about what is underneath the anger. I may get knocked on the virtual head of my avatar for this, but I happen to believe it's true. Our passions inform us if we care to look inside them. Or at least, this is how it has worked for me.

sabine
 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
Yes, Sabine.

Hence the usage "I don't give a damn" for "I don't care".
 

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Posted by kenwritez (# 3238) on :
 
ChristinaMarie: Perhaps the following will help you understand what people are meaning when they're posting angrily on this thread to you:

A few years ago I had to change the bandages on the head of my 81 yr old Dad, who, unbeknownst to us, was to die a few months later.

He had spent his life outdoors as a large animal vet and general manager for our family's dairy; consequently, he later developed several skin cancers on his head from decades of unprotected exposure to the sun.

Those cancers had been excised, the skin cut out around them, all the way down to the white bone of the skull, the largest of the excisions the diameter of a golf ball.

The dressings had to be changed every day. The procedure was simple: Soak the bandage with warm water in the shower, or with sterile saline solution for several minutes, so as to help soften and weaken the bonds formed between the healing wound and the fibers of the bandage.

Once the soaking was done, we had to very carefully remove the adhesive tape holding the bandage on, then peel back the bandage, gummy strands of clotted blood cells and serum and white cells requiring delicate handling, to expose the wound.

Throwing the old bandage away, we irrigated the wound with more saline solution, Dad holding a towel to his face to prevent the solution from dripping into his eyes or ears.

Peeling off a fresh bandage, we gently placed it over the wound, then oh so carefully taped it at the very corners so to keep it on Dad's head.

The kicker to this ostensibly simple procedure is that Dad had hives on his head, a condition that magnified every pain on his scalp a thousandfold.

Now, you should know my Dad had been around pain and hard work all his life, he was no stranger to it. You get that way being raised on a dairy during the Depression and working 10, 12, 14 hours a day with your brothers when you're not in school, up at 4 a.m every day and not in bed 'til after sunset. He's dug birdshot out of his ear with his own pocket knife when he was accidentally shot while out hunting. He was, absolutely without exaggeration, one of the toughest men I've ever seen.

The times I had to replace his bandages, I could feel his shoulders shake with pain, and I could hear him gasp and moan, "Oh shit, oh shit that hurts, ohshitohshitohshit...."

At that point, at that point of his greatest pain, (and here's what would behoove you to grasp) he did not need a lecture on pain management skills!

When people are in pain, the very knowledge you feel they lack is the very last thing they need from you.

When people are suffering in front of you, Rule #1: Shut the fuck up. Rule #2: People don't care what you know. Rule #3: People need your heart, not your head.

My Dad did not need me telling him to buck up and cheer up. He needed me to be as gentle as I could, which I was, to do the job as quickly as I could, which I did, and to let me know he appreciated my act of love to him, which he said.

People in pain don't give a rat's ass what they ought to do, should do, or where they've gone wrong in their theology or worldview.

People in pain want to be out of pain immediately. Sometimes, "immediately" isn't an option.

People in pain need to be loved sacrificially, unconditionally accepted, they need to know YOU are there with them, YOU, you as in your heart and soul and spirit, NOT your lectures or good advice. They know you can't take away their pain, that's not the point! The point is that you give of the one thing no one else can duplicate: Yourself, your essence, your identity as a fellow human and fellow sufferer.

Every atom of lecture or pedantry you deign to give them is magnified through the terrible lens of suffering into one more metric ton of shit and suffering dumped on them by your well-meaning hand.

CM, I quite like your posts in other threads, so please accept my explanation that I'm not trying to jump up and down you with hob-nailed boots; tuly, I'm not. My purpose in posting is to try and explain to you that your posts, though well intentioned and technically true, were the equivalent of sticking your finger bluntly into a raw and open wound.

Speak the truth in love, yes, but also know when to shut up in love. Save the lectures for debates or when someone asks you. It's a lesson most of learn imperfectly, me most imperfectly indeed.
 

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Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by auntbeast:
Not believing in God does not necessarily preclude continued life, there are many happy atheists out there too.
Auntbeast

---

Auntbeast, you chose your ship name well - that is one of the most comforting things anyone has said, not because I will necessarily become an atheist, but because it takes some pressure off.

Thankyou. I will keep myself safe.

Huia
 

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Posted by Eanswyth (# 3363) on :
 
O Dear God, thank you for Ken, my brother whom I love greatly. His words have touched me most deeply. Please give me a portion of the compassion and wisdom you have given him.

P.S. God, I'm still mad, but I love You anyways.
 

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Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
Kenwritez,
 

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Posted by Linus (# 3961) on :
 
The issue here is not one of depression, or feeling unhappy, or even how to feel happy again. It's deeper than that. It's about being real. It's about wanting a relationship with God that's more about honesty than it is about putting up the right front. It's about crying out in our despair to the God of love and justice, asking Him to hear us and answer us, challenging him to comfort us, not manufacturing by our own strength a false belief in A god like that, but calling on THE God like that to hear us in our desperation, to respond to us in our pain, even when we feel He is not there, or not like that, or just plain not interested. I often struggle to act according to what i truly feel instead of what i think i should be - i find it hard to be vulnerable even before God. Please give those who have the courage and the need to be real with God in public the chance to do so - I for one have found their honesty cathartic, inspiring and uplifting. Do not "add heavy burdens to people's backs, while not lifting a finger to help them" I do not claim to understand the experiences of Chronic depression, bipolar, alcohol addiction etc. I thank God for the testimonies of those who have felt and seen God's grace at work in their lives in this way and pray it may continue - thankyou for the encouragement that God does act and help us to change, but this is different - this is pouring out the way we feel before God, not what we SHOULD feel, but what we do feel, in all honesty and openess and brokeness.
Here's mine:

Oh God of the heavens, all knowing one, creator of all things
why is your wisdom so far off
and your salvation so distant from those who seek it? How come my friends don't turn to you, and i'm plagued by confusion and doubt?
what is your defense - nothing makes any sense?
I don't get it.
I want to go home.

...yet i will rejoice in the Lord, the God of my salvation. In Him i will take great delight. Even if i don't feel like it.

God bless you all, and may the God of love shine his light upon you, and lead you in the way everlasting.

Linus:>

sorry didn't mean it to be preachy if that's how it comes across - just strugglin along trying to be helpful as you guys help me so much.
 

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Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :
 
Dear Linus--I know how you feel. It's difficult to express concern and a loving tone in plain text, even with the aid of smileys, and it's easy to look back on one's words and wonder if something can be read into them that wasn't there when they were written.

Something I hope will be of some solace to the people who are suffering on this thread:

The OP was a rant at a God who seems indifferent. So far, this thread has not been indifferent. Some may say there has been some preaching and lecturing, but that is not inidifference.

So, taken as a whole I would say that this thread is doing what some feel God is not doing.

Perhaps we care enough to argue with each other and we care enough to respond.

I pray God's presence be felt soon by those who feel it's absence. It's my belief that God is here among us on this thread.

sabine
 

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Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
I would imagine that I am one of those horrid creatures for whom the great god Christina Marie wishes to offer 'help.' That is why I hate to waste my time, because it may only lead to more posturing.

Well, it all has been enlightening! What a new Christianity! One may not question God, admitting, as centuries of Christians have, that there are many things we cannot understand, many questions for which there are no answers. But be of good cheer - one can actually be God. If one has total control over everything which goes wrong, one must naturally be the creator of one's own universe, where one also has control of everything else. Other people do not have free will - no, the newly created god is responsible for everything.

I have never in my life, for example, heard anything as ludicrous as that anyone thinks that bad things don't happen to Christians - if nothing else, the cross proves that wrong. But I suppose that, if someone was the victim of a criminal attack, s/he must not only take the blame for the other's action, but know that some bizarre thought of being invulnerable caused this.

One may not admit to being a sinner, of course (there go Paul's epistles, the four gospels, and so forth.) But one has a wicked power of conjuring! One's very thoughts cause such things as criminal actions. And of course one is very, very wicked! Those who innocently acted in trying to live the gospels, and who had no idea that another was lying, manipulating, or whatever, chose to be manipulated. We can read minds! We can see inside another's soul! We can know everyone else's motives!

We are perfect! Unlike the true God, who allowed his creation such things as free will, we can control everything. Damn all those sick apostles who cautioned their flocks against sin and encouraged them in persecution! Damn those martyrs who let themselves be manipulated! All they needed was exercise! And damn all of those endless Christians (and not only Christians, of course) who, in admitting that there were no answers to problems of evil and the like, were just deluded. After all, if one admits that there is much one cannot understand, but admits, as well, that this can be agonising, one thinks one is so gifted that one has the mind of God.

Someone else on this thread made an apt reference to John of the Cross. John had more than his share of suffering (he was imprisoned by his own community, for example), but he was not writing of depression. He was writing with the knowledge that much is beyond us. He was not looking to self-mutilate or commit suicide (nor is anyone on this thread, as far as I can see... I don't know where that rubbish came from)! John was not being destroyed - but his false self, admitting that divine power is beyond the limitations of his vision, was being crushed in a sense that the genuine lover of God could come through.
 

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Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Newman's Own:

Someone else on this thread made an apt reference to John of the Cross. John had more than his share of suffering (he was imprisoned by his own community, for example), but he was not writing of depression. He was writing with the knowledge that much is beyond us.

<snip>

John was not being destroyed - but his false self, admitting that divine power is beyond the limitations of his vision, was being crushed in a sense that the genuine lover of God could come through.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Erin:
But I didn't say can't be solved, I said it didn't have to be solved.

---

Agreed Erin; but for those who believe every question must and does have an answer, a conundrum exists when faced with an unanswerable question. Unfortunately, in order to keep their belief system intact, many will say the question is wrong; or, in the face of being told their answer is incorrect, they will insist their must be an answer and blame those who refute their proof for standing in the way.

Being a person involved in community work, I have learned to despise such behaviour. It leads to pat answers and simple programs and meglomaniacs.
I prefer to call such people
Bastards.
 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
Ok, God.

All those cozy promises about providing for and protecting people, and not giving anyone more than they can handle, don't hold water.

Occasionally, they seem to work for *someone*, *some* of the time--but most of the time, it's just crap.

So...

are you erratic?

did you make those promises? If you didn't, why did you let someone write them down in your name, and get our hopes up?

Get down here. You owe us one heck of an explanation!
 

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Posted by Lata (# 2618) on :
 
I often think that what I think I can handle and what God thinks I can handle are two very different things....

Haven't worked out how to reconcile them...
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Ken and sabine--wow.I can't come up with anything else

And linus, I think you really hit the nail on the head with your post. Thanks for putting into words what i've been sensing about this thread.
 

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Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 
I'm trying to avoid hugging people in Hell, so here is a free coupon for such, to be used on other boards.

Lots of wise things being said about the right ways to deal with people in pain...
 

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Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 

quote:

---

posted by golden key:
<snip>
Get down here. You owe us one heck of an explanation! [Mad] [Waterworks]

---

quote:

---

I think we forget that God never 'said' such things as "I'll never give anyone more than s/he can handle,"

---

quote:

---

1 Corinthians 10
13For no temptation (no trial regarded as enticing to sin), [no matter how it comes or where it leads] has overtaken you and laid hold on you that is not common to man [that is, no temptation or trial has come to you that is beyond human resistance and that is not [1] adjusted and [2] adapted and belonging to human experience, and such as man can bear].

---

I would say God has tested me beyond my limits, not saying my limits were that high, certainly not compared to the experiences and endurances of others on this thread.

The upshot being that I am virtually not speaking to God, out of some childish defiance maybe. Reading this site is about as close as I get to even vaguely Christian activity at the moment but there is something that keeps me curious, willing God to somehow come through for me and prove that he was right all along. (though I shan't admit it easily).

It's not much, but I haven't totally given up yet. Lord have mercy.
 

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Posted by JimT (# 142) on :
 
This was the way "God won't let the Devil give you more than you can take" was always handed out to me. This is 1 Corinthians 10:13 from the amplified Bible, then the NIV.

1 Corinthians 10

13For no temptation (no trial regarded as enticing to sin), [no matter how it comes or where it leads] has overtaken you and laid hold on you that is not common to man [that is, no temptation or trial has come to you that is beyond human resistance and that is not [1] adjusted and [2] adapted and belonging to human experience, and such as man can bear]. But God is faithful [to His Word and to His compassionate nature], and He [can be trusted] not to let you be tempted and tried and assayed beyond your ability and strength of resistance and power to endure, but with the temptation He will [always] also provide the way out (the means of escape to [3] a landing place), that you may be capable and strong and powerful to bear up under it patiently.

1 Corinthians 10
13No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

While this passage seeks to comfort and assure people, it has an unintended flip side that implies if you succumb to despair it is your fault. It paints a picture to some that depicts God as the world's omniscent drill sargeant: he knows you can take more than you think you can and will push you to the limit, which is far beyond what you ever dreamed you could endure. You'll make it. You'll come forth as gold. He is like a refiner's fire. That's God's promise--if you'll believe. Remind yourself of that. He doesn't lie. That should comfort you.

Wrong. While it may bolster some, many deeply despairing people are going to be crushed by that kind of "comfort." It deepens their crisis of faith and confidence, which is the whole problem in the first place. For them, the attempt at encouragement has backfired.
 

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Posted by JimT (# 142) on :
 
That's a pretty amazing cross post, right down to the translation.

Sorry. I took a long time writing and didn't see the previous post.
 

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Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :
 
To which I would add: Sirach 2 1.7

quote:

---

1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation. 2 Set thy heart aright and constantly endure, and make not haste in time of trouble. 3 Cleave unto Him, and depart not away, that thou mayest be increased at thy last end. 4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate*. 5 For gold is tried in the fire and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. 6 Believe in Him, and He will help thee; order thy way aright, and trust in Him. 7 Ye that fear the Lord, wait for His mercy; and go not aside, lest ye fall.

---

*some translastions say "humiliated"

There seems an implication that suffering and humiliation are part of a godly life. I would also wish to add that the suffering. Anger, and feelings of forsaken aloneness are the result of many reasons. Some of which are unfathomable. Some of which are due to our own mistakes, sins and pride. John 15 has been a touchstone for me. Knowing that which does not bear fruit is pruned, I may not like it, it is losing part of me but I try and trust Him.

When the cause of the pain is unknowable or unstoppable then comfort, prayers and love must be the right response. In other places and times it is not so. Indeed sometimes one needs to be nasty. It is all about discernment, experience and giftedness for this work.

P
 

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Posted by The Wanderer (# 182) on :
 
Pyx_e, funnily enough the bit of John 15 that has been a comfort to me is that every branch that does bear fruit is pruned. For me that is a way of valuing those things I have lost. They were good, and got taken away - not because they were worthless but for reasons I cannot fathom. Recognising that they were valuable helps me in my loss.
 

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Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
What follows is dreadful theology, I know, but I cannot be alone in having dealt with this. In fact, I believe that some Christians who end up in cult like settings are trying to find a way to God that involves his helping us, with varied difficulties, here and now.

One element which bothered me especially, particularly during a faith crisis I had as a young woman, was that it appears that God has promised to give us the strength to keep from sin (however much we fall into this - but sin involves turning one's will towards doing the wrong), but has never promised to assist us in temporal needs (by which I do not mean only financial sustenance, but anything else related to 'this world.') I would imagine that, in the time when the epistles were composed, many of the new Christians were in quite a period of confusion themselves. God would give them the strength to continue in their faith... but that very faith caused them every sort of trouble, and the second coming of the Messiah, which would lead to glory for all, was taking its time about coming.

(I blush to even include this, but I think it is a common pain.) One very difficult element is that the other side of this was feeling God does not care about us in our pain here. All we are supposed to care about is not falling into sin, yet many terrible predicaments had nothing to do with sin at all. It practically seemed as if, were we to approach God with our pain, He'd coldly respond with "the only hope that you should have is to see me in heaven." (That line is not original with me, by any means - I shudder to think of some of the times I heard it used.)

Pyx_e makes an excellent point about discernment (etc.). Few of us have that gift, and, more often than not, we do not know the circumstances of another's life (nor are these often apparent at first glance.) Not to mention that our own sinfulness and weakness can blind us - I have seen many an occasion where telling another to 'stop feeling sorry for himself' boiled down to 'look at how much worse I have it!' As another simple example, sometimes people who grew up in extreme poverty assume (without having any knowledge of the struggles another has) that anyone who is not dirt poor has a marvellous life.

I am of southern Italian (peasant) parentage. As a rule, members of that set have a very open, rather homely approach to God - they think nothing of shouting at him (you should have heard mama at dad's funeral), but also talk to him (and to the saints, their 'extended family') in a very warm and confident manner. There is something very 'real' about this that makes God as Father seem very near.
 

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Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :
 
I had a hard time knowing where to "prune" a quote from Pix-e's great post, so I didn't prune anything and I simply refer back to it.

After many years of intermittant raging at God, I finally adopted an attitude of

This is the life I have, now what am I going to do about it?

By being pragmatic, I took the pressure off me and God at the same time.

I'm not saying this will work for everyone (hey, I don't have 100% satisfaction myself). However, there are a couple of situations in my life which will never change and must be endured, and raging at God was just sucking away energy that I needed to get on with life in general.

Amazingly, once I adopted a more pragmatic attitude, some adaptive behaviors became obvious when they weren't obvious before. And my friends all thanked me for it, too.

I'm not saying that we have no right to our feelings or dark nights of the soul or bitter words for God, but I've found there is a lot to be gained by just doing the dishes when other, more important issues don't seem to have answers.
****

May the Healing Light of God illumine all paths in the darkness, all hidden gates in the walls before us, and all opportunities for creative, honest, and passionate communication with The Divine.

sabine
 

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Posted by Annie P (# 3453) on :
 
I have been reading this thread since it started. It's been hard sometimes, seeing the anger and rage that people have for God. I really wanted to post something - not sure what, but to at least encourage. I don't want to patronise, give advice, try to be cheerful or offer platitudes. Everything I've thought of so far didn't seem to fit and it seems that everyone has said a lot of what could be said, good and bad, but here goes:

When you can't pray, I'll pray for you. When the very thing which you thought was certain and sure has been taken away from you I will be here for you to tell me how it is and I'll try to listen. In the end I hope that you will get to the other side where faith may be restored, and if you do, we'll be waiting for you. I just want to offer you hope.

Ok so the next bit might seem a little daft, but there was this song on the radio this morning by Lee Ann Womack which kind helps me to say what I'm thinking about for this thread.
"I Hope You Dance"

The point of feeling small when standing by the ocean and not taking the path of least resistance speaks to me of wonder and determination. Please don't give up, I pray that through this and other ways you might find the courage to carry on, oh and to dance.

regards
Annie.
ps this is not meant to be some magic bullet of a post, just another thing to weave into the thoughts which have been shared here.

[Severe copyright violation. I found you a link. Time to pay me double money.]

[ 27. February 2003, 23:50: Message edited by: sarkycow ]
 

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Posted by JPF SC (# 4183) on :
 
It is very easy to want to rub the bottle and have the genie appear to fulfill our wishes. I dont think that is really how it works.Wheras it is very human to want what we want, i dont think that is what God wants for us. Saint Paul talks about how God wants us to be like his son Jesus Christ. Jesus went to the cross and died for us. Not exactly a pleasant experience, and one most people dont have in mind when they pray to God for some blessing or an answer to their prayers.But like Christ we will also be risen up and the sufferings of this world will not even be worthy of comparison to the glory we will have when we meet him face to face.Look at what happened to most of the proffets, not exactly glory. Desire righteousness for righteousnesses sake. His word tells us that he loves us and that He will always be with us. He also says 'if you love me obey my commandments'Are you obeying? Sarah was almost dead before she had her promised son but she belived God to be faithful and recieved her blessing.
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
I have often said to people I care about, 'I wish I had a magic wand that I could wave to make it alright'. Of course, life isn't like that, and things don't get better that easily. But it doesn't stop us wanting to use a magic wand if only we had one. And I don't see anything wrong in that wish to make it come right, as it shows you care, even if you can't actually do anything in reality.
 

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Posted by OutOfTherapy (# 4081) on :
 
Loved Annie P's post, and hated JPF SC's, though I'm trying to be considerate to a new shipmate.

In fact I mostly am obeying God's word, not exactly out of love for Him though. More because the whole Christian morality is just part of who I am now and has really shaped what I think is right and wrong.

I can't give up on God and my Christian beliefs because I am scared of what point there is to life if neither of them are there. And though some kind of humanist 'do right by other people' philosophy sort of works, when you're tired and beaten by the crapness of the world and the horrific ways people treat each other and the lack of resources and lack of people caring and you realise that you just cannot do enough, you (well, I) long to believe there is a God in control and that one day everything will make sense and be ok.

Of course I know God's not a genie in a bottle, he's far less predictable than that. But a God who chooses to hide himself is hard to relate to. I believe he could make himself so much more present and involved... but he doesn't. What is he playing at?
 

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Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 
JPF, welcome to the Ship of Fools - an online community who debate, argue, play, pray, cry and laugh together. I hope you enjoy wandering our decks, reading the boards, and posting your own thoughts.

Please read the Ship's 10 Commandments and guidelines to each board - they'll help you find your feet here.

Viki, hellhost
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Remember the "2 kinds of shipmates" thread?

Shipmates to whom I would trust my feelings and shipmates who would probably always get an "OK" from me if they asked how I was doing.

Annie, Annnie, Annie. One of the former.
 

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Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by sabine:

<snip>
After many years of intermittant raging at God, I finally adopted an attitude of

This is the life I have, now what am I going to do about it?

By being pragmatic, I took the pressure off me and God at the same time.

<large snip>

I'm not saying that we have no right to our feelings or dark nights of the soul or bitter words for God, but I've found there is a lot to be gained by just doing the dishes when other, more important issues don't seem to have answers.
<snip>

---

The full post is the last one on page 3 if anyone wants to read these bits in context.

Sabine and I seem to be at the same stage of this journey. I have been wanting to make these points, but couldn't find proper words (I kept coming up with "At this point in my life, I shrug a lot").

I'm echoing this sentiment in hopes that it will offer a bit of hope to some of those who are ranting at God. I won't presume to say that I have come out the other side of ranting (I doubt it) but at least I can say that it is possible to move on to a less-anguished state, even while still entertaining all sorts of doubts and questions, struggles and unhappiness.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
"At this point in my life, I shrug a lot"

Since I probably have to change my sig, can I call dibsies on this, jlg? Unless you want it.
 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
JPF SC--

Welcome.

Er...have you read the rest of the thread, and all the pain people have poured out?

You might want to do that.
 

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Posted by JPF SC (# 4183) on :
 
dear community,after having read all of the posts, i still think that for me to have any honesty in my approach to this topic, i need to say again that i rally think that we as Christians need to carefully consider what the bible specifically says about the various topics that we discuss. I know that many people might say oh, here comes the fundamentalist interpretation that lacks all love and compassion. But i still firmly believe Jesuses saying the "truth will set you free'. Jesus is that Truth and to try to make any sense out of life or our Christian experience without relying solely on the word of God for our guidance would just seem undo-able.My heart goes out to everyone in this world who experiences pain.
 

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Posted by JPF SC (# 4183) on :
 
I really have not learned to use this system , excuse me . Continuing from my last post....My life in particular is extremely painful to me. Nothing i have ever done in my life has worked out and in general i dont ever feel very good at all. But , having said this , i can honestly say that jesus who is the Christ has saved me. Now that i know him and can read his word, things for the first time do make sense. He has plucked me out of the pit, and put my feet on solid ground. Now , as i go thru life and have to deal with the consequences of sin and this fallen world, i often times look at the Lord and say, Lord you dont really want me to do that or be obiedient to that command do you? And ultimately my heart says , and i feel that this is the holy spirit convicting me , yes that is what i want you to do and i want you to do this because i , the Lord , love you. 2 things that i try to keep in mind are this 1 .the Lord is righteous 2. He loves me . What do these 2 things mean for me really? First since he is righteous , everything that he does is right. Second, everything he does ,he does because He loves me . Most of the time , i have a hard time knowing how in the world ,Lord, does this mess or this pain i am going thru help me. But if you think about that maybe God wants us to be more like his Son Jesus then it begins to make sense. Most people dont like to have scripture quoted to them, but if you would read Hebrews 11 and 12, i think that the word obviously says it better than i.The love of God is an awesome thing, i hope for you that you soon can feel that love,even though i know very little and anything that i write seems very inadequate, i still pray this for you and all people in the world that the love of the Lord Jesus can shine in their heart and give them comfort. JPF
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
JPF SC--
Ok, let's look at the Bible. Moses argued with God, and was called God's friend. Jacob wrestled with God, and became the father of a nation. Mary of Bethany accused Jesus of not caring about her brother's death, and he wept with her.Thomas called everyone who'd seen the Risen Lord a liar, and Jesus came to see him personally. Job expressed grave doubts about God's fairness, and begged God to kill him, and (like you, sir) his friends propped little halos on their heads and told Job to stop saying such sacriligious things about God and gee, who did God end up siding with?

It would appear to me, from the scriptual evidence, that honest confrontation of God is a prerequisite of a close relationship with God.When you read the threads , as you say you did, didn't you notice the obvious progression from full-on rage to heartfelt wonderings and expressions of release and comfort at being allowed to speak? Don't you think that means anything?

I do, and as I said, I think God is on this thread with us. Give God some credit, man.And don't rip open the wounds that are trying to heal.
 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
Kelly (yet again!)
 

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Posted by kenwritez (# 3238) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
It would appear to me, from the scriptual evidence, that honest confrontation of God is a prerequisite of a close relationship with God.

---

that I didn't say this first.

Excellent point, excellent post.

Welcome to the Ship, and to Hell, JPF. I hope your stay here is a happy one.

Your post reminds me a great deal of me, so I have about a million things I'm struggling to say here to you, things I want to tell you that I've learned and suffered and realized about God, Jesus, Hell, death, life, mankind, our relationship to the first two and to each other, things that I hope will broaden your horizons and save you a world of grief, but it's a futile thing; you can't dig wells for someone else. The things I would tell, I fear you'd look at me like I was a loon or just a blasphemer.

So, I'll take my own advice and STFU.

Welcome, welcome, welcome, JPF!

Peace and grace to you here.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Sorry, JPF SC, crossposted.

Your second posts shows an admirable attempt at empathizing. But I would pose to you one more question: which sounds more like the words of a close, loving son?

"Sir, meaning no disrespect but I am confused as to your intent. No offense or anything, You're the boss and all but I just had a question--oops! guess that means I have no faith.Bad, bad me"

OR--
"What in the heck are you doing? dad? I don't get it! Don't you care about me at all?"

(As a hint, I will again refer you to Mary of Bethany, who said one of these things almost verbatum.)

As you said, the love of God is an awesome thing...and that puts the responsibility on us to make sure we are dispensing it.I posted my own struggles on this thread because I knew (1)I would be heard and (2) I hoped by doing so, another person out there would go (Wow! I'm not crazy or unusually sinful or evil, lots of people have these thoughts!" By saying " I hear you" I am saying "I'm here for you."

I remember saying in a Bible study once, " Some one can't say 'Jesus loves me this I know' unless he/she can say, 'Kelly loves me this I know.'"
What I mean is, acts of love from me, Golden Key, you,sabine, whoever are what reassures people that God is out there somewhere loving them. So, buddy, that's my job. By sharing our hearts together, we huddle together and create warmth, and perhaps the hint of an idea, that if these people care, how much more must God?

I'm not putting you down, I'm trusting that you are honestly trying to give comfort. It's just your technique needs work. Go dig up the "P**ed at God" thread in Purgatory for a less graphic discussion of people's anger at God and the appropriate response to it. I found it so profoundly moving I printed it out and saved it. Probably on Pg 3 or 4 by now.
Peace.
 

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Posted by Duo Seraphim (# 3251) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by JPF SC:
But i still firmly believe Jesuses saying the "truth will set you free'. Jesus is that Truth and to try to make any sense out of life or our Christian experience without relying solely on the word of God for our guidance would just seem undo-able..

---

quote:

---

My heart goes out to everyone in this world who experiences pain.

---

quote:

---

Continuing from my last post....My life in particular is extremely painful to me. Nothing i have ever done in my life has worked out and in general i dont ever feel very good at all. But , having said this , i can honestly say that jesus who is the Christ has saved me.

---

quote:

---

Love and trust - what else is there

---

quote:

---

The love of God is an awesome thing, i hope for you that you soon can feel that love,even though i know very little and anything that i write seems very inadequate, i still pray this for you and all people in the world that the love of the Lord Jesus can shine in their heart and give them comfort. JPF

---

But understand this - when people get angry with God it is not that they love him less, they are trying to understand Him and to love and trust Him more.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Bravo, Duo.
 

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Posted by JimT (# 142) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by JPF SC:
Nothing i have ever done in my life has worked out and in general i dont ever feel very good at all. But , having said this , i can honestly say that jesus who is the Christ has saved me.

---

quote:

---

His word tells us that he loves us and that He will always be with us.

---

quote:

---

He also says 'if you love me obey my commandments'Are you obeying?

---

quote:

---

i need to say again that i rally think that we as Christians need to carefully consider what the bible specifically says about the various topics that we discuss. I know that many people might say oh, here comes the fundamentalist interpretation that lacks all love and compassion.

---

And I wonder why people might say that.

quote:

---

Jesus is that Truth and to try to make any sense out of life or our Christian experience without relying solely on the word of God for our guidance would just seem undo-able.

---

quote:

---

My heart goes out to everyone in this world who experiences pain.

---

quote:

---

Most people dont like to have scripture quoted to them

---

quote:

---

but if you would read Hebrews 11 and 12, i think that the word obviously says it better than i.

---

quote:

---

The love of God is an awesome thing, i hope for you that you soon can feel that love,

---

quote:

---

even though i know very little and anything that i write seems very inadequate

---

First glimmer of some comprehension. Perhaps you might want to consider what the best place for your inadequate platitudes might be?

Don't take this post personally, just take it ly
 

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Posted by auntbeast (# 377) on :
 
Go Karl

It is too late and I am too tired to come up with a slam dunk for our newest platitude waving holier than us git. Thanks for taking it on.

All good things,
Auntbeast
 

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Posted by Smudgie (# 2716) on :
 
JPF SC, I have been reading this thread since its beginning, and many others like it.

I am fortunate and honoured that people are sharing with me experiences I have never had. I listen and learn.

My heart longs to do something or say something to put things right, but how can I? I cannot even begin to know how the people posting here are feeling. I certainly cannot claim to know the unfathomable mind of God. I listen, and learn, and pray and love. I can do no more.

When my mother was dying, a friend who had never experienced loss tried to comfort me. It took a lot to get through to him that I knew all the things he was saying, they just didn't take away the fact that my mother was dying and I was heartbroken. He couldn't understand that all I needed was for him to put his arms round me and hold me and let me cry until I needed to cry no more.

JPF SC, listen and learn. Love and support. Don't try to build the bridges between hurting people and God. God and the individual are the only ones who can do that, who can work through the relationship, who can come to terms with the hurt. Give them the credit to be able to do that in their own space and time - this being one of the ways that they do that - and realise how priveledged you are to be part of that just by being here.
 

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Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
JPF SC

You seem to think that God doesn't like it when we wave our fists at him and yell.

On various threads in the past, many shipmates have said that when they did this, they felt a very strong sense of God's presence and love.

There is a poem by William Blake which begins,

I was angry with my friend:
I told my wrath, my wrath did end.
I was angry with my foe:
I told it not, my wrath did grow.

God doesn't mind our expressing anger with him. People get angry with God expect something of him. People who don't get angry with God seem to have no expectations of him.

Moo
 

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Posted by Scot (# 2095) on :
 
Oddly, this thread has made me feel very glad to be a christian. Thanks to those who have reminded me that normal people get very angry with God sometimes. Thanks to those who have reminded me of how to stand by someone without trying to lead them anywhere.

scot
 

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Posted by JPF SC (# 4183) on :
 
of the posts i read back from what i said carl the liberal backslider is the only one that really does not seem genuine. I guess my one problem is this many people seem so impatient with the Lord. in hebrews 12;4 Paul talks about resisting until we have shed blood. This passage always reminds me of when Jesus was in the garden of Gethsemane and he sweated tears of blood while praying to his Father about his upcoming death. I have a very sneaky suspicion sometimes that jesus was not really that excited about dying on the cross and being rejected by God. But, because of his zeal for his father's word in obiedience he went to the cross to bear our sins for us, which ultimately created the ability for us to not be at enmity with God. I think this is a great example for us. also in hebrews 11, the great faith hero chapter, we hav emany examples of people who waited patiently for their Lord to do what he said he was going to do.Can we as a community of believers try to inspire people to have the faith to wait or is it really just about not making any waves so that whatever people think it is ok because we now live in a world where nothing really matters or is right. Carl said something about not liking scripture quotes, how else can we guage what we think and feel to make sure that we are staying true to the good news of the gospel? If this website really is just a site where people go to get support for their feelings regardless of what those feelings are then i understand and i probably dont need to be here, but if a person really does love another person my experience has always been that he will try to reason with him for him to see his way of thinking. I truly believe the bible is the inspired word of God and that buried within its holy pages are all of the answers for this broken world we live in. and i say that with love wether you accept it or not. JPF
 

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Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
Excellent, Kelly - thank you!

As for our new, fundamentalist friend - First, why would you assume that people who have crises of faith (while, from every indication from the posts on this thread, in no way denying that salvation comes through Christ) are looking for a 'genie in a bottle?' What on this thread gave you the impression that people are justifying disobeying the commandments? Or that anyone denies that God is Truth?

Jesus indeed did promise to 'be with us always.' Yet I do believe that this can be little comfort when, first, one is confronting the limitations of one's own vision concurrently with trying to grow in love of God and of neighbour, and, secondly, realising that the promise seems to extend only to the spiritual (keeping us from sin, for example.)

God's covenant with the Jews did not prevent the Holocaust. His speaking of the lilies of the field (yes, I know that overall passage has other implications) does not mean that many of his children die in the street every day. There are no answers to these situations, but I believe many of us reach a point where we have to admit that we cannot say wholeheartedly "all I care about is my salvation." Perhaps we could say "I ask you, Lord, to give me the grace to love you above all things, but, in all honesty, I cannot say that I do not care what happens to me on earth as long as I see you in heaven." (Nor am I speaking of any sort of greed or avarice. I am referring to survival, not excess.)

No one denies that Jesus is our Saviour in such moments (unless the crisis is so desperate that one's faith is all but gone.) Yet it seems to me that, in his humanity, Jesus' primary vocation was proclaiming the kingdom. His death was a natural outgrowth of this - he did not go to the Cross because a vengeful God desired blood and used those responsible as pawns. Many of us (though not, of course, forgetting that Jesus' nature and relationship to the Father was unique to Him!), during these times of terrible confusion, are trying to look through the veils of darkness to see in what way we can join in that vocation of 'proclaiming.' It is not a universal vocation to go to the cross.

All of my life, I have seen people become afraid to be honest with themselves, or bottle up perfectly legitimate pain, because the smug retort to anyone who was truthful was "but Jesus went to a cross."
 

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Posted by Arrietty (# 45) on :
 
JFP

You are reading the Bible quite selectively if you have not noticed that God seems able to take our negative feelings. Many people have posted to that effect, so there is no point my adding to their comments. But please believe me when I say there have been many times when the only thing that has kept me going as a Christian is the fact that those who agreed the canon of scripture saw fit to include (for example) the Psalms, the book of Job, and Jesus' cry on the cross. I have concluded from this, and from the writings of many Christians across the centuries, that we are not called on to ignore our negative feelings and that acknowledging them may form an authentic part of our Christian journey .
 

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Posted by Karl - Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by JPF SC:
of the posts i read back from what i said carl the liberal backslider is the only one that really does not seem genuine.

---

quote:

---

I guess my one problem is this many people seem so impatient with the Lord.

---

quote:

---

in hebrews 12;4 Paul talks about resisting until we have shed blood. This passage always reminds me of when Jesus was in the garden of Gethsemane and he sweated tears of blood while praying to his Father about his upcoming death. I have a very sneaky suspicion sometimes that jesus was not really that excited about dying on the cross and being rejected by God.

---

quote:

---

But, because of his zeal for his father's word in obiedience he went to the cross to bear our sins for us, which ultimately created the ability for us to not be at enmity with God.

---

quote:

---

I think this is a great example for us. also in hebrews 11, the great faith hero chapter, we hav emany examples of people who waited patiently for their Lord to do what he said he was going to do.

---

quote:

---

Can we as a community of believers try to inspire people to have the faith to wait

---

quote:

---

or is it really just about not making any waves so that whatever people think it is ok because we now live in a world where nothing really matters or is right.

---

quote:

---

Carl said something about not liking scripture quotes,

---

quote:

---

[how else can we guage what we think and feel to make sure that we are staying true to the good news of the gospel?

---

quote:

---

If this website really is just a site where people go to get support for their feelings regardless of what those feelings are then i understand and i probably dont need to be here,

---

quote:

---

but if a person really does love another person my experience has always been that he will try to reason with him for him to see his way of thinking.

---

quote:

---

I truly believe the bible is the inspired word of God

---

quote:

---

and that buried within its holy pages are all of the answers for this broken world we live in.

---

quote:

---

and i say that with love wether you accept it or not. JPF

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JPF SC:
Try to not be quite so offended by what some one else says and try to listen to what they are saying.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JPF SC:
obviously my posts are going nowhere with the people who have responded to me. Carl it is pretty obvious that if someone doesnt agree with you there points could not possibly be valid. You also have a foul mouth, which i am sure you will find justification for;

---

quote:

---

probably something to do with your un-diagnosed school experience i imagine.

---

quote:

---

Alot of people have pain and that is too bad, and i do agree that there are plenty of examples of some biblical characters expressing their pain to God but there also many examples of patientience with the Lord also. and my points are that we can as best we can run the race with patience cause thats really all you can do.

---

quote:

---

Carl you mention i dont know the people on this thread or their problems , i have read the thread . are there sections that hav ebeen hidden from the public, where are they?

---

quote:

---

So many people are conserned with the politics of what is said to them, never what actually is said and what it means. If i had been one of your little pet friends for the last couple of years would that make what i have to say more valid

---

quote:

---

or probably you would have tried to get me out of the thread a long time ago. Try to not be quite so offended by what some one else says and try to listen to what they are saying.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Moo:

God doesn't mind our expressing anger with him. People get angry with God expect something of him. People who don't get angry with God seem to have no expectations of him.

---

and to Kelly and others too

It's all in Job, all in Job. Goodness, what do they teach them in these -- URK!

Hello, this is C.S. Lewis. I have just battered David about the head for re-using (and re-using and re-using and RE-using) that line from the Narnia books too many times. (Yes, Alex, you're next. ) I appreciate the compliment, but please find another phrase. Thank you.

Um, right, but it is in Job -- i.e., Job's friends were the ones who said, "oh, it's some dreadful sin of your own" while Job yells at God:

Job chapter 30...

quote:

---

30:20 I cry out to you, O God, but you do not answer; I stand up, but you merely look at me.
21 You turn on me ruthlessly; with the might of your hand you attack me.
22 You snatch me up and drive me before the wind; you toss me about in the storm.
23 I know you will bring me down to death, to the place appointed for all the living.
24
Surely no-one lays a hand on a broken man when he cries for help in his distress.
25 Have I not wept for those in trouble? Has not my soul grieved for the poor?
26 Yet when I hoped for good, evil came; when I looked for light, then came darkness.
27 The churning inside me never stops; days of suffering confront me.

---

quote:

---

42:7 After the LORD had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.
8 So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.

---

I think there's a "holy mystery" here which perhaps needs to be lived, suffered and endured to understand -- Job was the one who accused God of attacking him -- then backed off once God said, basically, "I am God. You don't understand all of this" -- yet he was considered righteous for it. Perhaps even Jacob wrestling with the angel comes into play here -- perhaps too the whole business (which I believe) of hate being closer to love than apathy, or of "sinners" coming to Jesus more quickly then the "righteous" -- that if we are engaging with God, even in our anger, we are closer to Him than if we are breezily explaining His actions, or inactions, away.

David
Bible quotes are from Bible Gateway (KJV) © Copyright 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
 

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Posted by JPF SC (# 4183) on :
 
bessie rose bride , you are a fraud. Are you saying that because i am relatively new to ship of fools that what i have to say is not valid. i think that that sentiment of yours should show people where you are coming from. you probably think that because you have been around longer that some sort of 'respect ' should be showed to your posing. About your not liking bible quotes, your bible is probably buried in some box somewhere not having been read in the last 10 years. I think most people dont like scripture quoted to them because the bible is so inconvienient to them, they cant make what they read square with what they want to think or say so they chuck the bible. How do you call yourself a follower of Christ if you dont want to hear his word.,? I think it is very illuminating that your position is that i should leave the bible out of this. Does is not make you pause just a little that you are now going to become the person that argues against the relevancy of the word of God. Hey, go for it!
I kind of knew when i started posting things to say here that any attempt to be true to Gods word would be met with suspicion at best and at worst with contempt. But, it really does not make me want to back down. Jesus and the word are one in the same so if you reject one then you reject the other. THe thing that i regret is that by defending the word of God some people might think that i dont care about the people in this world who might be experiencing pain or grief. My heart goes out to them. I know it is very hard to deal with what this world throws at us, but i dont think cursing God is the answer but to have patience and wait for his blessing.If telling someone something that you believe will help them is bad and that they should refocus on Christ is not what you want to hear then i'm sorry.
 

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Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
I kind of knew when i started posting things to say here that any attempt to be true to Gods word would be met with suspicion at best and at worst with contempt.

Then why did you bother posting here? And who died and made you judge of what it is to be true to God's word?

People on these boards generally say "don't quote the Bible at me" because they already know what it says.
 

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Posted by bessie rosebride (# 1738) on :
 
JPF SC -

At least you added a few details to your profile. I'll be thankful for the little things.
 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
JPF--

Er...ummm. Where to start.

LISTEN!!!

--You're new. You don't know the people here. You don't know the way the ship works. You seem to think none of that matters. The prudent thing for you to do would be to just listen to the Ship for a while. Lurk all over, on all the boards. Read the 10 Commandments, Like any community,the Ship has its own culture, and can take some getting used to. PLEASE take the time to do this.

--JPF, I'm trying not to hurt you, or shake your faith. You have something that works for you, and have evidently been through a lot of pain of your own. __BUT__ it's possible to do all the right things, and still not get a good outcome. It's possible to rely on the Bible and/or on God, obey, etc.--and *still* have a horrible life. It's true. It's not what I was taught, but it's true. I've been through it, as have many people on this thread. Sometimes the beliefs that you are clubbing us with *just don't work*.

--FYI, this thread isn't primarily a debating thread. It's a safe space to vent our pain and anger at God. Most of the debate has resulted from people telling us we shouldn't do this. Please just let us get on with it.
 

---

Posted by heathen mama (# 3767) on :
 
JPF SC - nobody on this ship is going to look at one (unfairly interpreted) post and pass judgements on a shipmate. Bessie has provided over 1300 posts to provide us with a much clearer vision of the depth of her thought. You cannot help the fact that you are new here, but when you come into a community that has celebrated, doubted, loved and lost together, it is an enormous offense to barge in begin name calling and scripture throwing. Particularly on a thread where the hurt is put out there for everyone to see.

My own religious convictions are no secret, and I treasure those who have welcomed me here despite our differences. This thread in particular has been an education for me, and has provided me with an altogether new insight. It is raw, and pained, and true. And it works. And if it allows someone to find their way back to their faith by stripping it down and starting over, then it is exponentially more powerful than any of the canned "Praise the Lord" bumpersticker shit you've thrown their way.
 

---

Posted by sewanee_angel (# 2908) on :
 
I don't have a dog in this fight but...

JPF SC please consider using the return key a bit more.

Thank you
 

---

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :
 
re: JPF SC

Words fail me.

Correction. Non-obscene words fail me.
 

---

Posted by nicolemrw (# 28) on :
 
jpf sc...

bad form.

*puts feet up to watch the show*

popcorn anyone?
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Oboy. I never flame people ever. Everyone else can testify to that.But you just tripped my wire, buddy. Don't come in calling people's dear ones "frauds" and expect a warm welcome.

I had a minister like you. One day in a Bible study she expressed anger at God, because her husband had died before (to her knowledge) had got saved. As she was choking out her anguish, said minister went into a long schpiel about salvation and how our justice was not like his and how if we blew God off in life he would blow us off on Judgement Day. Tears were streaming down her face. I sat there with my jaw hanging open until I got the strong sense that God was shouting "SAY SOMETHING!" at me. Then I opened my Bible (which I know well, sonny)and started quoting the kind of things I posted above to you (which, interestingly, you didn't address). Basically my contention was 1. God HIMSELF allowed for statements of rage and doubt in the Bible (Jeez, the entire book of Ecclesastes is as cynical as a Woody Allen movie!)2. who the ever-loving heck were WE to place our comfort, tolerance level, and righteous indignation above God's?
My pastor translated what I was saying to mean, God wasn't bothered by our piddly lttle rage (almost exact quote.) Thus neatly killing my point, and probably further hurting the woman. That's what a hard heart turns into. Be warned.

Back to you.
1. You told us we should cut you some slack because the internet does not express non-verbal empathy. That is exactly why you should have watched your step. Read, re-read, and re-re-read Annie's post(s) for an example of how to encourage people to faith tenderheartedly. since she's gotten to know us , she had a sense of how to reach us effectively.
2. You are not being persecuted for your faith in Jesus, you are being chastened for ignoring His priorities. Jesus didn't say, "By this shall they know you, your fix on dictrine will be sparkling and you will have neat, simple answers to everything."("But I didn't mean that!" "But you damn well came off that way.") He said "By the way you love each other" You're last post says "You are all wrong and boy am I glad I'm not like you." Remember the place in the Bible where someone said just that? Hint: it was a Pharisee.Priorities of Jesus, straight out of the horses' mouth.

If i'm being harsh, it's because these people were here for me through one of the blackest ugliest times in my life, and they have trusted me (AND God!) with the blackest, ugliest contents of their hearts.If you can't respect that, you really should find a different thread. And if you KNOW that this board doesn't hold up Jesus ( not enough in the world for that on) you should protect yourself and get away.

But if you are gonna hang in, don't take people up for harsh language in Hell ( ) God forbid you are called to work in a prison ward at some point.
 

---

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :
 
HM for one happy moment I read your last line

quote:

---

..."Praise the Lord" bumpersticker shit ...

---

quote:

---

"Praise the Lord" bumsticker shit

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JPF SC:
bessie rose bride , you are a fraud. Are you saying that because i am relatively new to ship of fools that what i have to say is not valid.

---

JPF (Just Plain Full-of-it),

you've taken it upon yourself to judge someone on these boards that you don't even know, and twist her post into something that was never stated. That is very bad Christian form, wouldn't you agree? Let's see, I seem to remember reading something about love in an old leather bound book sitting on my coffee table.

What people have been trying to tell you is that you are in hell. Hell is hot, raw, and brutally honest. Hell is not a place for flowery speaches, debate, judgementalism, Bible proof texts or platitudes. Since this seems to be your style, please take your ass out of hell and put it into P-U-R-G-A-T-O-R-Y where it belongs.

Many Thanks

[Your code is also raw and brutal...]

[ 28. February 2003, 18:25: Message edited by: RooK ]
 

---

Posted by Smudgie (# 2716) on :
 
JPF SC, may I make a suggestion?

Why not start a separate thread to discuss these theories? I do not think that anyone would question your right to hold the views you hold, or to share them and discuss them in the forum of the Ship. Many of the people posting here would read and respond accordinly, I know.

I think the main thing is that this thread is not the place and you are in danger of derailing what was proving to be a valuable resource for many, myself included.

By continuing to do that, you cause irritation which can only lead people to disregard what you are saying, rightly or wrongly. By being sensitive to the requests of others to leave this thread be, you would be showing the humility and compassion which might well encourage people to view you as someone with something worth listening to rather than self-righteous and bombastic which is, I am sad to say, the way that you are coming across at the moment.

Please start another thread. Read the guidelines for Hell and for Purgatory to help you judge where best you wish to do it. Or better still, do as others have suggested and add to the "P***ed off with God" thread which already exists in purgatory to discuss a similar issue.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
When you can't pray, I'll pray for you.

This one sentance is one of the most touching, Christlike things I have ever read on these boards ever, and it is worth a million miles of exegesis.
 

---

Posted by Qestia (# 717) on :
 
No matter how many times I see it, the butt-headedness and poor spelling abilities of some newcomers never fails to amaze me. I can't imagine walking into a room for the first time and slinging around this kind of crap. Perhaps there should be a waiting period between registration and the first post?
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Oh and Chastmastr? Perfect, perfect, perfect. One of the things that has been bugging me is that someone who claims to honor the Bible blows off our references to said text. So please, JPF SC. say something, anything about the Scripture David has quoted.
 

---

Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :
 
[HOSTLY NOTE]

JPF SC: On many other boards, newbies are guaranteed a certain amount of slack by the benevolent board hosts. Here in Hell, however, slack is pretty much at the discrection of The Denizens.

Just in case you aren't feeling those flames, I'd say that your metaphorical "slack" is actually now a tension that produces a Hellish tone when twanged. Please feel free to keep posting in the same style, and plucking us a Hellish tune. The Denizens do so love an accompaniment when they eat those that are voluntarily objectionable.

[HOST BOWS OUT AGAIN, HAVING MIXED TOO MANY METAPHORS]
 

---

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Smudgie:
JPF SC, may I make a suggestion?

Why not start a separate thread to discuss these theories? I do not think that anyone would question your right to hold the views you hold, or to share them and discuss them in the forum of the Ship. Many of the people posting here would read and respond accordinly, I know.

---

This is a fabulous suggestion. I second it. And suggest you start it in Purgatory, where things are not so hot. And thanks, Smudgie, for being nice and helpful to the newbie when so many of us are flaming .
 

---

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
Quote from JPF SC

quote:

---

Alot of people have pain and that is too bad, and i do agree that there are plenty of examples of some biblical characters expressing their pain to God but there also many examples of patientience with the Lord also. and my points are that we can as best we can run the race with patience cause thats really all you can do.

---

One of the biblical characters who expressed his pain to God was Jesus in Gethsemane. I find that Bible passage very comforting because it means that Jesus knew mental and spiritual pain. The cross means that he knew physical pain.

God doesn't mind what we say in the short run. He minds what we say and do in the long run. Waving your fist at God is an effective way for some people to move past their dismay at the s*** that happens in life. It's actually much better than my reaction of refusing to speak to God.

One final point. Kelly is not a fraud, and Karl is genuine. I have read enough of their posts over the years to know this much about them. You show a lack of respect for Karl in misspelling his name after he has pointed out your error to you.

Moo
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
(He said bessie was a fraud, but thanks, moo )
 

---

Posted by Arrietty (# 45) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
thanks, Smudgie, for being nice and helpful to the newbie when so many of us are flaming .

---

I am not so much as to see someone fighting his/her corner like a terrier and throwing around ad hominem attacks to defend his/her view that we should accept adversity patiently and without complaint.

Not so funny if you are the one being called names though.
 

---

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
Kelly, I just noticed that mistake and was going to correct it, but you beat me to it. Thanks.

Moo
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
My apologies, JPF SC, you did address the Scripture we pointed out--but not in the depth it deserves,IMHO.
 

---

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by JPF SC:
Look at what happened to most of the proffets

---

...That's what our comptroller says every month.
 

---

Posted by JPF SC (# 4183) on :
 
i am very sorry for every thing that i have said, obviously i am not in the right place. I will go and find some other parts of the ship that will be more appropriate places for me to say some of the things that i have said. I really did not realize that this was predominately a place where people share the pain in there lives which i know can be very real. sorry!
 

---

Posted by Smudgie (# 2716) on :
 
JPF SC, thank you.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
God Bless you, JPF SC. I can't remember seeing such a thorough, humble apopogy.

And for my part--sorry if I got a little hot, but I have been watching this thread for a few days and was really involved.Guess I flipped out a little.
 

---

Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
Pax tecum, JPF.

(Teasing tag on) If you'd like a really good workout to introduce you to other areas of the Ship, begin a thread on Hebrews. I have a sense that you'll find that many Ship mates have rather a solid and extensive grasp on the scriptures.
 

---

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
Thank you very much, JPF SC.

Moo
 

---

Posted by heathen mama (# 3767) on :
 
JFP SC - thank you for the apology. Please feel free to use Hell as you need it, and get to know the rest of the ship...there are some real gems aboard.

Kelly, I think you were completely justified in what you said, and thank you for being our floppy-eared defender. Here's a carrot just for you.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
(crunch) It's Miller Time.
 

---

Posted by Annie P (# 3453) on :
 
This was written over a period of 20 mins. So this is a little late, but I hope that it still contains something relevent!

first a little administration:

quote:

---

Originally corretcted by Sarkycow [Severe copyright violation. I found you a link. Time to pay me double money.]

[ 27. February 2003, 23:50: Message edited by: sarkycow ]

---

Cheques in the post dear. Knew there was something I'd done wrong! Sorry!!!!

Ok to the matter in hand.

AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH
Thank you, that makes me feel so much better.
Oh, when things were going so well, I thought people were really having chance to consider what they were feeling while we tried to listen.

Lots of people have pulled your posts apart JPF SC so I won't. I think you get the picture but just in case maybe it's a bit like this.

I hate excercise, I always have. I'm really not designed for it. However, I know it's good for me and will help me to stay fit, motivated and keep the weight off. (ahem). So to this end I try to go running once a week. Now when I say running, I really mean putting one foot in front of the other slightly faster than if I was walking. Oh, and I wear trainers as well (cause it helps and makes me look more like those running people). In short, I'm fairly bad at it. If I manage to run half a mile I would be doing well. It hurts and it's painful! Sometimes I don't manage it the whole way and I give up and walk. (Shock! Gasp! Horror!).

Now there are other people at work who run. Not only do they run but they go FELL RUNNING (Sadistic N. Yorks, English pastime, which involves lots of hilly bits) for miles. You'd say they were pretty serious about it. This is the bit I want you to listen to. When I come in after lunch looking like a beetroot in distress, someone will ask
"How did it go?"
"Err not too well, I did run all the way"

at this point, the last thing I need someone to say is "tut tut" "You're not trying hard enough", or "Really? I expected you to hold on till the end, after all we should really dig deep and keep going. You know it does get easier."

Because I can't see it getting easier, it still hurts. Those replies would confirm my inadequcy and guilt about not being able to do more, and frankly would stop me from even trying.

But you know what? They don't. They say things to me like - "well, at least you went, it's a start, hey we're going out on Thursday, do you want us to take you with us." Or simply "Well done for trying."

You see? Gettit? These people on this thread do not need us who are "running" to tell them that they should try harder. They know how to run, they've been doing it for years. It's that it's not getting easier. In fact it's got so hard that something has snapped and they need to come somewhere where they can let it all out. It's called being honest.

This is not an academic discussion about suffering, it's about real people and real feelings. Which leads me to this:

quote:

---

inter net is not exactly the greatest place for people to communicate. no one can really hear the sympathy in another persons voice or the exasperation or the confusion.

---

What are you doing here? Reading I guess? What do you do when you look at the Bible or any other book full of heart renching, blood curdling amazingly descriptive narrative? Reading. Same difference. If you can't hear the sympathy, exasperation or confusion then I guess you don't understand the English language very well.

I know it's really hard to read this stuff. It's also hard to post it too, and I admire the honesty of people here. Yes this screws with your mind, but it also makes me think how I should helpfully respond to help people work out where they should go from here. Often it is just to sit and listen.

What else do I have to say? Only that I refuse to have this thread derailed by someone who while well meaning (in places) has done the very thing that people starting from the view point of God is love should be doing: Judging them.

As you have apologised (since I started to write this), get your arse into heaven where we will assault you with chocolate and fluffy bunnies and play word assoc games until you work out what's going on here.
 

---

Posted by Thumbprint (# 3056) on :
 
JPF SC, Welcome!

I'm sorry that I was so harsh with you - rationality in the heat of passion isn't one of my virtues .

P.S.
Smudgie, you are a saint
 

---

Posted by Annie P (# 3453) on :
 
sorry to double.

Heartfelt apology accepted - sorry if what I just said was a little harsh, but I hope it helps clarify things. Stick around and see where you can be helpful.
 

---

Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
(crunch) It's Miller Time.

---

Oh, no! Who spiked Kelly's carrot? A drunk bunny. I shudder to think.



Thanks for the apology, JPF.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
And Annie, I hope I am not embarrasing you with overpraise, but your post (the "I hope you dance" one) was like,"Here, have a seat,dear.Let me get you a cold drink and a towel."
 

---

Posted by Erin (# 2) on :
 
Well damn. Here I was, all ready to flame the everliving shit out of a newbie, and he goes and apologizes. But at least he left me this...

quote:

---

you probably think that because you have been around longer that some sort of 'respect ' should be showed to your posing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JPF SC:
bessie rose bride , you are a fraud.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JPF SC:
Are you saying that because i am relatively new to ship of fools that what i have to say is not valid.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JPF SC:
i think that that sentiment of yours should show people where you are coming from.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JPF SC:
you probably think that because you have been around longer that some sort of 'respect ' should be showed to your posing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JPF SC:
About your not liking bible quotes, your bible is probably buried in some box somewhere not having been read in the last 10 years.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JPF SC:
I think most people dont like scripture quoted to them because the bible is so inconvienient to them, they cant make what they read square with what they want to think or say so they chuck the bible.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JPF SC:
How do you call yourself a follower of Christ if you dont want to hear his word.,?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JPF SC:
I think it is very illuminating that your position is that i should leave the bible out of this.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JPF SC:
Does is not make you pause just a little that you are now going to become the person that argues against the relevancy of the word of God. Hey, go for it!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JPF SC:
I kind of knew when i started posting things to say here that any attempt to be true to Gods word would be met with suspicion at best and at worst with contempt.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JPF SC:
But, it really does not make me want to back down. Jesus and the word are one in the same so if you reject one then you reject the other.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JPF SC:
THe thing that i regret is that by defending the word of God some people might think that i dont care about the people in this world who might be experiencing pain or grief.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JPF SC:
My heart goes out to them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JPF SC:
I know it is very hard to deal with what this world throws at us, but i dont think cursing God is the answer but to have patience and wait for his blessing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JPF SC:
If telling someone something that you believe will help them is bad and that they should refocus on Christ is not what you want to hear then i'm sorry.

---

My problem with you is not so much you telling us what will help; my problem is you've done so in a manner that is pompous, arrogant, dishonest, insensitive and cruel, designed to diminish pain and suffering while emphasizing your own spiritual stature.

Yes, I went ballistic when I read your post, and I called you a silly, ignorant bitch, among other phrases. The truth is, you are my sister in Christ and I have to respect that, but I cannot and do not respect what you've said to Bessie and about her, nor must I respect your ignorant (and inaccurate) judgments on us as incompetent Christians. I am calling you on the carpet because I have hopes you'll be able to hear what I'm saying (and what others say as well) and LEARN from it. Please listen to what we're saying and, while doing so, grasp the mindset that maybe you don't know everything, maybe what we're saying is not wrong, maybe, just maybe, God is bigger than you think.
[/RANT]

Okay, school's out, time for recess.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
My apology stands, but what'd ja think of my first flame, erin?
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
I mean, you're obviously the queen and all...

And very thorough.
 

---

Posted by Erin (# 2) on :
 
I had only a little bitty four line post, Kelly. That big honkin' post was kenwritez's. I don't ever take that long to tell people to fuck off.

But your flame was good, if amazingly profanity-free. I try to aspire to that, but somehow my fingers have little minds of their own.
 

---

Posted by kenwritez (# 3238) on :
 
JPF, sorry I missed your apology, I was carefully crafting your butt-kicking while here at work, so I plead distraction. Thank you for apologizing and your willingness to stick around the Ship.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Ooops, my screen keeps cutting off poster's names. Ken, You were the thorough one. Good points.
 

---

Posted by bessie rosebride (# 1738) on :
 
Sorry, I've been off the boards for a few hours. Just seeing your apology, JPF SC.

I accept it and forgive. It's great if your faith allows you to wrap yourself in scripture alone and feel that all's right with your world, your God, and you. For us, that's not the case.
That's why we're on this thread. Hope to see you elsewhere on board, though.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Hear,hear. Come to "Sit Down" JPF SC, (located in Heaven)and we will give you cocoa and log fires and much chocolate.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
(P.S., I don't know why, but in one of my posts I assumed you were male. Sorry for not picking up on your female status. )
 

---

Posted by kenwritez (# 3238) on :
 
Damn, my first real flame and she cuts me off at the ankles by apologizing before I can post it! Sheesh! I was so proud of it, too!

I ought to take lessons from Erin in crafting succinct flames.
 

---

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
Thanks JPF SC, for your apology. (Nothing like trial by fire, huh?)

kenwritez: back atcha, babe.

scuttles off before one of the hellhosts catches up with all this sweetness and light
 

---

Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 
Wanders past waving her toasting fork

We've had pain, anger, shouting and tears galore; we've had newbieness; we've had flames; all of this is fine here. But the sweetness and light? People people, have you gone mad?

Get back on topic. Congratulate/adulterate ( )one another privately or in All Saints.

Viki, hellhost
 

---

Posted by OutOfTherapy (# 4081) on :
 
Selfishly I keep coming back to this thread (well, most threads actually) to see if anyone has responded to what I have written. I got pointlessly cross when I thought that JPF SC was sabotaging what I had been finding gently encouraging. Then I got paranoid that as I'm quite a newbie myself maybe people are ignoring me in the way that I tried to ignore JPF SC. I wondered if I should put more in my profile, but I hastily removed some of what was first there out of fear of being identified by friends. I regretted ever suggesting that I didn't need help in another thread, but also puzzled over the thought that hell isn't the place to seek sympathy so what do I expect.

I thought about complaining angrily at people rather than whinging (though I'm a great whinger I know). Then I thought I should take my own advice and realise that I'm really angry at God.

So what the f*** do I do about it? Oh and if I confess that I am lightyears away from keeping the 'Love the Lord your God' commandment, should I just accept my condemned state and give up?

One final question, did whoever agreed to let me be "OutOfTherapy" make a serious error of judgement?
 

---

Posted by JPF SC (# 4183) on :
 
My apology still stands. I dont agree with alot of what some people have said though. i do have this question, please answer back with a real answer, if this site is still not a place for discussion, then i would appreciate it if instaed of flaming me an answer that you would just e mail me back that this is still not a site for these types of discusions. QUESTION; Other than the word of God, how are you discerning God's will for you and what might be an appropriate response to what we encounter in this world?
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
(((OOT)))I'm sorry .
I was writing another post (that I accidentally deleted before the Apology), on which I described this thread as people who had cried themselves out and were drifting off to sleep, when in comes someone banging on a tamborine.

Shit, shit, shit.
 

---

Posted by OutOfTherapy (# 4081) on :
 
Thanks Kelly. JPF SC, why don't you cut and paste your question into a new thread in Purgatory? When people have suggested this thread is not a good place it doesn't mean this whole ship-of-fools site hasn't got plenty of space for someone who can apologise and wants to have a debate. Just click Community Discussion, Purgatory, New Topic.

OOT
 

---

Posted by ChrisT (# 62) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by JPF SC:
My apology still stands. I dont agree with alot of what some people have said though. i do have this question, please answer back with a real answer, if this site is still not a place for discussion, then i would appreciate it if instaed of flaming me an answer that you would just e mail me back that this is still not a site for these types of discusions.

---

This is a site for that type of discussion, but Hell ain't the place for it. Try Purgatory (as has been suggested) for in-depth discussion about this fluid faith of ours. In Hell, as described very clearly in the Guidlines, the floor is open for contentious and angry rants, amongst other things not fluffy enough for Heaven or the other boards. The point many people were making, aside from completely dissagreeing with much of what you said, was that you said it a) in the wrong place and b) without any compassion or attempts at understanding the situations or people presented here. However I accept your apology, and will certainly watch out for your name around the Ship

quote:

---

QUESTION; Other than the word of God, how are you discerning God's will for you and what might be an appropriate response to what we encounter in this world?

---

This is certainly worthy of discussion, but I strongly suggest you take it to Puragtory. This will firstly enable people who like the debates more to join in, and also (to some degree) stop the continued flaming that you will almost certainly receive if you try to continue down that train of thought on this thread. I am in no way trying to stifle debate, I'm just saying that it's better for all of us if it's started in the right place.

the ranters. You guys rock!
 

---

Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 
Seeing as RooK isn't here, but various posters on this thread are:

Pretends to be RooK, and makes a hostly note

Everyone - JPF SC has apologised, and apologised handsomely. Desist with the flames.

JPF SC, the Ship has many boards, to accomodate all types of stuff, from creativity to discussion to argument to hugs. Accordingly, please visit Purgatory, where you can start a new thread to discuss your ideas and questions. People up there really enjoy discussing and arguing about theology, the Bible, what God thinks etc etc etc. This thread is for expressions of pain and anger, and dealing with those expressions, not for learned discussion of the ins and outs of, well, whatever.

Remembers to end the hostly note

Viki, hellhost
 

---

Posted by Annie P (# 3453) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
(((OOT)))I'm sorry .
I was writing another post (that I accidentally deleted before the Apology), on which I described this thread as people who had cried themselves out and were drifting off to sleep, when in comes someone banging on a tamborine.

---

quote:

---

The upshot being that I am virtually not speaking to God, out of some childish defiance maybe. Reading this site is about as close as I get to even vaguely Christian activity at the moment but there is something that keeps me curious, willing God to somehow come through for me and prove that he was right all along. (though I shan't admit it easily)

---

The only thing I would question there is "childish defiance", as I suspect you are selling yourself short. Hanging on when you feel you have no encouragement, hoping when all hope is gone, wanting God to show himself righteous when all the immediate evidence is he's a bastard - I would call that faith. And quite possibly heroism.
 

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Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :
 
They say that in any marriage (for the reference to that word in this context, please see my previous post about a rant I had with God)...they say with any marriage, if you never argue, if you never feel a bit of discouragement, you are fooling yourself.

So it is with our relationship with God (IMHO). Some days are just worse than others.

Like Troy, I'm in a pretty good place right now, but it hasn't always been that way, and I doubt that my ups and downs with The Divine are over.

Sometimes I think the more we describe how time has healed our wounds, the more it may emphasize that another's wounds are not yet healed. It's not the intention, of course, and one always hopes to be of some encouragement.

In the end, when my relationship with God hits rocky times, it gives me strengthn to know that others will put in a good word on my behalf.

With that in mind, I pray:

God, who created each one of us out of great love and who knew our names before our birth, please accept all communication--the well-spoken, the confused, even the curses and flames--as a sign of relationship , and allow your presence to be felt by all those who are currently experiencing a distance from or barrier to you.

sabine
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Sabine and troy--thank you, thank you, thank you. I am going to go to sleep tonight beliving in a God who can provoke the kind of tenderheartedness you expressed.
(I really did go to my therapist and sob. much better now. Note to self-never post before therapy.)
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
P.S and Wanderer--right on.
 

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Posted by The Wanderer (# 182) on :
 
Why thany you Kelly (where's a curtsy smily when you need it?). I've not posted much here, as others have expresed my thoughts much better than I could, but I have been moved by so much of what I have read. Isn't it strange - sometimes knowing you are not alone really helps.
 

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Posted by Lucy H (# 3570) on :
 
Dear Nunc and others who feel this way.is some of the problem not so much that God 's promises seem to be broken[ I have some liliesof the field issues jut for starters] as the church's know Jesus invitation and the implication that there's a voice on the end of the telephone type relationship available.I feel like Im talking to an imaginary friend at times and have said most of the OP to God at times.
Adrian Plass's auto biography helped a Lot and describes this kind of a crisis .I also find Phillip Yancey readable too.
I'm not here as an apologist for God. And I know reading the right book is not all it takes to resolve these issues...kind of I hope a little here a little here might offer some comfort.Above all I applaud you for not pretending and / or towing the christian party line.
Much compassion on this thread and [ after a major rant at God ] I have come to the conclusion that all compassion comes from Him .
Because I can say so little to help the temptation is to say nothing .I hope not being alone eases the pain a little.
Lastly rant rave cry but dont stop talking to him and your fellow christians. I once thrust my bible into the heart of the fire, I was so angry.[Took a while to believe I was forgiven for that.]Leaving your bible in a box under the bed pfff.... not that I think any of you do .

Dear Lord Please rescue us who are deafened by your apparent silence. and when we cant hear you which is most of the time , give us words ad ways to help one another. Amen

I doubt if youre supposed to pray in here but what the hell eh?
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Wanderer:
Hanging on when you feel you have no encouragement, hoping when all hope is gone, wanting God to show himself righteous when all the immediate evidence is he's a bastard - I would call that faith. And quite possibly heroism.

---

I don't know, I don't even pretend to know. All I know is it feels like unrequited love and a stormy affair that goes wrong from time to time. Usually because I screw it up. And I have no idea why God would want to resume it. And sometimes it's simply too painful to want to resume it. Can't live with him, can't live without him, what is a human to do?

But you're right about knowing that others feel the same does help, make you feel less alone.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Lucy, you prayers are cherished.
 

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Posted by Lucy H (# 3570) on :
 
Sabine and Kelly Ive shed healing tears after reading your posts which crossed with mine. we gotta get out b4 we' re caght behaving well in here. Sure its not in the rules . lots of love -oops
 

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Posted by The Wanderer (# 182) on :
 
Ariel, as always your words struck a cord. At a slight tangent I am amazed when folk say that religious faith is a crutch for those who can't cope with life. Who else feels that there are times when life would be SO much easier if you categorically say God didn't exist? Because, if he wasn't around at all, you would just have the shit to deal with? Whereas, you are dealing with the shit, PLUS why have you let this happen / why aren't you doing something about it / why aren't you saying anything?
 

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Posted by JimT (# 142) on :
 
The scene: the garden of Gethsemane. Jesus is in agony and despair, anticipating the most gruesome death imaginable, to include bearing the infinite sin of mankind, betrayal of friends and family, and rejection by God. He is sweating blood.

Jesus: God! If there is a way, I beg of you let this cup pass from me.

God: We've been through this before Jesus. What part of 'you have to' don't you understand?

Jesus: You are the Almighty! You are the all-powerful! Surely there is another way?

God: You've already told people that you are the Way, the Truth and the Life. They've started writing it down; do I need to read you a transcript?

Jesus: I have done everything you've asked. I have been obedient to death, even death on a cross. Why do you require this horror?

God: You really can't read can you? Genesis: the Fall, through Adam all die. Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin. And don't get me started on "you've been such a good boy up to this point." You're telling me you're a rabbi and you never read Job? Please.

Jesus: But I fear that I cannot bear it!

God: Patience, patience. A few hours of suffering and it's over. Three days in the tomb and it's life everlasting. Look, I know it's tough but suck it up. Fer Chrissakes you're the second person of the Trinity. Suddenly you don't trust me/yourself? Why are we having this conversation?

Jesus: All right, that's it asshole! Next fucking time it's you down here you heartless son of a bitch! Of course I can read the fucking Bible. Of course I can quote every goddam line! Our minds are one, shit you know that. The whole point was to become human. A robot could scan and digitize the Bible and look up any apt phrase with the speed of light. I'm talking about death! I'm talking about despair! I'm talking about the lights going out and all the smart money saying they aren't going to come back on because so far, if you check the history you're so quick to quote no one has managed to fucking do it yet!. Hello!! Is anybody there! You're lucky I'm not in a position to kill you because if I could I would just so you'd know what in the fuck I'm talking about.

God: Thank you. That's what we needed to know.
 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
JimT--

ROTFL!!!

Somehow, that didn't make it into the Bible...
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
Sometimes I do say God doesn't exist. But in myself, I can't answer for others, I'm usually aware that it's me denying it because I want to, not because I believe it to be true. Why God puts up with this I really don't know.

When it comes down to it I really haven't a clue and don't know anything at all about God. I know less now than I ever did, and I only have a handful of memories that span a lifetime to look back on. They felt real at the time. That's about as much as I can say.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Wow.
Jim, I think you are on to something...
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Hey, Jim, that one's worth publishing. How about 'the real Jesus' version of the Bible?

It would catch on and a lot of people, I'm sure would find it very helpful. But you'd better stay out of the way of REFORM!

p.s. I used up a lot of popcorn reading this thread......
 

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Posted by The Wanderer (# 182) on :
 

quote:

---

When it comes down to it I really haven't a clue and don't know anything at all about God. I know less now than I ever did, and I only have a handful of memories that span a lifetime to look back on. They felt real at the time. That's about as much as I can say.

---

Ariel, for your honesty, and your searching, and your treasuring of memories, I honour you. May the end of your seeking be a joyful finding. Wish I had something wise and insightful to say.

[Bad taste tangent alert, to lighten the mood] There is something that might help. I don't know if you've come across this inspirational piece of writing - it's called "Footprints"? [/BTT]
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
Yes. I've seen it in a few places, with suitable illustrations. It usually makes me feel quite cynical, but for some reason just recently it's been in my mind a few times.
 

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Posted by Qlib (# 43) on :
 
God, how I hate that "footprints" thing.

I’ve stayed out of this thread so far because, although I can really relate to all the “Calling God to Hell" stuff, it's also been my more recent experience - since I started doing the Zen thing - that prayer does work: in the sense that occasionally the clouds part long enough to let a ray of sunshine slip through. You can't expect more, IMHO. You can't expect to be "carried" (whatever that would involve), since God has no body to carry you with.

I think religion is often counter-productive in dealing with pain. What I’ve found really helpful is this Zen parable: you’re rowing your boat across a lake in thick fog. Another boat bangs into you and you pitch forward, banging your nose hard on the bottom of the boat. You turn round to give the other oarsman an earful…. but there’s no-one there. The other boat was empty and just drifting. There is no-one to get mad with. You just have to deal with it as best you can. God both is and is not but, in this life, the rowing boat is always empty.

I think I hate the footprints story because it twists a great truth into one of those half-truths that is worse than any lie. The ‘great truth,’ I think, is this: sometimes, when you look back over your life, you can see a kind of pattern emerging. A pattern that justifies what you went through, in a very Julian of Norwich “all shall be well, all manner of things shall be well” way. And then you see that prayer maybe did work, even though you didn’t appreciate the ‘help’ you got at the time. At the time, the ‘help’ might have looked a lot more like just another heap of shit. Perspective is everything. And you can’t have perspective while you’re still in pain. But maybe this just doesn’t apply to some people. Maybe I’m deluding myself that it applies to me.

OK – I’ve drawn the target – fire away.
 

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Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Qlib:

OK – I’ve drawn the target – fire away.

---

Anything to oblige

The Christianity I believe in proclaims that we are Christ's body on earth - God does have a body. He has mine and yours and every other bugger humble enough to put it at the disposal of hurting, suffering people. That's how God works.

I liked the empty boat story; but of course there is someone to be mad at. The git who let the empty boat drift off in the first place, to potentially hurt and injure, without making sure it was tied up securely. Be that git God? Whoever, he deserves an earful!

You didn't quite explain, imo, why 'Footprints' doesn't work for you. Although it is rather hackneyed, I find it quite powerful, because it speaks of the reality of God's presence, even in apparent absence, which is something that challenges many people Christian or otherwise. It's quite a simple picture portraying a simple truth - The Lord is here, his Spirit is with us.
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:
I liked the empty boat story; but of course there is someone to be mad at. The git who let the empty boat drift off in the first place, to potentially hurt and injure, without making sure it was tied up securely. Be that git God? Whoever, he deserves an earful!

---

quote:

---

Back to the original topic: I once asked God for a divorce. I was desperate and in some pretty severe pain--and so sure that God was showering affections on others, orgetting about me. One night I said, "That's it. Get your stuff and be out by morning."

The next day, the house was strangely quiet. But I felt good. I mean goooooood . I stood up for myself and wasn't going to take it anymore.

However, after a few days, while I was cleaning the dining room, I had a profound sense that God was in the corner of the room. I remember thinking, "You didn't leave!" (with a real sense of relief).

God and I are back together now, and we still have some moments of being totally out of sync with each other (and some arguments), but I think we're going to make it.

---

EXACTLY!!!

Described it so well sabine - I am sure there are others here who also identify closely with your situation. ("I am getting a divorce!!! Get your stuff and go!" Ha!)

Christina Marie:

I just cannot believe you have been posting what you have, given your own experiences. I would've thought that your experiences if anything would teach you something about the nature of religious experience.

I forget who said it, but I think they are right: We would not be able to rant and rave at God UNLESS we loved. (And believed everything necessary to salvation etc etc.)

As Ariel said, we can't live with him, can't live a moment without him. And that's the way it is.

If it's any comfort, instead of giving something up this Lent I am making a committment: my penance for the 40 days and nights is to say morning prayer and compline... In the hope that maybe our relationship can... go somewhere else.

I hate being where I am.
 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
The "Footprints" thing usually bothers me, too.

If it's true, all I can say is that God is clumsy and drops us a lot.

It's one thing to say you've been carried when you *feel* it, and you have a reliable human support network, and things that occasionally go your way to make life more liveable.

It's another thing when any part of that is missing.
 

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Posted by OutOfTherapy (# 4081) on :
 
Another annoying one is:

"If God feels far away, guess who moved..."

AAAARRRGGGHHH.
 

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Posted by MarkthePunk (# 683) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by OutOfTherapy:
Another annoying one is:

"If God feels far away, guess who moved..."

AAAARRRGGGHHH.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by OutOfTherapy:
Another annoying one is:

"If God feels far away, guess who moved..."

AAAARRRGGGHHH.

---

The same idiots that say this will also, and often in the same breath, quote Job, Now in Jobs case - who was it that moved the goalposts?
 

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Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 
As y'all are referencing Job, I thought I'd share a song Matt Redman wrote based on Job.

It expresses a very hard sentiment, and I am not suggesting that it is something that everyone must get hold of, and if they don't they're scum/bad christians/whatever. It's (AFAIR) the idea Job eventually came round too, after shouting at God a lot.

The link is Blessed Be Your Name.

Hope this helps,

Viki
 

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Posted by OutOfTherapy (# 4081) on :
 
Looking at that song I actually quite like it, especially compared to so many other songs which do not even acknowledge that there are desert places or suffering roads. These songs must be listed on another thread somewhere...

What does it mean though, to sing Blessed be God's Name? To me it doesn't actually say that much. I know it occurs in a lot of songs. I'm sure there are plenty of awful people who have nice names that mean spiritual things. I could probably say their name is blessed even while I hated them or what they did....
 

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Posted by Lucy H (# 3570) on :
 
Jim T I was shocked by the daring of your post and laughed alot ....and thought. This morning in my somewhat conservative church Jeus seemed more real. [I'm sure Mary brought him up never to swear which is why the wrong version turned up in the gospels] .

but THANKS IT REALLY HELPED Lucyx
 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
Lucy, reminds me of a line in Anne LaMott's "Travelling Mercies", where she talked about doing something so bad it would be enough "to make Jesus drink gin right out of the cat dish"!



Doubt Mary taught him *that*, either!
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Anne Lamott and Jesus are such total buds; I love her work.

In "All New People" she speaks of the protagonist's devout but opressed mother going into the backyard and calling God a cheesed**k, among other things, to the horror of her staunch Catholic next-door-neighbors.
 

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Posted by JimT (# 142) on :
 
I'd like to acknowledge the comments on my last post and say that if it comforted some I'm happy, if it jarred some I can live with that, and if it offended I am sorry. Still, I feel a need to say what I do. This is the most meaningful forum I can find to work out the twisted humor, despair, irony, truth, and confusion tucked away in the recesses of my memories as a Pentecostal preacher's kid. I never got to take the pulpit and give my rebuttal, straight from the gut, so I guess that's what I do here sometimes. My last post was a little 'Gonzo' like Hunter S. Thompson. It's vugar, it's violent, it's fictional, but somehow it seems more real to me than real life.
 

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Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by golden key:
Lucy, reminds me of a line in Anne LaMott's "Travelling Mercies", where she talked about doing something so bad it would be enough "to make Jesus drink gin right out of the cat dish"!



Doubt Mary taught him *that*, either!

---

Don't know about that! Some glowing guy in a pair of wings and a nightdress tells you, an unmarried woman, you're pregnant with God's child, thank you very much? If ever there was an occasion to reach for the gin bottle, er... cat-dish?!

I'm betting the official church-approved Magnificat response came long after!
 

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Posted by Qlib (# 43) on :
 
Anselmina - I agree God uses others to help us. But I just think that reinforces the point that He doesn't carry us - and if He ever did, we'd surely notice. Being carried piggy-back by a divine (non/)entity is the kind of thing even the most abstracted of us would remark upon.

Anyway... sometimes there is no-one to help. I agree basically with what Ariel said about the empty rowing boat. The point is that shit just happens. And the shit is not fairly distributed.

Actually, there is more to say about the empty rowing boat, I think, but it's more a Purgatorial matter and I ain't in the mood for it.

Praying for all those here in pain and darkness, of whatever kind.
 

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Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 

quote:

---

The point is that shit just happens. And the shit is not fairly distributed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Moo:
I don't care whether it is/is not dumped on other people.

---

Moo, I have read your posts for years and am both shocked and deeply pleased to hear this frank confession. [BEGIN SING-SONGY VOICE] You mean you don't count it a blessing when you are called to suffer in His name, as Paul did? I love trials and temptations because it just means the Lord is preparing me for some great work! [/END SING-SONGY VOICE]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pyx_e:
the holiest people I know are the ones who bear great burdens cheerfully, honestly and gracefully. Not the freaking saps who are either lucky or do so little as to never actually have anything in their lives to be screwed up/shat upon. (Emphasis mine.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pyx_e:
... and I get kind of pissy with other people who think that if their lives have been blessed with a lesser degree of shittyness they must be in some special way extra holy or loved by God.

---

I finally left a kinship group because they all seemed to have this attitude. I felt that I had to quench my desire to be transparent in my pain, doubt and suffering. Actually, I was asked quite frequently didn't I "have any secret sins to confess." As if my life could be "blessed like theirs", if only I would "make the right Christian choices." (Another zippy phrase they tended to use to explain why they were so blessed with God's presence and activity in their lives.)

After I left the kinship group, I then just left the entire denomination.
 

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Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by OutOfTherapy:
Looking at that song I actually quite like it, especially compared to so many other songs which do not even acknowledge that there are desert places or suffering roads. These songs must be listed on another thread somewhere...

---

quote:

---

What does it mean though, to sing Blessed be God's Name?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sarkycow:
Saying God is good throughout everything is almost an end point, not a stage in the middle of the christian journey and certainly not a start-place.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sabine (I think, if I haven't totally messed up):
However, after a few days, while I was cleaning the dining room, I had a profound sense that God was in the corner of the room. I remember thinking, "You didn't leave!" (with a real sense of relief).

---

Sometimes I think God is seriously co-dependent.

quote:

---

If it's any comfort, instead of giving something up this Lent I am making a committment: my penance for the 40 days and nights is to say morning prayer and compline... In the hope that maybe our relationship can... go somewhere else.

---

quote:

---

[BEGIN SING-SONGY VOICE] You mean you don't count it a blessing when you are called to suffer in His name, as Paul did? I love trials and temptations because it just means the Lord is preparing me for some great work! [[Yipee]] [/END SING-SONGY VOICE]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
I once stayed in a guesthouse where the landlady was a member of the Salvation Army, and we got chatting, and her eyes lit up as she said, "Oh, I just love being persecuted for the Lord! It makes me feel so strong!"

---

Another strong argument for taking the tablets. See what happens when you miss your medication?
 

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Posted by OgtheDim (# 3200) on :
 
Hmmmm....as Ken so graphically has shown, long flames feel so good, but short ones seem to be more effective.

Can this be broadened on to indicate rants at God are more effective if short?

I find as my life becomes more oriented to the "Just In Time" system of living (get it when you need it, work on the project just before its due etc.), my prayers get more immediate but shorter. My rants at God are also more immediate and shorter too. No time to reflect, unfortunately, but lots of time to shout out, "Hey, God, why'd you let that happen?" Thankfully, because life is fairly busy, God also gives me a distraction or two before any answer arrives, if one does at all.

P.S. I prophecy the newbie will get flamed again.
That one seems new to discussion groups as a whole.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Moo:

quote:

---

[BEGIN SING-SONGY VOICE] You mean you don't count it a blessing when you are called to suffer in His name, as Paul did? I love trials and temptations because it just means the Lord is preparing me for some great work! [[Yipee]] [/END SING-SONGY VOICE]

---

I have been fortunate enough never to have heard anyone say anything like this. I am aware that some people talk this way, but I have been blessed in never encountering them.

Moo

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amos:
Gosh. Has he moved down to Devon then? Or is there one in every diocese?

---

One in every church. Have you never read the bit where Paul talks about the thorn in his side?

Viki
 

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Posted by Nunc Dimittis (# 848) on :
 

quote:

---

quote:

---

If it's any comfort, instead of giving something up this Lent I am making a committment: my penance for the 40 days and nights is to say morning prayer and compline... In the hope that maybe our relationship can... go somewhere else.

---

At the risk of trying to be helpful and failing miserably (swat me upside the head if that's the case), my priest once said that God really appreciates it if we keep praying when it's totally dry and unproductive for us - that God is getting something out of it at those times, even if we aren't. I of course feel free at such times to say to God, "I hope you're getting something out of this, you bastard! Are you happy now? Are you?"

---

ROFL Ruth! Not that I have *ever* said that, oh no, never!
 

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Posted by ChrisT (# 62) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nunc Dimittis:

quote:

---

quote:

---

If it's any comfort, instead of giving something up this Lent I am making a committment: my penance for the 40 days and nights is to say morning prayer and compline... In the hope that maybe our relationship can... go somewhere else.

---

At the risk of trying to be helpful and failing miserably (swat me upside the head if that's the case), my priest once said that God really appreciates it if we keep praying when it's totally dry and unproductive for us - that God is getting something out of it at those times, even if we aren't. I of course feel free at such times to say to God, "I hope you're getting something out of this, you bastard! Are you happy now? Are you?"

---

ROFL Ruth! Not that I have *ever* said that, oh no, never!

---

Me neither. I just wave my tambourine harder and sing in glee when things are going bad. Don't you?
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Back again, God.

I gotta give you points for creativity. What should have been a tiny little sore is getting aggravated over and over again until it will turn into a scar. How much lower do you need me? And--be honest, here--are my pleas for help provoking you? I ask for help, and you glance down from your crossword puzzle and say "Hmm...haven't discouraged, shamed, or terrorized her in a while." Or, "Hey, she's found something that makes her feel competent and talented---what's the quickest way we can deprive her of that feeling? "
 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
{{{Kelly}}}

Maybe we need to get God a book of easier crossword puzzles, so She can pay more attention?
 

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Posted by Nunc Dimittis (# 848) on :
 
Let me second those hugs Kelly.

Don't have anything to call you on atm God. But you better be listening to others who need you...
 

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Posted by ChrisT (# 62) on :
 
You don't listen do you? Just keep giving those crap 'it's for your own good' or 'it will all turn out in the end' lines. Well you're wrong. It won't turn out alright, not even OK. What will happen is that I will just have to get used to this hell and eventually will get so numbed to the pain that I will adapt to be able to live some kind of life. I can feel it happening already, and I hate it. But I know there's no point asking why.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Just one thing i find very impotrant turning out right will be fine---I can handle all kinds of dreck for that.
 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
{{{ChrisT}}}
 

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Posted by Quizmaster (# 1435) on :
 
Note to Nunc et al:

I got up this morning feeling very depressed and down and wondering why God is punishing me for having an alert mind that simply wont shut down.

Then I thought - Let's venture into Hell and swear at somebody. Pyx_e would be a good candidate as he brings anger into the most light hearted threads in Heaven....

I have just read the first page of this thread so far but I will return to read more. This has been some of the best therapy ever. There are others who have the same experience. That means more than anything when you are down. I am not alone.

Surprisingly I remember saying something along the lines of that quote at the end of a Pyx_e post:

“Why don’t you leave me alone and butt out of my life for once , go on just let me screw up a little bit and learn SOMETHING the hard way, you are such a prissy, nice God, jeez………..”

Well - He did!
 

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Posted by kenwritez (# 3238) on :
 
Oh Hell, maybe I'm the one who needs an anger management class.

Here goes.

God, WTF are You thinking, letting me have free will? What, are you stoned? Are you so alien or uninvolved with our lives down here that You don't see how badly I keep fucking up?! [smacks God] Wake up! [/smacks God]. Or...am I just lucky? Did I somehow draw the "Become unnoticed by God" special Community Chest card in this cosmic game of mortal Monopoly?

What are You thinking, huh? What is your game plan? Do you HAVE a game plan? Certainly not one You let me in on! How stupid do You hafta be for trusting me with anything resembling real life? I can fuck up a cup of coffee! You KNOW this! It can't be a surprise for You of all people!

Uh oh...no you don't! Don't You EVEN tell me You love me! I won't have it, do you understand? Telling me You love me does me exactly fuck all for good! How can You love me? Look at all this shit I've caused, look at these pissed-away opportunities, but my abilities aren't stopping there, no sir! I have yet to really miss one opportunity for hurting myself, much less someone else.

Look inside my heart, God. It's full of rage right now, and shitloads and shitloads of fear with a fat, charming dollop of lust on top, dusted with a fine sprinkling of greed, served on a bed of crispy sloth, with a nice side salad of gossip, a trough of gluttony, and an ice-cold chalice of pride to wash it all down! I'm mad, I'm afraid, I'm paranoid as hell and I'm really gonna hafta pee in a few minutes.

Why do You keep telling me You love me when Your love doesn't fit what I see as love? Where the Hell did I get these standards, anyway? Why do I struggle with the shit in my life that I do? Why isn't my life easier, more like a beer commercial?

What--is that it? Am I having so much trouble because I think my life should work like that of someone on tv? Like some worthless shit-for-brains sitcom?! Or, worse yet, some pettifogging, goat-raping ADVERTISEMENT? I should always be trim and muscular, a male model with six-pack abs and a twelve inch blue steel throbber? My life is sad and incomplete without a silk suit, a fat wad of cash and plastic, a .44 magnum and a hot car, trophy sluts pushing their siliconed racks against my sinewed arms and vanquished bad guys cowering around my impeccable Cole Haan loafers?

This is all boiling down to: I think I should be the center of the universe?

Holy fucking ego, Batman! I done gone and bought into some serious shit! No fucking wonder, Sherlock! Jeez, why am I smacking God when I should be smacking me?! I'm the true idiot here, not God, although WTF He's trusting me with His love to give to others is a brick topped mystery.

So...You do love me after all. You love me despite all the shit I put You through and all the fire alarms I ring in Your house at night. You do keep on loving me when by any reasonable standards You ought to've bitch-slapped my fat, fucked-up ass into orbit around Pluto by now.

You love me? You're one sick puppy, God. Thank you.
 

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Posted by OutOfTherapy (# 4081) on :
 
Kenwritez, I just can't figure out your post above. Are you calling God to hell, or are you suggesting in a roundabout way that people who do so are considering themselves the centre of the universe? I'm not doubting your sincerity but the nicely rounded off "but you love me anyway" conclusion is quite hard to take...

..when I'm in a pissed off with God mood anyway

(which is most of the time I admit!)

Maybe you could clarify a bit,

OOT
 

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Posted by Eanswyth (# 3363) on :
 
Yeah, what OOT said.
 

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Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :
 
I read it as saying to me:

“I need to grow up and change my expectations of my relationship with God. To stop believing the crap this world tells we that makes me dream harmful dreams and imagining lies to be true and that health, happiness, money and sex are what it is all about. To acknowledge the gifts he gave me and use them well. To stop asking what I think I want and looking at what others need. And to acknowledge that at sometime I will have to compromise and at least let our relationship be on His terms not always mine.”

That’s how I read what it was saying to me. I am kind of confused about the got thing though.

God only knows what he was actually trying to say, what did it sound like to you? And is he right?

P
 

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Posted by kenwritez (# 3238) on :
 
I apologize for the incoherence of my rant (wait; aren't rants supposed to be incoherent? ).

My rant was purely a personal one, fueled by a late night stimulus that suddenly untapped a reservoir o' rage. I wasn't talking about anyone else except God and I nor was I pointing a finger at anyone else but Him.

I indeed called God to Hell for being such a dumb sonofabitch as to give someone like me free will when I have this magnificent, full-color history of being a total screw-up, and how dare He continue to love me when I have proven myself so utterly incompetent at that very love?

Giving me free will PLUS the responsibility to love and be loved by other people and by Him is akin to giving a toddler a burning highway flare and seting him down in the middle of a petroleum distillation factory.

This is my attempt at wrestling out all of the above with lots of exhibitionist grandstanding, hyperbole, and operatic emotions.
 

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Posted by welsh dragon (# 3249) on :
 
Ken, I though it helped very much that your rant was in the first person. As far as I can see, you can address God in any way you like on your own account.

I think however that giving God quarter on this thread might be dangerous...and I think also that God probably doesn't mind that there is a place here for people to gripe at him...
 

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Posted by kenwritez (# 3238) on :
 
Hey WD;

I quite agree; I don't think God loses any sleep over a thread where we air our gripes against Him. I think this thread is actually a good idea, and I believe it serves a very useful purpose.

As for "giving God quarter" being dangerous, you have a good point, but any danger is as will be. If someone is unhappy over the quarter I give God, they can go fuck themselves; this is my rant, not theirs. Rants are not calm exercises of cool logic and this is Hell, not Purgatory.

This thread is an arena for an intensely personal and intensely emotional display, so it's going to be a messy place with lots of pain and rage scattered about and an absence of "oughts."

I have zero tolerance attached to a shitload of pent-up hostility waiting for any interfering busybody attempting thought control over my posts, over your posts, or over anyone else's, unless a host/admin is addressing violations of the 10C's or TOS.

I appreciate your caution and thank you for it, and if anyone has a problem or question about my rant, they're free to post it here, in another thread, or PM me and I'm willing to discuss it.

(BTW, this is not a slap at you, WD, nor anyone else; it's a clarification addressed to the world at large.)
 

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Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :
 
Can we stop pretending God does not mind or words to that effect. Far be it from me to propose to “know” the mind of God but I do know He loves us. When people I love say hurtful stuff about me ( be it true, false or a misunderstanding) it hurts. I am not happy about it and I do mind. To pretend that being hurtful does not hurt is the sort of shit that justifies any excess. Whilst I take on board the tenor of this thread and the very real anguish that has been expressed I will not stand by and agree that “God does not mind or does not lose ant sleep.”

I am tempted to have a rant about fallen (whatever that means) human nature always destroying the things it loves, always finding someone else to blame and always taking it out on someone else and enjoying the momentary feeling of god-like power that such outbursts generate.

The absolute saddest thing about his whole thread is that it reflects so acutely our condition, into which I have fallen, jumped, been lead and happily at times danced. That, please God our relationship with Him is a real one and that is more fraught than any on our human relationships and when, for whatever reason it breaks down it hurts in away that words can not describe. To suggest that when that happens it does not wound God is to deny at least the cross and at best our whole reason for being.

P
 

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Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Can we stop pretending God does not mind or words to that effect. Far be it from me to propose to 'know' the mind of God but I do know He loves us. When people I love say hurtful stuff about me ( be it true, false or a misunderstanding) it hurts. I am not happy about it and I do mind. To pretend that being hurtful does not hurt is the sort of shit that justifies any excess.

---

I think there is a major difference between saying angry things to God and saying them to human beings who love us.

God already knows what's in our minds and hearts. He sees all the garbage. When we bring it out into the open, we are more likely to hear him talking to us about it.

Human beings, on the other hand, know only a fraction of what other people are thinking. That's why other people's words can hurt so much.

One last point. God knows what we really mean, whether we exaggerate it or understate it. Other people do not have this kind of knowledge.

Here is a verse from one of Blake's poems;

I was angry with my friend,
I told my friend, my wrath did end.
I was angry with my foe,
I told it not, my wrath did grow.

I think Blake had it right.

Moo
 

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Posted by Gareth (# 2494) on :
 
Talk about "giving with one hand and taking away with the other!"

Wonderful! I thought! A place to REALLY say what I feel in a proper, blistering rant!

And then I see people are analysing the rants!

WTF?

I bet He is howling with laughter at that!
 

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Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :
 
Gareht I am (pretty) sure that post made sense to you but sadly not to me. Care to explain a bit, please.

P
 

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Posted by ChrisT (# 62) on :
 
God, I just need a break.
 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
Pyx_e, we've had that "it's not ok to say this stuff" discussion previously on this thread. Those of us who need this thread as a place to express anger at God decided that this is a sacred space to work things out, and that those who don't like it are welcome to visit other threads.

If you read this thread from the beginning, you'll find many interesting and poignant discussions about this.

God's a big girl. She can take care of Herself!
 

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Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :
 
Golden Key: And I am not saying “it is not OK to say this stuff.” I am suggesting that if you think that God who loves us is not hurt or indifferent to our ranting and raving against Him you are both wrong and doing yourself harm. Wrong because of the cross and harming yourself because you attempt to nullify the consequences of your actions.

As for God being a big girl and being able to take care of Herself, that sounds like justification for childish and hurtful behavior because She is big enough to deal with it. I shit on the idea.

I refuse in anyway to defend against the accusation that I am not in tune with this thread and should go somewhere else especially as I have posted to it eight times. If this were purgatory then I would suggest you come to Hell and apologise, as it is Hell, Bite me and while you are chewing, get off your high and might pity pot and re-read the friking thread yourself.

And who is this “we” that has made these decisions about this thread that makes its contents so holy as to be above criticism ? Is there a secret thread I do not know about? In your mind you may feel like you have the consensus of the posters on this thread behind you and they can line up and shoot me down if they like but I will not move to another thread and I will not shut up because you try and bully me in to it.

If you mean “we” then back it up with how you speak for the others. Do you have special mental powers that allow you to read minds? If you meant “I” then say so.

I take Moo’s point but it does not cover mine. Sure God knows us and loves us enough to understand and forgive but to pursue that argument does not point to His indifference to our cries against Him.

My point again for the simple and those in denial: God is hurt by our rantings against Him. That does not mean we should stop, it may mean we should be more careful. It does not mean that our cries are sinful, though it may mean that they can become so. It does not mean I think God can be damaged by our cries but it does mean that if he is moved to compassion it is because first he heard/felt our suffering. Shit if He is not moved by our plight WHAT is the POINT in JESUS. It is not rocket science.

P
 

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Posted by OutOfTherapy (# 4081) on :
 
Kenwritez,

Apologies if my question came across as being any sort of 'thought police' style thing. To have you say it was personal rant does clarify to me, and I don't think you need to go any further to explain it - as you said, there's no need to explain a rant.

My concern was whether there was within your rant a judgement on others posting here. In my suspicious nature I postulated a theory that said you'd just made up the angry feelings to make a clever point to challenge people about their self-centred attitudes. And while there may be a point for such challenges and analysis I didn't think it was on this thread.

Can you see why I maybe thought that? It seems like Eanswyth could see my point. I just wanted to stand up for the right of everyone posting here to pour out their pain at God, regardless of how irrational or self-centred it could possibly be argued to be. That includes your right to pour out your pain of course, so query over.

I can't claim to have much of a clue what God thinks about it.

OOT
 

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Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
Originally posted by Pyx_e

quote:

---

I take Moo?s point but it does not cover mine. Sure God knows us and loves us enough to understand and forgive but to pursue that argument does not point to His indifference to our cries against Him.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pyx_e:
My point again for the simple and those in denial: God is hurt by our rantings against Him. That does not mean we should stop, it may mean we should be more careful. It does not mean that our cries are sinful, though it may mean that they can become so. It does not mean I think God can be damaged by our cries but it does mean that if he is moved to compassion it is because first he heard/felt our suffering. Shit if He is not moved by our plight WHAT is the POINT in JESUS. It is not rocket science.

---

quote:

---

That does not mean we should stop, it may mean we should be more careful. It does not mean that our cries are sinful, though it may mean that they can become so.

---

quote:

---

By continuing to reinforce the belief that words of anger and rage are bordering on sinful, you're sort of indirectly perpetuating the aforementioned God.

---

And again I can see what you are trying to put forward and I hope that in the above quote you can see that I try and mitigate against any such suspicion by say that such communication is neither wrong nor sinful. But (and isn’t there always a but) just as in one sense keeping it locked up inside and letting it fester (Moo’s point) can be sinful (of course it may be us trying to come to terms with it and get it right before we lay it before Him) so at times can just continuing rage without any form of self awareness or discipline or without (dare I say it?) keeping it inside and considering it a bit.

However my point is not about the sinfulness or not of ranting against God. My point was that I do not believe that God is a block of stone off which this all bounces and to think so IS wrong (IMHO).

P
 

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Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :
 
Golden Key. OK I hear you. How about you consider that I am not saying “don’t say this stuff” ? I AM NOT TELLING YOU TO STOP YELLING AT GOD AND I AM NOT POURING SALT IN ANYBODIES WOUNDS.

How about you consider why when I say “It is about how this stuff has some effect on God” you keep hearing “Pyx_e is telling us to shut up” .

In short I suggest to you that you do not want to think that your “venting” is not words thrown into the wind but prayers that God hears. Either you are in a relationship with Him and He hears, is affected and cares. Or not (because you do not believe in Him or because you will not have anything to do with Him at the present) and you are venting at nothing.

To reiterate from the beginning of this thread. I rant at God, the world is a seemingly at times a shitty place but I am not pretending that He does not hear me or that it does not affect my relationship with Him. What is the point in ranting at something that I do not believe can hear me, is moved by what He hears or is so distant from me as to be a mockery. For God’s sake we only are able to do it because we love Him, and he us.

P
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Actually, when I read pyx_e's post I thought "That's what I want to hear. I want to hear that God is hurting over this stuff too-hurting over my hurt.That God cares."

So that's how I took it.

Remeber the old folk song, For Those Tears I Died ?
 

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Posted by kenwritez (# 3238) on :
 
Hey OOT;

Thanks for the apology, we're cool.

FWIW, here in Hell I am who I am and you can safely take my posts in Hell at face value, unless context pretty damn clearly supports my words being ironic or sarcastic.

I despise manipulation and I won't pretend emotional distress to score off on Shipmates or judge them.

Hey Pyx_e:

Thank you for your honesty and admonition. You have given me something to think about. My realization is that I have to get honest before I can heal. Being honest with God means telling Him what I'm thinking and feeling. Sometimes I get incredibly frustrated with Him because He appears to act randomly or unfairly, and at other times I despair of trying to love an essentially unknowable God in love, a language in which I am such a cock-up.

My frustration on the table, I know, deep down inside me, that God really is perfect, righteous, holy, perfectly loving, perfectly good, perfectly omnipotent. I also know all the mental pictures I have of "perfect," "holy," "rightous," "good," et al, are the grossest and most inaccurate of cariacatures and bear no congruence with reality. It's easy for me to see God as some prissy, pince-nez'ed, purse-lipped bean counter and yet the God who would send His only beloved Son to die in agony for me cannot be reconciled to that wretched and wrong image of God as a narrow-minded judgmental git, rather than what He truly is: our loving Creator, our faithful King.

Any fault in the relationship between me and Him lies within me and my human, finite, untrustworthy perceptions and mortal character. Part of exercising my relationship with Him and learning, like an infant struggling to walk two steps, is to acknowledge what I see and feel, even if I see wrongly. Honesty demands this of me. When I rant, I'm telling God what I'm seeing, and the one undergirding thought beneath every one of my rants, is the acknowledgement of God's grace in allowing me this, and that God is God, will be God, and I very much am not God and never will be.

God may be grieved at my rants, I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me if He was hurt. I think any loving father would be hurt at the things I've said to him. Here's the awkward bit: The nub of my ranting is I have to trust that God will allow me to continue hurting Him, that He loves me enough to call Him into Hell and pour all kinds of shit on Him in the name of my recovery from my fallen nature and my growth as His son, because if He can't accept me when I'm at my worst, then His acceptance of me at any other time is worthless and based only on my performance.

Much like a baby will poop and pee on his parents, who love him very much, so do I crap on my heavenly Da', but I pray the day is coming (and God, please let it be soon!) when I'll be "spiritually continent" and possessed of a cheery, Zen-like acceptance of the realities and pains and pleasures of my relationship with God. (Failing that, I'll settle for Him allowing me to continue my rants while His letting grace slowly perform its redemptive work in me and teach me what I need to know.)
 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
How about you consider why when I say “It is about how this stuff has some effect on God” you keep hearing “Pyx_e is telling us to shut up” .

Because you keep saying that it hurts God and may be sinful. Presumably, that means we should avoid it.

In short I suggest to you that you do not want to think that your “venting” is not words thrown into the wind but prayers that God hears. Either you are in a relationship with Him and He hears, is affected and cares. Or not (because you do not believe in Him or because you will not have anything to do with Him at the present) and you are venting at nothing.

To reiterate from the beginning of this thread. I rant at God, the world is a seemingly at times a shitty place but I am not pretending that He does not hear me or that it does not affect my relationship with Him. What is the point in ranting at something that I do not believe can hear me, is moved by what He hears or is so distant from me as to be a mockery. For God’s sake we only are able to do it because we love Him, and he us.


It's also possible that sometimes people aren't sure about God's existence and/or nature. That nothing they've previously believed, or been taught, holds water. And bad circumstances, not of their own making, come crashing down on them--over and over and over.

So they yell at God, asking if God's there, if God cares, why things happen.

Frankly, I *want* God to hear and to answer. I have no idea if She does or not--She certainly doesn't seem to.

If She's omniscient, She knows already what I'm feeling/thinking. If She doesn't, then it's about time She did.

I honestly don't think God is going to be hurt by our raving and tantrums.

Sometimes, fighting with someone is a sign that you care about the relationship and want to work it out.

It's kind of like what the poet Rilke said about living the questions--and, hopefully, sometimes living your way into the answers.
 

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Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Either you are in a relationship with Him and He hears, is affected and cares. Or not (because you do not believe in Him or because you will not have anything to do with Him at the present) and you are venting at nothing.

---

quote:

---

My latter return to this thread has been about (and I am uncomfortable with all the human emotions I am ascribing to God but being human what else can I say?) God being hurt/affected by it all. I am pretty sure he is happy that we are able to be this honest with him but that does not negate the fact that it does in some unknowable to me way infringe on him.

---

quote:

---

that it's ok for "that bastard in the sky" to hurt ME, but not ok for me to lament about it and punch him back.

---

In no way have I ever even implied that. Not least becasue I do not concieve of God as "that bastard in teh sky." This recent run of posts has been started by my contention with WD and Kenwritez about Him “not minding” or “losing any sleep” over this form of communication.

As part of the way in which we communicate with someone (something?) we love it strikes me as perfectly valid healthy and at times appropriate.

I like the way Ken’s idea (an extension of Moo’s) moves us on that: God knows how we feel, is pleased that we express ourselves honestly to Him, sacrifices His majesty to bear our pain and in this act of Love helps in our healing, to all this yes.

That at times this whole process seems to have within in it no sense of healing, true communication or any reciprocation seems obvious also. It would be churlish of me to mouth any of the unhelpful platitudes about “who moved” and about the nature of humanity making real communication almost impossible.

However I do ask the question that if at times we can not feel any sense of God does He at times not feel any sense of you or me. For me I know the answer to be truly yes, yes at times I want nothing to do with God in my head heart or soul. All this is a long way from His seeming ability to not feel in some way what we pray.

There is a Golden dagger in my heart that is God.
There is a Golden needle in Gods heart that is me.

P
 

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Posted by Eanswyth (# 3363) on :
 
Kenwritez points out that if there is a flaw in one's relationship with a perfect God, the flaw must lie in the person. I know that and it's part of what makes me pissed off with God. Why does He have to be so damned inscrutable?

When I go through a problem, I often wonder what God wants out of it. Am I supposed to learn something? If so, maybe You need to give me remedial lessons because I haven't figured it out yet. The same crap keeps happening over and over and it feels worse each time.

"We know that all things work together for good for those who love God." Okaaaaay. It sure doesn't seem that way. Am I ever going to see how it works for good or does someone else get to benefit? Stepping outside of my personal situation, when thousands of babies die of starvation in Africa because of evil governments coupled with drought, where is the good? How does it bring glory to You? It sure doesnt' seem like you care for or love them.

Apparently I'm doing something totally wrong because I can't find You. You're nowhere I look. And before You say it, yes, I know I'm not looking in the right place. No frickin' DUH!! If I knew where to look, I would. You've left lots of clues which lots of people have followed. Good for them. I guess I'm too stupid to understand those clues, so I wander around lost. And You just keep repeating the same things over and over, but not in any way I understand. You put up big neon lights but I'm blind. You shout directions but I'm deaf. You send guides, but they walk fast and I'm lame and they don't notice that they've left me behind. Please, please, if Your really do want me, cure whatever infirmity is hindering me or send some other kind of clue.
 

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Posted by auntbeast (# 377) on :
 
Hey God... what Eanswyth just said, ditto!

I give up, I am supposed to find you but... you win... hide and seek is over... I'm going home now I looked everywhere, yep you're a good hider, hope you hid somewhere comfy because I can't figure out anywhere else to look. Bye Bye

Auntbeast
 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
Auntbeast

and afterwhile, God comes in sheepishly to the room where we're all grumpily sitting around.

"Guess I made it too hard, huh?"

"DUH!!!"
 

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Posted by auntbeast (# 377) on :
 
Posted by golden key

quote:

---

"Guess I made it too hard, huh?"
"DUH!!!"

---

Some days the search for God reminds me of a game we used to play at church camp. We always played it on a day when the staff needed a couple of hours off but the kids had to be amused. It was called Safari.

All the staff would head off into the woods (on our safe property) and the kids would have to go around and find the staff, each of whom had declared themselves an animal and hid accordingly. The cabin of kids who found the most "animals on safari" won. The kids had a ball and the staff got to relax for a while in their hiding places.

One year a particularly enthusiastic staff member decided to be a salamander. He hid himeslf under some leaves behind a dead log. He was also wearing camoflage gear. None of the kids found him, he fell asleep, and wandered out of the bush a couple of hours later wondering why no one had blown the whistle to end the game.

I keep waiting for God to wander out of the bushes, I don't think He heard me blow the whistle that the game is over and I give up.

All good things,
Auntbeast.
 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
...and sometimes, the search feels like a "snipe hunt".

That's a kind of hazing/joke played on new people (at camp, for instance). You're sent out to find/capture a non-existent snipe bird.

The purpose is to get the new people royally lost and embarassed, while the senior people watch from a distance and laugh.

And actually, there is such a thing as a snipe bird, but it's not involved in the hunt.
 

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Posted by Nunc Dimittis (# 848) on :
 
What exactly IS a snipe bird?

Pyx_e, your post is beautiful. Thankyou.
 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
Nunc, they include sandpipers and their relatives.

Snipe bird info
 

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Posted by DaveC (# 155) on :
 
I haven't posted here before because I've never felt bad enough, but now I feel I really have hit rock bottom, so you'd better be listening, God.

All my life I've been trying to do your thing - going to church, praying, helping other people, trying to make his world just a bit more bearable. I don't say I've always done it right - there's plenty of times I've screwed up. But when I look at where it's got me - my home a borrowed room in someone else's house, no way of earning any sort of living, every thing I've ever tried a total failure - I start to wish I'd never heard of you. You talk of giving us life in all its fullness, but all I get is life in all its emptiness and futility. You keep dangling the promise of a better life in front of me, but when I reach out to take it, you whip it away so that I fall flat on my face, and you can have a bloody good laugh. Now I don't even bother reaching out, as I know whatever you offer will always be just out of reach. I can see the oases shimmering in the distance, but however hard I try to move towards them I know I'll remain lost in the desert. Anytime I go somewhere, I go on my own, because there's no-one around to share life's great adventure, and after a while I get so bored with myself that I stop trying to be excited. So now I spend all day in my room letting out silent screams of rage and frustration, and no-one can hear me. I fill my day with meaningless activity in a vain attempt to keep the boredom away, but each night I go to bed with the same black thoughts rattling around my brain so loud that I can't sleep. I've just about had enough - one day you'll turn around to look for me, and I won't be there. I'll have turned away from you to work out my own damnation in a world of chaos and lies. And what will you do then? Shrug your shoulders as another one falls away, and carry on your own sweet way with those sheep you can fit into your green pastures, while the rest of us are left to wander in the wilderness, without a home, without a pathway, without hope.
 

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Posted by Lucy H (# 3570) on :
 
Dave C I think it won't always feel this way . And your choices have not gone un noticed I'm sure.Does it help to know that if I who am evil know that I want you to be comforted how much more does your Father in heaven want it excuse cheesy paraphrase]. Adrian Plass who saved me from complete apostasy says' Nothing is wasted.' By God he meant. I am the other side of the world, so how can you tell I care? Only because I say so. Sometimes that's all we get to go on from God too. Don't know why, but at least He says so if indeed Jesus is his express image as Paul says.Jesus never said 'get over it 'to anyone and if he was on earth I would tell Him about you and He would do something. None of us knows why its not that easy now. I will tell him about you of course... and pray.
 

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Posted by ChrisT (# 62) on :
 
Singularly unhelpful, LucyH, but you meant well. And maybe that's the problem. You meant well according to what you understand, according to what you know.

Dave, mate, give me an address and I'll send you beer money.
 

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Posted by Karl - Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
Yep. And if you want a trip over t'pennines I can show you some good hostelries wherein to part with said.
 

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Posted by kenwritez (# 3238) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChrisT:
Dave, mate, give me an address and I'll send you beer money.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChrisT:
Singularly unhelpful, LucyH, but you meant well. And maybe that's the problem. You meant well according to what you understand, according to what you know.

---

Unfortunately that's all I have - meaning well. It was an offering not a solutionn And btw ouch!

[Meaning well does not excuse non-use of preview post.]

[ 12. April 2003, 00:14: Message edited by: sarkycow ]
 

---

Posted by caz667 (# 3026) on :
 
my first post in hell and I'm SCARED!

I got up out of bed tonight because I was feeling panicky and wanting to harm myself and because right now I have no idea what God is doing with me but it doesn't feel like sweet salvation.

I've spent about an hour reading this thread with so many emotions but what I want to say is this: the posts that brought some peace, some sanity, some support and some love into this dark room and *even* seemed to usher in the presence of the Almighty a little tiny bit were the ones that were the most honest, vitriolic and tenacious toward Him.

The ones telling me to breathe deeply, look up to my Artexed ceiling, read obscure bits of the Bible or take a good long look at my theology were the ones that made me want to go to the knife drawer right now.

Luckily for me, there were more of the former.

So thankyou for letting me glimpse and eavesdrop. Maybe another night I'll rant more. Tonight I'm just going back to bed now unharmed.


 

---

Posted by kenwritez (# 3238) on :
 
Welcome to Hell, caz! (And yes, I mean that in the nicest way. )

I think this is a great thread, and I'm proud of my Shipmates for posting here honestly and passionately.

Please post again and let us know how you're doing.
 

---

Posted by Nunc Dimittis (# 848) on :
 
Just to second what kenwritz said.

I am totally overwhelmed at how much identification shipmates have been able to offer each other on this thread. I had no idea when I started it how universal the feeling that God had buggered off was.

I hope and pray for all who have posted here expressing such frustration, that eventually we will attain the love and warmth of God in spite of all we have been through...
 

---

Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
Caz:

Welcome. Glad you found the thread. Please hang in there. BTW, I just sent you a private message--you can access it through the link to your profile at the top of the screen.

Nunc:



Thank you always and forever for starting this thread. Possibly the best one we've ever had. If you'll pardon the imagery, you created an opportunity for us to lance our boils.
 

---

Posted by auntbeast (# 377) on :
 
Ditto to golden key.

It really does make a difference to know that other people have felt just a "buggered off on" by God as I have. When it feels like God is on vacation somewhere sunny sipping Daquiri's, there are still God's people around doing what God is not. Sort of like Holy vacation coverage.

If God really is about love and community then I suppose that God is not completely missing in action if people are still around taking care of each other.

Many thanks to all who have posted here and made me feel less alone.

All good things,
Auntbeast

P.S. Caz, good to hear you are back in bed and unharmed. You will find others here on these boards who have gone in and out of the desire to hurt themselves and who have wrestled with, and continue to wrestle with a myriad of things. Welcome to the ship and welcome to hell!
 

---

Posted by Smudgie (# 2716) on :
 
[TANGENT]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lucy H:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChrisT:
Singularly unhelpful, LucyH, but you meant well. And maybe that's the problem. You meant well according to what you understand, according to what you know.

---

Unfortunately that's all I have - meaning well. It was an offering not a solutionn And btw ouch!

---

Chris, I am really sorry but I am going to have to say something here, I can't just let this pass.

I know that it has been expressed earlier in this thread that people should be allowed to rant without shipmates trying to offer advice or discuss, and that is fair enough. I am in no way questioning that as the way this thread should run - how could I?

Sometimes, though, it is hard to read all this hurt and anguish and say nothing; to hold back from wanting to put an arm round a shoulder and try, however clumsily, to comfort; to run the risk of seeming heartless and uncaring and like that God which people are describing as oblivious to their cries or like those well-known "friends" who suddenly disappear at the first sign of being needed.

How do I ever know what is going to be the right thing to say and what is going to be unhelpful? I cannot - nobody can. I can only go by what I know and what I understand, whatever that may be.

Yes, perhaps I should stay silent. Yet that's not always the right thing either, and sometimes tentatively reaching out to someone in pain takes more guts than I have. Dare I say that for all of us, when we are hurting, it is easy to forget or even choose to ignore that others have feelings too?

Perhaps you could have conveyed the same message as "I personally am too hurt and angry for that analogy to be meaningful, but thanks for caring." Because just maybe that would make the difference next time, when Lucy's words may just be the message from God which someone - not you, perhaps, but someone else - just needs to hear and she holds back from saying them because caring is a risk.

Sorry, this is probably unhelpful too.
[/TANGENT]
 

---

Posted by ChrisT (# 62) on :
 
No, you're right Smudgie. I was off-beam with my comment and lashed out at Lucy. I have, in fact, PMd her earlier in the week apologising for this and hopefully it is sorted.

However I hope you understand where I am coming from. I am not for one minute suggesting that we are not to reach out to each other with comfort or compassion, but rather that the best expression of that is not in words. And it certainly, at least for me, is not in the pious and innappropriate words I have heard many times from 'well meaning' people.

Maybe I just need to learn how to take things better
 

---

Posted by Nunc Dimittis (# 848) on :
 

quote:

---

you created an opportunity for us to lance our boils.

---

Ewwwwwwwwww!
 

---

Posted by OutOfTherapy (# 4081) on :
 
Enjoyed it did you? My totally fucked-up evening. Cheers. And those followers of yours? Completely fucking useless... I guess you should just nuke us all - go on, go ahead. Get the lemmings all blasted - 'oh nooo' then that 54321 countdown and oblivion.

Oh, and I know it wasn't much suffering as Good Fridays go. Completely my own fault I'm sure. One stupid mistake after another. So much for relaxing a bit. If I don't do everything to organise everything including myself it all just falls to bits.

And why am I even talking to you? What the fuck do you care? You dumb dimwit incompetent crazy rabbit owning brat you!

OOT
 

---

Posted by welsh dragon (# 3249) on :
 
So, there I was, sitting very glumly in the Maundy Thursday happy Christian meal. And I thought with relief of this thread. You bastard, I thought. Everyone I love is dead. I would have been so happy to have had a family of my own to love and care for. I have so much love to give. And all I really want is someone I can love who will love me back a little. And I don't see what more I can do to help that along. I have tried *so* hard to do the right thing, I have followed the way best I could back to you.

I have changed traditions to be closer to you. I have put up with gossip and insults and little rejections and some very boring sermons (not if I can help it though re the last one). I have joined fellowship groups and pastorate groups and I have sat through evenings of Christian nice chat, just like I am doing now. I have even started waving my hands in the air again.

And what do you do? You leave me stranded on my own, trudging off to look after other people's problems all day, smiling and consoling and martialling resources and landing exhausted in a prayer meeting in the evening - and then facing a lonely house and a slew of disappointed hopes at home. All I want is someone I can love, someone who can understand how important you are to me, someone that I can share my hopes and dreams with. Why on earth is that so hard? Why did you make me like this then? I wasn't made to be alone. I wasn't made to be happy in a relationship with someone who can't understand why I want to go to church either. And I want someone to buy silly little presents for and share jokes with.

And so I struggle on, trying to do the Christian thing, trying not to look desperate - though I might feel desperate sometimes, trying not to cry in church - and sometimes failing - trying not to say anything embarrassing. And then there is a glint of light out of the faltering, choking, blushing impasse and the wasteland of first dates that don't come to anything and I follow it tentatively, cautiously, hardly daring to hope that there was an answer, and the response to a gentle knock is another door shut politely and kindly in my face.

Why is my life like this lord, I wailed (silently), and what are you going to do about it?

And God said (and I mean that metaphorically, I'm a psychiatrist, I'm not talking hallucinations here)

1) You have a vocation

2) You are choosing to ignore it

3) How do you *expect* to be happy then

4) And what are *you* going to do about it?

And my response was

1) To start dancing (it's okay it's that kind of church)

2) To initially feel really an awful lot better

3) To think, well, that doesn't really help, that's another complication, no no God, what I *really* need is....

4) Oh. Shit.

Anyone with any helpful advice on this one, advice is welcome.
 

---

Posted by welsh dragon (# 3249) on :
 
Okay, well if you post on this thread you get some really interesting PMs. Thank you for the kind and supportive PMs. I am feeling much better now than I was on Thursday night, please note. Confused and a bit tired, but better.

Re-reading that post, I felt it wasn't altogether accurate also - the closest members of my family are dead, but there are certainly many people that I love, a fair few of whom are on the Ship.

I was very much reminded though this morning of a time - again Springtime - when I had fallen in love for the first time. The young man in question had been rather good at telling me how nice I looked and was the most devout Catholic I knew. He also had photos of his little brother and sister perched on his desk. I thought this might be What & Who God Wanted For Me.

It Wasn't. And it wasn't what the young man wanted either. He went off instead with a young lady who had a bit more social cool. I was heartbroken and far too crushed to tell anybody what I had been feeling.

But I told God.

"What do you want me to do?" I asked. "Are you really there? My life feels as though it is worth nothing to you. I want it to have some meaning. I want to feel as if you are real. Send me to do something that will matter. I'll do anything. I'll go anywhere, India if you want me to go to India, oh, anywhere. Just don't leave me hurting and alone like this"

And as I walked out of the service I saw a poster asking for volunteers to go and work that summer in an Indian leprosy colony.

I felt that God was having a bit of a laugh really, but I also felt I had sort of given my word. I had been praying at the deepest level of my being.

So I went.

And when I was there I got interested in medicine and ended up training in the following years...

As for my first unhappy love interest, the girl with more cool married him but left him for another woman. He tried to take me out years later, but his idea of a fun evening - the Last Night of the Proms - was not mine, so I left it at that. I realised by that stage that we had little in common.

So maybe that relationship wouldn't have been right for me, though it was certainly what I thought I wanted at the time.

I am a bit concerned though at the parallels. Do I only listen to God when I am in the middle of a load of emotional angst? (Maybe)

Is going off and finding a vocation in order to put a bit of meaning into my life becoming a bit of a habit? (Pun on habit not intended)

Do I need another vocation - isn't one vocation enough?

Maybe vocation isn't the right word to use anyway - maybe series of expensive and emotionally draining hobbies is more like it...

And, please God, when you get round to it, please please could you sort out the emotional side of my life? I get the impression it isn't terribly important to you, but I'd really appreciate it...
 

---

Posted by Annie P (# 3453) on :
 
(Annie is about to get fried, I can feel it).

Somtimes it feels like bashing your head against a brick wall, one which reaches up to Heaven and seems like a barrier which can never be over come.

I've read this thread since it started, and again I say that it's been really difficult, words have failed me. I was thinking yesterday whether we would be better off giving stuff to God, even when we can't feel him or know he's there. Or are we more comfortable holding onto our hurts and pain, because we wouldn't know what it would be like without them? How would He replace them? Since we have become so used to having them around, what would we do? What would we think about instead? I find that increadibly scary.

In my own situation, things that happened 10 or 15 years ago still effect the way I see myself or think others see me. Will I ever be completely free?

My perception of God is coloured by the fact that I do truly believe that God loves me. I have thought about it as I've read these posts and I cannot believe that this isn't the case. However, I do not lord it over those who do not think that or feel that at this time. Instead, as I've said before, I will pray for you,listen and try not to judge, and hope that you can see it too.

My trap is that I seek approval from everyone. If I am being useful, helpful, understanding then people need me and will love me, right? Could anyone love me just for being me? If I was comletely useless, would someone still want me?

He saw me there, just me, no one else who was in that room. I looked up and saw him, looked into his eyes, and he smiled at me. Piercing blue eyes which captivated me, and I couldn't look away. He came over to me and took my hand and helped me to my feet. I could feel the strength in his arms. He placed a ring on my finger and kissed my hand. There, just then, in that moment I knew that even if I was nothing to anyone, I would be everything to him. I was his, and he was mine, forever. Even if I cut him into tiny pieces, kicked and ingnored him, left him for someone else, every piece would still cry out "I love you". Real love, not gooey stuff that goes off in a week or two. Not just physical attraction, the real stuff.

I don't know how that's helpful, but being single is hard, I've had my heart broken. But occasionally, when I can stop for long enough, I find him there and some how, for a while at least I know things won't be this way forever.
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Smudgie:
Sometimes, though, it is hard to read all this hurt and anguish and say nothing; ...

How do I ever know what is going to be the right thing to say and what is going to be unhelpful?

---

There is a story in Sumerian myth, of Ereshkigal, goddess of the underworld, raging at the light and what she did not and could not have. Her sister, the bright queen of heaven, went to visit her in the palace and was stripped of her finery and ended up rotting on a meat hook.

Enki (god of wisdom) took some dirt and fashioned two little mourners out of clay and sent them down into the underworld. They didn't give her advice, they didn't try to talk her out of it. They listened and they wept with her. And Ereshkigal calmed down, and Enki was able to rescue the body of her sister (Inanna). And the light returned to heaven.

This thread has reminded me of that in many places. I could not have posted when I first felt a sense of estrangement from God. I was much too bitter, and furious, and I hated him. There is some guilt involved in all of this of course. At some stage in your spiritual life you almost certainly feel that you probably shouldn't think this way. But what is coming to the fore is salt-in-the-wound, ugly, excoriating, uncivilized, raw honesty. That honesty is the only way out of the desolate, dark palace of the underworld. If you lie to yourself you will stay there much longer.

Here, well-meaning advice is simply irrelevant, and mostly meaningless. More than one person has said on this thread that it wasn't the advice or the pious comments that helped, but hearing the cries of others. Enki's little mourners in practical action. The desire to reach out and comfort others is an excellent one. But there are times when, like giving someone a hot sweet cup of tea after an accident, it may not be the right, or the best, thing to do. If people on this thread are raging at the light, there's nothing you can do for them except listen. Telling them that the light is beautiful is not what they want to hear right now.
 

---

Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
Ariel

To all of us in pain:

To God:

To make this properly hellish, please assume that I've inserted a long string of bad words.
 

---

Posted by auntbeast (# 377) on :
 
Posted by Ariel

quote:

---

There is a story in Sumerian myth, of Ereshkigal

---

Thanks for the reminder of this myth. It is one of my absolute favourites, one which I spent a lot of time with a while ago. I was always struck with how Inana had left instructions with her assistant (whose name escapes me) that if she was not back in a certain period of time to go to Enki for help, and Enki sending the mourners to Ereshkigal, saving Inana. It intrigues me to examine where in my own story I play all the characters in one way or another, then to look again at my story and see how other people have been all the players. WHen I am most choked at and abandoned by God I wonder whether what I need are some little mourners to validate my anger and pain but what I want is Enki to blast the hell out of the underworld and bail me out. So many aspects of this story to consider again, a very good one to think on over Easter.

Hang in there all.

Auntbeast
 

---

Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
Re the "little mourners":

I'm reminded of the little "worry dolls" from Latin American cultures. As I understand the practice, you tell a doll your troubles before you go to bed--and then you can relax and sleep, because *you* aren't carrying your troubles.

Sort of like a therapy session.

Pictures of worry dolls
 

---

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :
 
..... but cheaper

P
 

---

Posted by Peronel (# 569) on :
 
Okay, God, we know we're evil. We get it already. We know you hate us. You've made that so abundantly clear that we'd have to be even more stupid than we are not to get it.

We're so sorry we dared to think that that might not be the case, that we dared to hope. The arrogance: thinking that just maybe I could be acceptable to you, inspite of all the evidence to the contrary.

But please, please, please stop hurting people/things we care for? We promise not to bother you ever again, just please stop. We know that we sully the sacraments just by our presence. We know that we are unredeemably evil, that we turned and walked away from you, that there is no forgiveness for that. But please stop hurting/killing the innocent. Because it's not fair.

Peronel
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
((((Peronel))))
 

---

Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
((((Peronel))))

---

quote:

---

We know that we are unredeemably evil, that we turned and walked away from you, that there is no forgiveness for that. But please stop hurting/killing the innocent. Because it's not fair.

---

quote:

---

I refuse to think of myself as unredeemably evil, unless you meant that in a spirit of sarcasm.

---

I'm sorry, Ariel. I meant me. I have a tendency to use the plural to refer to myself when I'm particularly overwhelmed, and I forgot to edit it out.

Didn't mean to refer to you, or to people in general at all.

I meant me.

And I wasn't being sarcastic.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Ariel--I think Peronel was being scathingly sarcastic.
 

---

Posted by Nunc Dimittis (# 848) on :
 

quote:

---

I'm sorry, Ariel. I meant me. I have a tendency to use the plural to refer to myself when I'm particularly overwhelmed, and I forgot to edit it out.

---

Hey. The tendency to use "we" to express individual grief/sorrow/pain/other emotions has plenty of precedent... Check the amount of poetry written.

It makes me sad though, to think that you think yourself irredeemably evil. I wonder what sad sadistic bastards have imbued you with that notion, because it is so false... Noone is irredeemable, not even the Devil (and he's got to be worse than you).

((hugs)) for you; I sincerely hope your experience will change to one where you are lying in the embrace of a forgiving and loving God...
 

---

Posted by The Wanderer (# 182) on :
 
One can also use "we" because one is royalty. We certainly do.

Peronel, we believe you may be related to us. Your Great Aunt Catherine was our Second Cousin Aldric's half sister, through a morganatic alliance. Therefore your blood is as blue as ours, and you are entitled to use the plural. Step forward child, that we might break a bottle of champagne over your head.
 

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Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 
You know God, a person could seriously go off you. Especially with the steady grind down that you seem to specialize in.

So what's your excuse? That it's a result of human sin? Sorry, don't buy it. I mean, yes, tangentially I can see that might possibly excuse the crap that's been going on for the last two months. But it doesn't explain/excuse the crap over this last week. That's not due to human sin.

Oh right, shit happens? Yeah, well it can stop bloody happening to me. Go pick on somebody else for a change.

All-powerful God (don't even get me started on the problems I have with that) and yet you can't be bothered to lift a finger to help. Would giving me a break just once in a while really be so bad?

Viki

PS No hugs please, I'm British.
 

---

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
Remind me; what is it the British do instead of hugging one another?
 

---

Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 
Shake hands - only I can't, cause I might catch SARS. One can never be too careful
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
They pause for a moment in embarrassment and then make a light remark about something completely unrelated.

I have a hellish toaster of my own. It cost 5.99 at Argos, and produces slices of curved, wavy toast with a patchwork pattern.
 

---

Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 
You know what God? You can stop taking the bloody piss; fuck off and play with someone else's life.

Now.

Just.Fuck.Off.

Cause I don't want to know anymore. I don't care. I am not playing. Find another puppet with strings you can pull, cause this one ain't yours to play with no more.
 

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Posted by JimT (# 142) on :
 
Whoa.

I am becoming more convinced of the appropriateness of conceptualizing God as something that emerges out of the order of Creation rather than as the Person in Charge of Everything. So long as God is conceptualized as the Person in Charge, people are going to get really angry when things go wrong.

In the Old Testament we get the picture of God as a super-person with whom you can chat. In the New, there are other strains that God is a spirit or presence that can be sensed and experienced but not really engaged in a two-way conversation.

If we are the Body of Christ, perhaps God is latent in us and thus in Creation and is only manifest when we act toward one another in a Christ-like manner. It doesn't make sense to tell Love, Caring, Compassion, Health, and Prosperity to stop bothering you and making your life miserable. But it does make sense to do so to a God who is supposed to supply you with these things but instead supplies you with Suffering and Sorrow. Or allows you to be so supplied.

Instead of telling God to go away perhaps we should summon God from each other. It seems to be happening on this thread, and working.
 

---

Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 
Or alternatively we could not bother with the concept of God in any way shape or form.
 

---

Posted by ChrisT (# 62) on :
 
Viki, that's not a bad idea. Where do I sign up?

ChrisT
Society for Humankinds Abolishment of God (SHAG)
 

---

Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
ChrisT

I presume the theme song would be the Beatles' "Imagine"?
 

---

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :
 
........ it's the only shag he's likely to get this week .............
P
 

---

Posted by welsh dragon (# 3249) on :
 
Hello God.

Well, you know what weird little jokes you are playing at the moment. I hope you are enjoying yourself. You sardonic old Creator you.

If anyone has a moment to spare from being pissed off, do you think you could say a prayer for me this evening please...
 

---

Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
{{{Welsh Dragon}}} (in absence of a prayer smilie)
 

---

Posted by that Wikkid Person (# 4446) on :
 
A song I wrote to God a couple of years ago:

Who Are You Anyway?
-------------------
I know you're not like Santa Claus
Although you know who's naughty nice.
I don't say "I've been good all year, so give me this"
You don't have a sleigh...do you have advice?

'cause I can't help but wonder
because I just don't understand
I don't know who you are anymore
I don't even know who I am

I know you're not like Jupiter,
You're more than Zeus in one his foul moods
But some days you help, some days you smite
most days I don't get a reason why
Though I don't mean to be rude...sir

I know you're not like my father
Although your standards are almost as high
If I'm your son, I'm more prodigal than prodigy
Scared to come home and I don't know why.
 

---

Posted by that Wikkid Person (# 4446) on :
 
That was supposed to be "Though you know who's naughty or nice"
 

---

Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
God, I am so very, very tired.
 

---

Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
Tracks down God. Goes into a fury of kicking, screaming, hitting with a foam bat, and throwing paint balls.
 

---

Posted by sophs (# 2296) on :
 
Ok God. This is it. I am so lost and confused and angry I can't think straight. But i know one thing, i know that you are a bastard and i hate you. i really really really hate you.
All i want is to feel you near. to feel that you care for me, to feel that you love me. i want you to be the god i was told you would be: someone who comforts and heals people, someone who cares. Is that too much to ask God? is it to much to want to feel your love and comfort? Why can't i god? i'm looking for it, i'm searching for you...i'm crying out to you to come and help me...and where are you? why do you go in my darkest moments? why is it when i need you the most you leave me, you leave me to pick up the pieces of my "life".
Why are you there for some people God? Why do some people feel your love and others don't?
I know why you do this god. i know why you leave the ones who are hurting and broken, i know why you hurt people and cover them in crap til they loose all hope of some better life and just give up. You are a sick bastard. You enjoy seeing humanity suffer. you enjoy seeing people crying and pleading for you to help them. You like seeing them powerless and scared, you like seeing them try to trust in you and try to hold on, whilst you watch them slipping...
 

---

Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
Sophs
 

---

Posted by Troy (# 2516) on :
 
God!

Why is it that you only seem to take the good ones? Why is it that you only seem to afflict those who earnestly strive for you. Don't give me this blah blah purifying fire blah blah blah rebuking those you love blah blab blah preparing us for the afterlife bullshit. What I see is that one of the most tenderhearted, kindest, most enthusiastic students I have losing a father -- and a wonderful, loving, engaged father at that. I see a kid who could only talk to me about computers at his father's calling hours because when he talked about anything else he burst into tears.

I know you're there Lord...in the hands and feet of the people who love that family...abiding with those who hurt. But why the hurt in the first place? It's not right....it's just not right. Did you just forget all of the pain and heartache that you experienced when you were down here? You'd think you would have drafted up a new plan once you got back to Heaven....at least something where the good don't die young.

It's just not right
-Troy
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
Just reminding you that I still exist. I've been around for over 40 years, and you still haven't found any use for me. Except occasionally, when I get tired of the way things are and try to change them, you throw up a quick brick wall so that I'm back to square one again. Are you finding this amusing? Because I'm not. If you haven't got any use for me, do the decent thing and abolish me. If you do have a purpose for me, just tell me what it is instead of watching me blunder around in some kind of eternal fog. And what is all this business about snatching away everything and everyone I value? I'm not supposed to show any signs of enjoyment?
 

---

Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
Hugs to everyone.

(Assume insertion of Mandatory Hellish Thoughts (tm) here.)
 

---

Posted by sophs (# 2296) on :
 
Thats it God.
I.GIVE.UP.
now. forever.
i don't ever want to speak to you, or hear about you again.
you are a complete bastard and i hate you.
good bye.
 

---

Posted by welsh dragon (# 3249) on :
 
Hello again God.

Erm, I think this is the lull in the middle of the storm. Lull is good.

Sorry for shouting.

Oooh I wish we could just go for a beer and have a chat. In a none-too-overwhelming non-incendiary way. You must get so fed up of all this. I love you really you know. Does anyone ever buy you birthday presents? Or care about what your favourite music is? I bet you don't like an awful lot of the music you have to listen to. Clumsy choruses and dirge-like hymns. And we can't understand you or talk to you very well, and we blame you for things that are our own fault, and we are too scared to be honest about what we feel, when that is what you really want from us. And you put up with it all, and you love us to death.

Ohhhhhhhhh.

Sorry, God.
 

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Posted by Qlib (# 43) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by sarkycow:
Or alternatively we could not bother with the concept of God in any way shape or form.

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quote:

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I believe God is good. I believe God is all-powerful. And, I believe God allows bad stuff to happen to the innocent. Which is what I knew before it all began--but now I have faith in those truths.

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Gosh. What an opening post. May I take the little I've quoted and use it as a signature?

Peronel
 

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Posted by chiefssuperfan (# 4505) on :
 
Sure.
 

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Posted by Nightlamp (# 266) on :
 
Welcome chiefssuperfan to the Ship the guidlines for the site are found here and for hell here . Can I suggest you have a good look around you will notice that each board has a distinctive character so have a good read around.

Nightlamp
Hellhost
 

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Posted by Amorya (# 2652) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by jlg:
Amorya, please post again and let us know if you're OK or not.

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Ok, sorry everyone for that post. I'm ok, honestly - don't worry 'bout me. I was just having a bad night.

I'm fine – really!

Amorya
 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
Chiefssuperfan, you might want to take a look at the book "Survivor Prayers" by Rev. Catherine Foote. (Herself a survivor of childhood sexual abuse.)
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Nice post, chiefssuperfan.
 

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Posted by caz667 (# 3026) on :
 
Why is it the words "stop it now" induce such a FUCKING RAGE in me??????? I'm an adult in hell, goddamnit and I'll do whatever I fucking well like.

And now I'll be all British and say sorry. Sorry.


 

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Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Amorya:

quote:

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Originally posted by jlg:
Amorya, please post again and let us know if you're OK or not.

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Ok, sorry everyone for that post. I'm ok, honestly - don't worry 'bout me. I was just having a bad night.

I'm fine – really!

Amorya

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Thanks for checking back in. After I posted that, I noticed in All Saints that your in the middle of exams, so I wasn't so worried.
 

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Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
I swear I typed 'you're', not 'your'.
 

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Posted by ChrisT (# 62) on :
 
Shit, God, what are you playing at? Haven't these people had enough? Just one positive thing is all we ask. Just one word instead of silence. Just one glance instead of ignoring us. Just one touch intead of absence.

And while I have your attention, I'll just say once again; why?
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Amen.
 

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Posted by Regina Caeli (# 2343) on :
 
I'm sick of it. I really am. I could cope with the knowledge that it's always going to be shit, but it's the raising my hopes then dashing them again that I can't cope with. I just want to cry.

I'm here at work trying to be pleasant to people, and I really just can't keep up the facade anymore. I'm alternating between being upset, and being really fucked off and GOD'S JUST TAKING THE PISS!!!!!

For all the hurt, for all the pain, for the raised and dashed hopes, God; all I have to say is:

and also with you!!!!

RC
 

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Posted by sophs (# 2296) on :
 
Just let me give up God.
That is all i'm asking for now. I know I'll never be the person everyone wants me to be, i know i'll never be the person everyone sees...there is nothing left now god...nothing at all...i believed that it would change, even after yelling and crying and tying to die, i still somehow believed that you could love, that you did love.
Now i give up. I can't cope with this fucked up world any more, i don't WANT to cope with this fucked up world...
But in some sick way, you won't even let me die will you? My one fucking prayer and you won't answer it...
Why? WHY? WHY? WHY?????

why did every that happened happen? why did you let it happen? why? why? why? why?
 

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Posted by The Wonderful Nanny Ogg (# 1176) on :
 
Right God - you got time?

I know I must sound ungrateful for getting through recent months but things haven't moved on have they?

What happened to all those promises you made - about things being different? About things moving on? All this "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you a hope and a future"?

I mean I still have nothing - no job, money, home, love, marriage. It's all been taken away from me and yes, I'm angry

Seems the more I try and trust you the more you throw shit at me. Why can't you throw the shit elsewhere for a change cos I'm sick of being on the receiving end.
 

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Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by The Wonderful Nanny Ogg:
All this "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you a hope and a future"?

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Oh, you've been given this shit by people too? It's a standard verse given by well-meaning christians who have no idea what the fuck to say to you, and quite frankly, can't cope with all your shit.
 

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Posted by thegreent (# 3571) on :
 
BIG GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR GOD
 

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Posted by thegreent (# 3571) on :
 
its been helpful tagging along, reading these boards... knowing Im not alone...

Heck - one of sarkys posts nearly made me cry (if i could cry).... what is the world coming too???
 

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Posted by sophs (# 2296) on :
 
Fuck you God
More reasons to die are exactly what i need right now aren't they...
When i'm right on the edge you just give me the little push that will send me falling.
Is that what you want God?
Do you want me to die?
Would it make you happy?
Bastard.
 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
God,

you know I *want* you to be there.

But--at this point--it's mostly in spite of, not because of religion. Any religion.

The promises don't hold. The world hurts too much. Too much crap has been said in your name.

If you care about us in any healthy way, then you need to start straightening all of this out and letting us know what's going on and who you are. Otherwise, we just keep getting broken over and over--and so does our faith.


 

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