Thread: Hell: The Product-Driven Lifeless Cash Monkeys Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by pepper (# 3895) on :
 
You bastards. You cold-hearted, cynical bastards. What kind of nobheaddedly ignorant organisation spews forth enough bum fodder to supply the world with over 336 million unconfortable wipes - and then boasts about it?

It's one thing to offer a book of purportedly sound advice, but another thing entirely when your so-called viral marketing technique is anything other than word of mouth. It's more like an infection. You rely on relentless product pushing to religious organisations and have corralled preachers into your in-church advertising campaigns. You prey on the weak and unstable, insisting that multiple purchases are a core part of what is, of course, an essential problem-solving perfection programme. You use the economic unstability of specialist booksellers to turn "Christian" outlets into shrines to your multi-fonted, soft focus shitefest.

Did you honestly think that learning about someone who wandered around with one coat to his name for the best years of his adult life and your peddling of assorted sentimental mind jellying fuck-gibbery were somehow related? Perhaps cold-reading techniques have been recently heralded as a valuable addition to understanding the Wisdom of the Ages and no-one noticed? Or is it that your products fall into the "Successor to Millennial Angst Fundfest" market niche? Why is it that a publication claiming to offer a route to maturity is accompanied by a cornucopia of branded ass-muffs?

I'd like to suggest that you show some respect for your target audience by fucking off, please.

[ 15. April 2004, 00:06: Message edited by: Sarkycow ]
 

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Posted by chive (# 208) on :
 
Good rant. wtf is it about?
 

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Posted by moverly (# 4658) on :
 
Indeed, do let us know who's the big bad wolf...

On second thoughts, it wouldn't happen to be connected to the words Purpose-driven..., would it? (as in "Purpose-Driven coffee-cup collecting", "Purpose-Driven World Subjugation", "Purpose-Driven Jelly-Baby Beheading" etc...)

[ 03. March 2004, 17:42: Message edited by: moverly ]
 

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Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
I agree, Precious Moments is evil.
 

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Posted by Balaam (# 4543) on :
 
What I've noticed is that the first book was 'The Purpose-Driven Life,' the sequel 'The Purpose-Driven® Church.

So Purpose-Driven is now a registered trade mark is it?

However I've heard Rick Warren speak and he seems sound to me. Not the if you do this you will be successful one would assume from the book titles.

What's wrong with a bit of salemanship anyway? If someone has been helped by your course why not ask them to recomend it?

Pepper, if you want to have a go, look and find out if the profit from the books is financing a ministry or a lifestyle.
 

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Posted by Norman the Peasant (# 5477) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by pepper:
You bastards. You cold-hearted, cynical bastards. What kind of nobheaddedly ignorant organisation spews forth enough bum fodder to supply the world with over 336 million unconfortable wipes - and then boasts about it?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Balaam:
What I've noticed is that the first book was 'The Purpose-Driven Life,' the sequel 'The Purpose-Driven® Church.

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I thought The Purpose Driven Church was first. I've read The Purpose Driven Church, and one about youth ministry (no prizes for guessing the title). They go on about how you don't need programmes, you need principles. Then go on to describe their programmes in great detail.

I used to eat this stuff up

[ 03. March 2004, 18:10: Message edited by: Lurker ]
 

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Posted by sharkshooter (# 1589) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Lurker:
I thought The Purpose Driven Church was first.

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It was.

But, we still don't know what pepper is talking about. I even tried googling "over 336 million" and found something about lead wire assemblies.
 

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Posted by Laura (# 10) on :
 
I also haven't any notion of what pepper's on about, but it's a good rant, so I'll give him a hearty harrumph.


Harrumph!
 

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Posted by Ophelia's Opera Therapist (# 4081) on :
 
Searching for people who have sold over 300 million copies of anything comes up with Stephen King, Agatha Christie, Enid Blyton, Richard Scarry and Goosebumps and Asterix books. Also Spurgeon's sermons and books but though he's an avowed Calvinist I doubt he'd attract this much invective from Pepper.

I think the best bet so far has to be The Purpose Driven Life, which has 336 pages and has sold over a million copies. [and ties in so blatantly with the thread title... didn't notice that bit...]

OOT

[ 03. March 2004, 19:41: Message edited by: Ophelia's Opera Therapist ]
 

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Posted by sharkshooter (# 1589) on :
 
Pepper seems to post about once a week, so we could be waiting awhile for a confirmation. In the meantime, should we have a poll to determine what he was talking about? We could use OOT's options.

I vote for Stephen King as the most useless.
 

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Posted by Norman the Peasant (# 5477) on :
 
If it's not bloody Mission Praise then it can only be the Mission Praise Christmas carol sheets.

An obsessive grudge? Me?

Nah
 

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Posted by Nightlamp (# 266) on :
 
Is it alpha?
 

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Posted by John D. Ward (# 1378) on :
 
I would guess, possibly wrongly, that the Bible, the world's all-time best selling book, is what the original poster has in mind.
 

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Posted by Papio (# 4201) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by John D. Ward:
I would guess, possibly wrongly, that the Bible, the world's all-time best selling book, is what the original poster has in mind.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Balaam:
However I've heard Rick Warren speak and he seems sound to me. Not the if you do this you will be successful one would assume from the book titles.

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I recall that the opening lines of the book audaciously promise that by the end of this study you *will* know your purpose in life.

Uh . . . okay.

What I read before I returned it to the library (30-day loan, 40-day study . . . doesn't add up) I felt was very basic and quite obvious. Now, granted, I did not seriously commit myself to doing the daily study, but it just didn't strike me as being "all that."

But, yes, it's sold MANY MANY copies. I suppose it's wrong for me to come away from it feeling that my purpose in life is to figure out how to get a piece of the action.

[ 03. March 2004, 21:17: Message edited by: Sheriff Pony ]
 

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Posted by MrSponge2U (# 3076) on :
 
From what I know of the Purpose-Driven Life, it seems to be the equivalent of listening to a motivational speaker. You don't learn anything you don't already know, but supposedly you're more motivated to do what you're supposed to be doing.

I'm at a loss to figure out why so many people are raving about the book so passionately. I know of one mega-church pastor who exclaimed that besides the Bible, The Purpose-Driven Life is the greatest book that has ever been written. I can think of some people that might disagree: Augustine, Lewis, Tolkien, Chesterson, among others.

I suppose the success of this book just goes to prove that fluff sells, and books with some actual depth to them just aren't welcome in the world of "purpose-driven" Christian marketing.
 

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Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 
I'm reading the book and it's quite good. I don't know what the fuss is about on though.


 

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Posted by sharkshooter (# 1589) on :
 
I have read very little of it yet, but this surprised me:

quote:

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Originally posted by MrSponge2U:
I suppose the success of this book just goes to prove that fluff sells, and books with some actual depth to them just aren't welcome in the world of "purpose-driven" Christian marketing.

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quote:

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It's not about you.

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quote:

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It all starts with God

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• You were Planned for God's Pleasure
• You were Formed for God's Family
• You were Created to become like Christ
• You were Shaped for Serving God
• You were Made for a Mission

Like it or not, it is a theological point of view which is not that uncommon. I expect there is depth there - maybe just not the kind of depth you want to accept.

Read it first, then discuss it - it would work better that way.
 

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Posted by MrSponge2U (# 3076) on :
 
Maybe "fluff" was too harsh a word. What Sharkshooter posted about the book sounds pretty good. I'm sure that some people will learn something of value from the book. I've just not been too encouraged by what I've seen on the shelves of Christian bookstores lately.
 

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Posted by Vikki Pollard (# 5548) on :
 
That's why I now keep out of Christian bookstores* - and my life is sooooo much better, Lawdy, yes! Glad to say I've never heard of the offending books, but my, what an outstanding rant! BRAVO!!

Seriously, I realised many years ago that most books on 'popular theology' are nothing more than religiously-themed 'Mars and Venus' type writings. And we all know what St Paul did to people who peddled their religiosity for money, don't we kiddies?

*Except one in Sheffield when I was looking for a toilet. Didn't have one, though...
 

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Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :
 
Stephen King’s early books are stuffed full of wonderful theology, especially The Stand. As for the books, easier to pass through the eye of a needle ………

But good rant, so I add a hearty Hear, Hear ,

P
 

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Posted by Stoo (# 254) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Stephen King’s early books are stuffed full of wonderful theology, especially The Stand.

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quote:

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Originally posted by John D. Ward:
I would guess, possibly wrongly, that the Bible, the world's all-time best selling book, is what the original poster has in mind.

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John Ward earns the prize for best current apprentice

Pepper - fabulous rant. I'm almost tempted to agree with you, simply on the strength of it, despite knowing nothing about the purpose-driven thang
 

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Posted by Sheriff Pony (# 3911) on :
 
Oh, and regarding the rant, buried in among all those marvelous descriptors was the charge that the book is "multi-fonted." Indeed you are correct. Far too many typefaces are employed in the production of this book. But then I consider any number greater than three* to be "too many."

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*Not counting the book cover, which is a separate entity.
 

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Posted by Leprechaun (# 5408) on :
 
Those who find proof texting an irritation (and I gather there are many on the Ship) should avoid this book at all costs.
 

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Posted by Captain Caveman (# 3980) on :
 
I have read some of 'The Purpose Driven Life' and while it is by no means a classic of the faith I think it's not without value to someone who's recently become a Christian and wants some simplistic guidelines.

The thing that most annoyed me, which probably does nothing more than show what a joyless pedant I am, was in one place he says something like: 'Your genes can combine in infinitely many different ways. There are 24 000 000 possible combinations.'

Look up 'infinite' in your dictionary, you don't need a degree in maths to work it out.
 

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Posted by pepper (# 3895) on :
 
Indeed, perhaps a little more specificity on my part wouldn't have gone amiss, but I am certainly relieved to know that some are still untouched by these bin-monstering, conscience-bypassing promotional juggernauts of late. All those who guessed "Purpose Driven <insert derivative pustule here>", PM me to arrange delivery of your congratulatory packet of sweets.

Yes, I am in the process of reading the book, and while I am spectacularly failing to profit from it (no doubt attributable to a uncommonly shallow and unteachable personality, natch), there's no denying that other people have benefitted and continue to do so on some level. So no matter how much of the book's content may strike me as narrow, revisionist, vague to the point of irrelevance, or more dilute than a sunday school orange squash, neither it nor the author are (yet) the subject of my rantings.

Press release:

quote:

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The Purpose Driven Life was released in September 2002 to coincide with the first “40 Days of Purpose” campaign. During the six-week campaign, pastors from participating churches preach a sermon based on one of The Purpose Driven Life’s six parts, while church members are encouraged to read one chapter of the book each day of the 40-day campaign. A third “40 Days of Purpose” campaign launched last month with more than 6,000 churches participating. It is estimated that an additional 14,500 churches will participate in the campaign in 2004.

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We're not looking at a small-scale chintz stall here, but a full-on marketing drivelfest. Is there no shame? It's certainly not about me, but rather the publishing house's ever-grinding publicity mill and it's ability to create demand for the book / free-standing resin cross / lace embroidered memorial shower curtain via the maintenance of wallet-thinning psychological dependance on brand related purchases - which I would so much like to believe is in violent opposition to the author's intent in writing the book to start with.

Why not concentrate on producing quality resources which are self-identified by an honest acknowledgement of scope and limitations? Instead of encouraging an already specialist industry to become literally dependant on sales from the next big seller and its accoutrements, how about -as a large and internationally influential publisher- working with booksellers to stabilise the industry and produce a healthy independence in both retailers and consumers? O pray for my withered soul and bitter heart!

--
OOT, I concede to you. It's difficult to criticise someone who is not only named after a fish, but also possessor of such carefully groomed facial topiary.
 

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Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
Dang it...I don't get the sweets.


******

[FLAME ON]
Most of the churches who choose this crap of course also rail against the "dead liturgy" of the older church groups.

What's next...the purpose driven grape juice and the purpose driven Atkin's endorsed communion bread? Cause...you know we have to have a purpose driven communion.

IMHO, this is an affront to the Holy Spirit and a repudiation of the reasons for the radical reformaton which lead to the founding of most of the church groups who will be following this spoon fed pablum.



Read the book morons, read the book. Pray, read it again. It's not that hard. BE QUIET FOR A MOMENT. Yeah, it's tough, cause all your freaking committees get in the way. Figure it out.

When God doesn't give you all the answers, we tend to jabber at God wondering why not. But....let you in on a secret, which you would get if you actually meditated on the word a bit, She never did. DEAL WITH IT.

Somebody chase these money changers out of the temple.

[FLAME OFF]
 

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Posted by Nicodemia (# 4756) on :
 
A wonderful rant!! And my hearty agreement. I spit feathers when I think of that book.

Just in case you haven't had the benefit of Rick Warren's wisdom, all neatly packed into a 40-day plastic bag, try these for size:

p.25 - He quotes, with enormous approval, a poem by Russell Kelfer:

"Our God made no mistake
He knit you together within the womb
You're just what he wanted to make"

Oh yeah? Try telling that to a lad with muscular dystrophy, for instance, that he will be in a wheelchair by the time he is 15, and dead by 20. Or any other disabling genetic disease.

and

"The parents you had were the ones he chose
And no matter how you may feel,
They were customed-designed with God's plan in mind
And they bear the Master's seal."

Lovely stuff! Just what an abused child wants to hear, as her father rapes her for the fourth time that week. Or one who is emotionally abused, or thrashed frequently for nothing (or anything, come to that)

And as for some of his translations! Well, words fail me. He used "The Message" a great deal, so that Exodus 34:14 comes out as "He is a God who is apssionate about his relationship with you", instead of "The Lord your God is a jealous God". To my humble mind that is not at all the same thing.

Yes, there are some good things there, if you can bear to dig for them. But from an English person living in the North of England, a book written for middle class, affluent Southern Californians does not translate well across the Atlantic. (I've nothing against southern Californians, they just have a totally different culture from the industrial north!)

And, like someone said, its a marketing technique. Read this, and you will be saved, your life will be changed overnight (or over 40 nights) and everything in the garden will be lovely. I almost expect him to offer money-off coupons for the first 100 readers to complete it.

Ugh!

Nic
 

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Posted by Anastasia Pivka (# 3453) on :
 
We did this very same course last year, and I was very sceptical of the whole thing. I definately would not have bought the book if my house group, church fellowship were not studying it. I bought it because I felt pressurised. I did not complete the 40 days. Some did, and found it useful. I'm definately with you on the whole merchandising thing though, it really stinks.

In the same category, but possibly worse is the "Prayer of Jabez" (TM) book and associated crap that goes with it. I say worse, because this book is a total pile of rubbish, stands up to no decent critique and they have a whole armery of marketing aimed at young people. Ggggrr. Don't go praying on young people who might be reletively new to the faith and are easily impressed. The book and associated merchanidising costs a fortune and is no good what so ever.
 

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Posted by Vikki Pollard (# 5548) on :
 
Before I read the last few posts, I was thinking, "Atkins Christianity" - I wonder if you could modify the Alpha Suppers to suit...?
(No offence intended to anyone in the legal profession. Anyone at all.)
 

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Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 
I DO have something against Southern California...which is why I live North.

Please Keep in mind that NORTH California is way different from "the SOUTH".

I still got the book though.

[ 04. March 2004, 21:14: Message edited by: duchess ]
 

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Posted by RuthWadislaus (# 13) on :
 
I still think you should move to Orange County, duchess. You'd find a nice guy who goes to a steel-Bible-thumping church and who pays for everything inside a year.
 

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Posted by Flausa (# 3466) on :
 
This book is just the most recent easy-sell of faddish Christian crap. I steer clear of any motivational Christian book that sells so well. Other crap to add to the pile is The Prayer of Jabez. I think is sad that folks get so sucked into this stuff. You'll probably find Thomas Kincade coasters, placemats, and tissue box covers in the same home as collections of such books. Cheap, gaudy, emotionalistic Christianity.
 

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Posted by ej (# 2259) on :
 
Fantastic rant Pepper... That applies to so many things I think I'll keep it permanently copied, ready to paste wherever and whenever!

Any 'book' which takes up an entire section of a Christian bookstore with its 'add-ons' immediately forces me to flee from the building. (I'll give the Bible the only exception to this rule) Hence I've never read it and doubt I will. But then I'm a hype-avoider from way back...

And while we're on the topic of merchandising gripes, the whole First Place thing has me equally disgusted by the use of the Christian ghetto as a consumer target...
 

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Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by RuthWadislaus:
I still think you should move to Orange County, duchess. You'd find a nice guy who goes to a steel-Bible-thumping church and who pays for everything inside a year.

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[stop and think tangent]But I would have to move him here. I am attached to this sinful Valley, God help me. Tempting though Ruth. Food for thought for me once again, esp. if he were a Simon Le Bon look-a-like bible thumpin' paying his way man.[/stop and think tangent]
 

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Posted by Anastasia Pivka (# 3453) on :
 
There's some more information on the Prayer of Jabez for Teens here . Looks good doesn't it?

I was actually looking for the website for the Prayer of J for Teens. When you start to look at that, then you start to think all is not well here. Manipulation is really what's going on.

The only book which I will defend in the Perpose driven monagionary is Perpose Driven Youth Work, which actually has some good principles to work by. It does come across as being a bit smug though.
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Captain Caveman:
The thing that most annoyed me, which probably does nothing more than show what a joyless pedant I am, was in one place he says something like: 'Your genes can combine in infinitely many different ways. There are 24 000 000 possible combinations.'

Look up 'infinite' in your dictionary, you don't need a degree in maths to work it out.

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quote:

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Originally posted by duchess:

quote:

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Originally posted by RuthWadislaus:
I still think you should move to Orange County, duchess. You'd find a nice guy who goes to a steel-Bible-thumping church and who pays for everything inside a year.

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[stop and think tangent]But I would have to move him here. I am attached to this sinful Valley, God help me. Tempting though Ruth. Food for thought for me once again, esp. if he were a Simon Le Bon look-a-like bible thumpin' paying his way man.[/stop and think tangent]

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Name it and claim it, Duchess
 

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Posted by Mousethiefovich (# 953) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Karenina*:
Name it and claim it, Duchess

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quote:

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Originally posted by Anastasia Pivka re: Jabez:
Don't go praying on young people

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Posted by Sign Nominopolis (# 3631) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Mousethiefovich:

quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Karenina*:
Name it and claim it, Duchess

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Name it Rory. No wait, Reginald. Bertrand. Derrick. Something manly.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Anastasia Pivka:
In the same category, but possibly worse is the "Prayer of Jabez" (TM) book and associated crap that goes with it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Nicodemia:
But from an English person living in the North of England, a book written for middle class, affluent Southern Californians does not translate well across the Atlantic. (I've nothing against southern Californians, they just have a totally different culture from the industrial north!)

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quote:

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Originally posted by RuthWadislaus:
It lays down a veneer of Christianity over the American dream, which was a lie to start with: work hard, do the right thing, and you will be blessed. It does not begin to address what's going on when you work hard and follow the purpose-driven program and your life still sucks.

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You clearly don't have enough faith
 

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Posted by RuthWadislaus (# 13) on :
 
If I had more money, I'd have more faith. Honest.

Once when I was job-hunting in Orange County, home of Rick Warren's Saddleback Church and the purpose-driven empire, an interviewer showed me around the office after the formal bit was over (it had gone well), and at one point she made the comment that I would like the job because the clients I would deal with would be nice - they had money. I threw the job away with both hands when I asked, "Are you going to pay me enough money to be nice?"
 

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Posted by Sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by RuthWadislaus:
Once when I was job-hunting in Orange County, home of Rick Warren's Saddleback Church and the purpose-driven empire, an interviewer showed me around the office after the formal bit was over (it had gone well), and at one point she made the comment that I would like the job because the clients I would deal with would be nice - they had money. I threw the job away with both hands when I asked, "Are you going to pay me enough money to be nice?"

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I'm guessing they weren't. probably didn't have enough money for that
 

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Posted by RuthWadislaus (# 13) on :
 
Fort Knox doesn't even have that much money.
 

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Posted by Tom Day (# 3630) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Anastasia Pivka:
In the same category, but possibly worse is the "Prayer of Jabez" (TM) book and associated crap that goes with it. I say worse, because this book is a total pile of rubbish, stands up to no decent critique and they have a whole armery of marketing aimed at young people. Ggggrr. Don't go praying on young people who might be reletively new to the faith and are easily impressed. The book and associated merchanidising costs a fortune and is no good what so ever.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Day:
(How about we start a series of books about how Jesus threw people out of the temple for marketing in the church. We could sell them in Wesley Owens, Church book stores and on Youth weekends away)

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Only if you split the proceeds with me
 

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Posted by Sharkov (# 1589) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Day:


Christian marketing. Hate it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sharkov:

quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Day:


Christian marketing. Hate it.

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Write a book - but don't market it. No, that would be wrong.

Who is their target audience? Christians.
Where can you find many of those? Associated with churches.
Where should you target your marketing? Churches.

Does being a Christian mean you have to burn your business credentials?

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quote:

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Originally posted by RooK:
Perhaps some fools thought to elevate churches and christianity above materialistic capitalism. How naive.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Day:
I meant that I hate it when Christians market their stuff as life-changing, life-altering etcetc.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sharkov:
I assume, then, that you object to the marketing of all self-help books - religious or not.

People have the choice to not buy the book, if they don't want to.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Day:
Not marketing per se, but marketing aimed at making as much money as possible out of people who do not know better. That, to me, is a decidedly dodgy way of selling christian books.

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That is a dodgy way to market anything. But 65-70% of all marketing is directed at such people - i.e. kids, etc.

Start ranting about how many children's shows have the primary purpose of selling toys; how many commercials are geared to kids so that they will market the junk to the parents. This is much more manipulative than marketing a Christian book to Christians - most of whom are adults and can make up their own minds and spend their own money.
 

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Posted by Sheriff Pony (# 3911) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Sharkov:
Start ranting about how many children's shows have the primary purpose of selling toys; . . .

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sharkov:

If I think I have a good product, I should market it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sharkov:
Start ranting about how many children's shows have the primary purpose of selling toys; how many commercials are geared to kids so that they will market the junk to the parents. This is much more manipulative than marketing a Christian book to Christians - most of whom are adults and can make up their own minds and spend their own money.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tom Day:
I think telling people that they will be better people, better christians and closer to God by reading one book is also rather maipulative

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quote:

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Originally posted by Anastasia Pivka:
See that's the problem I have with Prayer of Jabez, and some of the Perpose Driven stuff, is that it is not good, but a load of dressed up drivel, which deserves very little marketing.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sharkov:

quote:

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Originally posted by Anastasia Pivka:
See that's the problem I have with Prayer of Jabez, and some of the Perpose Driven stuff, is that it is not good, but a load of dressed up drivel, which deserves very little marketing.

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In your opinion. Others have different opinions, and some of them are also valid.

Don't get me wrong - I don't think this book is for everyone.

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quote:

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I think people should use their brain and read the back cover, the index, etc. and try to find out if it is for them before they buy it. I just got a bit heated by everyone saying it is useless. Sorry.

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quote:

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It was suggested that our church join this program this past winter. I was one of the ones who said "Wait a minute. Let's see if it is right for the church, for a particular group, or not at all before we endorse it, not to mention encourage it."

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quote:

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If you are into personal daily devotions, perhaps it is a good thing. Besides, you always need material, and in 40 days you will move on to something else, hopefully haveing gained something from it.

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quote:

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quote:

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Originally posted by Captain Caveman:
The thing that most annoyed me, which probably does nothing more than show what a joyless pedant I am, was in one place he says something like: 'Your genes can combine in infinitely many different ways. There are 24 000 000 possible combinations.'

Look up 'infinite' in your dictionary, you don't need a degree in maths to work it out.

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Nonsense like that makes me very suspicious of a writer or speaker. If they talk crap about stuff I do know about, I tend to assume they talk crap about stuff I don't know about. Where does " 24 000 000" come from? That's not a very big number when you are talking about combinations. You get more possibilites than that from a pack of cards.

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