Ship of Fools: Eccles: Finding a new Music Director: What are some good questions to ask?

Thread: Eccles: Finding a new Music Director: What are some good questions to ask? Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Flounder (# 3859) on :

(If this thread belongs in Ecclesiantics, could the Hosts move it there...?)

I just discovered that the Music Director at my church has tendered his resignation yesterday. While I have no stake in who is ultimately chosen to replace him -- I sing elsewhere -- and I am not on the Music Committee, I'd like to give them a sample list of questions to ask from an outsider's/musicans' point of view, as none of them are musicians (that I know of). I feel that if we ask the right questions of a potential Music Director, we will get the right person.

Here are some questions I’ve come up with so far: If any of them seem dumb, please let me know so that I don’t make a fool of myself when passing them on to the music committee. Please give me as many suggestions as you can. I assume the rector and the committee will come up with all the practical, non-musical questions, although those suggestions would be most helpful.

1. Our choir is down to a few volunteers. What will you do to attract new people? Will you use a quartet of paid singers to augment the group or continue to use strictly volunteer singers? Why ?

2. Can you work with musicans of all types and abilities? Will you teach the untrained ones musical skills as you go along?

3. How do you teach a mixed group of singers a new piece of music, especially when they cannot always attend rehearsals?

4. How would you resolve personal differences within the choir?

5. The church is now paying an outside soloist and an outside jazz group to do much of the music. How do you plan to integrate that music with what you and the choir does? How would you choose music? What kind of music do you like the most? What type of sound are you looking for in a choir?

6. How can you encourage musical excellence as a form of celebration and fellowship? How will you get the congregation to participate more? Can you turn the musical experience into something that is celebratory and FUN? [Big Grin]

7. Do you have any knowledge of the voice, how it works, and about problems regarding vocal health? Have you had formal vocal training?

8. Since our resources are currently limited, what are your musical and liturgical short-term goals? Your long-term goals?

[ 12. June 2005, 19:23: Message edited by: Siegfried ]

Posted by Poppy (# 2000) on :

9. If we appoint X will he/she be bringing a significant other to the choir and can he/she sing well enough to justify their place there?

Sounds picky but we have a new musical director and although he can play well enough his wife's vocal technique leaves something to be desired.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Flounder:
(If this thread belongs in Ecclesiantics, could the Hosts move it there...?)

Assuming that "Music Director" is responsible for music in worship rather than staging Broadway-type shows for the fundraising committee, then yes it belongs in Ecclesiantics.

Alan
Purgatory host

Posted by Merchant Trader (# 9007) on :

- what is his attitude to children, will there be a junior choir ?
- will there be separate choir practices for the children
- will he/she run a recognised training scheme for the kids e.g. the RCCM one (the ribbons)
- in the UK: will he/she fulfill the search criteria for those people working with children
- will the kids be allowed to join in those adult pieces they can ? will they be given a separate slot to do their pieces ? what is their experiances in getting adlut memebrs to encourage/support the kids
- if a church school will he/she be prepared to help forge links ?

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

If time permits, it is rather fun to ask him/her to take a portion of choirpractice, to see how they relate to the choir in a practical way. You can find out if they have a sense of humour, or are really boring, if they have impossible expectations or treat everyone like schoolkids. It also saves the new person being appointed and then resigning when they find out the choir isn't what they thought.

Realistically, though, in many churches you don't get hundreds of potential candidates beating a path to your door and you sometimes have to make do with the only person who wants the job.

Where are you advertising the post?

Posted by Flounder (# 3859) on :

Hi Chorister

The church will be advertising the position just outside of Boston, MA. There are a lot of talented people here, but they may want better pay than the church is probably able and willing to give, especially is they are members of the AGO. So, yes, that is a problem.

Also, I assume they will have this person play and rehearse what there is of the choir (1 - 3 people on average, somethimes about 5 or 6, depending -- makes it very hard to plan anything. I have heard that sometimes nobody shows up for choir practice at all! [Waterworks]

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
If time permits, it is rather fun to ask him/her to take a portion of choirpractice, to see how they relate to the choir in a practical way....

Realistically, though, in many churches you don't get hundreds of potential candidates beating a path to your door and you sometimes have to make do with the only person who wants the job.

Where are you advertising the post?

Posted by The Riv (# 3553) on :

quote:
I am not on the Music Committee, I'd like to give them a sample list of questions to ask from an outsider's/musicans' point of view, as none of them are musicians (that I know of). I feel that if we ask the right questions of a potential Music Director, we will get the right person.

It seems to me that this committee is significantly hamstrung before your process is even started. No musicians on the committee? No choir members? If it were me, I'd deputize some more committee members with musical qualifications and/or experiences.

Posted by aig (# 429) on :

We appointed a new choir director fairly recently (ie 6 mths ago). We had 3 people for interview and gave them 20 minutes each to work with the choir. We gave the choir members (including the children) a simple questionnaire so we got all their views on the candidates.
The written application form had questions about their formal music training experience etc and we then had an interview panel (including one of the older teenagers) who had some set questions. These were similar to the ones you have although we also asked them what sort of music they did not like.
We did ask them their views on who they thought should be in the choir, need for auditions, what if someone is terrible (and has been singing since they were 7yrs old only they are now 90). The interviewers response to the answers will depend on what your church want your choir to do/be.
It took an entire evening but at the end of it we had a candidate who both the choir and interview panel wanted - result!

Posted by Flounder (# 3859) on :

Absolutely agree with you. However, except for two members, I have no idea who is on the committee and no control over it.. (No musicians that I am aware of....)

quote:
Originally posted by The Riv:
It seems to me that this committee is significantly hamstrung before your process is even started. No musicians on the committee? No choir members? If it were me, I'd deputize some more committee members with musical qualifications and/or experiences.

aig, YES! Great ideas!

[ 28. February 2005, 19:37: Message edited by: Flounder ]

Posted by Merchant Trader (# 9007) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Flounder:
Hi Chorister

The church will be advertising the position just outside of Boston, MA. There are a lot of talented people here, but they may want better pay than the church is probably able and willing to give, especially is they are members of the AGO. So, yes, that is a problem.

Also, I assume they will have this person play and rehearse what there is of the choir (1 - 3 people on average, somethimes about 5 or 6, depending -- makes it very hard to plan anything. I have heard that sometimes nobody shows up for choir practice at all! ).

Seems to me that you be clear that the appointee is expected to start virtually from scratch - but for some tht might be added challenge/attractive.

Since when could churches compete with the secular world ? Surely you wouldn't want someone who is coming just for the money anyway ? In the Uk I cant think of many who would be paid more than $4000-£6000 (part time) and at the top end of that scale there are some directors of excellent choirs.

More rlevant might be your answers to their potential questions e.g. will there be money for muscic scores, robes etc etc. Will the choir be able to lead the services ? how much of the service is sung ? are they valued or tolerated ? will they be able to do the type of music they want to ?

[Fixed code - T]

[ 01. March 2005, 09:20: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

Posted by Alogon (# 5513) on :

quote:
The church will be advertising the position just outside of Boston, MA. There are a lot of talented people here, but they may want better pay than the church is probably able and willing to give, especially is they are members of the AGO. So, yes, that is a problem.

Edith Ho (famous choir director of Church of the Advent, Boston) once said of herself and all the professionals under her, "The thing is, we'd do it for free."

Not everyone would or should say as much, but where working conditions are as close to ideal as in that parish, they're paid because they deserve it, and like everyone else they do have living expenses. But it's not the deepest reason they're there.

Pan to S. Clement's, Philadelphia. Shortly after being appointed in the early 90s, Peter Richard Conte mentioned that in the interview with the rector, Fr. Laister had said wearily, "I get so tired of worrying about the music. Can't someone just give me beautiful music?" At that moment Peter knew he really wanted to work there. The rest is history. It's a pity that such an consideration seems to be so rare, submerged by everything else conceivable.

Posted by Bartolomeo (# 8352) on :

Your committee might do well to hire a consultant to help with the interviews. Candidates might include a music director from a neighboring church with a great music program, or a college professor who teaches church music. I sense that they need more help than you're likely to find here.

If you're looking for a volunteer or someone who you plan on underpaying on a chronic basis, you would do well to understand why they want the job and what they expect to get out of it that makes up for the fact that they are being paid less than the going rate.

Otherwise - same as any other job, you try to get to know them and see whether they'll fit in. Check references as it's the only way to find out how effective they have been in the past.

Posted by Traveller (# 1943) on :

Beware keen but musically illiterate clergy and committee members who think that spiritual qualities are all that matters in a musical director post. The new person must be comfortable with the aims and style of worship in the church and have an understanding around working with the clergy: does the church plan a month in advance, minimum, or does the music get changed just before, or even during, a service?

A talented applicant will be interviewing the church just as much as the church is interviewing them.

Posted by Flounder (# 3859) on :

These are all good questions, and ones that are bound to offend the committee.

Nonetheless, as I see it as a now-semi outsider (others may disagree):

1. There is little money for music: The church is >$40,000+ in debt. They have a a music fund of ~ $1000 USD. The organ needs >$40,000+ in repairs and there is no money whatsoever for that.

2. The choir has had less and less to sing, mainly because they have been less and less able to contribute over the last few years. It is an all-volunteer group.

2b. There is apparently a policy that members of the parish cannot be paid to sing in the choir or as soloist/section-leaders (although the priest, the secretary, the Music Director and a few others are paid to do their work). However, people from outside the church can be paid to sing or play. It is not necessarily a matter of ability: There are some fine musicans within the congregation. It is a matter of parish policy. [Confused]

2c. The traditional music program is, at this point, barely tolerated. The congregation barely sings. I think the congregation no longer wants traditional liturgical music. The choir, over the years, is rarely recognized or even thanked for their contribution. The jazz trio and the singer that comes in every few weeks to sing from LEVAS IS what's valued. Perhaps that is the musical direction they need to move in in order to revitalize the church, but they had better make that clear to all candidates!

quote:
Originally posted by Merchant Trader:
....More rlevant might be your answers to their potential questions e.g. will there be money for muscic scores, robes etc etc. Will the choir be able to lead the services ? how much of the service is sung ? are they valued or tolerated ? will they be able to do the type of music they want to ?

Posted by Flounder (# 3859) on :

Sorry to double post.

Traveller -- yes. There is a lot of musical illiteracy at this church.

quote:
Originally posted by Traveller:
Beware keen but musically illiterate clergy and committee members who think that spiritual qualities are all that matters in a musical director post......

A talented applicant will be interviewing the church just as much as the church is interviewing them.

...

Bartolomeo, undersupporting the music program and underpayment of musicians, plus Traveller's point is at the crux of the problem.

quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
If you're looking for a volunteer or someone who you plan on underpaying on a chronic basis, you would do well to understand why they want the job and what they expect to get out of it that makes up for the fact that they are being paid less than the going rate.

Posted by ACOL-ite (# 4991) on :

If you have Jazz and "traditional" music, then ask him to do an improvisation which starts with a Jazz piece of your choosing in Eb and segues into something it's appropriate to start a "trad" hymn in D from.

Posted by Foaming Draught (# 9134) on :

Sounds like you need a new minister before you get a director of music [Votive]

If you're SW of Boston (Westwood, Dover, ish) send me a PM, I'll put you in touch with a fine church musician who's sitting on his hands just now.
FD

Posted by Ogre (# 4601) on :

In addition to the previous suggestions:

* -What sort of church music do you like?

* -Can we observe you taking a Choir practice with the existing choir?

* -Can we hear you improvising an organ prelude (or offertory, communion, or postlude) for some named occasion? [Votive]

Posted by Papa Smurf (# 1654) on :

Was it just me, or did anyone else see this question

quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:

Where are you advertising the post?

and think it was about methods of advertising (ie which publications / media), and not about Geographical location.

quote:
Originally answered by Flounder:

The church will be advertising the position just outside of Boston, MA

Posted by Flounder (# 3859) on :

Since I am not on the committee and have no say in things, I can only assume they'll advertise in the usual places. The local paper, the music schools, the AGO, their website, the local deanery and the diocese, as well as by word of mouth.

BTW, I want to thank you all for such excellent suggestions -- not to mention the tough questions about money and support that the candidates should be asking the Powers that Be at my church. Keep 'em coming!

Posted by Pre-cambrian (# 2055) on :

I think it is essential that the parish is clear in advance about what they want, what standard they are looking for and what they are going to pay. Otherwise you will end up with mismatch between expectations (parish's and organist's) and pay. There is no point offering £4,000 and expecting a cathedral organist.

Equally, if the salary is low, you will be restricting yourselves to people who are already reasonably local. This is even more the case if property is expensive in your area. (Our parish is in outer London, where our ability to offer a house is worth more than the salary.) So the parish may want to think in advance about what it would say if asked about accommodation.

I completely agree with Bartolomeo's suggestion of bringing in outside musical expertise. In England there will usually be a diocesan music advisor, one of whose roles is to advise on appointments/sit on panels. I don't know whether there are equivalents in the States. Alternatively someone from a nearby parish. (As an aside I'm gobsmacked that there's no musician on the Music Committee!)

Will the Director be the only person on the music staff? Or is there also an organist/pianist? I.e. will the primary role be as choir trainer or organist? That makes a difference to what skills you should be focussing on.

From what you say about the number & attendance of the choir now, the need to exhibit and demand commitment will be important (although it seems as if the parish's attitude probably doesn't help).

Finally, they will want to know who has the final say over what music is chosen. This may run both ways. The Director will not expect to be second guessed over the music chosen for the choir slots. On the other hand, the parish will want to see that the candidate is (or is prepared to be) aware of the liturgical needs and the church's year. The organist's list of favourites is no use if they try to put on Parry's I Was Glad in the middle of Lent!

Posted by The Prophetess (# 1439) on :

I think that in general when interviewing candidates it's a good idea to phrase as many questions as possible in terms of past rather than future behavior. "When situation X has come up, how have you handled it?" is better than "How would you handle situation X?"---in the latter instance the person is obviously free to answer as if the situation were happening in an ideal, rather than the real, world.

Posted by Bartolomeo (# 8352) on :

I've been thinking on this more than I care to admit.

It seems to me that if the church is in such financial straits as you describe, that it is probably inappropriate to try to recruit a music director as a member of the staff. Better to get a congregant to rise to the occasion, or find a student who is genuinely willing to play for the experience alone or a modest stipend.

Realistically, it's probably time for last rites for traditional music, due to congregational and pastoral indifference towards it, lack of funds, and lack of leadership. To revive a program that has already lost much of its relevance, it would be better to start with a fund drive than with a recruiting effort.

Sadly, there's a lot of this going on out there in the wide world. Any music program takes leadership, funding, and oversight to thrive. Just as a bad pastor can put a congregation into decline, poor music ministry over the course of years can lead to a decline of the quality and relevance of the music program. The musically inclined within the congregation leave or develop other interests and other musical outlets, the instruments get neglected, communications suffers, and the church ends up with a mess.

It takes years of effort and money to clean up something like that. Getting the organ repaired, alone, will be a huge undertaking, because there will be those elements in the congregation and leadership that will decry spending on the organ while other pressing needs go unmet. Then how do you rebuild interest in a choir when there's no budget for new music, new robes, new anything that sends the message that the choristers are valuable and appreciated?

Posted by Flounder (# 3859) on :

Bartolomeo,

You are absolutely right. I truly appreciate you honesty: This church needs to confront your questions, as hard as they are.

I feel the same way as you, which is why I now sing elsewhere. I have not been invited to have any say in this and frankly the heirarchy doesn't really care what I think. But as a parishioner, I felt a certain duty do do something helpful, even if it is only on the sly.

Perhaps these questions will be more palatable if somebody else asks them, which is why I am gathering information -- I plan to pass it on to somebody there who others are willing to listen to.

quote:
Originally posted by Bartolomeo:
I've been thinking on this more than I care to admit.

It seems to me that if the church is in such financial straits as you describe, that it is probably inappropriate to try to recruit a music director as a member of the staff.....

Realistically, it's probably time for last rites for traditional music, due to congregational and pastoral indifference towards it, lack of funds, and lack of leadership. To revive a program that has already lost much of its relevance, it would be better to start with a fund drive than with a recruiting effort.

Sadly, there's a lot of this going on out there in the wide world..... The musically inclined within the congregation leave or develop other interests and other musical outlets, the instruments get neglected, communications suffers, and the church ends up with a mess.

It takes years of effort and money to clean up something like that. Getting the organ repaired, alone, will be a huge undertaking, because there will be those elements in the congregation and leadership that will decry spending on the organ while other pressing needs go unmet.

[ 02. March 2005, 00:02: Message edited by: Flounder ]

Posted by Pax Romana (# 4653) on :

I think the most important thing for this church is to find a music director who is capable of doing both the traditional liturgical music and the jazz/modern stuff that the pastor is introducing. This way there can be some cooperation and integration of the different styles rather than the usual conflict that results.

All of the suggestions in this thread are excellent. I just hope that your music committee (since there is not one trained musician on it) will be willing to bow to superior wisdom and take some of these suggestions to heart.

Pax

Posted by Ger (# 3113) on :

The original enquiry concerned questions to ask of presumably candidates for the position of Director of Music.

I suggest that the enquiry puts the cart before the horse.

Rather I suggest that first the parish (clergy, vestry (that is, the committee that runs the place) and congregation (I have deliberately left out the choir and music group as a separate entity)) must decide what they want the newly appointed Director of Music to do. That is to say for example, we wish to have a music programme that emulates that at the National Cathedral but on a scale suited to a parish church, OR we wish to have a music programme that is centred round a jazz group but also involves the children of the parish on one Sunday in four,OR a music programme based on traditional hymnody and the Coverdale psalter,OR the major task for the first twelve months is to supervise the refurbishment of organ, and so on.

I suggest secondly it would be wise to set an annual budget, a three year rolling budget and perhaps a five year rolling budget within which the programme is to be achieved. This of course would require consideration of salary level (from zero to ????).

The parallel is that process associated with the appointment of a new vicar/rector/parish priest.

Until you can describe what you want the appointee to do and within what budget then you are not really in a position to even advertise for applicants, let alone generate the list of questions that might be asked at an interview.

While I am of the opinion that "qualifications" are rather like a marriage licence - gives you permission to try but does not guarantee the result - things like the AGO, RCCO, RCO, Archbishop's (Presiding Bishop's) Diploma/Certificate in Church Music examination series do at least provide some standard of practical musicianship and knowledge.

I also suggest that when you do get to the interview stage you do arrange practical auditions. If organ playing, for example, is to be important then arrange for a committee of taste that includes a couple of professional organists (perhaps the local University or Seminary could assist). As far as auditioning the conducting/directing a choir is concerned do NOT use your own choir as the test bed - borrow a choir from elsewhere - the church next door or the local choral society and arrange for the committee of taste to include knowledgable outsiders as well as a member or three of the church choir.

As far as devising an interview regime I suggest that the Millenium Review at this address Association of Anglican Musicans may give you some ideas. As well I recall that the AAM in the mid-1980s also conducted a survey of ECUSA rectors/vicars/parish priests to identify from their point of view the important characteristics/traits/experience required of a Director of Music. I cannot find that survey on the web site but an enquiry by e-mail (or even snail mail) may surface the survey and suggest a line of questioning.

My experience covering almost forty years of church music is that a professional and pain-staking approach to the appointment of a Director of Music is likely to produce better results than a rushed and once-over-lighly approach. Professionalism attracts the professional.

Posted by jlg (# 98) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ger:

Until you can describe what you want the appointee to do and within what budget then you are not really in a position to even advertise for applicants, let alone generate the list of questions that might be asked at an interview.

This rather sums up Ger's excellent advice.

I am in a situation similar to Flounder's, except that we have a so-called Music Director, so I would add one more question:

Will the music program at the church be the MD's top priority? What will happen when there are conflicts with other jobs the MD might have?

Our organist/"Music Director" is very involved in local amateur theater and musicals. She very often cuts short or cancels rehearsals, can't be bothered to plan the music (or the cantor schedule [Mad]

) ahead of time, makes negative comments to the choir about the pastor's musical requests and taste, and generally makes it obvious that this is 'just a job' and that she does the minimum she can get by with. Needless to say, it's not doing anything to help grow the choir or coordinate with the Praise Band group that is also part of the parish.

(If your church's search turns up a decent also-ran, Flounder, pass along the name! )

Posted by Flounder (# 3859) on :

Thanks so much again -- excellent advice, all. I just hope that my church is willing to follow your wisdom!

[ 07. March 2005, 14:12: Message edited by: Flounder ]

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