Thread: Eccles: Vergers Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.


To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=000513
Posted by 103 (One-O-Three) (# 5846) on :
 
All the village parishes on television have them (Dad's Army, Vicar of Dibley) and Bath Abbey has a few, yet my parish doesn't have a verger, neither does my village church.
What does a Verger exactly do and how many parishes actually have a Verger?

-103

[ 08. September 2005, 18:13: Message edited by: Belisarius ]
 
Posted by lazystudent (# 5172) on :
 
Something to do with tending hedgerows, surely? [Big Grin] <ducks>
 
Posted by TubaMirum (# 8282) on :
 
http://www.vergers.org/
 
Posted by Pulsator Organorum Ineptus (# 2515) on :
 
Ours was the last parish church in the diocese to have a full time paid verger - we had to make him redundant last year. We now have an unpaid part-time verger, as do lots of other churches.

A full time vergers' duties would include some or all of the following:-


Note:

1. Vergers are an endless source of information about how much better things were done at the previous churches they worked for.

2. Under no circumstances get on the wrong side of the Verger, no matter how strong the temptation.
 
Posted by jugular (# 4174) on :
 
My church has a person who is called the Administrator, and who does secretarial work as well as most of the things that Pulsator mentioned.

It seems to me that, most churches who can afford a non-clergy staff member either go for a secretary or a yoof worker. My current and previous parishes both operate an office that is open for 6 hours a day, where you can always pop in and get something and where the phone is always answered. They also produce reams and reams of publications. I often wonder if this is the best use of resources.
 
Posted by Living in Gin (# 2572) on :
 
I've found that at least here in the US, vergers tend to be found primarily at cathedrals. Back at St. John the Divine, the vergers were part-time volunteers who primarily led the processions during the liturgy. (The other duties mentioned above by Pulsator Organorum Ineptus are typically handled by paid staff, ushers, or the altar guild.)

What was interesting (IMO) is that we actually had three vergers in procession. Our typical processions on Sunday mornings were somthing like this:

[VERGER]

[BOAT] [THURIFUR]

[TORCH] [CHOIR CROSS] [TORCH]

[CHORISTERS]

[ADULT CHOIR]


[VERGER]

[TORCH] [CHAPTER CROSS] [TORCH]

[CHAPTER]


[VERGER]

[TORCH] [CELEBRANT CROSS] [TORCH]

[SUBDEACON]

[DEACON]

[CELEBRANT]

As you can imagine, it's an incredibly long procession, and looks like a slow-moving liturgical freight train coming down the nave. [Big Grin]

Just out of curiousity, how does this compare with other cathedrals or large churches?

quote:
Originally posted by Pulsator Organorum Ineptus:
Under no circumstances get on the wrong side of the Verger, no matter how strong the temptation.
ETA: No argument there. At St. John the Divine, we were convinced that the Archbishop of Canterbury took his orders from the vergers. Acolytes who crossed the vergers had been known to disappear under mysterious circumstances. [Paranoid]

[ 04. May 2005, 01:55: Message edited by: Living in Gin ]
 
Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :
 
Vergers carry a verge (rod - sometimes by the irreverent called a poker) (and yes, all the obvious lewd puns are appropriate if you consider what "verge" is slang French for) and lead the way for important people. Many cathedrals will have a Dean's verger who walks in front of the Dean to lead him to his stall in the cathedral. Usually with a silver want held up at an angle in front of him (It gets worse and worse!) Most deans could do it on their own, but this is a piece of your gen-u-wine CofE culture.

This does not usually make a full time job. So most vergers do other things the rest of the time, as outlined in the preceding posts.

John
 
Posted by Amazing Grace (# 4754) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Living in Gin:
I've found that at least here in the US, vergers tend to be found primarily at cathedrals. Back at St. John the Divine, the vergers were part-time volunteers who primarily led the processions during the liturgy. (The other duties mentioned above by Pulsator Organorum Ineptus are typically handled by paid staff, ushers, or the altar guild.)

What was interesting (IMO) is that we actually had three vergers in procession. Our typical processions on Sunday mornings were somthing like this:

(details snipped to save space)

As you can imagine, it's an incredibly long procession, and looks like a slow-moving liturgical freight train coming down the nave. [Big Grin]

Just out of curiousity, how does this compare with other cathedrals or large churches?
Well, St. John the Divine has a lot of nave to process through!

It's been quite a while since I was at high mass at Grace SF, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were three vergers involved in the standard procession. I know the Dean or celebrant got his/her own verger (walking in after the choir and the chapter).

Grace doesn't do the multiple processional crosses (if I am recalling correctly, I usually only dipped once [Big Grin] ) and only breaks out the thurible for High Holy Days. Unfortunately I have duties at my parish on Pentecost or I'd nip on over to refresh my memory.

As mentioned in another thread, at my parish, the crucifer doubles as verger most days and conducts the choir to their seats and those bearing offerings up to the altar. It is strictly ceremonial and other duties of the "traditonal" verger are divided up among the paid and volunteer staff.

(edited to take out processional details, as they could easily be read above)

Charlotte

[ 04. May 2005, 03:16: Message edited by: Amazing Grace ]
 
Posted by Corpus cani (# 1663) on :
 
The role of verger is becoming increasingly popular in the ECUSA, and both there and in Britain is not restricted to Cathedrals and Greater Churches except in that these are the places likely to be able to afford them.

None of the posts so far has, sadly, mentioned the very important (and Benedictine) Ministry of Welcome - no irony intended - honestly. The days of the short grumpy verger telling people "You can't come in there's a service on," are long gone. Vergers are now often the front line of ministry (the prayer-face if you will.)

One of the best definitions of the verger is as an ecclesiastical butler - as a domestic butler oversees the running of his master's house, including a certain degree of ceremonial function and a nice outfit, so too does the Verger. They work under myriad titles including sexton, sacrist and beadle / bedel.

Your prep tonight is to locate and study the websites of the Church of England Guild of Vergers (CEGV) and their daughter Guild, the Vergers' Guild of the Episcopal Church (VGEC). Both offer much information about the verger's role in the church today.

Certainly it is essential to keep on the right side of the verger; 'the servers wish they ran the Church, the clergy think they run the Church, God knows the vergers run the Church.' [Snigger]

Corpus
 
Posted by A Random Ordinand (# 9444) on :
 
In our small Anglican Cathedral in Northern Ireland, we have a verger, who wears a black robe (almost like a Geneva gown) during services, but doesn't take part i processions. During the week, he cuts grass in the graveyard and drinks many cups of tea from various sources... We also have a 'Choir Verge' who is the youngest member of the choir, who carries a pole in front of the choir. Do any other churches have a choir verge (not a crucifer)?
 
Posted by Lumpy da Moose (# 9038) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pulsator Organorum Ineptus:
*snip*
A full time vergers' duties would include some or all of the following:-

Sounds like what our (paid) sexton does, except for processing/serving and linens of course (the altar guild sees to those).

And I'm sure we pay him far too little.
 
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Larger churches / cathedrals have training that you can go on to become an official verger. Ours is more like a glorified caretaker role, but with a more prominent role at weddings and funerals where they wear a special robe and welcome people to church, especially those with formal roles in the service; also those who may be feeling uncertain or nervous of where to sit.

Our previous verger enjoyed leading the choir to the chancel with his 'magic wand'; the present verger prefers not to do that but to wait at the back of church to usher in latecomers.
 
Posted by Hooker's Trick (# 89) on :
 
Virgers' duties.

The ones at Washington Cathedral mainly glower and tell people where they cannot go.
 
Posted by Verger (# 9486) on :
 
The best explanation I've heard is that the Verger is the Cathedral (in my case, or Church in others) Butler. Vergers are responsible for everything that happens inside the walls of the Church proper. Even when clergy make a mistake, the Canon Liturgist will admonish the Verger! We normally have two Vergers in procession, but can have as many as 5 or 6 for large services (Christmas, Easter, St. George's Day...)
 
Posted by Corpus cani (# 1663) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Verger:
The best explanation I've heard is that the Verger is the Cathedral (in my case, or Church in others) Butler.
See the next nun up. Or are my posts really too boring to read?

Corpus
 
Posted by wafer thin (# 9159) on :
 
Vergers are God within their parish and church, nothing is done without their say so, don't upset them, you are liable for ex-communication, and you will left for the rest of your days watching the blessed sacrement on the web cam
 
Posted by musicaljoke (# 9508) on :
 
I have to say I've enjoyed the various definitions of a verger and what he or she does. It seems to me that they are put on the Earth to put the fear of God into everyone else....

I only came across this site by accident - it's amazing what terminal panic can do when you are looking for the duties of a verger on the net. Why do I need to know? Hmmm....

I've been a member of the CofE for an awfully long time, and in that time have been a chorister, sacristan, flower arranger, reader (small r - my other half is a big R), sidesperson, choirmistress and organist. I've just applied for the post of Verger at one of the University College Chapels, and I thought I'd better find out everything I think I know and the things I don't before I go. I think I'm all right for most aspects of it, but digging graves might be a bit beyond me!

And I always thought it was the organist who ran the church....

[Two face]
 
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
Musicaljoke, a warm welcome to Ship of Fools and your first post with us.

Please check out the posting guidelines if you haven't already, and the other bulletin boards. And good luck with your verging!

Anselmina
Ecclesiantics Host
 
Posted by musicaljoke (# 9508) on :
 
Thank you Anselmina. The research paid off and I got the job, so I shall be 'verge-ing on the ridiculous' for a while until I learn the ropes.

mj [Ultra confused]
 
Posted by Corpus cani (# 1663) on :
 
Hearty congrats on your appointment, musical joke, and may your verging be never Yateman-esque (Mr Yateman = verger in "Dad's Army").

My own Christian Ministry began when I spent some years as verger at a Midlands Cathedral in the UK - I hope your own ministry as a verger is as fulfilling.

Next steps -

[1]
 
Posted by Corpus cani (# 1663) on :
 
Sorry - pressed the wrong button [Hot and Hormonal] Meant to say...

Contact the Church of England Guild of Vergers here. They offer a wealth of advice and experience, and will be a great help in developing your ministry.


Bless you,

Corpus.

[ 31. May 2005, 13:37: Message edited by: Corpus cani ]
 
Posted by Back-to-Front (# 5638) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Pulsator Organorum Ineptus:
A full time vergers' duties would include some or all of the following:-

Points 5 and 6 are not duties of a virger. These are duties of the sacristan. Likewise, point 8 is also not the duty of the virger, but rather of the servers.

In the absence of a sacristan and servers then the virger is perhaps the person best placed to substitute, but these are not his/her duties and they should never be foisted upon him/her, neither should (s)he be permitted to rob the sacristan and servers of their own ministries.

[edited as I cannot count]

[ 31. May 2005, 13:47: Message edited by: Back-to-Front ]
 
Posted by Philpott-Thrashington (# 5269) on :
 
For an off-beat look at Verging, you could always read the musings of Ebenezer Grindle, head Verger at Wenchoster cathedral.
Currently to be found at: http://www.pharisaios.co.uk/86083.html
 
Posted by Wayward Crucifer (# 152) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Philpott-Thrashington:
For an off-beat look at Verging, you could always read the musings of Ebenezer Grindle, head Verger at Wenchoster cathedral.
Currently to be found at: http://www.pharisaios.co.uk/86083.html
Slightly alarmingly, (for me at any rate) that top picture (not Grindle, the one below his musings) is of an event in my church. GSS Easter Festival, by the look of things.

Wayward, Verger, the Church without a congregation
 
Posted by Scotus (# 8163) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Wayward Crucifer:
quote:
Originally posted by Philpott-Thrashington:
For an off-beat look at Verging, you could always read the musings of Ebenezer Grindle, head Verger at Wenchoster cathedral.
Currently to be found at: http://www.pharisaios.co.uk/86083.html
Slightly alarmingly, (for me at any rate) that top picture (not Grindle, the one below his musings) is of an event in my church. GSS Easter Festival, by the look of things.

Wayward, Verger, the Church without a congregation
I think you'll find most of the congregation* were in the procession (though it does look a bit odd in the photo)

*actually the 'congregation' were all wearing cassocks and cottas and technically in choir, apart from a smallish real congregation who were out of shot in the photo.
 
Posted by Leetle Masha (# 8209) on :
 
(((Philpott-Thrashington))) Thank you for that link! It's the greatest!

Orthodox Christians will be transfigured by The Church of Rockall ! I got such a laugh out of that one!

The Verger's comments are also brilliant.

Thanks again!

Leetle M.
 
Posted by Scott Knitter (# 6278) on :
 
In my Anglo-Catholic parish (Ascension, Chicago), the duties that a verger would have are done by the master of ceremonies (we have three of those; they're liturgical posts only and not parish staff) and the Sisters of St. Anne, whose convent is among the parish buildings. There is also at least one parishioner who assists with preparations for Masses.

The MCs lead people around during Mass, but in the Ritual Notes style. Nobody leads the lay lector up to do the lesson, for instance.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
Orthodox Christians will be transfigured by The Church of Rockall ! I got such a laugh out of that one!
quote:

Solemn Evensong (BCP) - Chapel of Blessed Jennifer Patterson
Officiant: The Sub Vice Dean
New Canticles: Blair in B Minor
Anthem: God is gone up - Frenzi
Preacher: The Archbishop of Betelgeuse
Voluntary: The Magic Roundabout - Fauré, arr. Groves
[Killing me]
 
Posted by angloid (# 159) on :
 
Vergers are saints, pure and simple. (well, maybe not always pure).
 
Posted by angloid (# 159) on :
 
Double post apology, but that reads rudely. Vergers are saints, especially because they get so joked about.
 
Posted by Leetle Masha (# 8209) on :
 
quote:
Vergers are saints, especially because they get so joked about.
And in churches where there are no vergers, Angloid, the priest mops the floors and mows the grass.... one I know of worked himself into an early grave that way. [Waterworks]

Leetle M.

[ 07. June 2005, 20:18: Message edited by: Leetle Masha ]
 
Posted by The Geezer (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
And in churches where there are no vergers, the priest mops the floors and mows the grass....
Isn't that what a sexton is for?
 
Posted by Leetle Masha (# 8209) on :
 
Alas, the Geezer, my poor friend had no sexton either. If he'd had a verger, perhaps the verger could have helped him find a sexton that the congo would have been willing to pay. He had no one to help him at all. And sometimes he himself didn't get paid. He had to work part-time as a travel agent to make ends meet, and often, ends did not meet. A verger could at least have kept order in the church--some Sundays, a political group would be in the undercroft having a loud political meeting during the Divine Liturgy!

Leetle M.
 
Posted by The Geezer (# 5521) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
He had no one to help him at all.
Doesn't sound like a parish where folk were quick to volunteer, either.
 
Posted by brackenrigg (# 9408) on :
 
Various English cathedrals have vergers called "dog-whippers", whose medieval task was to escort the canons across the close and beat off the many dogs that had come about them and which were no doubt running to and fro for meat and being grudgingly unsatisfied.
A local cathedral has various dusting ladies who are titled non-liturgical vergers, somewhat defeating the object of the job. I was once asked to shift some altar rails and when I suggested it was a vergers job, I was put in my place (she didn't realise I had been a liturgical verger in my youth so knew all about the job specification).
 
Posted by Pulsator Organorum Ineptus (# 2515) on :
 
Do English churches have sacristans or sextons? None that I know do.
 
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
We have a sacristan but not a sexton.

BTW, does anyone remember Sexton Blake?
 
Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
If anyone does remember Sexton Blake, please can they remember him, on another thread perhaps in Heaven?

Thanks.

Anselmina
Ecclesiantics Host
 


© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0