quote:

---

Originally posted by Viola:
It is very important to dress 'appropriately' in my opinion.

Your opinion and mine about what constitutes 'appropriate' might differ.

K.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by KenWritez:
Papio, how are you defining "well"? Your OP can be interpreted differet ways.

---

I was hoping people would tell me what they defined as well.


[ 13. June 2005, 23:19: Message edited by: Papio. ]
 

---

Posted by The Coot (# 220) on :
 
I think when a gentleman goes out to dinner, to a concert or church; he should at least wear a shirt and tie. To work also, but in the torrid zone the tie may be reluctantly dispensed with if it looks like the gentleman will peg out from the heat and humidity. (Though there is little excuse in today's climate controlled workplaces).

Some time ago, Corpus Canii wrote something I liked so much I put in my Quotes File.

quote:

---

I'd put my best clothes on to meet the Queen of England so I wear my best clothes to meet the King of Heaven.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
Life is too short to spend it looking ugly or wearing beige.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mad Geo:
California - We have our own standards, you are just going to have to look like the rest of us. Shorts and thongs are sometimes appropo where they wouldn't be elsewhere.

---

And that would be thongs as in "flip flops" or thongs as in....

John
 

---

Posted by Mad Geo (# 2939) on :
 
Whatever you like.

Flip Flops
 

---

Posted by Cusanus (# 692) on :
 
All the schools I've worked in have,fortunately, had a collar-and-tie dress code for male staff - and I almost always wear a suit.

I say fortunately because I've never really got the hang of 'neat casual'. I seem to veer between suit-and-tie and rugby shirt-and-trackies. Anyway a nice dark suit is slimming for us heavier-set gentlemen.
 

---

Posted by Mad Geo (# 2939) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Presleyterian:
If you're comfortable in jeans, you'll also be comfortable in cargos or khakis or fatigues or black denim. If you're comfortable in a cotton tee, you'll also be comfortable in a cotton polo or a lightweight buttoned shirt.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Presleyterian:
If a man doesn't think an evening with me is motivation enough to spend a few minutes looking his best, he doesn't deserve my company.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Presleyterian:
I would echo what most people have said here: Casual is one thing, but unkempt is an altogether different kettle of fish. A day-after-day-after-day wardrobe of jeans/tee/trainers doesn't send the message "I'm a relaxed laid-back guy." It sends the message "I really don't care what you think because it's all about me, me, me." Like most forms of bad manners, sloppy attire is selfish.

The comfort argument really doesn't hold water either. Jeans and tees are fine in limited settings, but they're inappropriate in many others. If you're comfortable in jeans, you'll also be comfortable in cargos or khakis or fatigues or black denim. If you're comfortable in a cotton tee, you'll also be comfortable in a cotton polo or a lightweight buttoned shirt.

If an employee doesn't think a job is motivation enough to project a professional image, he or she doesn't deserve a salary. If a man doesn't think an evening with me is motivation enough to spend a few minutes looking his best, he doesn't deserve my company.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by KenWritez:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Presleyterian:
If a man doesn't think an evening with me is motivation enough to spend a few minutes looking his best, he doesn't deserve my company.

---

...and what a fool he would be!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Coot:
I think when a gentleman goes out to dinner, to a concert or church; he should at least wear a shirt and tie.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Grits:
I think Viola has already hit the nail on the head. Well-dressed can just mean dressed appropriately for the occasion.

---

Exactly.

Although as Viola said, what one person thinks is appropriate isn't neccesarily what another one thinks is.
 

---

Posted by Earthling (# 4698) on :
 
Scary stuff. I'm not sure I even know how to "dress well" and would probably look incredibly uncomfortable and self-concious if I tried! Surely there are more important things in life?
 

---

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
One thing I have to point out here is that well-fitting clothes and shoes aren't "uncomfortable". I guarantee you that my dress slacks and jackets which have been tailored to fit me are more comfortable than my jeans.

And having things altered to fit you is not that expensive, although I admit I may have a skewed point of view on these things.

You truly don't need a lot of clothes to look "well dressed", but you do need to take care of them...and yourself. If nothing else buy yourself a nose hair trimmer.

And yes, how you look is important. It's the first thing people notice about you. You're sending a huge message by the way you dress. Send whatever message you like. Just be sure you realize you're sending it.
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Presleyterian:
I would echo what most people have said here: Casual is one thing, but unkempt is an altogether different kettle of fish.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio.:
Also, Mad Geo, I'm interested in how serious were your comments about dressing lower than the boss..

I also thought that dressing as well or better than the boss was bad manners. Like earning more than your landlord.

---

I was deadly serious (on that one). If it's bad manners in the U.K. I would be surprised, but it could be. I would put it in four catagories:

1.Slave Labor
2.Business Casual i.e. Chinos and Polo Shirt
3.Business Pants with Shirt and Tie
4.Full Suit.

If you are a 1 and have no upward mobility you can wear what you want.

If you are anything else, or any kind of office puke, I would not recommend dressing less than a 2 at work, if you want to get ahead, or get a raise. If your boss dresses like a 3, you dress like a 3 not a 2. If your boss dresses like a 4, and it's bad manners, I would take it one step down to a 3. However, at least here in the U.S., if everyone else were to dress like a 3 and the boss dressed like a 4, I'd be a 4.

FWIW, I am now "the boss" (ranked one below the owner of the company). I got there using my evil mind (that's a joke), dressing higher than the guy next to me, and always being there before the boss got in and leaving after he left. Oh yes, and a 5-year plan to conquer the world.

[apparently I can't count]

[ 14. June 2005, 15:21: Message edited by: Mad Geo ]
 

---

Posted by KenWritez (# 3238) on :
 
Luckily for Madge in his career, counting's not that important.

He's right nonetheless. In the corporate world, you don't dress for the position you hold now, you dress for the position you want to hold. That means you dress as well as your boss does.

If I were interviewing job applicants for anything that required dealing with the public above the level of "Would you like fries with that?", especially in any kind of financial or service area, I would expect every applicant who wanted me to take them seriously to dress very similar to this man, making sure to wear leather dress shoes and dark socks as well.

I would trash the application of anyone showing up in jeans and t-shirt on the grounds they either aren't taking the interview seriously (which means they won't take the job seriously) or they have large enough personal problems that hiring them would be an equally large liability.

There's enough used clothing and thrift stores around that anyone can put together a basic interview and "first week on the job" wardrobe if they want, for much, much less than buying new. Lots of churches and charities will *give* clothing to people applying for jobs.
 

---

Posted by Papio. (# 4201) on :
 
Is it really essential to wear to a tie to a job interview? (Papio wonders if this may be where he has been going wrong.... )

On the tangent of Asperger's Syndrome: My brother has Asperger's and gets teased in the street. A lot. He is a decent young man with a very able mind and I think it must take a very shallow person not to be able to see that... Maybe, in not wanting to be such a shallow person, I have in some ways gone too much the other way.....
 

---

Posted by KenWritez (# 3238) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio.:
Is it really essential to wear to a tie to a job interview?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by KenWritez:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio.:
Is it really essential to wear to a tie to a job interview?

---

Unless you're interviewing as a septic tank pumper, I'd say yes. And please wear that tie with a dress shirt, i.e., a shirt made to be worn with a tie. You'll be more comfortable, you'll look better and you'll make a better presentation of yourself.

---

quote:

---

Dress as though you're ready and enthusiastic to go to work. Professionals dress professionally: Men usually wear ties, dress shoes and often a sportscoat. Women wear hosiery and dress shoes. Go easy on the trendy; avoid displaying anything that may take attention away from your skills and qualifications -- tattoos, nose rings, makeup, etc. -- unless you are interviewing at a place where managers, employees and customers alike dress in that style.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio.:

quote:

---

Originally posted by KenWritez:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio.:
Is it really essential to wear to a tie to a job interview?

---

Unless you're interviewing as a septic tank pumper, I'd say yes. And please wear that tie with a dress shirt, i.e., a shirt made to be worn with a tie. You'll be more comfortable, you'll look better and you'll make a better presentation of yourself.

---

In that case, I will have to go shopping tomorrow as
A) I have a job interview tomorrow afternoon and B) I don't own a tie and am uncertain what a dress shirt is so therefore do not know if I own one or not.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio.:
A) I have a job interview tomorrow afternoon and B) I don't own a tie and am uncertain what a dress shirt is so therefore do not know if I own one or not.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sharkshooter:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio.:

quote:

---

Originally posted by KenWritez:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio.:
Is it really essential to wear to a tie to a job interview?

---

Unless you're interviewing as a septic tank pumper, I'd say yes. And please wear that tie with a dress shirt, i.e., a shirt made to be worn with a tie. You'll be more comfortable, you'll look better and you'll make a better presentation of yourself.

---

In that case, I will have to go shopping tomorrow as
A) I have a job interview tomorrow afternoon and B) I don't own a tie and am uncertain what a dress shirt is so therefore do not know if I own one or not.

---

You probably should do it rather early, as you will likely have difficulty finding one who can tailor a suit to fit properly on the spot. At least, I am assuming that if you don't know what a dress shirt is that you also don't own a suit.

All the best on the interview.

---

I've stated on the thread that I own three suits.
 

---

Posted by Papio. (# 4201) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio.:
A) I have a job interview tomorrow afternoon and B) I don't own a tie and am uncertain what a dress shirt is so therefore do not know if I own one or not.

---

Go to a decent, but not the most expensive, department store. Say these words to the clerk "I have a job interview tomorrow and I need a dress shirt and a tie. I can't afford to spend too much. Please help me."

They will help you.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio.:
B) I don't own a tie and am uncertain what a dress shirt is so therefore do not know if I own one or not.

---

Probably the easiest way is to go to somewhwere like Marks and Spenser or Burtons. They have sets of shirts and ties around £20. If you buy a shirt and tie set then you can be sure of them matching.

If you are not too hot on matching colours, then I would suggest that you take your suit jacket along to the shop. The assistant will help select a shirt and tie combination that will go with your suit and your skin tone.

Please remember to iron the shirt before you wear it.
 

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Posted by babybear (# 34) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio.:
I've stated on the thread that I own three suits.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio.:
...I've stated on the thread that I own three suits.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio.:
A) I have a job interview tomorrow afternoon and B) I don't own a tie and am uncertain what a dress shirt is so therefore do not know if I own one or not.

---

Go to a decent, but not the most expensive, department store. Say these words to the clerk "I have a job interview tomorrow and I need a dress shirt and a tie. I can't afford to spend too much. Please help me."

They will help you.

---

I find asking women that are standing around (unless mine is with me), or a gay man, for their opinion helps to determine which shirt/ties look good on me.
 

---

Posted by Papio. (# 4201) on :
 
I've also had some PMs about this...

And am beginning to see why my skills and qualifications have not yet landed me a job.

So thanks.
 

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Posted by TrudyTrudy (I say unto you) (# 5647) on :
 
I couldn't answer the poll because I couldn't define either "well" or "important."

I am only happy in my jeans. I want to live, die, and be buried in my jeans. Jesus will raise up me and my blue jeans on the Resurrection morning.

However, I do accept that there are some circumstances in which jeans are not appropriate. Currently I'm job-hunting. Even though the places I'm hunting are community agencies where the at-work dress is decidedly casual (jeans on the job probably OK), I would still wear dress slacks and a niceish shirt or sweater for an interview, just to show that I can clean up if I have to.

I was raised to always, always, always wear a skirt or dress to church though the heavens fall. In the last few years I have occasionally unbent to the point of wearing dress slacks to church on a very cold winter morning but it always feels sinful.

My husband and I both prefer jeans so would dress casually for a night out together, unless we were going somewhere particularly classy, which we hardly ever do.

I think the only "importance" of dressing "well" is in the effect it has on other people. If you're in a situation where the opinions of others matter a great deal, dress in a way they will consider "well-dressed." For the other 99% of situations, please yourself.

PS--If MadGeo is wearing a thong, I don't want to know about it.

[ 14. June 2005, 16:51: Message edited by: TrudyTrudy (I say unto you) ]
 

---

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio.:
Is it really essential to wear to a tie to a job interview?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mad Geo:
Funerals/Museums/Concerts/Etc. - Suit with tie.

---

quote:

---

California - We have our own standards, you are just going to have to look like the rest of us. Shorts and thongs are sometimes appropo where they wouldn't be elsewhere.

---

quote:

---

Hollywood/New York - All black if you live/work in Hollywood even when you can cook eggs on the sidewalk its so bloody hot.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
Cruelly, it can be as bad to overdress as to underdress. So unless you have worked in a particular environment it is very hard to know what is expected.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mad Geo:
Funerals/Museums/Concerts/Etc. - Suit with tie.

---

Museums? No. Casual wear to a museum, unless it's the opening reception for a show.

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

Hollywood/New York - All black if you live/work in Hollywood even when you can cook eggs on the sidewalk its so bloody hot.

---

Also very true, at least of Hollywood (don't know about New York). Those people are crazy. But if I had stayed in the job I briefly had in Hollywood, I'd have bought black clothes.

---

I'm at work now. The two other men nearest me at the desk and myself are all wearting black T-shirts and black jeans. The other two are wearing black trainers with black socks - but I'm wearing black Docs. So it must work in London as well
 

---

Posted by Mad Geo (# 2939) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mad Geo:
Funerals/Museums/Concerts/Etc. - Suit with tie.

---

Museums? No. Casual wear to a museum, unless it's the opening reception for a show.
....

---

I'm just the messenger there. The Teutonic Goddess weighed in with that one while I was posting.

Personally, I'd be fine in a thong at the museum, just for Trudy, of course.
 

---

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by leonato:
I beleive the rule should be, dress as you would be expected to dress for that job, or marginally smarter.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leonato:
Wearing a suit when the job would never require a suit just looks like you are trying too hard.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
It's ironic really that in these days of equal opportunities at work an interview is one place where you really do have to wear gender-specific clothing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leonato:
I beleive the rule should be, dress as you would be expected to dress for that job, or marginally smarter.

---

Having both interviewed and been interviewed, that is genuinely not the case. Candidates and interviewers consistently dress more formally than they would in normal daily work.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
Ah, but there's one rule for interviewers and another for interviewees. ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leonato:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leonato:
I beleive the rule should be, dress as you would be expected to dress for that job, or marginally smarter.

---

Having both interviewed and been interviewed, that is genuinely not the case. Candidates and interviewers consistently dress more formally than they would in normal daily work.

---

Perhaps my experience in academia is unusual then, where trousers and a shirt (no tie)would be perfectly acceptable. I've had interviewers dressed exactly as they would normally dress for work, casual trousers, sweaters and all.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leonato:
Perhaps my experience in academia is unusual then, where trousers and a shirt (no tie)would be perfectly acceptable.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
....If nothing else buy yourself a nose hair trimmer....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
It's ironic really that in these days of equal opportunities at work an interview is one place where you really do have to wear gender-specific clothing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
Don't listen to the Americans about a "dress shirt", its a concept that doesn't exist here, or if it does it doesn't filter throug to the mundane world of work. If you asked for one in a shop they might try to sell you the kind of shirt you wear with a dinner jacket, which is very much not what you want. The point is to wear a shirt that goes with a suit, or with clothes as much like a suit as you can afford if you don't have a suit.

---

A dress shirt does go with a suit, it's designed to go well with a suit. It also goes nicely by itself with khakis or slacks for less formal occasions, which a job interview is not one of.

Just so we're communicating clearly, these are dress shirts. (Perhaps you call them something else in your land.)

Just to hammer the nail down more, "dress shirts" are those shirts made to be worn with a tie. They have wider collars to cover the tie, they don't have epaulets or bellows pockets, pocket flaps, are either solid colors or muted patterns.

Papio, to help you out, here are some job interview "must do's":

1) Show up at least 5-10 minutes early. Many times you'll run into last-minute delays, anything from a stuck elevator to a traffic jam to an overly-crowded waiting room. Being late to a job interview is a kiss of death.

2) Brush your teeth before the interview. If you eat prior to the interview, brush your teeth again. Food particles inyour teeth are singularly repellant.

3) Make sure your fly is zipped shut. Unless you're interviewing as a stripper at the Boom Boom Lounge, flying low is a bad idea.

4) Wear clean, ironed clothes. No food stains, unrepaired holes or tears, missing buttons, weirdly folded shirt collars or coat lapels.

5) Clean hair and fingernails are non-negotiable. No weird hair styles like spiked mohawks or anything that makes your head look like you're wearing a neon-colored sea anemone. Remove any facial jewelry other than a discrete earring.

6) Be polite, civil and courteous during the interview.

The sites listed below give you excellent advice.

One thing I can't stress enough is, act professionally at all times. Act like a professional and almost all times you'll be treated like one. If you go into an interview with a bad attitude ("It's all bollocks, innit?" or, "All you people are pathetic!"), trust me, it will come across, but you won't as you'll be shown the door quickly.

Yeah, there's a certain amount of hypocrisy in interviewing and everyone knows it, but everyone plays by its rules. Most times, you always dress better at interviews than you do on the job. No interviewer expects you to volunteer to work for her company just for the privilege of it. The point is, in a job interview you are selling a product: Yourself. If you want a job, you have to do what it takes to make yourself attractive to the buyer: The potential employer.

Job interview tips #1
Excellent job tips #2

Tips from monster.com

[ 14. June 2005, 17:53: Message edited by: KenWritez ]
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
There are real cultural and national differences of course. And in general, after working for a US company for 14 years, I can say the Americans tend to take formal clothing at work more seriously than we do. But even in Britain it is almost never a bad move to wear a suit and tie to an interview.

Though there are regional differences in the US. New York was our poshest large office, all suits & ties, then Houston, then Tulsa, then wherever-it-was in California, with Denver the most informal. Unless they were doing it as a joke - we had a videoconference once where they were wearing cowboy hats. Indoors?

There are some circles where suit without tie would be more acceptable than tie without suit, such as some parts of advertising or film making. But even there I suspect it is rarely wrong to wear the full clobber.
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
Then again, you could always just turn up for the interview in your birthday suit.
 

---

Posted by Gremlin (# 129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio.:
And am beginning to see why my skills and qualifications have not yet landed me a job.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gremlin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio.:
And am beginning to see why my skills and qualifications have not yet landed me a job.

---

Skills and qualifications won't ever land you the job... they can only get you the interview. Once you've met the people involved, who you are, and how you present yourself are much more important. Afterall, for many interviewers, the real question is not 'can this person do the job' but 'do I want to spend my working days with this person'.

...

---

Good point. Someone without the skills and qualifications won't get an interview in the first place.
 

---

Posted by ORGANMEISTER (# 6621) on :
 
TrudyTrudy, I'll be glad to play your funeral service even if you want to be laid out in jeans. Would you consider "dressy" jeans? I'm sure Ralph Lauren has just the thing for you.
 

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Posted by TrudyTrudy (I say unto you) (# 5647) on :
 
Actually, as I think I prefer a closed casket, it's just occurred to me that I really can wear what I like, and even the organist won't know or care.
 

---

Posted by M. (# 3291) on :
 
Another pond difference! Over here, as I think it was Ken said earlier, a dress shirt is one to go with black tie, dinner suit. I don't think we have a specific name to go with a shirt you wear with a tie - just call it 'a shirt you wear with a tie'.

M
 

---

Posted by Grits (# 4169) on :
 
A dress shirt generally refers to a long-sleeved button-up collared shirt. Over here, you might say, "Just wear a dress shirt and a pair of khakis, dear."
 

---

Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :
 
Papio --

Reinforcing M's point and Ken's -- in the UK a "dress shirt" means the kind of shirt worn with dinner dress. It certainly does not mean what we in North America mean by the term. Do not go looking for a dress shirt.

What the NOrth Americans mean and what you want, is a standard white (or blue, just possibly) shirt. The kind with a collar. But it has to be ironed, not crumpled. As someone said, wander through M&S and they usually have shirt and tie combinations on display. As you have suits, I should be astonished if you don't have one -- after all, how else would you wear the tie you probably have lurking around in the back of the wardrobe. Unless of course, you use it as a belt .

Best of luck.

John
 

---

Posted by Gremlin (# 129) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mad Geo:
Is your resume absolutely, positively PERFECT and does it fit on ONE page (academia excluded)? Errors on a resume are COMPLETELY unacceptable (and I see them way more often than I like).

---

quote:

---

I recommend that you walk in with a nice leather type folder/binder in hand so you can take notes, with multiple copies of your resume (on offwhite paper), and multiple copies of your three best references on another sheet of the same offwhite paper. That way if they ask for your references you can hand it to them, if not, hand it to them anyway so you look prepared.

---

I have to say that that would be over-the-top for an interview in the UK.

Your resume (or CV) should already be in their hands, so there's no need to take along extras. I've never seen an interviewee take notes (let alone bring along 'a nice leather type folder/binder'), and never received interview advice to suggest such a thing is good practice - whether or not it is, being another question, of course

Taking along copies of your references might be done, but it's rare in my experience. And, oh!, to have the luxury of being able to chose my 'three best references'! If you've been in your last job for more than five years, it's hard enough to get two sufficiently independent and relevant references. Having a note from your priest/minister/doctor saying you're a regular attender (e.g.), just doesn't cut it in IT! (Obviously there are jobs where you can substitute other roles for 'priest/minister/doctor' as they might actually be relevant )

Gremlin
 

---

Posted by Papio. (# 4201) on :
 
OK, I have three choices of shirt without buying a new one (all from charity shops).

Shirt A - White, fits, cuff-links (which I have), looks expensive. White not really my colour (apparently)

Shirt B - Light Green (better), Fits, Doesn't look expensive at all.

Shirt C - Dark Green (Best of all), Looks neither expensive nor inexpensive. Slightly too small (not tight around chest or waist, but there is no visible cuff whatsoever when I have my suit jacket on).

Shirt D - One I would have to buy tomorrow morning. Pref like Shirt C but fits better.

I genuinely don't have a tie.

Suit - Black pinstripe, three buttons at front and 3 on sleeves, from Burtons but bought for £10. They are still selling them in Burton's however.
 

---

Posted by Gremlin (# 129) on :
 
If you're wearing a black pin-stripe suit, I would suggest the white shirt (especially as it fits properly, unlike the dark green one), and if you're prepared to buy a shirt tomorrow morning, I suggest you should pick up a simple tie - say plain red, or light blue. No stripes, no spots, no checks, no yellows, no greens.

Alternatively (and probably wiser), listen to whatever babybear posts on this subject in the morning

Gremlin
 

---

Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
I second Gremlin's point about the white shirt. If it fits, you cannot go wrong with white. And the tie (I cannot emphasize this enough) must be 100% silk. Anything else is just plain wrong. Solid color is good. A simple tiny pattern is acceptable, but nothing overly bold. (Save those for parties.)

Black dress shoes and socks. Make sure your shoes are polished.

Good luck, Papio!

[carp spelling - again]

[ 14. June 2005, 22:57: Message edited by: Campbellite ]
 

---

Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
Sorry for the double post, but it occurred to me that if you do not currently own a tie, you might need a little help on how to tie your tie.

I prefer the Pratt knot. (Kidding aside, John Pratt invented this knot.)

[Think silk. Polyester makes the baby Jesus cry.]
 

---

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
To echo Campbellite, get a good quality tie, even if you think it's shockingly expensive. People notice your tie. They really, really do. And you just look more competent somehow in a good quality one.

The saleswoman who helps me pick my ties is invaluable. I never would pick what she suggests but they're always smashing looking. Different, but not too different. It's a fine line.

(I use a Windsor knot myself most of the time since I'm not very big and most ties would be too long otherwise.)
 

---

Posted by KenWritez (# 3238) on :
 
Black pinstripe suit? White shirt. Definitely. Make sure it's clean and pressed. Save the green shirts for St. Patrick's Day. (You have that over there, right?)

Your shoes should always match your belt. In your case, a black suit = black leather for both belt and shoes. Screw the vegans. (Send Greenpeace a donation out of your first paycheck if you must.) No bizarre, cartoon character or slogan belt buckles, okay? A simple gold or dark metal latch-and-pin, and that's all.

Black shoes = black crew or black over-the-calf dress socks. Always, always, always.
 

---

Posted by Grits (# 4169) on :
 
For the tie, may I suggest something in red?

Good luck, Papio!
 

---

Posted by Cod (# 2643) on :
 
I have never had to wear a suit to work. Probably because I have had 3 years working in IT, and 4 in the charitable sector.

Just as well too. Being both financially and environmentally aware I ride a bicycle. Bicycles ruin clothes. I define even Sine Nominee to find a way round that.

(NB: if he can I'd be very interested to know because I do like to look smart)

At any rate, menswear down here in NZ is excrecable (womenswear by contrast is rather good). Suits are only available in black, it's rare to see someone wear a suit that actually fits him, generally people treat formal menswear as a uniform more than anything else, except for the odd few who inadvertantly make themselves look like pimps.
 

---

Posted by Cod (# 2643) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

(I use a Windsor knot myself most of the time since I'm not very big and most ties would be too long otherwise.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio.:
OK, I have three choices of shirt without buying a new one (all from charity shops).

Shirt A - White, fits, cuff-links (which I have), looks expensive. White not really my colour (apparently)

Shirt B - Light Green (better), Fits, Doesn't look expensive at all.

Shirt C - Dark Green (Best of all), Looks neither expensive nor inexpensive. Slightly too small (not tight around chest or waist, but there is no visible cuff whatsoever when I have my suit jacket on).

Shirt D - One I would have to buy tomorrow morning. Pref like Shirt C but fits better.

I genuinely don't have a tie.

Suit - Black pinstripe, three buttons at front and 3 on sleeves, from Burtons but bought for £10. They are still selling them in Burton's however.

---

Suit OK. White shirt. Strong colours are best avoided, they'll look a little eccentric, and with a formal black suit, a bit overpowering. Leave the pale green at home until you've got the job. Tie, something discreet. Grits suggested red, dark red would be a possibility but avoid the more eye-catching shades. Blue is usually a safe choice; mid-blue would give a bit of colour without being too flamboyant. Just don't go for a bow tie.

And don't feel embarrassed about asking the shop assistant for advice. Just say you need something suitable for an interview and firmly resist any attempt to sell you a bright purple one with Homer Simpson on it.
 

---

Posted by Presleyterian (# 1915) on :
 
What a privilege to be in the virtual company of so many well-dressed men -- or even men who may look like slobs, but at least know better. And congratulations, Papio. You've found the first little sliver of common ground between Ken and Mad Geo.

I was stuck by the comment that people don't like to wear well-tailored clothes because they're perceived as "trendy." That seems utterly off-base to me. Well-tailored clothing is timeless. What's "trendy" is the under-35 uniform of ill-fitting jeans, trainers in colors that gentlemen should abandon by kindergarten, and tee shirts that offer up one's sternum as free advertising for bands, athletic teams, schools, corporate logos, or idiotic slogans about beer or politics that nobody but the wearer finds funny.

I noticed a very well-dressed man on the subway a few weeks ago. He wasn't handsome by any traditional definition, but just looked particularly suave and pulled together in an attractively beefy James Gandolfini kind of way. When he reached up to grab the railing, I could see a label inside his coat that said Raleigh's, a local men's store that's been defunct for about 15 years. And no doubt it flattered him now as much as it flattered him during the waning years of the Reagan administration. Amortized over two decades, what was a pricey jacket back then actually costs him only pennies each time he wears it. Which is why cheap "trendy" clothes are much more of a financial extravagance than a few well-tailored pieces that you'll have for a lifetime.
 

---

Posted by babybear (# 34) on :
 
To re-iterate advice given

The black pinstripe suit with the expensive looking white shirt is definitely the way to go. Black shoes, black socks and black belt are also required.

I disagree with the advice about a silk tie. It would be lovely to have a silk tie, they feel great and hang beautifully. However, for an interview for a recent graduate a silk tie is not required.

Please do not get a navy blue or brown tie to wear with a black suit. It will jar. The same will be true of ties with large patterns. The tie is there to inject a bit of colour and direct attention to the face. Think colourful, whilst being understated.

I suggest a red, purple or blue tie with a small, subtle pattern. Try to avoid a plain coloured tie and on no account a novelty tie or cartoon tie. Ask the assistant for help.

If you have no recent experience in trying a tie it might be best if you go to the shop wearing your interview clothes and ask the person to tie the tie for you! That way you will be sure of getting a well tied tie.
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
The Tie Shop (if you have a branch) used to do a good range of not too expensive silk ties. They might still do. Don't pick something that's obviously polyester and looks cheap. First impressions at an interview are what counts and they are made within the first few seconds of your walking through the door.

You can sometimes get ties in plain colours where the fabric has a pattern woven into them, which can look nice.

I'd suggest you practice wearing this stuff before the interview. You need to feel reasonably comfortable in it - if you are obviously ill-at-ease in your interview clothes that won't help you.

Actually, facial piercings are also a thing to avoid. If you have lots of rings and studs and a spike sticking out of your chin, no matter how well qualified you are, that may well cut down your chances.
 

---

Posted by Grits (# 4169) on :
 
I like yellow ties, too.
 

---

Posted by KenWritez (# 3238) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Presleyterian:
or even men who may look like slobs, but at least know better.

---

Hey! I resemble that remark!
 

---

Posted by Peronel (# 569) on :
 
Agree with the others. White shirt. Dark and well pressed.

If green suits you, which I assume from the shirt discussions it does, then a green tie would be acceptable. A mossy green or a gentle spring green might look nice with the black.

IMHO, plain ties look cheap unless they're silk (and even then they look a bit like a uniform-issue tie), whereas patterned ties can look fine whether or not they're silk. Silk is obviously nicer. Go for a subtle pattern for an interview - perhaps something with a small, repeating geometric pattern. I'm also a huge fan of cravats, especially with a good cravat pin, but they come over as slightly eccentric, which may not be the image you want to convey.

Out of interest, what have you been wearing with your suit, if not a shirt and tie?

Peronel (don't have a tie (female) but always wear the suit to interviews. In my profession a trouser suit for women is the norm.)

[ 15. June 2005, 06:04: Message edited by: Peronel ]
 

---

Posted by Peronel (# 569) on :
 
The first line should read "clean and well pressed"
 

---

Posted by Presleyterian (# 1915) on :
 

quote:

---

KenWritez wrote: Hey! I resemble that remark!

---

Now, now, KenWritez. You're very model of a man who has a distinctive and flattering personal style and sticks with it. OK, perhaps that style could best be described as "Don Ho on Some Really Righteous Blotter Acid," but hey -- it works!
 

---

Posted by frin (# 9) on :
 
I quite like stripes or diamonds on a tie, and have seen some lovely ones in beige and cream, or blue and off-white this year.

Depending on your budget, it might be worth having a look in Burtons. They have men's formal shirts for £8 and up and ties from £7. Their geometric shapes ties are really nice, but don't choose the pink unless you are feeling especially confident!

Incidentally, if the interviewer takes all his clothes off, run for the door.

I've got an interview tomorrow and have to go there straight from work, although noone at work knows I have an interview. Any suggestions on how to look smart enough for the interview without letting on that I'm dressed up? My current coworkers tends towards smart casual or just casual in their attire, so wearing my suit (which is a trouser suit, I don't wear skirt suits to interview) would certainly draw attention.

BTW, I always take a folder to interview containing the directions to the place of interview, any documentation that has been requested and my own copy of the application form and/or my CV. If like to imagine that if I suddenly blanked about something, that I would be game enough to ask to refer to my own CV, or to use my copy to guide their attention to relevant things thereupon. I've not had to test this yet. The folder is usually whichever looks the smartest of those I have available.

'frin
 

---

Posted by Papio. (# 4201) on :
 
Right,

Black Leather Shoes are clean, polished and shone.
Shirt is clean and well-pressed.
Socks are black.
Belt is is black leather.
Suit is comfy, well-cleaning and clean.

I don't recognise myself tbh.

Only problem now is: it's pouring with rain and I mean
pouring
 

---

Posted by ferijen (# 4719) on :
 
Good luck interview-attendees!

As someone who doesn't own a suit (can SOMEBODY point me towards a suit jacket which doesn't make a "curvy", short and.. ahem... top heavy woman look stupid, please let me know) I'd say - what about wearing the trousers and a fitted-ish T-shirt for work. T-shirts can go under jackets or, if they're not formal enough, can easily be changed in a loo on the way out of work/wherever you happen to find one. Jackets can be kept in a car/bag/back of chair...

For my last job interview (this one!), I wore fishnets and knee high boots, which is not a combination I usually do, but I thought... why not, I don't really want this job (yeah, I know I'm here now ). Though I hasten to add I was wearing an ankle length skirt so the effect was purely personal. Top tip: wear nice underwear to an interview, it makes you feel better. And polish your shoes

(ETA: that's for Frin)

[ 15. June 2005, 10:27: Message edited by: ferijen ]
 

---

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Grits:
A dress shirt generally refers to a long-sleeved button-up collared shirt.

---

quote:

---

Moo said:
In the US we speak of dress shirts and sport shirts.

Dress shirts are made to be worn with a tie; sport shirts are made to be worn without a tie.

I can't tell you the exact difference in design. However a dress shirt without a tie and a sport shirt with a tie both look peculiar.

Moo

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ferijen:
(can SOMEBODY point me towards a suit jacket which doesn't make a "curvy", short and.. ahem... top heavy woman look stupid, please let me know)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by seasick:
What do you call shirts that are to be worn with dinner suits then?

---

I think Americans call them 'tuxedo shirts'.

'frin, how about getting Dyfrig to take you out for dinner (or even just a coffee) after the interview. Then if anyone asks you can say that you are going out after work.

ferijen, I have the same problem. I can not get traditional suits to fit me properly. They make me look 2-3 sizes bigger than I am. I have bought a couple of outfits from Weekenders. I have bought a blazer and long straight skirt in navy and in also in 'orchid'. They flatter my figure so much better than a traditional suit. They are soft and feminine whilst still being suitable for a woman going for interviews in a male dominated business.
 

---

Posted by sharkshooter (# 1589) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by babybear:

quote:

---

Originally posted by seasick:
What do you call shirts that are to be worn with dinner suits then?

---

I think Americans call them 'tuxedo shirts'.

...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Moo:
In the US we speak of dress shirts and sport shirts.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Curiosus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ferijen:
(can SOMEBODY point me towards a suit jacket which doesn't make a "curvy", short and.. ahem... top heavy woman look stupid, please let me know)

---

Have you looked at Bravissimo? They describe themselves as a company that does "lingerie, swimwear and clothing for big boobed women" (their words, not mine!). The suit jacket is tailored in regular sizes 8-16 across the shoulders and waist but comes in three chest sizes (curvy, really curvy and super curvy). Their lingerie is rather good, too!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by babybear:
polo shirt

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio.:
Black Leather Shoes are clean, polished and shone.
Shirt is clean and well-pressed.
Socks are black.
Belt is is black leather.
Suit is comfy, well-cleaning and clean.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by babybear:
dress shirt
shirt
casual shirt
polo shirt
sports shirt

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio.:
...

Only problem now is: it's pouring with rain and I mean
pouring

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sharkshooter:
I would call them, in order, Tuxedo shirt, dress shirt, shirt, golf shirt and T-shirt.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sharkshooter:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio.:
...

Only problem now is: it's pouring with rain and I mean
pouring

---

Call a taxi. You do not want to show up wet.

---

There is good news and bad news on the subject of my interview.

Bad News: I panicked and bought a "jazzy" tie, which I wore to the interview. I noticed afterwards that it was 100% polyester. The first two cabs I called didn't know the address of the charity (or claimed not to). When I was asked about what to do if a service user had an accident, I forgot to mention that one should log the accident in an accident log book.

Good News: I was successful. And they told me so then and there, with another person waiting for her interview. Is that good practice?

The interview lasted 45 minutes and they seemed to have made up their mind to hire me looooong before that was through. I got the impression, towards the end, that they were only asking me questions for precedures sake since they barely gave me time to utter a couple of sentences before asking the next question. Sometimes, not as long as that.

But, anyway, I was successful (subject to an enhanced CRB check, good references and the clients not hating me).
 

---

Posted by TrudyTrudy (I say unto you) (# 5647) on :
 
Wonderful news, Papio (a bit horrible for the person waiting for the next interview, but perhaps they had another possible position in mind?) Obviously the jazzy tie didn't hurt at all!
 

---

Posted by Mad Geo (# 2939) on :
 
Excellent! Congratulations!
 

---

Posted by The Machine Elf (# 1622) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by leonato:
Perhaps my experience in academia is unusual then, where trousers and a shirt (no tie)would be perfectly acceptable. I've had interviewers dressed exactly as they would normally dress for work, casual trousers, sweaters and all.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio.:
Good News: I was successful. And they told me so then and there, with another person waiting for her interview. Is that good practice?

---

There you are, you see, I bet she wasn't wearing a suit and tie. All our advice paid off. You probably knocked 'em dead as you entered the room, and they were so stunned by the smartness of your appearance that they looked no further. You have felt the Power of the Suit, and your life has been transformed.

Congratulations, by the way.

[ 15. June 2005, 18:16: Message edited by: Ariel ]
 

---

Posted by Papio. (# 4201) on :
 
Thank you to everyone.
 

---

Posted by Grits (# 4169) on :
 
Way to go, Papio. The combination of you and that new tie was just unbeatable!
 

---

Posted by frin (# 9) on :
 
Well done, Papio.

My suit's ironed and ready to go. I'm just looking to see which of my bags is best to put it into and which I want to take into the interview.

'frin
 

---

Posted by Papio. (# 4201) on :
 
(I should point out that it does depend on references and on the residents giving me the thumbs up, so is not certain. It seems likely, though.)

Good luck 'frin. I hope it goes well for you, too.

[ 15. June 2005, 20:43: Message edited by: Papio. ]
 

---

Posted by KenWritez (# 3238) on :
 
Congrats, Papio! You make me proud, boy!
 

---

Posted by babybear (# 34) on :
 
Yay! Well done from Gremlin and me. Hope that everything works out well.

Back in December Gremlin was looking for work. The first thing he did was register with agencies and then start work on his CV. The next step to make sure that his clothes were suitable for interview. He invested in a new suit, a wool overcoat, two new shirts and ties. Despite being desperate to not to spend money whilst he was unemployed, we knew that the investment in those new clothes was essential.
 

---

Posted by smatt (# 103) on :
 
Many congatulations Papio...

...and all best wishes to Fran

x
smatt
 

---

Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by frin:
I've got an interview tomorrow and have to go there straight from work, although noone at work knows I have an interview. Any suggestions on how to look smart enough for the interview without letting on that I'm dressed up?
'frin

---

Wear the suit anyway. If anyone asks, explain that you haven't done laundry yet, and your suit was all that was clean.

Then smile sweetly.
 

---

Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on :
 
When I was laid off four years ago, I decided that I was not in a mood to interview anywhere that required a suit. (I didn't own one. I do now, but wear it so far only to funerals.) It took me 31 days to find a new job.
 

---

Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on :
 
Nor a tie, actually. Polo (golf) shirt and slacks was all I ever wore.
 

---

Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
Yeah Papio!

In spite of the p*lyester tie.
 

---

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Henry Troup:
It took me 31 days to find a new job.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ferijen:
(can SOMEBODY point me towards a suit jacket which doesn't make a "curvy", short and.. ahem... top heavy woman look stupid, please let me know)

---

Lane Bryant-- although right now they're in the middle of their Summer collection, and it seems that for this company, 'summer' means "Let's use up all our hideous fabric!" Wait until August, they'll get real colors back in stock.
 

---

Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
Congrats, Papio and I hope the follow-up work goes without a hitch.

Jennifer // wife and mother to males who hate to dress up but look like sexy dynamite when they do *sigh*

especially in black suits with white shirts *sigh* *sigh*
 

---

Posted by Cod (# 2643) on :
 
Excellent news Papio. Many congratulations.

NB: if you are feeling nervous about your first day at work, let me tell you a story my wise father told to me about his first day at work. He is a doctor.

Anyway, on this particular day the consultant showed him through a ward full of people with head injuries, and tubes sticking out of various bits of their anatomies. The consultant briefly described what the situation of each patient was before then saying "Right - you're in charge now".

My father immediately ran to the toilet and was physically sick because of sheer nerves.

So remember - if it seems bad, it could be worse
 

---

Posted by Papio. (# 4201) on :
 
On the way into one of my university examinations, one young lady was so nervous that she puked all over the floor of the examination room.

Lovely.

Thanks again for the congrats.
 

---

Posted by frin (# 9) on :
 
I just got home to find the phone ringing and I've been offered the job (subject to references etc.). So I've accepted it!


Btw, my body shape is very like the one you described, Ferinjen. My current suit is from M&S, though it took a lot of trying everything to find one that fitted well. My mother's suit that I borrow sometimes is from Ann Harvey in the sales.

'frin

[ 16. June 2005, 15:51: Message edited by: frin ]
 

---

Posted by KenWritez (# 3238) on :
 
Yay 'frin!
 

---

Posted by babybear (# 34) on :
 
Wooo hooo! Well done 'frin. They made a good and sensible choice.
 

---

Posted by Papio. (# 4201) on :
 
Congratulations, 'frin.
 

---

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
May I humbly present THE TRUTH about what men in central London ACTUALLY WEAR on working days?

Armed only with my trusty notebook and pen, and a good short-term memory reinforced by a truly amazing dose of pedantry, I carried out a small survey of what kind of shirts the men around me are wearing.

This was done on a working day and includes a passage through Waterloo Station, so it is perhaps biased towards the commuter and office-worker section of the population. It also included what I saw out of the window on a bus trip from there to Russell Square, and some people I passed on my way to work, so there will be a healthy dose of students and tourists. (Conversely there will be few unemployed or elderly men in the list)

Shirts (i.e. real shirts, of the sort you can wear a tie with): 394

196 - no jacket no tie
65 - jacket but no tie
261 in all without tie

106 - jacket & tie
27 - no jacket but with tie
133 in all with tie

T-shirts 175 - of which 11 were being worn with suits or jackets (& yes, they could have been long-sleeved)

Nerd-shirts (sensu Trudy): 64

Long-sleeved T-shirts sweatshirts, light-weight polo-necks & the like: 43

Sports-shirts: 12

Things with zips: 7

Hideous short-sleeved shirts with grotesque patterns, or giant corporate logos, or else a collar cut so wide that it could not feasiblyt be buttoned up but must always reveal the hair chest of the wearerm and which in any case no reasonable man could consider wearing a tie with: 6

Vest: 1

Asian-like shirts with wrap-around collars: 1

African-like shirts with spectacular patterns: 1


Some remarks:

When I say jacket above I mean a business suit, or a "respectable" jacket of a similar sort. I am not including overcoats, waterproofs, anoraks, cagoules, anything with zips, anything with corporate logos, military or police uniform, woolly jumpers, cardigans, puffy things, fluffy things, or anything that looks remotely functional. This is not an outerwear survey.

In London, men are much more likely to wear a suit without a tie than they are to wear a tie without a suit (or suit-like jacket). It is possible that some of those men had ties with them that they put on in the office but removed while walking in the street or travelling by train (as I often used to when I wore a tie to work)

No-one seems to wear 3-piece suits any more. The only 2 or 3 waistcoats I saw were above T-shirts.

"Vest" means a sleeveless collarless soft cotton garment with two straps going over the shoulders. It is usually regarded as underwear. It is not the thing that some Americans call a "vest" and we call a "waistcoat".

"Nerd shirts" are Trudy's name for the things like a T-shirt but with a divided collar & maybe a few buttons at the top. I used to wear them in the 1970s. In the 1980s & early 90s I sometimes wore similar things with long sleeves and round necks. I don't think I have any any more.

As far as this survey can tell, Nerd-shirts are mostly worn by middle-aged or older men. Many of them seem to be part of a uniform - quite a lot of the wearers had corporate branded ones, or were wearing them under those yellow shiny waistcoats that are nowadays the sign of the manual labourer and the police officer.

Long-sleeved T-shirts seem to be favoured by younger men, ordinary short-sleeved ones by all ages. Logos or patterns on T-shirts are perhaps not as popular as they once were - quite a lot of the men had plain coloured ones (including maybe all those who went in to or came out of RADA)

Short-sleeved shirts are often worn by Asians, & middle-aged white men with rather large bellies. (though I fit the second category & I avoid them - my sleeves are rolled up, not cut off)

"Sports shirts" are sportswear, or fanwear, in team colours, with the logos of your favourite team and often the number of your favourite player. Most of the ones seen here were worn by teenagers or younger boys. Had this survey included a Saturday night at my local pub, there would have been far more than twelve of them, many worn by men old enough to know better twice over (one of the ones on this list was a Charlton FC shirt worn by a bloke at least 65 years of age)

The thing I called an "Asian-like" shirt is one of the Indian garments often worn by Muslims (though shorter than the long flowing ones you see sometimes). If I'd done the survey in East Ham there would have been rather more of them.

The thing I called an "African-like" shirt is a bit like what might be called a Hawaian shirt, but more sort of African. Had I done this survey at church last Sunday I would have clocked half-a-dozen of them, and at least twenty full-blown sets of West African robes. But not in central London on a working day.

[ 16. June 2005, 18:32: Message edited by: ken ]
 

---

Posted by Rangatira (# 8232) on :
 
Ken, thank you, you made my day
 

---

Posted by Papio. (# 4201) on :
 
Ken, you actually stood there counting types of shirt?


 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Ken:

Next time I have an OU exam in Leeds I might do the same for women at Leeds station. However expected date is somewhere around April 2006

Jengie
 

---

Posted by Cod (# 2643) on :
 
Many contratulations 'Frin.

NB: I own a 'nerd shirt'. I originally bought it for playing cricket. It has three-quarter length sleeves.


Interesting how few 'things with zips' there Ken saw.
 

---

Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Henry Troup:
It took me 31 days to find a new job.

---

Would you like fries with that?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Henry Troup:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Henry Troup:
It took me 31 days to find a new job.

---

Would you like fries with that?

---

Nope, Technical Lead in software development

---

Would you like bugs with that?
 

---

Posted by KenWritez (# 3238) on :
 
Repeat after me: "It's not a bug, it's a feature!"

(Yeah, like I need software with the "random reboot with auto file delete" feature.)
 

---

Posted by babybear (# 34) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Henry Troup:
Still there after four years, now a first-level manager.

---

Ah! Well there you go. If you had dressed properly at the interview you would not have been subjected to this 'management' crap. You could have been a real person instead.
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
OK, out of interest I did my own quick poll to see what the men of Oxfordshire were wearing this morning. It is a warm, very humid June day so this should be taken into account.

T shirt, rugby shirt, Fred Perry, other non-shirt type thing, etc: 42
Shirt only: 19
2 piece suits with tie: 18
Shirt with tie: 17
Jacket with shirt and no tie: 11
Desert camouflage: 2
3 piece suits, both with watch-chains: 2
Fluorescent overalls: 2, 1 with tie
Jacket only (no shirt or tie): 1
Shirt with tie around neck instead of collar: 1
Safari costume minus pith helmet: 1
Thick woolly sweater: 1
Tracksuit: 1
Tie only (no jacket or shirt): 0
Topless: 0

[ 17. June 2005, 12:26: Message edited by: Ariel ]
 

---

Posted by Astro (# 84) on :
 
In London the wearing of Tie's seems to be age related. I notice few men under 30 wear one even those wearing expensive suits and who appear to be working at (or visiting) finacial institutions.

Whereas for my parents generation men would rarely appear in public without a tie (expect when playing sports or on the beach)
 

---

Posted by TrudyTrudy (I say unto you) (# 5647) on :
 
Ken, you give a whole new meaning to the term "pedant" ... and I love it. It makes me just want to go stand on a street corner with a notebook.
 

---

Posted by babybear (# 34) on :
 
I might be in one of the 'Tie Central' parts of the world. The Isle of Man is quite famous for its banking and financial services. A large proportion of the working population is employed by a financial company. I was in town yesterday lunchtime and the vast majority of men were wearing suit and tie.
 

---

Posted by Papio. (# 4201) on :
 
As I volunteer several days a week for a respected charity-shop (nameless) and live in an affluent and alledegly extremely cool and trendy small town (nameless), I actually bought some shirts today for a few pounds each. They are all "young men's shirt" and good makes, so I am told. Some are apparently "designer" if that makes any difference to anything.

(The charity shop I work for gets a LOT of donations and I mean a LOT. Expensive clothes that have hardly been worn, recent books that don't look read, lots of academic books, the short of ornaments that you would normally expect to have to shell out £30 or more for etc etc, Violently fashionable CDs, Trendy reading lamps. You get the idea.)

The other volunteers and several of the female customers had great fun telling me what suited me and what didn't. At least they enjoyed it.

Anyway, I have some "new" casual shirts and a purple shirt which needs cufflinks and which may qualify as being what the Americans refer to to as dress shirt except that it is purple. I am currently wearing it, and a pair "casaul" trousers and, I have to say, feeling immensely silly...

Allegedly, most shades of purple, green and brown suit me and I should only wear black for formal wear. Also, I should apparently consider wearing chino's (I have never owned a pair in my life) and "young" cardigans but this is a step to far tbh. I also wouldn't wear a nerd shirt if you paid me.

TBH, a caual shirt with jeans and trainers is mostly about as far as I am prepared to go atm unless at a job interview. What I am wearing now looks ok, I guess, but I look like I intend to go clubbing at one of these places that plays dance music very loudly.

The problem with this is that I dislike dance music (to put it mildy), have no desire whatsoever to look like a chav on the pull or a yuppie at a wine bar and if I went to a rock club in current outfit would be beaten-up. I am willing to make changes, I suppose, but this will take some getting used to, frankly.

I still thinks suits look dumb but I guess that I am in a small minority of the population there.
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

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Originally posted by Papio.:
Ken, you actually stood there counting types of shirt?

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Originally posted by ken:

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Originally posted by Papio.:
Ken, you actually stood there counting types of shirt?

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No, I mostly sat on a moving bus & looked out of the window. I also ticked people in the train & our office & memorised a few walking through the station & the street.

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Fair enough.

I think I'm going to go out, not sure where but I can't be dressed like this on a Friday evening and not go out.

 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
For interviewees:

Please dress according to the role that you are being employed to do. I do not mean working clothes for the role, but clothes that look as if you could do the role properly. e.g. do not turn up with highly manicured hands if you are going to be scrubbing pots and do not turn up for a receptionist post in a sedate organisation looking as if you were going to the poshest night club in town.

Jengie
 

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Posted by MadKaren (# 1033) on :
 
Oooh can I ask some advice? I have an interview for a teacher training place on Thurs. It's going to be a hot day. So what is suitable?

And assuming I'm successful, and decide to invest in a suit for further interviews, should I go for a skirt suit or a trouser suit?

MadKaren
 

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Posted by morganjlee (# 5680) on :
 
My cousin Trudy, Trudy, has told me that she has spread my opinion of polo shirts across the Atlantic, so I had to read this thread. Congratulations Papio, long after the fact, on your dress-for-success story. As for my ten-year-old undiplomatic description of a polo shirt as a nerd shirt, in the presence of my polo shirted friends, I have to admit to looking at polo shirts just this past week, thinking, "I really should buy one of these, Trudy wears them all the time and looks so nice in them..." But I couldn't break down and do it.

As for Ken's pedantic observations of his fellow commuters. After I quit my job at a parochial school, I used to amuse myself playing a game I called "Mountain View Academy Dress Code." In this game I counted the number of people passing a coffee shop who would be dressed "appropriately" according to our convoluted and impossible to enforce dress code. I think in one hour on a Vancouver corner I only counted three people, and they were all Asian females.
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

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Originally posted by MadKaren:
Oooh can I ask some advice? I have an interview for a teacher training place on Thurs. It's going to be a hot day. So what is suitable?

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Originally posted by MadKaren:
The interview will be at a school on the Essex coast.

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Ah - when you said "teacher training" I briefly thought you meant a college where you were going to be a student, not a school where you were going
to be a teacher.

Wear whatever teachers wear at that school, but at the posh and neat end of the spectrum.

A lot of people would still advise wearing skirts rather than trousers for such an interview, and it can't do any harm.

I'd advise a man to wear a suit. You might not need to, but certainly keep whatever it is you wear neat and on the formal side. Slightly too dull is probably better than slightly too flamboyant

In an ideal situation you would take a look at the place first, just casually walking past one morning or afternoon, getting to know the area, seeing who goes in our out, and taking note of how the teachers dress. Then turn up to the interview about as formally dressed as the most formally dressed member of staff.

My guess (& its only a guess) is that teachers somewhere like that would probably dress up a little more than they would in London.

In a slightly different context, someone who teaches computer courses for a living, doing a week or two here and there with anything from 5 to 20 in each class, once told me that he tried to be the second best-dressed person in the room. IN a jeans and T-shirt environment he might wear an open-necked shirt and non-jean type trousers. But if anyone at all was wearing jacket tie, he'd be in a suit. And if they were wearing suits, he'd get his expensive suit out.
 

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Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 

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Originally posted by John Holding:
You had me with you up to the socks.

Socks with sandals?

WHITE SOCKS WITH SANDALS?!

Come come, surely you can do better than that.

John

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Its true! Its true! But there is a "logical" explanation. Earlier in the day I was wearing white, blue and red trainers (with black laces) and a pair of socks were necessary. Later on, I just slipped into something more comfortable. My blue slippers couldn't be found so I grabbed the next best thing to hand.

Does that make things any better?

 

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Posted by MadKaren (# 1033) on :
 

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Originally posted by ken:

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Originally posted by MadKaren:
The interview will be at a school on the Essex coast.

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Ah - when you said "teacher training" I briefly thought you meant a college where you were going to be a student, not a school where you were going to be a teacher.

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A lot of people would still advise wearing skirts rather than trousers for such an interview, and it can't do any harm.

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Actually, with the possible exception of a white tie event, there are no situations nowadays where it is incorrect for a woman to wear trousers.

IMHO trouser suits are better balanced than most skirt suits, and don't become dated as quickly. I vote: trouser suit.
 

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Posted by Arabella Purity Winterbottom (# 3434) on :
 
Our Prime Minister was absolutely pilloried by the press and the establishment when she wore a trouser suit to an official dinner with the Queen.

I thought she looked just fine, she's not the kind of person who looks good in a skirt. And it wasn't an evening dress event.
 

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Posted by babybear (# 34) on :
 
A trouser suit would look fine for most professional interviews.

Things for females to remember for summer interviews - always look professional, do not have lots of flesh on view (arms, legs, cleavage). If you wear wearing sandals make then close toed ones. The biggest one is to remember that you are at work/interview and not at the beach.
 

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Posted by Old Hundredth (# 112) on :
 
Mrs Hundredth and I will be attending a Buckingham Palace garden party next month . Along with the official invitation was guidance on dress code, and it does say that a trouser suit is acceptable for ladies. I am wearing a skirt suit (I bought it at Ann Harvey, paid about twice as much as I normally do for such things, but it fits as if it had been made for me) but Mrs H is contemplating a trouser suit (she has not yet bought her outfit) now that she knows the Queen won't mind. As she is arthritic (Mrs H, that is, not HMQ) and has difficulties pulling up tights, she prefers things that she can wear with socks. Long skirts can be problematic if she trips over them (and as she needs to use a walking stick, she sometimes doesn't have a spare hand to pick up her skirt) so she likes to wear trousers if it doesn't contravene the dress code.
 

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Posted by Curiosus (# 4808) on :
 
A few thoughts on dress for royal garden parties:

The majority of female garden party attendees wear skirt suits/dresses. However, a small minority do wear an elegant trouser suit. From what I recall, the trouser suits tended to be in 'pretty' colours and many had elegant detailing (e.g. piping) that you wouldn't see on a 'business' trouser suit. There are some really pretty trouser suits in the big dept stores at the moment as it's wedding season. Best of all, the sales have just started!

I didn't see anyone wearing white gloves when I went(apart from HM, of course). Hats are definitely de rigeur but don't have to be as fancy as a hat for Royal Ascot.

Don't wear very high heals/stilettos. Court shoes or similar are much more sensible - if you wear heals you'll end up sinking into the grass! An umbrella is also essential if it's grey and overcast as there is nowhere to shelter if the heavens open (you could try competing for a space in the tea tent but, if it rains, it gets more crowded than the tube in rush hour).

Have fun!
 

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Posted by babybear (# 34) on :
 

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Originally posted by Curiosus:
Don't wear very high heals/stilettos. Court shoes or similar are much more sensible - if you wear heals you'll end up sinking into the grass!

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Originally posted by babybear:

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Originally posted by Curiosus:
Don't wear very high heals/stilettos. Court shoes or similar are much more sensible - if you wear heals you'll end up sinking into the grass!

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Let's be honest about this. The real reason Queeny invites people round to her garden is so that the women will aerate the grass for her!

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No chance - we are definitely flat shoe wearers! It will probably be something from the more elegant end of the Hotter catalogue!
 

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Posted by Boopy (# 4738) on :
 

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Originally posted by MadKaren:
Oooh can I ask some advice? I have an interview for a teacher training place on Thurs. It's going to be a hot day. So what is suitable?


MadKaren

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Originally posted by Curiosus:
Now, I realise that a) I'm bound to offend someone and b) I'm going to sound terribly old fashioned, but why is it that very few British women seem to be able to dress elegantly for work during hot weather?

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On the way in to work today I noticed that about two thirds of people were wearing flip flops, spaghetti strap tank tops, very low cut tops, tiny shorts etc.

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Originally posted by Curiosus:
why is it that very few British women seem to be able to dress elegantly for work during hot weather?

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Originally posted by Telepath:
It could be because there is a culture here in Britain of regarding the weather as extreme, and reacting extremely to it. On the rare occasions when we experience anything like definite warmth, it's all OMGTHERESABIGYELLOWTHINGINTHESKY, and many people rush to expose as much flesh as possible, because they can.

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Originally posted by Firenze:

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Originally posted by Telepath:
It could be because there is a culture here in Britain of regarding the weather as extreme, and reacting extremely to it. On the rare occasions when we experience anything like definite warmth, it's all OMGTHERESABIGYELLOWTHINGINTHESKY, and many people rush to expose as much flesh as possible, because they can.

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Ain't it the truth. You have the worst combination - bodies that aren't used to being exposed in clothes that aren't normally worn.

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