Time to roll out the big guns and hunt these subhuman cowards down.
I don't even want to think about the backlash to all this.
Lets get praying.
is it for something our government did that many of us didn't agree with anyway?
there are innocents in this country, just like there are innocent Palestinians under Israeli oppression. there are people here that are just scraping to get by in this society. some of them have been brutally murdered today for "the bigger picture," something many of us don't fully understand anyway.
may injustice bow to Jesus.
i'm scared as hell.
Three hijacked planes. Planes being grounded all over the United States. Armed Forces mobilizing all over the world.
May the United States of America hunt you down and dispose of you in the manner you so deserve.
Love and Hgus
Fee
xxx
Kyrie Eleison.
Sixty passengers and crew on the second.
A car bomb has now exploded outside the State Department in DC.
this is unbelievable -- does anyone really think this is going to solve whatever their problem is?
thousands have gotta be dead
I am sure that the perpetrators think they have done a wonderful and brave thing. Their father below will richly reward them.
Please.
tomb
hellhost
Terrorism strikes I pray that you in America do not have to adopt the paranoia of us looking at every bag unattended.
Oh my god there has been another one as I write there ahve been threats against the London Stoke exchange
Andy
The other had 60
Moo
Threat Level Delta. War, anyone?
Understandably there's a quite a panic here at the moment.
My daughter in Washington is fine, and she plans to walk to church and then walk home. She's lucky she lives close enough.
Moo
They wanted terror. They got it. The flight that crashed in PA originated in Chicago. None of us is safe.
Pray, pray, pray for all those lost in the planes and the buildings.
Moo
Know my prayers are with you all, and all Americans.
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
Apparently this is the anniversary of the Camp David accords. This date seems to have been very carefully chosen.Moo
What are the camp David accords?
Andy
The University is closed, and I am departing to drink gin.
Pax,
HT
Oh dear God, what will become of us.
Hannan Ashrawi and Yasser Arafat have both condemned these attacks in unambiguous terms.
News here is patchy unless one can get to a TV (which I can't in the office!) Most major web news sites are totally overloaded, while the minor ones aren't terribly up-to-date.
It sounds absolutly terrifying - may God be close to all our American shipmates today and keep them from harm.
I tried to get info from the US news sites but they were clogged the Aust. B.C. has news coverage with a latest news tickertape if this is helpful to anyone. http://www.abc.net.au/news/
American Airlines just confirmed that they lost two of their planes in this attack, with a total loss of life at 156 in the planes. Flight 11 from Boston to LA, and Flight 77 (no other info).
United Airlines lost two hijacked planes. The flight from Newark to San Francisco may be the one that crashed near Pittsburgh. Flight 175, from Boston to LAX, is "unaccounted." This is probably the one that hit the Pentagon, but no confirmation on that yet.
The current talking head speculation is that this was organized by Osama ben Ladin (sp?) or the Taliban. No confirmation, of course. They're comparing it to the attack of Pearl Harbor.
All airports in Canada and the US are closed as of this point. All Federal buildings and many office buildings in Washington have been evacuated; Federal buildings in NYC are closed.
There have been no further attacks. The news is just trying to fill in details and analysis (always dubious) is being spouted.
I'm having a hard time visualizing just how many people were in the World Trade Center and Pentagon died. It's so horrifying that I'm just having a hard time grasping it.
A total of four planes were hijacked.
President Bush is travelling to a secure unidentified location. The White House and the Capitol building have been evacuated.
Moo
What I have heard around the office:
1. Every federal building is considered a potential target so all federal workers are being sent home, and roads are getting clogged. I heard this from a number of sources, all who have spouses that are federal workers.
2. A building in Arlington was hit in addition to the Pentegon. This is second hand info that has not been confirmed in the news, but it comes from someone who has a parent that was an eyewitness. Could be muddled communication.
3. The phone system works on and off for local calls, not at all for long distance.
4. Some cell phones work OK, others off and on.
5. We considered sending everyone home, but it looks pretty calm here, so we are waiting to see what happens. It is just that people are distracted by all the news. All the radios are going and people are constantly surfing the Net to find out what is going on. Out the window, it couldn't be more peaceful and it is an absolutely gorgeous day.
6. My partner tells me there is an unconfirmed report of a high-jacked plane circling Dulles Airport, seven minutes from my house. Time to surf and see what is up.
quote:
Originally posted by Dyfrig:
Report from Abu Dhabi media via Guardian site - Democratic Front for the LIberation of Palestine have made a claim of responsibility.
As far as I know, this claim has since been withdrawn (Ananova News 16:32 BST)
news link
though I wouldn't want to guarantee that link working
as my bus crossed the whitestone bridge (between the bronx and queens, and not, thank god, one of the ones that was closed) i could see the smoke and where the towers should have been. nothing to see but cluds of smoke.
we are all scared and angry.
thank you all for your prayers.
ultraspike, good luck to you.
bb
and thank you all for being here. the worst part of this is being home alone. it better having you people to talk to.
i may go and get my daughter out of school early.
I'm going to mass this evening and will hope that it is a requiem.
Rest eternal grant unto them, O Lord.
And may light perpetual shine upon them.
MD
Ultraspike has posted in All Saints. He isn't downtown just now. But has requested prayers for his friends who work in the city.
bb
It must be the work of someone/something smaller, something or someone with absolutely nothing to lose.
I'm sure this goes without saying, but please let us know as soon as you hear anything from Br Chris
God bleses, and PLEASE, please check in ASAP.
If any you have lost friends and loved ones, may God bless you. I pray you haven't.
My brother and his wife are safe. She's stuck somewhere in Washington, but she's safe.
God Blee the families of those who aren't.
With much love,
Gill.
(P.S. let's not have any more threads bashing each other's poliitcal responses to terrorists, eh? Let's just get on with praying and oving).
quote:
(P.S. let's not have any more threads bashing each other's poliitcal responses to terrorists, eh? Let's just get on with praying and oving).
can't agree more Gill! well said!
Love hugs and prayers
Fee
xxx
The City of London has been threatened as well. A friend who works there just informed me that the City was evacuated. If there is a connection, God only knows what is ahead - this may concern the entire western world.
From pestilence, famine and war, Lord God deliver us! Deliver us from evil!
Moo
I really hope that innocent people are not going to suffer in the backlashes that are inevitably going to follow. The last thing we need is any more of this or any reprisals.
O Lord make haste to help us.
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
The World Trade Center was the target of a terrorist bomb some years ago. I wonder why it is a favorite target. It is the biggest thing around. I'm just wondering if there is some other reason.Moo
It can only be to do with the fact that when money ceases trading, everything that everything is built upon, suddenly becomes very shaky indeed.
Just left a msg on my friend's answerphone, so the lines are up and running in some parts of NYC. Still, as the dust starts to settle - I don't think we are going to be able to comprehend the full horror and cost of what has just happened. Feels rather lame to be sitting behind a computer, working - when people are panicking and trapped and dying. All we can do is pray...
Or those who were expecting to fly today!!
David
Very glad he lives in Arlington after all
Heading for Cafe right now!
Latest word is that there were 8 planes hijacked; the ones that haven't crashed already are unaccounted for.
All air travel in US and Canada is shut down. All military centers are on high alert; the taller buildings in downtown Seattle have been evacuated, even though we have no reason to think that planes have targeted them; everybody is just really jumpy.
Definitely a day which will live in infamy. Lord have mercy on us all!
Alex
The WTC had a massive communications setup on the roof or in the upper floors (can't remember which).
The university has closed for a day of prayer. There is an open air mass to be held this afternoon. Yesterday everyone was happy and buzzing with confirmation of U2 coming here. Today I saw people just sobbing.
Feel so helpless, especially being an 'outsider' - what do you do? Pray that some good can come from it, somehow, I suppose - that we can work for peace.
It's all such a mess.
Today I consign to hell anyone who considers actions of war such as this to be the work of Jesus!
The fires are still too bad and debris is still falling. The only ones who are working on it are the firefighters.
Apparently the heat from the burning buildings is extreme.
Moo
As far as the "collapse" of the towers -- judging by the TV videos, there have been secondary explosions (I thought it was a bomb going off) which blew out big chunks of the floors below the original fires. While this is horrible enough, please don't picture the entire structure falling over!
Rumors continue to fly.
I pray that America will be able to deal with this without creating more hatred and misunderstanding in the world.
My sister just called to report that my nephew and his wife who live 1/2 mile from the WTC are OK. Michael was at work in a neighboring building and saw one tower collapse while evacuating. Helen was on her way to work and saw the second plane hit the tower.
Pray for them and for their families.
There are still reports over here of one rogue plane still in the air-though how much longer it can stay there is anyone's guess.
God bless America tonight.
I am deeply shocked by this whole event, words cannot express what I
felt when I learned of it, tears were shed when I saw the footage of the
towers falling in New York.
How much more can we expect in the future,
where does this end?
God knows the timing of all events, but I do feel
the world has entered a newer, darker episode as of today.
Ian
PS the spelling of the Saudi Millionaire terrorist who is widely beleived to be at the heart of this sereis of unprescedented attacks is Osama bin Laden
The poem is too long for me to post in full, but here are the first three lines.
Still falls the Rain--
Dark as the world of man, black as our loss--
Blind as the nineteen hundred and forty nails upon the Cross
If you have a copy of the poem, I recommend it right now. It really speaks to me.
Moo
there are threads in All Saints. Please use them for prayers, and requests.
Matt 5:38-48, though how to make sense of it at a time like this is anyone's guess.
Pt
I would not dream of declaring what God is or is not saying to the world today - but on the whole, I should imagine that he is broken hearted at how things have gone so disastrously wrong, how such hatred could be birthed - and I should like to hope that there is some comfort for every devastated family. At least, thats all I can pray for.
My husband heard from a tradesman who was at one of the sorority houses at Indiana University, where one of the girls has a father who worked at the World Trade Center. Needless to say, she was totally hysterical and inconsolable. I can see in my mind's eye all the children and spouses of the thousands of people who died or have been injured.
How could someone possibly kill thousands of people in one day? And the ripple effect of grief that will be felt for decades to come as children grow up having lost one or more parents; parents losing young adult children; friends bereft; no one left untouched.
I am going to remember this for a long, long time.
Emilie
Libera nos quaesumus Domine, ab omnibus malis, praerteritis, praesentibus et futuris
I should be in bed but there's no point.
Deargoddeargoddeargod...
He Knows.
My Mum once told me about when the trouble erupted in Cuba. She said the street suddenly filled with women rushing to schools to collect their children, but we were at three different schools and she kept thinking, "They'll die without me!"
And the world went on. Perhaps it will this time, too...
Bless those bereaved families and communities, Lord. I feel bad I can't get in the cafe - they can't ever speak with their friends again.
God have mercy on their souls.
the 200 missing firemen fills me with horro. i have a friend whos a fireman in manhatten, no idea if he's safe or not. please pray for him, all (steve is his name).
my husband is on his way home. i also heard from my cousin janet who works not to fare from the site, and shes ok.
there are home made signs on street corners asking people to donate blood.
Dear goodness. So who is it, then? The same lot doing both? One sneaking an opportunity to put the blame on the US?
And will Afghanistan believe them?
There is a large ammunition dump on the outskirts of Kabul. Maybe someone or something ignited it.
Moo
MD
I have since heard that my Brother and Sister -in-law are safe and well, seems they wre abou to go into the FBI HQ in Washington to look around and were told they couldn't, I am thnkful that they are safe, it could have been so different... M y heart goes out to all of you guys in the US who are similarly concerned and haven't yet heard of the fate of relatives , friends and loved ones.
Its nearly 2am here in Wales, don't really feel like going to bed yet.
On another note , I think it is sickening that Ariel Sharon, the Israeli leader is bent on stepping up his military action in the light of today's events, I think he shoulders some of the blame for stirring this whole thing up - the US unswerving in its support of his regime.
Ian
The pictures of the towers burning, shortly after the second plane had crashed, were the first thing that greeted me when I woke up this morning, and I'm sure will be the last image in my mind when I go to bed tonight.
I'm scared to be in the US, even though that's probably completely illogical. I want to be at home with my family in England. Who knows where it's safe - but at least I could be with the people I love.
The consequences of today could be dire. It's just incomprehensible. Where is God in all this?
Rachel.
They shouldn't ming that you have a cold. However, if you've had a serious viral infection in the last 2 months they won't want you. I'm no good - I've just had chicken pox.
Rachel.
No viruses, just a headcold here. Thanks. I'll be donating just as soon as I figure out where I can go.
When I and everyone of my generation is old, we will measure our lives by this day: what our lives were like before the attack, and our lives afterward. I don't even want to go to sleep. I can't stand to think about what I will see.
My prayers tonight I'm sorry to say degenerated into tears and cursing. Then I was lead to open my old Catholic Bible at random and it opened to this, Sirach 35:13-20:
..."when someone prays who has been wronged, the Lord listens. When orphans and widows pour out their prayers, he does not ignore them. The tears running down a widow's cheek cry out in accusation against the one who has caused her distress...the prayer of a humble person goes past the clouds and keeps on going until it reaches the Lord Most High, where it stays until He answers by seeing that justice is done and that the guilty are punished.
"And the Lord will act quickly. He will show no patience with wicked people. He will take vengeance by crushing the wicked. He will completely wipe out the merciless and the arrogant, and will destroy the authority of the wicked. He will give every person what his thoughts and actions deserve. Because of the Lord's mercy, His people will be happy when he has judged their case. In times of trouble His mercy is as welcome as rain after a long drought."
---
I am having trouble forgiving those, including some on this site, who seem to think that we (or Israel) has brought this on ourselves. Attacks on the innocent can never be accepted. Those who attack innocent civilians, in Sbarros or in the WTC, are evil. We must defend the innocent here, before we make excuses for the wicked.
About an hour after I got home and glued myself to the TV, I heard a huge helicopter tear over my house. It came from Dulles and was headed downtown. I simply noted it. Ten minutes later, I heard another one coming and this time I had to go out back for a look. I saw a huge, blue and white helicopter go over and assumed it was a decoy or escort for the President, who they said on the news was about to transfer from Andrews to the White House.
When my gaze returned to ground level, I saw a woman out on the fairway (I live on a golf course) peering at the helicopter just as I had, with her hand shading her eyes. When it was out of sight, she made a nice pitch onto the green with a chance to save par. I couldn't believe she had taken the opportunity with everyone at home to squeeze in a round of golf before sunset, nor that the golf course was still open. The streets had been deserted for hours. I got an image of someone hearing that the Arizona finally sank at the end of the day during Pearl Harbor, and said in reply, "Terrible shame, do you think that's a soft nine iron or a firm wedge from here?" I went inside, saw Bush walk into the White House, and then heard him say among other things to go about our business as usual. It's not going to be that easy for me, and I'm not really sure it's the right thing to do.
I want them to get the bastards that did this, of course. My guess is that we will attack Afghanistan etcetera, if Bin Laden is the guy. Of course, hitting Taliban is a day well spent, if we could be sure of avoiding civilians, but you know how that is.
I hate the irony that it is the very openness of our society which they hate, that allowed them such easy access to the domestic flights they used for their evil.
Reports now say that the plane in PA wasn't shot down. The hijackers killed passengers and crew in an effort to get the pilot to relinquish control, but he refused and finally threw it into an unrecoverable dive before he was murdered.
Funny how we always thought that NATO would require us to defend other countries that were attacked.
And Osama bin Laden is now denying responsibility, even as the FBI is searching Daytona Beach and Broward County. Oh my. Florida is the most heavily-armed state in the universe, so I can only imagine what'll happen if even half the crackers here get ahold of these bastards.
[ 12 September 2001: Message edited by: Erin ]
quote:
Andrew Walker writes:
But shock – and we are all still reeling – militates against reflection and good sense. When Senator Chuck Hagel can tell us that this unprecedented wave of terrorism "is the second Pearl Harbour – I don't think that I overstate it," we know that he does, for this is not the outbreak of the Third World War, or a recognisable strike from one nation state against another. It is, more than likely, the desperate throw of the dispossessed, a suicide mission in the absence of hope.
I'm sorry to have to say that, after four careful readings of the full text of the article on the Ship's front page, I am insulted and upset by Mr. Walker's article.
After cautioning us not to analyse at this time, he blithely writes off this very serious incident as ". . .more than likely, the desperate throw of the dispossessed, a suicide mission in the absence of hope."
Mr. Walker further adds insult to injury by telling Americans that this is not to be equated with Pearl Harbor, as it is "overstated" and not the attack of a nation state or the start of World War Three.
May I remind him firstly, that World War II had been a reality for at least two years prior to the Pearl Harbor bombing, but the U.S. wasn't in it overtly (although we were supporting the British with unlimited money, arms, and military advice). If Mr. Walker is not an American, he may not realize that Pearl Harbor is something that pushes buttons in the American psyche.
Approximately 2400 American military personnel died at Pearl Harbor. The death toll on this direct assault on American civilians may actually be in the tens of thousands. We won't know for weeks. But we'll mourn the entire time we're counting, you can bet on it.
World War Three? Meaning global war? Indeed, what is the war on terrorism but a global war? Any country is as susceptible as the US to what we experienced today. Unless nations who despise terrorism unite to defeat it, we will all be battling this World War Three.
I agree with Mr. Walker that we should be mourning today. I think a great many of us on the Ship are, all over the world.
But don't you dare write off this incident of murder, terror and outrage against Americans as "the desperate throw of the dispossessed, a suicide mission in the absence of hope." That's a slap in the face that jars me right out of my mourning and gets my blood boiling, especially if the dispossessed person dwelling in the absence of hope turns out to be our friend Osama bin Laden, Saudi millionaire terrorist extraordinaire.
I was very sorry to see this article included at the very top of the Ship's page. It's obvious that Mr. Walker didn't choose his words very carefully and lacks a certain sensitivity to both Americans in general and those who are mourning.
Don't bother comforting my family when I'm gone, Mr. Walker. They'll probably punch you right out.
I'm so glad this is Hell and I could get this off my chest. 
quote:
"let's get back to work, the economy can't handle any more blows."
I think the business as usual stance is to send a message to the animals that did this, which is, that we will not knuckle under to terror.
CNN is reporting that there are survivors in the WTC wreckage calling out on cell phones.
The FBI is executing search warrents on post office boxes and homes in South Florida.
-----
Is it just me, or did these terrorists expect this to paralyze our country? Do they realize the backlash that's coming?
Willy
Amos has a closely related loved one in the US. Don't know where. Hope this loved one's OK!
Devastated. I am glad my parents are in San Fran... Although i panicked when I remembered my Dad was sposed to be flying somewhere - turns out he is in LA.
But all major US city buildings were evacuated...
It's all so scary.
Brings back a serial nightmare I had about terrorist invasion... I so hope that wasn't prophecy.
O God, defend us from all perils and dangers...
And I pray Br Chris is OK. Anyone 100% sure of where he is in relation to the WTC?
quote:
go about our business as usual. It's not going to be that easy for me, and I'm not really sure it's the right thing to do.
Erin, may I take this opportunity to say how statesmanlike I thought your President was/ Dear God, how he even stood up and spoke, I don't know. May God bring the administration through this with restraint where necessary, wisdom and courage.
You're all in our hearts and constantly in our thoughts.
love,
Gill
xxx
quote:Could someone explain the reasons they are doing this? I'm in the dark about it.
Originally posted by willyburger:
The FBI is executing search warrents on post office boxes and homes in South Florida.
I hate to be out of step with the christian majority, but if it's Bin Laden, I hope the US takes him out and all his Taliban mates with him.
~Beth
As for 'business as usual': I think that's a lame label (or at least not very descriptive). It's not business as usual. It will be, at the very least, a long time before emotions etc. settle. What will happen (and the sooner the better) is business in defiance of terrorism.
On the other side, I hope the president does declare an official day of mourning. But not yet. Not until a bit of the caos and haze clears.
I think we ought to ask God to give wisdom to Bush and his advisors in the comming days and weeks about how to...retaliate is such a passive word.
About Florida-
Apparently FBI et al found names on plane manifests of suspected bin Laden cohorts who were aboard. They traced these 'people' to Broward and Tampa counties.
----
From the newsroom, Honolulu Advertiser
I hope and pray that the US will allow a plane to enter the country so that emergency teams outside of the States can get in and give aid.
bb
As for life going on normally, yes, well, sadly, it does. Seven years ago, I was sitting in a church at the funeral of a close friend who had died aged 21. When I looked out the window, I was amazed to see a bus drive by. I couldn't believe that buses were still running, did they not know that Cath had been robbed of life, that she was dead, that my life would never be the same again? This tragedy would have been the same if just one person had died and not God-know how many thousands. Its always a life altering tragedy when you lose someone you love.
So, the Bible I read tells me that I should weep with those who weep and comfort those who need comfort'. Seems like all there is left to do.
I can't help feeling this is a time for tears not action. Let that come later when the facts are known and justice can be done. Please God.
Even though I live in England I have been constently SMSing my best friend & my girlfriend telling them I love them & everything will be okay, even though I'm not sure it will be myself.
I wish I had the words to say to all my American brothers & sisters out there, all I say is that I pray for all of you, that I love you all & that I promise that the good people are the majority.
Given the precision with which these planes were steered into their respective targets, there must have been at least one pilot in each hijack team. I find it impossible to believe that any American pilot would have flown a plane into a building full of people.
I know that two carrier groups (including one from Mayport) are sailing into NY Harbor to serve as hospitals and assist in the clean up. I don't know when they will resume international flights (domestic flights are tentatively set to resume this morning).
As for Bush: it's the ones who are calm in the face of tragedy that you have to worry about. Ninety percent of Americans are fully behind any military action taken against these terrorists and the governments who protect them. More than eighty percent are willing to go to war. And I'm right there with them.
Apparently the Taleban are offering to extradite bin Laden. Good, I hope.
It's very quiet this morning - there are no planes overhead. It's eerie.
quote:
Originally posted by Joan the Dwarf:
Apparently the Taleban are offering to extradite bin Laden. Good, I hope.
Hm. If that's true, I bet it comes with a whole gallery of conditions.
The People Of The Other Village
hate the people of this village
and would nail our hats
to our heads for refusing in their presence to remove them
or staple our hands to our foreheads
for refusing to salute them
if we did not hurt them first: mail them packages of rats,
mix their flour at night with broken glass.
We do this, they do that.
They peel the larynx from one of our brothers’ throats.
We devein one of their sisters.
The quicksand pits they built were good.
Our amputation teams were better.
We trained some birds to steal their wheat.
They sent to us exploding ambassadors of peace.
They do this, we do that.
We canceled our sheep imports.
They no longer bought our blankets.
We mocked their greatest poet
and when that had no effect
we parodied the way they dance
which did cause pain, so they, in turn, said our God
was leprous, hairless.
We do this, they do that.
Ten thousand (10,000) years, ten thousand
(10,000) brutal, beautiful years.
Thomas Lux
(10,000 years is the rough number of years humans have engaged in civilizations)
Not that I blame anyone who is gunning for revenge. My first reaction was fury.
I thank and praise God for this web site and all the shipmates. Throughout the postings of pain, anger, lamentation, grief, shock, bewilderment, love and compassion, there has been a shining thread of trust in God that stirs an echo in me and gives me hope. Thank you and bless you all for that.
I am sure today that Christians everywhere will be called to account for their faith.
Dear Lord, help us to reflect your love and grace in this time of turmoil. Amen.
And has Brother Chris surfaced yet?
Andy
I just want to let you know that everybody at Fessenden House is safe and accounted for. Yesterday was horrible. Yonkers is about ten miles from lower Manhattan, but we could see the smoke and ash plume from our front porch and we heard the thunderous noise as each tower collapsed a few seconds after seeing it on TV. One of our residents, Charlie, was frantic because his girlfriend, Mitzi, was at school in lower Manhattan, just two blocks from the WTC, when this all started happening, and he couldn't get in touch with her, nor she with him. She made it home finally at about 8:00 last night, tired, filthy and scared. She had been in City Hall Park already walking home when the first tower fell and got caught in the leading edge of the debris, etc. As far as we can tell from the TV pictures her school, Pace University, was caught in the shower of flames and debris as the north tower collapsed.
We had a Eucharist here at the house last night. Bishop Roskam was our celebrant. This was intended to be a festive celebration in honor of the patrons of our chapel, Constance and her Companions, but it turned out to be something very different. Halfway through the Eucharist the bishop had to excuse herself as she ran to the bathroom vomiting. The stress and horror of the day just suddenly became too much for her.
I haven't been able to take in what everybody has been writing. I'm still pretty numb and feel like a zombie. I guess I'm still in shock.
Much love to all,
Chris
I can guess what everyone world over is feeling as I sit here tonight. It's 10:00pm, and I am alone, my sister being out.
I feel scared, invaded, like you never know what might happen, like terrorists could storm my street, or anything down to an arson or burglary attack on my house...
Now this is the normal state of the world. It is significant that it takes a tragedy of such magnitude to bring us to our senses.
There must be a large number of people out there, not only bereaved, but soooo uncertain of what the future holds. I feel, as I'm sure we all do, for everyone in the US tonight/today... Certainly those who have cited sleeplessness are not the only ones who will suffer with it.
From all perils and dangers of this night/day, Good Lord, deliver us.
It is tempting to spend all your time listening to news broadcasts and talking to people about what happened. I can work myself up into quite a state that way. Obviously this is not constructive, and I think that in a crisis people should make a special effort to behave constructively.
Moo
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Osama bin Laden is not the only person who has the resources available to do this. The Medellin cartel also has the resources to do something like this
What resources do you need? Four guys to fly a plane? There are no resources necessary. This could have been anyone.
Everyone is saying there will be war. There won't. The US cannot wage war on a person, or a group. A war can only be waged on a state. There will most likely be strong retaliation against Afghanistan and Pakistan, but the real enemy is an ide, an Ideal. It's in the minds and the hearts and souls of the terrorists - enough that they killed themselves for it. No matter how hard the US strikes, and no matter who they strike, it will never be able to crush this idea, and they will never win.
[edited UBB code]
[ 12 September 2001: Message edited by: tomb ]
Be realistic. A terrorist group is not something you can wage war against. It's not structured or anything like that.
Love
Angel
I am sorry that certain people on this thread seem willing to accept these atrocities, or have a fatalistic "there's nothing we can do" attitude. Thankfully most US citizens and many other world citizens and governments are willing to do whatever is within their abilities to wipe out evil wherever we find it.
This however is not the same as justice.
The US is understandably very angry now. This is not the best frame of mind to be in when thinking about taking rational, considered, just and proportionate action.
I hope and pray we will not see escalations which could have hugely worse effects worldwide than yesterday's appalling atrocities in the Northern part of the American continent.
Terrorism of this kind is quite different from warfare. Warfare is carried out under the command of the leaders of a state, and thus retaliation against that state can - to some extent - be justified. Terrorism is carried out by individuals or groups with no clear authority structure and no clear geographic boundaries, so retaliation using weapons of mass destruction is even more inappropriate. Since no state is directly responsible for yesterday's events, there is no state for USA to declare war against.
May God have mercy on us all.
Pt
quote:
Originally posted by CharlottePlatz:
...
Its only natural that we should want to retaliate, an eye for an eye and all that.
...
Remember Jesus quoted the "eye for an eye" principle but taught a higher principle; one which is very hard and which we can only aspire to and hope for.
You need the resources to train pilots to pull of such a stunt. Clearly you don't know your ass from a cockpit, otherwise you'd know that it is pretty damn difficult to steer a plane hundreds of miles into a relatively not large target. You have to have the funds in place to train them. You have to have the network in place to get them and their weapons on board in such a planned event.
And truth be told, I could not care less about removing hatred from these monsters' hearts. They are welcome to hate from now until the time we send ten thousand tons of ordnance up their collective ass.
Sorry but this is what I think.
Fee
It's not that I wouldn't dearly like to see someone punished, or that I don't think it's incredibly important to stop them from doing it again, but the world needs to stop and think before it decides what to do.
If Bin Laden is responsible, then Bush has made it pretty clear that there will be major trouble for Afghanistan if they don't hand him over. Much as I hate what the Taliban has done/is doing, I still realise that Afghanistan is a poor country, gripped with civil war. US military reprisals against them could have appalling long term consequences in terms of civillian lives. More killing of innocents is not a good solution to the problem. I don't know what the right solution is. I just know that we cannot stoop to their level.
I cannot love my enemies, in this situation. But I can know who my enemies are. Not the people of any developing world country - that's for sure.
I don't know what the answer is. It hurts even to think about it. I just don't know.
Rachel.
Though I would gladly publicly flog the people who celebrate something like this, I'm not after Palestinian or any other innocent blood. The guilty, though...
The people behind this, and the government that supports them, are our enemies. Not just enemies of America, but the UK and other NATO countries as well (remember NATO?). Additionally, they are enemies of all our Pacific and South America allies with whom we have a treaty. Militarily speaking, the United States cannot be on any higher level of alert. We are currently in an unofficial state of war.
It will not be conventional war by any stretch of the imagination. But the US will, either covertly or overtly, pound the shit out of whoever is responsible for this, and treat those who harbor these terrorists exactly the same. Because, in the end, they are.
quote:
Originally posted by rachel_o:
But I can know who my enemies are. Not the people of any developing world country - that's for sure.
I'm afraid it's looking more and more like that's exactly who the enemies are I'm afraid. News is coming in about the identity of some of the hijackers and they all seem to be connected with bin Ladin (though he himself denies personal involvement). The scale of this attack is an act of war and the Afghan government will have to realise that if they continue to shelter this "*@+¤ they may effectively be putting themselves in a position of being at war with the West.
If it isn't Bin Laden behind this, then it's most likely somone in another poverty-stricken nation. If it's someone in a rich nation, then it doesn't actually make a lot of difference. Military retaliation means innocent people will die.
After the Pan Am plane exploded over Lockerbie, killing everyone on board, and many, many on the ground it took YEARS of negotiations, sanctions, etc etc to extradite those presumed responsible. But those poeple were brought, in the end to a court of law.
The non-military methods may not be quick, they may not satisfy our thirst for revenge, but we should pray that they will be used and be effective. The alternatives are - I'm convinced - worse.
All the best,
Rachel.
I can see where you're coming from. But the consequences of war are enormous, far bigger than the consequences of this truly dreadful, horrific, disgusting act. The US going to war puts the world in danger.
It may be that war is the way it has to be, but I hope the people who make the decisions think and pray long and hard first.
Rachel.
Otherwise, we will be facing these scenes again, within our own borders, or maybe yours.
quote:
And truth be told, I could not care less about removing hatred from these monsters' hearts. They are welcome to hate from now until the time we send ten thousand tons of ordnance up their collective ass.
Erin, anyone unfamiliar with your florid expressions of anger is going to see this as reckless. By using the faceless phrase "these monsters" and picking as your appropriate response "ten thousand tons of ordnance" it is understandable to me that people would fill in the blanks to translate "these monsters" to mean thousands of people who would be killed in a military strike. If you just meant the few dozens or hundreds of people directly responsible for the attack, people would probably have expected you to say "publicly hanged in downtown New York City, where the families of the victims would have a decent chance to spit on them."
Also, in saying that you don't care about removing hatred from the faceless, unnamed monsters' hearts that you are not particular about who exactly gets hurt by your 10,000 tons of ordinance.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt, though, and assume that you meant that even if it was just a crack team of 10 people who did this, your vote would be to send 10,000 tons of ordnance up their collective asses, or 1,000 tons per ass. I know you to be a fair person and this may well be fair under the circumstances. 
"We will be patient"
However much his citizens may be baying for blood, wanting the big guns out, demanding precipitate action, I hope he will be patient and measured in his response, and gain international consensus.
Incidentally many have said this is a war of democracy against terrorism. It is not, it must be those who believe in the rule of law (whether or not democratic, and perhaps including dictatorships) against terrorism.
It is also important that we do not see this as a war against Islam. It is a war against fundamentalist terrorism, and those of us who claim to be christians must be aware of the history of terrorist acts by christians against Muslims, particularly in the crusades. Fundamentalisms of all sorts can lead to atrocities, and liberals of all sorts must seek for reasonable, measured behaviour. If our emotions tend to lead us into unchristian behaviour, we should transcend, sanctify or sublimate those instincts.
Pt
However time doesn't heal. Hatred will grow unless identified and dealt with.
I'm scared too even though I live in London about what is going to happen next (Working in London during the height of the IRA's bombing didn't do too much for my sense of security).
Last week a school was bombed in Northern Ireland and that makes me sick.
Justice where is it. We believe in it so much but when needed it cruelly lets us down.
So we take an eye but that only blinds others but doesn't really make us feel better and the hurt and emptiness just does not go away.
Sorry for ranting ship mates.
These people chose planes with the largest fuel load. They picked targets for high body counts. They took the time to plan and train. They were aided and abetted by country(s) and government(s). This is not a crime but an act of war.
And we will respond in kind.
Willy
Willy
You cannot have a new Cold war with terrorists and the governments that shelter, and foster them. We have tried sanctions, political negotiations and concessions. It hasn't worked.
Yesterdays events mark the begining of a new world war, it will not be fought as the World Wars of the 20th century were fought, neither will it be a war of apocolypse and nuclear warheads, but it will be a war.
If nothing is done then we all live in fear that the same things will happen again and agian. If we institute a pseudo police state and live in fear for 20 years the threat will still not go away.
Afghanistan will likely be one of the first countries to be effected, but the War will be fought for over 10 years, and to win the West must wipe out the forces arrayed against it.
To think that we can go back to our homes and Jobs with nothing changed is extremely shortsighted. I hate war, but this war already exists and has been escalated to a point that it must be clearly fought and won. It's not going away folks.
We have to face it. We are at a State of War.
i can't take that in.
what are we going to do?
See you all in a few days.
Love,
Renee
There is nothing to be done that would match that. But hell knows, I do not want to be around when God calls 'em all to judgement!
Oh dear, now I sound all fundamentalist and whatnot - which is not my intention!
A (I think RAF) plane just flew low overhead; it was very loud. My first thought was that they were doing it to London now. I don't want the world to be such that that is a legitimate fear. Neither do I want WWIII. The trick is to make sure of the former without precipiating the latter. I'm praying very very hard for all the decision-makers in this situation.
I've tried several times to compose a post for this board, but I can't find the words. Although the idea of war horrifies me, issuing an open invitation to anyone with a grudge (real of percieved) to attack with impunity is worse. And I don't for one moment think that the people behind these attacks were the ones who boarded the planes.
However, once it has been determined who is responsible, we act. Decisively and without prejudice. These are the realities, people. War is ugly and brutal and necessary. Look at what happened here yesterday:
The consequences of ten years of retaliation via ass-kissing is what we're looking at. No more. No more.
Do you ever wonder why no one screws with the Russians? It is a far cry from ideological solidarity, believe me. Back when Western citizens were being kidnapped in the Middle East, they attempted to terrorize the Russians in the same way. The only thing is, the Russians fought back. For every Russian citizen who disappeared, a known terrorist disappeared. For a little while, though. Soon enough they sent him back, in pieces, bit by bloody bit.
On a gut level I find that appalling, though theoretically I know that death is death and the means don't make that much difference. But that is how Zero Tolerance is carried out. You don't react to attacks, you go on the offensive. And people will die, no doubt some of them innocent. I keep thinking of the people on the plane that crashed in PA. They are the heroes here – they knew they would not survive, but they were prepared to die in order to save others' lives.
Our planes are grounded, our military on wartime alert. Find the bastards behind this and give them a dose of wartime justice. Determine which governments supported them and make them an international pariah. The only thing that stopped Libya's overt sponsorship of terrorism was freezing their international assets. Hit them where they feel it the most – the wallet. It's the only thing that works.
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
We simply do not know.
The clues are coming in.
I was referring to the few hours after the news broke, I was making an observation, I was contrasting most people's behaviour with Riley's.
I then realised that I could be taken as being disapproving of any lightening of the mood, but had difficulty expressing it. I'm sorry that it came out the way it did.
there'a a swat team and bomb squad at the Westin hotel here in Copley Square. They're arresting a suspect. Please pray that there will be no more violence on either side in this process it is not far from where I am typing this.
Ann - thanks 
And sorry my post was snappy.
Even if they did, he has networks and contacts all over the world, who knows where.
Don't know if it's more tragic or ironic to think that bin Laden and friends were once allies of the west and received US training. Makes you weep at the whole mess of it all.
Have just been reading about the phone calls made from the planes before they crashed. So much sorrow and pain.
Under military threat, an immediate assessment needs to be made of the source of the military attack, followed by 100% elimination of its military source. Our planes are still grounded. Our citizens do not know if there are still 10 or 100 or more fanatics with plastic knives waiting to reboard planes and continue this threat. I'm supposed to fly from Dulles to Austin, Texas next Wednesday. Am I going to end up a grease spot on the Capitol building?
It would have been justified to me if yesterday, our military had come to the same conclusion as Orrin Hatch and said, "The head is most likely bin Laden, his most likely location is (x,y) in Afghanistan. I say we hit it, and promise more appropriate military, politcal, and legal action until the threat to our country is eliminated. That ought to slow them up a bit."
This kind of response is a humane (and arguably "Christian") defense of innocent lives against military threat, and is supportable in my view even though it runs the risk of hurting or killing the wrong people. That is an inherent tragedy once military action is started. Offering your entire country up for slaughter and the risk of slaughter is neither following the example of Christ, who offered only himself, nor learning from history as you so correctly pointed out.
We have an enemy too. All of us. Terrorism is not unique to the US--how many car bombs have gone off in London and killed people? How much terrorist violence occurs all over the world? Terrorism is the Enemy, and it has many faces and lives in many countries.
Americans aren't raving lunatics who just want to bomb Afghanistan and its hungry, land-mine lamed population back into the Stone Age. We want the world to recognize that terrorism is warfare. It's directed at all of us, each an every one of us, whether we're in London, Sydney, Perth, Edinburgh, New York, Washington or Los Angeles.
I have a sister in Nebraska who was in tears last night, crying "Is it over? Is it over? Will they come here next?" I have a sister and niece in Washington DC, asking the same questions.
Thank you, Edward, for your post affirming that we are a world at war. It makes me feel that we are not standing alone at this time. And thank you, Erin, for straightening out the misunderstandings.
And thanks for every person on the Ship who prays for us all.
quote:
Ptarmigan said:
Since no state is directly responsible for yesterday's events, there is no state for USA to declare war against.
Ah, so you KNOW who is responsible? Have you told the FBI? Or were you just shooting off your mouth?
We don't yet know if any state is directly responsible for the monstrosities of 9/11/2001, so your statement was a little -um- misdirected?
quote:
Erin said:
(remember NATO?).
Ah, those folks that (quite illegally) bombed innocent civilians in Serbia in 1999? Yes, I think I remember them. I don't expect too much from them in the way of justice, though -- not until William Jefferson Clinton is brought before the Hague for war crimes.
quote:
Calvin said:
I agree with fee, judgement is needed but it should be up to God.
If you were in charge during 1939, we'd all be speaking German with a Nazi accent.
-----
As for the Pearl Harbor comparison -- this is far, far worse than Pearl Harbor. First of all, the vast majority of people killed in Pearl Harbor were military, and military in a dangerous ocean during a known war. And the number is in the low thousands.
The attacks of 9/11/2001 were primiarily (in terms of lives lost) against civilians, and the deaths promise to be well over 10,000. 45,000 people work every day in the WTC, and many more thousands come and go, delivering stuff, having away meetings, and so forth. The death toll could still be as high as 40,000 or more.
I was glad President Bush had the guts to use the word "evil." So many of the news reports were trying so hard to be non-judgmental it was vomitous (although somebody on NPR did use the word "enormity" -- incorrectly, of course). Using a plane full of innocent people as a bomb is EVIL. The people who would plot to carry out such an attack are EVIL.
Thanks for listening.
Alex
Poverty. Economic and physical isolation. Real and imagined injustices. Perception of powerlessness. And so forth.
If our only response is to smash the SOBs who masterminded this, or the country/countries that harbored them, then we will probably end up contributing to a greater escalation.
What's next? Biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons? They probably have those--or can get them.
Tom, this attack is completely and utterly unjustifiable. No matter how impoverished you are, how hopeless you feel, to attack tens of thousands of innocent people is beyond even criminally insane. It is pure, abject evil.
Still Falls the Rain
(The raids, 1940: night and dawn)
Still falls the Rain--
Dark as the world of man, black as our loss--
Blind as the nineteen hundred and forty nails upon the Cross
Still falls the Rain
With a sound like the pulse of the heart that is changed to the hammer beat
In the Potter's Field, and the sound of the impious feet
On the Tomb:
Still falls the Rain
In the Field of Blood where the small hopes breed and the human brain
Nurtures its greed, that worm with the brow of Cain
Still falls the Rain
At the feet of the Starved Man hung upon the Cross
Christ that each day, each night, nails there, have mercy on us--
On Dives and on Lazarus:
Under the Rain the sore and gold are as one.
Still falls the Rain--
Still falls the Blood from the Starved Man's wounded Side
He bears in His Heart all wounds,--those of the light that died,
The last faint spark
In the self-murdered heart, the wounds of the sad uncomprehending dark,
The wounds of the baited bear,--
The blind and weeping bear whom the keepers beat
On his helpless flesh...the tears of the hunted hare.
Still falls the Rain--
Then--"O Ile leape up to my God! Who pulles me doune?--
See, see where Christ's blood streames in the firmament."
It flows from the Brow we nailed upon the tree
Deep to the dying, to the thirsting heart
That holds the fires of the world,--dark-smirched with pain
As Caesar's laurel crown.
Then sounds the voice of One, who, like the heart of man,
Was once a child who among beasts has lain--
"Still do I love, still shed my innocent light, my Blood, for thee."
especially the line about dives and lazerous.
We saw yesterday what can happen when people get so full of hate that they do horrific things. It has made me utterly convinced that the only thing that can possibly defeat such hate is love - if that hate is met only with more hate then things will only get worse. Love here doesn't mean turn-the-other-cheek-and-don't-defend-ourselves: it means taking part in building a world where people don't do the things against which we need to defend.
The first concerns some students at Pace University, which is close to the World Trade Centers. They spoke to the people who had escaped from the buildings, and invited them into their rooms to use their computers to send e-mail. That way their friends and relatives knew immediately that they were all right.
The other concerns shoe-store owners who stood in front of their stores giving away sneakers to anyone who had no shoes.
When we've seen such demonstrations of evil, it's really nice to be reminded how good and decent many people are.
Moo
ny public libraries will be closing at 5 (as opposed to 6 or later) for the rest of this week but hopefully back to regular schedules after that.
and my husband just volunteered to be on-call to help out with caring for the search and rescue dogs down at the site.
ABCNEWS sources identify another hijacker as Satan Suqami
How's that for an appropriate name. Overt or what?
Let's just keep praying. There's right and wrong in all our thoughts, and we simply don't know what's for the best. We need to pray for the guys making the decisions.
Still praying for all you US folk... And others with loved ones over there.
Not an act of war?
~Beth
The argument carries even more force when it is on the scale of yesterday's tragedy, involving probably tens of thousands of deaths perpetrated by an unknown number of well-funded, well-coordinated people. While "War" is too broad a term, "terrorist attack" is far too mild. That is why I used the word "military." It is true that when a Catholic blows up a Protestant church in Ireland, it only escalates and perpetuates violence if a Protestant family member of the victim blows up a Catholic church in retaliation. But if airliners are hijacked and crashed into the Vatican and St. Pat's in New York within minutes of each other and the only way to halt it for the moment is to shut down every airport in the world, this is not the time to call an ecumenical council on Catholic/Protestant strife to ease terrorist tensions.
If we knew that the only weapon yesterday's terrorists have at their disposal are our commercial airliners, we could assume that we have put them out of business and take a "go slow" response while we live without any commercial air traffic for the months it would take to find, try, and punish the people in question via normal legal means. But they could well have enough money and organization to have other weapons of mass destruction at their disposal.
My main point is not to argue the specific action that is needed. It is simply to argue that there needs to be recognition that this is something bigger than what we have come to call a "terrorist attack" while also recognizing that it is not a full scale declaration of a state of war. It is probably something new, that the world has never seen: a privately-declared war. A Hitler no longer needs a decade to build a military machine capable of blizting a continent: it appears that a billionaire can do it by writing out a few checks.
So, if I, a fairly reasonable and rational human being could feel such anger towards a complete stranger on a bus - I wonder what is happening tonight in our towns and cities, amongst people who enjoy fighting and have 'bones to pick' with ethnic minorities. I think we need to pray for all our countries.
Saying I've forfeited the debate seems quite cowardly. Is that inflammatory?
Someone doesn't like being disagreed with.
Alex
Alex
---
In other news, of course downtown boston is safe and I appear to be the only person who thought otherwise.
while the usa can't declare war on a person/group per se, if a country is shielding them, then it can be assumed that the country is in agreement with them about their actions, and i'm guessing war could be declared on them.
some one asked if outside usa help was coming in - the raf (british airforce) have sent help in to do search and rescue, and the other squadrons are on delta alert (level below actual war). my friend's son is in the raf, and we spoke to him earlier. from his evasive responses etc, it is certain that he knows a lot more than he is telling. all he did say about the possibility of war is that he would phone if they have to go. and not to worry, he would be safe. *shrug* trying not to read anything into it - i know lee, and i know his mates, and i don't want them to die.
i'm praying for people who have lost friends and relatives. and i'm praying for bush and his advisers, that they can figure out what the right and godly thing to do is, that they would listen to god on this one....
viki
Alex
Retaliation (as opposed to prevention) is a somewhat primitive instinct, and - in my understanding of christianity - not an acceptable motive. (Can anyone tell us how Jews handle the "eye for an eye" principle, since they do not have Jesus' turning this on its head in the NT?)
Christian "just war" theory requires (amongst other things) the minimum force necessary. In the case of the gunman in the public square, for instance, a shot to disable rather than to kill would be more acceptable.
If when people are using the word "war" they mean simply a renewed energy in the ongoing international efforts to eradicate terrorism, targetting the individuals and cells, then I'm all for it of course, but I think war is the wrong word for it.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I wasn't comparing anybody to the Nazi's, so Godwin's law doesn't apply.Alex
Reread the law, hon, you only have to INVOKE the Nazis. I'll even quote it here:
quote:
As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
Telling a pacifist who doesn't want to judge that they would have been in essence a Nazi collaborator is just a cheap shot.
quote:
Retaliation (as opposed to prevention) is a somewhat primitive instinct, and - in my understanding of christianity - not an acceptable motive. (Can anyone tell us how Jews handle the "eye for an eye" principle, since they do not have Jesus' turning this on its head in the NT?)Christian "just war" theory requires (amongst other things) the minimum force necessary. In the case of the gunman in the public square, for instance, a shot to disable rather than to kill would be more acceptable.
Pssssst... perhaps you missed this, but the US government is officially secular. It is not beholden to any religion's principles.
Any pacifist risks being called an appeaser. If they don't like that, maybe they shouldn't be pacifists. Because there is no way to have unilateral pacifism without appeasement.
Somebody said that all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. If this is what pacifists would have us do (other than wag our fingers vigorously), then they are part of the problem and not the solution.
Allied involvement in WW2 saved millions of lives -- if only of Jews and Gypsies (and other "unwanted" types) who missed a date with the ovens. Tell THEM that pacifism always and everywhere the thing to do.
Do I have a problem with absolutist pacifism? You bet. Will I invoke the memory of WW2? You bet.
And Godwin can stick his law up his fat ass.
Saying that any and all comparisons to WW2 are always and everywhere off limits, as Godwin's law does (by ridicule), is (1) an unwarranted attack on the free dissemination of ideas, and (2) stupid.
Alex
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
Pssssst... perhaps you missed this, but the US government is officially secular. It is not beholden to any religion's principles.
The question I'm addressing is what the US should do, and what I, as a christian, hope it will do.
Bush uses God talk when it suits him, and I'm sure he means the crhistian God. The US sing "God Bless America". US dollars say "In God we trust". Secular in US seems mystifying to me as an Englishman. Is there an explanation?
Pt
quote:
Originally posted by ptarmigan:
If the reason for "war" is to prevent this happening again, (rather than to relieve people's justifiable feelings of anger), then wouldn't security improvements be a more humane method than acts of warfare which inevitably kill innocent civilians?
There is also the problem of how much of a police state we should have to live in to protect ourselves from somebody else's insanity. The idea of permanent card-carrying lockdown doesn't strike me as humane.
quote:
Originally posted by ptarmigan:
The question I'm addressing is what the US should do, and what I, as a christian, hope it will do.Bush uses God talk when it suits him, and I'm sure he means the crhistian God. The US sing "God Bless America". US dollars say "In God we trust". Secular in US seems mystifying to me as an Englishman. Is there an explanation?
Pt
Yes. It's called the First Amendment. Type that into the search box to your left and do a little research.
After the attack on the Pentagon my university was closed. I ended up walking back into the city to avoid traffic and any possible roadblocks. Indeed, all inbound routes were blocked and the government and most retail establishments closed throughout the day. It was eery walking across Key Bridge and watching the plumes of grey and black smoke rise from the buring Pentagon. Military helicopters flew low over the Potomac. Normally bustling Georgetown was quiet -- there was no traffic in the streets but many people walking, singly or in small groups, towards their homes. People were gathering together and through the open windows one could hear the unmistakable drone of newsreaders as countless residents listened intently to the news bulletins.
Phone lines into and out of DC were disrupted for some hours in the morning and early afternoon, and people (including me) were walking to check in with neighbours and friends, and to sit in company and take in the grotesque and awesome news of the these tragedies.
Churches held prayer services for the nation, requiem masses and eucharists. 4000 people thronged the National Cathedral. Fighter planes and attack helicopters regularly flew low over the city.
Today many schools and universities remain closed, but workers returned the Pentagon and the fires have finally been extinguished there. Casualty estimates have been re-evaluated and (thankfully) diminished from a high estimate of over 800 to nearer 100 expected dead.
The city is calm, but still surreal scenes greet the pedestrian. Policemen and soldiers are stationed throughout the city. Armed patrols guard embassies and significant federal buidlings. Policeman stand at major intersections and round-a-bouts.
And the work of prayer continues. Requiems are being said today, as well as prayers of repentence, thanks for lives saved, and fervent supplications for peace.
This is the work we are called to do.
HT
quote:
Minutes before the giant airliner smashed into a field southeast of Pittsburgh, passenger Jeremy Glick used a cell phone to call his wife at home in New Jersey and told her that he and several other people on board had come up with a plan to resist the terrorists who had hijacked the plane, according to Glick's brother-in-law, Douglas B. Hurwitt...Anticipating his own death, Glick, who celebrated his 31st birthday on Sept. 3, told his wife, Lyzbeth, that he hoped she would have a good life and would take care of their three-month old baby girl, Hurwitt said.
[ 13 September 2001: Message edited by: Erin ]
I agree that whoever was behind these atrocities has to be stopped. I just wish there was another way. I can't think of any useful alternative. It's terrifying.
Do you guys remeber during the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait a shelter containing lots of civilians - mostly old or very young - was hit by a NATO bomb. Nato had been informed that the place was an intelligence headquarters. War is complicated and unpredictable and can never be expected to kill the "right" people.
But what else is there?
Lord have mercy.
<Trying not to cry.>
Rachel.
Erin, every time I think of that call, I start sobbing. Along with the guy who called his Mom to say he loved her and that he was sure they were all going to die, but they were going to try to do something about it.
I am with those who think that military action of some kind is going to be necessary (in fact, at the moment, I'm much too mad to be interested in prayer). It is our obligation to do what we can to end the terrorists' grip on the world. This is the new "war" for our generation, and it's been going 100-0 in favor of the terrorists for a long time. I'm not sure what will be called for, but it is critical that we not let countries like Afghanistan and Syria harbor these guys and wink at them while claiming their innocence to the world. I know there are innocent people there, but there are innpcent people everywhere. We cannot allow ourselves by fear of hurting anyone to fail to respond. We've done the ineffective for far too long.
Oh, goody. The Senate just passed a resolution condemning the attack 100 to nothing. There's a shock! Do you think they had to twist many arms for unanimity?
[edited to add forgotten content]
[ 13 September 2001: Message edited by: Laura ]
To me, it is every terrible story connected with this that is so hard to bear. The buildings going down was unbelievable, but it is the individual tragedies that are incredibly gut-wrenching.
You are scum and a traitor. I hope they find you and throw your sorry ass into Leavenworth for the rest of your life. Which, given that that's a military prison, will be mercifully short.
As to those of you out there who are trying to turn this into some partisan issue (whichever side of the insane asylum you reside in), here's another very bad word followed by a second person pronoun.
And equally bad words for the ghouls who are trying to sell debris from the disaster on eBay. Thank goodness eBay is pulling this stuff off the auction block.
But there are some kudos to hand out, too --
To the guys in the ironworkers union in NY, members of which built the WTC, who are dismantling the debris by hand in case people are still alive underneath.
To the postal service people, who are just putting everything on trucks since the planes are all grounded.
To the blood donors. I haven't been able to get through to the Red Cross yet since the lines are all jammed. A friend of mine got through, and was told to wait a couple of days -- they have all the blood they can deal with for the moment, but they'll need more soon.
To the people like Edward James Olmos and LA Episcopal Bishop Suffragan Chet Talton and Arab Jews here (I didn't know we had Arab Jews!) who went to Islamic centers and urged others not to persecute Arab Americans. Maybe we've actually learned something since the internment of Japanese Americans in WW2 and the victimization of Arab Americans after the OK City bombing.
And of course there are many more.
God help us all.
RE God talk in the US: Part if is that while while the government is officially secular, the country and our politics have long been influenced by Christians and Christianity and many, if not most, in the US have no problem with such influences as long as they are kept general (could be read "shallow"), don't mention differences in doctrine but do make vague appeals to "higher power" and refer to individuals' right to see (or cast) 'God' in what ever way the individual sees fit.
I think the coins, et cet. are a semi-sacred relic of times past when Christians so dominated US society and government that few if any objected to such slogans.
I think Bush is nominally Christian with perhaps a small amount of faith. US Attorney John Ashcroft is quite Christian, of some-what old fashioned bent.
An interesting editorial on what lies ahead for Bush: Philly Inquirer editorial
And finally, if anyone in NY knows of the Carlton Hotel in Manhattan (I'm sorry, I don't have the address) - I am looking for my friend Daphne Kaplan. She works there and I have not heard from her.
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
...
As to those of you out there who are trying to turn this into some partisan issue (whichever side of the insane asylum you reside in), here's another very bad word followed by a second person pronoun.
Partisan? How can we not be? Do you think you aren't?
I suppose it would be better if we could all strive to provide balanced judgement and detached objective impartiality and maybe some theological insight in this discussion. I doubt if any of us has succeeded as fully as we might. Some come closer than others.
Partisan Ptarmigan
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
The people behind this, and the government that supports them, are our enemies. Not just enemies of America, but the UK and other NATO countries as well (remember NATO?).
NATO agrees with you. We (NATO, that is) declared Article 5 of the NATO treaty: an attack on one member state is an attack on all.
If you live in a NATO country, your nation is now (as yet unofficially) at war. I'm not sure what to make of that.
quote:
Originally posted by ptarmigan:
Partisan? How can we not be? Do you think you aren't?
What the hell are you talking about? I was referring to Americans who are using this as an excuse to bash Clinton or Bush. Since when are you an American?
quote:
Originally posted by Erin:
What the hell are you talking about? I was referring to Americans who are using this as an excuse to bash Clinton or Bush. Since when are you an American?
Thanks for explanation Nightlamp.
I hope we're not "2 nations divided by a common language" as I love many aspects of the USA, and our countries may need to co-operate more closely in the future.
In UK English, "partisan" means biassed. It is almost exactly the opposite of "impartial". (It can also mean "a kind of halberd" according to my dictionary.)
Erin - you may have noticed that I took the opportunity yesterday to praise your president, even though I disagree with his political stance on many issues. I believe he was statesmanlike and measured in an important way at a vitally important time for the future of life on this planet. You may even have noticed this involved a little back-pedalling from my anti-Bush stance on an earlier thread.
At times like this it is good to support and pray for those who bear a great weight of responsibility. So I agree with your point, which I misunderstood, that partisanship - in the sense you meant it - is not a good thing at the moment.
Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Pt
P.S. As it happens I am not an American. I found out a little more about one of the more baffling aspects of US culture by following your lead towards the First Amendment of your constitution. Thanks.
Please pray for the repose of the soul of Michael Andrew Bane. Pray also for his father, Donald Bane, a priest of this diocese, and the rest of his family, particularly his wife (whose name I don't know).
Chris
the huge smoke plume over the site has abated, instead theres a haze that covers manhatten generally, and today reached as far as flushing, so that when i got off one bus to switch to another, i could smell it.
i gave blood last night. they were still so crowded that people were being sent away til later.
all schools are delaying their opening for 2 hours, don't quite know what the rational for that is, but thats what they're doing.
Bene
My prayers are also with all those who have to cope with the consequences of this tragedy now and in the future.
Pt
erin - whilst usa is officially secular, nato clauses talk about just war, and the use of the minimum force required to achieve the aims etc. i'm thinking this means that nato/usa/europe cannot and will not allow the enemy (when they figure out exactly who that is) to be nuked out of existence...
viki
On the political front, I was very struck By Sen. Joseph Biden's candid revelation that we were "very close" to being able to show "overwhelming evidence" to NATO exactly where the threat is coming from and that while we would be "in a position to act independently very soon" we might "wait in order to act jointly with NATO." He said that Colin Powell getting swift NATO cooperation was "a stroke of genius that opens up real possibilities to do something really dramatic and really helpful to the whole world."
It seems not out of the realm of possibility that there will be something like a military strike on Afghanistan, a ground invasion, and extended military occupation of the country and possibly others. If the military occupation were something like the US occupation of Japan after WWII, where the countries involved are disarmed, rebuilt, and democratized, I would think it an appropriate response using minimum force to achieve a long term elimination of the military threats coming from the area. I sense overwhelming sentiment in this country for action on this kind of a scale, and I cannot disagree with it.
Now that I am somewhat more calm about all of this, a few reflections.
First and foremost, thanks to all of you from other countries who have expressed your shock and horror at what has happened to us. There are many, many times when the citizens of the United States feel hopelessly and forever alone against an overwhelming tide of worldwide opinion. I am ashamed to admit that when the events began unfolding I was wondering how many other countries would seize this as an opportunity to gloat over our past failures. The reaction of the world was far more heartening than I could have dreamed.
Second, you will see two amazingly disparate reactions – our citizens in New York and DC are devastated beyond words as the reality sinks in that those phone calls they've been waiting for will never, ever come. There is precious little room for anything else. The rest of us grieve the loss, but we have room for the cold and unwavering fury that will not abate until those responsible for this are brought to justice. They murdered our brothers and sisters and they will pay for it with their own lives. It is abhorrent that their cowardice will undoubtedly lead to the further loss of innocent life, as they hide behind civilians and governments protect them, but that blood will be on their heads as well.
To those responsible:
I don't know what you hoped to accomplish. Make us hurt? You did that, we are hurting. Make us change our policies? Without a doubt. Unfortunately for you, that change will result in your destruction. Make us afraid? You failed, and failed miserably. Split us along social, racial and political lines? Not a chance in hell. All of those lines were obliterated in the explosions that rocked New York, Washington and Pennsylvania. It wasn't the rich who died. It wasn't the Republican or the Christian or the white. It was the American, end of story. You hit one of us, you hit all of us. It has been fifty years since the world has seen a truly United States. God help you now. No one on this planet can.
My dad was a firefighter until he retired about 10 years ago. Every day he went to work, my mom and I knew he might not come back. We would get Union mags from the firefighter's union, and the back page was always a requiem for firefighters who fell in the line of duty. New York always topped the list.
Firefighters are a unique breed; but their families are also different from other families in certain ways (which I imagine they share with the families of police officers and others who have a higher than average chance of dying in the line of duty): they live with the ever-present fear for the lives of their loved ones who work in dangerous duty. Every time Dad went into a burning building, it might have collapsed on him, he could have died from smoke inhalation, any number of things could have taken him from us. When he finally retired, my mom, my sister and I all breathed a collective sigh of relief: a sigh which had been pending for decades.
There were also moments of poignancy in his career as a firefighter. He rescued some kids in a trapped elevator once, and also he had a man die in his arms once. He was (and is) a strange contradiction of toughness and tenderness. I remember him crying when his last dog died. This from a man who had carried people from burning buildings, with hardly any thought of his own safety. Thank God he made it through alive, and is enjoying the fruit of his life's labors.
I feel so bad for the families of everyone who lost loved ones in these horrible, horrible attacks. But I really feel like I understand --from the inside-- a little more of the sadness of the families of the emergency workers. May they find strength and solace and hope in the days to come.
Alex
Plus, none of us can help but feel something deeply when it "hits this close to home." (There is no comparison, of course, but, years ago, my father, a grocer, was a victim of armed robbery, which he survived. When he died years later of a heart ailment, though I was middle-aged, I realised how glad I was that he died that way rather than from an act of violence or disaster.) One of the hardest things, I think, when war or disaster threatens is that we cannot really talk about our own lives and feelings. (Even I would not have the courage to bitch and moan in Hell today... unless it was about the horrifying incidents and possible war.) I know this is Hell, but I want to thank you, mousethief, for the courage to speak of the personal feelings.
I am too young to remember the second World War, but I would imagine that one of the hardest things everyone had to deal with was that they had to act as if the war effort was all that mattered. It must have been difficult even to utter a prayer of petition for one's other needs. How can one care about this-or-that, when thousands are dying?
But it is honest. Years ago, when I was in a philosophy class, the group discussed a "what if" scenario, where all were on a sinking ship and there were not enough life boats. Who gets the spot? ... None of us wanted to admit it, but the response we dared not voice was "I do!"
That is another difficult part of war and catastrophe. We ache for everyone killed, for their families, for what may be ahead. Yet there is a part of us that dares not say "I'm so glad it wasn't I."
Sorry for the rambling - I think we all are in a bit of shock and fear - and I'm so glad that mousethief was so open.
In times of crisis it helps us to cope if we can worry about a few people rather than the unimaginable numbers.
bb
At the same time, let me assure you that participants on this board are not ignoring you; to the contrary they are hanging on every word. Your sudden switch to a rhetorical indictment of people who are not participants on this board is what caused the confusion--not people ignoring you. How could we ever do that? 
bomb threats. some sickos are calling in false bomb threats. the 42nd st library (the famous one with the lions) was partially evacuated, and the donnell library (another major branch) was totally evacuated. in both cases nothing was found and people are back at work.
why do people do this sort of thing? aren't we all traumatized enough????
Alex
An odd thing came to my attention this morning while listening to the radio--and I am sure to many other listeners. There were several major traffic incidents this morning around the Bay Area--and the traffic reports couldn't say much about them. The traffic helicopters are all grounded along with everything else, leaving the traffic reporters effectively blind. It struck me how dependent we are on things like that.
Police still patrol intersections and military vehicles and soldiers still present an unusual site in Georgetown and elsewhere. One of the striking things to notice is the uniquely American custom of the display of the flag in a sign of support and solidarity. American flags hang from windows, the sides of buses, and are even stuck into flower pots all over the city.
Local news coverage showed rescue workers unfurl a large flag on the Pentagon, very near the blackened void in the side of the buidling. Passersby cheered as the flag unrolled.
In news to be thankful for, the casualty estimates have been adjusted downward dramatically.
HT
Alex
He also says, a bit earlier:
"The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked, and when we destroy 40 million innocent little babies, we make God mad."
This is completely unbeliveable. How can anyone try and twist this tragedy to their own purposes?
quote:
American flags .... are even stuck into flower pots all over the city.
Hey, there's one in our flowerpot!
Memo to self: increase giving to ACLU and don't wait 'till membership comes up for renewal.
Dear God, with "friends" like those, who needs enemies?
Todd, are Falwell and Robertson "fundamentalists" who have engaged in inappropriate behavior based on wrong thinking in making these statements? If not, what is the proper label for this, other than irresponsible ignorance?
Alex
Rachel.
Sieg
Trust Falwell to find a theology to blame ordinary Americans, blame God and get the terrorist off the hook.
Pass the sick bag.
Been following all the news with much sorrow. we're having a three minute silence tomorrow at work.
I like the stories about the flags. After following the recent threads here on the American flag I feel like I have more of an idea what that means to people.
More power to your flags and your flower pots.
Louise
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
American Civil Liberties Union.
They bring lawsuits on behalf of people in issues of constitutional issues. They are generally hated by conservatives as the type of cases they take are those of minority views. Personally, I think they are needed just for that reason--to protect the rights of people to express unpopular opinons.Sieg
How can Christians object to someone looking after the interests of those with minority views? Jesus held some pretty minority views in his day.
Also, in many parts of the world, Christianity is a minoirty view. Do unto others....etc
Aaargh.
Sorry, I'll shut up now.
Rachel.
Tempted to pull a Betsy Ross and make my own. And stick in my flowerpot, of course.
A few months ago some American employees had their hotel rooms in Rome broken into. All that was stolen were AA uniforms and ID badges.
Moo
As for Russian involvement, we were just told by my wife's brother that President Putin has offered the use of Russian land to American forces.
Fundamentalists? Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson certainly are, and they fit the actual theological definition. But Mr. Falwell's ravings do not mean, ipso facto, that Christian fundamentalism per se necessarily produces this sort of insanity or ignorance. No more than that the demented actions of radical Islamic movements mean that Islam necessarily produces such horrors.
Falwell may be one of the most visible fundamentalist Christians, but he certainly isn't the sum total of Christian fundamentalism.
--Todd
quote:
Originally posted by Todd:
What Jim suggests about occupying and democratizing may indeed be what is needed. But that assumes any groups of people in whatever country involved who are interested in creating a democratic society, as the Japanese were after WWII.
The other problem with talking about American activity in Japan after WWII in positive terms, is that this ignores what was done to Japan by the Allies during/at the end of WWII. Perhaps dropping two atom bombs on major cities isn't perhaps the best way to set them on the road to democracy.
All the best,
Rachel.
RE: Jerry Falwell et al, our hoarse-voiced evangelist was back outside my subway station today. He's often there reading from the Bible for the evening commuters. His choice of scripture today? The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.
---
Actually the idea about post-WWII type occupation got me optimistic for Afghanistan. I've heard that our occupation of Japan gave that country its great economic boom: because they couldn't waste their budget on military spending, they pumped it into better things.
Unfortunately this is ludicrously wishful thinking.
*sigh*
i just sewed a flag on my backpack, btw. this is highly atypical behavior for me.
I expect that we'll be hearing more about non-American deaths in coming days. It seems that this act of terrorism has touched us all now.
I must admit that I only know the first verse.
I also add my thanks, UK.
I am very proud.
I also attended a memorial service at St Georges Cathedral today. Full title:
'A service of prayer, memorial and thanksgiving
For those who lost their lives, for those who are injured, for those who mourn, and for medical and emergency personnel
United Airlines flight 175
United Airlines flight 93
American Airlines flight 11
American Airlines flight 77
World Trade Centre, Manhattan, NY
The Pentagon, Richmond, Virginia.'
Very low density tat I might add: cassocks, surplices, tippets and academic hoods, so no ulterior motives on my part. And I overcame my dread that it would be an awful liberal abomination, given the theology of many of the Cathedral clergy. I also worried that the Archbishop and Dean would use it as an opportunity to shove interfaith issues down our throats (Yes, I'm so cynical and distrustful that I thought that they might even stoop to that - they didn't), since the Archbishop had invited the Muslim community to the service (none came that I saw). Anyway, I thought: 'Right. I'm probably gunna hate this. But I'm going to honour the dead people and to be in solidarity with the US friends I've met online'.
Actually, it was a beautiful service. The service booklets had a small piece of thyme stapled to the front, and the prayers included the Romans passage 'I am convinced that neither death, nor life etc' (8:38-39) and a prayer of John Donne. Then followed an anthem - 2 bits actually - negro spirituals 'Steal away to Jesus' and 'Nobody knows the trouble I see' from A Child of our Time, by Michael Tippett - sung by the skillful boy choir of St Georges (HT will approve). A Litany followed. The Anthem before the Gospel was Purcell, Hear my prayer; and the Anthem after the Homily was Faure, Pie Jesu. The readings were very fitting, the moving passage from Wisdom 3:1- 'The souls of the righteous are in the hand of God, and no torment will ever touch them' etc; 1Co 15:15; and John 14:1-. These were read by the US Consul, the Premier of WA and the Governor (Queen's rep) of WA respectively.
Hymns were 'Alleluia, Sing to Jesus', 'Guide me O thou great Jehovah' (but they used 'Redeemer', blah), and 'Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord'.
The State Commissioner of Police was present as were a contingent of firefighters, and the leader of the State Opposition. Near the Soldier's Chapel the American and Australian flags were flown, the staves crossed over each other. Uniformed and plain clothes police and plainclothes (diplomatic?) security guards were also stationed around the building.
Not a traditional Requiem, but moving.
MWer signing out,
The Coot.
quote:
Originally posted by Ham'n'Eggs:
For what it's worth, which is very little, the Changing of the Guard has never ever be altered before. For anything.
Every little bit helps. This is the first I heard of this and I want to also extend my thanks.
One other small mercy: if I remember correctly from my last visit, the Observation Deck didn't open until 9 AM. At least fewer tourists were killed or injured.
its raining, torrentially.
i hate to think how this is hampering search and rescue efforts.
yesterday on the wayhome from work my daughter and i counted over 150 american flags.
However shocking it looks on television, the real sight is quite a bit worse. Perhaps the worst thing is the jarring contrast of the smooth, honey-coloured restrained neo-classical facades interrupted by darkened, scorched windows and a gaping, jagged black gash in the middle. I should probvably mention for those unfamiliar with Washington that the major north-south artery, Interstate 395, passes immediately beside the Pentagon. Approaching from the south one sees not only the impact point, but the incongrous scenes of the Washington monuent and the Capitol dome illuminated serenely in the night.
The fires were burning again in the close, humid air, and a haze hung close the ground and along the river.
HT
I watched it on television and found it beautiful and moving. It ended with the British national anthem and the Queen emerging to meet and talk to some Americans in the crowd outside. The area outside was packed with a quiet and respectful crowd.
The eleven o'clock silence has been marked throughout Britain in shopping centres and city squares alike as well as people's homes and offices. Many people in Britain and Ireland have friends and family on the other side of the water and even those who don't are still moved by this.
I hope those of you on the other side of the Atlantic will be able to see something of the St Paul's service on your television news later on.
Those wishing to check US reports may wish to try Fox News. The site has been accessible on Friday, more so than some others (...well, at least until we all flood it), and has regular updates.
Alex
quote:
Originally posted by The Coot:
For those who lost their lives, for those who are injured, for those who mourn, and for medical and emergency personnel
United Airlines flight 175
United Airlines flight 93
American Airlines flight 11
American Airlines flight 77
World Trade Centre, Manhattan, NY
The Pentagon, Richmond, Virginia.'
Under the circumstances this is a very trivial point, but the Pentagon is in Arlington, Virginia, which is a hundred miles north of Richmond.
Moo
The prayers and support of Shipmates and others in the world are palpable and you have no idea how much they are appreciated. Thank you, thank you.
More personal news: one of the guys I sing with was in the Pentagon when it was hit, but he's fine. The dental practice where my wife works was asked for dental charts of two people who were patient there and died in the plane that hit the Pentagon. These two patients were on the plane and apparently they've found some teeth. Life could not be more grisly.
--Todd
Pt
Pt
As for the words, I think only my own national anthem beats them for bad sentiment (the second or third verse of Australians all let Us Rejoice has racist remarks apparently, just as the 1st verse of SSB talks of bombs, and the whole song is of victory in war). But the tune is really catchy. Doh! Now I'll go to bed singing it!
In view of recent events in US, the singalong has been dropped and the concert opened with the national anthems of USA and Britain. Incdentally the conductor of the BBC symphony orchestra now is an American, Leonard Slatken.
Pt
I just wish to add my voice to the many tens of millions worldwide who have expressed their shock, outrage and grief at the barbarity of this act. Others have expressed my thoughts more eloquently already here.
Apologies for a "me-too" post.
Ian
