Thread: Hell: Why not just have a siren go off? "FAT-so, FAT-so, FAT-so!" Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Persephone Hazard (# 4648) on :
 
I heard this article on the BBC news this morning.

Basically, some think-tank or another (I'm not 100% sure if it's the Government or another organisation) has decided that it would be a really good idea for people to be handed advice about tacking obesity every time they shop in, say, Evans, or another so-called 'plus size' shop.

Fucking, fucking hell. And as if this idea wasn't patronising and degrading enough, they want "health checks, including waist and weight measurements, for all school leavers".

I dread to think what sort of an effect this would have had on me when I left secondary school, and I am sure that I am by no means alone in thinking that this is a Seriously Unhelpful idea.

All the charts, measurements etc are seriously screwed up anyway, though. According to my BMI I'm 'severely obese' (which is the random category they've chucked in between 'obese' and 'morbidly obese', seemingly just to make people feel like crap). Now, I know I'm not the universe's thinnest woman (18-20 on the top, 16-18 on the bottom) but I don't think I'm that big, all things considered.

It's almost as though they're trying to perpetrate a culture of low body image, poor self esteem, eating disorders and crash dieting.

Arrrrrrrrgh.

[EDIT-Preview Post is even more my friend when I'm this riled. Honest.]

[ 04. April 2007, 12:57: Message edited by: Sarkycow ]
 

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Posted by Mr Clingford (# 7961) on :
 
I think you just have
 

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Posted by Raspberry Rabbit (# 3080) on :
 
Problem is that 'experts say' is a little bit like 'some people say' which could be anybody - speaking officially or unofficially - it's hard to glean from the article exactly who said that. This may be one of those media-magnified stories which is mostly hot air.

Unfortunately it's of a piece with a lot of stigmatising grumbling about fat people not being given access to services etc. There is a mean streak out there. No question.

I'm so upset I'm gonna have to have at least three chocolates.

RR

[ 15. December 2006, 13:34: Message edited by: Raspberry Rabbit ]
 

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Posted by The Great Gumby (# 10989) on :
 
If George Alberti's involved, you can be sure this is driven by the government. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
 

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Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
I can really see shops wanting to rush up to their fat customers more or less saying 'hey, you don't want to wear that, do you? Here's a way for you to wear normal clothes like real people.' That'll work.

The apologist on the tv news yesterday was quite sure that no-one would find it insulting, but that customers so approached would be grateful to know that there are approved ways of losing weight and so would not be tempted to follow faddish and potentially harmful diets, being fat and therefore unusually vulnerable to stupid scams.

Naturally it will not have occurred to seriously fat people that there are ways to lose weight, and naturally they will be too stupid - being fat - to know where to seek these methods without the help of the 'experts'.

I think it was the recommendation of a university department, so with the usual weight (haha!) that the government gives to educationally generated advice I suspect we'll hear nothing more about this.
 

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Posted by Benny Gee (# 5204) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Raspberry Rabbit:
I'm so upset I'm gonna have to have at least three chocolates.

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• Stricter planning regulations to only allow new housing complexes if they have sports facilities and green parks nearby
• Tax processed food high in sugar and salt
• Only allow new urban roads if they have cycle lanes

quote:

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Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
Maybe there should be a counter-programme for those whom we can visually identify as having an underweight BMI? Like, chasing after anorexic girls with cupcakes in the mall?

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Yes, yes, YES. I'm going down to my local shopping centre right now to stand outside all those shops you can't shop in if you have curves and throw blocks of lard at skinny people
 

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Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
Can I join you?

Gill H, a regular shopper at the Hefty Hideaway.
 

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Posted by Izzybee (# 10931) on :
 
Ugh!

I've haad to shop at "those" stores before, and it's not exactly a picnic walking in there to start with. Especially the first time you have to do it (personally after that I came to terms with the fat and decided to own it rather than pretend it wasn't there). How about they tell you just a bit more about how fat you are after you've plucked up the courage to go in there to start with?

Like Spiffy, I'm headed down to my local "1.3.5" right now to pass out cupcakes. And I don't want any of those "I'm just naturally like that" excuses. If you're just natually like that, then you won't mind the cupcake, just the same as if I'm just natually like that, I won't mind the condescending diet-guide-for-stupid-people. Yeah.
 

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Posted by Amazing Grace (# 95) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
Maybe there should be a counter-programme for those whom we can visually identify as having an underweight BMI? Like, chasing after anorexic girls with cupcakes in the mall?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Persephone Hazard:
Fucking, fucking hell. And as if this idea wasn't patronising and degrading enough, they want "health checks, including waist and weight measurements, for all school leavers".

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Yes, very necessary. Because so many teenagers get through school without noticing that they're not Kate Moss! How different my life might have been if someone had only told me I was a fat git. Oh wait. They did. Even when I wasn't.
 

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Posted by babybear (# 34) on :
 

quote:

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From the article:
"So we need to think out of the box, nothing that has been looked at so far seem to have worked."

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
I assume this is not the proper thread in which to insert the terribly unkind 'roll her in flour' comment.

Boys can be so cruel.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
Wow. I shop at plus size stores because I'm a sturdy built gal.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
Dmitri and Vassily, is outrage you are going to Church of England church where people are noticing who is fat and who is thin and who has wedgie!

In Orthodox Church if woman is fat she is good cook and has large family with plenty farmland. If woman is skinny she is either sick or starving and is not nice to make remarks about size of woman anyway. Why do you look at women? You should be looking at icons. For shame.

Come home to Orthodox Church where nobody notices things like that (and keep your hands to yourselves--you know better than that!).

Stand aright, stand with fear: Wisdom!

Masha
President
St. Dmitri's Babushka Brigade

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Zdrastivitcha, Masha. It is refreshment for us all, that you post this. it was very good for us to hear your giftedness, I had hard time containing not to yell out loud, what I yell, I do not know but glory! Rejoice in your Salutations, I mean Salvation! - duchessnova, in-training for Russian Orthodoxy World Domination

[insert Russian Orthodoxy Icon here.]

[ 15. December 2006, 16:20: Message edited by: duchess ]
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 66) on :
 
Have you ever noticed there always seem to be more big people than tall people in 'The Big and Tall Shop'? And I wonder how the tall people feel about being lumped in with the big people. Perhaps they would prefer their own separate shop.
 

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Posted by Leetle Masha (# 8209) on :
 
Tovarichina Duchessa, in my parish we are having three skinny women. One is on strict anti-cholesterol diet to keep her from dropping dead in middle of liturgy. Two others are cancer survivors.


I hope their old babusha beats Vassily and Dmitri with stick.

Masha
of St. Dmitri's Babushka Brigade
 

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Posted by Iole Nui (# 3373) on :
 
My mum's tall (well, comparatively, this is Scotland), very large breasted, and even when not overweight often had to buy stuff in Evans.

I can just imagine her reaction if some officious twit had started to lecture her about healthy eating when she was already pissed off at having trekked round the shops looking for something she could fit. They'd have been lucky to live.

So there.
 

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Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 
Marsha, Is outrage! Vsyo pad kontrolem*.

duchessnova, in-training for Russian Orthodoxy World Domination

*Everything is under control

[ ]

[ 15. December 2006, 16:33: Message edited by: duchess ]
 

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Posted by Leetle Masha (# 8209) on :
 
Duchessnova, if you are calling me Marsha one more time I am beating you with stick.

MAsha.
Furious Babushka Brigade of St. Dmitri who is riding on bay as opposed to St. Georgi who is on Lippizaner.
 

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Posted by The Atheist (# 12067) on :
 
What the fuck's with this? Which underfed, underbrained shithead started all this obesity shit.

"People are Getting Fatter!" Well surprise, fucking surprise!

Human metabolism has for our entire existence been geared toward preserving energy because food has never been plentiful enough - or fatty enough - to let large numbers of our populace turn into tubbies; until about 100 years ago. Now that food and fatty food is freely available, some people are going to get fat!

And if they're happy with being a bit tubby (and if they're women, they ought to be, because BBW are what women should look like, not some stick-figure with a heroin needle up her arse.) then who's to say otherwise?

It's one area where old prejudices are allowed to rule.

I'm a recruiter and recently had a customer turn a candidate down because she was "too fat"! While flabberagsted and disgusted, there was nothing I could do about it without slitting my own throat, so I had to let it pass, but it's a disgrace!

The government, the press, the bigoted filth in the boardrooms can all go fuck themselves! Let people be what they are happy being.

I possibly wouldn't be so cynical or disgusted about this business if there weren't a multi-billion dollar business out there which has as its only agenda to make people want to try to lose weight - the "slimming" industry. Possibly the second-least honest business in the world - after astrology.

BMIs? Joke. The entire All Blacks front row are classed, by BMI, as "morbidy obese"! Not bad for three blokes at the supreme peak of fitness.

As my avatar bloke once said - lies, damned lies and statistics...

The only stat here which matters is self-esteem. Hold it, keep it, cherish it. And be thankful that no poor sod's going to get cut by your bony body. Just remember to go for tall blokes. Tall blokes are usually the least slim-centric people - based upon my own experience as a tall bloke with lots of tall mates; it's those weedy little short-arse pricks who want to sleep with skeletons, big blokes need lots of woman!
 

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Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Persephone Hazard:
All the charts, measurements etc are seriously screwed up anyway, though. According to my BMI I'm 'severely obese' (which is the random category they've chucked in between 'obese' and 'morbidly obese', seemingly just to make people feel like crap). Now, I know I'm not the universe's thinnest woman (18-20 on the top, 16-18 on the bottom) but I don't think I'm that big, all things considered.

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quote:

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Originally posted by PeaceFeet:
ISTM that SOME of the proposals laid out in the article would benefit everyone, such as:

• Stricter planning regulations to only allow new housing complexes if they have sports facilities and green parks nearby
• Tax processed food high in sugar and salt
• Only allow new urban roads if they have cycle lanes

Not very hellworthy, but those things sound good to me.

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quote:

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Originally posted by PeaceFeet:
ISTM that SOME of the proposals laid out in the article would benefit everyone, such as:

• Stricter planning regulations to only allow new housing complexes if they have sports facilities and green parks nearby
• Tax processed food high in sugar and salt
• Only allow new urban roads if they have cycle lanes

Not very hellworthy, but those things sound good to me.

The point "Health checks, including waist and weight measurements, for all school leavers" sounds a bit odd. What are they going to do, fail their A Levels for them because they're too big?

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quote:

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Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Yes, but this would require forward planning from the government and action to tackle Big Business. Let's be honest, if I were the Government, I'd be thinking how much easier it would be just to hand out a few leaflets pointing out to everyone that it's their fault.

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quote:

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I can really see shops wanting to rush up to their fat customers more or less saying 'hey, you don't want to wear that, do you? Here's a way for you to wear normal clothes like real people.' That'll work.

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Great Fast Show sketch though: "So, sir, have we found it too difficult to say no to Mr Doughnut? Not so much a six pack as a barrel is it sir? Bit more salad and a few less Maccy D's for you sir, yes sir, no sir, suit you sir!"
 

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Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 
Dorogaya Masha, Please don't beat me with that stick. Whooo, just gives me chills thinking about it.
-duchessnova, in-training for Russian Orthodoxy World Domination

[eta: head hangs in heavy shame.]

[ 15. December 2006, 17:24: Message edited by: duchess ]
 

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Posted by Leetle Masha (# 8209) on :
 
Is all right this time, Duchessnova. But watchit.

Babushka Masha
 

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Posted by Pax Romana (# 4653) on :
 


I am a genuine fat woman (US Size 22-24). Almost everyone in my immediate family has (or has had) a weight problem. So yes, it is at least partly genetic. My family would have survived very well in the Stone Age, and we would have passed our genes along to future generations of humans -- which is probably what happened to us.

If anyone came up to me in one of my favorite plus-size stores shoving literature at me, telling me I am too fat and suggesting ways to lose weight, said nuisance would shortly be fishing said literature out of a place where the sun doesn't shine.

So listen up, world --

• "Fat" does NOT equal "stupid." It's not like I haven't thought of everything you are trying to tell me already!
• In addition, the words '"fat" and "slob" do not necessarily go together. We can be just as neat and clean as anybody.
• Some of the best looking people I have known have been fat people. And if you REALLY look at me, you might see that I am not all that bad looking.
• SO MIND YOUR OWN DAMN BUSINESS!

So there!

Pax Romana

[ 15. December 2006, 17:36: Message edited by: Pax Romana ]
 

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Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :
 
Ruth, yes some people are definitely that big and in denial but I'd say that the problem is that our society tells them to hate themselves for it. If person X didn't think that being fat meant being horrible then maybe he or she could accept that they're fat and live with it or work on it.
 

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Posted by Mostly Noble Pixels (# 8783) on :
 
Actually, according to what I have - ummm - been told, been with a woman who is blessed with an enormous ass can be a real advantage while using leather sheets because it lifts one high enough to avoid chafing to the top of one's thighs during libidinous moments.
But of course, that is based only on what I have been told.
Is anyone able to clarify that a bit?
 

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Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gwai:
Ruth, yes some people are definitely that big and in denial but I'd say that the problem is that our society tells them to hate themselves for it. If person X didn't think that being fat meant being horrible then maybe he or she could accept that they're fat and live with it or work on it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by RooK:
But you're also people that consume more resources, literally, and create an additional element of burden on society.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
And I wonder how the tall people feel about being lumped in with the big people. Perhaps they would prefer their own separate shop.

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quote:

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Originally posted by RooK:
You're people. Fine. But you're also people that consume more resources, literally, and create an additional element of burden on society. So it is clearly in society's favour to try to find a means to reduce unhealthy obesity. And, you know what you reactionary fatsos? It might even be good for you too.

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It would be good for us, if it were something that actually worked. Picking on people doesn't work when you're trying to change their behavior. It's a shame for both of us, Rook -- like you, I love picking on people -- but there it is. If you were truly concerned about the burden on society, you'd be advocating things that really help people lose weight instead of calling us names. But I don't think you're as interested in the burden on society as you are in holding fat people in contempt because it makes you feel good about your thin, fit self. Such a shame you can't feel good about your thin, fit self -- and it's certainly something to feel good about and proud of -- in a way that's really good.
 

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Posted by Leetle Masha (# 8209) on :
 
I am not beating with sticks the intelligent Comet who is not staring at other people in church and pulling out wedgies.

I am thinking that removing the trans fats will solve many problems. What we want is to prevent heart attacks and strokes (very expensive for medical bills because of delicate surgery, extended hospital stays and long convalescences away from work) caused by clogged arteries, not just to make people look like Nicole Ritchie who is busted for driving wrong way on freeway, having overindulged when her booze capacity was lessened due to weighing only 85 lb.

Memo to bartenders: Do not sell so much booze to deliberately emaciated, self-absorbed starlets.

Memo to Orthodoxen: please mention to church authorities that it should be pig grease and not olive oil to be fasted away from. Olive oil very good for everybody. Pig fat not.

Masha
Babushka, etc.

[ 15. December 2006, 19:35: Message edited by: Leetle Masha ]
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 66) on :
 
One of RooK's most endearing traits is his ability to see differences instead of similarities. Rather isolating for him one might suppose, but endearing nonetheless.
 

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Posted by comet (# 10353) on :
 
And since I've already wasted too much worktime..

***comet climbs on personal favorite soapbox***

furthermore:

I challenge all parents everywhere to bring your kids into the kitchen. buy foods in their raw state. make your own bread. create your own spaghetti sauce. it doesn't have to be gourmet, but it's time for you to rediscover and therefore introduce your kids to where their calories come from.

brownies from the store are so easy. make some. from scratch! (burn that box of scarey brown powder!) first, you put the effort in, second, you and your children see what elements make those brownies. or the spaghetti. or that apple fritter.

Ask your kids to do a math assignment - you're making a pot of stew. to the stew, you are adding a cup of cooked chicken (at X calories) a pound of potatoes (at Y cals) and 2 pounds of carrots (at Z calories) how many calories in the completed stew? how many per serving? how many for dad if he uses the big mixing bowl for his serving?

how many to have ice cream for dessert?

And have them plan meals. they need to have their protiens, their veggies, their starches. what goes together? what tastes good? and compare a spaghetti dinner to a chicken salad, caloric, fat content, protein. make them think about it rather than considering a bowl a cheerios and a beer dinner when they go off to college!

and this isn't just for fat kids and fat families - it's for everyone. I have skinny kids and a skinny husband. skinny people have heart attacks too.
 

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Posted by Leetle Masha (# 8209) on :
 
Oh my , I am now reading the article instead of listening to news reports and I see that it was Vicodin and pot, not booze, that caused the starlet to drive crazy.

However, at 85 lb., alcohol would be a danger too and could be dangerous both to overindulger and others just like any other drug.

Looking at the picture, I am also wondering what happened to one side of her nose....

M
 

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Posted by Pânts (# 999) on :
 
That assumes that parents are at home to do all of that Comet.
 

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Posted by comet (# 10353) on :
 
Not really Pants - until I got sick I worked 60+ hours a week, and i'm down to 40. and i'm single-parenting.

and I'm far from perfect. but it doesn't have to be a super duper roast each night. soup is dead easy and quick. make bread on the weekends, or start smaller with the brownies. salads are also dead easy, so is stir-fry. it's a matter of educating yourself (as a parent) and then getting the kids in the room, TV etc off, to watch you do it. let them asks questions. explain things. give them jobs.

I know it sounds like a huge thing, but it isn't. and, for me and my family, it is worth it to see my kids making their own lunches and making sure to remember a protien source and at least two servings of fruits, etc.

(ETA: yes, I know there's a lot of parents who are absentee and determined not to do stuff like this. but I am very uncomfortable with it being all on the school's shoulders, or the doctors, or that poor kid when they're 30 or 40 and somehow they missed the idea that, say, graham crackers are as bad as a cookie/biscuit. so yes, I'm dreaming. but it starts one parent at a time.)

[ 15. December 2006, 20:22: Message edited by: comet ]
 

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Posted by Left at the Altar (# 5077) on :
 
I think that handing out pamphlets to fat people when they buy clothes to point out to them that they are fat is an excellent idea.


I do hope that the education process will be extended to others who put themselves and the economy at risk, such as people who purchase alcohol more than once a fortnight (Stop! Your Liver is Dying! The Health System Can't Afford You!), cigarettes (Stop! You Stink and Will Die Soon! Don't Expect Our Health System to Give You New Lungs!), ridiculously fast cars (Stop! You Will Die Soon and Kill Others in the Effort! Our Health System Can't Be Expected To Sew Your Guts Back In!), houses they can't afford (Stop! You Will Go Broke and Your Children Will Be Homeless! Don't Expect Public Housing From Us!) and those who have sex with the wrong people or the right people for the wrong reasons (Stop! You Will Die! We Can't Keep Giving You Drugs for the Clap, You Know!).

Terrific System.
 

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Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by comet:
Gwai - then that's not the helpful kind of phys ed, is it? it needs to actually teach people how to keep their bodies fit and healthy, and why that is necessary.

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quote:

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Originally posted by comet:
massive reform is necessary

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Boy, that ought to be tattooed somewhere. Everywhere.

(Although it sort of makes me think of ‘Animal Farm’ too, come to think of it.)
 

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Posted by Agent Smith (# 3299) on :
 
Another large person checking in.

If the larget clothing shop had given me "helpful advice" when purchasing clothes, I would have avoided shopping there. I have started to lose weight as I want to have a BMI of 35 (which according to the figures is still obsese, but fit enough to get into a public service!)

Re: the sport in schools thing, we were talking about itat work yesterday, and my colleague (who is stick thin - but thinks she needs to lose weight?) said that she hated sport at school, it was only until she was doing it for herself that it made a difference. When I joined the gym, I had huge issues about running, etc (the post is somewhere else on the board) however I go to the gym for ME! and because I want to enjoy better health.

I know what is healthy, and things should be eaten or drunk in moderation. This begins in education both at home and at school, by teaching kids how to run a home (ie eating properly,) not designing sodding cereal packets! .
 

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Posted by marmot (# 479) on :
 

quote:

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comet said: taking the freaking soda pop out of the schools!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
Tovarichina Duchessa, in my parish we are having three skinny women. One is on strict anti-cholesterol diet to keep her from dropping dead in middle of liturgy.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
I do hope that the education process will be extended to others who put themselves and the economy at risk, such as people who purchase alcohol more than once a fortnight (Stop! Your Liver is Dying! The Health System Can't Afford You!), cigarettes (Stop! You Stink and Will Die Soon! Don't Expect Our Health System to Give You New Lungs!), ridiculously fast cars (Stop! You Will Die Soon and Kill Others in the Effort! Our Health System Can't Be Expected To Sew Your Guts Back In!), houses they can't afford (Stop! You Will Go Broke and Your Children Will Be Homeless! Don't Expect Public Housing From Us!) and those who have sex with the wrong people or the right people for the wrong reasons (Stop! You Will Die! We Can't Keep Giving You Drugs for the Clap, You Know!).

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quote:

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Originally posted by RooK:
Moreover, I think that there also certain well-understood stigmas that go with each of these. Well, except for the housing one, but maybe there should be.

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one of my goals in life is to convince the world what a Bad Idea the McMansions movement really is.

if I can move it in the right direction by heaping scorn on people who buy homes beyond their means, I shall do so.

the rats drive up the housing market for the rest of us, so soon you have to make really obscene amounts to buy a sleazy one-room fixer upper.

it's the credit system, I tell ya. I could make a whole other long hell thread on that.

RooK - I think we're saying the same thing from different sides. the problem is people take it as black and white. to tell someone that they are overweight and need to do something to help themselves is not attacking them or being bigotted - but you have to understand that people with a lifetime of obesity have been taking it in the neck from every insecure bully yahoo to come along.

even stupid people pick on fat people. it's the bottom of the pecking order.

We do need to be able to have the discussion (as a society) but we need to approach the table knowing there is a huge iceburg of pain out there, and that pain is very real, and more importantly, no beaurocrat or teacher or health care professional will be listened to at all if they do not acknowlege and make allowances for some very real pain.

When you've spent your life hearing the siren FAT-so! FAT-so! echoing in your head from the voices all around you, and someone comes along and says, "we need to talk about your obesity," the first thing you're going to do is react as if you've been hit.

it's human nature.

I truly believe the answer is positive support, period - and chastising or pointing out what people know already is only making the problem worse. You think there is a single overweight person over the age of 2 who doesn't know it? Who wouldn't change it if they could?

(not attacking you, RooK, it's a rhetorical question)

I think the answer is in education, paving the way to lifestyle change, and to stop supporting the problem i.e. soda in the schools and burgers on the federally funded lunch programs.
 

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Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :
 
I can find no flaw with your post or your points, comet.

Except one.
Stupid people are worth less than fat people. That stupid people are picking on their superiors is merely a symptom of their stupidity.
 

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Posted by Leetle Masha (# 8209) on :
 
Free Jack quipped:

quote:

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Perhaps if your liturgies weren't four hours long....

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quote:

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Originally posted by RooK:
Stupid people are worth less than fat people. That stupid people are picking on their superiors is merely a symptom of their stupidity.

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quote:

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Originally posted by RooK:

Let's take this delightful bit of myopic irony:

quote:

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Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
I do hope that the education process will be extended to others who put themselves and the economy at risk, such as people who purchase alcohol more than once a fortnight (Stop! Your Liver is Dying! The Health System Can't Afford You!), cigarettes (Stop! You Stink and Will Die Soon! Don't Expect Our Health System to Give You New Lungs!), ridiculously fast cars (Stop! You Will Die Soon and Kill Others in the Effort! Our Health System Can't Be Expected To Sew Your Guts Back In!), houses they can't afford (Stop! You Will Go Broke and Your Children Will Be Homeless! Don't Expect Public Housing From Us!) and those who have sex with the wrong people or the right people for the wrong reasons (Stop! You Will Die! We Can't Keep Giving You Drugs for the Clap, You Know!).

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It seems to me that alcohol and cigarettes are specifically labelled with warnings, there are government warnings about how "speed kills", and there are publicly-funded awareness campaigns promoting sexual abstinence. Moreover, I think that there also certain well-understood stigmas that go with each of these. Well, except for the housing one, but maybe there should be.

So, fundamentally, there's a lot of precedent for society in general trying to influence ourselves in a manner intended to promote aspects that are thought to be of some worth. And I think it makes sense that we should try to be self-improving. Why should public health, specifically the alarming rate of obesity, be the one aspect that's a no-no to even discuss?

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quote:

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duchessnova, in-training for Russian Orthodoxy World Domination

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(Soothing voice.)

Duchess, come on back to the Light side of the Force. You know you want to. Pssst...we just got a shipment of state-of-the-art light sabers! You will get TWO of your very own, plus a combo mini-saber/bookmark for your steel-plated Bible, if you'll just come back!
 

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Posted by Sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 
Masha and duchess, stop your crusading about Orthodoxy. If you wish to discuss it any further, use PMs, or start a thread in Purg. If you just wish to give eachother high fives for knowing the in jokes of Orthodoxy, start a thread in AS.

Sarkycow, hellhost
 

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Posted by Sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 
As for the fatsos moaning that people now want to stigmatize your for being fat - HAH. That's justice.

Where were you bastards when people were victimizing the smokers? Standing with the smokers? I don't think so. You* were all too busy telling smokers that they were a drain on the NHS and they harmed other people, and so should either give up smoking or kill themselves.

So now I mock you. You should have to go outside to eat, and all your clothes need to be labelled: "WARNING, BEING FAT KILLS. INCREASED RISK OF HEART DISEASE." And people should feel free to lecture you every time they see you even looking at any food other than salad - "Shouldn't be eating fatty foods."



Sarkycow

*Apart from the fatsos who smoke: you're excluded from this rant
 

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Posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe (# 5521) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sarkycow:
As for the fatsos moaning that people now want to stigmatize your for being fat - Where were you bastards when people were victimizing the smokers? . . . You should have to go outside to eat, and all your clothes need to be labelled: "WARNING, BEING FAT KILLS. INCREASED RISK OF HEART DISEASE."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
Sorry, Sarkycow.

Mary

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sarkycow:
*Apart from the fatsos who smoke: you're excluded from this rant

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sarkycow:
As for the fatsos moaning that people now want to stigmatize your for being fat - Where were you bastards when people were victimizing the smokers? . . . You should have to go outside to eat, and all your clothes need to be labelled: "WARNING, BEING FAT KILLS. INCREASED RISK OF HEART DISEASE."

---

Not the same thing, and you know it. Fat people don't spew cancerous lipids into the lungs of innocent bystanders.

---

No, much more importantly you are influencing children - showing them that eating trashy foods is cool.

The amount of smokers is decreasing; the amount of overweight people is increasing. Smokers are probably as dangerous to other people as fat people are, if you factor in the influence on kids.

Sarkycow
 

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Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sarkycow:
The amount of smokers is decreasing; the amount of overweight people is increasing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spiffy:
And I sincerely doubt, RuthW, that you are half as stupid as you sound.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
...there's no conclusive evidence that being fat (except for being grossly obese) kills or increases risk of heart disease. You smokers should be familiar with that line of arguing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sarkycow:
The amount of smokers is decreasing; the amount of overweight people is increasing...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Corpus cani:
...Why are people fat? Because they're storing too much fat. Now, let's guess where they're storing most of the fat that does the damage. On their bellies? No. On their hips? No. On their thighs? No. Ooh, fancy - it's IN THEIR ARTERIES!!!!

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Gort:

quote:

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Originally posted by Sarkycow:
The amount of smokers is decreasing; the amount of overweight people is increasing...

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There you have it. The increasing numbers of overweight people are all ex-smokers with the munchies!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sarkycow:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sarkycow:
As for the fatsos moaning that people now want to stigmatize your for being fat - Where were you bastards when people were victimizing the smokers? . . . You should have to go outside to eat, and all your clothes need to be labelled: "WARNING, BEING FAT KILLS. INCREASED RISK OF HEART DISEASE."

---

Not the same thing, and you know it. Fat people don't spew cancerous lipids into the lungs of innocent bystanders.

---

No, much more importantly you are influencing children - showing them that eating trashy foods is cool.

---

Hey now that's just not true! Us Fatties hive off into unlit cupboards, or under the duvets, with our Sainsbury bags full of lard and chocolate to slob our relish in dark, miserable, isolation, feeding our low self-esteem as we feed our faces .

Once upon a time you'd find fag-ends dropped surrepticiously out of a bedroom window or round the back of the bike-sheds. These days it's Wagon-Wheel wrappers and Mr Kipling boxes.....

Maybe the shame game does work after all. Every time I order dessert when I go out for a special meal with friends and family, I feel as if I should have a note from my doctor .
 

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Posted by trebuchet (# 11970) on :
 
I'm fat - probably about 50 lbs overweight - and it is a health risk, and I should be lectured by my doctor every time I see him. I support efforts to make it easier for me to lose weight (if doctors could prescribe a gym so my health insurance covered the membership fees, for instance; if the government outlawed high fructose corn syrup or gave subsidies to lower the prices of healthy foods) and to provide tools whereby I can learn more about nutrition, if I want to seek out that information. And to teach this stuff better in schools so people have a solid foundation (no pun intended).

I should not be lectured by store clerks when buying clothes. That's dumb. Not only is it offensive, of course, but it's counterproductive. If you want people to lose weight, the worst thing you can do is try to shame them into doing it. Shame and guilt make most people - especially fat people - eat more. Because eating is comfort. Shaming fat people doesn't make there be fewer fat people. That so many fat people try to lose weight and fail means there's a problem not just with their willpower or whatever, but with how society's structured, or else we wouldn't have so many more fat people than we did 100 years ago. People didn't magically become weaker-willed.

To get people to lose weight, we need to remove the economic barriers to thinness.

Where I live, a head of lettuce ($2.16) costs more than twice as much as a fast food burger ($0.99). It's almost impossible to find convenience foods - foods that if you made them at home, you would not put sugar into - that do not contain sucrose, dextrose or, worse, high fructose corn sugar (and let's face it, not everybody is going to have time to cook for themselves). Not to mention the fat content. And gym memberships are about $50/month, which is a lot of money for a lot of people, myself included, and most cities are structured such that it's really hard to get around without using a car or, if you're lucky enough to have it, public transit. (I really miss living in a place where I could walk to work.)

Ultimately, I attribute my weight gain to poverty. Yes, I made some bad choices, and I am not saying that to deny my own culpability. But the fact remains that being poor narrows your healthy options down considerably. Now that I am not poor anymore, I have many more options - I can buy healthier foods and I can afford a gym membership (or actually, a Nintendo Wii and fitness software).
 

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Posted by Amazing Grace (# 95) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:

---

Originally posted by PeaceFeet:
ISTM that SOME of the proposals laid out in the article would benefit everyone, such as:

• Stricter planning regulations to only allow new housing complexes if they have sports facilities and green parks nearby
• Tax processed food high in sugar and salt
• Only allow new urban roads if they have cycle lanes

Not very hellworthy, but those things sound good to me.

---

I agree. But I think they should just get hydrogenated oils and high-fructose corn syrup out of the food industry entirely. We lived just fine without them for a long time, and they should simply be eliminated.

---

Right on, Ruth. HFCS is the work of the debbil. It's insane how much stuff it's in (momma taught me to read labels).

(those cupcakes I was mentioning ... made with real butter and real sugar. not "health food" beyond being good for the morale but at least it's proper scratch baking .)

Charlotte
 

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Posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep (# 5267) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spiffy:
And I sincerely doubt, RuthW, that you are half as stupid as you sound.

---

You're running out of substantive things to say, I see.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by trebuchet:
... Where I live, a head of lettuce ($2.16) costs more than twice as much as a fast food burger ($0.99).

---

quote:

---

... Now that I am not poor anymore, I have many more options - I can buy healthier foods and I can afford a gym membership (or actually, a Nintendo Wii and fitness software).

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
Actually, I didn't have time to come up with anything else, my fat ass had a hot date last night, and I'm just now getting home.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:
Actually, I didn't have time to come up with anything else, my fat ass had a hot date last night, and I'm just now getting home.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Corpus cani:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
...there's no conclusive evidence that being fat (except for being grossly obese) kills or increases risk of heart disease. You smokers should be familiar with that line of arguing.

---

HELLO???? Miss Amanda????? You Home???? Planet Earth calling!

Have you missed all the stuff about blocked arteries? . . . Moreover, I'm awfully sorry, but, even though you don't smoke and you're not "grossly obese", the chances are that you will die from a heart attack caused by fat-clogged arteries.

Corpus

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mirrizin:
... Personally, I think, if you're willing to make the time to cook your own food instead of wasting your hard earned money on prepackaged crap, you can eat pretty well for cheap, IMO.

---

Truth be told, my standard fare is frozen stir-fry veggies with chicken, shrimp or fish tossed in... fifteen minutes, stove to table. Yeah, I know the veggies are dead when frozen but at least I'm getting some roughage. A trip to a burger joint takes longer and besides, who wants to wake up with this plastic-headed knob in bed with them?
 

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Posted by Duck (# 10181) on :
 
On the resource use front - i'm an ultramarathon runner and Ironman triathlete, and the sort of shape you get by running 70 miles per week for a few years. i reckon that with daily running, a physical job in a bike shop, and the odd bit of cycling or swimming too, i probably double my calorie requirements compared to a sedentary person most days. I also cost the NHS money for occasional physio for injuries, and I've had a few friends get squashed by cars, break limbs, sprain ankles, or otherwise consume NHS resources whilst selfishly pursuing recreational activites. I'd guess that someone who lives to a ripe old age whilst sustaining occasional injuries through sport probably costs the NHS lots. I'm not particularly interested in being healthy for its own sake - doing double-marathons for fun doesn't do your body a whole lot of good, but it's like deciding to put up with the hangover for the sake of a really good night out.

the clothes phone line is a daft idea. i'm a UK size 12 even with a low % body fat, 'cos i come from a long line of Welsh Prop Forwards and I'm fairly tall with size 10 feet (have to go in tall people's shops for them). On the other hand, if it means there will be queues of people lining up to feed me cake outside shops, I'm all for it - yes to phone lines in clothes! yes to cake!
 

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Posted by Gort (# 6855) on :
 
How far would you go to satisfy your hunger?
 

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Posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep (# 5267) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:
Well, perhaps because there turns out to be a significant population of "chubby chasers" in Portland?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mirrizin:
Personally, I think, if you're willing to make the time to cook your own food instead of wasting your hard earned money on prepackaged crap, you can eat pretty well for cheap, IMO.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by trebuchet:
If we're trying to craft a governmental policy to fix the obesity issue, then the solutions have to depend on more than shame and individual effort.

---

quote:

---

I don't the price of chicken per pound, but four reasonable-sized (about the size of my palm) breasts is about $2.50 I think.

---

Oh, when I said "Chicken", I meant chicken quarters. That's basically a thigh & drumstick with a bit of the pelvis attached. Not as much white meat, perhaps a bit more tricky to cook, certainly more bones to work around, but a lot cheaper to buy pound for pound. Plus you get some dark meat, and the bones make for good soup fixins.

Even assuming that...four meals' worth of chicken for $2.50 = 63 cents a meal. And I bet that chicken has more useful caloric intake than your typical McDonald's burger.

And I'll grant you that it is partly a class thing. It's also an education thing and a geography thing. I remember being startled to hear that there are neighborhoods here in beloved Chi-town that haven't had a grocery store since the 60's (apparently the crime rates scare people off). People were thrilled when Wal-Mart finally moved in because at least they had something.

I just don't think that it's necessarily helpful to just assume that it's a fact that if you're poor you must be unable to afford to eat right.

[ 17. December 2006, 03:25: Message edited by: mirrizin ]
 

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Posted by Janine (# 3337) on :
 
When the income is limited, you may not have a refrigerator, you may not have a stove, you may not have a microwave, you may not have a safe place to use charcoal or propane outside.

Or even if you carefully plot and plan and manage to get all those things, when they unexpectedly malfunction it takes a while to put together the funds to replace them.

You may not have all that you need as far as utensils, pots, pans, crockery. You may not have what you need to store extra food once it's cooked, or to store items you found on sale or in bulk and thus affordable at one time.

You may not be able to afford much in the way of spices with which to liven up that weeks-long diet of sale-priced leg quarters and the institutional-sized bags of carrots.

There are many reasons why a diet of Ramen noodles or fatburgers is easy to fall into.

It would be good if there'd be wide-spread banning of transfats and corn syrups, etc., in fast food at least.
 

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Posted by comet (# 10353) on :
 
re: food prices.

sissies.

chicken is almost $4 a pound, and broccoli is $2.20. I dont know lettuce as I never eat it winters.

the coveted box of mandarin oranges cost $12.00.

(just did my big shopping today)

here endeth the tangent, before Sarky/RooK/Marvin beat me with sticks.

[ 17. December 2006, 04:01: Message edited by: comet ]
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Why, I think your comments are quite pertinent, comet. While people are blithely assuming it's cheaper to eat fresh, they are not considering the unique needs of those folk who live up in the Great White Where-the-hell-am-I?, who can't get said fresh veggies/ fruit.
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
Janine
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
So there I was, standing in the checkout queue in the hospital centeen the other day, and I overhear two doctors just behind me having an earnest conversation in geek-speak about "obesogenic" foods and the like. (I think that was the word. It was something like that, anyway, and it was what made me think "geek".) Eventually I turned round, to see two ridiculously skinny, miserable-looking men with what looked like something you'd give a rabbit on a diet on their trays.

"That's all very well," I said, "But do you actually like that stuff?" (Nodding towards the rabbit food.)

Awkward pause, accompanied by guilty looks from the thin people. Then one of them says, "No, it's horrible. My wife makes me do this."

I like scoring points against miserable skinny folk.
 

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Posted by Flausa (# 3466) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Janine:
When the income is limited . . . You may not be able to afford [refrigerater, stove, pots, pans, spices, fresh veg, etc]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Why, I think your comments are quite pertinent, comet. While people are blithely assuming it's cheaper to eat fresh, they are not considering the unique needs of those folk who live up in the Great White Where-the-hell-am-I?, who can't get said fresh veggies/ fruit.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:

quote:

---

Originally posted by trebuchet:
If we're trying to craft a governmental policy to fix the obesity issue, then the solutions have to depend on more than shame and individual effort.

---

If we're trying to craft a governmental policy to address the obesity issue (and I don't think we are), then the solutions are going to have to depend on recognizing all the salient aspects of the issue - including the levels of obesity in individuals. So unless all the individual fat bastards are completely OK with being unsafe near Inuit reservations, there's going to potentially be elements of shame.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Flausa:
I'd suspect that your poverty-stricken urban poor aren't as obese as your middle classers

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gort:
You simply can't pin a heavy partner up against the wall or perform acrobatics quite like you can with a lighter one. There, I've said it.

---

Oh, can't you now?
[smug giggle]
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
I dunno, the guy I've had a helpless crush on for (cough) years is a good 100+ pounds heavier than he should be, and I bet if he had any idea the mental gymnastics, acrobatics, and torrid escapades I have put him through, he'd probably have that heart attack he's been working on for a decade or so.

Chub chases chub, I guess, RooK.
 

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Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by trebuchet:
Why does, "We have to change the way we live, because it's killing us" have to translate into, "and that means you, you disgusting porker"?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gort:
You simply can't pin a heavy partner up against the wall or perform acrobatics quite like you can with a lighter one. There, I've said it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gort:

You simply can't pin a heavy partner up against the wall or perform acrobatics quite like you can with a lighter one. There, I've said it.

---

Just because you don't have the upper body strength, Gort, doesn't mean it's impossible.
 

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Posted by Gort (# 6855) on :
 
True. I can only bench-press 195lbs., so there are, unfortunately, limits to my acrobatics on the mat.
 

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Posted by Laura (# 10) on :
 

 

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Posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep (# 5267) on :
 
That's scary, we bench the same amount.
 

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Posted by trebuchet (# 11970) on :
 
You can't have it both ways, RooK. You can't maintain that:

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:
...there's going to potentially be elements of shame.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:
That disgusting porkers have a great propensity for internally translating objective observations into shame is often their own damn doing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by trebuchet:
You are correct to note that many people will see insult where there is only objective observation, but that wasn't what you were talking about before, or it didn't seem to be. Please do feel free to correct me in your usual sweet way if I read you wrong.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:
Because it seems to me that a large proportion of obesity is about individual habits and priorities, and if those aren't addressed in some way that there probably can be nothing accomplished.

---

quote:

---

During the past 20 years there has been a dramatic increase in obesity in the United States. In 1985 only a few states were participating in the CDC's Behavioral Risk Factor Surveillance System (BRFSS) and providing obesity data. In 1991, four states had obesity prevalence rates of 15–19 percent and no states had rates at or above 20 percent.

In 1995, obesity prevalence in each of the 50 states was less than 20 percent. In 2000, 28 states had obesity prevalence rates less than 20 percent.

In 2005, only 4 states had obesity prevalence rates less than 20 percent, while 17 states had prevalence rates equal to or greater than 25 percent, with 3 of those having prevalences equal to or greater than 30 percent (Louisiana, Mississippi, and West Virginia).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
What it comes down to is this: yes, people get fat one bite at a time. But all those individual choices are made in an environment which strongly conditions us to make poor choices. So sure, encourage people to make better choices, but change the environment so it isn't so goddamned hard to do.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
What it comes down to is this: yes, people get fat one bite at a time. But all those individual choices are made in an environment which strongly conditions us to make poor choices. So sure, encourage people to make better choices, but change the environment so it isn't so goddamned hard to do.

---

I would just add that a useful part of that change, as people have already mentioned, would be stopping the planning madness that is making car use all but unavoidable and other transport choices all but impossible.

Comet's comment about maternity shopping reminded of something - those of you who think special measures are needed to remind fat people that they're fat, ought to try being pregnant round here. My post-natal lunch gang were reminiscing about that just the other day, it hit the young and pretty ones the hardest of course, the ones used to being the target of public admiration rather than derision. We all agreed it was a relief to finally get to the Gigantic Obvious Bump stage, so you could eat in public again without being sneered at or hearing uncomplimentary comments about your 'weight'.
 

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Posted by trebuchet (# 11970) on :
 
RuthW: Yes! Thank you for putting it better than I apparently can. That is exactly what I'm talking about.

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:
My suspicion is that if you were to put two restaurants side by side, one of them reasonably-healthy consciencously-prepared healthy food, the other buttery piles of decadence, the clientele will have presorted themselves somewhat. ... And, judging by the perceived affront so far, I wonder how many people would actually want to have such concerns waved in front of their face, on a menu.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rugasaw:
I once saw a program about a town in Japan. The residents of the town were very healthy ate non-fatty foods. Then the fatty foods of the west came to town. Bam! Instant poor health...

---

I read somewhere about a trend for more height too. So, starting back before there was much of a Western diet available -- maybe as far back as WWII -- and rolling forward, it started to become obvious when people's knees would constantly thwack and bang into the next person's while they rode face-to-face bus and train seats.

So either it was Western-type diets growing the younger generations taller or Western-style perverts suddenly taking over the public transport? Hee.

And re: "the poor" around here , whether "working poor" or people who live on public incomes in public housing etc. -- all I can go by is folks I personally run into during my days -- ain't too many skinny. Once you lose the high energy of youngsters' growth spurts, and discounting chronically ill people and heavy smokers (same thing! ), they are all fatter than average.

Or maybe they're all virtuously skinny as poor folks should be and it's the high fat content of my obese eyes making them look fat...
 

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Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
Reading Ruth and RooK's posts clarifies for me that it's really two issues at stake.

Firstly, the people like me, who are fat because we 'abuse' food, and whatever reasons there may be for that, know we do and know the answer is up to us. My response to some of the media hype over obesity is please can others butt out, except for the doctors and proper health professionals who know what they're talking about. Doctors have been telling people what is healthy and not healthy for generations. Sometimes they've even been right! Okay mostly they're right.... There is a level of accountability here for one's own health but nagging and shaming will not get the job done.

But alongside that and yet a discrete issue, then, there are the generations of youngsters who are growing up in a different environment than previous generations. Up to the time I left secondary school I had five periods of games and physical education every week; walked everywhere, rode bicycles and spent as long as possible out of doors, or in group activities. Also at school dinners we ate the one menu that was offered, nothing at all resembling the fast-food outlets most schools seem to feature (we were lucky to have chips once a month!).

We didn't need our school to chuck out its chocolate vending machines or tuck shops and replace them with healthy food snacks either, because most of us got fruit at home or in our pack lunches. And buying sweets was an occasional treat, if pocket-money would allow.

The reason I'm fat now is to do with who I am now, and not with the environment I grew up in. But the reason a larger proportion of future generations of adults will be fat will be more because of the systemic failure others have mentioned to address issues of lifestyle changes, and nutritional needs, which were not an issue when some of us were younger.

As for moralizing how awful it is to spend money on people who get themselves fat and then insist on being treated for fat-related illnesses. Well,
I don't complain when workaholics, or gym-aholics, spend my tax contribs subsidizing the injuries they inflict on themselves carrying out their unhealthy lifestyles. I don't whinge when health-freaks insist on jogging, cycling, walking backwards over razor-blades on their arse-cheeks in order to stay fit, and get themselves hospitalized because of strains, fractures and heart attacks, spending my NI subs. If a person is ill, however, they're ill, I hope the system I help to pay for helps them out.

On the other hand, many very young children are growing up now not making the connection between healthy eating and healthy living and this is what needs the attention.
 

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Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
First they told us our cigarettes were the "number one preventable cause of disease," so we quit smoking and gained weight.

Then they told us that dietary fat was the Worst Thing, so we cut out fat, ate vast quanities of rice and potatoes because we couldn't get satisfied, and the obesity rate spiked in the 1990's.

Then they changed the method of measuring our weight with the BMI scale, and the obesity rate increased overnight.

Then they got really shrill about the Obesity Epidemic, so more people went on diets and even more people gained even more weight, because we're all hard wired to rebound from famine conditions with an increased craving for high calorie foods.

The medical establishment played a big part in creating this problem -- I wish they'd go find a cure for cancer and leave us alone.

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:
You know, I personally don't care about whether any particular person is fat - it doesn't fundamentally change them as a person. But as soon as you wind up with a retribution of "MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS", kindly do the rest of us the favour of not using any public health services for any ailments primarily contributed by your obesity. Ever.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:
Actually, the recent health revelation in the news that's yanking my chain is that 'binge' drinking can now be officially categorized as half a bottle of wine in one evening.

Now I know the world has gone mad.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:
As for moralizing how awful it is to spend money on people who get themselves fat and then insist on being treated for fat-related illnesses. Well,
I don't complain when workaholics, or gym-aholics, spend my tax contribs subsidizing the injuries they inflict on themselves carrying out their unhealthy lifestyles. I don't whinge when health-freaks insist on jogging, cycling, walking backwards over razor-blades on their arse-cheeks in order to stay fit, and get themselves hospitalized because of strains, fractures and heart attacks, spending my NI subs. If a person is ill, however, they're ill, I hope the system I help to pay for helps them out.

---

quote:

---

But alongside that and yet a discrete issue, then, there are the generations of youngsters who are growing up in a different environment than previous generations. Up to the time I left secondary school I had five periods of games and physical education every week; walked everywhere, rode bicycles and spent as long as possible out of doors, or in group activities. Also at school dinners we ate the one menu that was offered, nothing at all resembling the fast-food outlets most schools seem to feature (we were lucky to have chips once a month!).

We didn't need our school to chuck out its chocolate vending machines or tuck shops and replace them with healthy food snacks either, because most of us got fruit at home or in our pack lunches. And buying sweets was an occasional treat, if pocket-money would allow

---

From a UK perspective, more is being done about healthy eating in schools, and linking what you eat to health and other issues. For example the Healthy Schools programme. As part of regular lessons in primary school issues about food are discussed and taught. Food and healthy eating as a topic are included in the national curriculum as well as initiatives like Every Child Matters.

My two boys (in primary school) are given (free) fruit every day at snack time, and also milk. Annoyingly this stops after year 2 (when they are 6 or 7), as if 8 year olds suddenly don't need fruit. This is not to say that the government should be responsible for ensuring that kids have a healthy diet (they neither could nor should) - but it is part of the overall environment that they are living in, and a) guarantees that they are used to having healthy, fresh food and b) have at least some knowledge of the issues and hopefully will pass this on to parents or carers - using pester power positively!

All I'm saying is that the situation in the UK is not doom and gloom, neither however is it wildly optimistic. There needs to be a lot more genuine joined up thinking in government ranging from travel issues (how to encourage walking/cycling instead of driving), sports (not selling off school playing fields left right and centre, closing swimming pools etc), regulating advertising (especially to children) better, regulating what additives/constituents are allowed in food, what and how to tax things and so on and so forth - rather than a whole bunch of little initiatives which are underfunded and often contradicted by other bits of government policy.

Speaking for myself, my kids get sweets as a treat very occasionally, and there is no harm whatsoever in that (I have treats occasionally myself, everyone needs them) - and they certainly get their '5 a day' fruit and veg (except, again, occasionally due to special circumstances - we make sure this isn't viewed as a treat though). We also go for walks and play games with them regularly, as well as walking/scooting to school. So far they are both very healthy, and actually like fruit and veg and often choose them for a snack. (In fact Jonahlet no 2 squeals in delight at the thought of sprouts with his meal, a most rare child).

However, obviously there are many parents who are less aware or less able to act on their knowledge, so there does need to be a climate which helps people rather than hinders them. Going back to the original post, I don't think that shops handing out random advice is an effective way of doing this - but from the govt's point of view it is relatively cheap, high profile and they can simultaneously show that they are doing 'something' to those who think 'something should be done' whilst giving the Daily Mail ammunition for its 'political correctness gone mad' column.

Jonah
(Now I need some beer and chips!)
 

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Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by trebuchet:
Certainly if you go into a White Castle and then go into a Subway, you're going to see a different clientele. Part of this is money (Subway, while still cheap, is more expensive) and part of it is cultural and part of it is individual choice, and getting people to change their individual choices is going to be hard, of course.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:
I put it to you that we are making our environment such that it is harder to resist. And that this is a by-product of our individual choices.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mirrizin:
Seriously. When Gwai and I eat out, we can usually get two meals out of one portion served at most restaurants.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by comet:
the portion size thing in restaurants is huge. (pardon the pun).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gwai:

quote:

---

Originally posted by trebuchet:
Certainly if you go into a White Castle and then go into a Subway, you're going to see a different clientele. Part of this is money (Subway, while still cheap, is more expensive) and part of it is cultural and part of it is individual choice, and getting people to change their individual choices is going to be hard, of course.

---

I'd like to disagree with the assumption though. ... Why pay subway prices. It's not as if it takes that long to make a sandwich even if you toast it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laura:
Five drinks in a day is a binge and three is "problem drinking".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gwai:
What's the logic behind being disallowed from moving one's own belongings (bought food) from one place to another?

---

quote:

---

If you have more than 12 drinks a week then they start to look at how drinking affects your life to see if you're a problem drinker.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by M.:
I would regard 12 drinks a week as pretty moderate. The recommended limits over here are (I believe) 14 for a woman and 21 for a man - and most people think those are a bit of a joke (including my doctor).

M.

---

quote:

---

1 unit of alcohol=
1/2 pint beer
1 small glass wine
Source

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gwai:
What's the logic behind being disallowed from moving one's own belongings (bought food) from one place to another?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by M.:
trebuchet said,

quote:

---

If you have more than 12 drinks a week then they start to look at how drinking affects your life to see if you're a problem drinker.

---

I wonder if your drinks are bigger than ours this side of the pond, as well as your food portions?

I would regard 12 drinks a week as pretty moderate. The recommended limits over here are (I believe) 14 for a woman and 21 for a man - and most people think those are a bit of a joke (including my doctor).

M.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by C#:
So, when well-meaning busybodies hand me leaflets or offer unsolicited advice on ways to lose weight they should hardly be surprised to get an earful of abuse from me. I AM TRYING TO LOSE WEIGHT, YOU MORONS.

PS my cholesterol level and blood pressure are fine.

---

Except when people hand you weight-loss leaflets, presumably?

The trouble is that politicians (and civil servants, I accept) are always looking for quick solutions to long-term problems - it's called outcomes-based activity, apparently (focus on 'activity' rather than 'outcomes', if you ask me). It's back to the days of 'Yes, Minister' - if it's cheap, it's popular.
 

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Posted by the_raptor (# 10533) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Atheist:
BMIs? Joke. The entire All Blacks front row are classed, by BMI, as "morbidy obese"! Not bad for three blokes at the supreme peak of fitness.

---

Bad example. Excessive muscle can lead to all sorts of health problems (pumping blood through all that muscle isn't easy). And most obese people are not that heavily muscled. If you do actually have above average muscle (I do) then you can probably downgrade your BMI results a bit. Personally I rank as severely obese by the BMI, but in reality I judge it as only being obese. I don't regard the BMI as particularly precise (you can have serious weight problems and have a perfect BMI) or meaningful on its own, but it shouldn't be ignored for the average person. And is a decent rule of thumb

I have heard of body builders in the military getting in trouble for having their BMI to high. Which is an example of giving to much credence to the BMI.
 

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Posted by dogwonderer (# 12169) on :
 
I have read through this thread with interest. I work on the NHS and privately, and I have seen a shocking increase in the number of obese patients in the last twenty years. I have strong opinions on this.

The problem of increasing obesity is complex, but the implications are quite simple. If the current trend continues, the tax-funded NHS will not be able to afford treatment of obesity-related illness. This is simple fact. There is good epidemiological research to show this. So, we do have a problem.

Fat people get fat because they eat too much and don’t burn it off enough. (The numbers of people with metabolic-illness-caused obesity is really truly tiny). Obesity is not inevitable- it is a function of the choices we make with our lifestyles. Note the word choices.

It is morally doubtful that we should have the right to be obese if the resultant illness places an unsustainable burden on society.

My own feeling is that, if you choose the right to be obese, then you should pay for the costs of the burden you place on society with your illness and premature death. You should do this by Fat Tax, and private healthcare.

Cigarettes are taxed, and the revenues used for (nuclear weaponry and) healthcare. Fatty foods should be the same. If it cost you twenty quid for a plate of chips, you would probably get thin.

If you need cardiovascular surgery for the crippling angina you get from your coronary arteriosclerosis, or the pedal amputation you need because of your uncontrolled diabetes because you’re obese, then you should be obliged to pay for that out of your own pocket, not the taxpayer’s. Then you would probably get thin.

People vote with their wallets. If you price pork pies out of their pockets, they would buy broccoli and carrots instead. It’s that simple.

If we had legislation for Fat Tax and refused public-funded healthcare to obese patients (like we increasingly do for smokers), then people would have the moral right to their obesity, and all the suffering that goes with it. From my view within the NHS, this is where I think things will go in the next ten years.

The way things are otherwise going, treating all the fat people for illness caused by their obesity means we won’t have the money to treat little children with leukaemia.

Think about that when you’re eating your dinner tonight.
 

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Posted by Papio (# 4201) on :
 
Right, obesity is caused by people eating the wrong sorts of foods, because healthier food is more expensive, so the way to deal with people who can't afford posh food is to refuse to treat them on the NHS and expect them to go private?
 

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Posted by comet (# 10353) on :
 
Well said, dogwonderer (welcome to the ship, BTW - drop by All Saints and introduce yourself!)

I'm with you all the way except here:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dogwonderer:
If you need cardiovascular surgery for the crippling angina you get from your coronary arteriosclerosis, or the pedal amputation you need because of your uncontrolled diabetes because you’re obese, then you should be obliged to pay for that out of your own pocket, not the taxpayer’s. Then you would probably get thin.

---

on this side of the pond, most people (? she says with lack of any real numbers) are paying for their own health care, either out of pocket or through health insurance premiums. It's not working.

In my experience, this results in a) people not getting preventative medical care at all and their first treatment being the crash cart and ER, and b) health care premiums going further and further out the roof to where if you work for a small company, chances are you dont have insurance at all, which brings you back to scenario a.

I wish I could say making people pay their medical privately would work, but it demonstrably won't.

the $40 plate of fries would work for me, though!

re: BMI - Raptor is right. When I was in my size 7's, size 5 for UK folks, I was technically "overweight" on the BMI at 160 pounds. I looked great. I also hauled/split/wrangled/hiked etc as required for our living situation. My doctor laughed when I asked her about the BMI.

Now, I think I'm probably "shockingly obese" on the BMI or however they put it, but I'm not that much heavier than I was before. however, my components ratio has changed - i.e. zee butt she has grown.

so I give the BMI very little credence except as a starting place for the conversation. for my height, I think the BMI says my weight should be something like 115 lbs. I'd slip down the shower drain at that weight.
 

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Posted by Papio (# 4201) on :
 
I don't know, comet.

Surely, if you make unhealthy food more expensive, those with the money and who really do want the unhealthy food will just buy it anyway. Those who can no longer afford it, but can't afford healthier, more expensive food - what do they do? And what is the point of imposing financial sanctions on them?
 

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Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :
 
But comet, I rather think that if we (on our side of the pond) didn't fund the incredibly expensive things that people (understandably) want for their loved ones (like keeping vegetables alive for years) then health care wouldn't be as expensive. I predict that we have reached the practical limits of life-prolonging and that some of these more expensive treatments are going to be gradually used less and less so that we can afford some health care for more.
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio:
Right, obesity is caused by people eating the wrong sorts of foods

---

quote:

---

Fat people get fat because they eat too much and don’t burn it off enough

---

quote:

---

healthier food is more expensive

---

is simple nonsense, as any visit to a supermarket will tell you.

That said, nearly everything else that Dogbolter said is elitist cack and in the unlikely event that the scummy little troll does work for the NHS I hope they are cleaning the toilets - God forbid that such a prat should be in contact with patients.

[ 19. December 2006, 17:23: Message edited by: ken ]
 

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Posted by Papio (# 4201) on :
 
Right, so it's all to do with the amount you eat and not with what you eat, is it? Whatever.

And I didn't notice much healthy food in Nettos, Liddles and some of the other cheaper supermarkets last time i went in to them ooo about a week ago.
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gwai:
I predict that we have reached the practical limits of life-prolonging

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
That is exactly not what the godbotherer said. Its not about the "wrong sorts" of foods it is about the wrong amount of food.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio:
I don't know, comet.

Surely, if you make unhealthy food more expensive, those with the money and who really do want the unhealthy food will just buy it anyway.

---

quote:

---

Those who can no longer afford it, but can't afford healthier, more expensive food - what do they do? And what is the point of imposing financial sanctions on them?

---

quote:

---

Gwai said:But comet, I rather think that if we (on our side of the pond) didn't fund the incredibly expensive things that people (understandably) want for their loved ones (like keeping vegetables alive for years) then health care wouldn't be as expensive. I predict that we have reached the practical limits of life-prolonging and that some of these more expensive treatments are going to be gradually used less and less so that we can afford some health care for more.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by comet:
sure. and in those instances they can afford the healthcare too, theoretically.

---

quote:

---

Papio - you've got me confused: in your scenario is the healthy food or the unhealthy food more expensive? I understood dogwonderer's scenario to mean that the healthier food would be more affordable than the junk food.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio:
And I didn't notice much healthy food in Nettos, Liddles and some of the other cheaper supermarkets last time i went in to them ooo about a week ago.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio:
However, for those on very low incomes, some healthy food is not currently affordable - so should we look at ways of reducing the price of healthy food in addition to making fatty food more expensive? And could that work in practice anyway?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio:

quote:

---

Originally posted by comet:
sure. and in those instances they can afford the healthcare too, theoretically.

---

Yes. But by making rich fat people go private you give them less reason to care what happens to the NHS, which i think would be bad for the country on the grounds that it may undermine intellectual and popular support for the NHS due to people being forced to support it with their taxes, but not be able to use it. Don't you think that might cause even more resentment?

---

quote:

---

Well, it is obviously the case that is you make unhealthy food more expensive then healthy food then healthy food will be "more affordable". However, for those on very low incomes, some healthy food is not currently affordable - so should we look at ways of reducing the price of healthy food in addition to making fatty food more expensive? And could that work in practice anyway?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
You can cook an awful lot of different kinds of meal with those ingredients. That may not make for an exciting diet, but its a cheap and wholesome one.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by comet:
does the NHS pay for that? I assume it doesn't. therefore, if you have the cash flow go ahead and get your nose job, and it hurts none. but don't take up boxing, knowing you'll likely have a few broken noses, without understanding that you're on your own for the rhinoplasty.

This would not mean that if someone was hit by a truck and a radical reconstruction be necessary, the NHs would leave them to suffer

---

quote:

---

I'm pretty sure the vast majority of obesity is a choice issue.

---

quote:

---

you're attempting to hold my feet to the fire for what somebody else said.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ken
You can cook an awful lot of different kinds of meal with those ingredients. That may not make for an exciting diet, but its a cheap and wholesome one.

---

quote:

---

Orinally Posted by Olivia G
Here in North America, the reason McD's sells hamburgers for 99 cents and salads for $2.49 is because of huge government subsidies, marketing boads, and the like for particular agricultural products (meat, dairy/poultry, wheat, corn). Our own governments are drowning us in a Niagara of subsidized high-fructose corn syrup.

We created this distorted and unhealthy mess; we can uncreate it. OliviaG

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
*I do know that in Alaska and other places of similar remoteness and not-so-farminess, things tend to stay expensive.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
The secret is knowing how to cook good meals from whatever you have.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by comet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
You can cook an awful lot of different kinds of meal with those ingredients. That may not make for an exciting diet, but its a cheap and wholesome one.

---

but it can make for a very exciting menu with a few basic skills mastered and some relatively cheap spices in the cabinet.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio:
Therefore, if someone was hit by a truck, it is entirely possible that the NHS would cough up.

---

quote:

---

...unless you know a thing or two about why. I'm not saying i do and you don't. I'm saying that I don't think dogwonderer took that fully into account.

quote:

---

you're attempting to hold my feet to the fire for what somebody else said.

---

Which you have stated that you agree with.

---

So? that's like saying that because I voted for a democrat, I'd better defend everthing they have on their platform.

Papio, meet dogwonderer; dogwonderer, Papio has a few questions for you.

quote:

---

An imediate question is - how, if at all, would changes in the subsidary rates effect farmers?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio:
However, I will need to find out more about why the subsidies are given and how they are allotted before I can say much more. An imediate question is - how, if at all, would changes in the subsidary rates effect farmers?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
Not everyone has the necessary enthusiasm or energy for cooking and all that goes with it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio:
Comet - my ramblings on the NHS on this thread are mainly just ramblings. I am thinking this out as I type - so i apologise for making it look as though as though all my ramblings on the NHS were aimed at you - they weren't. Just me thinking out loud.

---

quote:

---

That said, if you were going to defend a view then others have a right to question both the view and your defence of it.

---

quote:

---

ISTM that if a person's taxes contribute to the NHS they should be entitled to use the NHS when and if they need it. If some people choose not to, that is up to them, but doesn't effect the basic principle.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by comet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
Not everyone has the necessary enthusiasm or energy for cooking and all that goes with it.

---

myself included, some days.

this is a choice. Some days I buy a pizza. Somedays I nuke something from a box. but I know this will make me fatter, and therefore I choose to make those days exceptions, not the rule.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
I think obesity - as oppossed to tubbiness - is an illness and should be treated as such

---

That word you keep using. I don't think it means what you think it means.

Medically most "fat" people are obese. Not severely, or morbidly obese, but obese nonetheless. The common usage is a bit more extreme than the medical usage.
 

---

Posted by Papio (# 4201) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by comet:
I'm not sure I agree, though. for a local equivelent - I expect the local DOT to plow the public road outside my house. this is what my public money is going for.

but I want my driveway plowed too. Does being a tax payer and voting member of the public mean I get to have my private property plowed on the public dime?

other people can opt out, but it doesn't effect the basic principle, right?

I don't think so.

(and for the record, Papio, I'm not pissed at you, just responding)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dogwonderer:
Think about that when you’re eating your dinner tonight.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
Just have to add that staying fit and healthy and thin takes effort. It does not happen naturally for most people, at least in this day and age. It takes effort to shop and cook decent food, and then you still need to exercise. There is no magic to it. It would be lovely to have some nice scissors to cut off the excess flab, but they don't exist (I used to dream about such things!). It would be nice to pop a pill that makes your heart healthy, but there is not one. At the end of the day, it still comes down to effort.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio:
In some cases, the extent of the responsibility that lies with the injured party may not be clear cut. I don't think it is ethical for lawyers and surgeons to argue the toss about whether someone should get free treatment whilst a person's life is ebbing away, and for other reasons wouldn't be happy for the NHS to cease being free at the point of use anyway.

---

I think our main difference, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that in that place of ambiguity I'm erring on the side of not paying for it and you're erring on the side of paying for it. both of us not knowing enough to be able to hammer out details.

Fair enough. I'm not a policy maker, I dont want to hammer out details.

However, I suspect in all of this there is a middle way. I could see, for instance, the NHS covering the preventative costs- free advice from a dietician; free weight monitoring; free cardiac stress-tests; and free diabetes management primary care. Hell, I'd be all for free gym memberships and even tax breaks for riding your bike to work.

that's my inner socialist talking, of course.

But after all of that being available to everyone for free, should the NHS then be responsible for those who have chosen not to take advantage of that for years and years, and therefore offer Gastric Bypass (or whatever)? should they foot the cost for the walking aids needed by someone who is morbidly obese from their own choices and behaviors?

I would say no.

on another note - I just want to add my cheer to what LATA said earlier - YES it takes a shitload of effort to maintain health and fitness. I've had to put tons more focus into it than I ever wanted to - but the LCD in our society is to live a lifestyle that makes one fat. therefore, if I dont want to be fat I need to work hard and go against the grain. it sucks. But there ya go.
 

---

Posted by Papio (# 4201) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by comet:
I think our main difference, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that in that place of ambiguity I'm erring on the side of not paying for it and you're erring on the side of paying for it. both of us not knowing enough to be able to hammer out details.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
You might be right, the raptor.

Left to Right: Tubby and obese.

At least, what I'm talking about. (but probably both obese)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gill H:
Hugal is a chef, and is very conscientious about not heating things up more than once if they have already been cooked, as it's very dangerous food-poisoning wise.

A restaurant meal may well have been prepared earlier and heated up to order, so if you take it home and heat it up next day, you could be giving yourself a nice plateful of nasties.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
It might be a hard choice, but dying of a heart attack, or having toes amputated from diabetes-related gangrene is tough too.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gwai:
Well, I hope you don't take offense at this but I fail to see why others should pay for Mr. Nui's having fun with his child.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gwai:
Well, I hope you don't take offense at this but I fail to see why others should pay for Mr. Nui's having fun with his child.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
As long as 98% of dieters regain their lost weight I don't think any of us have the answer. It's all just speculation because I'll bet no one on this thread has lost a large amount of weight and kept it off for more than five years.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Iole Nui:
And finally... I think a fat tax is highly unlikely to work.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the_raptor:
Bollocks and rubbish. Diets don't work because they are acknowledged as temporary. Many people in this thread have stated that sustained weight loss takes life style changes. Not a fucking fad diet you can do to get down to your "perfect weight".

And a few people in this thread have talked about their long term weight loss. Which you would know if you had read the fucking thread.

It isn't exactly fucking rocket science. You burn more then you consume and you lose weight. You consume more then you burn and you gain weight. That's how it works for people who don't have medical problems.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio:
I know it is possible to argue that a reduction in the tax burden would be good for the poor, but as I think you implied, to do that by removing vital services which they cannot afford to pay for privately may well not be a net gain.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MouseThief:
When you lower your caloric intake over a long period of time, YOUR BODY ADJUSTS and starts burning less.

---

Could somebody dredge up something to clarify how this works, exactly? Because my understanding is that this effect is a matter of conditioning, and the body becoming good at what you train it to do. The sticking part being that, given less fuel whilst training in a dedicated manner to sit very very still, the human body will adapt to optimize itself for the current situation.
 

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Posted by comet (# 10353) on :
 
within reason, the law of diinishing returns applies. you cannot eat less and less and less to where you are eventually gaining weight while eating nothing. Also - if you are balanced properly and moving properly, you can keep the gear "high".

further, "plateaus" which are often when people say the diet is never working were explained to me by a doc as the body essentially readjusing itselfto the new weight, and they are necessary to the weight loss to last. the AVERAGE over time is supposed to be 1-2 lbs a week. but most will loose, say, 4, then 2, then have two weeks of no weight loss, then lose 1 lb, etc.

again, as explained to me. I have yet to master this art form.
 

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Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 
Why RooK, I for one am glad to explain.


If a 150-pound woman who has a body fat composition range of 22% body fat...she will have approximately 33 pounds of fat, 86 pounds of weight composed primarily of water, 20 pounds of muscle and other lean tissue, and 11 pounds of bone and mineral weight. This total then makes up her total weight of 150 lbs.

Now take the example of another woman who weights 150 pounds, but has 30% fat on her body. She would have 45 pounds of fat on her body, 79 pounds of water, 17 pounds of muscle, and 9 pounds of bone and minerals .

Both women weight 150lbs. and are about the same height, but one looks much FATTER while one looks much LEANER.

click


If you get more body fat, your BMR goes DOWN and you get fatter eating the same calories. This could happen because you do not vary the exercise you do and your muscles get used to that particular exercise...and it is too easy for you.

So you have to spice things up in effect to keep losing with the same amount of exercise if you happen to gain some more body fat.

But if you somehow also get more muscle, you may burn up some more calories and that is very nice.

If you ask again, I might talk about PCOS. Be warned. It is Christmas and I am feeling generous, so I won't explain PCOS to you and why it affects my weight doing the same exact work outs and eating the same things. Fortunately I am not stranded like Jack Sparrow on a desert island with only some bottles of gin to suddenly be forced to lose weight and have finally a skinny ass.

Thanks. Appreciate it.



[having trouble with code & stuff. argh.]

[ 20. December 2006, 02:00: Message edited by: duchess ]
 

---

Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by comet:
within reason, the law of diinishing returns applies. you cannot eat less and less and less to where you are eventually gaining weight while eating nothing.

---

True but you can eat less and less to where you are not getting enough essential nutrients, but still are taking in too many calories to lose weight.
 

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Posted by rugasaw (# 7315) on :
 
Twilight, I think you over estimated the amount of people who regain. I found this article that says " as many as 85 percent of dieters put the weight back on within
two years after weight loss." This is an old article so the information may not be accurate.
 

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Posted by Left at the Altar (# 5077) on :
 
You know why the put weight back on? Because they stop dieting.

No one can live on "a diet" if by "a diet" you mean so low in calories that you are intended to lose weight. You just can't live like that. So people diet and get down to a certain size and then ease up a bit. And then a bit more. And then a lot. And start to put weight on. And on. And on. Because they only diet to lose weight and then go back to how it was before.

It's been said before, but it's worth saying again. The only way to get and stay thin, if you are not, is to make permanent changes to what you eat and what you do.

As Laura said, you can regard this as depressing, or you can be happy with how much better you feel.

I like nothing more than stuffing my face. I love to get really, really, really full. I'd do it every meal of every day, if it didn't mean that I put on weight. I would drink and eat until I could barely lift myself from the table to my bed to have a nice long sleep.

But, alas, I cannot.

I know this, because from just three weeks holidays in September, in which the Altar family had a ritual morning tea each and every day, I put on 2kgs. And this, despite walking long distances each day.

And so now, I am back on the proper food thing, and still walking long, long distances (actually, that's a bit of a lie, because I've been sitting around on my backside, mostly, but the last couple of days .... walk, walk, walk). So no cake unless it's a birthday party, no dessert unless it's a dinner party and lots of bloody walking.

But goddamnit, I'll fit into my clothes.

[ 20. December 2006, 05:41: Message edited by: Left at the Altar ]
 

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Posted by Persephone Hazard (# 4648) on :
 
As I think I said in my OP, I fall into the 'severely obese' category. I'm a UK size 16-18 (ish), I've always had problems with my weight, and I have a BMI somewhere in the mid-thirties. It doesn't help that I'm short (5'2"), which makes even small weight gain show. I also have a sluggishly slow metabolism, and lose weight very slowly no matter what I do.

I'm losing weight at the moment. About a pound a week. What am I doing? Surprise surprise, I'm eating less and exercising more. I'm not on a detox or Atikins or the Cabbage Soup Diet or the Three-Day Strawberry Plan or whatever the fuck else the cool kids are doing nowadays.

It's boring and it's depressing but it's the truth. Diets don't work. And I should know, I've tried them all. From Weight Watchers to the Juice Fast, I've jumped on with every fad going. And all I did for years was get fatter.
 

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Posted by Persephone Hazard (# 4648) on :
 
And yes, I'm double posting, but another rant has occured to me.

I can't stand all this 'don't make us pay for you to be treated on the NHS' bullshit. How far are you going to take this?

Obviously I'm not saying that all or even most obese people suffer from binge eating/compulsive overeating disorder. Because, you know, that would be ridiculous. But some do, and I in fact have been one of them.

Would you say that a bulimic couldn't get dentistry on the NHS if they'd rotted away all their tooth enamel? Would you say that an anorexic should go private for their sailene drip if they were so thin they could no longer walk? By that logic, why should someone with COE have to pay for their own treatment?
 

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Posted by Left at the Altar (# 5077) on :
 
I agree. If we are going to deny obese people treatment because they do things to themselves that cause harm, we have to deny smokers, drinkers, drug-addicts, althletes, drivers, people who have sex, etc etc. the same treatment.

Only Methodists will get treatment.
 

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Posted by comet (# 10353) on :
 
I need to backpedal a little bit here, because I think I've inadvertantly misrepresented my feelings on a side issue: health coverage.

when I said I agreed with dogwonderer, this is the portion of his post that I agree with:

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Originally posted by dogwonderer:
The problem of increasing obesity is complex, but the implications are quite simple. If the current trend continues, the tax-funded NHS will not be able to afford treatment of obesity-related illness. This is simple fact. There is good epidemiological research to show this. So, we do have a problem.

Fat people get fat because they eat too much and don’t burn it off enough. (The numbers of people with metabolic-illness-caused obesity is really truly tiny). Obesity is not inevitable- it is a function of the choices we make with our lifestyles. Note the word choices.

It is morally doubtful that we should have the right to be obese if the resultant illness places an unsustainable burden on society.

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My own feeling is that, if you choose the right to be obese, then you should pay for the costs of the burden you place on society with your illness and premature death. You should do this by Fat Tax, and private healthcare.

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Originally posted by Gwai:
Well, I hope you don't take offense at this but I fail to see why others should pay for Mr. Nui's having fun with his child.

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Originally posted by the_raptor:

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Originally posted by Twilight:
As long as 98% of dieters regain their lost weight I don't think any of us have the answer. It's all just speculation because I'll bet no one on this thread has lost a large amount of weight and kept it off for more than five years.

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Bollocks and rubbish. Diets don't work because they are acknowledged as temporary. Many people in this thread have stated that sustained weight loss takes life style changes. Not a fucking fad diet you can do to get down to your "perfect weight".

And a few people in this thread have talked about their long term weight loss. Which you would know if you had read the fucking thread.

It isn't exactly fucking rocket science. You burn more then you consume and you lose weight. You consume more then you burn and you gain weight. That's how it works for people who don't have medical problems. When I eat less food I lose weight. It is that fucking simple. Motivating people to stick with the life style change is the problem, not the details of said change.

The problem with diets is that people think they can get around this little fact with fuck all exercise, while eating fad food of the month.

If you have major weight changes while continuing the same regimen, then either your memory is faulty (which is common, never trust an eye witness), or you have hormone or other medical problems.

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Twilight, I think you overestimated the amount of people who regain <snip> "as many as 85% put the weight back on within two years."

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Originally posted by dogwonderer:
'Even poor fat people can peel spuds and deep fry them'...

Yes, but they don't. They buy it ready-made, Supersize, mega-fat and ultra-salty. Nobody actually makes food anymore, do they?

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Originally posted by Iole Nui:


If we could just accept that people come in different shapes and sizes, and if there weren't a raft of multi-million pound industries dependent on setting unachievable goals then making people feel shit for not meeting them, then I bet obesity would all but disappear overnight.

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I bet it wouldn't. There are far more reasons for obesity than those. In contrast, I bet dieting may reduce if the above happened...
 

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Posted by Left at the Altar (# 5077) on :
 
Indeed. We mix "beauty" (not real beauty, but that fake model look) with health. (in response to Rat)(sorry, can't stop calling you that )

We think that looking like Elle MacPherson is what we should all do. We can't and won't. The woman is a freak. A good-looking freak, but a freak, nonetheless.

Human bodies are pretty ordinary really. It's time we accepted that.

[ 20. December 2006, 11:22: Message edited by: Left at the Altar ]
 

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Posted by Left at the Altar (# 5077) on :
 

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Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

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Originally posted by dogwonderer:
'Even poor fat people can peel spuds and deep fry them'...

Yes, but they don't. They buy it ready-made, Supersize, mega-fat and ultra-salty. Nobody actually makes food anymore, do they?

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People do make food, you ignorant oaf. If the prices go up artificially, they will make even more. Please pay attention.

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Originally posted by dogwonderer:
It’s dogwonderer, BTW. As in, ‘He lay awake all night wondering of there’s a dog’. Although I rather liked 'godwaterer'...

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I am amazed that my comments have stirred such reaction, but I guess this is an emotive subject. (Congrats on a brilliant website, BTW; I think I’m hooked already). Statistically, most of you lot are probably overweight (especially you Yanks), so I guess I should have moderated my health fascism somewhat in order not to offend your guilt-inflamed sensibilities. Humble apologies for any offense caused.

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Drastic problems need drastic solutions. Whatever we know about obesity at present, and whatever we’re doing about it, it ain’t working. If you educate fat people about nutrition and exercise, they still get fatter and fatter. There is no effective medical treatment for obesity except VBG (gastric stapling). That’s all we can do. Period (for our US friends). Full stop (for my UK compatriots). Pills don’t work- sorry about that.

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The only way that society can deal with this problem is to hit people financially; everything else is ignored. Although it is clearly fascism (and sadly unrealistic), if ‘bad food’ were taxed out of our reach, we would have to eat ‘good food’. This is already happening with tobacco (except that everyone gets their mates to pick up a couple of zillion cheap ciggies for them when they go to Spain). Fags here are getting so expensive people are obliged to cut down- I know this for certain.

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As for healthcare- well, the sums speak for themselves. All the predictions show that obesity will become unaffordable- and soon. Simple as that, really. There is only so much money available for all doctors to have to share out. The moral argument seems straightforward to me, if we apply a little parsimony here: fat people should pay for the illness they inflict upon themselves by eating too much and sitting on their flab all day. (BTW, please note- the term moral argument). Otherwise we won’t have enough money to cure people with cancer which is not their fault. I know it’s unpleasant, but it is the truth.

How the hell else can we sort this out?

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Why should my skinny, 87 year old father-in-law pay high prices for his chocolate bars just because you've put them on your bad list.
Olive oil is high caloried but raises good cholesterol. Peanut butter is very dense calorically but it is a good source of protein for vegetarians. Eggs are bad for some people and good for others. Are you going to tax hamburger meat but not fish?

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How the hell else can we sort this out?

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Originally posted by dogwonderer:
How the hell else can we sort this out?

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Originally posted by dogwonderer:
In the UK, people were at their historical all-time 'healthiest' during rationing following the War, in the fifties.

Work that one out.

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Originally posted by Twilight:
What changed is that people started going on strict diets and staying on them for long periods of time. Doing this, particularly if you are still in your teens, causes permanent changes to your fat cells, metabolism and the appetite centers in the brain.

Put a 115 pound 15 year old girl on a diet and she will probably have a weight problem for life. She will rebound with a craving for high fat foods and will probably gain up to about 130. She'll diet again, and so on. This has been shown to be true in lots of studies.

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Originally posted by dogwonderer:
In the UK, people were at their historical all-time 'healthiest' during rationing following the War, in the fifties.

Work that one out.

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Originally posted by Twilight:
and for the most part we would just shut up about it and let our bodies find their natural weight.

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This is also idiotic. Your body doesn't have a natural weight. Your body is designed to crave lots of bad food because historically you needed those to survive. You needed to fatten up for the times of famine. As we are in perpetual feast most people will become obese unless they fight their bodies "natural" desires.

I can probably eat 2-3x the amount of food that is needed to make me feel full, because I have been over eating for so long that my brain equates "stuffed" with "full" (I can easily eat to the point of it being physically impossible for me to eat more food. And not feel ill). And feeling stuffed makes my brain very happy.
 

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Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
The trick is not for the body to find its natural weight; but for the hand with the Mars Bar in it to find its way to the mouth a little less often .
 

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Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 

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Originally posted by the_raptor:

quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:
What changed is that people started going on strict diets and staying on them for long periods of time. Doing this, particularly if you are still in your teens, causes permanent changes to your fat cells, metabolism and the appetite centers in the brain.

Put a 115 pound 15 year old girl on a diet and she will probably have a weight problem for life. She will rebound with a craving for high fat foods and will probably gain up to about 130. She'll diet again, and so on. This has been shown to be true in lots of studies.

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I have never heard of studies showing that. I have seen ones showing that yo-yo dieting leads to long term weight gain. What you are describing could just mean that people who get obese have problems sticking to diets.

I also I dare you to provide evidence that significant numbers of young people have begun dieting at a young age. And that those numbers match the increase in obesity. I know that none of the obese kids at my school were on a diet, and there where more then would have been there in the 1950's (my school has class photos going back to the 30's).

Frankly I think you are talking out of your ass.

People naturally have a craving for high fat/sugar/salt foods. The difference was that in the 1950's they still weren't as accessible as they are today. There has been a massive increase since then in fat/sugar/salt content and various artificial sweeteners.

And even then, no one in this fucking thread has recommended fad dieting. Crash dieting is a bad idea because it is hard to stick to.

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Originally posted by MouseThief:
When you lower your caloric intake over a long period of time, YOUR BODY ADJUSTS and starts burning less. To maintain the same weight you have to lower it more. If you're unlucky enough to have the wrong kind of metabolism, eventually you're starving yourself and still gaining weight. Our bodies are designed to gain weight when calories are available. Trying to short-circuit this leads to problems.

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Originally posted by dogwonderer:
'Ah yes, the healthiest period in which, amongst other things, 4,000 died in the 1952 smog. Had they better nourished a substantial number would have survived. But they would probably have got TB, the prevalence of which concealed the extent of lung cancer'.

Oh yeah- those 4,000 people would not have died if they'd been obese!

People were better nourished in the 50s than they are today. This is indisputable.

There is a common lay misconception that thin people are more likely to perish than fat people. This is nonsense.

Obesity kills. Suck it and see.

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Originally posted by Left at the Altar:
You know why the put weight back on? Because they stop dieting.

No one can live on "a diet" if by "a diet" you mean so low in calories that you are intended to lose weight. You just can't live like that. So people diet and get down to a certain size and then ease up a bit. And then a bit more. And then a lot. And start to put weight on. And on. And on. Because they only diet to lose weight and then go back to how it was before.

It's been said before, but it's worth saying again. The only way to get and stay thin, if you are not, is to make permanent changes to what you eat and what you do.

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Originally posted by dogwonderer:
People were better nourished in the 50s than they are today. This is indisputable.

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There is a common lay misconception that thin people are more likely to perish than fat people. This is nonsense.

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Originally posted by Twilight:

I never said that the 1950's were a healthy period, just that the average weight was lower and we weren't dieting or exercising as much as we are now,

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Originally posted by ken:

quote:

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Originally posted by dogwonderer:
People were better nourished in the 50s than they are today. This is indisputable.

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No it isn't. It is both disputable and disputed.

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Originally posted by rugasaw:
Speaking from the fat capitol of the USA (Houston, Texas), Here there is no tax on groceries. There is tax on chips, soda, all restraunt food (including fast food), and oh yes candy bars. Yet we in the Houston area are considered to be the fattest* city in the US. I guess just taxing bad food and not taxing good food is not the answer. I suspect education is probably the best way to go.

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Originally posted by comet:
back to the point - I wonder how much the advent of of home computer game consoles are also to blame. I say this because the chubby kids in my kids' schools tend to be the ones who's parents buy them lots of PS-whatevers, and have satTV, and buy them snowmachines instead of skis, and basically purchasepurchasepurchase anything the kids want.

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Originally posted by RuthW:
I don't think you've presented evidence that taxes aren't at least part of the answer.

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Originally posted by the_raptor:
I think that cigarette and liquor taxes haven't worked in any significant way (and I was reading the other day about someone pointing out the tax to be gained if marijuana was legalized, apparently it is Americas number one cash crop).

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Originally posted by the_raptor:

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Originally posted by RuthW:
I don't think you've presented evidence that taxes aren't at least part of the answer.

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Taxes are to easy an answer for politicians in my opinion. Especially as if they generate a significant income, their is actually a disincentive for the government to significantly reduce consumption of the product which is taxed.

I think that cigarette and liquor taxes haven't worked in any significant way (and I was reading the other day about someone pointing out the tax to be gained if marijuana was legalized, apparently it is Americas number one cash crop).

A much simpler way to reduce consumption of "bad" fats and sweeteners, is to just regulate the food industry.

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Originally posted by the_raptor:
(and I was reading the other day about someone pointing out the tax to be gained if marijuana was legalized, apparently it is Americas number one cash crop).

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Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
... People still smoke and those who do are the hard core who will, IMO, always smoke. Even if it is made illegal.

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Originally posted by RuthW:

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Originally posted by MouseThief:
When you lower your caloric intake over a long period of time, YOUR BODY ADJUSTS and starts burning less. To maintain the same weight you have to lower it more. If you're unlucky enough to have the wrong kind of metabolism, eventually you're starving yourself and still gaining weight. Our bodies are designed to gain weight when calories are available. Trying to short-circuit this leads to problems.

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That's why you have to EXERCISE, too -- it keeps your metabolism from slowing down.

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Originally posted by RuthW:

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Originally posted by the_raptor:
I think that cigarette and liquor taxes haven't worked in any significant way (and I was reading the other day about someone pointing out the tax to be gained if marijuana was legalized, apparently it is Americas number one cash crop).

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Taxes do reduce tobacco use: see reports of actual studies. So much better than uninformed opinion, don't you think?

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Originally posted by RuthW:
No one ever claimed taxation would eliminate tobacco use entirely, Sioni Sais. Some people will pay the price, however high it is. But the fact remains that taxing tobacco does reduce the number of people using it. Young people are particularly sensitive to price, and that's extremely important, and people who don't start smoking when they're young are not likely to take it up later in life.

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Originally posted by Twilight:
Speaking of actual studies. This article explains that it would take a man 6 months of intense weight lifting to gain about 4 pounds of muscle. (Women less.) This four pounds would then raise the metabolism to the point of burning -- wait for it -- 24 extra calories a day.

This is a perfect example of why everyone on this thread is right -- to some degree.
I read an excellent book by science writer Gina Kolata called Ultimate Fitness. In it she explains why we all go around believing things like "exercise speeds up metabolism" and "fat makes us fat." It's all true to some slight degree but the publishers of magazines and diet books have been taking these bits of health "facts" and stretching them out of porportion so that they'll have a new theory for the latest article or book.

So yes, exercise does speed metabolism. Just not so you'd notice.

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• Not enough sleep - if you plot the decline in average number of hours slept against increase in obesity you get matching curves. It's thought to be caused by sleep loss altering "the ability of leptin and ghrelin to accurately signal caloric need"
• Climate control our metabolic rates adapt to the temperature by sweating or shivering - central heating removes this energy burner
• Less smoking big link to increase in obesity and reduction in smoking in US
• Prenatal effects or what happens in the womb/genetic effects
• "Fat = Fecund" Heavier people have more children
• age adults between 40 to 79 are three times as likely to be obese as younger people
• More drugs antihistamines, neuroleptics, anticonvulsants, antihypertensives, HIV and diabetes medications, beta blockers and the contraceptive pill all are linked to weight gain.
• Pollution some of the chemical pollutants are known to lead to weight gain
• Mature mums having an older mother is a risk for obesity
• Like marrying like so larger people marry larger people, linked to genetic propensity to be overweight, a tendency to produce more children and the prenatal effects ...

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Originally posted by rugasaw:
Also, how are children suppose to learn good cooking skills at home when they don't leave from school until after 5pm? Some parents work all hours of the day and night as well as being single parents. Some of parents of my students are more worried about keeping there kids drug free than fat free. There are no easy answers. It will take alot of dedication from alot of people.

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Originally posted by Twilight:

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Originally posted by RuthW:
That's why you have to EXERCISE, too -- it keeps your metabolism from slowing down.

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Speaking of actual studies. This article explains that it would take a man 6 months of intense weight lifting to gain about 4 pounds of muscle. (Women less.) This four pounds would then raise the metabolism to the point of burning -- wait for it -- 24 extra calories a day.

...

So yes, exercise does speed metabolism. Just not so you'd notice.

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If you think you can just tax the fat out of the people you are wrong.

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Originally posted by ananke:
The societal obsession with visual judgement is horrific.

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Originally posted by Laura:

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Originally posted by rugasaw:
Also, how are children suppose to learn good cooking skills at home when they don't leave from school until after 5pm? Some parents work all hours of the day and night as well as being single parents. Some of parents of my students are more worried about keeping there kids drug free than fat free. There are no easy answers. It will take alot of dedication from alot of people.

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For the last time, it isn't working parents that make kids fat. But cooking at home rather than carry out and eating all at the table together are associated with better fitness. My kids learn to cook as I cook, by my side, at breakfast and dinner. They eat lunch at school, which they pack themselves or with some help.

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Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
According to an article in the New Scientist

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[*]"Fat = Fecund" Heavier people have more children
[...][*]Like marrying like so larger people marry larger people, linked to genetic propensity to be overweight, a tendency to produce more children and the prenatal effects ...
[/list]

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In other words being fat is a selective advantage. Think of it as evolution in action.
 

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Posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege (# 10651) on :
 
exactly. I am designed to survive the next Ice Age...
 

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Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
I finally decided that the reason I don't find men with no body fat very attractive is I have an atavistic conviction that they won't make it through the winter. If I ever got hooked up with one, I'm afraid that a few weeks past the winter solstice I'd be dragging his emaciated corpse out of my cave.
 

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Posted by rugasaw (# 7315) on :
 
From all the males with more than zero body fat a great big thank you.
 

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Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
Well of course it's a big thank you! (Sorry, couldn't resist. )
 

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Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 
I don't really care if a guy is fat/skinny as long as he is tall and the most important thing...he really likes to eat. If he enjoys seeing me stuff my face too and has no hang ups about my chowing down, even better. We will be love birds.

See...fat means = more to love
skinny means = more to push food on him

a win win situation.

tallness is just my own personal hang up.
 

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Posted by Corpus cani (# 1663) on :
 
I'm tall!

Cc
 

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Posted by Laura (# 10) on :
 

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Ori***ally posted by RuthW:
I finally decided that the reason I don't find men with no body fat very attractive is I have an atavistic conviction that they won't make it through the winter. If I ever got hooked up with one, I'm afraid that a few weeks past the winter solstice I'd be drag***g his emaciated corpse out of my cave.

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What the Hell were you planning on doing to him in that cave?

[ 22. December 2006, 17:58: Message edited by: Laura ]
 

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Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
Nothing I'm going to tell the whole world on the internet!
 

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Posted by comet (# 10353) on :
 

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Originally posted by Laura:

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Ori***ally posted by RuthW:
If I ever got hooked up with one, I'm afraid that a few weeks past the winter solstice I'd be drag***g his emaciated corpse out of my cave.

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What the Hell were you planning on doing to him in that cave?

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Originally posted by Corpus cani:
I'm tall!

Cc

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Originally posted by AdamPater:
Yep, diabetes and heart disease are a hoot.

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Originally posted by Iole Nui:

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Originally posted by AdamPater:
Yep, diabetes and heart disease are a hoot.

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Yes, because all the other ways of dying are so positively cheery.

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Originally posted by RuthW:
Some are a lot better than heart disease and the complications of diabetes. One of my grandmothers died at 93 simply of being old. That would be just fine with me.

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Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Never trust a skinny cook.

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Pax Romana
 

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Posted by AdamPater (# 4431) on :
 

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Originally posted by Iole Nui:

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Originally posted by AdamPater:
Yep, diabetes and heart disease are a hoot.

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Yes, because all the other ways of dying are so positively cheery.

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Originally posted by RuthW:
Nothing I'm going to tell the whole world on the internet!

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Well, if you're going through rafts of men, a la comet's suggestion, it'd be a great way to keep your weight down, I would think!

Anyway, genetics of course affect things, but it seems that one's lifestyle choices can make a difference. But of course, you could get hit by a bus.

[ 27. December 2006, 21:41: Message edited by: Laura ]
 

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Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 

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Originally posted by Laura:

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Originally posted by RuthW:
Nothing I'm going to tell the whole world on the internet!

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Well, if you're going through rafts of men, a la comet's suggestion, it'd be a great way to keep your weight down, I would think!

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Anyway, genetics of course affect things, but it seems that one's lifestyle choices can make a difference. But of course, you could get hit by a bus.

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If I could be assured of dying instantly, and if it weren't so awful for everyone else involved, I wouldn't mind this.
 

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Posted by Mostly Noble Pixels (# 8783) on :
 
Me! Me! Me!
I volunteer to drive the bus!
I volunteer to drive the bus!
Please, may I?

If I am chosen for this honour, may I video-tape the incident and post it in The Circus in order to begin a wonderful new game?
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
Posted by AdamPater:

quote:

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But not nearly so simply avoidable (modulo family history).

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Not avoidable. Merely ... slightly postponable.
 

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Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
To Mostly Noble Pixels:

Are you mad? If you go driving busses into fat people, you'll get whiplash something terrible!

(ETA context)

[ 27. December 2006, 22:54: Message edited by: MouseThief ]
 

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Posted by AdamPater (# 4431) on :
 
But RuthW isn't fat: she's been working out with her... "team". I'm sure driving a bus into her (or, indeed, her into a bus) would be most satisfying for all concerned.
 

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Posted by Mostly Noble Pixels (# 8783) on :
 
Originally posted by MouseThief:
Are you mad? If you go driving busses into fat people, you'll get whiplash something terrible!

But, MouseThief, it has to be a bus.
After all, a train has a cowcatcher on the front, and that would shove the fatso aside and ruin the whole effect.

[ 28. December 2006, 02:19: Message edited by: Mostly Noble Pixels ]
 

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Posted by Gort (# 6855) on :
 
Ha ha ha ha! You crack me up, Crackers! Hah ha ha!
 

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Posted by Mostly Noble Pixels (# 8783) on :
 

That was most unkind, Gort.
Why can't we all just get along?
Twat in the moon of wintertime when other turds had fled!
 

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Posted by Izzybee (# 10931) on :
 

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Originally posted by Laura:

quote:

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Originally posted by RuthW:
Nothing I'm going to tell the whole world on the internet!

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Well, if you're going through rafts of men, a la comet's suggestion, it'd be a great way to keep your weight down, I would think!

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I can see it now. The "M" Plan. Sign me up
 

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Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 
There are a lot of menz in Alaska come to think of it. Lots of menz. get busy!
 

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Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 

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Originally posted by Izzybee:

quote:

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Originally posted by Laura:

quote:

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Originally posted by RuthW:
Nothing I'm going to tell the whole world on the internet!

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Well, if you're going through rafts of men, a la comet's suggestion, it'd be a great way to keep your weight down, I would think!

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I can see it now. The "M" Plan. Sign me up

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Originally posted by Firenze:
The F Plan, surely?

---

I thought there was already one of those - I thought there was finally a plan for me until I read the book and realised that the "F" they were talking about wasn't the "F" I was thinking about.

[etited for coding "f"-up]

[ 28. December 2006, 16:44: Message edited by: Izzybee ]
 

---

Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 
You all are a bunch of seeck beetches. F-plan indeed. It is the ML plan, the Bruce Campbell Way.

Sheesh.

[eta: please tell me one person has suffered through that book besides me. Thank you.]

[ 28. December 2006, 17:53: Message edited by: duchess ]
 

---

Posted by Gort (# 6855) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mostly Noble Pixels:

That was most unkind, Gort.
Why can't we all just get along?
Twat in the moon of wintertime when other turds had fled!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sarkycow:
Are you like a crazy person, Gort?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gort:
within said Hell-call, I am not only suspended for two weeks but suffer the humiliation of having to shut down my personal shipmates' photo website under threat of my internet service provider being sued

---

Speaking as the admin who did the suspending, I want to make it completely clear that your suspension was a result of your own actions and your own poor judgment. I thought that you had chosen to accept your personal responsibility for that episode?

Scot
Member Admin
 

---

Posted by Gort (# 6855) on :
 
Yes, you are correct, Scot. I apologize for including that in my rant.

Sarky: Don't make me send my clone army of flying monkeys after you.
 

---

Posted by Mostly Noble Pixels (# 8783) on :
 
Ummmm - Gort?
Have you considered heading down to Daytona Bike Week which runs from March 2-11th?
You could stroll along snow-white beaches, watch the dolphins leap, watch the Harley motorcyles leap, maybe pop a valium or two...

For what it is worth, I regret that your suspension ever happened, but I personally played absolutely no part in it.
You and another shippie were on a tangent, and things simply got away on you.

Speaking of tangents, what are you doing on this thread, since, looking at your photo in your gallery, you do not appear to be overly fat?
Now, I could stand to lose some weight, but am mostly here to try to run over someone with a bus.
After all, Marvin told me to fuck off; the first part of his instruction was fairly simple to carry out, but finding someone to "off" has been a bit more difficult. Are you, perhaps, volunteering?

Happy New Year, Gort; I think maybe I will go spend some time under my bridge wit the Three Billy Goats Gruff, to give you a chance to calm down a tiny wee bit.
 

---

Posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege (# 10651) on :
 
And here I was, just enjoying comet's complaint about flimsy men... "These men. so flimsy. I go through gobs of them every year..." (what does one DO with a flimsy man, anyway?! ).
 

---

Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 
Bad things always happen after I mention Bruce Campbell's [edited out title] piece o' crap book.

[ 30. December 2006, 03:49: Message edited by: duchess ]
 

---

Posted by comet (# 10353) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
what does one DO with a flimsy man, anyway?!

---

oh lots of things. but not very much or they break. it's tragic, really.
 

---

Posted by grushi (# 11938) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by comet:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege:
what does one DO with a flimsy man, anyway?!

---

oh lots of things. but not very much or they break. it's tragic, really.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Janine:
OK, what else were we talking about, then?

Frail men?

---

quote:

---

I wonder how things work out when really whipcord-thin men have a preference for chunky round women? If we all got on the Fit & Trim bandwagon, what would all the chubby-chasers do?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Janine:
Can we get back to Gort's throbbing cock, please?

---

Kelly, I hate to disagree (in Hell, of all places) but frail men do not make good bookmarks: despite their frailty they're still too lumpy and they end up damaging the spine.

I never went for skinny guys, but I had a lovely collection of beautifully muscled athletic types (gymnasts & bicyclists, mostly), back in the day. 2nd husband was definitely against type - he was chunky and hairy AND he turned out to be a bastard, so there you go-- that's a hell thread for you.

RooK, I pose no danger now, but when I was slim-ish I had lethal hips; when I was at my best weight visually I inflicted bruises on my partner... *sigh*... he only complained a little. And then an extra 10 pounds and voila! - I was once again safe to ride...
 

---

Posted by comet (# 10353) on :
 
what happened to this conversation?

Gort's chicken is throbbing, we're sticking skinny guys in books, and Lynn is a Harley.
 

---

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by comet:
what happened to this conversation?

Gort's chicken is throbbing, we're sticking skinny guys in books, and Lynn is a Harley.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:
We need to get back to the loving accusations that YOU PERSONALLY are killing yourself/ monopolising all available healthcare to the detriment of sickly orphans/ causing global warming/ depleting the ozone layer/ making bad things happen to Africa/ and being DIRECTLY responsible for the First Crusade and all that lead to.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Janine, I have met you in person, and I can safely say that any guy who doesn't experience a testosterone rush at the first flash of your eyes simply has a funcional problem.

I want to hear from all those guys on Dating Threads past who sung all these hymns of praises to the ample woman. Why are you guys kicking back and letting RooK have the last word on who is sexy, and who should be converted?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I want to hear from all those guys on Dating Threads past who sung all these hymns of praises to the ample woman. Why are you guys kicking back and letting RooK have the last word on who is sexy, and who should be converted?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:

Indeed, I suspect that most who proclaim to have high regard for blobular shapes are going to have a pretty high correlation with those who have little hope of attracting anything else. It's a self-selecting set of dubious objectivity.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:
Indeed, I suspect that most who proclaim to have high regard for blobular shapes are going to have a pretty high correlation with those who have little hope of attracting anything else. It's a self-selecting set of dubious objectivity.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
There is "blobular" and there is "lithe" and somewhere in between a lot of sexy women. Certainly, many more than think they are.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by duchess:
I just hope Gort does not lure you into describing sex in hell otherwise I am out of here for awhile. My puritan uptight white girl sensibilites just can't stand it. thx.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Iole Nui:
Gosh, that really is a masterpiece of the how to insult the greatest number of people using the fewest number of words school of communication.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by duchess:

And yes, a very fit man himself, who did not hold my blubberous carnal carbon form against me.

---

quote:

---

[eta: dang, these buttered buns are good.]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:
You're just saying that because you're ugly, right?

---

quote:

---

Because that opinion of mine could use some refining. It's based on the general observation that humans tend to self-sort and associate with what they seem to consider to be others of similar status. However that status tends to be socially (read: somewhat arbitrarily) ranked at the time.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Iole Nui:
Who some men secretly want to have sex with might have little to do with who they want to be seen with.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Iole Nui:
Where your theory falls down, I think, is that social association depends on loads more factors than simple sexual attraction.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Iole Nui:

Yer. Not as ugly as my husband, though.

---

quote:

---

After all, plenty of men (in my experience) have affairs with women who are plumper than their wives, or patronise podgy prostitutes, who don't want for clients by all accounts. Both of those could be said to have far more to do with raw sexual attraction than permanent relationships do. Who some men secretly want to have sex with might have little to do with who they want to be seen with.

---

quote:

---

...because that's going to absurdly underestimate open-minded peoples interactions.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
Rook: So how do you account for men whose weight is healthy who are sexually attracted to fat women?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:
Is it just me, or am I standing on a narrow ledge?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:
[ I'm not try to assert any sort of perceived law or requirement, merely an observed strong tendency of the majority.

Is it just me, or am I standing on a narrow ledge?

---

Maybe the minority in the case of 'zaftique' people is not as "fringe" as you think. Maybe it's more like men who have a thing for girls with a gap in their teeth, or guys who like short- haired girls, Or (using me) girls who have thing for tenor men, or short guys.

In other words, maybe it's not a fetish but a simple preference. Why is that such a wild idea?

Having said all that, there is a grain of truth in what you say, as I have met the kind of person who is secretly attracted to people nearer the common standard of beauty, but will settle for hanging out with you because they feel they can do no better-- because of thier own self image. They usually end up reminding you of this frequently, in one way or another.

I'm learning to smell them and avoid them, because, dammit, I want to hang out with somebody who actually thinks I really am the best they can do. So bring on your open-minded folk.

[ 01. January 2007, 19:00: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
 

---

Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 
I kind of see it like this...in my job, I sell software that has some huge competition. Better known products, more sexy....better marketing $$$ than mine.

But I still manage to find people who want to go with my product.

There is a lot of business out there, just waiting to be found.

Same thing about men. The majority of them may well be attracted to women, thinner, younger, prettier etc than me.

But there is that percentage that is attracted to me for whatever reason. And all I need is one.

<Is he dead yet? Nope? Good...um, he is sort of useful and we need him back here to be host...throws rope...>
 

---

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
Kelly: You like tenors? That's sick, I tell you, just sick.



RooK: My guess is that the men who like really, really fat women are, as you say, the statistical fringe. But I think the men who like the more in-between women, neither obese nor buff, are pretty normal and rather more plentiful than one would think from looking at the images of women in the mass media.
 

---

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I have met the kind of person who is secretly attracted to people nearer the common standard of beauty, but will settle for hanging out with you because they feel they can do no better-- because of thier own self image. (snip)

I'm learning to smell them and avoid them, because, dammit, I want to hang out with somebody who actually thinks I really am the best they can do.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
Kelly: You like tenors? That's sick, I tell you, just sick.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Or do you mean you're looking for someone who thinks you're the best there is? Coz that's a very different thing indeed...

---

Yeah, I phrased it arrogantly. To put it more humbly: I'm looking for someone who does actually enjoy and delight in me, rather than simply settles for me.

[ 01. January 2007, 19:37: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
 

---

Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Maybe the minority in the case of 'zaftique' people is not as "fringe" as you think.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Maybe the minority in the case of 'zaftique' people is not as "fringe" as you think.

---

Maybe my understanding of zaftig is confused, but I certainly wouldn't classify that as unhealthy or unattractive. Full bosoms, rounded hips, and lots of curves are what healthy adult females often look like. Despite what fashion sources try to insist.

Further, it seems likely to me that humans are instinctively predisposed to sexually idealize the forms we take when we're aged 18-24. So it appears to be quite likely that we're all potentially a bit conflicted with regard to sexual image when we get much past that age.

Thanks to Kelly and duchess, who both seem willing to take my expressed opinions with charity about me personally.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:
Full bosoms, rounded hips, and lots of curves are what healthy adult females often look like.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:


Thanks to Kelly and duchess, who both seem willing to take my expressed opinions with charity about me personally.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Iole Nui:
Well, given that we both live in cultures where that sort of figure would routinely be described as fat, perhaps you should have been more specific in your original statement.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Or do you mean you're looking for someone who thinks you're the best there is? Coz that's a very different thing indeed...

---

Yeah, I phrased it arrogantly. To put it more humbly: I'm looking for someone who does actually enjoy and delight in me, rather than simply settles for me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:
Nevertheless, regardless of how ridiculously anorexic much of the cultural media insists is the ideal, I still argue that when weight starts affecting apparent health it simultaneously affects physical attractiveness. For most people, most of the time, when considering physique exclusively (however unrealistic that is in practice).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:
...

Nevertheless, regardless of how ridiculously anorexic much of the cultural media insists is the ideal, I still argue that when weight starts affecting apparent health it simultaneously affects physical attractiveness. For most people, most of the time, when considering physique exclusively (however unrealistic that is in practice).

---

quote:

---

think I've paid the price in terms of the subsequent tap-dancing I've had to do...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by duchess:
Looking at the preferences of our black brothas...Latin brothas, Southern brothas, Middle-Eastern brothas & Eastern-European brothas, even this statement is open for interpetation on different levels, than say a white brotha from the West-Coast.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Iole Nui:
I don't routinely hear men who fancy very skinny women compared to coprophiliacs.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by samara:
You know, I can't think of any instance of men fancying very skinny women. Certainly that's what is pushed by the fashion industry, women's magazines, whatever. But I have never heard (or can't remember): "I'd rather have sex with a stick-thin woman." or "She's so skinny, that's hot." Healthy, fit, thin, yes. But never very skinny.

---

The only person I can remember expressing a preference for skinny in so many words, was, oddly enough, Donald Sutherland (Keifer's dad). I have no idea why I remember that!

But I've worked a lot with groups of young single men, and listened to a lot of locker room type chat over the office cubicle wall. Castigation, in the coarsest of sexual terms, of any woman with an ounce of flesh on her in my experience comes a close second to crude homophobia as a conversational topic*. Both a million miles from the sentiments expressed by the same boys in private conversation away from the pack.

And does anybody remember the outright personal viciousness directed at Amber Benson ('fat' Tara)when she joined Buffy, not by the media but by fans. She claims that at the time her doctor already considered her to be medically underweight.

In a society where perceptions of body image are so royally screwed up, terms like skinny, fit, thin and healthy have really lost any meaning - see RooK's earlier use of 'fat' and the confusion that ensued.

I'm really not bothered about individual preferences, to which people are entitled. What's irritating me is RooK's apparent attempt to dress up a culturally specific trend as a universal truth.

* when they're not talking about football, obviously
 

---

Posted by ananke (# 10059) on :
 
I think we need to remember that the maximum healthy waist circumference for a woman is approximately the same circumference as the average model's bust/hips.

I'm rather curious as to the sexual acrobatic difference between thin and lardo...not a damn thing has changed for me over the 30kg gain since I started.
 

---

Posted by Sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 
Just to add more confusion....

In evolutionary terms, people are looking for a sexually/reproductively healthy partner. And it's not weight that people subconsciously judge this on, it's body proportions. For women the ideal proportion is a ratio of 0.7 waist to hips (i.e. your waist measurement is around 70% or your hips measurement). For men it's higher - around 0.85 or 0.9.

Somewhat interesting article about waist-to-hip ratios.

Can't pull the actual studies etc., because my books are not in the same place as me, currently

So attractiveness is not solely dependent on weight but also on proportions - up to a certain weight, you'll be more attractive if you have an hourglass figure (if you're female) rather than going straight up and down

Sarkycow
 

---

Posted by Jonah the Whale (# 1244) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sarkycow:
up to a certain weight, you'll be more attractive if you have an hourglass figure (if you're female) rather than going straight up and down

---

quote:

---

mustelid-loving

---

mean?
 

---

Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 
Hey, just got sis on the yahoo...

"Mustelids are weasels...the whole weasel family of animals"

(My sister loves ferrets, I guess this includes them...)

eta: rugasaw, I had forgotten how filthy that song was! Shame on me! Argh. Ah, but thx for the tribute.
It took me back in time. To the early 90s.

[ 02. January 2007, 22:13: Message edited by: duchess ]
 

---

Posted by KenWritez (# 3238) on :
 
FWIW, having met duchess and Kelly, their physiques enhanced their attractiveness but did not form the whole of it. What was inside was more important.

[ 02. January 2007, 22:27: Message edited by: KenWritez ]
 

---

Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
Weasel love. To some, it's a beautiful thing. Who are we to judge people on their hobbies?
 

---

Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 
Um better than muskrat luv.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by KenWritez:
FWIW, having met duchess and Kelly, their physiques enhanced their attractiveness but did not form the whole of it. What was inside was more important.

---

Right back at you Ken.

Even if I have work to do on my outsides, I hope that they will always be the least attractive thing about me.
 

---

Posted by Gort (# 6855) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by KenWritez:
FWIW, having met duchess and Kelly, their physiques enhanced their attractiveness but did not form the whole of it. What was inside was more important.

---

I've also met them both but never suspected that the quality of their ribs, tenderloin or brisket could outweigh their physical attractiveness. Although I haven't your unique expertise in culinary discrimination, I'm always willing to be enlightened.
 

---

Posted by Emma. (# 3571) on :
 
Kelly is one gorgeous girly
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by duchess:

eta: rugasaw, I had forgotten how filthy that song was! Shame on me! Argh. Ah, but thx for the tribute.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gill H:
Surely the 'Baby Got Book' version would be more appropriate for Duchess.

I like big Bibles and I cannot lie ...

---

Well there is this...
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Duch, you rock.
 

---

Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Duch, you rock.

---

Thanks Kelly. I'll keep it up for maybe a week but then will replace it was something more humble.

BTW, the big bible video is up on my blog. click!
 

---

Posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege (# 10651) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Iole Nui:
Well, given that we both live in cultures where that sort of figure would routinely be described as fat, perhaps you should have been more specific in your original statement.

---

Perhaps, and I think I've paid the price in terms of the subsequent tap-dancing I've had to do.

Nevertheless, regardless of how ridiculously anorexic much of the cultural media insists is the ideal, I still argue that when weight starts affecting apparent health it simultaneously affects physical attractiveness. For most people, most of the time, when considering physique exclusively (however unrealistic that is in practice).

---

Have you seen Monster House? I won't say more, not wanting to do spoilers, but it's relevant to this thread and this post in particular...

Duchess, your friend who tells you how hard it is being a really attractive woman is NOT a really attractive woman; she's a jerk. I've known several of those, the I'm going to use my model-looks to intimidate you because, in fact, you intimidate ME! bleah. You're better off w/o her friendship (unless you like a person like that to run "interference" for you - this can be useful, in fact) because, clearly, her outsides are the most attractive thing about her - and that don't last.
 

---

Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 
It is amazing how transparent people are and how they don't seem to realise that they are.

She is plenty boring. Much prettier than I will ever be. But oh so boring, it hurts.

Self-absorbed people often are pretty...and pretty boring.
 

---

Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
I imagine that Persephone is supposed to either walk the streets naked or wrap herself in a sheet, considering that any attempt to buy clothing will be taken for her being deluded and thinking she is a size 4.

I do hope that sales assistants have enough intelligence to realise (as those Perspephone mentioned do not) that the obese size 14 who just walked into the store used to be a size 28. She's been in slimming programmes for years, and cannot remember the last time she either had a decent meal or did anything in the evening other than going to a gym. She's had to constantly reduce intake through the years, just not to gain back what she's lost. She's trying desperately to pretend that all that matters is better 'heart health,' but still does wish she were svelte. (Of course, she may have lost massive amounts of weight by getting away from 'healthy' pasta and the like, but that does not matter either.)
 

---

Posted by Leetle Masha (# 8209) on :
 
Newman's Own, please pray for the poor old soul who can no longer smile because of a cracked lip due to the absence of all fats (that might soften dry skin) in the diet.

Unfortunately I now know quite a number of people who have become, over the years, quite skinny and flabby, but they can't smile.... alas. All dried up and wrinkled like an old prune. Faces like cubist paintings.

M
feeling impelled to drink canola oil right out of the bottle!

[ 05. January 2007, 14:58: Message edited by: Leetle Masha ]
 

---

Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 
Well, this is what is considered is sexy now...
 

---

Posted by Leetle Masha (# 8209) on :
 
Song of Songs [Solomon] 8:8.

M
 

---

Posted by Bittersweet (# 10483) on :
 
Duchess, that's quite foul!

She looks like she's about to break a limb, and as for the sticky-out ribs... (shudders)
 

---

Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 
I guess that is just a matter of opinion though.
All subjective.
 

---

Posted by rosamundi (# 2495) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by duchess:
Well, this is what is considered is sexy now...

---

For the love of the sweet Baby Jesus, someone give that woman some food before she breaks.

Deborah
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Saw a documentary called "Thin" on HBO,about a bunch of women in rehab for eating disorders. They all pretty much had the physical type of Nichole. Two of them broke out on a day pass and got tattoos. When the tattoo artist-- young, muscle-bound guy-- asked where they came from, they told him about the rehab center, and one of them said "They are trying to make us fat."

"Oh, God, don't let them do that!" he cried.

Both girls looked like they had been slapped. But then they put big smiles on their faces and assured him they wouldn't.

One of them was about 95 pounds.
 

---

Posted by Lynn MagdalenCollege (# 10651) on :
 
I have an acquaintance online (mutual IRL friend) who is about 85 lbs and it's very touch and go whether she will survive. This is a brilliant woman; she was also an Olympic contender gymnast, so the ED goes 'way back. She has badly damaged her heart with the ED. She knows intellectually that she isn't fat but, in her bones, she feels compelled to exercise until she drops and eat next to nothing; she tries to avoid purging w/laxatives, etc. She's working really hard to stay alive - but the jury's still out.

As much as my knees creak under too many stairs (and it's all my fault, no question) I would rather have my weight problems than hers *anyday* - even though she "looks good"... We have become one seriously twisted society.
 

---

Posted by mirrizin (# 11014) on :
 
duchess posted:

quote:

---

Well, this is what is considered is sexy now...

---

As a male, I have to disagree with whoever is doing that considering. That woman (she is a woman, right?) looks absolutely hideous.
 

---

Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :
 
Here we go again; focusing on the ridiculous extremes. Ms. Ritchie and the bizarre ex-gymnast are as much outside the norm as the occasional gigantic 800-lb person on the news who was so large they had to use a crane to lift their body out of their apartment after they died. Nobody on this thread has even remotely suggested that sickly concentration camp appearance is attractive.

The central issue, as far as I see it, is that as a society we're suffering from large numbers of us being obese - much larger numbers than we are suffering from being wretched scarecrows. The fact that there are wretched scarecrows is in no way a justification for many of us being unhealthily overweight. Neither is the fact that the stupid fashion media pushes anorexic appearance as attractive in any sane way an impetus to be morbidly obese.

Honestly, the ability of you fat people to distract yourselves from your gaping maw of personal culpability for your own state is truly remarkable.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Not really, RooK, eating disorders are just about as close to being declared epidemic as obesity. They kind of weirdly go hand -in- hand.


It's as if the country is so fucked up about the weight issue that half of us are going "fuck it" and overeating, and the other half are going "fuck it" and not eating.

But wait, weren't you they guy a few post up worrying about people personally judging you for your opinions? And now you are personally judging everyone's "culpability" (which you know nothing about)?
 

---

Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:
...
Honestly, the ability of you fat people to distract yourselves from your gaping maw of personal culpability for your own state is truly remarkable.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
But wait, weren't you they guy a few post up worrying about people personally judging you for your opinions? And now you are personally judging everyone's "culpability" (which you know nothing about)?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:
As if I don't eat, or as if I don't like to eat. As if I can't possibly fathom the gentle cradle of relaxing instead of running regularly, or using the car to get my groceries instead of walking 20 minutes each way with a backpack. As if I have some magic force field surrounding me that makes calories bounce off of me and it's all effortless for me stay healthy.

---

Ok, now imagine that in the middle of making all this effort, your fucking arches collapsed. Might it not make you a little bitter? and a little resentful at a bunch of suppositions foisted on you by a total stranger (Mervyn's again) as to how you live your life?
 

---

Posted by lapensiera (# 4057) on :
 
I think it might reduce the fucking-with of my head just enough to be tolerable if the stupid asshats who design clothes would - if their current designs do indeed only look good on 5'10" size 2 women - start designing something for the rest of us who are not that size/height that looks good. Especially that looks good on someone younger than 60! It is INDESCRIBABLY frustrating to wear the same number size once worn by the sexiest of the sexy (viz. Marilyn Monroe, Jayne Mansfield, Mae West, need I go on?) yet NEVER be able to find anything beautiful that I can wear and feel like my inner bombshell self. May the eejit designers ... sorry, just had to add that rant!
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
One more point-- the point of my "thin" story was not the anorexics per se, but the reaction of Johnny Tattoo.

I mean, fuck me, the girls are telling him they are at a rehab for eating disorders and he says "Ewww! Don't let them make you fat!"

Why the heck was that such a knee- jerk response for him? To me, that says he's picked up the idea that Half-dead chick is better than Fat chick.

How many "No Skinny chicks" bumper stickers do you see?
 

---

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by duchess:
The only crime I have is being too much woman for most men to handle.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I mean, fuck me, the girls are telling him they are at a rehab for eating disorders and he says "Ewww! Don't let them make you fat!"

Why the heck was that such a knee- jerk response for him? To me, that says he's picked up the idea that Half-dead chick is better than Fat chick.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Yeah. Keep telling yourself that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:
But, when I see my co-workers taking the elevator exclusively to go down one floor, and loading up a monstrous pile of food in the cafeteria, and hitting the fountain pop machine six times during the work day, I have to say that I think they're unhealthy and fat because of themselves. Sure, it's the end result of a long slippery slope, but it's not like it was a particularly surprising progression.

Maybe they don't care about it, but that doesn't make them any less responsible. I doubt anybody forced anything between their lips, or that anybody stopped them from getting a membership at a pool. We are all well-paid professionals with excellent health care. Hell, the company helps sponsor our gym memberships, forces managers to make allowances for workout schedules, and has "health fairs" where they drag the HMO's in to give anybody who has a spare couple minutes a brief physical.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Janine, I have met you in person, and I can safely say that any guy who doesn't experience a testosterone rush at the first flash of your eyes simply has a funtional problem...

---

Excellent compliment, coming from a woman who could be the archetypical flowing original all the best ships' figureheads take after. I think you know a thing or two about flashing eyes. (Sniffle...) Sweet of you to say, too, Kel, especially since you so cruelly refused to sleep with me in Santa Fe.*

There is a strange connection between the radically too-thin and many size-20-and-ups -- I see it in myself. It's that disconnect from reality, a body image of oneself that hasn't, logically, anything to do with the real.

75-pound almost-dead girls look in the mirror and see "fat". Perfectly fit girls looking up from the fifth regurgitation of the day see "obese" in the bathroom mirror.

I look in the mirror and see... A thrill ride. The cockpit of a vintage luxury car well-covered in butter-soft Fine Corinthian Leather. A full-fat, extra-cream dessert, spiked with spices and finest liquors and set afire as it's served.

Then logic reminds me I'm a middle-aged grandmother, but it doesn't matter -- I revel in the out-of-sync picture (fantasy? insanity?) in my head.

I doubt it has a lot of effect on the men I work with every day -- all those taut young engineers probably see the middle-aged grandmother, not the purring temptress. And the effect they have on me is comparable to how my sons effect me. Dang it. Can't even while away the hours behind that desk awash in arousal. (None that they've caused anyway.)

Anyway, it's what goes on in our heads that makes the confidence level flow, isn't it? Others' reactions to all that is lagniappe.

.
.
.
.
*(We had planned, if needed, to share a bed at a Shipmeet. Get your mind out of the gutter.)
 

---

Posted by Janine (# 3337) on :
 
(It's "how my sons A-ffect me", dang it... Typos increase as hormones slosh ever higher...)
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
(Honestly, Janine? I just didn't trust myself)

Ok, don't hit me, Sark, I'll stop.
 

---

Posted by ananke (# 10059) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:
In my defense, though my mention of sex might have been the most memorable, it was technically a response. And it was meant to suggest that most people have a fairly wide range of what they find physically attractive, such that if chubby chasers were denied rubenesque targets they may well still get by just fine with other body types.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:
In my defense, though my mention of sex might have been the most memorable, it was technically a response. And it was meant to suggest that most people have a fairly wide range of what they find physically attractive, such that if chubby chasers were denied rubenesque targets they may well still get by just fine with other body types.

---

quote:

---

Indeed, I suspect that most who proclaim to have high regard for blobular shapes are going to have a pretty high correlation with those who have little hope of attracting anything else.

---

Given that nearly every woman alive (probably including Nicole whatserface) considers herself to have a blobular shape, and worries about it, what you actually said was 'Your partner says he fancies you, but he's lying and would swap you for a thin bitch in a minute given the chance. Ha, loser! Oh and you're shit in bed as well.'.

Yes, those of us with baby tummies may be oversensitive. But really, if you worry about being cast in a callous role, maybe you should reconsider statements that are guaranteed to strike a personal nerve with practically every woman on the planet.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
You're right, that was what he said.

RooK, she's right. If you are going to fling poo around , don't act all shocked when it lands on someone.


I have to hand it to you, though you seem like you are at least trying to listen, now. Part of my irritation was a general one I have been having, in all areas of my life, regarding people who express their opinions with a bullhorn, then clutch their little hearts and dab their little eyes with a lavendar-scented hankie when somebody dares call them on it. Why is people who have the boldness and brashness to open up a rhetorical tommygun on people in the interests of "Being brutally honest" are usually the people who crumple into a heap if you develop an opinion about their technique?

Ego is ego, RooK. Everybody has one. I see evidence that you are concerned about yours right now-- that is you are concerned about how you are being percieved-- why can't you therefore understand the effect of your words on the egos of others?
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Oh, and your inbox is full.

Don't worry, I was going to say something nice.
 

---

Posted by Persephone Hazard (# 4648) on :
 
I think weight has surprisingly little to do with sexual attraction. I am not the thinnest woman in the universe. Neither am I enormous. I know that I'm going to get shot down in flames for saying this, but I don't think I look as big as I am. The men who find me attractive are not just men who say they find fat women attractive.

There's a photograph of me in my profile. It's not a professional photo or anything, it was taken by a friend in a nightclub. I don't think I look enormous or ugly.

I'm aware that Nicole Richie is an extreme, but there are also women in the media who are considered to be 'chubby' who are in fact underweight or very near it. The world's perception of what is attractive is beyond fucked up.

I only know one man who says that he prefers skinny women, and he's insane in all sorts of ways. It's all just bullshit.
 

---

Posted by Janine (# 3337) on :
 
"I don't think I look as big as I am" is not a flameworthy statement. Media-fed ideals shift, society-held ideals shift, one's own inner estimations of one's looks shift. The whole mess is about as rigid as an amoeba.

All my life, if the subject of my weight has been in a conversation, I've gotten reactions like "Wow, there's no way you weigh that much." We live with the material things and make our way through them every day, all the while navigating by shifting perception.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Persephone Hazard:
I think weight has surprisingly little to do with sexual attraction. I am not the thinnest woman in the universe. Neither am I enormous. I know that I'm going to get shot down in flames for saying this, but I don't think I look as big as I am. The men who find me attractive are not just men who say they find fat women attractive.

There's a photograph of me in my profile. It's not a professional photo or anything, it was taken by a friend in a nightclub. I don't think I look enormous or ugly.

I'm aware that Nicole Richie is an extreme, but there are also women in the media who are considered to be 'chubby' who are in fact underweight or very near it. The world's perception of what is attractive is beyond fucked up.

I only know one man who says that he prefers skinny women, and he's insane in all sorts of ways. It's all just bullshit.

---

I think I am in the same boat as you, Persephone; if you saw the number on the scale you'd gasp, but my mother blessed me with her frame, so I carry it fairly well. That and strategic dressing helps a lot.(Although fuck if I ever wear a girdle again.)

My weight is my own fault, sure, but it is a result of mistakes I made ten fucking years ago, with the help of a bad marriage,beer and two stupid doctors who prescribed me steroids at the same time without warning me about the side effects. I spent the last two years of my marriage using food and alcohol to numb myself out. And it took it's toll. I'm just lucky that the booze didn't get out of hand.

I really don't want to think I will spend the rest of my life-- literally, I'm 38, my metabolism ain't going to snap back to age 20-- apying for mistakes I amde 10 years ago. Paying as far as the kind of respect I get, the kind of assumptions people make about me, the kind of man I should "settle for"

I was thinking this morning about this thread, and the chubby object d'crush I keep referring to. The idea that any woman would be "settling" for him "because they can't do any better"
is preposterous. He's kind, he's funny, he's creative and kind of carries this innate sensuality that makes a woman wonder what kind of kisser he is. He's also a little squirrley and neurotic, so it's not just bold self-confidence that carries him off. If you go by straight biological cues, he's pretty average. It's how he uses his face, hands, eyes, spirit that makes him beautiful.

And he's pretty severely overweight.
 

---

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
This is kind of related. But I watched a new Scooby-doo cartoon today and Velma looks as if she's lost about 45lbs. She has a neck and a waist and was showing thigh.


 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
See, that just ain't right.
 

---

Posted by Janine (# 3337) on :
 
But you see Thelma is the one who looked fit and healthy (and competent) to me all these years. Not her fault that they put her in a chunky sweater so she looked neckless.
 

---

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
I thought she was Velma. What do I know.


Ruh-roh!
 

---

Posted by Janine (# 3337) on :
 
Hang on -- having a weirded-out moment -- I've a friend named Velma and sort of misfiled my Scooby Doo details...

Which is it?

(intoning deep serious voice)
Let Us Google...

OK, you've got it, my brainquirk.

Velma was always the better-looking all around, over Daphne, to me. Of course Freddie was prettier than both of them.
 

---

Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 
This post is pent up lecture. Nothing to do with Janine's previous post...or Kelly's but anyway...

If you take somebody and isolate them, forcing them to starve, yes, they will lose weight. And so yes, eating less works. We ALL FREAKING AGREE WITH THAT. And if you work out, ah, that makes you burn calories. And the more muscle you build, the more calories you burn.

Now that we got that across, I will explain something. I have PCOS. It makes losing weight harder for me than somebody who does not. I have to take 2 medications. If I don't take them, I don't lose weight as well. I have managed in some years to lose about 40 lbs. since 2001 and have kept it off. I am just tired of low-carbing and having to work out all the time. That is the honest truth.

I went out to coffee lately with a guy who is like 6'4" or something and builds a house all the time, besides working a normal job. He looks like he is getting a little skinner than he ought to be but he has some muscles. And he laughed and made fun of what I ordered "is that all you are eating?" I dunno but maybe he has noticed me chowing down, or assumes cuz I am zaftig I chow down 24/7. But the said truth is I don't! And I felt like saying "You know, I am onl 5'7" and I don't build a house...I only work out a few times a week...if that...and I have a lot more fat than you...so yes, I need less calories than you do!" I ended up canceling the small tart order and getting a large brownie. The dude ended up ordering 2 large breakfast treats and he ate them before I finished my brownie.

So maybe somebody should stick me on a desert island with no gin and let me just lose weight slowing, spearing a few fishes to eat.

But I might end up with lots of sagging skin if I lose too fast. I actually have a friend who ended up with some saggy skin. It frightened me so much I actually monitor any weightloss with an eagle eye...

I am though under orders to lose 20 lbs. by my endo doctor. by freaking april! (when I see him next) I won't say all he said that day but it was weird. A really weird office visit

So let me say that I am beyond getting all worked up over comments. I do have to lose weight. But it is a health issue due to my PCOS condition. I don't want to end up screwing up my blood tests...and then my body freaking out again, I stop ovulating and having periods that last more than 5 months ago. And feeling like crap.

For those who are upset because you think I am putting myself down when I call myself fat (pm's I receive and comments on my blog), think again. I don't think being fat is a huge crime. And I think I look so good, it is a crime though. But I will start using the word zaftig from now on since Kelly reminded me of it.

[ 07. January 2007, 05:49: Message edited by: duchess ]
 

---

Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ananke:
That may be, but you didn't answer my question as to exactly what changes. I've gone from healthy to obese (by the BMI) and nowt has changed, so either you were going for very obese women, or didn't have the mechanics down pat.

---

quote:

---

Judgements come from a point of stupidity where you assume you know something about the other person. Not every fat person is going to have a 'reason' but there's a good chance the chick you take to task for being fat is on chemo, or the bloke is actually a third of the size he was, or that the young kid has come off six months of bed rest and can't actually play sport. Chances are your 'help' is going to hurt and offend much more than just the commentary of 'you're fat' because I sure as fuck HATE being reminded of the fact I'll never ever ever be able to play sport, ever be able to kick ball with my kids, or even spend more than a day walking around sight seeing. I know I'm fat, you can tell me that til the cows come home (where I can drink their delicious full fat milk and chew on deliciously marbled steak...) because I don't really care about that. I do care about the constant reminder that I'm disabled and the average moron is too rude and too stupid to deal with that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Iole Nui:
I'm sorry, but that is not what you said at all. You said:

quote:

---

Indeed, I suspect that most who proclaim to have high regard for blobular shapes are going to have a pretty high correlation with those who have little hope of attracting anything else.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Oh, and your inbox is full.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gort:
Sounds like you're looking for a Sydney Anglican priest.

---

No, she's looking for someone looking for her, rather than a wanker in search of a sex-aid. And the SA shot is way wide too.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
<Thanks, AP>
 

---

Posted by A Feminine Force (# 7812) on :
 
Hey Janine,

Having met you in person, I have to say you exude the kind of beauty, confidence, sex appeal and radiance that is the genuine article. Girls in lingerie catalogs try to imitate it, but it can't be manufactured, pretended, or duplicated. Either you have "it" or you don't. They don't, you do.

I can understand a beauty ideal of slenderness because it communicates the desirable feminine traits of vulnerability, youth and delicacy. Kate Moss' neo-Twiggy, heroin-chic "waif" look communicates this kind of "if-I-wasn't-already-broken-you-could-break-me-in-half" kind of message. It's hard to say what women or men find attractive about this kind of image. I don't know, myself.

As an aside rant, could the fashion industry PUH-LEEEUUUZZZ QUIT designing their wares for 12 year old mannequins made-up to look like 20 year olds??? Some of these girls have not even begun to grow their boobs fer chrissake, and they are wearing clothes they won't be able to afford until they are 40 but only look good on you until you're 20.


FF
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
(Both Alan and Flausa have suddenly joined the "recent visitors" list

I have a feeling I am up shit creek. )
 

---

Posted by AdamPater (# 4431) on :
 
That skeeeeeeeeeeeeeny keeeeeeed Alan? Peh! (I'd watch out for the floozy if I were you though.)
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Well, I confessed my "thing" for bald guys to her once, and she took it well.
 

---

Posted by Flausa (# 3466) on :
 
Kelly, I completely understand the attraction to my husband. I'm just offended you don't think he married me because he thought I was a sexy Nautilus machine.
 

---

Posted by AdamPater (# 4431) on :
 
Sooo.... how about those Dockers, hey? Do you think they'll do any better this season?
 

---

Posted by ananke (# 10059) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:
I didn't explain in graphic detail what the differences were? Does this look like T'n'T to you? Let me just mention these: We could could have vigorous penetrative sex while I was driving. More generally, though, was the fact that I could support her entire weight with one arm. This will have to be sufficient for even your plainly meagre imagination.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:
We could could have vigorous penetrative sex while I was driving.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ananke:
That may be, but you didn't answer my question as to exactly what changes. I've gone from healthy to obese (by the BMI) and nowt has changed, so either you were going for very obese women, or didn't have the mechanics down pat.

---

We could could have vigorous penetrative sex while I was driving.

---

(judicious edit by Anselmina)

Hey ananke, you could be on to a good thing here. He doesn't make that offer to just anyone you know....
 

---

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :
 
I hope I don't walk into the shitstorm here but I think that most people look first at people who fit into their category of good looking (no comments at all intended about what fits there for most people.)
If you don't strike most people as good looking then it's harder to get people's attention, I'd say. Probably, once you do, you have similar chances of a serious relationship suceeding as anyone else.
 

---

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :
 
Practically, since we're spending so much time thinking and debating about it:
One certainly could gather evidence to prove something--start a poll in the circus asking whether people would date an obese member of the appealing sex. I have no idea what the results would say and I don't know how other people would feel about this, so I'm not doing it but it is an interesting idea, IMO.
 

---

Posted by Jimmy B (# 220) on :
 
Gang shuo Caocao, Caocao jiu dao*.

The Poll awaits you in the Circus.


[ETA: * loosely, 'Speak of the Devil!', Caocao a warlord from the time of the 3 Kingdoms)

[ 07. January 2007, 14:33: Message edited by: Jimmy B ]
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Flausa:
Kelly, I completely understand the attraction to my husband. I'm just offended you don't think he married me because he thought I was a sexy Nautilus machine.

---

What do you think I meant by "intelligence level"? The guy has good taste.
 

---

Posted by rugasaw (# 7315) on :
 
I just started playing around with a BMI calculator. I discovered when I first got out of the military I weighed 185 pounds. I had to buy jeans a size to large for my waist so the legs would fit*. Yet I by BMI standards I would have been considered overweight.

That did not remain long and I have since gained more than a few pounds.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
See, that's why I think there's so much heat on this thread-- I think a lot of people are clinically, BMI-wise, obese, and they know it. It just doesn't show. It might not even significantly impact their general health or activity level. This is the kind of person who is generally healthy, but can't look at a slice of bread without acquiring it on their thighs, sort of thing.

Or the person who gets on track with a good excercise routine, MESSES UP HER FUCKING FOOT!, and re-gains ten pounds by simply not starving herself to compensate for the lack of excercise. Grrr.

So the lucky Perfect Specimens toss around the word "obese" innocently meaning "somebody who is manifestly grossly overweight" when it might not mean that in a lot of people's minds.
 

---

Posted by Papio (# 4201) on :
 
To me, someone who is manifestly grossly overweight weighs in excess of 25 stone. At least.

That isn't because I am ignorant of the medical defination, as I'm not, but because, to me, the catergories "obese" and "morbidly obese" obscure real differences.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Aha! Good point.
 

---

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
So the lucky Perfect Specimens toss around the word "obese" innocently meaning "somebody who is manifestly grossly overweight" when it might not mean that in a lot of people's minds.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ananke:
That's more than enough detail. Particularly the thought of someone driving whilst having sex. *shudder* Not a good thing. Not to mention both of those things are not bound by skinniness - I probably could do the first, but choose safety instead, and since my husband happens to have a fair bit of muscle, can do the second. I also happen to be close to 100kg.

My poor imagination, so limited by safety, sanity and muscular men...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:
Because, if you had, you'd probably realize that in addition to being able to support someone during such a vigorous activity force-wise, it is also necessary to be able to wrap the arm most of the way around the waist. So, unless you've married a orangutan, it makes me suspect you are just being contrary.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ananke:
I'm not convinced your average tool knows enough to be supported in telling fat people they're fat.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:
That's not all I was saying, duchess. And that particular piece you've focused on is mostly about my cynicism regarding human interactions. Do you really need me to explain my logic underlying that particular sentiment again?

Don't you ever get tired of oversimplifying everything until it's meaningless? No, wait - I forgot: you voted for Dubya. Twice.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by duchess:
It is amazing how much you protest this and shrill you get when I point out the obvious with little effort. It is the crux of what you have been saying here all along. Hope that is better.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by duchess:
Hello, he was saying "While some may say they prefer fatter chicks, if given the chance, they would choose a skinnier one, unless they are less attractive and can only attract fatter chicks."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:
It's frustrating for me, philosophically, because I know what works for me really doesn't work for most people. So I don't know what could possibly be done to achieve a generally healthier society. I guess, the most I can hope for on this thread is to talk with you guys, to find out what might work for you. Maybe we can find something that's a beginning of a trend we could encourage?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:
...It's frustrating for me, philosophically, because I know what works for me really doesn't work for most people. So I don't know what could possibly be done to achieve a generally healthier society. I guess, the most I can hope for on this thread is to talk with you guys, to find out what might work for you. Maybe we can find something that's a beginning of a trend we could encourage?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:
And you think that one statement is central to my input on this thread, why?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ananke:
That all aside, I'm lucky. I'm healthy enough to do what I want, mobile enough that I can go do aqua-aerobics and smart enough to not give up and go along with the rest of the world in thinking I'm a helpless, useless lardo. It could very easily be much worse.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by duchess:
Because I think it what pissed a lot of people off.
Go ahead and dodge the question. But you and I both know what the answer is.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:
Seems like it's mostly the smug bastards who look on overeating as something that people aren't helpless about, and that leads to thinking unkind thoughts. And it's the people who view it as helpless that are at risk of just succumbing to it, or are enablers.

It sort of makes sense, if you follow my backward-seeming reasoning there.

---

It does make sense.

Personally I am a lot more calm now that we've established that there is a lot of subjective stuff around the word "obese", and that the only definition of "healthy" isn't "people you can pick up with one arm."
 

---

Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :
 
No kidding, Kelly. I guess I should have been more cognizant of terminology and clarified that much of what I was arguing was not meant to be viewing people in the same way that fashion magazines do.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 


Gents? This would be a Real Man (can't do the TM thing)
 

---

Posted by Iole Nui (# 3373) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:
No kidding, Kelly. I guess I should have been more cognizant of terminology and clarified that much of what I was arguing was not meant to be viewing people in the same way that fashion magazines do.

---

I suspect that you have simply never experienced the level of flack you can attract, and at what a low level that flack can start. (Often, as Ananke says, it starts not because you are fat but because you are the wrong shape). So yes, there are plenty of us who are hyper-aware and hyper-sensitive of implied or intended slights.

The story I told earlier about pregnancy, for instance. Perfectly presentable and attractive girls become a bit thick round the middle due to not-yet-obvious pregnancy, and suddenly they find waiting staff treating them with a barely concealed sneer because they order dessert.

I wasn't fat as a girl. I was, unfortunately, a short, sturdy person from a long line of short, sturdy people. No amount of starvation (and believe me, I tried it) will ever make me elfin, or delicate, or apt to attract the sort of man who wants to pick his women up with one hand. I also, like Ananke, developed large breasts at an age when girls are 'supposed' to be leggy and coltish. And, although not at that age overweight at all, I was routinely called fat, not just by fellow schoolchildren, but by PE teachers and other adults who, frankly, should damn well have known better. I vividly remember asking in a certain chain store whether a particular blouse came in a size 14 (I think a US size 12) and the skinny, adult assistant telling me with unconcealed contempt "God, no, we don't carry outsize here, you'd better go somewhere else" and going home in tears. (This was not just bad business - I still avoid that shop to this day - it was an outright lie. 14 is a perfectly normal size and they do carry it. It was, in fact, just deliberate cruelty.)

The point of this sob story isn't to fish for sympathy in Hell ( ), though it is partly to illustrate why illconsidered statements can easily be hurtful to people who've had a bellyful of disdain. But more than that, I think these attitudes are getting worse, and that partly because of the insistent publicity about the 'obesity epidemic', and the government's desperation to be seen as doing something about it with shaming policies like the one described in the OP. The sort of cruelty that happens anyway, as I described, is actually being legitimised.
 

---

Posted by Iole Nui (# 3373) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by RooK:
It's frustrating for me, philosophically, because I know what works for me really doesn't work for most people. So I don't know what could possibly be done to achieve a generally healthier society. I guess, the most I can hope for on this thread is to talk with you guys, to find out what might work for you. Maybe we can find something that's a beginning of a trend we could encourage?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Gort:
There's only one thing that works for me as a motivator for losing weight. It may be simplistic, but I have to focus attention on the "feel good" factors of more energy, better sleep, higher sensitivity to stimulus, increased concentration and ambition. Every little bump in awareness needs to be noticed for the benefit it is, otherwise it's all pissing in the wind. There has to be positive personal feedback.

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Originally posted by CrookedCucumber:
So unless people get an obvious and tangible benefit from maintaining reasonable weight, most people aren't going to be able to, whatever facilties for exercise, etc., are provided. Of course, there will always be a few freaks who either (i) don't like to eat or (ii) like to eat but don't gain weight because of some metabolic problem; but for nearly everybody else weight control is bloody hard work, and needs to be rewarded.

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Originally posted by Iole Nui:

But more than that, I think these attitudes are getting worse, and that partly because of the insistent publicity about the 'obesity epidemic', and the government's desperation to be seen as doing something about it with shaming policies like the one described in the OP. The sort of cruelty that happens anyway, as I described, is actually being legitimised.

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Originally posted by RooK:

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Originally posted by duchess:
Because I think it what pissed a lot of people off.
Go ahead and dodge the question. But you and I both know what the answer is.

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Sure, it pissed a lot of people off. Why does that automatically make it my primary idea? Answer my fucking question please, madame one-tiny-thought-at-a-time.

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Originally posted by Iole Nui:
I'm sorry, but that is not what you said at all. You said:

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Indeed, I suspect that most who proclaim to have high regard for blobular shapes are going to have a pretty high correlation with those who have little hope of attracting anything else.

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Indeed I did. And I deserve some wrath for it.
Especially since I think that I still stand by it. What can I say? I'm a craven cynic, with a low opinion of humanity.

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Originally posted by Twilight:
That's what offends me. It's this belief that we, any of us, have the right to comment on another person's body size.

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Originally posted by Iole Nui:
Oh brill, Twilight. There I was, feeling all full of self-righteous indignation, and now you've got me all guilty for casually using 'thin bitch' earlier in the thread...

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Originally posted by Iole Nui:
I know this isn't my blog, though it's beginning to look increasingly like it today (I'm hanging around beside the computer trying to encourage the bunch of muppets at the agency to get off their bums and sort out the contract for the nanny who's supposed to start on Wednesday. How's that for bloggy?)

But I just thought I'd add this datapoint for those who think the overweight are eating ginormous amounts of food all the time.

This last week or so I've been tracking all my food intake in a geeky spreadsheet. And I'm being honest (come on, nobody lies to their food diary in the first week). And I'm having real difficulty reaching 1000 calories a day. So much so that most evening I'm saying, bugger, I'd better eat a banana just to get a respectable total.

I'm not dieting, I'm really just doing this to keep Mr Nui company, this is just pretty much what I normally eat on a day without treats (which is most days).

According to the BBC health site, someone of my age, weight and height ought to be using 1500 calories just to survive if they're completely sedentary - and I'm not, I walk most days, pushing a pushchair, and swim once or twice a week.

It's unnatural, I tell you, unnatural. If I don't start losing weight I'm going to take this food diary and go to the doctor.

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Originally posted by RooK:
Yes, I said it. I DO have cynical suspicions about personal assertions made by people on the internet. It DOES seem to me that many people think that "blobular shaped" people are desperate and have low standards and some might try to take advantage of that.

AND YOU READ THIS INTO EVERY ONE OF MY POSTS HERE... WHY?

Honestly duchess, snap out of it. Give me all the grief you want for having said it that way. Argue with me all you want, because I do still think the same basic cynical and mean thought. But to assert that this is the "crux" of my interaction here feels like deliberate stupidity on your part, and it's pissing me off.

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I think that all of us have the right to make public comment about pretty much everything that is available for public notice. And about most stuff that isn't, too.

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Originally posted by RooK:

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Originally posted by Twilight:
That's what offends me. It's this belief that we, any of us, have the right to comment on another person's body size.

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Egad, here we are - back where I got lured in to this bottomless pit of my own fear and loathing.

I hate to say it, but as much as I cringe from polite society actually engaging in such rudeness, I think that all of us have the right to make public comment about pretty much everything that is available for public notice. And about most stuff that isn't, too.

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Originally posted by Twilight:
Let's blog women!

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