quote:

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Originally posted by Cymruambyth:
Are there any shipmates taking the EFM course? Why are you taking it, and what do you get out of it? I'm celebrating tonight - just finished my second year - two down, two to go. I'm looking forward to Year Three - all that lovely church history.

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On balance this is not a discussion thread, but a "Share your experiences" thread that would be better off in All Saints.

Duo Seraphim,Purgatory Host

[ 25. May 2006, 04:05: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
I've been a mentor at various times in my career and consider it one of the finest faith and ministry formation programmes around. I'm a bit of a dry academic, so I possibly downplay the action/reflection side of things to be honest, which is a Bad Thing To Do, but I believe it is, nevertheless, outstanding. EFM graduates have been the single best source of energy and leadership I have had in twenty years of parish ministry.
 

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Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
Cymruambeth, congrats on completing two years! That's a big accomplishment. I'd like to hear more about what you liked (or didn't) about the course. I'm finishing up my third year as a Mentor. We had an EFM thread earlier in the year, and I'm glad someone started a new one as I'm anxious to see how peoples' years ended up. I'll post more tomorrow but it's past my bedtime.
 

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Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
I just finished Year One. I started because it I wanted the Bible study. Everyone else in the group had pretty much the same reason for being there, so we spent far more time discussing the reading we'd done than doing the theological reflections and other such stuff. I found it very useful to read big chunks of the Hebrew scriptures, but the discussions were the best part and are the reason I'm signing up for Year Two.

A couple of major complaints, though:

1. The quality of the commentary they provide is uneven at best, and it really chaps my hide to shell out hundreds of dollars to Sewanee in exchange for a binder of material I could get for a lot less money (and in higher quality) if I just bought a single-volume Biblical commentary.

2. The first year reading is divided up in a really stupid way. It starts incredibly slowly, one lesson on Genesis 1, another on Genesis 2, and builds throughout the year, to the point where the last lesson covers all Wisdom and apocalyptic literature. On top of the practical problems created by such an uneven distribution of the reading, it creates the impression that Wisdom and apocalyptic literature aren't very important. Which is just wrong.
 

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Posted by LynnMagdalenCollege (# 10651) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by RuthW:
builds throughout the year, to the point where the last lesson covers all Wisdom and apocalyptic literature. On top of the practical problems created by such an uneven distribution of the reading, it creates the impression that Wisdom and apocalyptic literature aren't very important. Which is just wrong.

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quote:

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Originally posted by LynnMagdalenCollege:
I don't know EFM, but I'm curious about definitions: do you mean Wisdom literature (i.e., Psalms & Proverbs) or the book of Wisdom? And apocalyptic literature, meaning Revelation, portions of Ezekiel, Zechariah, Daniel, etc. - or the apocrypha? I think "Wisdom" has got me thinking apocrypha. Thanks for the clarification--

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Sorry, shouldn't have capitalized wisdom -- the EFM commentary does so, so I followed suit. The psalms are treated separately, and not as wisdom literature. Ezekiel is also treated separately and as a prophetic rather than an apocalyptic work. Year One reading is the OT, so Revelation is not discussed at all -- that comes in the last lesson of Year Two. The reading for the last lesson of Year One treats Proverbs, Job and Ecclesiastes as wisdom literature, with some references to the apocrypha, and Daniel as apocalyptic literature. They expect that people are going to read about half of Proverbs, all of Job, most of Ecclesiastes, and most of Daniel, plus 36 pages of commentary, in one week.

Rainbow Kate: I agree about the copyediting. It's another thing that makes me resent paying so much money.
 

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Posted by Melisande (# 4177) on :
 
I've finished the first two years, am currently taking a year off post-baby, and plan to return for Year Three in September. I'm looking forward to the church history, too; I was a religion minor in college, so I had exposure to things like redaction, pseudepigrapha, etc., and did not have my world rocked by the idea that the bible does not tell an internally-consistent story.

I agree with RuthW and RainbowKate about the odd arranging of the material and the copyediting.
 

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Posted by Cymruambyth (# 10887) on :
 
As a former seminarian I was relatively familiar with the content of years one and two (and I agree that Year One is not well thought out. However, I believe so much time is spent on the Pentateuch to counteract any misunderstandings about it being literal. EFM is definitely not a course for fundamentalists.) I found the amount of reading a bit of a bind, but the discussions at each seminar were wonderful. Best of all were the theological reflections. My priest wishes TR was taught in seminaries and I agree. As I said before, I'm looking forward to Year Three and Church History because I'm a history buff, and the material covered looks fascinating. And yes, I wish someone would proofread the text! My mentors also told me that the earlier EFM courses were very ECUSA-centric, and changes were made to accommodate Canadian students.
 

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Posted by Amazing Grace (# 95) on :
 
I'm just about to finish up year one, and basically What Ruth Said.

We are a mixed-year class and all the mentors were with Year Two (because they haven't completed the program). So after some coaching we organized our own lessons. We had the sole Year Three student sitting in with us to give us the benefit of his perspective, which helped. But it was fun to see where it went and has helped us hone our web search skills. (Two threads from Keryg got brought to the attention of my class ... Ruth's class seems to be a week or two ahead of ours, and had their Crisis of Faith during Joshua ahead of ours.)

The "sprint" has been frustrating at times and the guide was worse than useless sometimes (after a certain point I didn't really freakin' care about which source wrote which passages, ya know?). I am glad to hear that Year Two seems to be organized better. (As one of my fellow students said, "Less material. We'll coast.")

I still don't really get TR very well. I'm mostly there for the Bible study, although I'd like to stick around for Church History.

We have a very good community thing going on here, and some good cross-parish interaction (we're a mixed parish group as well).

Charlotte
 

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Posted by Paige (# 2261) on :
 
I've taken a long break from the Ship, but knew I needed to come back and check in on this particular thread because I will be mentoring an EFM group in my parish this fall, and it's a whole 'nother ball game being on this side of the fence!

I took over the group in March, but used the previous mentor's calendar, approach, etc.---now it's time to craft my own. If you could give your own mentor some advice on how to plan and run the sessions, what would it be?

I am going to have a multi-year group---Years 1 & 3 at the moment, though I'm hoping to recruit a Year 2 student who has been out for a while.

I've been apprenticing with a multi-year group at another parish in town, and I love the way the different years interact---we also spend half the night on theological reflections, which neither of the groups I attended as a student did. I find that TRs are the glue that holds multi-year groups together, and that they were the missing ingredient to my own EFM experience. Any thoughts on that?

And I agree with Ruth---the editing on the materials is appalling. I keep e-mailing Sewanee about that issue---I figure if they get enough complaints, they will do something about it....

(In the interest of full discolure, I will note that part of the EFM fees go to pay honoraria for the mentors. My co-mentor and I basically use the money to pay for snacks, since food is the OTHER thing that holds EFM groups together! )
 

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Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
Congratulations and blessings to you, Paige, for taking on the Mentor mantle.

quote:

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I find that TRs are the glue that holds multi-year groups together, and that they were the missing ingredient to my own EFM experience. Any thoughts on that?

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quote:

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And I agree with Ruth---the editing on the materials is appalling. I keep e-mailing Sewanee about that issue---I figure if they get enough complaints, they will do something about it....

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mamacita:
Congratulations and blessings to you, Paige, for taking on the Mentor mantle.

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You were an inspiration to me on that front, Mamacita---so I thank you.

I'm so excited about doing this! The mentor I relieved had a very different style from mine---apparently she was more into lecturing, and when I first got the group, they wouldn't say boo to a goose. By the end of the year, they were all talking over one another, which made me very happy.

quote:

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Originally posted by Mamacita:
It always boggles my mind when I find out about EFM groups that don't do TRs. Without the TRs, you basically have a Bible Study class. You don't have to slavishly do them week after week, but doing them often is critical. (Critical for two reasons: One, because doing TRs is a learned skill, for both the mentor and the participants, and the more you do, the better you get at it. Two, because the insights that come from TRs are, IMNSHO, where the personal growth occurs in EFM.)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mamacita:
My advice to new mentors would be to get the group going with the Microscope Method (regardless of what the "method of the year" is) and then to experiment with the other TR methods that are in your CLSM book. Using different sources from time to time (Scripture passages, but also TV shows, films, newspaper articles, cartoons, artwork, a piece of music] will stretch them, intellectually and spiritually.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mamacita:
*Paige, be sure you sign up for this. It's incredibly helpful... like a cross between Kerygmania and Ecclesiantics, without the tat talk.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Penny Lane:
One thing neither mentor did well was keep the group on task. Getting 'on board' could take half the evening, with the mentor often being the worst offender. This isn't a problem on an occasional basis, when someone's life crisis warrants extra attention, but on a weekly basis is problematic.

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Penny---I had the same issue with the EFM group I finished the course with. They were so deeply divided along philosophical/political lines that the On Board was the group bonding experience. It always made me want to tear my hair out...

The group I've been apprenticing with is great on that score. They spend about 15-20 minutes on it, and it's perfect. I'm going to try and keep to that model.
 

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Posted by Amazing Grace (# 95) on :
 
We had a big group (16). Check-in could be a problem. We eventually got a bell that the timekeeper could *ding*.

Paige, we also had a snack rota. I suggest you implement one rather than spending your hard earned pittance.

Charlotte
 

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Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
Debating resuming with EFM again in the fall. Not sure I can really commit to a full year of diligently doing the readings and thinkings (in between sessions). Completed my first year a year ago, then took a break. Actually was pretty much "missing-in-action" for the second half -- I should have just bit the bullet and withdrawn, I think.

Unsure if I should repeat the first year, or move forward to the second? Or maybe wait another year, work through the rest of the first year materials on my own, and then go on.

Was somewhat annoyed with my EFM group -- Checking In for us also started to take a longer and longer time, and Theological Reflection also (IMO) came more and more to resemble shooting the breeze about our lives and thoughts. Wasn't myself always fully prepared and centered to be able to offer an alternative way to pull the discussion, though.

I would like to learn the second year material -- find out what the New Testament is really on about, and whether that makes sense to me or not.

One of the spectacular things about the first year to me was that it introduced you to a huge set of resources for reading more about the OT. I presume the same is true of other years -- our third years e.g. complained that some of the church history materials covered huges swaths of time and gobs of issues, but at least you'd come out of it with a passing acquaintance with what the terms were and where to go to dig deeper.
 

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Posted by Penny Lane (# 3086) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
I presume the same is true of other years -- our third years e.g. complained that some of the church history materials covered huges swaths of time and gobs of issues, but at least you'd come out of it with a passing acquaintance with what the terms were and where to go to dig deeper.

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Perhaps I'm a bit slow , but toward the end of the 3rd year it finally dawned on me that I was part of the continuum of church history that began with the OT and continued through the present time. Our issues today are the church history of tomorrow. EFM was the context in which that lightbulb came on, and for that, I'm grateful.
 

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Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Completed my first year a year ago, then took a break. Actually was pretty much "missing-in-action" for the second half -- I should have just bit the bullet and withdrawn, I think...

Unsure if I should repeat the first year, or move forward to the second?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
We had a big group (16). Check-in could be a problem. We eventually got a bell that the timekeeper could *ding*.

Paige, we also had a snack rota. I suggest you implement one rather than spending your hard earned pittance.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sienna:
I'm glad an EFM thread started up again. I'm going to be in the somewhat strange position of starting year 3 of my own EFM course, while mentoring a year 1 group, which is apparently allowed. I go for training this weekend.

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quote:

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someone at church who utterly adored her EFM experience, and is always raving about how fantastic it was...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Paige:

quote:

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Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
We had a big group (16). Check-in could be a problem. We eventually got a bell that the timekeeper could *ding*.

Paige, we also had a snack rota. I suggest you implement one rather than spending your hard earned pittance.

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That's interesting about your group---I thought they were limited to 12?

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We were bigger than that when we started but a couple of people ended up dropping out. I think it was officially two groups.

It was fairly rare when we were all there.

The disadvantage is that we lost one of our mentors but everybody else signed back up, so we're not looking to recruit year one students, which bothers me because I had such a great general experience and want to share the fun. (Especially since there are now exactly TWO people from St. Spike's in this class and I feel as though we're letting down the side .) I will be trying to schmooze ex-mentors at St. Spike's for next year so we can expand.

Charlotte
 

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Posted by AlmostRev (# 11571) on :
 
GloriaGloriaGloria--don't give up.

I stepped in as a mentor to a small group a few years ago, and as a mentor I have to go to training every 16 months. The last training was the first time where everyone could sit down & discuss group dynamics. There are many ways a group can handle chapter discussions, TR, snack, check-in, etc. There are many ways to do TR--although there is always the "suggested" method for each year/cycle-if that doesn't work there are many alternatives. I had 3 years of EfM as a student (the group imploded before the start of year 4) and the experience is worth the work.
 

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Posted by TubaMirum (# 8282) on :
 
I will be starting EFM, Year One, this month, and am looking forward to it.

I'm taking it because I'd actually started reading in theology already quite a bit, and I think you really get more out of a structured program. Also, I like the people in my parish and am looking forward to working with a small group (I think we'll be about 8 or so).

I was quite excited to find that Year One is Hebrew Bible; that's exactly what I want to learn more about.
 

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Posted by basso (# 4228) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Also, I like the people in my parish and am looking forward to working with a small group (I think we'll be about 8 or so).

I was quite excited to find that Year One is Hebrew Bible; that's exactly what I want to learn more about.

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quote:

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Originally posted by basso:

quote:

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Originally posted by TubaMirum:
Also, I like the people in my parish and am looking forward to working with a small group (I think we'll be about 8 or so).

I was quite excited to find that Year One is Hebrew Bible; that's exactly what I want to learn more about.

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I think your group is about the right size.

If you're looking forward to the Hebrew Bible, you may want to take a look at the Jewish Study Bible. It's the Jewish Publication Society translation, and the notes are really excellent. I thought it added a lot to my understanding when I was in Year 1.

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quote:

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Originally posted by GloriaGloriaGloria:
Folks who have completed Year 2, I've got a question for you.

Were there any supplemental books that you found particularly helpful? I've got a generous gift certificate to a very good bookstore, and I'm just itching to use it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mamacita:
I haven't read this one yet, but I know of a mentor that strongly recommends Raymond Brown’s An Introduction to the New Testament.

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quote:

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I seem to be someone who can simultaneously throw away structure at the drop of the hat, and who wants to hold structure carefully and find meaning inside of it.

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That's the trick, isn't it, AR? It's an ongoing challenge for me as a Mentor - when do I let the group's momentum take it off on a tangent (because, I think, the Holy Spirit resides in tangents!). Or when do I bend the theological reflection process and when do I push people "back on track." Sometimes I feel like I'm dancing just one step ahead of my group!
 

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Posted by RainbowKate (# 9331) on :
 
My group always had the different years together (though most of the time we only had 3 of the 4 years represented at any one time), and it was really beneficial. You start making the connections between history, scripture, and theology. It worked very well, for the most part. Prior to my Year 2 our mentor had never screened people who wanted to enter the program, but she did after that. We had a couple enter who despite being Episcopalian were more fundamentalist than Jerry Falwell. In some ways it really shut down the group as there were certain things we just didn't touch because of how they would attack people over things. I had decided to leave the group and find another group as I just couldn't take them any longer (being gay I was their favorite target). Thankfully, they left the group first. I really wish our mentor had confronted them on their behavior up front.

Post-EFM several of us who graduated together have formed a Theology/Religion bookgroups.

It certainly gave me the knowledge and confidence to lead the Adult Forum at my own church.

As for TR's, we did them occassionally with intent, but often just by chance. Our group had a knack of moving into a TR mode rather naturally; I think largely due to having all the year's together. Check-in could/did get very long at times, but we became better as years went on about keeping things short.
 

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Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
Very interesting post, RainbowKate. It's too bad your mentor didn't call those people on the carpet the first time they made you (or anyone) a "target." That's so far beyond the pale, especially for EFM, which is supposed to be safe. (That said, I did a lot of behind-the-scenes reassuring of the gay woman in my group, who was concerned that she would be verbally attacked. She was not. Ground rules are important.)

After our "wrestling with Paul" session I ran a whole evening of conversation on various attitudes towards the "authority of scripture." It was really interesting; people in the group found out that none of them were at either extreme and that they had more common ground than they had assumed. The Florida woman told us that some people in her EFM group back home had been very shaken up by the Sewanee materials because they were not literalist. So it does make sense for people to learn how EFM differs from traditional bible study before they jump in.

It's great that your group learned to just sort of move into TR naturally. I'm glad to hear that you've taken that "thinking theologically" into further study. Good on ya.
 

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Posted by RainbowKate (# 9331) on :
 
Mamacita, it was a very startling dynamic when they entered our group, since during my Year 1 I'd experienced it as being a very safe and non-judgemental place. In following years our mentor did do a much better job of laying ground rules.

The most interesting thing that came out of that group was a very sincere relationship I developed with a staunchly Republican, very traditional older woman. S and I disagree on just about everything, but we learnt to really love each other as friends. We bonded over her grief regarding her grandchildren's alcoholic father. As I'd been raised in a home like that I became someone she talked to about how she could be a support to them. And in a strange way that helped me process some of my grief over my parents.

I think we both learnt a lot about looking past differences and focusing on the things that connect us. It taught me a lot about not judging people by "labels" (though I still do that lots of the time, but I did learn it!)
 

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Posted by GloriaGloriaGloria (# 8017) on :
 
We had our first session last night, and on a scale of 1-10, I'd rank it a 5. Spent most of the time hashing out how to divide up the time - there were 4 very distinct groups of thought on that matter, and we haven't exactly reached consensus yet. (Oh, our poor mentor!)

Back to TRs for a second. Would those of you who have had positive TR-related experiences mind giving the rest of us some examples of different topics that worked well for you? I'd find that very helpful, as I suspect some of the topics my group used last year were ill-suited.
 

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Posted by RainbowKate (# 9331) on :
 
I think in general (at least until the group is well bonded) using subjects that are not politically charged is helpful. The format we often used was to take an example from a movie or popular culture (we had a fondness for Peanuts cartoons) and discuss the scenario, then move out and relate that scenario to something in our own lives where we felt the same emotions, and then moving it into scripture and what stories connect to those emotions/events.

If we used an event in someone's life as the starting point the key piece is that it had to be something that was over and resolved.
 

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Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by GloriaGloriaGloria:
Back to TRs for a second. Would those of you who have had positive TR-related experiences mind giving the rest of us some examples of different topics that worked well for you?

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quote:

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Originally posted by RainbowKate:
Prior to my Year 2 our mentor had never screened people who wanted to enter the program, but she did after that. We had a couple enter who despite being Episcopalian were more fundamentalist than Jerry Falwell. ....I really wish our mentor had confronted them on their behavior up front.

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One of my fellow mentors at the last training claimed to have been the only Episcopal priest baptized by Jerry Falwell...

When I applied for my first year of EfM, the mentor said that if I were fundamentalist in my beliefs and took everything literally, EfM would not be a good fit. Evidently she, too, learned from her experience--she had a married couple in one group who made the rest of the group uncomfortable with their constant interuptions and judgemental statements towards other group members with liberal leanings. The couple graduated, and set up a group that met on the same night as the EfM group, but in the room next door. We could hear them praying for us...
 

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Posted by GloriaGloriaGloria (# 8017) on :
 
We have a handful of new people in my group this year who, while I would hesitate to label them as strict fundamentalists, definately lean towards that end of the spectrum. Let's just say that the documentary hypothesis was a new idea to them, as was some of the material on myth/legend.

The academic/chapter discussion time isn't working out too smoothly - everyone wants to talk, and we have a lot of type-A talk-a-holics, and there simply isn't enough time. For example, this past Wednesday, We started off with the Year 1 and then Year 3 lessons, and spent so much time on them that there was no time to spend on the others.

I think this is one area where Sewanee needs to rethink the program. We've got 14 including the mentor, and by the time you subtract the "Getting on board" time and the time for worship, that doesn't leave very much time.

I've thought about suggesting we break into smaller groups for this part, so that we can actually have discussion on the material. Anyone ever tried this, and how did it work?

Otherwise, we're plodding ahead with the spiritual autobiographies. How about everyone else?
 

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Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
Sewanee puts the size limit at 12, not counting the mentor. I get the impression that some groups stretch the size (and can understand that, because it can be difficult to split up, especially if there isn't another available mentor). But they're quite clear with us in mentor training that the group dynamics get problematic when the group is too large. A couple of suggestions (including keeping the on-board time very short -- or tacking 15 min. "early" time before the meeting starts, if people like to gab):
My very often divide my group up for the chapter discussions -- even though we only have seven! Sometimes I divide them by "years." Sometimes I say "pair off with someone you haven't worked with for a while." Sometimes we do it by chance. I let the pairs/threes/fours talk for 20 min and then we spend another 20 min with each group reporting the high points of their conversation. Then I sort of wrap up, help people draw connections between the conversations, all that mentory-type stuff. Sometimes, if the Holy Spirit is hanging around and we're tuned into her, we can segue right into a TR from there.
Your group could also try a "talking stick" or something like that. But I think subdividing them for the chapter discussions makes more sense.

I still owe you some TR suggestions -- I haven't forgotten, I'm just disorganized. My group starts Tuesday. Time to get my act together!
 

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Posted by GloriaGloriaGloria (# 8017) on :
 
I think I'll give our mentor a call this week and ask if we could consider splitting into smaller groups for discussion - see how the group feels about trying it for a week or two and seeing how it works out.

The talking-stick might not be a bad idea (there's a handful in this group who literally cannot keep their mouths closed when others are talking!) but I'm only partly jesting when I say that it would probably wind up being used as a weapon (ie, "Shut up and let me finish what I was saying!" *WHAP!) - Guess we'd need a soft and fluffy talking stick, like a stuffed animal.

As far as the TR ideas - no rush on that, I know you're busy with getting things set with your group!
 

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Posted by Amazing Grace (# 95) on :
 
GGG-

We were about half-and-half years one and two, so we ALWAYS split for the lesson part and rejoined at snack time.

Interestingly enough, all of our mentors were going through year two (for the second time ... long story) so after a few sessions they left us year ones by ourselves for lesson. We rotated assignment for "facilitating" the discussion - there were six of us so it wasn't burdensome. We had the benefit of the sole year three student, who sat in with us and helped with "big picture". (Actually I think he'd make a good mentor. Maybe I'll suggest it.)

Charlotte
 

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Posted by The Prophetess (# 1439) on :
 
I'm starting the first year of EFM tomorrow evening. I've really been wrestling lately with the question of what I'm called to do with my life, and I'm hoping this will help. Prayers please!
 

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Posted by GloriaGloriaGloria (# 8017) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by The Prophetess:
I'm starting the first year of EFM tomorrow evening. I've really been wrestling lately with the question of what I'm called to do with my life, and I'm hoping this will help. Prayers please!

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How exciting, I hope it's a fruitful and wonderful experience for you, and I look forward to hearing your experience with EFM.

Quick update: 2-3 group members objected to the idea of splitting into smaller groups for discussion & our mentor didn't seem thrilled with the idea, so that plan is a no-go, at least at this point in time. A handful of us (the ones who most wanted to split into smaller discussion groups) are thinking about meeting weekly for Sunday lunch, so we will have a chance to cover everything and discuss the material to our hearts' content.

I feel kind of strange about it, like we're going behind our mentor's back, but our needs aren't being met (we need more than 15 minutes!), and this seems to be the most simple solution. (And, of course, if we split into smaller groups for discussion, it would make other group members equally unhappy.)
 

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Posted by Amazing Grace (# 95) on :
 
GGG-

That sounds like a workable solution, as long as people's feelings wouldn't get hurt by being "excluded".

We had a revolt mid-year last year because check-in was taking a long time and almost all of us were way more interested in lesson than TR. It also felt a bit unfair because we actually did prep work for most of our lessons. So after processing, we agreed to split the time after check-in and meet up at an agreed-upon time.

The group that did not bring snack had to troop up to the sixth-grade Sunday school room, although I got told that at St. Spike's we might have had to meet in something not even that comfortable. The group that brought snack stayed in the comfortably appointed library, with the food .

Charlotte
 

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Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by The Prophetess:
I'm starting the first year of EFM tomorrow evening. I've really been wrestling lately with the question of what I'm called to do with my life, and I'm hoping this will help. Prayers please!

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quote:

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Originally posted by GloriaGloriaGloria:
Back to TRs for a second. Would those of you who have had positive TR-related experiences mind giving the rest of us some examples of different topics that worked well for you? I'd find that very helpful, as I suspect some of the topics my group used last year were ill-suited.

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Here are some things that have worked well in my experience. (And apologies in advance to anyone who's new to EFM reading this; I'll be tossing around a lot of EFM jargon.) The examples below are all variations on the "Microscope method." (Jargon already! )

First, if you're starting out with the "Action" source, i.e., someone's experience, it's very important that the experience they are relating is something that's over and done with. If it's an unresolved issue, it's easy for the group to veer off into problem-solving. Another important point for the "Action" source is that the story be told in first person. The experience has to have happened to the person telling it, because it's the emotional shifts of the story, not the event itself, that give us the window we are going to work in.
It can be fun to use something from "Culture" as the source. My former mentor would bring in interesting stuff -- a kaliedoscope, an old bird's nest that had fallen in her yard -- from which we would then brainstorm a metaphor. I remember on the kaliedoscope one we used a verse from my favorite hymn (#657, Hyfrodol) -- "Changed from glory into glory" -- when we moved into the tradition source. Also, cartoons and news items work well as a source from the "Culture" side. We had a great one based on an old "Far Side" cartoon: it showed a bunch of animals, two-by-two, storming the gates at NASA, with the guard on the PA system saying, "I dunno, Captain, but *something's* about to go down!" News items -- articles or photographs -- can be a great source. They also work well if you're going to do an "Issues method" reflection. Finally, using Scripture as a source works very well, especially if you vary the format a little and talk about the story from each character's point of view, then ask where each person sees themselves in the story.

The trick for the mentor, when using these different source materials, is remembering which of the four source areas (Action, Tradition, Culture, or Position) you started in so that you can be sure to bring in the three other areas during the discussion.

I hope this helps and that it is not too cryptic!

[ 26. September 2006, 22:30: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
 

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Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
Well, I'm in after all for this year. The local EFM group was delayed getting organized this year (hunting for numbers and mentor), had an "are you interested" dinner last night, and, what can I say, I am. I've been too isolated this past year not doing it.

We'll be starting up for real in November, and then meet for nine months but taking June/July/August off. It looks like we'll be mostly third years, with probably one each of the other years. It promises to be quite a one-room schoolhouse experience this year.

[ 02. October 2006, 14:40: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
 

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Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
So glad to see that you've landed into a group for this year, AR. I know how dicey it is getting the requisite numbers into place. I've inherited two new people from a church that had two viable groups and then the program collapsed. There are always ups and downs.
My group is almost all Year 3's, too (including the two new members). They've made it through the first four weeks (which are not well-edited IMO, but it gets better). We're doing something new for the "Stepping Stones" Spiritual Autobiography format. Each week, each person relates one stepping stone. It's been really interesting comparing where we all were at various points. It will be interesting to see how it all pans out. It's clearly less emotionally exhausting -- at least it is so far.
I hope everyone else's group is off to a good start.
 

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Posted by Melisande (# 4177) on :
 
I've gone back to EFM at my old church. I'd finished years 1 & 2, then took last year off with a newborn, and am now back in the group.

This year, we have a huge group -- 14, including mentors, one of whom is a year 4 student -- and the new approach to the lessons is that each of us presents for discussion the one point from our lesson that jumped out at us, whether it resonated, made us angry, confused us, etc. It's been working better than I'd thought it would -- it's almost eliminated the endless "and then this guy said this, and then this other guy called him a heretic" recitations we used to get, and it keeps a relative lid on the talky folks. It does mean that I have much less idea than I used to of what the other lessons are actually about, but I think it's worth it.
 

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Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
Mamacita, now that we're into the Stepping Stones autobiography, I understand what you're saying .

How big is your group this year? Do you have any problems with the weekly Stepping Stones from everyone taking up too much time?

Our group is working on shortening our check-in which had grown simply enormous. We did it in about 20 minutes last night; whereas 45 minutes or more had not been unusual.

What kinds of things do people say in the check-in? What's the balance between a five second "I'm here and feeling <insert adjective of choice>" vs. a 5 minute travelogue of the past week? What's the purpose of check-in?

We're 10 in all now: 1 4th year; 4 3rd years; 1 2nd year (me); 3 1st years; and 1 mentor. I'm glad there are several 1st years because I think it could be harder to be both just starting EFM and figuring out how it works, and the only person in your year.
 

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Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
Thanks AR. I have 9 in my group: two Year 2s, 6 Year 3s, 1 Year 4. We're still doing Stepping Stones, in part because of some absences, and in part because I have a few really talky people. It's a struggle for me, because I want the time to be distributed more evenly between people and because we're all reaching a "let's get on with it" point. However, they have each been through some horrible stuff and want to tell their stories; they've also become more articulate every year on voicing how they've seen God in action during some really bad times. So I want to honor their giving, as well. Still, last week one of the more reticent members griped to me (in private) about how "It's past Thanksgiving and we've only done one TR." Well, she's right, and I'm going to set aside an hour for TR each week, and let the stepping stones fall as they may. One thing we're doing with the "stepping stones" theme is building an altar -- I bought some stones at a craft store and each person puts a stone on the "altar" (a wood tray with a big candle) when they're finished. We'll use our altar all year, and it will bear witness to our collective stories. (I have a feeling I already mentioned this... if so, apologies for being redundant.)
As to check-in time, I have some music playing as people come in the room, and we gab for 5 minutes or so at the beginning. I very seldom do a standard go-around-the-table thing. If I do a planned on-board exercise, it's more of a thought piece, like giving them an open-ended question they can answer in one line. The questions tend to be around ministry, or around one of the four themes of Creation/Sin/Repentence/Resurrection. Sometimes I'll give them a silly question, e.g., "what would be the weather report for the week you've just had?" All these allow some reflection and keep the answers short. (Which, with the three "talkers" in my group, is a blessing.) The example given in a previous post -- about stating one idea from your readings -- is another good way to do this. I hope that helps. I love hearing about other peoples' EFM groups!
 

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Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
Sorry, missed the edit window. I'm not sure I answered AR's question directly about the PURPOSE of check-in time, but I think it's a fair, and necessary, question. I've seen a lot of posts on this (and an earlier EFM thread) complaining about check-ins that drag on and on. I think the purpose of a check-in would be to help people transition from their everyday lives into the sacred space of EFM. I don't think that's necessarily well-served by doing a standard go-around-the-table. As I mentioned, I have some music playing as people come in the room, and we just have informal conversation as people are coming in. If there's a serious issue going on with people, like a family illness or a work situation, of course we'll ask for an update. People have been good about not abusing the time. For doing a go-around-the-table, I'd rather spend that time having folks answer a question related to our readings or that somehow contributes to their understanding and development.
 

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Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
Apologies for the triple-post (well, I waited a decent interval....) but I wondered if anyone else's group is doing something for Christmas. We're having a potluck at my house (I'm the most centrally-located; my group comes from several different suburbs). What else are folks doing? Any special liturgies, that sort of thing?
 

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Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
I don't think we're doing anything special. We've had two potlucks already this fall, so I don't think there will be a strongly felt need for a particularly different gathering. Someone may bring surprise cookies and cider or something. (Hmmm, maybe that someone could be me .) (We don't have a regular refreshment rota.) We meet Monday nights, and will take off Christmas and New Year's Day.

Thanks for the info about the stepping stones. We've been doing the bios about 3 per night, with the plan to do them all and then start the material. We just give each person 20-30 minutes (varies a bit depending on how many are there), and give them a 10- and a 5- minute warning.

We're finishing up bios next week and starting our first chapter. (Recall that we only got going in November.)

In my group, the people who have been in longer seem to have more of a feeling of "I've told this at least 2x already, what's to add?"

For me, doing it this time around, a lot of the trauma that I recall expressing the last time I did my bio (Snapshots), is no longer there; and overarching themes covering broad spans of getting my formative religious grounding in church, drifting away, seeking solace, and coming back have emerged.
 

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Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
Heh heh, have begun to read. Am reminded of what I overwhelmed myself with in my first year of EFM: all the Additional Sources. Which I paralyzed myself by thinking I had to acquire and read all of them. (The "acquiring" is plausible given that I work for a college and can get almost anything via Interlibrary Loan... the "reading" much less so!)

What does anyone else do with all the additional sources available to be read? Ignore completely? Delve into occasionally? Skim all?

This year I want to be less book-reading obsessed and more experiential and journal-focussed.
 

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Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
It looks very quiet. Anyone here? I'm reaching all the way back to the first page for this, but it speaks to what's on my EFM mind right now:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mamacita:

quote:

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Originally posted by Paige:
I find that TRs are the glue that holds multi-year groups together, and that they were the missing ingredient to my own EFM experience. Any thoughts on that?

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It always boggles my mind when I find out about EFM groups that don't do TRs. Without the TRs, you basically have a Bible Study class. You don't have to slavishly do them week after week, but doing them often is critical. (Critical for two reasons: One, because doing TRs is a learned skill, for both the mentor and the participants, and the more you do, the better you get at it. Two, because the insights that come from TRs are, IMNSHO, where the personal growth occurs in EFM.)

---

Actually, I'm so mad right now I could spit. My EFM group is perhaps revolting against TR's. We started late this year so we've only had 2 with our new mentor who's much more sympathetic to them and understanding of them than the previous 2 mentors were! So people might think, "ah takes time to learn, let's persist." But noooooo, everyone thinks "TRs are complicated and contrived and confusing and worthless" instead of thinking "aaaah, maybe if we practice we'll learn to understand this and how to do it and what the point is."

I'm afraid we're going to degenerate into our prior pattern of a gabfest of mushiness. It's easy to sit around and shoot the breeze about stuff, but I think the structured method of TRs EFM gives, confusing as it seems at first, must be worth it in terms of training one to pay attention to certain things specifically. Also you really need an hour to get to the point of working things through and really complete it in terms of getting to "what difference does this make?" and creating the final collect and praying it, which makes a huge difference also.

I don't know how to get inside people's minds and persuade them of the value of them. It's like the method is too complicated for people to see what the goal of it is, and people don't have the heart to grapple with something complicated and apparently pointless for the sake of seeing if eventually they learn it.
 

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Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
AR, it's great that your new mentor supports doing TRs. Have you called him/her to say how much you appreciate doing them (or taken a couple of seconds after the meeting to comment on it)? My group has a lot of outspoken folks (and I encourage that, for better or worse ), and they don't hesitate to let me know if they liked or didn't like a particular activity. And I love that and think it helps. Some of them have been annoyed that we took soooooo long with Spiritual Autobiographies this year that we barely started TRs before Christmas.

I can really picture the people in your group griping about not getting the point of TRs. It really does take time to "get it." (Also, there are a few individuals who are so decidedly left-brained that they can't go with a process that's so non-linear; but I think that's the minority of folk.) Sometimes the mentor has to vary the TR method. (There are a bunch of different methods outlined in Section Two of your Common Lessons book. Also, there are a couple of new methods circulating out there -- one is a method for using a film or TV show, another one is called the "Provocative Word" method.) If your group is using the Microscope Method, it can be helpful to try using different sources: instead of starting out with a story ("Action"), you can start out with a passage from scripture or a hymn or even a classical religious painting ("Tradition"), or with a cartoon, newspaper article, or even a quotation from Ship of Fools! ("Culture"). I tell my group that varying the sources is like "Going in through a different window."

Finally -- and I mean this sincerely -- have you ever thought about going for mentor training yourself? There are a lot of trained mentors out there who don't run groups. They just help out their group's mentor by leading or co-leading TRs from time to time. You can check the Sewanee website for the training schedule.

Sorry to be so long-winded and opinionated, but I'm passionate about this program!
 

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Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
Sorry, missed the Edit Window. You don't have to have completed the 4 years in order to go to mentor training. I've run into people there who are in their 3rd or 4th year... and 2nd isn't unheard-of.)
 

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Posted by RainbowKate (# 9331) on :
 
AR, just wanted to send support along. I finished EFM in '05 and loved it.

We didn't do formal TR's too often, maybe 2-3 times a year, but my group also tended to do them spontaneously too, which I think in general is unusual. Maybe there needs to be some honest discussion about why some people don't want to do them. I tended to feel that you had to risk yourself a bit doing TR's. Maybe the trust isin't there just yet?

My second year was the worst becuase of some troubling group dynamics and TR's were difficult to do because of that. People didn't want to share too much or step out on a limb, which did lead to a contrived feeling. It was also a year in which "check-in" seemed to dominate the group. Our mentor really had to put her foot down about keeping things short. The troubling dynamic left the next year, and things got back to normal.

Anyway, don't know if that helps at all, but will keep you in prayers.
 

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Posted by RainbowKate (# 9331) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:

What does anyone else do with all the additional sources available to be read? Ignore completely? Delve into occasionally? Skim all?

---

I almost never read the additional sources. Working full time meant that I could manage the text readings and that was about it. I seemed to do fine despite that. And now that I'm done a few of us who graduated together have started a book group to read some of those additional sources, etc. It's been fun.
 

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Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
Thanks, Mamacita and Rainbow Kate.

Mamacita, funny you should mention mentor training -- I've been thinking this fall that I would like to be an EFM mentor after I finish. I've been trying not to be Miss Know-It-All Junior Mentor (Untrained) this fall (like a Junior Host, but twice as irritating). One thing I have to work on in any group (EFM or not!) is humility, to realize that I don't have all the answers and need to learn by listening to others. Not to mention charitably letting other people get a word in edgewise .

Rainbow Kate, I guess you could say our group is used (over the past 2 years) to doing informal TRs. That is, discussing some topic, usually that emerges from the checkin, with reference to God and our Christian understandings/obligations during the second half of the meeting time.

The next-to-last mentor along with the group I think had never clicked with TR. Our last mentor, for the past 2 years, said the method was really just a way to get a theological conversation going, so if we were having a theological conversation by some other means, that was fine.

What I see as a risk of us casting aside the TR method too quickly without trying to learn it, is that I think the point is to train us in some specific ways of thinking -- to think systematically compare/contrast Tradition, Culture, Personal, Action (have I got those 4 right?), and to systematicalliy think about Sin/Redemption in a variety of situations (they've got 4 for those also, but I can't remember the other 2 -- see, that's part of what I want to learn). And by doing those things consistently across a wide variety of incidents, to come to a lot more unexpected learnings than if we just do whatever feels natural to us in our usual way of talking about things.

Our new current mentor also queried the using of something from checkin, since that causes the incident discussed to usually be an unfinished one, with the risks of devolving into problem solving that carries.

Interesting that Mamacita cites the EFM TR methods as left-brain. I'm that odd animal, someone who is simultaneously iconoclastic and ritualist, structured and free-flowing -- so I like the structure that using a method offers, and am simultaneously happy to engage in non-linear and even non-literal thinking -- e.g. around the "metaphor" steps -- which I think at the moment is the part MOST mystifying to the group.

[capital M]

[ 15. January 2007, 19:23: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
 

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Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 

quote:

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Originaly said by me:
Interesting that Mamacita cites the EFM TR methods as left-brain.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Actually, I'm so mad right now I could spit. My EFM group is perhaps revolting against TR's. We started late this year so we've only had 2 with our new mentor who's much more sympathetic to them and understanding of them than the previous 2 mentors were! So people might think, "ah takes time to learn, let's persist." But noooooo, everyone thinks "TRs are complicated and contrived and confusing and worthless" instead of thinking "aaaah, maybe if we practice we'll learn to understand this and how to do it and what the point is."

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
RuthW, thanks for a bracingly different view on them.

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You're very kind! Either that or "bracingly different" is code for "pissy."

quote:

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You're in your 2nd year of EFM too, IIRC? Do you think it would be possible to have a theologically-based discussion in your EFM group similar to the kinds of things you do learn from e.g. the Ship etc., that would be worthwhile to you?

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quote:

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Our group discussed them and we're returning overall to a more free-flowing way of working the discussion. This includes TR in the way we've done them the past two years, rather than following the specific methods.

There's a general feeling of most in the group that the TR methods of the EFM materials prioritize process over content.

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quote:

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Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:

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Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
RuthW, thanks for a bracingly different view on them.

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You're very kind! Either that or "bracingly different" is code for "pissy."

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Uh-oh, rumbled!

Will be interested to hear how the changes in your group go. Are we turning into each other?!?!? I just came across this in the Sunday School for the Unchurched thread:

quote:

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Originally posted by Francesca Shelbellini:
going within the story, wondering what part applies to their life, wondering about where God is in the story: really, it engages children in thinking theologically.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Laura:
That said, we had an extraordinary group. I can remember several times in the first two years especially when the Spirit blew through us like a wind.

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Just the fact that this overthinky Episcopalian doubter I once was could even write the above is a sign of the effect EFM had on me. Old me would have crinkled in embarrassment to write such a thing.
 

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Posted by Francesca Shelbellini (# 53) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:

I just came across this in the Sunday School for the Unchurched thread:

quote:

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Originally posted by Francesca Shelbellini:
going within the story, wondering what part applies to their life, wondering about where God is in the story: really, it engages children in thinking theologically.

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It hit me right between the eyes. Is theological reflection really that simple at base?

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quote:

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Our mentors are third-year students in their second year of mentoring, and they can't come up with a point other than "it teaches you to think theologically"

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quote:

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The microscope method seems particularly stupid; analyzing a contrived metaphor for something seems like a complete waste of time to me.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
Ruth, where are you in Year 2? We started in October, so we're doing Lesson 16 this coming week.

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quote:

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I still agree with you about the materials. I kvetch about them a lot. My copy of Brown's "An Introduction to the New Testament" and the class discussion help me out considerably.

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quote:

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When I thought it [the tuition] was going for things like training mentors, I was slightly less ticked, but now I've learned that they have to pay for the training.

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• Study of OT, NT, church history, theology, in a four year period.
• Worship together.
• Theological reflection at least broadly defined.
• Trained mentor.
• Use of Sewanee's materials (*)

A characteristic available in mixed-year groups is group discussions that can reflect and enrich off each other being at different years (one room schoolhouse).

And perhaps most obviously, that, whatever the content, this is done in a group rather than alone. Or more correctly, an interplay between alone stuff (reading, preparing, pondering) and together stuff (during the meeting).

(*) Yearly materials include: 34 chapters on the year's subject, suggested questions to ponder, suggestions of additional sources.

Common Lesson Materials include material on spiritual autobiographies, thinking theologically, life in Christ, theological frameworks, looking to the future, and a few other topics but I haven't got my book with me.
 

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Posted by Izzybee (# 10931) on :
 
Wow - EFM sounds absolutely fascinating! I went to their website and read the material for the first class, and found myself really interested. It's a shame I don't regularly attend Church and would be too scared to join a group even if it was offered to me.

*sigh* I'm going to start looking for books that cover the same material though
 

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Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
Izzybee - One of the members of my group is a believer but not a church-goer. Don't let that hold you back!
 

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Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
We just had our first session last night. (When we got the program going at our church six years ago, we started late and it just continued that way.)

I've gotten into (co-)mentoring again and this time I think I really get TR rather than just knowing how to go through the steps. We are finding it really helps if we explain why we are doing what we are doing.It also helps to let the conversation flow within each step and quietly point out when we've touched on action/culture/position/tradition as we go along. That way we don't flog a point to death and can pull in areas missed without going through the whole list.

Does anyone else have trouble with fuzziness between "Repentance" and "Redemption"? in TR? Sometimes it seems that once the Aha! Of Repentance has been discovered, just getting the Aha! is the Redemptive key.
 

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Posted by Choirboy (# 9659) on :
 
Silly question - how does one go about finding an EfM group?
 

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Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
The EFM Coordinator for your Diocese, listed at EFM's website might be able to point you towards one.

(I don't know why they call them "Judicatory Coordinators" on the webpage -- that sounds awfully scary compared to what the description says they actually do!)
 

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Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Does anyone else have trouble with fuzziness between "Repentance" and "Redemption"? in TR? Sometimes it seems that once the Aha! Of Repentance has been discovered, just getting the Aha! is the Redemptive key.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
The EFM Coordinator for your Diocese, listed at EFM's website might be able to point you towards one.

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Hah! I even know him. I'm seeing him tonight for another meeting.

Thanks very much!
 

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Posted by Evensnog (# 8017) on :
 
Ruth, you've no idea how much less alone I feel, after reading your comments. I've been having a really toxic EFM experience this year - I now despise TRs; the dynamics of my group couldn't be more hostile; and I'm wishing I had all those hundreds of dollars back - I should have put them towards my vacation fund instead.

Last week, someone in my group described the TR process (as experienced in our group) as feeling like a "non-consensual pop-spiritual circle-jerk." Sadly, that description feels pretty accurate.
 

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Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
It does help to know you're not alone, doesn't it?!

It appears that our group may have hit bottom and be getting better. Thank goodness.
 

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Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Evensnog:
non-consensual pop-spiritual circle-jerk

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OMG, that is perfect. I'm going to remember that. In fact, I'm going to print it out and tape it to the inside of my mentor notebook. It will be my voice of conscience.

You all make me want to be a better mentor. You keep me vigilant. I wish you guys were having a better experience.

[edited to eliminate utter incoherence, I hope]

[ 02. February 2007, 16:22: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
 

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Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
Evensnog & RuthW, are your groups single- or mixed-year? What kinds of bad/hostile group dynamics do they have? (Curious to understand more about how groups work. Or don't work .)
 

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Posted by Amazing Grace (# 95) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Evensnog:
Ruth, you've no idea how much less alone I feel, after reading your comments. I've been having a really toxic EFM experience this year - I now despise TRs; the dynamics of my group couldn't be more hostile; and I'm wishing I had all those hundreds of dollars back - I should have put them towards my vacation fund instead.

Last week, someone in my group described the TR process (as experienced in our group) as feeling like a "non-consensual pop-spiritual circle-jerk." Sadly, that description feels pretty accurate.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Evensnog & RuthW, are your groups single- or mixed-year? What kinds of bad/hostile group dynamics do they have? (Curious to understand more about how groups work. Or don't work .)

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Evensnog & RuthW, are your groups single- or mixed-year? What kinds of bad/hostile group dynamics do they have? (Curious to understand more about how groups work. Or don't work .)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mamacita:
Theological Reflection. It's a type of guided discussion in which the participants try to draw connections between their faith and their daily lives.

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Unfortunately (if I may resurrect a moribund thread - if I may mix my metonymies) in EFM the connections are usually between cataclysmic scriptural events - (tonight's was the arrest in the Garden) with relatively minor personal events (an ingrown toenail, a flu injection) with the Virginia shooting thrown in as a further comparison.

Excuse me: 33 dead has a connection to an ingrown toenail has a connection to the arrest and journey to Crucifixion? Yeah right.

I have concerns.
 

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Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
Always glad to have this thread resurrected, or at least resuscitated. I want to throw my two cents' into this, because there are a couple of things in the OP that send up red flags for me, but I'm about to leave for a diocesan thing this evening.

In the meantime, Zappa, can you tell us a little about the mentor of the group in question and the group itself (e.g., is it mixed-years or mostly beginners)? And what your chief concerns are? (I have concerns too, I just don't want to assume that yours and mine are the same.)

Would love to see the other experienced EFMers here weigh in on this too. Great discussion (re)-starter!

[ 18. April 2007, 21:55: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
 

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Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
Have we been left to each write our own creative fleshing out of Zappa's TR? [evil grin]I can so imagine making a cautionary skit "How not to do a TR"[/evil grin]

Anyone have Year 2 thoughts?

I am, due to falling behind & now trying to catch up, reading each of the Gospels in a week , about to embark on John. Actually, I'm cutting to the Acts commentary momentarily, following the Raymond Brown's order. (The benefits of being the sole year 2 in my group!) Still!

It's like reading the NT from a firehose. Not sure if taking 2 weeks per Gospel, as EFM schedules, would help that much more. Makes me realize how seldom I read and think about the Gospels as a whole. Snippets parcelled out week by week in the lectionary. (I'm not, mea culpa, a daily lectionary reader, but even that I believe wouldn't have the cumulative effect of reading all the Gospels in quick succession.)

Wierdly, it has me grappling with, and flattened by, the notion of Gospels written differently for different audiences. Watching the changes in Mark that Matthew makes, smoothing out the edges. I hadn't realed I was hoping to find THE TRUTH during year 2 of EFM, but there it is, turns out I was.

Even grappling with the contradictory things said within any one Gospel is mind-blowing.

I'm partly looking forward to the Epistles -- still hoping come to understand them zzzzzappp immediately upon reading the EFM and Brown chapters about them -- and partly thinking Year 2 is just a staging area for a lifetime of ever-bemused study of this ever-baffling collection of books.

I do like Acts -- lots of action!

What does anyone think? Similar/different experience?

[ 26. April 2007, 21:45: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
 

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Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
(clarifying something I don't think I said clearly the first time)

What surprises me about being flattened by the differences, is that -- although I've known about that in my head for a long time, and given it lip service, and done a very few comparisons of specific passages to see "Oh, yes, Luke is concerned with this, Matthew with that, etc." -- and thought I accepted it all -- but what surprises me, is how very unsettling I'm finding it right now.

[ 26. April 2007, 21:52: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
 

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Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
I have *got* to get me a copy of Brown. Sadly, I won't have any Y2s in my group next year, and I had probably best spend my summer reacquainting myself with the OT and some of the great commentaries recommeded by the Keryg crowd.

AR, one piece of advice I got from an old mentor, and which I now pass on is, if you get hopelessly behind, just skip what you missed and devote yourself to the upcoming week's reading. (And promise yourself you'll read what you missed over the summer.) You would do well to spend the time on John, as he's not an easy read! (There's also a pretty cool Keryg discussion thread on John if you want to kill a few hours!)

In the upcoming chapters on the Epistles, you might have seen in the table of contents that you get three weeks on Romans. That's a good time to sink your teeth into Paul's theology. If you get behind on some of the other Epistles, you'll still have a good grounding with Romans.

And yes, I think you've made a wonderful point about this year being a foundation that you can revisit as the Gospels are read for the rest of your life. Sometimes I think we're getting such a shallow read of things in EFM, but then, I sit in church on Sundays and realize that I (speaking for all EFMers) know more about the lections than a lot of the folks in the pews.

Zappa? I've been thinking so much about your observation and, yeah, sometimes the TRs just fall flat. I've seen it get kind of dicey when it comes time in the TR to identify the high point of the story (or the metaphor or whatever) with some moment in one's own life. I guess some folks either live very dull lives or, more likely, engage in so little self-reflection that they just don't bring much to the party.

On the other hand, I've got one woman in the group who takes off on such personal tangents during TRs that it's all I can do not to jump across the room and throttle her. She's been away for two weeks and it's so much more relaxed... (I am an evil mentor.)
 

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Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
Three weeks on Romans? I'm dreading the Epistles now! Though I should probably be dreading it more if it were 1 week!

I'm not as behind as it seems -- we're off-cycle so taking a break for July & August but not actually finishing the "year" until October.

I like Brown's sections setting the location and audience of each NT book, and the issues raised by it. Sewanee's materials are leaving me rather colder at the moment. Though there's several chapters on historical Jesus research which I think lead up to talking about coming out with faith on the other side, which I'm looking forward to. (ETA: "faith on the other side" -- meaning, historical Jesus research can't find all the answers, and there's something else. Since it's HJR that started me reading the Bible a lot, this is close to me and the things I puzzle over.)

I still wish our TRs were as concrete as starting with a story, identifying the high/energy point, etc. However, we have reached an agreed place of explicitly trying to dig deeper and apply what we're reading in our lives, so that's good.

I think there's a TR course at the seminary, which I'd like to take.

[ 27. April 2007, 03:56: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
 

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Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mamacita:
In the meantime, Zappa, can you tell us a little about the mentor of the group in question and the group itself (e.g., is it mixed-years or mostly beginners)? And what your chief concerns are? (I have concerns too, I just don't want to assume that yours and mine are the same.)

---

Oops. Sorry. Forgot to check back on this thread!

It's a mixed years group (with an outed "mole", too! ) I'm there by invitation as an observer, although I have been a mentor in the past.

I'm afraid I'm not articulate enough to - er - articulate my concerns. It's just that somehow in the process of making connections between experience and tradition groups groups always manage to make crucifixions out of ingrown toenails. I've never in 20 years on and off heard a connection made between a life experience and something more mundanely prosaic in the narrative tradition (say a "begat" or someone meeting someone or something boringly unmelodramatic like that).

At one level this could give a sense that yes, our lives are enormously dramatic/important to God. On the other hand, realistically, is my ingrown toenail really a comparable to the cry of dereliction from the Cross, or my missed phone call really a Forty year experience in the wilderness?

Is there room for ennui in EFM?

I dunno. I guess I'm not putting it very well. Don't worry about it. I'm just a dry (would-be) academic . Or maybe I'm a voice, crying in the wilderness, a prophet walking through a city, a prophet without honour in his her ... whateva
 

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Posted by Amazing Grace (# 95) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Three weeks on Romans? I'm dreading the Epistles now! Though I should probably be dreading it more if it were 1 week!

I'm not as behind as it seems -- we're off-cycle so taking a break for July & August but not actually finishing the "year" until October.

I like Brown's sections setting the location and audience of each NT book, and the issues raised by it. Sewanee's materials are leaving me rather colder at the moment. Though there's several chapters on historical Jesus research which I think lead up to talking about coming out with faith on the other side, which I'm looking forward to. (ETA: "faith on the other side" -- meaning, historical Jesus research can't find all the answers, and there's something else. Since it's HJR that started me reading the Bible a lot, this is close to me and the things I puzzle over.)

I still wish our TRs were as concrete as starting with a story, identifying the high/energy point, etc. However, we have reached an agreed place of explicitly trying to dig deeper and apply what we're reading in our lives, so that's good.

---

We have good days, and bad days on that. I'm a lot more "engaged" than last year. Sewanee's materials have had the occasional "hit" for me this year, though. (Otherwise it's, "ok, so I spent $340 for *this* crap?")

I was scheduled to co-lead Common Lesson 5 (Finding your Ministry) but was unwell .

You'll want the three weeks on Romans! It is rather the heart of the matter.

I've been rather struck by the time-warp thing - Gospels written after most of the Epistles.

My only beef at the moment, and it's minor, is that one of our number now goes on a lot of sidebar conversations (or needs to do a lot of "sharing") and it's lengthy waiting for her to finish. I love her but it's driving me bugs.

Charlotte
 

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Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zappa:
Is there room for ennui in EFM?

---

Not intentionally, but ennui manages to march in and sit her fat ass down.

I've been struggling with her the last several weeks. That may seem strange (or perhaps a comeuppance) to the readers of this thread, since I'm usually the one playing EFM Cheerleader. The sad truth is, I haven't put the mental work into preparing myself to lead TRs. We've had some good discussions on the text, but I haven't had the mental energy to lead a decent TR in a couple of months.

When TRs work -- and I have seen them work -- they can be transformative experiences, truly Christian formation at its best. I guess TRs are like sex. Sometimes the earth moves. Sometimes they're just "nice." Sometimes...

Well, *somebody's* had a little too much pino grigio, and needs to get to sleep.
 

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Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
What mental work do you find goes into preparing to lead TRs?

My within-the-ranks encouragement mode goes like this: "story, high point, four facets (society/tradition/faith/action), four jargon thingies (sin/repentance/redemption/...)". Then I try to see if I can be detached enough from the conversation to remember if I can ask or add one of those, in a way that fits in the conversation.

As you can see, I haven't mastered the four jargon thingies! Plus I need to learn the non-jargon questions/words for them.
 

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Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
My group had a terrific year-end celebration last night. (I have the headache to prove it.) There was one thing that really knocked my socks off: when I presented our one graduate with her certificate, she started crying and said, "This is my first diploma." Now, I had heard her spiritual autobiography four times and knew somewhere in the back of my mind that she had been a high school dropout, but this is one of those things where the significance of it just doesn't click until you're right there in the moment. It was very touching and humbling.

How did things end up for the rest of you? (I know not everyone is on an academic-year schedule.) Plans to continue next year?
 

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Posted by Evensnog (# 8017) on :
 
Oh, Mamacita, that is so touching! I'm a bit weepy, just reading about it.

We've got one last class this year. As you may remember, my group was experiencing some very rocky, toxic dynamics. It got a bit better, the most disruptive member of the group transfered to another group.

We stopped doing TRs ages ago, because they always turned into discussions about extremely personal issues and ingrown toenails (ie, comparing someone's adulthood experience with incontinence to the Crucifixion). While I know a few of the newer group members were disappointed in the lack of TR as Road To Damascus Experience, it did make the sessions run more smoothly.

We've also glossed over most of the Common Lessons, so I'm curious to hear if others have actually been doing them, finding them useful, etc.

As far as next year - I don't know, yet. I definitely have issues with aspects of the program, but there are parts I truly enjoy. I've heard that many consider the Yr 2 materials to be the most poorly written - thoughts on this? What's the quality of the Yr 3 stuff?

[ 06. June 2007, 19:23: Message edited by: Evensnog ]
 

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Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
Mamacita, what a great story.

Evensnog, in my group the Common Lessons (apart from Common Lesson 2 on Theological Reflection ) reliably spark good discussions, where people feel engaged rather than "whatever was this all about?" We space the CL's out over the year and devote several weeks to discussing each one, where the CL takes the place of the resentful half-hearted pseudo-TR we would otherwise be doing.
 

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Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
Evensnog, we spent about 3 weeks each on Common Lessons 3, 4, and 5. The CL&SM book has quite a lot of material for each of them, and I sometimes bring in other questions or exercises to play with around the same topic. (I was blessed to have a terrific mentor, and I'm so glad I kept a lot of my old material from her.)

I have to do another mentor certification this summer and hope to take the "advanced TR" course.

quote:

---

TR as Road To Damascus Experience

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LOL! Somebody earlier on this thread said that TRs were a lot like sex; sometimes the earth moves and sometimes it doesn't.
 

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Posted by TubaMirum (# 8282) on :
 
We will be finished in another couple of weeks.

I did like EFM, and plan to continue with Year 2 next year. I've read books of the Bible I've been meaning to read for ages - like all of Isaiah, for one. And I'd never read Judges before, which believe it or not I loved. I liked my group, and we did have some good discussions; I think that will probably continue next year, because most of us were Year 1. I liked having multiple years in one group, even though at first I couldn't picture how it would work. It makes it much more interesting.

What a great story, Mamacita. That brings tears to my eyes, too.
 

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Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
TubaMirum, what did you love about Judges?

~ ~ ~

I've been thinking about how EFM, as a self-motivated adult course, rewards as much as I put in. And if I don't put in a lot, it doesn't reward me as much as if I put in more.

If I expect it to be a particular way, it can be disappointing when meetings don't go into what I wanted to hear about. This week I realized I need to be less controlling about how I want it to be. Put in my preparation outside, and then go willing to allow it to be however it is that week.

I've been poking about the Canada EFM website and found some links about group dynamics (e.g. this one). Group dynamics fascinates me and is important for me to understand better, to be able to figure out how to function in groups of the EFM size -- I just realized tonight (after two years of EFM!) that this is exactly the size of group that I have the hardest time understanding how to function in.

I'll definitely continue because I want to see it all the way through. It's good for me to have a focussed "once-through" on all these topics, even if it is like drinking from a firehose. Also it is my weekly regular "have a churchly group outside of church" group, which since I haven't got such a group at my own church, I'm glad of, and don't want to have to go scrounging for another one prematurely!

[ 07. June 2007, 02:08: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
 

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Posted by Amazing Grace (# 95) on :
 
Thank you for bumping the thread.

Before I start talking about end of year (we have one more to go), can anyone recommend some good reference books for year 3 (church history) that are aimed at intelligent laypeople? (Instead of being for academics.)

The Raymond Brown "An Introduction to the New Testament" was a big win for Year 2. Thank you.

Charlotte
 

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Posted by maleveque (# 132) on :
 
The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church is incredibly valuable for years 3 & 4.
Also, throw out, right now, all the stupid non-church history stuff in the EFM binders. Especially that philosophy-in-a-nutshell crap that doesn't do anyone any good. If you had it in college, you're fine. If you didn't, you're not going to get it from EFM. And if you want it, there are way better places to get it from.
Now that our church has a new (YAY!! ) rector, we're probably going to have an EFM group starting in the fall. I will probably co-mentor the group with a friend who has a PhD in pastoral counseling. This is good, because the pastoral stuff is my weakest point and I can learn a lot from her.
Has anyone had experience with co-mentoring? Is it something much done in EFM?
Anne L.
eta: a question mark

[ 07. June 2007, 02:45: Message edited by: maleveque ]
 

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Posted by TubaMirum (# 8282) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
TubaMirum, what did you love about Judges?

---

Well, I'd always seen the name, and assumed it had to do with the Law and old solemn men in long black robes. Yawn.

But no! Little did I know it was about whackjobs in the desert! And the stories are great - cinematic, really. I can't understand why they haven't made a movie out of it.

Seriously, I liked the characters and the stories. It wasn't a bunch of Holy Joes at all, which was a bit of relief at that point from all the hectoring about golden calves and whatnot. (Of course, we end up with more hectoring later, with all the harlots in the prophets.)
 

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Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by maleveque:
I will probably co-mentor the group with a friend who has a PhD in pastoral counseling. This is good, because the pastoral stuff is my weakest point and I can learn a lot from her.
Has anyone had experience with co-mentoring? Is it something much done in EFM?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TubaMirum:
I can't understand why they haven't made a movie out of it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Campbellite:

quote:

---

Originally posted by TubaMirum:
I can't understand why they haven't made a movie out of it.

---

I guess you've never seen this little Cecil B. DeMille number?

---

I forgot about that. I think I did see it once, way back - but the book was better.
 

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Posted by TubaMirum (# 8282) on :
 
I wanted to say that I don't know the difference between "Common Lessons" and "Theological Reflections."

I know the CLs are in the other BOB (Big Old Book) - but aren't Theological Reflections part of the Common Lessons themselves?

I'm a bit confused about this, I guess....
 

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Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
You're right, TubaMirum. The CLs in the BOB include an explanation of TRs. They also include lots of other stuff.

Common Lesson 2 explains Theological Reflection methods. This is in some ways an "informational" Common Lesson about something that in principle AIUI is part of many of the group's sessions all year.

This is similar in my mind to Common Lesson 1 which explains Spiritual Autobiography methods so the group can use them.

Other Common Lessons break out of "what shall we do in the group" and go into the rest of our faith and ministry life. They include (with the Year A specific subtopics in parentheses):

• CL3 Life in Christ (Sabbath Time)
• CL4 Theological Frameworks (Mapping Your System of Theology)
• CL5 Looking to the Future (Planning Your Ministry)

quote:

---

Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
You're right, TubaMirum. The CLs in the BOB include an explanation of TRs. They also include lots of other stuff.

Common Lesson 2 explains Theological Reflection methods. This is in some ways an "informational" Common Lesson about something that in principle AIUI is part of many of the group's sessions all year.

This is similar in my mind to Common Lesson 1 which explains Spiritual Autobiography methods so the group can use them.

Other Common Lessons break out of "what shall we do in the group" and go into the rest of our faith and ministry life. They include (with the Year A specific subtopics in parentheses):

• CL3 Life in Christ (Sabbath Time)
• CL4 Theological Frameworks (Mapping Your System of Theology)
• CL5 Looking to the Future (Planning Your Ministry)

There are more CL's than that -- I think the BOB goes up to chapter 7. (I'm working off my EFM outline without the BOB in front of me.) The first four subsections of each CL go with each of the EFM years A, B, C, D. Then each CL has additional enrichment subsections. I like delving in and browsing the BOB.

---

And we will keep this CL BOB for all four years, correct? I guess I'll get more familiar with it as we go along; I've read what I was supposed to read, but didn't always get the point.

It's sort of hard to figure out what's going on the first year, all in all. There's so much to read, and everything's new.
 

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Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
Yes, yes, and yes!

After 2 years I've just about made peace with the BOB's numbering scheme: "this week's reading will be CL 4.2.(Q).3-49*6c."
 

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Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
I learned very early on to give explicit directions about what pages to read in the BOB. The numbering system is nuts, but hey -- I used to write procedure manuals and training materials, and am convinced that there is NO good page numbering system out there.

Chapters 6 & 7 in the BOB are supplements. Chapter 6 has all kinds of nifty facilitation stuff, and Chapter 7 has a lot of information on liturgy. It's all fun to browse through and try to figure out how to sprinkle this stuff into your group life.
 

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Posted by TubaMirum (# 8282) on :
 
I haven't really read much of the CL book; as I said, it's hard enough to get through the Bible readings and the Chapter. (I never did read Numbers or Joshua!)

But I enjoyed the year and the discussions a lot. And really, it's a good way for us to discipline ourselves to read the Bible, and to get informed about the most recent scholarship. Because of the arguments over homosexuality for the past 20 years or so, I'd had to read some of these things anyway, but was glad to get into more history and more depth in EFM. You can really blame the "religious" right, actually, for my interest in Bible and thus for my taking the course! They've created a monster.

At the end of our TRs, BTW, we always wrote a Collect on the topic of what we'd "come to believe about God" in the TR - another exercise I enjoyed immensely. It's fun to be Cranmer for a few minutes a week!
 

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Posted by Amazing Grace (# 95) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by maleveque:
The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church is incredibly valuable for years 3 & 4.

---

quote:

---

Also, throw out, right now, all the stupid non-church history stuff in the EFM binders. Especially that philosophy-in-a-nutshell crap that doesn't do anyone any good. If you had it in college, you're fine. If you didn't, you're not going to get it from EFM. And if you want it, there are way better places to get it from.

---

quote:

---

Now that our church has a new (YAY!! ) rector, we're probably going to have an EFM group starting in the fall.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TubaMirum:
I haven't really read much of the CL book; as I said, it's hard enough to get through the Bible readings and the Chapter. (I never did read Numbers or Joshua!)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:

quote:

---

Originally posted by TubaMirum:
I haven't really read much of the CL book; as I said, it's hard enough to get through the Bible readings and the Chapter. (I never did read Numbers or Joshua!)

---

You are sooooooo far ahead of what I managed to read in Year 1!

---

quote:

---

The Wisdom stuff is all put into the last class of the year (which I'm sure you know), so we skip a lot now. That's a new system, right?

---

When I started with EFM, 7 or 8 years ago (who's counting?), they took a year and a half to get through the OT. What ultimately happened was that the OT was shrunk down to 1 year and the material that is now Year 4 was expanded, due to student demand and the sheer passage of time since the program was started. (For just one example, there was a lot of demand for information about other faith traditions.) It's too bad that those good sections of the OT get scrunched up at the end of the year, but there isn't an ideal solution. Everyone says they'll read the material over the summer!

[ 09. June 2007, 01:47: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
 

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Posted by TubaMirum (# 8282) on :
 
I love the Wisdom literature above all else in the Hebrew Bible, so I'm sorry there's no time to discuss it. I especially find it nuts that we don't discuss the book of Job! That's surely one of the most important books in the whole Bible - yet it's lumped in with about 7 other things and only one class - the very last! - is alloted to it for discussion. This makes no sense at all.

But at least we do have the recommended supplementary readings. I've never read Job straight through, either, so I will do that as well. But I love Ecclesiastes, too! I can't imagine why they do this, really.

I realize there's an awful lot to cover, but I think maybe they should put the Wisdom literature, at least, back into Year 2. It's crazy to skip it this way.
 

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Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
I think I solidly read Genesis and Exodus in Year 1 of EFM, and not much else. I adore the instructions for the construction of the Tabernacle in Exodus.

I was mostly missing in action the 2nd half of year 1, for a lot of reasons, but it wasn't helped by feeling utterly swamped by the sudden ramp-up of reading halfway through, plus the fact that suddenly the reading started being out of order, and not clearly marked. You'd think you'd marked out what OT passages to read, and start reading the EFM chapter, and find 6 other passages tossed in that you ought to read. Very hard for my systematic soul to cope with!

I'd read most of the OT several years ago, but not with any commentary.

I'm really pleased to have stayed much more on top of the reading in Year 2. It's a new experience to read a whole epistle in one lump, taking in the entire effect rather than pausing to nitpick each sentence.
 

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Posted by maleveque (# 132) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amazing Grace:

quote:

---

Originally posted by maleveque:
The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church is incredibly valuable for years 3 & 4.

---

OK, I've already got that.

quote:

---

Also, throw out, right now, all the stupid non-church history stuff in the EFM binders. Especially that philosophy-in-a-nutshell crap that doesn't do anyone any good. If you had it in college, you're fine. If you didn't, you're not going to get it from EFM. And if you want it, there are way better places to get it from.

---

Well, I didn't have it in college, so if you dig out pointers, shoot them at me.

quote:

---

Now that our church has a new (YAY!! ) rector, we're probably going to have an EFM group starting in the fall.

---

YAY!

*snip*
Charlotte

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Melisande:
Well, it finally happened. I'm in year 4, once again the youngest in the group by around 15 years, and now one of the new people keeps saying things like "As we all know -- except you, [Melisande]." Grr. What with being in year 4, and being pretty comfortable in my EFM skin, it's irritating rather than upsetting (and I'm guessing she'll pipe down after a while, so I'm not looking to smack her down or request mentor intervention), but had this happened my first year, when I listed "being the youngest" as one of my fears for the year, I would have been crushed. The timeline, it is not my favorite approach to the SA, though it makes the most logical sense.

I'm curious about the age breakdowns in your groups. My group has been almost entirely composed of ages 45-60, with me as an outlier (I'm about to be 36, started EFM when I was 31), and this year there's a man in his early 70s (a year 4 transfer from a group that folded).

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