Thread: Circus: Old English Thread Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Alaric the Goth (# 511) on :
 
How about we see if we can write using words (from 'today') whose roots are only in Old English or Old Norse? Can we, say, write stuff that's worth reading? We may learn a thing or two if someone lets us know when we've used another word from, say, Frankish!

We should now and then go onto talking about something else than what we began with. You are not to use any words not used in the last two hundred years but can use words like ‘weekend’ so long as the bits are both/all from Old English/Norse.So, can someone begin with ‘My Weekend’ (talk about last weekend or this one or some other, as you want!)

[ 20. March 2008, 01:16: Message edited by: Chorister ]
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alaric the Goth:
How about we see if we can write using words (from 'today') whose roots are only in Old English or Old Norse?
I am with you on that. There is no English like the Old English.

And you are right, it would be hard to say anything without writing words from our northern friends. "They" comes from Denmark. We can thank the Northmen for many other words as well. Eggs, for one thing.

My weekend? I have been sitting all day, reading and eating and doing nothing much else. Saturday is truly my day without work. But it has been cold today, so I have been wearing sheep skin shoes. I do not know what you call them in England.

Tomorrow I will go to church, I and all my household.

Anyway, I cannot think of anything more to say, while writing only words from Old English. King Alfred may have had ships and houses, and knew how to write, but he had not the ways we have to speak to folk far away, or to write to them, so that they can see it at almost the same time, even though they are on the other side of the world. He would have been dumbfounded.
 
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
I think this will be hard. I have been out for a good meal, where we had some well cooked swine with other things and a drink that wasn't ale or water. After the meat we had something to eat I can't speak about, for there are no words for it. Then as the sun was shining, which in England doesn't happen often, we went for a walk to the river, where there were many very small ships, but in the nearby field, for once, there were no cows or horses. So we came back again.

(It is possible that the Norsemen may have stolen the cattle and horses. They are known to fare far and wide in search of things to take back to Norseland, although their ships are small and I do not know how they could put more than one cow in them without sinking.)

[ 07. July 2007, 16:40: Message edited by: Ariel ]
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
Saturday
"Saturday" is a Frankish word. I don't know the Old English one.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
This has been a restful day. I broke bread with a group of men* who cooked eggs, sausage and pancakes for us. I speak not of the "coffee" as that word is not known in Old English methinks.

My wife has felt unwell and has slept most of the day, while I have done chores and read.

I did go to the church to turn on the air cooling thing so it would be ready for worship in the morning.

*[From a nearby church. They come to our [apartment] building every few months]
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
who cooked eggs, *sausage and pancakes for us.
Say rather eggs and meat pudding [Smile]

quote:

They come to our *[apartment] building
If we may draw from the word-hoard of the Northmen, they come to your flats

The *s-word and the *a-word are French.

I ate fish and earth-apples and watched Live Earth on the far-seeing-thing.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
Saturday
"Saturday" is a Frankish word. I don't know the Old English one.
Seventh Day? Washing Day?
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
Saturday
"Saturday" is a Frankish word. I don't know the Old English one.
No.

"Saturday" is found in many Old English writings. It was widely written or spoken throughout the Old English church. It was written as Sæterdæg back then. And many books written now will tell you that the word "Saturday" goes back to Old English times. Since Old English, the written word was made to look like the name "Saturn" again, but they kept saying it the same way as always. Bookish men thought the Old English way of writing the word did not look learned enough.

Like some other loanwords in Old English (wine, wall, church, mile) it may even go back to the time before the English came to England. "Loan", by the way, comes from the Northmen. English is not only the child of the true English folk, but also the child of that lot from Denmark - a half-bred tongue! Even as far back as good King Harold, our last great English leader. It was a woeful day that he fell! (bows head in sorrow)

By the way, although King Alfred the Great had no knowledge of the things we have today, the words of his time are still good enough for us: world-wide web (or "web" for short), network, uptime, shell, kernel, software, hardware ... or maybe he knew more than we think?

So anyway, today I have been running some software, and looking at the world-wide web. And I went to church this morning. It's another cold day - only eleven above freezing - a cold winter's day in my town. So I am still wearing my sheep-skin shoes and I also have the heater on.
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
river search
Not in England, but in the land of the Franks, were those foul words born. Old French - both of them. ("French", though, comes from Old English "frencisc").
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
a group of men ... sausage ... air ... [apartment]
A what of men? And the s-word. And **r. All French. And the '[' and ']' tell me you know yourself it was wrong to write that other word.

But I do not mind "pancakes": "pan" is Old English, and "cake" is what Alaric calls "Norse", that is, the speech of the Danes or Northmen in Old England. The N-word was taken from the Netherlands in Middle English times. Maybe we could call the tongue Old Danish?
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
My Time Away (in "true" English, with a little Old Danish thrown in)

Four months ago, I and my wife and daughters went overseas. Our first stop was in the East - even further east than Alexander the Great had gone. We saw some friends who were living in a small town, and stopped there six days. I had a great time, although my youngest daughter did not like it - too hot, all the buildings looked broken down, and there were so many men and women asking you over and over to buy things. But it was an amazing time! And the way they drive there ...

Then we flew to the Netherlands, to see more friends - we were at their house for three days. They took us sightseeing while we talked and talked about old times and how everyone back home was going. My wife did all the driving - on the right hand side of the road. We drive on the other side back home, so she was learning as we went. But nothing went wrong.

Then we drove from the Netherlands to Denmark, stopping at a small house for five days along the way - far out in the farmland with cows and windmills and wide fields and lots of trees. It was great. We walked, drove to the nearest towns, looked at lots of old buildings - even went off to see a new ship along with thousands of folk in that town. They came out to watch the fireworks at night, down by the waterside - even small children.

In Denmark we drove over two great bridges, and ended up at a flat in the town where the queen lives - sometimes (we didn't see her). The Queen of Denmark has a daughter-in-law who comes from down my way (the Great Southern Land). The Danes were glad to see us - we understood why they were all talking about the news: the queen's daughter-in-law had had a new little daughter only the day before we came. We walked through the town and saw all the queen's great houses. As we walked along, many Danes flew by, going on two-wheelers.

From Denmark we flew to England, and drove from London to Maidenhead, where we had a flat for nine days. We saw my mother-in-law, went up to London, saw friends, went down to Hampshire (Chawton) and Sussex (Ashdown), and so forth. It was such a good time. Having a flat with our own kitchen, and driving ourselves everywhere - it felt a little like we were living there for a short while.

Then we flew back home ... the long way. Over the widest sea in the world. It took more than a full day and night from London to Sydney*. We had been away four weeks. Now we needed a rest!

---------------------
* The word "Sydney" may come from the Old English words "sidan eg" ("side island"), that is: an island near the side of a wide stream. The town Sydney was named after Lord Sydney, who was one of the King's great men back when the town was first built in the late 1700s.
 
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
river search
Not in England, but in the land of the Franks, were those foul words born. Old French - both of them. ("French", though, comes from Old English "frencisc").
I thank you, but you do not say what word I should use to speak of the water that flows inland which is not a sea nor the other kind of water that I was just about to name, which turned out to be a word belonging to the people in the island across the water. What shall I call it?
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
brook? burn?
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bush baptist:
brook? burn?
Bourne, stream, mere, creek?

Flow, flood, spring?
 
Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 
This is hard, but seems fun. How are you doing it? Is it enough to think of words that are not like French or Spanish words that mean the same, or are you looking in a big book of English words? I'm with the big book and it is slow.
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
Great thread! I think it is fun, too, but I am truly slow, and what I write looks as if I find it hard work. I think it makes it more easy if you think of words from the northern, farflung places in England, not the town – like saying ‘beck’ for ‘stream’. Today I mowed the paddock full of marshmallows; it took a long time but I thought I had done good work. Now I can go away tomorrow to a hot land to see my husband – he works in the hot lands to the north of here. I will not have the big word-book there -- I fear I will be bewildered then!
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
Well, all right, -- the big word-book tells me ‘beck’ is from the Danes. Sorry about that. And sorry for posting twice.

[ 09. July 2007, 10:04: Message edited by: bush baptist ]
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by bush baptist:
brook? burn?
Bourne, stream, mere, creek?

Flow, flood, spring?
All good words, indeed!

And waterway, reach, run (wasn't there a Bull Run over in the New World? I heard they fought there twice - Campbellite should know, as it wasn't far from where he lives)...

You can always put two or more English words together where you might want to say one French word: instead of the r-word, say "a wide stream", "a path along the waterside", or else give the waterway's name: "along the Thames", and so on.

Another word is "fleet", as in "Fleet Street". A fleet is a small stream, one of which flows into the Thames underneath that same street (well what do you know!) But hardly anyone knows what that word means nowadays. They think it means the street near lots of ships ... or maybe you can drive fast there (like "fleet of foot").

By the way, I thought highly of Campbellite's "turn" and "chore". These words sent me off to look up the weightiest of my books - and yes, they do indeed come from Old English. He gets a clap from me [Overused] Most of the time I think I know which is which - but those words made me wonder.
 
Posted by Wet Kipper (# 1654) on :
 
This Game seems to have morphed into a linguistics discussion.

what's it to be ?

Wet Kipper
Circus Host
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Wet Kipper:
This Game seems to have morphed into a linguistics discussion.

what's it to be ?

Circus Host
'Tis to be talk of tongues - but only in the English tongue [Smile]
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
Oh Kipper - you have such a good name for this thread! And yes, I can stop talking about where words came from. I hope we can say when a wrong word is uttered (following how Alaric told us to write), but I will not talk about where it comes from.

But I cannot stop thinking about BB's field of marshmallows. BB, are they sweets? Did you eat any? Did they melt in all that sun? Did you get stuck among them while mowing? Do the cows eat them? We town-dwellers want to know.

(BB, I think "beck" is all right, but no go on "place" and "easy". Alaric said you can have "Old Norse" words: that means you *can* have words from the old Danes. That's how I understand what Alaric told us to write. And no need to be sorry unless you ate all that marshmallow and didn't give us any.)
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Wet Kipper:
This Game seems to have morphed into a linguistics discussion.

what's it to be ?

Circus Host
'Tis to be talk of tongues - but only in the English tongue [Smile]
I think Kipper is right. We should talk about weekends, following what Alaric said at the beginning.

I went off talking about where words came from. But I did write about my time overeas a few months ago. And my weekend on the world wide web.

And BB told us about her weekend mowing marshmallows. I am amazed. And hungry.

How was your weekend, Ken? Did you mow anything that you want to tell us about?
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
Oh, MSHB, you make me laugh!
quote:
BB, are they sweets? Did you eat any? Did they melt in all that sun? Did you get stuck among them while mowing? Do the cows eat them? We town-dwellers want to know.

A mallow is a green growing thing (a weed?); one kind grows in marshes in England -- they are called marsh-mallows. From them, men and women once could take the sap, to make a sweet thing, which they called "marshmallow". But that was a long time ago, and now, men and women use the foot of a beast, seethed, to make marshmallow. (It is stronger than the weed.) And in this land, we use the name 'marshmallow' for a weed, but it is not the true marshmallow. This one is hardy, and must be mown before it gets old. But I liked to think of cows eating marshmallows, and a field-full, melting in the sun! (And the mower getting stuck!) [Killing me]

I don't have my big word-book now. (I am on my way north.) I hope this is all right.
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bush baptist:
Oh, MSHB, you make me laugh!
quote:
BB, are they sweets? Did you eat any? Did they melt in all that sun? Did you get stuck among them while mowing? Do the cows eat them? We town-dwellers want to know.

A mallow is a green growing thing (a weed?); one kind grows in marshes in England -- they are called marsh-mallows. From them, men and women once could take the sap, to make a sweet thing, which they called "marshmallow". But that was a long time ago, and now, men and women use the foot of a beast, seethed, to make marshmallow. (It is stronger than the weed.) And in this land, we use the name 'marshmallow' for a weed, but it is not the true marshmallow. This one is hardy, and must be mown before it gets old. But I liked to think of cows eating marshmallows, and a field-full, melting in the sun! (And the mower getting stuck!) [Killing me]

I don't have my big word-book now. (I am on my way north.) I hope this is all right.
Well, well. You learn something every day! I've never heard of "marshmallows" spreading out over the fields - or being mowed. I wondered if they were some kind of white toadstool that looked a bit like marshmallow sweets. Though I still see cows, like those in a "Far Side" drawing, wandering about chewing on marshmallows (or cooking them in the fire!).

(I'm sorry to say that "beast" and "use" are out, under the laws of this game. But you are doing great, the more so if you haven't any books to look up. I would never have thought of marshmallow, and it's a good one. It made me wonder what other sweets we can lawfully talk about in this game. I thought of peanut brittle. We brought some home from overseas. At one town where we went, it was selling everywhere. It was what they were known for: the leading peanut brittle town in the world! Maybe the cows would like some when they get sick of marshmallows?)
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
Marshmallow and peanut brittle! Alfred the Great ate better than we knew!

(Thanks for telling me about the words. I should have known. [Hot and Hormonal]
I could have said 'men and women take the thick water left after seething the foot of a cow or horse'. The weeds grow thigh-high, or higher.)
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bush baptist:
Marshmallow and peanut brittle! Alfred the Great ate better than we knew!

(Thanks for telling me about the words. I should have known. [Hot and Hormonal]
I could have said 'men and women take the thick water left after seething the foot of a cow or horse'. The weeds grow thigh-high, or higher.)
Marshmallow and peanut brittle - maybe that was why King Alfred didn't care about the cakes and let them burn.

"Let them eat cake! I would rather eat marshmallow and peanut brittle. They give me all the strength I need to fight the Danes. These cakes can burn, for all I care!"

Yes, I could see that happening. It has the ring of truth about it.

-------------------------

If I may ask, with all the heat and the drought Out Back, do you have enough water to dip new believers at church? Down here, we have the sea, straight outside the doors (well, twenty or thirty feet away, but as good as). Mostly at Easter, before church begins, we meet on the sand to dip the one who wants it, singing the odd song while it happens. Even with world-wide warming, the sea won't dry up (rise up, more like!) - but what about your neck of the woods? Dry as dust?
 
Posted by Alaric the Goth (# 511) on :
 
I am glad that this thread has gone on for as long as it has. I thought it might die a death but no! Forgive me for not saying 'Old Danish', or the like, for the tongue of the Northmen.

Tomorrow I am not at work, but go south on the iron road to the land of the East Saxons, with the help of Great North Eastern, as far as Peterborough, to where my good friends live, who formerly dwelt in a great house near Nottingham. She that lives there likes her ale and knows more than me as to what is good when it comes to that drink, if you can believe this. But she does not like Sunderland or Leeds, as do I, instead (and I have to forgive her for this, which, as you see, is so hard), her best team is Tottenham!

I know little of Essex and hope it will be a good shire to fare in. I know it was more than a shire many hundreds of years ago, when Raedwald was king nearby of the East Angles. His land left heathen ways earlier than the land of the East Saxons. My friends say we may go to see where he was laid after his death at Sutton, by the sea. I like the thought of doing this.

[ 12. July 2007, 15:02: Message edited by: Alaric the Goth ]
 
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
This weekend I will stay at home. I am looking forward to this, for I have been out for the last two weekends. Also I am fed up with the iron horses that run on the iron road, as they never run on time.

I see in the daily thing-that-is-not-a-book but comes out first thing in the morning and is good to read while on the iron road, that the keeping of the iron horses where I live, now kept by Maiden (or something like), will go to new folk towards the end of the year, so maybe travel will be quicker and the horses on time. However I've also heard that travellers will be asked to shell out a huge pile of gold, much more than before, but such is life.

I think this weekend I shall also visit the house of books that is open to all, where you can take them home for free for a few weeks, and maybe I shall take home one of those round things with moving plays. I might also treat myself to food from the east. In short, it should be a dull weekend (the more so as there is no Who to see) but I hope a pleasant and restful one. What will others be doing?
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
This thread gladdens my heart.

I am helping our church's Free-time Holy-book School this week. The children come to it gladly and learn much. They make crafts, listen to the Good News readings and try out tests with water and wind, straw and strings. They also sing songs they learned at in-the-woods-place.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
visit
Is this not french?
 
Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
visit
Is this not french?
It is. You might go with "meeting".

This evening I will go to a cheese and [drink which isn't ale or water] meeting at my church. It will be good to see friends and talk with them.
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
Campbellite said
quote:
This thread gladdens my heart.
Mine, too.

And I liked very much the tale of King Alfred and why he let the cakes burn. Maybe he also had fudge? with walnuts?

But now, since you asked about water and the church, I must tell you that my name has misled you a bit. In the bush, or in older times, the words of my name mean something not quite what they seem. I looked on the web, for my whole name, “goggled” I think is the word, and the first thing I saw gave a good understanding of my name. It also talked about the word-book Macquarie, to show the true meaning. In short, I am not of those folk who dip grown-ups in water; I am of the sort who do not hold strongly to any one gang, but go to that church which is nearby, whatever it may be, so long as it is true to what was once given (and not too sick-making.)

Alaric, did you see where Raedwald lies? I do not know Raedwald – was he a great king, or weak or doltish? Tomorrow I will go to see sights, too; a great hall of wise men and the books they wrote.
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
visit
Is this not french?
As is "travel", "pile" (= heap), "round", "moving", "treat", and "pleasant". Sadly, the same for "test" and "place".

I haven't been to Raedwald's grave (Sutton Hoo?), but his weapons and such are on show in London. I have been twice to see them when over on that side of the world. I think highly of his craftsmen. He was a rich man, and the things buried with him were made of gold and silver. There was a whole ship buried with him too.

Speaking of graveyards, I was at one today. The woman being farewelled had lived long and worked hard for others - such as reading many books for the blind when she was sixty and seventy years old. She said (before she died, not at the graveyard) she could have become a lawyer herself after all the books she had read aloud for the blind who were at law school. What a good way to help others when you are old! She was rich in deeds and it made me glad to hear about them.

Now you might think, BB, that "bush" or "quite" are in, but woe! they are out. Anyway, now I understand the true meaning of your name. I had never heard of it before, and thought it only meant one who lives Out Back and also happens to believe in the dipping of new believers as grown-ups, not as children. So, chalk that up as another thing I have learned on this thread, alongside mowing marshmallows.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bush baptist:
Alaric, did you see where Raedwald lies?
At Sutton overlooking the Deben creek and the borough of Woodbridge in Suffolk.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
I, too, was at a graveyard today. A car wreck befell a friend of my son, Will, last Sunday. Jeremy wore no belt and was thrown out the fore window.

On the morrow, my wife and I make our way to Roanoke to help her friend move her stuff to a new house. Lyn, bless her heart, has not begun to pack. [Eek!]

I am dreading this. Beseech the Lord for me. [Votive]

[Do true names count in this game even if they are Frankish? I would fain know.]

[ 13. July 2007, 20:38: Message edited by: Campbellite ]
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
[Do true names count in this game even if they are Frankish? I would fain know.]
I have been keeping away from them, as well as from "move" and "stuff" and "pack". But I can see how getting all your friend's goods and whatnot from one home to another will be heavy work. The more so if she has not gathered them together or put them in boxes. And as for graveyards, they are saddest when you are burying the young. You always think and hope that your children will outlive you.

I mostly played with hardware and software this weekend. I was learning a new tongue - not for speaking but for writing software (that is what I do for a living). And I downloaded heaps of software, just to see if it was any good. As an outcome of all this downloading and setting up, Windows is no longer on my hard drive: I never did anything with it, as I have been working with Free Software for years. Windows was only there if my daughter needed it for her games - and she has her own hardware and software for that now.

I watched two old shows on my hardware - one was called "2001: a wander through the heavens" and the other was called "Woodstock" and was about a gathering of singers and players and hundreds of thousands of young folk who came to listen, somewhere north of New York. "The Who" was one of the teams of singers and players, and also "Ten Years After". Cool, man! "By the time we got to Woodstock we were half a (thousand thousand) strong ..."

And today church, where we sang songs and listened to the Gospel and a Psalm from Holy Writ. Then we had a speaker and the "fellowship of the bread and the cup". After church we ate our midday meal together by the strand, right outside our church building, and we all talked heartily.

End of holidays. Back to work tomorrow. Now to bed.
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
My week-end was full of happenings and happiness. I am with my husband now (though to our sorrow, just for two weeks) and though he must work in the week, he is free (or a bit more free) on the weekend. We bought some things for the flat (pots and pans and bed-clothes). Then we went to a lake, just to walk around it, and to see the old place of worship (fane?) there -- this is not the worship I know but a kind with angry-looking gods -- people burn sweet-smelling woods there. We do not like to treat folk's worship as a mere sight, so we came away soon.
After we saw a kind of water-play of the land, which was great fun.
On the Lord's day, we sought out a church of our own kind, or close enough. Though we did not know the tongue, we could tell from the beat of the words when people began to say "I believe" and "Our Father" so we could say them too, and we could sing, too, when we knew the air. In the afternoon, we went to the great hall of books, which long ago was a place of great learning. That was wonderful, to see the stones left telling of the deeds of learned men in olden times, and to see how the yard was set out as a way to show how the learning happened -- that first one must pass through the gates of skill and good-heartedness, to look into the well of right thinking and then through the gate of skill with words... and so on.
One last thing: before I left my homeland, I heard on the airwaves a man say that the great leader Churchill said (about speechmaking) "Short words are best, and old short words are best of all." So I think he would have loved this game!
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
First put forward by bush baptist:
lake just around place fane people treat mere close people air pass airwaves
I know you will hate this, but ... these are out, as far as I can see (although "lake" is so near... the English had "lagu", and then went and borrowed the French "lac", which means the same thing. How woeful!).

Some thoughts for some of these: you can always use "temple" or "house of worship", and "near" would go well in "or near enough". While "waves" are good, what they go through is a worry. Waves may go through the sea (surf!), or even the land (earthquake!), but otherwise I guess they must go through the sky...

But speaking of ghostly waves that fly through the sky bearing speech, I think King Alfred could have had a walkie-talkie. How else did he tell his fighters what to do? Hmm, would you answer: maybe he sent them a wire? ... Ah! Wireless!! Why not. He must have had wireless. Most likely on his laptop. After all, he was networked, wasn't he? Anyway, you heard about Churchill on the wireless.

(Who'd have thought King Alfred had so much cool hardware in his day? For I reckon, if they had the words, they must have had the things.)
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
Woe! The grim outcome of not having a wordbook, and not enough insight into Old English!
Thank you for sharing your wisdom with me/us. (And thanks as well for more of the True Tale of Alfred the Great! I never understood before how he went to war.) I thought "temple" would be French, as they use that word. And how could I not have thought of "wireless"?
At least Churchill's own words got through unscathed -- and next time I will hope to get through without mistake myself.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
[Do true names count in this game even if they are Frankish? I would fain know.]
I have been keeping away from them, as well as from "move" and "stuff" and "pack".
You are right about "move". "pack" I ken not. But "stuff" does have the German brother-word "Stoff", does it not?
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
Bother! I said
quote:
as they use that word
when someone already said that that word in leaning writing came from overseas. Let's say I put 'have' instead!
 
Posted by Alaric the Goth (# 511) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by bush baptist:
Alaric, did you see where Raedwald lies?
At Sutton overlooking the Deben creek and the borough of Woodbridge in Suffolk.
Alas! We did not go to Woodbridge or Sutton, though it was all right as we went to Colchester instead. We saw walls that were made before any Saxon came to Essex. We saw yet older things, in a stone burg made by Normans, alas, from when the British in Norfolk had a queen named Boudica, who led her men in wrath against her foes, for she was whipped and her daughters ill-used as she looked on. We saw things bunt in the fire in which the first Colchester had been lost. We saw a wagon crafted not long ago like that in which the sword-queen fought.

On Sunday we went to another, greater Norman burg (so many were there!) at Hedingham, and rode behind an iron horse nearby.

I drank good ale on Friday, Saturday, Sunday and Monday, and strong drink that Scottish folk call ‘water of life’. This was so strong that it would be ‘water of death’ were I to drink any more than I did! It was from what had been Pictland, though!
 
Posted by Alaric the Goth (# 511) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bush baptist:
Bother! I said
quote:
as they use that word
when someone already said that that word in leaning writing came from overseas. Let's say I put 'have' instead!
I also said 'ill-***d'. I hang my head in woe!
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
[Do true names count in this game even if they are Frankish? I would fain know.]
I have been keeping away from them, as well as from "move" and "stuff" and "pack".
You are right about "move". "pack" I ken not. But "stuff" does have the German brother-word "Stoff", does it not?
I can say the following as you asked, for otherwise I should not write about where words come from (so our wardens tell us). But it has to do with the laws of the game - which words are in or out?

Yes, they do say "Stoff" in the land between Denmark and the Netherlands, but they took that word from Rome (stuppa) - not from their northern forefathers and ours. Worse still, they gave it to the French (estoffe), who brought it to England (giving Middle English stoffen or stuffen) - or so my big look-up books say. Anyway, "stuff" is not found in Old English, although its brother-word "stop" is. I could say more about this, but we would be better off making a new thread if we want a long talk about where this or that word comes from.

So quickly: "Pack" is from the Netherlands, as far as "they" can tell. And not found in English before the 1200s. Sadly, we must "gather up our things and put them in boxes" instead.

I am amazed that no one has wanted to fight my "psalm" - a word so openly from another tongue (way east of Rome, in Alexander's kingdom). Well, it was borrowed, maybe more than once, in Old English times (as 'salm' and 'sealm') ... and was still written that way in early Middle English. The 'p' was put before the word to show how learned the writers were, but no one ever spoke it that way - not in English.

Meanwhile, back to "My Weekend". This coming weekend I will be busy. Not only is there a new book coming out, filled with tales of "Deathly Hallows" (hey, Rowling is playing our game!), but I am also gathering all my old hardware together, so we can take it to a team of men who will pull it to bits cleanly, and not make the earth unclean by burying the hardware. These good men work for Apple, and they are putting on this "hardware clean-up" drive for free. I have over ten year's worth of old hardware to get rid of! As they said long ago: "Bring out your dead (hardware)!" And I will!

After thoughts:

(Alaric) could we say the daughters of the sword-queen were "unmaidened"? Also, "wagon" worries me, for the Old English gave us "wain" (as did the wainwrights who built them) - and that word still lives in the farmlands (or so I am told). Anyway, "wagon" is from the Netherlands - we owe them more than we think!

(BB) "temple" was borrowed from Rome in Old English times as "tempel" - as well as being found in French (we write it like the French, but say it like the Old English). Oddly enough, there are a few words which can either come from Old English or Old French, for both tongues got the words from Rome. "Part" is like that. We can also say "offer" and (!) "decline" - for churchmen back then talked in Old English about how to "decline" words (as in saying: "I go, thou goest, he goeth...").

Must. Go. To. Bed. It is after midnight!
 
Posted by Alaric the Goth (# 511) on :
 
I thought after I wrote it that 'wain' would be better than 'wagon', but I think the Danish word was 'vagn’, and although Old English gave us ‘wain’, it was written ‘wægn’, so alike to the Netherlandish word!
 
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
I am amazed that no one has wanted to fight my "psalm" - a word so openly from another tongue (way east of Rome, in Alexander's kingdom).
I was going to, for I saw that it had been borrowed from another tongue and its roots came from the far south. Then I thought loanwords might be all right after all, so I left it as it was. Psorry.
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
I am amazed that no one has wanted to fight my "psalm" - a word so openly from another tongue (way east of Rome, in Alexander's kingdom).
I was going to, for I saw that it had been borrowed from another tongue and its roots came from the far south. Then I thought loanwords might be all right after all, so I left it as it was. Psorry.
I don't see how we can keep away from loanwords on this thread, as the Old English brought loanwords with them to England, from before they were even English ... there never was a "wholly clean" English, a "loan-free" English.

But as long as folk wrote some word in an Old English book or song (not in a book written in the tongue of Rome, but in the English tongue) -- before the French came, before Harold lost the kingdom -- then I would see the word as all right.

That, at least, is how I understand the laws of this game, and how I have followed them myself. But Alaric gave us the laws, and he might have other thoughts about what they mean.
 
Posted by Alaric the Goth (# 511) on :
 
It is good enough if words were written somewhere in English or Danish (as spoken by sea-wolves who came to this land) before the Day of Doom in the year one thousand, six and sixty, albeit if the words come from Danes, or the tongue of the kings of Rome, or those of the Welsh or Scots.

If the word is like 'psalms' and was in the Good Book, that is all right as well, again as long as it is in an Old English book somewhere.
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alaric the Goth:
I thought after I wrote it that 'wain' would be better than 'wagon', but I think the Danish word was 'vagn’, and although Old English gave us ‘wain’, it was written ‘wægn’, so alike to the Netherlandish word!
No book that I have looked up gives that word as coming from the Danes or Old English, always from the Netherlands. The Shorter Oxford being one such book. Skeat (in a book from Oxford all about where words come from) says that "wagon" didn't show up in English until the 1300s, a little late to be from the Danes.

The 'g' in Old English "wægn" was soft, more like the 'y' in "yellow" than the 'g' in "gallows". So it gave us "wain", not "wagon". It is the same as in Old English "dæg", which gives us "day", not "dag". Indeed, 'g' in Old English times was mostly not spoken like 'g' today, but somewhere in between 'g' and 'y'. We do not say 'g' that way any more.

So, as far as I can see, "wagon" was borrowed after Old English times, even though there was a brother-word "wain" in Old English. But that is like "friar" (from Rome's "frater") being borrowed from French, even though its brother-word ("brother"!) was already found in Old English. Where do we make the cut-off, if not at words that came into English after Harold lost the kingdom? Even if they have a brother-word that was already in Old English, the words themselves ("wagon", "friar") were borrowed after Old English.
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Alaric the Goth:
It is good enough if words were written somewhere in English or Danish (as spoken by sea-wolves who came to this land) before the Day of Doom in the year one thousand, six and sixty, albeit if the words come from Danes, or the tongue of the kings of Rome, or those of the Welsh or Scots.

If the word is like 'psalms' and was in the Good Book, that is all right as well, again as long as it is in an Old English book somewhere.
Yes, that works well.

I am sorry. I wrote my other answer before I saw yours. I need not have talked about these words. You had already answered me.

"Day of Doom" indeed. If the Danes were sea-wolves, then I guess the first French were land-wolves. What they did to Northumbria... laid it waste, and left bodies everywhere - flock and herd, households and towns.

-----

Tomorrow is "Deathly Hallows" Day. Not reading it on the web today.
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
True, but the Saxons were wolves too, once, long before. Poor old England!
And anyway those who came to fight and win the land on the Day of Doom were not true French -- they were once men from the North (hence their name) like Danes, themselves. They came south with Rollo the Ganger, their great forefather, and set up like a French kind of Danelaw.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
The weekend comes, and my wife and I hope to take out old, unwanted wares to the dump. We have not enough room for them. Who knew that a small flat would be harder to keep clean than a large house?

Also I will preach before the folk at church Sunday. (I am filling in for my friend Ed who will be at a large church meeting in Fort Worth.) Don't know what I will say yet. [Eek!] I am not following the list of readings, as I otherwise would, but will speak about the road to Emmaus.

Do you think that will preach?
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
I was also getting rid of some old things this weekend.

Everything went well. We took our old hardware to a shoppingtown far away, and the men there unloaded it for us and took it away, after a swear word about how much we had brought. As we were driving away, a "horse-less wain" drove in - much bigger than ours - and it was full up with dead hardware. I laughed. I wondered what the unloaders would say about that!

We then drove back to our own Shire (as we call it), and bought two books with the same name - something about "Deathly Hallows". I began reading one book, and my eldest daughter began reading the other. This was about midday Saturday. We read all afternoon and evening. She came to the end of the book about midnight. I had to read on through half the early morning before I came to the end of the book (well, I was asleep by four!) I thought it was good; I liked it.

This morning was church, but I was not the speaker. I put up the words of the songs on the overhead, so everyone could see them while they sang. And I looked after the offering, to see how much there was and write it all down after church had ended. We had a meeting after church to work out who would be the new leaders for the next three years. As everyone was of one mind (more or less), this meeting went smoothly, and we came home and rested from all our work.

Out (sorry to keep harping): large, preach - French, from Rome (unless you can find that either was also borrowed in Old English times - I haven't found them there yet, but I could well be wrong).
 
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
Man, is this thread groovy or what.

This weekend I got stuck into the Deathly Hallows book, which was good. Not much else to tell, as it rained a lot so I did little else but sit and read, but the sun's been shining all day, and the waters are now where they should be, so I may have to go to work in the morning after all.
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
Oh, I like that opening line, Ariel!
This weekend just gone, I went with my husband to a great hall showing the life and thoughts of a man who won a war in this land; we thought deeply about this man and wondered at his life. Yesterday we walked around a lake, smirking (!!!) and talking with the men and women. We saw little boats made like swans, and men and women in them, pushing with their feet to make the boat go. We saw another temple, but only looked at the outside – I wanted to look at it since there was a shape of a man, made of bits of broken earthenware (of all hues). I had been collecting such bits of broken earthenware to make something the same at my house.
MSHB – I know that Shire! My mother-in-law, who lives in an old folks’ home in Sydney, thinks the Shire has the best strand in the world. (She went there when she was a girl.) Whenever we go to see her, she asks to go to that strand. Last year, my husband took her and they stayed at an inn hard by the strand – almost no other person was there – only my husband, my mother-in-law and the men-at-arms who keep the peace. We laughed that they must have thought my mother-in-law would make trouble!
I have found an on-line word-book – can you all tell?
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
I wanted to speak about making today's marshmallows. The stuff used to bind the sugars is not from the hoof of a beast, but rather from the inner part of the hide, which is scraped off before the hide is tanned. This same stuff is sometimes put into the lips (of a man or woman) to make them seem fuller and larger. I know not what its name is in the English tongue.

As for my weekend, I passed Saturday reading the last Harry Potter book, and today I went to church and came back home and have been laying about the house, doing pretty much nothing. Which suits me just swell.

[ 23. July 2007, 01:43: Message edited by: MouseThief ]
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
I fear I have spoken wrongly. The stuff the marshmallow is made of is not the same stuff as that is put into lips -- but it is made from that stuff by cooking (one can learn about the way this is done, I think, on the world wide web by seeking on the word "marshmallow").
 
Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on :
 
An undertaking like to this thread is Uncleftish Beholding by Poul Anderson
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
Bother again! Another wrong post! Instead of:
quote:
This weekend just gone,
make it 'On the weekend...'.
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
stuff used sugars beast stuff larger passed(?) suits
Without a book on hand to look up these words, I am only guessing. But all these look French to me (not sure about when "pass" came into English). Some of them have been written about earlier in the thread, if you want some more feedback.

It is hard work keeping away from those bad French words. And King Alfred had no hot-water drink made with black leaves from the Far East, so he also had no need of a word for the sweetener to put in such a drink. Maybe he kept to mead and beer and wine. But did he have any strong apple-drink? I wonder. He could have had "Strong Bow", I guess, in "sweet", "draught" or "dry". I will have a draught one, thanks, if anyone is going shopping.
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
If King Alfred (or King Raedwald -- or anybody) was sick, I bet he had a hot-water drink made with leaves; if it was bitter, he could have honey to sweeten it. (And by the way -- honeycomb! to go with the other goodies.) I don't know what leaves grow in England to help sick people, though -- maybe hoarhound? (which weed grows where I live, too, and is good for colds.)
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
stuff used sugars beast larger passed(?) suits
You are right. None of these words came from Old English.

Stuff: This is from Middle English, and before that from the tongue spoken by those who won the kingship of England in 1044, and before that from the tongue which is kin to our own tongue, and which is spoken in that land on the great landmass east of England, between the land of the winners of the 1044 fight I spoke of before, and the many-great land of the overgreat king that reaches from there, over the great hills, and to the farthest seas of the east.

Use: Also Middle English from the tongue of the 1044 winners, but before that from the dead tongue once spoken in the land shaped like a boot, that is to say the land where the great church father, who is named the "bridge builder" in that tongue, lives in the well-known great-town of seven hills.

Sugar: likewise

Beast: likewise

Large: likewise

Pass: likewise

Suit: likewise

Shit, this is harder than it looks!
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bush baptist:
(And by the way -- honeycomb! to go with the other goodies.)
Mmm honeycomb. That King Alfred must have had a sweet tooth.

Looking forward ... this weekend: a fiftieth birthday get-together. And hopefully get some much needed sleep. Too much reading late at night last weekend.

And on Sunday a haircut after church. (Doesn't your church give haircuts?)
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
And on Sunday a haircut after church. (Doesn't your church give haircuts?)
That holds up on how long your priest speaks. I did not need a haircut when I came to church.

I lead worship tonight (Thor's Day, but we worship not Thor. [Razz] ) for the elders who dwell in the block of flats where I also dwell. Many cannot get out to their own churches, so we bring it to them.

And on the weekend, my wife and I will once more go to help her friend carry her worldly goods to the new house (which is an old house, but no I won't go there...) She has prayed me that I help with her hardware which has been carried over, but is not yet set up.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
Shit
That you CAN say. [Razz]
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
That holds up on how long your priest speaks. I did not need a haircut when I came to church.
In my church we have no priest or shepherd, for many of us take turns in speaking on Sunday (as I do at times), or in leading the singing, or blessing the bread and cup (as we do each Sunday). But I like the thought of someone's hair (or beard!) growing while a long-winded speaker holds forth. "I fell asleep for twenty years ... and he was still talking when I woke up!"

quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
She has prayed me that I help with her hardware which has been carried over, but is not yet set up.
Ah, another soul who is asked to set up other folk's hardware and software! When you know what to do with a keyboard and mouse, you sometimes find that you have many friends in need.

As for pray , you might look at the linked websheet. And if you turn "pray" into "carry" in that link, you might find another French word.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
Ooh! I must keep that websheet. It is most helpful.

[ETA: "link" is from Old Norse.]

[ 27. July 2007, 03:56: Message edited by: Campbellite ]
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
Ooh! I must keep that websheet. It is most helpful.

[ETA: "link" is from Old Norse.]
And therefore we may write it, under the laws of the game - as Alaric said at the beginning of the thread.

See, it works like this. The Northmen ("Danes") came to England and settled there while Old English was spoken. Many of their words became part of the Old English tongue sometime from 800 to 1050 ... but the borrowed words mostly do not show up in English writings until Middle English times. But we know that these words did become English in Old English times, so they are all right. Any word borrowed in Old English times - as well as any word brought to England by the first English settlers - is good and may be written in this thread.

So if the word-book says that a word came from Old English or from the Northmen who settled in England ("Old Norse"), then you can write it here. You can also write words from Rome, if they were borrowed by the Old English. So words like church, bishop, plant, part, offering, devil, pope - are all right. As you can see, many of the words from Rome are church-words, which helps us when we talk about our weekends (though my church - and yours, I take it - happens to have no pope, bishop, or priest, other than the priesthood of all believers).

What am I doing this weekend? So far, I am writing on this thread. And I ate breakfast - oats and milk heated up, and then a hot drink made with water and beans - I think they call it "coughie", but I might have that wrong. The drink doesn't make me cough, but my shallow wit might make you choke.
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
As far as your hot drink light-heartedness goes (cough, cough) -- yes, I'm choking. [Biased]
But now I call to mind that the Good Book says, 'Like a madman with burning arrows is the one who says, I am only choking'. Oh dear.

All right, in earnest now:
quote:
But we know that these words did become English in Old English
I believe you, but how do we know? From the way speech works?
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
I am at the house of my wife's friend. This is to see if I got her hardware set up right. Here goes...
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
Ta dah!

Sadly her "call-up" is faster than my broadband. (I have a very old heap of hardware. The last foot is the slowest, let the reader understand.)
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
Home now, and see that I wrote a word that I should not. Rats!

It has been a long day, but much was done. We bought a new box for seeing far away things, with other costly hardware. I love spending the geld of others. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
Home now, and see that I wrote a word that I should not. Rats!
This is most unkind. Now I shall have to look though your post to find the word that shouldn't be there, and I'll be even later to bed than I might otherwise have been.

Our weekend has been fairly dull. Early in the day, before the sun was hot, I went outside and worked in the yard, turning over the soil and taking out the bindweed roots. Bindweed is an evil weed which puts down roots everywhere it can. The roots run along under the ground, and then a plant will grow up from the underground roots, and send even more roots out.

The only way to be rid of bindweed is to take the roots from the soil, using a shovel to turn over the soil and get down to a depth where there are no more roots. You pull the roots out of the soil, and set them somewhere where the sun will dry them to death, more or less. It is a slow and dull kind of work, and filthy too. But it feels good to know I'm getting this work done.

My wife went to a christening today, the christened child being the son of a husband and wife who go to our church. I stayed home with our youngest son, and the two of us went and bought food, and also two glass cups for that far eastern drink made from hot water and broken leaves, which as yet has no name in our English tongue.

I drink a lot of this drink, and I like to drink from a cup made of glass much more than I like to drink from a cup made of clay. The heat goes through the clay more readily than through the glass, and therefore burns my lips (I'm truly a lightweight when it comes to things that burn my lips). My son the teen said he would keep the dishes clean (such was the deal we made with him at the beginning of the summer) and the dishwasher empty, but he has not been keeping the dishes washed as he said he would, so we keep running out of clean glass mugs. Thus my buying two more.

In the evening, after we ate, we sat at the table and talked with folks from far away, using the hardware that everyone here already knows and has spoken of but which of yet has no other name in our English tongue (at least none that I know of).

And now I shall go to bed, and wish you all a most blessed day tomorrow, the day of our Lord.
 
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
I've not done much this weekend other than read books (one of them is the "Deathly Hallows", again). Last night I got my hardware to give me some drawings of Oxenford that I can send to friends and the folk of my household. I didn't draw these myself, they were taken with one of those small silver boxes that does drawings for you. They came out well, but in some of them, there's a weird yellow glowing ball in the sky, and the sky is blue instead of grey. But I think folk will like them in spite of this oddness.
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
post soil (times 4) stayed mugs
MouseThief has chosen his name well - an Old English name indeed. And a long tale well written. But a few thoughts...

"post" is a worrying word. As a stick in the ground, it does indeed come from Old English. To send a word or writing to others - as a fighter might send a warning to his fellow fighters, - it comes from French. So my books tell me. But might we not put a warning on a stick planted in the ground, so others can read it? And is that not "posting" a warning? Ah, it is a worry. My hard heart would say "no" to this word.

"soil" is a filthy French word for a filthy thing. Call it "earth" and we will hear you.

"stayed" is another of those worrying words. "Stay" as a rope to hold up a ship's mast is truly from Old English. But when it means "to be somewhere for a while" or "not to leave", then it comes from French. And what makes it more of a worry: a ship's "stay" had better "not leave" but "be there for a while", else the mast will fall down. It is hard when one word is in truth two words that look the same, but one comes from Old English and the other from French. This makes the game tougher. (And we thought it would be all sweetness and light to play this game!)

"mug" is another worry. It is found in the Old Danish, but not in Middle English - it only shows up in English in the 1500s, which is later than the other words we borrowed from the Danes. Did it come from the Danes who settled England before the French came? We don't know. But I cannot say it is wrong - nor can I say it is right. Too hard to call!

But I am learning heaps while I look up these words to find out if they are lawful in this game.

C - was your "Rats" spoken of "very"? Truly a French word. But this reader did not understand your bit about "the last foot". Am I being too thick?
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
blue
So near! But is it near enough?

"Blue" comes from French (bleu), while Old English had the word "blaw", "blaew" (which might have become "blow" or "blew" today). So it is one of those worrying words where French and English were almost the same ...but we took up the French word and dropped the Old English. Sigh.
 
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
Hell's bells [brick wall] I feel as if my tongue is weighted with lead in trying to speak the speech of the Northmen, and I can't have a good swear either. It is still a good game though.
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
"Rats" is not my word. Campbellite wrote that word. I wrote what he had written, so I could write about it myself.

I think what you say about "blue" makes the game too hard. What we took from the French was not the word itself, but the way it is written. The two tongues each had this word; what was not alike was the way they were written. If we must write our words the way they were written before 1050, none of us could read what each other had written! All that "sumer is icumen in" silliness gives me a headache. And that's only middle English! (I'm sorry I said "written" so many times in this bit, but I didn't want to think of another way to say it over and over -- my mother always said I don't work hard enough in life, and she (as ever) spoke soothly. If there is a light way and a heavy way to do something, I will choose the light way every time.)

I fear you are right about "post". It seems so old and English a word, but -- oh how it smarts to say it! -- it is not from Old English.

Likewise for "soil". But here the "oi" should have given it away. Bad thinking by me.

It's a ticklish part of this game that sometimes, when you're looking up the word in the word-book, you see the word you're looking for, but don't see that it's not used there the same way that you have used it. So it might be that you have used the word for a doing, but they have used it for a thing. Or the other way about. As you said, it's like there are two words, but they're written the same, so we think of them as the same word. It does make the game much harder.

Mug I didn't even look up. Dumb, dumb, dumb! If I had, I would have seen that my wordbook says we don't know where it came from. You must have a better wordbook than I do. Or they don't know either, but are saying what they think is so, even though they don't know it in sooth. They want us to think they are so smart, but they oft don't know any more than we do! Pricks.

Anyway I woke early today and couldn't get back to sleep, so here I am writing to you.
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bush baptist:
quote:
But we know that these words did become English in Old English
I believe you, but how do we know? From the way speech works?
This is a hard one to answer. I was writing what a learned man says in one of his books. So why might he say that?
These are my thoughts on why the Danish words came into English before the French came. We can see from the above that they came into England before the French came.

I haven't been thinking about this all weekend. But a litte bit of the time.
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
Ariel: it is hard to swear using only words that were in Old English! I wonder why so many of our cuss words are so new? We know that the French winners of the well-known 1066 fight looked down upon our English tongue (twits!), calling it "low" and other such words (mostly in their filthy, stuck-up French tongue, I don't wonder). But still, our forebears must have had some way to cuss? Some words that even then were used with heat when one wanted to say something "naughty"? Nevertheless it looks like none of them have come down to us today, or achingly few. Not to be too mean, but you could say "prick" (as I did above), "ass", or "cocksucker". "Bitch" and "shithead" also come from good English stock. I can't think of any more, but somebody else will come along and help us, I know.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
Mouethief, those seven words that those who live beyond the western sea may not say on the far-speaking-thing are all English.

And think how much harder it would be to use no words with English roots.!
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
"Rats" is not my word. Campbellite wrote that word. I wrote what he had written, so I could write about it myself.
I knew it was Campbellite - I was writing to him, not you! That is why I wrote "C" beforehand. I should have written "Campbellite" in full. Sorry I misled you.

About "blue" - I don't think they (the French and the Old English words) were spoken altogether the same. But still, hard to call. All my books say "blue" is from French, while also saying that there was an English "sister-word" to "blue". What do your books say?

I don't want to write Old (or Middle) English here either, much as I like "sumer is icumen in". Where we can write in new-fangled ways with words from Old English times, I'll do so. That's why we have "keyboard" and "cool, man!" Though I do like to think of King Alfred saying the latter while writing with the former, seeing that the words (key, board, cool, man) were all there in his day.

At the end of the day: how do we play the game while keeping to the laws of the game? Where do we draw the mark that we cannot step over? I do think it is hard to tell sometimes - not all words are straightforwardly English or French, as you can see. I keep to words I know about, or look them up and only write them if I think I can fight for them when someone else says "no". But if your books say "Old English" or "Old Norse" for some word, then that is good enough. But be careful of words like "sound": Old English if it means "healthy" or "a body of water between two lands"; but Old French if it means "something you hear". They are not the same word.
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
Ariel: it is hard to swear using only words that were in Old English! I wonder why so many of our cuss words are so new? We know that the French winners of the well-known 1066 fight looked down upon our English tongue (twits!), calling it "low" and other such words (mostly in their filthy, stuck-up French tongue, I don't wonder). But still, our forebears must have had some way to cuss? Some words that even then were used with heat when one wanted to say something "naughty"? Nevertheless it looks like none of them have come down to us today, or achingly few. Not to be too mean, but you could say "prick" (as I did above), "ass", or "cocksucker". "Bitch" and "shithead" also come from good English stock. I can't think of any more, but somebody else will come along and help us, I know.
I know of others, but I am not the one to write them. Some words are still banned from writing in books and saying on the wireless.

I liked your words "achingly few". And I do like how you write so much good English of today without breaking the laws of the game. Well, other than "using".

By the way, some book I read said that we have lost about four-fifths of the words that were around in Old English times. When I look at an Old English word book, I can see that such a big loss did happen. I guess that holds true for swear words too.

In some tongues, folk swear by the gods, and by the blessed this or that - churchy words, rather than words for body parts or "sleeping" with someone. Maybe the Old English swore like that?
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
In some tongues, folk swear by the gods, and by the blessed this or that - churchy words, rather than words for body parts or "sleeping" with someone. Maybe the Old English swore like that?
By Our Lady and God's Blood, so they did.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
C - was your "Rats" spoken of "very"? Truly a French word. But this reader did not understand your bit about "the last foot". Am I being too thick?
Too late I knew that the word "very" was from the French. Caught it after I could make it right.

"The last foot" means that the bits I get from the net come fast, but the last foot (inside my hardware box) goes slowly. I have heard that this is true of many older hardware boxes.

And about swear words, in the New World where Mousethief and I dwell, swear words are oftimes called "Anglo-Saxonisms". Odd that so few are, it seems. It is not much of a swear word, but I have found that "snot" can be written in this game. [Eek!]

[speeling]

[ 30. July 2007, 04:37: Message edited by: Campbellite ]
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
"The last foot" means that the bits I get from the net come fast, but the last foot (inside my hardware box) goes slowly. I have heard that this is true of many older hardware boxes.
Ah, now I understand what you mean.

I thought you were talking about the wire from your network gateway to your hardware box. In my house they are only about a foot away from each other. That's what I was thinking of as "the last foot". And I couldn't work out why it would be slow. Home network wires (and wireless links) are much faster than broadband.

But yes, the chips in old hardware are slo-o-ow.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
It came to me that my hardware is older than I thought. It is at least four years old, and as has been said, it grows slow. I have been hoarding my farthings so as to buy a new one. I hope in time for Christmas.
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Mouethief, those seven words that those who live beyond the western sea may not say on the far-speaking-thing are all English.
Ah, but are they old English? My wordbook says no.
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
My tired old brain couldn't come up with the "seven words that can't be said on the wireless" on its own (and believe me, I spoke to it rather sternly), so I went and looked them up on the world wide web. I will write them with stars, so as not to tread upon the toes of any who might find the sight of them written in full a little too much for this kind of thread.

sh*t -- this is from good old English stock. No need to bring in a word from some other tongue when you've got one that works as well and as tirelessly as this poor old drafthorse. Oops! Bad horse! Road apples.

p*ss -- my wordbook says this is from French.

f*ck -- there is a lengthy tale to tell about this one! My wordbook says this is middle English, and thence from "Germanic" roots. "What in the hell does that mean?" I hear you say. (Hell, by the bye, is old English.) The wordbook goes on to say that it is akin to thus-and-such words in other tongues. But if it were from old English, the wordbook would have said so. So I have to say this one is right out.

c*nt -- this one took the same path as the one before. As far as this thread goes, this one is a goner. In the box now is Smith, just brought up from the AAA team this last week, where he was batting .370 against right-handed pitchers in night games on weekends when the moon is full. And here's the first pitch, a fastball from the young lefty Everson. And it's ... swung on and belted, deep to left field! The left fielder Hartman is up against the wall, but all he can do is watch this one fly away. That will send Green home as well, and now the game is tied at 2 all, and we'll be back after these few words.

c*cks*ckr -- you may write this word on this thread as often as you like. Then again, you don't have to write it if you don't want to, but that should go without saying (and don't you wish it had?).

m*th*rf*ckr -- as you can see, this word has one of the earlier words in it, and since that word is not from old English, this one can't be written here either.

t*ts -- what do you know, this is from old English too! Our forebears must have liked a little bit of good clean fun themselves, eh? Yes, I knew you would.

And now, for you and you alone, something I have never offered to any other buyer: for no more than you would spend for seven words, I will throw in not two, not three, but ONE free (eighth) word, which is yours to keep even if you choose not to take the first seven:

tw*t -- my wordbook says this word's roots are unknown. (I didn't say it would be a good free word!)

And now I shall leave off, and let wiser heads sift through what I've written for words that don't belong.

[ 31. July 2007, 06:49: Message edited by: MouseThief ]
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
****
I believe your fourth word is from Old English, but from what I have read, all the others are as you have said.

The fourth word is found written (but only once) in an Old English work, and is also found in all the nearest tongues to English (that is, all the North Sea tongues from the Netherlands to Denmark and beyond, which are the lands that the English themselves came from). It seems to me likely, then, that the English brought it with them.
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
NUTS! NUTS NUTS NUTS NUTS NUTS!

"just" is not OE. [Mad]
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
So if you would be so kind, strike out this:

just brought up from the AAA team this last week

and instead read this:

who this past Thursday was brought up from the AAA team
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
I think this gives new meaning to Mousethief being at a loss for words. [Razz]
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
I must ask.

May we make up new words from the Old English root words to speak of things which were not in the earlier days? I have in minds putting together far+speaker = farspeaker in stead of "the thing by which you can speak to a person far away". One could also in this way make Farseer or other words. Would this work within the game's canon?
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
Works for me. I think you should write it with the little - mark, however, like this: far-seer.

And "loss for words"? As if. If you don't mind me blowing my own horn (indeed, even if you do), my home-run play-by-play -- with, even, a dumb aside about the batter's silly numbers -- was one of my shining whatsits on this thread. One stray non-old-English word hardly makes for "at a loss for words".

An aside: I wonder why are there no old English words for bits of time smaller than a day?
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
An aside: I wonder why are there no old English words for bits of time smaller than a day?
I would think, though I could be wrong, that words for smaller bits of time were not needed. Times of day like "morning" or "afternoon" or "evening" were near enough.
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
Were there no monks in pre-1066 England? Did those monks not have names for the set times of the day at which they gathered? That doesn't strike me as too likely. I can't hear them saying, "Let us go to the church for mid-mornings." Though I'd be willing to put money on those words having come into English straight from Latin before 1066 (as did the monks).

[ 01. August 2007, 14:38: Message edited by: MouseThief ]
 
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
Were there no monks in pre-1066 England? Did those monks not have names for the set times of the day at which they gathered?
Of course, but they were words from the Romish tongue, and the things they did in church were also in that tongue. In those days, the time of day might sometimes be marked off with the help of a burning candle with marks set evenly all the way up it, then they would know when to ring a bell to call the monks to church. They would not have had much use for half or quarter of a candle mark. What they did in church took much longer than it does now, and other work also, because they didn't have hardware as we know it or the other things that make work so much faster (or are said to make work faster, that is, when they feel like working at all and don't break down and throw up tidings of woe).

[ 01. August 2007, 17:36: Message edited by: Ariel ]
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
It could be done in English, with "while". But it was rare and strange.

In Spring the sun rises at the sixth while of the morn.

I think we can have time and tide ,
day and night ,
week month and year ,
sennight and fortnight
midnight and midday (but not the N word which came here with the holy brothers)
dawn and dusk
morn and even, morning and evening
sunrise, sunset, cock-crow, and first light
while, and when and whenever
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
Were there no monks in pre-1066 England? Did those monks not have names for the set times of the day at which they gathered?
Of course, but they were words from the Romish tongue, and the things they did in church were also in that tongue.
What, then, is meant by "Old English"? If a word came into English from the Romish tongue, but came in before Old English had turned into Middle English, is that not Old English? Or are we going to say that for a word to be Old English, it must not only have been spoken in England before 1054, but it must have come before that from Old High D-Landish? Then we are not truly looking for Old English words at all, are we? We're looking for OHD words that also made it into Old English. We could push it back further than that, too, I'm sure. But let's not get silly.
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
What, then, is meant by "Old English"? If a word came into English from the Romish tongue, but came in before Old English had turned into Middle English, is that not Old English? . [/QB]
We have already talked about this. The answer is "yes".

Any word written in an Old English book, song or other writing is all right in this thread. So words like "plant", which came from Rome (the Old English knew the name of the great kingdom that had ruled the world for more than a thousand years), may be written here.

As long as it appears in an Old English writing, or the look-up books say that it was in Old English, it is good. And words from the Danes that settled England in Old English times are also good. Otherwise, we couldn't even say "they", "their" or "them". And anyway, they became English by 1066 (that's ten sixty six).
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
numbers
French
quote:
An aside: I wonder why are there no old English words for bits of time smaller than a day?
Forenoon, noon (or midday), afternoon, dawn, halflight, sun-up, sunrise, morning, sundown, twilight, evening, night.

But they didn't wear watches. Which seems odd, as "watches" comes from Old English.

Hmmm. The Old English had the word "bell", so we can always call the time like seamen (middle watch, morning watch, forenoon watch, afternoon watch, first dog watch, last dog watch, and first watch - with one to eight bells rung in each, other than in the dog watches. You can find out about all this on the web, if you look (think "Weaky Pea Dear" and look for "ship's bells")).

The dog watch is over. The first bell of the first watch has been rung - it is after eight thirty in the evening here.
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
1054
*cough* *cough* 1066.

Methinks your mind was on another time, when the pope and the bishop of the "New Rome" of the East parted ways.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
The Old English had the word "bell", so we can always call the time like seamen
But they did not have that new name for a "hound".
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
But they did not have that new name for a "hound".
This web page says that they did.

[ 03. August 2007, 00:28: Message edited by: Campbellite ]
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
numbers
French
I should have seen that, even being the dolt that I am.

quote:
quote:
An aside: I wonder why are there no old English words for bits of time smaller than a day?
Forenoon, noon (or midday), afternoon, dawn, halflight, sun-up, sunrise, morning, sundown, twilight, evening, night.
Ah, but those are not lengths of time, they are times of day. A dot, so to speak, not a stretch. I may not have said what I wanted very well. As ken showed, there are many old English words for lengths of time that are longer than a day. But few for lengths of time less than a day.

My asking about what makes a word old English was in answer to Arial, who seemed to want to say that if a word came from the Romish tongue, however early, it could not be used here. Which as you say is wrong.

And why 1054, you may ask? It stuck in my mind as the year when old English gave way to middle English, but in truth it was the year the eastern church and the western church broke asunder. I was thinking of Chaucer, but he was much later. So, my bad. It shows (as if there were any grounds for thinking otherwise) the swamp that is my brain. A lot goes in, but whether it will come out at all, or how much like what went in it will be when at last it does, is (are?) more than a little iffy.

[ 03. August 2007, 04:20: Message edited by: MouseThief ]
 
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
My asking about what makes a word old English was in answer to Ariel, who seemed to want to say that if a word came from the Romish tongue, however early, it could not be used here. Which as you say is wrong.
That wasn't what I meant. What I meant was that if you were going to speak of the church worship that was held in the morning, or at any other time throughout the day, you would have had to have a word that was Romish and had never been any other. The only one that can be named is None, if I understand aright, but it doesn't mean what it meant then and would be a play on words.* So I think we can all say that these names for the worship are out? It seemed to me that you might be saying that if they were known to the Old English at that time they'd be all right, but maybe that isn't what you meant.

(*I see, by the way, that while there is a word for laughter, there is no word for speaking of a story that made people laugh, or that someone may be the kind of person who finds many things laughable and can make others laugh. Fool is the nearest, but that isn't what I meant. The Frankish brought many words with them that spoke of things other than that which you could see or touch.)
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
person laughable Fool
Laugh is in, but "-able" is out, is it not?

"Person" and "Fool" are from French.
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
Ah, but those are not lengths of time, they are times of day. A dot, so to speak, not a stretch. I may not have said what I wanted very well. As ken showed, there are many old English words for lengths of time that are longer than a day. But few for lengths of time less than a day.
While forenoon lasts a while - is longer than a dot - I can see that you mean words for meting out time, as foot and inch mete out the lengths of things.

I can only think that the Old English, being farmers and fighters, had no need of such words. Or else the words have been lost, as so many other words were lost. I think the Danes today write "time" when they mean one twelfth of the daytime, although that does not help us much with English.

Anyway, the seaman word "watch" means one third of the day, other than the dog watches (from Old English docga, ken!) - which lasted only one sixth of a day. So "watch" is kind of a way of meting out time (doesn't Holy Writ talk of something lasting "but a watch of the night"?) But I think you are right, overall.

Eight bells have rung. I am late for bed. The middle watch is upon us (well, upon me).
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
I think we can all say that these names for the worship are out?
No, we cannot. MSHB said above that they are in, and I am saying they are in.

quote:
It seemed to me that you might be saying that if they were known to the Old English at that time they'd be all right, but maybe that isn't what you meant.
Yes, that is what I am saying, no more and no less (mostly). And that's what I think MSHB was saying above (up top there).

I think we all would say that a lot of old English words for daily things have dropped out of English. The Frankish word (was "gallic" in old English?) for the same thing took over, and it "died" so to speak, and was lost.

quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
I can only think that the Old English, being farmers and fighters, had no need of such words.
And the Franks were not fighters and farmers?

quote:
Anyway, the seaman word "watch" means one third of the day, other than the dog watches (from Old English docga, ken!) - which lasted only one sixth of a day.
I love the sound of a brass bell ringing the watches in two-bell "words". Such a sweet song! But I wonder how old this meaning of "watch" is. It may be that that "watch" meant "to keep watch" and the meaning "a part of the day" in the sailor's sense, came much later. (But as we have said, if words have old English roots, that will do also.)

[ 03. August 2007, 16:10: Message edited by: MouseThief ]
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
I think we can all say that these names for the worship are out?
No, we cannot. MSHB said above that they are in, and I am saying they are in.
So say we all. Well, I do anyway.

As for the lost words, we have already said that new ones may be made with Old English words bound in new ways. ("Far-speaker" as above.) I think, if you say also, that we can resurrect* words no longer spoken.

*Romish, I know, but it must have been known before 1066 in the church.
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
Agreed, Campbellite, on making new words based on old roots. But I like making my speech sound as unweird as I can (if you get my drift).
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
I understand, Mousethief, and you do it well.

In the morning, I will have breakfast with the men from a new church who are "nesting" at our church. The new church beginning works with men who are newly freed from the "Big House"; they help them find work and a dwelling. We are most glad to have them in our church house.

Afterwards, my wife and I hope to see a tale shone on a wall.

[almost wrote a bad (french) word.]

[ 04. August 2007, 04:35: Message edited by: Campbellite ]
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
What does that mean, "nesting" at your church? Do you mean they're not moving in, but they're staying there while they find somewhere else to live? Like birds that "nest" for a while in one place, then fly off to somewhere else? (Unlike birds that live in one tree (or such) for all their lives? Which birds do that? But this takes us far afield from what we were talking about. Whatever it was.)

It's too bad one can't say "for a short while but not forever" in one word, like the French do. Ah, well. We can't have everything. (Doesn't stop us from asking, though, does it? [Biased] )
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
*Romish, I know, but it must have been known before 1066 in the church.
There seems to be some misunderstanding here.

What we said before was: anything written in *Old English works* is in. But not words that were only written in works of the tongue of Rome. Yes, the Old English monks knew the word "resurrectio" - well, they did if they wrote or spoke the tongue of Rome. But that word never came into the Old English tongue, as far as I know. So it is out. But Romish "nona" (meaning "ninth") did become Old English, hence "noon" in English today. It need not worry us if the word has new meanings today - that happens all the time in every tongue. But the word must have been written in Old English works, not only in Romish works. It must have been *borrowed* in Old English times, as (say) offer, and plant, and even psalm were.

Here is something like it. Many English-speaking folk today know what "de rien" means (or "de nada" for those of you living in the New World). But those words are not part of the English tongue, they are French (or a sister tongue of French). So too, many Old English folk knew the Romish tongue - but the Romish tongue was not Old English. Only if the Old English borrowed those Romish words, and uttered them in the middle of speaking Old English, did those words become Old English themselves.

So words *borrowed* from Rome are in. But not any other Romish words known to the more learned monks who wrote and spoke in the Romish tongue itself.
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
Thank you, Campbellite. What you've said has that ring of truth. There are words that come into English, and then there are words that English speakers know, but never become English words themselves. In our own day, one of those words is "de rigeur" -- I know what I means, and I say it (or write it) from time to time, but it never really is English. And in writing, such as in a book, it would be written in those "leaning letters" with a foreign name. That's something I knew (somewhere in the farthest reaches of my brain), but hadn't thought of yet, at least as it has to do with roots of words. I love talking about things like this. There's so much to learn, and so many folks on the ship who can teach me.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
You are welcome, but it was not I. MHSB wrote that.

MT, by nesting, I mean that it is a new church which does not have a house of their own. They borrow our church house for worship on Saturday evenings. (The devil has had Saturday night for too long, their pastor says.)

Tomorrow afternoon, our church board meets, and I must lead it.

[ 05. August 2007, 03:19: Message edited by: Campbellite ]
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
Oh, I see! They are borrowing your house of worship for their own time of worship.

I wonder what the devil sees in Saturday? Although I must say the yardwork I have to do most Saturdays does seem a little devilish. Or, indeed, downright satanic. All right, it seems to be the breath of hell itself, blown up from the fathomless pits of the underworld to sear the hair from my eyebrows.

Maybe that's a bit over the top. But most Saturdays I can think of things I'd rather be doing.
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
really letters foreign
Truly outlandish words. But I am always amazed at how much MT writes in flowing English of the kind spoken today, while almost all his words are "in".

quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
a new church which does not have a house of their own
By the way, you may write "building" instead of "house" if you wish, as build and -ing come from Old English.

quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
satanic
Too devilish for this game?

My weekend. I spent Saturday at a church working bee, helping another man put some new water-pipes in a kitchen wall. On Monday, a team of workmen will be putting in new benches in the kitchen, as well as new sinks. So the water-pipes were needed *now*.

Sunday - church in the morning. Then home for the rest of the day. A day of rest, a day without worry.
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
Well, this weekend I went about, meeting up with folk I hadn’t seen since I went away, and hearing what’s been happening to them. Leaving out the things about sickness and so on (one good old dog had to be put down) the big matter to talk over was that a plot of land has been sold in the town! Ah! Small town living – where we all know who owned it, (though he hasn’t lived here for thirty years) and how much it went for, and are all deeply wondering what might be going to happen on the block – will they build? Will it be a house? A bed and breakfast? Will someone get work there? Truly, we care about all this – no less than eight neighbours have told me all about it in the last three days. Yes, not much happens here….
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bush baptist:
Leaving out the things about sickness and so on (one good old dog had to be put down) the big matter to talk over was that a plot of land has been sold in the town!
"Plot" was a good word. I had to look it up as I rather felt it might be French. But it wasn't. (Well, not when it is a plot of land.)

But "matter" is from French.

There is nothing like a good land or house sale to get everyone talking in a small town. It is the same where I live. Our church will not even ask the nearby house-sellers what our church building and land are worth, as the gossip would run wild that we were selling (and we are not).

So the yearly meeting - where the church leaders tell the others in the church what the church has been doing and spending - cannot say what the true worth of the land and building are. We dare not find out, owing to all the gossip it would stir up.

Sigh. Sometimes you wonder "Small town, small minds." But when you read the news from big towns, you see that their minds are every bit as small too ("Look at what young Hilton is doing now!"). Only they don't know each other well enough in big towns to gossip about anyone they know. They can only read gossip in the news, all about "stars" far away.
 
Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :
 
There is nothing worth gossiping about in my town and I do not wish to know what my house and land are worth, never mind the cathedral where I worship.
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
Rats! I look up some of these words over and over (I have an online word-book I like a lot, and they show up in the "words you have looked up before" box iykwim) when I write them there), but still some words get by me.

As for my weekend, my wife and I had a great day yesterday. Our littlest was at his best friend's house, so we had some time to ourselves, which we don't get any too often. We drove up to a town about 25 miles north and west of here (with a French name that means "some monks"). There we went to one of those gatherings where growers sell the food they have grown. (There's a French word for that (well, two words), but if there's a word in English for it, I don't know it.) We bought some goat cheese and some honey.

After that we went to a wine shop in that town, where they offer small bits of wine for folks to drink (I don't do the spit thing) so you can see what you like or don't like. We bought two of those, one delightfully dry like I like them, and one kinda sweeter like my wife likes them. Plus we bought many others. We dropped over 100 bucks on wine. [Hot and Hormonal]

Then for our mid-day meal we ate food from that land just south of our land, our land being -- hmm, how to say this in English? -- the brought-together lands of the landmass west of England and across the sea. (How I miss those French words!)

After that we came back to our hometown, where they had shut down the streets in the heart of town so folks could set up tables and sell their wares -- crafts and hand-made things, most of them rather dull. When we saw that this was that weekend (they do this once a year), we went home and got the dog and walked back downtown (about half a mile -- it's a smallish town) and looked around, up one side of the street and down the other. We didn't see anything we felt we had to buy, so we walked home again. But it was good to be out and about with my lovely wife and our maybe-too-friendly dog.

While we were downtown a lot of folks asked us about the dog, what breed he is, how old he is, and such. Many asked if they could stroke his fur, which he loves. He is the sweetest dog, and loves to meet new folks. Sadly he startled a little four-year-old boy, who reached out to stroke him on the side when he wasn't looking, making him twitch and look around quickly. So we stayed a while and talked with the little boy and his mother. The boy was so shy, and the dog was so glad to see him, that they had a hard time getting along. The dog would want to kiss the boy, which made him shy away; then the dog would settle down, and the boy would reach out, but that would make the dog put his head forward and try to kiss the boy again, and so forth.

It was a great day, of the kind we don't get any too often.
 
Posted by Pearl B4 Swine (# 11451) on :
 
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by bush baptist:
Leaving out the things about sickness and so on (one good old dog had to be put down)
_______________________________

If I may write my first, shy words in this fine thread - your words about the old dog leaped out in a very telling way, to me. I also have only a fortnight ago found it needful to put down a dear pet. Fully fifteen years of age, he was a small white earth-working dog, whose delight it was to rid the home and nearby land of small vermin and other filthy beings.

I am heavy-hearted, even now. His foot steps are no more heard about the place. And his sharp voice no longer tells of people coming near our buildings.

Having lost his sense of hearing, seeing and reasoning, he was no longer finding joy, of any kind, in life. Alas. His loss is hard to bear.

One question for the others who write here: I see the word "house" used very much, and I think that this word comes most directly from the German speech. Is this allowed? I ask your forgiveness if this question makes you roll your eyes. The wit you display, all of you, is most delightful.

Pearl Before Hopefully-disease-free Swine
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
Pearl, I am so sorry to hear about your beloved dog. I pray that even now he has found rest and freedom from all sickness, and that he ails no more forever.

Nevertheless, I would be the thief of mice that I am if I did not tell of the words you wrote which are not from Old English:

quote:
Originally posted by Pearl B4 Swine:
fine
pet
vermin
place
voice
people
sense
reasoning
joy,
question
allow
display
roll
disease
About "house" -- this word was in Old English (as "hus"), and also found its way into German. There are many words like this -- they grew from one root, and came down into both tongues.

[ 05. August 2007, 22:16: Message edited by: MouseThief ]
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
Sorry, "I would not be the thief of mice that I am."
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
PB4Swine, I truly feel for you, about your little friend. I recall when my dear little dog, Grendel, died, (hit in the road) how wrenched I was. The man who wrote the verses “If”, said “Brothers and sisters I bid you beware, of giving your heart to a dog to tear”, which may not be great verse, but yes, it hits the mark with the feeling (and is all English.) (The good old dog I spoke of before was a neighbour’s – little Daisy; her sister Splot is looking lost and unhappy.)
As has been said (I see above) the word “house” is English, but goes back an older language still, marks of which can be heard in many lands (the Netherlands, for one). The word doesn’t sound the same in all those lands; it only happens to sound the same in English and the one you name; it could just as easily have sounded the way it does in Scotland.
“Pet” is interesting – I don’t know where it came from, unless from French word for “little” by way of the Scots.

[ 05. August 2007, 22:56: Message edited by: bush baptist ]
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
I see it! Kindly wash out "just"!
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
Oh, dear! And wash out "interesting". I was so taken with thinking about the other word that I wandered into French.
 
Posted by Pearl B4 Swine (# 11451) on :
 
quote:
-----------Originally posted by Pearl B4 Swine:
fine
pet
vermin
place
voice
people
sense
reasoning
joy,
question
allow
display
roll
disease

ROTFLMBO ( I'm sure that is an Old English word ) Go on with your work now. [Razz]

Pearl
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
Today was a good day, though there was much to do. Our worship went well. One of our elder men sang a song by himself. He is not as skilled as he once was, but he did well. I was one of the two elders who asked God's blessing at the Lord's Table. The other elder with me today is full of years, and needs a wheelchair. He has had cancer* for five years and is weak, but he hangs in there.

After our noon meal, our board met. The one boardmate, who is most often the naysayer, did not make a stink. (Whatever the board talks about, she's against it. Bless her heart.) A good meeting.

Afterwards, our elders met to pray for the sick folk in our church. One person in my parish is in the sick-house after being hit while crossing a street. Next Sunday I will be taking the bread and cup to some of our shut-ins, as we do once a month.

*OE from the Romans
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
delightfully Plus ...

hmm, how to say this in English? -- the brought-together lands of the landmass west of England and across the sea. (How I miss those French words!)
The northern New World? New England and beyond? Land of milk and honey? The Great Kingdom in the New World? A-Merry-Can-Land (so-called as they like their cans of beer)?

quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
fur stayed
"stay" as in rope holding up the mast is good. But the other word meaning "to keep oneself there a while" is from French. Thus saith the online word book (I am at work and cannot get to my learned books at home).

Did not WC Fields warn us about children and dogs - that they steal the limelight? Even in your weekend tale.

I can see where you get "tables" from. My first thought was to call it "out". Good thing I looked it up. Learning a little French at school (such as "sur la table") made me think of the word as French. One keeps learning in this thread.
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
person parish
Thou Frenchman, thou!

But I always knew the French had left their mark in the New World.
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
"stay" as in rope holding up the mast is good. But the other word meaning "to keep oneself there a while" is from French. Thus saith the online word book (I am at work and cannot get to my learned books at home).
Shit! I've gotten this one wrong before! You'd think I would learn from my mistakes.
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
I always knew the French had left their mark in the New World.
But with a hose, the right kind of nozzle, and a good deal of water, I think we can wash most of it away.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
person parish
Thou Frenchman, thou!

But I always knew the French had left their mark in the New World.
You are right, alas. The first one I knew. A little digging tells me that the second word took over the OE "priest-shire".

Mousethief, sometimes I think the french-speakers to our north forget that they lost to the English (led by Wolfe) at that town whose name means "King's-Hill".

I must hold that one in mind for later.
Bishopric should be alright, too.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
Thank God it's Friday!

This week has been dreadful. The woman next door came home. She needs more help than our building offers. Another is caught in the gap for her healing-worts toll. She is understandably worried. Then there is the woman whose son ought not be staying here overnight, but is nonetheless.

They all want us to make all these things right.

Enough already! We are not on call this weekend. [Yipee]

I will be looking to buy some new hardware (which shows output you can see) tomorrow. The old one went dark, and the one I am borrowing must go back to the owner. Blithe day!

So what are you other slackers doing?
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
Well, I spent the day today helping out in the town shed, and speaking with folk who had come in, as if they wanted to buy something, but more truly so they could be with someone. One is a big boy who is not bright at all, but he likes to hang out and talk – I like it too. We sat in the sun part of the time and waved to passing wains, and laughed when they waved back, and more so if they blew their horns at us. Then there was a man – also not too bright – who wandered around the shed, fingering things – I found him harder to deal with, partly (I am ashamed to say) because he smelt a bit, and partly because he once had a name for doing wrong to little girls. Poor lonely man. And then there was a woman whose brother-in-law has died; she wanted to talk, too, about the fights there had been between all the kin – so much sorrow in the world, so much sorrow we make for ourselves.
 
Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
So what are you other slackers doing?
I've been working. In between I learnt how to drive a wagon on a two-lane high-speed road. I liked this a lot. The only bit I didn't like was the bit at the beginning and end where you have to go on a road that is in no way straight.

This weekend I'm having a rest. I went out for breakfast and now that I'm back I'm going to watch a play on the silver box. I borrowed four of these from the nearby House of Books, which is open to all. They're about a man who wakes up after his wagon bangs into something and finds he's gone back in time to 1973. He's one of those men who hunts thieves and murderers. I think that in the end he does go home to his own time but I can't swear to it yet. If you live in England you may have seen this.

Also, as some of you know a few weeks ago it rained heavily and the iron horses stayed at home. Today the folk who own them sent me a gift to make up for it, which means that I can go somewhere else for free. I'm hoping it'll be enough to get me to the sea for a weekend.

(Right. Now you can all tell me everything I got wrong.)
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
caught understandably staying
"catch" is a kind of northern French, not Old English (even though "caught" looks like "taught", which is from Old English).

"understand" - yes ... "able" - no (see Alaric's laws of this game at the top of the thread. New words are alright only if they are put together from words that came from Old English, like "weekend").

"stay" I have written about more than once above. "Stay" (rope on mast) is in; but when it means "keep somewhere for a while", it is out (from French). They are two words that look the same, but do not come from the same tongue.

quote:
Originally posted by bush baptist:
boy
Many have given their thoughts about where "boy" comes from. None of these thoughts are "Old English" - mostly they say French/Romish or from the Netherlands. So ... hard to say where it comes from - but never written in Old English.

quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
wagon
"wagon" - already written about in this thread. "Wain" is from Old English (in); "wagon" is from the Netherlands (out). Sometimes English likes to borrow a word it already has - like skin (and shin); skirt (and shirt) - but those sk- words come from the Danish settlers in Old England, so they are alright in this game.

About my weekend? Nothing very great - no talking with lonely folk (a worthwhile deed), nor looking out for neighbours throughout the week (hard work, I can well believe).

I played with the hardware last night and some of today, even writing some software (it worked better than I thought it would, and I liked writing it, but no one else would want it, I think).

But mostly, my household and I drove a long way over to a great big shop where they sell all kinds of household goods, like stools and tables, beds, cupboards, and so on. The owners of the shop live near Denmark and are well-known all over the world for their household wares. Often you have to put them together yourself. Maybe you know the shop. Their wares have odd names that seem like old Danish words sometimes. To my ear, the name of the shop seems like the words "I key a". One room in the shop looked like it was more than three floors high, with shelves all the way up to the roof.

We bought a few things - like boxes for my wife to hold her belongings in. We looked at cupboards and tables for the living room, to put against the wall. But we didn't buy any. I think my wife wants to borrow a big enough horseless cart to bring the cupboard home, and then she will buy it. Today she only wanted me to look at the cupboard. So I did.

We also ate there, as it was midday. As we went into the shop, a woman was handing out sweets to all the folk coming in. Well it seemed good until I found out that the sweets were sticky and stuck to my teeth - a bit like honeycomb, but worse. Oh well.
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
So long as your teeth didn't leave your mouth -- do you think that woman handing out sweets maybe worked for a tooth-puller?
 
Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :
 
Does that mean that dentist and oral surgeon are not old English words?
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
Does that mean that d... and o... s... are not old English words?
Two Latin, one Greek
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
In reply to Sir Kevin:
quote:
Does that mean that d... and o... s... are not old English words?
However did they get along without them? -- no wonder toothache is an Old English word! [Biased] If we follow MSHB's line that to have the word is to have the thing, and from that, not to have the word is not to have the thing, I guess grisly tooth-pulling was all you could get in Old England. (But if Ethelred was Unready for this, he could have chewed garlic to fight the rot -- and steered well away from all those sweets!)
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bush baptist:
So long as your teeth didn't leave your mouth -- do you think that woman handing out sweets maybe worked for a tooth-puller?
She was clothed like the other men and women working in the shop. I do think the shop wanted us to feel "sweet" about them, but I found it to be more of a worry than a sweetener.

I am glad that no parts of my teeth fell out this time - but it would not be the first time that eating sticky sweets made bits of tooth or fillings come away. I might add that my tooth healer is more of a tooth filler than a tooth puller. It has been a long time since I had a tooth pulled out.

I wonder what King Alfred called his tooth healer? I guess being king means that you can tell them: "Listen, tooth healer. If it smarts too much, then you get the axe. So be careful with that tooth-borer."
 
Posted by Wet Kipper (# 1654) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
One room in the shop looked like it was more than three floors high, with shelves all the way up to the roof.
given that you have already used the words "ware" and "house", could you have descibed this high room as a warehouse ?
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Wet Kipper:
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
One room in the shop looked like it was more than three floors high, with shelves all the way up to the roof.
given that you have already used the words "ware" and "house", could you have descibed this high room as a warehouse ?
As someone who doesn't go into these shops often, I didn't think of that. Yes, the household wares shop had a great big warehouse full of goods, stacked up to the roof, as well as many showrooms with goods set out for buyers to walk about and look at.

Shop - showrooms - warehouse - those Old English must have done a lot of shopping. I can see King Alfred now, dragging his shopping cart through all the showrooms, looking at some new benches and stools and cupboards for his great house. The queen (Ealhswith) would say, "That cupboard would look good up against the living room wall. I wonder if they have it in white? But I want the doors with frosted glass and silver handles."

Hmm "set" - good if "to set out"; not good if "a set of things". Yet another word that is indeed two words, one from Old English and one borrowed from the French or Rome.

Church this morning. The speaker spoke about the kingdom of God - a key thought running through all of Holy Writ. Not many turned up - less than other Sundays, but we sang well anyway. The offering was also big for such a small fellowship gathering.

And the water outside was a sight for sore eyes (as ever), with the sun shining bright on this warm winter's day (our church building is on the strand - the seaside with lots of lovely golden sand). There were even men, women and children swimming and playing in the water and on the sand. And boats floating at anchor. As they say in another tongue I know, "The sun was smiling".
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
MSHB,

I see that "cart" the thing can be said. But "cart" the deed cannot. Am I right about that?

I will go to church in a short while. (I am on the east coast of the Western land, so it is earlier here than in England.) I will stand as elder at the Lord's Table today.

After worship we will be sending off some of our children to church camp*. For the midday meal we will have Italian pie (flat crust with meat on top).

I will then take a deacon along to bring bread and cup to our shut-ins.

* As there were Roman warriors in England before 1066, would I be right in thinking that this word was already in the English tongue?
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
MSHB,

I see that "cart" the thing can be said. But "cart" the deed cannot. Am I right about that?
I don't see anything wrong with "cart" the deed - it comes from the same word, only it has been turned into a doing word rather than a thing-word. But it comes from the same word in Old English. New meanings for old words happen all the time - and new ways to put words together (else how is it lawful in this game to write "hardware"?)
quote:
camp*. * As there were Roman warriors in England before 1066, would I be right in thinking that this word was already in the English tongue?
"Camp" and "warrior" are from French. The fighters from Rome, who came before the English, said "campus" when they meant a field (hence a field to fight in or the fight itself: as in "campaign" and "Mein Kampf").

The Middle English borrowed "camp" (sleeping out in the fields) from the French. Old English did have a word "camphad" ("camp-hood") meaning "fighting", so it is hard to say that they didn't know the word at all. It seems like one of those words that was borrowed more than once - once as "fighting" (in Old English) and later as "sleeping out" (in Middle English). My word book calls "to camp" northern French.

quote:
pie crust
French - they liked their food and gave it all new names when they came to England.

Your church seems to send the bread and the cup out often to shut-ins. The early church did the same - caring for those who cannot come (like the sick and elderly). Believers would even take home some of the bread to eat, bit by bit, throughout the week. So the fellowship of the table lasted all week, not only part of Sunday. A fellowship of everyone, all the time. Shut-ins too!

And now this reader of word books must go to sleep - it is well after twelve midnight.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
Yes, we do. At one stop we had five elder folks (one of them was from a sister-church in the 'Burg). I brought along a new deacon to show him how to do these things. (He's only 24 and not too bold.)

I do not yet have any new hardware for sight output. I had hoped to buy one last weekend but could not. The one I have now is borrowed, and needs to go back.
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
In our church there are two "kinds" of bread that come from the same loaf. We use yeast in our churchly bread, which I know is not done in the West, at least in the older times. Indeed, that was one of the things that led to the breaking apart of the Eastern and Western churches. But back to what I was saying.

The loaf is baked into a shape like a wheel (not with spokes of course; don't be silly). Before baking, shapes are put into the top of the loaf (with a tool) that are still there after baking. In the innermost part there is a box shape. This is called the "lamb" and is cut out, and becomes (in our belief) the body of our Lord. Only the priest and the deacons actually handle this with their hands. The priest puts it in the cup with the wine (which is our Lord's blood), and we eat from the spoon the priest holds out.

The rest of the loaf is blessed, but not in the same way as the lamb. It does not become our Lord's body. It is put into a big bowl, and we are free to take some once the church time is over. We say that it is blessed in much the same way the bleeding woman was blessed when she took hold of our Lord's clothes. We bless her by eating it.

We can also take some of this bread (it has a Greek name which I don't know how to translate into English) home with us, and eat it throughout the week, often with a drink of holy water.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
translate
I do not know this Romish word.

Do you mean, "how to say" antidoron in English? How about "fore-given" bread?

Our church elders bless the bread and cup, which is what I did at each of the homes we went to. The young deacon was there to help make everything ready, and to pass the bread and cup to the folk we called on.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
Oh gladsome day!

This evening I bought a new bit of hardware with which to see output! Half again as big as the old one. It was at Best Buy and marked down from 200 to only 130 greenbacks.

[Now I need to find a new main box to put under it. [Razz] ]
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
I wouldn't say "given" because it's not English. The first bit of the word means "instead of". It's the second half that I had a hard time saying in English. As have you. [Razz]
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
I wouldn't say "given" because it's not English.
Yes it is. O.E. giefan (West Saxon)

quote:
The first bit of the word means "instead of". It's the second half that I had a hard time saying in English. As have you. [Razz]
And I wrote "fore" to mean "not yet" blessed. That the word looks like "forgive" just happened.
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
Yes, we do. At one stop we had five elder folks (one of them was from a sister-church in the 'Burg). I brought along a new deacon to show him how to do these things. (He's only 24 and not too bold.)

I do not yet have any new hardware for sight output. I had hoped to buy one last weekend but could not. The one I have now is borrowed, and needs to go back.
Some of the folk at my church run an all-day get together for the elderly every Monday. So I can understand (and think highly of) the work your church does, going to shut-ins and keeping them linked to the rest of the world ... and to God.

It goes well with that saying "For I was hungry and you gave me food...I was sick or in the lock-up and you came to me ...".

Another at-home Saturday for me, resting and forgetting the weekdays of work. Nothing big happening. Tomorrow church.

Working the keyboard and mouse without the sight output box to watch is rather hard going, I think. You had better get a new one quick.
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
I wouldn't say "given" because it's not English.
Yes it is. O.E. giefan (West Saxon)
My wordbook says it didn't come into English that way. It is akin to giefan (and many other words that look like it), but that is not where it came from; it came into Middle English from the Danes.
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
The antidoron is not "not yet blessed". It is blessed, just not blessed so that it becomes our Lord's body. And it never will be blessed that way. Thus, "fore" meaning "before" is wrong there. The anti means "instead of".
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
I wouldn't say "given" because it's not English.
Yes it is. O.E. giefan (West Saxon)

quote:
The first bit of the word means "instead of". It's the second half that I had a hard time saying in English. As have you. [Razz]
And I wrote "fore" to mean "not yet" blessed. That the word looks like "forgive" just happened.
Nothing wrong with "given" that I can see. It comes from the Danes who settled in Old England.

The Old English word "giefan" would have become something like "yiven" (the 'g' before 'i' or 'e' was spoken more like our 'y', hence 'yellow' from Old English 'geolu'), but we took up the word that the Danes said, with the "hard g".

No worries about it, anyway, in my book. The word got to England before the French did.
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
I think. You had better get a new one quick.
And I see that you have ... I must have overlooked some things that you all wrote...
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
It got to England, but did it get into English? My wordbook says no. The two are not the same thing.
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
actually bowl(=is good) translate
Campbellite already spoke about "translate".

"Actually" is as Romish as they come (if you drop the -ly off).

"Bowl" I had to look up. It is good if it is hollow (like a bowl you drink from). But bad if you are playing a game and casting things along the ground or the floor. You meant the hollow drinking "bowl", so you were right.
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
It got to England, but did it get into English? My wordbook says no. The two are not the same thing.
MT Alaric spoke about this at the beginning, when he gave the laws for this game.
quote:
The first thing Alaric wrote was:
How about we see if we can write using words (from 'today') whose roots are only in Old English or Old Norse?...
You are not to use any words not used in the last two hundred years but can use words like ‘weekend’ so long as the bits are both/all from Old English/Norse.
Any word from the Danes who settled in Old England (which is what Alaric meant by "Old Norse") can be written in this thread, even if it only showed up in English writing after 1066. Otherwise we cannot even say "they", "their" and "them".

This has already been thrashed out on this thread. Even though the thread is called "Old English", the laws of Alaric the Goth said "Old English or Old Norse". It is French or Romish words that have to show up in Old English writings, if they are to be lawfully written in this thread.
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
I'm sorry! I blew it this time. I did not draw the link between your "it was in England" and what was said earlier about Old Norse.

You and I both know that there were many tongues spoken within the shores of fair England before 1066. I was bewitched by this misleading truth, and did not bring to mind the other truth, namely that the tongue spoken by the Danes was Old Norse, and Old Norse is as good as Old English for this thread. You tried to throw sand in my eyes, didn't you? You wicked fellow.

Sadly, my wordbook says only that "give" is from "Scandinavian" roots, but does not say what those roots are. It does not say "old Norse" which is most unhelpful. I mean that it does not say it is unhelpful, not that old Norse is unhelpful. Not that old Norse has ever helped me any, Lord knows, however much I ask.

This weekend my fair wife and I are going, with some friends, to see a play (well, 2 plays) by a fellow who wasn't born yet in 1066, but whose name is made by putting together two good English words like so: Shakespeare. One of the plays is about a king whose first name starts with "R" and whose last name is III (I do not know when his first name came into English). I am told this is a good play. Also a play about two lordly men from a town whose name comes from the Romish word for truth. I have seen this play before, but it was long ago and I cannot bring to mind anything about it.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
My webpage says that King's name was brought over by the french in 1066.

BUT, The name breaks down into "Ric" = king and "Hard" = strong. Both OE words.

SO, it may not have been written down, but might have been around before the french came.

[ 18. August 2007, 17:51: Message edited by: Campbellite ]
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
Oh, Mousethief, about the bread that is not our Lord's body, I am aware that it is truly blessed, but not in the same way that the lamb is blessed. I was looking for short and sweet, not deep Godtalk. Sorry.

[ETA: How about saying "Instead bread"?]

[ 18. August 2007, 17:57: Message edited by: Campbellite ]
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
My webpage says that King's name was brought over by the french in 1066.

BUT, The name breaks down into "Ric" = king and "Hard" = strong. Both OE words.

SO, it may not have been written down, but might have been around before the french came.
Ric is OE "kingdom" (rather like the third "Reich" in a sister tongue of English), not "king" (Old English "cyning", later "cyng"). But that does not make "Richard" from OE.

Many French names come from the *Franks further east*, who spoke a sister tongue of English (they call it "Deutsch"). Thus many Frankish words and names came into English by way of the French (like "war").

And "page" would be French.
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
Oh, Mousethief, about the bread that is not our Lord's body, I am aware that it is truly blessed, but not in the same way that the lamb is blessed. I was looking for short and sweet, not deep Godtalk. Sorry.

[ETA: How about saying "Instead bread"?]
Well since "give" is to be a good word to use, we can say "instead gifts" which is what it means.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
Well since "give" is to be a good word to use, we can say "instead gifts" which is what it means.
Looks like we have a winner!

After worship yesterday, my wife and I ate with our preacher and his wife. Our wives are teaching Sunday School this fall, and they were getting ready for this.

Jane is a school teacher, and they start back today. Pray for her, she had a melt down from so much being heaped on her at work. (And I bid you pray for her husband as well.)
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
After worship yesterday, my wife and I ate with our preacher and his wife.
You can eat with a knife and fork, but you cannot eat with a "preacher". They're French. Don't be taken in by the -each ending, or it looking like "teacher".

quote:
Pray for her
Sadly, we cannot "pray" either, but we can bid, and even offer up our beads (a "bead" is a bidding - later it came to mean the string of little things that one held while bidding God).

Does the school now see that they must hold back from giving Jane too much of a load? Or is she stepping back into the same old worries? (I take it that Jane is the wife of your church speaker?)
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
You can eat with a knife and fork, but you cannot eat with a "preacher".
Nor indeed with a P***t, P****r, M*****r, B*****p, D*****n, A**h D****n, D**n, R***l D**n, V****r, R****r, C***yman, SkyP***t, P***e, C*****n, E*******t, M*******y or P****e.

You can, however, sup with a Godbotherer
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
I think that MBSH will tell me if I am mistaken, but it comes to me that bishop, and deacon (and likely priest) are words we may say or write. These words are Romish, but were spoken by the English before 1066.
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
I think that MBSH will tell me if I am mistaken, but it comes to me that bishop, and deacon (and likely priest) are words we may say or write. These words are Romish, but were spoken by the English before 1066.
Bishop is from Old English "biscop". Priest from OE "preost", and deacon from OE "diacon" and "deacon" (it was written both ways). By the time the French came, these words had been in English for hundreds of years.

Calling the words "Romish" is not altogether true. They came, first of all, from the tongue of the Eastern Church, being found in Holy Writ itself: episkopos, presbyteros, and diakonos. The church of Rome borrowed the words from the east.

By the way, "arch-" (as in archbishop) was borrowed in Old English times too, so archbishop, archdeacon and archpriest are lawful in this thread. And "pope" is another, as well as "monk" (OE munuc) and "nun" (OE "nunne"). Oh, and "mass" (as said in church every Sunday).

As you can see, many churchy words were borrowed long before the French came to England.
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
As you can see, many churchy words were borrowed long before the French came to England.
Although I wouldn't find it too odd to learn that one or two came to the Island before 1066, if only to look around, take in the sights, and so forth. Maybe to seek health at the hot springs at Bath, or to buy and sell goods in London.

I had thought that Augustine of Canterbury was from France, but looking online I see that we don't know where he was born or when. Sad, that.

I wonder if our learned Old English scholars can say whether "saint" is an O.E. word? The pre-1066 English must have had a word for these holy men and women? Or maybe they just said "The Holy" in front of their names. Which is, after all, what "saint" means. But perhaps they said something like "sanc" and that was updated to "saint" when the French came. Well, when lots of them came. To take over. Ye gods, there are words I miss.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
Today, by way of thanks, the head of the building where we work is taking all of us out to eat. we will be feasting on cowflesh passed over the fire. We will also have time off work.

Her head, Scott, is also with us. He often has gifts for us as well - shirts with the House mark sewn on the front. He means well.

Tomorrow, I must go to church for the burial of an elderly saint. We will be taking much food to his house for his widow and family.
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
As you can see, many churchy words were borrowed long before the French came to England.
Although I wouldn't find it too odd to learn that one or two came to the Island before 1066, if only to look around, take in the sights, and so forth. Maybe to seek health at the hot springs at Bath, or to buy and sell goods in London.

I had thought that Augustine of Canterbury was from France, but looking online I see that we don't know where he was born or when. Sad, that.
Come on! I meant by "the French coming to England" the coming of the evil William who killed the last true English king Harold at Hastings. Nothing to do with French folk coming over on holidays before that time.

My goodness!

quote:
I wonder if our learned Old English scholars can say whether "saint" is an O.E. word? The pre-1066 English must have had a word for these holy men and women? Or maybe they just said "The Holy" in front of their names. Which is, after all, what "saint" means. But perhaps they said something like "sanc" and that was updated to "saint" when the French came. Well, when lots of them came. To take over. Ye gods, there are words I miss.
Um, no "saints" here, just some hallows. But the Old English did borrow "sanct", which they could put before names. I do not think any word nowadays can be said to come straight from that word. The true English word was "hallow".

"Hallow" was and is both a doing word ("hallowed be thy name") and a thing-word (as in "Potter and the Deathly Hallows" by Rowling). It comes from the same root word as holy.

A hallow is someone or something that has been hallowed, or made holy. And the holiday to say how great all the old hallows were is "All Hallows' Day", and the evening before it is called "All Hallows' Eve" or "Hallow E'en".

I thought you Merry-Cans would have known that, seeing you make merry on that evening (something we don't go in for here in the Great South Land - we see it as a New World thing, uncouth to us).

The Church of the East acknowledges many hallows.

Campbellite - "saints" was never in.
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
Oh, my! How tired I am – the weekend was very full, though not with work. We had a shared meal after church (guests were coming from other churches) so I thought I would spend Saturday afternoon cooking. But as I was walking back to my house a man I know drove past -- almost. He stopped and we talked, and then he said, did I want to come back to his house for a hot drink? I said, I’d love to come, but not for the drink, rather for the fellowship (my husband is away and it gets a bit lonely sometimes). So we went back, and his good friend said, I don’t much want a hot drink either – so we had wine – two big glasses, which is enough to set me on my ear, and talked a lot about death and dying (because one of them’s father has died only recently) and heaven and last things -- you know how you do when you’re full of wine. And then I went back to my house and went to bed, and so had to cook late at night. And then Sunday was full on, so I had to do the mowing today instead, and now my hair is full of dust. Though it’s only late winter (ha!), the last two days have come in hot, an earnest of the summer to come, and the mowing kicked up a lot of dust. I hate that.
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
What word or words can we use when we want to speak of a bit of something? Especially a short stretch of time in something that that is larger? Such as, that bit of the church time when words from one of the books of the Holy Paul are read. Another is the time when the Holy Gospel is read. Another is when the priest prays over the holy bread and wine. I hope by now you get my drift.

The church time is made up of a set of these bits, one after another. I can think of a lot of French words that can be used for these "bits". But I am having a hard time coming up with an Old English word to use. I want a word I can shove into this:

The Gospel Reading is a ______ of the church time.

All I can think of is "bit" which is lame. But a shitload of French words come to mind. And I hate that.
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bush baptist:
very because recently
"very" from French "verai" (meaning true/truly). Maybe "truly" itself would do? "because" holds within itself the Romish "causa".
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
especially larger use (x3) prays set
Thy word-book shall make thee understand thy sins. I do but cast the stones. (but I do say this: "set" as in "set it on the seat" is good; but not when it means "many things together", which comes from French, from the same word as "sect").

As for the more meaty part of your tale, do you ask after a word meaning a time *at* which something happens (where a time is a "spot" with no length), or do you mean a short length of time?

Anyway, here are some words (that likely do not meet your need!): time, timespan, timespot, spell, while (as thing-word), tide (as in Eastertide), ... but maybe I don't understand what you are wanting to say.

For me, this game has two parts. One is knowing (or having the books to find out) which words are lawful. That is the knowledge part of the game.

The other is thinking of another way of saying what you want to say, when it turns out that the words you want to say are not lawful in this game. That is the skill part of the game.

Sometimes you have to turn what you want to say inside out and upside down, to find a lawful way of saying it. It truly puts your writing skills (and brain) to their match.

By the way, you can say "part". It was borrowed and written in OE times. Readings and the offering are parts of the mass - or church meeting if you like. "We got up to this part of the mass ... after that part ..." and so on.

This little night owl needs to do other things now, so that he can go to sleep before midnight. *
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
I drove up to the big house of healing yesterday. We have a boy* in our church who is truly sick. The healers up there had to cut him open to take out the sick parts. He hurts greatly, but is getting better. I took his grandmother up to be with him, and brought his mother back home to look after his older sister.

Jeremy is the boy I wrote of earlier who spent a week off in the woods with some of our youth. His heart was touched by the time spent there. His home life is not the best, but the church folk are all doing what we can to make things better for him and his sister.

*He is called after the hallowed Jerome, "Jeremy" for short.
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
I thought part was not good for this thread; my word-book gave its Middle English roots but not Old English or Old the other one. That's what I wanted to say.
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
I thought part was not good for this thread; my word-book gave its Middle English roots but not Old English or Old the other one. That's what I wanted to say.
Well, "part" is found in Old English writings, written the same way as we write it, and meaning the same thing. I read this in my most learned book about the Old English tongue (Campbell's "Old English Grammar", Oxford UP).

And the Shorter Oxford, that well-known and highly-thought-of word book, writes "OE" first next to "part", then it says that the word was also in French (both tongues got the word from Rome). So maybe the French and English words were blended after 1066, but English already had it before then.

So between the Shorter Oxford and my learned book in OE, I would call it a lawful word in this game.

Campbellite. I am sorry, but you can't have "boys" at church. Young men, youths, even "teens" and children (would you call more than one man-child "men-children"?), but not the French "boys".

And I would also ask you not to "touch" his heart. The French may have taken that word from their Eastern Frankish brothers, who spoke our sister tongue, but we took it from the French. We did not have the same word already in English.

Nevertheless I am glad to hear that the man-child or youth (it all hangs on how old he is) is being helped by good friends. He is another one of your shut-ins to whom you go and bring gladness and a bit of fellowship and the knowledge that others care about him.

How is your friend Jane (?), the teacher who was overwhelmed at her work last school year? Is she back teaching at school again now?

(ETA: to take out a Romish word. Aaaagh unclean)

[ 30. August 2007, 11:44: Message edited by: MSHB ]
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
Jeremy is nine years old, and has come home from the House of Healing. No longer shut-in, he will be in my wife's Sunday School this weekend. Today she and I spent time cleaning up the room and adding a new hue to the walls.

Jane is feeling better as well. Now that school is under way, she has found that the children she teaches are much more likely to work with her than against her, unlike last year.
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
Jeremy is nine years old, and has come home from the House of Healing. No longer shut-in, he will be in my wife's Sunday School this weekend. Today she and I spent time cleaning up the room and adding a new hue to the walls.

Jane is feeling better as well. Now that school is under way, she has found that the children she teaches are much more likely to work with her than against her, unlike last year.
I am glad to hear that things are going better for Jane. You asked us to think of her when we were talking to God, so I was wondering how she was getting on. May this year be better for her than last year - the whole year long!

Well done with "hue": a good Old English word. I had to look it up, as I didn't know off the top of my head. Learned something new. But "add" is out (the kindred word "addition" should tell you that it comes from Rome). You can put a new hue - or another hue - on the walls if you wish. "Put" is such a handy word.

Sunday, as ever, was church. Once a month on the first Sunday of the month we have a "mid-morning meal" church - not breakfast, but sweet foods (like cakes) and hot drinks. We sit at tables and talk with each other about anything, and then talk with each other about something from Holy Writ and what it means for our lives. Then we have the Bread and the Cup (well, cups). After that, we eat a midday meal together. So it is a fellowship meal and church, all in one.

At the "mid-morning meal" church today we had some friends of the fellowship turn up, who are spreaders of the gospel in the Far East. So it was good to see them and find out how things are going. My wife led church and spoke (for a short time) about the readings for today. She never feels that she has weighty or learned thoughts, but it went well. We all talked and got on like a house on fire.

Otherwise, I seemed to spend the rest of the weekend playing on the keyboard and mouse. I was teaching myself yet another software tongue. I also went for two long walks, about four miles each, on Friday evening and this evening (right before the evening meal). I do this three times a week every week, ever since the 1990s. As you get older, you need to look after your body and mind.

Back to work tomorrow - leave home at seven thirty in the morning, and get to work at nine. Sydney is such a BIG town. It can take a long time to get from one part to another. And this week is "Bush week". The Man himself is coming from Washington (or New York or wherever) to Sydney, along with many other world leaders, to talk. Should be great (*yawn*). They have made this Friday a one-off holiday, so that everybody would keep away and leave the inner town near the harbour to the world leaders and their followers. Truly. We Sydney-dwellers are not welcome in our own town for three days next weekend. They have even built walls to keep us out. My building where I work is right near it. It will be madness!
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
Bishop is from Old English "biscop". Priest from OE "preost", and deacon from OE "diacon" and "deacon" (it was written both ways). By the time the French came, these words had been in English for hundreds of years.

Calling the words "Romish" is not altogether true. They came, first of all, from the tongue of the Eastern Church, being found in Holy Writ itself: episkopos, presbyteros, and diakonos. The church of Rome borrowed the words from the east.
Before the word of the Lord came to these lands, what name did our fathers call a man who worships the gods by slaying beasts in a holy house?
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
Bishop is from Old English "biscop". Priest from OE "preost", and deacon from OE "diacon" and "deacon" (it was written both ways). By the time the French came, these words had been in English for hundreds of years.

Calling the words "Romish" is not altogether true. They came, first of all, from the tongue of the Eastern Church, being found in Holy Writ itself: episkopos, presbyteros, and diakonos. The church of Rome borrowed the words from the east.
Before the word of the Lord came to these lands, what name did our fathers call a man who worships the gods by slaying beasts in a holy house?
Or outdoors, maybe? The forefathers of the Old English and Old Danes would sometimes offer up men and weapons taken in fighting, killing the men as an offering to the gods. Sometimes we find their bodies, even today, in marshes and the like. They also offered other living things, and ate meals of the offered bodies (not the bodies of men - they were not man-eaters - but the flesh of cows and horses and such).

The worship of households was likely led by the head of the house. But the worship of a whole folk might be led by a man whose work it was to tell the laws or to make offerings or to look after the holy hills, woods, openings in the woods, and so on. One OE word for this is "heargward" (harrow-ward - which tells us that the school called Harrow is on a "holy" bit of land). Another is "goding" and "bloteras" and so on. These words say what the man does - a follower of the gods, an offerer, a ward (one who keeps the unholy away and looks after the holy things), a law-teller, a teller of what will be, and so on. There was no one word "priest", and there was no one band of men like the Welsh "druids".

But we don't know that much about the worship of the English before the gospel came, as the monks and priests were foes to the old worship of the gods, and did not say much that we want to know about the old ways. Only the Northmen wrote down much of the old tales of the gods, the old English tales were mostly forgotten, I believe.
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
Only the Northmen wrote down much of the old tales of the gods, the old English tales were mostly forgotten, I believe.
Which saddened Tolkien no end. He wanted to make new old "before the gospel came" tales for England, to make up for the ones that were lost.
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
Only the Northmen wrote down much of the old tales of the gods, the old English tales were mostly forgotten, I believe.
Which saddened Tolkien no end. He wanted to make new old "before the gospel came" tales for England, to make up for the ones that were lost.
Being the head teacher of Old English at Oxford helped a great deal, I think. He knew all the old tales, both the writings of the Old English (like Beowulf) and the tales of the Northmen. He knew how to make up new tongues and names, something that many other book writers don't know half as well as he did. And he knew what made tales great - the fight between the weaknesses of men and their foes who bend those weaknesses to undo the men.

This weekend has already begun in Sydney. We are having a long weekend, as the leaders of the world - or of all lands on the great sea near Sydney - have gathered in this town to talk. The leaders of our land told us all to take a holiday, and keep out of the inner town. The town watch will be looking out for anyone who isn't meant to be there.

No work tomorrow. But then I am speaking in church on Sunday, so I cannot only rest and play all day. I have to think about the gospel reading this Sunday.

Nearly midnight - time for bed.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
I will be away this weekend at a church meet away in the woods. It is up in the hills near where Virginia meets West Virginia. It will be a time for renewing the soul, and seeing old friends.

They have asked me to lead the worship on Sunday. I have no hint what the key speaker will talk about. The meet is called "In the Image* of God". I thought about the Genesis story (God made man and woman in his own likeness) and how our sin has marred that likeness. Yet thanks be to our Lord, that he has put his likeness upon us through our baptism.

Do you all have any more thoughts on this? What other readings might work?

*whatever that Romish word means.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
What other readings might work?
The answers do not fit into this thread so there is a new one in that thing with an outlandish name which starts with "K"
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
renewing baptism
I liked hint and mar, being two words I had to look up. "new" is indeed Old English, but "re-" comes straight from Rome.

I don't know whether the Old English ever borrowed the word "baptisma". But they did often call it christening, by which they meant not the blessing of a child so much as the Christ-ening of someone (child or grown-up). And how the water went onto the body, the word "christening" does not say. It need not mean dripping water onto someone's head. I see no ground why it could not be done by dipping their whole body in water.

As for us in the likeness of (the son of) God:

quote:
From one of the shorter writings of the "beloved follower" (1Jn 3.2):

Beloved, now we are the sons of God, but it does not yet (look to us) what we shall be, but we know that when he shall (show up), we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is".

(the words in () have been put into true old English, to go with our game).
Yes, we shall be like him - and we were made in his likeness.
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
About likenesses -- there is the time when Jesus said "Whose likeness is on this penny?" (Matthew 22:20) I have heard it said that Jesus meant that the penny had the likeness of Caesar, and should be given to him, but that we all have the likeness of God, and should be given to God.

Last weekend is a long time ago now, but I had a good time – I went to stop in the house of a friend who lives near a great hall where they keep all the old writings – wedding lines and land deeds, and things like that. I wanted to look over some of them for work – the work went well, but what I liked the most was being with friends – the one whose house I was in, a new one I had a hot drink with on Friday, and some others who came around -- I cooked the best sweet thing in the world for them, but its name is too outlandish for this thread. (My friend doesn’t think this is the best sweet thing in the world – he likes sweets made from dark brown beans, but the sweet I like best is made from a sour thing! So that’s what they got!)
And I liked Sunday, when I went to a church early in the morning; my friend wasn’t awake yet, but he thinks God is only make-believe anyway. There were not many of us there, but it was great to meet new brothers and sisters, and to break bread with them. The kind of church was not my kind – a good bit more Old English than my own, so to speak (lots of gilding and gliding about! [Biased] ). But the folk were straightforward and easy to talk with; the pastor spoke about Christian brothers and sisters who died in the Black Islands rather than leave the Islanders as war drew near, and about some other Islanders who died only a few years back, brothers in Christ. He said more have come forward to be brothers since then, and said about the blood of the martyrs being the seed of the church. I hope that is true – it is hard to believe sometimes.
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
Oh dear. When will I ever make one whole post without getting something wrong? I shouldn't have called the man a you-know-what, I should have called him a priest or a deacon or a bishop -- but he wasn't a bishop, anyway.
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bush baptist:
Oh dear. When will I ever make one whole post without getting something wrong? I shouldn't have called the man a you-know-what, I should have called him a priest or a deacon or a bishop -- but he wasn't a bishop, anyway.
"Christian" is another word borrowed after OE times. OE writers had a kindred word for a follower of Christ, but their word (Cristen, as in "a Christen man") did not last. Later writers (after 1066) borrowed the Romish word again, this time *without* taking away the Romish ending -ian and putting there the OE ending -en.

I will have to look into "war" later - I should have gone to bed long ago. I cannot tell whether it was written in (late) OE times, or only after 1066. It is mostly thought to be borrowed from the French ("werra", nowadays "guerre"), who borrowed it from the Eastern Franks, who spoke a sister tongue of English. But Skeat says "war" was written in the laws of Cnut, which *might* make it a little before 1066.

Anyway, you could say "fighting" without any worries.
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
So long as 'war' makes it, I don’t mind how narrowly! Maybe it was brought over by those holidaying French we heard about earlier? Maybe they spent their play-time gossiping about how hard things were back home.
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bush baptist:
So long as 'war' makes it, I don’t mind how narrowly! Maybe it was brought over by those holidaying French we heard about earlier? Maybe they spent their play-time gossiping about how hard things were back home.
I don't think the French were holidaying in England.

King Edward (king from 1042-1066, right before Harold in 1066) was most friendly toward the French. He had spent 28 years with the French while the Danes were kings of England (Canute, Harold Harefoot and Hardicanute: 1016-1042). Indeed, in his ways (and speech?) Edward was more French than English, even though his name and his forefathers were all English (his mother was "Emma of Normandy" - so half-French by birth and more than half-French by upbringing?).

One of the grounds on which the English chose Harold to follow Edward was that they didn't like all the French folk hanging about the king. They felt that the king did not listen enough to his English lords, but rather spent way too much time listening to his French friends. In Edward's time a Frenchman was made archbishop of Canterbury (that was Robert of Jumieges in 1051), and some Frenchmen were made lords over English lands (like "Ralph the Timid" in Herefordshire in 1053). There was even some fighting between English townsfolk and the French lords who were Edward's friends - that led to strong feelings between Edward (who sided with his French friends) and Harold's father (Earl of Wessex, who sided with the English townsfolk). So the French were in England as Edward's wise men, lords and priests - it was a working holiday, if you wish.

So from 1042 to 1066 there was time for a few French words to become part of Old English, but not many as the English did not like the French, and still had English lords mostly until 1066.

But only now have I looked up "war" in the Shorter Oxford, which said "late OE werre", and that fits in with an early loan from French (that is, not long before 1066). So there you are: it is alright to talk about the war after all!
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
I am back from our time in the hills. It was an outstanding meet. Lots of old friends, but some new "first timers" to this yearly meet. The key speaker was a woman who makes likenesses of men and women by making marks with charcoal or with hues bright and dull.

She and her husband (who also was at the meet) dwell in the town in the middle of Virginia where is the Big House of Learning (the one Thomas Jefferson built). His craft is making songs with a silver pipe, blowing over the side of the pipe, and teaches his craft at the Big Learning House. They both worship in the same church I led twenty-five years ago.

Also there was an old friend I have not seen for some years, as she works and dwells in the far East. She is helping to bring the Good News to the people in that far land*. She teaches them how to make cloth, how to buy and sell wares, and ways to be good fathers and mothers.

She is here in this land for two months to tell our church folk about what she does there, and asks folk to help her with their gifts through the church.

*The name of this land sounds like the Greek word for "folk".
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
meet
Nothing wrong with "meet". It made me think of the ways that the New World and the Great Southern Land speak. I would have said "meeting" or "gathering" - or even "get-together". I would never say "meet" as a thing-word ("going to a meet"), only as a doing word ("I will meet you tomorrow").

There are many things that are said one way here, and another way where you live (I know this only too well, as I lived on the west sea-shore of the New World for two years while I was growing up - in the town of the Holy Frank, with the Golden Gate Bridge. It made me sharply aware of the saying: "two lands kept apart by the same tongue".)

We say "footpath" and you say "sidewalk". And so and so on. Even on an Old English thread, you can tell the new English-speaking lands apart.

By the way, it seems like you had a great weekend - a most worthwhile time. Here it rained and rained. My wife was building some new cupboards that she had bought from the well-known shop that sells build-it-yourself household goods with names like Grung and Trygg. We ended up driving back to the shop twice to get things that they had left out of the boxes: the shop is more than thirty miles away, so my wife was none too happy when we had to go back, and then back again. I think we have all the bits now.

I spoke in church about the gospel reading for Sunday. I don't know whether I was any good. I had something to say, and said it, and learned a lot along the way. I still don't know whether anyone else did.
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
Yes, your weekend sounded great, Campbellite! (Your hint about the name that sounds like the Greek word for ‘folk’ was lost on me – I don’t speak Greek. Does it sound like an Irish singer?)
As for not knowing if anyone got anything from your talk, MSHB, it is true that sometimes (always?) it’s hard to know how our words will strike the hearers. Last Sunday, a woman I had not seen for a year (she lives a long way away) told me that something I had said then in church had helped her a lot. But what I said then was not even meant for grown-ups – it was a light-hearted tale for the children about a talking dog. While I bet no-one even recalls a word of the last earnestly worked-over grown-ups’ talk I gave!
Two good things happened today -- rain has been falling here (but oh-so-softly) and I was redding up the kitchen when I found some writing my mother-in-law sent me for my birthday – I had not seen it before, and it is worth fifty – er – many shillings .
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bush baptist:
Yes, your weekend sounded great, Campbellite! (Your hint about the name that sounds like the Greek word for ‘folk’ was lost on me – I don’t speak Greek. Does it sound like an Irish singer?)
The word for folk that Campbellite means is a bit like "louse".

As for "sound" ... you can write it when it means healthy, and you can write it when it means a deep, narrow body of water between two lands. But you cannot write it here if it means something you listen to - that word is French, through and through.
quote:
As for not knowing if anyone got anything from your talk, MSHB, it is true that sometimes (always?) it’s hard to know how our words will strike the hearers. Last Sunday, a woman I had not seen for a year (she lives a long way away) told me that something I had said then in church had helped her a lot. But what I said then was not even meant for grown-ups – it was a light-hearted tale for the children about a talking dog. While I bet no-one even recalls a word of the last earnestly worked-over grown-ups’ talk I gave!
That is true. I had to leave early - soon after church - as we were going out. So there was little time for anyone to say anything about it.
quote:
Two good things happened today -- rain has been falling here (but oh-so-softly) and I was redding up the kitchen when I found some writing my mother-in-law sent me for my birthday – I had not seen it before, and it is worth fifty – er – many shillings .
You can even say it in "pounds", as the OE borrowed that word from Rome. Forgive my dumbness, but what is "redding up"?
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
Ah ha! a land that rhymes with 'house'! I will be not all that far from that land later this year, Campbellite.
I should have known the word I got wrong. Grrr.
If I can have the word 'pounds' it was twenty-five pounds I found! That seems so much richer than the same number of shillings in the words we have today.
'Redd up' were words my mother said often when we were children; it means to make straight or clean, but she only said it about the board we ate from (a board with legs, you understand!), after the meal. It's a good word, but I haven't heard it much spoken outside our household -- my mother was a war bride from the New World, so maybe our shipmates from those lands know the word? Or maybe it is a word that women have had more call to speak than men? I think it came first from the north of England, or Scotland.
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
Bother! Too late to cut out 'number' and put in -- oh, I don't know -- 'weight'.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bush baptist:
'Redd up' were words my mother said often when we were children; it means to make straight or clean
[...]
my mother was a war bride from the New World, so maybe our shipmates from those lands know the word?
It was Norse first, then taken to the east of Scotland, to Shetland, and to the North of Ireland. From there to Pittsburgh, which is its home today. Is your mother from near there?
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
The word for folk that Campbellite means is a bit like "louse".
That is right on the mark, MSHB.
quote:
Forgive my dumbness, but what is "redding up"?
Maybe it means putting a red hue upon the walls?

[ 11. September 2007, 15:21: Message edited by: Campbellite ]
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
I see that there were more words written after the ones I answered to. Thank you for making the meaning of "redd up" known. They are new words to me.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
Maybe it means putting a red hue upon the walls?
No. It is kin to "make ready" and perhaps "rid" and maybe even "rede". It means to set things out rightly and cleanly. In today's English it would be "tidy up".
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
I am back from our time in the hills. It was an outstanding meet. Lots of old friends, but some new "first timers" to this yearly meet. The key speaker was a woman who makes likenesses of men and women by making marks with charcoal or with hues bright and dull.
Hues how? Hues in water or fat and put on with a one of those things that's like a stick with hairs stuck to one end, or dry and made into a kind of stick and put on by rubbing it on? Or something else?
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
Ken learnedly spoke of
quote:
... Pittsburgh, which is its home today. Is your mother from near there?
No, she was from a little town in the Rocky Hills, where they took coal from the earth. But her mother grew up in the east, north of the Great Lochs, which is still a good way from the town you name. But don't they redd up still in Scotland and (some of) England? I will go right now and ask on the Scottish thread! [Smile]
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
Where are these stony fells?
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
They run down the west side of the New World – they are called ‘the Rockies’ for short. (You must have heard of them! [Biased] ) I asked the Scots, but so far only one New Worlder has spoken up – he said what you said, about the home of ‘redding up’ in the New World being in Pittsburgh – how clean the folk there must be!
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MouseThief:
Hues how? Hues in water or fat and put on with a one of those things that's like a stick with hairs stuck to one end, or dry and made into a kind of stick and put on by rubbing it on? Or something else?
Both, to tell the truth. We made likenesses of ourselves and of one another by making marks with sticks of charcoal.

Our building has new boxes in every room, so that the elders who live here can let us know if they fall or are sick and need help. The old boxes have been there for over twenty years, and no longer work as well as they once did. The new ones are wireless.
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
We made likenesses of ourselves
What, drawings? You may draw all you like on this thread.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
Well, that's good to know. [Smile]
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
I went to see the skin healer today. He told me I needed to put a healing dough on a mark he had earlier frozen. It will help with a small skin cancer from being too much in the sun. He said the stuff would make my ear red and sore, but would be it killing the cancer.
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
I'm sorry to hear that you had a skin cancer. "Cancer" is frightening word! But I have heard of folks who had cancer -- mostly little ones like the one you had -- who go on to live a long time, and it never rears its head again. I hope you do, too!

My weekend was dull. I went to church, and came home and cleaned up the bookshelves in the living room. I ended up with five sacks of books to take to the bookshop. But when I was done, the shelves looked every bit as full as they did before! I thought I would have lots of room for more books. Now I wonder where all those books once fit. (fitted?) Sadly I only got thirty-two bucks.

In the evening I sat and read a book, whilst listening to "Mozart", whoever he will be.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
This is not the first time with skin cancer for me. I had a bad mark cut off my left wrist some years ago.

I was born with a sickness of the kidney and liver, and had to have the healers cut out the sick ones and put in new ones. The stuff they gave me so that I do not lose the new ones also made me more likely to have the cancer. I can live with that.

The white stuff on my ear now seems to be working. It is not too sore, but is red, as the healer said it would be. It is now about ten days since I started with it.

But enough about me.

It seems that you and I have like bookshelves. I pluck books from my shelves to get rid of, yet they are always full. Many of them are, to my shame, stacked two/too* deep. I would guess that there are over ten thousand in my home. Yet I cannot help myself when at the bookshop. [Help] Books are both bane and blessing, are they not?

*take your pick. It works both ways.
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
Books are both bane and blessing, are they not?
But oh, what a blessing!

(oh, was that a one-liner? wicked mouse! wicked mouse! you all will have to forgive me. or not.)

(by the bye, My wordbook says "line" has two kin-roots, one English and one French. Works for me.)
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
With your love for books, it would shock no one that you are Reader Alexis in your church.

Hmm... does that work-name go back to a time when only a few people could read? It was something that not everyone did or could do.
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
quote:
I cannot help myself when at the bookshop
I have this burden, too, but I am helped a lot by lack of income -- or would be, if there were no second-hand book shops, and those throwing out old books. And it is a burden truly heavy to bear -- I came back from a get-together of kith and kin this week with a sack much heavier than I left with -- not just a book, but sets of books. You know the way it goes -- "But that's far too good to throw out -- I'll give it a home until someone wants it! Your children are bound to want it in two or three years time!"
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
This weekend my wife will be with her friend (the one who is now in her mother's old house), and I will be at church tomorrow for our monthly work day.

Then Sunday, an old friend will be speaking at worship. He once was the preacher at the church in West Virginia where Alexander Campbell spoke. Each Sunday this month looks at some thing about who we are as "Followers" of Christ. (Our real name is in the Latin tongue.) The last Sunday of the month will be our Homecoming.
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
What is Homecoming?
This last weekend I had to speak at church, and (which was harder) write things for others to say. That is, in wasn't hard to write them, but to write them so that folk said them so that the whole flowed.
There have been too many deaths here of late; five burials since winter. Folk here think death comes in threes -- yesterday they were all tallying them up, and asking who would be next. [Frown]
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
Homecoming is a thing over here on the west side of the pond. It refers to a football game (our kind of football) and much more. Folks who went to that school long ago come back and go to the game, which is where the "homecoming" name comes from.

But also there is homecoming queen (and underlings) who are made much of, and after the game is a shindig in which folks sway to sounds (I am trying to think of an English word for this). Sometimes there are folks who make the sounds together, and sometimes there is one fellow (it's most often a man, I don't know why) who works a box that puts out the sounds by itself. Nowadays it's mostly the latter.

Homecoming is made much of, as something of a Fall sort of one of those shindigs more often given in the Spring, where the girls' mums and dads spend much too much on showy (and sometimes showing much too much!) evening wear, and the boys spend a great deal on their own evening wear (which they don't even get to keep but must give back) as well as a meal at some spendy eatery, and a small but dear fistful of dead plants. But folks love to think back on such times and get all happy/weepy, at least until they're about 25 and forget all about it.

It's all rather silly and mostly harmless, unless somebody comes away "with child" as they say, which has been known to happen.
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
Thank you, MT. I had heard of a homecoming queen in a song called Daydream Believer – (I used to think that the words were “Children of a sleepy king, Oh what can it mean…?” If there was a queen, it worked that there should be a king, too.) But I didn’t realise what it was all about, that it all hung on a football game. Who are the two sides? One I guess is the school side, so is the other made up of the old scholars who’ve come back?
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
No, all the other team is, is one of the other schools your school footballs against that year. The game itself down on the field is the same as any other game. The homecoming bit does take up a lot of the halftime, however. The queen is often queenified (the golden band is put on her head) during halftime of the football game, but sometimes this happens at the shindig I spoke of. The "king" is made much less of. Some schools choose a king, many do not.

It's all rather silly, but mostly harmless.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
The homecoming I was speaking of is not the same as what Mousethief said, even though he is right in what he says.

Homecoming at church is a once a year time for family and friends who have left town and now dwell in other towns (and for those who have not been coming to church as they ought. [Paranoid] ) to come back. We will have a pot-luck meal and welcome for those who have been away. It happens every year on the day of our church's beginning (October 1904).
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
Campbellite, I like this thing your church does! Have they been doing it every year since 1904?
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
I have not been there that many years, but we have had Homecoming for the last fifteen years that I have dwelt here.
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
103 years is almost not fully a short time in my church. [Biased]
 
Posted by Mockingbird (# 5818) on :
 
In my youth I learned the lore of those unseen motes which the learned call molecules, and to reckon how they would swerve and whirl on meeting each other. The reckonings were made with the fast-reckoning-tools which the learned call computers, which are driven by the harnessed might of lightning. Some of my reckonings were made for the work of the stargazers, for the stargazers cannot deem the truth of what they see without tables of reckonings drawn by the mote-cunning. At a later tide I helped to try the works of a wandering star, made by the craft of man, which now by man's might sits in the heavens, and by its unseen beams sends speech and likenesses to all who have the wherewithal to catch them.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
A few months ago, the grandson of the evangelist* who started my church died. This evangelist started many, many churches in Virginia. He was what we would not call a bishop**, as we don't speak that word in our church, but that is what he did.

*May we write that word?

**Why we don't is a long story, and even I don't truly understand it. "Bible names for Bible things", as we say.

[cross post with Mockingbird]

[ 20. October 2007, 15:08: Message edited by: Campbellite ]
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
Mockingbird, you will want to look at this post from last July.
 
Posted by Mockingbird (# 5818) on :
 
My thanks, Cambellite. It gave me much mirth.
 
Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
A few months ago, the grandson of the evangelist* who started my church died. This evangelist started many, many churches in Virginia. He was what we would not call a bishop**, as we don't speak that word in our church, but that is what he did.

*May we write that word?

**Why we don't is a long story, and even I don't truly understand it. "Bible names for Bible things", as we say.

[cross post with Mockingbird]
Why not "gospeller" for "evangelist"?
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
Karl, after writing it, I thought "bringer of the good news" might be better.
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
Late, but heartfelt thanks for the further help about 'homecoming', Campbellite.
No church tidings here, since I spent Sunday heading to a new home, to be with my husband (but later we'll head back). I'm about to begin new work, setting right the words that other folk have written, before they put those words out as a book; it's not what I like most to do (as work) but it's something -- it's seen as a black mark against a work-seeker if there's months where it looks like they were doing nothing, so to get work I like better some time, I'm taking this one now.
So maybe church tidings next week.
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
A few months ago, the grandson of the evangelist* who started my church died. This evangelist started many, many churches in Virginia. He was what we would not call a bishop**, as we don't speak that word in our church, but that is what he did.

*May we write that word?

**Why we don't is a long story, and even I don't truly understand it. "Bible names for Bible things", as we say.

[cross post with Mockingbird]
Why not "gospeller" for "evangelist"?
Indeed, why not "overseer" for "bishop"?
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
You miss my meaning, Mousethief. We may write "bishop" on this thread. But my church, does not call the overseer a "bishop". We call the overseer by a romish name, "Regional Minister". Yes, I also find that odd, but there you have it.
 
Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 
Well, we can't always choose how the folks we are in church with do things. Which is no doubt for our betterment, as we learn to give way to others.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
And for something truly odd, our church is well-known for having many sayings, one of which is, "Bible names for Bible things." Like, um, "bishop".

They must not have wanted to say that word since, having been presbyterian earlier, it was thought to be too "Romish".

[ETA: It is good that we can laugh at ourselves. Why not? Everyone else does. [Razz] ]

[ 25. October 2007, 19:43: Message edited by: Campbellite ]
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
Campbellite, I haven't come across your crowd in my homeland. I like your saying, but I don't get what things you have Bible names for, or what non-Bible names you shun - I'm guessing it must be church things, but wouldn't you not have the things you think are non-Bible anyway, like ... I don't know... high altars? So you wouldn't need the name? (And we're talking King's Own Bible, too aren't we?)
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
No, we don't speak of a high altar, but we have the Lord's Table. We speak of elders and deacons. We do not speak of priests or bishops, nevermind that they are truly Bible words. Our early leaders did not want to seem too Romish, and so did not say those names. We have such folk doing the things priests and bishops do, but without the names.

Our church has been in the Southern Land for a long time, but never have we had many folks there. There is a Bible learning place in, I think, "Adelade". Many call themselves "Churches of Christ".
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
Oh, CofC! They're not outlandish at all! [Biased] Some of my best friends.... well, not many, but that's not through having anything against the CofC, just happenstance. But I do know a few - though I have never heard them say "Bible names for Bible things". I'll ask, next time I run into one.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
Some of our early sayings:

"Christ-followers oneness is our North star."*

"We are not the only Christ-followers, but we are Christ-followers only"

"Where the Bible speaks, we speak. Where the Bible speaks not, we speak not."

"We will that this body die, and sink into oneness with the whole church of Christ on earth."


*"Christian unity is our Polar star"
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
This weekend will be another work weekend at our church. Saturday morning the group called to help our church find healthier ways of doing things will meet. Sunday we will remember All Hallows, and in the afternoon the elders meet to think on our sick and shut-ins, and get ready to take bread and cup to them next week. I don't know, but I think it might be my turn to do so this month.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
Well, this is not my month to stand at the Table, but next month. We have about a dozen elderly folks whom the Elders will be visiting on Sunday.

Tonight I meet with the worship folk as we make ready for the time marking the coming birth of Our Lord. I have called the foreteller of weather for our burg, and he has told me the time that the sun sets here on Christmas Eve.
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
Well, this is not my month to stand at the Table, but next month. We have about a dozen elderly folks whom the Elders will be visiting on Sunday.

Tonight I meet with the worship folk as we make ready for the time marking the coming birth of Our Lord. I have called the foreteller of weather for our burg, and he has told me the time that the sun sets here on Christmas Eve.
I knew if I looked in I would see some frightful French words ... ah, "dozen" "visit". I cannot bear to look back through the thread for fear of what I will find.

I get too taken up with this ... it eats my mind whenever I look. I learned Old English when I was fourteen, and being one that must have everything thoroughly right, I cannot abide a French word on a thread that is so near to my Old English heart. It tears my soul!

Also, the time has come for choosing a new leader of the Great Southern Land (well, in less than 3 weeks time), so I am spending most of my time on the web reading up about the latest news about the fight to be leader of the land.

When that is over, I will likely have more time for the Ship. Or for something.

(By the way, BB - we had a great get-together at my church at the end of the ninth month - the week you were nearby but could not come over the water to my town. Well over a hundred folk came, when we would otherwise have no more than about thirty. It was like stepping back in time some thirty years: folk that I had not seen for so long, all - for one weekend - at church again. Some had come from far away, even from the New World. It was amazing. It was as if I had awoken in another time. But now I am back to earth.)
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
Ack!

Thank you, MSHB. I wondered where you had gotten off to. I, too, have a love for Old English, but was never where I could learn from one who was wise in such matters. I did have a time to learn the history of the English tongue years ago, but we only looked at it in bits, rather than in depth. The most I truly learned was bits of our Lord's words for asking of the Father (as Matthew writes it).

Today we are choosing leaders for our kith moot. Sadly, no one is running against the ones already there in my burg. I like the one in the lower house, but not the one in the upper house.

This matters a lot, as there will be a telling of the people living here in 2010, and those chosen today will be setting the marks where we will be choosing leaders for the following ten years.
 
Posted by Alaric the Goth (# 511) on :
 
Ah, 'people' should be 'folk', and you 'deem who is right' or 'speak for', not 'choose'.

I am glad, and full of wonder, that for so many weeks this thread has gone on! Thanks be to all whose words have been on here.
 
Posted by welsh dragon (# 3249) on :
 
We went to the church on Sunday. We have a new priest at the church. He likes songs. Songs with few words and small meaning. We sing the songs many times. Dave does not like the songs. Dave liked those songs when he was very young but he does not like those sort of songs now.

The new priest wants the folk to like him. He wants the folk to like his songs as well. He wants the folk to like making songs with their hands. It is not so good.

We spoke to the woman who makes sounds on the harp (?)*. I do not know if she likes these songs. Ah well, all things shall pass.


*I guess the Anglo Saxons didn't have organs.
 
Posted by Alaric the Goth (# 511) on :
 
We, too, sang songs on Sunday that had not many words. Those words they had I could have well done without. It was deemed right to sing these as the children did not go out to their Sunday school, and so we bore the awful ‘Oi, Oi, gonna’, words of one song, which had a word in it for ‘ so great’ that is like ‘hung us’ but longer and worse… [Disappointed] I sang it not, and kept still when I ‘should not have’.

[ 06. November 2007, 15:03: Message edited by: Alaric the Goth ]
 
Posted by welsh dragon (# 3249) on :
 
My heart goes out to you.
 
Posted by Mockingbird (# 5818) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by welsh dragon:
I guess the Anglo Saxons didn't have organs.
The English folk of old indeed had them.
 
Posted by welsh dragon (# 3249) on :
 
[URL=Most likely not the A-Ss though]web pagehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organ_(music)[/URL]
 
Posted by welsh dragon (# 3249) on :
 
Sorry, I did try to edit that.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
WD, I am afraid that the UBB does not like the parenthasis in the URL. You might try using tinyurl, however.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
Oh my, I forgot where I was. At least two of those words are ones we may not write.

Forgive me.
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
Forgiven! [Smile]

(No, I know it wasn't me you were speaking to. [Biased] By the way, I asked a CofC woman, but she hadn't heard anyone saying those sayings you spoke of, sadly. I love such pithy sayings.)

MSHB, good to hear about the great get-together in the Shire.

We wanted to go to an English-speaking church on Sunday, though we are not at home. We boldly went where we were told church would be, at an inn, even though my husband feared it would be the kind of church he doesn't like much, with those short songs, and lots of clapping, and hell-fire preaching and feeling trapped. But far from that, it wasn't there at all! I rang the preacher whose name was given as head, and he said, oh, we shifted to another inn. So we didn't go at all. We went for a long walk and read a psalm.
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bush baptist:
HB, good to hear about the great get-together in the Shire.
Two folk, who had never been to our church before but live in our town, came to our church that day. They always go to a church many miles away, but (I don't know why) they happened to drop in at ours instead. Maybe they were running late for their church, or didn't feel like a long drive that day, or wanted something new for once. Any way...

They were amazed to find such a big church right there in our little township! We had to laugh - we are so much smaller every other week. This was a "once in thirty years" gathering. I hope someone told them that we are not that big at all. Of all the Sundays to drop in and see what we are like ...

quote:
Originally posted by Alaric the Goth:
... and you 'deem who is right' or 'speak for', not 'choose'.
"Choose" - from Old English ceosan.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
quote:
Originally posted by Alaric the Goth:
... and you 'deem who is right' or 'speak for', not 'choose'.
"Choose" - from Old English ceosan.
I knew that. [Big Grin]

[ETA: The more forward thinking folks now hold most of the seats in the upper house in Richmond. This is good news indeed.]

[ 10. November 2007, 14:43: Message edited by: Campbellite ]
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
[ETA: The more forward thinking folks now hold most of the seats in the upper house in Richmond. This is good news indeed.] [/QB]
I take it that we are talking about *the* Richmond - home town of the southern lands that fought in 1861-1865 (and yes, I do know about the New World of long ago, having been to school two years on the western side of your big land, in the town with the Golden Gate Bridge).

Been to New York, but never got down South, if you know what I mean (and I am talking about Lee and the other Men in Gray who fought them thar Northerners). Would have loved to have seen a few of the fields where they fought. In the Great Southern Land we have never had such big fights - nothing that lasted more than a day or so. So our tales of long ago are mostly boring - who found which waterway first and named it.

It is indeed better to live in boring times, but no one wants to read about them afterwards!
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
Yes, MSHB, *that* Richmond. Our land was named for the unwed English Queen. I live about twenty minutes from a place known, in the tongue of the first folk, as Appomattox. You may have heard of it. [Big Grin]

The names of our land bring to mind many fights from those days. Half of them happened here. Most of the rest were in the neighborhood of the Big Bend River. The first folk's tongue calls it Tennessee.

[ETA: found a bad word. Or two.]

[ 13. November 2007, 03:00: Message edited by: Campbellite ]
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
quote:
the unwed English Queen.
Not only unwed, but a maiden!

and as for
quote:
better to live in boring times, but no one wants to read about them
[Eek!] I'm astounded. No silks, and no swords, maybe, but still lots of good tales -- all they need is a good teller. Or do you think a good tale must have a long, bloody fight?
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bush baptist:
and as for
quote:
better to live in boring times, but no one wants to read about them
[Eek!] I'm astounded. No silks, and no swords, maybe, but still lots of good tales -- all they need is a good teller. Or do you think a good tale must have a long, bloody fight?
This raises so many thoughts that I don't know where to begin.

I do think that someone who grew up in the New World and had seen many of its sights and read much about the times there long ago - the fighting for freedom from England, the fighting between North and South, the fighting between British settlers and the folk who were there first, and so on - someone raised on all this would find our tales rather, um, low key. At least, I did back when I was ten and eleven (or at least, what we were taught in school here at that time was more boring than what I learnt and saw over there - I will say that the lower schools were much better over there, but the middle and high schools were better here).

I am talking about a time in my life that was full of wonderful sights and new things to learn - so much input in two years: we saw sheer cliffs over a thousand feet high, a tree so big that you could drive through it, bears and deer, icicles four feet long, and much much more. We went all over the west side of the land - from the "British" land to the north, all the way down to the lands where they don't speak English. It left a great big mark on my mind and my likes, and I can still feel it now so many years later.

So my likes are shaped by those early times, when I first went overseas and was, you might say, overwhelmed by all I went through. I can understand what you mean, but those tales from our land were not what shaped my likes in those key years.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
The story tellers of the New World say that you cannot understand this land today without knowing about the War of North and South. It is what made us no longer many lands, but one big land.

Before we would speak "the Uncleft Lands are..". After we would say, "the Uncleft Lands is.." It may seem odd to british ears, but it says a truth about us.
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
Before we would speak "the Uncleft Lands are..". After we would say, "the Uncleft Lands is.." It may seem odd to british ears, but it says a truth about us.
Ah, "out of many, one" (although this needs to be spoken in the tongue of old Rome).
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
In the Great Southern Land we have never had such big fights - nothing that lasted more than a day or so.
Our fight of North and South lasted over four years. And more men died in that fight than in all the other fights this Land has ever been in put together, over six hundred thousand on each side!
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
In the Great Southern Land we have never had such big fights - nothing that lasted more than a day or so.
Our fight of North and South lasted over four years. And more men died in that fight than in all the other fights this Land has ever been in put together, over six hundred thousand on each side!
One of the Southern fighting ships came to our land - and they were the last Southern fighters to give up (the ship stopped fighting in the 8th month of 1865, and gave itself up three months later) - as you can see here.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
Several of my forefathers fought in those days. All of them wore grey. My great grandfather's oldest brother was taken by the northern men at a stronghold named Donaldson. He and his men were taken up north and held there for a time. They were let go in a land named for the Father of Waters.

His band of fighters were then sent to a spot called by the first folks "Chickamauga". In the fighting there, he lost his left arm. He did not leave his band of men even then, but fought on until they were all taken at the end of the fighting.
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
Several
French, from Rome.

quote:
a stronghold named Donaldson
have heard of that stronghold, I know I have read about it.

quote:
a land named for the Father of Waters.
I had to look that up - I did not know that "Father of Waters" meant "Ole Man Waterway" - Mark Twain's beloved pathway through the middle of your land. What you learn!

My daughter has lately read "Huckleberry Finn" for high school. I also read that book at high school. We learn about great books from England and from the New World over here, as well as books from our own land. My daughter has read "The Great Gatsby" and - from further north - "Anne of Green Rooftops", or whatever it is called (though that was not for schoolwork, it is a greatly loved book among the young ladies).

Had a working bee at our church yesterday. Went well - much done getting the big house ready for the summer time. Many folk come at summer to stop a while at our church house, as it is right on the strand overlooking a wide water and headlands on the other side. We are not on the big seas, but rather on an inland waterway (only a little way inland - you can see the big sea if you look down the waterway). Many folk from this and other lands come to our house to have a holiday - some who tell others the gospel or who are shepherds of churches. So it was good to get the house ready for this great inflow over the summer.

Our summer begins in about two weeks time, on the first day of the twelfth month. The house is fully booked from now on, I believe.

"It's summer-time, summer-time, sum-sum-summer-time ... sum-mer ti-i-i-ime!"
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
My family have dwelt in the Land of the Big Bend River since 1789 or so. My mother's house is in the far western burg of that land, named for the home of the old Egyptian kings. Her house is but three miles from the Father of Waters.

My father worked in a building where he could look out across that River. He made drawings which showed builders how to put together houses. One of the buildings he drew was the church where I was put under water and made a Christ-follower.

His fore fathers dwelt in the neighborhood of what was first called Nashborough (yes, that is how it was written). It was later called something more Frenchish. One of those fore fathers was the first English speaker to winter over in that land.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
Last Saturday, my wife and I cooked for almost 90 elder folks who dwell in our building of flats. I cooked twelve birds (bigger than chickens, the kind that come from the New World).

This Thursday, we will drive to my wife's parent's house for the Thanksgiving meal. Her seaman nephew will be there. He has not been home for over a year.
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
My family...
... my wife's parent's house
The Old English did not have "families", it seems, nor even "parents". They did have kin and households, and fathers and mothers, though.

This coming weekend is our big weekend for choosing a new lower house and half an upper house for the whole of the Great Southern Land. The leader of the lower house becomes the leader of the whole land, as in England. We have chosen a new leadership team (that is, turned from the Left to the Right, or from the Right to the Left) only 5 times since the World-Wide Fighting of 1939-45. The last time was 1996, and the one before that was 1983.

This Saturday we will be getting someone to work on the network in our home (turning wireless into wired). He has to climb under the house to put the wires in.

Then we will go and make our mark (in truth, we write 1,2,3, and so on against the names of all the folk standing for the lower house on behalf of our neighbourhood).

Then, in the evening, we are going to a friend's house to watch the outcome of everyone's choosing a leadership team. Many folk all over the land will be meeting with friends, eating and drinking, and watching the outcome too. We should know the outcome (who is the leader of the land for the next 3 years) well before midnight.

I foretell that a new leadership team will win ("the Left") - after 11 years of the old leadership team ("the Right"). Anyway, it will be nail-biting time for leaders and would-be leaders, and for many folk watching the boards that show how many folk have chosen which leadership team in each neighbourhood.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
We had a wonderful Thanksgiving here in the New World. Ate too much, as one does. My wife's brother's wife's sister [Paranoid] made a something from eggs, cheese, onions and a green thing she called "broccoli". It was a big hit. The bird was good, as were the green beans and my dish of baked sweet roots. No marshmallows on mine, thank you kindly. There is a bit of white wine in it however.

We had many small children there. The newest baby is only two weeks old. They gave him a name from the Book - Joshua.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
Oh, our choosing, which seems to take forever, begins the eighth day of the new year. [Eek!] One runner for the leadership is from the same home land as the last leader before the one now in the White House. But unlike the last leader, he belongs to the red team.

The last leader's wife is front runner in the blue team, but some of the others are catching up. We won't be done with this until almost this time next year. [Waterworks]
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
The last leader's wife is front runner in the blue team, but some of the others are catching up. We won't be done with this until almost this time next year. [Waterworks]
Believe you me, we get a lot of news about the leadership fights in your land. We know about the Clintons (man and wife), and Bush, and Gore that was (he came out here not long ago to tell us that the world is getting hotter). And I also lived on the western side of your land long ago, when your leader in the early 1960s was shot. I watched the 1964 choosing of leaders, when Goldwater lost.

I will be on edge until tomorrow night, when the outcome of the "day of choosing" will be known. And then I will be glad or sad. I can't help it. Sigh. I shall drown myself in drink ... well, a glass.

I find it odd that you call Clinton's team "blue" and Bush's team "red". Seems all wrong to me. Isn't red the Left and blue the Right? That is what we think here. How did the two teams get to be called those names ("red" and "blue") in your land?
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
Yeah, the red/blue thing does seem backwards, doesn't it?

During the choosing years ago, the broadcasters showed the choices of each land in red or blue, showing who had won there. Each time of choosing they changed the red and blue teams.

In 2000, "red state" and "blue state" were written in books as shorthand for the two teams, and still are so called. The names stuck.
 
Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
Aye - in the Old World, red is the colour of bands that put folk first, blue of gangs that hold gold highest.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
In the last Year-hundred, it was that way here also. Those who leaned to the Left were nicknamed "Pinko".

I like to think that those of us who are foreward thinkers are the true blue folks of this land as against the backward thinkers who have put us in the red, wealth-wise.
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
Well, are you happy this morning, MSHB? The Great Choosing is all over, and Rudd has beaten the one with the Norman name.
I had some light-heartedness looking at those names to see the meaning of them -- Rudd is like "one who steers the ship"; the name of the ousted leader mostly means "high watcher", but it can also mean, "the one who all the sheep run after".
Thanks for the tale of the Red and the Other Hue, Campbellite. I watched, darkly, as one McKew, meant to be on what we think is the Red side (ha! ha! -- not much red, if truth be told) made her big speech -- all around her was a sea of Not Red. These hues (chosen with great care by minders) do show out something of the inner minds of the racers.
But don't you have a race in your land, Campbellite, to see who gets to race in the Great Choosing, later? That's not settled yet, is it, on either side? Or did it happen while my back was turned?

[ 25. November 2007, 00:03: Message edited by: bush baptist ]
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
The first of the races come early in the first month of the year. There are, I think, about four early races before Great Tuesday in mid second month when about half of our lands will choose. The Big election for the White House is not until next almost this time next year.

I do not yet know who I want to win. All I can say for now it that it will not be the team now in the White House. I can live with the one-time first lady, but she is not my first choice.
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
Why are there four early races? I can understand an early race for each side, to choose their front-runner, but why four? Or is it that every race must be between only two runners, so they have knock-out races, to bring the number of likelies down to two? I think it's wild that they have these early races in the open, and sometimes with everyone able to have say -- in our land, we have them in a closed room, and only those sworn to be on the side choosing a front-runner get to say who they think it should be. Lots of the work is done by whispering and gossip beforehand, not by big, bought showmanship. (That comes later, in the Great Choosing.)
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bush baptist:
Well, are you happy this morning, MSHB?
I did not straight away choose Team Red (Rudd?) or Team Blue, if the truth be told. We had many "little teams" to choose from in the lower house - I had to write from 1 to 8 against their names. Neither my "1" nor my "2" got in. But I did not think they would. In the upper house I only put "1" on the big long sheet ... and that team did not get a seat. But I am not down about it.

I am aware that the choosing of leaders is something that folk have strong feelings about (me too), but I think it is of greater weight that we get along with each other; whatever team we like the most is of less weight. I know and like many folk who choose teams that I would never ever choose. I know believers who like Team Blue, Team Red, Team Green (or Brown!), one of the churchy Teams, and Team "One Land" (which was begun by the red-head from Queensland who does not like folk from overseas unless they are white). It takes all kinds. "Love one another" does not mean "Love one another if they like the same leadership team as you". It is cheap love if you only like those who are the same as you.

For myself, I am not sad to see the old leader go. I do not believe that he was as good for the land as he (and all his team) said he was. I think he has hidden some breaches of the law (like the Wheat Board) and told untruth to mislead us (the Middle East weapons, the children overboard, the Wheat Board thing), and I think he has forgotten the gospel saying "I was a stranger and you welcomed me". Locking up children from overseas for years was a wicked thing to do - fathers who do that to their own children get locked up: it is called "child harm". Much wrong was done to the "little folk" - those who could not speak up. I think, in the end, the might and main of leadership went to his head (like winning the upper house in 2004). That is why he was thrown out on Saturday. He should have left last year, while he was ahead. He didn't and I am not sad that he lost. I think more will come out in the next few months that the old leaders did not want us to know. I wonder if Rudd will set the law on those who knew about the Wheat Board misdoings ...

I will watch Rudd to see how he turns out. To tell the truth, Rudd said "I" and "my" too many times for my liking in the last few weeks - but what he does now will be of more weight with me than what he said back then. We shall see. I don't hate him - I don't have strong feelings about him. Anyway, I like it that he goes to church and he loves his wife and children. But I like the other leader in his team, the woman with red hair - I think folk will grow to like her a lot as they see more of her. I think she wants other folk to get along together, rather than fight - something like Hawke from long ago. I think she is good at being in the middle, getting both sides to work together. I look forward to seeing how she turns out - more so than Rudd, in some ways.

They say a week is a long time in the world of leadership. Hasn't the last week made a big mark on the land! It is hard to believe that it has all happened.
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
I like the way you think, MSHB, and agree with you on lots of things you say (there's a thread saying much of what folk think, elsewhere, in the after-death-cleaning-hall).
I'm sorry the little gang above the line (whoever they were - were they Green?) didn't get in. I always go below the line; that way, you know who the after-choice will go to.
Now about words -- I thought that That Other Hue was not Old English. That we could say Red and Green and Brown, but not the sky-hue. That's what the on-line word-book says, anyway.
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bush baptist:
Now about words -- I thought that That Other Hue was not Old English. That we could say Red and Green and Brown, but not the sky-hue. That's what the on-line word-book says, anyway.
Sprung. "Oh bother", as they say among the lords and ladies. The Old English had a word that was nearly the same as the French word for sky-hue, but it isn't the forefather of our sky-hue word nowadays. If only Harold had won at Hastings, we would not have had to step carefully over all the French words in our tongue today. The wrong was done by the Northmen who spoke French - mucked up our tongue, they did.

I think I had better keep away from the hues and call them: Team Left and Team Right (and Team Tree? Not Team Bush!). Though I do like our Sydney Morning news headline yesterday: "Rudd and Rudderless". We could call them Team Rudd and Team Rudderless. But the New Worlders might find it too hard to follow, if it isn't already.

By the way, I liked "race" - had to look it up. Well chosen in this time of racing to be the leader. "Front" (as in "front-runner") is French from Rome, though, is it not?

Looking back, I see that I wrote "stranger" too. Oh bother some more! "I was new here and you welcomed me..." - that would be a good way of putting it.

Must look up that other thread about the aftermath of the leadership race.

By the way, I felt sorry for the woman in Boothby who lost. I saw her on the box on Saturday night. She looked like she was about to weep, and the man running the show in Sydney was asking her things like "Why did you lose when everyone else nearby won? What was wrong with you?" The woman was so down, it was wrong to do that to her while everyone was watching. I felt sorry for her. I believe she worked as hard as she could, like everyone else. Even if Team Left should have chosen someone else to run, she did what *she* could. But I don't know how folk over there in the Land of the Crows think about it. I know she did not go as well as others did. Was she given a hard time by the news-writers while the race was going on? (see? I like that word "race".)
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
Oh dear -- well, first runner?
You have a good heart, to be sorry for the woman from Boothby. I think she took some of the wrath which rose from the way she was chosen to be a runner -- for her looks, and her kin, not for her deep thinking or hard work. Of course, the wrath should have fallen rather on those who chose her, but that's the way of the world, isn't it?
Wasn't that a tale worth hearing that Campbellite told, about how the hues became yoked to the teams so newly in his land? I wonder if they'll stick? As was said, it seems as if the hues are the wrong way about.

[ 27. November 2007, 11:12: Message edited by: bush baptist ]
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bush baptist:
You have a good heart, to be sorry for the woman from Boothby. I think she took some of the wrath which rose from the way she was chosen to be a runner -- for her looks, and her kin, not for her deep thinking or hard work. Of course, the wrath should have fallen rather on those who chose her, but that's the way of the world, isn't it?
Soft-hearted? Indeed I am. I thought she was being put down wrongly. Other Left runners lost their races too - some of them in the West had been sitting in the lower house as well, and no one was asking them such hard-hearted things with the whole world watching like that.
quote:
Wasn't that a tale worth hearing that Campbellite told, about how the hues became yoked to the teams so newly in his land? I wonder if they'll stick? As was said, it seems as if the hues are the wrong way about.
Odd. So odd. It makes it hard for folk in other lands to follow: "Bush is a Red?" It's wronger than a wrong thing that isn't right.

Speaking of hues, yes - I might have chosen a small team of leafy hue. Our seat is always won by Team Right, but in the swing this time they lost half their lead. I never thought Team Left would win our seat - THAT would have been a true landslide.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
Yeah but...

Our team right is over muchly right, and our team left isn't all that left. [Waterworks]

The four early races are in four lands, each wants to be the first to choose who will be the team leader for the Big Choosing. For as far back as I can think, it has always been the land called "Iowa", followed by New Hampshire. They are small lands in the counting of folks, and like to have their say in the team choosing before the others have made the leader choice already sure.

In the past, it has happened that a Dark Horse has come forth and gotten the nod who might not have been chosen by the bigger lands. I think Polk in 1844 was one such leader who ended up in the White House. I am sure there have been others.

Big Tuesday in the second month will have about half of the lands casting their lots for team leaders. If one who hopes to be Leader can get a head start in the first four, it could help them on Big Tuesday.
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
Thanks, Campbellite -- that helps me understand.

And here comes the weekend! I am so much hoping that I can get out and do things this weekend – well, I did heaps last weekend, but nothing much in the way of song or skilled craftsmanship, two lights of my life. This weekend, there is singing tonight (if my husband is not too tired; he works hard, and they make him work on the weekend, too) and singing again Sunday afternoon – a man who plays a stringed keyboard, who is known all over the world, is coming, with a crossover song-team – sounds great! And two skilled craftsmanship shows, one with pithy sayings from the far east, written in the fair handwriting of the east, and one which shows houses and fastnesses (I know I could say castle – late Old English – but isn’t fastnesses a lovely word?) of this town as if they were old bones dug up – they both sound good to me! And heaps more. Anyone else with something good in mind?
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bush baptist:
a crossover song-team
I don't know (or cannot tell) what a "crossover song-team" is, unless they are men wearing women's clothes (or the other way about) while they sing.

After the overthrow of Team Right last weekend and the Ruddening of the Great South Land, this weekend should be much less busy. No more worrying about who will win. Now we only worry about loans in the New World going bad, making loans here harder to get, and driving business down everywhere in the land. We don't want a world-wide meltdown as soon as Team Left gets in. Give them a break.

It is the beginning of the Four Weeks before Christmas, the Time of Coming, when we get ready for the coming of the Lord. I will be speaking in church on one of the 4 Sundays, so I will have to begin getting myself ready for that.
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
Well, by cross-over, I meant that they blend one kind of singing (an older, more scholarly kind) with another kind (more lively? more rock?) -- they cross over from one kind to another. It's not all singing, but I don't know how to say the lovely din made by hitting keys or strings, or blowing into reeds.

Now, about words. Did everyone see that they've been talking about words on the Welsh thread? Old Norse and all. And it was said a bit further up this thread that,
quote:
The Old English had a word that was nearly the same as the French word for sky-hue, but it isn't the forefather of our sky-hue word nowadays.
Is there any word nowadays which comes from that old word?
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bush baptist:
Now, about words. Did everyone see that they've been talking about words on the Welsh thread? Old Norse and all. And it was said a bit further up this thread that,
quote:
The Old English had a word that was nearly the same as the French word for sky-hue, but it isn't the forefather of our sky-hue word nowadays.
Is there any word nowadays which comes from that old word?
OE blaw was sister to the Eastern Frankish blew/blaw, from whence the French took their bleu or blue. These words were also sisters (in a far-off way) to the Romish flavus, which meant yellow.

The Shorter Oxford says that the Old Danish sister-word bla gave us "blae", meaning "blackish-sky-hue". But this word is only spoken in the North and in Scotland. It is not part of the main English tongue.

If we had kept the Old English word, we would say it *blow. As you can see, that would be the same as the doing-word "blow", as in breathe strongly. No wonder we borrowed the French word. We don't want too many words the same - it gets too hard to understand.

But no, I haven't seen the Welsh thread. What with the leadership race in our land, and the need to do other things, I cannot keep up with all the threads on the Ship that I might like. The thread for folk in the Great South Land (and in the Land of the Long White Cloud) is another that I cannot keep up with - so many folk writing so much, it would be full-time work being a part of it.

I like the OE thread as it is small - only a few folk (but all good ones! :-) ) - and I like the work of writing only in words from Old English and Old Danish. I can keep up with this thread - it doesn't go too quickly for me.

By the way, someone wrote a good bit about the new show Beowulf. The writer had read Beowulf in Old English, and knew the tale in depth.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
If we had kept the Old English word, we would say it *blow. As you can see, that would be the same as the doing-word "blow", as in breathe strongly. No wonder we borrowed the French word. We don't want too many words the same - it gets too hard to understand.
But... The word for the sky-hue is to the ear the same as the past of "blow" is it not? [Paranoid]

Saturday I will be merry with my wife's kin as we think back on the day that her father took her mother as his wife, sixty years ago.
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
But... The word for the sky-hue is to the ear the same as the past of "blow" is it not? [Paranoid]
There are, to tell the truth, three words "blow":

(1) to breathe hard ( from OE blawan)
(2) a stroke ("I gave him a blow on the chin") (from OE *bleowan? not found written until ME)
(3) to bloom (from OE blowan)

So a fourth (sky-hue, from blaw) would be a bit much.

Well, today we mowed the grass before and behind our house. The bad thing is, we will have to mow it again next year.

C, may you all have much mirth for your kin's 60 years of being hitched. Next year is our 25th, so 60 looks a long way off to me. That is nearly nine seven-year itches!
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
We had a good time yesterday. My wife's aunt (her mother's sister) came from her home five hours driving time away. We had a cake which was made to look like the one they had sixty years ago.

Our son, Will, and all but one of the other grandchildren were there. (The second oldest, after our son, is a sailor and could not make it there.) Will kept the elder aunts merry with tales of his work. We took many "light-writings" (to put into English what the romish word means).

My wife and I will mark our 29th year together on the 16th of this month. (Writing that makes it seem like such a long time!)
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
Another weekend coming up. My wife and I are not on call, so we will likely be shopping for Christmas. Sunday afternoon I will be one of three elders taking bread and wine to our shut-ins as this is my month to stand at the Table. We do this every second Sunday of the month.

How are the rest of you making ready during this time of the Coming?
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
How are the rest of you making ready during this time of the Coming?
Falling in a heap seems like a good thought this weekend, and also a good way to get ready for Christmas!

We have Christmas songs at church on the four Sundays before Christmas, and we follow the church readings for this time of year - like the fore-tellings of Christ's coming. Other than that, our household goes shopping too and buy gifts for one another. We also put up a Christmas tree at home and lay gifts underneath. My daughters like that - they put the tree up this year.

The churches here will also sing Christmas songs to the folk in our little town on the weekend before Christmas - many households come with their children to take part in that, as they like the old-time Christmas songs.

We have also had one big Christmas get-together at work for all the high and mighty folk. We will have another get-together this week - this time only for the lowly workers - where we will share a midday meal (50 bucks a head).

So ... shopping, get-togethers, gifts, trees, Christmas songs ... and the weather warms up, and the school year ends. Some folk like to wear red hoods with white trimmings, or else deer horns on their heads (like this and this ). Here Christmas means summer and long school holidays. No ice, no snow ... but great big fires on all sides of Sydney are not unknown (other than in the east, which is the sea, and is not known to burn).
 
Posted by Mockingbird (# 5818) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by welsh dragon:
Most likely not the A-Ss though
Both Wulfstan Cantor (Life of St. Swithun, late 10th century) and Byrhtferth of Ramsey (Life of St. Oswald, early 11th century) mention organs in terms that indicate that they were referring not to metaphorical organs, but musical instruments in actual use.
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingbird:
quote:
Originally posted by welsh dragon:
Most likely not the A-Ss though
Both Wulfstan Cantor (Life of St. Swithun, late 10th century) and Byrhtferth of Ramsey (Life of St. Oswald, early 11th century) mention organs in terms that indicate that they were referring not to metaphorical organs, but musical instruments in actual use.
Greetings Mockingbird

You may not be aware of the laws of this thread. We only write words that come from Old English or from the Northmen who settled in England before King Harold was slain. So no borrowed French words - nor loan words from Rome - unless they were written in English works before 1066.

That means words like "century", "mention", "terms", "indicate" - and so forth - are all unlawful here. See the beginning of this thread if you wish to understand more.

And back to this thread ... My weekend? Mostly low key. A little watching of the box, playing with software, looking here and there on the web, and so forth. It has been raining much of the day, so I had to keep indoors anyway. The backyard looks all green though, from all the rain and its being early summer. Well, one more week of work ... then holidays.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
And what is this "metaphorical" of which you speak? [Biased]

Yesterday we made merry with the elder folks who live in our building. We each brought food to share, and many brought gifts to share. I brought a bag of dried, sweet-smelling plants. In turn I got a baked ring of dark brown hue, made of a now well-known New World bean the first folks called "chocolatl".

But my Healer does not want me to eat too much of such things. [Frown] So I took it to church this morning to share with the others as we drank our hot, brown drink (also made from New World beans, as it happens). [Razz]

Tonight, my wife is making a meal for us to think back on our 29 years together this day. So many years, and we haven't killed each other yet. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Mockingbird (# 5818) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by MSHB:
You may not be aware of the laws of this thread. We only write words that come from Old English or from the Northmen who settled in England before King Harold was slain. So no borrowed French words - nor loan words from Rome - unless they were written in English works before 1066.
I wot well the laws of this thread. I was simply too wroth over a witless word to follow them.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
This week leading up to the birth of our Lord is full of business. Monday I chaired the church board meeting. Tonight I had a good time with our church bowling* team. We won all three games and overall pin count.

Wednesday I stand at Table for a "Sky-hue Christmas" worship for the folk who dwell in our building. Thursday is when our singers prepare songs for Sunday, and Friday I again stand at Table for the "Longest Night" worship at our church (Same as the one on Wednesday).

"Longest Night" is a time for folk who have suffered the loss of someone close, or loss of any other sort. Christmas is not always a merry time for some folk. This worship time marks this truth, and understands these feelings.

*Is that word allowed?
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
Oh my, what a week this has been! Our church singers (and bell ringers) had three hours work on Thursday night to get ready for this morning.
Then Friday, as I was making ready for a "Longest Night" worship, my wife found one of the elder neighbors in our building lying dead in her room. (The neighbor's room, not my wife's room, lest anyone not understand.) We called 911, who called the lawmen, who called the undertaker. The dead woman's kin came in droves! There was much weeping and grief.

Then Saturday, the singers and bell ringers (who are mostly the same folks) met again to make ready. The week then caught up with me and I crashed that afternoon.

This morning at church we had a wonderful worship with much singing and happiness for the birth of our Lord.
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
Campbellite said:
quote:
Oh my, what a week this has been!
Amen, I say. I have had an outlandish Christmas, running from one home to another, seeing an old friend wed, seeing my brother and sisters and cousins (not all of them), and at last coming back to my husband on Christmas Eve -- we didn't get to church, at least not inside a church, but a good man on this ship sent me a Christmas word, as he was going to give it in his church, for which I was thankful.

So much goodness, all around!

(By the way, I think Campbellite that you can't say the word you used a while back, but you could say "skittles" instead -- I think.)
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
Thanks BB, I do know that "bowl" the thing for holding food, is lawful. But I don't know about "bowl" the game.

I will be speaking in church this Sunday. Our Speaker is not home this week. He goes to see family who do not live nearby. He has two grandchildren who live in Richmond (the one in "Virginia") and will be seeing them.

I think I will talk about Joseph, the step-father of our Lord. I am calling it, "You may think I'm a Dreamer". (Yes, I listened to too much of the Beatles in my day. I doubt that many will catch the hint. [Razz] )
 
Posted by MSHB (# 9228) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bush baptist:
... cousins ...
(By the way, I think Campbellite that you can't say the word you used a while back, but you could say "skittles" instead -- I think.)
"Skittles" - yea.
"Cousins" - nay.
"used" - nay.

I did get to church on Christmas Day - I was one of the singers singing "O Come O Come..." at the beginning, which is not in truth a Christmas Song, but a "before Christmas" Song.

This weekend is the same as all the others: do nothing on Saturday, then go to church on Sunday. Today's highlight was going for a four-mile walk at sundown. Good for the health. Tomorrow in church we will be "sharing" - everyone talking about what has happened in their life this year, such as what they have learned about God.

C. You write sometimes about "your building". Do you live in a high-rise building with many floors inside it? I live in a "stand-alone" house with only my wife and daughters - and only one floor.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
Yes, we live and work in a building of flats, housing elderly folks. When they need help, we are there to do what needs to be done. That most often means calling 911, and waiting for them to get there.

There are three pull-ropes* in each room. By pulling them, they make the software call us on the little box we wear.

*Is "cord" lawful?
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
MSHB -- I am writhing in shame at the wrong words I had. Thank you for setting me straight! [Smile]

I like "O come, o come" a lot. I didn't get to any Christmas singing this year, unless you count the piped kind (and I bet none of you do!).

Campbellite -- with your words in church today, about "You may say I'm a dreamer" you said you wondered if many would get the hint. So what's the hint? Did you mean, "there's no heaven... above us only sky"? or "all the people living for today"? And did they get it? Tell, tell!
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
I read the gospel for today, from the writing of Matthew 2:13 and following. I told the story as if I were Joseph. The Book tells us that Joseph was met by a heavenly being at least three times in a dream. Thus I called him a "dreamer". [Big Grin]

I spoke of how no matter how old we may be (Joseph was said to be 90 years old), we must look after the children that are given to our care. We cannot think that they are not worth our time. Like Joseph taught the child Jesus, we must teach the children the things that we were taught for them to grow up to be faithful followers of Christ.

I think it went well.
 
Posted by bush baptist (# 12306) on :
 
Joseph was said to be ninety? I didn't know that! (But who said it? [Paranoid] )
quote:
we must look after the children that are given to our care
Yes, amen. And for those of us who have no children in our care right now, I think this means that we have to give what we can to other children as we go by, so to speak. Always keeping in mind that we are outsiders to their lives, that we should never push anything on them.
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
The best thing we in the church can give the children is time, and to spend time with them, to let them know that they can trust us, and that we care. We must be what the Greeks called "mentors".

If we fail to teach them the things of God, how will they ever learn?
 
Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
Has everyone jumped Ship? Here I am a week later, and this is a two-times post. [Biased]

This weekend my wife and I hope to do some house cleaning. We have far too many "things" taking up room, and need to get rid of what is unneeded.
 


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