quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
Does the church you go to keep a variety of Marian feats.

---

No. Lutheran churches tend to stay away from them.

On our calendar we have:
25 March: Annunciation of our Lord
Visitation somewhere in late May (31st?--don't have hymnal handy)
15 August: Mary, Mother of our Lord

We celebrate other dates as:
1 Jan: The Holy Name
2 Feb: Presentation of our Lord

My own church is not well-known for celebrating anything that falls on a weekday. If 15 August were to fall on a Sunday, we would celebrate it, otherwise not. Same with 1 January or 2 February. The others fall within privileged seasons and cannot replace a Sunday within, say, Lent or Easter.
 

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Posted by chiltern_hundred (# 13659) on :
 
Some of these feasts seem to be local in nature (Rome, Guadeloupe, Copacobana (!)), so most of us are unlikely to have experienced them. I'm an Anglican, so have experienced only the ones that Anglicans tend to celebrate - Annunciation, Assumption, Our Lady's birthday, Visitation.

Westminster Cathedral in London does a procession through the streets for Our Lady of Ransom on a date I forget. There must be a feast day for the Shrine of Our Lady at Walsingham, but I don't know when it is, and there is an annual service for Our Lady of Pew in Westminster Abbey.
 

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Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :
 
Like Martin L's, my parish tends not to do much in the way of weekday feasts. I attend this church for most Marian feasts. In the Anglican Church of Canada, these are:

*the Conception of the BVM (Dec 8)
*the Presentation of Christ and Purification of the BVM (Feb 2)
*the Annunciation (Mar 25)
*the Visitation (May 31 [BAS] or Jul 2 [BCP])
*the Falling Asleep of the BVM (Aug 15)
*the Nativity of the BVM (Sep 8)
 

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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
Feasts of the Theotokos in the O. Church, starting at the beginning of the year (i.e. September 1). Not including observances of famous icons relating to same.

Nativity of the Theotokos, Sept 8 (one of the 12)
Protection of the M.H.T., Oct 1
Synaxis of the MHT, Dec 26
Meeting of our Lord in the Temple, Feb 2 (one of the 12, considered a Marian feast and not a dominical one)
Annunciation, Mar 25 (one of the 12)
Robe of the Theotokos, July 2
Dormition, Aug 15 (one of the 12)

I probably missed some -- I was just looking through the wall calendar for 2008.

For all there are special appointed hymns. The Annunciation, which almost always occurs in Lent or Holy Week, almost always lightens the fast. This year we got to eat fish! Yay!
 

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Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by chiltern_hundred:

Westminster Cathedral in London does a procession through the streets for Our Lady of Ransom on a date I forget.

---

Would it be September 24th? That's the feast of Our Lady of Ransom , also known as Our Lady of Mercy. That's always a big festival with a solemn mass and a traditional seven Saturday novena in preparation for the feast. The side altar of our lady gets decked out like This.
Attending a parish with Mary as the patron,run be a religious order counting her as their foundress has it's perks.
The apparition of Our Lady of Lourdes is the patron of my parish, so that's usually observed with a solemn mass, no matter what day it falls on. There's a local feast of Our Lady of the Miraculous Medal also that gets celebrated in my diocese also.
Course, I'm RC, so I get all the little feasts too.
 

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Posted by Cyprian (# 5638) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:
I probably missed some -- I was just looking through the wall calendar for 2008.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
I was looking at a website which has loads of Feasts of Mary listed.

If you click here you'll see what I mean.

Does the church you go to keep a variety of Marian feats. Which ones? Are they kept with any special events / customs?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
I was looking at a website which has loads of Feasts of Mary listed.

If you click here you'll see what I mean.

Does the church you go to keep a variety of Marian feats. Which ones? Are they kept with any special events / customs?

---

We have all those feasts, plus every Saturday is a Mary Day and the month of May and October. My church is also big on Medjegore so we often have extra days of praise, worship and all things marian during summer months. I don't know though - I lead the music for them but I try not to get too involved, usually coach loads of old women!


Max.

---

I bet the Lourdes Hymn gets short shrift
 

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Posted by Max. (# 5846) on :
 
Oh gawd, it's not as bad as my London Church - It's requested each week!

Thanking Blessed Mary by Paddy Kelly is something that I covered at the last event.

The Marian Anthem is another favourite.

I really do wish Tim Hughes and Matt Redman would write some Marian stuff, Catholics are so good at writing cheesy music, I would love some Marian stuff which isn't old or cheesy.

Oh and "As I kneel before you" is banned. One of the verses is heretical, can you work out which one it is?


Max.

[ 01. September 2008, 23:58: Message edited by: Max. ]
 

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Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :
 
What! Nothing for February 29? Seems they are heretically denying our Lady's claim to EVERY day of the year...
 

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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cyprian:
Among my favourites is the Presentation of the Mother of God in the Temple, (21st November). It is of special significance to Benedictines but also means much to me as a Christian, aside from any particular affiliation.

---

Eek! And that's one of the 12, too!
 

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Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
What! Nothing for February 29? Seems they are heretically denying our Lady's claim to EVERY day of the year...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by chiltern_hundred:

Westminster Cathedral in London does a procession through the streets for Our Lady of Ransom on a date I forget. There must be a feast day for the Shrine of Our Lady at Walsingham, but I don't know when it is, and there is an annual service for Our Lady of Pew in Westminster Abbey.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:
Oh gawd, it's not as bad as my London Church - It's requested each week!

Thanking Blessed Mary by Paddy Kelly is something that I covered at the last event.

The Marian Anthem is another favourite.

I really do wish Tim Hughes and Matt Redman would write some Marian stuff, Catholics are so good at writing cheesy music, I would love some Marian stuff which isn't old or cheesy.

Oh and "As I kneel before you" is banned. One of the verses is heretical, can you work out which one it is?


Max.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
BTW every Saturday used to be a feast of Our Lady in English Missal days.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PD:
Confusingly, the diocesan calendar used to give three possible dates for Our Lady of Walsingham - 24 September, 10 December, or "the last Saturday in May."

PD

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PD:
Confusingly, the diocesan calendar used to give three possible dates for Our Lady of Walsingham - 24 September, 10 December, or "the last Saturday in May."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:

quote:

---

Originally posted by PD:
Confusingly, the diocesan calendar used to give three possible dates for Our Lady of Walsingham - 24 September, 10 December, or "the last Saturday in May."

PD

---

Goodness! The official RC feast-day, the feast of the Holy House and the Saturday before the National Pilgrimage. Is one permitted all three, or would that just be greedy? (not that there isn't enough Pilgrim Hymn to go round, of course...)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:

Oh and "As I kneel before you" is banned. One of the verses is heretical, can you work out which one it is?

---

The third one. Our Lady doesn't smile. She has a serene gaze.

Thurible
 

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
As I kneel before you,
And I see your smiling face,
Ev'ry thought, ev'ry word
Is lost in your embrace.

Surely it is not heretical to believe that Jesus, let alone our Lady smiled.
 

---

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
I was joking, leo. Personally, I don't see anything heretical in the hymn at all. The second verse is a bit OTT but only in a Bernard of Clairvaux way.

Thurible
 

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
Sorry - I lose my sense of humour on these boards because the orthodox and the evangelicals come along and tell me i am destined for hell otherwise.

So I hope Max comes along and says why it is 'heretical'
 

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
Thanks. It's interesting to hear how other people observe these feasts. What about the 'after mass' - do you have any distinctive meal or celebration associated with a particular feast in your church? I know a friend's church where they have wine and cheese after the feast of Our Lady's Visitation.
 

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Posted by Sarum Sleuth (# 162) on :
 
We shall be observing the Nativity of the BVM at St Mary's Primrose Hill at 8pm on Monday, 8 September. Procession and High Mass following the Book of Common Prayer with English ceremonial. Wine and nibbles afterwards and everyone welcome.

SS
 

---

Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
Thanks. It's interesting to hear how other people observe these feasts. What about the 'after mass' - do you have any distinctive meal or celebration associated with a particular feast in your church? I know a friend's church where they have wine and cheese after the feast of Our Lady's Visitation.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:
Oh gawd, it's not as bad as my London Church - It's requested each week!

Thanking Blessed Mary by Paddy Kelly is something that I covered at the last event.

The Marian Anthem is another favourite.

I really do wish Tim Hughes and Matt Redman would write some Marian stuff, Catholics are so good at writing cheesy music, I would love some Marian stuff which isn't old or cheesy.

Oh and "As I kneel before you" is banned. One of the verses is heretical, can you work out which one it is?


Max.

---

Do tell! I have never heard if the song but would love some ammunition to confirm my prejudices!

---

quote:

---

All I have I give you,
Every dream and wish are yours,
Mother of Christ,
Mother of mine, present them to my Lord.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:
Oh gawd, it's not as bad as my London Church - It's requested each week!

Thanking Blessed Mary by Paddy Kelly is something that I covered at the last event.

The Marian Anthem is another favourite.

I really do wish Tim Hughes and Matt Redman would write some Marian stuff, Catholics are so good at writing cheesy music, I would love some Marian stuff which isn't old or cheesy.

Oh and "As I kneel before you" is banned. One of the verses is heretical, can you work out which one it is?


Max.

---

Do tell! I have never heard if the song but would love some ammunition to confirm my prejudices!

---

This is the verse in question:

quote:

---

All I have I give you,
Every dream and wish are yours,
Mother of Christ,
Mother of mine, present them to my Lord.

---

It's pap. We give our dreams and wishes to Jesus himself, they don't belong to Mary!
In defence one could say that Mary is presenting them on our behalf, but that's not really the same as her intercession to the Father.

It's a perfectly good song which has gone so sentimental about Mary that it's strayed into dodgy territory. I won't do it at my church in Somerset because of this, I'm not the only person who has pointed this out too!


Max.

---

quote:

---

I've always wanted to acquire a novel image of Herself and declare my own, but I'm not wholly sure how one goes about it!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hart:
Come on, Max. "Wishes and dreams" aren't discrete things like a book or an armadillo that we can only give to one person at a time. We can give our wishes and dreams to Jesus and to Mary without any dilution.

Sentimental saccharine it may be, heretical it ain't.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:


Good cells in parishes could help.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
One man's pap is another man's devotion.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
Does the church you go to keep a variety of Marian feats. Which ones? Are they kept with any special events / customs?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
I'm away in Victoria, but my beloved Anglo-catholic parish in the downtown eastside in Vancouver is ordaining their new curate on the Feast of the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

---

That's a new one on me - the Apostolic Succession of PCCs.
 

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Posted by mousethief (# 953) on :
 
Today (on the "new" Ortho calendar) is the feast of the Nativity of the Theotokos. Happy Birthday, Panagia! Our little community celebrated with a vesperal liturgy last night, followed by a potluck supper with lots of fun, food, and fellowship. Including incredible chicken made by our khouria.

The service included special hymns to the Theotokos, including one that incorporated bits of the Magnificat, as well as a Theotokos-specific gospel reading (the "blessed is the womb that bore you and the breasts that nursed you" one).
 

---

Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
I'm away in Victoria, but my beloved Anglo-catholic parish in the downtown eastside in Vancouver is ordaining their new curate on the Feast of the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

---

That's a new one on me - the Apostolic Succession of PCCs.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
I'm away in Victoria, but my beloved Anglo-catholic parish in the downtown eastside in Vancouver is ordaining their new curate on the Feast of the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

---

That's a new one on me - the Apostolic Succession of PCCs.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LQ:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
I'm away in Victoria, but my beloved Anglo-catholic parish in the downtown eastside in Vancouver is ordaining their new curate on the Feast of the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

---

That's a new one on me - the Apostolic Succession of PCCs.

---

I have read over the above a dozen times and still cannot understand how Angloid's response follows from A_B's announcement of an ordination.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
It was a reunion - it would probably have been a said mass otherwise. The best thing was that it only took 37 minutes - they don't hang about.

C.R. at Mirfield has always been restrained catholic - more interested in social justice than tat but they ring the angelus and say it silently and, after Compline, some visit the statue of our Lady and say the Salve Regina silently rather than sing it publicly.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:

Is anyone keeping the feast of the Holy Name of Mary (12th September)?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
I wonder if the Society of Mary do something special today - I'm not a member and haven't noticed a website for them, but it may be their feast day.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hart:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:

Is anyone keeping the feast of the Holy Name of Mary (12th September)?

---

We are. We're being slightly naughty and using in-house translations of the propers in the 2002MR, as there's no English edition in print yet.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thurible:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hart:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:

Is anyone keeping the feast of the Holy Name of Mary (12th September)?

---

We are. We're being slightly naughty and using in-house translations of the propers in the 2002MR, as there's no English edition in print yet.

---

I'm sure they'll be splendid but Fr Hunwicke has been providing his translations of propers for the Feast too.

Thurible

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thurible:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hart:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:

Is anyone keeping the feast of the Holy Name of Mary (12th September)?

---

We are. We're being slightly naughty and using in-house translations of the propers in the 2002MR, as there's no English edition in print yet.

---

I'm sure they'll be splendid but Fr Hunwicke has been providing his translations of propers for the Feast too.

Thurible

---

Just have, this morning.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
In my copy of the English Missal today, September 12, is listed as 'The Most Holy Name of Mary' Greater Double.

There are propers for the feast given. I wonder how many, and which, churches were using them today.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hart:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thurible:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hart:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:

Is anyone keeping the feast of the Holy Name of Mary (12th September)?

---

We are. We're being slightly naughty and using in-house translations of the propers in the 2002MR, as there's no English edition in print yet.

---

I'm sure they'll be splendid but Fr Hunwicke has been providing his translations of propers for the Feast too.

Thurible

---

Just have, this morning.

---

Maybe I'm being dense, Leo, but what's the subject of that sentence? Also, what's pro-verb standing for?

---

JusT have, i.e. kept the feast of the Holy Name of Mary.
 

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Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 
I see; you were replying to Laetare, not Thurible. I thought you were claiming to be Fr. Hunwicke!

[ 13. September 2008, 14:28: Message edited by: Hart ]
 

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Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :
 
Oh, that would make my life.
 

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
Monday is Our Lady of Sorrows. I find this a very moving feast as we reflect on the sword which pierced Our Lady's heart.

My church has an evening Mass and we may well sing the Stabat Mater, if there are enough present.

The priest wears white, but sometimes I think another colour would work better as its quite a solemn feel.

Is anyone else observing this holy day, and how?
 

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Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
Is anyone else observing this holy day, and how?

---

No, as we'll be observing Holy Cross Day transferred from Sunday. That's a peculiarity of our BCP 1979; I personally think Holy Cross Day should be added to the three others that take precedence over a Sunday, but who am I?
 

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
I'm in the UK and we observed the Exaltation of the Holy Cross at my church today, and then the next day, tomorrow, Our Lady of Sorrows.

But I don't know if other churches are doing the same in England. Anyone know what their church is doing - did you keep the Holy Cross today?
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
We kept Holy Cross today (see 'Saints, Feasts and Festivals' thread passim ), and, if we had a daily Mass, would doubtless be observing Our Lady of Sorrows tomorrow. But we don't. Sigh.

Thanks for the reminder, though, peeps. The Office will have to suffice!

Ian J.
 

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Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Oblatus:
I personally think Holy Cross Day should be added to the three others that take precedence over a Sunday, but who am I?

---

• All Saints' Day
• Christmas Day
• Epiphany
• Holy Name
• Presentation
• Transfiguration

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
Monday is Our Lady of Sorrows. I find this a very moving feast as we reflect on the sword which pierced Our Lady's heart.

My church has an evening Mass and we may well sing the Stabat Mater, if there are enough present.

The priest wears white, but sometimes I think another colour would work better as its quite a solemn feel.

Is anyone else observing this holy day, and how?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
Monday is Our Lady of Sorrows. I find this a very moving feast as we reflect on the sword which pierced Our Lady's heart.

My church has an evening Mass and we may well sing the Stabat Mater, if there are enough present.

The priest wears white, but sometimes I think another colour would work better as its quite a solemn feel.

Is anyone else observing this holy day, and how?

---

I agree with you that it has a rather sombre feel. I prayed the Office from the BDP this morning which followed the Common of the BVM in many points, but I didn't feel this entirely 'worked' - the Common is pretty joyful in nature and follows the Festal psalter at Lauds.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Forthview:

The Masses bore the imprint of B16 -7 candles on the altar and certain Latin hymns BUT the French bishops were keen to emphasize the Roman Mass in the Ordinary Form well celebrated.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
dj_ordinaire what is the BDP you mention?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
I agree with you that it has a rather sombre feel. I prayed the Office from the BDP this morning which followed the Common of the BVM in many points, but I didn't feel this entirely 'worked' - the Common is pretty joyful in nature and follows the Festal psalter at Lauds.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thurible:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
dj_ordinaire what is the BDP you mention?

---

I'm not dj_o but I imagine he's referring to Benedictine Daily Prayer.

Thurible

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
I meant to say in my opening comment I meant the discussion to be of feasts of Our Lady in the Western Catholic tradition.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cyprian:
One feast for which I've lately begun to rather love is that of the Protecting Veil. I know that it is originally Byzantine but the fact that it is now more popular in Russia shows how readily this can be adopted, and there seems something very English about entrusting our home town/city/country to the intercession of the Mother of God.

It is the dedication of the Russian patriarchal parish in Manchester, and it seems that they plan to have a Liturgy on their Patronal Festival. Hmmm. I wonder whether I can get the day off work.

---

If the last two months of cloudy weather is any indication, it looks as if the Protecting Veil is working only too well in these parts.

 

---

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cyprian:
there seems something very English about entrusting our home town/city/country to the intercession of the Mother of God.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cyprian:
One feast for which I've lately begun to rather love is that of the Protecting Veil. I know that it is originally Byzantine but the fact that it is now more popular in Russia shows how readily this can be adopted, and there seems something very English about entrusting our home town/city/country to the intercession of the Mother of God.

It is the dedication of the Russian patriarchal parish in Manchester, and it seems that they plan to have a Liturgy on their Patronal Festival. Hmmm. I wonder whether I can get the day off work.

---

If the last two months of cloudy weather is any indication, it looks as if the Protecting Veil is working only too well in these parts.

---

 

---

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
A picture of Our Lady of Coventry, for sceptics.

Thurible
 

---

Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
I note the host's comments, thank you. I should have made it more clear that my intention was to discuss devotion to Our Lady in the context of her feasts in Western Catholic - or even Western Protestant - traditions.

Thousands of Church of England churches are dedicated in honour of Mary. Some keep their Parish Reast day on August 15th, and some on September 8th - the Assumption and the Nativity. Do any we know keep their feast on another of our Lady's feast days?
 

---

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
I note the host's comments, thank you. I should have made it more clear that my intention was to discuss devotion to Our Lady in the context of her feasts in Western Catholic - or even Western Protestant - traditions.

Thousands of Church of England churches are dedicated in honour of Mary. Some keep their Parish Reast day on August 15th, and some on September 8th - the Assumption and the Nativity. Do any we know keep their feast on another of our Lady's feast days?

---

quote:

---

Today's feast is an occasion for us to accept all the adversity we encounter as personal purification, and to co-redeem with Christ. Mary our Mother teaches us not to complain in the midst of trials as we know she never would. She encourages us to unite our sufferings to the sacrifice of her son and so offer them as spiritual gifts for the benefit of our family, the Church, and all humanity.

---

quote:

---

The Troparion of the Feast:
Thy Nativity, O Virgin Theotokos, hath proclaimed joy to all the world; for from thee hath dawned the Sun of Righteousness, Christ our God, annulling the curse and bestowing the blessing, abolishing death and granting us life eternal.

---

quote:

---

From the Beatitudes for the Feast:
Let both barren and mothers dance for joy; make bold and leap up in gladness, O ye childless. For the barren and childless woman brings forth the Theotokos, who is to deliver Eve from her pains in travail and Adam from the curse.

---

quote:

---

We used "O Sanctissima" today,(For the Solemnity of Our Lady of Mercy.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
And then Cyprian is on about it being Our Lady's Birthday - but I thought that was September 8th - a feast held in common by Christians of the West and of the East. Help on this one too!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Forthview:
I think that Cyprian is referring to the Julian calendar rather than the more usual Gregorian calendar.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Forthview:
It is always confusing for us in the West who have used the Gregorian calendar for centuries that certain Eastern christians for most of the time use the Julian calendar and you will find all the feasts 10 to 12 ? days later than you might expect them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Forthview:
Generally speaking Our Lady of Mercy is kept on 24th September - if it is celebrated - it is probably an optional memorial these days.

---

quote:

---

Feast of Our Lady of Walsingham. In 1993, the Bishops' Conference of England and Wales presented to Rome proposals for a new liturgical calendar for England and Wales. These were finally approved by the Vatican to take effect from Advent 2000. Among the changes is a new feast of Our Lady of Walsingham to be celebrated as a memorial (a feast in East Anglia) on September 24th.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
On a slightly sour note, I have been a bit miffed this summer to see that our place (following the Roman Catholic lectionary) has missed out on the Transfiguration, St. Bartholomew and St. Matthew.

---

How did you miss out on the Transfiguration? It's on August 6th and I think that was a Wednesday this year. Did that get transferred in the U.K. too somehow?

Mind you I'm not criticising since my diocese transfers some holy days too.

Maybe your church can try what the priests at my parish do. When a feast or saint's day gets trumped by another feast or Sunday, they will often mention that saint or feast at the greeting or during the prayers of the faithful. As in "if today weren't the 86th Sunday in Ordinary Time today we would be remembering St. So-and-so of the Five Wounds" or "through the intercession of St. So-and-so we pray to the Lord..... Lord hear our prayer". They might get a shout-out during the homily too.
 

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Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 
Maybe Bishops Finger was keeping the Julian Calendar

Transfiguration isn't transferred, but if it occurs on a Sunday it displaces the Sunday. Only Feasts of the Lord displace the Sundays whereas Saints do not (apart from SS Peter and Paul, All Saints and the Assumption of our Lady). The following are the Feasts of the Lord which trump the Sundays:

The Presentation of the Lord
The Transfiguration of the Lord
The Triumph of the Cross
The Dedication of the Lateran Basilica

Why the last is counted as a Feast of the Lord I do not know! It does, however, fall on a Sunday this year (9 November) so there is no 32nd Sunday this year - and that's universal, not just England and Wales!
 

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Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :
 
Fr. TT's post here reminded me of the perfect example to what I just described. In the U.S. Epiphany gets transferred to a Sunday however in Latin America everybody knows that it always falls on January 6th no matter what day of the week.

I once went to the spanish mass on the traditional date in the middle of the week. I think that year Epiphany was on the following Sunday. At the greeting the priest mentioned that it was the traditional date for Epiphany and he recognized that some of us were there for that reason. The prayers and readings were all done according to the U.S. calendar and half of the homily was given to the day's proper readings but the second half began: " for those of you here to celebrate the Kings' Day..." and he continued with a short homily on Epiphany. It was probably a preview of that Sunday's coming attractions.
 

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Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :
 
The Dedication of St. John Lateran Basilica is a feast of Our Lord because the proper name of the Basilica is the Archbasilica of Our Saviour. It is dedicated to Our Lord.
 

---

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pancho:
Fr. TT's post here reminded me of the perfect example to what I just described. In the U.S. Epiphany gets transferred to a Sunday however in Latin America everybody knows that it always falls on January 6th no matter what day of the week.

I once went to the spanish mass on the traditional date in the middle of the week. I think that year Epiphany was on the following Sunday. At the greeting the priest mentioned that it was the traditional date for Epiphany and he recognized that some of us were there for that reason. The prayers and readings were all done according to the U.S. calendar and half of the homily was given to the day's proper readings but the second half began: " for those of you here to celebrate the Kings' Day..." and he continued with a short homily on Epiphany. It was probably a preview of that Sunday's coming attractions.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pancho:
Fr. TT's post here reminded me of the perfect example to what I just described. In the U.S. Epiphany gets transferred to a Sunday however in Latin America everybody knows that it always falls on January 6th no matter what day of the week.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
The Dedication of St. John Lateran Basilica is a feast of Our Lord because the proper name of the Basilica is the Archbasilica of Our Saviour. It is dedicated to Our Lord.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by New Yorker:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pancho:
Fr. TT's post here reminded me of the perfect example to what I just described. In the U.S. Epiphany gets transferred to a Sunday however in Latin America everybody knows that it always falls on January 6th no matter what day of the week.

---

And about damn time to move it back to 6 January!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
The Dedication of St. John Lateran Basilica is a feast of Our Lord because the proper name of the Basilica is the Archbasilica of Our Saviour. It is dedicated to Our Lord.

---

Possibly, though I am skeptical of that explanation. The Dedication Feast has nothing to do with the title of a Church - that is the "Titular Solemnity" or "Feast of Title" or, as the Anglicans have it, "Patronal Festival". The Titular Feast of the Lateran Basilica is the Feast of the Transfiguration. The Feast of Dedication, or Dedication Festival in Anglican parlance, has a different meaning.

It is a Christian version of the Jewish Feast of Dedication (as mentioned, for example, in John 10:22), which celebrates the re-dedication of the Jerusalem Temple after its desecration by Antiochus Epiphanes (168 BC).

---

Note that this rededication took place on the final day of the Jewish ninth month. The suggested date for celebrating a Dedication Festival in the Church of England (in instances where the actual day is lost in time) is the first Sunday of October i.e. the Sunday falling after that.
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Ahem.



I have no idea why I was wittering on about missing the Transfiguration this year.

Perhaps I am becoming a bit discombobulated at trying to come to terms with the peculiar calendar we seem to keep/make up/ignore at our place!

Ian J.
 

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
I seem to remember a priest telling me that the Feast of Dedication / Consecration of a church was a Feast of Our Lord.
 

---

Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
The following are ... Feasts of the Lord ...

The Presentation of the Lord

---

 

---

Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
Tomorrow, 24th September, is an important feast in England - the Feast of Our lady of Walsingham.

We are having Mass for the feast, and Benediction at our Church. Our weekday masses like this are not always well attended.

What is anyone else doing?
 

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
the 24th is also Our Lady of Ransom
 

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Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 
I thought that was simply another title for OLoW?
 

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Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 
Not quite. It used to be the only Marian Feast proper to England and Wales alone, for some obscure reason*. The Bishops' Conference took over the date for OLW as the English national feast of OL, thus replacing OL of Ransom.

*Obscure reason is that OL Ransom has strong Spanish connections relating to the liberation, or ransoming, of Christian prisoners of the Moors. After the Reformation England was lost as "Mary's Dowry" and the Church was in captivity to the secular power. Honouring Mary as OL of Ransom was a way of asking for her to pray for release from that captivity. Pope Leo XIII (surprise surprise) instituted all this. A Guild of our Lady of Ransom was set up to work and pray for the conversion of England and Pope Leo became its first President. It still exists and does great work of collecting money for poor parishes.
 

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
We observed Our Lady of Walsingham feast yesterday. I think this is a good feast which can unite Anglicans and RCs in England in prayer.

We were told at Mass that now in England the feast is generally to be called 'Our Lady of Walsingham.' Our prayers focussed on Walsingham itself and for our nation.

We sang 'As I kneel before you.' It was so lovely gently singing that moving hymn.
 

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Posted by Audrey Ely (# 12665) on :
 
The 1662 Prayer Book of the Church of England (and indeed some subsequent revisions both in England and overseas)mentions some feasts of the Blessed Virgin Mary, including her Conception on December 8th.

However, I am not entirely clear to what extent they have been observed in the Church of England, especially in the Church of England in the period 1662-1850. The Conception is in the Calendar of the 1662 book, but no prayers or readings specifically for the day are provided.

I would like to add that in at least one case a red letter day is also given a name associated with the Virgin - I refer to the 'Presentation of Christ in the Temple' to which is added 'commonly called The Purification of Saint Mary the Virgin'. The latter title is the only title which appears in the calendar of the 1662 Prayer Book.
 

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
7th October is the Feast of Our Lady of the Rosary. Does your church observe this feast of Our Lady?

I'm not sure how this feast came about but uit seems to me good to have the feast in the month of the Holy Rosary.
 

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Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
7th October is the Feast of Our Lady of the Rosary. Does your church observe this feast of Our Lady?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
I'm not sure how this feast came about

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
7th October is the Feast of Our Lady of the Rosary. Does your church observe this feast of Our Lady?

I'm not sure how this feast came about but uit seems to me good to have the feast in the month of the Holy Rosary.

---

Blessing of rosaries after mass tomorrow. School children ill present roses to our lady's shrine after mass, and the rosary will be said. But I'll be in school learning unimportant subjects, such as calculus,so I'll miss it.
I'll just have to remember the feast by saying the office and finishing my rosary novena.
We get the lovely hymn "Te Gestientem Gaudiis" at lauds tomorrow.
 

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
What a fab way to keep the feast of Our Lady of the Holy Rosary. That's good. I really hope those ideas spread - it would be good to encourage people with rosaries to bring them to church on the feast day.

What about the Motherhood of Our Lady feast its one I don't know much about. Whats its story and is it kept widely?

Thanks, guys
 

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Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 
I have mentioned on another thread, here, the history of the development of 1 January, which was originally the Feast of Mary's Maternity. This was eclipsed over time and later supplanted by the Feast of the Circumcision in the 1570 Tridentine Calendar. Rather surprisingly, the Tridentine Calendar had no Feast of Mary's Maternity at all.

Various local churches (Portugal, Venice, Naples, Tuscany) had a Feast of the Maternity of Mary, on various different days, from the eighteenth century onwards. It was only in 1931 that it was again made a Feast of the Universal Church, on the 1500th anniversary of the Council of Ephesus, and it's day fixed as 11 October.

With the revision of the Roman Calendar in 1969, 1 January was restored as the Feast of Mary, Mother of God, and thus 11 October became obsolete. It is now only observed in the Catholic Church by those who use the 1962 Roman Missal, in which 1 January is the Feast of the Circumcision.

It needs to be noted that in the Catholic Church only one of the Calendars may be used - one cannot cut and paste.
 

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Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:


It needs to be noted that in the Catholic Church only one of the Calendars may be used - one cannot cut and paste.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:
A similar situation exists with Anglican churches that use the BCP 1662 rite - often once a week. Do they (as I did) use the current lectionary, or the one provided in the BCP?

---

quote:

---

I have mentioned on another thread, here, the history of the development of 1 January, which was originally the Feast of Mary's Maternity. This was eclipsed over time and later supplanted by the Feast of the Circumcision in the 1570 Tridentine Calendar.

---

quote:

---

It is now only observed in the Catholic Church by those who use the 1962 Roman Missal, in which 1 January is the Feast of the Circumcision.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ceremoniar:

quote:

---

I have mentioned on another thread, here, the history of the development of 1 January, which was originally the Feast of Mary's Maternity. This was eclipsed over time and later supplanted by the Feast of the Circumcision in the 1570 Tridentine Calendar.

---

Actually, the feast is much older than the Tridentine kalendar. As was stated, the feast was kept in various places, including the East, and was firmly established in the Middle Ages.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03779a.htm

---

quote:

---

It was only in 1931 that it was again made a Feast of the Universal Church, on the 1500th anniversary of the Council of Ephesus, and it's day fixed as 11 October.

---

Thanks for the info. Why was 11 October fixed on?

On the tangent thing - some churches uses the old latin form, and the new on the same day - do they change altars and vestment colours with the different calendars on the same day if there is a conflict? It seems quite a faff to me.
 

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Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
11th October was the date of the definition at the council of Ephesus that Mary was the Theotokos - God-bearer or Mother of God.

I was once present at a Tridentine rite Mass in a church in Glasgow during the period of time known before the council as Septuagesima. t
This is no longer the case pre- Lent. The church colours on and around the altar and tabernacle were green, as the church is normally used for the ordinary roman rite Masses -but the celebrant in the Tridentine rite was wearing the traditional pre-Lent purple.
 

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Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
The local parish back home on Lincolnshire where the Tridentine Mass is celebrated just needs to change the pulpit and lectern falls. The tabernacle veil is usually gold IIRC. Changing the pulpit and lectern falls us about a two minute job, which, in my limited experience, they usully bother to do.

PD
 

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Posted by Laetare2 (# 14197) on :
 
The Ordo - Fr Hunwicke's lectionary - says for today, Thursday of this week, that is October 16th,
'The Purity of Our Lady' but I don't know anything about this feast. Anyone help?
 

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Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :
 
What did you do?
 

---

Posted by Cyprian (# 5638) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Forthview:
11th October was the date of the definition at the council of Ephesus that Mary was the Theotokos - God-bearer or Mother of God.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
I like to sing on All Saints Day 'Ye Watchers and Ye holy ones' with the lovely second verse about Our Lady:

O higher than the cherubim,
more glorious than the seraphim,
lead their praises,
Alleluia!
Thou bearer of the eternal Word,
most gracious, magnify the Lord

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cyprian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
I like to sing on All Saints Day 'Ye Watchers and Ye holy ones' with the lovely second verse about Our Lady:

O higher than the cherubim,
more glorious than the seraphim,
lead their praises,
Alleluia!
Thou bearer of the eternal Word,
most gracious, magnify the Lord

---

I love that hymn, as well, Laetare.

That verse is based on the standard zadostoinik from the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom, (the zadostoink being the hymn to Our Lady in the Anaphora). I notice, though, that the magnification of Our Lady has been changed to an exhortation to Our Lady to magnify the Lord.

---

quote:

---

Thou who, without defilement barest God the Word: true Mother of God, we magnify thee!

thou hallowed temple, noetical paradise, and the glory of all virgins.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cyprian:
I notice, though, that the magnification of Our Lady has been changed to an exhortation to Our Lady to magnify the Lord.

---

To be fair, the Holy Gospel of Luke does not record the words 'My soul doth magnify myself...'

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:

quote:

---

Thou who, without defilement barest God the Word: true Mother of God, we magnify thee!

thou hallowed temple, noetical paradise, and the glory of all virgins.

---

Thanks, mate, for letting me know about that. I'm glad someone else likes that hymn.

---

That's quite all right.

quote:

---

I think those words you quote must originally be in another language and translated, because they sound a bit funny in English - who says 'noetical paradise'?

---

They'll be translated either from Greek or Slavonic. Someone more knowledgeable in linguistics will be able to comment further but I don't think there's a word in English that adequately reflects the meaning of nous so it has just been imported as it is, and eveloped an adjectival form. Still, not the sort of word you hear every day. Equally unusual is another translation in which it is rendered as supersensual. There's a pdf here if anybody's interested.

quote:

---

Are there pictures of Our Lady in the centre of All the Saints. Its All Saints time now, and we have a big Mass tomorrow, and I know lots of you will be as well. I hope you light a candle at our Lady's statue - chief among the saints.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hart:
I'd probably go for rational rather than noetical, although it's not perfect, you're right.

---

quote:

---

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Are there pictures of Our Lady in the centre of All the Saints. Its All Saints time now, and we have a big Mass tomorrow, and I know lots of you will be as well. I hope you light a candle at our Lady's statue - chief among the saints.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's a rather nice one.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
I still think 99% of folk don't have a clue what noetical means!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cyprian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
I still think 99% of folk don't have a clue what noetical means!

---

I suspect you're right. I don't think that's any reason not to use it, though. There are many things about Christianity or that go on in churches that aren't immediately understood because people don't know what they mean. In time, we learn about the Faith, and we can always explain specific things if people ask. I would be hesitant to dilute or alter the meaning of something just to make it more immediately understood. I'm not suggesting this is what you're saying but I do hear that sort of view expressed a fair bit.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cyprian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
I still think 99% of folk don't have a clue what noetical means!

---

I suspect you're right. I don't think that's any reason not to use it, though. There are many things about Christianity or that go on in churches that aren't immediately understood because people don't know what they mean. In time, we learn about the Faith, and we can always explain specific things if people ask. I would be hesitant to dilute or alter the meaning of something just to make it more immediately understood. I'm not suggesting this is what you're saying but I do hear that sort of view expressed a fair bit.

---

I think that worrying about occasional words like 'noetic' is straining at gnats - I've been taking a few people to Eucharist lately and their questions are usually more general - 'what's all that with the bread?' sort of thing. Start abandoning things because people can't understand them and there wouldn't be much Christianity left!

Actually, two of my visitors were cradle Catholics and the thing which really caught them off guard was... everyone shaking hands with the clergy on the way out. They wanted to know if this was some sort of religious rite, perhaps believed to impart blessing for the day or something. They seemed a bit disappointed when I said it was just Anglicans being polite!
 

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Posted by Saint Chad (# 5645) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Actually, two of my visitors were cradle Catholics and the thing which really caught them off guard was... everyone shaking hands with the clergy on the way out. They wanted to know if this was some sort of religious rite, perhaps believed to impart blessing for the day or something. They seemed a bit disappointed when I said it was just Anglicans being polite!

---

No, no, no. That's how the priest finds out what the hell is going on in the parish!

"I was rather surprised that Mrs Featherstonehaugh's name wasn't on the sick list, Vicar, after all she's been a life-long member of this parish.!

"Well, I shall make sure it goes on NOW THAT YOU'VE ACTUALLY BOTHERED TO TELL ME."
 

---

Posted by Cyprian (# 5638) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:
I can see the force of this POV, but logically wouldn't it mean celebrating the liturgy in Greek or Slavonic or whatever, rather than using a translation which isn't really a translation?

---

I don't think so. English isn't that defective a language and it seems to be the general consensus among our bishops that it carries the meaning of the Liturgy just as well as any other language. It's just the occasional word with a nuance that doesn't have an English equivalent is adopted and possibly anglicised. That's part of how English has developed for centuries. It seems to work.

Besides, the concept of the nous, and how we participate in and internalise the sacramental life of the Church comes up so often in Orthodox spiritual material and sermons that it is difficult to imagine anybody struggling with it when being a regular part of that sort of environment.
 

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Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:

Actually, two of my visitors were cradle Catholics and the thing which really caught them off guard was... everyone shaking hands with the clergy on the way out. They wanted to know if this was some sort of religious rite, perhaps believed to impart blessing for the day or something. They seemed a bit disappointed when I said it was just Anglicans being polite!

---

I've recently been attending the Communion Service at S. Seamus Flaherty's Catholic Church and there are several things which make it stand out amongst my experiences of Papist conventicles. The fact that the minister stands at the door and chats to people as they go out is one of them - as is the fact that they sing enthusiastically, say the responses enthusiastically, there's incense, we used Missa Orbis Factor the other day. It's all very Church of England.

Thurible
 

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Posted by Saint Chad (# 5645) on :
 
The best ones are, dear Censer.
 

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Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Saint Chad:
"I was rather surprised that Mrs Featherstonehaugh's name wasn't on the sick list, Vicar

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LQ:
"Fanshawe," I think.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
...P.S. Shouldn't that have been Emm et Rev Domine? Vocative?

---

You are, as ever, correct. Having only the office of the day to say, a bottle of Ch Calon Segur 1990, suffered (I say, "suffered") for the Holy Souls got between me and correct grammar. Exits stage left saying, "naughty deacon, naughty deacon, whilst the choir of the Minor Basilica of the New Forest chant the Seven Penitential Psalms.
 

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 

quote:

---

We even have an announcement of the Indulgence posted up.

---

quote:

---

A plenary indulgence applicable to all the souls in Purgatory is granted to any of the faithful who:
1. on one of the days from 1-8 November visit devoutly a cemetery or simply pray mentally for the dead.
2. on All Souls Day visit a church or chapel with devotion and there recite the Our Father and the Creed.

A partial indulgence, applicable only to the souls in Purgatory, is granted to any of the faithful who
1. visit devoutly a cemetery or who simply pray mentally for the dead
2. recite devoutly Lauds or Vespers of the Office of the Dead, or the invocation "Eternal rest grant unto them, O Lord".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Did you:

1. Pray for the Holy Father's intentions?
2. Go to confession?
3. Receive Holy Communion?

Those are the "usual conditions" for receiving an Indulgence. Not sure that Anglican confession and HC counts! Here's the notice:

quote:

---

A plenary indulgence applicable to all the souls in Purgatory is granted to any of the faithful who:
1. on one of the days from 1-8 November visit devoutly a cemetery or simply pray mentally for the dead.
2. on All Souls Day visit a church or chapel with devotion and there recite the Our Father and the Creed.

A partial indulgence, applicable only to the souls in Purgatory, is granted to any of the faithful who
1. visit devoutly a cemetery or who simply pray mentally for the dead
2. recite devoutly Lauds or Vespers of the Office of the Dead, or the invocation "Eternal rest grant unto them, O Lord".

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LQ:
In a pinch, does one have to know what they are, or can one simply pray for his intentions? I'm thinking along the lines of baptism, at which the minister need only intend to do what the Church does at baptism, even if s/he doesn't know what that entails.

---

No pinch necessary; the standard is just to pray an Our Father, a Hail Mary and a Glory Be "for the Pope's intentions", without knowing what those are. God doesn't mind looking them up for you.
 

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Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 


No, you have to go to confession.

It is useful to know what the Pope's intentions are, btw, but it suffices simply to pray "For the intentions of the Holy Father"
 

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Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 
oops. Cross-posted with Hart.
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:


No, you have to go to confession.

It is useful to know what the Pope's intentions are, btw, but it suffices simply to pray "For the intentions of the Holy Father"

---

I am due (confession)again next week.
 

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Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
I think that the confession and the Communion must be made with a priest in full communion with the roman pontiff who has granted the Indulgence.

However the good Lord will reward you amply for all your efforts.
 

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
Next Friday (21st February)is the Feast of the Presentation of Our Lady. Or parish list says Mass will be offered for enclosed religious.

The Holy Father has said: "Mary, whom we contemplate on the Memorial of her Presentation in the Temple as Mother and model of the Church, who welcomes in herself both vocations: to virginity and to marriage, to contemplative life and to active life."

Is this feast kept widely and are there any special customs or practices done on it?
 

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Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
It's an Ebbsfleet Feast so should certainly be kept in Anglo-Catholic parishes in the western part of the Province of Canterbury!

Thurible
 

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
This feast features in works of art, but I was also wondering if famous people have preached about it or written about it. Does anyone know?

I'm pleased to know that some of the Anglo Catholic parishes keep it - are there special events connected with that keeping of the feast?
 

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Posted by Cyprian (# 5638) on :
 
(I presume you meant the 21st of November, Laetare. I know your church uses a different calendar from mine but I didn't think you were that far out. ).

We keep this feast as one of the twelve great feasts. To my knowledge, there are no special liturgical actions such as the blessing of anything in particular but the hymns and doctrine of the feast are lovely. I have a reflection on the feast by Fr Sergius Bulkagov in the recently translated and published Churchly Joy. We'll be doing Great Vespers at my parish.

quote:

---

A day of joy has dawned, and a feast worthy of all reverence. For today she who was Virgin before childbirth, and remained Virgin after bearing child, is offered in the temple. The venerable Zacharius, father of the Forerunner, cried aloud rejoicing: 'The expectation of those in affliction, herself holy, is come to the holy temple, there to be consecrated as dwelling-place of the Almighty.' Let Joachim the forefather be glad and let Anna rejoice exceedingly, for they have offered unto God, as a three-year-old victim of sacrifice, the Queen without blemish. Rejoice with them, O ye mothers; ye virgins, dance for joy; and ye barren, be of good cheer. For the pre-ordained Queen of all has opened the Kingdom of Heaven unto us. Rejoice and be exceeding glad, ye peoples!

---

 

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
THE PRESENTATION OF OUR LADY IN THE TEMPLE

Why did I say February 21st - I don't know, I meant it as November 21st. It seems from what you are saying then that the Greek orthodox see it as a big feast. Its not so big in my church.

I dont have a copy of the Office of Readings but did wonder what was read on this feast in it.
 

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
Well, we celebrated it this morning.

What a lovely, scriptural feast - God prepares a temple for His Son. And we are temples of the holy Spirit like Mary, our mother.
 

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Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 
There's an important difference in this feast in East and West, I think. The breviary description makes it clear that what the fest primarily commemorates for us is the dedication of the church of Saint Mary which was built in Jerusalem near the site of the Temple. The tradition of the child Mary being presented to the Lord by her parents in the Temple is very much secondary, and none of the propers refer to it as a historical event.
 

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Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
I should have gone to Mass but got caught up in meetings.
 

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
I like the Saint of the Day entry here. It does suggest that the Greek orthodox church does observe the feast more than we do. That's interesting.

A theme for the prayers today the Holy Father has asked is for contemplaivte men and women. I shall pray for them this evening.

is the church in jerusalem still there that its the dedication of?
 

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Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
I dont have a copy of the Office of Readings but did wonder what was read on this feast in it.

---

quote:

---

What should I say of [Mary's] sparing portion of food, of her diligence at her duty, the latter beyond nature, the former below its needs; she spared no labour, she fasted for two days together. And when she had to eat, she took food that was at hand, not to please herself, but to prevent death. She slept because there was need, not from desire, and even when her body was at rest, her soul kep vigil; for often when sleeping she would repeat what she had read, or continued where sleep had interrupted, or reviewed what had been done, or spoke of what remained to be done.

---

I suppose St Ambrose was writing about the qualities he admired in virgins, which must of course be true also of the young BVM. And he seems a little carried away!

Interesting antiphons I hadn't noticed in the Common of Feasts of S. Mary the Virgin:

Ant. 2. O holy Mother of God, + thou hast yielded a pleasant odour, like the best myrrh.

Ant. 3. Sing for us + again and again before this maiden's bed the sweet songs of the drama.

Ant. 9. Rejoice, + O Virgin Mary: thou hast mightily destroyed all the heresies in the whole world.

And the one that made me burst out laughing as I prayed:

Ant. 12. I went down + into the garden of nuts to see the fruits of the valley, and whether the vine flourishesd and the pomegranates budded, alleluia.

Oblatus, from the garden of nuts
 

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Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :
 
The Office of Readings for the Presentation of the BVM.
 

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Posted by Alt Wally (# 3245) on :
 
The Pokrov, or the Feast of the Protecting Veil is a pretty big deal.
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by LQ:
The Office of Readings for the Presentation of the BVM.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alt Wally:
The Pokrov, or the Feast of the Protecting Veil is a pretty big deal.

---

So? is that what today is called by the Geek orthodox? What is the meaning of the veil for today?

Isn't
this an interesting painting of today's feast... Not quite sure what is going on but it is fine to me.
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Geek Orthodox?

Oh dear.



I'll get me coat..........

Ian J.
 

---

Posted by Leetle Masha (# 8209) on :
 
Hehe, Yes, Ian, you can spot us in a crowd. Look for our horn-rimmed eyeglasses and our white shirts with the pocket-protectors and the breast pocked filled with 5 or 6 biros.

If our laptops should crash, you will hear collective sighs of "Kyrie eleison" muttered over and over, 40 times.

Line feed, carriage return,

Mary
 

---

Posted by Alt Wally (# 3245) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alt Wally:
The Pokrov, or the Feast of the Protecting Veil is a pretty big deal.

---

So? is that what today is called by the Geek orthodox? What is the meaning of the veil for today?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by LQ:
The Office of Readings for the Presentation of the BVM.

---

Yes - I read it after mass and was impressed with how St. Augustine's sermon is a fitting commentary on the gospel for today.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
The Holy Father mentioned praying for enclosed nuns and monks at the Feast of the Presentation of Our Lady - does anyone have other themes in prayer for that day.

I found those antiphons mentioned funny - but don't know that book. Do any breviaries have proper set pieces for the feast of the presentation?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LQ:
I doubt I'll see my parish observing the Conception of the BVM in my lifetime. I'll be here as usual. There will be a Procession and Solemn High Mass followed by a potluck supper. I've even managed to attract a curious friend into accompanying me.

---

quote:

---

Its coming up soon to Immaculate Conception. I love this festival in Advent. We have an evening Mass with refreshments afterwards. How will you be observing it at your church or chapel?

---

quote:

---

Immaculate

---

is important. Thats what I'm after!
 

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Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :
 
Ah, sorry.

Yes, the feast isn't mentioned either here or here - only here (pdf). I rang the church office to confirm, though, and it's on. In fact, it's the only Solemn High Mass in the diocese that day.

Here's the leaflet (pdf) from last year.

[ 05. December 2008, 13:41: Message edited by: LQ ]
 

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Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
djo - i am sure that I am an old stick in the mud,but I wouldn't describe a tridentine Mass of SSPX as a 'giggle'.

but more importantly ,are you going to laugh at them or with them ?
 

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
Is there any devotional act, prayer or church ceremony especially associated with Immaculate Conception?

I know white is used as a colour. I was wondering if statues of Our Lady are especially decorated or special events held.
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Well, it's a new one on me, too. Our place is observing it with a Solemn Low Mass (thanks, Carys!), at which three hymns will be sung. I shall report any special prayer or liturgical act accordingly........if I notice anything, that is. TPTB have asked me to serve the Mass - my first time, so I may be a bit discombobulated.......

I expect Father will wear our nice white/blue Marian chasuble, though.

Ian J.
 

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
They say Our Lady, the Immacualte Conception, is the patron of the USA. Is this marked especially - do they celebrate Immaculate Conception then especially in the USA.
 

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Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by LQ:
Try here. And I note that they actually call it the Immaculate Conception.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
Does Immaculate Conception have a Vigil Mass - and why not if not - I think Assumption does.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thurible:
It doesn't this year (a Sunday in Advent trumping a Solemnity) but I can't remember whether or not it does ordinarily and don't have a missal at hand to check.

Thurible

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
Actually, 7 December was the date of Ambrose's consecration.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cyprian:
From memory of the modern Roman Rite, nothing takes precedence over a Sunday in Advent. The four Sundays form a sequential unit and must not be interrupted. The Conception, (Immaculate, if you like That Sort Of Thing™), must be transferred if it falls on a Sunday.

---

Indeed.

Thurible
 

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Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 
Papa and the Immacolata:

2006

2007
 

---

Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
Thanks for the links to the lovely photographs Triple Tiara they are fantastic.

I know I'm always asking about things but in this photo who are the pictures at the base of the statue of? Or are they representations of our Lady?

And I know some guys here know all about what the pope is wearing so please could you tell what the names are of the robes he is wearing at the Immaculate Conception event in this photo.
 

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Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 


The picture looks like a painting of our Lady. One of those pious customs of some people. The flowers would all have been tributes/offerings from various groups or individuals and somebody probably included their own painting or some such gesture.

The Pope is wearing:

Simar - that's his white cassock
Rochet - the lace garment. Ordinary clerics wear a surplice (aka a cotta) while prelates wear a rochet - same function.
Mozetta - the red cape. This is the winter version, lined with fur. JPII did not wear the winter version, but B16 has brought it back.
Stole - the Pope usually wears a red stole as part of his formal wear.
 

---

Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
So the fringed thing beneath the rochet is part of his cassock?
 

---

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 
It's just the fascia - I think known by Anglicans as a cincture.
 

---

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
Piazza di spagna is so called because of the Spanish embassy located in it. you see in some of the photose the spanish flag draped over the balcony of the embassy. i think that the ambassador also greets the Holy father. some of the photos also show the statue of the Madonna with the floral wreath round her arm.
 

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
It is wonderful that the Immaculate Conception is honoured so publcially in Rome. I guess that it is done in that location because the people of Spain have high regard for Our Lady - the Immaculate Conception, someone at Mass today said it was the Spanish mothers' day.

I think its so fab when these feasts of Our Lady have extra ceremonies and not just a mass of the day. I guess all we do i put extra flowers out - but thats something isnt it.
 

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Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :
 
Today at mass the priest reminded everyone that the Immaculate Conception is patroness of the U.S. and that tomorrow is a holy day of obligation hear in the U.S. I'm looking forward to singing 'Immaculate Mary' tomorrow. *crosses fingers* EWTN is broadcasting tomorrow's mass from The National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception.
 

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Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 
I'm wondering what we'll do at my parish tomorrow, as we count the Immaculate Conception as the pseudo secondary feast of our patron. Last year landed on a Saturday, so not much, the year before was a solemn mass.
Altogether, I'm going to three masses. One at the cathedral after finding out This bit of information, another at a church in South Philly, where a priest friend of mine is celebrating the first tridentine mass in his parish, and lastly, I'll be serving the evening mass at my own parish.
 

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Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
I guess that it is done in that location because the people of Spain have high regard for Our Lady - the Immaculate Conception, someone at Mass today said it was the Spanish mothers' day.

---

Nice idea, but not accurate. It's just that a large column in Piazza di Spagna was erected to commemorate Pope Pius IX's definition of the dogma in 1850. It's in the far corner of Piazza di Spagna, right outside the offices of Propaganda Fide. It has been the focus of this commemoration ever since.
 

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Posted by Prosfonesis (# 1158) on :
 
This seems to be the wanted pic.

[I don't know nothing about it; I just fed immaculate conception and 3T's large column in Piazza di Spagna into images.google.]
 

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
It would be fab to hear how Immaculate Conception was celebrated at your home church - or wherever you were. I'll look forward to seeing what folk here have experienced on this great Solemnity.
 

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Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
There's quite a fun photo on the Oxford Oratory's pewsheet here (only available til next week's goes up so look at it quickly!).

Thurible
 

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
Thats a fab photo on the pew sheet. Thanks for pointing to it.

St Alban's Holborn don't seem to have anything listed in their calendar for today - Immaculate Conception. The only thing listed is carol Singing this coming Thursday. Thats odd for such a place, I reckon. Its a bit of a crap website actually.

St Magnus the martyr had a High mass for the Feast on Saturday! How come? Do they use a different calendar to the rest of Christendom. Here is the link to it. You've got to scroll down a bit.
And who are: "The Confraternity of Our lady de Salve Regina"?
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
The ICotBVM was duly celebrated this evening at our place. There were 13 in the Lady Chapel (including Father), which is not bad for a backstreet parish on a cold December night!

We began with the hymn Mary Immaculate, Star of the Morning, and then we said the Angelus before continuing with the Mass. The Nicene Creed was included, as well as a psalm and three readings (our Low Masses usually omit the Gloria and the Creed, and we generally just have the one reading, psalm, Alleluia and Gospel). We sang I'll sing a song to Mary at the Offertory (well, they did - I was busy being server) and finished up with three verses of Immaculate Mary (the Walsingham hymn......).

One small addition to the tat in the Chapel (which is actually quite minimalist!) - a rather nice carved wooden image of Our Lady was flanked by two tall candles. Usually, she just has the one little votive light next to her. (BTW, our main Lady Shrine is actually just outside the chapel proper - there isn't room for the big statue inside it.....).

Ian J.
 

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
That sounds a lovely Mass.

Immaculate Mary is lovely, isn't it? It would be great to see a photo of that chapel.

We had lots of flowers and candles around Our lady's statue today.

Was there a sermon or talk given on the significance of the feast?
 

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Posted by New Yorker (# 9898) on :
 
Standing room only at the noon Mass at my parish. Said Mass with no music, but Father wore a lovely white/gold fiddleback chasuble and maniple. Father had a wonderful homily. Said Gloria and Creed. Start at 12.05. Finished about 12.45. Lots of dine and dash or Judas Walkers. But since there were lots of business types and other workers I can understand. Father was assisted by a Deacon which is odd. Another visiting priest was hearing confessions before Mass and straight through the entire Mass.

I wish RC parishes would do up major feast days; I just don't see it done.
 

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
Can you sum up what Father said? Go on - have a go - it would be interesting to know.

Now here I am in England and do you know what - I don't understand what you mean by " Lots of dine and dash or Judas Walkers." Sounds interesting - any chance you could explain PLEASE!
 

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Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :
 
The Toronto Oratory has a Sung Latin Mass (ordinary form) tonight.

I myself am just on my way off to the Procession and Solemn Mass at the Church of St Mary Magdalene.
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Hazarding a guess, I'd say 'dine and dash' types are those who sneak into Mass round about the Gospel, make their Communion and then sneak quickly away! Dunno about Judas Walkers, though........

We had a homily as well. Father explained that, if Our Lord was to be born without the taint of Original Sin, then Our Lady had to be without that taint as well. He said that when people complain that doctrines such as this are not based on Biblical teaching, it is because the Church and its teachings actually pre-date the Bible as we know it today! Another thread, perhaps.........

It occurred to me that we could have added a few more candles and flowers to the Chapel today, and we could have had incense as well.......

Ian J.
 

---

Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
Hmmm... what are Judas walkers anyone?

Now, Bishops Finger if "Our Lord was to be born without the taint of Original Sin, then Our Lady had to be without that taint as well." Not so sure about that one - does it mean St Anne had to be too?

Does anyone keep octaves of big days now and did Immaculate Conception then have one?
 

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Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
Well, now, I had a very... erm... interesting time last night. Yes, I think that's the term I'm looking for.

Looking for something a bit different I decided to join the SSPX for their evening Mass. I arrived at the little church they use just down the round from my house to find a group of people standing around outside. It turned out that the service was actually being conducte elsewhere so, feeling a little awkward, I was loaded into a car and drive off to a house in the countryside.

So I found myself sitting in someone's front room with about twenty other people praying the joyful mysteries and attending the Mass. I have to say my overall impression was... that's it? That's what Abp Lefebvre got excommunicated for? A simple, normal little mass, a little quieter than normal but in mumbled Latin rather than mumbled English. Nice to see a maniple in use, but no lace, no biretta, only two candles on the altar just like any normal RC church would have, and a short sermonette, again of the absolutely bog-standard sort.

After Mass we prayed the Litany of our Lady and I walked back down the country road that leads back into town.

God knows what they thought of me... I doubt that Anglicanism is much on their radar and I suspect I may have surprised them by owning a rosary and knowing when to genuflect and what-not (the only thing that caught me out was continuing to kneel for the Epistle, which I hadn't expected). When I mentioned I was at the University, the conversation switched irrevocably towards the Godlessness of stem-cell research, with occasional digressions into the heresies of the Russians, Vatican II as the time of persecution predicted in Scripture &c &c.

I'm not really sure what to make of it tbh. All very surreal. It was in some ways redolent of certain Anglo-catholic churches I've worshipped in inasmuch as the group was small, eccentric, in dispute with much of their denomination for reasons obscure to outsiders and contained quite a few well turned-out young men of my own age or a little younger (not something one normally encounters in a church otherwise). I don't think I liked it, pleasant though some of the devotions were and friendly though the people may have been (although with proselytising tendencies!)

One query - at the points in the devotions where the Marian anthem was used, it was 'Hail Holy Queen...' on each occasion. Should it not have been 'Mother of Christ to thee thy people cry' during Advent?
 

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Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
I was going to say that 'Mother of Christ' is only peculiar to Advent in the old rite but as you were with SSPX...

Thurible
 

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Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
thanks for your description of the Mass you attended.It would certainly resonate with my own impressions of a SSPX Mass.

Most Catholics know the prayer 'Hail,holy Queen..Salve Regina.....

Not so many,even including the SSPX members or adherents ,would know the Alma Redemptoris mater.. for the Advent season.

If you told us when it was used, it might be easier to say why. It is traditionally used at the end of the recitation of the Rosary for example.
 

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Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
djo - it is too simplistic to say that archbishop Lefebre was excommunicated just for continuing to celebrate the Tridentine form of the Roman Mass. He refused to recognise the authority of the church to make the changes which were made by the assembled bishops at the Second Vatican Council. He refused to recognise the validity of the reformed rite of celebration of the Eucharist.By refusing to accept the authority of the assembled Fathers,he effectively put himself outside of full communion with the Roman pontiff and the rest of the Catholic church.
 

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Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
Yes, you're right that I was over-simplifying. Nevertheless, it would be true to say that perceived major differences between what are now known as the Ordinary and Extraordinary Forms are one of the main pre-occupations of the SSPX.

The Marian anthem was used three times - once at the end of the joyful mysteries of the Rosary, once after three Aves led by the priest immediately after Mass, and once at the end of the Litany.
 

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Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
The kneeling at the epistle is one which would catch many people out who are not of a certain age.
Pre Vat 2 it was customary to kneel at Mass from the beginning until the Gospel and then again from the Offertory onwards - at least this was the case in UK and Ireland.

Obviously SSPX members would wish to retain the 'old' and 'correct' customs.

As I said, it is customary to recite the Salve Regina at the end of 5 mysteries of the rosary.

The prayers at the end of Mass which would be in English( or in Erse ?) would be the Leonine Prayers,said at the end of a Low Mass from the late 1800s until 1970. They were said in the vernacular ,with the priest kneeling at the altar steps after Mass - 3 Ave Maria,1 Salve Regina, a prayer to St Michael the archangel, and a prayer for the 'liberty and exaltation of Holy mother church' as well as 3 invocations to the Sacred Heart. In Ireland the 'De profundis' was recited for the souls of those who died in political troubles.

At the end of the Litany of Loreto I think it would be technically more liturgically correct to say the Marian anthem suitable to the season,but then again do you think the Virgin Mary would mind ?
 

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Posted by New Yorker (# 9898) on :
 
"Dine and Dashers" is the silly little phrase I use for those who receive Communion and immediately leave - they just keep walking to the door rather than returning to their pew.

"Judas Walkers" means the same thing; it's a term a priest I used to to know used.

Two questions one of which is repeated from earlier on the thread.

1. Why does the Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception not have a Vigil Mass?

2. AFAIK, in the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite, if 8 December is Sunday, then the IC is transferred to Monday. Was this also done in the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rrite?
 

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Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 
Factually, Abp Lefebvre incurred a latae sententiae excommunication only when he ordained 3 bishops without the permission of the Holy See. Until then he had been in the same boat as Hans Kung: communicant Catholic, but on the lunatic fringe.
 

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Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :
 
Procession and Solemn Mass of the Conception. Missa Alme Pater. The BCP rite as adapted in the BAS. Minor propers from the modern Roman Rite. Willan prelude and postlude. Epistle, Gospel, and Prayers of the People sung. Alma Redemptoris Mater as the motet at the offertory. The rector (deacon of the Mass) preached most Anglicanly on the Immaculate Conception as a manifestation of the human need for certainty and orderliness.

Hymns:

"Ye who own the faith of Jesus" (Den des Vaters sinn geboren)

"The Lord whom earth and sea and sky" (Puer Nobis Nascitur)

"Sing we of the blessed Mother" (Abbot's Leigh)

Advent Prose (Rorate Coeli)

"Her virgin eyes saw God incarnate born" (Farley Castle)

I should have liked to sing the Ave Stella Maris to plainsong, and/or "Virgin-born, we bow before thee."

About 20 people showed up, despite the secretary of the Society of Mary sending out an email urging all of us to attend. (He was not among us). A friend of mine, who had expressed an interest in coming to a Mass, stood me up.

The traditional St Mary Mag potluck followed.

[ 09. December 2008, 13:02: Message edited by: LQ ]
 

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Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
TT. I completely agree with your factual statement about Mgr Lefebvre.

One of the 'problems' with the SSPX is that they refuse ,more or less,to recognise the validity of the Ordinary form of the Mass rather than that they simply wish to continue to celebrate in what is now called the Extraordinary form.

PS why was the pope wearing a cream coloured stole yesterday at the Omaggio all'Immacolata ?
 

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Posted by chiltern_hundred (# 13659) on :
 
I'm not sure about that one either, Laetare. I'd argue that our Lady's sins were wiped away by the presence of Our Lord within her, or by her act of saying 'fiat mihi....'. One of these things one can be agnostic about.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
Hmmm... what are Judas walkers anyone?

Now, Bishops Finger if "Our Lord was to be born without the taint of Original Sin, then Our Lady had to be without that taint as well." Not so sure about that one - does it mean St Anne had to be too?

Does anyone keep octaves of big days now and did Immaculate Conception then have one?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by New Yorker:

2. AFAIK, in the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite, if 8 December is Sunday, then the IC is transferred to Monday. Was this also done in the Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rrite?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishop's Finger:
and finished up with three verses of Immaculate Mary (the Walsingham hymn......).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by New Yorker:
"Dine and Dashers" is the silly little phrase I use for those who receive Communion and immediately leave - they just keep walking to the door rather than returning to their pew.

"Judas Walkers" means the same thing; it's a term a priest I used to to know used.

---

I'm guessing it has to do with that joke about him being the first person to ever leave mass (that is, the Last Supper) early.

Mass at my church yesterday (Spanish evening mass for the I.C.) was well attended if somewhat disappointing. I was late and arrived during the Old Testament reading so I don't know what the entrance hymn was. Father celebrated with deacon and I think there was a server. A capella hymns lead by one of our de-facto cantors in the congregation. Readings and prayers for the day. Otherwise it was much like our regular weekday Spanish masses, except there was a Gloria, Creed, and a collection during the Preparation of the Gifts. I might have forgotten something else. Sadly, no "Immaculate Mary" even though that used to be guaranteed around here.

I was a little disapppointed because until a couple of years ago we'd put more effort into this and other feasts. Not so much anymore, with a couple of exceptions.
 

---

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by chiltern_hundred:
I'm not sure about that one either, Laetare. I'd argue that our Lady's sins were wiped away by the presence of Our Lord within her, or by her act of saying 'fiat mihi....'. One of these things one can be agnostic about.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thurible:

quote:

---

Originally posted by chiltern_hundred:
I'm not sure about that one either, Laetare. I'd argue that our Lady's sins were wiped away by the presence of Our Lord within her, or by her act of saying 'fiat mihi....'. One of these things one can be agnostic about.

---

So she wasn't Immaculately Conceived? Hmm.

Thurible

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LQ:
Here (pdf) is the leaflet for our service.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LQ:
Here (pdf) is the leaflet for our service.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
With the possible exception of John the Baptist, no other saint has his or her conception commemorated.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Forthview:
While looking up an old Missal for information about ember days I came across the following ;

7th dec.vigil of Immaculate Cwith its own Mass and gospel from Beginning of St Matthew
15th dec. Octave of Feast ,Mass as on the Feast day but read as the Last gospel that of the Appropriate ember Day ,should the Octave of the Feast fall on an ember Day.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thurible:

quote:

---

Originally posted by chiltern_hundred:
I'm not sure about that one either, Laetare. I'd argue that our Lady's sins were wiped away by the presence of Our Lord within her, or by her act of saying 'fiat mihi....'. One of these things one can be agnostic about.

---

So she wasn't Immaculately Conceived? Hmm.

Thurible

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by New Yorker:
Is there still one in the Extraordinary Form?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LQ:

quote:

---

Originally posted by New Yorker:
Is there still one in the Extraordinary Form?

---

Not according to my missal. And not accoring to the S. Clement's ordo, which essentially follows the Roman Rite as it existed c. 1955. The 1921 Anglican Missal on the Internet Archive has it, though. So it would appear to have been abolished sometime between 1921 and 1955.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thurible:
Interesting.

This, rather batty document, suggests it was that evil pagan "Pope" John XXIII who did away with it when he was busy letting Satan into the Vatican.

Thurible

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
What happened to the Vigil mass of the Immaculate Conception, and who makes these changes?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
With the possible exception of John the Baptist, no other saint has his or her conception commemorated.

---

I'm sure that the other day someone refered to the Greek Orthodox commemorating the Conception of St. Anne....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
What happened to the Vigil mass of the Immaculate Conception, and who makes these changes?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:

The current Roman Missal has just six Vigil Masses: Easter, Christmas, Pentecost, Ascension, Nativity of St. John the Baptist, and Ss. Peter & Paul.

---

My copy of the current Roman Missal has a Vigil for the Assumption. Why Assumption and not IC?
 

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Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 
As I noted above, the list of Feasts with a Vigil is an ancient one, as is the Feast of the Assumption. The Immaculate Conception, however, has a chequered career and was not universally kept. It was only admitted to the Roman Calendar in the late fifteenth century by Pope Sixtus IV. Leo XIII gave it a Vigil. I'm not entirely sure why that was rescinded in 1962, but it's possibly out of a desire for simplification and a restoration of the older list of Vigil Masses. There was certainly a massive desire for simplification of the Liturgy well before the drastic pruning that happened by 1969.

And the snip you make from my quote shows I was speaking gobbledygook! I meant eight Feasts have Vigils, not six, and I forgot to inlude the Assumption .
 

---

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cyprian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
With the possible exception of John the Baptist, no other saint has his or her conception commemorated.

---

I'm sure that the other day someone refered to the Greek Orthodox commemorating the Conception of St. Anne....

---

I may be wrong but I think it's the Conception of the Mother of God. I believe that old usage sees the conception being referred to as an act of the mother. So Joan's conception of her daughter could properly have been referred to as Joan's conception. I think that delivery was referred to in the same sort of way.

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You are correct. A bit like the Feast of the Annunciation - is it a Feast of our Lady or of our Lord? (rhetorical question, I know how you will answer that one ).
 

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Posted by Cyprian (# 5638) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cyprian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop:
With the possible exception of John the Baptist, no other saint has his or her conception commemorated.

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I'm sure that the other day someone refered to the Greek Orthodox commemorating the Conception of St. Anne....

---

I may be wrong but I think it's the Conception of the Mother of God. I believe that old usage sees the conception being referred to as an act of the mother. So Joan's conception of her daughter could properly have been referred to as Joan's conception. I think that delivery was referred to in the same sort of way.

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You are correct. A bit like the Feast of the Annunciation - is it a Feast of our Lady or of our Lord? (rhetorical question, I know how you will answer that one ).

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Well, quite. Quite aside from my own Marian devition, it is treated as a Feast of the Mother of God in our kalendar, and doesn't get the special treatment that a Feast of the Lord would get, (unless you follow modern Greek practice which gives the honoured place of Feasts of the Lord to Feasts of the Mother of God as well tut tut).
 

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Posted by New Yorker (# 9898) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
And the snip you make from my quote shows I was speaking gobbledygook!

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If I only had a nickel for every time I heard a priest speaking gobbledygook ...

(But in all seriousness, I've never heard you speak or write gobbledygook, Fr. TT)
 

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Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :
 
In the Book of Alternative Services, the Annunciation is a Feast of our Lord, but then so are the Visit of the BVM to Elizabeth and the Birth of Saint John the Baptist.

[ 11. December 2008, 16:06: Message edited by: LQ ]
 

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Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
Thanks, Cyprian - I stand corrected!
 

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Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
The vigils referred to in copies of the Missal before 1962 and certainly before the mid 1950s would be Masses celebrated on the day previous to an important Feast.(There would not be any Masses after 1pm latest., at that time. )Often these days would be Fast days also (Christmas eve was traditionally a Fast day and that is why those in 'Catholic' countries who have the main christmas meal on Christmas eve have it without meat - in central europe the christmas eve meal has as its main course carp)

As TT so rightly pointed out,the vigil Masses now are real Vigil Masses celebrated the evening before some major Feast days and for fulfilling the obligation these Masses are quite acceptable.

Surely there still remain some Octaves but they are not really called that....

the Octave of Christmas is Mary,mother of God
the Octave of Epiphany is celebrated on a sunday as the Baptism of Christ
the Octave of Easter is divine Mercy sunday
(and doesn't Easter have an Octave of Octaves culminating in Pentecost ?)
the Octave of the Assumption is the Queenship of Mary.

I know that all the changes to the missal are done with the permission of the pope and his name is attached to any document, but he doesn't just sit in the Vatican and decide to change the Missal if there is nothing good on tv. There are the decrees of the Sacred congregation for divine worship,whose decrees would only come into force if the pope gives his approval.
 

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Posted by New Yorker (# 9898) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Forthview:
....but he doesn't just sit in the Vatican and decide to change the Missal if there is nothing good on tv.

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quote:

---

The vigils referred to in copies of the Missal before 1962 and certainly before the mid 1950s would be Masses celebrated on the day previous to an important Feast.(There would not be any Masses after 1pm latest., at that time. )Often these days would be Fast days also

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quote:

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To enhance the the solemnity of the Feast of the Immacualte Conception of our Blessed Lady, Pope Leo XIII, enjoined that its eve should be set apart as a Vigil, or day of liturgical preparation for the keeping of the festival.

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quote:

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Its eve should be set apart as a Vigil, or day of liturgical preparation for the keeping of the festival.

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quote:

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Originally posted by LQ:
Well, it was Our Lady of Guadalupe today.

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And her Expectation--in some places--on the eighteenth.
 

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
Gosh! I didn't know about the Expectation of Our lady, which seems a very appropriate feast, but seldom observed nowadays it seems.

This guy's web blog has a really good bit about it.

I wonder if anyone here will be going to a mass for that day?
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Our Lady is traditionally the theme of the readings for the Fourth Sunday in Advent, IIRC. The Roman rite, at any rate, has Luke's account of the Annunciation as the Gospel reading.

Ian J.
 

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
I came across this Novena and icon on the idea of Our lady of Advent. Click here.

And here is a great introduction to the Feast of the Expectation of Our lady, written by a priest. It ends:

The Holy Virgin Mary, “Our Lady of Expectation”, is a great educator of the Christian family. Christmas is a family celebration. We all want to be home for Christmas. She teaches us how to love and enjoy our own humanity and the humanity of her Son, we celebrate on Christmas Day. Maranatha! Come, Lord Jesus!
 

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Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :
 
The Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe as observed at my parish (Catholic, Latin Rite):

The celebrations began yesterday on the eve of the feast. A novena was observed in the parish and ended yesterday with a gathering of parish groups and the rest of the faithful for an evening procession through the neighborhood. I am told attendance was about 2000.

Celbrations continued today, beginning with the singing of Las Mañanitas this morning at 4 AM, soon followed by Mass which was celbrated by a priest and at least 2 deacons (I couldn't see clearly from where I stood) in the pre-dawn darkness. The Mass was held outdoors under a tent set up in the parking lot because our church building is too small to hold all the faithful. I'd estimate attendance at around at least 2000, probably more and it nearly filled the parking lot. In past years I've seen it even more full.

Music was lead by by a mariachi , two kinds of incense were used*, Aztec dancers led the Presentation of the Gifts, and several prayers and the psalm response was chanted. The first reading was the "Woman clothed with the Sun" passage from Revelation and the Gospel was the Visitation passage from St. Luke. You can see the readings at this link . The homily was pretty good and touched on the motherhood of the Blessed Virgin, Christ Our Savior, and our need to imitate St. Juan Diego as evangelizers, among other things.

Following Mass people gathered for free champurrado (a chocolate drink) and pan dulce (Mexican sweet bread). A business owner gave out free tamales in fulfillment of a vow he made. Just oustide the parish grounds street vendors sold more food & drink as well as flowers and religious articles. Roses and candles filled the space in front of the shrine underneath the tent and in front of the permanent outdoor shrine we have to the Virgin. The roses will soon fill the indoor shrine we have as well.

There was another Mass at noon today and this evening the celebrations will continue with more music and singing and another Mass which will probably be done much the same way as this morning. Since it's a Friday night I bet attendance will be huge. More food will be given out and roses will be blessed and given to the faithful to take home. The outdoor shrine will surely be ablaze with candles. Next week begin the Posadas .

* we had regular "church" incense and and the dancers used copal , a resin that's been used in religious ceremonies since pre-hispanic times.
 

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Posted by SeraphimSarov (# 4335) on :
 
Pancho,

thank you for a wonderful description of this Glorious Feast! Wish I could have been in your parish for Las Mananitas!
 

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
Yes, Pancho that was fab. Lovely to hear about. Great that the day wasn't just about liturgy but also about celebrations - special food etc.

Is anyone observing the Feast of the Expectation of Our Lady at their church, and if so how?
 

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Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 
I really really meant to go to Las Mañanitas... honestly... but I slept through them.

Mass in the evening was great though. No incense, but we did have mariachis and a new image of Nuestra Señora de Guadalupe to bless. We had a procession with it at the end and laid roses in front of it. We had all the good songs, too: Las Apariciones Guadalupanas and Adiós O Virgen de Guadalupe.
 

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Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
After the pope's outing on 8th December he had another special treat today on 3rd Sunday of Advent - namely to bless the 'bambinelli'- small figures of the Baby Jesus to be put into cribs/creches at Christmas.

Thousands of children from various parishes of Rome came to St Peter's square to have them blessed at midday by the holy Father.

Trying to link this with Feasts of Mary (who was after all involved with the birth of Jesus) it reminds me that in this time the children of Rome come to the church of Santa Maria in Aracoeli to recite poems in honour of the child Jesus. This used to be done in front of a famous stauette of the Bambino Gesu until it was stolen from the church a few years ago and I don't think that it has been seen since.
 

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
Thanks Forthview, How do you know these lovely customs - you are so good at them

It would be absolutley fab to see a photo of the Holy Father doing this lovely blessing. I had a Google of it but nothing came up.
 

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Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
The holy Father was standing at his window overlooking St Peter's square at his regular sunday blessing and the children and others were down below holding up the figures.

I am no use with computers etc but the midday angelus is broadcast each sunday by Rai 1 tv plus it is carried on various other Csatholic channels. I would imagine that EWTN broadcast it.
 

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Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
Laetare, if you want to see the blessing of the 'bambinelli' ,click on www.ktotv.com and then look for 'nos emissions' and click on 'angelus a rome' and you will have the ceremony. The pope will speak mainly in Italian, but there will be a running commentary in French, until the end whent the pope speaks in French,English ,German,Spanish and Polish,before returning to Italian.
 

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
Thank you Forthview for that. I tried what you said but it wouldn't play thorugh real player and said I had to download something else and I'm always frightened to do that. Maybe someone can point to photos of the event.

How long has the Holy Father been doing this blessing? It must be great if you live in Rome and can just go along and see this.

On the Feast of the Expectation of Our Lady. I can't find it in my copy of the English Missal. I have read it may be mainly a Spanish feast, and is like the Annunciation in Advent. That seems a great idea, to remind people of the Annunciation and Our Lady waiting - expecting - in Advent.
 

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Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
I think it would depend on when the Missal was printed.Is it a roman missal or an anglican missal ? In pre Vat. 2 'daily' missals you would probably find the feast mentioned. In nmore modern missals the advent feria would probably take precedence.
sorry you didn't have joy with the link.i also get worried about pressing the wrong buttons !!
 

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
Still can't find 'propers' for the feast tomorrow of Our Lady of Expectation, I've tried online but maybe not hard enough and they ain't in my Missal!
It seems a shame beacuse it seems so right to keep it.

But I have found this lovely little piece by Deacon John. From what I can make out he is a RC Deacon of the old school.

His piece is here.
 

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Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 
I only keep feasts that the Universal Church proposes should be kept - I don't go round hunting for obscure regional celebrations.
 

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
I thought there was a votive of Our Lady of Expectation though that could be kept, but maybe not.
 

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Posted by Magic Wand (# 4227) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Laetare:
Still can't find 'propers' for the feast tomorrow of Our Lady of Expectation, I've tried online but maybe not hard enough and they ain't in my Missal!
It seems a shame beacuse it seems so right to keep it.

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quote:

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Triple Tiara sticks in the mud:
I only keep feasts that the Universal Church proposes should be kept - I don't go round hunting for obscure regional celebrations.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Magic Wand:

quote:

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Originally posted by Laetare:
Still can't find 'propers' for the feast tomorrow of Our Lady of Expectation, I've tried online but maybe not hard enough and they ain't in my Missal!
It seems a shame beacuse it seems so right to keep it.

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The propers for the Feast of the Expectation of the B.V.M. are found in the aliquibus locis section of the missal. The only edition of the English Missal to print that in full was the second, in 1923. The 1958 edition only prints the Masses proper to England and Wales and Scotland (but not Ireland); I don't believe that Our Lady's Expectation was ever generally kept in any of those places. This was not true of the U.S., there the feast occurred on a number of local calendars.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Hart:
Our Lady of Guadalupe's propers shouldn't be hard to find! She was declared Patroness of the Americas by Pius XII. Her day was raised to the rank of a feast in all countries of the Americas in 1999. The breviary has a collect for her and the Mass propers can be found in the Sacramentary Supplement (1994).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Laetare:
I don't think Anglicans are very good at keeping local Mary feasts so I don't think many US Anglicans will be marking Our Lady of Guadeloupe. But, hey, maybe someone here will tell me I'm wrong on that one.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
Today is the Feast of the Expectation of Our lady.

Has anyone been to a mass for the feast today?

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quote:

---

it gives me real pleasure to renew the beautiful tradition of the Blessing of the Christ Child figurines, the miniature statues of the Baby Jesus to be placed in the manger.
I address you in particular, dear boys and girls of Rome, who have come this morning with your Baby Jesus figurines that I now bless

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
Now thats interesting Magic W. I thought the propers were like those of the annunciation. What colour was used - White or Purple?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Laetare:
I see he gave an Angelus address for Immacualte Conception - so its not just Sundays he appears to recite the angelus then. I didn't know he came out at other times too.

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What? The pope has come out? Joy to all LGBT Catholics"!
 

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
Thank you Forthview, once again v helpful. He also says it publically on Easter Monday doesn't he?

The Holy Father recites publically wherever he is - is that right? Like in July he said it on a Sunday he was in Sydney. Now on that day was the Angelus publically said by some body else in St Peters square in Rome? Does the Pope say it publically wherever he is every Sunday even if he is on holiday?

That point you made about Ascension in the vatican and in Italy interested me. I thought the Pope was Bishop of Rome, so dopes that mean the Vatican is not in the diocese of Rom,e - and that the Diocese of rome is keeping a different calendar to the vatican at times.

I know this isn't quite on topic here, but its v. interesting.
 

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Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 
Here are the photos you are looking for Laetare, courtesy of L'Osservatore Romano. (Vatican site - can take a while to load!)
 

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Posted by Prosfonesis (# 1158) on :
 
It loaded lickety-split for me. You should hector British Telecom, or whomever, to replace that soup can 'n' string InterTubes connection with fiber.
 

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Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 
It seemed to slow down at times, but is fast just now.

But buggerations, it's one of those sites that doesn't link to the specified page! Grrrr.

So here's what you do:

Click on the bottom left link that says: Giorno per giorno l'attività di Papa Benedetto XVI documentata dai fotografi de L'Osservatore Romano.

Then keeping going down the pages till you get to about page 96 (at time of writing - it is bound to change by tomorrow). That will show the pictures of kids holding up assorted bambinos.

Or probably more simply: click on "Ricerca Semplice" in the left margin. When the page comes up bring down the dates next to "Data scatto: dal" and call up 14-12-2008 and again at "al" the same date. Then click the button which says "Avvia ricerca". That will bring up the same pictures.
 

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Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 


Or click right at the top of the page for "English version" - which I just spotted - you could probably then work it all out for yourself.
 

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Posted by cg (# 14332) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Magic Wand:

quote:

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Originally posted by Laetare:
Today is the Feast of the Expectation of Our lady.

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The propers are quite similar to the votive Mass of Our Lady in Advent.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
Any way what it says is in a kalendar and says the colour for the Expectation is Violet, not white.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
I don't think Anglicans are very good at keeping local Mary feasts so I don't think many US Anglicans will be marking Our Lady of Guadeloupe.

---

I know there are many countries where it still isn't well known I'm not sure you can exactly call the feast day of Our Lady of Guadalupe a local feast. As Hart mentioned her day was raised to rank of Feast in all the countries of (the) America(s) in 1999. According to Adherents.org , of the 10 countries with the most Catholics, 5 are in the Western Hemisphere including the top 3 (Brazil, Mexico, and the U.S). According to Wikipedia after the Vatican the shrine receives the most pilgrims, more than Fatima or Lourdes.

There's a connection between Our Lady of Guadalupe and Our Lady of the Expectation in that the Virgin of Guadalupe is depicted pregnant.


A few years ago the blog "The Inn at the End of the World" posted an excerpt from Dom Gueranger's "Liturgical Year" about the Feast of the Expectation. You can read it here . A commenter at the New Liturgical Movement blog mentioned that the feast was also included in the old Carmelite rite.
 

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Posted by Prosfonesis (# 1158) on :
 
It took a little digging, but I remembered that St. Michael's and All Angels, Tuscon, had an image of Our Lady of Guadalupe. It's hard to believe that there was no mass in her honor on the day, especially as they are blessed to have a daily mass.

[ 22. December 2008, 03:32: Message edited by: Prosfonesis ]
 

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Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :
 
Yesterday's Mass was as Marian as it gets at the Church of the Nearest Sunday. The collect, secret, and postcommunion in the Book of Alternative Services all explicitly recalled Our Lady. The homilist wove the First Lesson, the Canticle (the Magnificat, in lieu of a psalm), and the Gospel together, though he stopped short of identifying Mary as the Ark of the Covenant. The choir sang the Ave Maria to Victoria during Communion, on the chancel steps.

Setting: Missa Quarti Toni by Victoria (but Sanctus to Merbecke).

Hymns:

Introit: "Hail to the Lord's anointed" (Crüger)
Offertory: "Tell out, my soul" (Woodlands)
Communion: "The God whom earth and sea and sky" (O Amor Quam Ecstaticus, which I'd not heard before)
Final: "People, look east! The time is near" (Besançon)
 

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
January 1st is the Solemnity of Mary the Mother of God in some places.

Was wondering if thats what you are observing at your church on that day, and if so in what way?
 

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Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :
 
A Solemnity is a feast of the highest rank in the Latin Church, so it'll be a solemnity in many places . We're having Masses on the day and the eve of the feast.
 

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Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :
 
Last year, I attended a Sung Latin Mass (ordinary form) at the Toronto Oratory for the Solemnity of Mary, Mother of God. This year, I've got a feeling I'll be too hungover so to do. I will, however, be keeping the Eve of the Circumcision with a Te Deum and Festal Mass in an Anglican parish church.
 

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Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 
It's a HDO in the US, but not in England and Wales (a holy day of opportunity instead, I guess). Given that I'm in England for the holidays and plan on being hung-over, I'll probably just say my office.
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Our little place is having a Mass at 10.00am* on Thursday, at which most members of the Cell of OLW will be present, along with some visitors, I hope.

Last year we had an attendance of 21 (which fills our Lady Chapel nicely), but with a lot of illness around at the moment I am not realistically expecting more than 15 or so (though I am quite happy to be pleasantly surprised!).

It will be a Solemn Low Mass with Hymns ( Ye who own the faith of Jesus, Immaculate Mary (three verses) and perhaps one other).

Ian J.

* Yes, I know - middle of the bl**dy night......I shall suggest that we tack at least another half-hour on to that time next year, if not more.....
 

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Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :
 
10am Thursday is our habitual weekly weekday Eucharist, which will be kept as usual this week - as the Naming & Circumcision of OLJC, it says here. However, Mother Retired-NSM is celebrating while Management is away, so it may well get a Marian slant. It is held in the Lady Chapel, and I will dress herself up and add a few extra blue votives.
 

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 

quote:

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It will be a Solemn Low Mass with Hymns

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by multipara:
We celebrated Mary , the mother of God at St Frank's this morning; very glad the solemnity of the bris has faded into well-deserved obscurity outside of the EF.

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quote:

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If it is a hard-core Triddie church which follows the 1962 calendar, then it would be the Big Circ. If a NO Mass said in Latin, then ,Mary the Mother of God would be the go.

There were ton of Marian feasts in the old calendar, and offhand I can't recall one specifically relating to the mother hood of Mary. However the local Trid ( Ecclesia Dei not the Lefevbre-ites) community here in Sydney calls itself the Community of the Maternal Heart of Mary, so anything is possible.

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quote:

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Our Lady, Queen and Mother is 22nd August, isn't it?

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On the current kalendar it is, but in later years of the previous one it was 22 August. (Prior to that the date was the feast of the Immaculate Heart of Mary.) The Queenship of the BVM had been on 31 May, but was moved to August when the Visitation was moved from 2 July to 31 may.

Care for a scorecard?
 

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Posted by multipara (# 2918) on :
 
Funny about all of that; the Marian Missal someone gave me as a conformation gift in 1962 specifically mentioned the Circ on 01 Jan...mind you, we Antipodeans were always a bit behind, thank the Lord. My paternal gran and her sister kept solo-ing during Sund ay Mass right up to post-WW1; mind, you they WERE in Broken Hills which was light years away from Rome ( Adelaide being the nearest rail link till 1920).

Now you remind me, there were a slew of Marian feasts in October; I seem to recall Sr John ( of God-a good patron saint as she was completely mad) PBVM telling us 6th graders that Oct is the month of Our Lady).

They've all been subsumed by the Guardian Angels for me, as 02 Oct is the birthday of both firstborn (son) and #1 daughter.

(just by the by)

m
 

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Posted by multipara (# 2918) on :
 
Double-post alert:

A pity about the Viz being transferred; my 87 year old aunt was baptised Mary Elizabeth (after her 2 grandothers) on 03 July, the day after her birth in 1921. And no, she was in no danger of death, there just happened to be a mission going on up the road at Mary Immaculate & St Charles Borromeo Waverley ( in Sinny) and the matron of the hospital took the day old babe up there to be baptised while my grandmother lay in bed recovering from 30 hours of labour and a forceps delivery.

I recall 30-odd years ago that Mary was mildly pissed off about having her combined birthday and feast day interfered with.

m
 

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Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :
 

quote:

---

Funny about all of that; the Marian Missal someone gave me as a conformation gift in 1962 specifically mentioned the Circ on 01 Jan...mind you, we Antipodeans were always a bit behind, thank the Lord. My paternal gran and her sister kept solo-ing during Sund ay Mass right up to post-WW1; mind, you they WERE in Broken Hills which was light years away from Rome ( Adelaide being the nearest rail link till 1920).

Now you remind me, there were a slew of Marian feasts in October; I seem to recall Sr John ( of God-a good patron saint as she was completely mad) PBVM telling us 6th graders that Oct is the month of Our Lady).

They've all been subsumed by the Guardian Angels for me, as 02 Oct is the birthday of both firstborn (son) and #1 daughter.

---

Yes, but if you look at the missal's imprimatur date, you will see that it is no later than early 1960.

May is the month of Our Lady, while October is the month of the holy rosary. Both seem to abound with Marian devotions.

That was an interesting anecdote about the dear departed relative. These stories seemed so common in days gone by....
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Can I ask for some help re Marian feasts? Our place has a Cell of the Holy House of Our Lady of Walsingham, and I am trying to compile a list of services we should be holding this year as an aide memoire to the members (the regular Cell Mass is on the first Saturday each month, BTW).

So far, I can think of:
1 January (Mary, Mother of God)
2 February (Candlemas - which we shall transfer to Saturday 7 February)
25 March (Annunciation)
31 May (Visitation - but this day is Pentecost Sunday, so could we transfer it to the next Saturday, or have it the day before?)
15 August (Assumption)
8 September (Nativity of BVM)
15 October (Translation of Image - OLW feast of obligation!)
8 December (Immaculate Conception of BVM)

To me, that seems quite enough to be going on with, but are there any others I've missed? We're C of E, BTW, but using the Roman calendar and rite.

Ian J.
 

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Posted by Ceremoniar (# 13596) on :
 
Must Haves:

Day after Sacred Heart: Immaculate Heart of Mary
5 Aug Dedication of St. Mary Major
22 Aug Queenship of BVM
15 Sept Our Lady of Sorrows
7 Oct Holy Rosary
21 Nov Presentation of BVM


Maybe also:

11 Feb O.L. Lourdes
13 May O.L. Fatima
27 June O.L Perpetual Help
16 July O.L. Mount Carmel

[ 02. January 2009, 18:41: Message edited by: Ceremoniar ]
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Ooer! I wish I hadn't asked!

If only we had a daily Mass.........

Ian J.
 

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Posted by multipara (# 2918) on :
 
Ceremoniar, if you are talking about my "dear departed relative" (whose birthday is 02 July) she is very much in the land of the living, thanks, if a little on the vague side.

As for the imprimatur of the Marian Missal; no way of looking since it was consigned to the fire many many years ago!

m
 

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Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
In days of Latin Mass the Rosary was a popular devotion for the 'lay faithful'.
The Feast of the rosary on 7th October often had an 'external solemnity' on the sunday nearest 7th.

Most parishes here had a daily recitation of the Rosary before the Blessed Sacrament exposed followed by simple Benediction.
 

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Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
Bishops Finger what about the Feast of Our Lady of Walsingham itself? (September 24th). I hope your cell observes that.
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Oops.



September 24th duly added to the list........

Ian J.
 

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Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
31 May (Visitation - but this day is Pentecost Sunday, so could we transfer it to the next Saturday, or have it the day before?)

We're C of E, BTW, but using the Roman calendar and rite.

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quote:

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O Lord, give us a perpetual fear as well as love of Thy Holy Name, for Thou never ceasest to govern those Thou foundest upon the strength of Thy love. Who livest and reignest world without end.Amen.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ceremoniar:

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If it is a hard-core Triddie church which follows the 1962 calendar, then it would be the Big Circ. If a NO Mass said in Latin, then ,Mary the Mother of God would be the go.

There were ton of Marian feasts in the old calendar, and offhand I can't recall one specifically relating to the mother hood of Mary. However the local Trid ( Ecclesia Dei not the Lefevbre-ites) community here in Sydney calls itself the Community of the Maternal Heart of Mary, so anything is possible.

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Actually, the feast of the Circumcision is not on the 1962 kalendar. Today is simply styled the Octave Day of the Nativity, which was the 1960 reform.

The feast of the Motherhood (or Maternity, depending on the translation) of the BVM was on 11 October. This feast grew up in the baroque period, and was set aside when the Solemnity of Mary, Mother of God was re-introduced in 1970.

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So is this feast officially kept then by those who follow the old Latin mass - rather than 1st January as Mother of God?

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The feast of the Motherhood (or Maternity, depending on the translation) of the BVM was on 11 October. This feast grew up in the baroque period, and was set aside when the Solemnity of Mary, Mother of God was re-introduced in 1970.

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I thought Pius XII instituted the Maternity of the BVM in 1931 as a version of Mary, Mother of God? That's hardly baroque to me.

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Those feasts then didn't last very long then in the Church on those dates.

But if you are keeping the old calendar as a Latin mass like is now allowed do you keep these old dates - and are allowed to officially?

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Can I ask if those who follow the 1962 calendar keep to the 1962 fasting rules for Communion ?

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Originally posted by Laetare:
Does anyone know of the Our Lady of the Cenacle devotion, and where it is popular and how it can about? Its about this time of the year.

I'd like to be pointed to an image of Our lady of the cenacle.

Can anyone help on this one, please.

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