Thread: Eccles: Germaphobes and Communion Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Angel Wrestler (# 13673) on :
 
I've heard from my parishioners on numerous occasions a queasiness about spreading germs via celebrating Holy Communion. One person even suggested the celbrants wear those disposable serving gloves they use in cafeterias.

It doesn't matter the form - common loaf served by a celebrant or pinched off by a worshiper (which I don't do), or wafers or little squares served or picked up. I hear about "we don't know where those hands have been."

As for a common cup - holy cow! Even though you only dip a tiny portion of the bread or wafer into the cup, they object to the germiness.

It's only been 2 churches that have these issues, and I understand that there are a lot of elderly people in those churches and they don't want to get sick, but I wonder how wide-spread this germaphobia is.

I've compromised and I keep a bottle of hand sanitizer underneath the pulpit and rub it on my hands right before serving. Then we use the wee cuppies for the juice so people just take one themselves. I prefer the common cup, but Jesus doesn't say how to do it; he just says to do it.

How do you all address the sanitation issue in your churches?

[ 29. August 2009, 10:54: Message edited by: dj_ordinaire ]
 

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Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
I've been waiting for this thread to turn up.

It's my contention that spreading germs via the Elements is proof that Christ is truly human.



More seriously, there has been a tendency in the United Church of Canada to ditch the traditional Wee Cuppies and bread cubes for a loaf and common cup. (I cannot bring myself to utter the word "Chalice".)

Raging liturgical innovators.

Some Elders on the Session were concerned that our numerous Octogenarian Brigade would catch something awful. This isn't hypochondria since I have a family member who is severely asthmatic, and catches peumonia at the drop of a hat.

The Session moved us to Intinction.

Sorry, that still doesn't take care of it. Food Safety 101. People are dirtier then you think.



So back we went to Wee Cuppies and Bread Cubes.

Before anyone raises the point, no, we don't have an Altar Rail and we don't have the Ministers or Elders place the elements on a communicant's tongue.
 

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Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
At my church a bottle of hand sanitizer is set discretely off to the side, which the celebrant uses before approaching the altar to celebrate Communion. As for the cup, get over it- if you're that afraid of germs, just take the bread.

Zach
 

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Posted by Hart (# 4991) on :
 
Alcohol in a metal cup is very unlikely to spread germs. The bread is the only thing people should be worrying about. If it's carefully placed in the hands or on the tongue of the recipient by the minister, the only person you need to worry about being germy is the minister. Hand sanitizer might be sensible. People tearing bits off a loaf sounds like the only real possible source of recipient to recipient spreading.

TBH, shaking hands is probably much more risky.

[ 09. October 2008, 21:01: Message edited by: Hart ]
 

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Posted by §Andrew (# 9313) on :
 
There are many many Orthodox Christians, and not just in this century, but throughout the centuries. Many are sick. There are many hospitals. Everyone receives communion from the same Holy Chalice, using the same Holy Spoon. And at the end, the priest receives everything that is left, using the same Holy Spoon.

"Behold, I walk towards Divine Communion
O Creator, let me not be burnt by communicating,
for Thou art Fire, consuming the unworthy
but cleanse me from every spot."

"Be awed, O man, when you see the deifying Blood
It is coal that burns the unworthy
The Body is God's and it both deifies me and nourishes me
It deifies the spirit and wondrously nourishes the mind."
 

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
If you read the clergy appointments section in The Church Times, where it tells you the age of clergy who have died, not how very old most of them are. They have been doing the ablutions but have not died an early death.
 

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Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
The only time I've been concerned was when I was chalice bearing at a funeral with many non-church-goers in attendance. Most of them, having watched someone else, held out the wafer for me to intinct and place on their tongues. This works well with people who are used to it. But with this bunch, many of them practically licked my fingers. And it was the height of the flu season. As soon as Communion was over I washed thoroughly in the Sacristy.

During cold and flu season I'm more concerned about the spread of germs during the Peace than at Communion.
 

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Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
If you're using something strong enough, surely it cuts down on germs?!

[No grape guice!]
 

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Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
During cold and flu season I'm more concerned about the spread of germs during the Peace than at Communion.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Zach82:
At my church a bottle of hand sanitizer is set discretely off to the side, which the celebrant uses before approaching the altar to celebrate Communion. As for the cup, get over it- if you're that afraid of germs, just take the bread.

Zach

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
And who are protestants to suddenly proclaim that the Risen Christ isn't entirely present under one species only?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Angel Wrestler:
How do you all address the sanitation issue in your churches?

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We don't address it as far as I know. Or at any rate we don't discuss it. I've never heard it raised once in church. The only people who talk about it seem to be online.

In the CofE its common cup, real wine (always), and either real bread (mostly in more evangelical churches) or wafers (at the higher end).

You put the bread in the communicants hand (maybe directly into the mouth in the very most candle-powered places), intinction is very rare but not unknown.

You either hand the cup to the communicant (lower down the candle and MOTR) or tip it into their mouth (more common at the catholic end of things end). Each time you rotate it a little and wip the place the previous person sipped with a cloth.

Because, er, well, that's we way we do it.
 

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Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :
 
Thorough washing of the hands with soap and water for at least 20 secs will shift MRSA and other bacteria. Alcohol hand cleaners won't do this. To time the minimum of 20 secs, sing the first verse and chorus of Yankee Doodle to yourself. All this I learnt in the NHS!

You know, I just never think about catching anything from receiving Communion. I'm there to encounter Jesus. The implications of Holy Communion are so immense that they completely overwhelm any possible worries about "sanitation".

I do acknowledge OTOH the possibility of transmitting germs if I am sick. If I've got active symptoms of a cold, etc I decline the Chalice and usually will receive the Host in my hands rather than on my tongue at such times. Yes, this is a sort of disconnect and a logical inconsistency. I don't think that I will become sick by receiving the Eucharist, but I don't want to enhance anyone else's risks if I am sensibly ill. I really doubt, however, that anyone gets sick with human maladies from receiving the Eucharist.
 

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Posted by ORGANMEISTER (# 6621) on :
 
I wouldn't worry about spreading germs via the common cup. Wine has been used for millenia to clean and dress wounds, the alcohol having strong antiseptic properties. I'm sure the people back then didn't understand that, but they knew it worked.

We had a Pastor who was quite the germaphobe. He would discreetly slip into the sacristy during the Offertory and wipe his hands with and alcohol wipe, like the ones your Dr. uses to cleanse the skin before you get an injection. After the distribution he again disappeared into the sacristy and used another wipe on his his hands......but then he didn't like to be touched and he avoided touching people. He favored patting people on the back as opposed to a hand shake.
 

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Posted by Zach82 (# 3208) on :
 
I'm no germaphobe, but let's be fair. Lord knows if you're in a crowded bar you don't grab a random beer off the counter and take a nip. But us Christians do not only that, but take a nip from the cup that 150 some odd people have used. Whatever the antiseptic properties of silver, it's certainly best to just not think about the dozens of moist, germy lips that have slobbered on that cup you're sucking on next Sunday.
 

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Posted by §Andrew (# 9313) on :
 
I have been reading with great interest (shock would probably be more appropriate)... Seriously, am I the only one here to think that it doesn't make any sense at all to think in these terms for the Body and Blood of Christ? I mean, if I was to depend on silver and alcohol, I wouldn't bother with the whole thing. It's unthinkable for me that this discussion even takes place...
 

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Posted by moonlitdoor (# 11707) on :
 
I don't understand Andrew's post unless there is some idea that it is somehow impossible for the body of Christ to be mixed with anything else.

As far as I can see, add some germs to the body of Christ and you would have body of Christ plus germs. Christ would have his effect on the recipient and the germs would have their effect.
 

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Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Zach82:
I'm no germaphobe, but let's be fair. Lord knows if you're in a crowded bar you don't grab a random beer off the counter and take a nip. But us Christians do not only that, but take a nip from the cup that 150 some odd people have used. Whatever the antiseptic properties of silver, it's certainly best to just not think about the dozens of moist, germy lips that have slobbered on that cup you're sucking on next Sunday.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ORGANMEISTER:
I wouldn't worry about spreading germs via the common cup. Wine has been used for millenia to clean and dress wounds, the alcohol having strong antiseptic properties. I'm sure the people back then didn't understand that, but they knew it worked.

We had a Pastor who was quite the germaphobe. He would discreetly slip into the sacristy during the Offertory and wipe his hands with and alcohol wipe, like the ones your Dr. uses to cleanse the skin before you get an injection. After the distribution he again disappeared into the sacristy and used another wipe on his his hands......but then he didn't like to be touched and he avoided touching people. He favored patting people on the back as opposed to a hand shake.

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quote:

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Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
As far as I can see, add some germs to the body of Christ and you would have body of Christ plus germs.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ken:
Each time you rotate it a little and wip the place the previous person sipped with a cloth.

Because, er, well, that's we way we do it.

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quote:

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Which is why everything needs to get done reverently, keeping in mind the full implications of what the Eucharist means. Receiving unworthy can be destructive... Although, for many cases God is probably just not effecting any change whatsoever at the bread and wine for the shake of the recipient... because we have become indifferent and reckless with the most holy things.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:

quote:

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Originally posted by ORGANMEISTER:
I wouldn't worry about spreading germs via the common cup. Wine has been used for millenia to clean and dress wounds, the alcohol having strong antiseptic properties. I'm sure the people back then didn't understand that, but they knew it worked.

We had a Pastor who was quite the germaphobe. He would discreetly slip into the sacristy during the Offertory and wipe his hands with and alcohol wipe, like the ones your Dr. uses to cleanse the skin before you get an injection. After the distribution he again disappeared into the sacristy and used another wipe on his his hands......but then he didn't like to be touched and he avoided touching people. He favored patting people on the back as opposed to a hand shake.

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Pastor Asperger?

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Hostly biretta on

Kazimieras, using the word "Asperger" as an insult sails perilously close to "all the other negative -isms" referred to in C1. Knock it off, please.

/Hosting off
 

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Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :
 
It wasn't intended as an insult, O Politically Correct One. It was a comment on the apparent eccentricities of the pastor. There's a difference. How about not over-reacting?

[ 10. October 2008, 16:16: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]
 

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Posted by beachpsalms (# 4979) on :
 
SPK - I actually don't know anything about a notion that communion ought to be received in both forms.

Depending on where I'm receiving, that would be impossible for me - red wine, for instance, will close up my throat and have me reaching for my epi-pen.

I would venture that Christ's presence is among us when we celebrate communion - whether it be with leavened/unleavened bread; wine; juice; silver; clay; or stryofoam serving dishes. Surely the working of the Spirit is not restricted by our taste in plate?

Someone told me the other day that they thought there was some correlation between the cups and trays family style communion in UCCan churches and the Spanish Flu epidemic in the last century.
 

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Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
It has been my experience that the UCCan expectation is that Communion is to be served in both forms. It's not something we really think about, it's just something we do. This is our tradition and norm. AIUI we get such notions from from our Presbyterian heritage and the Kirk. They didn't just appear out of thin air, and our Eucharistic Theology is one part of us which screams Presbyterianism.

You are right about being picky. It's just that in my experience most congregations go for risen, everyday bread. I'd venture a minister trying to use wafers would face unrest in the pews. We have a number of wafer and unleavened bread enthusiasts around here, and since I'm not one of them, I say so.

The vanities we bring to Christ's Table.

Speaking of the Spanish Flu, the United Church didn't exist at the time. That flu epidemic was in 1919, and Union didn't happen until 1925. I believe the Presbyterians were Wee Cuppie swingers, the Methodists were a mixed bag of Wee Cuppies and Common Cups (look for an Altar Rail), and I don't know what the Congregationalists were doing. Given that most churches did communion at most monthly at the time, and more often quarterly, I think your friend's argument would need some serious statistics to back it up.
 

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Posted by beachpsalms (# 4979) on :
 
I don't know about serious stats, but it occured to me that I could look for a dedication date on the plate when we have it out this weekend.

Because.. funnily enough considering the thread - we didn't have communion last week as I was too sick to officiate.
 

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Posted by John Ellis (# 14063) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by §Andrew:
I have been reading with great interest (shock would probably be more appropriate)... Seriously, am I the only one here to think that it doesn't make any sense at all to think in these terms for the Body and Blood of Christ? I mean, if I was to depend on silver and alcohol, I wouldn't bother with the whole thing. It's unthinkable for me that this discussion even takes place...

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quote:

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Leo said:

Maybe but no rotating please. When we do the ablutions, we wash everything that has come into contact with the precious blood and that is easier if only one part of the chalice, above the cross or jewel, has been used.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
It wasn't intended as an insult, O Politically Correct One. It was a comment on the apparent eccentricities of the pastor. There's a difference. How about not over-reacting?

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How about either taking this discussion to the Styx or offline? You know better.
 

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Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :
 
I know that for a little while we used hand sanitizer at the request of one of the servers. However, most of the congregation did not feel the need and at least one member of the congregation was quite displeased and felt she could not take communion until the practice stopped. So, it did. (She might be a bit of a bully but as intincters, I think most of us prefered intact symbolism to perfect neatness anyway.)
 

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Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :
 
Interestingly enough, there is one of those hospital type wall mounted hand sanitizers in our sanctuary. LEMs all avail themselves of it. There is another just outside the vestry door, which I presume is used by the altar party before they process down the aisle at the opening antiphon/hymn.

During the SARs epidemic, the Archdiocese issued a directive stating that the passing of the peace amongst the congregation could be omitted. On Good Friday, Veneration of the Cross took place, but touching or kissing the Cross was not allowed.
 

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Posted by Lumpy da Moose (# 9038) on :
 
I never worry about it unless I, myself, am sick with something contagious. Which is rare. Then I will receive the bread only and pass by the cup. We, too, have a lot of elderly in our congregation and I wouldn't want to pass anything along.

I've never worried about catching anything while at communion, though I have been known to pass by the cup if a someone is obviously ill in the line ahead of me. Most (but not all ) parents are good about having children pass by the cup if they're snuffling and/or coughing.

I don't usually give a lot of thought to it. Though, as choristers, we usually go up for Eucharist first. But-- our current director now wants us to go last so we can support the congregation singing the communion songs. Really though-- I have more important things to worry about.
 

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Posted by Campbellite (# 1202) on :
 
Has there EVER been a documented case of an epidemic spread via a chalice?

Inquiring minds want to know.
 

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Posted by ORGANMEISTER (# 6621) on :
 
Lietuvos was just making a joke. That's pretty obvious. Lighten up a bit!
 

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Posted by ChaliceGirl (# 13656) on :
 
FWIW:

http://articles.latimes.com/2005/jan/01/local/me-beliefs1
 

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Posted by Prosfonesis (# 1158) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by §Andrew:
I have been reading with great interest (shock would probably be more appropriate)... Seriously, am I the only one here to think that it doesn't make any sense at all to think in these terms for the Body and Blood of Christ? I mean, if I was to depend on silver and alcohol, I wouldn't bother with the whole thing. It's unthinkable for me that this discussion even takes place...

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quote:

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Originally posted by §Andrew:
I have been reading with great interest (shock would probably be more appropriate)... Seriously, am I the only one here to think that it doesn't make any sense at all to think in these terms for the Body and Blood of Christ? I mean, if I was to depend on silver and alcohol, I wouldn't bother with the whole thing. It's unthinkable for me that this discussion even takes place...

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Well the discussion of it has taken place, is taking place, under whatever nomenclature selected and you have, in fact, lowered yourself to join it, or am I mistaken?

It also seems that you regard the Holy Communion as the result of some kind of divine magic trick, the confection of which obliterates all harmful pathogens, and the discussion of which is beneath you, though you are very much here and dicussing it with some considerable condescenion ... ... Or again am I mistaken?
 

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Posted by Davy Wavy Morrison (# 12241) on :
 
I admit to having it both ways. At our service we have the choice of the common chalice (chalices, actually, so not completely common) or little cups. If I am playing the organ I am the second or third to drink, so I use the common cup. If I am fiftieth or more, I use the small cups (which have the disadvantage of containing diluted grape juice). In this way way, I am joining my fellow-worshippers in proclainming the Lord's death and they may get my germs (their chioce) but I don't get theirs.

Whatever one's views on the common cup, I think individual cups are far superior to intinction if hygiene is a concern. We should eat the bread and DRINK the wine. Communion in both kinds is central to Anglican belief.
 

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Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
...You do realize that I utterly reject the pronouncements of the Council of Trent to which you refer, and believe that the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper must consist of both elements? ...

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And yet you drink grape juice, instead of wine. (What Would Jesus Do?)

quote:

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Originally posted by Chalice Girl:
...Loving, the microbiologist, said the risk of infection is reduced because the chalice is wiped after each sip, the alcohol in the wine can kill germs and, unlike ceramic cups, the silver and gold used in most chalices don’t harbor microbes....

... But next she wanted to find out whether illnesses were caused by Communion. In 1997, she surveyed 681 people in New Jersey over a 10-week period and found no difference in illness rates among those who attended church and received Communion, those who attended church and didn’t receive Communion, and those who never attended church.

“This even held true for the participants who attended church and received the sacraments every single day during the 10 weeks,” she wrote. ...

...Many who take Communion believe science and God are at work to prevent disease....

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
Or again am I mistaken?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Your tradition, not mine. I'm not an Anglican.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mr. Rob:
It also seems that you regard the Holy Communion as the result of some kind of divine magic trick, the confection of which obliterates all harmful pathogens, and the discussion of which is beneath you, though you are very much here and dicussing it with some considerable condescenion ... ... Or again am I mistaken?

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Dunno about Andrew, Mr Rob, but, shorn of the somewhat deprecatory and sneering way in which you express it, something like that is precisely what I was saying.

And you spotlight his "considerable condescension"?!
 

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Posted by beachpsalms (# 4979) on :
 
Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras - Our denomination is less than a hundred years old, with Presbyterian, Congregationalist and Methodist roots. In my area, our older congregations are celebrating 150th anniversaries. It might not seem much to you, but the 19th century is pretty far back for us. (And we're not the most traditionalist denom you'd ever meet.)
 

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Posted by Prosfonesis (# 1158) on :
 

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John Ellis reminisces about the Good Ole Days:
That used to evoke from me an occasional brief tirade on the irreverence and lack of consideration involved in receiving the sacrament wearing glutinous and oily lipsticks, accompanied by a lurid, but not over-stated, description of the scum that could float on the surface of the consecrated wine as a consequence. I only had to do this every three or four years - most lipstick-wearers genuinely felt that this was an irreverence, but, beguiled by manufacturers' false assurances, really didn't think that their lipsticks could create this effect. But memories fade in time!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:

Please refer to my dear co-religionist beachpsalms second last post. She's heavily allergic to red wine. If you're going to say that white wine is OK, but grape juice is not, then you're splitting hairs.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Right, so should it be an alcoholic beverage or a red-coloured beverage? Where's my razor?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
That's my point, dj. You've gone for one interpretation, we've gone for another. You choose to emphasize the "wine" part, my church chooses to emphasize the "red, colour of blood" bit.

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Okay, I understand that. Although I still prefer 'our' interpretation (well, I would, wouldn't I!) because Christ took a cup of wine as used at Passover meals. He never mentioned the colour. It could well have been some sort of tawny colour, probably full of honeys and spices and things. Not being an expert in Middle Eastern bevvies of the first century AD, I don't know. So I would say that it is valid to assume that we 'ought' to be using wine - I still can't get my head round why colour enters into it.
 

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Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Prosfonesis:
Not relinquishing the chalice into the hand of the communicant

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Posted by Max. (# 5846) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by LQ:

quote:

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Originally posted by Prosfonesis:
Not relinquishing the chalice into the hand of the communicant

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Make that
We'll bang our heads together.


Max
 

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Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :
 
Head-bangers for Jesus?

 

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Posted by Liverpool fan (# 11424) on :
 
I have thought about this occasionally when I have served for a Priest who coughs into his hand at a period after I've washed his hands, well, fingers. I'm not aware of getting sick from the Sacrament, though.

Whether it's a question of faith, or not is something I don't know. What I do think is that the risk of picking up germs is less than one thinks.

I thought this thread was about those who don't like Germans when I looked at it.
 

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Posted by Cyprian (# 5638) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:

quote:

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Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
That's my point, dj. You've gone for one interpretation, we've gone for another. You choose to emphasize the "wine" part, my church chooses to emphasize the "red, colour of blood" bit.

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Okay, I understand that. Although I still prefer 'our' interpretation (well, I would, wouldn't I!) because Christ took a cup of wine as used at Passover meals. He never mentioned the colour. It could well have been some sort of tawny colour, probably full of honeys and spices and things. Not being an expert in Middle Eastern bevvies of the first century AD, I don't know. So I would say that it is valid to assume that we 'ought' to be using wine - I still can't get my head round why colour enters into it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by LostinChelsea:

quote:

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Leo said:

Maybe but no rotating please. When we do the ablutions, we wash everything that has come into contact with the precious blood and that is easier if only one part of the chalice, above the cross or jewel, has been used.

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A priest friend (half-)jokes that "You can always tell a church that's run by the Altar Guild: They use white wine."

Some, in doing ablutions, add a little water and rotate the chalice while drinking so as to (theoretically) clean as you drink.

However you do it, though, washing the entire chalice seems the least of the pressures put on the Altar Guild!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Prosfonesis:
set the norm that brushing the lips with the Most Precious Blood is sufficient for reception; one ought not to swill it down. Not relinquishing the chalice into the hand of the communicant helps to set the tone.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Rossweisse:
If you're allergic to red wine, you simply receive in one kind. That's both traditional and sensible.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Your tradition, not mine. I'm not an Anglican.

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quote:

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Originally posted by beachpsalms:
Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras - Our denomination is less than a hundred years old, with Presbyterian, Congregationalist and Methodist roots. In my area, our older congregations are celebrating 150th anniversaries. It might not seem much to you, but the 19th century is pretty far back for us. (And we're not the most traditionalist denom you'd ever meet.)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Max.:

quote:

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Originally posted by LQ:

quote:

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Originally posted by Prosfonesis:
Not relinquishing the chalice into the hand of the communicant

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Make that
We'll bang our heads together.


Max

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quote:

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Originally posted by Liverpool fan:
I have thought about this occasionally when I have served for a Priest who coughs into his hand at a period after I've washed his hands, well, fingers. I'm not aware of getting sick from the Sacrament, though.

Whether it's a question of faith, or not is something I don't know. What I do think is that the risk of picking up germs is less than one thinks

I thought this thread was about those who don't like Germans when I looked at it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by §Andrew:
What's unthinkable is that God would be overcome by germs, if it's God's Body and Blood that you are receiving that is. If it's not then OK anything might happen. But if we approach God in faith, in order to get deified ourselves, do you really think God won't deify us, but we will get sick because of germs?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Prosfonesis:
At OLoHW, it's the gentle ladies of the altar guild who mostly take care of this part of the parish education, as they are the ones who have to get lipstick out of the purificators. (It is especially hard to get out of the little embroidered crosses.) The second help in this regard is to set the norm that brushing the lips with the Most Precious Blood is sufficient for reception; one ought not to swill it down. Not relinquishing the chalice into the hand of the communicant helps to set the tone.

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That doesn't deal with the problem - just tries to minimize it. A TIRADE works better .. at least for a year or two! Can't your priest do tirades?
 

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Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Andrew has pretty much given the response that I decided not to give: What about the tradition of what the Church has ever done throughout history? Why does the venerable tradition suddenly get thrown out in the 19th century? That was my point to begin with -- in terms of Christian liturgical praxis, something that cropped up a hundred-twenty years ago in a minority expression of Christianity is hardly "tradition".

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
The Lavabo is a symbolic washing only. It certainly wouldn't qualify as a proper material cleansing. It's just that the risk of infection from the Eucharist is nonexistant for the faithful (IMO).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Because as Andrew shows, to state that there was one unified praxis is a historical fallacy. There have been variations in Communion practices for well over 1000 years, and I'm quite confident that the were variations before that too.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angel Wrestler:
If Dietrich Bonheoffer could celebrate communion with his prison mates by pantomiming, then I'd say wine, grape juice, red, white, chartreuse ... doesn't matter. What matters is the real presence of God among the communion of those gathered.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
Isn't it equally unthinkable (in abstract theology) that God's Body and Blood would create a severe allergic reaction in some believers?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angel Wrestler:
I once grabbed a juice box out of our cupboard thinking it was grape juice (it had a picture of grapes) only to realize too late that it was a juice punch containing berry juice and apple juice, as well as grape juice. Once I prayed over it and asked God to "pour out his holy spirit on us gathered here and on these gifts of bread and wine and to make them be for us the body and blood of Christ so that we can be for the world the body of Christ redeemed by his blood" - it was Christ's blood nonetheless.

---

Emphasis mine.

What on earth does it mean to pray over grape juice saying "these gifts of wine"???

And one more question: How do you know it was Christ's blood nonetheless? Where does this assurance come from? Has He revealed that to you to resolve your concern?

[ 11. October 2008, 16:55: Message edited by: §Andrew ]
 

---

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
My point is that variation has existed for a very long time. Since I don't believe that Orthodoxy is utterly correct in everything, I don't have a problem with being at odds with Eastern Orthodox practice. But don't let that stop you from reinforcing your schismatic status by decrying my praxis.
 

---

Posted by §Andrew (# 9313) on :
 
Andrew: The Orthodox objected strongly when they heard rumors that the Latins were introducing new practices over the ancient practices of the catholic church.

Sober Preacher's Kid: variation has existed for a very long time... I don't have a problem with being at odds with Eastern Orthodox practice

Andrew: Variation exists because some Latin speaking guys changed the universal practice of the ancient church. "Eastern Orthodoxy" doesn't enter into this, but to condemn the innovation. It's not a "my practice over your practice" as is the case with all this "it's traditional because this is what we have been doing for the past one hundred years" discussion.

Sober Preacher's Kid: don't let that stop you from reinforcing your schismatic status by decrying my praxis

Andrew: I didn't know I was cut off from your denomination. I thought you guys have been cutting off from each other and that you all come from the Catholic Church. Didn't get the memo where I was cut off from you.

I assume you didn't mean I got cut off from you. Yet you used the word schism. It's very obvious that you give new meanings to the words, to fit your theology. Schism happens when a group cuts itself off from the one Church. Not when two denominations aren't in communion with each other.

The change of the meaning of words is not only suspect but also another step into a damaging path.

Also, I don't decry "your practice" as such. What I am doing is preserve the consistent faith of the Church. What was a mistake one thousand years ago, can't be OK now. We were really serious when we said those things back then. You shouldn't act surprised to see that we really meant them.
 

---

Posted by Max. (# 5846) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Prosfonesis:
set the norm that brushing the lips with the Most Precious Blood is sufficient for reception; one ought not to swill it down. Not relinquishing the chalice into the hand of the communicant helps to set the tone.

---

Absolutely agree.

---

I don't agree. I'm one of these people who likes mass to be BIG! Big Altar, Big Cross, Big Cloth on Altar Table, Big Sermon, Big Actions, Big Washing Bowl, Big Host, Big Cup etc.

The Eucharist is a meal and that needs to be emphasised, but it's not a snack like one would have at a Starbucks on the way home from work, it's a Banquet, a Celebration, a Feast and the host of the meal is Jesus Christ himself.
It's the most wonderful meal that we ever take part in that week. We set the table with the best white altar clothes, we put nice candles out, we use the best cups, we use the best bowls and we should be using tasty bread and tasty wine. Watches shouldn't be worn as we're worshipping an eternal God who is outside of space and time and therefore he doesn't work to time and a lower level it's simply bad form to keep looking at your watch when you're at a meal.

Jesus Christ humbled himself that he could take the substance of bread and wine so that he can enter into our lives, not just spiritually but physically, to feed our bodies as well as our souls.
So when we receive him, we should actually be fed, not in a minimalist way but in a big way. Huge big hunk of host, huge swig from the chalice thank you!

Christ offers himself to us in this fantastic way, we should choose to embrace this gift as much as possible, we should choose to take part in this banquet as fully as we able to and we should make a BIG deal of the Eucharistic Feast, not taking it lightly but by actually emphasising that this is an important meal, much more important than the Ambassidor's Ball

Max.
 

---

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
Andrew:



As ever you are preaching as if you speak for the One True Church. I'm saying you're flat wrong. You claim to defend Ancient Tradition&trade . No, you're defending Greek Orthodox tradition, the two are not the same.

You're surprised when I think you are in error? That I believe that my own church authentically represents Christ's Truth?



The fact that you disagree and act upon that disagreement by saying you are not in communion with my church makes you a schismatic.
 

---

Posted by §Andrew (# 9313) on :
 
Sober Preacher's Kid

You aren't appealing to history. I am. I am making a very tangible appeal to actual people and churches. You think you can interpret the Scriptures and "get it". No appeal to real people. Just what you think Christianity should be. If you were right, it would be very easy to prove your point. You could point me to all the variety in ancient Church practice. You could find a historical justification that shows you are in continuity with someone rather than what you are doing.

Also, my being Greek doesn't play a role here. I suggest you should get over that. You don't think that Russian or Romanian or Bulgarian or Korean or English Orthodox would say something different than what I am saying. Yet you are using my nationality to make an attack that is completely unjustified.

Fine. Continue giving words the meanings you like. Schism = not in communion with each other. Bread = fish. Wine = juice or water or color red. You are free to make your choices. As I am to make mine.
 

---

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
No, you're appealing to your particular version of history. Big difference.

Haven't we had threads where the differences between Greek and Russian Orthodox practice has been discussed? I seem to remember that discussion.
 

---

Posted by moonlitdoor (# 11707) on :
 
I would like to ask those who say that the Eucharist cannot carry infection, what they would do if they saw the person in front of them slip some cyanide into the chalice, unnoticed by the priest.

Do you reckon that would be safe to drink ? Seems to me that if it could contain poison, it could contain germs.
 

---

Posted by Max. (# 5846) on :
 
This is interesting, because essentially the substance would have changed, so it would be a question of whether or not the Real presence has been maintained by the addition of cyanide.


Max.
 

---

Posted by Stranger in a strange land (# 11922) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
I would like to ask those who say that the Eucharist cannot carry infection, what they would do if they saw the person in front of them slip some cyanide into the chalice, unnoticed by the priest.

Do you reckon that would be safe to drink ? Seems to me that if it could contain poison, it could contain germs.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Prosfonesis:
set the norm that brushing the lips with the Most Precious Blood is sufficient for reception; one ought not to swill it down. Not relinquishing the chalice into the hand of the communicant helps to set the tone.

---

Absolutely agree.

---

I don't agree. I'm one of these people who likes mass to be BIG! Big Altar, Big Cross, Big Cloth on Altar Table, Big Sermon, Big Actions, Big Washing Bowl, Big Host, Big Cup etc.

The Eucharist is a meal and that needs to be emphasised, but it's not a snack like one would have at a Starbucks on the way home from work, it's a Banquet, a Celebration, a Feast and the host of the meal is Jesus Christ himself.
It's the most wonderful meal that we ever take part in that week. We set the table with the best white altar clothes, we put nice candles out, we use the best cups, we use the best bowls and we should be using tasty bread and tasty wine. Watches shouldn't be worn as we're worshipping an eternal God who is outside of space and time and therefore he doesn't work to time and a lower level it's simply bad form to keep looking at your watch when you're at a meal.

Jesus Christ humbled himself that he could take the substance of bread and wine so that he can enter into our lives, not just spiritually but physically, to feed our bodies as well as our souls.
So when we receive him, we should actually be fed, not in a minimalist way but in a big way. Huge big hunk of host, huge swig from the chalice thank you!

Christ offers himself to us in this fantastic way, we should choose to embrace this gift as much as possible, we should choose to take part in this banquet as fully as we able to and we should make a BIG deal of the Eucharistic Feast, not taking it lightly but by actually emphasising that this is an important meal, much more important than the Ambassidor's Ball

Max.

---

quote:

---

The cosmetically impaired John Ellis avers:
That doesn't deal with the problem - just tries to minimize it.

---

quote:

---

And y'kno, Max. and LQ go like:
brickwall brickwall

---

Do you boys wanna buy a verb?
 

---

Posted by Max. (# 5846) on :
 
Yes - let's have a Indicative imperfect

"We used to do that but now we know better"


Max who gives the Eucharistic cup to the congregant when they draw near to receive the Precious Blood of Christ: Reduces the possibility of knocked front teeth, reduces the likelihood of spillage and emphasises the idea that the blood of Christ is given freely to humankind

[ 11. October 2008, 20:50: Message edited by: Max. ]
 

---

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 
<<<<<I'm going to get in first!>>>>

And do you say "Drink it NOW"?


 

---

Posted by Alogon (# 5513) on :
 
A study commmissioned by the Archbishop of Canterbury some years back found that there was no risk when from the common cup when the Sacrament was administered from a precious metal chalice and a purificator properly used.

Modern society is of course rather obsessed with health, for want of other standards or desiderata upon which we can all agree. So people need to be reminded of this information from time to time and the church should bear in mind that it is a popular concern, even if not a particularly rational one. For this reason, the use of a ceramic or earthenware chalice when one of precious metal is available annoys me considerably. Why give ammunition to the skeptics?
 

---

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:
This is interesting, because essentially the substance would have changed, so it would be a question of whether or not the Real presence has been maintained by the addition of cyanide.


Max.

---

quote:

---

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Angel Wrestler:
I once grabbed a juice box out of our cupboard thinking it was grape juice (it had a picture of grapes) only to realize too late that it was a juice punch containing berry juice and apple juice, as well as grape juice. Once I prayed over it and asked God to "pour out his holy spirit on us gathered here and on these gifts of bread and wine and to make them be for us the body and blood of Christ so that we can be for the world the body of Christ redeemed by his blood" - it was Christ's blood nonetheless.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Emphasis mine.

What on earth does it mean to pray over grape juice saying "these gifts of wine"???

And one more question: How do you know it was Christ's blood nonetheless? Where does this assurance come from? Has He revealed that to you to resolve your concern?

---

We still call it wine even though it's not fermented. You'll probably have apoplexy but it's what we do.

I believe that it is still the blood because I have faith that God responds and answers the part of the Great Thanksgiving that institute the elements of bread and wine. You could work up a good indignation over that one, too, while you're at it!
 

---

Posted by Max. (# 5846) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
<<<<<I'm going to get in first!>>>>

And do you say "Drink it NOW"?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:


Fr TT, I'm sure, knows the answer.

---

He probably does as zaps bread in Jaysus at least once a week.

What you said above is actually what we were discussing in a Sacraments seminar a while back and it makes a lot of sense. The question was posed "We receive Christ in true physical body, blood, soul and divinity, so do we digest him also? And what about after digestion" and the answer was that as soon as the bodily acids change the substance of the Body and Blood of Christ, they cease to be the Body and Blood of Christ and we only digest simple bread and wine as the substance is broken down into a new substance. We absorb the spiritual aspect of the sacrament into our hearts and we are renewed and regenerated by the sacrament.

So Catholics don't have holier toilets than anybody else


Max.
 

---

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 
The Jesuits are teaching you well.

PS: I zap Jesus into bread daily, not weekly.
 

---

Posted by Max. (# 5846) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
The Jesuits are teaching you well.

PS: I zap Jesus into bread daily, not weekly.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
I would like to ask those who say that the Eucharist cannot carry infection, what they would do if they saw the person in front of them slip some cyanide into the chalice, unnoticed by the priest.

Do you reckon that would be safe to drink ?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:
This is interesting, because essentially the substance would have changed, so it would be a question of whether or not the Real presence has been maintained by the addition of cyanide.

---

Yes, cyanide is known for driving away the God of Abraham...
 

---

Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Your tradition, not mine. I'm not an Anglican.

---

Well, it's not only Anglican, of course: we're actually talking about nearly 2,000 years of Christian tradition -- starting with the example set by Our Lord Himself -- and maintained by all the liturgical churches. That ought to mean something.

Pardon me for noting that you seem to be making it up as you go along. It's too bad that you seem determined to be so hostile to tradition; couldn't you disagree without being so antagonistic?

Max, TT will undoubtedly correct me if I'm mistaken, but my understanding is that Roman Catholic priests are to celebrate the Eucharist at least once a day, under normal circumstances.

Ross
 

---

Posted by Max. (# 5846) on :
 
Actually - I'm very sure that Catholic priests are no longer required to do that, that went with the Second Vatican reforms.... well at least that's what the Jesuits told me!

That's why you don't find priests celebrating at side altars anymore and that's why you find priests sitting in-cognito in the congregation on Sunday Mornings, whilst another priest presides up front.


Max.
 

---

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
I'm not making this up, I'm simply describing a different POV.

Lessee, some have insisted I accept theological conclusions that the Reformed Churches have historically rejected, and then keep insisting that They Uphold Tradition, as if my particular segment of Christianity is some bunion on the side of Christ's Body. Then we get into arguments about how deeply one should imbibe from the Cup, or whether the laity should hold it.

I simply offer a differing POV, and somehow I'm hostile? Right.
 

---

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 
tut tut - one minute I am praising the Jesuits for teaching you well, the next I have to correct their errors (unless you were sleepy that morning and didn't hear properly). The Second Vatican Council had nothing to do with it. There has never been an obligation on Catholic priests to celebrate Mass every day. Their obligation is to celebrate the Liturgy of the Hours every day.

However, there are two motivators to daily celebration: mass stipends and a spiritual encouragement. Concerning the second, Canon 904 says:

quote:

---

Remembering always that in the mystery of the eucharistic sacrifice the work of redemption is exercised continually, priests are to celebrate frequently; indeed, daily celebration is recommended earnestly since, even if the faithful cannot be present, it is the act of Christ and the Church in which priests fulfill their principal function.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by §Andrew:
Yes, cyanide is known for driving away the God of Abraham...

---

You seem to think the absence of yeast keeps him away.
 

---

Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
The issue of priests at side altars has to do with concelebration rather than daily mass: if a priest concelebrates he has celebrated mass and may accept a stipend: he does not have to say a mass on his own in addition to that.

---

Priests around here, as a "day off" activity, might say Mass for one of the many orders of religious sisters.

I believe the local RC priest does this, and in his place one of the deacons leads a Liturgy of the Word with Holy Communion at the usual parish Mass time. There are enough local priests generous enough to do this that the sisters can have Mass every day of the week. I highly doubt that money is involved.
 

---

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 
Oh I've said Mass for sisters - they're very generous!

I loved going to the dear Carmelite Sisters for an early morning Mass. Afterwards I would be shown into a parlour where tea, toast, a boiled egg, newspaper and offering in an envelope would be waiting.

I enjoyed the breakfast but not the paper (it was The Guardian ) and I always took the envelope, but posted it into their offertory box.
 

---

Posted by Prosfonesis (# 1158) on :
 

quote:

---

Max. cracks wise about holy toilets:
The question was posed "We receive Christ in true physical body, blood, soul and divinity, so do we digest him also? And what about after digestion" and the answer was that as soon as the bodily acids change the substance of the Body and Blood of Christ, they cease to be the Body and Blood of Christ and we only digest simple bread and wine as the substance is broken down into a new substance. We absorb the spiritual aspect of the sacrament into our hearts and we are renewed and regenerated by the sacrament.

So Catholics don't have holier toilets than anybody else

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
I'm not making this up, I'm simply describing a different POV. ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
tut tut - one minute I am praising the Jesuits for teaching you well, the next I have to correct their errors (unless you were sleepy that morning and didn't hear properly).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
You seem to think the absence of yeast keeps him away.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Haven't we had threads where the differences between Greek and Russian Orthodox practice has been discussed?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angel Wrestler:
We still call it wine even though it's not fermented. You'll probably have apoplexy but it's what we do.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by §Andrew:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
You seem to think the absence of yeast keeps him away.

---

I think that Christ has a human soul, and that without a human soul it's not Christ that one receives... OF course, you reject formally Apollinarianism, but in praxis...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Wow, what a jump in argument!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by §Andrew:
The very development of doctrine you are so fond NOW, would almost certainly be considered a heresy by the Catholic Saints and faithful of the middle ages. You don't have to be a Catholic to get it.

To me, the only explanation is that there is no living memory whatsoever of what it means to be a Saint, of what it means to be deified, in the Catholic world today. If there was, there would be no issue of developing doctrines, because everything would be clear in the Revelation of the Word Himself. There is no revelation, and we are left with speculation and interpretation of Christian history.

Am I being harsh here? Yes. But what's at stake is Christianity itself, and what poses itself for Christianity but in reality it isn't.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:
Just as a side note - I'm going to mass in a bit and I'm in the final stages of my cold and I should expect it will be over by tomorrow, so if I take a big slurp from the chalice (which I think I probably will do) am I likely to infect somebody or will the metal of the chalice stop my cold germs? (if they indeed are now infectious)


Max.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by §Andrew:
All the Church fathers I have read say explicitly that Judaism is a heresy, like idolatry is a heresy. Why some try to imitate the Jews so much is beyond me.

---

quote:

---

The very development of doctrine you are so fond NOW, would almost certainly be considered a heresy by the Catholic Saints and faithful of the middle ages. You don't have to be a Catholic to get it.

---

quote:

---

it [faith] consists in working out things that have been said in parables, and building them into the foundation of the faith. (Against Heresies. 10.3)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
If there is clear evidence of a cold then, for the sake of the weaker brethren, I would abstain. Otherwise they might see and think "phew! I'm not going near that chalice after him!" or "he shouldn't have received with all those germs".

Do not cause your brother or sister to stumble.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
If there is clear evidence of a cold then, for the sake of the weaker brethren, I would abstain. Otherwise they might see and think "phew! I'm not going near that chalice after him!" or "he shouldn't have received with all those germs".

Do not cause your brother or sister to stumble.

---

Yeah - I'm still coughing, I think I might dunk. (well at least attempt to get a LEM to dunk for me)


Max.

---

quote:

---

Triple Tiara is too nice by half:
This is what gets me with andreas's arguments: late antiquity in the East is taken as the normative standard as if it was that which was given by Christ himself.

---

What I find richly ironic is that by doing so Andrew aligns himself tightly with the protestant Primitivist heresy: if it can't be shown to have been normative in the primitive church (how ever one determines that what that might be), then it is a distortion and corruption. Of course, everything since that time evinces decay rather than the work of the life-giving Spirit.

After the now-you-seen-him-now-you-don't exhumation of poor John Henry away from his good friend, this suggestion seems topical. Andrew, you might want to make a careful read of John Henry Newman's An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine. I'm not saying you would be persuaded, but it's good to get out and about occasionally.
 

---

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :
 
Well, Leo, the cyanide in the chalice is one of those completely hypothetical propositions. Of course, if one of the serpents of the sanctuary had secretely contaminated the wine with cyanide, I guess you as celebrant would be the first one to drop dead, so I don't expect anyone else would be commnicating from said chalice. However, the question is: would a poisened chalice still be the MPB? I would suggest not, since this isn't just a stray, neutral contaminant in the wine, but rather something that changes the nature of the wine so that it is no longer fit matter for the Eucharist and hence no actual change of the Substance can take place. Much as the case with welch's or ribena.
 

---

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :
 
Sorry, that last sentence was excessively provocative. Certainly unfermented grape juice and lethally poisened wine aren't equivalent (though I'm not so sure about Ribena). I don't claim to know what the Holy Spirit does with Welch's, though He's certainly capable of anything.
 

---

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
IME Our Lord has no problem with Welch's Grape Juice. I posted that before your edit, so cheers, and peace.

I have faith that God the Son, in all his superior majesty, can know a poisoned cup at 20 metres.

[ 12. October 2008, 18:24: Message edited by: Sober Preacher's Kid ]
 

---

Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
IME Our Lord has no problem with Welch's Grape Juice. ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
If everything came down pure, unadulterated and clear from our Blessed Saviour, why have we had so many Ecumenical Councils?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by §Andrew:

If the Body and Blood of Christ gets poisoned, the God-fearing priest would make the sign of the Cross, give thanks to God, ask for forgiveness of his sins, and he would consume the Mystery, putting all things in God's hands. So, if God wants the cyanide to act, the priest would sacrifice himself for the congregation, and if God decides for the cyanide to get annulled and return to the nothingness it came from, He will protect His priest and his congregation.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Of course the good Lord doesn't want us to hurl our lives away for nothing. To think so is to get the entire Sacrament of the Eucharist completely the wrong way around.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by §Andrew:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
If everything came down pure, unadulterated and clear from our Blessed Saviour, why have we had so many Ecumenical Councils?

---

Because it takes internalization. And it's very difficult to internalize Christianity. As your losing your temperance over the posts of a 24 yo in an online forum shows.

Seriously, have you read what the fathers that took part in any ecumenical council said? Did they say they were developing doctrine? Why are they all saying over and over again that what they proclaimed in the councils is the once and for all given by the Apostles faith?

You say they developed doctrine, they said they proclaimed nothing but the faith they received, the faith once and for all given by the Apostles to the faithful. I choose to accept their word over yours. End of story.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by §Andrew:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Of course the good Lord doesn't want us to hurl our lives away for nothing. To think so is to get the entire Sacrament of the Eucharist completely the wrong way around.

---

It's not for nothing. To think so is to get the entire Mystery of the Eucharist completely the wrong way around.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by §Andrew:
Yes, actually receiving the Body and Blood of Christ is stupidity, spilling it on the sink (or on the earth) is great wisdom. Fr. TT, we are not getting anywhere. I am surprised you are making it personal, but I assume I can understand why. It's always easier to object at one person's faith than the faith of those whom your Church thinks of as Church Fathers (but hardly takes into consideration).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
...I have not approved of any posts talking about spilling the Lord's Blood - but that does not mean I have to agree with you and the absurd assertion that should someone poison a chalice then God is bound to preserve those who drink from it from being poisoned. This is an absurdity of the highest order. Why don't you try it to see if it works!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:


Unsurprisingly he's never been asked this question before, but he said that he thinks the proper protocol to follow would be to cover the chalice and leave it to the Bishop to deal with it.


Max.

---

And depending on the bishop, would you or would you not tell him what it contained?
 

---

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Prosfonesis:

Not relinquishing the chalice into the hand of the communicant helps to set the tone.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:


Unsurprisingly he's never been asked this question before, but he said that he thinks the proper protocol to follow would be to cover the chalice and leave it to the Bishop to deal with it.


Max.

---

And depending on the bishop, would you or would you not tell him what it contained?

---

quote:

---

Max. demonstrates encouraging ecumenical breadth:
I've just spoken with a Greek Orthodox Seminarian...he said that he thinks the proper protocol to follow would be to cover the chalice and leave it to the Bishop to deal with it.

---

quote:

---

Lietuvos Sv. Kazimiera speaks my mind:
IME, in most places, there is a via media, in which the chalice-bearer keeps a loose hold on the vessel, allowing the communicant to guide it to his/her mouth. That works fine by me, and that's what I've experienced the normal procedure to be, in the US, UK and Canada.

---

quote:

---

IME, in most places, there is a via media, in which the chalice-bearer keeps a loose hold on the vessel, allowing the communicant to guide it to his/her mouth.

---

And that's what this chalice girl does!
 

---

Posted by Davy Wavy Morrison (# 12241) on :
 
Reading through a thread like this always saddens me (and sometimes causes a little indignation) as it emphasises the fact that the sacrament of the Lord's Supper is a cause of such great division amongst orthodox Christians. Since I wouldn't be able to convince you all that my view is the right one I'll just have to remain sad. Taking on the topic is in fact like being handed a poisoned chalice.
 

---

Posted by Foaming Draught (# 9134) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Davy Wavy Morrison:
the sacrament of the Lord's Supper is a cause of such great division amongst orthodox Christians.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Foaming Draught:

I don't have any greater insight into the meaning behind Our Lord's words than anyone else, but I feel pretty sure that I'm on safe ground when I say that He didn't intend us to reduce His meaning to "How to confect a valid eucharist".

FD

---

... and on that, I think we can all agree!
 

---

Posted by Davy Wavy Morrison (# 12241) on :
 
I think you are right. Even in my Sunday congregation I am sure there are different views on the sacrament (and some probably have no particular "theory" about it at all) but we all share fellowship in it (if our hearts are right with God). But serious differences are still out there and must be faced at times.
 

---

Posted by moonlitdoor (# 11707) on :
 
Sorry if my question about cyanide precipitated another episode of the culture wars; that was not my intention.

I admit it was a slightly silly scenario as Leo said, but I raised it because it seemed to me that if poison added to the Eucharist would still be poisonous, so germs added to the Eucharist would still be infectious. I wondered if someone would say these two were not analogous and why.
 

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Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 
I am not of the magic school of thought when it comes to the transmission of poison, disease and so on via the Chalice. If someone was seriously intent on poisoning the congregation, the poison would work: just as Auschwitz worked and Nagasaki and every other act of evil, despite God being good and Almighty. God is not constantly thwarting every act of evil, least of all by giving magical properties to holy things.

The same is true with disease: I am sure that a highly contagious disease could be transmitted via holy things. I have celebrated Mass on a ship where there was a growing number of people showing signs of diarrhoea - so we gave communion in one kind only, as a preventitive measure. I was not depriving the people of grace because they were still fully receiving the Lord under one kind. I see absolutely no problem with being sensible if there is a serious and obvious risk.

But I emphasise serious and obvious because one can go too far - either by being fetishistic about germs or about absolutely having to receive communion under both kinds. That's when daft things start to happen and those Church Leaders daft people so despise have to start making rules.
 

---

Posted by Max. (# 5846) on :
 
I think we've been ignoring a very important question...


 

---

Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :
 
Ha ha, Max.!

Running through my brain is:

The pellet with the poison's in the flagon with the dragon,
The chalice from the palace has the brew that is true...

...or something like that...
 

---

Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
If there is clear evidence of a cold then, for the sake of the weaker brethren, I would abstain. Otherwise they might see and think "phew! I'm not going near that chalice after him!" or "he shouldn't have received with all those germs".

Do not cause your brother or sister to stumble.

---

When I have a communicable illness (I was recovering from a dreadful fever last Palm Sunday), I receive under one kind at the rite of Communion, and then assist with the "reverent consumption" of the MPB in the sacristy after Mass, so that I am the last to receive from the chalice.
 

---

Posted by Max. (# 5846) on :
 
Yeah - there a few problems with that though:

1. Your immune system will already be overloaded so you will be less likely to resist any other disease that may be present on the chalice.

2. (In the RC Church at least) it's the celebrant's job to do the reverent consumption at mass and it's usually at the front on the altar during the second communion song.


Max.
 

---

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 
Not quite - this is where a dispute still exists. The GIRM says the chalice should be purified by the celebrant, deacon or an acolyte, but does not say the celebrant has to consume all that remains in the Chalice.

[ 13. October 2008, 13:40: Message edited by: Triple Tiara ]
 

---

Posted by Max. (# 5846) on :
 
You're not the real Triple Tiara!
 

---

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 
Hey, I can split hairs with the best of them, even if I wasn't taught by Jesuits.

(Actually, come to think of it, I was taught by an ex-Jesuit at Loyola University, Chicago. Maybe that counts).
 

---

Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :
 
What concerns Max. and me is not your talent or not for casuistry but your sudden makeover, congruous though it may be with your name.
 

---

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 
Oh I see.

That must rank as the fastest changeover in history - Simon was quick as lightning in effecting the change.

Like it? I got a bit annoyed that my erstwhile avatar, which nobody else ever seemed to use, suddenly became popular, especially with folks such as The Atheist. Took me a few hours to find a suitable image. I like the Renaissance Pope look. Hope you do too .
 

---

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by LQ:
What concerns Max. and me is not your talent or not for casuistry but your sudden makeover, congruous though it may be with your name.

---

Does the Ship permit 'gradual makeovers'? You've both had a few in your time, anyway. Some of them very cheeky
 

---

Posted by Max. (# 5846) on :
 
I don't like it - and I will refuse to speak to you until it's changed back to that lovely picture of Mr. Davidson.


Max.

[To Revd. Dr. Triple Cardinal Tiara)

[ 13. October 2008, 14:03: Message edited by: Max. ]
 

---

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 
Now, now, Maxi-babes. You know very well that I set very high store by the things that you don't like, and if you don't approve I'm likely to think that must be a sign they are a good thing!
 

---

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 
PS - I was only trying to look much more like your godfather!
 

---

Posted by Max. (# 5846) on :
 
Pah - I'm gonna go study

Max.
 

---

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 
Oh and I think your sig is very, very funny in the light of this thread. Took me a moment or two to work out (creeping age and all that).

Jesuit soupmaking?????? Do they all include split-peas?

[ 13. October 2008, 14:13: Message edited by: Triple Tiara ]
 

---

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Oh I see.

That must rank as the fastest changeover in history - Simon was quick as lightning in effecting the change.

Like it? I got a bit annoyed that my erstwhile avatar, which nobody else ever seemed to use, suddenly became popular, especially with folks such as The Atheist. Took me a few hours to find a suitable image. I like the Renaissance Pope look. Hope you do too .

---

Why do I have the urge to grow a very long beard and dress in hosiery all of a sudden?
 

---

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 
Ah the protestant spirit runs very deep in your veins!

Here, <piff>, have an Indulgence and an Ave Maria!
 

---

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
Trade you for a Geneva Psalter and an English Bible translation autographed by Tyndale himself? The commentary is guaranteed to knock out any Jesuit, Dominican or Cardinal within a 20-metre radius!


 

---

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
I feel like I should be posting a Hostly Elizabethan Settlement.

I'm also glad to note that, as with the actual Reformation, we're studiously ignoring the Orthodox.
 

---

Posted by Major Disaster (# 13229) on :
 
I would love to join in, but I understand so little of it....
Have fun while you can. I fell off my chair (well spun full circle, to be honest) at Max's post at the bottom of page 3, advising leaving it to the bishop to deal with. Lovely!

But I do seem to remember seeing (and Triple tiara must know, that the hosts(3) and wine and water were all partaken of at the high altar at the offertory of the Papal Mass, by a designated member of the Papal Household before the rest were placed appropriately on Paten and in the chalice. This was to prevent poisoning of the Pope via the Sacred Elemants. This practice continued into the 1960's & would seem to put some reality behind the hypothesis that was raised in this thread.
 

---

Posted by Cyprian (# 5638) on :
 
I have read this thread with difficulty and some degree of sadness at the tone used in parts, and the extreme approaches taken to the Mystery of the Eucharist, in terms of possibility and impossibility of various happenings. I do not like talking about these things because it almost seems as though we're putting our God to the test.

For my part, I believe the Eucharist, like much else that is grace-bestowing within the life of the Church, to be a healing and nourishing food, further incorporating us into the life of Christ and deifying us, overcoming the death and sickness of this world that is the result of the fall. That does not mean that the Mysteries are magical, of course.

I know somebody who, for this reason, bathed in the waters of a healing well recently, despite the fact that the waters had obviously been host to some form of microscopic life that had changed the colour of the water from its usual clear colour to an unpleasant cloudy shade of green, and this in spite of protests from others that he would catch something nasty.

I know one lady who is coeliac and who uses separate counters at home for her and her husband's food. She reacts badly to the tiniest amount of bread that finds its way into her food yet has no problem when receiving the Body of Christ. I only know this because, in my lack of understanding of faith and poor form, I asked the question. Otherwise, I would never have known because she simply quietly receives with faith and gives thanks, with no broadcast or fuss. When I asked her if she reacts to the Eucharist, she responded simply with, 'No, it's the Body of Christ', in a very matter-of-fact way, then continued washing her dishes.

In both cases, these are people who, discreetly and without unnecessary ado, simply approached the mysteries in faith, with their eyes turned towards the Lord with hope, awaiting their food in due season. They were not putting God to the test, thinking, 'Well, let's see if God can overcome this one', then waiting to see what would happen, as though the mysteries are to be put to such an experiement and as though grace could come from such a faithless approach.

quote:

---

Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
I would like to ask those who say that the Eucharist cannot carry infection, what they would do if they saw the person in front of them slip some cyanide into the chalice, unnoticed by the priest.

Do you reckon that would be safe to drink ?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
Colds are infectious during the initial phase - about two days while you are starting the symptoms. By the time you are sneezing, you are not at all, or less infectious.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
...But I emphasise serious and obvious because one can go too far - either by being fetishistic about germs or about absolutely having to receive communion under both kinds. That's when daft things start to happen and those Church Leaders daft people so despise have to start making rules.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Forthview:
But the pope no longer wears a Triple tiara - it is now considered to be Old Hat - but seriously in the fullness of time I should be delighted if TT were to become the next pope - but he has to be called Peter.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin L:


Don't come knocking at my door begging alms for maintenance at St. Peter's Basilica, though!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
No, not "Peter" - TT must take the pallium under the name of Hadrian. And then immediately reinstate all sadly abandoned ceremonies and marks of office, for all the hierarchies of the church, including the Triple Crown.

And that will only be the start...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
...Rossweisse In view of your excellent taste in music, WE break with all previous misogynistic tradition and appoint you Chief Director of Music to the Papal Throne. WE undertake to consider at least daily, for the rest of OUR pontificate, the vexed question of Anglican Orders. ...

---

Mille, mille grazie, o mio signore. Tu es Petrus, baby!

(The music will be good... no fear!)

Ross
 

---

Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 
St Silas the Carter WE name you Papal Chamberlain and Rummager through the Papal Sacristy drawers. WE forbid you, however, from attempting to try on the outfits first!
 

---

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
Oh dear. I think that hat has gone to TT's head.

Can I be Papal Banker, Your Holiness? My Protestant Work Ethic has to go somewhere you know.

BTW my beard is coming along nicely. I ordered the hosiery online today.

[ 14. October 2008, 01:50: Message edited by: Sober Preacher's Kid ]
 

---

Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
MartinL: WE name you Master of Papal Ceremonies.

---

Jackpot!

+Marini got to ride in the Popemobile sometimes. I'm installing a rumble seat on the sedan chair.

quote:

---

The first Ceremony WE intend to conduct will be a Solemn Proclamation of Indulgences to celebrate OUR election. WE trust you will come up with some good ideas for the occasion.

---

Oh, I think I have some good ideas...


You don't even know how much I needed the laughs tonight! Thanks!
 

---

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
No, not "Peter" - TT must take the pallium under the name of Hadrian. And then immediately reinstate all sadly abandoned ceremonies and marks of office, for all the hierarchies of the church, including the Triple Crown.

And that will only be the start...

---

Casting yourself as the murderous comedy Socialist, ken?
 

---

Posted by Max. (# 5846) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:

Max. WE elevate you to the rank of Cardinal, and Legate to the Jesuits. WE will permit you to wear sandals at the Papal Court. But WE command you to keep well away from OUR Papal Liturgies, and most particularly from OUR Papal Choir!

---

Ah, erm - I just presided over this in St Peter's Square....

(Actually, I'm sure the article it came from is likely to wind some people up on the ship!)


Max.
 

---

Posted by Low Treason (# 11924) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:
Ah, erm - I just presided over this in St Peter's Square....

(Actually, I'm sure the article it came from is likely to wind some people up on the ship!)

Max.

---

Drat you Max. now I'm obsessed with wondering what the procedure would be if the chalice was knocked over after consecration.....

[code, dear. code]

[ 14. October 2008, 13:39: Message edited by: dj_ordinaire ]
 

---

Posted by John Ellis (# 14063) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
PAPAL BULL

[b]John Ellis In view of your excellent suggestions WE name you Latin (or Greek if you prefer) Patriarch of Constantinople. WE will ordain you straight to the episcopate so that WE need not trouble ourselves with those troublesome Orders you have received elsewhere. WE endorse your plan for a new Basilica in Constantinople and trust you will exert every effort to raise the necessary funds.

---

Mmmm - have to be Latin, I suppose. Had you forgotten that ... erm ... there does happen already to be a Greek one ...? Whereas there's been a 60 year vacancy for a Latiin one ....

But, hang on ... Latin Patriarch? Like, I'd have to acknowledge ... papal monarchy ?! I suspect a Jesuitical plot to manipulate my conscience by offers of preferment ...! And I'd have to flog the indulgences!!!

Fancy the Vatican keeping appointing (mostly) Eye-talian Latin Patriarchs for all those centuries .... I see it was 1965 before they finally gave up on it ..

I see your Holiness didn't take up the suggestion of a Trappist house on Athos. Well, fair enough, on reflection it wouldn't be edifying to see Trappists being hurled into the Aegean by enraged Old Kalendarists ....
 

---

Posted by Ann (# 94) on :
 
Can't you build a retirement home for all those nuns who put the Pope to bed every night?
 

---

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Low Treason:
Drat you Max. now I'm obsessed with wondering what the procedure would be if the chalice was knocked over after consecration.....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Low Treason:
Drat you Max. now I'm obsessed with wondering what the procedure would be if the chalice was knocked over after consecration.....

---

You set fire to the bale of straw, and then throw the priest onto it.

---

Is that discipline, doctrine, or (infallible) dogma, Your Holiness?

(Spelling is not infallible, it seems, even in a one-line comment )

[ 15. October 2008, 14:40: Message edited by: Rev per Minute ]
 

---

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 
It's example - to encourage others not to do daft things.
 

---

Posted by Max. (# 5846) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Low Treason:
Drat you Max. now I'm obsessed with wondering what the procedure would be if the chalice was knocked over after consecration.....

---

You set fire to the bale of straw, and then throw the priest onto it.

---

That's horrible!

Max who received communion from the person sitting to his right and administered communion to the person sitting on his left earlier today.... and thought of TT when doing so
 

---

Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:
...Max who received communion from the person sitting to his right and administered communion to the person sitting on his left earlier today.... and thought of TT when doing so

---

Max, you're such a heretic.

I look forward to the Church of Rome becoming ever so much more orthodox and tasteful under the divinely dictated papacy of Pope Hadrian "Trip" VII.

(Trip, I'm thinking of commissioning a Mass setting for your enthronement from your fellow Brit Sasha Johnson Manning, who has extensive experience in liturgical composition -- unless there's someone else you'd prefer!)

Ross

[ 16. October 2008, 00:35: Message edited by: Rossweisse ]
 

---

Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rossweisse:
(Trip, I'm thinking of commissioning a Mass setting for your enthronement from your fellow Brit Sasha Johnson Manning, who has extensive experience in liturgical composition -- unless there's someone else you'd prefer!)

Ross

---

...subject to approval, of course, by the Master of Papal Ceremonies. But it's only a formality--there is no doubt in my mind about your musical taste, Ross.
 

---

Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :
 
Can I be a Dean of some sort? I just love the name "Dean"?

Or Archbishop of some remote island off the South Pole?
 

---

Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on :
 
Why, thank you, Martin! I have no doubts about your good taste, either.

Yours in Midwestern musical solidarity,
Ross
 

---

Posted by SeraphimSarov (# 4335) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rossweisse:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:
...Max who received communion from the person sitting to his right and administered communion to the person sitting on his left earlier today.... and thought of TT when doing so

---

Max, you're such a heretic.

I look forward to the Church of Rome becoming ever so much more orthodox and tasteful


Ross

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Oh dear. I think that hat has gone to TT's head.

Can I be Papal Banker, Your Holiness? My Protestant Work Ethic has to go somewhere you know.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Can I be a Dean of some sort? I just love the name "Dean"?

Or Archbishop of some remote island off the South Pole?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Can I be a Dean of some sort? I just love the name "Dean"?

Or Archbishop of some remote island off the South Pole?

---

Do you still have all those splendid sinecure offices in partibus infidelibus, TT - if so, surely you could give him one of those? Like Metropolitan of Ctesiphon and the Furthest East, or suchlike
 

---

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 
Well, the English Benedictine Congregation has all the old titles which it doles out to elderly retired monks, like Abbot of Westminster and Prior of Chester and the like.

Maybe WE should create Anglican_Brat Dean of St Paul's (Fanum) until such time as it is "restored to the old religion" (as the notice board at St Etheldreda's Ely Place so discreetly puts it).

WE do not believe Sober-Preacher's Kid showed sufficient enthusiasm at OUR election, so WE are witholding any favours from him
 

---

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
May I petition Your Holiness for consideration of your humble servant's qualifications as Spellchecker and Pedant in Partibus Infidelium? Although there will be much competition from certain shipmates.
 

---

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:

Maybe WE should create Anglican_Brat Dean of St Paul's (Fanum) until such time as it is "restored to the old religion" (as the notice board at St Etheldreda's Ely Place so discreetly puts it).

---

I thought it was already dedicated to the cult of Mithras... or was it Midas?
 

---

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 
Before WE became Pope WE believed in infallibility. Now that WE are Pope, WE feel it.

Being infallible, WE do not need a spellchecker.

[ 16. October 2008, 13:18: Message edited by: Triple Tiara ]
 

---

Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
... until such time as it is "restored to the old religion" (as the notice board at St Etheldreda's Ely Place so discreetly puts it). ...

---

How old?

A question for your Mass setting: Should we be thinking in terms of standard Church Latin (i.e., funky Italian) pronunciation, or will Your Holiness prefer a more English Latin pronunciation?

Ross
 

---

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
WE do not believe Sober-Preacher's Kid showed sufficient enthusiasm at OUR election, so WE are witholding any favours from him

---

No loans for you then!

We'll see who comes begging to who first.

This coronation sounds like it's going to cost a pretty penny.
 

---

Posted by moonlitdoor (# 11707) on :
 
On a point of order, if you are now pope TT, can you also be papabile ? Popes don't generally have to seek reelection so it seems to me that you are no longer papabile and should change to Ship's infallibile.
 

---

Posted by Max. (# 5846) on :
 
From the Desk of Cardinal Max., Legate of the Jesuits to the people of Christ's Church

My dear Sisters and Brothers in the Risen Lord:

Today, myself and a group of about 30 Religious, Priests and Bishops travelled to the Lake District for a day of Prayer, Meditation and Thanksgiving to God for the gift of Teva Sandals and have come to the decision that Teva Sandals are now to be the official Sandals of the Franciscans, the Jesuits and all Sandal wearing Catholics to the Glory of God's holy name!

I shall be presiding over a special mass at the newly built "Christ our Lord in Sandals" Abbey in Milton Keynes on 8th November 2008 to bless 400 Pairs of Teva Sandals to be distributed immediately amongst all ranks of the Catholic Church in England and Wales. Rowan Williams will preach and the Dalai Lama will lead a period of silence in the mass.


Yours in the Risen Christ
Your Buddy - +Max
 

---

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 
max No. WE limit you to the Jesuits. WE wish to keep all things funky, chunky and wanky in one confined group. WE will not allow the madness to spread beyond those confines.

RossweisseWE are sure WE are about to break your sisterly heart, but WE prefer the lilting Italianate Latin above the harder English and German pronunciations.

moonlitdoor Due to your ability to spot flaws in logic and to read the fine print, WE name you Hairsplitter to the Papal Throne. WE ask you to ignore OUR earlier message to Angloid and the, ahem, tricky matter of OUR infallibility.
 

---

Posted by Max. (# 5846) on :
 
A Friendly note to the pope from Cardinal Max.

We aren't known as the Catholic Gestapo for no reason! We're not just a wacky group of the Church, we're also very learned, very powerful and very influential. We also are all around


Your Buddy +Max


Max.
 

---

Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
max No. WE limit you to the Jesuits. WE wish to keep all things funky, chunky and wanky in one confined group. WE will not allow the madness to spread beyond those confines.

---

quote:

---

Rossweisse WE are sure WE are about to break your sisterly heart, but WE prefer the lilting Italianate Latin above the harder English and German pronunciations.

---

No -- it's your call, Your Holiness. That's why I asked!

Ross // practicing the obedience thing

[ 16. October 2008, 20:50: Message edited by: Rossweisse ]
 

---

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
What about a Classic Latin pronunciation? All c's are hard, all h's aspirated.



As you can tell, I've spoken to Ancient History profs.

BTW Your Holiness, please, pretty please won't you send Max. to Canada as he said he wants to do? I can take him on a camping trip in Algonquin Park.
 

---

Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on :
 
Max., Missionary to Nunavit... That's a cool idea!

Ross
 

---

Posted by St.Silas the carter (# 12867) on :
 
From the Desk of Archbishop Silas C., Papal Chamberlain and Expicator of Vestments to the Supreme Pontiff;To all children of Holy Mother Church
Bretheren in in Christ:
After several meetings with Mons.Marini,Master of Cermonies to the S.P., and Mons. Camille Perl, secretary of the CD, the following rules are to be observed when vesting:
-The custom is reprobated whereby "Cassock-albs" exist anywhere*.This same is extended to albs and cottas containing less than four inches of lace.

-The dubium is revoked whereby gothic vestments are allowed to look like potato sacks*. Examples of proper Gothic vestments made be found in any vestments designed by A.W.N.Pugin or Micheal Sternbeck. Lace may not be worn with Gothic vestments.

-In response to the apparitions of Our Lady of the Sacristy to Sr. Maria Jacoba Caterina Barbara of St.Domitilla and the Holy Martyrs of Lyon, (Known as Sr.May.)Maniples are to be worn at all masses except during passiontide.

-It is more preferable that Gothic chasubles not be worn in Italianate churches.The Pianetta may be worn anywhere.

-Mitres may be no shorter than 11 inches tall. Gothic mitres, however, may be shorter, provided that they look like this.

I hope that these instructions will be followed with joyous obedience, or at least some kind of obedience.I thank those who attended the pontifical high mass that I celebrated last week at St.James, Spanish Place for the founding of the Society of Blessed Paul VI (SBPVI), A society of apostolic life dedicated to the renewal of Vatican II.I Would also like to thank those attended the ordination of 57 men to the priesthood of said society at the basilica of Our Lady of Lourdes in Philadelphia.
*Special Indult is given to provinces of Jesuits.
I.C.P.M.
+ Silas C
 

---

Posted by Max. (# 5846) on :
 
From the desk of the Jesuit and Ignatian Outreach Committee for the Jesuit Provinces

Dear fellow Brothers and Sisters,

In this deep financial crisis that we seem to be facing, we feel that it is our role to reach out to those who feel that they are in a situation of desperation and despair. We feel that the best thing we can do is invite them to mass, which is why next Sunday in all Jesuit outposts, we shall be celebrating " Folk Mass Sunday"


Suggested hymns for this wonderful outreach would be:

Bind us Together Lord

Sing it in the Valleys, Shout it from the mountain tops!

Jesus put this song into my heart

The Magic Penny Song

I am the bread of life


We hope you have a fantastic outreach mass!

Sister Hilary C.J.
 

---

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rossweisse:
Max., Missionary to Nunavit... That's a cool idea!

Ross

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
...I leave it to others to conceive his matyrology...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by St.Silas the carter:
From the Desk of Archbishop Silas C., Papal Chamberlain and Expicator of Vestments to the Supreme Pontiff;To all children of Holy Mother Church
Bretheren in in Christ:
After several meetings with Mons.Marini,Master of Cermonies to the S.P., and Mons. Camille Perl

---

...Ehem... and I quote:

quote:

---

Triple Tiara:
MartinL WE name you Master of Papal Ceremonies.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin L:
"If chasuble and mitre match, throw it down the hatch."

---

quote:

---

Where chasubles and mitres meet
go to the Baptists down the street

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
The Santo Padre has never worn a Cappa Magna and WE are not given to innovations!

However, the Mantum is still an option.

You see what happens when the pope disperses his authority: the children start fighting among themselves!

---

A fine choice. Profoundly apostolic yet humble in its simplicity. The taste of the pontiff is to be commended and set forth as an example for others to follow.

Foaming Draught:
Worrying about vestments keeps upper management from sticking their noses where they don't belong.

Chasubles are functional: they hide clerical girth to a certain degree, they cover a wide variety of sweat stains, and they keep clergy from looking like used car salespeople.

Mitres are likewise functional: they keep the bishop's head from getting too big and they force the bishop to bow when passing below the rood.

Copes are functional as well: they are excellent for tossing over a cleric's shoulders when said cleric is wearing a tacky stole.

Sanctuary slippers: keep the presider from standing too long, and thus make the liturgy a manageable length.

Birettas: they just look cool.
 

---

Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on :
 
The Mantum looks nice and warm -- perfect for drafty yet incredibly historic churches.

Biretti do look cool, although the Canterbury cap is considerably more practical. I understand why Il Papa might want to eschew it, however.

(Can sanctuary slippers ever have bunnies embroidered on them? That would introduce an understated element of whimsy to the proceedings.)

Ross
 

---

Posted by Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known (# 11399) on :
 
Kissing the pontifical scarlet slippers of His Holiness Pope Triple Tiara, may I respectfully and humbly ask to be appointed to an office that he deems will put my limited skill and knowledge to better use?


 

---

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :
 
I read that il Papa has dispensed with the services of a Papal spellchecker,however he will not wish the use of 'biretti' to pass as a supposed plural of 'biretta'

Yes, there are some words in the usual language of the Papal court (Italian) which end in'a' and are masculine,virtually all of these words being of Greek provenance ,such as 'il Papa' and its plural 'i Papi'

'biretta' is however the English form of a word which has its closest equivalent in Italian as 'la berretta da prete'

Berretta has the plural of 'berrette' in Italian,but I do not know what is the plural of 'biretta' in english.
 

---

Posted by cor ad cor loquitur (# 11816) on :
 
I should be honoured to serve your TripleTiaratude as prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

Or, as we once called it around here, the Holy Ingosition.
 

---

Posted by Max. (# 5846) on :
 
You wouldn't want to help out in the Jesuits?


Max.
 

---

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Forthview:
'biretta' is however the English form of a word which has its closest equivalent in Italian as 'la berretta da prete'

Berretta has the plural of 'berrette' in Italian,but I do not know what is the plural of 'biretta' in english.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:
You wouldn't want to help out in the Jesuits?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cor ad cor loquitur:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:
You wouldn't want to help out in the Jesuits?

---

Of course not! My mission as prefect of the CDF -- should His Holiness so appoint me -- will be to hunt down and vaporise heretics. The Jesuits are harbouring plenty of heretics, let me tell you...and don't even get me started on the Anglicans...

Exterminate! Exterminate! Exterminate!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cor ad cor loquitur:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:
You wouldn't want to help out in the Jesuits?

---

Of course not! My mission as prefect of the CDF -- should His Holiness so appoint me -- will be to hunt down and vaporise heretics. The Jesuits are harbouring plenty of heretics, let me tell you...and don't even get me started on the Anglicans...

Exterminate! Exterminate! Exterminate!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known:
Kissing the pontifical scarlet slippers of His Holiness Pope Triple Tiara, may I respectfully and humbly ask to be appointed to an office that he deems will put my limited skill and knowledge to better use?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known:
Kissing the pontifical scarlet slippers of His Holiness Pope Triple Tiara, may I respectfully and humbly ask to be appointed to an office that he deems will put my limited skill and knowledge to better use?

---

mmmm. Let's see. How about Archpriest of a Lesser Known Basilica?

---

My sincerest thanks, Most Holy Father!

My first act as Archpriest of the Lesser Known Basilica: Ensure that HH, Pope Triple Tiara will have at all times at his disposal in the Basilica the following:

• a selection of tiaras
• a selection of copes and other vestments
• a selection of thrones
• sediarii

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:
From the desk of the Jesuit and Ignatian Outreach Committee for the Jesuit Provinces

Dear fellow Brothers and Sisters,

In this deep financial crisis that we seem to be facing, we feel that it is our role to reach out to those who feel that they are in a situation of desperation and despair. We feel that the best thing we can do is invite them to mass, which is why next Sunday in all Jesuit outposts, we shall be celebrating " Folk Mass Sunday"


Suggested hymns for this wonderful outreach would be:

Bind us Together Lord

Sing it in the Valleys, Shout it from the mountain tops!

Jesus put this song into my heart

The Magic Penny Song

I am the bread of life


We hope you have a fantastic outreach mass!

Sister Hilary C.J.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known:
For purposes of security, minimal publicity will be allowed in the precincts of the Lesser Known Basilica save for the interior, and that musical selections are to be submitted to the venerable Chief Musical Director Rossweisse, while the rites shall be in the jurisdiction of the most reverend Martin L, master of Papal Ceremonies.

Incense will be available by the tonne, for all high Masses.

So ordered by my very reverend self, the Archpriest Hedrin of the Lesser Known.

---

The Master of Papal Ceremonies approves of all your sage suggestions. The purchase orders for tons of incense have already been submitted.

On those occasions when you and the subdean of the College will act as principal concelebrants, I shall respectfully ask the Papal Chamberlain St. Silas the Carter to find suitable attire to befit your rank, while I myself will begin searching for obscure yet highly important rites which may be yours by privilege as Titular Bishop of the Suburbicarian See of Ostia.

I would like to comment Triple's ecumenically-minded leadership. The seniormost Cardinal-Bishop is apparently "High Church Evangelical with Anglican leanings"!
 

---

Posted by Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known (# 11399) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
For setting such a good example of filial devotion and fraternal co-operation, the twin pillars of communion, WE elevate you immediately to the rank of Cardinal Bishop of Ostia Antica!

---

I am humbled and honored by this most pleasant surprise, Your Holiness!

I shall discharge my office faithfully through Our Lord Jesus Christ and His Holy Apostles, Peter and Paul, and Mary, the Blessed Mother.

Most Reverend Martin L, I thank you for your approval of the catalogue that I have requested for the Lesser Known Basilica, of which I am Archpriest (can I still keep my Archpriesthood of the Basilica while holding cardinalitial office?), and for your consideration of proper rites that I may use in the future as Dean of the Sacred College. As such, I simply request that I be allowed to alternate between Roman and English rochets depending on the nature of the Celebration, and other apparel deemed suitable or proper for my functions.
 

---

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin L:
I would like to comment Triple's ecumenically-minded leadership. The seniormost Cardinal-Bishop is apparently "High Church Evangelical with Anglican leanings"!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known:
(can I still keep my Archpriesthood of the Basilica while holding cardinalitial office?)

---

quote:

---

As such, I simply request that I be allowed to alternate between Roman and English rochets depending on the nature of the Celebration

---

quote:

---

...and other apparel deemed suitable or proper for my functions.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin L:
I would like to comment Triple's ecumenically-minded leadership. The seniormost Cardinal-Bishop is apparently "High Church Evangelical with Anglican leanings"!

---

Hey, we drove them away by selling Indulgences, so we might as well buy them back with titles and offices!

---

Have you discussed this with your [real] superiors? It might actually work. Perhaps the Cardinal-Bishops could include the ABC, the ABY, the President of the LWF, the Head Honcho of the United Methodists, etc.

 

---

Posted by Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known (# 11399) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin L:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known:
(can I still keep my Archpriesthood of the Basilica while holding cardinalitial office?)

---

Cardinal Law, formerly of Boston, was named Archpriest of somewhere in Rome after he resigned his See. He remains a cardinal.

quote:

---

As such, I simply request that I be allowed to alternate between Roman and English rochets depending on the nature of the Celebration

---

Affirmative ad mentem: It has been a longstanding expectation that the proper vestments are used for their proper rites.

quote:

---

...and other apparel deemed suitable or proper for my functions.

---

Provided it has been deemed suitable by this office before being worn, there is no problem.

---

Am happy with the news of keeping my archpriesthood of the Lesser Known Basilica. Thank you.

As for the permission extended for me to don either type of rochet, I am thankful for such provisions according to propriety, ditto my donning of other vesture and apparel as befits my office.

On the subject of administering in both kinds, I ask to be allowed to don gloves when distributing communion, which I will dip first in the chalice to allow the faithful to receive in both species.
 

---

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
As I was looking at myself in my Geneva Gown, pondering my tabs, I noticed how wonderfully silly and anachronistic I looked, and then thought that allowing a sedilla into the church was OK after all.

Sooo...

[Kissing the slippers, thrice of course]

Congratulations on your Election, most holy Father!

In celebration of this most joyous occasion, I have caused all "No Smoking" signs to be taken down from my local parish of Presbymethemationalists. Especially the one near the Lord's Table.

I have also encouraged the Session to fill the blank spaces on our walls with Holy Images, starting from the East Wall and working back. The painters are coming on Thursday.

As our Organ had reached the end of its service life (as it was predestined to do. ) we have chosen to rely on purely vocal music in the future. Some selections:

For Easter...

A song from Heaven, truly...

This one we do whenever we can...

Thinking of our dear Holy Father...

Given your generosity of spirit, might this humble Reformed join the ranks of your Anglican and Lutheran followers in your service?

[prostrating at the foot of the Papal Throne]

Remember, Geneva, Edinburgh and Toronto love you!

[ 21. October 2008, 03:26: Message edited by: Sober Preacher's Kid ]
 

---

Posted by Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known (# 11399) on :
 
Most Holy Father Triple Tiara (long may he gloriously reign!), I beseech Your Holiness to grant the supplication of our Reformed brother Sober Preacher's Kid who asks that he, too, be part of your curia.

He seeks to do well, by my humble estimate, to reform the Reform, and to restore that which was unfortunately lost during those times of tumult.

Kissing the Fisherman's Ring,

Hedrin Card. Ep. Ostia Antica
Archpriest of the Lesser Known Basilica.
 

---

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 
<<<Private Papal thought: Ah, did not OUR Venerable Predecessors the Renaissance Popes know a thing or two! Handing out titles and offices certainly brings them into line! Even the most hardened Protestant heart melts at the thought of a Papal title >>>>

Sober Preacher's Kid: WE note with pontifical delight the conversion from your erstwhile obstinacy and your willingness to serve US in OUR Supreme Governance. WE are not entirely convinced yet of your personal theological persuasions, but WE can ignore those for the time being. Noting your own request, WE grant you Governance of the Institute of Pontifical Works (also known as the Vatican Bank). That way WE can keep you from theological and liturgical concerns and thus preserve such offices for True Believers. WE allow you to don Geneva Gown and tights - but only while working in OUR bank - WE would not want to frighten OUR sartorial advisors, such as St Silas, by the sight of such gear near the Pontifical Throne. However, you may also wear your outfit when dining with Cardinal Max in his sandals, and indeed whenever you have dealings with any Jesuits. God knows, the Geneva get-up is a vast improvement on some of the stuff they themselves choose to wear!
 

---

Posted by Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known (# 11399) on :
 
In continuation with keeping charge of the Lesser Known Basilica, I must entreat my most eminent and most reverend brother, the Lord Cardinal Max., to don proper footwear when celebrating at the Lesser Known Basilica, of which I am archpriest, unless if our Most Holy Father is present and holds court, as it were, in the Basilica.

I respectfully submit to the wiser judgment of the Most Reverend Master of Ceremonies, m'lord Martin L, and to HH, the Pope Triple Tiara, the revival of a most ancient custom concerning the use of the golden fistula that is to be sanitized and sanctified for all papal celebrations, for the safety of the Pope when he visits the Lesser Known Basilica. The use of the fistula is an added security feature for the Basilica's rites, insofar as HH will celebrate Mass on a grand scale with less publicity.

Strong men have been enlisted as vergers as an extra precaution, and they are to wear cassocks for their office.

+Hedrin Card. Ep. Ostia

[ 21. October 2008, 14:05: Message edited by: Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known ]
 

---

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 


a fistula?

All WE know of a fistula is this.



Are you turning your Basilica into some sort of unsavoury haunt? The mentioning of strong men in cassocks seems to confirm that suspicion.

[ 21. October 2008, 14:17: Message edited by: Triple Tiara ]
 

---

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known:
Strong men have been enlisted as vergers as an extra precaution, and they are to wear cassocks for their office.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known:
Strong men have been enlisted as vergers as an extra precaution, and they are to wear cassocks for their office.

---

What colour, Your Archness?

---

Black, like everybody else's. Sarum cassocks are advisable as there are less buttons to undo for revealing pistols or daggers or assorted arms. Then again, as vergers, even their staves are sufficient in keeping at bay the sleeper and other troublemakers.

They'll be a new detachment of the Swiss Guard, although their uniform will be more clerical (save for the occasional breastplate and steel capello).
 

---

Posted by Max. (# 5846) on :
 
Hey Pope Trip,

Is it OK if I bring some of my Jesuit Bros to mass with me? We'll wear shoes I promise!


Cardinal Max.
 

---

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known:
Strong men have been enlisted as vergers as an extra precaution, and they are to wear cassocks for their office.

---

What colour, Your Archness?

---

Black, like everybody else's. Sarum cassocks are advisable as there are less buttons to undo ....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known:

quote:

---

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known:
Strong men have been enlisted as vergers as an extra precaution, and they are to wear cassocks for their office.

---

What colour, Your Archness?

---

Black, like everybody else's. Sarum cassocks are advisable as there are less buttons to undo ....

---

Fewer, dear. Fewer.

---

whoops! My apologies for poor grammar.

On the other hand, should they wear cinctures or fascias, too?
 

---

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
From the Desk of SPK, Governor the the Office of Papal Works:

Dear Bothers and Sisters in Christ:

As Governor, it is my solemn duty to provide for the financial security of the Holy See's activities. To that end, and noting that the Most Rev'd Cardinal of Ostia Antica's use of incense by the tonne, I have engaged in a series of futures, forward contracts, swaps, and other commercial transactions to provide a central source of incense. This will provide for decrease of 70% in the cost per tonne of incense.

It is my pious hope that all churches will switch to the new supply system, such that incense may be more regularly used, and costs decreased. The savings ought to be directed into other tat and frippery improvements, such as the immediate replacement of all cassock-albs, except in those provinces as contain Jesuits.

I can therefore humbly report that the indulgence revenues can therefore be preserved and directed to the glorification of our Most Holy Father's cathedral, basilicas, chapels, and other patrimony of the Holy See. We hope that this period of providence and stewardship may be a New Renaissance of religious art and pious works.

Yours in Faith,

SPK
 

---

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Max. (# 5846) on :
 
The Jesuits wish to bestow the Holy Father with $300,000 raised from our latest book.

We wish this money to be used at the Holy Father's pleasure.


Yours in Christ
Cardinal Max.
 

---

Posted by Triple Tiara (# 9556) on :
 


Well, at least it wasn't proceeds from the "Jesuit Vegetarian Cookbook"!

WE hand the funds over to SPK, to be invested at the service of the poor, under the direction of OUR brother ken.

<<<< Private Papal thought: if WE make ken a Cardinal, WE could call him red ken >>>>>
 

---

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
Accepted and cashed. Here's your receipt and Indulgence.

SPK, Governor of the Office of Papal Works and Receiver-General for the Holy See.

[ 21. October 2008, 23:37: Message edited by: Sober Preacher's Kid ]
 

---

Posted by Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known (# 11399) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
From the Desk of SPK, Governor the the Office of Papal Works:

Dear Bothers and Sisters in Christ:

As Governor, it is my solemn duty to provide for the financial security of the Holy See's activities. To that end, and noting that the Most Rev'd Cardinal of Ostia Antica's use of incense by the tonne, I have engaged in a series of futures, forward contracts, swaps, and other commercial transactions to provide a central source of incense. This will provide for decrease of 70% in the cost per tonne of incense.

* * *

Yours in Faith,

SPK

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:
The Jesuits wish to bestow the Holy Father with $300,000 raised from our latest book.

We wish this money to be used at the Holy Father's pleasure.


Yours in Christ
Cardinal Max.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by beachpsalms:
Good Lord.

I actually own that cookbook. Made the onion bread this week.

---

Is there no end to this Jesuit infiltration?

Where's the CDF when you need it?
 

---

Posted by Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known (# 11399) on :
 
They only appear when they're not expected, according to legend.
 

---

Posted by Sober Preacher's Kid (# 12699) on :
 
[Bows to the Cardinal of Ostia Antica]

My Lord Cardinal:

It has troubled me deeply that the Faithful may not partake of Holy Communion due to crass concerns about money. While just and honest trade is clearly right in the sight of the Lord, what you describe is to be deplored.

Hence I have been in deep conversation with the various Orders. They have agreed that in concert with my Office they shall endeavour to provide flour and wine of the highest quality from their farms, to be distributed from a central fund, the Mass Appeal to the Masses. I anticipate the savings will be the same level as that derived from the successful incense plan.

Lay oblates may affiliate with this new extension of the honourable religious orders, and obtain regular indulgences for work performed.

I must say the Benedictines have been very helpful in this regard, the Jesuits, not so much.

Therefore there should be no excuse for anything less then daily celebration of the Mass in any church, chapel, cathedral, basilica, or religious house, with incense of course.

My office has published stewardship guidelines that should allow a decent haze every day. If the Faithful can tell the images of Peter from Paul, then the incense budget is obviously being withheld improperly.

While your suggestion with regards to tiaras is appreciated, we do not consider such precious objects mere investments. They are part of the permanent patrimony of the Church and therefore will not be sold. The Office of Papal Works prefers solid Canadian bank paper for the daily work of providing for the support of the Church's mission.

Yours in Christ,

SPK
 

---

Posted by cor ad cor loquitur (# 11816) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:

Where's the CDF when you need it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
[Bows to the Cardinal of Ostia Antica]

My Lord Cardinal:

It has troubled me deeply that the Faithful may not partake of Holy Communion due to crass concerns about money. While just and honest trade is clearly right in the sight of the Lord, what you describe is to be deplored.

Hence I have been in deep conversation with the various Orders. They have agreed that in concert with my Office they shall endeavour to provide flour and wine of the highest quality from their farms, to be distributed from a central fund, the Mass Appeal to the Masses. I anticipate the savings will be the same level as that derived from the successful incense plan.

Lay oblates may affiliate with this new extension of the honourable religious orders, and obtain regular indulgences for work performed.

I must say the Benedictines have been very helpful in this regard, the Jesuits, not so much.

Therefore there should be no excuse for anything less then daily celebration of the Mass in any church, chapel, cathedral, basilica, or religious house, with incense of course.

My office has published stewardship guidelines that should allow a decent haze every day. If the Faithful can tell the images of Peter from Paul, then the incense budget is obviously being withheld improperly.

While your suggestion with regards to tiaras is appreciated, we do not consider such precious objects mere investments. They are part of the permanent patrimony of the Church and therefore will not be sold. The Office of Papal Works prefers solid Canadian bank paper for the daily work of providing for the support of the Church's mission.

Yours in Christ,

SPK

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
TO: MartinL, Master of Papal Ceremonies
FROM: Sober Preacher's Kid, Governor of the Office of Papal Works:

Brother in Faith:

Noting your need for increased liturgical resources, I have excellent contacts at Casavant Freres of Ste. Hyacinthe, Quebec. Their organ models frequently include trumpets controlled from the keyboard, especially in larger models of cathedral or basilica size.

See here.

I hope this is suitable, though I do not claim any particular knowledge. When it comes to increasing the tat and frippery of the Holy See, I humbly defer to my colleagues. Of course, no expense can be spared, which is not to say that we shouldn't get our money's worth.

Yours in Faith,

SPK, Governor of the Office of Papal Works

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cor ad cor loquitur:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:
You wouldn't want to help out in the Jesuits?

---

Of course not! My mission as prefect of the CDF -- should His Holiness so appoint me -- will be to hunt down and vaporise heretics. The Jesuits are harbouring plenty of heretics, let me tell you...and don't even get me started on the Anglicans...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin L:
PURCHASE ORDER:

Status: Urgent
To: Sober Preacher's Kid, Governor, Office of Papal Works
From: Martin L, Master of Papal Ceremonies

Item # MDLXII
Description: Pipe Organ, Large
Quantity: I

Item # MMD
Description: Add-on Pontifical Trumpets for Pipe Organ, Large
Quantity: I

Reason for request:
Increased support for liturgical music, St. Peter's Basilica, utilizing the savings earned from more efficient purchasing practices for church supplies such as incense.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rossweisse:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin L:
PURCHASE ORDER:

Status: Urgent
To: Sober Preacher's Kid, Governor, Office of Papal Works
From: Martin L, Master of Papal Ceremonies

Item # MDLXII
Description: Pipe Organ, Large
Quantity: I

Item # MMD
Description: Add-on Pontifical Trumpets for Pipe Organ, Large
Quantity: I

Reason for request:
Increased support for liturgical music, St. Peter's Basilica, utilizing the savings earned from more efficient purchasing practices for church supplies such as incense.

---

Oh, good.


(And no falsettists, for they are Icky and Edgy to my musically-attuned ears.)

Ross

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
all very well except for this point. I fear a successful rebellion by the castati will bring this to naught. Allegri's "Miserere" is nothing without them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rossweisse:
SPK, we're going to go galactic with the RSCM. High standards and good music will prevail everywhere in the Church Universal.

Resistance is Futile.

Ross, Chief Director of Music to the Papal Throne

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin L:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rossweisse:
SPK, we're going to go galactic with the RSCM. High standards and good music will prevail everywhere in the Church Universal.

Resistance is Futile.

Ross, Chief Director of Music to the Papal Throne

---

Ditto on ceremonial.

Do train your musicians to be able to sing and to see their music in an atmosphere redolent of incense. [Psalm 141]

Additionally, this office would be very interested in investigating the introduction of Solemn Vespers, at the very least on Saturday and Sunday evening. Furthermore, we would be interested in preceding the first Mass on Solemnities and Feasts with Sung Morning Prayer and the evening Mass on those same days with Sung Evening Prayer. Would sufficient interest and staffing be available to accommodate such a schedule?

Of course, presiding at said additional celebrations would be at the discretion of the pontiff. Were he not available, we would most likely invite the next seniormost bishop, the Cardinal-Bishop of Ostia, and thence down the seniority list.

---

quote:

---

DECREE OF PONTIFICAL APPOINTMENT

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