Thread: Eccles: Incense and thuribles Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :
 
It's time to get back to the real purpose of these boards
HT's suggestion was far too much too ignore.A counterpoint to the gin thread perhaps?
I personally am not too keen on it - or on gin! - but all sorts of questions come to mind.What sort of incense if any should we use?Are there asthmatic-free brands of incense?Should one chink or not?Should it be used as purely a processional ornament,or should it be more than that....
Which is the best incense?
Is it true that there are "No smoking" signs in the vestries of.....well never mind!


[edited thread title to add more information]

[ 29. August 2009, 10:58: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
 

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Posted by frater-frag (# 2184) on :
 
There are brands of incense that are less irritating then others. The main cause of allergic reactions are created by the burning coal!

At my parish, we once tried sk "low-allergic incense"... Only problem was that the damned thing burned three times faster than the usual stuff! So... I think you can imageing the clouds of smoke this caused...

Not to mention the reactions from those that was somewhat allergic...

Best way is to get some lab-rats from the pews, and experiment on them! If they can stand the particular blend, then use it!
 

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Posted by Ultraspike (# 268) on :
 
We blend our own incense and have a different blend for every season. Most of the commercial blends are too sickly sweet. But the most important thing is a clean thurible. It should be cleaned after every use, otherwise the resin builds up and burns the next time, creating an unpleasant odor. Cleaning (acetone is the best) also keeps the chains from getting sticky and not operating smoothly.

Coals are also important. If you have too many and not enough incense, you smell mostly the coals burning. If they are not big enough or hot enough (Kingsford is the best I think) the incense burns badly or not at all. So it's a delicate balance and takes practice.

As to clinking, I prefer a suble clink. Excessive clinking is vulgar, IMO, and calls too much attention to itself. However, I would love to get one of those Orthodox thuribles with the bells for certain occasions.
 

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Posted by Intrepid Thurifer (# 77) on :
 
Three Kings Pontifical is low smoking and has a wonderful smell. For those who like a low smoke zone. Glastonbury is also great but has a bit more smoke.
 

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Posted by Burma Shave (# 2572) on :
 
This may be a dumb question, but what is the significance and history of incense as part of a worship service, anyway? I was raised in a fairly uptight Calvinist family and never really experienced the incense thing until I went with a friend to a Christmas Eve mass at the RC cathedral in St. Augustine, Florida several years ago. Nowadays, I sometimes attend services at a nearby Episcopal church that does the incense thing.

This also sort of reminds me of a funny story about a former co-worker of mine. He was raised Roman Catholic, and decided that he really liked the smell of the incense used in his parish, as opposed to the little hippie-style incense sticks from his local head shop. So after some searching, he finally found the type of incense his parish uses, as well as the coal and a thurible. So he proudly headed home to fire the thing up.

What he quickly realized, however, is that the church-style incense, with coal and thurible, is designed to be used in a huge sanctuary space -- not a small apartment! His roomates came home to find fragrant smoke billowing out of the doors and windows.

Anyway, I thought it was funny...

-- David
Chicago, IL
 

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Posted by Nunc_Dimittis (# 848) on :
 
ROFLMAO Burma Shave!

I've contemplated doing that several times - but have been deterred by the fact that we do have a smoke alarm in the hallway. Grrr.

Hippy sticks are NOTHING compared to the real thing. Lots of people get turned off incense, thinking we use the foul hippy stick stuff in church...

*sigh* we use Pricknash: cathedral, basilica, abbey - whatever's in the cupboard. I do not like Sanctuary in their range - it's a bit tart.

I am a smoke girl myself, and favour subtle chinking in the right places. And it frustrates me when I see a thurifer who has no idea what he/she is doing... Please, can we have the right number of swings for persons in different positions? Is it really that hard to remember/control?

It's all in the technique. I am the only thurifer in my parish who does 360s. Is it that scary?
 

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Posted by Cusanus (# 692) on :
 
Now on the subject of clean thuribles... where does one get acetone these days? I couldn't find any this week Even For Ready Money. All the nail polish remover available seems to be proudly announcing its non-acetone status. What to do?
 

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Posted by Ultraspike (# 268) on :
 
Cusanus, I don't know where you live, but here in the States most hardware stores carry acetone. If you can't find it, olive oil works with alot of rubbing.
 

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Posted by Pax Britannica (# 1876) on :
 
So what brand? My vote:
Best of all time (the Chanel trophy) -- Rosa Mystica (nla, alas: WHY??!!).

Best of currently available (the Floris challenge cup) -- Basilica from Prinknash.

What does Bourne Street favour, Incensed? Poke around the dustbins after Benediction if you have to. We must know.

And US quick-lite charcoal is much better than any UK charcoal: it doesn't go out when Father over-enthusiatically puts ten spoonfuls on.

And keep them smoking handbags clean -- USpike is right.
 

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Posted by Ultraspike (# 268) on :
 
SMV NYC has the best incense, specially blended in their basement by their incensemeister, who lives in Phoenix and comes once a year to mix it up. It would be nice, though, if they cleaned their thuribles more than once a year. When I was there for a couple of years I insisted on cleaning them once a month and they thought I was tres outre.

Quik-lites will never get the smoke that real coals do. They don't get hot enough or last long enough. Kingsford regular is the best if you have a gas burner to heat them up. Most places don't these days so they just use quik-lites because you can light them with a match.

What kind of setup does Bourne Street have? Come on, Incensed, let's have all the smoky details.
 

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Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
A gas burner! Thank you Ultra! You take me back to the Advent, which has a big old bunsen burner in the smoke sacristy. I'd forgotten about it, and so didn't realize why the custom I have seen here of lighting the charcoal on a candle-end seemed so odd.
 

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Posted by Ultraspike (# 268) on :
 
We have just one bunsen burner type gas jet which is adequate, but SMV has two gas rings like an actual stove top which is marvelous, esp. for two-thurible events. They have a special smokeroom which we covet tremendously, although it lacks the sink and window which are big assets to ours (which is in the corner of the sacristy). When burning real charcoal one must have proper ventilation, as it says on the label, otherwise you risk death by carbon monoxide! (So that's what happened to all their thurifers... )
 

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Posted by CorgiGreta (# 443) on :
 
Quoting from "A Guest at Cambridge" by George H, Guest: "...[the choir] should be able to breathe pure, unadulterated air, free from the smell of both incense and stale cassocks."

Apparently St. John's was kept smoke-free for musical, if not liturgical, reasons during his tenure at St. John's Chapel.

I have, however, heard absolutely sublime music sung when the smoke was so thick the church looked like a cigar bar. The same has been true when the choir was quite fragrant due to musty vestments and/or widespread halitosis or alcohol-breath.

Greta
 

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Posted by Intrepid Thurifer (# 77) on :
 
If one can't get acetone which is fairly expensive anyway, try using Mineral Turpentine that will clean away the resin we use it at our parish
 

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Posted by Pax Britannica (# 1876) on :
 
Simple paint stripper will get the toughest gunk off, but it's nasty stuff.

Available in the UK, Polyclens, that invaluable blue liquid used for cleaning paint brushes, is quite effective for light use -- it contains acetone, that's why.

And when using metal polish, do get the chains really clean afterwards -- Father doesn't like old Brasso all over his hands at the offertory.
 

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Posted by PaulTH (# 320) on :
 
Burma Shave asked about the history of the use of incense. I think it goes back to antiquity in human worship. In Numbers 16.17 Moses says to Korah "Each man is to take his censer and put incense in it-250 censers in all-and present it before the Lord." The Jewish Temple worship at the time of Jesus certainly employed much ritual.

I don't know when its use became widespread in Christian worship of if it was from the start. Perhaps someone can answer that. I always think its a protestant myth that the early Christians worshipped at a plain wooden table with a loaf and a cup of grape juice. Perhaps when they met in secret, they sometimes did so in spartan conditions, but all the churches close to the cradle of Christianity such as the Oriental Orthodox churches are very ritualistic and absolutely douse their churches in incense.

As one brought up a protestant, but becoming more catholic with age, I am only getting used to the use of incense now. Sometimes it makes me sneeze or feel nauseous. I don't have a problem with it, but for me it ads nothing to a fine liturgy.
 

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Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :
 
From my vague recollections of Dix,I believe Dom Gregory says that in the East incense was accepted pretty early in the Church.In the West it took quite a bit longer as incense became associated with imperial persecution (Christians having to offer incense before a representation of the Emperor or else)
However it's a while since I read "Shape of the Liturgy" so I may have my facts wrong....
 

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Posted by Puseyite (# 2546) on :
 
As to the antiquity/universality of the use of incense in worship:

I can't remember where I picked up this particular item, but somewhere I read that incense has long been considered the appropriate offering to a deity (in many faiths) because it is completely consumed in its use, leaving no remains behind to be disposed of. Moreover, the smoke rises, like the prayers of the faithful (this is an example of the allegorization of the liturgy that I mentioned in another post) -- "Let my prayers be set forth in Thy sight as the incense, and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice."

On a different subject: I have almost always seen the thurifer swing the censer at the altar during the Sanctus, but I can find no liturgical authority for it. Can anyone corroborate?
 

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Posted by Ultraspike (# 268) on :
 
I think swinging during the Sanctus probably became the norm in some places for the practical purpose of keeping the coals going between the censings at the Offertory and the censings at the elevations. We have the thurifer retire into the chapel during this interval where they may do what they must to keep the coals going, out of sight, and then reappear at the end of the Benedictus. Most churches I suppose don't have this option and the thurifer simply remains in place in the sanctuary. This is just my theory.
 

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Posted by Regina Caeli (# 2343) on :
 
I seem to have chosen the best time to notice this thread. I thought I'd take the opportunity to ask about what exactly to do with the thurible at the Sanctus.

Now, I've been told that you give it a full circle for each Sanctus and swing violently until the 'hosanna un excelsis' of the Benedictus.

However, I, like Puseyite have not found it in 'Ceremonies of the Roman Rite' and have been told that 'Ritual Notes' makes no mention of this pracrice either, both books that go into explicit detail.

Any enlightenment?

Also, I'm glad Stephen mentioned Dix in response to PaulTH's post, as that's the publication that instantly came to my mind as well. I think you've hit the nail on the head Ste.

When Christianity became the 'state religion' (anachronistic?) of the Roman empire, it's ceremonial adopted many of the practices of the Imperialist state. Incense was used to herald the emperor and other civil dignitaries; the amount of incense increasing with honour.

Bishops then received this honour and incense took on within the church the significance of honouring.

The Most Blessed Sacrament, and rites surrounding it, as a result became fumigated.

Many OT verses make reference to the purifying aspect of fire/coal & the like and so incense also came to symbolise purifying/ sanctifying. This would explain its use at the offertory to 'make holy' the oblations to be offered, the altar on which they are offered, and the priestly people offering them.

Sorry, I got carried away, not all of that is from Dix. I've picked up bits and bobs from various sources.
 

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Posted by Jengie (# 273) on :
 
Just to give the non-conformist myth to the inclusion of incense.

It became common place when Constantine decided that the official faith of the Roman Empire should be Christianity.

It was used prior to that in Roman life to stop disease spreading from the crowds to the officials. When Christianity was the official religion, then the officials became important people in church structure but were unwilling to forgo this cleansing priveledge so incense had to be incorporated into worship. The spiritualising of it came after. It of course would still be early.

Jengie
 

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Posted by Nunc_Dimittis (# 848) on :
 
I will check Ritual Notes on this RC, but what I learnt, and what I have observed re thurible and the Sanctus was:

The bell is rung three times. At each ring, the thurifer swings the thurible thrice in the manner of censing someone/thing. (Assuming he/she is kneeling before the Altar...) The Thurifer then continues to swing the thurible in small rapid arcs side to side until the Agnus Dei, repeating the censing figure at the elevation of both elements.

I don't know if this is correct.
 

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Posted by Ultraspike (# 268) on :
 
I've never seen the type of censing ND describes at the Sanctus. Sounds like creative ritual to me.
 

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Posted by Nunc_Dimittis (# 848) on :
 
Why, what do you do at the Sanctus, US?
 

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Posted by Ultraspike (# 268) on :
 
As I said a few posts ago, the thurifer retires to the chapel, out of sight, to stoke the coals and wait for the end of the Benedictus to reappear.

Most churches, I think, don't have a convenient place for the thurifer to retire to as we do, and so have the thurifer merely stand in place, swinging gently to keep the coals going. I've never seen the kind of censing you described during the Sanctus. Perhaps Puseyite can research this burning issue for us. I think someone said already the ceremonials are silent on what the thurifer is to do between the Offertory and the censings at the Consecration so perhaps some local customaries call for creativity...
 

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Posted by Pax Britannica (# 1876) on :
 
yes, but what brands, shipmates, do the great shrines use? -- I can't believe you all make up your own...

Name names, and tell us what you like..
 

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Posted by Fiddleback (# 395) on :
 
Elmore 'Evesham' which is very piquant seems to suit our angular Gothic pile. Have tried Prinknash 'Basilica' recently on the recommendation of some of the aficionados on this ship, but it doesn't seem right here.
 

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Posted by Cosmo (# 117) on :
 
Prinknash 'Basilica' is horrible stuff in comparison to 'Priory'. Suitable only for the most Lenten of days.

Rosa Mystica is sadly no longer obtainable in its original form. I know not why; only that the monks who blended the original mixture seem to have taken the secret to the grave. Indeed even its original form is so old that it gives off a nasty scent akin to Grandmother's Talcum Powder.

Cosmo
 

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Posted by maniple (# 2237) on :
 
Rosa Mystica is great for special occasions such as Theotokian celebrations and should be kept for such occasions and not burnt at Low Masses. Dark coloured incense with Gold bits included looks wonderful in the boat.

Maniple.
 

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Posted by Pax Britannica (# 1876) on :
 
I was immensely fond of my grandmother, which is perhaps why I love(d) Rosa Mystica...

But Maniple, you imply you have a secret source? Are those poor monks perhaps still slaving away for you, but in Another Place?
 

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Posted by Ascension-ite (# 1985) on :
 
We at Ascension and St Agnes in DC do exactly as Nunc describes above, I would have thought most churches do this. The thurifer censes each element as one would cense a prerson/thing all the time while kneeling at the altar. Is this unusual in AC circles?
 

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Posted by Ultraspike (# 268) on :
 
I think we were talking about the Sanctus, Ascensionite. Nunc says they do a double censing for each bell at the Sanctus, which I've never heard of. What exactly are you censing, the bells?
 

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Posted by Ascension-ite (# 1985) on :
 
Never mind. Wasn't paying rapt attention, we don't cense the bells at the sanctus, in fact the thurifer is standing at the sacristy door at that point. Sounds like a very odd practice. As for our brand of incense we usually use Prinknash "abbey" I beleive, sometimes Elmore Abbey's brand as well and sometimes straight frankincense.
 

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Posted by Pax Britannica (# 1876) on :
 
I'm not sure it's seemly to have the thurifer just hanging around until Agnus Dei -- he should just leave after he's done his job, tho' perhaps at the end of the Eucharistic Prayer to avoid distractions (though in advanced Roman churches he often leaves right after the elevations, on the basis that the choir are still warbling away during the Sacred Silent Canon and no-one is paying attention anyway).

There is a very bizarre custom over here of censing the Elements as they are slightly elevated at the Doxology of the EP, and ringing the bells too. Surely one of those weird Episcky inventions?
 

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Posted by Ultraspike (# 268) on :
 
They do that at SMV, the censing and bells at the "by whom and with whom" and the end of the consecration. I thought it was a Fr. Wells invention. Where else does it?
 

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Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :
 
They used to ring the bells at the end of the Prayer of Consecration with the Elevation of the elements in St.George's Cullercoats.Now no longer sadly;they have gone for the corrupt practice of ringing the bells at the Words of Institution
Grrrr
 

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Posted by Nunc_Dimittis (# 848) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ultraspike:
I think we were talking about the Sanctus, Ascensionite. Nunc says they do a double censing for each bell at the Sanctus, which I've never heard of. What exactly are you censing, the bells?

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No we don't cense the bells!!! LOL

How to explain this?

OK. One does the Offertory - censes everyone and everything necessary to eternal salvation - then pops back into the sacristry to top up on the incense/check coals are ok etc etc... I usually try to resurface in the sanctuary just after the sursum corda; on of the other servers makes sure there is a hassock in the right place in the middle of the sanctuary, and one kneels there smack bang in the middle, in front of the altar, swinging the thurible and hopefully creating billows of smoke.

When the Sanctus comes round, at each of the words, "Holy, holy, holy" the bell (we are a bit strange in that we use the sanctus bell for Benediction, and the Benediction gong for mass) is struck. At each of the strikings of the bell one swings the thurible upwards, as though censing someone/something - towards the Sacrament I guess (though not yet consecrated obviously). Now I don;t know about how you do it, but from the way I read Ritual Notes, the celebrant gets 3 swings, as does the bishop if present, deacon/subdeacon get 2 swings if in orders, if not, a single swing... etc etc

A single swing - ie one unit - consists of two movements of the thurible towards the person/object censed. If more than one swing is involved, there is usually a slight pause at the bottom of the second movement thus:

-> -> . -> -> .

If a censing a group:

middle <- -> .

So: when censing during the sanctus, there are 2 swings for every "Holy":

(holy/dong)-> -> . (holy/dong)-> -> . (holy/dong)-> -> . then back to swinging normally. This same pattern happens for the elevation of each element.

(genuflect/dong) -> -> . (elevation/dong) -> -> . (genuflect/dong) -> ->.

Please don't take this like I think you are all simpletons; you know more than I/have done this longer than I...

Is this any different to what you do?

And if so, how, why?
 

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Posted by Nunc_Dimittis (# 848) on :
 
Whoops I mean - one swing for every Holy... = two movements.
 

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Posted by Regina Caeli (# 2343) on :
 
Doesn't the bishop get three treble, rather than double swings at the Offertory?

As for the swings during the Sanctus, I suppose it's difficult to swing full circle if you're going to be kneeling. And apparently, I'm not the only one who does this, though I cannot at this moment find the Mystery Worship to link to. I think it was in NZ.

I know S Elisabeth's Reddish don't have elevations after the Words of Institution, but only at the Doxology and Great Amen to illustrate the consecratory nature of the entire Eucharistic Prayer.

Though I agree with the theology of this, I still see the Words of Consecration, (along with the epiklesis) as being central and give three swings (again at full length) to the Blessed Sacrament at each elevation.

However we have no standard practice. It really just depends on who the thurifer is at that particular liturgy. We have one who doesn't seem to notice the elevations at all, but just swings from side to side throughout the entire Prayer.
 

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Posted by frater-frag (# 2184) on :
 
At my church, S:t Hans(short for John) in Linköping/Sweden we use one swing for the thurifer, two for priests and three for the guys in the funny hats!

Our church is a shoe-box made of bricks, consecrated in 1973. The altar rests on a podium, ca 30 cm high. No steps to the altar...
So, my decision is that the Thurifer is to stand/kneel on the northern side of the altar, slightly behind it. We are using the Versus Populem rite...
No place to retreat to, during canon, so... instead I stay put, on my knees until Pax, then I, after exchanging pax with the celebrant, I simply retreat to my seat, hang up the thuribel and go on with the show!

And, yes, we use "Three Kings" as our favorit choice of incense!
 

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Posted by Abouna (# 290) on :
 
Ultraspike:

I can help you with a belled-censer if you would like one. Just le me know.

Abouna

As to clinking, I prefer a suble clink. Excessive clinking is vulgar, IMO, and calls too much attention to itself. However, I would love to get one of those Orthodox thuribles with the bells for certain occasions.[/QB][/QUOTE]

 

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Posted by Ultraspike (# 268) on :
 
Abouna, YES, definitely interested. See my PM.

Thanks!
 

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Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
Did a funeral today, and before it started, the priest darted over to the "choir vestry" to tuck his suitcoat into the closet with the server albs, commenting that he had some sort of social occasion later in the day and didn't want his coat to smell of incense since it clashed with his cologne. I jokingly suggested that he should find a cologne that coordinated with the incense and he replied that we should let the monks know about this request.

I happen to like that fact that after a funeral I get whiffs of incense from my hair at random moments for the rest of the day.

So, shipmates, which colognes and aftershaves go with which incenses?
 

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Posted by BirettaBoy (# 2770) on :
 
I was very interested to learn of the differing practices of censing/incense preferences in the discussion so far. Personally I adhere to the rubrics of Fr Fortuescue as to double/single incensations. We also ring the bell and Cense at the "...Through Him, with him..."

I have never been able to find any instructions as to when the thurifer should come or go during the canon, and I remain in the sanctuary, swinging throughout (with the lid open), EXCEPT at the Santus, when I stop swinging and bow.

As to incence preferences, we use Basilica for most Masses (good amount of smoke, fragrant), with our small amont of Rosa mystica reserved for v special occasions!

I heard a rumour that Rosa mystica was 20% Cannabis Resin! I have no idea whether this is true, but it could explain why it is so beloved of all thurifers and Priests I know!
 

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Posted by Abu Wuza (# 614) on :
 

quote:

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in S:t Hans in Linköping/Sweden we use one swing for the thurifer, two for priests and three for the guys in the funny hats!

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Fraggie, is this Svenska kyrkan you're talking about? (Not familiar with your Lincopensian situation.)

If yes, then I can only say I'm most sincerely --why can you use incense when we don't?

pax,
AW
 

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Posted by frater-frag (# 2184) on :
 
Yes this "Svenska Kyrkan"(church of sweden)that I´m refering to!

Since many people claims that they are allergic to incense, we simply have some extra services, where we use incense to our hearts delight!

This means that you can see a sunday evening mass announced as "mass with incense".

Those that don´t want it can visit the regular highmass at 1100, the rest of us can stay in bed...

Why you can´t use incense I can´t understand!
Except for reasons named above!
 

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Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :
 
From a new thread on Incense

quote:

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Originally posted by stbruno:
My nose tells me that various kinds of incense are used at Mass depending on the Feast day being celebrated. For instance at Class 1 feasts I'm sure I detect rose oil, while on ordinary Sundays it justs smells like the usual mix.

So are there any rules re incense or is it purely a matter of taste?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Degs:
Practice in my last parish was:

Rose for Our Lady

Frankincense or 'Three Kings' for Christmas and Epiphany

'Pontifical' when the Bishop popped in and for Easter

and good old Prinknash 'Basilica' for the other occasions.

Purely my personal taste!!

Nowadays I have to use whatever is on offer in the parishes I visit.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Merseymike:
One of our parishioners brought back this amazingly pungent incense from a Greek holiday. It not only smelled like the Body Shop writ large, but also seemed to combine with the charcoal to produce the most thick smoke I have ever seen. The sound of coughing in the pews was reminiscent of a smoker's convention!

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quote:

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Originally posted by A name I call myself:
The Body Shop smells of nothing. So there

I used to work at The body Shop, and there's litle more annoying that people coming in and going "Ooooh! Doesn't it smell lovely!" when you can't smell a thing.

That aside, an ordinand currently on placement at my own parish church commented "I've never seen a church with such a small congregation have so many types of incense".

We were proud.

Me x

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Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :
 
I can't believe I started this thread!!
So what do people think of 360* swings then?
When should they be done?
 

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Posted by seasick (# 48) on :
 
360° swings remind me of cheerleaders and suchlike - I think that they're entirely inappropriate, and somewhat over the top.
 

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Posted by frater-frag (# 2184) on :
 
The only time that a 360° is allowed is when you are warming up the coals!
 

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Posted by Duo Seraphim (# 3251) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Stephen:
I can't believe I started this thread!!
So what do people think of 360* swings then?
When should they be done?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Angelus Domini.:

quote:

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From the blessing of incense at the Ofertory:
Through the intercession of Blessed Michael, the Archangel, who standeth at the right hand of the altar of incense, and of all his elect, may the Lord voucjsafe to + bless this incense, and receive it as a sweet-smelling savour.

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...or something like that anyway, I couldn't find it on google, so went off memory.

The problem is, it isn't a sweet-smelling savour.

I was recently appointed Sacristan, and thought I'd get the sacristy in order. Among the things I did was to arrange the incense that we had in some sort of seasonal arrangement so that it wasn't a case of 'what thurifer fancies today'.

We had 'Gums of Arabia', which I kept for the rest of Ordinary Time; 'Basilica', which was the nicesat of the lot, which I kept for Easter, and some other not quite so nice stuff (unlabelled), that I thought would be appropriate for Lent.

Now last night, we reverted to the Lenten scent, and after the Gospel, I swiftly made my way to the sacristy to change to Basilica, as it was absolutely vile. As Fr Degs pointed out, it smelt of Harpic.

Now although we aren't a rich parish, I have a bit of leeway when it comes to buying stuff like this.

So...

What's decent? What do you use for the various seasons. I'm guessing some version of Rose for Feasts of Our Lady, 'Three Kings' for Epiphany, 'Pontifical' for Pontifical visits (though it is sickly sweet).

I'd like some ideas for Lent especially, and perhaps Easter. What do you think is seasonally neutral enough to be used in Ordinary Time, but not disgusting at the same time?

Please help.

Thanks,

AD x

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quote:

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What do you think is seasonally neutral enough to be used in Ordinary Time, but not disgusting at the same time?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Angelus Domini.:
Frankincense is very pungent. That isn't to say it's a bad thing. But I'm just thinking of when it would be appropriate for. Were you suggesting it for Lent?

AD x

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sacristan:
Degs,
I have never had a problem getting Three Kings...It's as common as dirt around here.

By the way, Do most of you use a brand straight out of the box? In our parish we concoct our own blend, not from scratch, but rather from a mixture of several commercially available ones. That way we can control the burning rate a little better and the scent is rather nice too.

---

Do you have recipes?

Our supplier of 'Three Kings' gets it from Holland, so it's hit and mis when it's available.

D+
 

---

Posted by diapason (# 4230) on :
 
My first post - be gentle with me....
We have a well-kitted out incense cupboard, but none of it (including Priory, Basilica, or indeed any of the Prinknashes & Eveshams)smells to me like good old fashioned proper stuff, with the exception of a tiny box of 'Prinknash Incense' (no subtype specified)I bought years ago at Prinknash. Is it just me, or does anyone know what I mean?
The Faith House bookshop in Tufton St London does orthodox incense in all sorts of exotic hues (rose, lemon geranium, amber, cypress etc) but it's expensive. We use quite a bit of it in mixtures, but still not quite 'right'.
 

---

Posted by Degs (# 2824) on :
 
Welcome aboard diapason.

Yes, I know, those exotics are rather pricey, but worth it for special occasions.

D+
 

---

Posted by Raspberry Rabbit (# 3080) on :
 
We've decided I hope that 360 degree swings with the thurible are definitely out?

Raspberry Rabbit
Postmaster
Ulan Bator, Mongolia
The Voice of Moderation
 

---

Posted by Raspberry Rabbit (# 3080) on :
 
Diapason writes

quote:

---

The Faith House bookshop in Tufton St London does orthodox incense in all sorts of exotic hues (rose, lemon geranium, amber, cypress etc) but it's expensive. We use quite a bit of it in mixtures, but still not quite 'right'.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Raspberry Rabbit:
We've decided I hope that 360 degree swings with the thurible are definitely out?

---

Good heavens. Why?

Thanks for your PM, sacristan. Git it safe and sound.
 

---

Posted by boyinthebands (# 4040) on :
 
This Three Kings incense -- I think I bought some tonight. In an Arab grocery in the suburbs. (With a nice box of tea, a jar of tahini, a mango -- and a roll of charcoal.)

It is a small pack -- plastic and sealed, and the package looks curiously like a packet of peanuts.

"circa 30 g" for $1.99 -- which seems high. It is made in Holland.

Is this the stuff?

Stuck the pack on my flatbed scanner
 

---

Posted by stbruno (# 3505) on :
 
sure is..though you have a domestic size pack...not the church size jumbo box.
 

---

Posted by boyinthebands (# 4040) on :
 
Thanks! Perhaps its for a house church!

(if I had about $40 to spare, I would have gotten another product there -- a rather strange looking electric incense burner. Runs on 110 V. Nifty, if a potiental fire hazard.)
 

---

Posted by Angelus Domini. (# 2343) on :
 
I know there was a thread that where someone asked advice about cleaning a thurible that had got to a terrible state.

I cannot currently find the thread, and have found myself ina similar situation, having inherited a thurbible that was about to go, a delightful thurifer last Sunday, decided to leave the lit charcoal in the thurible after Mass, thus melting all of the the resin build-up in the lid. This proceeded to leak out of the thurible, and has now solidified.

I recall that the advice given last time round was to boil it for a few hours (which, I imagine can be most aromatic), but after I have done this, what is the best method of keeping it clean? Are there any particular products, which, if used regularly, can avoid such a build-up recurring?

Do tell.

Thanks, AD x
 

---

Posted by kingsfold (# 1726) on :
 
AD, I suggest you get in touch with Ultraspike.

If I recall correctly, 'twas she who provided the answer as to how to clean a thoroughly gunked up thurible. I have a feeling that acetone and/or blow torches came into it somewhere, but can't remember enough of the detail to be much help.

As a matter of interest, can one line the dish that the coals and the incense go in with tinfoil to prevent the resin solidifying and making a dreaful mess?
 

---

Posted by Incensed (# 2670) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by kingsfold:
AD,

As a matter of interest, can one line the dish that the coals and the incense go in with tinfoil to prevent the resin solidifying and making a dreaful mess?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by boyinthebands:
"circa 30 g" for $1.99 -- which seems high. It is made in Holland.

Is this the stuff?

---

One does assume we are talking about incense and not some other material that comes from Holland and also has an exotic smell. Good for asthmatics I hear.
 

---

Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
Here is Tat Tip of the Week , which unfortunately does not have the original discussion which included the use of a blow torch.
 

---

Posted by Adrian1 (# 3994) on :
 
Much as it grieves me, I have to disagree with my good friend Cosmo. Prinknash 'Basilica' is, in my opinion, one of the best forms of incense - if not the best - and given a choice I would use it every time.

Raspberry Rabbit. Be careful with the Orthodox incense. It's very strong stuff and you don't need much of it to get a powerful effect.
 

---

Posted by saecula saeculorum (# 2883) on :
 
We want to make our own. Has anyone done so? How?

360s are obligatory in any church larger than a shoe box.
 

---

Posted by Angelus Domini. (# 2343) on :
 
Thank you all for your helpful replies.

Regarding use of acetone, would I be able to purchase this from a hardware store as such, or am I after the old fashioned nail-polish-remover?

Thanks.

We use Basilica during Ordinary Time. I like it.

During Easter, we use 'Gloria', which is sweet but very subtle, and so allows for delightful things like the Orthodox 'Gardenia' to be added to it, without them overpowering the Faithful.

Lent and Passiontide get 'Evesham', while Christmass and Epiphany get 'Three Kings'.

Advent and Feasts of Our Lady get 'Gloria' mixed with the Orthodox 'Rose'.

AD x
 

---

Posted by Ultraspike (# 268) on :
 
You can buy acetone at most hardware stores, at least in these parts. Nail polish remover is acetone, usually, but you'll pay alot more to buy it that way.

Anyone wishing to know how to make incense may PM me. We make ours and it is a bit of a process, but I think it's much better than the commercial brands, which are usually nauseatingly sweet, IMHO. Finding the right ingredients is the hardest part, and then getting the right blend is also tricky, but well worth the effort.
 

---

Posted by Degs (# 2824) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angelus Domini.:
Christmass and Epiphany get 'Three Kings'.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by -blood-and-fire-:
You get 3 types of thurifers. Ones that go wild and 360 all the way down the aisle, just about hot-box the church and cling like the bells of Canterbury Cathedral.
Then there is the kind that hold the thurible half way down the chains and hardly swing it at all, with one or two wisps of smoke because Father has smothered the one or two cold coals.
Then you get the mid-way thurifer.

Which do you prefer?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angelus Domini.:
I was unable to obtain any pure acetone, only the diluted stuff in the form of old-fashioned nail polish remover.

---

Whose?

quote:

---

However, Father was able to produce some ethanol, which did the trick.

---

Ah, the Sanctifex!
 

---

Posted by Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf (# 1283) on :
 
I don't believe it. I don't believe it. I DON'T BELIEVE IT!!!!!!

This evening at mass they burnt the oils. In. The. Thurible. AAAAAGGGGGHHHH!!!!

There were orange FLAMES going a couple of inches out of the bowl. The chains are smoke-blacked, as is the lid.

I'm cleaning it on Saturday. AghAghAgh!!

Anyone got a blowtorch I can borrow?
 

---

Posted by Degs (# 2824) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf:
I don't believe it. I don't believe it. I DON'T BELIEVE IT!!!!!!

This evening at mass they burnt the oils. In. The. Thurible. AAAAAGGGGGHHHH!!!!

There were orange FLAMES going a couple of inches out of the bowl. The chains are smoke-blacked, as is the lid.

I'm cleaning it on Saturday. AghAghAgh!!

Anyone got a blowtorch I can borrow?

---

AD and I concur on the following advice:

take the thurible and hit the celebrant with it repeatedly, then strangle said celebrant with the chains.

Finally flame the celebrant with the blowtorch!
 

---

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :
 
Did The Boy allow this to happen JTO-D? If so, things are worse than we thought.
 

---

Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Degs:


AD and I concur on the following advice:

take the thurible and hit the celebrant with it repeatedly, then strangle said celebrant with the chains.

Finally flame the celebrant with the blowtorch!

---

Gives a new meaning to 'flaming'does it not
These things happen in even the best-ordered churches which have no more than two lights upon the Holy Table
That's why liturgy is such fun.....
But I'm sure this would never have happened in HH Mar Adrian 1's private chapel
 

---

Posted by Panis Angelicus (# 3795) on :
 
Jellied methylene chloride does a very nice job of removing thurible gunk.
 

---

Posted by Sacristan (# 3548) on :
 
Next time suggest that the oils be consumed in the sanctuary lamps. If not, perhaps you can pour the oils on the clergy and make "living flames". Think...How dramatic! For all those persons who think symbols need to be bold...How perfect!
 

---

Posted by Ultraspike (# 268) on :
 
Why did they burn the oils? Is this what you do with leftover chrism and oil of catechumens? I've never thought about what happens to the old stock when the new is brought in. What do other people do with them? I guess you can't pour them down the piscina as that would cause a clog.
 

---

Posted by Angelus Domini. (# 2343) on :
 
Morning all!

Yes US,

The remaining Sacred Oils are properly consumed with fire when the new ones arrive from the Chrism Mass. I have known this to be done in the Easter Vigil fire (without ceremony), but like the preparation of the Lenten ashes from the previous year's palm crosses, this is a practival thing that needn't have any ceremony attached to it, and can easily be done in a bowl at home.

AD x
 

---

Posted by TonyK (# 35) on :
 
We now burn the 'old' oils during Holy Week before the new bottles are collected from the the Cathedral on Maundy Thursday.

It started a few years ago when several years worth of oils were discovered in a cupboard (not the approved place!!). There was so much that we had a mass burning on cotton wool in a biscuit-tin in the churchyard. (It took about an hour on a cold night!). Since then we have experimented with various ways, but have usually had to resort to the biscuit-tin, which hardly seems liturgical!

On a trip to the British Museum (before a London Meet at the Museum Tavern, as it happens!) I found I could buy a replica 'roman' oil-lamp in the gift shop - about £8. We have used it successfully this year, burning during services either on the nave altar or at the foot of a large wooden cross, and have properly disposed of all the oils before today. The only problem is that it seems to burn down the wick as well - I shall have to find a replacement for next year or manufacture something out of cotton wool!

If anyone wants details, please pm or email me. I think the museum runs a website/mail order service. Failing that I could pop in next time I am at a London Meet and 'bulk-buy!
 

---

Posted by Joan the Outlaw-Dwarf (# 1283) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spike:
Did The Boy allow this to happen JTO-D? If so, things are worse than we thought.

---

I am, of course, no longer at St Boy's, being now ensconsed at DOD's church (see 'location' ).

I have just seen the thurible and am grieving . A trip to B&Q (hardware store) is going to be in order, methinks.

They have apparently done this with the leftover oils since time immemorial. This might explain the state of the thurible when we got here...

Next year I will gently suggest taking the inner bowl OUT of the thurible, lining it with tinfoil and putting it on a biscuit-tin lid.

You don't want to know what the inside of the lid looks like...
 

---

Posted by -blood-and-fire- (# 4377) on :
 
Please could you give me your comments on BOAT BOYS.

Are they a must?? I find them a bit of a pain. 6 or 7 year old boys can't sit still for more than 5 minutes (right?) and the thurifer spends most of his time keeping the boat boy in order.

I tried to get an older boy (10) to be boat but our rector had a cow and said "there will be no ship boys in this parish."

If there is no boat boy, I carry the boat against my chest with thurible in other hand. When loading the thurible I GIVE the boat to the celebrant to hold. Then at least I can concentrate on tending the thurible and not tending the boat boy!
 

---

Posted by Ethel Sludge (# 74) on :
 
For what it's worth, my son, bane of pious old ladies' devotions and recipeint of dozens of filthy glares every Sunday became a boat boy at the age of 5. Whenever on duty, he desisted from fidgeting and took things very seriously. When back in the pews, he carried on as usual. If he wasn't a server now he is his teens, I doubt that he would be such a willing churchgoer or that he would have the faith he has.
 

---

Posted by Regina Cæli (# 2343) on :
 
I agree with Ethel Sludge.

I find boat bearers (not necessarily boys!) abit of a hassle as well, and admittedly, they are unnecesary. However, this is one of the many opportunities we have to highlight the accessibility of the liturgy to little people, without doing the most abominable cheesey things that one so often sees in our churches, and to be honest, is the sort of patronising nonsense that often later puts them off church.

It is also a good way to get younger servers accustomed to the preparations for Mass, and correct conduct in the sanctuary, before giving them too many duties.

We have recently had the prospect of three new young servers, and although having a boat bearere is noyt the norm for us, I think I shall employ them as such for a while, and then move them onto other things. Of course, we will need a patient thurifer to take them under wing and guide them. Shame we don't have more patient servers who are willing to welcome newer, less experienced servers. Then people complain about shortages.

Oh and BTW, if there is no boat bearer, you hand the boat to the Deacon, not the Celebrant. If no Deacon is present, it is perfectly possible to manage both thurible and boat in a dignified and safe manner.

RC x
 

---

Posted by Degs (# 2824) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Regina Cæli:
Oh and BTW, if there is no boat bearer, you hand the boat to the Deacon, not the Celebrant. If no Deacon is present, it is perfectly possible to manage both thurible and boat in a dignified and safe manner.

---

Quite right AD. Also, some celebrants are very well able to handle a boat, having been thurifers themselves, (and some even boat bearers!).

So, if you entrust the boat to some young person, who knows where it might lead!
 

---

Posted by Degs (# 2824) on :
 
ooooops

I go and put the Regina Caeli in my sig, and then forget, and call you AD.
 

---

Posted by -blood-and-fire- (# 4377) on :
 
I see what you are saying Ethel and Regina. You have changed my perception almost compeletly. If you get them when they are young, they are more likely to stay?? And, yes, it is an oppourtinity for the little people to be involved in the liturgy.

Maybe the boat boy could walk with the MC in procession so as not to cramp the thurifer's 'style'.

I'll try get some patience going for boat boys (yes, boys! for some reason the idea of boat girl to me is just not right. I know it is wrong of me, but I can't help it.)
 

---

Posted by Regina Cæli (# 2343) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by -blood-and-fire-:
If you get them when they are young, they are more likely to stay??

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Regina Cæli:
Children and young people, and most people for that matter, find their spirituality enriched by bold liturgy, whether it be solid Evangelical or solid Catholic. A watered-down, nonsensical, half-hearted, mix n' match version of these traditions is what puts children and me off. It is so very banal, with bits of different traditions used here and there in a really self-conscious way, with no attachment to their actual meaning.

So yes, I believe that children can develop a faith based on what they see in proper worship, and this can grow and be nourished by the church, but I do not believe that we should offer some sort of special alternative, and then leave them out in the dark when they get to a certain age, as this will ensure that they leave.

---

Well said RC!

"From middle-of-the-road religion: Good Lord deliver us"

(That is in the Litany isn't it?)
 

---

Posted by Intrepid Thurifer (# 77) on :
 
Does anyone know where I can purchase rose incense. I believe it was called "Rosa Mystica" the one I am looking for. But if anyone knows of any other rose incense please let me know
 

---

Posted by Regina Cæli (# 2343) on :
 
As the brothers who made it became unwell, and it was traced to the manufacturing process, I doubt that anywhere that has any would be willing to part with it.

There are alternatives though. I get the Orthodox 'Purbeck Rose', made by the good people at S Edwards.

RC x
 

---

Posted by Panis Angelicus (# 3795) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Regina Cæli:
As the brothers who made it became unwell, and it was traced to the manufacturing process, I doubt that anywhere that has any would be willing to part with it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Regina Cæli:
As the brothers who made it became unwell, and it was traced to the manufacturing process, I doubt that anywhere that has any would be willing to part with it.

There are alternatives though. I get the Orthodox 'Purbeck Rose', made by the good people at S Edwards.

RC x

---

I hate to say this, but making and/or ingesting that foul blend would indeed make one ill.
 

---

Posted by Regina Cæli (# 2343) on :
 
I discovered today that one of them actually died.

It's a fragrance that I doubt was intended to be used alone though. You'd really have to mix it with something a little more frankincesish.

RC x
 

---

Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adrian1:
Much as it grieves me, I have to disagree with my good friend Cosmo. Prinknash 'Basilica' is, in my opinion, one of the best forms of incense - if not the best - and given a choice I would use it every time.

---

Basilica, IMO, is disgusting. It smells like puff and strangulates my throat. Almost anything else would be nicer.

 

---

Posted by Eminentisimo (# 3924) on :
 

quote:

---

the choir] should be able to breathe pure, unadulterated air, free from the smell of both incense and stale cassocks

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by daisymay:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adrian1:
Much as it grieves me, I have to disagree with my good friend Cosmo. Prinknash 'Basilica' is, in my opinion, one of the best forms of incense - if not the best - and given a choice I would use it every time.

---

Basilica, IMO, is disgusting. It smells like puff and strangulates my throat. Almost anything else would be nicer.

---

I can only assume you aren't having it burnt properly. Sack the thurifer.

Alternatively, as this place did when we got here, it's being kept in the boat, in a damp cellar, and several weeks go by between usages. You do not want to know what that smelt like when put on nearly-out coals (incompetant thurifer). Blech

Re: boatkids. They get to dress up and feel important. Of course they're not going to behave like they do when eg bored silly at school. I did have to keep an eye on mine at the Easter Vigil as I gave him a candle, but apart from that (oh, and giving him a tissue to remove his chewing gum ) the only problem I had was remembering that effectively my width was doubled, so whereas on my own if I stood just there I wouldn't be in the way, with two of us someone will trip over us.

They also look cute even with runny noses and all the old ladies go aaaaah. And they can go on to be servers, and you can actually teach them to do it competantly, rather than the adults who think that "we've never done it like that before" is a proper argument when discussing how to serve...
 

---

Posted by stbruno (# 3505) on :
 
In reposne to Interprd Thurifer's request for Rose incense, the Catholic Shop next to the Blessed Sacrament Fathers church in Melbourne sells rose incense...it smells OK too.
 

---

Posted by Intrepid Thurifer (# 77) on :
 
St Bruno Thanks for the info next time I am in the city I will got to St Francis' and get some. I had no idea I would be able to get rose incense so close to home.
 

---

Posted by Regina Cæli (# 2343) on :
 
Offer still stands though.

x
 

---

Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
Hostly Mobcap ON

Just moving some relevant posts (all posted on June 9, 2003) from another thread:

quote:

---

originally posted by angloid:
We had plenty of smoke yesterday but most of it seemed to be charcoal rather than incense. It rather catches the back of the throat and inhibits proper Pentecost(al?) singing. Any thuri-technologists out there who could recommend a remedy? Is it a question of the proportion of charcoal to incense, or how long to let the former burn, or cleaning the thurible, or a combination? I realise a similar thread has been round before but I don't recollect any guidance on this particular problem.

---

quote:

---

reply from Merseymike:
Sounds like you need more incense in the mix - and try the more pungent varieties. Next parishioners who go to Italy or Greece. tell them to bring a load back - its good stuff, much cheaper than what we pay here, and usually excessively powerful!

---

quote:

---

posted by Ultraspike:
Those self-lighting charcoal briquettes ("Quik-lites" as they're known over here) emit a most noxious odor, and even the strongest incense can hardly overcome it. I recommend "real" charcoal, untreated with chemicals, such as the Kingsford original brand. They take longer to cook but there is much less charcoal smell to compete with. The only problem is you need to have a gas burner or some such setup to cook them. Most sacristies do not have this and must rely on just a lighter or a match to cook the charcoals, hence the need for the self-lighting types.

---

quote:

---

posted by frater-frag:
At my church we use only real charcoal as well, the trick is to get it really red-hot before the service starts. And of course, make sure that the celebrant only adds three SMALL spoons off incense...

By time I have managed to discipline our priest on that matter, these days he doesn´t put out the glowing charcoal by OD:ing to death

As for incense, we mostly use "Three Kings", it burns perfectly and leaves no "coalish" remains in the air.

Of course, using a gas-burner for starting up the coals are also nescessary, and, doing the mighty 360¤ swings as well (remember to lookout for chandeliers)!

---

quote:

---

the mighty 360¤ swings

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by angloid:
Thanks Jennifer for locating the original thread. Thanks too others for helpful comments. But Frater.frag's advice would frighten some of our more euro-sceptic members who are afraid of the raging inflation implied by

quote:

---

the mighty 360¤ swings

---

(At least that's how it reads on my computer, as a euro symbol rather than a degree symbol.)

[fixed code]

---

......................................

Thats odd, allthough I do advocate a common EU currency, thats not what I intended!

The EURO symbol is located on my E button, ie, €, the ¤ is on my 4 button, toghether with the no longer so mighty $!

Are you on a MAC?
 

---

Posted by Intrepid Thurifer (# 77) on :
 
Hey St Bruno

I bought the rose incense from the Catholic Bookshop next to St Francis church in Melbourne. I am surprised it is really good and not orthodox incense either it was made in Italy. We used it on Pentecost as it is red in colour and we will use it again on the feast of the mother of our lord in August
 

---

Posted by stbruno (# 3505) on :
 
Pleased to hear the incense was a success Mr Thurifer. Did you notice the other varieties that were also selling..I seem to recall their was one that looked lime green with bright yellow ..not sure what the fragrance was though! Perhaps you could try it out and report back?
Keep on smoking.....
 

---

Posted by Intrepid Thurifer (# 77) on :
 
The others were Citronella incase you have cockroaches in church I geuss, and one other was Patouli (I think thats how you spell it) for the hippies I guess
 

---

Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Intrepid Thurifer:
...one other was Patouli (I think thats how you spell it) for the hippies I guess

---

quote:

---

Siegfried said:

Also recommended for an Evensnog service. (I'm going to keep making that joke until someone laughs!!!! Don't say I didn't warn you!!!!!!)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by CorgiGreta:

I have, however, heard absolutely sublime music sung when the smoke was so thick the church looked like a cigar bar. The same has been true when the choir was quite fragrant due to musty vestments and/or widespread halitosis or alcohol-breath.

Greta

---

Good choirs are troupers who will come through despite adversity. Nevertheless, too much incense will ruin a choir in the long run. I regret to say it, but it's true.

Recruitment of choristers became very difficult for awhile at Church of the Good Shepherd, Rosemont because word got around to all the schools up and down the Main Line that the place would "choke you to death." And it is rumored that when Peter Richard Conte was negotiating a return to S. Clement's, Philadelphia, one of his conditions was that the amount of incense be moderated, because singers of the caliber he wanted simply would refuse to work under conditions that threatened their voices.
 

---

Posted by Ultraspike (# 268) on :
 
The choir at my church has only one real whinger about incense and she is a heavy cigarette smoker, so it's hard to be very sympathetic.

They are far enough away that it really shouldn't bother them, since most of the smoke goes straight up to the rafters.

As I've said before, Frankincense and Myrrh are good expectorants and decongestants. Most people inhale much worse things walking down the city streets.
 

---

Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :
 
relocated from another thread

quote:

---

Originally posted by boppysbud:
About incense.

I noticed growing up in the 70's when smoking was socially acceptable, the same people who would be complaining of allergies and asthma and coughing their heads off at the merest whiff from the censer could not wait for Mass to end so they could light up.

At coffee hour you couldn't see across the parish hall for the wal-to-wall cigarette smoke.

Seems like what they were really allergic to was Catholicism

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alogon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by CorgiGreta:

I have, however, heard absolutely sublime music sung when the smoke was so thick the church looked like a cigar bar. The same has been true when the choir was quite fragrant due to musty vestments and/or widespread halitosis or alcohol-breath.

Greta

---

Good choirs are troupers who will come through despite adversity.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fiddleback:
Acetone to get the residue off (not forgetting the chains) then brass/silver polish.

Every week if possible.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Saint Osmund:
Rubber gloves, ethanol and a toothbrush are what I use. Emptying the thurible immediately after use also helps prevent it getting into the same state again.

Rinse thoroughly with water afterwards, and then dry it. Brasso should then do a sterling job.

M x

(PS - I haven't seen Silvo anywhere for ages. Is this no longer available?)

M x

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sacristan:
Acetone is great for removing the tar. To polish it is easier to use "Twinkle" if available. You won't get as high a shine as with "Brasso" but it requires a lot less elbow grease.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Magic Wand:
The variation of styles in use at S. Clement's for the censing of the congregation is an utter disgrace! Unfortunately, Alogon the correct method is the one which you seem not to prefer, and soon will be the only one in use there, so I'm told.

---

Who/what makes it "the" correct method? I suspect that at S. Clement's, this would be a case of the lay popes striking again <sigh>, which in turn suggests a figurehead rector. I wouldn't blame Fr. Reid yet if so, because he is still new; but neither do I suspect, from what little I've gathered, that an enforced uniformity in that direction would originate with him.

Fr. Laister was one of our greater rectors partly because he had what it took to make the congregation feel needed in the liturgy, even if it meant adopting a few details that didn't please the "sacristy rats" for whom ancient minutiae are the nun plus ultra.
 

---

Posted by Ultraspike (# 268) on :
 
Yes, the congo should be censed with three full chains, center-left-right. It is important to smile but not grin. But the sanctuary party should only get a short chain. We have a couple of incorrigibles who insist on censing the acolytes with a long chain and it looks ridiculous.

Now, what about figure 8's or Queen Annes, as we call them? I used to like them but now they just seem pretentious, ostentatious and even dangerous. Whence did this practice originate and why?
 

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Posted by Saint Osmund (# 2343) on :
 
Alogon and Ultraspike, I agree entirely with both of you. I also cense the congregation with the thurible at full length, as I believe that, as with any symbol, what we are doing ought to be made clear.

When I served at Mass in Lourdes a couple of years ago, the fact that the liturgical awareness of the regular servers of the Cathedral of the diocese that I accompanied was irreparably poor was most apparent. The seminarians were scurrying, rather then walking all over the sanctuary. One of them refused to allow me to add more incense to the thurible after the censings at the Offertory, despite the fact that there was no smoke whatever emanating from it. As a result, I ended up swinging an empty thurible towards the Blessed Sacrament at the elevations, and all beause of some misguided notion that "only the Bishop adds more incense".

When the Deacon was censing the Offertory, I had to restrain laughter. I had serious doubts that he had ever handled a thurible before. He held it directly in front of his face in his right hand, at arm's length, about 6 inches above the pot, and pulled the rest of the chain tight in his left hand. He then proceeded the strike the chain against the pot to make it move towards the congregation. The idea of swinging it appeared not to have occurred to him.

I believe that there are times (such as occasions where the Deacon is inept) when the less essential rubrics may be laid aside for the better performance of the liturgy (ie, let the thurifer do it!)

I am increasingly in agreement about figure '8's as well. They are highly ostentatious, and if they must be used, perhaps ought to be reserved for more festal outdoor processions. The most I stretch to now is swinging on either side. As the good Saint Percy saith, "The warning, 'Avoid Elaboration' needs constant repetition..."

M x
 

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Posted by Alogon (# 5513) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Saint Osmund:
I am increasingly in agreement about figure '8's as well. They are highly ostentatious, and if they must be used, perhaps ought to be reserved for more festal outdoor processions.
M x

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quote:

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Originally posted by Saint Osmund:
When I served at Mass in Lourdes a couple of years ago, the fact that the liturgical awareness of the regular servers of the Cathedral of the diocese that I accompanied was irreparably poor was most apparent. The seminarians were scurrying, rather then walking all over the sanctuary. One of them refused to allow me to add more incense to the thurible after the censings at the Offertory, despite the fact that there was no smoke whatever emanating from it. As a result, I ended up swinging an empty thurible towards the Blessed Sacrament at the elevations, and all beause of some misguided notion that "only the Bishop adds more incense".

When the Deacon was censing the Offertory, I had to restrain laughter. I had serious doubts that he had ever handled a thurible before. He held it directly in front of his face in his right hand, at arm's length, about 6 inches above the pot, and pulled the rest of the chain tight in his left hand. He then proceeded the strike the chain against the pot to make it move towards the congregation. The idea of swinging it appeared not to have occurred to him.


M x

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sacristan:
Another problem there was that the deacon should not have been censing the gifts or the people, whatever it was he was doing...

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I am no expert on the Roman rite, but I believe that the Celebrant (bishop, in this instance) censes the gifts and offertory, and Deacon then censes him and any concelebrants, and then the congregation, before handing the thurible back to the thurifer. That is why it didn't seem oddd to me at the time that the Deacon insisted on doing the censings (apart from the fact that he didn't know how).

M x
 

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Posted by Saint Osmund (# 2343) on :
 
Just checked, and yes, the Deacon censes Celebrant, any concelebrants, choir and congregation before handing the thurible back to the thurifer.

M x
 

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Posted by Sacristan (# 3548) on :
 
Thanks SO.

I was under the impression that you were at an Anglican affair.

I wouldn't want to be a thurifer in that context - not much to do!

Sacristan
 

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Posted by Saint Osmund (# 2343) on :
 
I'm sorry. I ought to have mentioned it was with the RC Diocese of Salford.

It was a bit dull being the thurifer, which is something I never thought I would type here. Then so was the whole thing, and the bishop was a liturgical disaster as well. (Is this a prerequisite?)

M x
 

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Posted by Pax Britannica (# 1876) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Alogon:
The first is that the thurifer should swing the thurible...from the end of the chain and at arm's length.

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quote:

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Who/what makes it "the" correct method?

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quote:

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I suspect that at S. Clement's, this would be a case of the lay popes striking again

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quote:

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Fr. Laister was one of our greater rectors partly because he had what it took to make the congregation feel needed in the liturgy, even if it meant adopting a few details that didn't please the "sacristy rats" for whom ancient minutiae are the nun plus ultra.

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quote:

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Yes, the congo should be censed with three full chains, center-left-right. It is important to smile but not grin.

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quote:

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Now, what about figure 8's or Queen Annes, as we call them? I used to like them but now they just seem pretentious, ostentatious and even dangerous.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Magic Wand:
And from Ultraspike:

quote:

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Yes, the congo should be censed with three full chains, center-left-right. It is important to smile but not grin.

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And the source of this is? Personal innovation?

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Almost every major AC church that uses incenses that I've ever seen censes the congo thusly (although the smile is optional). I always assumed it was in the "rubrics" somewhere. But I dare say every practice was someone's "personal innovation" sometime.
 

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Posted by Alogon (# 5513) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Magic Wand:
Quoth Alogon:

quote:

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Who/what makes it "the" correct method?

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The rubrics of the liturgical books, the decreta authentica of the S.R.C., and the commentaries of the approved authors. Is there another authoritative source?
With respect to the poster's latter comment, assuming that ne plus ultra is actually meant, I would indeed agree--although not with any of the disparagement which I presume is intended. In terms of the former, perhaps Alogon could be a bit more specific?

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I'd like to check Ritual Notes and The Parson's Handbook before surrendering. If neither of these support my preference, I will have to concede (reluctantly) that there is no established western authority for it. On the other hand, I don't know why eastern usage should be dismissed simply because their thuribles were of a different shape. What is dangerous about swinging the thurible in a large arc rather than a small one, assuming that there is plenty of open space for it?

I would be happy to be more specific as you requested. Today the epistle is read in the sanctuary facing east. The Holy Gospel is proclaimed in the sanctuary facing the north wall. Most of the Lord's Prayer is chanted by the celebrant alone, even though the Book of Common Prayer has clearly announced, "we are bold to say..." for centuries.

I am aware of the ancient symbolism surrounding the northward position for the Gospel, but it shouldn't take precedence over proclaiming the Gospel to those present. Why the epistle is read facing east or why the people are kept from singing the entire Lord's Prayer, I have no idea, but the latter especially is "offensive" (to quote an old friend in his 70s, a nearly life-long Anglo-Catholic and long-time parishioner, who has, I'm sorry to say, recently departed to a 'breakaway' Anglican congregation.)

These usages flourished, and probably originated, during an era when the laity seldom received Communion and were in general treated as second-class citizens. The effect of all of them when revived today is to suggest that those in the congregation are tolerated onlookers rather than valued participants. The appearance of a merely perfunctory censing of the people looks like one more manifestation of the same attitude. I probably wouldn't even mention it if it occurred in isolation.

If I were convinced that we must adhere to these details, or the walls would come tumbling down and we would degenerate into a garden-variety Rite II Anglo-Catholic-Lite kind of place, I'd gladly applaud every last one of them despite personal feelings. But in some ways I am still an Anglo-Catholic, not a resuscitated 17th-century RC, and I know that Anglo-Catholicism has done very nicely, indeed had its heyday, when it was moved by pastoral as well as historical concerns.
 

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Posted by Ultraspike (# 268) on :
 
Censing the congo with a long chain must surely have been seen as just a logical way to get more smoke out to a large area. It makes sense (pun) to use the short chain in a smaller area where your object is closer. So what if it's not written down in Fortescue. Those books are only guidelines, not Gospel, imho. Innovations always creep in due to local usage and/or (God forbid) eccentricities.

If you really want the congo to feel censed, do it like the Orthodox or St. Mary the Virgin TImes Square these days. The deacon runs down the aisle censing one side then the other.
 

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Posted by Sacristan (# 3548) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ultraspike:
If you really want the congo to feel censed, do it like the Orthodox or St. Mary the Virgin TImes Square these days. The deacon runs down the aisle censing one side then the other.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Alogon:
These usages flourished, and probably originated, during an era when the laity seldom received Communion and were in general treated as second-class citizens. The effect of all of them when revived today is to suggest that those in the congregation are tolerated onlookers rather than valued participants.

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And that is precisely the point!

Some of the more discerning of you may have picked up an inkling in you reading of MW that I have a minor interest in English Catholic rites and ceremonial.

My starting point for liturgical authority in such cases is mediaeval Catholic practice, much of which lives on in our beloved Book of Common Prayer. This must then be adapted (and the adaptation required is most often surprisingly minimal) to our current authorised rites.

Further to Alogon's comment above, and to answer PA's question, one will find that in these mediaeval rites, with all of their detailed rubrics, that there were no directions for the censing of the congregation, for the posture of the congregation throughout the Mass, or for the reception of Holy Communion. They were onlookers, often reduced to running around churches to catch a glimpse of the elevations through 'squints'; and apart fro Easter, this was the nearest they came to the Blessed Sacrament.

quote:

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Originaly posted by Ultraspike:
So what if it's not written down in Fortescue. Those books are only guidelines, not Gospel, imho.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Panis Angelicus:
Why is the congregation censed, again? Has this always been done in the West?

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In my previous post, I overlooked the first part of your question. Apologies.

I have never seen this written down anywhere, and have never been taught this, but since I have been old enough to understand (to whatever degree we can understand) what happens at Mass, I have made this association in my mind:

The oblations to be offered are censed, then the Cross, to show that the Sacrifice being mde present is one and the same with the Sacrifice on the Cross. Then in censed the Altar on which the Sacrifice is to be offered, followed by the priest who is to offer the Sacrifice in persona Christi sacerdos magnus, and then the entire congregation, the Kingdom of Priests who also take part in the Sacrifice.

I have always seen it as uniting everybody present in the 'anamnesis' of Christ's Sacrifice at Calvary. To omit the censing of the congregation, or to somhow downplay it seems therefore out of place.

I don't know if this is theologically sound,. but it seems to be, and as for why we cense the congregation, it's an explanation that works for me.

M x
 

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Posted by Pax Britannica (# 1876) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Saint Osmund:
I have never seen this written down anywhere

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quote:

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variously posted by Henry103:
...thurifer sits to the right of the altar...

...the stand....

When the host is elavated, incense is clicked three times with the bells...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Henry103:
I think most people are married at St Mary's - except for the younger servers, and myself though I'm only 16.

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quote:

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With howlers such as this, Mr. Balkwill, it's hard for me to believe you are not really a 46 year old troll yanking our chain. But, being the gullible sort, I'll tell you DODwarf found my diction risible: By 'single individual', I intended a person not standing next to another. Will you please stop telling us you are "only 16".

Can anyone attest to Young Henry's true age?

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quote:

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A quick "google" on "Henry Balkwill" will confirm that Henry appears to be what he says he is, or has a well developed and longstanding "troll persona".

Oh and what exactly were you filmed doing for Childrens TV, Henry? - enquiring minds want to know.

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Wow - Good Research - I was filmed for a Childrens ITV program called "The Top Ten of Everything" I was singing a medley of the top ten christmas carols, I also was on a BBC Gameshow called "2for2000", but I only got to round 2 (there were 2000 contestants and 4 rounds)
Yes, I've been on the internet now since I was about 9, so thats 7 years on the internet!
If you can find out the specs of my first laptop though - I'll be dead impressed

-Henry
 

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Posted by CorgiGreta (# 443) on :
 
Henry,

I am afraid our gentle jesting has made you shy of using ancient and proper Latin liturgical terminology. You can do better than this: "...thurifer moves to the altar during the "Blessed is he who comes to the name of the Lord" in the Lamb of God, everyone kneels...".

I for one think that you are 16 even though the only proof you have supplied is a photo of a trouser leg and a trainer. Your devotion to the Church is, sadly, far from typical for your age group which tends to be obsessed with more trivial matters.

You communicate very well for someone so young(although I would suggest that you brush up a bit on punctuation), and I shall confess to having enjoyed your posts and threads. I shall even go so far as to opine that you have been a whiff of incense in the MW onion patch.

As an aside, I hate your new screen name. As a life-long Anglo-Catholic, I naturally preferred the old one.

Greta
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by CorgiGreta:
I shall confess to having enjoyed your posts and threads.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Henry103:

If you can find out the specs of my first laptop though - I'll be dead impressed
-Henry

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quote:

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Henry,

I am afraid our gentle jesting has made you shy of using ancient and proper Latin liturgical terminology. You can do better than this: "...thurifer moves to the altar during the "Blessed is he who comes to the name of the Lord" in the Lamb of God, everyone kneels...".

I for one think that you are 16 even though the only proof you have supplied is a photo of a trouser leg and a trainer. Your devotion to the Church is, sadly, far from typical for your age group which tends to be obsessed with more trivial matters.

You communicate very well for someone so young(although I would suggest that you brush up a bit on punctuation), and I shall confess to having enjoyed your posts and threads. I shall even go so far as to opine that you have been a whiff of incense in the MW onion patch.

As an aside, I hate your new screen name. As a life-long Anglo-Catholic, I naturally preferred the old one.

Greta

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quote:

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OK, I'll rise to the bait, in 2001 you were running a 100meg laptop with 98se.
More seriously (and somewhat back on topic) I would like second what CorgiGreta said. You have given cosiderable entertainment (and provocation) but I suspect that you are quite capable of keeping your side of the dialogue up.

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Very Good - it was actually a Dell Latitude XPi 100SD, 100mhz Pentium, 40mb RAM, 2.1gb Hard Disk, 28.8k Modem

Actually - it's rather scary that people can find so much about me on the internet!
I'll raise the stakes here: which newsgroup I'm I an active member of and what's my nickname on it?

Also what was the name of the boatboy at mass today - I've forgotten so you will all have to remind me! (laughs as this will now be impossible)

-Henry
P.S. Sorry if I'm abusing this forums with my silly games Mr. Admin - this is just a one off!
 

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Posted by ACOL-ite (# 4991) on :
 
If I may drag this thread kicking and screaming back to the subject of incense and thurifers...

I'm doing smoke on Wednesday (at my AC parish church) for a funeral (Requiem Mass) for a lady whose family are RC. Are there any simple ways in which I can vary my style to make them feel at home?
 

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Posted by Henry103 (# 5846) on :
 

quote:

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If I may drag this thread kicking and screaming back to the subject of incense and thurifers...

I'm doing smoke on Wednesday (at my AC parish church) for a funeral (Requiem Mass) for a lady whose family are RC. Are there any simple ways in which I can vary my style to make them feel at home?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Henry103:
Less smoke - many RC Parishes don't actually use incense anymore, and if they do (i'm thinking about one monastry now) smoke is rare when it comes out of the thurible, it really is quite pointless.
When it comes to ritual, I think its pretty much the same!

-Henry

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quote:

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Originally posted by ACOL-ite:
If I may drag this thread kicking and screaming back to the subject of incense and thurifers...

I'm doing smoke on Wednesday (at my AC parish church) for a funeral (Requiem Mass) for a lady whose family are RC. Are there any simple ways in which I can vary my style to make them feel at home?

---

Well, if you are in the U.S. and are trying to make Roman Catholics feel at home, you might want to omit incense.
 

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Posted by Henry103 (# 5846) on :
 

quote:

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I think the thurifer's a pyromaniac

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quote:

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Originally posted by ACOL-ite:
If I may drag this thread kicking and screaming back to the subject of incense and thurifers...

I'm doing smoke on Wednesday (at my AC parish church) for a funeral (Requiem Mass) for a lady whose family are RC. Are there any simple ways in which I can vary my style to make them feel at home?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Back-to-Front:
I seem to recall that as a Requiem Mass is not a Mass 'of this realm', the congregation are onlookers and not necessarily participants.

This is why they do not receive communion and I believe that they are also not censed at the Offertory.

Did I dream this or has anybody come across this before?

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I've just checked my Sunday Missal (approved for use in England & Wales, Ireland & Scotland) and the funeral Mass is an Eucharistic Celebration. There's nothing in the rubrics about censing (or not), but it seems to indicate that the congregation do receive Communion.

Deborah
 

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Posted by Back-to-Front (# 5638) on :
 
Thanks, Rosamundi, for that.

I'm familiar with the modern Roman position on this.

I ought to have clarified that I meant in an Anglican context, (specifically CE) what is stipulated by the authority in English Catholicism regarding such matters?

I know that the hearse is censed at numeous points in the liturgy, but I don't know that the congregation are.

[ 11. May 2004, 20:42: Message edited by: Back-to-Front ]
 

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Posted by ACOL-ite (# 4991) on :
 
Nope, every-one got censed and every-one who wanted to received.

It was a lovely service, and I managed not to cry despite being a little "welled up" at a few points. I fear to say it, but it was a marvellous sight when I came out of the back of the church to meet the hearse to lead the coffin in and found a queue of people going over 100 yards down the road and then round the corner waiting to get into church.

I wish we had the same problems (queues to get in, standing room only, running out of orders of service) every Sunday!
 

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Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :
 
(On topic replies from a thread about shelf life of incense)

quote:

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Originally posted by Bishop of Stortford:
Rummaging through some cupboards in the sacristy on Sunday, I came across some rusty old tins of incense from Charles Farris Ltd of Hounslow. One is called "Canterbury"; the other seems to have no name. Judging by the state of the tins, I'd guess they've been there since the 1970s, if not before - possibly since the reformation. I was wondering if this stuff has a shelf life. Has anyone tried burning ancient incense? Will it still smell any good? Can it be worse than Glastonbury?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fiddleback:
Most commercial stuff is ground far too small and therefore has a very short shelf life once opened, especially the ubiquitous 'Basilica' which is OK on the day of purchase but shite thereafter. We import ours from New York and worth every penny it is too.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ultraspike:
Yes, incense does get stale. The frankincense and myrrh by themselves will last indefinitely but the oils which are added have a limited freshness. Keeping the incense in an airtight bag or container helps.
Yesterday at the Anglican Use Rite at St. Vincent Ferrer the incense smelled like it had gotten mixed with grandpa's pipe tobacco about 25 years ago.

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quote:

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Originally posted by jlg:
Just to reinforce what has already been said:

You're dealing with oils, which can go rancid, undergo chemical changes, or just simply dissapate. Use of any incense, except for a new supply of a known and trusted product, should ideally always be subject to a private test-burn. Even if it smells OK in the solid state, burning it might push it over the edge into something nasty.
(tangent: Essential oils have various shelf-lives; I believe the floral ones tend to break down sooner. The more aromatic or resinous ones (think burial herbs and spices) are quite long-lasting. I have a little vial of oil of cloves which is well over 30 years old and still going strong.)

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quote:

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Have RCs given up on incense? Or is this an American characteristic.

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quote:

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This same pattern happens for the elevation of each element.

(genuflect/dong) -> -> . (elevation/dong) -> -> . (genuflect/dong) -> ->.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bishop of Stortford:
I've always done this because that's what they do at St Botolph Bishopsgate, where I first came across incense. Is that incorrect?

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quote:

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Originally posted by ORGANMEISTER:
Is this practice becoming common among Lutherans here in the States??

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cusanus:
Now on the subject of clean thuribles... where does one get acetone these days? I couldn't find any this week Even For Ready Money. All the nail polish remover available seems to be proudly announcing its non-acetone status. What to do?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Holy Cow:
Mineral Turpentine ...

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quote:

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Turpentine (wood) should not be confused with mineral turpentine. Turpentine (wood) is derived by destructive distillation of wood and contains mainly pinene and dipentene. Mineral turpentine is a refined petroleum solvent and is a mixture of straight and branched chain paraffins, naphthenes and aromatic hydrocarbons.

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quote:

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Odorless mineral spirits (OMS), and mineral spirits (MS) also called "white spirit" in Britain and Europe, are petroleum distillate solvents. These and other solvents such as naphtha, kerosene, toluene, and xylene are distilled from petroleum.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Henry Troup:

... "mineral turpentine" ... might be what North Americans call "mineral spirits" and the UK "white spirit"...

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quote:

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Original Post by Custard123 on 29 June, 2004 19:27

What was the point of the incense in the OT?
Was there one other than it smelling nice (and seeming to be something done as part of worshipping God)?

What do people do with it today and why?

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quote:

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posted by Madake on 29 June, 2004 19:40

wasn't it a symbol of the prayers going to God?

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quote:

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posted by Father Gregory on 29 June, 2004 19:41

Dear Custard123

The primary meanings are sacrifice, prayer and the veneration of God. There is a huge amount of biblical material about this.

You could start here with the Torrey reference ...

Torrey - Incense

--------------------
Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory

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quote:

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posted by CorgiGreta on 29 June, 2004 21:03

Besides the meanings cited by Fr. Gregory, incense is one of many devices (can't think of a better word) for creating an atmosphere far removed from the profane. Like special vestments, sacred art, ecclesiastical architecture, and liturgical music, incense helps to create the sights, the scents and the sounds of a heavenly space.

Greta

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quote:

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posted by Vikki Pollard on 29 June, 2004 22:04


Incense is wonderful. Unfortunately I'm really allergic to it and can't go to my local church because I can't breathe in there.

You see, Father G, God must want SOME of us not to be Orthodox.

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quote:

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posted by Ultraspike on 30 June, 2004 00:23


It also served a practical purpose of fumigating the place when the unwashed masses used to huddle there, esp. in cathedrals.

But I believe it was first used in the Temple sacrifices, in the Bible anyway. It purified the air there also as well as sending an offering to God.

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quote:

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posted by Moo on 30 June, 2004 00:50


I think that in the Middle East, incense has been around for thousands of years.

I assume it was used in worship because people wanted to offer something good to God.

Moo

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quote:

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posted by Anselm on 30 June, 2004 01:45


My 2cents worth
Given the large quantity of slaughtered animals and that was thrown around the temple, the incense would have acted nicely as a deoderant. Indeed there was a special incense/aroma for the temple incense - the temple would have had a distinctive smell. Seeking to reproduce the aroma was a serious offence IIRC.

The smoke from the incense may have also symbolised the presence of the glory of God which had on previous occasions presented iteself as a cloud.

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quote:

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posted by Sir George Grey on 30 June, 2004 01:49


With Anselm's post in mind, someone definately needs to write a high-church liturgy for use in places such as Sydney, Cape Town or Johannesburg, or anywhere else where people like putting large pieces of meat on the barbecue.

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quote:

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posted by Ultraspike on 30 June, 2004 01:54


Frankincense and beef! The newer rite is here!

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quote:

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posted by Sir George Grey on 30 June, 2004
02:17

The beef is here.

Its savour is with us.

Lift up your forks.

We lift them unto the beef

Let us give thanks for this tender, juicy steak.

It is meat, and right so to do.

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quote:

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HangerQueen on 30 June, 2004 02:23


Incense gives me a slamming headache. I remember going to an evening service once when I was a kid. They had this huge censer belching out fumes of incense. I thought my head was going to explode.

Guess it's low church for me!

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quote:

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posted by Frisbeetarian on 30 June, 2004 02:38


In Wicca, especially the "fluffy" kind, the trailing smoke is supposed to carry messages up to the God and Goddess, especially when a ritual is being done in the open air. Probably does the same thing in Christian symbolism.

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quote:

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posted by The Dumb Acolyte on 30 June, 2004 05:45

quote:

---

Originally posted by Custard123:
What do people do with it today...?

---

Some of the why has been addressed. Perhaps it is helpful to natter on describing some of the what and the when.

Blessed incense is used together with blessed water and prayers to hallow and set objects apart. So, new vestments, rosaries, chalices, new church buildings, homes, candles, what have you, are all blessed with water, incense, and prayers.

It is also used to proceed solemn processions, inside or outside. At the station of a procession , the object of the station (Lady statue, font, rood, west doors, effigy of the patron) is incensed. At a procession of the Most Blessed Sacrament, especial care is used to honor It with incense immediately in It's path.

Anglocatholics generally use incense at the mass at these times:

• at the entrance preceding the processional cross
• after the celebrant has kissed the altar, he incenses the altar cross, the altar, and the relics, if any
• the deacon then incenses the celebrant
• the thurifer leads the gospel procession, in places that have one (most)
• the deacon incenses the gospel book before he reads from it
• the thurifer and torchbearers lead the Gifts of bread and wine to the altar in the Offertory Procession
• the celebrant incenses the gifts and altar and himself is again incensed by the deacon, who also incenses the choir clergy, if any, and the subdeacon
• the thurifer incenses the rest of the sanctuary party, the choir, and finally the people
• the thurifer incenses the host and the chalice when they are elevated after the words of institution and again at the words 'by whom and with whom..."

Which is to say: A lot. But then, perhaps, a friend from the East will confirm or deny my belief that in their rites the thurible is rarely just hanging around in the altar.

At the rite of Benediction, the Most Blessed Sacrament is incensed during the blessing with It in the monstrance.

The above assumes there is no bishop loitering about the sanctuary. In addition, another thread discusses the use of incense at Solemn Matins and Solemn Evensong.

The Paschal Candle has five incense grains, for the Five Holy Wounds, set into it. The grains themselves are sprinkled and incensed before being placed. Then the assembly is sprinkled and incensed again.

Together with prayers, incense is used to hallow baptismal water. The East uses great clouds of it during the Great Blessing of the Waters at Holy Theophany and for the festal icon, incensed from the four cardinal points, on its feast day.

Enterprising thurifers will use incense during Solemn Te Deums to attempt to obscure from view any portion of the chancel from the west end.

And another word about the why. While we post-moderns may squirm at the thought, the church still teaches the apotropaic power of holy things: that blessed objects, and especially blessed water, blessed candles and their light, and blessed incense, can drive away demons.

---

quote:

---

posted by Mousethief on 30 June, 2004 05:48

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sir George Grey.:
Let us give thanks for this tender, juicy steak.

It is meat, and right so to do.

---

That's pretty funny, Sir GG!

[ 30. June 2004, 05:49: Message edited by: Mousethief ]

--------------------
Reader Alexis

---

quote:

---

posted by Duo Seraphim on 30 June, 2004 06:22

Hosting

Seems like a perfectly good Mystery Worship thread going to waste.

And with a single swing of the thurible in three directions to the congregation, it was sent to its natural habitat...

Duo Seraphim, Purgatory Host

[ 30. June 2004, 06:22: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]

--------------------
Duo Seraphim

---

quote:

---

posted by Norman the Organ on 30 June, 2004 08:47

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Dumb Acolyte:

* the celebrant ... is again incensed by the deacon, who also incenses the choir clergy, if any, and the subdeacon

---

Not a popular guy then, this deacon - what does he keep doing wrong?


Sorry, I'll get me coat.

---

quote:

---

posted by Custard123 on 30 June, 2004 09:03


thanks very much everyone for your helpful thoughts, though the thread does seem to have been killed off by transplatation to MW

or maybe it had just run its course anyway

[ 30. June 2004, 09:03: Message edited by: Custard123 ]

---

quote:

---

posted by Sir George Grey. on 30 June, 2004 09:41


Well, I'll put my two cents worth in anyway.

To be frank I'm not as well up on the theology of incense as some. My understanding is that it represents the prayers of the assembled church.

For the most part, for me I find it a helpful aid to worship as one might with songs, silence, candles etc.

In NZ it's being rediscovered in some charismatic/evangelical circles which is interesting.

(and much to be applauded IMHO )

---

quote:

---

posted by Charles Read on 30 June, 2004 09:43


A priest friend often remarks:

"I tell people to get used to the smell of incense because in the afterlife there are only two smells - incense and brimstone".

---

quote:

---

posted by Ultraspike on 30 June, 2004 12:00

quote:

---

Originally posted by Charles Read:
A priest friend often remarks:

"I tell people to get used to the smell of incense because in the afterlife there are only two smells - incense and brimstone".

---

There's a good combo I hadn't thought of. Where does one get brimstone? Perhaps we could use it on All Souls Day.

---

quote:

---

posted by Adeodatus on 30 June, 2004 13:49


Maybe the thread has slowed down now that it's in MW because for a lot of us down here, smoke just isn't much of an issue. Now, heating the charcoal just right to that orangey glow, and getting the incense grains just the right size so they do burn properly but don't all go up at once ... they're issues!

Of course, MWers will know what I'd say to the "why do we do it" of incense .....

It's liturgy. You Just Do It.

---

quote:

---

posted by Saint Chad on 30 June, 2004 14:42

quote:

---

Originally posted by Vikki Pollard:
You see, Father G, God must want SOME of us not to be Orthodox.

---

Oh dear! I'm not Orthodox, I'd better stop using incense.

quote:

---

Frisbeetarian posted:
In Wicca, especially the "fluffy" kind, the trailing smoke is supposed to carry messages up to the God and Goddess, especially when a ritual is being done in the open air. Probably does the same thing in Christian symbolism.

---

In Christian ceremonial the incense doesn't actually carry the prayers, it represents them. In some Canons of the Mass we ask angels to do the carrying!

And hear, hear, Adeodatus!

[ 30. June 2004, 14:43: Message edited by: Saint Chad ]

---

quote:

---

Oh dear! I'm not Orthodox

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Saint Chad:
In Christian ceremonial the incense doesn't actually carry the prayers, it represents them. In some Canons of the Mass we ask angels to do the carrying!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Crotalus:
Did Saint Chad really accuse himself of being a heretic?

quote:

---

Oh dear! I'm not Orthodox

---

---

Quite the opposite, m'dear!
 

---

Posted by Saint Chad (# 5645) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pax Britannica:
In the authentick Roman Canon

---

quote:

---

God's holy angel is bidden to carry the Eucharistic sacrificial offerings (haec perferri), rather than the prayers, to the altar in heaven,

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Custard123:
Oh, BTW, do the churches that still use incense use the recipe from Ex 30 or not?

---

"The Lord said to Moses, Take fragrant spices: gum resin, aromatic shell, galbanum; add clear frankincense to the spices in equal proportions. Make it into incense, perfume made by the perfumer's craft, salted and pure, a holy thing."

I'm not sure what aromatic shell is. For gum resin I use myrrh. Galbanum I have yet to try but I see that it is a good expectorant, so I may try that in my next blend. I add other aromatic oils not listed here, which I'm hoping the Lord doesn't mind, mostly Rose Maroc, for Our Lady's benefit.
 

---

Posted by aumbry (# 436) on :
 
Where do folk stand on the use of thuribles with tinkley bells attached? Is this an orthodox phenomenon? Balm no doubt for those who like their smells with bells.

Aumbry
 

---

Posted by Sacristan (# 3548) on :
 
Thuribles with bells are wonderful - in churches of an Eastern rite. In places which follow a Western rite they are out of place.
 

---

Posted by The103rd (# 5846) on :
 
I WANT A JINGLY THURIBLE!!!

Actually - I'll ask the Bath Orthodox Priest if there is one that I could borrow *imagines the faces of the congregation when he swings a jingly thurible (with a short chain - just like the orthodox do) up the aisle saying every 20 seconds "Kyrie Eleison" and signing oneself every 5 seconds *

-103
 

---

Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :
 
Henry, you need to get out more.

Sieg
 

---

Posted by Back-to-Front (# 5638) on :
 
My church has two of those.
 

---

Posted by aumbry (# 436) on :
 
It seems a bit puritanical to be against tinkley thuribles in western-rite churches - I would have thought them a fairly harmless bit of liturgical-clobber.

What exactly is the significance of the bells and do they have a specific name?

Aumbry
 

---

Posted by The103rd (# 5846) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Siegfried:
Henry, you need to get out more.

Sieg

---

My Parish Priest told me that today - although if I did get out more, I probably would never post on the Ship.
I think prehaps it's a good thing that I don't get out much because then I can be focused on important things in life, rather than Sex, Drugs and Alcohol (The three teenage temptations)

-103
 

---

Posted by Sacristan (# 3548) on :
 
I don't know the meaning of the bells. I only know that there are twelve of them. I also know that we should not mix practices from different rites. NO BELLS IN WESTERN RITE CHURCHES!
 

---

Posted by Back-to-Front (# 5638) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The103rd:
I think prehaps it's a good thing that I don't get out much because then I can be focused on important things in life, rather than Sex, Drugs and Alcohol (The three teenage temptations)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Back-to-Front:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The103rd:
I think prehaps it's a good thing that I don't get out much because then I can be focused on important things in life, rather than Sex, Drugs and Alcohol (The three teenage temptations)

---

How is this a good thing?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by aumbry:
What exactly is the significance of the bells and do they have a specific name?

Aumbry

---

quote:

---

Sacristan fulminated:
NO BELLS IN WESTERN RITE CHURCHES!

---

Nor apparently in Orthodox Western Rite churches. I attended a solemn high mass in one this weekend. The deacon had great technique, but I was confused about when the icons in the nave were being incensed and when we, the congregation, were getting ours as the deacon never left the chancel.
 

---

Posted by Sacristan (# 3548) on :
 
No deacons censing the people in Western Rite churches!
No icons being censed during the Mass in Western Rite churches!
 

---

Posted by The Dumb Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
Hold on Sacristan. This may be stretching the concept of icon for our Orthodox brethren, but doesn't your crowd incense the high altar cross?
 

---

Posted by Ultraspike (# 268) on :
 
I made some exciting discoveries this weekend. I went to my favorite oil and resin distributor and asked her about aromatic shell. She guessed right away that it was probably Nakhla (sp?) shell, which is found in Yemen. I bought a few and pulverized them and added them to a mix of frankincense, myrrh and galbanum. I will try it out next Sunday and report back. (This is the Exodus 30 recipe.)

Also, in the New English version there is a note that gum resin probably meant mastic, which I will have to try also. Apparently myrrh was used more for anointing oil than for incense. The myrrh given with the frankincense and gold at Epiphany was not for mixing with frankincense, as most people assume, but for anointing oil (presaging Our Lord's burial).

Also got a wonderful book called The Fragrant Heavens which has alot of information about the spiritual dimension and biblical history of fragrance and aromatherapy.
 

---

Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ultraspike:
Also, in the New English version there is a note that gum resin probably meant mastic, which I will have to try also. Apparently myrrh was used more for anointing oil than for incense. The myrrh given with the frankincense and gold at Epiphany was not for mixing with frankincense, as most people assume, but for anointing oil (presaging Our Lord's burial).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Dumb Acolyte:
Hold on Sacristan. This may be stretching the concept of icon for our Orthodox brethren, but doesn't your crowd incense the high altar cross?

---

Dear The Dumb Acolyte (May I call you that?),

The answer to your question is, of course, in the affirmative.

My problem is in the mixing of rites. The ceremony you describe is eastern. The rite being celebrated was suppossed to be western.

That is a parish which claims to be Western Rite Orthodox, and in all honesty is made up of people fleeing the Episcopal Church for the most part or to a lesser degree the liturgical abuses of the Roman Church. Therefore they should practice what they preach and not call themselves "Western" while decorating the building eastern style or adding elements of the eastern liturgy to what they claim is a western rite.

I think in marketing that practice is called "bait-and-switch".

Sacristan
 

---

Posted by The Dumb Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
Sacristan, Of course you may; after all it's my name. I understand your allergy to mixing practices, but judicious borrowing needn't be dissonant. There's an Anglocatholic church in the Northeast with six side chapels and numerous statues. After the gifts and the altar party are incensed, the deacon walks down the south aisle and then the north aisle incensing both people, altars, and effigies. It doesn't take long and it works well. The Denver Western Rite Orthodox crowd hews more closely to a classic AC rite than most places that style themselves AC. Except for an eastern-style altarpiece and assorted icons, the interior is straight AC. The deacon stands at the entrance to the chancel and does his incensing of icons first (c-l-r) and then the people, in the same order. It's not much different from the Episcopal place.
 

---

Posted by Sacristan (# 3548) on :
 
Dear The Dumb Acolyte,

I just know I'd have to take some Allegra or Zyrtec before Mystery Worshiping one of these places.

Sacristan
 

---

Posted by Grits (# 4169) on :
 
Everytime I see this thread pop up, I think of the '70s pseudo-psychedelic lyrics, "Incense and peppermints, the color of time..."

[ 14. July 2004, 21:47: Message edited by: Grits ]
 

---

Posted by Gin in the City (# 2572) on :
 
Speaking of incense and thuribles with jingly bells, tomorrow morning will be my first Sunday as thurifur at a large Episcopal cathedral that happens to use jingly-belled thuribles. Wish me luck in not setting anything (nor anybody) on fire...
 

---

Posted by aumbry (# 436) on :
 
Good luck Gin in the City.

I must say that I would be quite happy to have the tinkly belled thuribles from the East and dump the West's ghastly "Sign of Peace".

Are there any simple folk in Byzantium keen to have a five minute handshake in the middle of their divine liturgy?

Aumbry
 

---

Posted by The103rd (The Ship's Boatboy) (# 5846) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by aumbry:
Good luck Gin in the City.

I must say that I would be quite happy to have the tinkly belled thuribles from the East and dump the West's ghastly "Sign of Peace".

Are there any simple folk in Byzantium keen to have a five minute handshake in the middle of their divine liturgy?

Aumbry

---

Lol - actually, at the Glastonbury Pilgramage the other day during the peace we did our usual trip up and down the ruins of the church (we're a bit like that) and the rector's dog met another dog, so I took the rector's dog up to the other dog where they did a kiss of peace (aww lovely) followed by some growling and a bit of a fight. (whoops)
The other dog belonged to one of the MCs who were standing at the back of the church!

Make everybody happy: Jingly Thuribles and the kiss of peace (preferably only about 30secs - 1min though, 5 mins is a bit much, even for me!)

-103
 

---

Posted by Gin in the City (# 2572) on :
 
I'm happy to report that all went well today... I managed not to do anything like fling hot coals toward the sacred ministers or congregation, or trip and fall face-first down the altar steps.
 

---

Posted by Crotalus (# 4959) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by 103:
I took the rector's dog up to the other dog where they did a kiss of peace

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Crotalus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by 103:
I took the rector's dog up to the other dog where they did a kiss of peace

---

Unless the dogs were neutered this was a highly dangerous liturgical manoeuvre.

---

Just hope to God that one wasn't a dog and other a bitch otherwise there'd have been a bit of whelping in the aisle...... ...
( I think I need some ice-cream......
 

---

Posted by Ultraspike (# 268) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
Looking at Ultrapsike's ingredient list made me wonder why non-incense-using parishes of a certain type or sometimes referred to as "High and Dry."

Nothing in incense is wet.

Is it?

---

Maybe it means dry as in non-inhaling.
 

---

Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
Looking at Ultrapsike's ingredient list made me wonder why non-incense-using parishes of a certain type or sometimes referred to as "High and Dry."

Nothing in incense is wet.

Is it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The103rd (The Ship's Boatboy):
... adds 3 spoonfuls of incense to the thurible ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ann:
That's one for each person and one for the pot.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fiddleback:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ann:
That's one for each person and one for the pot.

---

In a typical F in F parish, yes.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Crotalus:
103, the reference is to tea.

---

Doh!

I'm really stupid aren't I?

Anyway - Knowing FiF priests, it would have to be something a little stronger than tea

-103

[ 24. July 2004, 23:47: Message edited by: The103rd (The Ship's Boatboy) ]
 

---

Posted by Crotalus (# 4959) on :
 
However, when Fiddleback thinks F-i-F use one spoonful of incense for each person and one for the pot, he is surely thinking of the botafumeiro
 

---

Posted by Saint Chad (# 5645) on :
 
Presumably the mega-pot will be put to use today!
 

---

Posted by The103rd (The Ship's Boatboy) (# 5846) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Crotalus:
However, when Fiddleback thinks F-i-F use one spoonful of incense for each person and one for the pot, he is surely thinking of the botafumeiro

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The103rd (The Ship's Boatboy):
Now I really don't see the point in that - Incense is measured in "Clunkage" and a big thing like that cannot possibly clunk, it just swings which is useless!

Does anybody else measure in Clunkage? - I'm sure there is probably a metric equivilant now!

---

quote:

---

a) Person in charge of the thurible, which is a tin can on chains in which incense is burnt on charcoals.
b) fire-raiser-in-chief to the Celebrant.
c) person tasked with making the choir cough loudly. There is a system of rewards based on coughs per unit of incense imposed.
d) server who has the most fun.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Dumb Acolyte:
A new thurifer recently dumped the pot by tangling the foot of the thurifer in the chains as he was incensing the choir.

---

I can't quite picture this, DA. What was the thurifer's foot doing up in the chains? Or was this some kind of liturgical dance you do at the censings?

[ 31. July 2004, 01:21: Message edited by: Ultraspike ]
 

---

Posted by The103rd (The Ship's Boatboy) (# 5846) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Dumb Acolyte:
Clunkage? Dear, me.

There is something of a division among the experienced thurifers chez nous. The older and best thurifers do it just fine. Others think it a noisy distraction, especially during the elevations.

A new thurifer recently dumped the pot by tangling the foot of the thurifer in the chains as he was incensing the choir. Two-thirds of the pot landed on the runner and made a nasty burn mark. His first (and last) spill.

I believe the best retort against clinking the body of the thurible against the chains was made by the organist in our sister parish: As the chains have not been tuned, please don't play them.

---

Firstly - I can't quite picture HOW the thurifer could get his foot stuck in the thurible, but then again prehaps I don't want to know, I'll just get ideas

Secondaly - I was told to ALWAYS bounce the thurible off the chains, especially at elevations - the clunkage can even replace the bells at some churches (not my own, but I have been a visiting thurifer to nearby parishes which don't have thier own thurifers and also don't have bells!)

Thirdly - Please note that Clunkage is a word which is © ME!
I just like the word Clunkage, it sounds so dirty

-103
 

---

Posted by The Dumb Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
Yes, yes, yes, Smarty Pants--the pair of you. Substitute thurible for thurifer.
 

---

Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
Aha! Sometimes the subconscious brain works so well the conscious brain never realizes what happened.

I do remember having a sense of "huh?" when I first read that bit about the foot and the chain, but then I realized it wasn't the person's foot, but rather the object's foot. But I made this mental correction without noticing what necessitated it, and thus was puzzled by the snide posts.

This is especially odd, since at the two churches where I am involved enough to know, the thuribles don't have feet.

Which is a great lead-in to a couple of sub-topics: Does your thurible have feet? Considering they get hot, why would any thurible not have feet?

[typos, typos ]

[ 02. August 2004, 00:56: Message edited by: jlg ]
 

---

Posted by The Dumb Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
Yowie zowie. This thread really is snuffling off into the High Weeds.

Feet. Hmmmm. Yes, each thurible our crowd uses does have a foot. The bowl of the everyday thurible is spun brass, as is the base, or foot. The base is spun somewhat like the bowl, but smaller. They are attached flat part to flat part. So, were the foot to contact the floor, the shape of the contact surface would be annular. Is that clear? The silver thurible, bowl and base, are hexagonal in cross section, but topologically the same as the brass one. So, thuribles can have feet, as do mollusks, but they needn't look like the one at the end of your leg, if you are so fortunate as to have one there.

In my story I thought a foot might more easily be imagined to tangle with the chains than a base (modulo my typo).

Now, to the use of this foot. Well-trained thurifers will know that a thurible pendent by chain is inherently stable when hanging. Ill-trained thurifers who attempt rest their thurible on this foot are begging for it to overturn.

Our thuribles can get hotter than the hinges of hell, which is why we keep the blessed oven mitt close to hand in the sacristy.
 

---

Posted by The103rd (The Ship's Boatboy) (# 5846) on :
 
Ours has a foot - it also has a little church building on the top, so when it's really smoky it looks like the church is on fire! Ohhh - it's so funny

-103
 

---

Posted by Chocoholic (# 4655) on :
 
I recently went to a service at an abbey where the thurible was place on the floor in front of the altar during the service. I was surprised as it was on carpet. Our is always held by the top as they are hot and presuably the weight of the chains could cause it to fall.

Does anyone else put their thurible down?

[spelling and UBB]

[ 02. August 2004, 12:52: Message edited by: Chocoholic ]
 

---

Posted by Back-to-Front (# 5638) on :
 
Hmmmm,

The purpose of swinging the thurible is to keep the charcoal alight.

Therefore, I would only stop swinging it if the incense had all burnt away and there were a large volume of acrid charcoal smoke emanating from the thurible rather than the fragrant incense. For the more experienced thurifer, this should be a rare occurrence, but it does happen.

I cannot see any reason for actually putting it down, though. One of my previous churches developed carpet rings as a result of this practice.
 

---

Posted by The103rd (The Ship's Boatboy) (# 5846) on :
 
We hang our thurible on a stand - I really do try not to hit the floor incase it melts.

Actually, I have a little problem with my thurible, when it gets really hot it jams shut and I can't open it unless I stick a knife in it. People have been cleaning it because they said it was gunk but it still jams shut!
Any suggestions......?

-103
 

---

Posted by Chocoholic (# 4655) on :
 
I went to 2 services where they used incense and it was put down during both. It puffed away for a little while, presumably until the incense ran out.

[ 02. August 2004, 13:27: Message edited by: Chocoholic ]
 

---

Posted by Back-to-Front (# 5638) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The103rd (The Ship's Boatboy):
We hang our thurible on a stand - I really do try not to hit the floor incase it melts.

Actually, I have a little problem with my thurible, when it gets really hot it jams shut and I can't open it unless I stick a knife in it. People have been cleaning it because they said it was gunk but it still jams shut!
Any suggestions......?

-103

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Back-to-Front:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The103rd (The Ship's Boatboy):
We hang our thurible on a stand - I really do try not to hit the floor incase it melts.

Actually, I have a little problem with my thurible, when it gets really hot it jams shut and I can't open it unless I stick a knife in it. People have been cleaning it because they said it was gunk but it still jams shut!
Any suggestions......?

-103

---

Hmmm,

I was going to suggest that it may be the resin build-up (gunk), but as you say, it has already been cleaned.

Without meaning to cause offence, has it been cleaned properly? I mean, if you look at the inside of the lid, especially where it meets the base, is there any brown/black build-up? If so, this may be the cause of the problem. Ethanol, or any other organic solvent will do the trick. Just invest in some goggles, latex gloves and use an old toothbrush. Have patience, and with a bit of elbow grease, it should clean up. You will need to give it a good wash and then a polish afterwards, but it will be well worth it.

Alternatively, someone once suggested giving it a good long boil - for hours. Apparently it makes the house smell lovely and makes it look good as new.

If it is not a resin build-up, then it may have just lost shape with age and use - heat makes metal pliable, and if it has been accidentally bashed against a pew/wall/congregant &c while hot, it may have altered the shape slightly. See if you can find any kinks in the shape. The light use of a small hammer should get it sorted. Just ensure that you hammer the inside.I hope this helps.

---

I don't do the cleaning, the sacrastry ladies do all of that. It looks pretty clean and I don't think there any dents (There certainly weren't any BEFORE I used it yesterday )
I'll take a look at it tommorow, i'm not sure about boiling it, it's very valuable and if i ruin it, i'll be in a lot of trouble.....

-103
 

---

Posted by The Dumb Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 

quote:

---

Back-to-Front alleges:
The purpose of swinging the thurible is to keep the charcoal alight.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Back-to-Front:
It is too high a ratio of charcoal smoke to incense that causes people's eyes & lungs to react, and not the incense itself.
People who do have genuine reactions to the contents of the thurible (and not the fakers - re: thread from a few months ago), are usually very understanding when it is explained to them that they are choking on the charcoal smoke and not the incense, and that the solution to the problem is to use more, not less incense. This balances the ratio.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Dumb Acolyte:
Perhaps it seems so, Siegfried, but Back-to-Front is correct. Maybe an air quality engineer will be along shortly to speak of particulate count and such, but I hope not.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Siegfried:
The charcoal smoke is still there. It's just being supplemented (and masked) by the incense smoke.

---

You are correct, in that there will still be charcoal smoke, but I should imagine that as more incense is placed on top of the charcoal, that less oxygen gets to the charcoal and it produces less smoke, while at the same time the amount of incense smoke increases.
 

---

Posted by Sacristan (# 3548) on :
 
The solution to this smoke problem caused by coals, we were told many years ago, was to use an electric thurible. They were being marketed though the mail.

The electric thurible worked on a rechargeable battery which could be plugged in to an outlet. There was an on/off switch for the heating element itself.

Did anyone ever buy or see one of these things?
They looked like they were designed for inter-galactic worship.
 

---

Posted by Back-to-Front (# 5638) on :
 
I think someone posted a link many many moons ago, but I cannot remember whether or not it was here. In any case, they are still available.

I cannot imagine what happens when the gunk needs to be cleaned out. Surely the element gets a bit manky and needs a good scrub, or are replacements available?
 

---

Posted by Sacristan (# 3548) on :
 
B-t-F,

Thanks for the above link. Most interesting. It is different form the one which we had seen in the sales flyer mailed to the parish office. This one is not as ugly as the other one.

O.K., now...someone with lots of spare cash...buy it and let us know what it is like.

Sacristan
 

---

Posted by Ultraspike (# 268) on :
 
Anyone who'd pay that kind of money for that piece of crap should just hire somebody to make a cool one. Could be very easily done, I'd think. Hmmm....
 

---

Posted by The Dumb Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
Ultraspike, Do you know shops that fabricate nice thuribles? TDA
 

---

Posted by Ultraspike (# 268) on :
 
I know a silversmith here who can make anything you can imagine! It wouldn't be cheap tho.

But on second thought, I think electric thuribles would be like electric barbecue grills. You lose something without that charcoal, that organic negrido element.
 

---

Posted by The Dumb Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
Does she work in brass, too?

Both our brass and the silver thuribles are still well serviceable at 90 years, but we need to think about the coming years when they'll be more suitable for lighter duty.
 

---

Posted by Ultraspike (# 268) on :
 
Yes, he does brass work also. Very good at restoring things. I'll give you his address at our next incense meet.
 

---

Posted by Chocoholic (# 4655) on :
 
This is a cleaning question again. I've got some acetone and a brush, about how much will I need and is it better to warm the thurible first? Our thurible is brass, is there anything I shouldn't do with it?
 

---

Posted by Ultraspike (# 268) on :
 
Just pour a few ounces of acetone into the bowl of the thurible and wipe resin off with a paper towel. You could use a brush if you have alot of crevices or metal work, but paper works well for wiping off resin. No need to heat the thurible. And remember to keep away from flames when you use acetone.
 

---

Posted by Chocoholic (# 4655) on :
 
Thanks, most of the gunge is in the lid which does have quite a lot of decoration.
 

---

Posted by Sacristan (# 3548) on :
 
You might want to let it sit in the acetone for a bit. However, remember to be careful of flames/fire.
 

---

Posted by The103rd (The Ship's Boatboy) (# 5846) on :
 
Whatever you do, don't try cleaning it with petrol/light fluid

-103
 

---

Posted by Chocoholic (# 4655) on :
 
Although acetone may even be more flammable than those!

My main problem is loads of resin build up inside the lid which has lots of decorative bits in. I don't know what its made of and don't want to damage it. It isn't silver and its not brass but its a silver colour, someone suggested a tin like material. I've got some off but ran out of acetone. I did manage to get the stuff round the inside of the lid which was making it stick when it got hot. I've read a lot about resin build up making it smell bad but this hasn't happened to ours.

[ 14. September 2004, 18:15: Message edited by: Chocoholic ]
 

---

Posted by Ubi Caritas (# 8985) on :
 
I know that there has been alot on here about the best brand of incense, but please allow me to ask the following:

-I am a sacristan in a RC church. We used to use Laudate Incense, made by the Trappists at St. Joseph Abbey in Spencer, MA. It is a very nice scent...woodsy, with a pronounced cinnamon and orange scent that works well at Christmas. However, it produces smoke that our choir finds hard to deal with. We switched to Glastonbury, made by Anglican monks in England (the name of the abbey escapes me at the moment). I learned about Glastonbury incense from the sacristan of the Church of the Advent in Boston--an AC church famous for it's use of both smells and bells. They mix it with pure frankincense. I mixed it with frankincense that I bought from an Orthodox monastery but the resin of the frankincense really does a number on the thurible. We now have a thurible that is sticky and the chains do not operate smoothly. :-(

So, we have been using just the Glastonbury incense, and despite a good amount of smoke (but not enough, in my opinion), the choir is pleased with the brand.

I recently went to St. John the Evangelist Church in Boston (also an AC church) and they had billows of smoke...and, of course, I inquired as to what brand they were using. The sacristan there told me that they use Basilica from Prinknash Abbey. He also told me that he mixes it with pure frankincense and myrh. I asked about the charcoal and he said that they use Three Kings Charcoal.

Now--I am looking for the best incense for producing lots of clouds of wonderful smelling smoke. I also am wondering what brand of charcoal you all advise using. I cannot use real charcoal (Kingsford) because we just don't have the right space, equipment, etc to do that.

How many briquettes should I use in a very average sized thurible? How long before the liturgy should it be lit? Do I need to add any additional charcoal during the liturgy?

We only use it in the entrance procession, at the offertory, and in the recessional. Our liturgy goes for one solid hour, sometimes a little longer.

Many thanks!
 

---

Posted by TonyK (# 35) on :
 
Just a bump, to give Ubi Caritas another chance - though he's probably given up and left us by now!

Some time ago the non-availability of Rosa Mystica was mentioned.

It seems to have re-appeared! I have just come back from a pilgrimage at Walsingham and the Shrine Shop (and apparently one or two other places in the village) had incense under that name. I gathered from conversation that it was still hard to get - their supply was rationed - and a box (1/2 kilo?? - perhaps more) was priced at £21.50.
 

---

Posted by Carilloneur (# 8279) on :
 
Indeed, Rosa Mystica is available in the UK! I took delivery of a small jar this morning (in readiness for Easter Sunday) which cost £12.75 plus £6.50 postage and packing. (I hope it's worth it!).

Supplied after a delay of about a month, by Luzar Vestments of Bicester, Oxfordshire.
 

---

Posted by Back-to-Front (# 5638) on :
 
You know, it's a lot more cost-effective, and I should imagine, just as effective, to just buy the frankincense and bung in your own rose essential oil from The Body Shop?
 

---

Posted by Scott Knitter (# 6278) on :
 
Isn't all the scent-mixing what causes coughing? Is the scent really that important, other than that there be one? I think pure frankincense smells churchy, is less irritating, and smokes up better than floral mixtures.

Besides, I eventually will have to learn to be a thurifer, and I don't want the job to be like that of a chef. I'd like to keep it simple.
 

---

Posted by Chocoholic (# 4655) on :
 
I was recently offered some candle samples from a UK based company and they sent me a sample box which included 5 small samples of their own blends of incense. I don't know if they send these out a lot but if anyone wants the name of the company PM me.

Choccie
 

---

Posted by Back-to-Front (# 5638) on :
 
Hayes and Finch does that, I think. Upon request, one can be sent small samples of Basilica, Priory and Cathedral, among others. The Basilica is tolerable, but I find that these blends are nasty and sickly-sweet and that Scott is right - frankincense is best.

It was Ultraspike who gave me a detailed description of her blends and I find that this method works well. There's nothing wrong with taking a mortar and pestle to some frankincense and adding essential oils. Myrrh is not easy to get hold of in these parts but I understand mising that with farkincense for Lent is wonderful. I add rose oil for feasts of Our Lady, Sweet Orange for Easter and Christmass.

Pestling the frankincense ensures that there are grains of different sizes. One problem with large grains is that they take a while to get going, but uniform smal grains, although they burn immediately, they don't last as long as they need to. A range of grain sizes is best.

What causes the choking (apart from serial fakers, who steal credibility from the people who genuinely do suffer - and there are a few fakers), is the misguided notion that less incense = a smaller chance of choking.

This is the problem, because using less incense means that those present are inhaling a greater proportion of charcoal smoke. An increased amount of incense allows less oxygen to get to the charcoal, thus decreasing the amount of charcoal smoke produced, and also increasing the proportion of incense smoke.
 

---

Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
*bump*

Posts from another thread:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bells&Smells, 03 June, 2005 19:11:
Please Help!

For our Rev'd Mother's anniversary of ordination this September, we're going to be having incense (and lots of it, since I'm swinging!).

Though good Catholic practise is prefered to the usual Anglican mess that is the liturgy today by some of us (the Rector, Rev'd Mother Curate, myself, and the churchwardens included!), the Parish isn't quite ready for general use of incense and Sanctus bells etc. so this will be a somewhat unusual occasion.

We've recently located the Parish thurible (which was, for some reason, very well hidden - I blame the Protty gang!) so that's all good, but we don't have any incense/coals yet. I was hoping for a bit of advice from those in the know.....

We shouldn't have to worry about too much smoke etc. since we'll be publishing the details of the service in the Parish magazine in advance - so those who really object to the Catholic practises will not turn up.

Any help will be gratefully recieved!

---

quote:

---

Reply by Back-to-Front, 03 June, 2005 19:26:
Don't get cheap charcoal - it isn't worth the saving over the decent stuff, and will cause more coughs and respiratory reactions.

The answer to coughs is to use more incense, not less - it is usually the charcoal smoke that elicits the reactions and not the incense.

Make sure that the thurible is clean. Some ethanol and a toothbrush can help rid it of any incense gunk.

The thurifer walks behind the taperers in well-ordered Anglican churches.

Do not use the nasty, sickly-sweet, pre-prepared blends, and certainly nothing with a cedarwood base. Frankincense is best, pestled into grains of various sizes. This ensures that there is no delay in smoke-production, while at the same time, ensuring that it doesn't burn away all at once.

If you do use frankincense, you can add a few drops of an essential oil (The Body Shop is very useful here ). Rose and Sweet Orange work rather well (though not together).

I'll post more if I think of anything else. I'm sure that there are others who will have much more useful advice.

---

quote:

---

Posted by Corpus cani, 03 June, 2005 20:00:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Back-to-Front:
The thurifer walks behind the taperers in well-ordered Anglican churches.

---

Agree with every word bar the above B2F old chap. Both Ritual Notes and O'Connell make it clear that the thurifer leads the procession, i.e. walking in front of the taperers.

---

quote:

---

Posted by 103 (One-O-Three), 03 June, 2005 20:13:
Yes - Thurifer leads in front of acolytes in lovely white or oatmeal cassock albs

---

quote:

---

Response from Back-to-Front, 03 June, 2005 20:23:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Corpus cani:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Back-to-Front:
The thurifer walks behind the taperers in well-ordered Anglican churches.

---

Agree with every word bar the above B2F old chap. Both Ritual Notes and O'Connell make it clear that the thurifer leads the procession, i.e. walking in front of the taperers.

---

...which further lends weight to my argument.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MaryO, 03 June, 2005 20:30:
The Scriptural warrant for the thurifer/taperers is that the people of Israel were led by a pillar of cloud by day, and a pillar of fire by night.

---

[ 03. June 2005, 20:43: Message edited by: jlg ]
 

---

Posted by Back-to-Front (# 5638) on :
 
Thank you, jlg.
 

---

Posted by Corpus cani (# 1663) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three
...lovely white or oatmeal cassock albs

---

I think you'll find the Oxymorons thread in the Circus, 103.

Corpus
 

---

Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
Take the cassock-albs silliness someplace else people, and keep this a useful reference thread.
 

---

Posted by Living in Gin (# 2572) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bells&Smells:
Any help will be gratefully recieved!

---

Whatever you do, don't use bubbles.
 

---

Posted by Chocoholic (# 4655) on :
 
Have you used a thurible before? If not practise swinging it and censing things as it will make it easier.

The following advice is really basic stuff so if you know this already I apologise.

If you need to get hold of charcoal and incense, the usual liturgical suppliers do both of these things, I think some of them do smaller boxes of incense too which you might want if you're not going to use it very often. The swift light charcoals are quite good.

You'll need a way of lighting them - you can hold them over a candle for a minute or two but if you have a gas ring or camping stove available they are hot in about 15 seconds. You'll be able to tell cos if you swing the thurible or wave the charcoal around the ring around the edge goes red.

A kitchen implement to hold the charcoals in the flame is also needed.

Before adding incense, open the lid a bit and swing the thruible to get the coals hot.

If you are having the incense for different parts of the service you may want to add a new coal for each. Do you have a thurible stand? If not find somewhere you can hang it when its hot and not being used.

After the service empty the coals outside the church on concrete and pour cold water over them.


Hope this is helpful, PM me if you think I can be of any further help!

Choccie
 

---

Posted by Frater_Frag (# 2184) on :
 
At my church we use mostly Three King´s incense. It tends to go easier on the lungs of most of our congo. Besides, it leaves a very pleasant smell afterwards...

When it comes down to cleaning the metallic handbag, I use paint-stripper, the version that you can buy on ordinary spray-cans. Just spray and wait, then rinse with hot water, if nescessary, repeat the procedure. Just be make sure that you have good ventilation when you use the paint-stripper!
 

---

Posted by Amazing Grace (# 4754) on :
 
To assist in cleaning, we often line the thurible with tinfoil.

Question for the assembled: who usually cleans the thurible at your place? The thurifers or the Altar Guild/sacristans?

Charlotte
 

---

Posted by 103 (One-O-Three) (# 5846) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amazing Grace:
To assist in cleaning, we often line the thurible with tinfoil.

Question for the assembled: who usually cleans the thurible at your place? The thurifers or the Altar Guild/sacristans?

Charlotte

---

Neither - we send it off to some specialist cleaners!!!

-103
 

---

Posted by Scott Knitter (# 6278) on :
 
I've twice cleaned a very grotty thurible by spraying the inside (not the silver plating!) with EZ-Off oven cleaner (the lemon-scented low-fumes type that doesn't require turning the oven on) and placing the thurible in the oven overnight (just to contain what fumes were given off). The next morning it wiped clean, and I lined it with foil to help make it easier next time...and not require oven cleaner.
 

---

Posted by Corpus cani (# 1663) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Neither - we send it off to some specialist cleaners!!!

---

What? Every time you use it? I spy a parish that doesn't pay its quota!

Corpus
 

---

Posted by Bells&Smells (# 9553) on :
 
Thanks to all who have replied, this has been most useful (and reading through this earlier thread has helped too).

It seems that using lots of incense on expensive charcoal is best, and that either Prinknash Basillica or Frankincnse with essential oils is best for the actual incense.

This will be the first time that I have actually swung for Mass (though I've seen it pleanty of times, and have had a quick go before), so I will make sure I practise. Any tips will be gratefully recieved.

I'm keen to know how many charcoal briquettes should be used (for a moderate-large thurible), and if its possible to use just one set for the entire Mass (since I think it may be difficult to add more during Mass)?

Thanks again.
 

---

Posted by 103 (One-O-Three) (# 5846) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Corpus cani:

quote:

---

Originally posted by 103 (One-O-Three):
Neither - we send it off to some specialist cleaners!!!

---

What? Every time you use it? I spy a parish that doesn't pay its quota!

Corpus

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bells&Smells:
I'm keen to know how many charcoal briquettes should be used (for a moderate-large thurible),...

---

quote:

---

... and if its possible to use just one set for the entire Mass (since I think it may be difficult to add more during Mass)?

---

The trick is to stash a charcoal or two someplace near where the thurible will be at the time it needs replenishing (the credence table, the base of the thurible stand, next to the thurifer's chair/stool - anyplace it won't get stepped on). When the time* comes, the thurifer adopts the time-honored "if you act like you know what you're doing, you can get away with anything" face and just calmly goes to the thurible and does what's necessary, and then returns to his/her usual rest position.

*Decide beforehand on a particular time for this to happen, tied to some liturgical cue like the congregation standing to recite the Creed or when someone else will also be moving around, providing a bit of a distraction.
 

---

Posted by 103 (One-O-Three) (# 5846) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by jlg:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bells&Smells:
I'm keen to know how many charcoal briquettes should be used (for a moderate-large thurible),...

---

I'm no expert, but you'll need however many it takes to make a full single layer in your particular thurible; probably better to have a bit of overlap than big gaps that will let the incense grains fall through the charcoal layer.

quote:

---

... and if its possible to use just one set for the entire Mass (since I think it may be difficult to add more during Mass)?

---

The trick is to stash a charcoal or two someplace near where the thurible will be at the time it needs replenishing (the credence table, the base of the thurible stand, next to the thurifer's chair/stool - anyplace it won't get stepped on). When the time* comes, the thurifer adopts the time-honored "if you act like you know what you're doing, you can get away with anything" face and just calmly goes to the thurible and does what's necessary, and then returns to his/her usual rest position.

*Decide beforehand on a particular time for this to happen, tied to some liturgical cue like the congregation standing to recite the Creed or when someone else will also be moving around, providing a bit of a distraction.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jlg:
**(Our thurible is designed with large openings in the cover, but no way to lift the cover, once it's hot, except with a hotpad or tongs or something.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jlg:
...Where's a good place (US) to get a decent thurible and boat? I've a mind to make a tat donation.

---

You could try one of these, I´m must confess that I´m rather curious about them!

Electric Thurible
 

---

Posted by 103 (One-O-Three) (# 5846) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frater_Frag:

quote:

---

Originally posted by jlg:
...Where's a good place (US) to get a decent thurible and boat? I've a mind to make a tat donation.

---

You could try one of these, I´m must confess that I´m rather curious about them!

Electric Thurible

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Frater_Frag:
You could try one of these, I´m must confess that I´m rather curious about them! Electric Thurible

---

I'm intrigued too, in an appalled kind of way.

What do you suppose "eight cycles per load" means? Makes it sound like a washing machine!

Corpus
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
The e-bay thurible is used in Buddhist temple ceremonies - I've seen one like it. It's not swung towards anything bnut is waved in a circular motion befoe the statue(s) of Buddha. It's not dissimilar to the arto ceremony in hindu temples where a lamp is waved.

The electronic thurible seems like a good idea because all those people who moan about incense and its effects on their asthma might be won over - I think it's largely the additives in speedy-light charcoal that art off their attacks. We had less complaints in the days of my youth when we could only use slow charcoal and stand around with tongues for half an hour to get started. (Then again, we had less asthma then, I quess)
 

---

Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
Oooh, I like that Buddhist one with the dragon!

Father M, however, is a Very Good Catholic Boy and considers Eastern Religions opportunities for Satan. He definitely wouldn't like it. Not to mention it has no chains for swinging.

However, we do share pyromaniac tendencies (you should see our Easter Vigil fire! ) and no way is an "electric" thurible going to cross the threshold of our church.

Btw, I found a picture of our thurible (it's the upper-right one) on CorgiGreta's site. It seems it is supposed to have a little bakelite knob on the cover for lifting when hot -- ours must have been broken off at some time in the past. If it had that, it would actually be a nice thurible; it's very solid and heavy and so swings nicely and easily, and the openings are big and allow great clouds of incense out with very little action.

The boat, with its fixed lid, is still an abomination, however.
 

---

Posted by brackenrigg (# 9408) on :
 
My local cathedral (West Riding) uses a small thurible (called the handbag) for women and wimps to swing, and a large one for blokes.
Smoke is in evidence at Sunday Solemn Masses and weekday Solemn Evensongs, and 360 degree swings are allowed.
Parts of the cathedral are out of bounds to the thurifer which makes for more fun in processions, when the thurifer goes off on a different route.
 

---

Posted by Crotalus (# 4959) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by brackenrigg:
Parts of the cathedral are out of bounds to the thurifer

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Crotalus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by brackenrigg:
Parts of the cathedral are out of bounds to the thurifer

---

Why?

---

Smoke dectectors?

Carys
 

---

Posted by lazystudent (# 5172) on :
 
Retired standards laid up in side chapels?
 

---

Posted by sir galahad (# 9912) on :
 
I havn't been a thrurifer for a couple of years- so this may be terribly outre now (apologies) but we always used to gring up half of the incense in a coffee grinder before depositing it in the boat etc. etc.
 

---

Posted by Ultraspike (# 268) on :
 
Welcome, Sir Galahad. I assume you meant to say "grind". Be careful not to grind too fine or you will be burning it up too quickly and it will smell more like burning than roasting. You really don't need to grind it unless you're talking about huge chunks of frankincense and myrrh, which I do sometimes grind to small chunks in a small food processor. But most commercial brands and my own blends do not require grinding. We have a thurifer who likes to grind the incense to a powder with a mortar and pestle (which I now keep hidden). Then he wonders why it smells so acrid.
 

---

Posted by The Dumb Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 

quote:

---

My jaw drops at:
My local cathedral (West Riding) uses a small thurible (called the handbag) for women and wimps to swing, and a large one for blokes.

---

quote:

---

Ultraspike cautions:
Be careful not to grind too fine or you will be burning it up too quickly....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angelus:
[17 October, 2005 08:36]
I am preparing to act as Thurifer at our Patronal Festival in November, and when I was at Walsingham recently I bought some lovely sweet Frankincense. I am planning to use it, but it comes in very large chunks and I wondered whether it would work when mixed in with our usual stuff, Prinknash Basilica.
Any thoughts?

---

quote:

---

Reply posted by Cosmo:
[17 October, 2005 08:52]
Unlikely to work with that horrible acrid Basilica (which is banned from the Cosmodrome except in Lent and Advent for penitence). The nastiness of the scent given off by Basilica is such that even sweetsmelling stuff is unlikely to make any difference.

I would suggest, if you prefer to use Prinknash products, to use their 'Priory' blend or even 'Sanctuary' and then stir your own lumps with the rest; it doesn't need to be cruched up. These brands are much finer in texture, have a more delicate scent and are much more flexible than ghastly Basilica.

---

quote:

---

Reply posted by dj_ordinaire:
[17 October, 2005 09:01]
Rather depends upon the church in which you use it - Basilica can go horribly wrong, but in some churches is more-or-less your only option - there's a lot of variation from uilding to building (or Holy House, or 'drome, &c.)...

I'd imagine that the effect of adding frankincense would be similarly stochastic, so whatever you decide I'd suggest trying it out a few days before the service just to get the measure of it.

---

quote:

---

Posted by Angelus:
[17 October, 2005 09:23]
Thanks guys,

I have never really been a fan of Basilica, but our head server seems to like it. I will suggest we try one of the sweeter Prinknash brands.

O - how do you mean it can vary from building to building? Do you mean as in the size of the building?

---

 

---

Posted by Back-to-Front (# 5638) on :
 
Frankincense on its own is quite sufficient. No need to mix it with the sickly-sweet pre-blended stuff (and I must consur with those who have gone before about Basilica). Frankincense just smells of "church". That's the best I can express it.

If the size of the grains is a problem, pestle them into various sizes. All too large and it takes ages before they start to burn properly. All too small and you get an instant puff of smoke that disappears in a few seconds. You want to get a mix of sizes.

If your parish is dedicated in honour of Our Lady, why not add a few drops of rose essential oil - just enough to add a light rose scent and not so much that the church ends up smelling like a whore's boudoir.

Do let us know how you get on.
 

---

Posted by Fiddleback (# 2809) on :
 
Basilica is sickly and very nasty - to the point of being eye-watering. The Burford Priory blends are generally far better than anything they turn out in Prinknash - except the one labeled 'Sherborne' which is crap. Their best are 'Evesham' and 'Glastonbury'.
 

---

Posted by Fr Alex (# 10304) on :
 
Just to let you know, Rosa Mystica should now be available again direct from Alton Abbey - last year it was in the final drying process.

Also, how do you know what a a whore's boudoir smells like Back to Front?
 

---

Posted by Back-to-Front (# 5638) on :
 
Hey, a girl's got to make a living.
 

---

Posted by David Goode (# 9224) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fr Alex:
Just to let you know, Rosa Mystica should now be available again direct from Alton Abbey - last year it was in the final drying process.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Back-to-Front:
Hey, a girl's got to make a living.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angelus:
O - how do you mean it can vary from building to building? Do you mean as in the size of the building?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Corpus cani:
Erm... no I meant to add that, in Trumpton, we use various Prinknash blends with no real problems. Then again, our Lady of Trumpton is a big enough building to conceal hideous odours whilst retaining the "scent of the cense" for days after the Mass.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by David Goode:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fr Alex:
Just to let you know, Rosa Mystica should now be available again direct from Alton Abbey - last year it was in the final drying process.

---

I bought a bag of it in Walsingham at the beginning of September. Very nice. Nearly all gone now, though.

Dave

---

That stuff is nauseating. Way too much rose, darlin, it's not a tart's boudoir. I have found that a few drops of high quality Rose Maroc with alot of frankincense is the best blend ever. I used to mix alot of different oils but the purity of frankincense with a little rose is surely the scent of heaven! Add some myrrh for penitential seasons.
 

---

Posted by The Dumb Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
Y'all should pay attention to Ultraspike and B2F and take their advice. We did and we've never looked back. A nice frankincense is really all you need, enlivened as they suggest with rose or myrrh.

Search high and low until you find an importer who will sell you a 50 kilo sack of it. Then you can have done with the ruinously expensive here-a-pound-there-a-pound purchasing model.
 

---

Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
Any advice on where to get a 50# sack? I'll happily disburse it among my local parishes in return for a promise to make full use of it.
 

---

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by jlg:
Does anyone else have opinions about this? Is it just sheer quantity of space or do the materials (stone and wood versus plasterboard and carpet?) make a difference?

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quote:

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Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:

quote:

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Originally posted by jlg:
Does anyone else have opinions about this? Is it just sheer quantity of space or do the materials (stone and wood versus plasterboard and carpet?) make a difference?

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I'm not really sure - I asked a more experienced friend about this and he muttered darkly about 'damp' being involved... it just seems to be an empirical thing.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Really? The *only* way?

[we were talking about Rosa Mystica at the time... so maybe...]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cosmo:
'good with colours'

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Cosmo:
It's only the straight priests who are happy getting the lace albs out of the cupboard, getting the Banners of Our Lady from out of the drawers as well as using the campest incense going.

Those clergy who are 'good with colours' are too scared to; very sad.

Cosmo

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Darlin, you need to get over to New York more often.
 

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Posted by Cosmo (# 117) on :
 
Always happy to do so, my dear. 'Have lace and sermon, will travel'; that's my motto.

BTW, my new Director of Music, who has not been brought up an A/C, told me last Sunday that he now enjoyed opening his briefcase a couple of days later and getting a good whiff of incense wafting out from it. There's obviously hope for him.

Cosmo
 

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Posted by angloid (# 159) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ultraspike:
I used to mix alot of different oils but the purity of frankincense with a little rose is surely the scent of heaven! Add some myrrh for penitential seasons.

---

Did any UK shipmates see the wonderful South Bank show with Alan Bennett the other week? He gave a hilarious account of stopping off at a country church on his way to a funeral, and encountering the posh village lady who was telling him about the problems they were having with 'the myrrh'. He was puzzled because 'it didn't seem a particularly high or ritualistic church', but she kept insisting, 'no, I mean the myrrh'. Until Bennett twigged that she was talking about the mower.
 

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Posted by Corpus cani (# 1663) on :
 
Angloid - as one would expect from Sir Alan of Bennett.

But I trust you meant it was

quote:

---

an hilarious account

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Corpus cani:
Angloid - as one would expect from Sir Alan of Bennett.

But I trust you meant it was

quote:

---

an hilarious account

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Corpus

---

quote:

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Originally posted by angloid:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Corpus cani:
But I trust you meant it was

quote:

---

an hilarious account

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Corpus

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Only if you're common or posh and don't aspirate the 'h'.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ultraspike:
I have found that a few drops of high quality Rose Maroc with alot of frankincense is the best blend ever. I used to mix alot of different oils but the purity of frankincense with a little rose is surely the scent of heaven! Add some myrrh for penitential seasons.

---

Not all frankincense and myrrh seem to be created equal. Also, Rose Maroc is pricey. Not for playing around with. Any suggested sources? Also, what exact proportion are you talking about - a few drops, a lot?

A friend want to use incense Christmas Eve, so this thread has been very informative. I've already said that if they put dry ice in the thurible, there will surely be people taken away in ambulances.

A local Coptic Orthodox congregation has incense for the duration of their three-hour service. No demons survive this sort of treatment. The priest does perfect 360's in front of and in back of the altar with an open thurible.
 

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Posted by dalej42 (# 10729) on :
 
Interesting, my church had an article in the weekly about incense and the days for 2006 in which it would be used.

Ash Wednesday is listed as one of those days. Is this common? Last year, the clergy brought some of the palms from 2004 Palm Sunday and burned them but there was no thurible.
 

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Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
Burning some palms blessed the previous year is the proper way to create the ashes for Ash Wednesday, though it's normally done ahead of time (not during the mass). In any case, it wouldn't be done in the thurible, which isn't big enough and shouldn't be subjected to such a messy procedure.

The only things allowed in a thurible are charcoal (to provide the heat) and incense.
 

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Posted by Lamburnite (# 9516) on :
 
Today at mass, the coals in the thurible were so hot that they burst into flame when the celebrant sprinked on incense at the Introit. "That is only supposed to happen on Pentecost," muttered the deacon as we blew them out....
 

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Posted by The Dumb Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
Jiminy Cricket! What was your thurifer doing in the sacristy!? The introit is a little early in the service for the thurible to get that hot.

The coals in the thuribles sometimes catch fire at our prayer shack, but only after a long procession with plenty of 360s. They don't ignite during the 360s, since there is too much air forced across the coals. But, once we reach the station we've had to deploy one of the blow-hard sacred monsters to surpress the fire.
 

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Posted by Ultraspike (# 268) on :
 
Lamburnite, we are mixing our standard Kingsford charcoal with "all natural" charcoal, which burns much hotter. We have two schools of thought about charcoal (or three, if you count quik-lites). We were using the natural charcoal (without additives) but switched to Kingsford which is all uniformly sized briquets. Picnic season was over before we remembered we should have stocked up for the winter, so we are resorting to the natural charcoal stockpile to get us through till Labor Day or near unto. The natural charcoal comes in largist chunks which we have to chop up to fit in the thurible. A tedious and messy process, hence the switch to Kingsford. But I remembered last night as thurifer at the Great O evensong that they take longer to heat through but stay much hotter and you often get fires, which are not pleasant. Kingsford has some kind of paper additive but it burns quicker and stays warm though not blazing, which is preferable.

As for the rose maroc, it is abit pricey ($36/2ml) but you can make alot of incense for that small amount mixed with a couple gallons of frankincense and optional myrrh. I get it from Enfleurage. Good frankincense is harder to come by as most stores sell second rate stuff. I have a great Somalian connection here in NY but you have to be in the tristate area. I would go to your local Arab spice shop and inquire.
 

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Posted by Petrified (# 10667) on :
 
It's major feast time again and so time for the biannual attempt to get our small, very ornate thurible clean.

I note the advice about acetone for the gunk but does anyone have a good suggestion for the brass. Years of old polish and dirt have accumulated in the ornamentation. Last time I was advised to try soaking in citric acid
but this had little effect.

I am thinking of boiling it in washing powder, this has been good for other jobs, including removing paint. Is this a good idea?
 

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Posted by Back-to-Front (# 5638) on :
 
Didn't someone boil one for a few hours a couple of years ago and post back every now and then with progress? I found it rather entertaining.

I think it worked, TBH.

I used to use ethanol for the gunk.
 

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Posted by Chocoholic (# 4655) on :
 
I soaked ours in soda crystals and then jet washed it in the summer which seemed quite effective. It was very gunked up inside however.
I wouildn't necessarily recommend this. It's not brass and so I don't know what the soda would do to that. Also, the jet washing can damage it if it's delicate.

As far as the outside is concerned, brass cleaners available in hardware shops and elbow grease seems to be the only way.
 

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Posted by Frater_Frag (# 2184) on :
 
If the thurible is made of brass, you can use ordinary paint-stripper! Works like a charm... But be sure to have good ventilation when you do it! Spray, let it burn away at the gunk, then rinse in hot water, dry with paper, then repeat if nescessary.
 

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Posted by Petrified (# 10667) on :
 
Thanks for the suggestions.

I've given it a boil to loosen things up and it looks much better already. The encrusted gung was about 4mm thick!!
 

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Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
Time to have this on page one again, methinks.
 

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Posted by Archimandrite (# 3997) on :
 
It's been a while since this thread was active, and, leafing back, I see my question came up. However, it doesn't seem to have been firmly resolved, so I'll ask it again:

My reading of books on liturgy (starting with Fortescue...) leads me to the conclusion that there are two types of swing

Simplex - x1
Duplex - x2.

These are deployed in varying combination according to dignity and circumstance. So, in most places, the congregation is censed with 3x1 (although 3x2 is seen from time to time).
The Sacrament gets 3x2.

Occasionally, one sees or hears of something which ought to be called the Triplex - x3. People say, and it has been written in at least one of the Customaries on the thread on that subject, that the Sacrament (elevated or exposed) is censed with 3x3.

I've never found a reference to the triplex in any book which has footnotes, and is thus not just tat-porn written by people who believe that the MC can wear diamante' buckles and use the Sedia Gestatoria.

So, what is the consensus?
 

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Posted by Clavus (# 9427) on :
 

quote:

---

The censer is swung back and forth three times for the incensation of: the blessed sacrament, a relic of the true cross and images of the Lord solemnly exposed, the gifts on the altar, the altar cross, the Book of the Gospels, the Easter candle, the bishop or presbyter who is celebrant, a representative of the civil authority in official attendance at a liturgical celebration, the choir and people, the body of a deceased person. The censer is swung back and forth twice for the incensation of relics and images of the saints exposed for public veneration. The altar is incensed with a series of single swings... (Ceremonial of Bishops, 92, 93)

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Clavus:
In other words, nowadays if in doubt use three single swings!

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So, no more tic-tac-toe pattern and 2+1 circles over the gifts at the Offertory?
 

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Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
Maybe among the slackers of Clavus's crowd, but among ours the True Ceremony is upheld!

[ 18. May 2006, 00:01: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
 

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Posted by Archimandrite (# 3997) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Our crowd incenses the altar cross with three swings and the MBS is incensed with three swings during benediction.

Otherwise the celebrant is incensed with three doubles, as is the MBS and MPB after their words of institution, and the MBS/MPB at the Great Doxology.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by voxmystica:
To burn incense you need some self lighting charcoal...

---

Welcome aboard! Don't put yourself in the bad books immediately with talk like this!

Many would say that the instant-lighting stuff is vile, causing the "sweet-smelling savour" to go rancid very quickly, and that it's worth the little extra time and effort required to light real charcoal.

As for your question about Rosa Mystica, it stopped being manufactured for a while a few years ago. I've heard tales of monks becoming ill due to the manufactureing process. This probably explains the revised formula).
If you must burn incenses of various fragrances, then use them sparingly in a base of frankincense.

Alternatively, and less expensively, frnakincense with some drops of essential oil works well, and it is perfectly possible to get hold of rose essential oil, as well as sweet orange and numerous others suitable for incense.
 

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Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :
 
Hi, Hand-made Rosa Mystica is still available in the UK from Alton Abbey. (Note: - best to communicate with them by snail mail or fax. The phone is only answered 16:00 - 16:30 and no practicable electronic communication. Yet.) Don't know about sources in US, though.

Yes, they did stop making it for a while, as a number of the monks developed allergies due to the medieval manufacturing techniques used. Last time I looked, there were still stocks in the cupboard, though. I'm hoping one day to introduce them to more modern methods.

It can be very overpowering, but you can blend it with your favourite "normal" incense.

Hope this helps.
Q.
 

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Posted by Ultraspike (# 268) on :
 
Welcome, voxmystica. Solemn Cocktails, huh? I'll have to remember that for our next Guild meeting. A former rector looked very dimly at people burning church incense in their homes. And in the Old Testament it was absolutely forbidden. But frankincense and myrrh are such wonderful cleansing fragrances, I admit to using them in (rather expensive) sticks from Maroma. Once in a great while if I've been on vacation and the house smells like a cat barn, or if someone has died down the hall, I will light up some quik lites and burn some of my EXP church blend to quickly purify the air. But you should try to get some Kingsford original (not Matchlite) charcoal briquets. They are making them now with little grill marks which are perfect for burning incense. You have to have a high heat to properly burn incense, which quik lites don't achieve and those ceramic burners even less.

I would recommend getting some good quality frankincense and rose attar and blending your own. For what you'd pay for a box of Rosa Mystica you could make many times as much on your own. Just don't inhale the frankincense dust too much. I've heard from doctors that it's actually rather bad to inhale the dust which is quite resinous, but burning is okay and actually rather expectorant. The monks who used to make RM probably inhaled too much dust and not enough smoke.
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Quick note: the OT was really only concerned with people burning a particular kind of incense made to God's special recipe. As long as they stayed away from that "official" kind, no problem.
 

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Posted by Amazing Grace (# 95) on :
 
My local purveyor of fine religious articles sells Quick-Lite briquettes and small bags of frankincense resin for a reasonable price, so that's what I have at home. (Is that regular Kingsford charcoal, available in any store here in the US, or a special liturgical kind, TSA?)

We tend to use unblended frankincense at St. Spike's for our Solemn occasions. Someone got a little floral at the Epiphany and the deacon walked into the sacristry afterwards saying "It smells like my Italian grandmother!" It was also not well received by the choristers (people who don't usually complain, complained). We could probably do better than that blend by, say, adding essential oils to the frankincense, but so far nobody has taken this sort of project on.

Charlotte
 

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Posted by Ultraspike (# 268) on :
 
You can get Kingsford in the US very easily at any place that sells barbecue paraphernalia and grocery stores usually have them even in NYC. Surely they have something similar in the UK? Don't y'all do barbecues also?

Lamb, I think by extension from the OT, any incense I make for use at the altar I would feel wrong about burning at home unless it was for a house mass or other official service. Solemn cocktails? I think not.
 

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Posted by voxmystica (# 11487) on :
 
Thanks for the responses. St. Bertolin, I knew I would get in trouble for that statement about the self-lighting charcoal! I am well aware that the stuff is evil. I don't know where you can get the real stuff in the US. I did read that SMV NYC has their own gas burners to heat the real charcoal.

As for not being able to burn incense in the home due to the priest...I find a little odd. I guess if the incense was blessed and then used in the house it may be a different story. Some friends of mine sing Compline and use incense down in the basement during the school year. We put candles all around and it is a welcome relief to the busy school day. He is Lutheran, so we use the Brotherhood Prayer Book. I think it is basically the Liber minus Saints and BVM prayers...

There is not an Episcopal (Anglo-Catholic brand) that has a Solemn Mass around here. My best bet is to venture to D.C. to St. Paul's K Street for the feasts days. Which is about 2 hrs. And I usually play the organ on Sundays in Richomd. So, my experience with solid liturgy and incense is rare.
 

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Posted by voxmystica (# 11487) on :
 
And one more, would it be worth buying the original Rosa mystica that is stored in little glass jars or buying Alton Abbey? I have a friend going over that said he would bring some back for me. As well as a donation of some Glastonbury to a church in Detroit where my organ teacher plays. What is the difference between the Elmore abbey blends and the Prinknash?

A nice chapter on incense by the Ascension and St. Agnes D.C....all may know of this already

http://www.ascensionandsaintagnes.org/mass/freezeframe/AllFF.pdf
 

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Posted by mr_ricarno (# 6064) on :
 
Hi folks, on a trip to the Orthodox church at Walsingham today I purchased some Gardenia incense and some Rose incense.

I am serving as thurifer at a middle-high Anglican parish next week.

This means I need some advice on how to use the stuff.

Firstly, the church in question only seems to have the quick-light charcoal. This is something I can't avoid. How many coals would I need to use? Which sort of incense should I use? How much do I need to put on?
 

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Posted by voxmystica (# 11487) on :
 
mr ricarno I thought maybe some more experienced thurifers would help you out. Some people have said that you could use just plain charcoal. I think it may be a bit of a task to light it. The quik-lite stuff will do I suppose, though many may disagree. Probably only want to use one coal for the mid-high Anglican. You want to light the coal and leave for about 10-15 mins so it turns white/gray. Basically, you want it as hot as the little coal will go (which I think is much less heat than real charcoal) As far as how much you put on, I think the priest does that when the incense is blessed. Wait for the more knowledgeable to answer in-depth questions. If this is the first time your a thurifer you may want to do some studying...such as Ritual Notes. At least I would, hopefully others will have some input. If you are just going to wave some before the service, put a small teaspoon amount of what ever you have...rose sounds good, but usally used for Marian days.

I hope to get a response about the difference between the Prinknash and Elmore Abbey incenses, so I don't end up spending a fortune on something that might not be that good.
 

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Posted by Scott Knitter (# 6278) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by voxmystica:
I hope to get a response about the difference between the Prinknash and Elmore Abbey incenses, so I don't end up spending a fortune on something that might not be that good.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by voxmystica:
Do they use pure frankincense at Ascension in Chicago? I went there with a friend for Purification/Presentation/Candlemas and it was lovely. Just across the lake from me at Hope College.

I may try the frankincense with some rose or orange could be nice...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by voxmystica:
If you are just going to wave some before the service, put a small teaspoon amount of what ever you have...rose sounds good, but usally used for Marian days.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:
When I empty the thurible I normally take it outside the church and I rest the base on the ground, open the lid and then tip it upside down with my foot - I then tip it back upright (very carefully so that it doesn't tangle the chains)
I then stamp on the charcoal until it's nothing more than black dust.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sheela-na-gig:

What about an old paint can half filled with water?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sheela-na-gig:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:
When I empty the thurible I normally take it outside the church and I rest the base on the ground, open the lid and then tip it upside down with my foot - I then tip it back upright (very carefully so that it doesn't tangle the chains)
I then stamp on the charcoal until it's nothing more than black dust.

---

What about an old paint can half filled with water?

---

Hmmm. Reading for comprehension...Yes, sheela-na-gig, that works quite nicely. Our sacristy has a big five inch deep enameled turkey pan that serves the same function. It doesn't need a lot of water, just enough to be able to drown the coals. I prefer more of a soupy stew consistency rather than a lumpy consomme.
 

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Posted by Sacristan (# 3548) on :
 
I just hang the thing up on a hook in the sacristy and let it completely burn up. Then come back to it a few hours/days/weeks later and clean up. It's quite cool to the touch then.
 

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Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
Sacristan, you know I respect you and your judgment, but I have one concern and one comment.

I'm disinclined to leave any fire untended, so the idea of leaving the coals in the thurible untended makes us uncomfortable. So, we don't even leave the thurible untended during the mass. Once cleaned, the top is left suspended above the vessel to show it's empty and has been cleaned.

For the incense we use, from our common special supplier, though we are burning the frankincense straight, the resin accretes in the bowl as a rock hard surface that is next to impossible to clean off, unless it is scraped out when it is soft and gooey.
 

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Posted by Sacristan (# 3548) on :
 
Well, I should have said that we have an old high fireplace in our sacristy which has been fitted to hold the thuribles. Brick and stone aren't too flammable.

As to the residue, acetone does the job for us quite well (once the fire's out and the thurible cooled off!).

E.
 

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Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
That's a nice setup, whereas ours are racked over a tile floor, but adjacent to a 'formica'-laminated plywood cupboard. And since we, therefore, must scrape after each use, doing so while hot makes the job easier and safer.

Thanks for the explanation.
 

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Posted by Sacristan (# 3548) on :
 
Sorry to double post - I didn't read carefuly enough. You were mentioning the BOWL! Those we line with aluminum foil. Just change it after each/a few uses.
 

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Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
Hmm. I've heard of and occasionally seen aluminum foil remaining in thuribles in other sacristies. Both our thuribles have copper bowls that clean up well, so we've thought to use aluminum foil.

[I'll wave off now, cuz we shouldn't make this thread into the Sacristan and TSA Show.]

[ 06. June 2006, 04:31: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
 

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Posted by angloid (# 159) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sacristan:
Sorry to double post - I didn't read carefuly enough. You were mentioning the BOWL! Those we line with aluminum foil. Just change it after each/a few uses.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by EpiscoWhat:
Well I very much am jealous at the those who are lucky enough to have the smoke at their Prayer Shack. My Prayer Shack is so opposed to smoke that when we built a new church and moved someone hid our thurible and even though Father has searched high and low for it (he wants to introduce smoke), it just cannot be found.

I've threatened to make a donation to the church in order to get some smoke going!

EW

---

There are always thuribles available on Ebay, from points as far afield as Uruguay and Shanghai.

Chinese thuribles seem to be stationary, rather like teapots – I don’t see how they get enough air. Western thuribles must be smokier. Maybe a Chinese thurible would be a compromise for churches divided over incense? Though it's hard to see how you could use it to cense something.

(One of the Chinese ones is marketed as a ‘propitious thurible,’ which possibly deserves to be the name of something – a blog, or perhaps a sailboat.)
 

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Posted by voxmystica (# 11487) on :
 
Thanks for all the responses about Rosa mystica. I think I may get the kind from Alton Abbey. The original formula stored in glass jars may have lost its scent.

Does anyone know about the adoration brand. It kind of looks like little pieces of wood...probably flowers, and it burns as soon as you put it on the coal. Is this a filler? I got a sample of the Vita mundi and the Roma. Both smell similar.
 

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Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
sheela-na-gig, thanks for the idea of cruising through ebay periodically.

As far as stationary thuribles are concerned, the Chinese settings are not nearly so weather-tight as our Western churches. I suspect there is enough ambient airflow to keep things smoking. Imagine a banked fire and gentle smoke.

Regarding propitious: it merely means "seeking for", so read "supplicatory."
 

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Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
What was this thread doing half-way down on page 6?

Over here on the girdles thread, the question of dressing left or dressing right came up.

It was alleged that were thurifer to dress right, the dangly bit of the cincture would interfere with the thurible being carried in the right hand.

Now at my nut job parish (just this morning my priest called me "odd", he really did!) waaaay back in time, as a tender young shoot of a thurifer, I was taught to carry the thurible before it was blessed in my left hand and a pot after it was blessed in my right.

Is this just an oddment of my local parish or are other parishes similarly odd?
 

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Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
That was the case in my parish too, TSA (as it was where we were told to get knotted on the left).

Of course, one wouldn't swing the thurible in one's left hand, so the girdle getting in the way wasn't an issue.

Thurible
 

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Posted by voxmystica (# 11487) on :
 
Oh, how I love this tread the best! I did just get back from St. Paul K-Street in D.C. for Solemn Evensong and Benediction. It is always wonderful there! I think they were burning Elmore Abbey "Evesham", which I think is quite nice and not so sweet. Either that or Glastonbury.

Bring out your Rose, almost Assumption-Dormition-Feast of BVM!!
 

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Posted by Ultraspike (# 268) on :
 
Yes, got my Marian blend ready with extra Rose Maroc. We're entertaining La Rez this year and I'll be high in the Rockies though.

btw, has anyone heard of censing the front door? A certain church included that in their Transfiguration procession yesterday (no it was not Little Church though).
 

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Posted by Fishngrl (# 11094) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by voxmystica:
Thanks for the responses. St. Bertolin, I knew I would get in trouble for that statement about the self-lighting charcoal! I am well aware that the stuff is evil. I don't know where you can get the real stuff in the US. I did read that SMV NYC has their own gas burners to heat the real charcoal.

...

There is not an Episcopal (Anglo-Catholic brand) that has a Solemn Mass around here. My best bet is to venture to D.C. to St. Paul's K Street for the feasts days. Which is about 2 hrs. And I usually play the organ on Sundays in Richomd. So, my experience with solid liturgy and incense is rare.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Now at my nut job parish (just this morning my priest called me "odd", he really did!) waaaay back in time, as a tender young shoot of a thurifer, I was taught to carry the thurible before it was blessed in my left hand and a pot after it was blessed in my right.

Is this just an oddment of my local parish or are other parishes similarly odd?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Myron:
We only use one incense at my church - pure high quality frankincense grown in the Dhofar region of Oman which I was able to acquire several years ago from a vendor in Oman at a reasonable price. There is no offensive additives or perfumes.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by edbakker:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Myron:
We only use one incense at my church - pure high quality frankincense grown in the Dhofar region of Oman which I was able to acquire several years ago from a vendor in Oman at a reasonable price. There is no offensive additives or perfumes.

---

Very interesting post, thank you. I have served as a thurifer for many years, but have never come across this brand of incense. Moreless used the same brand ( pricknash ) at Christ Church,Brunswick ( Melbourne ) for many years. Back in NZ, 2 years ago, I used some insence, which came from a Greek Orthodox Monastry in Greece, which was very pleasant, cannot recall the name unfortunately.


Ed....

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Ed, where've you been?!

I remember you from aaaaaages ago. Have you re-registered? I did a quick search on your old posts and your one surviving post on the Ship is a reply to me. I'm rather honoured.

Glad to see you back around.
 

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Posted by Fishngrl (# 11094) on :
 
Ultraspike, I saw your post about the Kingsford charcoal and thought that I should report that my prayer shack uses that charcoal also. We polished the brass this past Saturday and I helped carry it to the smoke room. One of my Brothers in Christ schlepped it in from some big box store out there in Jersey...and it made me think of our conversation at the last Shipmeet.

It's better for the church that I stay away from fiery things, so I don't know any details about mixtures, lighting, etc. other than what you've told me. It sure would've been nice to use your acetone trick to clean those enormous thuribles!

Sacristan was saying that his folks line the thurible with foil, and I wanted to add that on the three times per year that incense was (argued about and grudgingly) used at my former parish, we put the charcoal (those little discs) into an empty cat food container, which then went inside the thurible. It seemed to fit our little Southern Protestant holy hardware, replacements are always available - but it did not produce adequate clouds of smoke like we've got up here!

Hope y'all have a wonderful Feast of the Assumption!
 

---

Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :
 
All the special blends sound so heavenly. Here we use the dried sap of the...Wait I don't know what it is called in English, the ngali nut in Solomons and nangai nut in Vanuatu. Same fruit though. Nice smell but not very much smoke. It is burned on coconut charcoal for the most part. That's why we always have to have a boat boy/girl, to help keep the fire going.
 

---

Posted by Ed Bakker (# 2706) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Saint Bertolin:


Ed.... , where've you been?!

I remember you from aaaaaages ago. Have you re-registered? I did a quick search on your old posts and your one surviving post on the Ship is a reply to me. I'm rather honoured.

Glad to see you back around.

---

It is good to be remembered. Thank you so much.I have had a number of changes in my life, i.e. family circumstances caused us to move from Melbourne to New Zealand, we have been back four years now. Churchmanship compared to OZ became a big problem and left the Anglican Church for the Anglican Catholic Church (TAC). Still in touch with my Finnish Orthodox Friends, which keep me in supply of Orthodox music and video's. Started recently re-joining the ship. Drop us a pvt msg if you have the time.
In XC
Ed....
 

---

Posted by Jim Olson (# 11857) on :
 
Hello everyone, I've just found this message board while doing a search for thuribles online. Fascinating...I've spent over an hour reading back through the posts.

I teach worship and liturgy at Boston University School of Theology. As you can imagine, most Methodists can't figure out the reason for a good thurible, hence my online search for an inexpensive one. Of course, I know you get what you pay for, so here's the rub...

Would any of you have a thurible that is no longer used that you would be willing to donate to Boston University? It does not have to be in great condition, simply usable. I would prefer a four-chain, (I have access to a single chain one that the Catholics who use our chapel keep...). You would receive in return three things. 1) My personal gratitude. 2) The knowledge that 40 students in the Arts of Worship class each term will at least have had some experience of a thurible and 3) a nice donation letter on Chapel letterhead thanking you for your donation, suitable for tax purposes.

What say you? You can reach me directly at revjj@bu.edu.

Thanks everyone. I will keep reading with great interest.
 

---

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
I just attended mass at the cathedral in Santiago, and I saw something there I hadn't seen before (actually, I saw a lot of things I hadn't seen before, but one is relevant to this thread). During the eucharistic prayer, the thurifer knelt on the steps in front of the altar, back to the congregation, and from that position censed the altar at the elevations of the bread and cup. Is this common, unique to Santiago, what?
 

---

Posted by Nunc Dimittis (# 848) on :
 
We used to do that in my old parish, OLDC in Sydney.

I believe they also do it at CCSL, and other reputable A-C shrines in Oz.
 

---

Posted by RCD (# 11440) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
I just attended mass at the cathedral in Santiago, and I saw something there I hadn't seen before (actually, I saw a lot of things I hadn't seen before, but one is relevant to this thread). During the eucharistic prayer, the thurifer knelt on the steps in front of the altar, back to the congregation, and from that position censed the altar at the elevations of the bread and cup. Is this common, unique to Santiago, what?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
RuthW, I thought my memory had the position of the thurifer in the Tridentine Rite be as you describe, but when I just checked my Fortescue, they both (1920 & 1958) have schematic of the elevation at high mass with the thurifer next to the MC at the south side of the altar steps. This is where my crowd parks the thurifer, too. I hope someone comes by with an answer. Some of the stiffer Anglocatholic places I've been to (though not for a looong time) put the thurifer in the midst on the pavement.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nunc_Dimittis:
I will check Ritual Notes on this RC, but what I learnt, and what I have observed re thurible and the Sanctus was:

The bell is rung three times. At each ring, the thurifer swings the thurible thrice in the manner of censing someone/thing. (Assuming he/she is kneeling before the Altar...) The Thurifer then continues to swing the thurible in small rapid arcs side to side until the Agnus Dei, repeating the censing figure at the elevation of both elements.

I don't know if this is correct.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jim Olson:
Hello everyone, I've just found this message board while doing a search for thuribles online. Fascinating...I've spent over an hour reading back through the posts.

I teach worship and liturgy at Boston University School of Theology. As you can imagine, most Methodists can't figure out the reason for a good thurible, hence my online search for an inexpensive one. Of course, I know you get what you pay for, so here's the rub...

Would any of you have a thurible that is no longer used that you would be willing to donate to Boston University? It does not have to be in great condition, simply usable. I would prefer a four-chain, (I have access to a single chain one that the Catholics who use our chapel keep...). You would receive in return three things. 1) My personal gratitude. 2) The knowledge that 40 students in the Arts of Worship class each term will at least have had some experience of a thurible and 3) a nice donation letter on Chapel letterhead thanking you for your donation, suitable for tax purposes.

What say you? You can reach me directly at revjj@bu.edu.

Thanks everyone. I will keep reading with great interest.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mr. Rob:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nunc_Dimittis:
I will check Ritual Notes on this RC, but what I learnt, and what I have observed re thurible and the Sanctus was:

The bell is rung three times. At each ring, the thurifer swings the thurible thrice in the manner of censing someone/thing. (Assuming he/she is kneeling before the Altar...) The Thurifer then continues to swing the thurible in small rapid arcs side to side until the Agnus Dei, repeating the censing figure at the elevation of both elements.

I don't know if this is correct.

---

Well to be blunt, it's not correct. LOL!

The thurible is gently swung from side to side at the Sanctus (holies). It is swung the same way during the reading of the Holy Gospel. After the the the words of institution or epiclesis, the thurifer may exit. He may also exit after the canon at the beginning of the Lord's Prayer. Anything longer smokes up the sanctuary or altar area too much.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
I'm disinclined to leave any fire untended, so the idea of leaving the coals in the thurible untended makes us uncomfortable. So, we don't [ever] leave the thurible untended during the mass.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spiffy da WonderSheep:

I'm more familiar with a wireless miked or large-lunged deacon wandering down the center aisle and doing the censing stuff there, but I am yet young.

[Preview post! Preview post! Preview post!] [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Time for me to trawl through this whole thread seeking the magic answers as we try to create nay-sayer-friendly-scented smoke for Christmas. Quick summary AIUI is:

1. Clean the thurible.

2. Use real charcoal, not self-lighting; and get to white-hot temperature. (Prerequisite: acquire brazier and tongs.)

3. Use the right brand of incense (this is the one I need to trawl most totting up which brand is most bestly recommended here).

Anything else I've missed for the quick summary?

---

For number 3, save yourself time and use frankincense. I know that the true connisseurs (sp) will argue with me but it's both easily found and seasonally appropriate.

The only time I know of that we switched to something else brought complaints from even the incense lovers!

Charlotte
 

---

Posted by Joan Rasch (# 49) on :
 
I believe 'self-lighting' charcoal has a bit of gunpowder on the surface. When I have used it, the procedure was to get it going over an ordinary candle flame. I never noticed any fumes from it myself, but in any case, if the coals are started well ahead of the time they are needed, any possible fume-producing part will have burned off.

Our strategy to keep the thurible clean was to line it with a bit of clean aluminum foil each time it was used.

cheers - Joan
 

---

Posted by Choirboy (# 9659) on :
 
The gunpowder/self lighting stuff does indeed smell fairly acrid when you light the thing up. That should pass quickly - unless the thurifer is making the mistake that self-lighting means he/she doesn't need to spend time before mass getting the thing good and hot.
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
I recently bought a small pack of Prinknash incense to use in my little brass burner. The self-lighting charcoal provided gave off quite a bit of rather acrid smoke when ignited, but this quickly dissipated and gave way to the sweet, sweet smell of the incense itself..........

Ian J.
 

---

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :
 
I don't know what was going on in the Cathedral's thurible this evening, but the smell was predominantly of charcoal smoke... The smell of incense would have been preferable!
 

---

Posted by Laurence (# 9135) on :
 
With regard to Protestant coughs, a little while ago I had the joy of getting married! Thus my family composed of Welsh Presbyterians and the bride's semi-atheistic Cornish tribe gathered together in a very spangly Oxford chapel. This was liberally filled with incense. And there was not a cough to be heard, despite the use of quick-lighting charcoal! I'm convinced there were four factors in this:

Firstly, the inside of the thurible was given the cleaning of its life beforehand. It was a good, big, shiny thurible, borrowed from a high AngloCarthlick establishment, not the mean little College thurible!

Secondly, the chapel was sufficiently high (in terms of altitude, tho' the theology was pretty good too...) that there was no stale smoke lingering; it came out of the thurible and went straight up.

Thirdly, we used pure frankincense with a sprinkling of rose scent- no potions or strange mixtures for us.

Fourthly, I imagine the Protestants in the congregation were stunned into silence by the roaring of the bombardes on the organ anyway!

But a clean thurible, an airy church and good pure incense definitely go a long way to quelling the Calvinist consumptives in the congo.

L.

PS There are some quite fun photos, too, if anyone wants to see a good tat-laden procession. It was all very Sarum- lots of copes and lovely winged English surplices. I was sorely tempted to Mystery Worship it, but had other things on my mind at the time...

[ 30. November 2006, 22:11: Message edited by: Laurence ]
 

---

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
Autenrieth Road, check with Ultraspike (does he still post here any more?) for a lead on suppliers. You'll be glad you did.

MT, I fear you may be terminally nasally challenged. To clear yourself of this charge, should you so choose, can you tell us what brand of quick lights your crowd uses? Joan Rasch's explanation is also the one I use.

Our lot uses a hobbyist's butane torch with tongs for lighting the charcoals, with a candle nearby for quick relighting when the gunpowder ignites and blows out the torch.

Before we added boatbearing ankle-biters to our rota, we would keep the sacristy door shut when lighting a new pot after dumping it after the gospel. Now it seems prudent to leave the view of the thurifer and the thurifer's seven-year-old charge in the sacristy unobstructed, during these depressingly hysteria-freighted times.

Perhaps this question will finally expose me as not knowing my anatomy from a rabbit hole, but who says that a thurible has to be clean to be sweet smelling, and, if so, why exactly is this the case?

Laurence: post the pics! Post the Pics! [please?]
 

---

Posted by Fishngrl (# 11094) on :
 
AR, over here at SMV, we use a major well-known barbeque type charcoal in the thuribles. They are cleaned out on a pretty regular basis and polished using Brasso (our task this Saturday).

For your information, A Friend Who Is Expert highly recommends using acetone to get a thurible really super clean. This same friend makes her own incense, on account of she's that cool. But as The Silent Acolyte suggested, I don't think the cleanliness of the thurible affects coughing, it seems to do more with how hot the charcoal is.

Regarding types of incense, ours is homemade in the basement (and sold in the gift shop). (You can go to the photo gallery on our web page to see how it's done.) I think there is also a brand called Resurrection that a former parish used to use on occasion.

Have a great time with it - thank you for smoking!
 

---

Posted by Pearl B4 Swine (# 11451) on :
 
thank you for smoking!

 

---

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
And this one, too.

Orthodox thurifer-deacons are apparently able to incense, walk backward, and carry candlesticks at the same time for great prelates, perhaps there should be less fussing about Anglican thurifers who do the same for the Most Blessed Sacrament.

---

I know this is a little obsessive, but here is another shot of the deacon-thurifers. I'll cease and desist now or start a new thread if more pics come to me that absolutely must be seen.
 

---

Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
Thanks for the comments.

A check of the sacristy reveals Three Kings quick-lights. Do these burn hot enough? We only do incense during the procession in, and then at the offertory. I.e. don't need something that can last for the entire Eucharistic Prayer or something.

If we use a separate brazier to get a heap of coals going in, and then transfer some to the thurible, do we need to station someone to stay with the brazier? I'm nervous about leaving fire unattended. We haven't got adequate ventilation in the sacristy to leave carbon-monoxide producing coals burning for too long, so I guess we'd have to set it up outside.

We have Almy Revelation (or is it Resurrection? rats, I've forgotten) in a can. Also a baggie labelled Frankincense, but I've forgotten what vendor it said (if it did). I'm inclined to try the Frankincense instead of the pre-made stuff, on the grounds of it being least likely to have random irritating things in it, and I want the highest probability of success in pleasing those who have had problems with our smoke in the past.

Plus two tiny little packs marked Frankincense and Myrrh, with an instruction sheet for various ways of releasing the scent including by warming between the hands. No little packet marked Gold though; maybe I can lend my gold locket for an authentic three kings procession at epiphany.

Early in the thread people had said the cleaning is important because the leftover resins in the thurible produce bad smells the next time. I don't know if it also produces coughing, but I'm inclined to try all the stops simultaneously.

[ 01. December 2006, 15:33: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
 

---

Posted by Amazing Grace (# 95) on :
 
AR - if there is a free-standing coat hanger somewhere in the church, get it out.

Also, if you don't have a gas match (available in any hardware store and larger groceries with the barbeque or fireplace supplies), get one. It's a useful thing to have in the sacristry anyways .

Charlotte
 

---

Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
And what are these implements for?

By the freestanding coat hanger, I presume you mean a coatrack? We have many freestanding coat hangers, although more frequently they are free-lying at the bottom of the closets . But what is this freestanding coatrack for?

By a gas match, do you mean one of those sort of long things that you click and a flame spouts out of it? And why would it be useful in the sacristy apart from lighting coals?

I gather that it's better to light the coals by holding it with tongs over a flame -- rather than our current procedure, which is to put them in the thurible and then poke at them from the top or sides with the same tiny matches we use to light the torches. Yes?
 

---

Posted by MouseThief (# 953) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
By a gas match, do you mean one of those sort of long things that you click and a flame spouts out of it? And why would it be useful in the sacristy apart from lighting coals?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by MouseThief:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
By a gas match, do you mean one of those sort of long things that you click and a flame spouts out of it? And why would it be useful in the sacristy apart from lighting coals?

---

Lighting candles and lamps?

---

Correct and correct.

I often use it for the sanctuary candles (which are lit when nobody else is around ) and to light the wick on the ceremonial brass candle lighters/snuffers because someone bought the el-cheapoest matches and I dislike using them.

I had pilotless gas stoves previously so relied on them at home!

Charlotte

[ 01. December 2006, 16:19: Message edited by: Amazing Grace ]
 

---

Posted by Amazing Grace (# 95) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
And what are these implements for?

By the freestanding coat hanger, I presume you mean a coatrack? We have many freestanding coat hangers, although more frequently they are free-lying at the bottom of the closets . But what is this freestanding coatrack for?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
By the freestanding coat hanger, I presume you mean a coatrack?...But what is this freestanding coatrack for?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
I gather that it's better to light the coals by holding it with tongs over a flame -- rather than our current procedure, which is to put them in the thurible and then poke at them from the top or sides with the same tiny matches we use to light the torches. Yes?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Tongs are okay, but there is a drawback. The advantage is that you can view the entire coal as you flow the flame (from the torch) over its surface, thereby visually confirming that you have ignited all the accelerant.

---

-- which also points out a possible problem with the self-light charcoal that I hadn't thought of. With more stale coals, or if you don't put enough effort in to getting it going properly, there may still be unburned accelerant on the coals when mass starts. Eventually as the thing heats up during mass, it will spark and light, but discharge the somewhat acrid accelerant odor.

Could someone recommend brands or suppliers of non-self lighting charcoal for thuribles? I've only seen the self-lighting varieties out here.
 

---

Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
Finished reading all 109 (!!!!) pages (printed) of this thread.

Next task: cleaning of thurible, using some assortment of tools recommended by all and sundry here: rubber gloves, goggles, toothbrush, plastic scourer, ventilated area, container for putting cleaner dregs in so as not to put them down a drain or on the ground, and cleaner -- variously acetone, mineral turpentine, ethanol, paint stripper, wd-40, jellied methylene chloride, olive oil w/ elbow grease, and/or boiling water.

All this for the once-a-year appearance of the thurible. .
 

---

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
AR, forget the turpentine, boiling water, mineral whatever, and go directly to the jellied paint stripper. Gloves are a prudent precaution.

It is a solid brass thurible, though, isn't it?

Maybe you should ignore my first paragraph if your forebears invested in some plated affair.

Please tell us how it goes, though!
 

---

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
These things are properly called Dumb Acolytes or Silent Acolytes.

---

Our most usual thurifer is a gentleman who suffers from any number of mental difficulties, and who absolutely refuses to be instructed in any degree of how to thurify. But, if he isn't allowed to thurifer, he just elopes to a different church, so it appears that we are stuck with him

His latest trick is to use the curtain rail above the door to the sacristy - which once had a drape suspended from it, but no longer - as a silent acolyte, during the EP. It looks really rather weird...

Anyway, I'm off to Hispaniola for a week.

See all soon, and please for me to ensure I don't catch malaria or get kidnapped by pirates!

Peter
 

---

Posted by scopatore segreto (# 11848) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
And this one, too.

Orthodox thurifer-deacons are apparently able to incense, walk backward, and carry candlesticks at the same time for great prelates, perhaps there should be less fussing about Anglican thurifers who do the same for the Most Blessed Sacrament.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
AR, forget the turpentine, boiling water, mineral whatever, and go directly to the jellied paint stripper. Gloves are a prudent precaution.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
AR, forget the turpentine, boiling water, mineral whatever, and go directly to the jellied paint stripper. Gloves are a prudent precaution.

It is a solid brass thurible, though, isn't it?

Maybe you should ignore my first paragraph if your forebears invested in some plated affair.

Please tell us how it goes, though!

---

I don't know if it's solid or not. It seems rather too lightweight to be solid, but who knows.

It's now clean. Tools: acetone, goggles, gloves, rags, turkey roasting pan, two jars, an outside deck, and one teaspoon.

I'll wait till I'm on the brass-polishing rota later this month to polish it; there are different procedures for plain brass vs. lacquered brass (or lacquered brass plate), and I don't know how to tell which is which yet.
 

---

Posted by pater ursus (# 2512) on :
 
Hi Folks.

I am off to bed now, but just stopped by and saw this thread.......I found the following MANUAL on the web. Not sure it is universally correct, but hey!! its fun to read.

And NEVER forget the "chink", where else do you get the true "smells and bells" from?


Peace and Love
 

---

Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
Whether or not we're going to have an incense is up and down like a hot potato (to mix metaphors) at the moment. On the chance that we have it, a suggestion that has been made is that only one coal be used instead of three.

Is this likely to be of any use, in reducing the number of irritations caused?

Our thurible is of a size that three of the round Three Kings brickets nicely cover the floor (for lack of a better word) and tuck up a bit on the sides.

AFAICT we are going for a token amount of scent, and no attachment to visible smoke necessarily.
 

---

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
I am thurifering at Mass this Sunday, and want to make use of what I take to be a stock of resin which I found at the back of the vestry cupboard in a clear unmarked plastic bag (yes, I know this could go v. badly wrong, but I'm not one to let I dare not wait upon I want like the poor cat i'th'adage, so here goes)...

What would be a good procedure? Just grind it up in a pestle and mix with the usual stuff?
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Hmm. Have a little practice with it first! It may be absolutely ghastly........

Ian J.
 

---

Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Is this likely to be of any use, in reducing the number of irritations caused?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by pater ursus:
And NEVER forget the "chink", where else do you get the true "smells and bells" from?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
(e.g. is a single coal more liable to go cold, and does a cold coal (after having been hot) tend to produce more obnoxious stuff as opposed to just nothing; or other possibly unforeseen results?)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
I am thurifering at Mass this Sunday, and want to make use of what I take to be a stock of resin which I found at the back of the vestry cupboard in a clear unmarked plastic bag (yes, I know this could go v. badly wrong, but I'm not one to let I dare not wait upon I want like the poor cat i'th'adage, so here goes)...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
I am thurifering at Mass this Sunday, and want to make use of what I take to be a stock of resin which I found at the back of the vestry cupboard in a clear unmarked plastic bag (yes, I know this could go v. badly wrong, but I'm not one to let I dare not wait upon I want like the poor cat i'th'adage, so here goes)...

What would be a good procedure? Just grind it up in a pestle and mix with the usual stuff?

---

Judicious investigation first, would be my advice - particularly if you want to avoid judicial investigation!!! It might just be the curate's secret stash
 

---

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
I have visions of the entire Midnight Mass congregation doing a Bishop of Southwark on the way home.
 

---

Posted by Comper's Child (# 10580) on :
 
Simon Jenkins' book " England's Thousand Best Churches" remarks about St Cuthbert's Philbeach Gardens' reredos as having a "theme of incense".

Never enough, never enough.
 

---

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:
I have visions of the entire Midnight Mass congregation doing a Bishop of Southwark on the way home.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:
...doing a Bishop of Southwark on the way home.

---

What's a "Bishop of Southwark"?
 

---

Posted by scopatore segreto (# 11848) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin L:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:
...doing a Bishop of Southwark on the way home.

---

What's a "Bishop of Southwark"?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by scopatore segreto:
My fellow American, I too came late to this story, but it’s priceless: seems Matey got drunk as a Lord on port (how appropriate) and was found in Crucifix Lane! See the “It’s What I Do” thread in Purg.

---

Thanks, ss! Here I was thinking he was a new Jensenite or something.
 

---

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin L:

quote:

---

Originally posted by scopatore segreto:
My fellow American, I too came late to this story, but it’s priceless: seems Matey got drunk as a Lord on port (how appropriate) and was found in Crucifix Lane! See the “It’s What I Do” thread in Purg.

---

Thanks, ss! Here I was thinking he was a new Jensenite or something.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:
No, I think some people would like to believe that the Jensenites spiked his drink (though what they would be doing at the Irish Embassy....?) Call for Daniel 'James Bond' Craig.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by scopatore segreto:
Surely the Irish Embassy is in league with the Jesuits -- or would it be the Opus Dei these days?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Whatever all that means.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin L:
By the way, that has got to be the first time someone has said, "I had a dream about Opus Dei early this morning"!

---

As for dreaming about thigh cilices, that sort of thing would have cost you quite a few Paters and Aves in my day!
 

---

Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
You perverts should get your own thread.
 

---

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
I dunno... I make a perfectly innocent enquiry, and suddenly the thread is collapsing about us!

I blame the Rigours of the Season.
 

---

Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
Indeed. Can we get back to incense and thuribles, please? This is supposed to be a good reference thread that we can stash in Limbo some day.
 

---

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
Well, the reader will doubtless be delighted to know* that it all went off extremely well this morning. I ground the resin up in a pestle, mixed it in with just a touch of the usual Prinknash, and got burning...

By the Consecrations, the altar was barely visible for smoke, and one lady who'd been at home arranging flowers during the Mass told me that she could smell it from the far side of the alley outside. All most satisfactory really!

* although there may be others who will be disappointed that I didn't come a cropper. Schadenfreude and all that.
 

---

Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :
 
Rosa Mystica is on the menu here for Midnight Mass tonight.

Well, actually, a 1:1 blend with Basilica to ensure the most sublime sublimation (1). And only the MC and I know.


Q.

Pedants' Footnote:
(1) - sublimation is the transition from the solid to the gas phase with no intermediate liquid stage. Technically, we sublime incense, not burn it. Isn't that wonderful?
 

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Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
Indeed it is. I will probably end up mentioning it in the sacristy. More than once or twice. In fact, probably so often (along with "swing that thing, we want lots of smoke!") which will make me even more obnoxious about incense than I already am.
 

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Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :
 

quote:

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Previously posted by me:
Rosa Mystica is on the menu here for Midnight Mass tonight.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Don't know if this has been covered in these eleven pages, but anybody have any advice for a boatpersonless service?

Just this very morning we had a funeral for a revered member of the Mothers' Union.

No boat boy or girl was available, so we had to have the thurifer do it himself. Very confusing! But I understand that overseas most people don't use a boad (person).

How in God's name is that possible, I'd really like to know how you can keep the fire going outside and slip back and forth in and out with the thurible, even how does a boatless thurifer open the darn thing as that takes two hands, if he or she is holding the boat.

Please enlighten me. This morning we were juggling everthing. I pray it wasn't unseemly, I meaning handing the boat to the crucifer of all people, for a second of course, then fill the thurible, blessing. I still held it while thurifer closed, and then gave it back.

Very curious indeed.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:
About the only reason to wear a girdle with a cassock-alb: the thurifer slips the boat between the girdle and his/her tum. I've only seen it done by reasonably slim people, so I imagine it might not always be so easy.

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quote:

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I just heard that there is a figure eight way of swinging the thurible. I think I heard it called the "Queen Mary." Is that right? Do you know?

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Can someone lighten her darkness?

Thank you!

Ross
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
I've never heard it called a Queen Mary. I've heard one or two thurifers called ... oh never mind.

Figures-of-eight are, of course, difficult, dangerous, often egotistical on the part of the thurifer ...

... and, of course, totally fabulous! (In moderation.)
 

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Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Rossweisse:
A host has closed my thread that asked a thurible question, and booted me here; apparently we are to look to see if topics exist even unto Page 5. Whatever.

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quote:

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Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:

quote:

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Originally posted by Rossweisse:
A host has closed my thread that asked a thurible question, and booted me here; apparently we are to look to see if topics exist even unto Page 5. Whatever.

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Nah, just to guess that it wouldn't be MW* if there wasn't a thread on smoke available at all times!

As to the double 360, I though it was called a Queen Anne - or am I getting confoosed with lace again?

And why should it be named after any Queen at all?

*except that it isn't, of course

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We called it the Queen Anne Salute - what a hoot - Why on earth Queen Anne should be so honored is beyond reason!
 

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Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
The Church Times St. Gargoyles cartoon is wonderful this week! Their Caption Competition* is relevant to this thread too.

*Did they still this idea from the Ship???
 

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Posted by DitzySpike (# 1540) on :
 
Does anyone know if it is possible to fire up charcoals using a toaster oven? Hope this doesn't turn up to be a silly question; trying to find an easy way to light up in a church.
 

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Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Does anyone know if it is possible to fire up charcoals using a toaster oven? Hope this doesn't turn up to be a silly question; trying to find an easy way to light up in a church.

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I'm inclined to think that this might be a very bad idea... if you're using the quick-light stuff, it has bits of gunpowder on the outside and I can easily imagine such a scheme being quite a fire-hazard.
 

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Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
Hmmm. Found this thread down on page three.

quote:

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DitzySpike clearly never went through the child-pyromaniac phase:
Does anyone know if it is possible to fire up charcoals using a toaster oven? Hope this doesn't turn up to be a silly question; trying to find an easy way to light up in a church.

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quote:

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Originally posted by DitzySpike:
Does anyone know if it is possible to fire up charcoals using a toaster oven? Hope this doesn't turn up to be a silly question; trying to find an easy way to light up in a church.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Our church has a niche in the sacristy where the coals are prepared with a gas burner, something like a wall-mounted blowtorch...

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Scott, how is the gas delivered to the burner, from a bottle, from the piped-in-from-the-street natural gas supply?

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The latter.
 

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Posted by Amazing Grace (# 95) on :
 
*bump* as we seem to be talking about incense and thuribles on the Paschal Candle thread. I have a story as well but don't want to derail that thread further .
 

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Posted by Amazing Grace (# 95) on :
 
*bump* as we seem to be talking about incense and thuribles on the Paschal Candle thread. I have a story as well but don't want to derail that thread further .
 

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Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 
So, we switched from frankincense to myrrh on Ash Wednesday. The myrrh is a sparkly god and, unlike the frankincense, burns with almost no residual goo—more of a powdery residue.
 

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Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
Are you going to share your story, Amazing Grace?
 

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Posted by Amazing Grace (# 95) on :
 
here's the story ...

We have a new (to us; he was actually another diocese's suffragan) bishop. We are still getting used to this concept in a lot of ways because the previous incumbent served over 25 years.

He was educated at the Virginia seminary, which I gather isn't much of a place to learn high(er) church ceremonial, and served in Alabama, which I guess tends to be pretty low. We tend towards the higher side of middle in this diocese and use the smoking handbag whenever we can get away with it at this parish.

One of our assisting clergy at St. Spike's died recently after a long full life. As is meet and proper, the Bishop was celebrant at the solemn Requiem.

He wielded the thurible quite competently. I was chatting with the lay thurifer and the young priest who was chaplain (who knows his own way around a thurible) at the reception. Fr M said that the head verger at the Cathedral had taken the Bishop asides and said, "Marc, let me show you how to do this." The lessons apparently took.

Charlotte
 

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Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
Oh my! . Just goes to show that even if only the priest can cense certain things, it's still the acolytes & vergers who know all about how to do it.
 

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Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
Oh my! . Just goes to show that even if only the priest can cense certain things, it's still the acolytes & vergers who know all about how to do it.

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Thankfully you had a verger who was confident enough to do this. In the Lutheran world, pastors are almost invariably taught to think they are the only ones who know anything church-related. If somebody had tried this with one of our bishops, he/she would have just rolled his/her eyes and did whatever he/she wanted anyway, because of his/her 'expertise.'

We have pastors trying to tell organists about proper registration when they have never so much as touched an organ in their entire life, and trying to tell people about liturgical customs and practices when they themselves have never darkened the door of one liturgical class and clearly have no interest in it at all.

[/Lutherant, takes deep breath]
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
ISTM that it is greatly to the Bishop's credit that he not only agreed to wield the thurible but was also willing to be taught.

It may look easy, but I bet it isn't!

Ian J.
 

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Posted by Autenrieth Road (# 10509) on :
 
Wielding thuribles or teaching bishops?
 

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Posted by Amazing Grace (# 95) on :
 
Yes, we think we have a good shepherd, in many ways.

I heard that +Marc had embarrassed the head verger somewhat during the transition period when he and his wife were living in the guest flat at the Cathedral while arrangements were made to re-house the previous incumbent.

The verger (who lives at the Cathedral) had put some laundry in the dryer and come back to find his underwear neatly folded by you-know-who.

So I guess he figured that +Marc wouldn't bite his head off for suggesting that he needed thurible lessons.

Charlotte
 

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Posted by Scott Knitter (# 6278) on :
 
Things I learned yesterday in my first experience with the thurible paraphernalia (we used incense in a brazier at Evensong):

1. The gas burner in the sacristy is lighted with a match; it doesn't pop on from the pilot light like the cooker at home. The longer you wait, the more gas you're wasting.

2. The coals are self-lighting and don't need five solid minutes in the gas flame to get going, no matter what one of the thurifers seems to do on Sundays. In fact, they can be lighted with a match while they sit on the unlighted gas burner.

3. At cleanup time, assume everything is either hot or dirty or both; use tongs to handle everything.

Learning the hard way; fortunately, mostly without witnesses...
 

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Posted by Perry the Pirate (# 12362) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Scott Knitter:

3. At cleanup time, assume everything is either hot or dirty or both; use tongs to handle everything.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Small censers can indeed be gotten from Orthodox bookstores.

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quote:

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Originally posted by churchgeek:
A question to those to whom it applies:

How do you clean your thurible?

Ours is silver, and it never gets cleaned. I've been trying to clean it whenever I can since last summer, but it's always a day-long task, it seems.

When I need to get burnt-on crud off my pans at home, I boil water in them. Is it safe to boil a silver thurible (as opposed to just soaking it in hot tap water)?

I think what I'm looking for is a way to soften all the creosote (is that the right word?) so it can be safely scrubbed off without scratching the silver. Most of the crud is inside the thurible, of course, but some gets on the outside as well.

Any ideas would be appreciated! But please say what kind of metal yours is, since I assume some cleaning methods would be harmful to some metals even if safe on others.

Thanks!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
We had a rather entertaining thread about this some time ago where somebody boiled it for hours and kept reporting back to let us know about the progress made. I have used ethanol and a toothbrush in the past.

The key, once it has been cleaned, is to give it a good clean after every use. Also, do not leave it closed while the charcoal dies inside it. Rather, remove the charcoal and place it in a sealable tin, and stifle it. Then dispose of it on clean ground. and clean your thurible.

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quote:

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Originally posted by churchgeek:

quote:

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Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:
We had a rather entertaining thread about this some time ago where somebody boiled it for hours and kept reporting back to let us know about the progress made. I have used ethanol and a toothbrush in the past.

The key, once it has been cleaned, is to give it a good clean after every use. Also, do not leave it closed while the charcoal dies inside it. Rather, remove the charcoal and place it in a sealable tin, and stifle it. Then dispose of it on clean ground. and clean your thurible.

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What did the experiment conclude? Was any progress made?

I'd love to clean the thurible after every use, but I can't. I usually only am at the cathedral on Saturdays and Sundays, and am usually quite busy both days. I'm also not a thurifer, so I can't do much about how they handle the thurible, although I believe the practice is to leave the thurible open outdoors while the charcoal cools, and then dispose of the charcoal in the dirt. Although they might actually just put the hot charcoal into the soil, too.

Here's a dumb question: Is the gunk mostly from the charcoal, the incense, or both?

[ETA:]
Is ethanol safe for silver? Does it seem to help?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Saint Bertelin:

quote:

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Originally posted by churchgeek:
What did the experiment conclude? Was any progress made?

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This was a thurible that hadn't been cleaned in years and so had a thick layer of gunk. If memory serves correctly some good headway was made.

quote:

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I'd love to clean the thurible after every use, but I can't. I usually only am at the cathedral on Saturdays and Sundays, and am usually quite busy both days. I'm also not a thurifer, so I can't do much about how they handle the thurible...

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That's a pity. It's good when somebody like you takes the initiative to do this because, IME, so many people are in a rush to dash off and things just don't get done.

quote:

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Here's a dumb question: Is the gunk mostly from the charcoal, the incense, or both?

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Not dumb at all. I think it's predominantly incense resin.

quote:

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Is ethanol safe for silver? Does it seem to help?

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It worked a treat on our brass thurible. I used it outside, of course. As for whether it's safe for silver, I'm not sure. My then parish priest's first degree was in metallurgy and it was he who suggested (and supplied) it but I couldn alwayws ask for you.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Comper's Child:
As I recollect St Percy suggests "sweet-oil" which is I think a term for olive oil. I've tried it and found it useless with any build-up of resins. We use "mineral spirits" allowing the thurible to soak for a half hour or so. I would, however carefully clean off any residue from the spirits as they might spoil the silver if left on for a long time. If it's cleaned after each use (and this case olive oil can work) there will be far less maintenance.

nb. If the thurible is large it can be submerged one side or one half at a time in a container of spirits.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Don't take my advice if it's bad, but in a previous parish I used EZ-Off oven cleaner, the kind that doesn't require heating up the oven, on the non-silver-plated inside surfaces only. I put the thurible with this stuff on it in the oven overnight purely to contain the fumes somewhat. It was a low-fume lemon-scented formula.

The thurible came out spectacularly clean (once it was wiped with a damp cloth, easily removing the liquified crud).

Again, this is something that worked, but if you ask a sacristan or parish priest about doing this and s/he says not to, don't do it. I did it because it needed doing and nobody knew nor cared about the thurible where I was, other than that it would be used at a particular service and needed to be as non-irritating as possible. Make sure to get all the EZ-Off out of it if you do this.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Comper's Child:

quote:

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Originally posted by Scott Knitter:
Don't take my advice if it's bad, but in a previous parish I used EZ-Off oven cleaner,

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Don't use this if the silver is plated on... otherwise it's okay, but again watch out for residue and clean it thoroughly after the "cleansing".

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[ 11. June 2007, 19:23: Message edited by: Autenrieth Road ]
 

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Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :
 
Thanks, Autenrieth Road, for moving the relevant posts from the "Cleaning Thuribles" thread - I stupidly didn't search to see if there already was a thread.

Thanks to everyone for their good advice.

Meanwhile, I had an unexpected chance to speak with our diocese's thurible guru, and she suggested ethanol, and said it won't harm silver. She said to use ethanol, and follow it with hot water & detergent (ie, dish soap). I'll give that a try.
 

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Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 
I've been meaning to raise this question as our thurible is in a dreadful state. I remember from reading the thread in the past acetone being suggested but we've been unable to get hold of any. We'll have to try ethanol I think.

Carys
 

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Posted by TonyK (# 35) on :
 
I've never been quite sure what 'ethanol' is, but found that turpentine (but not turps. subsitute - i.e.white spirit) did a good job on a brass thurible that we have on extended loan.

I left it to soak for a couple of hours, then found that I could clean it with a plastic scourer, finishing off with hot water and 'washing-up liquid' to remove the oily residue. Only one particularly difficult area required a repeat procedure!
 

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Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
I never thought of this before I heard of someone having an actual silver thurible (sterling or otherwise), but our priest has warned us about being careful when cleaning chalices about not stressing any joints between dissimilar metals which might have a mechanical connection.

(E.g. In these days when solid gold is simply way too pricey, a chalice might be made up of separate sterling and silver-gilt (gilded silver) pieces held together by an internal screw -- too vigorous washing could lead to either water getting into places it doesn't belong or placing strain on the mechanical connection and some combination of problems.)

Even with simpler metals, one needs to ask and know about what the thurible is made of and how it might react to various cleaning methods.

If in doubt, I would suggest finding a local jeweler or metalsmith and asking/paying for basic advice about the metals, how they are joined, and the best way to take care of it.
 

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Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by TonyK:
I've never been quite sure what 'ethanol' is, but found that turpentine (but not turps. subsitute - i.e.white spirit) did a good job on a brass thurible that we have on extended loan.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TonyK:
I've never been quite sure what 'ethanol' is, but found that turpentine (but not turps. subsitute - i.e.white spirit) did a good job on a brass thurible that we have on extended loan.

I left it to soak for a couple of hours, then found that I could clean it with a plastic scourer, finishing off with hot water and 'washing-up liquid' to remove the oily residue. Only one particularly difficult area required a repeat procedure!

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