Thread: Purgatory: "SPCK" bookshops Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :
 
There was a thread about this last year, but I get "You have requested a thread that does not exist" when I click on the link that 'Search' produces, and I can't find it in Oblivion.

Basically it appears that SPCK may have withdrawn permission for St Stephen the Great to use the SPCK name for the shops, Dave Walker has the story here, and there is more background from Ruth Gledhill's blog and the responses posted.

It looks to me as though from a staff POV it has all gone horribly wrong and I am deeply grieved by this for our local SPCK manager who is a pearl beyond price.

What do we do as customers. I don't feel very happy at my purchases supporting the owners of the shops who appear to have behaved very heavy handedly, but if I don't support them then there is the loss of a valuable resource and the loss of the jobs that will go if the shops fail. For me at least part of the dilemma is removed by having for many of my purchases a much more local Christian book shop which also needs my support.

[ 15. June 2016, 18:44: Message edited by: Belisarius ]
 

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Posted by J Whitgift (# 1981) on :
 
We're spoilt here in London having at least 4 top quality Christian bookshops:

- Mowbrays (inside Hatchards)
- Church House Book Shop, Westminster
- SPCK, Westminster
- St. Paul's bookshop, Westminster Cathedral.

However, this is going to be a blow for smaller towns/cities where it's the only descent academic Christian retailer. (I'm discounting Wesley Owen under that heading because they tend not to sell academic books or Catholic/Orthodox material.)

Having just looked at the SPCK online website St. Stephen the Great Charitable Trust are certainly playing up their Orthodox links. In particular note that there's now a 'top 10 Orthodox books' at the top right-hand side of the page and various links to St Stephen's.

Whilst I prefer Church House bookshop to the SPCK one, I like their secondhand books section and their eclectic mix of titles. It will be a huge blow if the Orthodox link turns the bookshops into ones which simply sell Orthodox material. It will leave Anglicans and other denominations high and dry in terms of bookselling resources. Whether this will actually happen remains to be seen, but it can't help if SPCK remove their sponsorship of the shops.
 

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Posted by Matrix (# 3452) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by J Whitgift:
We're spoilt here in London having at least 4 top quality Christian bookshops:

- Mowbrays (inside Hatchards)
- Church House Book Shop, Westminster
- SPCK, Westminster
- St. Paul's bookshop, Westminster Cathedral.

However, this is going to be a blow for smaller towns/cities where it's the only descent academic Christian retailer. (I'm discounting Wesley Owen under that heading because they tend not to sell academic books or Catholic/Orthodox material.)

Having just looked at the SPCK online website St. Stephen the Great Charitable Trust are certainly playing up their Orthodox links. In particular note that there's now a 'top 10 Orthodox books' at the top right-hand side of the page and various links to St Stephen's.

Whilst I prefer Church House bookshop to the SPCK one, I like their secondhand books section and their eclectic mix of titles. It will be a huge blow if the Orthodox link turns the bookshops into ones which simply sell Orthodox material. It will leave Anglicans and other denominations high and dry in terms of bookselling resources. Whether this will actually happen remains to be seen, but it can't help if SPCK remove their sponsorship of the shops.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Matrix:
... The idea that anglicans wpould be left high and dry is false, the full range of devotional resources are there too. As are a goodly number of Catholic titles ...

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Not in my experience they're not, or if they are they're well hidden. They don't even buy in the Church Times or the Tablet, but they do stock the Church of England Newspaper.

quote:

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It seems a bit easy to have a pop at W.O. becuase they are big, and do stock popular titles and stacks of trashy paperbacks that will be forgotten as almost as soon as they are put down. But the realities of the economics of the UK Christian bookshop scene is that they need to sell the large amounts of cheesy trash in order to sustain a ministry to the more thoughtful reader.

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Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
The SSG appears to have already decreed that the secondhand trade will end, which (being a tightwad) kills my main motivation for going in there.

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That's appalling! I bought the Parker Society 3 volume set of 'the Works of John Whitgift' for £60 a few years ago. I can't imagine that I'd find another set for love or money.

* Okay, I appreciate that may be slightly over stated, but only slightly.
 

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Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by J Whitgift:

quote:

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Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
The SSG appears to have already decreed that the secondhand trade will end, which (being a tightwad) kills my main motivation for going in there.

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That's appalling! I bought the Parker Society 3 volume set of 'the Works of John Whitgift' for £60 a few years ago. I can't imagine that I'd find another set for love or money.

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quote:

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It seems a bit easy to have a pop at W.O. becuase they are big, and do stock popular titles and stacks of trashy paperbacks that will be forgotten as almost as soon as they are put down. But the realities of the economics of the UK Christian bookshop scene is that they need to sell the large amounts of cheesy trash in order to sustain a ministry to the more thoughtful reader.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
...

But think what it means. It means that in the main, UK Christians are having their reading needs taken care of by trashy, pop paperbacks with more screwed-up theology than you'll find in the paper recycling bins outside a vicar factory.

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Either that or we'll have to rely on the "Spirituality" section in the local Waterstones (bookstore) *shiver*.
 

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Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by J Whitgift:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
...

But think what it means. It means that in the main, UK Christians are having their reading needs taken care of by trashy, pop paperbacks with more screwed-up theology than you'll find in the paper recycling bins outside a vicar factory.

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Either that or we'll have to rely on the "Spirituality" section in the local Waterstones (bookstore) *shiver*.

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quote:

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Originally posted by J Whitgift:

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
...

But think what it means. It means that in the main, UK Christians are having their reading needs taken care of by trashy, pop paperbacks with more screwed-up theology than you'll find in the paper recycling bins outside a vicar factory.

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Either that or we'll have to rely on the "Spirituality" section in the local Waterstones (bookstore) *shiver*.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
I agree with Dyfrig in finding the "greeting and offer of help" requirement unsettling, especially when I generally go straight to the section I want in the shop, and indeed had the reputation amongst the old staff of knowing the contents of the secondhand section better than they did.

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quote:

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Originally posted by leo:
A friend wanted to order an Affirming Catholicism book and was told that it was against their policy.

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That's what I find worrying. I can understand a shop changing hands, and whilst I might be uncomfortable with a change of name, that can be overcome in time. However, to deliberately refuse to stock a book because 'it's against our policy' opens up all sorts of issues.

That said, I think I might pop along to SPCK Westminster tomorrow to see what's going cheap on the secondhand shelves. There was a rather nice book of Elizabethan Homilies for sale, which looked rather good ... even better on my bookshelf.
 

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Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
Our local SPCK managers - like it seems, everybody else's - have been going through a horrid, horrid time. The fundamental problem seems to be that they are expected to justify themselves by making big profits on book-sales, whilst only being allowed to stock 'approved' texts. These things are frankly not compatible.

(Rabbi Lionel Blue is verboten too apparently...)

If this is set to change it can only be a good thing.
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Deliberately distorted for a little humorous light relief.

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quote:

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Originally posted by J Whitgift:

quote:

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Originally posted by leo:
A friend wanted to order an Affirming Catholicism book and was told that it was against their policy.

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That's what I find worrying. I can understand a shop changing hands, and whilst I might be uncomfortable with a change of name, that can be overcome in time. However, to deliberately refuse to stock a book because 'it's against our policy' opens up all sorts of issues.

That said, I think I might pop along to SPCK Westminster tomorrow to see what's going cheap on the secondhand shelves. There was a rather nice book of Elizabethan Homilies for sale, which looked rather good ... even better on my bookshelf.

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quote:

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Originally posted by leo:
Yes, the new Bristol shop is horrible - no space for much stock and secondhand stuff all gone.

A friend wanted to order an Affirming Catholicism book and was told that it was against their policy.

Our church is going to have a bookstall with sale or return items from Wesley Owen - apparently they see the impending likely collapse of SPCK and want to widen their range to include liberal and scholarly stuff.

I have shopped in SPCK for nearly 40 years and must have spent thoudsands of pounds. Amazon will get my custom now.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Chorister:
I used to buy books at the Exeter SPCK (and get served by Starbelly before I knew who he was on the ship - freaky!). But now I prefer Buckfast Abbey bookshop.

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Agreed! Our family holidays to the South Hams (in laws have a pied-a-terre in Kingsbridge) aren't complete without a trip to Buckfast Abbey bookshop (and a look at the 'big Jesus' window - as our eldest daughter calls it!).
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I can't say too much because I know a bit about what's been going on behind the scenes and wouldn't want to drop my moles in trouble ...

It's all very sad.

I suspect SPCK will go the way of all flesh ... but that may have been inevitable before the new management shindig. This may only prolong the inevitable.

If this does happen then Wesley Owen may become broader and more 'catholic' in its coverage. It's easy to knock WO but take a lot at some of the independent Christian bookshops that still exist. Some of them are truly bizarre - although I remember one in Huddersfield which had a goodly range of stock from across the spectrum but suffered from neck-breaking, torturous steps down into it from the front door.

How it continued was beyond me, but it certainly met a need.

I won't name names but here in semi-rural Cheshire we're served by fruit-cake outfits that don't seem to stock anything that isn't by Nicky Gumbel. Cathedral bookstalls remain a safer bet.

Gamaliel
 

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Posted by Fool on Hill (# 12183) on :
 
I love going into bookshops, especially second hand.

London also used to have (I seem to remember from longer ago than I care to admit) useful URC and Quaker bookshops (&Methodist too??)

All credit to Dave Walker for keeping the cause alive while others were looking in different directions.
 

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Posted by Peter Owen (# 134) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
For some reason, I thought Church House bookshop in Westminster was closing or relocating (???).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Chorister:
I used to buy books at the Exeter SPCK (and get served by Starbelly before I knew who he was on the ship - freaky!). But now I prefer Buckfast Abbey bookshop.

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quote:

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Originally posted by leo:
A friend wanted to order an Affirming Catholicism book and was told that it was against their policy.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Saint Chad:

quote:

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Originally posted by leo:
A friend wanted to order an Affirming Catholicism book and was told that it was against their policy.

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That's appalling, but not entirely surprising. SSG doesn't exist to further the aims of liberal Anglicanism, or liberal anything for that matter.

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Originally posted by Audry Ely:
... when visiting Margaret Street in London I noticed the Mowbrays shop - which became Mowbrays in Waterstones if I recall correctly, is no longer there.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

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Originally posted by J Whitgift:
Either that or we'll have to rely on the "Spirituality" section in the local Waterstones (bookstore) *shiver*.

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Oh yes. Two books on reading horoscopes, four on palmistry, two on your past life as a cat, and one on popular (i.e. not at all demanding) Buddhism.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Saint Chad:
Jezebel's Trumpet has a little snippett about it in today's edition.

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SSG said that it was no longer carrying the SPCK name because “more and more SPCK books [are] carrying a decidedly ‘liberal’ agenda”. Its trustees “feel the time has come to distance themselves from SPCK”.

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Originally posted by Richard Collins:
This is a deeply sad story.

Having done some internet searching it appears that SSG Charitable trust is the 'brain child' of the Brewer family (from Texas USA) and, although trying to promote 'Orthodoxy', appears to have no support or blessing from the canonical church it seeks to represent.

The Church times article makes it clear that even one of the congregations they were working with have withdrawn from working with Mark Brewer, so it appears that SSG is an unaccountable ministry of a family who just happen to also BE Orthodox (and whose behaviour it appears is totally contrary to the churches mindset).

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I would be interested to know what the Orthodox members of the Ship make of this in particular (and the SSG more generally). Where's the good St. Bertelin or Fthr. Gregory when you need them!?!
 

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Posted by Petaflop (# 9804) on :
 
FWIW, this report lists their loss before eceptional items at £563K, down from £1030K last year. With many of the experienced staff gone and new staff on a different contract, I guess their staff costs will have dropped significantly too.

However, if they are also losing customers to WO and independents, it may not be enough.
 

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Posted by J Whitgift (# 1981) on :
 
This:

quote:

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Originally posted by leo:
A friend wanted to order an Affirming Catholicism book and was told that it was against their policy.

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quote:

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Under the new arrangements, SPCK Bookshops will continue to stock a broad and diverse range of Christian books and resources.

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Lets hope that they revert to that policy in future, otherwise I can't see a future for their enterprise as it currently stands.
 

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Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 
I am afraid that my eyes glazed over in the attempt to read some of the memoranda posted on the Ruth Gledhill blog but didn't they refer to some sort of new stock control/central ordering system being put in place, and to an associated moratorium on orders being placed from the shops until the new system[s] were in place? If so, the reference to "policy" might be to this, rather than to a policy of refusing to stock AffCath books.
 

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Posted by Richard Collins (# 11515) on :
 
I have a friend who told me that the Brewer family are billionaires and so are unlikely to be running the book shop 'to make a profit'.

I guess the underlaying agenda is promote Orthodox books here in the UK, but the control freakery way they've gone about it is disturbing.

What would have happened if they hadn't taken over the SPCK chain? I guess the shops would have closed anyway.

I hear that other Orthodox churches have been 'warned off' working with the Brewer brothers re: property acquistion, so their aim to buy and 'install' congregations might fall flat (since any such congregation must arise from the canonical jurisdictions here in the Uk, all of which seem to be avoiding the venture).

This would leave them owning (and running) a chain of 'Saint Stephen the Great' Orthodox bookshops, which will stock core Orthodox texts.

Good, if you want a copy of Kallistos Ware's Festal Menaion, duff if you want a copy of Common Worship...
 

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by J Whitgift:
This:

quote:

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Originally posted by leo:
A friend wanted to order an Affirming Catholicism book and was told that it was against their policy.

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Would appear to be against this policy (as stated on the OrthodoxWiki page on SSG discussing the takeover of SPCK:

quote:

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Under the new arrangements, SPCK Bookshops will continue to stock a broad and diverse range of Christian books and resources.

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Lets hope that they revert to that policy in future, otherwise I can't see a future for their enterprise as it currently stands.

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quote:

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Originally posted by J Whitgift:
This:

quote:

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Originally posted by leo:
A friend wanted to order an Affirming Catholicism book and was told that it was against their policy.

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Would appear to be against this policy (as stated on the OrthodoxWiki page on SSG discussing the takeover of SPCK:

quote:

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Under the new arrangements, SPCK Bookshops will continue to stock a broad and diverse range of Christian books and resources.

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Lets hope that they revert to that policy in future, otherwise I can't see a future for their enterprise as it currently stands.

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That Wiki page must have been altered because there is no mention of policy other than:

'mission of distributing Christian literature.'

'continue to stock a broad and diverse range of Christian books and resources'

On SSG's own web[age it says, 'Under the new arrangements, SPCK Bookshops will continue to serve the broad and diverse SPCK customer base, and expanding the products that it offers those customers. '
 

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Posted by starbelly (# 25) on :
 
I was one of the staff who resigned from the Exeter shop, and am so glad I did so! I have lost all energy and motivation to explain all the strange and awful things that happened to the shops since SSG took over, but i am glad to be out of it!

I would personally say that you should not give any money to these people, instead have a look at Anglican Shop, which is run by a splendid ex SPCK manager, or your local Wesley Owen, despite getting bad press they are suprising open to getting any book from a Christian publisher you wish, and the conversations with staff and customers can be fun too!

And a note of encouragement to all SPCK/ex-SPCK staff, there is life after books...
 

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
I have had a downer on Wesley Owen but my church has agreed to run a sale/return bookstall and they have agreed and said that they want to stock a more 'liberal Anglican' range.

Let's support them - otherwise specialist Christian bookshops will disappear.
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 

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Originally posted by starbelly:
I would personally say that you should not give any money to these people, instead have a look at Anglican Shop, which is run by a splendid ex SPCK manager, or your local Wesley Owen, despite getting bad press they are suprising open to getting any book from a Christian publisher you wish, and the conversations with staff and customers can be fun too!

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quote:

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Originally posted by leo:

A friend wanted to order an Affirming Catholicism book and was told that it was against their policy.

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I had many dealings with the branch in Chester and the manager and the staff were totally sound.
 

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Posted by starbelly (# 25) on :
 

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Originally posted by Peter Ould:
Does anybody know what the content of these new employment contracts was? I'm hearing lots of complaint about them, but until we actually see one that's all just hearsay.

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Yes, I was given one, the original one which I declined to sign contained all sorts of strange things, including that we would be available to clean their churches, do landscaping, that we would actively look out for redundant churches for the trust, that we would work Sundays, that we would work any time of day or night as required, would not be paid for any work done over our contracted hours. The contract did away with part time staff, so you were either on a Full time contract or a casual contract with no guarenteed hours. The amount of holiday and sick pay arrangements were both illegal under UK law. There was an odd appendix saying that if we ran "events" we could not use a whole list of music (including music using electric guitars or drum, non religious vocal music or atonal music)... I could go on and on.

In short the contract was very detailed about what the staff were expected to do, but contained nothing about what we could expect of our employers, although by that stage I had fully realised what to expect from my employers...
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 


utterly unenforceable - what did they think they were doing? If someone signed it and they got sacked for (say) cleaning the church with a Turkish brand of bleach afer midnight on a holy day of obligation and having the temerity to request wages for it (or whatever) the employers would very likely lose any tribunal for unfair dismissal
 

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Posted by starbelly (# 25) on :
 
The contract was so unsignable most people thought they had come up with it just to get rid of us all, but then when either whole shops resigned or people refused to sign it (after 11 small ammendments) they seemed really shocked. I think they genuinely thought it was a good contract, which for lawyers seems really bizarre! (I can only assume they are really bad lawyers!)
 

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Posted by Peter Ould (# 482) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by starbelly:
The contract was so unsignable most people thought they had come up with it just to get rid of us all, but then when either whole shops resigned or people refused to sign it (after 11 small ammendments) they seemed really shocked. I think they genuinely thought it was a good contract, which for lawyers seems really bizarre! (I can only assume they are really bad lawyers!)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Peter Ould:

quote:

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Originally posted by starbelly:
The contract was so unsignable most people thought they had come up with it just to get rid of us all, but then when either whole shops resigned or people refused to sign it (after 11 small ammendments) they seemed really shocked. I think they genuinely thought it was a good contract, which for lawyers seems really bizarre! (I can only assume they are really bad lawyers!)

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If the contract is illegal and people have been sacked for not signing it, surely it's time for the employment lawyers to remind SSG of its obligations under the law of the land?

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quote:

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Originally posted by dorothea:
Dear me! The contract thing is horrendous. Was it ammended? Or did everyone leave? Have people signed amended versions?

J

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quote:

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Originally posted by dorothea:
This is sad news indeed. I recall when the Manchester branch closed and, until I discovered St Denys' in Oak street (thanks to a ship mate), I was stuck for an alternative.

I wasn't so keen on the evangelical Christian book shop on Deansgate (I think that might have gone now) and have always struggled with Wesley Owen in Bolton with its displays of Americanised Kingdom Dynamics stuff. I really dislike browsing there and end to come out wondering why on earth I'm a Christian at all, if this is how we market ourselves. Waterstones in Manchester does offer some good stuff, despite the 'wish upon a star' drivel they stock in their eclectic spirituality section. The Bolton one, which is smaller doesn’t offer the same range but has some interesting selections from time-to-time and does acknowledge more traditional forms of spirituality alongside Angel cards.

I have not been to any SPCK shops since the change over but will check out the Canterbury one next time I’m there.

J

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quote:

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Yes, I was given one, the original one which I declined to sign contained all sorts of strange things, including that we would be available to clean their churches, do landscaping, that we would actively look out for redundant churches for the trust, that we would work Sundays, that we would work any time of day or night as required, would not be paid for any work done over our contracted hours.

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Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
have been to Waterstones in Piccadilly, though, but I find that Waterstones is generally not as good at organising things as either Borders or Foyles are.

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The Waterstones on Gower Street has a bigger selection of theology than the others - and of academic books in general.

CLC is mostly the same sort of selection as Wesley Owen (though its a lot bigger than any WO shop I've been to) but it does have quite a lot of books int he Bible commetary line, and also tends to have very cheap pperbacks from America, often from a Reformed/Calvinist point of view. There seemed to be lots of books by Don Carson last time I went. Also stuff on preaching from the Wee Frees

(Is CLC connected with a Presbyterian church at all?)
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Don't think so. Here is their about us . Raises some interesting questions but the most I can find out about colour of Evangelical is that the certainly are EA. Having searched a bit further there seems to be some Methodism in its origin with C.T. Studd being influential and him volunteering for Hudson Taylor who was the son of a Methodist shopkeeper but really no idea.

Jengie
 

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Posted by FreeJack (# 10612) on :
 
CLC are evangelical and ecumenical. Internationally it is evangelistic. Getting bibles into non-Christian countries etc.

(Ok, that is ecumenical in the sense of being all kinds of free church evangelical and evangelical Anglican, rather than RC, Orthodox or your average Methodist LEP.)

They wouldn't take a position on charismatic gifts, mode of baptism and would sell books on both sides of the arguments!
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
FreeJack

Most Ecumenicals organisations have "a sponsor" of some sort. Most have a difficult relationship with that sponsor but it is interesting to find out who it is and can be enlightening.

Oh I don't think Presbyterian at all. It was formed in Colchester in 1931. So you only have ex-pat Scots (including Irish Scots and the occasional Welsh man) Presbyterianism as a real option.

Jengie
 

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Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :
 
There are a couple of shops in North London,

Wesley Owen in Wealdstone,

a smallish one with really friendly workers and lots of books, and very efficient at ordering them, and

Cornerstone Bookshop
45-51 Woodhouse Road
North Finchley, London N12 9ET,

again where you can order books and where they have a good mixture, not all extremely expensive.

CLC is quite different from many others, with a different kind of wide variety, and has some books that are very interesting.

The RC one in Kensington High Street has more art than any of the others, as far as I have experienced.
 

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Posted by J Whitgift (# 1981) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Richard Collins:
I have a friend who told me that the Brewer family are billionaires and so are unlikely to be running the book shop 'to make a profit'.

I guess the underlaying agenda is promote Orthodox books here in the UK, but the control freakery way they've gone about it is disturbing.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
There's also a Christian bookshop on Fleet Street whose name I've forgotten, but which I don't really rate. It's far better than the Crypt, though, but probably not as good as SPCK or Church House Bookshop in my opinion.

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Originally posted by Cedd:
I went into the CLC on Holborn Viaduct for the last time about 3 years ago. It was the last time for two (related) reasons:

1. Books on Catholicism were all in the 'Cult' section; and

2. I overheard someone ordering a book and being told that they could not order it because it was by a Catholic writer.

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quote:

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Originally posted by GreyFace:
If I was a Bishop with jurisdiction over them, I'd be inclined to have a quiet word involving urgent courses in the pastoral care of staff and effective management of publicity. Using a big stick if necessary.

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quote:

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Originally posted by J Whitgift:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
There's also a Christian bookshop on Fleet Street whose name I've forgotten, but which I don't really rate. It's far better than the Crypt, though, but probably not as good as SPCK or Church House Bookshop in my opinion.

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It could be the Protestant Truth Society bookshop. They have a bookshop, it's just past the High Court buildings going East along Fleet St towards St. Paul's.

quote:

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Originally posted by Cedd:
I went into the CLC on Holborn Viaduct for the last time about 3 years ago. It was the last time for two (related) reasons:

1. Books on Catholicism were all in the 'Cult' section; and

2. I overheard someone ordering a book and being told that they could not order it because it was by a Catholic writer.

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Personally I'd long ago filed the CLC bookshop in Holborn in the same draw along with the Protestant Truth Society. When I last visited the CLC bookshop they had a large selection of Chick Tracts on sale, never a good sign in my opinion.

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Originally posted by FreeJack:
CLC are evangelical and ecumenical. Internationally it is evangelistic. Getting bibles into non-Christian countries etc.

(Ok, that is ecumenical in the sense of being all kinds of free church evangelical and evangelical Anglican, rather than RC, Orthodox or your average Methodist LEP.)

They wouldn't take a position on charismatic gifts, mode of baptism and would sell books on both sides of the arguments!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Callan:
A few years ago I went past the Protestant Truth Society bookshop ... Nowadays its your common or garden evangelical bookshop.

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Perhaps I should swallow my theological pride and pop in for a look. (Though I can't quite get over the implicit oxymoron in the shop's name. )
 

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Posted by Saint Chad (# 5645) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Pyx_e:
I was looking for something and popped into an SPCK (not my local) and was told to get it off the internet!!!??? So this is what an orthodox take over really looks like

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"The Plot" thickens!
 

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
My friend who was told that their policvy not to stock Affirming Catholicism material has a letter of apology yesterday. It blamed inexperienced staff who had worked with SPCK for many years but who had not fully got used to the changes, then it said their database didn't have the book and they were glad she found the book on the internet. Finally 'change is inevitable and is, I hope, something our long-standing customers will feel willing to 'ride-out''
 

---

Posted by Clavus (# 9427) on :
 
If they still have it in print, I highly recommend the Protestant Truth Society's booklet about their founder called 'Contending for the Faith' ('The authentic history of the life and martyrdom of John Kensit and the work that he founded'). It has some lovely photos of anglo-catholic churches, processions, etc. - all in black and white, but the captions and the rest of the text are very colourful!
 

---

Posted by J Whitgift (# 1981) on :
 
I popped into the SPCK bookshop in Westminster at lunchtime. No change in staff and the second-hand section is still there. All very curious ...
 

---

Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :
 
I liked the SPCK bookshop in Marylebone Road - very useful for a "gift' for my son of a Bible with Hebrew, translation and then up-to-date English, all written verse by verse.

And there is the Methodist Bookshop at 25 Marylebone Road, a smallish shop on the ground floor of a huge building. They have some interesting and useful books and cards etc etc there, and I think they order requests.
 

---

Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :
 
And what about this Index of Christian Bookshops?

I meant to put it on the previous post...
 

---

Posted by Yerevan (# 10383) on :
 
Are there any scripture union shops in the UK? The one in Dublin is very bizarre in an America end times sort of way.
 

---

Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :
 
En passant the St Paul's Bookshop next door to Westminster Cathedral celebrated its 15th birthday today, at the 5.30pm Cathedral Sung Mass.

Excellent place,
Q.
 

---

Posted by FreeJack (# 10612) on :
 
There used to be a Catholicy bookshop on Kensington High Street (London W8) which was quite good. Run by nuns (either RC or A-C) but reasonable ecumenical mix of materials on sale. Haven't been there for a few years, and can't remember which saint it was named after!
 

---

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by FreeJack:
There used to be a Catholicy bookshop on Kensington High Street (London W8) which was quite good. Run by nuns (either RC or A-C) but reasonable ecumenical mix of materials on sale. Haven't been there for a few years, and can't remember which saint it was named after!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yerevan:
Are there any scripture union shops in the UK? The one in Dublin is very bizarre in an America end times sort of way.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by FreeJack:
There used to be a Catholicy bookshop on Kensington High Street (London W8) which was quite good. Run by nuns (either RC or A-C) but reasonable ecumenical mix of materials on sale. Haven't been there for a few years, and can't remember which saint it was named after!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yerevan:
Are there any scripture union shops in the UK? The one in Dublin is very bizarre in an America end times sort of way.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Astro:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yerevan:
Are there any scripture union shops in the UK? The one in Dublin is very bizarre in an America end times sort of way.

---

They were sold to STL who rebranded them (as well as the STL shops) as Wesley Owen

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by daisymay:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Astro:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yerevan:
Are there any scripture union shops in the UK? The one in Dublin is very bizarre in an America end times sort of way.

---

They were sold to STL who rebranded them (as well as the STL shops) as Wesley Owen

---

The Wesley Owen in Wigmore Street used to be CSSM - a long time ago.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Father Gregory:
Someone had better warn the Ethiopians ...
All Drummed Out

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spong:
Two thoughts occur to me: first, that the remaining staff should be joining a union as soon as possible so that their TUPE rights can be protected by someone who can bring some legal advice to bear.

And second, are we not going about this the wrong way when we talk about avoiding SPCK? Surely we should all make a point of going into our local SPCK shop on a regular basis and asking why they no longer appear to be stocking X, where X is a book of the sort that SPCK used to stock and doesn't stock now? I think I'm going to regularly ask for one of my namesake's books...

---

Here here.
 

---

Posted by Father Gregory (# 310) on :
 
Brewer & Pritchard PC
 

---

Posted by HyperPilgrim (# 11805) on :
 
The UK Christian Bookshops Directory has launched a support fund for remaindered SPCK booksellers: Save the SPCK Booksellers — maybe if enough of us get it together we could give a group of booksellers enough support to start up with their own independent shop?
 

---

Posted by J Whitgift (# 1981) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by J Whitgift:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Callan:
A few years ago I went past the Protestant Truth Society bookshop ... Nowadays its your common or garden evangelical bookshop.

---

Perhaps I should swallow my theological pride and pop in for a look. (Though I can't quite get over the implicit oxymoron in the shop's name. )

---

Popped in to the PTS bookshop yesterday, it was absolutely bonkers - a mix of books on Calvin, books by Jack Chick (or from his publishers) and copies of the English Churchman. Hardly what I'd expect from a 'common or garden evangelical bookshop'.

At least I now know where to go to get my fortnightly copy of the Churchman!

[I've no idea what 'Churcham' is. ]

[ 22. November 2007, 11:23: Message edited by: J Whitgift ]
 

---

Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by HyperPilgrim:
The UK Christian Bookshops Directory has launched a support fund for remaindered SPCK booksellers: Save the SPCK Booksellers — maybe if enough of us get it together we could give a group of booksellers enough support to start up with their own independent shop?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by J Whitgift:

quote:

---

Originally posted by J Whitgift:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Callan:
A few years ago I went past the Protestant Truth Society bookshop ... Nowadays its your common or garden evangelical bookshop.

---

Perhaps I should swallow my theological pride and pop in for a look. (Though I can't quite get over the implicit oxymoron in the shop's name. )

---

Popped in to the PTS bookshop yesterday, it was absolutely bonkers - a mix of books on Calvin, books by Jack Chick (or from his publishers) and copies of the English Churchman. Hardly what I'd expect from a 'common or garden evangelical bookshop'.
]

---

They couldn't supply one of our ordinands with a missal either - of any variety!
He was able to report that they were quite kind and helpful though
 

---

Posted by Callan (# 525) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by J Whitgift:

quote:

---

Originally posted by J Whitgift:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Callan:
A few years ago I went past the Protestant Truth Society bookshop ... Nowadays its your common or garden evangelical bookshop.

---

Perhaps I should swallow my theological pride and pop in for a look. (Though I can't quite get over the implicit oxymoron in the shop's name. )

---

Popped in to the PTS bookshop yesterday, it was absolutely bonkers - a mix of books on Calvin, books by Jack Chick (or from his publishers) and copies of the English Churchman. Hardly what I'd expect from a 'common or garden evangelical bookshop'.

At least I now know where to go to get my fortnightly copy of the Churchman!

[I've no idea what 'Churcham' is. ]

---

Caveat Emptor!

If they're back on the Whore of Babylon stuff I might go and have a decko. Last time I was there it was dull, dull, dull.
 

---

Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Carys:
I went into my local SPCK on Saturday and what struck me about it was that there were fewer books than in the past.

---

I, too, have noticed this on a weekly perambulation past a local branch of SSG (formerly known as SPCK). The shelves are progressively being filled by displaying books cover outwards, rather than spine. Far fewer books per linear metre shelf run.

Q.
 

---

Posted by Charles Read (# 3963) on :
 
And you can't buy Church Times there now as it is published by an evil librul outfit.

They print it in Norwich though, so I could probably moonlight as a proofreader...
 

---

Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Charles Read:
And you can't buy Church Times there now as it is published by an evil librul outfit.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Miffy:
What's the name of that independent Christian bookshop in Edinburgh off Princes Gardens? It's attached to one of the churches, I think. I discovered it on holiday and was astounded at the breadth of stock compared to W.O. A real treasure trove. Unfortunately it'd be a wee bit expensive to hop up to Scotland every time I wanted to expand my horizons.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matrix:
Whilst I agree that Wesley Owen don't stock a huge number of Academic textbooks, they are certainly there. Although my nearest one, Bromley, may be an exception to the norm.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matrix:
Whilst I agree that Wesley Owen don't stock a huge number of Academic textbooks, they are certainly there. Although my nearest one, Bromley, may be an exception to the norm.

---

You might want to try the one in Croydon - last time I browsed there they had quite a few decent academic books - if, as you say, you can stomach the 'Left Behind'-type nonsense and pop-theology du jour that also sits on their shelves.

---

quote:

---

postman

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by J Whitgift:
We're spoilt here in London having at least 4 top quality Christian bookshops:

- Mowbrays (inside Hatchards)
- Church House Book Shop, Westminster
- SPCK, Westminster
- St. Paul's bookshop, Westminster Cathedral.

However, this is going to be a blow for smaller towns/cities where it's the only descent academic Christian retailer. (I'm discounting Wesley Owen under that heading because they tend not to sell academic books or Catholic/Orthodox material.)

Having just looked at the SPCK online website St. Stephen the Great Charitable Trust are certainly playing up their Orthodox links. In particular note that there's now a 'top 10 Orthodox books' at the top right-hand side of the page and various links to St Stephen's.

Whilst I prefer Church House bookshop to the SPCK one, I like their secondhand books section and their eclectic mix of titles. It will be a huge blow if the Orthodox link turns the bookshops into ones which simply sell Orthodox material. It will leave Anglicans and other denominations high and dry in terms of bookselling resources. Whether this will actually happen remains to be seen, but it can't help if SPCK remove their sponsorship of the shops.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Plato's Cat

J Whitgift listed the top 4 bookshops he was familiar with. I can immediately add The CTS Bookshop by Westminster Cathedral, the Padre Pio Bookshop in Vauxhall Bridge Road, and St Paul's Multimedia in Kensington High Street. That's just the Catholic ones I've popped into. It's not accurate to say Christian bookshops are all closing down while Islamic ones are springing up. Islam is not taking over, and if it is thriving, that is mostly by immigration rather than by conversion. Extrapolating some sort of Islamification based on the SPCK's troubles is an odd deduction.

---

Yes I had overlooked those bookshops. My observations are purely subjective.

But over say the past 10 years many new Islamic bookshops have opened up in central London, and my guess is that they easily outnumber the established Christian ones.

Btw, and this is off topic, an increasing number of English people are becoming Muslims. At Regents Park Mosque it is a frequent occurance

PC
 

---

Posted by Father Gregory (# 310) on :
 
Facts, figures? Comparative statistics with baptisms / conversions? Show your hand.
 

---

Posted by Real Ale Methodist (# 7390) on :
 
If there really is better provision for islamic books than Christian ones. (BTW how many books on Islam or for Muslims does your local Waterstones, Borders or Blackwells carry? All my local ones have a small but reasonable Christianity section, and three korans, as well as the dreaded "spirituality" secction)

But even if this is true, so what, what kind of point are you trying to make? The only one I would make from this information is that either, the ownership of Islamic books is more important to Muslims than it is to Christians, either for their symbolic worth or because Muslims devote more time to study. If the latter is the case then this should be a wakeup call to the rest of us, if Muslims can fit in more study in their lives, why can't Christians? Or perhaps Islamic books are harder to find without devoted stores (what I try and hint at above)? Or perhaps you are indulging, consciously or otherwise in some sort of scare mongering.

Assuming the latter is not the case I find your point opaque. Perhaps you could clarify.
 

---

Posted by Emma. (# 3571) on :
 
Oooh Brewer has been directly involved in Poole has he?! I'm privileged...although I didn't know we had an orthodox church (or an SPCK come to think of it - I thought the nearest was the lovely one in Winchester).

Hmmmmm.....
 

---

Posted by Father Gregory (# 310) on :
 
Let's hope that this Orthodox church lasts longer than the previous one.

Orthodox is as-one-does as well as as-one-is.

In medieval England they were called "Lords of the Manor."
 

---

Posted by Plato's cat (# 11158) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Father Gregory:
Facts, figures? Comparative statistics with baptisms / conversions? Show your hand.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Real Ale Methodist:
If there really is better provision for islamic books than Christian ones. (BTW how many books on Islam or for Muslims does your local Waterstones, Borders or Blackwells carry? All my local ones have a small but reasonable Christianity section, and three korans, as well as the dreaded "spirituality" secction)

But even if this is true, so what, what kind of point are you trying to make? The only one I would make from this information is that either, the ownership of Islamic books is more important to Muslims than it is to Christians, either for their symbolic worth or because Muslims devote more time to study. If the latter is the case then this should be a wakeup call to the rest of us, if Muslims can fit in more study in their lives, why can't Christians? Or perhaps Islamic books are harder to find without devoted stores (what I try and hint at above)? Or perhaps you are indulging, consciously or otherwise in some sort of scare mongering.

Assuming the latter is not the case I find your point opaque. Perhaps you could clarify.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
Could it not be that the 'brown paper bag' nature of some Islamist publications means that Islamic Extremists can't use Amazon like everyone else?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Emma.:
Oooh Brewer has been directly involved in Poole has he?! I'm privileged...although I didn't know we had an orthodox church (or an SPCK come to think of it - I thought the nearest was the lovely one in Winchester).

Hmmmmm.....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Plato's cat:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
Could it not be that the 'brown paper bag' nature of some Islamist publications means that Islamic Extremists can't use Amazon like everyone else?

---

'brown paper bag nature of some Islamist publications'

What on earth are you refering to?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Call me Numpty:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Plato's cat:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
Could it not be that the 'brown paper bag' nature of some Islamist publications means that Islamic Extremists can't use Amazon like everyone else?

---

'brown paper bag nature of some Islamist publications'

What on earth are you refering to?

---

Illicit publications in Britain have traditionally been sold 'under the counter' in brown paper bags. I would imagine that extremist literature is sold in a similar way. Not through Amazon which is where lots of Christians buy their books.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Plato's cat:
I'm certainly not indulging in scare mongering! As a Muslim I visit many of these bookshops quite frequently. My experience of Islamic books in the bigs stores like Foyles, Blackwells and Waterstones is generally postive: I picked up some excellent Islamic books a few years ago at Waterstones and they lead to my conversion to Islam - so I'm not complaining.

PC

---

My apologies, but I have seen the same line trolled out before with that intent. People bring up the success of Islam for no obvious reason, usually it means it is something I am supposed to be concerned about, as you can see, it does not bother me.

I had always assumed that the proliferation of Islamic bookstores was largely to do not with the demographic spread of Islam, but the niche nature of the publications. That is to say books on Islamic subjects are hard to find, so specialist bookstores trade in them. In the same way that speciality food stores fill in the gaps that the big chains pass over.

The growth of Islam in the west is still largely a demographic phenomena, rather than a case of "true" conversion. Nonetheless I myself know a few converts, usually they have come to Islam through a partner rather than approaching it "cold" so to speak.
 

---

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
The latest radio article on this issue. You'll have to scroll through a bit to come to it as it's audio. Click on 'Sunday' in the box marked 'Most Popular shows'.
 

---

Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :
 
I heard Fr Gregory this morning!

IMO the SPCK (?American) person wasn't really understanding what was going on, nor did he seem to be acting (IMO) sensibly...

Did you all listen then, or was it just me and Anselmina?
 

---

Posted by starbelly (# 25) on :
 
Yeah I heard it, good to hear some of my former workmates on there, and our Exeter resignation got a special mention!

Confirmed to me that the new owners of the shops live in a fantasy world far away from realities.
 

---

Posted by Real Ale Methodist (# 7390) on :
 
I listened.

Basically it sounds like the owners have no interest in SPCK as a chain of bookstores, but merely as property for their mission to purchase new churches.

The mission would be admirable (sort of*), if it didn't have to involve them destroying a valuable company, and walking over hundreds of employers. They should have been honest from the start and said they intended to dismantle the SPCK chain.

* As Fr Gregory pointed out on t'wireless, the idea of saving a church from becoming an Islamic study center is an uncomfortable one. Especially since the only reason that was given for it potentially falling into Islamic hands was because it was in Manningham. I would have been far happier if they were saving a church from being a carpet rite. Or if they had talked about the desire for churches not to fall out of use as churches. I myself am just happy to see a church being used to serve the spiritual needs of its community, even if that means conversion to Islamic usage.
 

---

Posted by Father Gregory (# 310) on :
 
Away from SPCK for a moment.

Brewer has this crazy idea that all he needs to do is buy a few churches, open them and people will flock in when they see "good ole time relijun."

Now that might work in the American south but he completely misapprehends British and European religious culture in thinking in this way.

It is also a completely unOrthodox way of going about things. The community gathers first, you hire premises and then much later you seek a building with an existing congregation that can sustain it. The community seeks a building not the building the congregation. Moreover Brewer seems to regard his hoped for "Network of 47" as a personal franchise. How very, very odd. Well, completely unacceptable actually from an Orthodox point of view.

What we are seeing perhaps with the SPCK Bookshops (or whatever they must be called now) is a particular style of American "hands-on" management." That doesn't go down well here .... except on certain TV reality shows!

Let's hope that the lawyers don't get too much work next year.

The moral of the story?

"Beware of Texans bearing gifts."

I apologise to the great inhabitants of the Lone Star state for the generality of that literary allusion.

[ 16. December 2007, 14:20: Message edited by: Father Gregory ]
 

---

Posted by andreas1984 (# 9313) on :
 
He's an American? That explains a lot...
 

---

Posted by Emma. (# 3571) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Emma.:
Oooh Brewer has been directly involved in Poole has he?! I'm privileged...although I didn't know we had an orthodox church (or an SPCK come to think of it - I thought the nearest was the lovely one in Winchester).

Hmmmmm.....

---

Yes - they took over St. Osmund's Parkstone - a former anglo-catholic bastion but the building had structural problems so the congregation moved in with St. Peter's and this orthodox group (? sect?) took on the building.

---

THanks for that LEo (and how do you know that ?!?! Are you secretly living down here too?!)

I know St. Osmund's church, just didn't realise it had become Orthodox. Its not central Poole but definately still Poole. I went to St.Peter's Carol Service and it was really lovely. Its quite "high" church but still accesible to someone like me Beautiful!

You learn a new thing every day!
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
I used to live in Dorset and we went to S. Osmund's for GSS (servers' guild) jamborees - if it were still Anglican it would probably be forward in faith whereas S. Peter's is probably Affirming Catholic.

I heard the broadcast about SPCK - the American spokesperson seemed to be out of touch, if not telling downright lies. He claimed that they have widened their stock - bristol hasn't, unless you count a few Orthodox books.

He claims that pay and conditions of service haven't worsened yet was contradicted by our former manager here, whom I have known for several years and trust.
 

---

Posted by Richard Collins (# 11515) on :
 
Good to hear your real life voice Father Gregory!

Good points, well made.

As for the Brewers...what a pair of loons! Totally deluded. I only hope some employment tribunal gives them a 'wake up call'. Although I doubt it would make them see sense.

Very sorry story - SPCK trustees have a lot to say sorry for...
 

---

Posted by Ferdinand (# 12438) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by andreas1984:
He's an American? That explains a lot...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by aumbry:
J Whitgift said:

quote:

---

postman

---

This does not sound like a word from a man who buys his books from a bookshop but from the catalogue of a dealer or, horror of horrors, over the interweb.

Aumbry

---

Unfortunately I can only get some of the titles I want in bookshops. Whilst London is well supplied with bookshops, hardly any of them (including Blackwells) have the books I'm looking for. Sadly the internet is the only to find some titles.
 

---

Posted by Edward::Green (# 46) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Father Gregory:
Away from SPCK for a moment.

Brewer has this crazy idea that all he needs to do is buy a few churches, open them and people will flock in when they see "good ole time relijun."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by andreas1984:
Churches close for a reason. It is very sad that they close, but the saddest part is that the people remain ignorant of the renewal of Life Jesus Christ brings. So, if you have the guts, become a saint first, and evangelize the people by your presence, and then the churches will become full again. Start solving their problems and conflicts, let the Holy Spirit heal others through you, and then the people will go to church. You don't get an empty church first... What are you going to do with it??

---

But the Good Shepherd leads from the front, and Orthodox Saints preach primarily by their being what they are.
I am only on The Way. So are most of us.

Be patient. Give us time.

 

---

Posted by innocent(ish) (# 12691) on :
 
In my copy of Christianity magazine that arrived this morning, one of the fliers that I normally file in the bin was a small catalogue from Wesley Owen, titled 'The Anglican Store'. All the items a discerning CofE type could possibly want.

Looks like following the failed merger talks, they're going for the jugular with SPCK in its current mess.
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
I went to the Wesley Own book sale today. SPCK, opposite, was closed until the New year!
 

---

Posted by Richard Collins (# 11515) on :
 
Went to the SSG/SPCK in Worcester a few days ago. Friendly staff, very helpful. Popped up stairs to find most of the shelves empty. The woman serving downstairs warned me that I 'would be surprised to see they didn't have much'.

Was tempted to give her a knowing nod and mention Dave Walker's name but decided I didn't want to get into an argument with lurking Brewer bros and left.
 

---

Posted by Seeker963 (# 2066) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Richard Collins:
Went to the SSG/SPCK in Worcester a few days ago. Friendly staff, very helpful. Popped up stairs to find most of the shelves empty. The woman serving downstairs warned me that I 'would be surprised to see they didn't have much'.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by andreas1984:
It explains the bizarre idea that buying unused churches would somehow fill them with faithful...

---

Actually, no, being American per se doesn't explain that. Being a megalomaniac might .

Sounds like this fellow is running up against the different business, social, and news cultures in the UK, and a good thing, too. "That ain't no way to run a railroad," as we say in the US (meaning, "Any fool can see that those people don't know how to run their own business").

It is customary in the US for a congregation to meet in makeshift spaces until they are able to afford their own premises, instead of the way this chappie seems to be going about it.

The poster's point that the US is a big country with a lot of people and we don't all think alike is a good one to keep in mind. Avoiding overbroad generalizations is a good way to keep discussion on-track and civilized.

Charlotte
 

---

Posted by J Whitgift (# 1981) on :
 
I was in SPCK Westminster yesterday lunchtime.

Sadly the St Stephen the Great links seem to have become more pronounced since I was last in there (Nov/Dec last year). The shop has also become Orthodox focused, though in fairly subtle ways (it's always had, I think, links to the Orthodox Community in London). There's now a poster saying that contributions can be made to the S.StG closed Church fund and Prinknash Incense has now been replaced by that produced by the (Orthodox) monastery in Brookwood Cemetary (I think. )

It still has a wide range of Anglican/RC books in its stock (as well as a well stocked second hand section which is nice!) However, the range of Ikons* and Holy Medals on sale now reflects more Orthodox tastes/needs.

Thankfully the staff remain the same, for the timebeing, though it would be interesting to know what their take on the transfer of SPCK to S.StG has been.

* The Agate Ikons on sale look quite nice, in a kitsch sort of way.
 

---

Posted by Father Gregory (# 310) on :
 
Dear J Whitgift

Now, I am no fan of Mark Brewer (to say the least!) but I find your post strangely ungenerous. You concede that there is still a wide range of Anglican and Roman Catholic books on sale but why should you be surprised that there are now more Orthodox items on sale and more icons? Trying to shoe-horn Orthodox material into Christian bookshops has been well nigh impossible for many years, notwithstanding buoyant sales from Orthodox distributors (mainly large parish operations and mail order).

By the way have you ever compared Prinknash incense and Orthodox incense? No contest!
 

---

Posted by J Whitgift (# 1981) on :
 
Father Gregory

I apologise if my post seems ungenerous, it was not intended to be so, I was merely trying to describe what I saw. However, I agree in retrospect that description may have fallen into decrying a necessary shift in emphasis, given the change of owner.

Having experienced Orthodox incense only on one occasion* I cannot properly comment. I merely wanted to note the change in supplier. I have tried Prinknash, in my flat ... it smells very nice, though as others have commented, it's designed to fill a large Church, not a small flat.

I agree that there are hardly any Orthodox suppliers (in London). SPCK Westminster (and interestingly Church House Bookshop) always seemed to buck that trend with a well stocked Orthodox book section and a good selection of Iconography. I am pleased, that having changed hands, the range of books (from Orthodox, RC and AC) remains very good ... they even had Ken Leech's book 'Soul Friend' on prominent display.

My comment on the Icons was not meant to be rude. I love Iconography, both as in their role in devotion (and for what they mean) but also for their artistic style. It seems to me sad that the Agate Icons were on such prominent display, when far nicer ones are available elsewhere.

It would seem that, given the earlier comments on this thread about S.StG's take over of SPCK, the shop Westminster has managed this transition very well, with little or no fuss.

J Whitgift.

* From Mount Athos, at St Matthew's, Westminster. I cannot begin to describe the smell that was produced.
 

---

Posted by GreyFace (# 4682) on :
 
I don't think anybody would consider it unreasonable of SSG to introduce more Orthodox materials into the SPCK, and in fact when the takeover was announced I remember thinking that this might be a good use for some of the shelves currently being used to sell new-agey fluffy-bunny rubbish

The problems seem to have been two-fold. First, there are reports of SSG/SPCK shops having to stop supplying non-Orthodox materials, which is very different from the above and might be seen by some as an attempt to stamp out the vile British heresies of the West (probably generally unwelcome) rather than to enhance British Christianity by Orthodox influence (probably very welcome). Second, poor management of staff relations and changes in conditions resulting in widespread resignations.

J Whitgift appears to be reporting that things are not that bad at Westminster and at least on the surface are much more positive.

[cross-posted]

[ 17. January 2008, 09:53: Message edited by: GreyFace ]
 

---

Posted by Father Gregory (# 310) on :
 
Dear J Whitgift

Thank you for yoir most generous clarification.

There is much in Ken Leech from which the Orthodox can profit - with discernment. I still refer to his "True God."

[ 17. January 2008, 09:55: Message edited by: Father Gregory ]
 

---

Posted by Teufelchen (# 10158) on :
 
As an aside, does starbelly or anyone else know whether the illegal contracts (and resulting constructive dismissals) have been reported to BERR (formerly the DTI)?

T.
 

---

Posted by Hel (# 5248) on :
 
I told my mum about the SSG takeover when I first came across this thread last year as she uses the Carlisle branch of SPCK a lot. She asked the shop assistant about it when she went in earlier this week and he was reduced to tears explaining what was happening, poor man.

He said that they were now making a significant loss and he felt the shop wouldn't last much longer, and was hoping it would be sold off as an independent shop and possible built up to be successful again.
 

---

Posted by Margaret (# 283) on :
 
I wonder if SSG are beginning to reconsider their policies? A friend of mine goes to the Truro branch every so often, and he was told last year that they were no longer going to stock the votive candles which he used to buy. The staff were unhappy about the changes and left in a body on Christmas Eve.

He tried going in again yesterday and though there seemed to be only one person on duty she was helpful - and told him that they were now re-ordering the candles. It sounds as if the management may have noticed something.
 

---

Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hel:
... she uses the Carlisle branch of SPCK a lot...

---

I would be sorry to see that branch go. It's not my nearest Christian bookshop, but I have always found the staff there efficient, knowledgeable and customer friendly. They tend to remember who you and are unfailingly helpful in the process of ordering and sending out purchases made by phone.
 

---

Posted by J Whitgift (# 1981) on :
 
It sounds as though the change-over was very badly handled.

Father Gregory made an important point yesterday that there are virtually no suppliers of Orthodox good on the high street. Therefore the SSG takeover of SPCK now means that there is now at least some coverage of this field, albeit still very limited. I think that remains an inportant point, if not as major a one as the way in which the staff felt they were treated.

It's no necessarily change that is the problem but the way in which that change is managed. As was noted earlier in the thread, the changeover from SPCK to SSG caused a large number of staff to leave their employment (en masse). Perhaps if the changeover had been managed better then these difficulties wouldn't have arisen, and we'd now have an Orthodox managed shop selling ecclesiastical goods. That said, the SPCK in Westminster does not seem to have been badly affected by the changeover, with little no change in stock or staff other than a shift from Prinknash incense to Orthodox suppliers. Most importantly of all (from my perspective) was that the secondhand section remained in situ. Whilst the internet is good for finding out of print books quickly, there's nothing to compare with the mini-epiphany of finding a long-sought after tome in a secondhand bookshop!
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
Wesley Owen are now stocking paschal candles, incense, wafers etc.

I suppose even evangelicals are prey to capitalism!

But I'd rather buy a paschal candle from a shop than risk its being damaged in the post.
 

---

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Some current news.

Staff in Norwich fired by e-mail. Apparently other centres have similar experiences

I know some of the folks fired from the SPCK shop in Norwich, including some really long term servant-hearted people. The way this has been done has made me both very sad and very angry.
 

---

Posted by J Whitgift (# 1981) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Staff in Norwich fired by e-mail. Apparently other centres have similar experiences

---

quote:

---

Norwich manager Jim Channell, who has lost his job, said: "All the staff were fired today by e-mail for not signing new employment contracts which were offered to them.* [...]"

...

The rejected new staff employment contracts included a ban on any pay for overtime and that no events could be held at the Resource Centre which were not in Eastern Orthodox-style.

[* Emphasis mine.]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by J Whitgift:
Whilst dismissal by e-mail does seem rather off (Presumably the staff have to serve a notice period, say 30 days?) In the defence of SSG the sacked staff did refuse to sign new employment contracts.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by J Whitgift:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Staff in Norwich fired by e-mail. Apparently other centres have similar experiences

---

I think it may clarify matters if this part of the article is included:

quote:

---

Norwich manager Jim Channell, who has lost his job, said: "All the staff were fired today by e-mail for not signing new employment contracts which were offered to them.* [...]"

...

The rejected new staff employment contracts included a ban on any pay for overtime and that no events could be held at the Resource Centre which were not in Eastern Orthodox-style.

[* Emphasis mine.]

---

Whilst dismissal by e-mail does seem rather off (Presumably the staff have to serve a notice period, say 30 days?) In the defence of SSG the sacked staff did refuse to sign new employment contracts.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
Wesley Owen are now stocking paschal candles, incense, wafers etc.

I suppose even evangelicals are prey to capitalism!

But I'd rather buy a paschal candle from a shop than risk its being damaged in the post.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by starbelly:
Exeter hours have been reduced from 10am-5pm Tuesday-Saturday. The Norwich staff were indeed fired by email on Monday evening.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Some current news.

Staff in Norwich fired by e-mail. Apparently other centres have similar experiences

I know some of the folks fired from the SPCK shop in Norwich, including some really long term servant-hearted people. The way this has been done has made me both very sad and very angry.

---

This sort of contract: "The rejected new staff employment contracts included a ban on any pay for overtime" (from the above link) makes my blood boil. Pure exploitation. A Christian organisation should be thoroughly ashamed of itself for contracts like that.
 

---

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :
 
100% agreed, Karl. It's more than just an embarassment...
 

---

Posted by Charles Read (# 3963) on :
 
Indeed we passed SPCK Cambridge today and all is darkness there (at least literally...) with a sign saying it will reopen after 'refitting'.

Later I bought a book on Reinhold Niebuhr - remember members of his congregation in Detroit were sacked by Henry Ford so the factory could be 'retooled'. The link / parallel was too obvious to avoid.

So which pious soul will be the first to invoke I Cor 6 against the former emplyees?
 

---

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Echoes of Wycliffe, Charles Read? Some major differences, of course because of new ownership, but a lot more people involved and I guess some similar issues of principle at stake, as BroJames indicated.
 

---

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Apologies for double post. There is more info on Dave Walker's blog.
 

---

Posted by andreas1984 (# 9313) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:A Christian organisation should be thoroughly ashamed of itself for contracts like that. [/QB]

---

Many people say they are Christians. I doubt if they have asked Christ if he agrees though...
 

---

Posted by Father Gregory (# 310) on :
 
Brewer ...

Forgive the excessive emoticons.

Let's face it, everyone is tiptoeing around this guy because he is a lawyer with substantial resources.

I keep on thinking ... what can I do ... particularly as an Orthodox Christian? I have no involvement with either the man or the shops. I can make no statement other than react to what others report, but when the precise details elude most of us I feel inhibited ... and I am not alone in that.

Even if it can be proved that he is abiding by employment law that wouldn't make his actions morally defensible from a Christian point of view. Perhaps this then is what I CAN say because it is my response as a Christian pastor and not a market commentator or journalist.

Orthodox is as Orthodox DOES. Orthopraxy proves Orthodoxy.

Mr. Brewer has embarrassed us Orthodox. If he were to present himself at my church he would not be allowed to receive Holy Communion.

I sincerely wish he would keep himself in Texas, disengage and never show himself here again.

The thing is ... if he is so "Orthodox" why does he not care what the Orthodox here actually think? Everyone in the Orthodox Church I speak to are as well. One of these to my knowledge has had it out with him, but he seems not to care. Figures.

[edited on request to remove potentially inappropriate comment - JH]

[ 07. February 2008, 21:09: Message edited by: John Holding ]
 

---

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Some current news.

Staff in Norwich fired by e-mail. Apparently other centres have similar experiences

I know some of the folks fired from the SPCK shop in Norwich, including some really long term servant-hearted people. The way this has been done has made me both very sad and very angry.

---

This sort of contract: "The rejected new staff employment contracts included a ban on any pay for overtime" (from the above link) makes my blood boil. Pure exploitation. A Christian organisation should be thoroughly ashamed of itself for contracts like that.

---

The treatment of those who work in the Norwich store, and the associated cafe, has been pretty scandalous. I believe they are unlikely to be allowed to stay in their redundant church-premises once their contract comes round for renewal

Oh, and they now no longer have any charcoal unless they have it centrally ordered specially. Or something. It's not that they're becoming more 'Orthodox', it's that they really are being run into the ground.
 

---

Posted by Leetle Masha (# 8209) on :
 
Who invited them to the U.K.? Or did the Brewers just take a lot of money over and use it to attract people? I read all the stuff about them and can't get to the bottom of it.

Seems to me, though, if some gov't agency similar to the S.E.C., or if some well-disposed lawyers in the U.S. or U.K. could be introduced to what these guys are really doing, they could be run outa town.

Sorry it's happening to you folks over there. I don't know why nobody showed them up for what they are before they even got started. If they tried something like that in Texas, they might not get away with it even there!

M
 

---

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Well said Father G - and I think that your copy of that message on the Dave Walker blog may also have done some good.

I'm going to get involved locally in Norwich. Don't know what can be done yet to repair the damage and obtain justice. We'll see.
 

---

Posted by Father Gregory (# 310) on :
 
They invited themselves. Initially we thought we could work with them but after the Poole debacle (when he eased out our priest and gazumped our bishop) and with the gathering storms over the bookshops we withdrew our burnt fingers smartish.

On the matter of buying up redundant churches for example, he is so incredibly naive he just thinks he can open up and everybody will flock in. Well I'm sorry Mr. Brewer, this ain't Texas!

I think people at SPCK gave him too many second chances because apart from his bid and winding up it didn't look likely that there was a third option. We now hear the rustle of wigs but the damage has been already done.

[ 07. February 2008, 15:12: Message edited by: Father Gregory ]
 

---

Posted by Leetle Masha (# 8209) on :
 
It made me sad to see that on account of the Brewers' actions the Orthodox are no longer welcome in Sheffield.

But for a Texas problem, the only thing is a Texas solution. If you need to get rid of a lawyer, you will need a bigger lawyer. I hope the wigs rustle pro bono, so that at least a little of the "Texas tea" can go into British pockets.

We had some "fast money" types come into our little town here and woo the town council with promises of a "whole new business section", but when they started to employ eminent domain to take over family-owned businesses that had been here for over 100 years, the business owners reared up on their hind legs: they simply got bigger lawyers and the speculators left town.

If the "jurisdiction" these people are "under" is aware, or can be made aware, of what they seem to be up to, perhaps too there might be a "hierarchical" solution....

But as you've so often reminded us, the Orthodox Church can survive such people.

M

[ 07. February 2008, 15:39: Message edited by: Leetle Masha ]
 

---

Posted by J Whitgift (# 1981) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
It made me sad to see that on account of the Brewers' actions the Orthodox are no longer welcome in Sheffield.

---

quote:

---

The Sheffield Diocese has been engaged in a campaign against Orthodox Christians and those who would “further Orthodox mission.” The Diocese hopes to drive SSG out of business because SSG has an Orthodox “aim.”

---

quote:

---

representative of Orthodoxy

---

quote:

---

"We have recently completed new contract consultations throughout the charity. Unfortunately, certain persons have chosen to terminate their employment rather than agree to the new contract. This is a matter of the employees’ personal and individual choice; it is not the action of the charity."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by J Whitgift:
According to Dave Walker's invaluable blog/Save SPCK campaign the former SPCK staff weren't sacked by e-mail. Rather, in the words of a statement issued by the Brewer's:

quote:

---

"We have recently completed new contract consultations throughout the charity. Unfortunately, certain persons have chosen to terminate their employment rather than agree to the new contract. This is a matter of the employees’ personal and individual choice; it is not the action of the charity."

---

So that's all right then.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:
The truth is far from that simple, and the law in this country specifically prevents the absolute use of that argument.

---

It worked for Rupert Murdoch and News International
 

---

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :
 
Very true, ken. Though if memory serves Murdoch wasn't refusing to pay statutory sick pay, was he?

Ian
 

---

Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Liverpool fan:
Has anyone been to the branch in Chester recently? I had many dealings with them when I lived there and wonder what's happening there.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Barnabas62:
The truth is far from that simple, and the law in this country specifically prevents the absolute use of that argument.

---

It worked for Rupert Murdoch and News International

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pax Vobiscum:

We are all glad of the support being given here and on Dave Walker's site. The shops may be finished but justice still needs to be served - so please keep this story in the minds of those who matter.

---

quote:

---

Mr Brewer said the organization had not “sacked” the staff via email.

He said: “We have recently completed new contract consultations throughout the charity. Unfortunately, certain persons have chosen to terminate their employment rather than agree to the new contract. This is a matter of the employees' personal and individual choice; it is not the action of the charity.”

---

quote:

---

An American-based lawyer, Mr Brewer goes on in his e-mail to tell staff to put a notice in the shop door saying the shop will reopen on February 18 and then tells the staff to: “Lock the door and call for instructions on where to put the keys.”

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Charles Read:
If any Shipmates have suggestions as to where Mr Brewer can put his keys, they should contact him directly.

---

 

---

Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :
 
I understand that there are now other shops where staff who have refused to sign the new contracts have been given their notice. It appears that in some cases they are unable to give any information about whether/how the shop will be run when their notice expires.

The slow motion car crash continues...
 

---

Posted by starbelly (# 25) on :
 
News on the Times website today.
 

---

Posted by Plato's cat (# 11158) on :
 
I note with horror that the new owners of SPCK bookshops, according to the Times article, have produced a new video which apparently calls for a new crusade against Islam:

'Among the virtues of St Stephen extolled on a video about the work of the trust named after him, however, are St Stephen's victories in 47 battles against “Muslim Turks”. To mark these victories, he is said to have founded 47 churches. And on the video, the trust's chairman, Mark Brewer, says he intends to follow in the footsteps of St Stephen. The Koran was one of the first things to go from the shops, now renamed after the society that has taken them over.'

PC
 

---

Posted by Johnny S (# 12581) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by BroJames:
It appears that in some cases they are unable to give any information about whether/how the shop will be run when their notice expires.

---

Presumably Andreas would be happy to run about 4 shops at once, but what will happen to the others?

Andreas - have you got any comments on the efforts of the Wrong brothers in their attempt to bring wings to the church in the UK?
 

---

Posted by J Whitgift (# 1981) on :
 
According to Thursday's Church Times, the Westminster/Faith House branch has been closed since 11 April . Link. I haven't been down that way recently, so hadn't noticed the closure. It's a shame, as the manager there had seemed very sure that they'd weather this storm.

This may have some influence on matters though:

quote:

---

In a recent briefing, Mark Brewer, one of the two Texan brothers who head SSG, stated that the charity had experienced cashflow difficulties, but that some of the shops were thriving.

In a recent briefing, Mark Brewer, one of the two Texan brothers who head SSG, stated that the charity had experienced cashflow difficulties, but that some of the shops were thriving. He cited the examples of the Chichester and Durham Cathedral shops.

"These shops’ sales have remained strong throughout the past two financial quarters and have been profitable — thus proving the viability of Christian bookselling in the United Kingdom, and disproving the argument that we Brewers are the problem, he said."

---

On a related note, it looks as though the employment tribunal against SSG is due to go ahead in June. (There are at least 20 claims against SSG according to the report, cited above). It will be interesting to see what the outcome of these claims are.
 

---

Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :
 
The interesting thing is that in other places, the Brewers have claimed that the Durham and Chichester shops are independent operations and no longer part of the SSG -- or for that matter the SPCK -- network. There's a thread on Dave Walker's Cartoon Church site referring to this.

John
 

---

Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :
 
Helpful link.
 

---

Posted by Metapelagius (# 9453) on :
 
Is this the end of the saga?

I am told that the shop in Cambridge was closed towards the end of June. As for what has happened in Worcester ......
 

---

Posted by JonahMan (# 12126) on :
 
Why would they file for bankruptcy in the U.S. when the shops are in the U.K.? Can anyone explain how the U.S. action affects the situation over here?

Jonah
 

---

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
Oh that's appalling news from Worcester.

I guess the Chapter 11 news enables the Brewers to retain control over what's left for the time being. Those making compensation claims have probably seen the implications.

continuing prayers for all concerned.
 

---

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
Oh no. That's unspeakable. May he rest in peace.
 

---

Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :
 
I think the Brewers are under the impression that what happens under US law applies in the UK. There is a great deal of eivdence that they simply do not understand that there are two different countries, with different systems of law involved.

I gather that the petition has now been changed from Chapter 11, which allows a company to continue operating while it restructures, to chapter (4?), which means winding it up. As the company in question is not a US comapny, and as none of its assets are in that country, it seems odd to me that a US court will even accept the application, much less rule on it in any other sense than to say the application is ultra vires.

John

[ 08. July 2008, 01:52: Message edited by: John Holding ]
 

---

Posted by Barnabas62 (# 9110) on :
 
From what I know of the law, that's true, John. But when it comes to recovery of compensation, the effect of getting a ruling in the US nay have some effect on the priorities applied to compensation claims. I have a feeling, for example, that the tax man comes first.

Which is a long way round of saying "I guess its complicated!" It's hard on the UK claimants isn't it? It costs money to make your case, you can't be sure how the letter of the law may apply, and the Brewers may not have any money left anyway. Plus you're probably skint. Having lost your job and all that.

A very good friend of ours is caught up in this. Recently widowed as well. My feelings can be imagined.
 

---

Posted by chiltern_hundred (# 13659) on :
 
FYI, this whole sorry story has now made it into today's issue of "Private Eye"
 

---

Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :
 
Another informative blog while Dave W attends to some Bishops somewhere.
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
Bristol branch closed a week ago.
 

---

Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 
In better news, the plans to re-open a Christian bookshop where the Cardiff SPCK was seem to be proceeding. When I cycled past the other day the sign outside had been repainted to say 'Churches Together Bookshop' and there was a new notice saying when it was opening but I couldn't read the details.

Carys
 

---

Posted by Albertus (# 13356) on :
 
I think it's due to open on 22 July.
 

---

Posted by Louise (# 30) on :
 
The Brewers have now gone after Dave Walker with legal threats.

L.
 

---

Posted by Rev per Minute (# 69) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
I think it's due to open on 22 July.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Louise:
The Brewers have now gone after Dave Walker with legal threats.

---

I'm really disgusted by that. They really are showing their Christian credentials.
 

---

Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rev per Minute:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
I think it's due to open on 22 July.

---

As indeed it has - I went in at lunchtime. They are still restocking but (a) they're taking orders and (b) the second-hand sales have returned.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Louise:
The Brewers have now gone after Dave Walker with legal threats.

L.

---

Words escape me.

(But for Dave )
 

---

Posted by Louise (# 30) on :
 
The posts are still available in googlecache, btw.
L.
 

---

Posted by Fool on Hill (# 12183) on :
 
What I'd like to do (but can't) is post a poll (probably in Hell) - Brewer Bros or Dave Walker - just to test opinion.
 

---

Posted by Louise (# 30) on :
 
Naah, you need a bit more competition there- how about a choice of Brewer Brothers, Satan and Gordon Brown?

L.
 

---

Posted by Louise (# 30) on :
 
Sorry to double post, the post I linked to earlier on Dave Walker's blog concerning the legal threats by the Brewers has now been taken down itself, presumably for legal reasons.

I wont link directly in case that exposes the Ship in anyway, but I will note that such tactics don't work very well in this day and age, as the search

cease desist site:http://www.cartoonchurch.com/

on Google, brings up the googlecache, and the post is there. Good luck to the Brewers taking that down.

L.

PS. hosts, if that's not indirect enough then please delete as necessary.
 

---

Posted by Yam-uk (# 12791) on :
 
I've just found this news on yet another spck blog. I wonder what the consequences of a "motion to dismiss the liquidation of SSG" would be? Perhaps some of our American friends could help here...
 

---

Posted by Laura (# 10) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Louise:
Sorry to double post, the post I linked to earlier on Dave Walker's blog concerning the legal threats by the Brewers has now been taken down itself, presumably for legal reasons.

I wont link directly in case that exposes the Ship in anyway, but I will note that such tactics don't work very well in this day and age, as the search

cease desist site:http://www.cartoonchurch.com/

on Google, brings up the googlecache, and the post is there. Good luck to the Brewers taking that down.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Yam-uk:
I've just found this news on yet another spck blog. I wonder what the consequences of a "motion to dismiss the liquidation of SSG" would be? Perhaps some of our American friends could help here...

---

I don't specialize in Bankruptcy law, but I'm pretty sure a motion to dismiss the liquidation is a motion to dismiss the bankruptcy petition itself. If granted, it would mean that the thing gets tossed out of court and they have to think of something else. I'm confused about why a UK entity would be able to file for BR anyway, unless they're incorporated in the US.

[ 23. July 2008, 17:57: Message edited by: Laura ]
 

---

Posted by John Holding (# 158) on :
 
Actually, there is some mystery about why the Brewers filed for bankruptcy in the US in the first place, for precisely that reason. It appears that they don't realize that the US and England (in this case, because it's English not British law in question, I think) are two different countries and that you can't just do everything in the US and hope it applies.

Either that, or they think the Texas (?) court in question is so stupid that it will do something, and do so in such a way that the very many English creditors (unpaid staff, unpaid suppliers and so on) have no chance to register their claims or be heard in court.

John
 

---

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :
 
This whole saga doesn't get any less bizarre, does it?

The business of the threats of action against blogger comments is very reminiscent of the late Robert Maxwell's behaviour. Not a good omen.
 

---

Posted by innocent(ish) (# 12691) on :
 
The Cartoon Blog has now disappeared completely - all very concerning.
 

---

Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by innocent(ish):
The Cartoon Blog has now disappeared completely - all very concerning.

---

I can't even open the cartoons on Dave's Lambeth site. I wish I could blame the Brewers for that too.
 

---

Posted by Richard Collins (# 11515) on :
 
It appears that the solidarity is growing. Many bloggers are taking up the mantel and are posting whole sections of Dave's blog via googlecache in order to keep the posts on the web.

Also, the most interesting development is well covered here . Allegedly (hosts, please check that this is okay) evidence suggests that the Brewer's are attempting to take a UK registered company/charity into bankruptcy in the US, under US law which, if successful, would deny UK tribunal claimants (and creditors) compensation. It also appears that Mark Brewer is acting as legal counsel in the bankruptcy case and, as such, is entitled to a first share of monies recovered from the bankrupt business. However, it also appears that a petition has been filed with the Texas courts pointing these anomalies out and that the date of this petition coincides with the 'Cease and Desist' order served on Dave W. Could it be that a certain Texan lawyer was concerned that Dave would publish the details of this petition?

Inquiring minds, want to know
 

---

Posted by rosamundi (# 2495) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by innocent(ish):
The Cartoon Blog has now disappeared completely - all very concerning.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Richard Collins:
Also, the most interesting development is well covered [here]. Allegedly (hosts, please check that this is okay) evidence suggests that the Brewer's are attempting to take a UK registered company/charity into bankruptcy in the US, under US law which, if successful, would deny UK tribunal claimants (and creditors) compensation.

---

I'm glad that neither you nor the blogger you posted to is my lawyer, Richard, as the post you link to contains some massive and obvious inaccuracies with regard to the nature of liability for a charitable company registered in the UK. I'm glad you are not my trade union either, as you are both missing something around the capacity for employees with a claim against a company which is no longer solvent in the UK to seek compensation under a National Insurance scheme. I'm incredibly glad that I am absolutely no-one's legal adviser, trade union, or insolvency practitioner. There are good reasons for paying trained people to do these jobs.

'frin
 

---

Posted by Richard Collins (# 11515) on :
 
[manuel]'kay! I no' nuthing'[/manuel]

With apologies to Fawlty Towers!
 

---

Posted by Laura (# 10) on :
 
Well, look, IANABRL, but -- bankruptcy filing in the US is limited to US debtors. US Bankruptcy courts only have jurisdiction to hear matters arising under US law. So they have to have at least some sort of US presence. I don't think the Bankruptcy Court are likely to look kindly on an attempt to get out of debts and obligations that are all in the UK and none at all in the US.

What I don't know is what the effect on this is of purchase by a US company. If all assets and debts are transferred, then I suppose theoretically you could file for US bankruptcy, but then the US bankruptcy court would have to consider the claims of all the UK debtors as well.
 

---

Posted by Fool on Hill (# 12183) on :
 
Just to note that any attempt to avoid valid UK liabilities by instituting invalid US proceedings, or to achieve priority status for one's own claims through invalid proceedings, would potentially be a serious matter under UK law (And I hope the Charity Commission are watching carefully).

I don't want to prejudge any of these issues - but just to point out the implications if they resolve in a particular direction.
 

---

Posted by Laura (# 10) on :
 
Of course, the shops are owned by a US charity now, so that gets to be a more arcane issue of the extraterritorial reach of UK debtors to a company operating in the UK. At least in the US, any entity operating within the US and within a given state may be haled into court over civil or criminal wrongs that they allegedly did in the US. I assume we got that idea from our Anglo legal brethren, so I'm sure UK law has similar provisions.
 

---

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
Last year the Brewers looked very much as if they were hardline Orthodox who apparently aimed to eliminate all Christian churches other than their own (not a useful character flaw in someone trying to run a chain of Anglican bookshops) and wanted to take over SPCK bookshops to help them do it.

Or so it seemed - now they look much more boring than that. Recent developments make them seem like old-fashioned asset-strippers, taking over failing businesses, cutting wages, putting up hours, and driving out trade unions, to cut costs until they manage to sell the buildings. Underhanded union busters, though on a small scale. As if the whole aim of the exercise was to get their nads on the money to be gained by selling the shops, some of which are in very upmarket locations in tourist-trap towns. They must be gutted that the property price crash happened when it did.

Almost disappointing. Not mad beardy weirdoes at all. Just another bunch of estate agents.
 

---

Posted by Fool on Hill (# 12183) on :
 
Laura

There seems to be some doubt about the identity of the various bodies involved.

A US organisation recognised as a charity in the US is not necessarily a charity in the UK.

The legal standing of an operating entity in the UK is decided by UK law, I think.

An attempt to avoid UK debts by migrating a business ('charity') to the US would be a serious matter in UK law, and might itself jeopardise the charitable status of the UK operation.
 

---

Posted by Laura (# 10) on :
 
I totally hear you -- I'm just wittering away out loud the way lawyers do when trying to figure out how something outside of their specialty works. But at the very least, the UK creditors ought to be able to hold up the sale/dispersal of any and all UK assets to satisfy claims awarded under a UK tribunal - real estate, bank accounts, fixtures, whatever. Nothing that happens in the US could have anything to do with that. A US charity can file for bankruptcy but US courts have no jurisdiction over in the UK over UK property, nor would any judge ever say so.
 

---

Posted by Nightlamp (# 266) on :
 
I believe there is a condition put on some of the freehold property that they have to remain Christian Bookshops for a certain number of years before being sold.
 

---

Posted by Richard Collins (# 11515) on :
 
There is an update to the post I linked to above.

I'm not a lawyer but it certainly seems that 'something is rotten in the State of Denmark...'
 

---

Posted by CaDan (# 8638) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on Hill:
Laura

There seems to be some doubt about the identity of the various bodies involved.

A US organisation recognised as a charity in the US is not necessarily a charity in the UK.

The legal standing of an operating entity in the UK is decided by UK law, I think.

An attempt to avoid UK debts by migrating a business ('charity') to the US would be a serious matter in UK law, and might itself jeopardise the charitable status of the UK operation.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by innocent(ish):
CaDan, that has to be some kind of record, joined Oct 2004, first post July 2008!

---

Long time lurker, first time poster!
 

---

Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :
 
Sig test
 

---

Posted by Duck (# 10181) on :
 
This blog has published information on the Dave Walker affair, and like several others who have done so has received legal threats from Mark Brewer. Unlike most, it has published the correspondence. I would very much suggest reading for yourself, it really is quite bizarre.

(I've blogged on this also, no threatening letters for me as yet).
 

---

Posted by Laura (# 10) on :
 
I'm confused about the way the Dave Walker support facebook group and other places are referring to a "cease and desist order" that they desire to have "lifted". There is, as I understand it, a cease and desist request letter to which some have capitulated. That will never be "lifted" because there's nothing to lift. A letter is just a letter, it isn't an order.

Another option is to continue posting about the matter and take the very small risk that the Brewers would actually succeed in getting the blogs shut down. They have, AIUI, no leg to stand on, legally.
 

---

Posted by Fool on Hill (# 12183) on :
 
Laura

I think part of the issue is that the letter purports to issue legal threats - and it has been written by a lawyer. It takes time and good advice to digest such a thing. Elizaphanian (linked by Duck) has published the kind of thing we're looking at, and has been able to take advice.

Dave Walker has been resident at the Lambeth Conference, with other things on his mind than dealing immediately with such threats.

There is a threat, for example, to obtain an injunction. Now I think that it would be fairly difficult to get an injunction from any judge who looked at the material - they'd be more likely to smile at the odd cartoon. And there is the question of what the costs of legal proceedings would be, and whether they are realistically recoverable from a US citizen.

And also a potential threat to Dave to disclose private correspondence and information received in trust and confidence (which might come down the line in justifying comments).

So that is why some of us support Dave, who has in my view done nothing wrong he should not be taking the flak from this alone - his reporting and care with this story is an example to us all.

Ok there is some confused terminology about a letter - a letter can't be lifted, but a threat can.
 

---

Posted by Ricardus (# 8757) on :
 
Wow. Have the Brewers gone totally potty? The main result of the "cease and desist" letter is that now, instead of reading Dave's fairly cautious blog, I'm reading all the hardcore "bring-'em-on" types whose allegations against the Brewers go further than anything Dave ever said.

e.g. Ministry of Truth, who speculates that the Brewers are fraudulently claiming bankruptcy in the United States in order to avoid their alleged personal liabilities for the charity's debts.
 

---

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laura:
I'm confused about the way the Dave Walker support facebook group and other places are referring to a "cease and desist order" that they desire to have "lifted". There is, as I understand it, a cease and desist request letter to which some have capitulated. That will never be "lifted" because there's nothing to lift. A letter is just a letter, it isn't an order.

---

Because, unfortunately, English law on libel is unforgiving. So some - not all - ISPs have got into the habit of removing material when convincingly challenged, and restoring it again when the challenge is withdrawn, disproved, or not followed up.

That's probably an over-reaction but it is an understandable one

Americans tend to behave similarly when challenged over intellectual property laws.

If I as the system manager of an internet server (well, as one of half a dozen system managers of a hundreds or so servers) receive a credible threat of legal action it can be in my interest to take down a page pretty promptly. Because if I don't, and it is later found to be libelous or it break copyright or whatever then it becomes my fault and I can get sued - or rather the institution I work for can, and we have more money to spend on lawyers than most of our students do so someone seeking damages is more likely to go for us.

The situation is even worse if someone says that you have child pornography on your website. You have very little option but to take down a page without investigating the accusation because the screwed-up nature of the law means that you might be breaking the law by trying to work out whether or not the item in question is illegal

So very often the safest thing to do is take down the site first, and ask questions afterwards.

Different legal systems have different quirks and its very hard to know where you are. In general we are much harsher on libel and defamation than the Americans, but they come down harder on copyright and terrorism. The Americans have a slightly looser regime on pornography (though not on child pornography), the British a far more libertarian attitude to gambling.

Libel can be harsh here, because there is no legal aid and the courts can give punitive damages. Basically its a system for rich people to a take money from poor people ("not unlike the rest of the legal system" I hear my inner anarchist say). If you aren't a libel lawyer, and haven't got the time or the money to talk to one, it can make sense to be vary cautious.

I don't know what we would do if we got a letter purporting to be from an American lawyer claiming that one of our staff or students had published libel on our webservers. It would depend o the situation, and the decision wouldn't be up to me alone. But if there seemed to be a real problem on the face of it we would probably pull the page first and talk to our lawyers afterwards.

This is not a hypothetical situation. In my job I have often received complaints about copyright violations, and sometimes complaints about spam. We've had the police talk to us about email and websites of people accused of crimes, or the victims of crimes (some of them very serious). We have received complaints about defamation (in one case from the BNP, which wasn't fun). We've got policies about it and we employ lawyers.

Dave, as far as I know, has no legal department. He also received the letter shortly before the Lambeth Conference which I suspect may be a big deal for him both personally and professionally. He might well have been simply too busy to pay much attention to the Brewer's bullying (which might well be why the accusations were made at this time).

Maybe it was an over-reaction to take down the entire thread from the website, but if it was it was an entirely understandable one. And one that many - perhaps most - ISPs and professional web managers would have made.
 

---

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Duck:
This blog has published information on the Dave Walker affair, and like several others who have done so has received legal threats from Mark Brewer. Unlike most, it has published the correspondence. I would very much suggest reading for yourself, it really is quite bizarre.

---

If that is really what Mr Brewer is saying, then he's lost it. Show those letters to a court and they are going to be groaning inwardly. They look like the rantings of a looney.

quote:

---

(I've blogged on this also, no threatening letters for me as yet).

---

quote:

---

Short extracts from letter at elizaphanian.blogspot.com purporting to be from Mark Brewer:
Neither English nor American law permits you to engage in what you term "fair comment" with respect to a private company, nor with respect to a private individual - namely, me. Obviously the law does not allow one to cloak his conduct with such sophistry and then go about defaming someone.

---

quote:

---

Libel with malice, a malignancy of heart, is intolerable in civilized societies.

---

quote:

---

Mr. Walker is in no way a victim of anything done or not done, said or not said by me. I have no idea what you are on about in saying such a thing. I cannot fathom your judgmental presumptiveness in telling me to apologize to him.

---

quote:

---

... I will seek redress in the courts of the country where I live - the United States. As your solicitor will have told you, you are subject to jurisdiction here as you knowingly libeled me on the worldwide web, you know me to be a resident of the USA and you know and intend to injure me where I live in the USA.
[...]
Your solicitor also will have told you that you are subject to service of process for a suit in the United States under the Hague Convention. You will then have to answer for your conduct in the venue where you intentionally caused me harm. I hope you understand this...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laura:

What I mean is, a "cease and desist letter" is not the same as a "cease and desist order". A letter is a letter -- it has no legal import of any kind. An "order" comes from a court and has legal weight.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laura:
Sorry, ken, you're misunderstanding me. What I mean is, a "cease and desist letter" is not the same as a "cease and desist order". A letter is a letter -- it has no legal import of any kind. An "order"comes from a court and has legal weight.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nightlamp:
The Brewers are to be chucked out of Durham Cathedral ( see here and here)

---

(and to the Brewers!)
 

---

Posted by Fool on Hill (# 12183) on :
 
Let's hope that this leads to a renaissance of excellent (and profitable) Christian Bookselling in Durham, security of employment for staff and a chance for those of us who care about things to rejoice in hope.
 

---

Posted by Nightlamp (# 266) on :
 
Further developments found here and here.

[replaced censor affected link with a bitly URL]

[ 10. May 2009, 21:11: Message edited by: frin ]
 

---

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
Nightlamp, the first link got censored, I suspect it included the word c h u r c h, which is currently not allowed!
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
That's right - just replace the asterisks with the missing letters.

When will they cease this childish censoring?
 

---

Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :
 
Further developments to be found here.
 

---

Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :
 
And yet further developments to be found here as one of the SSG directors files for "Chapter 13 Personal Reorganization".
 

---

Posted by Laurie17 (# 14889) on :
 
I miss SPCK as both shops and publisher.


Iregret what its demise seem to indicate about what we are losing from English Christianity as extremeists push more moderate believers out, with their tolerance and rational commitment....
 

---

Posted by Apothecary (# 3886) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laurie17:
I miss SPCK as both shops and publisher.


Iregret what its demise seem to indicate about what we are losing from English Christianity as extremeists push more moderate believers out, with their tolerance and rational commitment....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lilly Rose:
Although the SPCK shops have ceased to exist as we knew and loved them, there are lots of other Christian bookshops.

There may not be one in every town, but there are independant Christian Bookshops spread over the country as well as the Wesley Owen chain.

As Apothecary says, SPCK Publishing is still going strong and their books should be available either in stock or by special order, from any Christian bookshop.

---

And mail order using abebooks rather than A****n will help keep an independent in business.
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
The advantage of going to Wesley Owen as opposed to ordering of the net is that you can see inside a book to check that it is worthwhile.

Also, Wesley Owen are keen to pick up more business and are not stocking a wider variety of authors. Hitherto, I didn't recognise any of the names of the authors they stocked.

Our local branch as a sort of hardcore theology section at the back.
 

---

Posted by fingerdoughnut (# 13822) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

Our local branch as a sort of hardcore theology section at the back.

---

Ha! At Spring Harvest this year WO's so-called 'theology section' contained Benny Hinn and TD Jakes
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
Well, that's Spring Harvest for you. You might find a better selection at Greenbelt at the end of this month.
 

---

Posted by Lilly Rose (# 13826) on :
 
Leo,

I'm wondering if there's a typo in your post, as it doesn't quite make sense.

You say 'Wesley Owen ........ are not stocking a wider variety of authors'

Should that read 'now' instead of 'not'? so that it says 'Wesley Owen ........ are now stocking a wider variety of authors'?
 

---

Posted by J Whitgift (# 1981) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lilly Rose:
Leo,

I'm wondering if there's a typo in your post, as it doesn't quite make sense.

You say 'Wesley Owen ........ are not stocking a wider variety of authors'

Should that read 'now' instead of 'not'? so that it says 'Wesley Owen ........ are now stocking a wider variety of authors'?

---

quote:

---

At Spring Harvest this year WO's so-called 'theology section' contained Benny Hinn and TD Jakes

---

The loss of SPCK was a serious blow and WO hardly fills the gap! My local branch seems to concentrate far more of Christian self-help books and copies of the KJV.

Living in London I am lucky enough to have Church House Bookshop and Harchards/Mowbray's in easy reach. However, the latter has become little more than an extended 'Mind/Body/Spirit' section of the store. SPCK also did academic theology and secondhand books, both of which are lacking in CHBp & Harchards/Mowbray's.
 

---

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by J Whitgift:
Living in London I am lucky enough to have Church House Bookshop and Harchards/Mowbray's in easy reach. However, the latter has become little more than an extended 'Mind/Body/Spirit' section of the store.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by J Whitgift:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lilly Rose:
Leo,

I'm wondering if there's a typo in your post, as it doesn't quite make sense.

You say 'Wesley Owen ........ are not stocking a wider variety of authors'

Should that read 'now' instead of 'not'? so that it says 'Wesley Owen ........ are now stocking a wider variety of authors'?

---

I serverly doubt that Wesley Owen are stocking a good selection of academic theology. I rather suspect, however, that the situation is as fingerdoughnut described it

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lilly Rose:
All Christian bookshops will have restrictions of size and budget and so can't stock everything, but the independants should be able to get anything that's in print if it's ordered.

Does anyone know if Wesley Owen can get special orders for customers or are they tied in to central buying?

---

I know that St Andrew's Book Shops will special order.

I am blessed with having access to Blackwells in Oxford. They have a real accademic section and second hand books in the attic.
 

---

Posted by Loveheart (# 12249) on :
 
I've been told Wesley Owen Cambridge will do special orders, but I've not tried it myself...

(edited to correct typo)

[ 16. August 2009, 06:05: Message edited by: Loveheart ]
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Any bookshop will do special orders. If they get a lot of special orders in a particular area they may well start stocking some related books.

Jengie
 

---

Posted by pete173 (# 4622) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by fingerdoughnut:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

Our local branch as a sort of hardcore theology section at the back.

---

Ha! At Spring Harvest this year WO's so-called 'theology section' contained Benny Hinn and TD Jakes

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Loveheart:
I've been told Wesley Owen Cambridge will do special orders, but I've not tried it myself...

(edited to correct typo)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Metapelagius:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Loveheart:
I've been told Wesley Owen Cambridge will do special orders, but I've not tried it myself...

(edited to correct typo)

---

You may have noted, too, that the very helpful lady who was at the SPCK shop in Cambridge for many years is now working down the road at Wesley Owen, and will doubtless have brought a good deal of expertise with her.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by pete173:

quote:

---

Originally posted by fingerdoughnut:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

Our local branch as a sort of hardcore theology section at the back.

---

Ha! At Spring Harvest this year WO's so-called 'theology section' contained Benny Hinn and TD Jakes

---

Yeah, I spent my time wandering through the bookstall attempting to hide the more nutty ones...

---

Crikey Pete173, in your position couldn't you have done a bit better than that? You know - whip of cords, overturn their tables, scatter the money from their tills...
 

---

Posted by Custard. (# 5402) on :
 
In Chester, the former SPCK shop (deserted) has a poster in the window from the former manager telling people to go to Wesley Owen round the corner because he's the manager there now.

Wesley Owen are owned by International Bible Society. Most of their shops seem to roughly follow market pressures - they'll stock what people want to buy and order anything within reason. Some of the managers (including my local one) seem to exercise a good deal of discernment and avoid most of the wackier stuff. But sadly not all...

If you want a shop that stocks the reading list for a university course, try a university bookshop.
 

---

Posted by Liverpool fan (# 11424) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Custard.:
In Chester, the former SPCK shop (deserted) has a poster in the window from the former manager telling people to go to Wesley Owen round the corner because he's the manager there now.

---

quote:

---

I am blessed with having access to Blackwells in Oxford.

---

Blackwells theology section
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by fingerdoughnut:

quote:

---

Originally posted by pete173:

quote:

---

Originally posted by fingerdoughnut:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

Our local branch as a sort of hardcore theology section at the back.

---

Ha! At Spring Harvest this year WO's so-called 'theology section' contained Benny Hinn and TD Jakes

---

Yeah, I spent my time wandering through the bookstall attempting to hide the more nutty ones...

---

Crikey Pete173, in your position couldn't you have done a bit better than that? You know - whip of cords, overturn their tables, scatter the money from their tills...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
Careful - remember he is C of E. In our church, we have to have several committees to discuss this sort of action.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by fingerdoughnut:

quote:

---

Originally posted by pete173:

quote:

---

Originally posted by fingerdoughnut:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

Our local branch as a sort of hardcore theology section at the back.

---

Ha! At Spring Harvest this year WO's so-called 'theology section' contained Benny Hinn and TD Jakes

---

Yeah, I spent my time wandering through the bookstall attempting to hide the more nutty ones...

---

Crikey Pete173, in your position couldn't you have done a bit better than that? You know - whip of cords, overturn their tables, scatter the money from their tills...

---

Careful - remember he is C of E. In our church, we have to have several committees to discuss this sort of action.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by pete173:
Yeah, I spent my time wandering through the bookstall attempting to hide the more nutty ones...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Custard.:
In Chester, the former SPCK shop (deserted)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mr Clingford:
Sacked workers win payout but will they actually get any of this money?

---

quote:

---

Staff sacked from the former SPCK bookshops are receiving their first compensation payments. They will each receive 65 per cent of the agreed amount by the end of the month, and the remainder within six months.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mr Clingford:
Sacked workers win payout but will they actually get any of this money?

---

According to the Church Times they will:

quote:

---

Staff sacked from the former SPCK bookshops are receiving their first compensation payments. They will each receive 65 per cent of the agreed amount by the end of the month, and the remainder within six months.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angus McDangley:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Custard.:
In Chester, the former SPCK shop (deserted)

---

Possibly the saddest sentence I've ever read on the Ship. I loved that shop. It had a wonderful second hand section upstairs. You could browse in there for hours and find the most amazing treasure.

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