quote:

---

After some moments of silent adoration, the following verse shall be sung very softly, all devoutly kneeling:

All Thee we adore, O hidden Splendour, Thee,
Who in Thy Sacrament dost deign to be;
We worship Thee beneath this earthly veil,
And here Thy Presence we devoutly hail.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
Secondly, after the words of 'consecration or transubstantiation' it says this:

quote:

---

After some moments of silent adoration, the following verse shall be sung very softly, all devoutly kneeling:

All Thee we adore, O hidden Splendour, Thee,
Who in Thy Sacrament dost deign to be;
We worship Thee beneath this earthly veil,
And here Thy Presence we devoutly hail.

---

Now, I think thats so nice and it would be nice to do say at Corpus Christi, but not at every Mass - even at weekdays?

---

quote:

---

Most annoying to me is the fuzzy new-agery that creeps around the edges of this ordo.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
Yes djo I remeber reading something, but it is hard to dig stuff out here, I find.

The addition to the Eucharistic Prayer isn't something entirely new to me. I went to Mass in a church round Christmas time and as the Mystery of Faith they sang 'O come let us adore him' three times.

---

It's quite a common thing in the Catholic Church to do at Christmas... it's not totally in keeping with what Rome says but we're not in Rome so...


Max.
 

---

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
"Word of the Father, living on this altar, o come let us adore him..." is how it went at our church in Christmastide.

Thurible
 

---

Posted by Max. (# 5846) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thurible:
"Word of the Father, living on this altar, o come let us adore him..." is how it went at our church in Christmastide.

Thurible

---

We had:

"O Come Let us adore him (x3)
For he alone is worthy (x3)
We'll give him all the glory (x3)"

Lengthy but... it was Christmas

I have no idea what I'm going to do at Grizzly Martyrs this year, it's a very different sort of parish.


Max.
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
Sorry, but it is bonkers and typical of those schismatics who founded their own churches - the do the basic English Missal rite and add their own private devotions (like singing Adeste fidelis) and then expect everyone to like their own tastes.

Also, of course, it is old-fashioned - the and thou etc.
 

---

Posted by Brian M (# 11865) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
Sorry, but it is bonkers and typical of those schismatics who founded their own churches -

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brian M:
I know, Leo! I mean, they trace their apostolic succession from Rome, but they broke from Rome! And their liturgical texts are based on the old Missale Romanum, but with radical changes to the Canon! And they use Tudor English! What sort of lunatics would do such a thing?

---

*snort*
 

---

Posted by Ecclesiastical Flip-flop (# 10745) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Max.:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thurible:
"Word of the Father, living on this altar, o come let us adore him..." is how it went at our church in Christmastide.

Thurible

---

We had:

"O Come Let us adore him (x3)
For he alone is worthy (x3)
We'll give him all the glory (x3)"

Lengthy but... it was Christmas

I have no idea what I'm going to do at Grizzly Martyrs this year, it's a very different sort of parish.


Max.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brian M:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
Sorry, but it is bonkers and typical of those schismatics who founded their own churches -

---

I know, Leo! I mean, they trace their apostolic succession from Rome, but they broke from Rome! And their liturgical texts are based on the old Missale Romanum, but with radical changes to the Canon! And they use Tudor English! What sort of lunatics would do such a thing?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brian M:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
Sorry, but it is bonkers and typical of those schismatics who founded their own churches -

---

I know, Leo! I mean, they trace their apostolic succession from Rome, but they broke from Rome! And their liturgical texts are based on the old Missale Romanum, but with radical changes to the Canon! And they use Tudor English! What sort of lunatics would do such a thing?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brian M:
What sort of lunatics would do such a thing?

---

The 'sort of lunatics' who espouse heterodox doctrines

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:
Which Liberal Catholic Church are we talking about? This one? or this one?

The first appears to have only one bishop in the UK, the erstwhile (Roman) Catholic theologian Elizabeth Stuart. The other has several.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:

The first appears to have only one bishop in the UK, the erstwhile (Roman) Catholic theologian Elizabeth Stuart. The other has several.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:
Which Liberal Catholic Church are we talking about? This one? or this one?

The first appears to have only one bishop in the UK, the erstwhile (Roman) Catholic theologian Elizabeth Stuart. The other has several.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:
Which Liberal Catholic Church are we talking about? This one? or this one?

The first appears to have only one bishop in the UK, the erstwhile (Roman) Catholic theologian Elizabeth Stuart. The other has several.

---

Liz Stuart is a bishop in the 'Open Episcopal church'. They have a loony rite too called 'The Matthew'.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:
Which Liberal Catholic Church are we talking about? This one? or this one?

The first appears to have only one bishop in the UK, the erstwhile (Roman) Catholic theologian Elizabeth Stuart. The other has several.

---

Liz Stuart is a bishop in the 'Open Episcopal church'. They have a loony rite too called 'The Matthew'.

---

According to the second link in my post she is 'Regionary bishop for the UK' (why not 'regional'?) in the 'Liberal Catholic Church International'.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
Liz Stuart is a bishop in the 'Open Episcopal church'. They have a loony rite too called 'The Matthew'.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
Well, I know someone whom she ordained - they hired the Crematorium on a Sunday afternoon.

---

Must have been a short ministry!
 

---

Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
Yes, that sounds right because they both have origins in this 'Matthew' person. The Open Episcopals are theologically more orthodox though morally more heterodox.

---

quote:

---

The 'sort of lunatics' who espouse heterodox doctrines, i.e. they face the rising sun to pray,

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:
Which Liberal Catholic Church are we talking about? This one? or this one?

The first appears to have only one bishop in the UK, the erstwhile (Roman) Catholic theologian Elizabeth Stuart. The other has several.

---

Given the notoriously fissile nature of such churches, we may very well be talking about both...

Pace DJ_O above, both wings of the LCC seem to position themselves very much as inheritors of the Old Catholic tradition.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brian M:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
Liz Stuart is a bishop in the 'Open Episcopal church'. They have a loony rite too called 'The Matthew'.

---

Do you mean this Missal edited by ++Arnold Harris Matthew? It seems fairly benign as Old Catholic rites go. I've seen parts of it used for ordination to minor orders by an Old Catholic bishop in Philadelphia, and the rites were slightly less "loony" than much of what is on offer in local conventicles these days.

---

quote:

---

She needed a hairdrier after the anointing and muslims received communion.

---

Are you pleased at these two happenings, leo, or disgusted?
 

---

Posted by northender (# 9374) on :
 
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. May one who spent 40 years in the Liberal Catholic Church
correct some misconceptions that have appeared in this thread?

There is the original LCC with Bishop Wedgwood as first Presiding Bishop, and there have been some groups who have left. The reasons for their leaving are of little import now as they all seem to accept ordination of women, which the original LCC rejects.

The online liturgy is from one of those other groups and has some peculiarities of its own. I can only comment on the authorised Liturgy of the original LCC. That was a strange reference to Eastern origins. The Preface to the first edition of The Liturgy reads: The movement from which the LCC originated used the Roman liturgy, but the complete reorganisation of the movement upon its present basis of the widest freedom involved a correspondingly drastic revision of the liturgy. The Roman liturgy was chosen as the basis for that revision....we were disappointed to find the Greek liturgy quite unsuitable for use in our work of revision.

There are two forms of "The Celebration of the Holy Eucharist commonly called the Mass", one being a shorter version of the other with some material of its own.

The Asperges is used at every celebration.

There is no need for prayers of the faithful as
secular authority, the parish, wider church, Presiding and local bishops, the sick and special needs, the departed, are all mentioned in The Canon.

"Thee we adore" and "O come all ye faithful" are sung after the consecration. I understand the reason for this, but it has always seemed strange to me to sing the Adeste all year round, even if a different tune is used outside of Christmas and Epiphany seasons.

The ceremonial is the same everywhere, the Church "asks of its members not the profession of a common belief but their willingness to worship corporately through a common ritual". (Statement of Principles). As part of thir Oath of Canonical Obedience, clergy give their agreement to that Statement of Principles and a Summary of Doctrine. These are not binding on the laity.

With reference to its Old Catholic origins. the Statement says "it does so to indicate the source of its orders and its organic unity with the historical church", and "the LCC has carefully preserved this succession of orders".

The founding bishops were Theosophists, there are probably still a majority of members of that persuasion. I do not know, and never enquired when I was a priest. I was never a member of the TS, never asked to join, never accepted its peculiar teachings. The books of Bishop Leadbeater were required reading for the LC Institute of Studies. Some treat them as Gospel. I thought them fanciful and said so tactfully. Respect for the opinions of others is a hallmark of Liberal Catholicism. The only reference to (small "t") theosophy in The Statement is to the dictionary definition of experiential religion, and the basic unity of all faiths.

(sometime) Fr Laurence
 

---

Posted by Brian M (# 11865) on :
 
Thanks very much for that very interesting short history, Fr. Laurence. So, given your skepticism toward Theosophy, did your worship practices tend more in a conservative Old Catholic manner--perhaps the ++Mathew missal? Was that accepted by your colleagues?
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:

quote:

---

She needed a hairdrier after the anointing and muslims received communion.

---

Are you pleased at these two happenings, leo, or disgusted?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by northender:


There are two forms of "The Celebration of the Holy Eucharist commonly called the Mass", one being a shorter version of the other with some material of its own.

The Asperges is used at every celebration.

There is no need for prayers of the faithful as
secular authority, the parish, wider church, Presiding and local bishops, the sick and special needs, the departed, are all mentioned in The Canon.

"Thee we adore" and "O come all ye faithful" are sung after the consecration....I understand the reason for this, but it has always seemed strange to me to sing the Adeste all year round, even if a different tune is used outside of Christmas and Epiphany seasons.

The ceremonial is the same everywhere, the Church "asks of its members not the profession of a common belief but their willingness to worship corporately through a common ritual". ...

(sometime) Fr Laurence

---

Oh, Fr Laurence (that was) thank you for a very helpful post. Its fantastic here when we get guys like you from different churches who can explain.

As a matter of interest what other tunes did u use for Adeste Fidelis?

Now you wrote:
"asks of its members not the profession of a common belief but their willingness to worship corporately through a common ritual".

I think thats such a good principle.

You say you belonged to the original Liberal Catholic Church group - can you point to there online presence? Where can one go to experience there liturgy today?
 

---

Posted by northender (# 9374) on :
 
for Brian M-- there is strict conformity to the authorised Liturgy and ceremonial. You do not get to pick and choose.

for Laetare--
try
http://liberalcatholic.tripod.com

Your nearest church should be All Saints, Putney.

The Adeste tune was by Dr Bruce Gordon Kingsley way back in the thirties. I do not know if it has been published apart from the authorised "Musical Supplement to the Liturgy".

Laurence Fr
 

---

Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on :
 
Many thanks for your wise, hilariously witty and thoroughly insightful posts, northender/(sometime) Father Laurence.

I remember, in the 1980s and 90s, there was a Co-Masonic temple near Central Station in Sydney. I believe that also had associations with Theosophy.

The influence of Theosophy in Australia in the 1920s and 30s is absolutely fascinating. Definitely our 'alternative pre-Nimbin' side.
 

---

Posted by northender (# 9374) on :
 
Co-Masonry is a whole other kettle of nutmeat, not appropriate to this forum. Suffice to say that HQ in Paris always remained in the tradition of Grand Orient atheistic masonry. Annie Besant carried it to the English speaking world and a lot of theosophists joined.

The original St Albans Liberal Catholic Pro-Cathedral and the Co-M temple site in Sydney were once the Wesleyan Church and its hall. Church bought one, lodge the other. When St Albans was demolished in the 60s a wall fell on the back part of the temple building. It was rebuilt but they later sold and moved to the suburbs. A new St Albans was opened in 1976 in East Sydney, it has recently closed, there being no priest to serve it. The church in the northern suburb of Gordon is currently served by one frail priest in his eighties.

Laurence Fr

For a great read/laugh see "Beyond Belief - Theosophy in Australia 1879-1939" by Jill Roe, NSWU Press, Sydney 1986.
 

---

Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
Thanks for the info Fr Laurence, but that website you gave only gives US churches. Is there one for the LCC churches of the UK please?

Mention has been made about Co-Masonry. I don't know what that is.

Is the ritual of the Liberal Catholic Church related to Freemasons then?
If so I'd be a bit doubtful about it. Anyone help on this one.

No doubt the good Fr Laurence if he is around can.
 

---

Posted by northender (# 9374) on :
 
Last word on co-masonry, not being appropriate for this forum. But it is masonry that admits both men and women. There has always been a certain amount of church members who also were co-masons. Masonic influence on the Liturgy? Hardly. Except that masonry in its English form uses the Christian bible, therefore some familiar texts are common to both. I recall at a funeral a Mason commenting on words he knew from his ritual, but that just indicates the common Old Testament was used.

That US website I recall was a sort of generic one used by all provinces. I cannot find the UK one. The London church of All Saints in on Upper Richmond Road, Putney.

That must about play out this thread.

Laurence Fr
 

---

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
I blinked at that address trying to remember a church there and found this link with a photograph of the building.

[edited to add a question, else Doublethink will slap my wrists for not adding to the conversation.]

Is it usual for these Liberal Catholic Churches to meet in secular buildings? I would have thought there were enough redundant church buildings around - having heard how many churches, both Church of England and other denominations had gone out of commission of the past few years at a talk last week.

[ 27. September 2009, 07:13: Message edited by: Curiosity killed ... ]
 

---

Posted by Margaret (# 283) on :
 
The LCC in Bristol used to meet in a chapel in the basement of the big Victorian house in Clifton owned by the Theosophical Society, and an LCC bishop lived in a flat on the top floor. About fifteen years ago - I'm rather hazy on the chronology as it happened after I'd left Bristol - the bishop and the Bristol TS committee fell out, and he eventually moved (and left the LCC, devised his own rite, which apparently was based on early Syriac sources but unitarian in theology, and started ordaining women). I don't know whether there's a congregation still meeting there - it would be interesting to know!
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
I am tempted to find out since that place is ten minutes walk from here.

I know the bishop concerned - he died about three years ago and was a very learned, if somewhat eccentric chap. (When he showed me round, he stubbed out his fag in a holy water stoup upon entry._

[ 27. September 2009, 16:22: Message edited by: leo ]
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
I have just googled it - it seems to have moved to Easton, the poor end of the city. That doesn't mean, of course, that there isn't a splinter group still in basement of the Theosophists.
 

---

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:

Is it usual for these Liberal Catholic Churches to meet in secular buildings? I would have thought there were enough redundant church buildings around - having heard how many churches, both Church of England and other denominations had gone out of commission of the past few years at a talk last week.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:

What puzzles me is I cannt find, and no one has pointed to, the Lib Cath Church website with churches / HQ etc in the UK.

---

Try this one.
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
St. Raphael's almost looks as if it might have been some sort of retail outlet once.

We used to have a tiny little LCC church near here - I believe it started off as some sort of workshop. It has since been renovated and is now a most beautiful Orthodox Church, which, of course, needs no space-devouring pews!

Ian J.
 

---

Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
Good point Bishops F - it does look like a shop or something.

Its curious that you knew of the Lib Cats. near you but no longer, the Bournemouth one in the photo looks closed and Leo says theres a closed one his way. These are in not big cities it seems to me and suggests the LCC was once much bigger.

Our good friend Google came up with
a photo of a Letchworth Liberal Catholic Church. I think this is a breakaway from the established Liberal catholic Church though.

And also this curious website - with priests pics etc.
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Laetare, what makes you think the (rather nice) church at Letchworth is a breakaway from the 'established' LCC, whatever that may be exactly (they seem to be somewhat fissiparous)?

The impression one gets from the internet is of a number of several very small groups, perhaps with some features in common, but with little to say to each other!

BTW, wasn't there a MW Report from a Liberal Catholic church many moons ago?

Ian J.
 

---

Posted by Laetare (# 3583) on :
 
Thanks Bishops Finger and whoops! I made a mistake in my last post.

I meant to say I thought THIS was a breakaway group from the LCC, not the Letchworth one. This little group certainly don't have churches cos it says on that website:
"All the oratories listed below are in private homes. As these are not public buildings please contact the priest or custodian beforehand to ensure there is adequate space."

But where on the web is the Liberal Catholic Church UK?
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Depends whether you want the Liberal Catholic Church International, the Reformed Liberal Catholic Church, the Liberal Catholic Apostolic Church......I said they were fissiparous!

I can't find a list of churches, either. I tried Geograph for photos - the result was just two (Bournemouth and Letchworth)!

The Letchworth church (St. Alban's) is really quite a neat and attractive little building, and I would love to know what it looks like inside.

Ian J.
 

---

Posted by northender (# 9374) on :
 
CORRECTION
All Saints LCC in London was indeed a real church building, bought off someone else. Even came with a real pipe organ. So that address I gave must be for some other group.

The website with all the disparate groups is run by the head of one of the women ordaining breakaway groups. He tends to remember somewhat larger than life. The official LCC requested that they not be mentioned on that site, without success.

Laurence
 

---

Posted by Max. (# 5846) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
The covenant on my first house precluded me from burning lime or brewing alcohol on the premises, and from using a steam road locomotive (and also, IIRC, from holding religious meetings)!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laetare:
I think Bishop's Finger has a good point there.

Here is a photo of the Bournemouth Liberal Catholic Church.

It seems to be an addition to a house. I cant see much full liturgy happening in that space - but mind you I'm sure some shipmates can tell stories liturgies in front rooms with lots of clergy / acolytes!

What puzzles me is I cannt find, and no one has pointed to, the Lib Cath Church website with churches / HQ etc in the UK.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishops Finger:



BTW, wasn't there a MW Report from a Liberal Catholic church many moons ago?

Ian J.

---

It was St Raphael's in Berkeley.
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Thank you for that, Father.

It struck me whilst re-reading the Report what a dismal future that LCC parish must face if they can only muster a congregation of 3 at their main weekly service (in fact, the website seems to imply that Mass is no longer celebrated regularly).

Ian J.
 

---

Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on :
 
I found the last paragraph on this page particularly interesting.
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
In what way, Michael?

Ian J.
 

---

Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on :
 
It just made me smile.
 

---

Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :
 
Married Catholic bishop ?
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 


Ah. I see.

And possibly the veiled implication as to the proper place of wimmin in the church?

I'll get me coat..........

Ian J.
 

---

Posted by Eddy (# 3583) on :
 
I know I keep asking this but where in England is there a regulalrly worshipping Liberal catholic Church? (I'm thinking of the original LCC not breakaways, but any would do!).

And where is there web presence??
 

---

Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on :
 
It wasn't either of those things, really, as much as it was that the bishop's wife was also his crosier-bearer, and that this reminded me of a friend's account of visiting another vagantes group, where the altar was set up on the Sunday morning by the priest's wife spreading a doily on the table. The fact that her name is Freda just adds to the homely effect.
 

---

Posted by Eddy (# 3583) on :
 
Michael, you call this LCC a vagantes group. Now I don't disagree but I wonder what makes a group a vagantes group and what makes them not a vagantes group?

I think thats a bit of a tangent, but I hope its OK.

The Liturgy of the LCC seems quite grand and the church has loads of orsers of mionistry, but it only seems to have small buildings - if it in fact has any in England. maybe thats a cause for its decline.
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
I begin to suspect that the Liberal Catholic churches (in their various manifestations) actually have no public services in the UK. It seems as though you have to contact their clergy to either find out times and places, or else to virtually make an appointment to attend worship.

See

http://www.crossdenominationalmission.org.uk/liberalcatholic.html

for a list of LCC groups (the Well Chapel and Young Rite sites are interesting).

Ian J.
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
I should have said that not all churches listed on that page are recognised by the others! The Young Rite is one, and I'm none too sure how the Well Chapel fits into the LCC scene either.

Ian J.
 

---

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
I know I keep asking this but where in England is there a regulalrly worshipping Liberal catholic Church? (I'm thinking of the original LCC not breakaways, but any would do!).

And where is there web presence??

---

There is one in Liverpool (with a minimal web presence). It definitely exists (I know the priest), but I've no idea whether anyone apart from the priest and his wife turns up for the advertised services.
 

---

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
Really? Where were the group who were MWed a few years ago? Were they in the States, I really can't recall.

A friend of mine was asked whether he'd like to be ordained by one of their bishops who was a friend of his - as he was already a CofE Reader, he was told he wouldn't need any more training... As he reported it, this would have involved a visit to their cathedral on the North Norfolk coast, which is apparently in a garden shed.

If their cathedral is a shed, that would suggest that the congregation might not be terribly large...
 

---

Posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd) (# 12163) on :
 
I think they are, quite literally, dying out.

The curious mixture of Occult and supposed 'Christianity' is a wee bit outdated. Rather twee.

I suspect moderns who 'feel that way' incline to the so-called 'Gnostic' churches: none of which seem to have any link with historic Gnosticism.

Like the (still extant, surprisingly) Irvingite Catholic Apostolic Church they are IMO one of those curious mainly Anglo-Saxon manifestations of religious nuttiness: a bit like British Israel.

Of course 'they are all different' and it may be interesting for some to trace their roots and cross-fertilisation but they all seem a bit limp and wilted theologically and otherwise to me.
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
Michael, you call this LCC a vagantes group. Now I don't disagree but I wonder what makes a group a vagantes group and what makes them not a vagantes group?

I think thats a bit of a tangent, but I hope its OK.

The Liturgy of the LCC seems quite grand and the church has loads of orsers of mionistry, but it only seems to have small buildings - if it in fact has any in England. maybe thats a cause for its decline.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
the (still extant, surprisingly) Irvingite Catholic Apostolic Church

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
the (still extant, surprisingly) Irvingite Catholic Apostolic Church

---

The Cathaps consist mainly of elderly people living in or near Gordon Square, London hoping to get inside Christ the King when Christ returns - he is due to sit on the throne there (it was their church before they sold it to the C of E).

They don't hold liturgies any more since they involved a huge dramatis personae and there aren't enough people to staff it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
As he reported it, this would have involved a visit to their cathedral on the North Norfolk coast, which is apparently in a garden shed.

---

quote:

---

The Grail Community was the first LCC Church in the UK to admit women to the five minor orders and has developed a unique service to Our Lady which is solely led by women. Sadly, our research over the years has not shown that the full consecration of the bread and the wine takes place or that the ability to receive the apostolic succession is possible whilst the person is in a female body.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
I am not sure that that is the case. Before FiF were there, it was the Uni. Chaplaincy but the (then) new bishop of London closed it because it needed costly roof repairs. Had it not been owned by the C of E, the cost would not have been an issue.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Thurible:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
I am not sure that that is the case. Before FiF were there, it was the Uni. Chaplaincy but the (then) new bishop of London closed it because it needed costly roof repairs. Had it not been owned by the C of E, the cost would not have been an issue.

---

It is indeed owned by the Catholic Apostolic Church and leased to FiF.

Thurible

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
I am not sure that that is the case. Before FiF were there, it was the Uni. Chaplaincy but the (then) new bishop of London closed it because it needed costly roof repairs. Had it not been owned by the C of E, the cost would not have been an issue.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
For some reason I find it hilarious that there's a LCC church in Bideford of all places -- and 'Chalice House' no less!

This bit from their website is... curious:

quote:

---

The Grail Community was the first LCC Church in the UK to admit women to the five minor orders and has developed a unique service to Our Lady which is solely led by women. Sadly, our research over the years has not shown that the full consecration of the bread and the wine takes place or that the ability to receive the apostolic succession is possible whilst the person is in a female body.

---

What 'research' could one conduct to draw this conclusion? I'm also curious about the 'the person being in a female body'. Do they believe in reincarnation?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by uncletoby:
Is the whole thing leased to FiF, or just the English Chapel?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
For some reason I find it hilarious that there's a LCC church in Bideford of all places -- and 'Chalice House' no less!

This bit from their website is... curious:

quote:

---

The Grail Community was the first LCC Church in the UK to admit women to the five minor orders and has developed a unique service to Our Lady which is solely led by women. Sadly, our research over the years has not shown that the full consecration of the bread and the wine takes place or that the ability to receive the apostolic succession is possible whilst the person is in a female body.

---

What 'research' could one conduct to draw this conclusion? I'm also curious about the 'the person being in a female body'. Do they believe in reincarnation?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Low Treason:
As far as I know, no-one has done a proper study since Henry Brandreth (Episopi Vagantes and the Anglican Church) and Peter Anson (Bishops at Large) at least 50 years ago. Surely the time is ripe for an update?

---

Here is one. The author is himself a vagantes bishop, and this was his doctoral dissertation.

Here is another.
 

---

Posted by Extol (# 11865) on :
 
Here is one more. Apocryphile Press has a number of good titles in Old Catholic history--some old reprints, some good new studies.
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Bishop of Medway? Hmmm.......I wonder if the see is vacant......



Ian J.
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Oh dear.

Having Googled Roger Gleaves....



Let that be a lesson to me not to attempt feeble jokes about people without finding out the facts.

Sincere apologies for any offence caused.

Ian J.
 

---

Posted by Low Treason (# 11924) on :
 
Gleaves was always referred to as the 'Bogus Bishop' in the press, but as I recall he may have had a connection with one of the more respectable autocephalous churches. However quite understandably, any reference to that
will have long since been very carefully obliterated!
 

---

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Extol:
Here is one more. Apocryphile Press has a number of good titles in Old Catholic history--some old reprints, some good new studies.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Low Treason:
Gleaves was always referred to as the 'Bogus Bishop' in the press, but as I recall he may have had a connection with one of the more respectable autocephalous churches. However quite understandably, any reference to that
will have long since been very carefully obliterated!

---

quote:

---

Ruth divine that givest heed
Unto every cry of need,
Healing balm to hearts that bleed,
Help us, holy Master.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
Why no Divine Praises, seeing as virtually everything else is the same as the old Benediction rite? Maybe they don't believe in the Immaculate Conception or the Assumption? (Odd, because they believe in Ascended Masters.)

---

quote:

---

Thee we adore, O hidden Splendour, Thee,
Who in Thy Sacrament dost deign to be;
We worship Thee beneath this earthly veil,
And here Thy Presence we devoutly hail.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rudolf:
Dear Eddy, In response to your original query about this verse

quote:

---

Thee we adore, O hidden Splendour, Thee,
Who in Thy Sacrament dost deign to be;
We worship Thee beneath this earthly veil,
And here Thy Presence we devoutly hail.

---

It may not be clear elsewhere, but this is sung to "Abide with me", which is lovely, I think.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fr Weber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Low Treason:
Gleaves was always referred to as the 'Bogus Bishop' in the press, but as I recall he may have had a connection with one of the more respectable autocephalous churches. However quite understandably, any reference to that
will have long since been very carefully obliterated!

---

I remember reading of some Old Catholic prelate or other in Chicago who was busted for running a male prostitution ring. Apparently, when he wasn't wearing a miter, he was running a chain of adult bookstores. Charming fellah.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fr Cuthbert:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fr Weber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Low Treason:
Gleaves was always referred to as the 'Bogus Bishop' in the press, but as I recall he may have had a connection with one of the more respectable autocephalous churches. However quite understandably, any reference to that
will have long since been very carefully obliterated!

---

I remember reading of some Old Catholic prelate or other in Chicago who was busted for running a male prostitution ring. Apparently, when he wasn't wearing a miter, he was running a chain of adult bookstores. Charming fellah.

---

I know these groups can attract some unsavoury characters, but the dear old Church of England has its share too.

I remember a priest in Yorkshire who hit the papers when he went to run a male brothel in Thailand.

I had relatives in Walthamstow where about 10 years ago a former forces chaplain hit the News of the World for all sorts of gay happenings!

Both were deprived (unfrocked) I think.

Somehow Anglo Catholicism has its fair share as well as Liberal Catholicism

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fr Cuthbert:
I remember a priest in Yorkshire who hit the papers when he went to run a male brothel in Thailand.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fr Weber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by rudolf:
Dear Eddy, In response to your original query about this verse

quote:

---

Thee we adore, O hidden Splendour, Thee,
Who in Thy Sacrament dost deign to be;
We worship Thee beneath this earthly veil,
And here Thy Presence we devoutly hail.

---

It may not be clear elsewhere, but this is sung to "Abide with me", which is lovely, I think.

---

That's good to hear. It really wouldn't work to Adoro te devote .

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
OTOH, people may have gone to the LCC seeking, found nothing, and moved on (guided by God, indeed, or so we hope).

If you look around, the churches which are growing are often those whose beliefs and practices demand a certain level of commitment - be they Evangelical, Catholic or whatever.

These woolly-pated, fluffy-bunny, liberal sects are conspicuous by their small size, IYSWIM.

Ian J.

---

So Ian J. you'd never accept that God may have guided someone into the Liberal catholic Church.

"These woolly-pated, fluffy-bunny, liberal sects are conspicuous by their small size, IYSWIM."

You mean like the C of E?

I know its so dreadful when they are so fluffy bunny "instead of preaching salvation through the sacrifice on Calvary of Jesus Christ, made present for us here and now in the sacrifice of the Mass."

Having said which I admire this LCC guy's statement about not forcing people to believe:
Its here.
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Eddy, I do wish you'd try to read posts properly.

I did not use the word 'never' - I used the word 'may'. There is a difference.

I'm really sorry that you don't seem to like the idea that the purpose of Christianity is to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I may have got that wrong, but if that is, in fact, the case, then I shall pray for you.

In Christian love, of course.

Ian J.
 

---

Posted by Eddy (# 3583) on :
 
Oh I'm sorry if I misread that. Thanks for letting me know. And thanks for assuring me of your prayers.

"I'm really sorry that you don't seem to like the idea that the purpose of Christianity is to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ."

The small groups like LCC I think often have something to offer the larger church. Their unpaid priests may be examples of self sacrifice for the sake of the Gospel.

Their liturgies I think are worth looking at. There may even be something to learn from them.
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 


Ian J.
 

---

Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :
 
Eddy, you want to get personal - take it to hell. This whole thread could do with less snark and more discussion. If people don't want to discuss it - don't reply.

T²

Eccles Host
 

---

Posted by Low Treason (# 11924) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
...The small groups like LCC I think often have something to offer the larger church. Their unpaid priests may be examples of self sacrifice for the sake of the Gospel.

Their liturgies I think are worth looking at. There may even be something to learn from them.

---

The problem seems to be that although the liturgies of the various different forms of the Liberal Catholic Church may look interesting-but-orthodox, these churches tend to cluster toward the lunatic fringe.

Having read the liturgy linked in the OP it looks like a mish-mash of anything and everything the compilers liked from the BCP, the Roman Missal, and anything else they came across. IMHO this is not the way liturgy is created. Perhaps that is what is to be learned. Liturgy is not just a selection of bits and pieces which sound nice or feel good.

The problem with the LCC in all its myriad forms, is that despite all appearances to the contrary, they are not just another form of 'independant catholicism'. IIRC the LCC is based on a curious mixture of Christianity and 'Theosophy', a sort of hotchpotch of Eastern beliefs involving re-incarnation and the development of the soul through various levels of which the human condition is only one.

I think to most mainstream christians, they would be classed as heretics, I consider them to be totally bonkers. YMMV
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Indeed. And perhaps it's only fair (even if obvious) to point out that there are unpaid and self-sacrificing priests and ministers in other denominations........!

Ian J.
 

---

Posted by Eddy (# 3583) on :
 
Yes, there are Ian J. Thats a good point to make. Thanks.

Now mention has been made here about Theosophy and the Liberal Catholic Church. Looking at there liturgies what is it that shows this Theosophy - and is Theosophy a B A D thing by the way, I simply don't know.
 

---

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :
 
Good or bad, it's not Christian.

Thurible
 

---

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
By a funny old coincidence, there is a recent thread on Christians and Reincarnation in Purgatory...

Some aspects of whether Theosophy is an appropriate belief might be better housed there rather than on this thread, which should relate more directly to how the LCC etc. worship.

Just a suggestion!

dj_ordinaire, Eccles host
 

---

Posted by Eddy (# 3583) on :
 
I'm sorry djo but I don't quite get your worry about this.

What I'm saying is we are told that the Liturgy of the LCC shows Theosophy influence. I'm asking whats that mean and where is it in their liturgy. So to me thats about how what they believe and how they worship and the words of liturgy link.

Now Thurible is saying 'its not Christian' - what theosophy or LCC?

I actually am a bit uncomfortable with christians who say others who call themselves christian aren't in fact christian.
 

---

Posted by Manipled Mutineer (# 11514) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:

Now Thurible is saying 'its not Christian' - what theosophy or LCC?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:

Now Thurible is saying 'its not Christian' - what theosophy or LCC?

---

From the context I think Thurible was referring to Theosophy the belief system (in response to your question about it being a bad or good thing.)

---

Sorry, I had thought it obvious. MM is correct.

Thurible
 

---

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
And to clarify further - what I mean is that this is the appropriate place for discussing whether there is theosophy in the liturgies of the LCC. If you want to discuss more generally whether beliefs such as theosophy or other forms of reincarnationalism are congruent with honestly calling oneself a Christian, then the Purg thread would be the appropriate place.

Clear?

djo, Eccles host
 

---

Posted by northender (# 9374) on :
 
re Liberal Catholic Benediction rite.

The idea of a metrical litany was imported from the Old Catholic Missal and Ritual, which used A&M 472 between the O Salutaris and Tantum Ergo.

The current Litany uses verses from A&M 464, 466, 469, 470 and 472, plus original material.

A good dictionary will tell you that "ruth" is the opposite of "ruthless".

The Divine Praises are not used, but a rough equivalent based on the Sacrosanctae prayer is said as an ascription of praise before the actual Benediction.

The tune to the hymn "Closed is the solemn hour" was written specially for these words, as they are an in unusual metre.

The feasts of the Assumption and Immaculate Conception are in the LC Calendar, but there is no doctrinal definition given, apart from what may be read in the appointed Collects.

The Ceremonial book states that the O Salutaris,
Tantum Ergo, versicles, responses and prayer and the act of Benediction are the only portions of liturgical obligation. The closing hymn, for instance, is only suitable for evenings.

This thread has prompted me to put my 28 year old notes on the sources of the LC Liturgy into computer format. I have noted all the scripture quotes, 1549 BCP bits, Irvingite material with its Orthodox sources, hymn sources, etc. So far I have done the Eucharist, Prime, Sext, Vespers and Complin.

In my clergy training days my research paper for the L C Institute of Studies was on all the collects and Benediction.

Laurence Fr
 

---

Posted by Eddy (# 3583) on :
 
Fr Laurence thanks so much for that v interesting info. Its so kind of you to spenfd the time to go into detail.

Your wrote:
"The Divine Praises are not used, but a rough equivalent based on the Sacrosanctae prayer is said as an ascription of praise before the actual Benediction."

Any chance of posting that prayer LCC use, please?
 

---

Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :
 
The non-theosophical LCCI has a cathedral (picture) in NYC. Any MW reporters in the area?

[ 14. October 2009, 18:56: Message edited by: LQ ]
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
That is one of the most hideous church interiors I have ever seen.



Ian J.
 

---

Posted by Eddy (# 3583) on :
 
Yea kinda spooky there. Pity they couldnt have more light on that sanctuary, but, hey, maybe they like a dim gloom!

The outside isn't very appealing either - see the homepage of there website.
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Yes, the exterior is not at all appealing.

Mind you, they seem to be trying very hard to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear!

Ian J.
 

---

Posted by Eddy (# 3583) on :
 
lol, whats the sow's ear - them and what they believe, or the building, lol. I guess you mean the building.

I know I keep asking about this and dont want to move out of Ecclesiantics land, but in their liturgy please can someone give an example of what suggests they are into freemasonry or theosophy - whats the words that are a give away?
 

---

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Yes, I did mean the Cathedral!



Mind you, it may well have started life as some sort of commercial building - a warehouse or retail outlet of some sort, perhaps?

Ian J.
 

---

Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
dont want to move out of Ecclesiantics land

---

quote:

---

And to clarify further - what I mean is that this is the appropriate place for discussing whether there is theosophy in the liturgies of the LCC.

---

quote:

---

So for now thats what I'm asking you guys who are in the know about theosophy etc.

Is there theosophy in the Lib Cat liturgies and what does it show up as?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rudolf:

Secondly, and along the same lines, the LCC liturgy lists the Seraphim, Cherubim, Thrones, Dominions, Principalities, and so on, which I'm told are there in the Book of Revelation, but in theosophical terms these are the 12 creative hierarchies, but this is not explained fully in theosophy, but you are given to understand that there are evolutions (and involutions) taking place at all levels and in all Kingdoms of nature - the earth is not here just for humanity to evolve, but also for all the other life streams.

---

The angelic hierarchy comes from Pseudo-Dionysus (5th c., I think). He makes use of terms which are scriptural, but his arrangement of the hierarchy (in 9, not 12 levels) in three spheres is original with him. He is, of course, called "Pseudo-Dionysus" because at one time
The Celestial Hierarchy was attributed to Dionysus the Areopagite.

However, looking on Wikipedia I notice that St Clement of Rome posits an 11-level hierarchy in his Apostolic Constitutions, so I guess the idea wasn't original with Pseudo-D. after all! And all this talk of "levels" is starting to look very Dungeons & Dragons to me...
 

---

Posted by northender (# 9374) on :
 
The Ascription in the LC Rite which comes before the solemn act of Benediction, is the equivalent of the Divine Praises which come after in the Roman Use, but these are not the same in content or style.

To the most holy and adorable Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, three Persons in one God; to Christ our Lord, the only wise counsellor, the prince of peace; to the seven mighty spirits before the throne; and to the glorious assembly of just men made perfect, the watchers, the saints, the holy ones, be praise unceasing from every living creature; and honour might and glory, henceforth and for evermore. R/. Amen.

The actual basis of the Ascription is the Sacrosanctae, an indulgenced prayer to be said after the Divine Office in the old Roman breviary: To the most holy and undivided Trinity, to the humanity of our crucified Lord Jesus Christ, to the fruitful virginity of the most holy and glorious ever virgin Mary, and to the company of all the saints, may praise, honour and glory be given by every creature, and may we be granted the remission of all our sins, through all eternity. Amen.

Laurence Fr
 

---

Posted by northender (# 9374) on :
 
For those interested, here is the Communicantes from the Canon of the LC Eucharist. Unusually for a portion of the Canon, it is addressed to the Son.

Uniting in this joyful sacrifice with thy holy church throughout all the ages, we lift our hearts in adoration to thee, O God the Son, consubstantial, co-eternal with the Father, who, abiding unchangeable within thyself, didst nevertheless in the mystery of thy boundless love and thine eternal sacrifice, breathe forth thine own divine life into thy universe, and thus didst offer thyself as the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, dying in very truth that we might live.

Omnipotent, all-pervading, by that self-same sacrifice, thou dost continually uphold all creation, resting not by night or day, working evermore through that most august hierarchy of thy glorious saints, who live but to do thy will as perfect channels of thy wondrous power, to whom we ever offer heartfelt love and reverence.

Thou, O most dear and holy Lord, hast in thine ineffable wisdom ordained for us this blessed sacrament of thy love, that in it we may not only commemorate in symbol that thine eternal oblation, but verily take part in it, and perpetuate thereby, within the limitations of time and space which veil our earthly eyes from the excess of thy glory, the enduring sacrifice by which the world is nourished and sustained.
___________

Laurence Fr
 

---

Posted by Eddy (# 3583) on :
 
Thanks Angloid. Its not always easy to discover from the website you point to just when and where services are... But I'll keep looking over it.

Here is the LCC Confirmation service I like the words of confirmation. They make quite abit of it and the words are nice.

That Veni Creator looks a bit different from how I seem to remeber it. Am I right that its different?
 

---

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
Odd that there is no renewal of baptismal vows.
 

---

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
Odd indeed. There's essentially no connection to Baptism other than a passing comment about the confirmands being old enough to speak for themselves. The focus of the rite seems to be the granting of powers, but it's not in the sense of the "sevenfold gifts of the Spirit" in a traditional catholic or anglican sense; if I understand it correctly, the sacramental rite conveys a spiritual power that in turn confers physical strength upon the confirmand. That this new strength is intended for doing good works for upholding the common good and furthering the kingdom is fine by me, but there's something about the spiritual/physical connection that seemed a little ... I don't know, metaphysical, perhaps? ... and made me uncomfortable. That, and all the militaristic language: "knight," "soldier," "manly fight."
 

---

Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
I know I keep asking this but where in England is there a regulalrly worshipping Liberal catholic Church? (I'm thinking of the original LCC not breakaways, but any would do!).

And where is there web presence??

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
A rather muddled argument Bishops F. People may have gone to LCC seeking and found something but then moved on guided by God.

Quakers are good people and they don't have doctrines to 'get their teeth into', do you dismiss them as well?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Quite so. The LCC, however marginally interesting their liturgy might be, is of little or no consequence in the UK church scene (which is in a dire enough state anyway, without having to worry about trying to learn how to do it better by looking at a tiny and eccentric sect).

Ian J.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by celestialstarfire:
Hi,

[1.] was it such a bad thing to offer hope in a world that was falling apart?

[2.] ..... the LCC Mass is actually one of hope and promise, focusing on the finer qualities of humanity in hope that what we focus on increases.

---

quote:

---

Some of us would take exception to their position on [. . . ] homosexuality (no bar to priests or bishops being actively "gay" - rumour has it that some are). Surprise that the Bideford church community seem to accept them as a valid group hmmmmmmm

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by celestialstarfire:
Hi,

I'm new to this ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:

1. It's one thing to offer hope but quite another to misrepresent the truth of Christ's mission. If all are to be saved anyway - why was the cross required?
[........]

2. I just don't get this finer qualities of humanity stuff. We have no innate finer qualities - what is in us that is good is not from ourselves but as a result of what God has done. I'd rather focus and praise the giver not the gift is its all the same to you. Christian belief across the denominations (apart it seems from the LCC) takes this stance.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Mamacita

Apologies for intemperance. I will try to remember my manners in future and learn how to do some things properly

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
1. It's one thing to offer hope but quite another to misrepresent the truth of Christ's mission. If all are to be saved anyway - why was the cross required?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
[QB] Hi there patriotic_mason. Its cool that some LCC guys are posting here. Thanks for the time and the insights.

---

quote:

---

If you're still around I'd like to ask you guys - are you cradle LCC or did you convert.

---

quote:

---

How do you think your liturgy compares with that opf other churches - I mean kinda what do you think is special about LCC liturgy and you'd miss if it wasnt there.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
If you're still around I'd like to ask you guys - are you cradle LCC or did you convert.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by patriotic_mason:
.....I would point out that while the original LCC (for most purposes known as the "old synod") is dwindling, the "splinter" groups are holding steady and in some cases growing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by celestialstarfire:
What is everyone else's thoughts on ordination? In your opinions is it eternal? Or is it something you can be fired from?

I was always told that it was eternal as a sacramental act.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by celestialstarfire:
[QB] Hey....as far as I know there are some areas of definate growth in the "old" LCC, or atleast that's the case here in Britain.

---

I apologize. I heard from a European Bishop that such was not the case in the UK or Europe. I'm glad to hear it's prospering too!

quote:

---

As for some of the URLS....can I just point out that the RLCC website is in fact inaccurate...I know because I used to maintain the reformedlcc.org website and it ceased to be because the Bishop wasn't interested in transferring ownership and renewing the various fees. Currently the site administered by David Linley in America is factually incorrect and yes I do have an abundance of e mails evidencing this.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by patriotic_mason:
No need to talk about +David.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:


Its fab to have those UK websites. Its a pity they're so hard to find. It gives the impression the LCC isnt too bothered about outreach. Is that right?

---

quote:

---

The http://www.stfrancislcc.bravehost.com/index.html url you say is original LCC. But does that mean there is just one church thats original LCC?

---

quote:

---

Soemthing I was wondering about is do all these churches use the same liturgy, and what Calendar does the LCC use - like which saints days etc. That gives an impression to me of where a church lies.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
Oh and on that original synod church again - just where is Tekels Park? and aren't they a bit daft for not saying where they are?!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Low Treason:
Is not the LCC a syncretic mixture of Christianity and Theosophy?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by celestialstarfire:
It is a historical fact that the "branch" of 'The Liberal Catholic Church' currently headed up by Bishop Graham Wale is the "original" Liberal Catholic Church.

---

quote:

---

Corporately perhaps, but the cursory research I've done in support of this thread seems to indicate that it was the hierarchy's departure from its previous tolerance of non-Theosophists that triggered the schism.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LQ:

quote:

---

Originally posted by celestialstarfire:
It is a historical fact that the "branch" of 'The Liberal Catholic Church' currently headed up by Bishop Graham Wale is the "original" Liberal Catholic Church.

---

Corporately perhaps, but the cursory research I've done in support of this thread seems to indicate that it was the hierarchy's departure from its previous tolerance of non-Theosophists that triggered the schism.

(Contrast with Swedenborgianism, say, where the older of the two main denominations is the "liberal" one, and the newer branch is larger and more conservative).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
In the Mass of the LCC how many ministers are needed - for a Low Mass and for a High Mass?

The LCC seems to have loads of orders of ministry, you see, and I was wondering how they function in the liturgy.

---

quote:

---

To my knowledge, only the Old Synod LCC, and the LCC - Theosophia Synod in Florida mandate membership in the TS, require Clergy in Major Orders be Vegetarians, accept without question reincarnation and belief in the Ascended Masters.

The other "branches" of the Liberal Catholic movement leave all of that optional.

---

quote:

---

While the LCC does still ordain and use the Minor Orders (including the Subdiaconate), in practical use there doesn't appear to be any special office one must attain to assist at the altar (of course only a Priest and Deacon may handle the items at the altar, but that's another issue.)

---

Wouldn't that be Altar Server?


But on a serious note....the first "minister" to assist at the Altar is of course the Sub-Deacon. Originally most parishes had atleast a Priest, Deacon and Sub-Deacon. Those in Minor Orders often are admitted as Altar Servers too and will "fill in" the gaps such as being thurifer, crucifer, boat bearer etc. depending on the celibration. Also, often Deaconesses will help distribute communion and can sit in the sanctuary and help by serving. Bishops Wedgwood and Leadbeater sought to restore the honoured lay ministry of the Deaconess and I believe Annie Besant was a Deaconess. Its a shame that this office isn't really utilised elsewhere in the church.

Ultimately only one "minister" is needed for the mass though.....the rest share the work and of course they do help it run more smoothly and make it look prettier. The one "minister" of course is the Priest or Bishop, often LCC Priests and Bishops will celebrate the mass alone like this at home.
 

---

Posted by patriotic_mason (# 15246) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by celestialstarfire:

To my knowledge, only the Old Synod LCC, and the LCC - Theosophia Synod in Florida mandate membership in the TS, require Clergy in Major Orders be Vegetarians, accept without question reincarnation and belief in the Ascended Masters.

The other "branches" of the Liberal Catholic movement leave all of that optional.

Well....here's the interesting thing....my Parish Priest and atleast one bishop I know in the LCC was never a member of the T.S. nor is the LCC Parish Priest of Birmingham Dr David Bennett. Nor was he required to believe in reincarnation.

It seems to be a misconception that nowadays membership of the T.S. vegetarianism, and belief in reincarnation is mandatory.....I've seen the recent application forms for ordinands, and they don't state a belief in the masters, vegetarianism nor theosophy as conditions for membership or being ordained.

---

Very interesting. I wonder, then, if the only thing keeping the various branches of the LCC apart are the hierarchs?

[ 27. October 2009, 15:25: Message edited by: dj_ordinaire ]
 

---

Posted by patriotic_mason (# 15246) on :
 
Sorry about my previous post formatting. Seems I should check it before posting. (and now I know you can't edit a post after 1 minute.)
 

---

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
Lol that's alright! I've fixed the last one for you - but yes, do make use of the 'Preview post' button, it's your friend

There is also a thread in the Styx for practicing your UBB coding.

dj_ordinaire, Ecclesiantics host
 

---

Posted by Eddy (# 3583) on :
 

quote:

---

require Clergy in Major Orders be Vegetarians, accept without question reincarnation and belief in the Ascended Masters.

---

quote:

---

Can you remind me of what the ascended masters are? [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Very interesting. I wonder, then, if the only thing keeping the various branches of the LCC apart are the hierarchs?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:

Liturgically - are these doctrines expressed in words in the liturgy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by celestialstarfire:

quote:

---

Very interesting. I wonder, then, if the only thing keeping the various branches of the LCC apart are the hierarchs?

---

Could be.....I don't know.

All I do know is that in my experience the "old" LCC aren't as bad or restrictive as some would try to make out. I know some might have issues because they don't ordain women....

---

quote:

---

Liturgically - are these doctrines expressed in words in the liturgy.

---

quote:

---

It is this Invocation:

"May the Holy Ones, whose pupils we aspire to become, show us the Light we seek, give us the strong aid of Their compassion and Their wisdom. There is a peace that passeth understanding; it abides in the hearts of Those who live in the Eternal. There is a power that maketh all things new; it lives and moves in Those who know the Self as one. May that peace brood over us, that power uplift us, till we stand where the One Initiator is invoked, till we see His star shine forth. R/. Amen."

---

quote:

---

If indeed all is as you perceive, then it seems to me that personal egos and women's ordination are all that stand in the way of a reunification among all LCC denominations.

What a pity really. The LibCath movement is so small, it would be nice to have a single group where scarce resources might be pooled in a common effort to reach out.

---

quote:

---

They're somthing promoted by Elizabeth Claire Prophet and her Organisation.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
Which is what?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:

Thanks for this full and interesting information. It seems LCC has a lot to show other churches about variety and acceptance and not forcing a hard doctrine stance on folk.

Do those branches that don't like women priests ordain gays?

---

I raised the question of sexuality with my former parish priest who was trained in the "old" LCC. If I can paraphrase in my own words what he told me, he said that sexuality was not something they focused a great deal on on when examining suitability of candidates and testing their vocation, provided the persons sexuality was legal, consensual and not predatorial. Though for an official answer, as always I'd reccommend contacting them directly

As for the whole "variety and acceptance" notion, my priest always used to say that one of the beauties of The Liberal Catholic Church was that it rejoiced in "reconciled diversity".
 

---

Posted by Eddy (# 3583) on :
 

quote:

---

In Liberal Catholic Thought (as articulated by Pigott, Wedgwood and Leadbeater) the "communion of saints" isn't exclusively composed of so called Christian Saints. It was held by Leadbeater et al. that God has spoken through all the religions of the world.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:

quote:

---

In Liberal Catholic Thought (as articulated by Pigott, Wedgwood and Leadbeater) the "communion of saints" isn't exclusively composed of so called Christian Saints. It was held by Leadbeater et al. that God has spoken through all the religions of the world.

---

Thats interesting, I've personally always thpught that non Christian saints counted as within the Communion of Saints, but, hey, maybe that just isn't Christian normal teaching!

---

A true LibCath in the making!
 

---

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:

quote:

---

In Liberal Catholic Thought (as articulated by Pigott, Wedgwood and Leadbeater) the "communion of saints" isn't exclusively composed of so called Christian Saints. It was held by Leadbeater et al. that God has spoken through all the religions of the world.

---

Thats interesting, I've personally always thpught that non Christian saints counted as within the Communion of Saints, but, hey, maybe that just isn't Christian normal teaching!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
We certainly include people like Gandhi in the 'saints' bit of the intercessions.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
We certainly include people like Gandhi in the 'saints' bit of the intercessions.

---

LCC folk - are the saints actually named in the liturgy like they are at Mass? If so are a wide variety included too?

---

quote:

---

in the holy Lady Mary and in all Thy glorious Saints from the beginning of the world, who have been the choice vessels of Thy grace and a shining light unto many generations."

---

I hope that guys agree with me that that is a lovely phrase and very inclusive. I like the saints from the beginning of the world, bit.

Its a pity its not spelled out by naming people but then they'rd be arguements about wo was in and who wasn't I guess.

The question is I suppose how inclusive is the Communion of Saints - by some churches lists, not very

 

---

Posted by patriotic_mason (# 15246) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:

quote:

---

in the holy Lady Mary and in all Thy glorious Saints from the beginning of the world, who have been the choice vessels of Thy grace and a shining light unto many generations."

---

I hope that guys agree with me that that is a lovely phrase and very inclusive. I like the saints from the beginning of the world, bit.

Its a pity its not spelled out by naming people but then they'rd be arguements about wo was in and who wasn't I guess.

The question is I suppose how inclusive is the Communion of Saints - by some churches lists, not very

---

quote:

---

The question is I suppose how inclusive is the Communion of Saints - by some churches lists, not very


Owing to the very heterodox theology of Liberal Catholic churches, I would assume that any holy person of any religion since the dawn of mankind would be included.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:

quote:

---

The question is I suppose how inclusive is the Communion of Saints - by some churches lists, not very


Owing to the very heterodox theology of Liberal Catholic churches, I would assume that any holy person of any religion since the dawn of mankind would be included.

---

Would Anglicans all be opposed to that idea though - including all holy people of the world in the communion of saints, or is that a no no.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by patriotic_mason:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:

quote:

---

The question is I suppose how inclusive is the Communion of Saints - by some churches lists, not very


Owing to the very heterodox theology of Liberal Catholic churches, I would assume that any holy person of any religion since the dawn of mankind would be included.

---

Would Anglicans all be opposed to that idea though - including all holy people of the world in the communion of saints, or is that a no no.

---

Depends on the Anglican. I've heard of Anglican ministers who embrace heterodox theologies like Universalism and even other faiths like Buddhism and Islam, while other Anglicans might very well scream anathema at the very suggestion.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
Thanks Leo I'm interested in that. Which calendar do you follow to find dates like that? It seems a progressive one - and I'd like to see it and maybe use it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:

quote:

---

in the holy Lady Mary and in all Thy glorious Saints from the beginning of the world, who have been the choice vessels of Thy grace and a shining light unto many generations."

---

I hope that guys agree with me that that is a lovely phrase and very inclusive. I like the saints from the beginning of the world, bit.

Its a pity its not spelled out by naming people but then they'rd be arguements about wo was in and who wasn't I guess.

The question is I suppose how inclusive is the Communion of Saints - by some churches lists, not very

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
[QB] [QUOTE] that we should only pray for the FAITHFUL' departed and exclude 'those whose faith is known to you alone'?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by celestialstarfire:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
[QB] [QUOTE] that we should only pray for the FAITHFUL' departed and exclude 'those whose faith is known to you alone'?

---

Can I pick something up here.....in the LCC Tradtion we say "May all the souls of the departed, through the Love of God rest in peace" whilst making the sign of the cross.

Which I think is rather nice.

---

quote:

---

.....the UNfaithful departed....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
celestialstarfire (thats a funny name) those are beautiful prayers (if we amend the man / mankind language a bit, of course). Its so good of you to post them up.

I really like this liturgical inclusive approach, which also leaves the way open to those who see Christianity as very special. I mean God must cast His wonderful light on all peoples, mustn't he?

I know some have dismissed the LCC as cranky or whatever, but even cranky folk, like me, can have insights sometimes (I hope).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
celestialstarfire (thats a funny name)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by patriotic_mason:
I like to think that the LCC has contributed to the Church Catholic in many small but significant ways.

Take, for example, it's pioneering use of the vernacular in the Mass.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by patriotic_mason:
I like to think that the LCC has contributed to the Church Catholic in many small but significant ways.

Take, for example, it's pioneering use of the vernacular in the Mass.

---

Pioneering? The c of E pioneered the vernacular in 1549, some 300 years before the LCC was conceived.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
Then the C of E beat them at that too - AFAIK The English Missal, used by anglo-catholics in 1912, did that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by patriotic_mason:


The LCC based their English Liturgy (in 1918-19) on the The Old Catholic Missal And Ritual published in 1909.

I suspect I have confused a statement referring to the OC missal and applied it to the LCC Liturgy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by celestialstarfire:
Collect as promised above:

Teach us, O Lord, to see Thy life in all men and in all the peoples of Thine earth and guide our nation through its leaders to preserve Thy peace that the menace of war is far from our days, through Christ our Lord. Amen.

In the 1924 edition of the LCC Liturgy, under Bp Leadbeater, this collect was said at every mass before the epistle.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by celestialstarfire:
You are right in that Bishop Mathew compiled in English the Old Catholic Missal and Ritual. It was his 'mission' which severed it's ties with the Old Catholic Church because of increasing prostestantism. They under Wedgwood's leadership changed their name to 'The Liberal Catholic Church (Old Catholic)'. Eventually they dropped the "Old Catholic" bit after the name basically because it was too long.

---

quote:

---

It is true that the Dutch Old Catholics did get involved with the Anglicans after Mathew.....despite them refusing to acknowledge Mathew after he declared independence from them, they did write in his defence to 'The Times' in previous years.

Funny how history works out hey?

---

quote:

---

There is an Old Catholic church in GB which claims to be the proper successor of +Mathew. Their old website (now defunct) stated clearly that it was they, not the LCC, who succeeded +Mathew in England and Great Britain. Their line goes from +Mathew to +Willoughby to +James Banks in 1922.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
So am I right in thinking that the Liberal catholic and Old Catholic liturgies are very similar?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
"I believe it was Bernard Mary Williams"

Who was he then?

---

quote:

---

"So all the "slavish" and "excessive" placating, cursing and abasement passages which are present in Tridentine Liturgies are replaced"

What a good idea!

---

quote:

---

"Also the readings for the week are set on the Sunday of the week,"

But you wouldnt then get much scripture in a year would you?

Mind you is the daily office of the LCC available? It may have long scripture readings.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by celestialstarfire:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
"I believe it was Bernard Mary Williams"

Who was he then?

---

I believe he was a Bishop consecrated by Bishop Mathew. If you look online I'm sure you'll find something.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by celestialstarfire:
This link might be of some interest to those interested in The Liberal Catholic Liturgy. It is the LCC equivalent of 'Fortescue and O'Connel' and its commonly known as the Blue Book. Its fuller title is 'Ceremonies of The Liberal Catholic Rite' by Irving S. Cooper. Bishop Cooper was the Regionary Bishop for the USA at one point. It explains fully the ritual and ceremonial workings of the Church.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
Its published by the St Alban press who've been mentioned before on this thread, are they official publishing house of the LCC?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
This photo of a Bishop being consecrated in the Liberal Catholic Church shows a big altar with a little one at its side. Is the little one a sife altar or a credence table, I can't work that out.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
This photo of a Bishop being consecrated in the Liberal Catholic Church shows a big altar with a little one at its side. Is the little one a sife altar or a credence table, I can't work that out.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by patriotic_mason:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
This photo of a Bishop being consecrated in the Liberal Catholic Church shows a big altar with a little one at its side. Is the little one a sife altar or a credence table, I can't work that out.

---

I believe it is a side altar. I wouldn't think a credence table would have candles.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by patriotic_mason:
I believe it is a side altar. I wouldn't think a credence table would have candles.

---

quote:

---

the offerings he is to make to his consecrating Bishop are placed upon the altar, six candlesticks, altar cross etc.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
How interesting. I didn't realise this custome existed. Offerings to the consecrating bishop from the guy being ordained...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
"I have read that in the past at the "offertory" in the Eucharist people would present food etc. for the priest."

I never heard about this custom before - is it just in the Lib Cath Church where this happens or do you mean in the churches of the West in the past.

By the way does the LCC have modern language worship as well or has it stuck to the traditional language of previous generations?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
It is interesting that traditional language is the most used......the vestments of the priests is traditional as well.

Yet the theology and outlook is very liberal. What a interesting combination!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by patriotic_mason:
Leadbeater's Science of the Sacraments is online.

http://users.rcn.com/donlav/cath-mass/index.htm

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
Mind you I think some Anglo Catholic churches are traditional in liturgy but very liberal in teaching / theology - is that what others have found, or have I not got that quite right?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:

Mind you I think some Anglo Catholic churches are traditional in liturgy but very liberal in teaching / theology - is that what others have found, or have I not got that quite right?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PaulTH*:
.....Still I doubt if I could take on board Madame Blavatsky or Annie Besant if that's a requirement.

---

Nope they're not

Bishop Wedgwood spelt out that everyone in the Liberal Catholic Church has the right of freedom of belief and interpretation.
 

---

Posted by Eddy (# 3583) on :
 
So does these mean membership is attending the liturgy but believeing whatever you like without any boundaries at all?

Thats quite an unusual position, isn't it. Maybe a bit like the Quakers + traditional liturgy!
 

---

Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :
 
One way to under stand the UK Quaker tradition is that the focus it is not what you believe, it is how you arrive at the belief. (In theory being inspired by the divine.) I suppose that a liturgical church might think that if you repeat the liturgy enough, and it is well written, eventually you will believe what it teaches.
 

---

Posted by rudolf (# 2995) on :
 

quote:

---

Still I doubt if I could take on board Madame Blavatsky or Annie Besant if that's a requirement.

---

quote:

---

To form a nucleus of the Universal Brotherhood of Humanity without distinction of race, creed, sex, caste or colour.

---

quote:

---

Often what seems to truely bug people is that the LCC has valid Orders, it is independent and has a different view of spirituality and attitude towards personal freedom to many of the larger churches. Often people can find "different" threatening, I think that the church's "otherness" is the real "thorn in their side". Not what non-ecclesiastical organisations its memebers may belong to.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
An interesting question would be is it possible to receive communion / fully participate in LCC liturgy and not be a believer, or be a member of another faith?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
That is actually the point I'm trying to make. What I mean is the C of E do that as well as the LCC, on the local administering the Sacrament, but the LCC Church say thats there teaching and way the C of E doesn't.

In that sense the C of E position lacks some integrity. i reckon.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
http://www.lcc.cc/ecem/eveleinf/chakras.htm

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
A question for our LCC friends or those who know about there interesting ways.

Is it possible to tell a LCC church from its appearance? Does it have anything special about it - a prominent symbol or something?

---

quote:

---

It is normal for all Liberal Catholic churches to have suspended "ray crosses" with consecrated jewels inside them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
[QB] Thats very interesting, and it would be lovely to know more about this special symbolism. Do these rasy crosses deliver spiritual energy, for example.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
[QUOTE]

Do these ray crosses deliver spiritual energy, for example.

The consecrated jewel aspect is interesting as well. I know some people like crystals and use them in prayer or healing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
Does it have anything special about it - a prominent symbol or soemthing?

---

quote:

---

the image of Christ (Maitreya) in our churches is unique to our tradition within Christianity.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mamacita:
Welcome, LibCath2000 and thanks for your post. If you feel so inclined, there's a New Members thread on the All Saints board where you can officially introduce yourself.


Mamacita, Eccles Host

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eddy:
Any chance of some kind person showing a pic of that image. We do seem to be a bit short of pics of the interiors of Lib cath churches, which is a great shame I reckon.

---

The LCC-Theosophia Synod in Orlando has a picture of Christ on their main-page.

http://www.lcc-orlando.org/
 

---

Posted by LibCath2000 (# 15363) on :
 
Some Liberal Catholic church interiors... enjoy...


Church of St. Francis, Villa Park, IL, USA

Church of St. Gabriel & All Angels, Fairfield, IA, USA

Church of St. John the Beloved, Melbourne, Australia
 

---

Posted by celestialstarfire (# 15236) on :
 
Hey....earlier in this thread I mentioned the Seven Rays and the Ray Crosses. I came across today a publication by the late Johannes Van Alphen (Catechism 99), which I believe was issued back when he was Presiding Bishop of the Church.

He wrote a very interesting paragraph on the nature of the seven rays and their role with the jewels in the Liturgy. If anyone's interested message me an I'll see if I can send you the paragraph.

There's also a really good explaination in the book 'The Sacraments' an abridged version of 'The Science of The Sacraments' published by the St Alban Press in 1993, edited by the late Sten von Krusenstierna (also another former Presiding Bishop). Its not a volume that I've not seen much comment on, but having recently got a copy I can see how significantly more useful it is than previous editions, or atleast for me as a priest it is.

It has a much better lay out, and sub-deadings, a better introduction etc. and its been edited to make it easier for "non-mystical" Liberal Catholics to understand the more esoteric aspects of the tradition.

Its just a shame that F.W. Pigott's work 'The Parting of The Ways' has not been republished. It could do with a slight edit (some items are obsolete as they are purely of historical interest) and then I am sure it would be of great interest to aspiring Liberal Catholics.
 

---

Posted by LibCath2000 (# 15363) on :
 
Just curious...

Is anyone on this thread still a member of the Liberal Catholic movement?

Or am I the only one?

LC2K
 

---

Posted by celestialstarfire (# 15236) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by LibCath2000:
Just curious...

Is anyone on this thread still a member of the Liberal Catholic movement?

Or am I the only one?

LC2K

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LibCath2000:
Patriotic_Mason,

Are you part of the original LCC or the LCCI?

LC2K

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by celestialstarfire:
...the current move towards re-uniting the church might be worth investigating.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LibCath2000:
Patriotic_Mason,

I'm a member of the LCC, Province of the USA, under the Rt. Rev. Graham Wale.

So, while I commend the efforts of the other churches in pursuing full, corporate and sacramental unity, I know it is an offer that is not going to be considered by our Church.

Our refusal to ordain women, will be the primary reason for this.

What are your thoughts?

LC2K

---

quote:

---

Well I think that's unfortunate, but I know there are those who honestly feel women are not suitable vessels for the Priesthood. I would rather hope for something more alone the lines of the Anglicans, who in certain provences allow those parishes who cannot accept female clergy the right to retain male only clergy.

---

You're absolutely right about there being those who do not believe that women can or should be ordained.

I am one of those people.

In fact, today, I believe that we remain the only group which still holds to that position, within Liberal Catholicism.

From my perspective, the other groups which have split, are becoming hardly indistinguishable from the myriad of independent Catholic groups that already exist.

If the Church embraced the Anglican model, it would be disastrous, in my opinion.

"Big tent" models DO NOT work. And in fact, it's the primary reason why I didn't join the Anglicans in the first place.

Personally, I want to see my Church become more embracing of our Catholic heritage, without any lessening the mystical interpretations of our spiritual forefathers.

Since, we are the heirs of Old Catholicism, and since the Utrecht churches themselves now ordain women, I think we have a vital role to play in opening dialogue with other like-minded groups.

It will be interesting to see how it all plays out, we shall wait and see.

LC2K
 

---

Posted by patriotic_mason (# 15246) on :
 
LC2K,

Would you mind giving a brief rationale why you (personally or the LCC generally) do not accept females in the Priesthood?

Is it based on +Leadbeater or the historic tradition for example?
 

---

Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :
 
Please don't. Discussion of women's ordination, or lack of, should take place on the Dead Horses board. You are free to start a new thread there or join one of their old ones.

Discussions of contentious hardy perenials; like women's ordination, homosexuality, abortion and biblical inerrancy, are confined to the one board to avoid overwhelming the ship.

Think²
Eccles Host
 

---

Posted by patriotic_mason (# 15246) on :
 
Maybe a PM then?
 

---

Posted by LibCath2000 (# 15363) on :
 
Think²,

I wasn't planning on discussing the issue.

I was merely stating the position of my Church-a position which is deeply rooted in our tradition.

I will say no more or less. However, if Patriotic_Mason would like to discuss it further with me, he/she can PM me.

LC2K
 

---

Posted by Think² (# 1984) on :
 
What you posted was fine, I was posting to unissue the invitation to expand into a dicussion - on this thread.

I suspect the reasoning in the lcc for non ordination of women might be somewhat unusual - if so, it might well be worth its own thread on the Dead Horses board.
 

---

Posted by LibCath2000 (# 15363) on :
 
Anyway......

Back to the original topic...

As a Liberal Catholic, former Roman, and a Church-hopping enthusiast ... I can attest that in the Liberal Rite, there is certainly more of a "mystical" or transcendent feel to the liturgy- a feeling more conducive of Eastern Orthodox worship.

Of course the vestments of the Liberal Rite are Western as are our customs. But the prayers, in the vernacular and the congregational responses are evocative of the East; at least for me.

Perhaps, one of our other Liberal Catholics on the Forum can provide their input in regards to the actual "feel" of our worship.

LC2K (Also wishing everyone a very joyous Christmas season)
 

---

Posted by celestialstarfire (# 15236) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by LibCath2000:


Personally, I want to see my Church become more embracing of our Catholic heritage, without any lessening the mystical interpretations of our spiritual forefathers.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by celestialstarfire:


I have seriously examined both sides of the whole "women" debate and I think from a Catholic perspective that this has been answered in a very ingenious way by the "Mother" Church.

The re-invigouration of the order of Deaconess is as far as I can see the best solution. It enables women to take part fully in the pastoral life of the Church, whilst not denying the traditionally masculine role of Priest.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by celestialstarfire:
LC2K, whilst I can appreciate your wanting the Church to lean back into its Catholic Heritage, I would be concerned that this could lead to "Romanism". As Bps Leadbeater and Wedgwood both acknowledge, Rome is a good reference point, however our Liberal Catholic Church must be a progression from the confines of the Roman Church. We may want to dialogue more with our other catholic brethren, but it would be dangerous to not be mindful of our own identity. Some of the other Liberal Rite jurisdictions have lent back into Romanism and they run the risk of becoming bodies which parody Rome. Rather than look at what our other Catholic brethren are doing and learning from them, they seem to want to emulate the Roman Church, who are themselves beginning to suffer from an identity chrisis. This inevitably leads to ridicule, and to me atleast would be a sign of building ones house upon the sand.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LibCath2000:


For us, the Catholic element provides the history and structure necessary to effectuate the Divine plan of God here on earth. And similarly, when theosophy is properly understood, as a form of mystical interpretation, we begin to better understand who we are as a Church.

---

quote:

---

instead of living in quiet isolation, as has been our practice.

---

quote:

---

The idea that we would become untrue to our identity is not a concern of mine, as I know that most of us are Liberal Catholics by choice. We've learned and continue to learn that it is possible to balance our Catholic heritage and our theosophical roots.

---

quote:

---

It is and has always been my contention, that the Liberal Rite is best suited to reach the spiritual needs of many who cannot find what they are searching for in the larger churches. The qualities disctive to the Liberal Rite as discussed previously are excellent and open the way for others to find what they seek without them having to abandon Christianity.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by patriotic_mason:

... the St Mychal Judge parish in Dallas, Texas (formerly LCCI) has joined the North American Old Catholic Church which is currently seeking to be the official representative of the Utrecht Union here in the USA, while still using the Liberal Rite mass.

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Perhaps, one of our other Liberal Catholics on the Forum can provide their input in regards to the actual "feel" of our worship.

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Originally posted by Eddy:

Another thing is the Liturgy just in English.

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Originally posted by Eddy:
Yes thats a interesting one. It would be good to know how it compares with say TEC or RCC worship?

Another thing is the Liturgy just in English. Mention has been made of soem congregations in US and Australia and perhaps a few people in the UK, but what about other languages, has the liturgy been recited in other languages of the world?

There seems a big German influence. maybe German then is used sometimes?

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Originally posted by Eddy:
That Brazil webiste was a good help to see where LCC church is. Thanks for that. It seems to be West Europe, US, Brazil, Australia.

So are there no African liturgies or Asian liturgies in LCC?

That made me wonder if in the LCC church there is just one liturgy of Mass which is then translated, rather than letting local people develop their own Mass in their own culture.

Does LCC church ignore local culture and have a culture of its own?

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Originally posted by Eddy:
You know I can see where you guys are coming from, but I can't quite see why using traditional language is so necessary for the 'energy'. I'd have thought the energy was from ritual and action more than from specific words.

It seems to me that if translation into other languages is alowed then translation into modern English would be OK too - or have I missed a point here?

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Originally posted by LibCath2000:
being the heir to the Old Catholic tradition in Britain, has always used a vernacular liturgy.

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Originally posted by LibCath2000:


Since the LCC liturgy was devised, aside from minor revisions, it has not undergone many changes.

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Originally posted by LibCath2000:

To use a modernized text in our worship would simply be incongruous with what we believe.

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Originally posted by celestialstarfire:
I'm not trying to disagree with you all the time...[/QB]

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It could even theoretically be possible to construct a "Liberal Catholic version" of the Novus Ordo...

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Originally posted by Eddy:
But my point seems to have been left out here. You are saying English language old fashioned trad language is the best.

But I'm saying when you translate into other languages do you translate into the vernacular - that is the language of the people or do you translate into a bygone version of the vernacular?

if you translate into a moder form in translation then why not a modern form of English?

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The Spanish version of the Liturgy uses a traditional form rather than a contemporary form.
 

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Posted by Eddy (# 3583) on :
 
OK thanks for that its clear to me now and thanks for taking the time to explain what the LCC church is about on this one.

This then makes me think about those churches that have trad liturgies. They sometimes have modern or para liturgies at other times - like children's liturgy, or youth services, as well as the traditional Mass.

Has LCC developed this tradition, or is it more strict in sticking to traditional liturgy in all its worship forms?
 

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Posted by LibCath2000 (# 15363) on :
 

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Originally posted by Eddy:

OK thanks for that its clear to me now and thanks for taking the time to explain what the LCC church is about on this one.

This then makes me think about those churches that have trad liturgies. They sometimes have modern or para liturgies at other times - like children's liturgy, or youth services, as well as the traditional Mass.

Has LCC developed this tradition, or is it more strict in sticking to traditional liturgy in all its worship forms?

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Originally posted by Eddy:
So no experimental liturgy, or liturgies for youth or children or whatever...

Its a shame if not because it seems LCC church has so much to offer

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Originally posted by Eddy:
So no experimental liturgy, or liturgies for youth or children or whatever...

Its a shame if not because it seems LCC church has so much to offer

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Originally posted by LibCath2000:

I believe that one would be hard pressed to say that the original LCC Rite is diametrically distinctive to the liturgy used today.

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Originally posted by Eddy:
if you translate into a moder form in translation then why not a modern form of English?

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Originally posted by Eddy:
Has LCC developed this tradition, or is it more strict in sticking to traditional liturgy in all its worship forms?

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Originally posted by patriotic_mason:
The Spanish version of the Liturgy uses a traditional form rather than a contemporary form.

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Originally posted by celestialstarfire:

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Originally posted by Eddy:
Has LCC developed this tradition, or is it more strict in sticking to traditional liturgy in all its worship forms?

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In the 1970's extensive work was done to see if the Eucharistic Rites of the Church could be re-orientated in the same way that Vatican II had altered the rites of the Roman Church. However, I believe it was decided that we could not adequately adapt the rites and a complete re-write was seen as out of the question.

There was also work done to create an LCC version of the 'Folk Mass' phenomena. But this too died a death.

Under Bishop Sten von Krusenstierna there was also much liturgical work done relating to the Holy lady Mary. Marian Benediction and Compline were developed, as well as other rites.

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Originally posted by LibCath2000:

You write, as if you speak for the entire Liberal Catholic movement.

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As to the liturgy being "verbose", I do not find this to be true. But of course, that is matter of opinion.

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Originally posted by Eddy:
Its the new and experimental that LCC church seems short of.

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Marian Benediction sounds interesting. I know LCC church have a Marian service but I didnt realise it also had a special Mary Benediction. It would be great to see a video clip of that worship.

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Have you read 'The Secret life of Bees?' The group there have special rites focussing on our lady - its fiction, but v interesting, you know.

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Originally posted by celestialstarfire:

Can we move on a bit and back to the Liturgy?

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Originally posted by celestialstarfire:

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Originally posted by patriotic_mason:
The Spanish version of the Liturgy uses a traditional form rather than a contemporary form.

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Hey Mason,

Was this edition of 'The Liturgy' published by the "Old Synod" or whats known as the LCCI outside of America ?

[Code fix. Mamacita, Host]

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Originally posted by LibCath2000:

Also, I could not find any video of a Marian service in the LCC (and in fact there are few videos online about Liberal Catholicism), but I did find this.

LC2K

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Originally posted by Eddy:

With a name like 'Liberal catholic' I am surprised that the LCC church haven't had a go at this. The C of E has traditional liturgy as well as not so traditional and it seems to work well together.

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Originally posted by LQ:
My goodness, scariest concelebration ever!

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Originally posted by LQ:
My goodness, scariest concelebration ever!

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Originally posted by leo:

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Originally posted by LQ:
My goodness, scariest concelebration ever!

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That was a page completely black? Does that mean something?

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Originally posted by leo:

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Originally posted by LQ:
My goodness, scariest concelebration ever!

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That was a page completely black? Does that mean something?

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As Eddy noted, it is a QuickTime file. It's a very short clip showing at least nine priests (maybe more in the back, I couldn't quite make them out) in more-or-less matching chasubles, facing the congo and beginning what I think was a Eucharistic Prayer (couldn't quite make it out). The title of the page was "Retreat 2002," so I assume it was a special event with several clergy gathered. Nonetheless...
 

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Posted by patriotic_mason (# 15246) on :
 
Hasn't this thread run it's course yet?
 

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Posted by LibCath2000 (# 15363) on :
 

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Originally posted by patriotic_mason:
Hasn't this thread run it's course yet?

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Originally posted by Eddy:
In the LCC Church liturgy in English why are words

Ite Missa est
Deo gratias

used

- Before the blessing - thats a bit odd isnt it.

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Originally posted by Eddy:
Really LQ I didnt know that. The dismissal came before the blessing in the old Latin Rite, did it.

Still not sure why though the LCC church should revert mto latin at that point. maybe the translators forgot that bit!

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Originally posted by Eddy:
How is the angel called at the beginning of the Mass - is there a formula provided for that?

It also suggests Angels speak latin but not English...

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Originally posted by Eddy:

It also suggests Angels speak latin but not English...

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Originally posted by Eddy:


When we call the angel is that a specific angel - as gabriel to our Lady, or any angel?

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Originally posted by Eddy:
I know in the Missal there is somewhere a passage about the angel taking the worship up into heaven - maybe not quite that - and someone kind soul can correct me on it, I hope. Thats the idea though.

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Originally posted by leo:

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Originally posted by Eddy:
I know in the Missal there is somewhere a passage about the angel taking the worship up into heaven - maybe not quite that - and someone kind soul can correct me on it, I hope. Thats the idea though.

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It's in the tridentine Canon: Súpplices te rogámus, omnípotens Deus: jube hæc perférri per manus sancti Angeli tui in sublíme altáre tuum, in conspéctu divínæ majestátis tuæ: ut quotquot ex hac altáris participatióne sacrosánctum Fíii tui, Cor+pus, et Sán+guinem sumpsérimus, omni benedictióne cælésti et grátia repleámur. Per eúndem Christum Dóminum nostrum. Amen.

or

Humbly we beseech Thee, almighty God, to command that these our offerings be carried by the hands of Thy holy Angel to Thine Altar on high, in the sight of Thy divine Majesty, so that those of us who shall receive the most sacred Body + and Blood + of Thy Son by partaking thereof from this Altar may be filled with every grace and heavenly blessing: Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.

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Originally posted by leo:
It's in the tridentine Canon

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Originally posted by LQ:

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Originally posted by leo:
It's in the tridentine Canon

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And IIRC the Church of England retained it until the 1552 prayer book.

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Originally posted by LQ:

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Originally posted by leo:
It's in the tridentine Canon

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And IIRC the Church of England retained it until the 1552 prayer book.

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Originally posted by Eddy:


It makes me wonder if like Freemasons there is a higher order of church that members can move into. I mean as the Freemasons have special lodges you can move on to - I think I am right here, so I just wonder if the LCC church has secret ceremonies or rites for certian deeply committed members.

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Originally posted by Eddy:

It makes me wonder if like Freemasons there is a higher order of church that members can move into. I mean as the Freemasons have special lodges you can move on to - I think I am right here, so I just wonder if the LCC church has secret ceremonies or rites for certian deeply committed members.

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Originally posted by LQ:
Hmm, I flirted with Liberal Catholicism in my teen years, but I must say I didn't know that members could be Freemasons. It rather undermines the "Catholic" bit. (Of course, we've the same problem in Anglicanism).

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Originally posted by Eddy:
Thanks for that patriotic_mason. We've heard that the LCC church has different branches etc. is what you say holding for all those branches.

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Given the friendly relations between LCC church and Freemasons - through shared members, makes me wonder if the LCC church ritual has been influenced by masonic symbolism or rites. I say this because it seems that the LCC church is younger than Freemasonary.

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