Thread: Eccles: Father's Day and other such secular marketing-fests in church Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
Our parish clergy seem to feel that Fathers Day takes precedence over Trinity Sunday in scheduling the main Sunday morning worship. And at least a large minority - maybe more - of the congregation agree.

(I don't, pretty obviously, but this is Ecclesiantics not Hell, so no need to discuss my feelings)

So we have a liturgy based on this one which Common Worship nicked from New Patterns. Which I have to say I find a confusing mixture. And I get to lead it - after some abbreviation and re-arrangement.

Anyway, grumpiness aside, seeing as people expect such secular events to be celebrated in church - and trust me, they do - what can we do in the liturgy to get the most out of it?

And what if anything is your church doing tomorrow? Or if you see this after the service, what if anything was done? (It can't only be us can it? Someone wrote that liturgy!) Did you mark Father's Day in any way? Did it work? Was it worth it?

How could that service be improved? (other than by scrapping it)

(And why didn't I post this OP before we'd finished planning the service? Oh well, I suppose there is a No Homework rule)

[ 29. September 2011, 07:35: Message edited by: Spike ]
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
Our Parish Mass tomorrow will celebrate the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity, with appropriate hymns and readings, but I'll probably pop a mention of fathers into the Prayers of the People - a little nod towards St. Hallmark......

Ian J.
 

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Posted by seasick (# 48) on :
 
We'll be keeping Trinity Sunday and the most there'll be for Fathers' Day will be a mention in the intercessions. I'd completely agree that the Holy Trinity should take precedence.

If I were using that service (which would be on a Sunday of ordinary time) then I would take selective parts of it and incorporate them into a more normal looking service - perhaps the intercessions (although I find that versicle and response a bit cringey) and the confession. Perhaps it might be more useful as a separate service (ie not the principal act of worship on Sunday) specially aimed for families who have links to the church but don't attend regularly - perhaps those who've come for baptism or something. I think you could make something of it in that way as an outreach effort and you could encourage those of your congregation who are keen on celebrating Fathers' Day to come along to welcome the visiting families!
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
The relevant events include (but are not neccessarily limited to):

• Remembrance Day and Remembrance Sunday. This is the most compulsory of the lot. Also I think the only one which really fits in the church calendar. Its St Martin's Day, but more importantly it fits in as part of a whole season of remembering the dead around All Saints and All Souls and - in England - the secular Bonfire festivities. Reformation Day gets in there as well! As long as you can avoid militarism and nationalism this one works.
• New Year's Eve. The December 31st Watchnight is traditionally the best-attended service of the year in our parish. I have never been to one.
• St Valentine's Day (as an excuse for going on about sexual love rather than a memorial of an almost unknown Italian saint)
• Mother's Day. Revived or invented under that name in America but in Britain conflated with the fourth Sunday of Lent (Laetere) and the subject of a futile campaign to call it "Mothering Sunday". So there is a church calendrical excuse for it on this side of the Atlantic. Doesn't stop the services being almost terminally naff though.
• Father's Day. Completely artificial attempt by marketing people to duplicate the sales opportunity of Mother's Day.
• Church Birthday. (Or anniversary of founding etc) Probably a bigger deal in the kind of denominations that don't usually name churches after saints. But we make more fuss over our anniversay in summer than over our saint's day in winter. Excuse for a barbecue.
• Harvest Festival. Can be embarrasing.

 

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Posted by uffda (# 14310) on :
 
It's Holy Trinity for this Lutheran, with a blessing for fathers at the end of the liturgy after announcements. But I wonder if "St. Hallmark" might get more attention than usual by preachers intimidated by the Holy Trinity festival.
 

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Posted by Anglican_Brat (# 12349) on :
 
Meh, seems to me, it is a perfect day for Unitarians to preach:

"As this is Father's Day, let me preach on the sole divinity of God the Father".

[ 18. June 2011, 18:18: Message edited by: Anglican_Brat ]
 

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Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
It's Trinity in two of the team churches and St Alban in the third (patronal) - but that's mostly just the collects - I think there's a phrase in the Eucharistic prayer about the saints additionally and a couple of other comments here and there. We don't do Fathers' Day.

We do celebrate Remembrance Day - but the listing of names and uniformed groups happens at a joint churches civic event in the afternoon, after the laying of the wreaths and Last Post. The main church services have a laying on of wreaths at the war memorials in church before the service starts, and then continues in ordinary time as normal.

Mothering Sunday is one of the uniformed groups parade days. The mothers/women all get a pot plant and it's an all age lay led service usually - the one we get that month. This year the story was Jesus getting left behind at the temple as a child, enacted by Brownies, supervised by me, which is why that one is carved on my memory.

Harvest (and Christingle) also tend to be the all-age lay-led services, and also uniformed group parade services.
 

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Posted by Geneviève (# 9098) on :
 
We will be celebrating Trinity Sunday. We will have a prayer for fathers in the intercessions (which is how we treat Mother's day).

Just for fun, we are also doing the end of the year Sunday school closing and a blood drive.


 

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Posted by Circuit Rider (# 13088) on :
 
Same here. We'll celebrate Trinity Sunday and give a mention to Father's Day. Very brief. Great idea to include it in the prayer ... hadn't thought of that.
 

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Posted by Twangist (# 16208) on :
 

quote:

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As long as you can avoid militarism and nationalism this one works.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Circuit Rider:
Same here. We'll celebrate Trinity Sunday and give a mention to Father's Day. Very brief. Great idea to include it in the prayer ... hadn't thought of that.

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That's what we're doing too. I put the White paraments out for Trinity Sunday. Our minister of course preaches on what he wants, but customarily confines his mention of secular events to the Congregational Prayer. He may or may not choose to riff on the day in the sermon, but then he's just using it as a segue into particular Biblical ideas. Anecdote of the Week, as it were.
 

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Posted by Low Treason (# 11924) on :
 
We shall be celebrating Trinity Sunday as usual and I trust there will be no reference whatsoever to secular marketing ploys. However there may be cake with coffee afterwards...

We do mark Remembrance Sunday unfortunately, although I am not sure whether there is anything more than the obligatory laying of wreaths at memorials and the singing of certain hymns. For some unaccountable reason I always seem to be otherwise engaged on that Sunday

On Mothering Sunday we celebrate Mother Church and usually present a tasteful bunch of roses to Our Lady.

New Year? Too busy partying to go to church.

St Valentine? No.

Church birthday? Well, we celebrate our Patronal festival with a great deal of pomp and circumstance, otherwise the anniversary of the dedication of the church does get a mention in passing.

Harvest Festival? Most certainly. Despite ours being a city church, I have always pushed for this because I believe we tend to take God's bounty for granted (and besides that I am a country boy at heart). However it is always done in the best possible taste of course!
 

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Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :
 
Our pastor tries to ignore the various Hallmark and jingoistic red-letter days as much as possible, but I don't think that the people in our congregation understand why.
 

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Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
I don't think I've ever been in a church that's marked Father's Day. Mothering Sunday, yes.

Tomorrow will be Trinity Sunday through and through; frankly, I'd find Fathering Sunday, if there were such a thing, much easier to handle!
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Twangist:

quote:

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As long as you can avoid militarism and nationalism this one works.

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that's a rare event

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quote:

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Originally posted by uffda:
It's Holy Trinity for this Lutheran, with a blessing for fathers at the end of the liturgy after announcements.

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quote:

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Last winter a group of students and teachers of a well-known seminary spent a semester "working" on a "liturgy" centered on the following "themes": the S.S.T., ecology, and the flood in Pakistan. No doubt they "meant well". It is their presuppositions which are wrong: that the traditional worship can have no "relevance" to these themes and has nothing to reveal about them, and that unless a "theme" is somehow clearly spelled out in the liturgy or made into its "focus", it is obviously outside the spiritual reach of liturgical experience.

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• Father's Day - won't get a mention
• Remembrance Sunday - BIG deal! We'll get probably 2 or even 3 times the congregation. I would get hung drawn and quartered if we didn't do a special service that day. But it does sort of fit into the "Kingdom" almost-season and doesn't seem in any way out of place
• New Years' Eve - we don't do anything for this and I've never been asked for anything. Go and spend the time with your non-Christian friends rather than remain in a holy huddle - that's my view
• St Valentine's Day - won't get a mention. Too hopelessly entangled with secular myths about LURV to be redeemed.
• Mothering Sunday - difficult one this. Mothering Sunday was been around a lot longer than the secular Mother's Day and it is a shame that in England the two have become fused together. My personal preference would be to ignore it, but once again there would be uproar. So we have to have a special All Age Worship service. I try to keep it tackiness-free and we do get SOME extra people on that Sunday.
• Church Birthday - we'll put on an extra special service in the afternoon on the Sunday nearest the Patronal festival for "our" saint. It helps people to reconnect with the history of the church, which is no bad thing. Any suggestions of organising outings or BBQs are steadfastedly ignored by yours truly. If someone wants to take on that burden, let them. But I'm not. But the reality is that no-one else wants to have to organise anything either.
• Harvest - as with Remembrance, this is a BIG deal. We get a lot of visitors on that day (though not as many as for Remembrance), so it is an important "shop window" for us.

quote:

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"After the completion of this book, the Lord called together His twelve disciples, who had followed Him in the world; and a day later He sent them all forth throughout the spiritual world to preach the Gospel, that the Lord God Jesus Christ reigns, and His kingdom shall be for ever and ever, as foretold by Daniel (7:13, 14) and in Revelation (11:15):
'Blessed are they who come to the wedding supper of the Lamb' Rev. 19:9.
This happened on the nineteenth of June in the year 1770. This was meant by the Lord's saying:
'He will send His angels, and they will gather together His chosen people from the bounds of the heavens on one side as far as the bounds of the heavens on the other.' Matt. 24:31."
Emanuel Swedenborg, "True Christianity" 791

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quote:

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Originally posted by Amos:
The Dean and Chapter of Christ Church, Oxford replaced their principal service on Passion Sunday this year with a celebration of the Oxford Literary Festival. The preacher they'd invited was scandalized--I wasn't there, but have read the sermon.

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Passion Sunday or Palm Sunday?
ie Lent 5 or the Palm Sunday of the Passion?
 

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Posted by Sacred London (# 15220) on :
 
No mention of Fathers' Day at all in this bit of north London. Holy Trinity celebrated with options from CW Times and Seasons.
 

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Posted by Pearl B4 Swine (# 11451) on :
 
Our sign board says "Father's Day". But there are plenty of Trinity-ish items in the service. One of the hymns is 'This is my Father's world', which people can interpret however they like.

On July 3 (day before Independence Day) we will have God in red, white & blue stars and stripes for ever, and pretending that s/he is American, through and through. We know he loves us best.
 

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Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Sacred London:

quote:

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Originally posted by Amos:
The Dean and Chapter of Christ Church, Oxford replaced their principal service on Passion Sunday this year with a celebration of the Oxford Literary Festival. The preacher they'd invited was scandalized--I wasn't there, but have read the sermon.

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Passion Sunday or Palm Sunday?
ie Lent 5 or the Palm Sunday of the Passion?

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Passion Sunday, that is, Lent 5.
 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
At our backstreet A-C place:

Fathers' Day - Trinity Sunday, as I said above, with a prayer for all fathers. We were missing a couple of families (one of which had gone to visit their father's grave, whilst the other took Dad out to lunch....);

Remembrance Sunday - kept as 2nd Sunday before Advent, but with a 2-minute silence, suitable prayers and the Last Post etc. (our thurifer is an ex-miliary bandsman....). Definitely no militarism here, though we do have members who have relatives currently serving in the Forces;

New Year's Eve - no Watchnight service, but we do celebrate Mary, the Mother of God, on New Year's Day ;

St. Valentine's Day - who he? (i.e. not observed);

Mothering Sunday - yes, duly observed, with Scouts etc. attending, flowers to every family represented in church. The rose-pink chasuble gets one of its two annual outings;

Church Birthday - we observe the anniversary of the dedication of the church (in February) at the usual Parish Mass, but we keep the Patronal Festival (in October) with an afternoon Sung Mass on the nearest Sunday (to cater for visitors from other churches);

Harvest Festival - another service with the Scouts, usually quite an enjoyable do;

Back-to-Church-Sunday - kept for the previous couple of years, but not this year (we find that peeps invite other peeps along to church all the time, so there's no real need for a special one-off effort, Father says);

Sea Sunday - usually the second Sunday in July in the UK, when we celebrate and pray for seafarers around the world. We are a dockside parish, so this is appropriate (and completely uncommercialised!). We hope Scouts etc. and Sea Cadets will attend this year.

Ian J.
 

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Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
On Mother's Day we were invited to name our mothers during the intercessions -- simultaneously, whispered or silent -- so it took less than a minute. I imagine we might do the same for our fathers today. Everything else will be Trinity Sunday.
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
That went better than I expected. Mainly due to guest preacher who was very, very, good.

Longest service for while though - a few minutes short of two hours.
 

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Posted by matthew_dixon (# 12278) on :
 
I didn't actually bother putting anything about Father's Day into the prayers at our place - partly because I forgot all about it, partly because it's a secular invention, and partly because it was Trinity Sunday. Had it been a random Sunday of ordinary time, I might have made a bigger deal of it.
 

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Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Grrr ... I'm on Sunday school so I'll avoid the main service but I doubt there'll be much reference to Trinity Sunday - although there was the year before last ...

A Baptist church I used to go to once had 'Toilet Sunday' where someone gave a presentation (complete with toilet) on how to save water and help people in developing countries who lacked access to modern sanitation.

It didn't become a regular fixture in the calendar.

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That's a shame. I've found that when it comes to toilets, being 'regular' is a necessary feature!


 

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Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :
 
No Fathers' Day at our Sally Army this morning.
a number of reasons - it's a secular invention, and also I don't have a father because of divorce, so why should I pretend to enjoy it?

Come to think of it, we didn't do the Trinity either this morning; but I am doing the Trinity this evening, so I can be excused

I think this morning that I did pray to the Father.
 

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Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
We had a quick mention, like "Happy Father's Day to the fathers" at the beginning of the sermon, in addition to the scheduled blessing of fathers prayer right before the usual blessing.

Even though the holiday is invented, pastoral sensitivity suggests at least a mention within the intercessions.

Our liturgical order, including readings and hymns, was geared for the Festival of the Holy Trinity. By pure coincidence, we sang Father most holy, which is trinitarian in set-up. We didn't even realize that it looks like a very 'fatherly' hymn until today.
 

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Posted by Emma Louise (# 3571) on :
 
Family Service focussing on fathers day here - but it was ok. Sort of a trinity-sunday - God as Father - fathers day mishmash.

There was a video clip from somewhere (american?) about the prodigal son and a bit of talky about God's love. Had little post it notes to write on and take to the front under various headings to do with dads. Acknowledged that many had "issues" with dads or dads that had died. A bit on trinity with the water and ice as ever....

The bit I liked best was the greeting and blessing which I didn't recognise. I assume it might be a John Bell type one but not sure.

No communion and mainly Reader led apart from the baby thanksgiving in the middle!
 

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Posted by Superslug (# 7024) on :
 
3rd Sunday in the month so we had baptisms. The lit, hymns were all straight Trinity Sunday but there was no way we could tackle the trinity in any depth in the sermon.

I skipped the gospel procession and read the gospel reading within the shortened sermon which managed to cover Baptism, the Trinity & Fathers Day in 6 minutes!

I'm afraid that much of the symbolism had to speak for itself. Which I suppose is the point really!

SS
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I'm afraid I did end up in the service this morning as they had enough Sunday school helpers. Sermon on healings and miracles in the Acts of the Apostles from a Pentie who is a member of our Anglican congregation and an RE teacher. I'm afraid I walked out ...

Otherwise I'd have either had a panic attack (he was going on favourably about Benny Hinn ) or heckled him. Instead, I walked out, went home and peeled the vegetables for Sunday dinner (lunch to southerners).
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
I was surprised at Winchester Cathedral today to hear a long sermon almost entirely about Father's Day (although Trinity Sunday did get a mention). It was Choral Mattins, though, so the Liturgy was unchanged.
 

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Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
Not sure if we had Father's Day in the intercessions, the lovely caring dulcet tones in which they were delivered were an inaudible mumble that got quieter every time someone (me) tried to up the volume on the sound system.

The youngest children came back in with cards they'd made.
 

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Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 
As matthew_dixon has said no mention of it with us. I did buy my dad a cupcake at the market* but that was it. Saying goodbye to two congregation members was more noted -- if only because one had chosen two of the hymns -- and the vicar's husband's birthday was marked over coffee!

Of Ken's list we only note Remembrance Sunday, Mothering Sunday and Harvest.

Carys

*which is more than I've ever done because I don't believe in it!
 

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Posted by Celtic Knotweed (# 13008) on :
 
I'd completely forgotten it was Father's Day today. Interestingly, the service I was ringing for was quieter than usual. I only ring there once a month, but I'm sure there are usually a few more families there than I saw today.

Just checked the church website. Service was for Trinity Sunday, no mention of Father's Day on the site, and it's Parish Communion both this week and my 'normal' week to be there.
 

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Posted by Graven Image (# 8755) on :
 
I reported earlier.

quote:

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I am guest preaching at our local Methodist church and just received a copy of the service. The name of the service is printed as:

Trinity Sunday/First Sunday after Pentecost,
Peace with Justice Sunday, Father's Day, and Juneteeth

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Just returned and they did it all, yet somehow it all worked. At the start of the service everyone was asked to name their father or an important father figure in their life and prayers were offered in thanksgiving. The lay pastor mentioned that it was the season of Pentecost and each person was given a red paper flame and we were told to hold it up during those things we could support in a "Peace and Justice Creed." Juneteeth was explained as an example of Peace and Justice. I then preached on the Trinity and it all tied in with what had gone before, much to my surprise it really did seem all connected.
 

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Posted by The Royal Spaniel (# 40) on :
 
Feast of the Holy Trinity here......
Not a mention of Father's day thank heavens
Sermon by one of our lay readers on the Trinity which she also tried to tie in - quite successfully and in an interesting way - with the Gospel reading which in the CiW BCP was the meeting with Jesus and Nicodemus ( John 2 vv 1-15)
Psalm 150 - of course.........
 

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Posted by 3rdFooter (# 9751) on :
 
Ain't we all so pious.

Father, Son and Holy Spirit day here in Babylon. Holy Trinity was the only subject at the Sunday service and at the Ordination Service.

Mrs F did the intercessions in the morning. Picked up the Justice references from Isaiah 40 and ignored Father's day completely.

[ 19. June 2011, 22:27: Message edited by: 3rdFooter ]
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
I'm finding this thread highly ironic, given the number of churches - Anglican ones alone, let alone anyone else - who have all but given up referring to God as "Father", preferring something along the lines of the "Creator, Redeemer, Sustainer" heresy.
 

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Posted by Yerevan (# 10383) on :
 
For some reason my sort of current church went hog wild on Father's Day this year. I bailed...as I already do on Mothering and Remembrance Sundays...so have no idea what they did.

quote:

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Acknowledged that many had "issues" with dads or dads that had died.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ken:

Longest service for while though - a few minutes short of two hours.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I'm finding this thread highly ironic, given the number of churches - Anglican ones alone, let alone anyone else - who have all but given up referring to God as "Father", preferring something along the lines of the "Creator, Redeemer, Sustainer" heresy.

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I *read* about those but I very rarely come across any in real life.

In our evening service sermon the vicar said something that surprised me - twenty or thirty years ago she rarely heard people preaching about the Trinity but the concept seems to have been getting more prominent and more important recently. I can't say I've noticed myself.

But, so far at least, its more or less always been "Father, Son and Holy Spirit" as written in the liturgy, in whatever flavour of CofE church I've been in. (I can't speak for the very nice URC people down the road...)
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I'm afraid, Ken, that in more liberal establishments around here you get 'Creator, Redeemer and Friend' and so forth.

I've had words with them over it ...
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:

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Originally posted by ken:

Longest service for while though - a few minutes short of two hours.

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The liturgy you linked to must have taken all of twenty minutes. How did you manage to spin it out so long?

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That's a rhetorical question, right? I mean you do know how these things work really, I assume.

But for those of us whe have never met mild-mannered Anglican Evanglicalism slowly moving up the candle in all its low-key glory, the service went like this:

• Choir and clergy arrive at choir stalls about four minutes late because vicar was explaining something to someone out the front
• Non-liturgical greeting, includsing explanation of why we are doing things differently from normal, that it is Trinity Sunday and we have moved from Easter season to Ordinary Time, and that it is also Father's Day, and that the Men's Group planned the service together and are sitting at the front, and that we are having another service at 4pm at another church in the team which will be more about Trinity Sunday.
• Liturgical greeting
• Hymn Praise to the Lord, the almighty, the king of creation Which sounded a lot better than normal because lots of the men, all wearing dark suits, were sitting in a body at the front and samg lustily (as John Wesley would have said). Things start to look up.
• Confession. Slighly fluffed because Reader (me) vaguely thought that one of the clergy present would say the Absolution but they weren't expecting to so I said it myself. I imagine no-one in the congregation noticed. Or they might have thought it was a moment's silence for recollection.
• Recital of Ten Commandments
• Collect for Trinity Sunday
• Some responses from that NPW book
• Three songs mildly dated 1980s charismatic choruses in a row led by bloke from the front with microphone. A certain amount of clapping of hands and shouting of "Praise the LORD"! But not too much. We are Anglicans.
• Short "Dramatic Presentation" by the children. A veil is drawn over this. Well, actually it was a Cyberman mask.
• One of the men in the church says a few words about the rewards and joys of parenting. Went on for about ten minutes, rather than the one or two the vicar might have been expecting. Actually quite good. Lots of stuff about modelling behaviour, and funny and touching anecdotes. (Do seven year-old girls really say "Daddy lets make a deal. You stop shouting at me in the morning and I'll stop not getting ready for school"?)
• Hymn, Immortal, Invisible, God only wise (I got to sing this twice in one day)
• Notices. I lost track of the time. There were some birthdays and singing of "Happy Birthday". It was now almost an hour since the service started.
• Responsorial said canticle (if that makes sense) We used a quite from Proverbs 23, instead of our usual Psalm.
• OT reading, Genesis 27.1-29 (Isaac tricked into blessing Jacob by strategic application of bits of dead goat and quite a lot of wine)
• NT reading, Ephesians 6.1-4 (obedience and honour and stuff - as insisted on by the Men's Group)
• Sermon. Which was really good. Guest preacher started off with what sounded like a proper Trinity Sunday sermon & I wondered if he was going to ignore our odd choice of readings entirely. Then somehow segued into anecotes about his own early life which were exactly relevant - he was brought up in a culture in some ways much nearer to that of the patriarchs than we are in London, and had in fact herded his grandfather's goats and sheep when he was a child, and he had been blessed by his father on the last day he saw him alive before leaving for another country. That and some comments about a missionary priest who he said had been a second father on God to him, and then things about being an African living in England rather than a black Englishman which was directly relevant to those men sitting at the front. The sermon turned a service I thought was likely to be a mess into one of the best and most thought-provoking we've had for a while.
• Hymn, How great thou art
• Intercessions led by a member of the congregation
• Hymn, The Lord's my shepherd
• Song sung by the choir that was meant to have been done earlier in the service but had been inadvertently missed out (involving organist dashing round the front of the church to the piano, and then dashing back to organ again when we announced a different song to the one he was expecting)
• More liturgical responses from that NPW service and a final prayer
• Hymn, Be thou my vision and procession to the back of the church
• Blessing and dismissal

Nearly two hours. Honest

[ 20. June 2011, 11:31: Message edited by: ken ]
 

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Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :
 
Only too familiar! Though it sounds less of a car crash than it could have been.
 

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Posted by Rev per Minute (# 69) on :
 
ken's description of the service makes me shiver to my very marrow . Father's Day got a brief mention as part of the Trinity theme - more of an introduction to God the Father than a theological treatment of Father's Day itself.

As I am frequently 'corrected' to use the term 'Mothering Sunday' rather than 'Mother's Day', I occasionally slip and call Father's Day 'Fathering Sunday'. However, I think this is acceptable as it tends to fall nine months before Mothering Sunday
 

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Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 
My parish church did as I assumed -- celebration of Trinity Sunday with fathers being quietly mentioned in the intercessions. In the afternoon I went to Evensong at our Trinity Cathedral -- beautiful, traditional Evensong in honor of their feast of title.

 

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Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :
 
ken.

Too many words.

Ian J.
 

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Posted by Mama Thomas (# 10170) on :
 
I completely forgot it was Fathers' Day and no one mentioned it.. It was Trinity Sunday and the glorious OT was a bit long as was the sermon, so really no need to mention a greeting card holiday.
 

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Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
ken.

Too many words.

Ian J.

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• Father's Day – Acknowledged in the welcome and “fathers and the people that father us” mentioned in the prayers.
• Remembrance Sunday – Special service, lots of visitors.
• New Years' Eve – Nothing. (Previous churches we've attended have had services but we've always stayed well away. I sort of see the point of this and the Christmas service followed by a lunch. It means that members of the congregation who'd otherwise spend the time on their own have the opportunity to spend the time with others if they want to)
• St Valentine's Day – Not mentioned unless it falls on a Sunday.
• Mothering Sunday - Special All Age Worship service and all the women in the congregation are given a small gift. We get lots of visitors for this as many of the congregation have older children who come home specially.
• Church Birthday – Special service with visiting speaker, followed by a lunch. It’s at the same time as my birthday.
• Harvest – Special service, some visitors.

• Back to Church Sunday
• An all age worship service to celebrate the church’s work with children and young people and to give thanks for them and the leaders. Visiting speaker.
• Specific services where the preach is given by someone from a charity / mission supported by the church. There’s also usually a presentation on the work done. (These can either be brilliant or dire, depending on the quality of the speaker. It’s good to see what the church has supported over the year. Some are permanent – BMS, Spurgeons etc while others are chosen each year by the congregation).
• Lay Preacher’s Sunday – Service led by a local lay preacher. Minister gets an unexpected Sunday off.
• Church Swops – We do two. One that’s organised by the Association where Baptist ministers from other churches get an opportunity to preach at a church that’s very different to their own. The other is done by Churches Together and a Minister from another tradition does the service that Sunday.

quote:

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Originally posted by ken:
(And why didn't I post this OP before we'd finished planning the service? Oh well, I suppose there is a No Homework rule)

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Ken, I'm responding a little late to your OP, but I thought this clarification might be useful. The "no homework threads" rule means homework in the very literal sense: we take a dim view of people using the Ship as a short cut to doing real academic research. So, for example, if a person is taking a liturgy course and had to write a paper, we wouldn't want to have an Eccles help thread for that.

But that's not the kind of help you've requested. Asking for suggestions for planning a liturgy or alt. worship event or the like is well within the remit of Ecclesiantics, and we've had such threads in the past. Feel free to invite collaboration from the wise and generous folks hereabouts.

Mamacita, Eccles Host

[ 21. June 2011, 16:54: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
 

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Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on :
 
In the Father's Day service I went to, the guest speaker said that it had been his custom on that Sunday to invite all fathers present to stand so that they could be prayed for. He said he no longer did this as the last time he did it in his own church he and the other leaders had got a surprise.
 

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Posted by Michael Astley (# 5638) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by ken:
Anyway, grumpiness aside, seeing as people expect such secular events to be celebrated in church - and trust me, they do - what can we do in the liturgy to get the most out of it?

And what if anything is your church doing tomorrow?

...

How could that service be improved? (other than by scrapping it)

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quote:

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In our evening service sermon the vicar said something that surprised me - twenty or thirty years ago she rarely heard people preaching about the Trinity but the concept seems to have been getting more prominent and more important recently. I can't say I've noticed myself.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Nenya:
In the Father's Day service I went to, the guest speaker said that it had been his custom on that Sunday to invite all fathers present to stand so that they could be prayed for. He said he no longer did this as the last time he did it in his own church he and the other leaders had got a surprise.

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quote:

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Originally posted by wrinkley:
There are some denominations that do not have even a cross,or statues because they feel that is idolatry. I do not think an
American flag in an American church on July 4, can be called an idol. Anymore than standing for the National Anthem could be called secular song.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Joan_of_Quark:
Just wondering - do Antipodean Anglican churches celebrate Harvest Festival? And does it get in the way of Lent?

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quote:

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Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:

quote:

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Originally posted by wrinkley:
There are some denominations that do not have even a cross,or statues because they feel that is idolatry. I do not think an
American flag in an American church on July 4, can be called an idol. Anymore than standing for the National Anthem could be called secular song.

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Erm,why wouldn't it be called a secular song? 'Secular' just was means 'worldly' - how much more worldly can you get than a country which is, geographically, part of the world? As far as I'm concerned, a national flag is an idol, pure and simple, and bringing it into church does not make it any less profane than it was to begin with.

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Doesn't it all depend on that you define as worshipping? Isn't, by definition, an idol an object that is worshipped? When taken from that aspect, I don't see how a national flag starts out as an idol. Now, what you do with the flag when you bring it into the church, that's another matter. . .
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
IMNSHO things go beyond the line when the nation becomes the subject of the day instead of God , or when the nation is depicted as faultless and deserving of our uncritical adoration. That kind of thing pisses me off to an extreme. And I love my country.
 

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Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
I am a bit leary of the Church being too hand-in-glove with the State - especially a godless Republic - so next Sunday will be interesting. I will be firmly in Trinity II mode and some folks will be expecting me to be in 'God bless America' mode. It will be interesting to see how it turns out. If my sense of humour is up to snuff the last hymn will be "God the All-Terrible" to the tune old Russian National Anthem.

I sometimes wonder if I could cure them of singing the National Anthem the same way as I got rid of the fourth verse of America - by singing the original words to the tune loudly. Three weeks of "God save the Queen" got rid of the fourth verse of America. A bawdy boozing song should work even faster...

PD

[ 27. June 2011, 01:59: Message edited by: PD ]
 

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Posted by Ascension-ite (# 1985) on :
 
I'm not terribly opposed to a flag being in the church, as we have an American flag and an Episcopal Church flag which are in upright stands on either side of the chancel arch, where they remain. I'm also not terribly opposed to singing the national anthem on the 4th, although it's rather militaristic, and makes me a little uncomfortable. I think that is where it should end. Having someone hold the flag in the center of the chancel during the singing of the national anthem seems to be one step too far. It would appear as though we were singing praises to the flag. I just have a hard time with any State/Church connection. I'm not about to pledge any allegiance to any state in the House of God.
 

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Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by PD:
I am a bit leary of the Church being too hand-in-glove with the State - especially a godless Republic - so next Sunday will be interesting. I will be firmly in Trinity II mode and some folks will be expecting me to be in 'God bless America' mode.

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I think the best way to handle the Fourth is the same way Memorial Day and Veterans Day can be treated; turn them all into a kind of All Souls' Day, with special intercessions for those who serve.

The Navy Hymn ("Eternal Father, strong to save") is a great hymn to use (if the Army and the Air Force don't whine too much). It is Trinitarian times two. It appeals to the Creator-God and it places the Son at creation, Jesus on the water, rebuking the storm, and asleep in Mark's boat. And, it brings to tears to the eyes.

It is number 512 in the 1940 Hymnal and 608 in the 1982 Hymnal. The alternate verses two and three provided in number 513 in the 1940 Hymnal gut the original sense and turn it into a kind of itinerary prayer.
 

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Posted by PD (# 12436) on :
 
The Church flag and the American flag have been at the back of the church ever since we moved, which is a situation I - ahem - contrived to bring about by grumbling they were in the way wherever someone dumped them in the quire and sanctuary. They eventually made their way to the back which was where I wanted them.

As for singing the National Anthem after Mass on the Sunday before the Fourth. I allow it after the Recessional Hymn; however, some of my choices for final hymn have been a bit interesting over the last five years. One it worked out that O God of earth and altar fitted with the lessons for the day, which fits in rather more closely with my feelings about earthly governments.

Inevitably, anywhere that has a fairly strong Low Church tradition - or even the memory of one - you are going to get the flag thing on the Fourth or thereabouts. I have concluded that it is an ordinance of man to be endured for the Lord's sake. That said, I have no problem praying for those who govern, though the 1928 BCP's O Lord, save the state is a bit Orwellian for my taste.

PD

[ 27. June 2011, 02:57: Message edited by: PD ]
 

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Posted by Leaf (# 14169) on :
 
TSA: Thank you for reminding me of "Eternal Father, Strong to Save" at this time of year.

A parish in a resort area had this hymn as a sobering reminder at the beginning of holiday season (July): there were always drownings. The hymn not only functioned as prayer and praise but also a "Let's be careful out there" message.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Oh yes, Baptist Trainfan ... in reply to your comment up-thread ... I'm not saying that an interest in the Trinity is a purely Orthodox concern ... but there does appear to have been a renewed interest in the doctrine among various folk in Baptist/independent circles ... as well as Cappadocian Christology and, indeed, sacramental theology.

I think we're living in a time where there's a lot of cross-over and debate. I'm not sure I see much evidence of a renewed interest in the Trinity and so on in the pews though ... but perhaps these things do lend themselves to more rarefied academic debate. Really, they should be thrashed out and lived out among the people in the churches - and that applies to all of us, whatever our tradition or Tradition.

I do think, though, that people like Nigel Wright have developed a strong interest in these things as a counter-balance to some of the frothy stuff that has come in through the charismatic renewal. If the renewal itself stimulates and encourages that, then all to the good ...
 

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Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 
Certainly my views - especially over such issues as the Social Nature of the Trinity, and seeing the Trinity as a dynamic relationship rather than as simply a static ontology - have changed over recent years. I have tried to communicate and apply them to my congregation, especially in regard to our interaction with each other and the wider community.

As I did this Trinity Sunday - although fathers did get a brief lookin!

[ 27. June 2011, 12:09: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
 

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Posted by Belle Ringer (# 13379) on :
 
It's "celebrate America" Sunday next week at the church I sing in. I usually skip patriotic holiday Sundays (Memorial Day in May, Independence Day in July, Veterans Day in October). This time I'm stuck, the solo I was supposed to do yesterday got moved to next week because of rehearsal scheduling, there will be at least one song unrelated to America.

I told the music director I dislike songs celebrating war in church, which is what a lot of "patriotic" songs are. He said we won't do any of them, we will do God Bless America. (He does a mixture of patriotic and God-aware songs, unlike a Baptist church I visited last summer where what was billed as a church worship service came across to me as patriotic rally.)

I don't sing songs about war in church, so I remain seated and silent when in church they sing about bombs bursting in air, so what if it's the national anthem, it's not even superficially a God-aware song. But I've never (yet) heard the national anthem in an Episcopal or Methodist church. Yea!
 

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Posted by The Silent Acolyte (# 1158) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I don't sing songs about war in church...

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:

quote:

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Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I don't sing songs about war in church...

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Me neither.

But, then I got to wondering about setting bits of Joshua to music. Hmmmm.

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quote:

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"By the light of burning martyrs,
Christ, Thy bleeding feet we track,
Toiling up new Calv’ries ever
with the cross that turns not back;"

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quote:

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'Pierce my ear Lord',

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quote:

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Originally posted by Enoch:
Which is the hymn about bombs bursting?

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quote:

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[The blood of the foe’s haughty host] has washed out their foul footsteps’ pollution. / No refuge could save the hireling and slave / From the terror of flight, or the gloom of the grave.

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More details here.
 

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Posted by Shadowhund (# 9175) on :
 
The strangest incident I've ever encountered regarding secular holidays in church is where a priest and a soprano sang a duet of "A Whole New World" from Disney's Aladdin in honor of Columbus Day.
 

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Posted by NatDogg (# 14347) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Shadowhund:
The strangest incident I've ever encountered regarding secular holidays in church is where a priest and a soprano sang a duet of "A Whole New World" from Disney's Aladdin in honor of Columbus Day.

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Shadowhund, you've got to be kidding us, no?!

I was drinking water and spit it clear cross the room when I read your post. That is, er, um. . . interesting.
 

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Posted by Shadowhund (# 9175) on :
 
I kid you not! The duet took place after communion and before the final collect.

Exactly how this liturgical travesty came to pass I do not know. Strangely enough, they actually sang it well, though they should have done it during a coffee hour.
 

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Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
The Navy Hymn ("Eternal Father, strong to save") is a great hymn to use (if the Army and the Air Force don't whine too much).

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Originally posted by Martin L:
In the National Songs section at the back of our shiny new (5 years old) ELCA hymnal, we have This is my song, O God of all the nations, set to the tune Finlandia. It's basically a nod to "country" in general. People usually love the tune enough that they don't mind it taking up one of the hymn slots on the weekend nearest the Fourth of July.

We also use Before you, Lord, we bow by Francis Scott Key, set to the ever-popular Darwall's 148th. Once again, the tune helps to "sell" this one.

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Originally posted by scuffleball:
Getting back to the original topic, for what Sundays have we developed detailed liturgies completely divorced from any prayer book - be it 1662, CW or whatever? "Nine Lessons and Carols," Remembrance Day and Christingle all spring to mind.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Spike:

quote:

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Originally posted by scuffleball:
Getting back to the original topic, for what Sundays have we developed detailed liturgies completely divorced from any prayer book - be it 1662, CW or whatever? "Nine Lessons and Carols," Remembrance Day and Christingle all spring to mind.

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Not totally divorced from any prayer book. The three you mention are all included in CW Times and Seasons.

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quote:

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Originally posted by scuffleball:
Being British I find the American custom of putting the national flag in or on a church unusual.

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quote:

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Originally posted by leo:
Yes, it is available from the C of E's website here

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Oh dear. Oh dear, oh dear. Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.
 

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Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Spike:

quote:

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Originally posted by leo:
Yes, it is available from the C of E's website here

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Oh dear. Oh dear, oh dear. Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.

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quote:

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We invite all those who are in Scouts, or who were Veterans of the military, civil servants firefighters, police & EMS workers and active duty military to join our processional as we begin worship services on Sunday, July 3rd. Please wear your uniform if possible. We will file into the sanctuary carrying the Texas flag and the American flag...as we celebrate Independence Day here at [church name].

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mamacita:
...(1) I'll bet they didn't include fire fighters etc until after 9/11. Americans became much more aware and respectful of first-responders after that. (2) I think if a church is going to do this kind of procession it's not inappropriate to include Scouts, but it does remind me of how the Scouters in my family complained about Scouts being viewed in some quarters as a sort of para-military group.

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This is the first year they've honored other than military and veterans. (This is the first year they've had a procession; in the past they've had veterans stand and each state their unit and location of any war service.) But this year is the 10th anniversary of 9/11, so including firefighters might have seemed, as you say, natural. That raises the issue - if you go beyond military, which is a group with clear boundary lines, who else do you include and where do you stop?

Weren't the boy scouts modeled in a sense on military, and then girl scouts modeled on boy scouts? I thought that was the history, not paramilitary but the uniforms, having ranks (2nd class, 1st class), etc. I suppose scouts are thought of as a patriotic organization. They make a pledge to God and country.
 

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Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
Baden-Powell certainly modelled his boy scouts as though it were a kind of auxiliary armed force capable of surviving in enemy territory sort of thing. So even though they are not usually trained to fight in any way, there is clearly still a 'military' angle.

This includes parades, which of course they perform in many Anglican churches without any particular patriotic occasion being involved.

(I understand that during the War this confused the Nazis who imagined them as a dangerous youth combat movement, and compiled dossiers on how they would deal with them post-invasion )
 

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Posted by Carys (# 78) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Spike:

quote:

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Originally posted by scuffleball:
Getting back to the original topic, for what Sundays have we developed detailed liturgies completely divorced from any prayer book - be it 1662, CW or whatever? "Nine Lessons and Carols," Remembrance Day and Christingle all spring to mind.

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Not totally divorced from any prayer book. The three you mention are all included in CW Times and Seasons.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:
GSTW? God save the Workers?

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I had thought it might be "God Save the Windsors."

 

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Posted by Martin L (# 11804) on :
 
I was more by the fact that it apparently needs to be in a hymnal to be sung. I've heard it only a handful of times in my life, and I can probably sing two verses without looking.
 

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:

quote:

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Originally posted by Angloid:
GSTW? God save the Workers?

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I had thought it might be "God Save the Windsors."

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quote:

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Originally posted by leo:
I think Barbara Windsor is quite sympathetic to Christianity, though I don't know whether she is 'saved' yet.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Carys:
Christingle I believe stems from the Children's Society.

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