Thread: Styx: EVERYBODY READ: Policy change Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Erin (# 2) on :
 
As some of you old-timers may have noticed, I've been much less active than usual lately. This is due to the giant time sink that is the Ark. (And if you haven't been watching it, give it a shot -- it has been a total blast.)

Anyway, the fact that I haven't been posting frequently does not indicate that I haven't been reading the threads. I have, and I've noticed some things. There are a few threads sprinkled in Heaven, Hell and All Saints which concern me -- they seem to be indicating a greater reliance on the Ship than is healthy or wise. This bothers me on two fronts: first, it opens up all sorts of potential legal problems for us; and second, the Ship (or any bulletin board, really) is not an adequate stand-in for counseling services.

I'll get the legal stuff out of the way first: Ship of Fools is in no way intended as a support or self-help site. We are a debate board, given to discussion of various theological, ethical, political, social, etc. dilemmas that people wrestle with every day. That we have boards dedicated to the community and other, more light-hearted pursuits is testimony to the friendships that have arisen from the interactions here, and that is entirely down to y'all. However, the editors, administrators and hosts of the Ship must draw a line as to what "services" we offer. The line is this: the Ship is in no way to be used as a substitute for counseling services -- be they legal, medical, psychological, psychiatric or spiritual. Posts which seek to elicit such responses are very strongly discouraged, and repeated posts along those lines will be deleted.

Now, to the second part. No matter how much we care, interactions on an electronic bulletin board are wholly inadequate to accomplish significant psychological recovery. Because this is sometimes difficult to see, we are instituting a policy: effective immediately, Ship of Fools' bulletin boards are neither appropriate nor adequate venues for suicidal ideations. Do not waste precious time by posting here -- if you suspect that your feelings of hopelessness or despair are more than just a reaction to a difficult time in your life or normal spiritual angst, or you think about suicide, then you need professional help, immediately, and you can't get that here.

The Ship is not the place to post those feelings, not only for the aforementioned legal reasons, but also because this is a bulletin board with open, unfettered access. The boards alone average over a million hits each month. We are concerned that not only are people using the Ship to substitute for counseling, but also that those who post along those lines make themselves open and vulnerable to others who perhaps do not have your best interests at heart.

We want to see all of you happy and healthy, and it is our responsibility to recognize the limitations of this medium. If you have general questions about this policy, post them here. If you have specific questions relating to yourself or others, send an e-mail or PM to me or one of the other administrators.

Thanks,
Erin
Community Editor

[ 03. January 2012, 20:29: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
 

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Posted by Arrietty (# 45) on :
 
Erin

That sounds very sensible.

As a matter of information, if someone who has not read this or doesn't understand/ignores the policy makes such a post in future, will it be deleted?
 

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Posted by marmot (# 479) on :
 
Thank goodness! Every time something like that comes up, I want to scream " It isn't that we don't care, we just can't help you the way you need to be helped!" Ask me to pray, I will, but I really worry about the ones who have expectations of rescue in a virtual environment.

Thanks, Erin.
 

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Posted by Erin (# 2) on :
 
Arrietty, an administrator will contact that person and suggest alternative, more appropriate resources.

[ 18. May 2003, 17:08: Message edited by: Erin ]
 

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Posted by JimT (# 142) on :
 
I am greatly relieved by this policy. I've seen the trend to which Erin has referred and have waffled between simply giving my own positive experience as encouragement and offering personal opinions about what therapy can and can not do. I will be happy to do less of both in the future.

When I see someone who definitely needs professional help on board, it puts me in a terrible quandry. I want to say, "You need professional help," but of course in public or in private that is going to be humiliating. In the event that the person is not humiliated but glad that someone has taken an interest, I don't want to be drawn into, "Thanks, tell me more. Where do I get it? What should I look for? How do I choose? What should I talk about? You've read my posts."

There is no shame in seeking professional help. To me, it was the "pearl of great price." I sacrificed as much money and as much time as I needed and would have gladly given every penny I had and every second of my time to achieve a quiet, confident inner peace. We may have been built for conscious sacrifice in pursuit of higher goals, but we were not built for perpetual and unbearable suffering to the point that we yearn for death and release.
 

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Posted by Pipkin (# 1401) on :
 
Well done - much wisdom.

blessings
Pip
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
I agree with what Jim T said. This policy is sensible and much needed. We all need to let off steam from time to time, but when it isn't cathartic, or it looks like becoming a form of dependency, it's time to get help from someone who specializes in how to deal with it.
 

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Posted by dolphy (# 862) on :
 
Echoing Pip; Well said with much wisdom.
 

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Posted by Moth (# 2589) on :
 
Can I ask that this policy also be applied to the cafe? I have once or twice been in the situation where I felt almost unable to leave someone in the cafe because of their obvious 'neediness', but I am not a trained counsellor, and don't wish to counsel anyone online!

I don't mean by this that you can't say 'I need cheering up' in the cafe, but unwanted confidences that someone is suicidal are most unfair to other users. It puts us in an impossible situation.
 

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Posted by The Wonderful Nanny Ogg (# 1176) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Moth:
Can I ask that this policy also be applied to the cafe?

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I agree that it is needed in the cafe, especially as other rooms in the cafe and private conversations have been used for "counselling"

Also, will there be control over the use of private messages to shipmates by anyone who should really be seeking professional help?

What would be the best way of dealing with any such PMs?
 

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Posted by Jenny Ann (# 3131) on :
 
hi,

100% behind policy change. hope that everyone understands the reasoning behind it and doesn't give the admins flak for doing their jobs!

J
 

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Posted by Stoo (# 254) on :
 
Just for information, the web address for the Samaritans in the UK is www.samaritans.org, and the phone number is 08457 90 90 90 and 1850 60 90 90 for the Republic of Ireland.
 

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Posted by Caver (# 4392) on :
 
They can also be emailed from anywhere in the world at jo@samaritans.org and they will endeavour to reply within 24 hours.

Otherwise they are part of Befrienders International and the BI site has details of organisations in other parts of the world that are similar to the Samaritans.
 

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Posted by thegreent (# 3571) on :
 
Erin - the ark? whats that?
 

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Posted by Clyde (# 752) on :
 
A well thought out policy which makes good sense.
I certainly support it.
 

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Posted by nouwen (# 3103) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Stoo:
Just for information, the web address for the Samaritans in the UK is www.samaritans.org, and the phone number is 08457 90 90 90 and 1850 60 90 90 for the Republic of Ireland.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Wonderful Nanny Ogg:

quote:

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Originally posted by Moth:
Can I ask that this policy also be applied to the cafe?

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I agree that it is needed in the cafe, especially as other rooms in the cafe and private conversations have been used for "counselling"

Also, will there be control over the use of private messages to shipmates by anyone who should really be seeking professional help?

What would be the best way of dealing with any such PMs?

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I am not an admin or host, so this is just my own opinion, but I would have thought the main concern is for messages which are posted and remain in view and for which SOF might therefore appear responsible.

PMs are private so I would imagine it is up to the recipient how to deal with it.

Maybe I'm just hard, but I tend to ignore posts which are asking for an intense emotional response.
 

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Posted by Erin (# 2) on :
 
To follow up on that... in the US, suicide hotlines are always listed in the first few pages of the phone book (if you live in a city large enough that the white and yellow pages are split, it's in the white pages).

We fully appreciate that the Ship can be a help in bad times -- I remain eternally grateful for all of the support I had when I was going through my divorce. However, it was not my primary source of support -- I sought out a qualified therapist and went to her weekly for nearly a year, plus I routinely talked to my priest. The Ship absolutely positively cannot substitute for that kind of face-to-face, qualified counseling. I recognize that the community on the Ship is one of the best on the Internet, but there are limits to what we can do, and it's important that we all recognize that, rather than set up the vicious cycle of co-dependency. (I was there, too, it sucks.)

And I didn't even address what I had originally posted to address.

*sigh*

I would say that this does apply to the cafe as well. If someone comes into the cafe and says they are suicidal, then a simple "log off and contact a qualified healthcare professional NOW" message is sufficient. No one here is responsible for someone else's actions. I know this sounds harsh and cold, but I've done the co-dependency thing, and it took me the aforementioned year of therapy to realize that I can't take responsibility for another's failure to seek help. No matter how wonderful I think myself, I'm just not that good.

Same thing with PMs. We obviously can't police them, as we don't have access to them, but I would hope that people would understand that this is a Ship policy and therefore it is inappropriate to circumvent it using Ship resources.

[ 18. May 2003, 23:08: Message edited by: Erin ]
 

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Posted by JoyfulNoise & Parrot, O'Kief (# 2049) on :
 
Thanks for setting the perimiters so clearly.
A well thought out policy which makes good sense.
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
I am glad this issue has been addressed - there is a tremendous feeling of helplessness due to the anonymity of posters in distress and also a feeling of responsibility in wondering if you have done or said the right thing.
PMs are a problem - I have wondered whether to contact the Ship admins when this has happened, but decided they have enough on their plate and couldn't help much more than me anyway.

But also hope the people who need help and are reading this thread realise that Shipmates do care and are not rejecting them through this policy - just trying to ensure that the channels of help are appropriate ones.
 

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Posted by chukovsky (# 116) on :
 
This sounds like a very sensible thing to do.

For clarification: There are qualified mental health professionals on the Ship (of which I am not one) and I have got the feeling in the past that they may feel even more "obliged" to interact with people in such mental states (a sort of "this person isn't my specific patient but I know what I'm doing and I feel responsible" type thing). I am just wondering if they might benefit from specific absolution of any responsibilities. Probably they are very sensible and grownup and don't need me to say anything, though!

Secondly: I have been in the situation where shipmates don't so much mention on the boards that they are currently feeling suicidal, as indicate on the boards or in PMs "things are really rough for me right now especially since my suicide attempt/period of major depression" and end up by asking for large favours (e.g. accommodation/transport/loan of money or goods) in a way that is not exactly manipulative, but does seem to suggest "if I hadn't been so down I would have been able to manage this myself".

I don't know quite how we should cope with this - it is not, as the situation Erin describes, an immediate request for counselling, in which someone hints their life depends on another, unqualified, shipmate, but it is a situation in which the targetted shipmate or group of shipmates might feel "this person getting home tonight/not sleeping on the streets might depend on my doing something for them, and they might be tipped over the edge mentally again", in a way that a simple "I'm in your area and wonder if you might have a bed for the night, no worries if not because I can always book into a B&B, I have been mega busy/had gastric flu and left it to the last minute!" does not put pressure on someone in quite the same way.
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
I think the mental health professionals on board probably have much the same attitude as most of the rest of us - they're not here to post in a professional capacity. As for the PMs etc - it's necessary to draw a distinction between attention seeking/emotionally manipulative behaviour, and cases of genuine need which you may or may not want to get involved in at your own risk.
 

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Posted by chukovsky (# 116) on :
 
That's very true, Ariel, but it does leave us in a similar situation to previously: everyone being free to post their current problems, but "I'm feeling suicidal" trumping anything else and people's feeling of responsibility for someone else's life remaining in that circumstance.

I don't know, maybe it seems different in some way, but this has happened before and it did seem quite similar to the situation Erin is trying to avoid.
 

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Posted by Royal Peculiar (# 3159) on :
 
And a related issue- that if you give too much away about yourself -or in one thread a third party who was having problems, you (or the person you're discussing) may be identified. It's so easy to forget tht as well as the regular posters there are many lurkers reading these boards.
 

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Posted by ed_m (# 2025) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Erin:
To follow up on that... in the US, suicide hotlines are always listed in the first few pages of the phone book

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quote:

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To follow up on that... in the US, suicide hotlines are always listed in the first few pages of the phone book (if you live in a city large enough that the white and yellow pages are split, it's in the white pages).

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quote:

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Originally posted by chukovsky:
That's very true, Ariel, but it does leave us in a similar situation to previously: everyone being free to post their current problems, but "I'm feeling suicidal" trumping anything else and people's feeling of responsibility for someone else's life remaining in that circumstance.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Erin:
Moo, I wasn't referring specifically to the Samaritans, but a general local suicide hotline. I guess there are white pages that don't have it listed, but I have never seen one.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Erin:
Like I said, I have never seen a white pages that didn't have a 24 hour suicide hotline number printed in huge letters, so that's really surprising. And sucketh severely.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Moo:

quote:

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Originally posted by Erin:
Like I said, I have never seen a white pages that didn't have a 24 hour suicide hotline number printed in huge letters, so that's really surprising. And sucketh severely.

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That's why I'm holding on to the Befrienders web address. I may come across someone who needs it.

Moo

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quote:

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it opens up all sorts of potential legal problems for us.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:
I do hope that if the ship desides to go with a policy of turning people away who come to the board talking about mental health problems that the rejection will be worded very carefully. people in that state are very fragile.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:

I do hope that if the ship desides to go with a policy of turning people away who come to the board talking about mental health problems that the rejection will be worded very carefully. people in that state are very fragile.

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I don't think the ship is turning anyone away, just encouraging them to seek other help...

The policy makes sense

hugs,
sophs
(who went to the doctors yesterday )
 

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Posted by Erin (# 2) on :
 
Yay, sophs! I use this ONLY for you...

Don't tell anyone.
 

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Posted by Smudgie (# 2716) on :
 
(((sophs))) atta girl!!!
 

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Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 
(((((((((((((((SOPHS!)))))))))))))))


 

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Posted by sophs (# 2296) on :
 
thanks...

but you weren't meant to pick up on that
 

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Posted by Ben26 (# 4201) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Erin:
Yay, sophs! I use this ONLY for you...

Don't tell anyone.

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Too late, we've all heard you Erin.

Sophs - That is brilliant. I am extremely please to hear that you have been to see a doctor.

Also pleased about the policy as it's not fair if people are faced with situations that they have no clue how to handle. Esp if they hardly know the person.

Ben26
 

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Posted by Ann (# 94) on :
 
Well done sophs.
 

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Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ben26:


Also pleased about the policy as it's not fair if people are faced with situations that they have no clue how to handle. Esp if they hardly know the person.

Ben26

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quote:

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I don't think the ship is turning anyone away, just encouraging them to seek other help...

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quote:

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I don't see much difference and I think someone who is already feeling worthless and unloved is going to take that "encouragement to seek other help" as rejection.[/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ben26:


Also pleased about the policy as it's not fair if people are faced with situations that they have no clue how to handle. Esp if they hardly know the person.

Ben26

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What's unfair about it?
No one is forced to respond to these people if they don't want to or feel clueless about the subject. Those people who feel uncomfortable or who deal with these things in their professional lives don't have to read that particular thread. People come to these boards and talk about all sorts of problems including health problems. No one complained about the calling God to Hell thread or the problems expressed on it. Why is this different? I have no clue about some of the theological problems presented on this board but I don't complain that it's not fair to be faced with them.
I think your final line "especially if we hardly know the person" is probably the real issue here.

Erin quote:

quote:

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I don't think the ship is turning anyone away, just encouraging them to seek other help...

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I don't see much difference and I think someone who is already feeling worthless and unloved is going to take that "encouragement to seek other help" as rejection.

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Nope. Knowing someone doesn't effect whether I am prepared to talk to them one little bit. Otherwise I wouldn't have joined the ship in the first place. Shipmates and apprentices who feel suicidal should, IMHO, seek professional help - esp as those not qualified to give help may give them bad advice.

Your right in that no-one is forced to read or respond to threads or posts but I was thinking of the cafe, which is a different story*. Erin hasn't said depressed people aren't welcome here and I am pretty sure that isn't her meaning. If your in the cafe with a depressed person, it might be awkward for some people to know what to do or say. It may make them feel responsible for "saving" that person - but they aren't responsible. It's not their decision whether someone else does something silly.

Ben26

*note to the shipmates I have talked to in the cafe about depression. No, I am not getting at you and it was fine. If I didn't want to talk, I wouldn't have. Please don't take this the wrong way.
 

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Posted by Erin (# 2) on :
 
Well, setting aside you attributing someone else's words to me, Twilight I'm having a real problem with your posts. You're drawing a whole bunch of conclusions that are completely unwarranted from what I've said so far and taken a policy in which we encourage members seeking professional help while using the Ship as a tertiary means of support to us closing the door on anyone with any mental illness.

Complete non sequitur, Twilight, and I don't appreciate you making us out to be the bad guys for encouraging people to actually get real live help. It kinda pisses me off.
 

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Posted by thegreent (# 3571) on :
 
Well done sophs

Erin - im jealous...... is sophs the **only** one to get your affection??

quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:
Call me cold and hard if you want, but when people post that they are feeling suicidal, I don't generally assume the worst. I tend to think that if they're completely certain they will do it, they're probably not going to post it on a bulletin board, in case anyone stops them. Posting is more likely to be a cry for help - and as such, should be directed to someone who is adequate to cope.

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quote:

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Originally posted by sophs:

quote:

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I don't see much difference and I think someone who is already feeling worthless and unloved is going to take that "encouragement to seek other help" as rejection.

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I don't think Erin was suggesting just telling people to go and seek other help and leaving them on their own...[/qb]

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That's how I worry that some people might interpret the policy. In a society like ours, where mental disorders are often trivialised or ignored, getting help is a really big step. Heck, it took me nearly three years between realising I needed it and getting it. I just worry that people will see this policy and ignore anyone who mentions certain topics on the grounds that "The hosts won't let me talk to you until you get help."

Regarding legal issues, btw... couldn't the ship just post "Ship of Fools is not responsible for any user submitted content posted on our forums"? That'd get round the 'no copyrighted stuff' policy too, wouldn't it?

Amorya
 

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Posted by Arrietty (# 45) on :
 
Amorya

I had never noticed you posting anything suicidal

I think the policy may be more to discourage people from taking on 'caseloads', than to discourage people from posting when they are sad/pissed off etc.

It seems from Erin's answer to me above, that anyone whose posts imply they are feeling very very low and can't cope and are asking a website to help them, will be getting a helpful and caring email from an admin to direct them to apropriate sources of help in the real world.

That's a bonus I think.
 

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Posted by Amorya (# 2652) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Arrietty:
Amorya

I had never noticed you posting anything suicidal

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quote:

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I think the policy may be more to discourage people from taking on 'caseloads', than to discourage people from posting when they are sad/pissed off etc.

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quote:

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It seems from Erin's answer to me above, that anyone whose posts imply they are feeling very very low and can't cope and are asking a website to help them, will be getting a helpful and caring email from an admin to direct them to apropriate sources of help in the real world.

That's a bonus I think.

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quote:

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If someone came here and said they had cancer we would probably commiserate; I don't think we would tell them that we weren't oncologists and they should quit wasting time here and go see a specialist.

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quote:

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from Arietty's post:
I think the policy may be more to discourage people from taking on 'caseloads', than to discourage people from posting when they are sad/pissed off etc.

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quote:

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from Ben26's post:
Erin hasn't said depressed people aren't welcome here....

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Good grief, if we got rid of all the depressed shipmates, the Ship would probably be deserted (except perhaps for a tiny group cheerfully playing party games in Heaven and a couple of hard-core trolls hanging around Purgatory and Hell ).

quote:

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from Twilight's post:
If someone came here and said they had cancer we would probably commiserate; I don't think we would tell them that we weren't oncologists and they should quit wasting time here and go see a specialist.

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quote:

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Twilight again:
I would hope no one would delete their threads if they continued to post. That can leave anyone feeling a little disoriented and hurt.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Erin:

The line is this: the Ship is in no way to be used as a substitute for counseling services -- be they legal, medical, psychological, psychiatric or spiritual. Posts which seek to elicit such responses are very strongly discouraged, and repeated posts along those lines will be deleted.

Now, to the second part. No matter how much we care, interactions on an electronic bulletin board are wholly inadequate to accomplish significant psychological recovery. Because this is sometimes difficult to see, we are instituting a policy: effective immediately, Ship of Fools' bulletin boards are neither appropriate nor adequate venues for suicidal ideations. Do not waste precious time by posting here -- if you suspect that your feelings of hopelessness or despair are more than just a reaction to a difficult time in your life or normal spiritual angst, or you think about suicide, then you need professional help, immediately, and you can't get that here.

The Ship is not the place to post those feelings, not only for the aforementioned legal reasons, but also because this is a bulletin board with open, unfettered access.

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quote:

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Amorya said:
Regarding legal issues, btw... couldn't the ship just post "Ship of Fools is not responsible for any user submitted content posted on our forums"? That'd get round the 'no copyrighted stuff' policy too, wouldn't it?

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quote:

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Originally posted by thegreent:
I cant remember the statistics precisely - but didnt they find out that most people who commit suicide **have** tried to see a doctor in the last 6months/ ask for help somewhere etc...

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Maybe so. I'm just speaking from my own experience. I avoided going to a doctor or asking for help during the run up to my own attempt 20 years ago. If anyone had asked me whether I felt suicidal I would have lied to reassure them. I was scared stiff of possibly ending up in a psychiatric hospital, and I didn't want to bother people by telling them about my feelings, or, when it came to the crunch, have anyone stop me. As it happened, it didn't work, but I'd meant it to.

Having said that, I agree with the second part of your post, although the inquiry as to intention would need to be worded carefully.
 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
Hmmm...

We need a seesaw smiley. I see good aspects to the new policy, and I have *no* worries about the intent of the hosts/admins.

I am concerned, though, about how the policy might be perceived by people in trouble, and how shipmates might choose to act on it. Some of the posts on this thread--and, to a certain extent, the OP--SOUND as if no discussion of personal problems, past or present, especially depression, is welcome. I did read the OP and the thread carefully, and was *not* looking to read anything particular into it.

I've been suicidal. I know others who have been, and I did lose one friend that way. My personal policy is to *always* take it seriously. I may just say something as simple as "don't", "I care", "please hang on". And I've had people tell me how glad they were I did that. Some people tell me they weren't serious, but sometimes people who are serious deny it. I'd rather take it all seriously, than not take it seriously enough and be wrong.

A question--not just because of the OP, but because of some of the comments here: What about my "Brainstorming" thread in All Saints? It's about my ongoing personal situation. Is that endangered?

Please understand: I'm not yelling at anyone--just thinking and pondering.
 

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Posted by Amorya (# 2652) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by golden key:
I am concerned, though, about how the policy might be perceived by people in trouble, and how shipmates might choose to act on it. Some of the posts on this thread--and, to a certain extent, the OP--SOUND as if no discussion of personal problems, past or present, especially depression, is welcome. I did read the OP and the thread carefully, and was *not* looking to read anything particular into it.

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quote:

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Erin wrote:
I acknowledge that you two have disagreements with the policy. This has been passed by Ship's Counsel, and this is how it is. I'm sorry, I'm not going to open the Ship up to liability for encouraging someone to use us as a poor substitute for much-needed therapy. If someone really needs an intervention, posting here IS wasting time as they have no guarantee there's going to be anyone around here anyway.

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You're missing my point, I think. (Not that my point was very clear, when I was posting late at night and was decidedly ambivalent about the policy.)

I know that the ship is no substitute for councelling. I fully recommend that we don't attempt to take on responsibility for someone in that state. What I don't recommend is turning them away for any mention of mental illness or whatever. As I said before, we should treat it like someone with a physical illness - we can't make it all better (and we should make that very clear), but we can provide a friendly ear when the pain is getting you down, same as we would for anyone else with any other problems.

Amorya
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
The question is whether we can provide a friendly ear, much as we might like to. I was in the cafe one time when someone came in and the discussion instantly changed to the mental health problems they were experiencing. I am not denigrating the validity of anyone's experiences but what had been a lighthearted chat with a few others suddenly became an intense dialogue between two people about their experiences of schizophrenia. I felt quite out of my depth on this one. There was nothing I could say, and an attempt to brighten up the conversation or divert it to some more frivolous topic would have been inappropriate at that point as they clearly needed to talk. I made my excuses and left.
 

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Posted by Mrs Tubbs (# 440) on :
 
But nowhere in Erin’s various posts on this subject does it say that any discussion of personal problems / depression is unwelcome.

IMO, the policy is designed to prevent Shipmates attempting to use the Ship as a substitute for professional help. But it doesn’t stop Shipmates asking for support from the community while they are plucking up courage to speak to someone; going through the process of finding the right treatment or receiving it. And reporting on their progress. (Please correct me if I have mis-understood, but it is a subtle and crucial difference).

Twilight wrote:

quote:

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I didn't mean to suggest that the new policy would be worded in a cruel way, just to remind everyone that people in a state of despair might read the slightest suggestion to seek help elsewhere as a rebuff.

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quote:

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I am concerned, though, about how the policy might be perceived by people in trouble, and how shipmates might choose to act on it. Some of the posts on this thread--and, to a certain extent, the OP--SOUND as if no discussion of personal problems, past or present, especially depression, is welcome. I did read the OP and the thread carefully, and was *not* looking to read anything particular into it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Erin:
I'm less glad, though, when I perceive that people are using it in lieu of the aforementioned primary and secondary support. And I and others have had the very distinct feeling that this has been happening of late.

---

I agree. I think for some people it is easier to spell something out on a keyboard to people you don't know, and will probably never meet rather than talk to people who you will see again. This doesn't mean it works though. the people you talk to can feel very helpless, especially if they are on the other side of the world and you yourself are not getting the ongoing support you need.

J
 

---

Posted by dolphy (# 862) on :
 
This community is truly wonderful, I think most of us would agree. It is a place where we can discuss serious issues, have fun, ask for prayers and also a place where many of us have made great friends, either as a screen name, or in real life. However, although we can be supported through hard times, I certainly found this throughout my court case (see my Trials and Tribulations thead in the depths of All Saints), we can not expect fellow shipmates to take the place of professionals. We can talk about our worries, our troubles, etc, and that is wonderful to be able to do. As has been said before, sometimes it is easier to talk on the ship than in real lfe, as it were but if somebody really does seem to need qualified professional help in whatever shape or form that comes, well, that has to be the way forward. I know that many shipmates are in contact with others, we help, advise and listen as best we can, and more often than not that advice is accepted. This does not mean that we are turning away from others problems, we are merely giving them help. I hope this makes sense, I am not sure that I have portrayed exactly what I am meaning but I hope you get the jist of it!

(P.S. Well done Sophs )
 

---

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
The question is whether we can provide a friendly ear, much as we might like to. I was in the cafe one time when someone came in and the discussion instantly changed to the mental health problems they were experiencing. I am not denigrating the validity of anyone's experiences but what had been a lighthearted chat with a few others suddenly became an intense dialogue between two people about their experiences of schizophrenia. I felt quite out of my depth on this one. There was nothing I could say, and an attempt to brighten up the conversation or divert it to some more frivolous topic would have been inappropriate at that point as they clearly needed to talk. I made my excuses and left.

---

quote:

---

for you. Can I suggest you get some professional help on this issue?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Moo:
[QUOTE]I think that the people who wanted to discuss schizophrenia should have gone to another room in the cafe. I don't know how you could have told them that, though.

---

There was a similar situation in the café recently (discussing serious, though not 'professional help needed' issues) where someone took the rather gracious initiative of saying: "I'm off to the saloon ". Those wishing for light chit-chat took the cue and moved over. As new people came in, if it looked like they just wanted to chat they were sent a "private conversation" message quickly summarising what was going on in the Gangway and telling them the fun bits were in the saloon. That seemed to work well.

Alternatively, I suppose a similar private message could have been sent to the 'serious' protagonists.
 

---

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :
 
Bravo sophs!!
[looking for clapping-hands smilie]
 

---

Posted by sophs (# 2296) on :
 
[small somewhat random observation]
I've just read through the thread, and found 2 bits that are kinda wierd on the same thread...one is the discussion about whether the ship is turning people away, and other is people saying things like "yay sophs"....Is it me or does one of these show that the other is, at least in some ways, not happening?
[/small somewhat random observation]
 

---

Posted by Smudgie (# 2716) on :
 
In my opinion, you've hit the nail on the head, Sophs

May I add my twopenn'orth?

I have great confidence in (and respect for) those who manage the ship and make policy decisions about the way things should be around here. I am sure that no decisions are made on a whim and that changes such as these are discussed thoroughly, with thought, prayer and concern for all involved.

This is a supportive community. Granted not all see it that way, but the majority do and revel in the Christian ethos of the site which makes all welcome (unless they make moves deliberately to jeopardise that welcome)and provides a secure environment through the 10 Commandments. But that very sense of community is, I believe, testament to the conscientious and caring approach of the team which maintains it as well as to the openness and mutual concern of the people who "reside" here.

This policy is not intended to drive people away, in my opinion, nor to straitjacket people into a particular response to need. I think it presents a structure within which we are all able to work. I think it protects those who are at their lowest by directing them towards the people best qualified to help and helping them not to become over-dependent on this inadequate source of support alone. I think it protects those who do care - those who feel out of their depth and helpless in the face of posts about impending self harm, those who feel cornered into a sense of responsibility which circumstances make it impossible to do anything about. In PM I can listen and talk and listen some more and maybe do some good, but when it is posted on the boards I can do nothing but sit and worry.

And if I am totally honest about this, there are even occasionally times when I just don't want to - times when I have come onto the ship for my own stress-relief and escape from being "strong" and this gives me "permission" to state gently that there is more appropriate support available.

This policy does not turn people away, nor does it forbid the offering of help or support. I see it as giving a baseline, and a very wise one. There are those who are unmoved by such cries for help, yes - those people don't need a policy such as this to walk by on the other side. They will do it anyway. Those who care, and that includes the administrative team I know, will continue to care and love and pray and support, but within the security of knowing that they are not expected to act as counsellors or experts in any way, and that it is not being callous to refer people to appropriate support.
 

---

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
Everyone please keep in mind that this policy is going to be administered by admins alone. We are not saying that shipmates should be responding to depressed or suicidal-sounding posts by saying, "Hey, get help!" If a host sees a post that expresses suicidal ideation, he or she will refer it to the admins. An admin will contact the poster privately and suggest that while Ship of Fools is an excellent source of online support, it cannot and should not take the place of professional help where warranted and of real-life caring friends.

Aside from the legal issues, which are important given the Ship's monetary inability to defend even the most frivolous of suits, suggesting that people who are feeling suicidal get other kinds of help while we continue to provide our own kind of support is really the most caring thing we can do. People will always receive the support this community can give.
 

---

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
Cross-posted with Smudgie - who has grasped exactly what we are trying to do. Thanks!
 

---

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
I've noticed it too Sophs and I see it, not so much as proof of the dependable kindness of the shipmates but as ironic discrepancy.

Here we have you and Dolphy talking about how supportive the ship has been while, at the same time, others are talking about how uncomfortable it was to have their fun times spoiled by some strangers in pain.

Now I've never been to the cafe, my server line is too slow, so I can't picture what it's like there. I do know that one time when I came here feeling upset in the middle of the night I was told by a shipmate (exact quote) "The whole wide world isn't interested in your personal life." I responded angrily and was promptly suspended by the hosts who obviously thought what he had said to me was just fine.

I think it's like this; nice people who have been here a long time like you and Dolphy are treated with sympathy but prickly people who are not well liked or not well known are treated very differently. You have total trust that what they say to these people will be tactful and kind and not cool and dismissive. Me, not so much.
 

---

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
Cross posted with Ruth who has finally given an example of how it would be handled that sounds much nicer than the impression I had from the OP of curt warnings followed by deleted posts.
 

---

Posted by Amorya (# 2652) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
Cross posted with Ruth who has finally given an example of how it would be handled that sounds much nicer than the impression I had from the OP of curt warnings followed by deleted posts.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
Cross posted with Ruth who has finally given an example of how it would be handled that sounds much nicer than the impression I had from the OP of curt warnings followed by deleted posts.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Erin:
But where have we said we're going to be turning people away for mentioning mental illness"

---

quote:

---

Erin wrote:
I know firsthand the Ship can be a wonderful source of tertiary support -- therapy (and medication if necessary) being primary support, real-life networks of family and friends being secondary. I'm glad when people find that here. I'm less glad, though, when I perceive that people are using it in lieu of the aforementioned primary and secondary support. And I and others have had the very distinct feeling that this has been happening of late.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Black Dog:
Don't flame my ass.

i've read this really quick, busy day, and i'm off to bed soon, so sorry if i'm blurring issues.

However from my experience this suicidal thing can often be a joke. And a master troll work at that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Black Dog:
Don't flame my ass.

---

quote:

---

However from my experience this suicidal thing can often be a joke. And a master troll work at that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by da_Musicman:

Have I missed anything or is that what it says in a nutshell?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Viola:


Well done da_Musicman

---

Yay
 

---

Posted by Erin (# 2) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by golden key:
When you're seriously depressed and need someone to *hear* you (and I'm not talking about counselling), you can hang on every word the other person says.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
I've noticed it too Sophs and I see it, not so much as proof of the dependable kindness of the shipmates but as ironic discrepancy...[snip]

You have total trust that what they say to these people will be tactful and kind and not cool and dismissive. Me, not so much.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
I don't read the prayer threads

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
Cross posted with Ruth who has finally given an example of how it would be handled that sounds much nicer than the impression I had from the OP of curt warnings followed by deleted posts.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Erin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by golden key:
When you're seriously depressed and need someone to *hear* you (and I'm not talking about counselling), you can hang on every word the other person says.

---

I'm probably going to make myself very unpopular with this but... the Ship isn't the place for this. It's really and truly not. Setting aside all of the other issues that went into this decision, by "hanging on every word the other person says", you're assigning a burden to others that they've neither asked for nor agreed to take on.

---

Ok, let me try this again!

What I'm trying to say is that a depressed person is apt to have that "hanging on every word" response to the policy e-mail that they'll get. And to any suggestion of "you can't talk about this here".

And, therefore, all such contact must be worded very carefully, with consideration of the depressed person's state of mind.

FWIW!
 

---

Posted by Viola (# 20) on :
 
Of course all contact will be worded carefully (which is more than this post will be, given the lateness of the hour). Ruth has given an example above, as have other admins. Other shipmates have also grasped the fact.

We care about our members - but we are in no way set up to deal with all types of issues. We were not formed with that in mind, and though the caring community here is a truly lovely offshoot of the boards, it is not the original function.

No-one is going to be sent away for posting their feelings. Private, individual contact will be made, suggesting their best way forward in their predicament.

(is there an echo in here?)

K.
 

---

Posted by Erin (# 2) on :
 
OK, that I can understand. I've sent out a couple of e-mails already, and it doesn't appear that I've said anything that has alienated or discouraged anyone, though I suppose only time will tell us that.
 

---

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:

quote:

---

This is the sound of my mind being boggled. I'm struggling to read this post:

---

quote:

---

would it be so hard to assume (in Christian charity after all) that our intention (even if you feel it is badly expressed) is caring and compassionate?

---

 

---

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
Twilight, I'm sorry, but you've misread HT's post. He hasn't said or implied that your words are stupid or awful. That's not what "my mind being boggled" means. What it does mean is that he finds your various statements jarring with each other. And I must say, I do as well. On the one hand you complain that people here have been cool and dismissive, and on the other you note that you have not read the All Saints board, which is exactly the place to go if you want to avoid cool, dismissive comments and instead receive warm support.

I'm sorry you had a cancer scare. And believe me, if you're ever going through something so scary anxiety-making again and you want support from people here, the folks in All Saints will welcome you with open arms. At they rate they use the smiley in there, it's a wonder they haven't burned the place down.

Black Dog: while it is true that there are folks out there who think pretending to be suicidal is funny, when someone posts about their suicidal ideations on the boards we have no way of knowing whether they belong to that small group of rather twisted people or whether they are truly troubled. If someone says they feel like dying, we are going to take it seriously and will take the actions Erin discussed and I reiterated. You don't have to take them seriously - but the admins do and will.
 

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Posted by Arrietty (# 45) on :
 
There have been people in the past who have appeared very emotionally dependent on SOF and this has worried me for their sakes. Because it is not a reliable form of support - it can go offline, people may not check in for a number of reasons, and it is not the right medium for advice/counselling/direction. If there are other websites that do provide such things via the bulletin boards I am not sure how effective they can be.

I am sure lot of people do as I do and send the occasional PM to someone if they sound stressed etc saying 'hang in there' or 'this happened to me too' but I would never get involved in anything 'professinal' such as counselling spiritual direction online, not becaus eof the SOF policy (though I would not ignore any SOF policy) but because it isn't helpful to them or to me.

In real life you choose a counsellor and when to be counselled, same with any other 'professional' intervention unless you are so bad that you are 'sectioned' (compulsorily committed to psychiatic care).

I have not notieed anyone giving inappropriate support on the boards but it's slightly worrying if anyone feels that they are responsible in any way for anyone posting here unless there is a 'real life' relationship as well. In which case I think it's more appropriate to ring them up or email them that conduct the 'helping' conversation on the boards. You wouldn't suggest meeting a friend in the middle of a shopping mall to offer care and support.
 

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Posted by mimsey (# 3757) on :
 
I've read through this whole thing now, and I think I agree with the new policy, but at the same time I just can't stop thinking about a story my dad tells, about a time when he lived in a house where the phone number was only one number different from the local suicide hotline.

One night a suicidal guy called the number. My dad answered, and discovered that this guy was in a phone box and on his last 10p (apparently the hotline wasn't free.) So my dad called the phonebox back and spent about an hour talking this guy out of killing himself.

I guess my point is that, while it may well be "unfair" to be expected to provide help, when you meet someone - off the internet or on it - who is seriously considering suicide, especially in such an immediate situation as the cafe, you have to be ready to look after them. I completely agree with suggesting professional help, but at the same if they really wanted to talk and just have someone listen, I don't think I could interrupt/stop them.

I don't know - I suppose every situation is different, and we will just have to approach this with sensitivity and caution, and not judge any situation too fast, policy or no policy.
 

---

Posted by Karl - Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
It is one thing to act in this way when circumstances conspire.

It is another for the Ship to set itself up for such circumstances.
 

---

Posted by Fr Cuthbert (# 3953) on :
 
The internet will help some people cope with grief or bereavement. It is very limited, and so much about careing is about look, physical manner, touch etc.

I have a concern that for some - especially lonely people in their late teens and twenties, internet friends and cyber talk, messaging etc. sadly replaces personal interaction.

A 21 year old young lady of a church I attend, who is painfully quiet and withdrawn in social interaction has built up an internet persona very different from this. No doubt this is an aspect of herself, but it does seem to me a dangerous thing to do.

On a Christian site such as this I am sure it is a good idea to encourage honesty and integrity about oneself. I also hope we may be alert to those for whom a large part of their life may centre around posting to this and other sites.

Here I am not criticising anyone, simply sharing a thought that crossed my mind.

Cuthbert
 

---

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
The Prayer Thread;
I think it's surprising that we are expected to judge the tone and attitude of this entire ship on one thread on one of the ten boards. I don't have the habit of going to All Saints because most of it is about meets that I will never be able to attend. I read the Prayer Thread one time and ended up feeling very drained. I have a prayer circle list from my church and after I go through it each day I don't feel able to do more. I wish I had the time and spiritual energy to pray for everyone in the world everyday but I just don't.

This reminds me of the man (B. M. Smith was it?) who complained about his treatment here and was repeatedly refered to the Fields of Gold Thread as though that was proof that the people on this board are all wonderful, caring people. All it proved was that if you're a really, really great lady and you happen to be dying, then we'll be nice to you. I think the board has to be judged as a whole if it's to be judged at all.

da_Musicman

quote:

---

Okay jumping in the deep end here.I read the new policy as the ship saying its can't help really sick people so you need to go somewhere else for that. We are still willing to pray for you and support you but we can't do anything else so don't expect us too.

---

quote:

---

and it is not the right medium for advice/counselling/direction.

---

quote:

---

I would never get involved in anything 'professinal' such as counselling spiritual direction online, not becaus eof the SOF policy (though I would not ignore any SOF policy) but because it isn't helpful to them or to me.

---

quote:

---

In real life you choose a counsellor and when to be counselled, same with any other 'professional' intervention unless you are so bad that you are 'sectioned' (compulsorily committed to psychiatic care).

---

quote:

---

You wouldn't suggest meeting a friend in the middle of a shopping mall to offer care and support.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:

da_Musicman

quote:

---

Okay jumping in the deep end here.I read the new policy as the ship saying its can't help really sick people so you need to go somewhere else for that. We are still willing to pray for you and support you but we can't do anything else so don't expect us too.

---

That's pretty much how I read it also and while you and Viola might think that's the perfect thing to say, I think that last line would be rude and hurtful. It presumes that the person you're talking to doesn't know the difference between a doctor and a message board and it jumps in with warnings about the limitations of our caring before it's even asked for. Imagine going to your friend's house with a tale of woe and getting that speech on the doorstep.

---

quote:

---

-"Several people have mentioned going through a Dark Night of the Soul for years or being depressed for a long time. Sometimes it's helpful to understand this about a person, but I agree with Erin--while happiness and health for all is the best possible situation, it can't be achieved by everyone in every case through Ship discussions."

---

quote:

---

It's also possible to pass along a tip or two to someone you feel could use it, while at the same time indicating that they follow up in real life.

---

Going back to the original quote from me, specially the point that not everyone is going to find health and happiness here at the Ship.... This is simply true. This is not a statement that one shouldn't be honest about their life situation, but a statement that
all the answers may not be here.

When we know that someone is going through a rough time, we know to pray for them, offer advice, encourage them, etc. I don't think that the majority of us want the Ship to be superficially happy or concerned only with theological debate. The Ship is as varied as life itself, and this is good.

Some of us have credentials, some of us have big hearts, some of us have time to be of service or to pray for others. There are many ways to support a person going through a rough time, and one of them is to encourage people to broaden their search for answers and help, especially if the situation seems dangerous.

We can give only what we have to give at the time, and then suggest that our help is limited. Referral is one of the foundations of many helping/healing professions. At it's best, it is a way to get people proper care.

Used in this way, it serves both the one doing the referral and the one being referred, and used in this way, it can make the Ship even more supportive.

Of course, we can't control how others are going to interpret our concern. One person might interpret the suggestion to seek RL professional help as an encouragement while another might interpret it as a rejection.

And yet, a sympathetic suggestion to seek professional help might well be made by a minister or priest or a devoted friend in RL, so I don't find the policy as outlined and clarified by Admins on this thread to be that much different.

sabine
 

---

Posted by sabine (# 3861) on :
 
I can't believe how long it took me to compose my post since several others have posted since I began. Such are the ways of a discussion board.

sabine
 

---

Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on :
 
Remembering my own experience with "damaged" people - addicts of various kinds as well as those with mental illnesses - I think it has to be borne in mind that some of the people posting this kind of message may actually be suffering from a different form of mental disturbance - and they're posting in the way they do just to wind us up.

Problem is of course, you just can't tell.
 

---

Posted by Annie P (# 3453) on :
 
I have read this thread, said "Jolly good" to the policy, and therefore thought that would be the end of the matter and I wouldn't feel the urge to post. But anyway...

I'm not sure if people are getting confused here, but just to try and clarify further, this policy (it seems to me) pertains to a particular situation.

People on the ship will always look out for others, and care and pray for others, so far as it is possible. However, when it comes to people feeling suicidal and espressing this on the boards, publicly, or even expressing feelings of extreem depression, and expecting fellow posters to respond, I believe that's when this policy will kick in.

I know for certain that I cannot help people in the best way who need help like that. Therefore I am glad that we will legit be able to say to people - please go and seek professional help.

I too, like Smudgie says, come here sometimes just for relaxation and care myself, (not in the way we're talking about here). Occasionally I've come away drained and concerned about individuals (through my own choice, please don't get me wrong, I would have helped what ever) so for me, this is here to protect caring types as well as those who are in need.

This helps two sets of people
1. Those who would seek to care for people, who should know that it is not their responsibility for someone's actions.
2.Those who need professional physiacriatric help.

All people are supported here, in so many different ways, and I know that will continue. We need a safety valve for serious cases, and this policy will help make sure we know where we all stand. It's not cruel, it doesn't stop the care in other ways, and I'm sure that in the future, you'll be glad that the admins have decided to take the decision.

It will be the admins who will, in the best possible way, contact people who they believe need that gentle nudge, NOT shipmates, so no one should feel the responsibility (bar them) to take actions. If you are unsure about how this will work, then I suggest you let some time go by and see how it all pans out. Then if there is anything going on which you still think is unfair, I would take it up with the appropriate people.

As for Molly - I don't think that was a stand alone case. If you can stand to take the time and look at many different threads - Depression thread, Calling God to Hell, Prayer Request thread, Sit down - you will see a variety of people posting helpful, encouraging things to many different people's needs. Even some of the more difficult customers here find their requests taken note of. It doesn't just take a great lady with an amazing personality. If it did depended on a persons character, what a shallow bunch of Christians we would be.
 

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Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tina:
Twighlight, you seem to feel that people here are using double standards.

But then you seem to imply that Shipmates should always be ready to provide any amount of care and support, and that it is wrong to say 'I'm sorry, I don't feel equipped to handle this', and yet you don't read the personal threads in All Saints because you find them too emotionally draining!

I'm not trying to flame you here, just pointing out what looks to me like an inconsistency.

---

quote:

---

It presumes that the person you're talking to doesn't know the difference between a doctor and a message board and it jumps in with warnings about the limitations of our caring before it's even asked for.

---

quote:

---

Imagine going to your friend's house with a tale of woe and getting that speech on the doorstep.

---

You seem to be forgetting that the doorstep owner is a person too – with their own needs, problems etc. Your expectation seems to be, as Tina points out, that the doorstep owner should be ready to provide endless care and support whenever it is asked for.

But, in some circumstances, the best response for the doorstep owner to their friend might be, “I’m sorry, although I love and care for you I can’t handle this. You need someone with the right experience and training to do so. I will support you as much as I can while you do this”

Tubbs
 

---

Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
Sabine....good words.

Now as for this one.....

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
....
When the day comes where I go to the Prayer Thread and say, "Please quit posting here, we are not able to cure your illness or bring your loved ones back from the dead. I care about you and I think you should know before you bare your souls like this that I am not a doctor or a faith healer so I advise you to seek professional doctors and grief counselors rather than post here where I'm afraid I'll face legal charges for listening to your troubles," then you can call me inconsistent.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Can somebody explain to me why this is not trollish behaviour?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
When the day comes where I go to the Prayer Thread and say, "Please quit posting here, we are not able to cure your illness or bring your loved ones back from the dead. I care about you and I think you should know before you bare your souls like this that I am not a doctor or a faith healer so I advise you to seek professional doctors and grief counselors rather than post here where I'm afraid I'll face legal charges for listening to your troubles," then you can call me inconsistent.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Erin:

I've just about had it with your willfull and deliberate misrepresentation of my words, Twilight. You are just about on my last damn nerve.

---

quote:

---

We are still willing to pray for you and support you but we can't do anything else so don't expect us too.
What is being said is that the Ship is not the place to come for help.For that you need to go elsewhere.As for all you know the person on the other side of the screen could be a mad axe murderer.
... whenever I see someone posting/saying something personal I assume they are in someway looking for care and support otherwise why say anything?Surely its better to let people know this before they bare their souls and then find out that we can't do anything...
Part of careing is knowing when to help and when to direct ot others to help.
There is the legal side as well ... it leaves itself open to all sort of trouble.People would be able to point their finger at the ship and say "It didn't help.It hurt me" and the ship wouldn't be able to say "We never claimed we could".
... most importantly it helps to protect us.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
I'm sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings but these decisions could mean life or death for someone.

---

Please let me try to explain why this statement is virtually the equivalent of emotional blackmail, seriously. I'm not belittling your concern.

As a volunteer many years with suicide/distress hotlines one of the first things we had to take on board with our training was that regardless of how 'well' or 'badly' we did with a would-be self harmer the decision to self harm was always their own responsibility. They weren't being driven to kill themselves because a volunteer happened not to strike the right note of 'aw, poor you'; and neither were they finding the will to live because someone was 'successfully' responding to them.

It is precisely because some of the issues that people bring could be life and death that they shouldn't be mucked about with or exposed to a potential advice-pool of several hundred would-be Freuds or freaks (no offence folks! .

Let's say Theoretical Self-harm Shipmate strikes up intense needy/advice relationship with Kind Listener. Self-harm Shipmate may gladly take on board all the great advice given; may go off on a cloud of loving support and good intentions based on Kind Listener's wise words. But may still decide to take the bottle of sleeping tabs at four in the morning when reality kicks in. Because that's her decision over her life.

Trained listeners and counsellors know how to cope, usually, when this happens (when they know it's happened); how not to curl up in a corner praying for the end of the world. But on the kind of format of these boards it's not even possible to gauge the likelihood of someone's response to what they read here, let alone assume responsibility regarding 'life and death for someone'.

When one considers how even light-hearted banter can sometimes be misconstrued on a thread debate, the heart shrinks to think of the potential damage when discussing issues of personal mortal destiny with a fragile person.

So yes there may be people involved with the boards who are struggling with life and death issues but apart from an SoF decision to implement a policy of individually hate-spamming all vulnerable would-be self harmers, no decisions made of the nature suggested by the OP will add to the suicide rate.

Be realistic. You don't have to go far on the Ship boards to see the genuine concern and support there is for people in need. That's as much that can be safely asked of such a community. And that's why I think that quote is, perhaps unconsciously but still, a kind of emotional blackmail to compel Shipmates or the Ship itself to assume a responsibility it simply doesn't have.
 

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Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :
 
Twilight, drop it. Enough already. I heard what you are saying (I heard it the first time) now just move on. Drop it, Drop it, Drop it. If you can not bring yourself to apologise for banging on, on this thread and making it twice as long as it should be then that is OK. But now is the time to just DROP IT, please.

P
 

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Posted by Erin (# 2) on :
 

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Originally posted by Twilight:
And I'm getting more and more confused as to why you think all my posts are directed at you.

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I think it's like this; nice people who have been here a long time like you and Dolphy are treated with sympathy but prickly people who are not well liked or not well known are treated very differently. You have total trust that what they say to these people will be tactful and kind and not cool and dismissive.

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quote:

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Cross posted with Ruth who has finally given an example of how it would be handled that sounds much nicer than the impression I had from the OP of curt warnings followed by deleted posts.

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my doubts had to do with the inate tactfulness of a few of the hosts not the kindness of their intentions

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Originally posted by RuthW:
If you don't like the Ship and the way it's run, there are lots of other bulletin boards out there.

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I was just concerned that the wording not leave anyone feeling rejected.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Twilight, drop it. Enough already. I heard what you are saying (I heard it the first time) now just move on. Drop it, Drop it, Drop it. If you can not bring yourself to apologise for banging on, on this thread and making it twice as long as it should be then that is OK. But now is the time to just DROP IT, please.

P

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This thread has 125 posts. Fourteen of them are mine. How does that make me responsible for making this thread twice as long as it needs to be. People like you keep saying things to me and I reply.

I'm sure your 2000 plus posts have all been of earth shaking importance. If not maybe you would like to apologize for wasting so much space.
 

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Posted by Ben26 (# 4201) on :
 

 

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Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:
I was just concerned that the wording not leave anyone feeling rejected.

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quote:

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Originally posted by RuthW:
If you don't like the Ship and the way it's run, there are lots of other bulletin boards out there.

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As much as you dislike me and as many times as you've invited me to leave it probably will not happen unless I'm forced to.

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Originally posted by Twilight:
You and Erin seem to think I'm talking about you personally but I don't know how the admin heirarchy works and who out of all the moderators will be assigned to what duty.

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