quote:

---

'Praise for them springing fresh from the Word.'

---

quote:

---

Sprung in completeness where His feet pass.

---

quote:

---

Born of the one light, Eden saw play

---

quote:

---

Morning has broken, like the first morning
Blackbird has spoken, like the first bird
Praise for the singing, praise for the morning
Praise for them springing fresh from the Word.

---

quote:

---

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

---

So far pretty orthodox.

Now the trick is to take this really quite advanced theological mysticism and apply it to the following two verses. The garden maybe Eden but it can also be Gethsemane with the completeness of salvation.

The third verse I always feel as moving towards heresy. I don't feel our own experience of creation was specially crafted for us, rather we are specially crafted parts of the greater whole. However the idea that God created the whole of creation, not just set it off at the start and let it unwind is pretty orthodox. However it proposes a very different causal mapping to any we experience within creation.

Jengie
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Well, Gracious Rebel, seeing as the hymn was originally a poem by Eleanor Farjeon, and, like many poems, later set to music as a hymn, I can see the difficulty.

S'funny, because I've never really troubled myself unduly (apart from when I used to sing it in school assemblies) as to what it means.

Looking at it again, I would suggest that it is the 'singing' and the 'morning' that the 'them' that the poet refers to.

In essence, what she's saying is this:

Let us give praise for the singing of the birds. Let us give praise for the morning, too. Let us give praise for both of them for they each come from God.

'Praise for them springing fresh from the Word.'

I would take 'the Word' as a reference to Christ rather than to scripture - Christ as the word of God. As well as the direct references to Eden there may be an echo or allusion to 'In the beginning was the Word' from John chapter 1.

As for 'sprung in completeness, where His feet pass' - well, the whole thing is an allusion to God walking in the Garden of Eden in the cool of the day, of course. It is the 'sweetness' of the wet garden that is 'sprung in completeness'. I always had the sense of the grass being 'springy' and bobbing up as it were as the Lord's feet passed, but I'm sure it doesn't really mean that.

I suspect it's more a case that the grass has sprung forth and been made complete as per the rest of Creation - 'and God saw that it was good.'

It's a lovely poem and a lovely hymn and I submit that the meaning isn't difficult. It's simply that each new days is a reminder of the first day that God created. There's something heavenly in the everyday ...

The difficulty in the syntax may be solved by those who're more into grammar than I am, but it would seem to me that 'singing' and 'morning' are the 'them' that are the object of the phrase 'Praise for them springing fresh from the Word.'
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Sorry, I missed the 'born of the one light/Eden saw play'. And I've now read Jengie's explanation of it.

Well, to stick with the literal meaning.

Mine is the sunlight!
Mine is the morning.
Born of the one light
Eden saw play!

Well, I take it that the poet is simply saying that the sunlight and the morning are both 'ours' as they are gifts of God's creation to us and that we are part of that creation too - 'born of the one light/Eden saw play!'

You've heard the expression 'light played across the wall' or 'across his face' etc? That's all that 'play' means here - light playing across created surfaces and giving them definition.

Like the first light of Eden, the daylight and the morning has its origin in God's divine fiat - he brought it into being and sustains everything.

I don't particularly see what is so 'unorthodox' about these sentiments although one could detect a note of pantheism or panentheism if one were so inclined.

Personally, I'm less bothered by that and more appreciative of the subtle internal rhymes and effects that Farjeon builds up. It's a delightful little piece, a real gem.

But then, I'm a lot less of a Puritan than Jengie Jon is these days ...


 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
Is not "orthodox". Is Orthodox. Is Uncreated Light, Energies of God, enhypostatically present and directly visible to unfallen persons in Eden!

Is refutation of Westernising pseudo-Papalist heresy of Barlaamist pigs!


 

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Posted by Hoagy (# 12305) on :
 
It's why I'm 6 month & 1 week into my sabbatical away from Church and loving it.

I know the words off by heart after 12 years of regular attendance and on average 5 out of every 6 weeks...and Hymns were a major factor after deciding that the Parish Share was seemingly all they( the Church ) was concerned about,as against spreading the Gospel...

I think Church would be more attractive to people if we were spared mawky hymns and Hymns that made me go "huh".

First thing I used to do after taking my pew was to check the Hymns,and used to cringe at some..

"If I were a Butterfly"..mainly for kids and none to be seen !...with "If I were a wiggly worm" and "Elephants waving their trunks" made me cringe as much as watching some of the middle of the road Congregation of about 40... (average age 60 ) do the actions

Then of course there was "walk in the light of the Lord" and usually sung like a dirge or worse when someone tried to get it going with a "Clap Clap" at the end of each verse..

After 6 months away from Church i can honestly say I do not miss the Hymns and will be moving on from a Church of England that is making no attempt to evangelize and imploding as it marches towards irrelevance and Disestablishment..

Rant over and off to Las Vegas for a 2 weeks break soon ,and someone else can sing mawky hymns & pay for the upkeep of a Listed Church that locals use as a convenience but never attend.


 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Well, I avoid any service that involves songs like that, Hoagy. It is possible to find services that don't ...

@Ken -

I'd thought of the Uncreated Light too ... but hadn't thought to give it the Fr Vassily treatment ...

A hymn that's often taxed my comprehension in parts is Charles Wesley's 'Love Divine' - even though we had it at our wedding (to Blaenwern of course) ...

I eventually realised it was something of a defence of the Wesley's particular (and peculiar) sanctification doctrines.

The bit that a former house-church leader and myself pondered over long and hard by email was:

'Let us see thy great salvation,
Perfectly restored in thee.'



How could God's great salvation be 'perfectly restored' apparently within himself? Weren't we the objects of salvation, not God himself?

Unless I'm missing something very obvious, I concluded that the literal meaning was something along the following lines:

'May we, who are perfectly restored by God, see His great salvation.'

Or, 'Let us, who are perfectly restored in thee, see thy great salvation.'

That's how I made sense of it at any rate.
 

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Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
:sigh: I love that hymn.
 

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Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :
 
I see that line as meaning that God's plan of salvation will be restored and fulfilled, in the way it should have been, and that this salvation will be 'in Christ'.

When jesus comes again he will bring salvation with him - not that there is n o salvation now, but that there is to be a final salvation when all is brought together in Christ.
 

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Posted by Zacchaeus (# 14454) on :
 
Gamiel I always understood 'let us see they great salvation, perfectly restored in thee' This way:-

Jesus is the great salvation, who died and was restored and joined God - so let us see Jesus in heaven.

Is how I've thought it - now somebody else will come along and tell me I am way off the mark...
 

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Posted by Chamois (# 16204) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
'Let us see thy great salvation,
Perfectly restored in thee.'



How could God's great salvation be 'perfectly restored' apparently within himself? Weren't we the objects of salvation, not God himself?

Unless I'm missing something very obvious, I concluded that the literal meaning was something along the following lines:

'May we, who are perfectly restored by God, see His great salvation.'

Or, 'Let us, who are perfectly restored in thee, see thy great salvation.'

That's how I made sense of it at any rate.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gracious rebel:

So what are the most obscure words that you regularly sing? And perhaps others may be able to shed light on what these words really mean.

Can anyone enlighten me, and/or post your own obscure hymn lyrics?!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
Is not "orthodox". Is Orthodox. Is Uncreated Light, Energies of God, enhypostatically present and directly visible to unfallen persons in Eden!

Is refutation of Westernising pseudo-Papalist heresy of Barlaamist pigs!

---

Is it just me having a really thick day, or is Ken beginning to channel Martin PCnot ?!
 

---

Posted by Gracious rebel (# 3523) on :
 

quote:

---

Well, I take it that the poet is simply saying that the sunlight and the morning are both 'ours' as they are gifts of God's creation to us and that we are part of that creation too - 'born of the one light/Eden saw play!'

You've heard the expression 'light played across the wall' or 'across his face' etc? That's all that 'play' means here - light playing across created surfaces and giving them definition.

Like the first light of Eden, the daylight and the morning has its origin in God's divine fiat - he brought it into being and sustains everything.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:

I'm not saying this to take the mickey, it's just that they don't teach this stuff very well at school.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
I will take the easy bit, but you need to take the whole verse:

quote:

---

Morning has broken, like the first morning
Blackbird has spoken, like the first bird
Praise for the singing, praise for the morning
Praise for them springing fresh from the Word.

---

Right the connection made in the first two lines is between the present situation and the creation. The third line moves to thanks for joys of bird song and mornings. The last line is saying that just as the first day and the first bird were a creation by God, so to is this morning and the blackbird. The use of "Word" is a reference back to the opening three verses of the gospel of John

quote:

---

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

---

So far pretty orthodox.

Now the trick is to take this really quite advanced theological mysticism and apply it to the following two verses. The garden maybe Eden but it can also be Gethsemane with the completeness of salvation.

The third verse I always feel as moving towards heresy. I don't feel our own experience of creation was specially crafted for us, rather we are specially crafted parts of the greater whole. However the idea that God created the whole of creation, not just set it off at the start and let it unwind is pretty orthodox. However it proposes a very different causal mapping to any we experience within creation.

Jengie

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aggie:A priest I once knew always used to say "Never learn your theology from hymns".

Needless to say he was not a fan of hymns in general.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by que sais-je:
On a slightly different tack. I grew up in a city and had no idea what a "moor" was when I first learned "We Three Kings". I imagined them travelling through field, fountains, more fields and fountains, then mountains

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Well, yes, they do touch on 'enjambement' in GCSE English lessons, Boogie.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

Is refutation of Westernising pseudo-Papalist heresy of Barlaamist pigs!

---

 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I'm not sure they covered it in my O Level back in the 1970s either, ken, but I know they cover it now as my daughter's just done her GCSEs - and I also went into an English GCSE lesson to help out last year in a nearby town and they were covering it there.

As for the dumbing down element ... well, my daughter knew and understood the term but I'm not sure she really understood its application or the difference it's meant to make ... but then, that's a rather rarefied point ...
 

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Posted by Pigwidgeon (# 10192) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lord Jestocost:
I had no problem with moors but I did wonder about the fountains. Why not just walk round them, like most people do?

---

It's pretty dry traveling through the desert, and since Jesus was probably NOT born on December 25, it was very likely a hot time of year too. Think of children running through a sprinkler on a hot day.

 

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Posted by iamchristianhearmeroar (# 15483) on :
 
One hymn I never understand at school - and greatly disliked singing due to Sandy's boring tune - was George Herbert's "Teach me my God and King".

Looking back on it now the first four verses aren't too troublesome but why on earth does the last verse seem to mix alchemy with theology?

"This is the famous stone
that turneth all to gold;
for that which God doth touch and own
cannot for less be told."

Any takers?
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
'Fountain', of course, originally didn't refer to the statuesque water-features we know and love today. It simply referred to rivers or streams. It's just a poetic way of saying that the Magi covered all conceivable types or terrain, 'field and fountain/moor and mountain ...'

Besides, something had to rhyme with 'mountain' didn't it?

There's also some neat alliteration there too, of course - Fs and Ms ... Field and Fountain, Moor and Mountain.

And contrasts, too, cultivated fields constrast with uncultivated moors and blasted heaths ... and fountains (or floods) contrast with mountains or high ground.

Simples.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Because it's a poem and it's a metaphor, Iamchristianhearmeroar.

The last verse sums up and comments upon all that has gone before. There's an 'alchemy' at work, the poet suggests, in all that he has described so far.

So, alchemically speaking, the bloke looking at the mirror doesn't just rest his on it, but looks through it and into the heavens ... something alchemical, some kind of 'change' takes place.

In the third verse we are told that 'nothing can be so mean' as not to be able to partake of the divine glory or nature - again, a 'change' takes place. What is mean or lowly can become 'bright and clean.'

Then the servant with the broomstick in verse 4, sweeping a room 'as for thy laws' ie. 'as unto the Lord' transforms the humble action into something 'fine'. An alchemy, a transformation takes place.

So, using the analogy of the Philosopher's Stone, Herbert suggests that 'this' ie. doing things 'as unto the Lord' or perceiving his glory in everything has a transforming effect on our outlook - 'turneth all to gold'.

Again, simples.
 

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Posted by The Great Gumby (# 10989) on :
 
Along the lines of the fountain, I always wondered what was up with the peasant in Good King Wenceslas. He's out gathering winter fuel, which is fair enough, but he lives a good league hence, right against the forest fence. I can't help wondering why he'd walk such a ridiculous distance when there must be a plentiful supply of firewood on his doorstep. Even allowing the possibility that the forest's private in some way (hence the fence), there are always plenty of sticks and twigs within a decent radius of any group of trees.

Oh, and:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Simples.

---

You're dead to me.
 

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Posted by Lord Jestocost (# 12909) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Besides, something had to rhyme with 'mountain' didn't it?

---

"That's not countin' moor and mountain ...?"

Okay, no.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I nearly didn't type the 'simples' but then ... I gave way ...



I promise not to do it again. There, can I be resurrected.

@Lord Jestacost ... ha ha ... but this thread is tempting me to start a Purgatory one asking why some people are so 'literal' when it comes to hymns ...



Oh - and on the alchemy thing (for whoever asked), Herbert was writing in the 17th century when alchemy was rather a big deal. If he'd been writing today he might have alluded to quantum physics or something ...

'Look folks,' he's saying,'Transformation wrought by God, that's the real alchemy ...'

I dunno. What DO they teach in school these days?
 

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Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
Along the lines of the fountain, I always wondered what was up with the peasant in Good King Wenceslas. He's out gathering winter fuel, which is fair enough, but he lives a good league hence, right against the forest fence. I can't help wondering why he'd walk such a ridiculous distance when there must be a plentiful supply of firewood on his doorstep. Even allowing the possibility that the forest's private in some way (hence the fence), there are always plenty of sticks and twigs within a decent radius of any group of trees.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sparrow:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
Along the lines of the fountain, I always wondered what was up with the peasant in Good King Wenceslas. He's out gathering winter fuel, which is fair enough, but he lives a good league hence, right against the forest fence. I can't help wondering why he'd walk such a ridiculous distance when there must be a plentiful supply of firewood on his doorstep. Even allowing the possibility that the forest's private in some way (hence the fence), there are always plenty of sticks and twigs within a decent radius of any group of trees.

---

He lives a good league hence from where Wenceslas and the page are, presumably in da castle. He lives on the edge of the forest, by the fence, and he probably does just have to step outside his back door to gather wood.

---

Never mind what he was collecting. I have often wondered how did a Czhec King bcome a favorite in England, and just about everywhere else ?
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Thinking about it, though, 'yonder peasant' must have wandered a fair distance in order to be visible from the castle - 'a good league' would be a pretty long way to be able to pick him out and recognise his features. Even if he'd wandered 'half a league, half a league, half a league onward' the page would have had difficulty making him out unless he had powerful binoculars ...

So, perhaps Sparrow and I are wrong after all.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
If wikipedia is be believed, PaulBC, Wenceslas (who was a Duke, not a King, fancy that ...) had become popular in England quite early on.

John Mason Neale the hymn writer was quite into High Church traditions so he'd have picked it up through a liking for the 'medievalism' that was a feature of High Church Anglicanism back in the mid-19th century when he wrote the carol.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_King_Wenceslas
 

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
And it is John Mason Neale's commemoration day tomorrow.
 

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Posted by Padre Joshua (# 13100) on :
 
If there's that much snow on Dec. 26 ("the Feast of Stephen"), he's probably already burned up the sticks that were around his cabin. As the winter draws on, he'll have to wander further and further afield in his search for firewood.

Unless he poaches wood from the forest, that is.

So he's looking around close enough to the castle that Wenceslas can see him and recognize what he's doing.
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aggie:
A priest I once knew always used to say "Never learn your theology from hymns".

Needless to say he was not a fan of hymns in general.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aggie:
A priest I once knew always used to say "Never learn your theology from hymns".

---

quote:

---

Mine is the sunlight!
Mine is the morning.
Born of the one light
Eden saw play!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The bit that a former house-church leader and myself pondered over long and hard by email was:

'Let us see thy great salvation,
Perfectly restored in thee.'



How could God's great salvation be 'perfectly restored' apparently within himself? Weren't we the objects of salvation, not God himself?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by que sais-je:
And though I know the words I still hear "Bright the vision that delighted/once the sight of Judas' ear". Can any one actually sing "Judah's seer"?

---

Similarly, I wonder to myself (jokingly, of course) how we know Mary was wearing purple when Jesus was born: "Thou who inviolate didst bring forth God the Word..."

quote:

---

Originally posted by venbede:
"Prostrate before thy throne to lie, and gaze and gaze on thee."

Hang on, Father Faber. How can you gaze at someone when you are prostrate before them?

---

Maybe bring a mirror?

OK, being serious now:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ecumaniac:
I had a nun friend who always used to say "lex orandi, lex credendi" which I interpreted to mean that people will eventually come to believe the stuff that they keep singing, so pick the hymns carefully! Maybe the modern version is "garbage [hymns] in, garbage [theology] out"?

---

ABSOLUTELY. Our corporate prayer, which includes the hymns we sing, forms us in thought, word, and deed. Or it should, anyway.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hoagy:
Jesus "wanting me for a sunbeam " huh ?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Thinking about it, though, 'yonder peasant' must have wandered a fair distance in order to be visible from the castle - 'a good league' would be a pretty long way to be able to pick him out and recognise his features. Even if he'd wandered 'half a league, half a league, half a league onward' the page would have had difficulty making him out unless he had powerful binoculars ...

So, perhaps Sparrow and I are wrong after all.

---

That's precisely what I don't get. Obviously, King and Page are in the castle, the peasant's clearly identifiable, which means he's very close to the castle, but he lives miles away (Ye Olde Wiki says a league is traditionally an hour's walk), and from the mention of the bright moon, it appears to be the middle of the night which makes identification harder. Also, 26th December is very early to be running out of firewood, with the coldest winter months still ahead.

It's a nice tune and story, but it doesn't make a bit of sense.
 

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Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
At school I took the line "Once the sight of Judah's seer" to mean "Once the sight of Judah's sneer", ie that he was mocked by the Jews.
 

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Posted by bib (# 13074) on :
 
I always cringe at the lines in Ein Feste Burg
'And though they take our life, goods, honour, child and wife.' I really can't cope with being listed as part of the goods possessed.It seems strange to me that this line persists when other sexist language has been purged.Certainly makes me go Huh!
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
On the Wenceslas thing ... it's exactly that, a story ... it isn't meant to make sense in a scientific kind of way ...

@Churchgeek - 'I think "Perfectly restored in thee" refers back to "us." As in, "Let us, perfectly restored in thee, see thy great salvation." But that didn't scan or rhyme, so it's worded as it is. You could also re-word it: "Let us see thy great salvation, being perfectly restored in thee," where "being" (or, "having been," if you prefer) refers to "us."

Yes, that's how I read it.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
@Gill H - please don't knock Mr Herbert, he's one of my faves ...

Donne, too.

But you're right, he does use some extreme imagery. God 'ravishing' ie. raping us - for one thing ...

But that's the whole beauty of The Metaphysicals, the way that they used striking or everyday imagery to impart an indication of the Divine.

Theirs was a world where physics and metaphysics had yet to divide. They were active in trade and commerce, they trailed a pike or pushed a pen. That's what's so splendid about them.
 

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Posted by (S)pike couchant (# 17199) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by georgiaboy:
[

That said, the hymnal in some instances has 'advanced' the church's theology. To quote a couple:
Stanza 4 of #278:
'Sing the chiefest joy of Mary …
and the Lord … brought her to his heavenly home;
where, raised … with saints and angels …
she beholds her Son and Savior reigning as the Lord of Love.'
or Stanza 2 of #618:
'O higher than the cherubim …
Thou bearer of the eternal Word,
most gracious, magnify the Lord.'
(and this latter was also in the prdecessor volume of 1940!)

And the General Convention, which would probably have scattered in panic at a whiff of incense, happily approved these rather 'spikey' sentiments.

(And a Goode Thinge, Too!)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
@Gill H - please don't knock Mr Herbert, he's one of my faves ...

Donne, too.

But you're right, he does use some extreme imagery. God 'ravishing' ie. raping us - for one thing ...

But that's the whole beauty of The Metaphysicals, the way that they used striking or everyday imagery to impart an indication of the Divine.

Theirs was a world where physics and metaphysics had yet to divide. They were active in trade and commerce, they trailed a pike or pushed a pen. That's what's so splendid about them.

---

One hymn that makes me go "ick" is "Lo, He Comes with Clouds Descending," on the second verse:

quote:

---

Those who set at nought and sold him,
Pierced him, nailed him to the tree,
Deeply wailing, deeply wailing, deeply wailing
Shall the true Messiah see.

---

I don't see how this can be dismissed as anything but anti-Jewish, given the line "Shall the true Messiah see."

Although a priest I know claimed he always heard the "deeply wailing" as referring to Christ wailing on the Cross, and loved that expression of Christ's sharing in and knowing our suffering. Um, no. And that doesn't remove the anti-Judaism, anyway.
 

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Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
Not knocking at all. I did the Metaphysical poets at A level and loved them. Still giggle at the working breast though...

(And yes, the 'ravish' image is much worse than any 'Jesus is my boyfriend' song!)
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
But still a lot better written, Gill H ...

On the anti-Jewish thing, it's the Orthodox you want to watch with that one. I know some Orthodox who'd like to take the red pen to some of their ancient liturgies when it comes to references to the Jews ...

And I'd love to see them do so.

Equally, whilst not disagreeing with their theology when it comes to knocking Nestorius and other 'hereticks' some of the language in the liturgies used for triumph of Orthodoxy over Arianism and Nestorianism and all the other -isms can be very intemperate indeed. I know several Orthodox who feel queasy about having to sing how Nestorius must have been mentally deranged in some way ...

Ancient polemics ... rather intemperate for modern tastes ...
 

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Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
Yonks ago I was recommended a book by an American Lutheran who was trying to tie up Christianity and Sex.

He quoted "Lo he comes with clouds" as an example of how S'n'M sex could have a Christian equivalent. (With what rapture, with what rapture, with what rapture/ Gaze we on those glorious scars!)

But Charles Wesley is not as vanilla as might be thought. It was only because as a schoolboy I was A very innocent and B as inherently gay not finding the female anatomy erotic, that I didn't find the line about "Let me to the bosom fly" suggestive.
 

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Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Ancient polemics ... rather intemperate for modern tastes ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by churchgeek:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Ancient polemics ... rather intemperate for modern tastes ...

---

Although still in play in political debates.


As for the "working breast," I think it makes perfect sense to anyone who has ever sobbed. Similar to "heartwrenching."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by bib:
I always cringe at the lines in Ein Feste Burg
'And though they take our life, goods, honour, child and wife.' I really can't cope with being listed as part of the goods possessed.It seems strange to me that this line persists when other sexist language has been purged.Certainly makes me go Huh!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by venbede:
It was only because as a schoolboy I was A very innocent and B as inherently gay not finding the female anatomy erotic, that I didn't find the line about "Let me to the bosom fly" suggestive.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zappa:

quote:

---

Originally posted by venbede:
It was only because as a schoolboy I was A very innocent and B as inherently gay not finding the female anatomy erotic, that I didn't find the line about "Let me to the bosom fly" suggestive.

---

Errrm, don't blokes have them parts? Or was Abraham a sheila? Or am I confused?

---

Surely that’s a common poetic idea? In Henry V Mistress Quickly tells of Falstaff’s death, saying, ‘Nay, sure, he's not in hell: he's in Arthur's
bosom, if ever man went to Arthur's bosom.’

And as Zappa notes, what about Abraham – Jesus relates in Luke’s gospel that Lazarus ‘died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom’.

Besides Jesu lover of my soul is one of my favourites. So there.

 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Perhaps 'wind' and 'find' were closer rhymes when the hymn was written than they are now, Kaplan?

Although I'm not always convinced when some people find exact rhymes in some of Shakespeare's sonnets, for instance, where the rhyme scheme seems a bit forced to us. English has never had that many rhyming words and I'm sure some of these rhymes sounded almost as forced in Shakespeare's day - let alone when we get to 19th century hymn writers and so on.

You're right about that bit in 'Praise to the holiest ...' it is very convoluted. Newman was a better prose writer than hymn writer, but 'Lead kindly light' isn't bad.
 

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Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
I know I was old fashioned even in the 60s, but I've never known contemporary usage of the word bosom for anything other than women. Particularly as a schoolboy, even a pure minded schoolboy such as I was.

"Thou didst note my working breast" never worried me (although what does it mean?) perhaps because it was in the singular (and I like Herbert, like many others here.)
 

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Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
Just noticed churchgeek above on "working breast". Thank you.

In the C18 wind did rhyme with find, just as join rhymed with mine.
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

In Make Me A Captive Lord, the "wind" in "it varies with the wind" has to rhyme with "find" which, coupled with the context ("spring of action") requires a rather jarring clockwork metaphor, which is probably why congregations sing it as "wind" as in meteorology.

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quote:

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Originally posted by cosmic dance:

quote:

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Originally posted by bib:
I always cringe at the lines in Ein Feste Burg
'And though they take our life, goods, honour, child and wife.' I really can't cope with being listed as part of the goods possessed.It seems strange to me that this line persists when other sexist language has been purged.Certainly makes me go Huh!

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There are commas between each of the items taken, which suggests to me its simply a list. Its not setting up a category "Goods: honour, child and wife." And something has to rhyme with 'life'. I suggest you are reading back into the verse from a modern perspective something that was not intended.

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I'm not familiar with that hymn. Was it intended that only men (and coupled lesbians) would ever sing it?


Since someone mentioned it, "Here I raise my Ebenezer" is a puzzler for many people, to the point that sometimes the wording gets changed. I googled it and found this rather nice explanation, since I couldn't remember myself (other than the vague memory that it's something in the Bible). A stone monument to God's help. There's a church in Detroit called "Second Ebenezer Baptist Church" - makes you wonder what happened to their first Ebenezer.
 

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Posted by Chamois (# 16204) on :
 
A hymn that always makes me go 'Huh?' is 'Eternal Father strong to save'. I don't have any trouble understanding the words but I've always wondered why on earth I'm singing an impassioned plea on behalf of 'those in peril on the sea'. I mean, who's to know if there actually is anybody in peril on the sea at any particular time?

It's a great tune, though.

Benjamin Britten must have felt the same way about it. He included it as a congregational sing-along in his "Noyes Fludde" at the point when Noah's Ark is battling through the storm. Whenever I hear that show it always makes me giggle.
 

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Posted by Balaam (# 4543) on :
 
Brightest and best are the sons of the morning.

Erm.... <thinks> .... no it still sounds odd.
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
Churchgeek

This is Luther's hymn of the Reformation. The original fourth verse is:

quote:

---

Das Wort sie sollen lassen stahn
Und kein’n Dank dazu haben;
Er ist bei uns wohl auf dem Plan
Mit seinem Geist und Gaben.
Nehmen sie den Leib,
Gut, Ehr’, Kind und Weib:
Lass fahren dahin,
Sie haben’s kein’n Gewinn,
Das Reich muss uns doch bleiben.

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quote:

---

The Word they still shall let
Remain nor any thanks have for it;
He is at ease on the map
With his gifts and Spirit.
Take the body,
Well, fame, child and woman:
Let all go,
You have nothing won;
The Kingdom our remaineth.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Chamois:
A hymn that always makes me go 'Huh?' is 'Eternal Father strong to save'. I don't have any trouble understanding the words but I've always wondered why on earth I'm singing an impassioned plea on behalf of 'those in peril on the sea'. I mean, who's to know if there actually is anybody in peril on the sea at any particular time?

It's a great tune, though.

Benjamin Britten must have felt the same way about it. He included it as a congregational sing-along in his "Noyes Fludde" at the point when Noah's Ark is battling through the storm. Whenever I hear that show it always makes me giggle.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chamois:
A hymn that always makes me go 'Huh?' is 'Eternal Father strong to save'. I don't have any trouble understanding the words but I've always wondered why on earth I'm singing an impassioned plea on behalf of 'those in peril on the sea'. I mean, who's to know if there actually is anybody in peril on the sea at any particular time?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by cosmic dance:

quote:

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Originally posted by bib:
I always cringe at the lines in Ein Feste Burg
'And though they take our life, goods, honour, child and wife.' I really can't cope with being listed as part of the goods possessed.It seems strange to me that this line persists when other sexist language has been purged.Certainly makes me go Huh!

---

There are commas between each of the items taken, which suggests to me its simply a list. Its not setting up a category "Goods: honour, child and wife." And something has to rhyme with 'life'. I suggest you are reading back into the verse from a modern perspective something that was not intended.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Balaam:
Brightest and best are the sons of the morning.

Erm.... <thinks> .... no it still sounds odd.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
t 'Lead kindly light' isn't bad.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jengie Jon:

quote:

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Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

In Make Me A Captive Lord, the "wind" in "it varies with the wind" has to rhyme with "find" which, coupled with the context ("spring of action") requires a rather jarring clockwork metaphor, which is probably why congregations sing it as "wind" as in meteorology.

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No the rhymes perfect you are singing the wrong word. The metaphor is mechanical not elemental, and refers to the fact clockwork often goes at different paces according to how recently it was wound up.

Jengie

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quote:

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Originally posted by venbede:
In the C18 wind did rhyme with find, just as join rhymed with mine.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by churchgeek:
Since someone mentioned it, "Here I raise my Ebenezer" is a puzzler for many people, to the point that sometimes the wording gets changed. I googled it and found this rather nice explanation, since I couldn't remember myself (other than the vague memory that it's something in the Bible). A stone monument to God's help. There's a church in Detroit called "Second Ebenezer Baptist Church" - makes you wonder what happened to their first Ebenezer.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chamois:
A hymn that always makes me go 'Huh?' is 'Eternal Father strong to save'. I don't have any trouble understanding the words but I've always wondered why on earth I'm singing an impassioned plea on behalf of 'those in peril on the sea'. I mean, who's to know if there actually is anybody in peril on the sea at any particular time?

---

There is a huge body of hymns which employ maritime imagery, not just ships but lifeboats, lighthouses and lifelines.

We find it difficult today to imagine how perilous and uncertain sea travel used to be.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Just as you've sold your soul for mess of Brethren pottage, eh? Kaplan?



I think it was another one of these that was a poem before it became a hymn, hence no reference to the Godhead.

Of course, Catholics don't really believe in God, do they? they believe in the Virgin Mary instead. That explains why Newman didn't mention God in his hymns ...

On the pronunciation of 'again' - it might be that the examples you've given indicate that it was pretty much pronounced as it is in English as she is spoke in these islands today - ie. to rhyme with both 'pain' and 'men' depending on where the speaker comes from or even interchangeably.

Where I grew up we always pronounced it to rhyme with 'men' - elsewhere they pronounced it to rhyme with 'pain.'
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

I suspect first that they think the writer is referring to the unpredictability of the wind as in John 3:8, and secondly, that they find the intrusion of technological imagery into hymnody distasteful, as do I.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:


Of course, Catholics don't really believe in God, do they?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
You need to look at that, the creature in creating just copies its creator, thus to use imagery from what we have created for ourselves just reflects back our nature as created beings.

Jengie

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
...they find the intrusion of technological imagery into hymnody distasteful, as do I.

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Presumably you mean modern technological imagery. Or do you dislike hymns that refer to buildings (Be Thou My Vision), weaponry (Jerusalem), farming (We Plough The Fields And Scatter), husbandry (The Lord's My Shepherd) et al - all state-of-the-art technological advances at one time - as well?
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 


So there's a direct link between Newman crossing the Tiber (after he wrote 'Lead Kindly Light') and later, liberal apostates like Don Cupitt is there, Kaplan?


 

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Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aggie:
A priest I once knew always used to say "Never learn your theology from hymns".

Needless to say he was not a fan of hymns in general.

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Really? I tend to the view that hymns are what you sing to correct any errors you might have been exposed to in the sermon...
 

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Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Presumably you mean modern technological imagery.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:


So there's a direct link between Newman crossing the Tiber (after he wrote 'Lead Kindly Light') and later, liberal apostates like Don Cupitt is there, Kaplan?

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Direct? Hardly.

I would have thought that instead of crossing the Tiber, he dived in like Horatio; "O,Tiber, Father Tiber, to whom the Romans pray....And with his harness on his back plunged headlong in the tide".
 

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Posted by Enigma (# 16158) on :
 
In normal use the hymn below I find to be rather lovely.
'Dear Lord
and Father of mankind
Forgive our foolish ways.
Reclothe us in our rightful minds
In purer lives Thy service find
In deeper reverence, praise.'

However, it did make me go a bit 'Huh?' when chosen as a wedding hymn!

The couple are not now together but I hope they are, in fact, forgiven.
 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
Three of my friends, over the years, have had this hymn at their weddings!

To slight sniggers in the congregation.


 

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Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :
 
An elderly acquaintance of mine had it for her wedding, it being a favourite hymn of both herself and her husband. Looking at it in the longer term, she was glad she did as it gave additional meaning to it when it was sung at her husband's funeral. So in the longer run, perhaps not so odd, if a little poignant.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
It's a tangent, of course, Kaplan, but there are the stories (myths?) of the elderly Newman being seen sadly and wistfully lurking outside his former parish saying, 'I was rector there once ...' or similar.

Personally, I have no big issue with Newman choosing to cross the Tiber, the logic of 'Apologia Pro Vita Sua and so on inclines almost inexorably in that direction - although I've heard Orthodox claim that it would have led him in their direction had they been a viable proposition in 19th century Britain.



But of course, it's always easier to trace where the 'kindly light' has led us after the event ...

And to justify our ultimate destination to ourselves whichever way things pan out.

My own view is that he picked a particularly inauspicious time to plunge across (or 'in' as you might prefer to see it ... ).

I feel sorry for the guy. No sooner does he take the plunge then they go and vote the Papal Infallibility thing in ... (now IngoB, Triple Tiara and Trisagion will come along and tell me that this was always there from the outset ...)

Still, like you, I am strangely moved by 'Lead Kindly Light' - it might be the falling cadences of the rhythm and the tune - and I do respect Newman for his principles. It can't have been easy, Cardinal's hat or no Cardinal's hat.

I'm not sure I'd have got on very well with him in real life, though, he seems a bit of a cold fish. He'd probably be one of the Spock-like ones if he was posted here aboard Ship.

Still ... digression over, back to the OP.
 

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Posted by Balaam (# 4543) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
We find it difficult today to imagine how perilous and uncertain sea travel used to be.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
he seems a bit of a cold fish

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mudfrog:
It's actually
Brightest and best of the sons of the morning,
Dawn on our darkness and lend us thine aid;
Star of the east, the horizon adorning,
Guide where our Infant Redeemer is laid.

The request for guidance is made to the star of Bethlehem, which of all the morning stars is the brightest.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
In Newman's Praise To The Holiest In The Height, I think I can just about unravel:

O generous love, that he who smote
In Man for man the foe,
The double agony in Man
For man should undergo.

but it is syntacticaly infelicitous, and surely it detracts from a hymn if one's mind has to race dementedly while singing to straighten out convolutions.

---

quote:

---

Be Thou my vision, O Lord of my heart;
Naught be all else to me, save that Thou art.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Poileplume:

For years I have wanted to ask this question. In “Lo! He comes with clouds descending”, what have the clouds got to do with it? If clouds descend it is raining.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by manfromcaerdeon:

As an altar boy, I was troubled constantly around Christmas time by Christina Rossetti's reference to "a breast full of milk" from In the bleak mid-winter. Apart from anything else, I am sure it is biologically incorrect.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by poileplume:
For years I have wanted to ask this question. In “Lo! He comes with clouds descending”, what have the clouds got to do with it? If clouds descend it is raining.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Well, you learn something new every day, Manfromcaerdeon ...

I hadn't realised it was 'What I can I give him ...'

Just shows.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I couldn't agree more, Old Hundredth.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I was teasing you about the Brethren 'pottage', of course. I didn't hang around very long, but I was quite impressed by the Brethren folk I met back in the early '80s but the whole things seemed hopelessly shot-through with dispensationalism back then ... but we've had this discussion before ...

Incidentally, has there been any distinctive Brethren contributions to hymnody?

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quote:

---

while current thinking is that we should axe the incomprehensible old hymns, my take is that we should instead educate the punters.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
where we sang the ancient Irish hymn Be Thou my Vision, O Rord of My Heart in Elizabethan English.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
where we sang the ancient Irish hymn Be Thou my Vision, O Rord of My Heart in Elizabethan English.

---

Odd that, since it was translated from the Irish in 1905 (versified 1912). I'd say Standard Poetic Diction meself.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:
What I was trying to say was that poetic diction - common in both secular and religious verse - is an artificial and archaism-ridden form of speech, but it would still be a fair distance from any actual 16th C demotic. It's better to think of it as a literary style which would still have been considered proper (despite Wordsworth's best efforts) even in the 20th C.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mudfrog:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Well, you learn something new every day, Manfromcaerdeon ...

I hadn't realised it was 'What I can I give him ...'

Just shows.

---

Not in our book it's not.
We sing, 'Yet, what can I give him? Give my heart.'

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
We use Mission Praise in the small traditional Breaking of Bread, and Powerpoint slides in the main family service.

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I'm so dreadfully sorry for you, KC
 

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Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:


I preached at a Chinese church this morning (in English, I hasten to add!) where we sang the ancient Irish hymn Be Thou my Vision, O Lord of My Heart in Elizabethan English.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fr Weber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by cosmic dance:

quote:

---

Originally posted by bib:
I always cringe at the lines in Ein Feste Burg
'And though they take our life, goods, honour, child and wife.' I really can't cope with being listed as part of the goods possessed.It seems strange to me that this line persists when other sexist language has been purged.Certainly makes me go Huh!

---

There are commas between each of the items taken, which suggests to me its simply a list. Its not setting up a category "Goods: honour, child and wife." And something has to rhyme with 'life'. I suggest you are reading back into the verse from a modern perspective something that was not intended.

---

An alternate translation reads :

"Let goods and kindred go,
This mortal life also"

You'd have to do some serious Moral Outrage Gymnastics to read kindred as a subset of goods there.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LutheranChik:
"Come, Thou Fount of Every Blessing"'s line, "Here I raise my Ebenezer" -- another line that regularly perplexes even regular contemporary churchgoers as well as casual visitors. I think if you polled the members of my congregation, they'd tell you that the line was referring, somehow, to Ebenezer Scrooge.

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