Ship of Fools: Eccles: What would have to be different...

Thread: Eccles: What would have to be different... Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

... in another thread, Belle Ringer said:

quote:
Interesting thread. What I'm missing from a number of the posts about what style or catering to what people "want" is passion. I don't necessarily mean loudness or waiving hands in air, but doing church in a way that *you* delight in, that pulls *you* into God, that makes Sunday morning (or whatever time) the highlight of *your* week.

To which I responded in a predictable Marvin the Paranoid Android manner that I couldn't even conceive of such a thing.

But the thought lingered.

So, what would have to be different for a church service, however defined, to actually be the highlight of *your* week?

Because I'm damned if I know [Biased]

[ 29. April 2013, 22:03: Message edited by: seasick ]

Posted by Caissa (# 16710) on :

I would need modern praise music, a praise band, unconventional liturgies and intellectually challenging sermons.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

The presence of Christ under forms of bread and wine*, in line with the continuing practice of his followers since the resurrection.

What could be more awe inspiring and more mundane?

* OK, and in the scriptures proclaimed in the community.

[ 29. November 2012, 19:24: Message edited by: venbede ]

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

I'm not sure a church service ever is the highlight of my week (and I'm an ordinand). Maybe it's just too long since I've been to a very good service! I don't go to church because I really enjoy it (sometimes I do; more often I'm getting frustrated at various things).

Perhaps the only service that ever really gets me excited is Solemn Evensong (preferably plainsong) and Benediction. So something austere, worshipful and sacramentally-focused, with lots of space for prayer, silence and elbows. A good, challenging sermon makes a difference too.

Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
So, what would have to be different for a church service, however defined, to actually be the highlight of *your* week?

I like this question very much! [Big Grin]

For me, a great church meeting / service shakes me out of my comfortableness and encourages me to believe I can live a more godly life.

As for what might cause those two things, hearing stories from people (in my local church, I mean) who have done something courageous or remarkable would do it - I remember recently a friend who bumped into some girls near her house, realised their were agitated rather than just being boisterous, and helped them out of a tricky situation. The mother of one of the girls rang my friend the next day to thank her profusely.

Hearing that story firstly got me thinking that I'd never have stopped to see if the girls needed any help, but then I saw that I could do that sort of thing - it was an act of goodness which is in my power to do.

Sermons just don't seem to provoke this reaction in me - personal stories, and also direct encouragement / prayer from people, I find much more effective.

Oh, another thought. Having the opportunity to contribute in an active way to the service is very faith-building and inspiring for me. Playing an instrument, leading a guided meditation, giving a talk, distributing Communion bread and wine, sharing a story, preparing a craft or art activity aimed at helping people connect with God; anything like that helps to make the church meeting a highlight of the week for me.

Posted by FooloftheShip (# 15579) on :

Really fantastic music, beautifully performed. Bach, Messaien, Victoria. Some a capella, some accompained singing, and of course the organ in full fine voice.

This is an offering of which I would like to take my part. This is the worship of my heart, and therefore what ignites my passion. It is not decisive whether I'm participating in the making of the music or not, but it does constitute the icing on the cake.

Posted by FooloftheShip (# 15579) on :

And yes, bringing some of the most beatiful music, like Durufle's Requiem, to the liturgical life for which it was written.

Or one Vittoria's mass settings.

The heart sings.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

Space and silence, time to be in the presence of God and space to allow the still small voice. Liturgy that's framed to give that space and time. Unaccompanied chant and plainsong by candlelight. Or the rhythm and choreography of a full liturgical service that engages all the senses.

Posted by Horseman Bree (# 5290) on :

But what would be attractive to people who haven't become sold on a specific form of doing things that is not of general interest? Intricate high-toned music is an acquired taste, after all.

Personally, the thought of being subjected to a certain type of intricate high-toned music "because it is good for me" would guarantee that I'd never go back to that church. And the attitude of a certain priest in my deanery that such music is a prerequisite for the Eucharist makes me feel excluded before we start.

NOT saying that YOU shouldn't like it, just indicating that "in-group" jargon and taste doesn't necessarily appeal to everyone.

Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on :

Weekly Eucharist would be just lovely. But otherwise I'm pretty well set right now.

(We're a United Methodist congregation that worships like a relaxed Episcopal congregation. Anglo-Methodist, in other words.)

Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on :

Upon re-reading the OP, I feel that I need to expand a bit on my thoughts.

I find that church is already the highlight of my week. For me it is a celebration of God's goodness and a time of prayer and thanksgiving.

It is a time to hear the Word read and expounded upon. I don't so much teach as encourage -- there are teaching times at other points of the week. I focus more on finding ways in which the readings are relevant to the gathered community and communicating something that my listeners can think about all week long. I don't preach as long as most of my UM colleagues do; I shoot for 10-15 minutes.

I firmly believe that the service isn't really complete unless we gather around the Lord's Table. Right now my congregation celebrates on the first Sunday of the month. During Advent we will do it weekly, and I'm hoping that eventually we can do it weekly as a matter of course. I'm trying to be sensitive to the needs of the congregation, however, and will submit my wishes to their needs.

So there's the wider explanation. I'm really happy with things at church right now, and even if I wasn't in a position of leadership I would definitely be worshiping in that community of faith.

Posted by roybart (# 17357) on :

I guess you have to work to an extent with what you have, or what is possible where you live.

This topic makes me grateful for a local church in which the Eucharist is part of every service for which it is appropriate.

Other than that, I agree completely with what Curiosity killed said:

quote:
Space and silence, time to be in the presence of God and space to allow the still small voice. Liturgy that's framed to give that space and time. Unaccompanied chant and plainsong by candlelight. Or the rhythm and choreography of a full liturgical service that engages all the senses.

We have all of that that in a monthly Saturday evening Taize service always (including the Euchrist). I and several others in the congregation wish it were a weekly event.

quote:
Or the rhythm and choreography of a full liturgical service that engages all the senses.

This is hard to find outside of major cities or cathedral towns. On the whole, I will try to be happy to listen to our much more limited musical choices and be grateful for NOT having to listen to contemporary praise music.

As to sermons, I very much like this from South Coast Kevin.

quote:
For me, a great church meeting/ service shakes me out of my comfortableness and encourages me to believe I can live a more godly life.

..... hearing stories from people (in my local church, I mean) who might have done something courageous or remarkable would do it ...

I'm thinking of a model based on personal stories ("qualifications") by recovering alcoholics, which are the centerpiece of A.A. meetings. These are not sermons, nor are they "preaching." Yet somehow it works. This might be difficult, however, in a regular worship service or in front of a largish congregation.

Posted by Bostonman (# 17108) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Space and silence, time to be in the presence of God and space to allow the still small voice. Liturgy that's framed to give that space and time. Unaccompanied chant and plainsong by candlelight. Or the rhythm and choreography of a full liturgical service that engages all the senses.

I feel the same exact way. There are two sorts of worship experiences I've had that have been just wonderful:
1) The quiet, contemplative Compline we had last night with a group of four, held in an empty classroom with just a framed picture of a statue of Mary and a small rose bud. A bit of singing, a whole lot of silence, and the opportunity to share our prayers together at the end of a long day, in the middle of a long week.
2) One of the first times I took communion in an Episcopal church after my low-low-low Protestant childhood. A sense of real, strong, deep connection with God, really present in the elements. Something that's drawn me back week after week, even when I don't feel the same way. The memory of grace is more than enough.

Posted by cosmic dance (# 14025) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
I'm not sure a church service ever is the highlight of my week (and I'm an ordinand).

Are you sure you're in training to fulfil your true vocation or are you planning a lifetime of misery?

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

I'm actually not sure the 'form' matters that much, so long as it presents an opportunity to know the presence of God, to be connected to the transcendent, to be reminded God is there, or whatever other terrible and deeply inadequate cliche you care to use. Personally, I feel no Eucharist on a Sunday leaves me feeling bereft because it's such an all encompassing and very focused act that brings the ghost of God back into my thinking. I know my phraseology is riddled with difficulty, but it's often hard to put into words what it means to me. Maybe it's also dependent on our state of mind and our attitudes too. It's too easy to go to a service and be full of criticisms and home in on all the negatives, but even ion that situation I think it's still possible to find a resonance with the rhythm of private devotional prayer throughout the week.

[ 30. November 2012, 08:11: Message edited by: fletcher christian ]

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

quote:
Originally posted by cosmic dance:

quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
I'm not sure a church service ever is the highlight of my week (and I'm an ordinand).

Are you sure you're in training to fulfil your true vocation or are you planning a lifetime of misery?

When I'm in charge, obviously things will be different!

Posted by OhSimone (# 16414) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

So, what would have to be different for a church service, however defined, to actually be the highlight of *your* week?

Real evidence of a loving, local church community would make it for me, applicable to both congregation and those leading, in whatever way. I think there's plenty of benefit in most 'forms' of service, but if I didn't have to grit my teeth in case somebody says something awful, that would be lovely.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by cosmic dance:

quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
I'm not sure a church service ever is the highlight of my week (and I'm an ordinand).

Are you sure you're in training to fulfil your true vocation or are you planning a lifetime of misery?

Actually, I'm one of those who would like to see more leaders who find the whole thing difficult and struggle with it. Thinking everything's great how it is is half the problem.

Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :

I hear ya Karl. I hate the type of services where Jesus appears to be present in the form of a hyperactive kitten that gets overly excited at every bit of glitter on the floor.

Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras (# 11274) on :

For me, the Holy Eucharist, offered with both dignity and parsimony. Any iteration of catholic ceremonial that is not liturgically excessive (I realise there's a measure of subjectivity about this), nor deliberately antiquarian. Music to a high standard, but parsimonious mass settings that aren't overlayed with excessive polyphony and don't unduly disrupt the liturgical action. Preaching - if one must have a sermon - that is intellectually challenging yet spiritually meaningful.

I note that this description is high on subjectivity throughout. I don't think there's a one size fits all.

Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on :

As most will be aware, my proclivities for grandeur, beauty and ancient ritual, but despite this I am more than happy to worship with anyone who just wants to focus on God. It doesn't however have the same 'buzz' in the absence of the old grandeur though. I think this is something that I ought to work on rather than a problem with the worship, because even with worship that isn't quite what I'm in the mood for, it still can and should be the highlight of one's week.

Even if I did particularly enjoy the Sung Pontifical Mass that ending with us being blessed with the Arm of St. Bartholomew. That put a smile on my face all day!

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :

It would be nice if the resurrection had happened on a Tuesday evening (thereby fixing the main worship of the week at that time). Tuesdays are boring.

quote:
Originally posted by cosmic dance:
Are you sure you're in training to fulfil your true vocation or are you planning a lifetime of misery?

Better to plan one than to have one thrust upon you.

Posted by cosmic dance (# 14025) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:

quote:
Originally posted by cosmic dance:

quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
I'm not sure a church service ever is the highlight of my week (and I'm an ordinand).

Are you sure you're in training to fulfil your true vocation or are you planning a lifetime of misery?
When I'm in charge, obviously things will be different!

Different that is, apart from the vested interests, the 'gatekeepers', the culture and ethos of the particular church, the reactionaries, the choir, the obstructionists and the plain bloody minded.

Maybe I should tune up my irony-meter?

We all struggle with it Karl and not many of us think its wonderful all the time, but I feel that if Basilica is not being ironic, she/he may be a tad unrealistic here. Still, this is getting away from the OP a bit.

Posted by the giant cheeseburger (# 10942) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:

quote:
Originally posted by cosmic dance:

quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
I'm not sure a church service ever is the highlight of my week (and I'm an ordinand).

Are you sure you're in training to fulfil your true vocation or are you planning a lifetime of misery?
When I'm in charge, obviously things will be different!

[Original intended reply removed to prevent fulfilling Godwin's Law before finishing even a single page]

Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on :

quote:
Originally posted by cosmic dance:

quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:

quote:
Originally posted by cosmic dance:

quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
I'm not sure a church service ever is the highlight of my week (and I'm an ordinand).

Are you sure you're in training to fulfil your true vocation or are you planning a lifetime of misery?
When I'm in charge, obviously things will be different!
Different that is, apart from the vested interests, the 'gatekeepers', the culture and ethos of the particular church, the reactionaries, the choir, the obstructionists and the plain bloody minded.

Maybe I should tune up my irony-meter?

We all struggle with it Karl and not many of us think its wonderful all the time, but I feel that if Basilica is not being ironic, she/he may be a tad unrealistic here. Still, this is getting away from the OP a bit.

Don't worry, I'm being ironic.

That said, and going back to the OP, playing an active part in the service is actually important to me. I find an active liturgical role conducive to prayer; I get fidgety sitting in the congregation and can concentrate much more on worship if I have a rôle to play. (This is no small part of the reason I am an ordinand; it was how I first started thinking about a priestly vocation.)

Posted by Beeswax Altar (# 11644) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:

quote:
Originally posted by cosmic dance:

quote:
Originally posted by Basilica:
I'm not sure a church service ever is the highlight of my week (and I'm an ordinand).

Are you sure you're in training to fulfil your true vocation or are you planning a lifetime of misery?
When I'm in charge, obviously things will be different!

Good luck with that

Posted by Amazing Grace (# 95) on :

Well, sometimes the church service _is_ one of the high spots (if not "the") of my week.

We do it about the same way every Sunday so I figure I'm as much a factor as any in the variance.

I keep showing up because it's not about the sparkly Disney Chemicals or what I feel - showing up is part of my process of being in relationship with God.

I don't need to be at worship to hear the Spirit ...but it happens there on a regular basis, so I keep on truckin'.

I appreciate the disclaimer - so often people who are using words like "passionate" ass-u-me that people who aren't sticking their hands up in the air aren't, and get in a big ol' judgement trip about it. Expressions vary!

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :

Obviously I'm a centrality of the Eucharist sort of dude, and I like it pretty much by the book, without too much silly touchy feely addition. Good applied biblio-christo-centric preaching, some silence, and good music.

Music is the cutting edge. I don't care wether its cathedralesque organ and choir (the organ in my last parish plucked the chords of heaven) or a praise band (whatever that is) or a country music band ... whatever ... as long as it is prayed not performed. Does the music draw attention to the musician(s) as entertainers, or do they become a window through which I see the angels praising God? No music is better music than the former. If it is the latter and the context is (normally) eucharistic and the sermon meaningful .. I'll be there.

I prefer chazzies and lots of ceremony but can live without it: the liturgical players, like the musicians, simply need integrity.

I'll pass on liturgical dance, thanks.

Posted by Olaf (# 11804) on :

I would like an unashamed by-the-book liturgy, with none of the silly additions that have popped in with generic 20th century American Protestantism: the Children's Sermon, the stand-alone choir anthem, the announcements, the constant reminders of when to sit, stand, and what page to find.

Posted by cosmic dance (# 14025) on :

I require a sense of the numinous - how it is mediated is less important.

Posted by Mr. Rob (# 5823) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:

I would need modern praise music, a praise band, unconventional liturgies and intellectually challenging sermons.

Interesting, because the above, except for the sermons, are some of the very things that would keep me away from church.

*

Posted by PD (# 12436) on :

My preferences are conservative High Church Protestant. Sung service preferably Holy Communion, vestments and a certain amount of dignified ceremonial, but definitely no touchy-feely stuff.

My ideal church would also have extremely good music, to the point of being able to tackle Bach Cantatas. However, I do not mind less complicated music sung well. However, I would rather listen to Western Gallery music than second rate and deliberately "easy" twentieth century music. I am also very happy if a parish can tackle ordinary 'parish church music' with aplomb. Bad/too much modern music will tend to put me off a parish.

The icing on the cake for me would be thoughtful Bible-based preaching. If you cannot preach read Homilies...

PD

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Rob:

quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:

I would need modern praise music, a praise band, unconventional liturgies and intellectually challenging sermons.
Interesting, because the above, except for the sermons, are some of the very things that would keep me away from church.

*

This is actually rather my point. My own preference would be a half hour service, with music, most likely recorded and of a contemporary instrumental nature (but not always; depends what's appropriate) for reasons of lack of facilities, carefully chosen as a backdrop to the drama of the Eucharist much the way a movie director chooses background music to the onscreen action. I would have lots of moving video imagery, again, co-ordinated to the action. I might be persuaded to pull out the pews, but not to replace them with chairs - I'd prefer the sort of seating you find in the comfy corner at Costa.

Rather than a sermon in the traditional way I'd prefer a few pointers to discussion and questions to consider, based on the readings.

A lot of people would utterly hate it. That's fine.

My hypothesis is that not only is there no form that really works well for everyone, there is no form that works really well for some people and is OK enough for everyone else. There is no 'happy medium'. Our society is so diverse, so variable and has such a range of sub-cultural backgrounds that I do not believe the church can any longer offer a "one size fits all" approach.

It follows, and fits my experience, that nearly all churches are "niche" churches, and it may be as well to admit it as to maintain the ideal of one church for everyone regardless of age, background or subculture.

Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :

I would agree with this too, Karl, and think that the homogenisation of churches to a model that works is not helpful.

But ... there's another problem when you come to small parish churches, when there's not a lot of choice. What do you do then? Work with the non-conformist chapel so one does high and one does low? Work with a team of smaller churches and work out a mix of services across the team.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Surely, he said, positing an 'ideal' situation, the Sunday service or main 'church' part of our week shouldn't really be an isolated highlight (if highlight it should be) but an integral part of a weekly/daily cycle of devotions/prayer/worship ...

I can only speak for myself but I'm increasingly finding a 'disconnect' between my own lectionary-based and liturgical personal devotions (a mix of Orthodox trisagion prayers and other material and a form of Anglican 'daily office') and public worship which isn't following the same pattern - in terms of readings/calendar etc.

So I suppose for me the 'highlight' bit would be for these to coalesce and form a seamless whole and part of the overall rhythm of life.

Hmmmm ....

Now where does that leave me and lead me?

[Confused]

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I would agree with this too, Karl, and think that the homogenisation of churches to a model that works is not helpful.

But ... there's another problem when you come to small parish churches, when there's not a lot of choice. What do you do then? Work with the non-conformist chapel so one does high and one does low? Work with a team of smaller churches and work out a mix of services across the team.

Your problem here is that you're potentially asking people to lead worship in a way that is not authentic to them. I think you have to let these things grow naturally, accept that people will travel (they already do - how many churches does the average worshipper pass on their way to church on a Sunday morning, I wonder?) and use the wonders of modern technology to ensure people know what Christian expressions are in existence.

I'm being careful not to use terms like "on offer" and "available" - there is the Scylla of attempting artificial conformity on the one hand the Charybdis of consumerism on t'other.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Pots and kettles, Karl, your post read inveterately 'consumerist' to me ... what with the recorded modern music and comfy Costa style seats ...

If anyone is advocating consumerism around here it's you.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Pots and kettles, Karl, your post read inveterately 'consumerist' to me ... what with the recorded modern music and comfy Costa style seats ...

If anyone is advocating consumerism around here it's you.

The original question was what would make church the highlight of the week. And that's something I still can't quite get my head around. So I let myself indulge for a while in what is, inevitably, a purely consumerist manner. I'm unclear where I was accusing anyone else of consumerism; I merely raised it as something that exists as a danger, and one I know I can skate very close to.

But there are some important questions here. When does avoiding forms to which one cannot relate become consumerism? When does recognising that there are a lot of people to whom current church forms are alien become pandering to consumerism?

I'm not advocating that a church be set up for every whim and individual preference. But, after many years, I'm also forced to recognise that (a) existing forms are increasingly culturally alien, and (b) there is no one size that will fit all.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I would agree with this too, Karl, and think that the homogenisation of churches to a model that works is not helpful.

But ... there's another problem when you come to small parish churches, when there's not a lot of choice. What do you do then? Work with the non-conformist chapel so one does high and one does low? Work with a team of smaller churches and work out a mix of services across the team.
Your problem here is that you're potentially asking people to lead worship in a way that is not authentic to them. I think you have to let these things grow naturally, accept that people will travel (they already do - how many churches does the average worshipper pass on their way to church on a Sunday morning, I wonder?) and use the wonders of modern technology to ensure people know what Christian expressions are in existence.

I'm being careful not to use terms like "on offer" and "available" - there is the Scylla of attempting artificial conformity on the one hand the Charybdis of consumerism on t'other.

The irony is that a sociologist like Steve Bruce argues that English Christians have so many different types of church to choose from that they really have no cause to feel dissatisfied with church life if they genuinely want to participate. It seems as though he doesn't understand the half of it!

As for different denominations working together, that's fairly normal for many historical churches in my city, and would seem to be an obvious thing for a small village to do. On the other hand, while this is financially sensible, it cuts down on choice, and can create a 'lowest common denominator' form of worshipping experience that doesn't tend to be especially attractive.

Maybe one answer is for one church building to host a variety of services. This would cut down on costs, and provide for variety. I know of a Methodist church that has an occasional model of church called 'Parallel Alternative Worship' (PAWS). This involves having a traditional service, but also offering a range of other experiences at the same time. This is what the website says:

'On a PAWS Sunday, some join the normal congregation in the main church building for the first part of the service to emphasise our unity. Then, whilst the normal service continues, those taking part in PAWS leave after the second hymn (at the same time as our Junior Church, some of whom - and sometimes all - will be joining PAWS). Others taking part in PAWS prefer to wait in the alternative venue - another room in the church building - simply preparing for the PAWS worship, which they find more helpful. Certainly attendance at PAWS does not require any attendance at a traditional service.

'PAWS is becoming an important part of our community and our worship. It draws together new experiences for all ages. It enables those who find the traditional services unhelpful but wish to discover or explore the eternal questions to do so. It refreshes many who are also regular attenders of traditional services.'

I've never attended this church, which is quite a distance away, but it might provide a model for other churches to consider.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

I think the idea that most worshippers travel past two or three churches en route to their own is less than a half-truth. Even the most shrine-like churches (central London and similar places probably excepted) will have a nucleus of members from the geographical parish. By and large they will either have grown up in their church's tradition, or grit their teeth and put up with it, or in most cases no doubt just not be bothered by the sort of thing that upsets us Ecclesianticals.

I don't think it's just the Church of England that believes in the importance of serving the local community. Nor that has to live with compromise, which is what this whole thread is about really.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

I'd go along with that, Angloid. Out here in small town Cheshire I knew a few people who commute to church but not many ... those people who do go to church tend to stick with what's on offer in the immediate locality unless they have particular 'niche' requirements - as it were - or have been driven into the countryside by too much innovation...

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
So, what would have to be different for a church service, however defined, to actually be the highlight of *your* week?

I've been thinking about what my answer to this question would be while reading through the thread, and I have to be honest - I cannot think of any possible format for a service that would be both the highlight of my week and still recognisable as church.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Don't let that deter you Marvin. Don't worry about the "recognisably church" bit.

I doubt much that we do these days would be obviously church to the Apostles.

Posted by Barefoot Friar (# 13100) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I think the idea that most worshippers travel past two or three churches en route to their own is less than a half-truth.

In this part of the US, it is quite the opposite. Inevitable, as a matter of fact.

Posted by Bostonman (# 17108) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I think the idea that most worshippers travel past two or three churches en route to their own is less than a half-truth.
In this part of the US, it is quite the opposite. Inevitable, as a matter of fact.

In my hometown the main road is named (officially, not colloquially) "Church Street." On the way to the Baptist church, at the other end of the street, one would pass by the Christian Science, Episcopal, Methodist, Congregational, Unitarian, and Catholic (one of three in town) churches.

If these is "two or three churches of one's own denomination" I can see the situation being different, although I do have plenty of friends who cross city lines for different Catholic parishes, and most definitely for Pentecostal and evangelical churches.

Posted by Angloid (# 159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
In this part of the US, it is quite the opposite. Inevitable, as a matter of fact.
In my hometown the main road is named (officially, not colloquially) "Church Street." On the way to the Baptist church, at the other end of the street, one would pass by the Christian Science, Episcopal, Methodist, Congregational, Unitarian, and Catholic (one of three in town) churches.

The pond differences in this respect have sharpened. Not so long ago you'd have a similar range in most British towns and cities. Usually round here it's now down to the Catholics and Anglicans. En route to church (I confess to being in the minority of ecclesiastical commuters) I pass two Anglican, three Catholic, one Methodist (church building closed; meeting in a shop) and one free Pentecostal (and if I went a slightly different way round I'd pass a Buddhist centre as well. Synagogue not far away either)

[ 03. December 2012, 16:29: Message edited by: Angloid ]

Posted by Fr Weber (# 13472) on :

But shouldn't church be formative on Christians? And isn't the church (as an institution which comprises more than the living bodies in any given building on any given Sunday) right to demand conformity to its ways, as opposed to individual worshipers demanding that the church change itself so that they can find it more entertaining or interesting? Is there not a place for askesis in our practice any more?

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :

Speaking for myself, if there was one thing that would make going to church the highlight of the week, I would work myself up about whether that thing was happening or not. Even if it did happen I would, awkward bastard that I am, think of something else that was lacking.

For example, I love a good Mass with reflective silence, no rushing, incense and all that, but even if I did find such a place I'd then find myself wanting that the others would stop jabbering during the service, or that there were more people there, or more young people there, or more left-wing people there, or something else.

For years I tried to make going to church the highlight of my week. Now I try to enjoy the rest of the week. I rarely enjoy going to church or even praying, but I know that, like brushing my teeth, it isn't about enjoyment. Don't worry that, I'm not like Mrs Doyle in being into the misery; I do enjoy the occasional service, just that I don't place enjoyment very highly in my ranking.

God's with me all the time, like.

Actually I have more negative things that stop me from enjoying services. It's quite a long list. I find actually that attending an Orthodox church gets rid of many tensions I had while attending Anglican churches/Quaker Meetings, in that I am not looking for the perfect service. Of course, I like the way Orthodox services are done, but I don't have this "oh no, that hymn", "dodgy political sermon today" (the sermons are in Russian, which I don't understand).

I guess the thing that I find good, beyond all theological and ritualistic needs of mine, is silence. I've shared silence with URCs and Methodists (who are more unlike me than RCs and Orthodox) and I found that more positive.

Posted by The Weeder (# 11321) on :

It's all about the people. A diverse mix, or as diverse as is possible in the place in which I live.

The very Upper Class elderly couple who poured out support and friendship; the wife died last week, and we are all still in shock.

The elderly single man who befriends the needy,

The single mother bringing up 3 children on her own

The teens who come to the Evening service for the food and who, on the whole, have no idea what we are about- except that we feed them.

The number of multi- generational families, including 'children' who left for university and jobs, but have returned and settled down with us.

The diversity.

The warmth.

My 7 God children

I am struggling for all sorts of reasons, but this is what is holding me, while I work through my issues.

Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
But shouldn't church be formative on Christians? And isn't the church (as an institution which comprises more than the living bodies in any given building on any given Sunday) right to demand conformity to its ways, as opposed to individual worshipers demanding that the church change itself so that they can find it more entertaining or interesting? Is there not a place for askesis in our practice any more?

Yes and no to this, I'd say - there's certainly a place for askesis in this context, a surrendering of our preferences in favour of others'. But it's not simply about what we find 'entertaining or interesting'; I think that's being unfair. Rather, isn't it about what helps me (and us, the whole community of any given church) in my faith? What encourages me, gives me space to connect with God and strengthen my brethren in the faith? What inspires me afresh to pursue God through the whole course of my life?

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Thanks SCK - I was trying to think of a way of saying exactly what you've said very succinctly.

Posted by Ektenia (# 17453) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
I guess the thing that I find good, beyond all theological and ritualistic needs of mine, is silence. I've shared silence with URCs and Methodists (who are more unlike me than RCs and Orthodox) and I found that more positive.

Because of this valuing of silence I was about to ask if you'd ever attended a Quaker meeting, but then I reread your post and saw that you mentioned tensions you'd experienced at these. Can I ask what about Quaker worship rubbed you the wrong way?

My liturgical preferences are usually of the reverent high-church variety, but every time I've sat in prolonged and simple silence with the Quakers I've found it thoroughly worthwhile. I suppose it depends on the sort of people you're sharing the room with and the kind of spoken contributions they might make towards the end of the meeting.

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :

I'm actually a High Church Quaker who used to go to Meeting in the mornings and Evensong in the evenings.

I think I meant by tension was that caused by my own thoughts, or my inability to be still, or other ministries. Looking back, tension is not a bad thing when one works out the issue.

Posted by Graven Image (# 8755) on :

I have always wished we had "coffee hour," before the service or even brunch for that matter. A time to catch up on the week, hear the stories and form community before going into worship together, rather then sharing following the service.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Graven Image:
I have always wished we had "coffee hour," before the service or even brunch for that matter. A time to catch up on the week, hear the stories and form community before going into worship together, rather then sharing following the service.

Our FE setup has lunch after the Eucharist as an intrinsic part of the gathering. It helps.

Posted by leftfieldlover (# 13467) on :

No worship songs or hand-waving or incredibly long sermons or the Peace lasting for several minutes (leave chatting with old friends until coffee time after the service)or an overhead projector which keeps breaking down. What I would like (and I would have to drive to another town for this) is a selection of beautiful hymns with an excellent choir; a short, pithy sermon which you are thinking about days later, and hymn books... and finally, a Churchwarden who doesn't read through all the notices at the end of the service, when we all have copies of the sheet! He's a lovely man really.

Posted by Graven Image (# 8755) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Graven Image:
I have always wished we had "coffee hour," before the service or even brunch for that matter. A time to catch up on the week, hear the stories and form community before going into worship together, rather then sharing following the service.

Karl replied
Our FE setup has lunch after the Eucharist as an intrinsic part of the gathering. It helps.

We have gathering after service as well Karl, I just wish we could prepare for the service before by gathering hearing people expressing joys and concerns of their past week and then carry these into the worship. I think it would make the Peace more meaningful, save the shock of hearing that Susan died in the prayers of the people, get to know new people before worshiping with them for the first time and so on.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Theoretically our Eucharist starts at 12, but what actually happens is people arrive and we sort the lunch out ready before starting the service, so we get plenty of chance to share news beforehand.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

My church already is the highlight of my week - I really miss it when I have to not attend for whatever reason. We're a liberal Anglo-Catholic shack with full sung Eucharist every week (with a said Eucharist in the lady chapel every Saturday, Our Lady of Walsingham devotions on the third Saturday of the month). I do miss the gutsier singing and Wesleyan hymns of previous evangelical churches I've attended, but for me music isn't hugely important since I get worship songs from Christian Union/my own music library anyway. My priest in particular is wonderful and so friendly and welcoming [Axe murder]

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
My church already is the highlight of my week - I really miss it when I have to not attend for whatever reason. We're a liberal Anglo-Catholic shack with full sung Eucharist every week (with a said Eucharist in the lady chapel every Saturday, Our Lady of Walsingham devotions on the third Saturday of the month). I do miss the gutsier singing and Wesleyan hymns of previous evangelical churches I've attended, but for me music isn't hugely important since I get worship songs from Christian Union/my own music library anyway. My priest in particular is wonderful and so friendly and welcoming

Gosh. When I was in a CU I think you'd have risked attempts at exorcism if you'd been found to be going to a liberal AC church.

Posted by The Great Gumby (# 10989) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
My church already is the highlight of my week - I really miss it when I have to not attend for whatever reason. We're a liberal Anglo-Catholic shack with full sung Eucharist every week (with a said Eucharist in the lady chapel every Saturday, Our Lady of Walsingham devotions on the third Saturday of the month). I do miss the gutsier singing and Wesleyan hymns of previous evangelical churches I've attended, but for me music isn't hugely important since I get worship songs from Christian Union/my own music library anyway. My priest in particular is wonderful and so friendly and welcoming
Gosh. When I was in a CU I think you'd have risked attempts at exorcism if you'd been found to be going to a liberal AC church.

Ah, but what would be worse - the liberal bit, or the Catholic bit?

I'd be interested to know whether any of the people who've commented so far have a preference on the size of their perfect church. Plenty of people I know would prefer a church to be small enough to more or less know everyone and have a genuine sense of community, but a church of that size is naturally going to be seriously limited in terms of what it can offer, especially in musical terms.

Posted by churchgeek (# 5557) on :

The wording of the OP is unfortunate; it assumes things would have to be different than they are.

I find that some weeks, I'm not moved much, but other weeks, I am. And for me, it has much less to do with the style of worship, the exact liturgy, or even the particular tradition, and more to do with my openness to engaging with God and other people. Connections between persons (and Persons) are what moves me.

I was trying to keep this brief, but must edit to add: Sometimes I don't start out open, but something mysterious happens during the course of the service. I'm not sure that can be easily identified or categorized, and sometimes it's surprising. IOW, it's not necessarily anything that was planned by anyone who put the liturgy together. I think it's grace.

[ 07. December 2012, 09:38: Message edited by: churchgeek ]

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

The wording of the OP was deliberate. I'm aware that for some people the answer is "nothing", but I was particularly interested in those for whom it's not, like me.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
My church already is the highlight of my week - I really miss it when I have to not attend for whatever reason. We're a liberal Anglo-Catholic shack with full sung Eucharist every week (with a said Eucharist in the lady chapel every Saturday, Our Lady of Walsingham devotions on the third Saturday of the month). I do miss the gutsier singing and Wesleyan hymns of previous evangelical churches I've attended, but for me music isn't hugely important since I get worship songs from Christian Union/my own music library anyway. My priest in particular is wonderful and so friendly and welcoming
Gosh. When I was in a CU I think you'd have risked attempts at exorcism if you'd been found to be going to a liberal AC church.

The vice-president and her boyfriend both attend said liberal AC church with me! But it is viewed with some suspicion (never said outright though). Because we're a small university, there's no other Christian group on campus so we've set up our own and the vice-president is stepping down as soon as possible - we have far more problems with the CU than they do with us.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
My church already is the highlight of my week - I really miss it when I have to not attend for whatever reason. We're a liberal Anglo-Catholic shack with full sung Eucharist every week (with a said Eucharist in the lady chapel every Saturday, Our Lady of Walsingham devotions on the third Saturday of the month). I do miss the gutsier singing and Wesleyan hymns of previous evangelical churches I've attended, but for me music isn't hugely important since I get worship songs from Christian Union/my own music library anyway. My priest in particular is wonderful and so friendly and welcoming
Gosh. When I was in a CU I think you'd have risked attempts at exorcism if you'd been found to be going to a liberal AC church.
Ah, but what would be worse - the liberal bit, or the Catholic bit?

I'd be interested to know whether any of the people who've commented so far have a preference on the size of their perfect church. Plenty of people I know would prefer a church to be small enough to more or less know everyone and have a genuine sense of community, but a church of that size is naturally going to be seriously limited in terms of what it can offer, especially in musical terms.

I prefer a smaller church. When I'm at my parents' I attend a weekday lunchtime said Eucharist as my parents live in a semi-rural area and the buses are a nightmare on a Sunday. There's about 8-10 of us at the service each week including the vicar and curate, and it is a lovely snapshot of people from across all stages of life - me the student, professionals on their lunch break, retired people, grandparent with visiting grandchild. I find that the very small group makes the Peace much less awkward.

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