Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Just realised the tip was a whopping 18%!
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quote:An 18% service charge on groups of over a certain size (8 is standard) is very common in the US. The usual voluntary tip rate in the US is %15, higher in big cities. Wait staff get paid minimum wage or lower, so tips can make or break a week's wages. Of course none of this would be necessary if they were paid a living wage but advocating that makes me some sort of pinko commie these days.
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Just realised the tip was a whopping 18%!
quote:Precisely.
Originally posted by RuthW:
I tip 20%. It's part of the cost of the meal or drink, and if I can't afford that, I can't afford to go out.
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
quote:What RuthW said. I've got plenty of friends who put themselves through school waiting tables and tending bar- without tips, it would have been impossible given what wait staff (aren't) paid in the U.S.
Originally posted by RuthW:
I tip 20%. It's part of the cost of the meal or drink, and if I can't afford that, I can't afford to go out.
quote:And if you order pizza to be delivered to your home, the pizza delivery person has to pay his own car expenses. Keep that in mind when you're deciding how much to tip!
Originally posted by jbohn:
quote:What RuthW said. I've got plenty of friends who put themselves through school waiting tables and tending bar- without tips, it would have been impossible given what wait staff (aren't) paid in the U.S.
Originally posted by RuthW:
I tip 20%. It's part of the cost of the meal or drink, and if I can't afford that, I can't afford to go out.
quote:Its really not a choice. Restaurants that pay a fair wage? There are virtually none. It is for that very reason that tipping at a restaurant (and for certain other services) is part of the 'social contract' in the United States. It is optional only in very narrow circumstances (i.e., the wait staff completely ignores your party, you get no service, etc.). Otherwise, it is done as a matter of course and everyone I know would look down severely on a person who did not tip.
then you would find out what restaurants pay a fair wage and only use them. And you would find out what restaurants employ staff who are union members and only use them.
quote:The rest of the essay is pretty insightful as well.
Take, for example, how Christians tip and behave in restaurants. If you have ever worked in the restaurant industry you know the reputation of the Sunday morning lunch crowd. Millions of Christians go to lunch after church on Sundays and their behavior is abysmal. The single most damaging phenomenon to the witness of Christianity in America today is the collective behavior of the Sunday morning lunch crowd. Never has a more well-dressed, entitled, dismissive, haughty or cheap collection of Christians been seen on the face of the earth.
I exaggerate of course. But I hope you see my point. Rather than pouring our efforts into two hours of worship, bible study and Christian fellowship on Sunday why don't we just take a moment and a few extra bucks to act like a decent human being when we go to lunch afterwards? Just think about it. What if the entire restaurant industry actually began to look forward to working Sunday lunch? If they said amongst themselves, "I love the church crowd. They are kind, patient and very generous. It's my favorite part of the week waiting on Christians." How might such a change affect the way the world sees us? Think about it. Just being a decent human being for one hour each Sunday and the world sees us in a whole new way.
quote:What would John Chrysostom say?
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
Restaurants that pay a fair wage? There are virtually none.
quote:No-one HAS to eat out. Plenty of wealthy Europeans and Americans are happy to shout at companies in India or Africa for supposeldy using child labour. The moral issue is the same. If the restaurant business truly is is so corrupt, so, immoral, so ungodly, that not one of them pays a fair wage, then stop supporting them in their sin - which is one we are told cries out to God.
Originally posted by mousethief:
Then, ken, you would never eat out.
quote:I assume, then, that you're going to give up your computer, seeing the condition of the laborers who made it? Or do you have a bit of a double standard here?
Originally posted by ken:
No-one HAS to eat out. Plenty of wealthy Europeans and Americans are happy to shout at companies in India or Africa for supposeldy using child labour. The moral issue is the same.
quote:Read my post if you actually want to know something about the minimum wage for restaurant workers in the US.
Originally posted by ken:
And don't you have minmum wage laws over there? If the restaurants don't pay the minimum, why the hell not? And if they do, then who tips minimum wage employees who don't work facing the public?
quote:Okay, Shipmates, is this a legitimate member of the clergy to you, or a 'pastor?'
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
quote:Its really not a choice. Restaurants that pay a fair wage? There are virtually none. It is for that very reason that tipping at a restaurant (and for certain other services) is part of the 'social contract' in the United States. It is optional only in very narrow circumstances (i.e., the wait staff completely ignores your party, you get no service, etc.). Otherwise, it is done as a matter of course and everyone I know would look down severely on a person who did not tip.
then you would find out what restaurants pay a fair wage and only use them. And you would find out what restaurants employ staff who are union members and only use them.
No one is 'whinging at stupid Brits'; just clarifying a cultural difference.
quote:the business owners would say the prices of the products are lower in expectation of the tip. they're saving on wages and taxes and pass the savings on to you! I'm not sure I agree this is true.
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
While I sympathise with the situation of American waitstaff, I don't agree with rewarding someone just for doing their job, it should be for particularly great service - not automatic.
quote:I know it. And it tends to just make me doubly shocked rather than singly. You've basically got a bunch of slaves who have to rely on the kindness of their masters rather than actually being entitled to wages.
Originally posted by RuthW:
I have no idea if this thing is real or not, but many folks outside the US shocked at the automatic 18% gratuity for a large party probably don't know that lots of wait staff here are essentially working for tips.
quote:Bookmarked.
Originally posted by Josephine:
If you want to try eating out ethically, here's a guide to help you make your choices.
quote:What, precisely, do you mean?
Okay, Shipmates, is this a legitimate member of the clergy to you, or a 'pastor?'
quote:It's not "rewarding" them for doing their job. It's how they get paid. It's just a different mechanism than if you buy something at the supermarket and the checkout clerk is "rewarded" in her paycheck at the end of the month.
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
While I sympathise with the situation of American waitstaff, I don't agree with rewarding someone just for doing their job, it should be for particularly great service - not automatic.
quote:Interesting that everyone here assumed the pastor was a man. What a bunch of sexists we are.
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Two interesting developments.
The waitress who posted the picture of the check (not the same waitress who served the table) has been fired. The article helpfully includes the information that the national chain restaurant for which she formerly worked paid her the princely wage of US$3.50/hour.
The pastor in question has given an interview to The Smoking Gun.
quote:The food costs what the menu says it costs. It has fuck-all to do with paying the wait staff.
Not advertising prices properly.
quote:Only you would think it is magical. Everyone else knows that large parties have a gratuity added to the bill. If you live in a cave and don't know it, it generally says so on the menu. No one is surprised when the bill comes.
Automagically increasing costs to individuals because they happen to show up in group beyond a particular number.
quote:Go fly a kite, eh.
Just glad to see there were no guns involved.
quote:No, I live in a igloo like all Canadians. Just like you live in a trailer park with the other rotten tooth gorillas.
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
[QUOTE]
quote:'Everyone else knows' = everyone who grew up with the same social conventions. Not tourists. I point this out partly because Australians have a reputation as exceptionally bad tippers? You know why? Because no-one taught us growing up that it was necessary.
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
quote:The food costs what the menu says it costs. It has fuck-all to do with paying the wait staff.
Not advertising prices properly.
quote:Only you would think it is magical. Everyone else knows that large parties have a gratuity added to the bill. If you live in a cave and don't know it, it generally says so on the menu. No one is surprised when the bill comes.
Automagically increasing costs to individuals because they happen to show up in group beyond a particular number.
quote:Go fly a kite, eh.
Just glad to see there were no guns involved.
quote:perspective from a very international climbing town: Europeans, generally: 3rd worst. Australians: 2nd worst. Japanese: absolute worst.
Originally posted by orfeo:
I point this out partly because Australians have a reputation as exceptionally bad tippers? You know why? Because no-one taught us growing up that it was necessary.
quote:Agree. That's why staff in Australia are offended when ignorant loud US tourists offer them tips, they don't like being associated with sex workers.
Originally posted by orfeo:
'Everyone else knows' = everyone who grew up with the same social conventions. Not tourists. I point this out partly because Australians have a reputation as exceptionally bad tippers? You know why? Because no-one taught us growing up that it was necessary.
Also, food might cost what it says on the menu, but I certainly remember buying other things in the USA and being astounded that there was additional VAT to pay at the till. In this country, such a practice would be illegal.
quote:We already do. Most of your funny people are Canadian.
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
Hey, you're funny! You ought to write for television.
quote:You are the world, centre of everything, you five percenter. When people don't agree or understand you just talk louder. Typical schnipical weinerclops.
Yon the Fati
In any case, this really is about you being mystified by commonly-understood American social convention. While I doubt it takes much to mystify you, it really isn't my problem whether or not you understand it.
quote:No we just give them pickles. You freaking merrycans you want pickles with everything.
Join the Fatpig
Now tell me: has Canada taken to issuing passports yet, or do you still just show your mullet at the border crossing?
quote:Okay now that's just not true. We even had a commercial back in the 1970s for Burger King that started, "Hold the pickles, hold the lettuce." Would they have put that in a commercial if nobody ever wanted a burger without pickles? No, they would not have. It would have sounded too weird (like, "one hamburger, hold the meat").
Originally posted by no prophet:
You freaking merrycans you want pickles with everything.
quote:Usually, yes. But not in this case. In this case, you didn't understand it, and I explained it, and you still don't understand it.
When people don't agree or understand you just talk louder.
quote:'scuse us for trying to do the right thing.
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
Agree. That's why staff in Australia are offended when ignorant loud US tourists offer them tips, they don't like being associated with sex workers.
Keep your wacky practices to yourself. Do not want.
quote:BTW this is fucking rich. The aussies who come through here are loud, rude, ass-grabbers who like to get in fights at the drop of a hat and think they have a right to get drunk and be dicks and we're somehow obliged to serve them.
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
ignorant loud US tourists
quote:Seeing as American tourists spent AUS$1.8 billion in Australia in 2011, the "fuck you" attitude seems potentially self-harming.
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
Agree. That's why staff in Australia are offended when ignorant loud US tourists offer them tips, they don't like being associated with sex workers.
Keep your wacky practices to yourself. Do not want.
quote:Tell our Republican friends that for me, would you?
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
How about do the 'right thing' and legislate wages that people can live on?
quote:Well, that made ME laugh.
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:We already do. Most of your funny people are Canadian.
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
Hey, you're funny! You ought to write for television.
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quote:No, no... the getting massively drunk part sounds about right...
Originally posted by comet:
quote:BTW this is fucking rich. The aussies who come through here are loud, rude, ass-grabbers who like to get in fights at the drop of a hat and think they have a right to get drunk and be dicks and we're somehow obliged to serve them.
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
ignorant loud US tourists
but you know what? I'm going to be the better man and assume these assholes don't represent an entire nation.
quote:Was that about when Oprah visited?
Originally posted by mousethief:
Seeing as American tourists spent AUS$1.8 billion in Australia in 2011, the "fuck you" attitude seems potentially self-harming.
quote:Sounds fair. I'll meet that and work on the basis it's possible not all Americans are uncouth fat jerks.
Originally posted by comet:
but you know what? I'm going to be the better man and assume these assholes don't represent an entire nation.
quote:Was that in 2011? My numbers were for 2011.
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:Was that about when Oprah visited?
Originally posted by mousethief:
Seeing as American tourists spent AUS$1.8 billion in Australia in 2011, the "fuck you" attitude seems potentially self-harming.
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quote:Now I'm putting you on speed dial or whatever the ship allows. This is about the most lovingest thing anymouse has ever said to me. (and yes, I am wearing a toque in the house, always do, how'd you know, and I am not making this up. Must be love, I'm just giddy.)
Originally posted by mousethief:
Love your toque, by the way.
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quote:The reason the Aussies don't like the loud Myrrhcan tourists is precisely because many of our own are of the same stereotype.
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:No, no... the getting massively drunk part sounds about right...
Originally posted by comet:
quote:BTW this is fucking rich. The aussies who come through here are loud, rude, ass-grabbers who like to get in fights at the drop of a hat and think they have a right to get drunk and be dicks and we're somehow obliged to serve them.
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
ignorant loud US tourists
but you know what? I'm going to be the better man and assume these assholes don't represent an entire nation.
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quote:at least in the Yukon the tipping tradition is the same as here. I have no idea what the servers make, though. figured it was rude to ask.
Originally posted by PeteC:
I see no prophet takes Mercans to task for paying low wages to waitstaff. Like Canadians don't as well?
quote:You mean Americans do their odious tipping in restaurants by tucking bills in Aussie wait staff g-strings?
That's why staff in Australia are offended when ignorant loud US tourists offer them tips, they don't like being associated with sex workers.
quote:I thought slavery had been abolished in the USA or are my textbooks incorrect?
Originally posted by orfeo:
[QUOTE]You've basically got a bunch of slaves who have to rely on the kindness of their masters rather than actually being entitled to wages.
quote:Pretty much true for England too. The expectation is that you you are paid for what you do and very few people in other jobs get tips so why should a restaurant be any different?
Originally posted by Emendator Liturgia:
Comment has been made about Australian being notoreously bad tippers - rightly so, because we pretty well all grew up with the understanbding that tipping was ONLY to give thanks for exceptional service.
quote:Yeah, but we're clapped out pinko dolphin shaggin' commie poofters. We don't even carry guns into a restaurant, and have no plans or fallback second amendments (because we the fuck got it right in the first place) to overthrow governments with assault weapons. We hold elections which is just so lefty-democratic (like George Dubya, who imposed that kind of nasty nonsense on Iraq, though even that was because he couldn't spell Iran) , and we pay staff, which is so communist, and .. what can I say ... our Prime Minster is a Sinner™ I tell you ...
Originally posted by orfeo:
'Everyone else knows' = everyone who grew up with the same social conventions. Not tourists. I point this out partly because Australians have a reputation as exceptionally bad tippers? You know why? Because no-one taught us growing up that it was necessary.
Also, food might cost what it says on the menu, but I certainly remember buying other things in the USA and being astounded that there was additional VAT to pay at the till. In this country, such a practice would be illegal.
quote:To do that sort of comparative analysis you would need to incorporate other factors as well: such as the amount of government tax that is imposed (VAT in the UK is 20%; the same sort of tax here in Aus. is only 10%; I don't know what federal/state taxes are levided in the US. Also, one would have to take into consideration the 'compulsary' service levies mentioned in the OP and elsewhere, as aginast the 'tipping' and at what level.
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Having established the different tipping conventions in the United States / Canada and the rest of the Anglosphere, have any studies been done to compare the cost of dining out? Does a meal for two at a modest restaurant (with generous tips) in the United States work out at roughly equal to a similar meal (with a 10% tip) in the United Kingdom?
quote:$10/hour is not good, but it's better than what they're quoting. That's the minimum wage, give or take some ¢. This said, the economy is growing, it's on fire with the oil boom here and there is difficulty retaining employees, such that Tim Hortons is paying $15/hour to start.
Originally posted by PeteC:
I see no prophet takes Mercans to task for paying low wages to waitstaff. Like Canadians don't as well?
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quote:I don't have any research to corroborate this, but since it's Hell and I don't have to, I'll opine that the Church is so micro-fractioned any more, that where two or three are gathered in the Lord's name, it's not long before one is dubbed 'pastor,' usually by themself. One can be a self-styled 'Bishop,' 'Deacon,' or 'Priestess,' for that matter just by claiming so. Clerical titles (and beyond) got hijacked a l-o-n-g time ago, at least here in the "tippy" USA, and while it's not out of my belief system to acknowledge that God still speaks to and through some of us, this woman makes me skeptical.
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
quote:What, precisely, do you mean?
Okay, Shipmates, is this a legitimate member of the clergy to you, or a 'pastor?'
quote:And there was me thinking that the fees for the occassional offices were the in-lieu of tips thing for clergy.
Originally posted by no prophet:
This tipping crap has me thinking. With the declining number of parishioners and financial squeeze I hear many places, probably we should tip priests and ministers. Poor sods with no money. Y'know, slip them a little something for a good sermon and maybe even a little extra if we felt moved by the spirit. It'd be pretty easy, just a little jar by the door or into the hand while shaking on the way out. If you have a large family, the greeters and ushers will just give you a Holy Tip Total or Godly Gratuity and won't let you leave until you pay out.
If your church uses those weekly envelopes, it'd be easy to add a tip amount line. Part of stewardship would be to target the low tippers and tell them how rude they are.
Problem solved! The clergy would have no further excuse for not tipping waiters.
quote:You would continue to get that plus a tip. If you really did it well, you might get, say 22%. If not so well, maybe get stiffed. If average, I'll leave you 10%.
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
And there was me thinking that the fees for the occassional offices were the in-lieu of tips thing for clergy.
quote:Absolutely incorrect. We just hide it under the rug a lot better.
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:I thought slavery had been abolished in the USA or are my textbooks incorrect?
Originally posted by orfeo:
[QUOTE]You've basically got a bunch of slaves who have to rely on the kindness of their masters rather than actually being entitled to wages.
quote:I came home to my trailer park from the bi-weekly local gun show this morning with several bags of Burger King for the missus, and logged on to find that you are still twatting off about this whole tipping/gratuity thing. It must bother you terribly that social convention differs in other countries. The thought that someone else does something differently than you must really get your toque in a bunch.
If you have a large family, the greeters and ushers will just give you a Holy Tip Total or Godly Gratuity and won't let you leave until you pay out.
quote:Not half as much as it seems to bother you...
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
It must bother you terribly that social convention differs in other countries.
quote:He probably shouldn't, but I imagine they would expect... no, sorry... demand a share.
Originally posted by no prophet:
Lots of great possibilities. In your local deanery meetings, you can debate whether the bishop gets a cut of the tip pool.
quote:I understand this might be asking a bit too much, but a tiny bit of reasoning and logic reveals why.
Originally posted by no prophet:
Automagically increasing costs to individuals because they happen to show up in group beyond a particular number.
quote:And this is different from how all "established" churches began how?
Originally posted by The Riv:
I'll opine that the Church is so micro-fractioned any more, that where two or three are gathered in the Lord's name, it's not long before one is dubbed 'pastor,' usually by themself. One can be a self-styled 'Bishop,' 'Deacon,' or 'Priestess,' for that matter just by claiming so.
quote:That's what it is! I knew there was something about them, but couldn't quite puzzle it out.
Originally posted by no prophet:
So, I'll admit to engaging in assholery in some of my posts.
quote:I'm expected to declare all my tips for taxation. in reality I declare about 15% of over all sales, where my average tip income is closer to 20%.
Originally posted by Meg the Red:
And I believe that tips are required to be declared for taxation, though I'm sure there's some "slippage".
quote:Understood. Like I said previously, "tipping crap". Direct physical effort might be more efficient though than "puzzling it out".
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:That's what it is! I knew there was something about them, but couldn't quite puzzle it out.
Originally posted by no prophet:
So, I'll admit to engaging in assholery in some of my posts.
quote:Most places the servers have to share tips with the other staff.
Originally posted by Spike:
Why do waiters get tips but not the chef? After all, he's the one who's actually done the work. All the waiters do is carry it to the table.
quote:Chefs don't get tips because they usually get a living wage--sometimes (if they are really good) a quite fantastic salary. They also (usually) have benefits.
Originally posted by Spike:
Why do waiters get tips but not the chef? After all, he's the one who's actually done the work. All the waiters do is carry it to the table.
quote:I've never been waitstaff. However, merely from observation, I know this is bollocks.
Originally posted by Spike:
All the waiters do is carry it to the table.
quote:Not true. Sometimes they sneeze on it, too.
Originally posted by Spike:
All the waiters do is carry it to the table.
quote:What fees for occasional offices? In the C of E they go straight to the diocese.
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
And there was me thinking that the fees for the occassional offices were the in-lieu of tips thing for clergy.
quote:Yes, I was 'impressed' by that as well.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
In regards to the Pastor, she claims her comment was a lapse in judgement. So what is her method of repentance? To complain to the establishment and cause further trouble. Bitch.
quote:About every second sentence of this post made me think the system is even more fucked up than I realised. Paying tax on income you didn't get because it's easier than telling the truth and going through the hoops? That is just nuts. Not you individually, the fact that the situation arises.
Originally posted by comet:
quote:I'm expected to declare all my tips for taxation. in reality I declare about 15% of over all sales, where my average tip income is closer to 20%.
Originally posted by Meg the Red:
And I believe that tips are required to be declared for taxation, though I'm sure there's some "slippage".
and then there's days like yesterday where I work an 8 hour shift and walk home with ten bucks. some days, it sucks. you just never know. but if I claim less than my 15%, I'm setting myself up for an IRS audit, where I'll be forced to prove the unprovable and then be asked to pay taxes on an "average" tip rate. even if people chose not to tip, I have to claim a tip. so there are times I'm paying taxes on money that doesn't exist. as far as I'm concerned, it makes up for my under-declarations at other times.
yesterday, I claimed $45 in tips for tax purposes, though I only made $10. it's a tough time of year, people here are broke. I cut them a lot of slack.
so if you're considering not tipping as making a statement of how you disapprove of our system, remember who you're harming. and think carefully about who is hearing your statement. the government will not hear and does not care.
and yes, when the right cause comes up, and/or when we're asked, staff will have times where all tips are given to a charity in need. this is voluntary and we're happy to do it.
I will still have to declare those tips and pay the tax, and I don't get credit for the donation because the money never went through my hand.
FYI here, tips are taxed at the exact same rate as wage income.
quote:It's exactly the reverse of the situation that large corporations and the super-rich are in, namely not paying tax on income they do get, because the taxman makes it easy.
Originally posted by orfeo:
<in reply to comet> Paying tax on income you didn't get because it's easier than telling the truth and going through the hoops? That is just nuts. Not you individually, the fact that the situation arises.
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
quote:Chefs don't get tips because they usually get a living wage--sometimes (if they are really good) a quite fantastic salary. They also (usually) have benefits.
Originally posted by Spike:
Why do waiters get tips but not the chef? After all, he's the one who's actually done the work. All the waiters do is carry it to the table.
Of course, some of them own the restaurants in which they work as well. Lest one get the idea that waiting tables is a sentence to long term poverty, I'll point out that in some of the finer dining establishments it is quite possible for a waiter to make enough to pay for their own benefits and still have more left over than a teacher with a graduate degree would have. That requires a large city though--that's not the way it's going to be in a small town. It's also not the way it's going to be at the bottom of the "food chain"--which is what Applebee's is.
The thing is, almost everyone in the US has either worked in food service or had a close friend who worked in food service at some time in their life (quite often in college). There was a time I was grateful to have the job. If you're not in a large rich city, though, it's a crap way to have to make a living. That's one reason why it is often a "moonlight" job.
quote:Especially over the food of those who think all they do is carry it to the table
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:Not true. Sometimes they sneeze on it, too.
Originally posted by Spike:
All the waiters do is carry it to the table.
.
quote:After a little look, so they do!
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:What fees for occasional offices? In the C of E they go straight to the diocese.
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
And there was me thinking that the fees for the occassional offices were the in-lieu of tips thing for clergy.
quote:Surely not ..
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:Especially over the food of those who think all they do is carry it to the table
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:Not true. Sometimes they sneeze on it, too.
Originally posted by Spike:
All the waiters do is carry it to the table.
quote:Are you suggesting pastors might use some kind of cheap rhetoric? Plenty of 'em major in it and I don't want to get driven into the 10% debate, because that belongs on the cheap burger board (IMHO).
Originally posted by orfeo:
On reflection, I've realised that one of the most distasteful things about the pastor's written remark is treating giving God money as equivalent.
You give God 10 per cent? How, exactly? By depositing it in His bank account?
And it's also false equivalence to say 10% without identifying 10% of what. If it's 10% of your income, then it's okay, honey, "God" is still coming out ahead of the waitress who gets 18% of the cost of one meal out. Unless your income is really small.
So yeah, not only was the remark nasty, it's only purpose was to set up a false comparison to suggest that getting more than God was wrong. And you know, actually getting more than God might well be wrong, or at least questionable, but that wasn't in fact what was being asked for. Which only makes our Pastor look worse for employing a cheap rhetorical flourish.
quote:This is true. In many African American churches, the term "pastor" denotes seniority and respect.
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re signing "pastor" instead of a proper title:
Actually, in some Christian circles, that is a proper title.
The pastor, if officially ordained, might technically be a reverend. But some people balk at the title, saying only God is to be revered. Plus "Pastor" sounds more personable. You can use it the same way someone might address a priest as "Father".
quote:Exactly. How about, "I'm so sorry for my behavior. I wrote that impulsively because I do disagree with automatic gratuities, but I shouldn't have responded in that way." And then contacting the owner privately, acknowledging what she said is wrong, but expressing her displeasure with it having been made public - not getting up a lawsuit blaming Applebee's for ruining her ministry - she did that on her own!
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:Yes, I was 'impressed' by that as well.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
In regards to the Pastor, she claims her comment was a lapse in judgement. So what is her method of repentance? To complain to the establishment and cause further trouble. Bitch.
quote:DBF and PCC it is! As the 2013 fees list shows, fees are now divided between the portion for the Diocesan Board of Finance and the portion retained by the PCC. A new system this year, and judging by a discussion at clergy chapter this week, there are still some gremlins to deal with - but no 'incumbent's fees' or equivalent. Which is as it should be, I think.
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
quote:After a little look, so they do!
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:What fees for occasional offices? In the C of E they go straight to the diocese.
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
And there was me thinking that the fees for the occassional offices were the in-lieu of tips thing for clergy.
It was one of the suggestions in the Harries Report in the CinW that the Occassional Office fees be paid to the PCC instead of the Incumbent but that has been widely resisted so I don't know at the minute. Have to wait and see whether the working group on all of this is going to go forwards with the proposals from the report...
quote:I read Facebook. Apparently you don't.
Originally posted by Porridge:
Even better would be a petition to get the poor staffer her job back.
quote:And failing spectacularly.
Originally posted by PeteC:
The restaurant chain in question has been scrambling to cover its ass in a fairly large shitstorm of negative opinion.
quote:Penny from "Big Bang Theory", is that you?
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:Especially over the food of those who think all they do is carry it to the table
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:Not true. Sometimes they sneeze on it, too.
Originally posted by Spike:
All the waiters do is carry it to the table.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
quote:"One strike and you're out," then? No warning, no reprimand, just fire on the spot? Saying that it was right to reprimand her, or that what she did was wrong, does NOT mean it was right to fire her. (not arguing with you personally, GK)
Originally posted by Golden Key:
He said that it was right to fire her, since she included identifiable info (the signature) from the receipt; without that, he said he wouldn't have fired her.
quote:In Applebee's case, they themselves posted a receipt with a name prior to the waitress having done so. Of course, that one contained a positive note.
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re firing the waitress:
There was a discussion on NPR today. (Don't remember which show.) One caller works in Human Resources, in a different industry.
He said that it was right to fire her, since she included identifiable info (the signature) from the receipt; without that, he said he wouldn't have fired her.
quote:Oh WOW. A fascinating read.
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:And failing spectacularly.
Originally posted by PeteC:
The restaurant chain in question has been scrambling to cover its ass in a fairly large shitstorm of negative opinion.
quote:Yep. Nothing will kill you faster in this situation than proof of your inconsistency. You can get away with a nasty, mean decision if people can see it fits within the rules. But when you're making a nasty, mean and inconsistent decision, people just aren't going to buy it.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:In Applebee's case, they themselves posted a receipt with a name prior to the waitress having done so. Of course, that one contained a positive note.
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re firing the waitress:
There was a discussion on NPR today. (Don't remember which show.) One caller works in Human Resources, in a different industry.
He said that it was right to fire her, since she included identifiable info (the signature) from the receipt; without that, he said he wouldn't have fired her.
quote:Completely insane. To take off on something Mamacita said on Facebook, it's like watching a bunch of thirteen year old girls engage in status update wars.
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:Oh WOW. A fascinating read.
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:And failing spectacularly.
Originally posted by PeteC:
The restaurant chain in question has been scrambling to cover its ass in a fairly large shitstorm of negative opinion.
I think the most bizarre bit of that is telling people again and again that the person who was fired wasn't the person who served the table. When a heck of a lot of people already know that. Thinking that this would somehow change people's opinion about the incident is just a little loopy.
quote:It's one thing for head office to post a nice happy feedback note (quite possibly with permission even) and a completely different thing for a waitress to post one on her own initiative for the purpose of embarrassing a customer.
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:Yep. Nothing will kill you faster in this situation than proof of your inconsistency. You can get away with a nasty, mean decision if people can see it fits within the rules. But when you're making a nasty, mean and inconsistent decision, people just aren't going to buy it.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:In Applebee's case, they themselves posted a receipt with a name prior to the waitress having done so. Of course, that one contained a positive note.
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re firing the waitress:
There was a discussion on NPR today. (Don't remember which show.) One caller works in Human Resources, in a different industry.
He said that it was right to fire her, since she included identifiable info (the signature) from the receipt; without that, he said he wouldn't have fired her.
quote:Indeed. I get tired of being over a barrel to pay the restaurant owner's employees for him. We do pay at least 15% but it's always seemed archaic to me.
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
How about do the 'right thing' and legislate wages that people can live on?
quote:Intent is irrelevant, only permission would be a factor.
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
t's one thing for head office to post a nice happy feedback note (quite possibly with permission even) and a completely different thing for a waitress to post one on her own initiative for the purpose of embarrassing a customer.
quote:Yeah, I shall hazard a guess and say the instead part will gain no good will.
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I must remember that Add Reply does not equal a paragraph break. A few waiting friends have told me of the practice of leaving small cards with a text of scripture instead of a tip. I do not know if this practice has increased reverence for the Bible among the waiting classes, or if there have been many spontaneous conversions on this account.
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I tip 20%. It's part of the cost of the meal or drink, and if I can't afford that, I can't afford to go out.
quote:My last job (1999) was part time, lunch relief, teller in a Georgia bank. I made five dollars per hour. I had to have at least five nice business suits or dresses to start the job. My first week there the boss told us that we were to have "casual Fridays," when we would wear Atlanta Braves shirts and jeans. It cost me my first week's pay.
Originally posted by Josephine:And if you order pizza to be delivered to your home, the pizza delivery person has to pay his own car expenses. Keep that in mind when you're deciding how much to tip!
quote:Do that first, then complain about tipping.
Originally posted by Twilight:
If our country worked harder toward equality-- things like minimum wage and free health care and reasonable university costs for everyone
quote:If the reason given for sacking her was that she violated customer privacy, then no, it's not two different things. It's the same thing. They violated a customer's privacy. They don't then get to turn around and use that as a reason to come down heavy on someone else without being decried as hypocritical and heartless. It just don't work.
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
It's one thing for head office to post a nice happy feedback note (quite possibly with permission even) and a completely different thing for a waitress to post one on her own initiative for the purpose of embarrassing a customer.
quote:That's the way I see it but there will always be people who have a knee jerk response to those who have been stereotyped as "poor," and will bend over backward to help them while ignoring others who are equally hard up but don't fit the image. Is that impulse kindly meant? Yes, but like you, I don't think it's ultimately very helpful.
Originally posted by deano:
Is it not the case that people in the US who do tip are actually propping up an unjust system, where some people are treated unequally because of the job they do by both the Government and by employers.
quote:An awful lot of people would be cast out of their homes and onto the street, and an awful lot of restaurants would close. This would have a ripple effect on the economy which would not be salutary, and would contribute to potential recession, which would put more people out of work.
Originally posted by deano:
What would be the result if people stopped tipping. I mean everywhere. No tipping in any restaurant or bar. A national campaign organised by some of the big unions with Hollywood endorsee's and so on.
quote:It wouldn't lead to an increase in meal prices to compensate and better wages provided for by those higher prices for the waiting staff then?
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:An awful lot of people would be cast out of their homes and onto the street, and an awful lot of restaurants would close. This would have a ripple effect on the economy which would not be salutary, and would contribute to potential recession, which would put more people out of work.
Originally posted by deano:
What would be the result if people stopped tipping. I mean everywhere. No tipping in any restaurant or bar. A national campaign organised by some of the big unions with Hollywood endorsee's and so on.
It's a simplistic, short-sighted, unworkable, and very very very cruel idea.
quote:You are absolutely ADORABLE that you think they give a shit about anything but the almighty dollar in their pocket.
Originally posted by deano:
It wouldn't lead to an increase in meal prices to compensate and better wages provided for by those higher prices for the waiting staff then?
quote:It's the paying below minimum wage which has me baffled. The employees of similar eateries here get $10/hour, with an online seach suggesting Applebee employees get less than $4.50. Not sure how "less than minimum" ever developed. Very odd.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
... Americans with jobs paying minimum wage or below.)
quote:We'll have to leave explaining that to Americans, won't we?
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:It's the paying below minimum wage which has me baffled. The employees of similar eateries here get $10/hour, with an online seach suggesting Applebee employees get less than $4.50. Not sure how "less than minimum" ever developed. Very odd.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
... Americans with jobs paying minimum wage or below.)
quote:Which is exactly why all employees, everywhere, in whatever business or trade or industry, should be in a union. And be prepared to strike in soilidarity with other workers. And if the local laws where you make that illegal, be prepared to break the unjust anti-union laws. If we were all in it together they could not possibly beat us.
Originally posted by Spiffy:
quote:You are absolutely ADORABLE that you think they give a shit about anything but the almighty dollar in their pocket.
Originally posted by deano:
It wouldn't lead to an increase in meal prices to compensate and better wages provided for by those higher prices for the waiting staff then?
quote:Ken you are just the best!!
Originally posted by ken:
quote:Which is exactly why all employees, everywhere, in whatever business or trade or industry, should be in a union. And be prepared to strike in soilidarity with other workers. And if the local laws where you make that illegal, be prepared to break the unjust anti-union laws. If we were all in it together they could not possibly beat us.
Originally posted by Spiffy:
quote:You are absolutely ADORABLE that you think they give a shit about anything but the almighty dollar in their pocket.
Originally posted by deano:
It wouldn't lead to an increase in meal prices to compensate and better wages provided for by those higher prices for the waiting staff then?
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
quote:And here you go. (The Google is an American, yes?)
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:We'll have to leave explaining that to Americans, won't we?
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:It's the paying below minimum wage which has me baffled. The employees of similar eateries here get $10/hour, with an online seach suggesting Applebee employees get less than $4.50. Not sure how "less than minimum" ever developed. Very odd.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
... Americans with jobs paying minimum wage or below.)
quote:Agree.
Originally posted by ken:
Which is exactly why all employees, everywhere, in whatever business or trade or industry, should be in a union. And be prepared to strike in solidarity with other workers. And if the local laws where you make that illegal, be prepared to break the unjust anti-union laws.
quote:Which is why the powers that be will do everything they can to prevent that from happening.
If we were all in it together they could not possibly beat us.
quote:sounds great!
Originally posted by ken:
quote:Which is exactly why all employees, everywhere, in whatever business or trade or industry, should be in a union. And be prepared to strike in soilidarity with other workers. And if the local laws where you make that illegal, be prepared to break the unjust anti-union laws. If we were all in it together they could not possibly beat us.
Originally posted by Spiffy:
quote:You are absolutely ADORABLE that you think they give a shit about anything but the almighty dollar in their pocket.
Originally posted by deano:
It wouldn't lead to an increase in meal prices to compensate and better wages provided for by those higher prices for the waiting staff then?
quote:'Quite possibly' with permission. Aye there's the rub. Because the correct response, if they had customer permission, would be to point that out. Again, that would give them a basis for showing that there was a consistent policy applied.
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
It's one thing for head office to post a nice happy feedback note (quite possibly with permission even) and a completely different thing for a waitress to post one on her own initiative for the purpose of embarrassing a customer.
quote:I expect that was stated for public consumption. To state the truth, ie, "We never release personal identification" unless a) or b) or c) or ..... r), s) or t) wouldn't convince anyone, least of all Facebookers, but that's closer to the truth.
Originally posted by orfeo:
In short, Lesson Number One is do not say "We never do X" if the correct situation is "We do X according to the following procedures". Because someone is going to call you on it, and then explaining the procedures, however reasonable they might be, becomes far harder.
Whoever wrote that first, "we never release personal information" response seriously fucked up.
quote:Oh Ken, you've let me down. Comet would be a scab, a blackleg surely!
Originally posted by ken:
Of course.
quote:I'm getting pissed off reminding people to read the rest of the fucking thread.
Originally posted by k-mann:
Although this pastor seems to be total prick, I must say that a 18 percent tip seems a bit high.
quote:It's not a caracture though. Ask a Nottinghamshire miner what they were called by their Yorkshire colleagues when they wanted to work during the strike, in order to put food in their childrens bellies.
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Read all about it! Lefty fails to live down to rightwinger's unflattering caricature!
In other news, Pope - does he lean towards the church of Rome? Bears and woodlands - could there be a scatalogical connection?
quote:All the education in the world doesn't stop people from being pricks.
Originally posted by The Riv:
Perhaps the best unionization effort re: this issue would be if the so-called 'pastor' in question joined the International Clergy Assn. Maybe then she could at least afford to offer a reasonable gratuity, if not gain a theological and pastoral education.
quote:Non sequitur. Go back 5 spaces.
Originally posted by deano:
Oh, sorry. I forgot. You can't call your lefty friends scabs when they cross picket lines. Mea Culpa.
quote:I thought perhaps by mentioning your mining example was far from a simple matter of strike v. not strike and then offering a flat, non-nuanced barb in your direction, it might cause you to think. To perhaps, reevaluate your view re this discussion.
Originally posted by deano:
Oh, sorry. I forgot. You can't call your lefty friends scabs when they cross picket lines. Mea Culpa.
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
quote:Ask the family of David Wilkie about the nuance of people who cross picket lines, and the shades of grey.
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:I thought perhaps by mentioning your mining example was far from a simple matter of strike v. not strike and then offering a flat, non-nuanced barb in your direction, it might cause you to think. To perhaps, reevaluate your view re this discussion.
Originally posted by deano:
Oh, sorry. I forgot. You can't call your lefty friends scabs when they cross picket lines. Mea Culpa.
Instead, I owe you an apology.
An apology for giving you far too much credit. While I believe it serves to set the bar high whilst instructing, it is unfair to place it out of any possible reach.
My mistake.
quote:Interesting thought. As has been pointed out, it would cause quite a bit of suffering on the parts of the people you say you are trying to help in the short run. Whether or not it would work in the ling run is an issue that may never be resolved by evidence.
Originally posted by deano:
Is it not the case that people in the US who do tip are actually propping up an unjust system, where some people are treated unequally because of the job they do by both the Government and by employers.
What would be the result if people stopped tipping. I mean everywhere. No tipping in any restaurant or bar. A national campaign organised by some of the big unions with Hollywood endorsee's and so on.
Yes I will be the first to admit that the immediate effect would be very hard on the waiting staff, but beyond that wouldn't it result in something better and more just?
quote:Further, when restaurants add an automatic tip for large parties (as was the case here) the policy is generally printed in the menu. In small print, to be sure, but there is some notice usually, for what is a common practice this side of the pond.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:I'm getting pissed off reminding people to read the rest of the fucking thread.
Originally posted by k-mann:
Although this pastor seems to be total prick, I must say that a 18 percent tip seems a bit high.
This incident happened in the USA. Tipping is in the range of 15-20%, so 18% is normal and tipping at that rate is no more unusual than knife, fork, plate and table.
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
quote:You are absolutely ADORABLE that you think they give a shit about anything but the almighty dollar in their pocket.
Originally posted by deano:
It wouldn't lead to an increase in meal prices to compensate and better wages provided for by those higher prices for the waiting staff then?
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
quote:Every now and then, some bright spark decides to poll waiters and ask whether they would prefer a system of decent wages and no tips. The vast majority always prefers to stick with tips - they know they're doing much better off tips than they would on a wage alone. Yes - even waiters at places like Applebees.
Originally posted by Tortuf:
The problem only starts with minimum wage applying to wait staff. It might resolve problems at places like Applebees where I imagine most tips are not substantial.
quote:You're pretty adorable yourself if you don't see how much restaurant owners rub their hands in glee over the fact that they've figured out how to get customers like you to buy their product and pay their staff. Many a bank owner has probably cried himself to sleep because he can't get his customers to pay his tellers for them.
Originally posted by Spiffy:
quote:You are absolutely ADORABLE that you think they give a shit about anything but the almighty dollar in their pocket.
Originally posted by deano:
It wouldn't lead to an increase in meal prices to compensate and better wages provided for by those higher prices for the waiting staff then?
quote:Mainly its that Malik apparently couldn't be bothered to get his shots in in a timely fashion, and as such felt the need to resurrect a this thread to update us on his blood pressure, or some darn thing.
Nah. That can't be it.
quote:Miss having your own Hell thread much?
Originally posted by deano:
Why has this thread started up again after a fortnight? Has Ken decided to expand on my his friends are allowed to cross a picket line but people like me will be called names for doing so?
Nah. That can't be it.
quote:Don't worry, I've a feeling he'll soon have frequent flyer privileges down here.
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
quote:Miss having your own Hell thread much?
Originally posted by deano:
Why has this thread started up again after a fortnight? Has Ken decided to expand on my his friends are allowed to cross a picket line but people like me will be called names for doing so?
Nah. That can't be it.
quote:Hostly Notice
Originally posted by deano:
Why has this thread started up again after a fortnight? Has Ken decided to expand on my his friends are allowed to cross a picket line but people like me will be called names for doing so?
Nah. That can't be it.
quote:bad deano. know your place.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Whether threads live or die is not up to you, sunshine. Feel free to throw insults around here but leave hosting to the Hosts. It's one of the few compensations of the job.
Sioni Sais
Hellhost
quote:yep. that's why the field has such a low turnover rate and so many people stick with it for a career.
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:Every now and then, some bright spark decides to poll waiters and ask whether they would prefer a system of decent wages and no tips. The vast majority always prefers to stick with tips - they know they're doing much better off tips than they would on a wage alone. Yes - even waiters at places like Applebees.
Originally posted by Tortuf:
The problem only starts with minimum wage applying to wait staff. It might resolve problems at places like Applebees where I imagine most tips are not substantial.
So the fact is that for all their voluble complaints about being "stiffed" by customers (and I have a European colleague who was once chased down the street by a waiter for not leaving a tip, because he hadn't understood that it was normal practice in the US), waiters prefer the current system.
quote:Passer! take your fucking stupidass grudge to the Styx if you must, but don't be a dick to the hosts here.
Originally posted by passer:
quote:bad deano. know your place.
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Whether threads live or die is not up to you, sunshine. Feel free to throw insults around here but leave hosting to the Hosts. It's one of the few compensations of the job.
Sioni Sais
Hellhost
quote:Such clever humor. Sorry, I just came across this thread yesterday when i posted the above posts. But re bothering, I wouldn't bother trying to mine for sympathy on this thread.
Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
quote:Mainly its that Malik apparently couldn't be bothered to get his shots in in a timely fashion, and as such felt the need to resurrect a this thread to update us on his blood pressure, or some darn thing.
Nah. That can't be it.
quote:you're absolutely ADORABLE that you think I don't know anything about economics despite having a degree in social science and I spend all my days working in finance and therefore understand the concept of 'inflation' and 'minimum wage not keeping up with' along with the concept of 'you can both work for justice on a macro and micro level', and therefore you think you're qualified to match your wages from the dawn of prehistory with the current economic situation.
Originally posted by Twilight:
The buying public should be able to regulate all this themselves. If it bothers you, don't frequent restaurants that under pay their staff. Don't keep raising your tip percentage because you mistakenly believe that you're covering for inflation, the price of the meal takes care of that.
quote:If they're friends, why are you tipping them?
Originally posted by Twilight:
I also should have made it clear, although I hate the bragging going on in this thread, that I myself tip 20% these days because that's become the expectation and we eat lunch out every day and are friends with our waiters.
quote:Because they're doing their job? I used to have a friend who owned a convenience store - neither of us expected that he would give me free groceries.
Originally posted by Spike:
If they're friends, why are you tipping them?
quote:An admirably polite answer to a fucking stupid question.
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:Because they're doing their job? I used to have a friend who owned a convenience store - neither of us expected that he would give me free groceries.
Originally posted by Spike:
If they're friends, why are you tipping them?
quote:Um, do you find that works as a way to get through the world?
Originally posted by Twilight:
My expectations of what other people might do is based on what I would do and I know I would never do that. YMMV
quote:Fair enough. I suppose the reason I asked it was as I was curious to know whether the waiters really are friends, or whether Twighlight just thinks they're her friends because they're nice to her while doing their job.
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:An admirably polite answer to a fucking stupid question.
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:Because they're doing their job? I used to have a friend who owned a convenience store - neither of us expected that he would give me free groceries.
Originally posted by Spike:
If they're friends, why are you tipping them?
quote:Of course not, but did you pay him over the odds or did you pay the standard price that everyone else paid?
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Because they're doing their job? I used to have a friend who owned a convenience store - neither of us expected that he would give me free groceries.
quote:That's not a reason for not tipping, that's a reason for walking straight out and not coming back again. Or paying at all.
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I think the only occasions we've failed to tip are when we've been on the receiving end of blatant racism for being a mixed family.
quote:As hard as it is for you to believe that I might actually have a friend, stranger things have happened. We do lunch out every day and some of the people who see us daily have begun to tell us about their own lives, their children, their car problems, etc. Other waiters we knew already, from clubs or churches.
Originally posted by Spike:
Fair enough. I suppose the reason I asked it was as I was curious to know whether the waiters really are friends, or whether Twighlight just thinks they're her friends because they're nice to her while doing their job.
quote:And that is really the point, and it is also what people who understand American social convention have been saying since page 1 of this thread. Tipping, in the United States, is part of the social contract; the vast majority of the time it is simply not optional, and almost no one, regardless of socio-economic status, thinks that it is.
The point is, here tipping IS part of the price everyone pays.
quote:That last is tricky. In general, customers deserve privacy. In my view, publishing any details about individual customers without their permission is grounds for instant dismissal.
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
Bottom line is, the "pastor" was being extremely churlish and cheap, and Applebee's deserves all the opprobrium that can be heaped on it for punishing someone who was simply calling attention to that fact.
quote:Don't tempt me!
Originally posted by ken:
quote:That's not a reason for not tipping, that's a reason for walking straight out and not coming back again. Or paying at all.
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I think the only occasions we've failed to tip are when we've been on the receiving end of blatant racism for being a mixed family.
Its also possibly a reason for writing to the manager/owner/local paper/city council/whoever naming and shaming the restaurant.
And if you thought you could safely get away with it, maybe firebombing the place and buring it to the ground.
quote:Yes, it really is a 1) reason for not tipping plus...
Originally posted by ken:
quote:That's not a reason for 1) not tipping, that's a reason for 2) walking straight out and not coming back again. 3) Or paying at all.
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I think the only occasions we've failed to tip are when we've been on the receiving end of blatant racism for being a mixed family.
Its also possibly a reason for 4) writing to the manager/owner/local paper/city council/whoever naming and shaming the restaurant.
And if you thought you could safely get away with it, 5) maybe firebombing the place and buring it to the ground.
![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
quote:Actually the woman's name was not blacked out or otherwise concealed from the original posting (as a note: in violation of Reddit's rules, too). Not to say that internet detectives wouldn't eventually have pieced it together had some basic precautions been followed, but it would have been harder.
Originally posted by orfeo:
I doubt the waitress who published this thought she *was* publishing the personal details of anyone. It was only because someone was able to figure out the identity.
Which is not an uncommon route these days - nothing like a bit of crowdsourcing on the internet to uncover this information. And perhaps the waitress should have thought of that. I'm just saying she probably wasn't intending to target the particular pastor, just the 'Christian' attitude.
quote:How deliciously ironic your signature is, given your bitching about tipping.
Originally posted by no prophet:
We ought to do good to others as simply as a horse runs, or a bee makes honey, or a vine bears grapes season after season without thinking of the grapes it has borne. (attrib: Marcus Aurelius)
quote:I see what you're saying, but the language here just seems so strange. The mere idea that I have to mentally treat the restaurant and the server as separate entities is part of what makes the translation to American tipping culture so difficult. It's just weird to think that I am effectively getting 2 different bills - one for the restaurant with set prices, and one for the staff with a somewhat fluid price.
Originally posted by Gwai:
I see the issues with the restaurant but I fail to see how any of those are related to the performance of your waiter or any of the people who served you while you ate. Sounds like a bad restaurant policy for sure, but why would that make you want to stiff your server?
quote:I used to be all for that. It fits right in with Jesus' admonition to give to whoever asks of us. Now I'm not so sure. Marcus Aurelius's phone didn't constantly ring with requests for the "Police's and Fireman's Fund," his mail box didn't overflow with requests ($150, $200, $300 check which one) for the Ocean Conservatory, Unicef, Doctors Without Borders, Friends of Animals, Ally Cat Rescue, and my personal favorite "Farm Animal Rescue," for all the mistreated chickens out there. His neighbors didn't knock on the door every single year for the Heart Fund, Red Cross and Cancer drives. His church didn't keep everyone late every week to talk about the annual Relay for Life, wells for African villages and motorcycles for preachers in Vietnam. His local news didn't have Breast Cancer Awareness month every year and his TV didn't jerk your heart strings for St Jude's hospital and Jerry's kids. His trips to the market didn't include requests for the March of Dimes and other assorted drives.
We ought to do good to others as simply as a horse runs, or a bee makes honey, or a vine bears grapes season after season without thinking of the grapes it has borne. (attrib: Marcus Aurelius)
quote:Thank for saying this so very well. That's it exactly.
Originally posted by orfeo:
I see what you're saying, but the language here just seems so strange. The mere idea that I have to mentally treat the restaurant and the server as separate entities is part of what makes the translation to American tipping culture so difficult. It's just weird to think that I am effectively getting 2 different bills - one for the restaurant with set prices, and one for the staff with a somewhat fluid price.
Because it seems to me that's effectively what your system is. The restaurant pays the wait staff a very small wage to be on the premises. The customers then pay those staff for their actual service.
There is a certain logic to that, but it's simply not the way that many of us from other countries are used to thinking about it. I'm used to thinking that the staff get paid a wage for their time/availability, and that if we add a bit to the bill it's a bonus for the restaurant as a whole.
quote:Your name must be Bell+Howell because you're a good projector.
Originally posted by Twilight:
Marcus and Mousethief would no doubt sneer at me for saying "No thanks" to the cashier who sweetly asks for a dollar "It's only a dollar," to help out whoever but I refuse to be bullied by those big charities that spend more money asking for money than they do helping the cause.
quote:So what you're saying, then, is, "Waaah! You guys don't do it the way we do!"
Originally posted by orfeo:
There is a certain logic to that, but it's simply not the way that many of us from other countries are used to thinking about it.
quote:Perhaps not, but the waiter wasn't asking for charity. You're comparing apples to oranges.
Originally posted by Twilight:
Marcus Aurelius's phone didn't constantly ring with requests. . . . I do know that most of us don't have enough money to just continuously hand it out. . . . Meanwhile quit judging the people who aren't giving what you think they should give (or tipping what you think they should tip.) It's not your business.
quote:No we're saying that this particular custom is not immediately comprehensible.
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:So what you're saying, then, is, "Waaah! You guys don't do it the way we do!"
Originally posted by orfeo:
There is a certain logic to that, but it's simply not the way that many of us from other countries are used to thinking about it.
quote:Yeah, it's a terrible system. I just wish most bad tippers were foreigners who didn't get it!
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:I see what you're saying, but the language here just seems so strange. The mere idea that I have to mentally treat the restaurant and the server as separate entities is part of what makes the translation to American tipping culture so difficult. It's just weird to think that I am effectively getting 2 different bills - one for the restaurant with set prices, and one for the staff with a somewhat fluid price.
Originally posted by Gwai:
I see the issues with the restaurant but I fail to see how any of those are related to the performance of your waiter or any of the people who served you while you ate. Sounds like a bad restaurant policy for sure, but why would that make you want to stiff your server?
quote:I'm afraid the natural assumption here would be that you'd left it by accident, and therefore it would end up in the lost and found spot, to be left until you called for it.
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I have occasionally left novels instead of money as a tip (ie have sat and eaten meal read book, and left book) - I have no idea what the wait staff thought about that.
quote:Oh fuck off you stupid little rodent. I wrote a post that was quite deliberately avoiding any sense of complaint or "Waaah!" in it. You want to talk about projecting?
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:So what you're saying, then, is, "Waaah! You guys don't do it the way we do!"
Originally posted by orfeo:
There is a certain logic to that, but it's simply not the way that many of us from other countries are used to thinking about it.
quote:So your point was what then? That y'all don't do it the way we do? Glad you pointed THAT out on page 5 of this thread, as nobody else has before.
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:Oh fuck off you stupid little rodent. I wrote a post that was quite deliberately avoiding any sense of complaint or "Waaah!" in it. You want to talk about projecting?
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:So what you're saying, then, is, "Waaah! You guys don't do it the way we do!"
Originally posted by orfeo:
There is a certain logic to that, but it's simply not the way that many of us from other countries are used to thinking about it.
quote:Are you saying you don't want to do it in your own country, or that when you come here, you don't want to do things according to the customs of our country? The former is hardly worth saying - nobody is requiring you do do it our way. The latter is selfish at very very best in this case.
Originally posted by no prophet:
Most the world doesn't want to do as the less than 5% of the world that the Excited States' population makes up. That would be another thread to discuss which nation whines more than another.
quote:Yeah, that must be it. Feel better now?
Originally posted by orfeo:
Perhaps it's just that you are so relentlessly insecure in your identity that you have to go all macho and defend The American Way in as belligerent a way as possible.
quote:Ladies? in Hell? On the Ship of Fools?
Originally posted by PeteC:
Now, boys, stop waving your peckers around.
There are ladies present.
quote:we always want what we can't have. makes you boys impossibly sexy.
Originally posted by orfeo:
Ladies are entirely safe from my pecker, so you needn't concern yourself with the size question.
