Thread: Purgatory: Yoga Sinful? Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Beautiful_Dreamer (# 10880) on :
 
Hi. I am new here and I was wondering if anyone thought Yoga or exercises like it was sinful. I am asking because a friend of mine reported some back pain and when I told him to try yoga (I used to do yoga before my accident, long story), he told me that he didn't want any part of it and seemed to find it sinful. He is an evangelical Christian. I personally don't see how exercise of any kind can be sinful in and of itself-when I practiced yoga, I just did the positions and did no chanting or anything like that.

So what do you think? Is yoga sinful? I think some people are just afraid of what they don't understand.

[ 14. February 2006, 03:45: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]
 
Posted by CrookedCucumber (# 10792) on :
 
quote:
So what do you think? Is yoga sinful? I think some people are just afraid of what they don't understand.
Sure, yoga is sinful. But's not as sinful as `naked Twister' [Smile]

[Er... you were yanking our chains, weren't you? I'll try for a serious answer if you tell me it's a serious question, but I'm not sure how it can be [Smile] ]
 
Posted by Sine Nomine (# 66) on :
 
There's nothing sinful about 'Naked Twister' if you're married. Marriage of course being defined as the union of one man and one woman.
 
Posted by Peronel (# 569) on :
 
Perfectly serious question, I'm guessing.

Here is a story about a vicar who banned the yoga group from his church hall.

Madness.
 
Posted by Littlelady (# 9616) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by CrookedCucumber:
quote:
So what do you think? Is yoga sinful? I think some people are just afraid of what they don't understand.
Sure, yoga is sinful. But's not as sinful as `naked Twister' [Smile]

[Er... you were yanking our chains, weren't you? I'll try for a serious answer if you tell me it's a serious question, but I'm not sure how it can be [Smile] ]
Well, CC, it could be a serious question. I remember in my early days as a Christian I started karate and was told by some Christian friends at the church I was then attending that karate was indeed sinful because chants to some foreign god were apparently involved. I looked abashed, since I hadn't chanted anything. I'd grunted a lot (oo-er) but that was only because the dan told us to, so as to sound aggressive and stuff.

I preferred the karate, so in the end I left the church for one which was less concerned about things like karate.
 
Posted by Beautiful_Dreamer (# 10880) on :
 
I personally can see how you would think the question wasnt serious but there are people who actually think yoga is sinful. They think the same thing about martial arts and pretty much anything else that involves making noise and wasn't invented by Christians. I am a formal fundamentalist and some of the things that people tried to tell me would make your head spin. I am so glad I got out with my faith intact. [Roll Eyes]
 
Posted by Mark Wuntoo (# 5673) on :
 
It's not always evangelicals who feel this way. I knew a minister of 'liberal persuasion' who wouldn't support it on church premises because of its association with another religion. Sinful by association, it seems. [Ultra confused]

Certainly the Ship is the place for guidance on the issue.

[ 08. January 2006, 19:33: Message edited by: Mark Wuntoo ]
 
Posted by Mad Geo (# 2939) on :
 
Yoga is stretching with relaxation excercises. If jogging is sinful (and it is in my world) than Yoga is sinful, which is to say, NOT.
 
Posted by Skinhead (# 10658) on :
 
I used to be a fundamentalist worried about being contaminated by non-Christian influences ... now I just have regrets about all the people I put off religion, and all the fun and growing-up I missed out on. [Two face] If our faith is valid, it can survive the juxtaposition with other faiths; in fact we might learn something from them in the process. I think Paul's discourse about eating meat offered to idols is relevant here - if it makes you feel guilty, it's bad, but it shouldn't! [Snore] [Overused]
 
Posted by dorothea (# 4398) on :
 
No, not unless you subscribe to the fearful ‘there’s a devil residing in every other religion/spiritual approach' theology. Anything that's good for your health can't be bad. Yoga has some benefits even if it promotes a vaguely universal Hinduism. For example, I sometimes practice a Yoga based meditation, which helps my asthma. I stopped worrying about being gobbled up by a false God years ago, especially as the practice helps my breathing and stress levels. The old adage about babies and bath water comes to mind. You don't have to accept everything in Hatha-Yoga philosophy, even if you practice the basic exercises. If it helps you breathing, improves your posture, etc. then that’s a good thing. I doubt many Christians would refuse to be treated by a doctor if he was Islamic, so why the fuss over age old healthy living practices, which have grown out of a different spiritual tradition?

J
 
Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
This is not the first time I have heard of the idea that yoga was sinful. I personally do not see any harm in either the relaxation exercises or the mental exercises to harness concentration powers.

I think that what confuses some of our more avidly fundamentalist brethren is that the religions of the East are not credal - they are philosophical systems. (Thomas Aquinas was good friends with the thought of Aristotle, even if Aristotle's god would have had few of the characteristics of that of the Jewish or Christian traditions.) [Smile] Hindu ideas of multiple gods aside, the combination of developing concentration and the focus and relaxation element in the physical exercises can be highly valuable - in meditation, not only physically. I myself do yoga exercises for my back.
 
Posted by m.t_tomb (# 3012) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Peronel:
Perfectly serious question, I'm guessing.

Here is a story about a vicar who banned the yoga group from his church hall.

Madness.
I must be insane then because I wouldn't like Yoga classes to be held on church premises.
 
Posted by Littlelady (# 9616) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by m.t_tomb:
I must be insane then because I wouldn't like Yoga classes to be held on church premises.
Why not?
 
Posted by CJ (# 2166) on :
 
I've found yoga to be the reverse of harmful spiritually, as well as physically. I have learned a lot about how posture and breathing affect our mind and spirit, and this has very practical and beneficial effects on my praying.

Very little teaching on prayer pays much attention to the physical aspects. For a religion which claims not to be dualist, Christianity can do a pretty good impression of it. Yoga helps me move a bit closer to praying with all of me. That doesn't make the prayer or the pray-er any less Christian.

(and it helps my backache, core strength, mood, blood pressure, flexability, fitness... but that wasn't the question)
 
Posted by the Pookah (# 9186) on :
 
Maybe it would help to realize there are a number of kind of Yogas.

Yoga does mean 'union' in Sanskrit but Hatha Yoga are purely physical exercises so that's not a problem unless the teacher tries to throw religion in.

There is Tibetan and Hindu deity yoga, which involves visualization & posture, but you'd know if you're chanting "Om" or "Namah Shiva" or seeing a 9 armed goddess so I wouldn't really worry:)

The same for martial arts, ask "what does this mean?" No one should have a philosophy or belief system shoved on them unknowingly.

I feel the same way about 'meditation' there can be a lot of Buddhist content & I would want people to be aware.
the Pookah
 
Posted by Fuzzipeg (# 10107) on :
 
Some Christian traditions do talk about posture etc when praying..........

Meditation is a Christian tradition and there are various schools of meditation within the tradition and they vary in approach.

Banning Yoga from the Church Hall! They'll be banning liquor next...sigh.
 
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 
It depends on the person. This is one of those cases of "food before idols". Yoga comes out of Hinduism. It has eight different limbs to the yoga quest

As you can see, one is forming oneself as a religious being through these practises. How far can a Christian go is a sensible question. When does use of these practises become a synchronistic approach or even Yoga teaching take over from the Christian teaching.

My source for this is Light on Yoga by BKS Iyengar. As you might guess it is a question I have struggled with myself. Circumstances rather than thought have made the decision for me. I found yoga exercises and breathing useful, but in the end the classes were at the wrong time. I have found other eastern systems that are not as strongly tied to another faiths religious teachings and now do those at home. Actually I think there is probably room for the development of Christian Yoga due to the fact Christianity has always used bits that are culturally outside it, and there exist Buddhist yoga schools.

Jengie

[ 08. January 2006, 20:40: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
 
Posted by FiliusSyon (# 10722) on :
 
What I think confuses many people is the breadth of the practices called "yoga". It is a word that contains afaik many different practices, from hindu devotional rites to the form of super-slow aerobics dominant in the west. In hinduism, there exists a theoretical framework connecting all those different forms of yoga. I don´t think this says anything about the actual spiritual content of the practices we label "yoga", and even less if it is a good thing.

Think for example of the beginnings of the hospital. In medieval ages, it is firmly linked to monastic orders and the concept of "caritas". One could even argue that the salvation through works was one of the driving concepts behind their institution. Still, I doubt we could find many protestants that reject hospitals on that ground.

So, while obviously certain practices started because of reasons we do not hold anymore, the practices continue, because they have been found beneficial in themselves, without the thoughts that may originally have given rise to their development.
 
Posted by Joan_of_Quark (# 9887) on :
 
I've actually seen a book somewhere called "Christian yoga" or "yoga for Christians" or some such, so someone has already thought of that one.

I've done yoga on and off for twenty years, purely as a means of getting more flexible and relaxing, without any of the spiritual content. As others have said, classes and styles vary a lot. It didn't seem to have any effect on my atheism for 20 yrs and so I assume it won't have any on my Christianity now. I also did a lot of martial arts, but nothing with any spiritual content - one class did have a couple of Muslims who were permitted not to bow to the teacher or anyone else as that would have caused them religious issues, the stuff we said in foreign languages was only "yes, teacher" and counting.
 
Posted by Back-to-Front (# 5638) on :
 
I have heard warnings about Yoga from RC and Orthodox sources, so it isn't just the fundamentalist Evangelicals that have an issue with it.

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
It depends on the person. This is one of those cases of "food before idols". Yoga comes out of Hinduism. It has eight different limbs to the yoga quest

As you can see, one is forming oneself as a religious being through these practises. How far can a Christian go is a sensible question.
Thank you for this, Jengie Jon.

I have never known much about Yoga, but knew that it was an eastern religious practice. If spiritual leaders of the Hindu tradition say that Yoga is inseparable from its Hindu roots, then they're the highest authority I have access to with my limited knowledge.

I can't really comment on the priest's actions in any detail, but it does seem that it's perhaps unfair to call it madness. There's clearly concern about Yoga for Christians from various and opposite corners of Christianity, so it isn't as though he's just being contrary.
 
Posted by A.F. Steve (# 9057) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dorothea:
No, not unless you subscribe to the fearful ‘there’s a devil residing in every other religion/spiritual approach' theology. (cut)

That mindset doesn't make much sense to me. It's the same one that says that playing Dungeons and Dragons is the first step in the road to hell (like this guy).

If you feel that your faith is weaker than the real or perceived powers of the evil spirit world, perhaps you shouldn't do it. I, for one, find that the New Testament is pretty clear that the law of God is about intent. Otherwise, with all that evil masonic imagery on the dollar bill, you'd have to spend your life avoiding 1's.

quote:
I doubt many Christians would refuse to be treated by a doctor if he was Islamic, so why the fuss over age old healthy living practices, which have grown out of a different spiritual tradition?
J
Oh really? I know Christians who refuse to buy gas from Muslim owned service stations. Not sure where Notlob is (is that Bolton spelled backwards?) but it must not be near T'leb Elbib, USA.
 
Posted by Littlelady (# 9616) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Back-to-Front:
If spiritual leaders of the Hindu tradition say that Yoga is inseparable from its Hindu roots, then they're the highest authority I have access to with my limited knowledge.
However, surely this is to assume that yoga, along with other non-Christian practices (of which, I'm sure, there are legion if we took time to think about it), have remained the same within the context of an adopted culture? That's not to say traditional yoga is not still accessible outside of India. However, I doubt very much that the yoga classes most of the people I know attend have any Hindu affiliation left at all. From what friends say, it is much more a kind of deep breathing, feel better, get focused kind of exercise. I've yet to hear any reference to any spirituality.
 
Posted by CrookedCucumber (# 10792) on :
 
I apologise for treating a question glibly that was seriously meant [Hot and Hormonal]

It seemed odd to me because, although I am aware at some level of a connection between yoga and Eastern religious thought, I've never experienced it as anything other than a form of exercise.

(To be honest, as somebody mentioned karate, I think the same about karate -- I've never really bought into this ``Seek perfection of character'' stuff -- it's just practicing punching and kicking.)

Even if some particular practice has its origins in non-Christian religion, I don't really see how the origins of the practice (taken alone) can make it `sinful'. As I see it, deeds, words, and motives can be sinful; religions and philosophies cannot be sinful except to the extent that they inspire sinful deeds, etc.

Or is the problem that, by practising yoga you're venerating Hindu gods or something like that? Presumably if you believe you are venerating Hindu gods, you are venerating gods. If you believe you are doing exercise, you are doing exercise.

Just my $0.02, of course.
 
Posted by dorothea (# 4398) on :
 
A.F Steve wrote:

quote:
quote: I doubt many Christians would refuse to be treated by a doctor if he was Islamic, so why the fuss over age old healthy living practices, which have grown out of a different spiritual tradition?
J

Oh really? I know Christians who refuse to buy gas from Muslim owned service stations. Not sure where Notlob is (is that Bolton spelled backwards?) but it must not be near T'leb Elbib, USA.
Well, in that case, IMO, those people have a real problem.

Yes, Notlob is Bolton spelt backwards, which I took from an old Monty Python sketch about a dead parrot. Perhaps those people you speak of would find the fact that I wrote my town backwards as evidence of the fact that I'm possessed by the Devil?

I don’t know how strong I am in the spirit, I rely on the my faith, but mediating to help my asthma feels safe enough.

J [Biased]

[ 08. January 2006, 21:04: Message edited by: dorothea ]
 
Posted by Vikki Pollard (# 5548) on :
 
Ooooh yes - I was taught that yoga, homeopathy, etc were sinful.

It strikes me now that perhaps the folk in my church didn't have REAL things to worry about.

Perfect love casts out fear, I read somewhere. [Biased]

ET correct spelling mistake which implied one should sleep with prefects. [Eek!]

[ 08. January 2006, 21:04: Message edited by: Vikki Pollard ]
 
Posted by Littlelady (# 9616) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by A.F. Steve:
Oh really? I know Christians who refuse to buy gas from Muslim owned service stations. Not sure where Notlob is (is that Bolton spelled backwards?) but it must not be near T'leb Elbib, USA.
If it is Bolton spelled backwards then, given the large Muslim population in that area of Lancashire, would your response still apply I wonder?
 
Posted by dorothea (# 4398) on :
 
Little Lady,
lots of people in Bolton have an Asian doctor. Of course some might be racist - I had an aunt like that - but it doesn't necesarily stop them from respecting their doctor's professional opinion.

Perphas it wasn't the best analogy to use but I think maybe it's being taken slightly out of context here.

(Edited for general incompetence!)

J

[ 08. January 2006, 21:10: Message edited by: dorothea ]
 
Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
I believe yoga is good for both body and soul. I am not afraid of hindu gods - if they exist, then it's OK to pray to them; if not, those prayers go to God.
 
Posted by Littlelady (# 9616) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dorothea:
Little Lady,
lots of people in Bolton have an Asian doctor. Of course some might be racist - I had an aunt like that - but it doesn't necesarily stop them from respecting their doctor's professional opinion.
I think I've been misunderstood, Dorothea. I was asking for clarification from A F Steve because I didn't understand his reference. I wasn't sure he knew that Bolton had a high population of Muslims. That's all. I wasn't implying anything. Sorry if I gave that impression.
 
Posted by The Machine Elf (# 1622) on :
 
I can remember reading Christian Yoga by Jean-Marie Dechanet in the weeks before I became a Christian, and still value its insights into how physicality can effect spirituality. My exercise of Yoga fizzled out, though I practiced for a few years from late teens on to early twenties. Nowadays I practise Tai Chi, both are forms that infuence spirit by posture and emphasise breath control. But then, so does classical western fencing. I am aware of Daoist resonances to my spirituality, but I don't know if that's from Tai Chi or fencing or reading Thomas Merton's Way of Chuang Tzu, or just following the way, truth and light Himself.


TME
 
Posted by A.F. Steve (# 9057) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I believe yoga is good for both body and soul. I am not afraid of hindu gods - if they exist, then it's OK to pray to them; if not, those prayers go to God.
Hehe... I can see it now!

Account named Vishnu@moksha.com does not exist. Your message is being forwarded automatically to God@heaven.com. This is a system email, please do not respond to this email directly.

//SIGNED//

Jeff, God of divine SMPT/POP3
fmr. God of Biscuits

For technical assistance, please consult your the technician at your nearest pray-mail server. These are easily identified by the large, pointed antenna on the roof.
 
Posted by adso (# 2895) on :
 
What if there are invocations to other gods/spirits involved?
I've never done yoga but have gone to a circle dance group over the past year. There are some great international dances, including a few traditional Jewish dances based on passages from the Psalms and Isaiah, and I often pray while dancing these. However, the group leader often asks us for a moment of silence while we invite the spirit of the dance to join us, and she leads occasional weekend sessions (which I haven't been to) of dances to invoke the Moon Goddess, or solstice renamimg/rebirthing ceremonies.
What are anyone's thoughts on this? Sorry it is a slight tangent but I don't think it really merits a separate thread.
 
Posted by Evo1 (# 10249) on :
 
I'm of the variety that would say that Yoga is spiritually dangerous for similar reasons to ouija boards, tarot etc.

And also mertial arts. For instance, the bow, thought now to be a sign of respect to the opponent, originally signified submission to gods etc.

I don't go for astrology either.

[ 08. January 2006, 21:49: Message edited by: Evo1 ]
 
Posted by dorothea (# 4398) on :
 
Little Lady,
my apologies if I misunderstood. But I still think A.F Steve took my analogy somewhat out of context but on the other hand perhaps he didn't.

J [Biased]

[ 08. January 2006, 21:55: Message edited by: dorothea ]
 
Posted by Littlelady (# 9616) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Evo1:
And also mertial arts. For instance, the bow, thought now to be a sign of respect to the opponent, originally signified submission to gods etc.
But why should what something used to mean, in another place and another time, have any relevance to now?

I took karate for years. I only ever bowed to my opponent. There was no teaching about gods of any kind. Karate, like many things, has been westernised in most cases. Quite often the dans are western. The ones who taught me were.
 
Posted by Littlelady (# 9616) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by dorothea:
Little Lady,
my apologies if I misunderstood. But I still think A.F Steve took my analogy somewhat out of context but on the other hand perhaps he didn't.

J [Biased]
It's possible he did. I've no idea, coz I still don't understand what it was he was trying to say! It seemed like what he was saying was that Christians in his locality were racist, but I was trying to clarify if that was the case and if Bolton having a high population of Muslims made any difference to his view. But I guess it'll all just remain a mystery. [Big Grin]
 
Posted by Evo1 (# 10249) on :
 
Don't know, I do know though that when I used to play with ouija, I gave no credance to any of that, but I do think that things worked through me regardless of what my motives were.
 
Posted by dorothea (# 4398) on :
 
Evo,
Eqauting Yoga with oujia boards and astrology is like mixing apples with pears. Or expecting X and Y to have the same meaning or value. I don't think yoga or karate are mentioned in the bible. Equating these practices with false gods and wicked powers seems a trifle reductive from where I'm sitting. It also creates at worst spiritual fear and at best a narrow minded perception of well respected practices.

J
 
Posted by Evo1 (# 10249) on :
 
Ok, just sharing my thoughts thats all.
 
Posted by Foolhearty (# 6196) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Marriage of course being defined as the union of one man and one woman.
Not in my church, it isn't. Union of two people, thank you.

Also one of our choir members teaches yoga in a church school classroom two nights a week.
 
Posted by A.F. Steve (# 9057) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Littlelady:
quote:
Originally posted by dorothea:
Little Lady,
my apologies if I misunderstood. But I still think A.F Steve took my analogy somewhat out of context but on the other hand perhaps he didn't.

J [Biased]
It's possible he did. I've no idea, coz I still don't understand what it was he was trying to say! It seemed like what he was saying was that Christians in his locality were racist, but I was trying to clarify if that was the case and if Bolton having a high population of Muslims made any difference to his view. But I guess it'll all just remain a mystery. [Big Grin]
That exactly it. Though not my locality so much as my hometown down south. Flashback to hearing my geteel Southern Baptist deacon great uncle saying, "I just can't buy my gas from those towel heads. I'd rather buy it from Jews than them."

Also, T'leb Elbib = Bible Belt
 
Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
My understanding is that the yoga postures are not Hindu worship in themselves, but merely a preparation (through strengthening the body and learning to control one's breathing) for meditation and/or worship. As has already been pointed out, it can be helpful in Christian prayer by allowing one to comfortably maintain an erect, awake, and yet relaxed posture while praying.

I suspect the vast majority of western yoga classes are more or less just exercise classes, though the non-gym-affiliated ones might tend to be taught by people into "new agey" stuff like health food and such. If one is concerned about being exposed to Hindu or New Age concepts, it shouldn't be difficult to find a purely exercise version of yoga.
 
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
If you take (Hatha) Yoga as most Westerners do - as healthy slow stretching (or in case of Asthanga, as a sort of medium-paced Eastern gymnastics) - then it is hardly at odds with Christianity. There's no rule against being or becoming healthy and limber as a Christian. However, if you do Yoga, if you use Hatha Yoga as physical formation for that particular spiritual path, then it's clearly non-Christian (and a "sin" in that you choose it over your Christianity). Basically, you cannot take Yoga and Christianity serious at the same time.

But even if you consciously use Hatha Yoga just as an exercise, some caution is clearly warranted. From my experience (I have done several years of Hatha Yoga, and some Asthanga, and I intend to continue the latter once I have more time again), teachers of Yoga are often "serious" about their Yoga. If they are well-informed, then this means they will be into some form of Eastern spirituality, if not, then they will be into some New Age pseudo-religion. It's fairly inavoidable that this will color their teaching of even "just the exercises" (as it should, for these exercises were meant to prepare the ground for the corresponding spirituality). Further, one thing we can learn from Eastern arts is that how the body is held and moved does influence the mind. I would suggest that for Christians there's are some interesting questions to be asked about Eastern "body expressions" of faith. It is far from clear to me that one can be humble before God in the Lotus seat.

I have no problems with sourcing the East for its riches in the body arts. I have done a fair bit of that myself. But precisely when we take their claims serious, we have to start asking questions. If they truly can affect the mind via the body, we have to ask: in what way, and do I truly want this? I think one can use the physical exercises of Yoga, but one has to consciously guard against Yoga taking over one's faith.
 
Posted by professorkirke (# 9037) on :
 
If Yoga puts you in contact with the divine, wouldn't we as Christians want that?

How could it take over one's faith? It's not professing to be a faith in itself, and it's not directing to you any specific divine.


B_D, I think you got it right when you said "People are afraid of what they don't understand." That's it exactly. Especially when it threatens our "us vs. them" constructs.

-Digory
 
Posted by the Pookah (# 9186) on :
 
Hmm, I wonder what Christian Indians do; Do they practice Hatha Yoga.
Listen all physical culture can be controversial. The ancient Hebrews were horrified when the Hellenized Jews exercised naked in the gymnasium. And then those communal Roman baths. Corrupting polytheists.
There is nothing new under the sun;-)
the Pookah
(oh Ingo, I and other Tibetan, Chinese etc Buddhists do full body on-the-floor prostrations)
 
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by the Pookah:
(oh Ingo, I and other Tibetan, Chinese etc Buddhists do full body on-the-floor prostrations)
I taught full body prostrations to beginners during my Zen days, since they were part of the regular "Sunday service" of our group. So what? My point with regards to the Lotus seat stands (or should that be "sits"? [Biased] ).
 
Posted by FiliusSyon (# 10722) on :
 
The lotus seat may actually be a very good example. It is in our view very much linked to Buddhist meditation. I happend to read up a little on the theory behind compassion meditation, and all writers I read gave the same reason for it: "It is the physically most stable way of sitting". Less danger of falling on face when falling asleep I guess.
 
Posted by Custard. (# 5402) on :
 
Since yoga is often inseperable from Hindu philosophy, would it not be a good idea to come up with something similar in terms of the exercises, but without the philosophical / religious undergirding, as has been done with Karate and Kickboxing?
 
Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
(In case you have no idea about the meditation postures I mention below, check out these pics.)

Except that Joe Average on a Western chair can outsit an accomplished Yogi in the Lotus seat, in particular if that Yogi does not adopt the practice of putting a cushion under their bum (not all do). And concerning stability without external aids, I doubt there's much improvement in the Lotus seat over the Burmese seat (which does not "knot" the legs). Personally, I can sit in Seiza longer than in half-Lotus (and I can hold full Lotus only for a couple of minutes on a good day). As for sleepiness, the full Lotus seat works for most Westerners simply by the pain it causes. It's difficult to go to sleep when your legs are killing you. Once the pain gets less (or the drowsiness worse), that changes. I've seen sleepy people topple forward and hit their heads on the wall from full lotus. But fair enough, if you must sit on the ground unaided and must worry about sleepiness overcoming pain, then the Lotus "tripod" structure is fairly stable. Why must you?

Anyway, my point has more to do with the "entirely erect spine" with "level head and slightly downward gaze" and "centeredness" in a "dignified bearing" with hands folded in a "cosmic mudra" that one is supposed to cultivate in the Lotus. It is indeed the posture of a spiritual prince in full command over his mind and body, who holds the universe in (or rather in front of, symbolically) his tanden (lower belly, center of gravity).

Now, either "There is absolutely no esoteric significance to the different positions.", as for example the website linked above asserts. In that case I wonder why so many practicioners either do the full lotus or at least approximate it as much as they can. Let's just bring some chairs to sit in comfortably and meditate, right? Or there is such a significance. In that case I wonder whether this posture fits a Christian spirituality.

Taken a look at this and this for Christian postures, as comparison. (I note that I had some trouble locating a picture guide to traditional Christian prayer postures on the web, these two were the best I could come up with. Can anybody help out?)

[ 09. January 2006, 06:26: Message edited by: IngoB ]
 
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :
 
There was a fairly insane far, far, far, right fundamentalist "christian" group where I used to live and work run by a group of complete control freaks who purported to know more about all sorts of professional issues than did the professionals!

These people condemned yoga and vegetarianism and martial arts as being all manifestations of the Anti-Christ.

Besides being able to quote scripture, something at which the Devil is also skilled, they gave little evidence that there was anything Godly about them at all.
 
Posted by Custard. (# 5402) on :
 
It missed out the classic "Shampooing Position" for prayer!

(sitting, leading forwards, elbows on knees or thighs, hands in hair)
 
Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 
I have taken tai chi classes several times (I never do the practice unless I'm in the class and then if I can't take it for a while I forget it), and never found it had anything in it that was in any way antithetical to my Christian beliefs. Maybe I'm just not subtle enough, or Christian enough.
 
Posted by m.t_tomb (# 3012) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
It missed out the classic "Shampooing Position" for prayer!

(sitting, leading forwards, elbows on knees or thighs, hands in hair)
Oh, you mean the evangelical hunch!
 
Posted by m.t_tomb (# 3012) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Littlelady:
quote:
Originally posted by m.t_tomb:
I must be insane then because I wouldn't like Yoga classes to be held on church premises.
Why not?
For the same reason I wouldn't want the church hall to be used as a Mosque, a New Age Fayre, or a Pagan Moot. Syncretism isn't my thing.
 
Posted by Qlib (# 43) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
...if you use Hatha Yoga as physical formation for that particular spiritual path, then it's clearly non-Christian (and a "sin" in that you choose it over your Christianity). Basically, you cannot take Yoga and Christianity serious at the same time.
Tell that to these people.
 
Posted by Qlib (# 43) on :
 
Sorry, it's not as clear from the link as i thought it was that RC nuns were involved from the early days. There is an article on the site from "The Tablet", but I can't link to it directly.
 
Posted by bubbles (# 9066) on :
 
Going back to the OP, I would say that yoga is potentially dangerous rather than sinful.

In Christian meditation, the mind is filled with Scripture, but in yoga the mind is emptied, and there is no control over what fills this void.
 
Posted by Caz... (# 3026) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by A.F. Steve:


//SIGNED//

Jeff, God of divine SMPT/POP3
fmr. God of Biscuits
Simon, God of Hairdos? [Biased]

My instinct is that with lots of these sorts of things there are things to be learnt from them that can help us physically, mentally and even spiritually that do not require us to "buy into" another belief system or undermine our own faith. So if yoga helps you exercise, relaxes and focuses your mind and puts you in touch with a sense of the divine; but your interpretation of that "divine" is the Christian God... I personally see no problem with that.

I can understand the problem with hosting classes on church premises as you would have no guarantee that the teacher / other students would not be embracing the more eastern religious / philosophical side of the practice. I don't know if I'd ban it though; perhaps I'd flood it with Christians using it positively to enhance their faith instead!
 
Posted by barrea (# 3211) on :
 
I think that most people, Christians included get into these things without realising that there are any deep spiritual significance in them. The people who think that they are just doing exercises are the ones who are most suprised and indignant when a minister bans them from the church hall. I used to think that acupuncture was OK even advised my sister to try it. Now I reallyregret that now since I realised what is behind it all. As God commands us to have no other Gods but Him, it is best if we leave these things alone, even if there is just a shadow of a doubt.
 
Posted by ezlxq (# 9265) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bubbles:
In Christian meditation, the mind is filled with Scripture, but in yoga the mind is emptied, and there is no control over what fills this void.
Not so in the Christian contemplative traditions, e.g. John Main.

e
 
Posted by Qlib (# 43) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by bubbles:
Going back to the OP, I would say that yoga is potentially dangerous rather than sinful.
Surely, religion generally is a dangerous business? Prayer is dangerous, trying to listen to a voice, or voices, outside your own head is dangerous.

People are liable to misinterpret their own whims and fancies as God’s will; they are liable to become self-righteous, narrow-minded and judgemental . Some might argue that the soul/mind/body division suggested by some Church teachings is dangerous and unhealthy. The belief in demons and a view of the self as torn between good and evil can lead to mental breakdown or the dissolution of personal coherence. Some forms of religious belief can leave people vulnerable to depression and schizophrenia.
 
Posted by Eigon (# 4917) on :
 
So, what's wrong with acupuncture?
I've seen it done but never tried it.

I tried yoga once, too, but I just couldn't get the hang of the lotus position - it hurt.

I've tried meditation in the John Main tradition, too (the lotus position would probably have been helpful, if I could have managed it). There were occasions when the leader of the meditation used a Tibetan bell or singing bowl at the end of the meditation time. To me that was just a rather nice sound - is that supposed to be sinful too?
 
Posted by The Wanderer (# 182) on :
 
I've done judo on and off for years. In the past I've had people telling me I should give it up because the bows before and after a mtach were in honour of a pagan god (unspecified), and that I was inviting that being into me. Errrr no, actually. A boxing match begins and ends with a handshake to show you are opponents but still respect each other; the bow is the equivalent in a culture that doesn't shake hands. I think it is possible to take little things and make them into something far more important than they actually are.
 
Posted by Mark Wuntoo (# 5673) on :
 
acupuncture! [Ultra confused]

What's behind it - my pain that's what was behind it and it certainly helped - a lot more than physical manipulation or pills. And it was recommended by a western doctor and it was done to me by a western youngish man. And it was on the NHS.

Must have been 'of God' as far as I'm concerned. Never thought otherwise.

I'm reminded of an old saying "The devil's in your mind, laddie".

(edited because I'm slow)

[ 09. January 2006, 13:48: Message edited by: Mark Wuntoo ]
 
Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Eigon:
There were occasions when the leader of the meditation used a Tibetan bell or singing bowl at the end of the meditation time. To me that was just a rather nice sound - is that supposed to be sinful too?
OMG! Not a TIBETAN bell! That specifically invites TIBETAN DEMONS into your soul, and there's nothing you can do to stop them!
 
Posted by IconiumBound (# 754) on :
 
Coincidently, the PBS program Religion and ethics News Weekly had this presentation on a popular Yoga program.

Iyengar yoga teacher

It would be difficult after watching/reading this to believe that yoga is not a different religion.
 
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :
 
No hope for me, I would imagine. I live in a predominantly Hindu culture, my partner is a Hindu, though he chooses to worship as a Catholic, which some so called Christians refuse to see as anything but evil anyway. And, shock horror, we are both men!

[Eek!]

We're even thinking of going on a pilgrimage to Sabarimala, to the shrine of Lord Ayyappa in 2007.

[Eek!]

Would it save time if I reported straight to the Inquisition?

[Eek!]
 
Posted by Hilda of Whitby (# 7341) on :
 
I practice Ashtanga yoga, and have for years. It has helped me with a chronic back ailment and given me a lot of strength and flexibility which has kept decrepitude at bay. I feel enormous well-being after my practice. I don't chant, bow at anyone's feet, or call the main teacher of Ashtanga yoga (PKS Jois) "Guruji", like many other Ashtanga yoga students do. I suppose for me it is "exercise", and very helpful it is. The idea that it is "dangerous" in some way is bosh.

Hilda
 
Posted by FiliusSyon (# 10722) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:

Except that Joe Average on a Western chair can outsit an accomplished Yogi in the Lotus seat, in particular if that Yogi does not adopt the practice of putting a cushion under their bum (not all do). And concerning stability without external aids, I doubt there's much improvement in the Lotus seat over the Burmese seat (which does not "knot" the legs). Personally, I can sit in Seiza longer than in half-Lotus (and I can hold full Lotus only for a couple of minutes on a good day). As for sleepiness, the full Lotus seat works for most Westerners simply by the pain it causes. It's difficult to go to sleep when your legs are killing you. Once the pain gets less (or the drowsiness worse), that changes. I've seen sleepy people topple forward and hit their heads on the wall from full lotus. But fair enough, if you must sit on the ground unaided and must worry about sleepiness overcoming pain, then the Lotus "tripod" structure is fairly stable. Why must you?

Anyway, my point has more to do with the "entirely erect spine" with "level head and slightly downward gaze" and "centeredness" in a "dignified bearing" with hands folded in a "cosmic mudra" that one is supposed to cultivate in the Lotus. It is indeed the posture of a spiritual prince in full command over his mind and body, who holds the universe in (or rather in front of, symbolically) his tanden (lower belly, center of gravity).

Now, either "There is absolutely no esoteric significance to the different positions.", as for example the website linked above asserts. In that case I wonder why so many practicioners either do the full lotus or at least approximate it as much as they can. Let's just bring some chairs to sit in comfortably and meditate, right? Or there is such a significance. In that case I wonder whether this posture fits a Christian spirituality.

Taken a look at this and this for Christian postures, as comparison. (I note that I had some trouble locating a picture guide to traditional Christian prayer postures on the web, these two were the best I could come up with. Can anybody help out?)
You raise some valid points here. As I understand it, there are no real reasons against the seiza position. Perhaps after meditating six hours a day for a year I would feel a little different.

As for the reason why the Buddhists use the lotos seat, I guess tradition plays a large role. The rest of the meditating world likes it, because it is not easy to do and shows the plebs what an enlightened being they are [Big Grin]

About the sleepiness problem: Sleep is not meditation. I guess thats the basic problem. If you meditate while lying down, you may as well go to sleep. I do not see a reason speaking against seiza, though.

I do not doubt that some esoteric significance for the lotus seat has been constructed - you can construct an religious meaning for everything, and indeed that is a favourite way for men of religion to pass time. However when some Buddhist teachers say that it is for practical reasons, I see no reason to doubt that as the primary motivation. Which also is the reason why anyone can use it without fear of hellfire.
 
Posted by barrea (# 3211) on :
 
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Eigon:
[QB] So, what's wrong with acupuncture?
I've seen it done but never tried it.

Maybe this link could answer your question web page ship of fools
 
Posted by barrea (# 3211) on :
 
Sorry I will have to relearn how to do links [Smile]
 
Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :
 
That would be helpful, Barrea. My physio is proposing acupuncture on Friday for my shoulder problem and I would be very interested indeed to know why it might be considered a problem for Christians.
 
Posted by CrookedCucumber (# 10792) on :
 
quote:
I used to think that acupuncture was OK even advised my sister to try it. Now I reallyregret that now since I realised what is behind it all. As God commands us to have no other Gods but Him, it is best if we leave these things alone, even if there is just a shadow of a doubt.
Every so often it's good to read something which reminds me so effectively how little I understand people.
 
Posted by Rat (# 3373) on :
 
I think this is the link barrea was trying to make.

The problem I have with its argument is the assumption that because the effect of acupunture was originally explained in Taoist terms, that rules out the practice forever more. It could be that the originators of the practise were mistaken about the reason for it working but stumbled upon a useful practical technique nonetheless, with some entirely non-religious reason for its efficacy. Ancient wise women probably thought willow bark was good for pain because of tree spirits or some such thing - but that doesn't change the fact that it has aspirin-related stuff in it.

(The above is assuming acupuncture is effective, which I know nothing about. And also assuming I had a problem with the idea of a Christian trying out a Taoist practise, which I don't. But you see what I mean, I hope. )
 
Posted by chukovsky (# 116) on :
 
I practice yoga, and have done Hatha and Iyengar mainly, with a bit of Ashtanga. I often use silent meditation times to pray, find it extremely helpful, and almost all my teachers (except one I had about 20 years ago) have assumed their class is full of sceptics and/or people of specific religions, and that not all practices are going to be helpful to everyone. In fact, I don't think any of them have seen yoga as a "spiritual" or "religious" practice, except in the loosest sense - they tend to explain the mental and physical benefits meditation can have, rather than telling us about the Higher Power, for example. They are extremely careful not to offend, or push any sort of belief - if they even have it.

Rather like a non-Christian telling the story of Christmas, they tend to de-spiritualise the practices and relate them to common values and morals, everyday life etc.

In fact, it is rather a lot like Christmas or other festivals that have pagan origins - if you want to go completely over the top and/or be completely consistent, you could not celebrate things like that "because they have pagan origins". Or, you can take the good things from them and reason that good things come from God.

You can, of course, find people that see Yoga mainly as a spiritual practice, just as you can find groups that celebrate Beltane, but most people don't.
 
Posted by Timothy the Obscure (# 292) on :
 
quote:
In Christian meditation, the mind is filled with Scripture, but in yoga the mind is emptied, and there is no control over what fills this void.
God controls what fills the void. Trusting him to do that seems part of the point. As someone pointed out, there are several different forms of Christian meditation, not all of which involve scripture, and some of which do seek, in some sense, to empty the mind (or at least to quiet it--emptying is probably not really possible, as a lot of Buddhist teachers acknowledge).

As for the significance of particular postures, ISTM that that's purely a matter of invented symbolism--and a symbol means whatever you think it means (or whatever you and someone else agree it means). Symbols acquire new meanings all the time. Purists of various sorts always object, but that's the way culture works. The Christian postures in IngoB's link are all drawn from human relationships and taken metaphorically to express a particular type of relationship to God. I see no problem with inventing new metaphors that may be more resonant with our experience--after all, few of us have any direct experience of petitioning a king. It seems odd to me that Christians would concretize those metaphors (let alone concretize Hindu/Buddhist metaphors) to such an extent that they are seen as immutable features inherent in a symbolic act.
 
Posted by The Machine Elf (# 1622) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Rat:
I think this is the link barrea was trying to make.
I would't bother reading past the second sentence - the body of the bronze age man found on the Swiss/Italian border a few years ago had evidence of acupuncture - tattoos marking the pressure points still used to work against the joint troubles he was suffering from. So anything that starts from the assumption that acupunture is a product of Taoism is probably out by a few thousand years, even if the rest was justifyable.

Brewing wine and baking bread also originated in pagan cultures in the bronze age.


TME
 
Posted by Timothy the Obscure (# 292) on :
 
And both wine and bread were used sacramentally by pagan religions.
 
Posted by Auntie Doris (# 9433) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Jahlove:
That would be helpful, Barrea. My physio is proposing acupuncture on Friday for my shoulder problem and I would be very interested indeed to know why it might be considered a problem for Christians.
I have had acupuncture quite a lot as one of my friends is an acupuncturist.

I believe that some Christians have a problem with it because of the belief that the body has energy meridians running through it which carry chi (energy). Acupuncture aims to release blockages in the meridians. Most people will see this as an Eastern way of viewing the body and the way it works.

I found acupuncture so helpful for chronic headaches and also backache. I really rate it for dealing with pain and also aiding relaxation. Whilst I was doing my Masters I had it done about 4 times a week, sometimes more often. I still believe that it was about the only thing that helped me keep my sanity!

Auntie Doris x
 
Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :
 
Thank you. Antecedent damnation. Original Pin.
 
Posted by Foolhearty (# 6196) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
These people condemned yoga and vegetarianism and martial arts as being all manifestations of the Anti-Christ.
(Emphasis mine)

But-- but -- it says right in Genesis that we are only to eat seed-bearing plants!

(Gasps and subsides in dead faint)
 
Posted by annecdote7 (# 9533) on :
 
From my understanding of Yoga, it's about as evil as Christmas Trees and Wreaths, which is to say, I don't think it's evil. But rather it's a shell of a tradition that had spiritual content, but has been rather secularized, which means you can fill it with whatever spiritual content you deem meaningful.

As to Digory's question about "what if invoking spirits is involved?" I don't know. Well. I do feel like I know. It's probably not good. The harder question is how do you gracefully (with love) bow out of a ceremony when it takes that turn?
 
Posted by the Pookah (# 9186) on :
 
Hey don't forget the good stuff in Leviticus!
get busy guys there is a lot of stuff to do
&
no eating non-kosher food;-)
the Pookah, who will take any prayer or blessing she can get
 
Posted by barrea (# 3211) on :
 
Thank you Rat for getting the link up It was the one that I intended/
 
Posted by A Lurker (# 3377) on :
 
On the subject of posture in meditation - I believe that there is no great 'magic' to the lotus position. However, I have found that meditation is more powerful if you are more aware that you have a body, and the tendancy in the west is to be very thought-focussed and be unaware of the body. Meditation with greater awareness of the body stands a better chance of creating a connection between the whole of your being and God.

And I view practices like yoga as massively valuable for creating this awareness. I practice Tai Chi, which also achieves the same purpose for me but involves fewer uncomfortable positions.
 
Posted by A Feminine Force (# 7812) on :
 
Hi,

quote:
In Christian meditation, the mind is filled with Scripture, but in yoga the mind is emptied, and there is no control over what fills this void.


If you ever succeed in getting your mind to shutthefckup, you know how much control is involved in "empty mind".

Inner wordlessness is a good place to be, not a bad place.

No control is necessary.

In my experience, Christian word meditation is fine, but it's just shouting down stream of consciousness drivel. In my mind, it's a loud place to be, and takes second place over wordlessness.

FF
 
Posted by Custard. (# 5402) on :
 
Proper Christian meditation (in the thinking about something sense, not in the mantra sense) is great, when you find yourself focusing entirely on God and obsessed by him, with no distractions.

It's much better to have a mind full of something good than empty of anything.
 
Posted by dorothea (# 4398) on :
 
Timothy wrote:

quote:
God controls what fills the void. Trusting him to do that seems part of the point.
J [Overused]
 
Posted by A Feminine Force (# 7812) on :
 
quote:
It's much better to have a mind full of something good than empty of anything.


Speaking for yourself, I hope.

I don't experience empty as negative.

I have never met anyone who achieves "empty" and comes out of it saying "Gah...I never want that to happen to me again."

FF
 
Posted by Emma. (# 3571) on :
 
slight tangent - but related I think,

Im thinking of doing some meditation exercises with my RE classes. In particular I was thinking about doing a 5min "stilling" exercise now and then and perhaps a longer one with my general re set (pre exam stress...)((even a nice "imagine youre on a beach" type stress relaxation exercise ))

Does anyone have any sort of "script" I could use with them?

I dont **think** Id be doing anything wrong with respect to the christians in my class would I? I can tell them that christians meditate, (any links to brief examples/ history?) and presumably let them opt out/in?

Any thoughts.....
 
Posted by Beautiful_Dreamer (# 10880) on :
 
I dont think you would be doing wrong by the Christians in your class as long as you do it purely as a relaxation/getting in the worship frame exercise, and allow them to opt out if they wish.
 
Posted by cometchaser (# 10353) on :
 
I dont know where to start with this.

I'm anglican. practicing. Also a praticing yogini of about 12 years (mostly anusara tradition, for those who know), and will be working on my RYT classes next winter, if all goes well.

after reading the thread, my head is full and I'm having trouble tackling this, so please bear with me.

Yoga is not a religion, it is a lifestyle that emphasizes spirituality. Lower case s.

whoever mentioned Christmas - I'm in your debt. someone else said that some hindu teachers say that you can't separate yoga from Hinduism. Some (many) Christian teachers say you can't separate Christmas from Christianity. right. but look at the MILLIONS of people who, in fact, have. you can't tell me the gross commercialism of Walmarts opening at 4 am, Furby Riots, and the Macy's parade are in any way Christian.

YES, christianity and christmas are forever linked, and for those of us who are Christian, the connection is big and obvious and important. but do you think the jews who buy fruitcakes for their co-workers (I have one) are opening themselves up for the spirit of Christ to slip in when they aren't looking?

I don't think Christ is that kind of guy.

Beyond that... I dont know about you all, but I quite simply believe in One God. period. I am not opening myself up to an ambush attack by Vishnu, because frankly folks I dont believe Vishnu exists. so how am I in danger? There is no Vishnu. No Dirga, no Loxmi, no Kali. So I'm not afraid of squat.

(my apoligies to Woderick's SigO)

When I do yoga (daily) I begin with and invocation and dedication. in my case, I pray to God. (you know, THE God - Jesus' Pop. the Big Fella with infinite love and all that) this is to focus my crazy brain, dedicate today's practice, and calm down. So, perhaps it will be recoving from a headcold (this morning's practice) or maybe it's working on tight hamstrings, or maybe it's building more compassion for that obnoxious woman who is always calling me at work to complain, etc.

Once I have centered myself, dedicated my practice, and prayed, then I go through my postures, usually for 45 minutes or so. then I follow up with another short meditative session.

So yes, it is a physical discipline, but it is also a spiritual and mental discipline, no arguement.

and yes, an empty mind, if you can pull it off for a moment or two, is a beautiful, Divine Thing. I'm not afraid of what will slip in. it's usually a phone bill or shopping list. (insideous stuff)

Someone (I'm so sorry I can't remember anyone's names at the moment!) posted the limbs of yoga, based on Patanjali's Yoga Sutras. Notice, PLEASE, that none of them say to which God you must pray. just that you must develop yourself spiritually, and work towards oneness with "The Divine". Are any of us arguing that working towards a oneness with the Divine is a bad idea?

here you can find an excellent "quick and dirty" article on the eight limbs.

as for the sinfulness.

I can only speak from the heart here, I am not a christian scholar; just a humble believer. I can't throw scripture around and I'm sure that anything I say can be countered by someone who can.

I have a disability. officially, on the "books". I was told that by age 25 I would be in a wheelchair. I am 32. I work full time, hike, ski, do all my own chores, and all of this while medication free for a year now. No, I'm no super athlete, and I never will be. but I am functional, and strong, and happy. this is due in large part to my yoga practice. not just the physical postures, which are very important, but also the discipline required, and the love and forgiveness I have learned to direct towards my own self.

My yoga teacher always points out that if she teaches us nothing else, she just wants to teach us to be still. learning to be still, to listen to myself, to observe my world, to love and forgive myself, to have compassion for everyone around me who is slogging through this same tough life - that has saved me.

before yoga - I carried anger and hatred and judgement against myself and everyone else. I demanded perfection. I worked myself like a dog. yoga has taught me to look inward, to cease judging, and to face the world with love and compassion.

that is sinful?

that is God. that is why I am a Christian.

Love one another. get it?

So yes, okay the theologists can tussle over whether you are opening yourself up to demons, or whether a nice focusing "om" is invoking a mythical being (note - not real). They can argue over which religion trumps another, or whether you can include one tradition into another.

But if we can incorporate pagan traditions into christianity, why can't I incorporate a tradition which has changed my life so much? Which has, in fact, brought me so much closer to God?

I could ramble on all day, but it wont get me any closer towaqrds expressing myself properly. please take this as it was intended - additional information and one person's view on the debate. I thank Beautiful Dreamer for beginning this discussion, it is an important one to me.

Comet

PS - until we had a dedicated studio, our yoga group met in the local RC church. We also used to meet in the "seven day adventure" church, until they decided we were demonic. [Frown] it just seems to me there so mo much more important things to be fighting out there, than good healthy, spiritual traditions.
 
Posted by Welease Woderwick (# 10424) on :
 
Thank you cometchaser!

[Overused]
 
Posted by IconiumBound (# 754) on :
 
Isn't the practice of yoga basicly an exercise in self-exaultation? That is, the concentration on posture, breathing, mind control despite the claim to be self-emptying, are really promoting "How wonderful I am to be in such total control of my being!" Is the logical extnsion of this "I am like God!"?
 
Posted by CrookedCucumber (# 10792) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by IconiumBound:
Isn't the practice of yoga basicly an exercise in self-exaultation? That is, the concentration on posture, breathing, mind control despite the claim to be self-emptying, are really promoting "How wonderful I am to be in such total control of my being!" Is the logical extnsion of this "I am like God!"?
Er... no.
 
Posted by A Feminine Force (# 7812) on :
 
Well, didn't He make us in His image?

What harm is there in discovering in what ways I and God are similar?

There's a big difference between saying "I am like God" and "I am God".

The result of discovering any similarity does not necessarily have to be arrogance. It can also be humility, awe, wonder and gratitude.

FF
 
Posted by The Wanderer (# 182) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Emma.:
slight tangent - but related I think,

Im thinking of doing some meditation exercises with my RE classes. In particular I was thinking about doing a 5min "stilling" exercise now and then and perhaps a longer one with my general re set (pre exam stress...)((even a nice "imagine youre on a beach" type stress relaxation exercise ))

Does anyone have any sort of "script" I could use with them?

I dont **think** Id be doing anything wrong with respect to the christians in my class would I? I can tell them that christians meditate, (any links to brief examples/ history?) and presumably let them opt out/in?

Any thoughts.....
Don't just do something - sit there Mary K Stone RMEP 1-85175-105-X.

I've often used the exercises there with RE classes, and they have normally gone down well.
 
Posted by cometchaser (# 10353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by IconiumBound:
Isn't the practice of yoga basicly an exercise in self-exaultation? That is, the concentration on posture, breathing, mind control despite the claim to be self-emptying, are really promoting "How wonderful I am to be in such total control of my being!" Is the logical extnsion of this "I am like God!"?
IB - are you being tongue-in-cheek, or serious? not sure how to respond.

Assuming this is a serious query - I would say most emphatically NO yoga is not self-exaultation. Yoga is self discovery, however. for most of us, I would say it is more humbling at times than self-aggrandizing. Honestly, when you are in that intense stretch with the unpronouncable name, your thoughts aren't going to be, "look how wonderful I am!" so much as "GADS why didnt anyone tell me my toenails are so greusome?"

That being said, yoga is very good for the self esteem. mostly because it shows you yourself as you really are, "warts and all" as my mother would say. so, not only to you realize that you have such a poochy stomach you just CANT twist that way, but you also learn to be okay with that. you learn to like things about yourself that you never even knew existed.

for instance - lotus pose was mentioned earlier in the thread. I've been doing the "yoga thang" for most of my adult life, and I can't do lotus. my hips are just not that open. my previous self would have pushed to make it happen, and fumed that I wasn't thre yet. but honestly, if I never manage a lotus, I'm good with that. s'ok. I can pull off a rockin' Camel Pose, and that's a toughy. so yay me.

does this make me see myself as somehow in comparison to God? well, yes. I am God's creature, created in His image, and despite the flaws, my body can do some pretty cool things.

does this make me an all powerful, miracle working, God Being?

Uh... No.

It makes me a beautiful child of God, and always a Work in Progress.

as for me being in total control of my being, as you may note in my earlier post, it's not about so much ME being in total control, as it is asking God to help me learn to work with what I have. That's why the Niyamas and the 8th Limb specifically call us to accept the divine. it's like the 12 steps, first you gotta admit you are not, in fact, in any real control at all.

"Dear God, this morning I am groggy and I dont WANT to stretch, I want to sleep. and I know when I get into Pigeon Pose it's going to hurt, and I dont want to hurt. So will you please help me notice the good bits, because the bad bits always shout the loudest!"

Comet
 
Posted by Emma. (# 3571) on :
 
You may well laugh out loud at this.... it certainly gave me a good chuckle [Smile] Ive started a new job and at school they have a "relaxation" class after school on wednesadays that i was today invited to. Youve guessed it... yoga positions followed by a meditation [Smile] [Smile] [Smile]

tee hee hee

Thanks WAnderer - Ill look it up [Smile]


(comet - btw - *should* it hurt?!?!?)
 
Posted by cometchaser (# 10353) on :
 
quote:
Originally posted by Emma.:

(comet - btw - *should* it hurt?!?!?)
only "good" hurt - i.e. "feel the burn", intense stretch, etc. My teacher calls it "sensation." [Roll Eyes]

in my case (and in pigeon pose) I have a tricky hip that pops, and right before the release of the pop it is fairly uncomfortable.

no, it should never really hurt, nothing sharp, nothing truly burny, nothing tearing, etc. the standard rule of thumb is to go to your edge, wherever that is, and stay there and explore it. it is different every day. in time, you find your edge is closer and closer to where the final pose resides. but one should never push past their personal edge.

C
 
Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 
May I interrupt this thread to pay my respects to my 85 year old mother who practices and teaches yoga. [Overused]

As an Anglican lay reader she has had thirty years of battles with fundo/evo/narro minded god-botherers who want to eradicate yoga from the world. [Disappointed]

Personally I'm not into yoga. Some of those poses are just too weird. But I've checked over the years and the old girl doesn't seem to be harbouring any more demons than the average gym junkie or pavement pounder.
 
Posted by cometchaser (# 10353) on :
 
right on Zappa Mama! I hope that will be me someday

C
 


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