quote:

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Originally posted by Emma.:
marriage doesnt bring fulfillmennt, and can be as lonely as the "single life" at times...

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Thank you for the obvious, we would never have guessed

My friend (and many who I know are single) do not tend to have a 'grass is greener' idea; rather their view is why am I stuck in this single life when I long go be connected.
 

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Posted by hatless (# 3365) on :
 
What if I long to be a celebrity, but find myself condemned to non-entityhood? What if I am a rich man leading a poor man's life? What if, deep down, I know I am meant to be brilliant and witty, but can't break out of my dull and predictable personality? What if my true calling is to be single, but I find myself stuck in a marriage, connected to someone else, and surrounded by c/h/i/l/d/r/e/n emotional leeches?

I suppose I'm attacking the self pity of the single, and I'm married so have no business to. I don't know what it's like. I have heard people speak with great feeling about their hurt at unchosen singleness. I don't want to make light of it. But. There's plenty of muck to go round in life. And part of the problems of many of us is a foolish sense of being hard done by. As if it was someone's fault that we can't get married, or have bad teeth, or too many kids, or a dreary job, or a chronic illness, or such dreadful neighbours. We'd get on better if we didn't dwell on the unfairness. It shouldn't be like this, but it is, so ...
 

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Posted by Laura (# 10) on :
 
She should get some hobbies and stop thinking about it so much. And she should figure out how to enjoy life alone. Tough love, maybe, but what's the alternative? She can't forcibly change her marital status. All she can change is herself.
 

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Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by nouwen:
What if, deep within she knowns that her life needs ot be joined with another, but that 'other' never comes along. What theology helps this?

---

quote:

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For people who desire true love, the Lord provides it, and if it is not found on earth, He provides it in heaven. This results from the fact that all true love and all true marriages are provided by the Lord.

---

I don't know how helpful it is to say that if you don't find someone on earth you will find them in heaven. I do think that it is true.

I like the idea that conjugial pairs are born and guided by divine providence towards each other throughout their lives. But this idea does raise a number of theological problems.

[ 09. September 2005, 00:09: Message edited by: Freddy ]
 

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Posted by Duo Seraphim* (# 3251) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laura:
She should get some hobbies and stop thinking about it so much. And she should figure out how to enjoy life alone. Tough love, maybe, but what's the alternative? She can't forcibly change her marital status. All she can change is herself.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Duo Seraphim*:
I understand nouwen's friend to be feeling that particular lack, that there is a good that God has bestowed on others - someone to be their partner and to share their life - that He has denied her. And then it is reasonable to ask why.

---

quote:

---

I find the theology of swearing at God and telling him where to stick his "gift of singleness" helps quite a bit. It's theraputic anyway.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I've also had people tell me to just hang out with my platonic friends more.

---

Yeah, I get that too. But have you noticed that as time goes on, one by one your platonic friends get matched up and ever so subtly you get to see less and less of them? And one is ever more doomed if one's platonic friends are of the opposite gender.

to overly paranoid gfs of my friends.
 

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Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by josephine:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Duo Seraphim*:
I understand nouwen's friend to be feeling that particular lack, that there is a good that God has bestowed on others - someone to be their partner and to share their life - that He has denied her. And then it is reasonable to ask why.

---

Is it? Does nouwen's friend also want to know why God has bestowed good things on her that other people lack? Does she cry all over her friends because God has unfairly granted her good health, because she never goes hungry, because her home is dry and the power is on and fresh pure water comes out of the tap at the touch of a faucet?

Why do we act as if God owes us an explanation when we don't get what we want, but accept the things we want without a second thought?

---

Speak for yourself. I don't cry all over my friends because God has granted me good health and a whole lot of other things, but I really would like to know why God has bestowed on me so many things that other people lack. I certainly do not accept the things I want without a second thought. I may not always be as grateful as I should be, but I hardly think I'm entitled to the things that I have that are just flat-out gifts from God.

So I don't feel at all bad for occasionally crying out to God when something really hurts, wanting to know why I have such pain. It's completely legitimate.

As for the advice that nouwen's friend should get a hobby, stop thinking about it so much, and learn to enjoy life alone -- been there, done that, got all the collectible action figures. I'd add chanting this mantra: "It's better to be alone than to be in a bad relationship." But let's face it, if someone feels that being in a good relationship would be better than being alone, no matter how well-adjusted they are and no matter how full and rewarding their life is, there are still going to be those times when they go home and cry or punch a hole in the wall because it's just so painful to be alone.

What I would suggest to someone in the position of nouwen's friend is that perhaps this conviction, this knowledge that she is not meant to be alone, is really just desire, not knowledge. And as the Stones told us long ago, you can't always get what you want.
 

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Posted by Gort (# 6855) on :
 
nouwen, tell your friend not to give up. If a meaningful, intimate relationship with another person is a priority, then she should give it all the effort and attention she can muster. There is no reason to justify failure by 'getting used to it' or any other condescending platitudes. Guys appreciate intelligence, confidence, magnanimity, cheerfulness, good humour and (personally) aggressive honest sexuality.

Tell her to cheer up, get out there and go for it.
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 66) on :
 
This may or may not be a stupid contribution. I'm not sure. But I was in a similar though not identical discussion earlier this evening. On suffering actually.

The two comments I took away were "Instead of asking 'why me?' I ask 'why not me?'" and "I've given myself permission not to have to understand why."
 

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Posted by Dee-nz (# 5681) on :
 
aggressive honest sexuality

Wow, (rapidly takes notes)

Part of what workes for me is focusing on wanting the things that I already have. That means fully engaging in all of the relationships and frienships that i have and trying to enjoy my work and my play.

Then I find that I dont think about being single so much because I have other stuff to enjoy. I do really struggle at times but I know when that happens that i wont always hate it so much and it helps not to feel like you are always going to feel this miserable.

I also work to make sure as many of my emotional needs are met in healthy relationships as possible so that I dont have to many holes in my emotional life. Course that does not work all of the time.

Thnkfully I am in a really good place at the moment but I am not always and I know I will go throuh it again.

I have personally narrowed the stuff I miss from not having a parner down to intimacy of some knd or another and physical pleasure. The trick for me is to find another way to have these needs met then it is not such a big deal.

and then sometimes my bed just seems like the lonliest place in the universe, and there aint nuthin I can do about it.
 

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Posted by Gort (# 6855) on :
 
[Sometimes, when I cringe at seeing that sig of yours, I wonder if anyone knows it was nicked from a drunken post extolling the virtues of our very own Sine Nomine? ]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dee-nz:
[...] I have personally narrowed the stuff I miss from not having a partner down to intimacy of some kind or another and physical pleasure. The trick for me is to find another way to have these needs met then it is not such a big deal...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by josephine:
Is it? Does nouwen's friend also want to know why God has bestowed good things on her that other people lack? Does she cry all over her friends because God has unfairly granted her good health, because she never goes hungry, because her home is dry and the power is on and fresh pure water comes out of the tap at the touch of a faucet?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LatePaul:
All my older sister ever really wanted in life was to get married and have kids. Since the former hasn't happened for her, the later probably never will.

---

I really relate to this. I expected to be married by the time I was 24, and now I am approaching 30 and still single (not so old I know, but when your expectations are different it seems an age!!) I was gutted when my younger sister got married, and yet now I am in the position of her being in a unhappy marriage and her envying my single life. Bitter irony for her as she never held the same desires as me to get married.

Granted, I have lots of good things in my life. I have fantastic friends, a good job, somewhere to live, and just about enough money to get by. However, I still feel that there is something missing in my life and I wish that I had someone to go home to. I don't want to have a pity party, but there is part of me that feels extremely hard done by.

I know that the grass isn't always greener, I am not that naive. But singleness can be a very lonely place when you don't feel that it is for you!!

I have also sworn at God a lot, and like Paul W I found it most therapeutic!

Auntie Doris x

[ 09. September 2005, 08:27: Message edited by: Auntie Doris ]
 

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Posted by The Lady of the Lake (# 4347) on :
 
I find RuthW's comments on the subject both wise and sensitive. Also Late Paul's comparison of involuntary singleness with infertility is very apposite. A hobby is not the same as a relationship or a child - it's crass to say the least to try to equate them.

I'm glad some people on this thread point out that single people don't all have a 'the grass is greener over the hill' mentality. Unfortunately a lot of people seem to think we do.

Joyfulsoul, I like what you said about being a previous atheist. I was brought up in a churchgoing but not devout home, where there was no belief that God would give us partners; we have the responsibility to improve our own lives and take risks.

I wonder if the churches need to ask themselves how much damage the theology of waiting for God to provide one with a partner has been doing to Christians. It's so easy for people spend years of their adult life putting the responsibility on God and I can't help but see this often as a cover for responsibility. There needs to be people saying from the front of the church quite bluntly, it's your responsibility. Allowing people to rely on God as a celestial matchmaker is IMHO a way of fobbing off the unhappily single or those who are very fragile or unsure of themselves. It's no better than allowing worship that portrays Jesus as the individual's lover.
 

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Posted by Nutmeg (# 5297) on :
 
Lady of the Lake wrote.

quote:

---

A hobby is not the same as a relationship or a child - it's crass to say the least to try to equate them.

---

I think the most insensitive thing I have heard is the well meant suggestion that a recently widowed man in his 70's get a dog. He fumed quite openly that an animal was not going to replace a 45 year relationship. I know that is a slight tangent, but I guess it is related in that it is an insensitive suggestion that does not allow acknowledgement that there is no substitute for a life long partner. I liked reading Duo's post, because I thought it was honest without being self pitying.

I talked once with a female friend who is still single and a career diplomat. I was envying the fact that she could see the latest movie/ show/art exhibition or travel wherever she wanted. She acknowledged that yes she could, but that she found it a very selfish lifestyle, that you could do whatever you wanted really. She really wanted so much more in terms of a relationship. She is (still) attractive, intelligent, fun, thoughtful, and all the things we believe a partner will find attractive. She has not found a partner, she has adopted an asian orphan and is in the process of adopting a second.
 

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Posted by Auntie Doris (# 9433) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Nutmeg:
She has not found a partner, she has adopted an asian orphan and is in the process of adopting a second.

---

If I could financially afford to do this I would. However, being limited by circumstances it is not an option at the moment

Auntie Doris x
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Emma.:
maybe if she desperately *needs* another she needs to look at her reasons why and work on herself a bit first...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I've also had people tell me to just hang out with my platonic friends more. Ironically, these helpful hints for happiness all come from...ahem... happily married people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Emma.:
I think theres tons of blokes out there, also single, its just finding them etc etc isnt it.

---

Newsflash - I know where LOTS of them are!
.
.
.
... thirty-something and still living with Mummy.

(lest anyone accuse me of being too picky and judgemental, I have given at least two such people a chance with horrible results on both occasions - I am not talking about people caring for aged parents but domestic incompetents treating chez Mom and Dad as a free B&B)

Seriously, lots of people out there haven't grown up enough to have a proper relationship -whether that is emotionally, practical skills, or whatever. Then there's another set who have done everything to prepare themselves, and have a decent life with plenty of friendships and interests while they are waiting, but the demographics are against them.

It's a kind of paradoxical intention where we probably have to have loads of good qualities and interests and at the same time open to opportunities to meet people wherever we are, yet without being or appearing desperate, etc. etc.

I haven't talked much to Christians about being single again since I converted. One thing I did notice as an atheist is that with all the "self-help" type attitudes out there, there is quite a lot of pressure on everyone to demonstrate tangible "success" - whether that's a partner, a posh house, a high-status job, flash suits - or you are some sort of loser who didn't chant their happy mantras enough. I went to a confidence workshop recently and, whilst it gave out some very good practical tips, it also pushed this ethos of being able to achieve anything you really wanted. This is of course nonsense on toast but this hyped-up ra-ra stuff is everywhere.
 

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Posted by Nutmeg (# 5297) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I've also had people tell me to just hang out with my platonic friends more. Ironically, these helpful hints for happiness all come from...ahem... happily married people.

---

Just tell then that what a "Platonic relationship" literally is is when an older man fancies a boy or a teenager who is willing to respond, but for the sake of decency he doesn't actually bugger him.

And see how they take that.

---

Would that be from the Plato the philosopher then ken? Sorry for the digression...
 

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Posted by Zealot en vacance (# 9795) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:


But I do know from my life experience that if you're living the kind of life suggested in the New Testament - putting others first, not being obsessed with self, trying to put good things into the stream of life - you will have an amazingly attractive personality that will draw people to you. You will have lots of friends. Your friends will constantly be trying to set you up with other marvelous people they know.

But it's kind of like Peter walking on water. You can only do it if you have faith and don't think about it.

---

That is one of the best things I have read on these boards. Have faith, let go of self, seek to do what is right for the Kingdom of God, and blessings will flow, is the way I would put it. My spouse came unbidden at a time when I was both very busy, and humanly lonely. She ran her car into mine. God moves in mysterious ways ...
 

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Posted by Laura (# 10) on :
 
Look - the "get a hobby" advice isn't to suggest that married people don't have hobbies or that grieving singles don't have hobbies. It's shorthand, perhaps American shorthand, for "get over it as best you can". Look: there's a body part I'm missing that almost everyone has. I have certainly grieved for its missingness. I hate that people stare at me as much as I assume it is annoying to have waiters act all pitiful when you want a table for one (this is one of my favorite things, actually, but there you go). I cannot therefore play the piano the way my father can, as I have always wished I could, although I am musically gifted.

Anyway, my point, based on personal experience is, the best advice is to allow yourself to grieve periodically, but not overmuch, because what good does it do you? Occasional allowing yourself to feel bad honors the truth that it is sometimes sad to be alone. But don't forget to really revel in the times being uncoupled means you have great freedom to have an adventure, as will happen, too.

For those who are whacking those offering advice for being clueless -- if the OP asks for advice, we all get to give it. The OP can pick and choose. Those of us with empathy but who aren't touchy-feely don't always get it exactly right, but that doesn't mean we have nothing useful to offer. Perhaps we all can think of something that we're denied that many have. I think these situations speak to each other.

L

[ 09. September 2005, 14:15: Message edited by: Laura ]
 

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Posted by Little Miss Methodist (# 1000) on :
 
I think one of the big things with singleness is a self esteem issue.

The longer you are single, despite your best efforts, the more you are bound to start thinking "whats wrong with me"? I don't know any single person who hasn't walked down the street and looked at all the couples around and thought "look at him / her, they are no better looking than me, what do they have that I don't"?

And sometimes the answer is lower standards...

But sometimes there is no obvious answer. You can do everything right, hang out where there are plenty of single people, be attractive and funny and intelligent and there is still no guarantee that you will find someone.

And thats the thing thats most frustrating about it, I think. We can do everything right, but at the end of the day, finding the right person is a two way thing. We can only take things so far, after that it relies, to a certain extent, on luck.

And, while you hope that luck will come your way soon, each time it doesn't, and each time you see another friend pair off or get married or have children, a little part of you can't help but think "why not me, whats wrong with me"?

LMM
 

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Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
My religious experience has never exposed me to any "Lord, won'tcha buy me a new Mercedes-Benz" - or husband/wife/partner - theology. I thought we were supposed to pray for our daily bread and for forgiveness of our sins. And that He would be there to comfort us in our loneliness and despair, not necessarily take it away like we were contestants on The Bachelorette.

---

quote:

---

But I do know from my life experience that if you're living the kind of life suggested in the New Testament - putting others first, not being obsessed with self, trying to put good things into the stream of life - you will have an amazingly attractive personality that will draw people to you. You will have lots of friends. Your friends will constantly be trying to set you up with other marvelous people they know.

But it's kind of like Peter walking on water. You can only do it if you have faith and don't think about it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
But I do know from my life experience that if you're living the kind of life suggested in the New Testament - putting others first, not being obsessed with self, trying to put good things into the stream of life - you will have an amazingly attractive personality that will draw people to you. You will have lots of friends. Your friends will constantly be trying to set you up with other marvelous people they know.

But it's kind of like Peter walking on water. You can only do it if you have faith and don't think about it.

---

Balderdash! And anyone wishing to share such ideas with others (especially those in the situation of Nouwen's friends) should read Ruth's post carefully first.

So, anyone who is lonely - who does not have an amazingly attractive personality and scads of friends - has inadequate faith? Those trying to live the gospel are often taken advantage of (I don't mean in relation to romance - across the board); are the ones who everyone comes to with problems but few invite out socially; and some of the greatest saints (Jerome, for some reason, comes to mind) were rather impossible companions.

God has nothing to do with if someone has not met a spouse. Certainly, not having done so does not mean a lack of faith - and the comparison with Peter's walking on the water is an exegetical nightmare.

However, looking to live out the gospel 'wherever one is' is a good idea - because it's the only place we can meet Christ at any given moment.
 

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Posted by Laura (# 10) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:

Laura, you do obviously know a lot about grieving for something you'll never have. The thing about being single, though, is that it's not necessarily a permanent condition.

---

• I was single, living alone, till the age of 35. I had lots of boyfriends (though decreasing in number as I got older) and good female friends, but it didn't stop me longing for marriage - mainly because I longed a) for sex and b) for someone to 'belong' to.
• I got married on my 36th birthday, to a man I wasn't in love with, but with whom I had a strong and growing friendship, and because I felt a sense of calling from God to marry him. I was also on the rebound from being in love with someone who turned out to be gay. We are still married 16 years later, but it has been extremely hard work, complicated by first discovering we were sub-fertile, and then miraculously having a son, who however turned out to have a learning disability.

• Firstly, if you are a Christian woman and want your spouse to share your faith, you have to come to terms with the fact that in almost all churches, there are not enough single men to go round. And some of them are going to be gay anyway. All single women seeking church membership should be warned that it will seriously decrease their chances of marriage. Jesus told us, after all, to count the cost of discipleship.
• Secondly, both states have their struggles and sorrows. Nevertheless, the fact remains that marriage, when it works, does provide 'companionship on tap' or at the very least, 'conversation on tap' in a way singleness rarely does (this is not to say all marriages provide this, they clearly don't). If you are single and likely to remain so, you will have to make your own arrangements for this. You could house-share, or live in community (which has its own hassles), or do what I did, which is to gather a 'mini-community' of fellow singles around you. I was part, for several years, of a group of five single Christian women friends who met at least every six weeks to spend an evening chatting and praying together. It was a lifesaver.
• Thirdly, no church fellowship, community or circle of friends is going to compensate for the sexual frustration involved in celibate singleness. Or for the emotional frustration involved in a series of 'no-strings' sexual relationships, though I cannot speak from experience here (I did the celibate thing).
• Fourthly, marriage doesn't automatically guarantee sexual fulfilment. Or even sex at all. I do speak from bitter experience here.
• Ninthly - no, I'm joking. That's about all I have to say for now. Life's a bitch, innit?
• Oh, twelfthly, one more thing (as Colombo would say). Jesus, our master, was single. And I believe he had fully working genitals. Doesn't make it any easier, but makes him at least more understanding than the smug marrieds.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Paul W.:
I find the theology of swearing at God and telling him where to stick his "gift of singleness" helps quite a bit. It's theraputic anyway.

Paul W

---

The only suitable place for God's "gift of singleness" is rammed tightly up God's arse.
 

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Posted by Papio. (# 4201) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Little Miss Methodist:
And sometimes the answer is lower standards...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laura:

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:

Laura, you do obviously know a lot about grieving for something you'll never have. The thing about being single, though, is that it's not necessarily a permanent condition.

---

I'm aware that it isn't a perfect comparison. Almost nothing in life is. Even different single people have different experiences of it.

But I do think that finding a life partner is something which is substantially a matter of luck/chance. There are many things in life like that, and it's best in my experience to ride with them as much as possible, assuming that they will be permanent. Sometimes someone is surprised, of course -- a family member recently married for the first time at 58. But that doesn't change the fact that many people spend their lives single. Perhaps "get on with it" is a better formulation than "get over it", but I think we mean the same thing.

---

I'm not expecting to meet anyone ever, not even if I lower some of the above standards. Which won't happen.

I prefer "get on with it" to "get over it".

I can get on with it, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. Liking it is really a bit too much to ask.
 

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Posted by OliviaG (# 9881) on :
 
The title says "God witholding marriage." From the time I was a small child, I knew I had no desire to have children of my own, and wasn't even sure about marriage. As it turned out, I wasn't a very good spouse, and I know I would be a crappy parent. Since then, I've been happily single.

Having no spouse and no children has made me wonder what the purpose of my existence is, at least in Darwinian terms. I've discovered that I can make a difference in my community and a difference to my friends that far exceeds any good I might have accomplished as a spouse/parent - which as you can see from above, wasn't much. One of my happiest moments ever was when a friend pointed out that my volunteer work with a women's organization has probably made more of a difference to more women's lives and to my community's future than I could have accomplished in a nuclear family.

To put it in God-terms, I believe that God wanted me to do something with my life other than get married and have babies. That's why God made me so bad at it: so I wouldn't be tempted, even with all society's pressure. And I believe that God will always give me what I need - not necessarily what I want - to do God's will. If your friend honestly believes that she wants to be married, and honestly believes that God is preventing this.... well, either the time hasn't come, or one of them has to be wrong.

for both of you. Cheers, Olivia G
 

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Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Laura:
But I do think that finding a life partner is something which is substantially a matter of luck/chance.

---

You mean I can't go with the "My faith is inadequate" explanation? Rats. I was starting to like it.

I agree that some luck/chance is involved, but it's not just luck or chance -- it would almost be easier if that were the case, because then there would be no cause for self-blame. But I think my chances of finding a partner were a lot higher in my 20s, when so many people in my age cohort weren't already married; I wasn't looking then, however, and I think that choice has made a big difference in my life. The choice to live in a town where the number of college graduates is rather low is another factor. Being a Christian reduces my chances of finding a partner even though I don't require potential partners to be Christians, as a lot of people are put off by the label to begin with. (Then there's the fact that I am deeply obnoxious and have no plans to change, but perhaps there is no need to elaborate upon that. ) So I guess I'd say I think it's a combination of chance and choice.

To get back to the OP, I don't think God is holding out on me in not dropping the man of my dreams on my doorstep anymore than God was holding out on me when God didn't keep a friend of mine from dying a while back. Shit happens. Or it doesn't.
 

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Posted by NewAger (# 10347) on :
 
Thank you everyone for such well thought out posts. I am a newbie and I have been reading everyone's posts.

I am single, 35, no biological clock with a burgeoning new career. I don't have as many friends as I would like but I am quite shy and not a cliquey person. I had such a traumatic time in relationships a few years ago that I welcomed my status as what I like to refer to as a glamourous spinster! However now it is beginning to pall. I don't swear at my Higher Power. I have just got very cynical at the way Society seems to be work against older women or women who do not conform to stereotypes.

I am a Spiritualist and I am philosophical as everyone's soul's journey is different but sometimes it is very hard to be alone. Faith is meant to be a great comfort but even if you believe in Spirit, Guardian Angels, God/Divine Light/Higher Power/whatever, you can communicate with Spirit, it's no comfort sometimes when you long for a nice boyfriend to take the edge off the London commuting lifestyle.

My guardian angel appears to want me to learn to love myself before I can love anyone else or indeed they love me! 12 steppers have this great phrase, 'God only gives you what you can handle'. Perhaps I would crap up a relationship if I met 'Mr Right' or 'Mr Right Now'.

I wish your friend the best of luck.
 

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Posted by Joyfulsoul (# 4652) on :
 
Welcome to the ship, New Ager and what a lovely first post! I really resonate with what you wrote, particularly about sorting one's self out. Perhaps that is partly why I don't really hold God accountable or to blame for my lack of partnership. I have a lot of issues to work out at the moment, these are my issues - these are not God's fault. Most of all, I want to learn about being in content in every circumstance. I've seen people who has suffered a great deal in this life and still see good things and I really admire them.
 

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Posted by NewAger (# 10347) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joyfulsoul:
Welcome to the ship, New Ager and what a lovely first post! I really resonate with what you wrote, particularly about sorting one's self out. Perhaps that is partly why I don't really hold God accountable or to blame for my lack of partnership. I have a lot of issues to work out at the moment, these are my issues - these are not God's fault. Most of all, I want to learn about being in content in every circumstance. I've seen people who has suffered a great deal in this life and still see good things and I really admire them.

---

Thank you for your kind words says lonely Spiritualist home on a Friday night
 

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Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

But I do know from my life experience that if you're living the kind of life suggested in the New Testament - putting others first, not being obsessed with self, trying to put good things into the stream of life - you will have an amazingly attractive personality that will draw people to you. You will have lots of friends. Your friends will constantly be trying to set you up with other marvelous people they know.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Anselmina:
Great. So not only am I alone and partnerless, but I've only got myself to blame because I never put others first, I'm obsessed with myself, contribute nothing good 'into the stream of life' and consequently have an amazingly unattractive personality.

Wondered where I was going wrong. Think I'll get me to a nunnery.

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Originally posted by Laura:
... or similar.

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Originally posted by RuthW:
Comparing single people who pray for partners to contestants on a reality TV show is appallingly dismissive.

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So if people who want partners and don't have them it's because their faith is weak? Because they aren't good New Testament Christians?

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

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Originally posted by RuthW:
Comparing single people who pray for partners to contestants on a reality TV show is appallingly dismissive.

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I see no difference between praying for a partner or praying for a Mercedes-Benz. So yes, it was dismissive. It was meant to be dismissive.

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So if people who want partners and don't have them it's because their faith is weak? Because they aren't good New Testament Christians?

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Has your life experience shown you that people who put others first, who aren't obsessed with self, and try to put good things into the stream of life don't have amazingly attractive personalities that draw people to them?

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I pretty much said what I meant and meant what I said. I made no comment on their faith or lack thereof.

But if you want to go in that direction, I guess people who are praying for partners and don't get them would assume it was their lack of faith. But as I said above I personally don't think one should be praying for much more than the stuff listed in the Lord's Prayer...for oneself.

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Originally posted by RuthW:
Because having a relationship with another human being is so just so much like owning a luxury automobile.

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There are plenty of people who attract others very easily who don't seem to be living the sort of life the New Testament asks us to live. There isn't even a strong correlation, never mind a causal link.

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I think you're wrong. If I don't take the deepest desires of my heart to God, I'm not giving God a chance to influence what they are or to tell me anything about them.

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I'm waiting for the sunshine crew to tell you guys it's probably because you're butt-ugly and you ought to stop kidding yourselves and dedicate your lives to lepers or similar.

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Or chaplaincy duty on the Ship. [Sigh] It's a tough job...but someone's got to do it.
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 66) on :
 
I guess I'm trying to be too serious for Purgatory, being unfamiliar with the neighborhood, so let me say that I just checked the Prayers for Family and Personal Life section of the BCP and did not find a prayer entitled For Finding a Boyfriend. I did however find one For Those Who Live Alone.
 

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Posted by Papio. (# 4201) on :
 
Right. I only care about myself and everyone hates me. That's why I don't have a girlfriend.

My goodness, Sine. What a helpful perspective.

Just a pity that it is wrong.
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 66) on :
 

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Originally posted by Papio.:
Just a pity that it is wrong.

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There's incessant kvetching, vindictive paranoia, tiresome self-pity, self-rationalization, bragging, fear, confusion...

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That about sums up my prayer life.
Well, not really, there are also moments of reflection, remorse, thankfulness, concern/joy/praise for others, etc.

YMMV, but for me, it seems unproductive not to present God with the selfish desires I have, since God knows I have them anyway.

In any case, I totally agree with Ruth's description of the dynamic of prayer. As Lewis said(somewhere), "I don't pray because it changes God, I pray because it changes me." If you hold stuff back--even stuff that might be labeled whiny or selfish-- that stuff may not get changed.

Or maybe it will, who knows? I'm just playing it safe.
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 66) on :
 
I personally think a lot of the psalms are weird as shit. I once read that the Book of Psalms is a hymnal, and like all hymnals has good hymns, mediocre hymns, and really rotten hymns. So I don't mind feeling some of them are creepy. To me the point is "not my will but yours be done".

I do bring before God whatever has happened or I've felt strongly about for good or bad that day. But I try and make it about how I feel rather than what I want. "I am lonely, God" rather than "I want a partner, God." I have a track record that proves I don't know what's best for me. I cannot run my life well. It's much better for me not to try at this point, I promise you.

My comment about "charming" was not in the context of the New Testament but rather secularly about giving the impression you're interested in other people. I'm sorry I didn't make that clear. As to the New Testament in general, I said that it encourages us to think of others before we think of ourselves. Do you disagree that it says that? And do you disagree that people who think of others before themselves are generally thought to be attractive to be around? I think you're reading more than I meant into what I said, but then it's my fault for not being clearer.

I guess I could come up with some anecdotal examples to counter your anecdotal example of your holy single gentleman friend, but the whole discussion is pretty much personal opinion anyway.

If you find what you're currently doing works for you, that's the important thing. Trying to run my life wasn't working for me, so I'm attempting something different.
 

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Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
We all have a track record that proves we don't know what's best for us. If we didn't, we'd be doing God's will all the time. I don't think we're all that far apart in our thinking, Sine. If "I want this, but I'm not asking for it because that is the road to thinking I can run my own life" works for you, then of course that's what you should do. I have found that for me, not saying what I want is the road to shutting God out of my life and thinking I can run it on my own. Sometimes I only learn how pathetically selfish and greedy and misguided I am by asking God for what I want.

quote:

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As to the New Testament in general, I said that it encourages us to think of others before we think of ourselves. Do you disagree that it says that? And do you disagree that people who think of others before themselves are generally thought to be attractive to be around? I think you're reading more than I meant into what I said, but then it's my fault for not being clearer.

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But I do know from my life experience that if you're living the kind of life suggested in the New Testament - putting others first, not being obsessed with self, trying to put good things into the stream of life - you will have an amazingly attractive personality that will draw people to you. You will have lots of friends. Your friends will constantly be trying to set you up with other marvelous people they know.

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I can't argue with what your life experience has been, but I will put forward the idea that living the kind of life suggested in the New Testament does not necessarily win friends and influence people. Jesus must have had an amazingly attractive personality, but I'll bet he was deeply lonely, too. And his friends were annoying, and they deserted him in his last hours.
 

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Posted by NewAger (# 10347) on :
 
As far as I am aware, and this is coming from a distant memory of a Church of England childhood, Jesus did not expect us to censor our prayers. Everyone's prayers are an individual thing.

Any other 12 steppers out there will recognise the phrase 'put your worries in the hands of the Higher Power'.

As for the art of attraction of the opposite sex, it's all about confidence and being a positive person as far as I can tell. Unfortunately I am neither
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 66) on :
 

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Originally posted by RuthW:
Sometimes I only learn how pathetically selfish and greedy and misguided I am by asking God for what I want.

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quote:

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I will put forward the idea that living the kind of life suggested in the New Testament does not necessarily win friends and influence people. Jesus must have had an amazingly attractive personality, but I'll bet he was deeply lonely, too. And his friends were annoying, and they deserted him in his last hours.

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I guess you have higher standards than I do. I wasn't really thinking of the big guys like St. Paul and Jesus. I was thinking more along the lines of say, Grits, who if she wasn't already married you'd be trying to fix her up with all your better single men friends because she's just so nice to be around due to the way she tries to live out her beliefs.
 

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Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
If I had "better" single men friends, I wouldn't be having this instructive (to me, at any rate) conversation with you on a Friday night, Sine! Not to wish misfortune upon Mr. Grits, but if Grits ever comes back on the market, she might be old enough for my single gentleman friend. So I do see your point.

People don't try to set me up with guys they think I might like. They do look at me quizzically and ask why a wonderful person like me isn't married. Next time it happens, I'll tell them it's because they haven't set me up with the man I'm meant to marry.
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 66) on :
 
I realized in reviewing this thread that my comment about St. Peter, walking on water, and faith, wasn't about faith in God so much as "don't look down while you're walking on water or you'll fall in".

Which is to say, there is a paradox in being selfless in order to get something for yourself. Kinda like being proud of one's humility.

But the OP seemed to me to be about where is God if you're single and don't want to be that way. I have to think that for a religious person the answer has to be "God knows better than you what you need or don't need." If I were religious I don't think I'd have to like it, but I think I'd have to accept it. Because if I don't accept it I'm saying I know better than God. And that's stupid. I don't.

If you're not religious it can just be bad luck or something random. Alignment of the planets. Easier in a way than if it appears to be something that's being withheld by a Supreme Being who is reputed to love you.

But you never really know what was ultimately good or bad in your life until the very end, when you see how it all turned out.

Cold comfort however when you've got an empty bed now.
 

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Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
But the OP seemed to me to be about where is God if you're single and don't want to be that way. I have to think that for a religious person the answer has to be "God knows better than you what you need or don't need." If I were religious I don't think I'd have to like it, but I think I'd have to accept it. Because if I don't accept it I'm saying I know better than God. And that's stupid. I don't.

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Originally posted by RuthW:
Still, there's the parable of the unjust judge.

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Two lessons are drawn via the argument from the lesser to the greater: if the persistent pleading of the helpless widow triumphs over an unjust judge, how much more will the persistent praying of Christian disciples achieve; if an unjust judge yields to the entreaties of a widow, how much more will a gracious God.

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
But the OP seemed to me to be about where is God if you're single and don't want to be that way. I have to think that for a religious person the answer has to be "God knows better than you what you need or don't need." If I were religious I don't think I'd have to like it, but I think I'd have to accept it. Because if I don't accept it I'm saying I know better than God. And that's stupid. I don't.

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Originally posted by nouwen:
[...] However, where does marriage for my friend fit in? What if she fails to find fulfilment in 'single' life but is never married. What if, deep within she knowns that her life needs to be joined with another, but that 'other' never comes along. What theology helps this?

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

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Originally posted by Papio.:
Just a pity that it is wrong.

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Since this is Purgatory, the home of reasoned debate, I get to ask you "wrong in what way".

You may well be extremely disagreeable for all I know.

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Originally posted by Papio.:
Why haven't I got a girlfriend? Because I am not that good looking, because until recently I had little self-confidence. No, that wasn't because everyone hated me, either, Sine.

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In my opinion the most ugly man in the world is Woody Allen, yet he has been associated with a stream of beautiful women for all of his life. Don't fall for the "sorry loser" act that he adopts in his films. In reality he is very talented, highly successful and deeply desirable to many women.

I have no idea what you look like in real life, but you cannot possibly be any uglier than Woody Allen. In that case, rejoice, a stream of beautiful women are completely within your grasp. As far as I am concerned you are good looking enough. Work on that self-confidence and go for it!

Neil
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 66) on :
 
Ahem...well, you know, being overly sensitive and being quick to take offense where none is meant possibly aren't the world's most attractive qualities either.

In any case, I'm going to post what I just wrote in a PM because I obviously did a piss-poor job of explaining where I was coming from with this.

What I said, or was trying to say, was not that if you don't have a partner you're not nice. But rather that if you work at not putting yourself first, on being genuinely interested in other people more than you are in yourself, good things will come back to you. It's kind of a "letting go" thing. If you don't look for it, you'll find it. It's a paradox but a generally true one I think.

I do think spending too much time and emotional energy on what I want or what I don't have is counter-productive. If I am out there with my focus on other people and what I can do for them I'm just going to be a better all round person. I'll be a happier person too, because I truly believe real happiness comes from what I do for others. It makes me feel so much better about myself. And being relaxed and feeling good about myself will draw other people to me. And I can't get either of those feelings if I'm concentrating on me.

Now, don't ask me how well or how consistently I do all this, or I'll have to kill you.

Now I'm going back to Hell and stay there.
 

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Posted by Esmeralda (# 582) on :
 
No, the ugliest man in the world is John Mortimer. It was a blessing his father was blind and did not have to see him. However, he too has had affairs with, and married, some gorgeous women. Either he's very charming, or he's got the secret of some very powerful love potion.

Woody Allen, OTOH, has very sexy mournful eyes, a lovely Jewish nose, and a generally attractive face shape. Which simply goes to show that attractiveness is deeply subjective (I typed 'suggestive' at first, that may also be true).

In the case of both men, power and fame have got to be part of the mix. But I wouldn't sleep with Johnny Vegas however rich and powerful he got.

Of course there are some absolute standards of beauty. Regularity, symmetry and proportionality of features, for instance. But culture and personal feelings (and experience) make the edges of what is attractive so fuzzy, that almost anyone can find someone else who finds them attractive - if they're lucky enough to meet someone.
 

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Posted by Papio. (# 4201) on :
 

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Ahem...well, you know, being overly sensitive and being quick to take offense where none is meant possibly aren't the world's most attractive qualities either.

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Point taken.

It is something I need to work on, isn't it?

Thanks for the PM.

[ 10. September 2005, 13:49: Message edited by: Papio. ]
 

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Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 

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Originally posted by Esmeralda:
No, the ugliest man in the world is John Mortimer.

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I say Lyle Lovett.
 

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Posted by Joan_of_Quark (# 9887) on :
 
Physical attraction for me tends to grow over time. Sometimes I am attracted to a person when I first meet them but my longest and/or least grim relationships have NOT included that, however over a pretty short space of time they become irresistible because of who they are and our shared history. I suspect that for those of us who are not uniformly conventionally gorgeous things like getting to know the other person as a person (radical concept, huh? ) rather than trying to show off at speed-dating events is probably going to pay dividends.
 

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Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :
 
In defense of the ugly, the insufficiently selfless, the othewise f*****-up whose loneliness would seem to be, according to the theology I've heard expressed here, a function of the Old Testament YHWH's punishing them for not being good enough to deserve a relationship...I think longing for a meaningful, committed connection to another human being is a powerful affirmation of one's essential humanity. Anyone who didn't feel this longing on some level I'd find damned frightening. So, Sine's posts to the contrary, perhaps we're not completely damaged goods.

For the record, and speaking to the OP, I don't ascribe to a God who dispenses favors like a gumball machine. But -- if you can't shamelessly kvetch to God...to whom else?
 

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Posted by Auntie Doris (# 9433) on :
 

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Originally posted by Faithful Sheepdog:
[QB] In my opinion the most ugly man in the world is Woody Allen, yet he has been associated with a stream of beautiful women for all of his life. /QB]

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Just reminds me of the Mrs Merton interview with Debbie McGee when she said

"So tell me Debbie, what attracted you to millionaire Paul Daniels?"



Auntie Doris x
 

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Posted by Joan_of_Quark (# 9887) on :
 

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Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I think longing for a meaningful, committed connection to another human being is a powerful affirmation of one's essential humanity. Anyone who didn't feel this longing on some level I'd find damned frightening.

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What she said!

The times of my life I didn't feel that, I probably was "damned frightening" - imagine a Valkyrie-sized person possessed of the even temper of an OT prophet in one of their more vengeful moments, and stand well back...of course, this was due to being hurt repeatedly, not that anyone was going to get near enough to check.

In my vast experience of Christianity, like nearly 3 months now , I think it's just fine occasionally to mention to God that I would kind of like someone to love, in that way, preferably one who doesn't let me down too badly this time. It would only be as crass and just plain silly as praying for a Merc if I prayed for someone with the looks of Andy Garcia && the brain of Albert Einstein && Bill Gates's money, etc etc.
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 66) on :
 

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Originally posted by LutheranChik:
So, Sine's posts to the contrary, perhaps we're not completely damaged goods.

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Originally posted by Grits:
I hope that Papio and others who truly desire to find a partner realize that you sometimes have to crush a lot of coal to make a diamond, and whether you be the crusher or the crushee, the end result can last a liftime.

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I am not certain what you mean. Sorry.
 

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Posted by Gort (# 6855) on :
 
I think it means you have to kiss a lot of frogs before your lips blister.
 

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Posted by Grits (# 4169) on :
 
Don't be sorry! I just meant that finding a partner can involve "process" -- whatever you choose that to mean. You can look at it as being with lots of people, weeding them out, discerning which qualities are important to you, etc. Or you can view it as finding someone who is close to "right", and refining the relationship to determine if it can go the distance. Of course, you may be the one on the receiving end of all this, as well!

I would love to be a matchmaker. Don't get me wrong -- I celebrate singlehood (and Lord knows I'd love to be celebrating it firsthand on occasion!), but my heart really goes out to those who truly desire to be part of a couple. I don't think it has anything to do with "God's will". Sometimes, it's just the luck of the draw. However, God's will can be shown in how we use whatever life we have, even if it's not what we would desire for ourselves. So, even though my heart's in Paris, my bod's in the kitchen, and I just make the best of it that I can.
 

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Posted by Alogon (# 5513) on :
 

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Originally posted by nouwen:
where does marriage for my friend fit in? What if she fails to find fulfilment in 'single' life but is never married. What if, deep within she knowns that her life needs ot be joined with another, but that 'other' never comes along. What theology helps this?

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She needs to read When Bad Things Happen to Good People.

The premise of this thread's title, that her loneliness and frustration are God's doing, is the problem. It's very clear from the Bible that close human relationships are the will of God.

On the other hand, I am glad to hear it suggested (at long last) that singleness is or can be a gift. The melody of the spiritual song "It's a gift to be single, it's a gift to be free" is playing in my head right now. Oh, wait-- shouldn't that be "a gift to be simple?" No matter: it's a Shaker song. Do you know who the Shakers were? I suspect that almost anyone would find me very hard to live with. I often find myself hard to live with. The New Testament does not oblige us to pair off-- rather the contrary, if anything.

Even while she seeks a partner, there is certainly nothing wrong with counting her blessings. Without doing so, she is liable to h rush into a commitment that she will live to regret.

One of my friends married late and, in the middle of raising two children whom he loves very much, his wife against his will initiated the nastiest divorce I've ever heard about. He's still suffering. That's the way too many marriages end. It gives one pause.
 

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Posted by MaryFL (# 7482) on :
 
I think there are two issues here.

One is, it would be nice to have a spouse to share your life with. The other issue is with marriage being "the norm." Just look at the way people look at others who are over thirty and not married. It becomes obvious (to them) that there must be something wrong with you. This, to me, is annoying. Doesn't annoy me enough, obviously, to rush into a commitment with the first person I find, but I wish people would stop treating singles like they're incomplete persons until such time as they get married.
 

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Posted by NewAger (# 10347) on :
 

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Originally posted by MaryFL:
I think there are two issues here.

One is, it would be nice to have a spouse to share your life with. The other issue is with marriage being "the norm." Just look at the way people look at others who are over thirty and not married. It becomes obvious (to them) that there must be something wrong with you. This, to me, is annoying. Doesn't annoy me enough, obviously, to rush into a commitment with the first person I find, but I wish people would stop treating singles like they're incomplete persons until such time as they get married.

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Originally posted by Laura:
But let's face it -- being ugly works better for men than women. A man can be uglier than dirt, old, fat and have a ferocious comb-over and still be surrounded by gorgeous women, assuming a certain number of other sterling qualities.

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Doesn't have to be sterling, could be dollars, yen, euros...


 

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Posted by Spiffy da Wonder Sheep (# 5267) on :
 

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Originally posted by MaryFL:
The other issue is with marriage being "the norm." Just look at the way people look at others who are over thirty and not married. It becomes obvious (to them) that there must be something wrong with you.

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It's also an issue for those of us what aren't yet thirty but don't 'date' (which, of course, means going out to bars and taking random strangers home for a test drive). Thanks, but I don't see anything wierd in making a pot of soup for my friends on a Saturday night instead of getting sloshed and stupid with someone.

(By the way, anyone who wants minestrone soup, be at my house in about an hour )

[ 10. September 2005, 23:59: Message edited by: Spiffy da Wonder Sheep ]
 

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Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
What I said, or was trying to say, was not that if you don't have a partner you're not nice. But rather that if you work at not putting yourself first, on being genuinely interested in other people more than you are in yourself, good things will come back to you. It's kind of a "letting go" thing. If you don't look for it, you'll find it. It's a paradox but a generally true one I think.

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"Good things" might or might not include finding a partner. If you meant the "it" we're to give up looking for and thus find to be a partner, you're wrong; this is not generally true. Sometimes it does happen. But letting go and not looking for a partner does not necessarily mean you'll find one. Plenty of people on this thread, including me, can testify to that.

Sine, the more I think about it, the more what you're saying on this thread strikes me as some kind of social version of a prosperity gospel. Put others first, be genuinely interested in others (or at least give that impression), don't be self-absorbed, and good things will come to you. Except it just isn't automatically true. There are loads of good people out there doing just that who are getting chewed up and spit out by life. If everyone else was healthy and well-adjusted, what you say would be true. But they aren't. Sometimes there is absolutely no reward at all, at least not in this life, for doing the right thing and caring about others enough to put them first.

And comparing the Psalms to Wonder, Love and Praise? Please.
 

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Posted by Laura (# 10) on :
 

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Originally posted by RuthW:
Sometimes there is absolutely no reward at all, at least not in this life, for doing the right thing and caring about others enough to put them first.

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What if, deep within she knowns that her life needs ot be joined with another, but that 'other' never comes along. What theology helps this?

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Originally posted by Laura:
I'm familiar with this as "God is My Micromanager" theology. ("He meant me to miss that highway exit!")

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Firstly, if you are a Christian woman and want your spouse to share your faith, you have to come to terms with the fact that in almost all churches, there are not enough single men to go round. And some of them are going to be gay anyway.

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All single women seeking church membership should be warned that it will seriously decrease their chances of marriage. Jesus told us, after all, to count the cost of discipleship.

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If you are single and likely to remain so, you will have to make your own arrangements for this. You could house-share, or live in community (which has its own hassles), or do what I did, which is to gather a 'mini-community' of fellow singles around you.

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Originally posted by josephine:

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Originally posted by Duo Seraphim*:
I understand nouwen's friend to be feeling that particular lack, that there is a good that God has bestowed on others - someone to be their partner and to share their life - that He has denied her. And then it is reasonable to ask why.

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Is it? Does nouwen's friend also want to know why God has bestowed good things on her that other people lack? Does she cry all over her friends because God has unfairly granted her good health, because she never goes hungry, because her home is dry and the power is on and fresh pure water comes out of the tap at the touch of a faucet?

Why do we act as if God owes us an explanation when we don't get what we want, but accept the things we want without a second thought?

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Has your life experience shown you that people who put others first, who aren't obsessed with self, and try to put good things into the stream of life don't have amazingly attractive personalities that draw people to them?

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Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Has your life experience shown you that people who put others first, who aren't obsessed with self, and try to put good things into the stream of life don't have amazingly attractive personalities that draw people to them?

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The problem with that theory is that reduces the whole marriage / singleness issue down to merit. People with amazing personalities that draw others to them get married, those without them don’t. I Think Not. And I can't think of a situation where you could seriously suggest that to someone in conversation where you wouldn't get a smack round the face. What you’re implying is that someone is single because they’re not a nice person.

Much of it comes down to being in the right place at the right time. (In my case, in front of the now husband in a toilet queue at a party )

It's also an issue that people have to deal with in their own way. In my case, deciding to pray for contentment with what I had helped. I also told God that either he had two choices - either take the desire for a husband and family away or hurry up and provide one. But part of the reason for doing that was purely selfish - I thought that life would be more fun if I focussed on what I had rather than what I didn't. But that isn't something that would work for everyone. And reducing what was a long process of getting past it into a few sentences makes it sound much easier than it was.

Tubbs
 

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Posted by I_am_not_Job (# 3634) on :
 
Why don't we set up a Ship of Fools dating agency?

All I can say is from my own experience a partner comes up when you least expect it. I'd made a silly vow that I wouldn't date anyone ever again until I met the person I would marry. The next day I met this bloke who was ostensibly the complete opposite of what I thought I was looking for in a bloke and he somehow persuaded me to go out with him and a year later we were married.

OK, sickening I know but let your friend cry her tears when she needs to but then get on with life.
 

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Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
The Ship actually has a pretty good matching record. How many weddings has it been responsible for now? At least 10, I think.
 

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Posted by Joan_of_Quark (# 9887) on :
 
On the one hand, we have people saying Christianity is a great way of staying single forever if you're female (even if you don't want to) and on the other, matches apparently made on SoF. OK, I know SoF is NOT a church. But what's going on here? Is it the female:male ratio, are non-Christian men reluctant to date Christian women, do Christian women ALL have to start wearing socks and sandals after a certain amount of time in the faith ?
 

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Posted by Auntie Doris (# 9433) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gill H:
The Ship actually has a pretty good matching record. How many weddings has it been responsible for now? At least 10, I think.

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Originally posted by Gill H:
The Ship actually has a pretty good matching record. How many weddings has it been responsible for now? At least 10, I think.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Catrine:
Who have met their spouses through SoF? (Sorry to be nosey, but I'm intrigued)

---

quote:

---

Is it the female:male ratio

---

quote:

---

are non-Christian men reluctant to date Christian women

---

Quite a few do, but some resent women who stick to their faith.
Then there are ex-Christian men who do not want to touch Christian women with a bargepole, and ditto for ex-Christian women re: Christian men.
I would never tell women they should only date Christian men though. Plenty of Christian women have good relationships with men who are 'nominally' Christian.

quote:

---

do Christian women ALL have to start wearing socks and sandals after a certain amount of time in the faith ?

---

Why not just the sandals ?
 

---

Posted by Esmeralda (# 582) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Lady of the Lake:

quote:

---

do Christian women ALL have to start wearing socks and sandals after a certain amount of time in the faith ?

---

Why not just the sandals ?

---

Yes, they definitely shouldn't have socks before marriage
 

---

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joan_of_Quark:
On the one hand, we have people saying Christianity is a great way of staying single forever if you're female (even if you don't want to) and on the other, matches apparently made on SoF. OK, I know SoF is NOT a church. But what's going on here? Is it the female:male ratio, are non-Christian men reluctant to date Christian women

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Lady of the Lake:
I would never tell women they should only date Christian men though. Plenty of Christian women have good relationships with men who are 'nominally' Christian.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Lady of the Lake:
[QUOTE]Plenty of people of both sexes have issues to work through in the churches. It's easy just to think women are all doing okay, and it's easy to kid oneself aboutthat, IMHO.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Esmeralda:
they definitely shouldn't have socks before marriage [/QB]

---

Aha, maybe that's what I'm doing wrong! I get cold feet, you see. (And got cold feet about marriage on more than one occasion )

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
In my limited experience its because most Christian women are reluctant to have anything to do with Christian men...

---

That sounds like a challenge ... now where DID I put my bargepole?!
 

---

Posted by Papio. (# 4201) on :
 
In case ken is correct, I would like to point out to any eligible and involuntarily single hetrosexual Christian women (aged 21-35) that I am friendly towards Christians but am not myself a Christian....


 

---

Posted by josephine (# 3899) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tubbs:
Stuff like this makes me want to spit in the speaker's eye:

quote:

---

Originally posted by josephine:
Why do we act as if God owes us an explanation when we don't get what we want, but accept the things we want without a second thought?

---

---

Sorry you feel that way, Tubbs. I had seriously overdosed on Katrina news last week, among other things, and was feeling angry and uncharitable when I read the OP.

Nouwen asked for a theological answer to her friend's problem. Since I didn't say it particularly well the first time, I'll try again. The theological answer is that you don't always get what you want. Not only that, but you don't always get what you deserve. Solomon himself said that the fastest person doesn't always win the race. Likewise, the most lovely, most gracious, most charming person doesn't always get a spouse. As my father always said, life's not fair; get used to it. Solomon said time and chance happen to everyone.

Life is difficult. It hurts. Bad things happen. And good things happen, too. Sometimes the good things and bad things that happen are the consequences of choices you've made -- you got an A because you studied hard; you got an F because you didn't turn in any homework all semester.

But many times, most times perhaps, the good things you get are not the result of anything you've done; you didn't get them because you are better than anyone else, or worked harder, or had more faith, or because God loves you more. Same with the bad things -- they're not because of anything you've done or failed to do, not a result of a lack of faith, not because God hates you or is holding back on you. They just happen.

That's not an easy answer to accept, I know. But it's the answer that I believe is true.
 

---

Posted by andrew1066 (# 10360) on :
 
hello, I am new to S-o-F and this is my first posting
what Josephine just posted makes sense to me
I have been both happily and unhappily married, and unhappily and happily single, which I now am.
A question that occurs to me time and time again is:
How do the couple create, enter into, solemnize (call it what you will) a marriage that is valid in the eyes of God-&-the-Church?
I am not asking how to create a marriage that is valid according to [English, or any other earthly jurisdiction] law.
What exactly do the couple need to
DO? and
INTEND? and
PROMISE?
What is necessary and sufficient to the creation of a theologically valid marriage?
(apart from the confetti of course)
 

---

Posted by corvette (# 9436) on :
 
welcome andrew


rats, so the confetti *was* important after all, that explains everything. Ain't hindsight wonderful?
 

---

Posted by Ms Lilith (# 1767) on :
 
Hi andrew1066 I think maybe 'theologically what makes a marriage" would be a good thread of it's own. I nearly derailed this one with an anecdote and some thoughts.

So about singleness… I am 28 and single because

• I don’t pick up men in tacky bars or go to tacky bars (I understand that people out there meet that way)
• I wont go anywhere where there might be Christian men looking for a Christian wife (suspicious of speed dating at Greenbelt)
• Most of the people I meet through my friends are couples
• I cant flirt
• I don’t want a man who isn’t as clever as me and the men Ive met have liked their women to be a teeny bit less clever than them
• The first thing people say when they meet new people is "so what do you do?" and I have had to confess to working for a Christian charity and men back away thinking "get away from me you freak"
• I like my space, in my head and in my flat, so I don’t try hard enough

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ms Lilith:
the men Ive met have liked their women to be a teeny bit less clever than them

---

Really?

Methinks you may just have met dorky men.
 

---

Posted by Rat (# 3373) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio.:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ms Lilith:
the men Ive met have liked their women to be a teeny bit less clever than them

---

Really?

---

quote:

---

Well, obviously you want a girlfriend who's intelligent, successful and funny. As long as she's not quite as intelligent, successful or funny as you.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ms Lilith:
So about singleness… I am 28 and single because

• I don’t pick up men in tacky bars or go to tacky bars (I understand that people out there meet that way)
• I wont go anywhere where there might be Christian men looking for a Christian wife (suspicious of speed dating at Greenbelt)
• Most of the people I meet through my friends are couples
• I cant flirt

<snipped a couple out>

• I like my space, in my head and in my flat, so I don’t try hard enough

---

Yep, that's pretty much the list of reasons why I'm currently single as well. Except I'm not 28 yet. And reverse the usage of "men" and "women" .
 

---

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
Hmmm...

getting a bit personal here I suppose. But a few months ago I realised that if I looked back over the last 30 years or so & added together women I had had some sort of relationship with (including ones that lasted little more than an evening), the count was now just about into two figures. Which isn't exactly a statistical sample but is enough to do 5-bar gates with. So I wrote down on a piece of paper some characteristics

And found (amongst some rather less expected things) that just about all these people had had better educational qualifications than me, and that one thing they nearly all had in common was being very clever.

Of course that leaves open the question of whether I am more likely to fancy brainy women or they are more likely to fancy me... general observation that it is usually women who decide these things would make it likely that the latter is true.

There is certainly some sorting by education going on. In my age group about 1 person in 10 in the UK has a university degree. Amongst current twenty-somethings its more like a third. Say 1 in 5 is a good average. If it was at random the chance of 10 consecutive close encounters (of whatever kind) being with someone who had a degree would be 1:5^10 which is about 1 in a million. (And yes I know that educational acheivement is a very bad proxy for being clever, and I know that the real odds are a lot less than that because there are class, employment, and geographical issues to consider. )

So my own personal experience from a sample of one (i.e. me) is that intelligence is no barrier. Quite the opposite in fact...
 

---

Posted by The Lady of the Lake (# 4347) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ken:

In my limited experience its because most Christian women are reluctant to have anything to do with Christian men...

---

quote:

---

Presumably they include all the women who come to church on their own, or with their children and no bloke, giving the place the impression of being full of single women when it isn't really? (or at least not single and interested ones anyway)

---

Maybe this depends on the church ? The women I'm referring to are ones who are married, remarried or repartnered to or going out with 'nominal' or non-Christian men. I'd be interested to know what some people in those relationships think of the theology of God giving or withholding a partner.

People I've known who've done evening classes have been pretty normal and well-adjusted. Maybe this is because people who like learning languages tend to be sociable and well-adjusted in the first place, and are learning languages in order to communicate with other people.
 

---

Posted by Rat (# 3373) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Lady of the Lake:
People I've known who've done evening classes have been pretty normal and well-adjusted.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
Hmmm...

getting a bit personal here I suppose. But a few months ago I realised that if I looked back over the last 30 years or so & added together women I had had some sort of relationship with (including ones that lasted little more than an evening), the count was now just about into two figures. Which isn't exactly a statistical sample but is enough to do 5-bar gates with. So I wrote down on a piece of paper some characteristics

And found (amongst some rather less expected things) that just about all these people had had better educational qualifications than me, and that one thing they nearly all had in common was being very clever.

Of course that leaves open the question of whether I am more likely to fancy brainy women or they are more likely to fancy me... general observation that it is usually women who decide these things would make it likely that the latter is true.

There is certainly some sorting by education going on. In my age group about 1 person in 10 in the UK has a university degree. Amongst current twenty-somethings its more like a third. Say 1 in 5 is a good average. If it was at random the chance of 10 consecutive close encounters (of whatever kind) being with someone who had a degree would be 1:5^10 which is about 1 in a million. (And yes I know that educational acheivement is a very bad proxy for being clever, and I know that the real odds are a lot less than that because there are class, employment, and geographical issues to consider. )

So my own personal experience from a sample of one (i.e. me) is that intelligence is no barrier. Quite the opposite in fact...

---

Ken, if only I'd met you when I was single! I suppose I might have not found you brainy enough, but I don't get that impression from your many posts. And our politics might have agreed admirably..

Alas, now it is too late.

I find pretty strange that people won't go where there are Christians looking for Christian partner. There were few enough of them around in my day, that if Christian Connection had existed then, I'd definitely have joined!

Of course you meet the odd dork/axe murderer (all right, there aren't that many Christian axe murderers about, but there are plenty who look and behave like one). But you have to take your chances, or you'll never meet anyone!

It would be interesting to do a poll of how people met their partners, Christian or not. I met mine at a Christian conference, where I'd gone to run workshops on feminism! (and I thought he was a complete dork at first, and for a considerable time after that).
 

---

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
I've heard it said that generally speaking, intelligent women look for partners who are their equals or betters in intelligence; for men this factor is not nearly so important. (Yes, it's a generalization.)

It was from some kind of study done years ago, and was invoked to explain why (at least in the U.S.) a single woman's chances of marrying decrease with each additional degree she earns, but it is not so for a man. If women normally marry "equally or up," their potential partner pool is smaller than that of similarly educated men, who often choose to marry "down."

From my own experience, I'd say there's something in it. I've met quite a few never married female PhDs and relatively few males. And I've certainly experienced the stereotypical male reaction to my intelligence and / or degree. (Everything from a high school boyfriend's anger when I earned a higher grade in biology, to being told by a grad student that "I had a mind like a man"--he couldn't understand why I got pissed off at his lovely little compliment--to having my past boss use the phrase "intelligent women" as a swear word.)

I got fed up and refused to hide my light under a bushel. Fortunately, I met a lovely man who was actually PROUD of having an educated and intelligent wife. (he brags about me )

Obviously, not all Western men are like this. But quite a few are. Maybe that explains why I had to marry outside my own culture to find a secure one.
 

---

Posted by Papio. (# 4201) on :
 
Rat - I know men who actively want their women to be slightly less intelligent than themselves as well. I even know a few men who actively want their girlfriend to be dense.

I also know men, such as myself, who would like their girlfriend to be roughly on a par intellectually with themselves. Slightly brighter or less bright is fine. Significantly brighter or less bright is not. But, basically, the same level is ideal.

Have to say that I haven't met many men who want a much brighter female partner, though.....
 

---

Posted by Papio. (# 4201) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I've heard it said that generally speaking, intelligent women look for partners who are their equals or betters in intelligence; for men this factor is not nearly so important. (Yes, it's a generalization.

---

This is probably true, although also a generalisation, as you say. Intelligence, or the lack of it, is a significant factor for when deciding whether or not to date a given female.

Ideally (and I stress ideally), I would like my gf to have a 2:1 or 1st class honours degree*, to be well read, to be articulate, to be emotionally literate and to be able to live and let live most of the time. I assume that this is also what most women mean by intelligence?

Papio

*Is that really snobby?
 

---

Posted by Joan_of_Quark (# 9887) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio.:
Have to say that I haven't met many men who want a much brighter female partner, though.....

---

I was reading up on high IQs somewhere (hopefully no-one will mistake me for someone who thinks high IQ is exactly the same as intelligence etc etc) and it said that generally more "intelligent" people are more "successful" - in terms of jobs, partners etc. However, beyond a certain point they find it harder to get partners. This kicks in at 140ish for men BUT 125 for women.

Also hope no-one thinks I meant everyone in an evening class was a dork - was just trying to say that every place which includes meeting the rest of the human race has a few of 'em. My own worst experience at evening class was being chatted up by the male model during coffee break in a life drawing class - kinda ruins the mystery, doncha know?
 

---

Posted by Little Miss Methodist (# 1000) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio.:
Ideally (and I stress ideally), I would like my gf to have a 2:1 or 1st class honours degree*, to be well read, to be articulate, to be emotionally literate and to be able to live and let live most of the time.

*Is that really snobby?

---

Yes.

Lets put it this way. I'm intelligent, (i'd say I was very intelligent, but that would be way too much boasting ). But, I have a third class degree. It's got nothing to do with intelligence and everything to do with losing interest in my subject and just not really working. I could have got a first if I had wanted to, but instead I had a good time at university, and have absolutely no regrets about that. I certainly don't think it makes me any less intelligent than people who have firsts. Accademic qualifications aren't everything, and whilst they can be an indicator of intelligence, being intelligent is about more than making the right marks on an exam paper.

Almost top of my list of attributes in a partner is that they would have to be at least as intelligent as me, and I rate that highly because if i'm going to end up with this guy for the rest of my life, I want to be able to have intelligent conversations with him on my level.

Papio, perhaps what you mean is that you are attracted to girls who are more accademic - I think thats slightly different to intelligent.

LMM

[ 15. September 2005, 17:55: Message edited by: Little Miss Methodist ]
 

---

Posted by Auntie Doris (# 9433) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Little Miss Methodist:
Almost top of my list of attributes in a partner is that they would have to be at least as intelligent as me, and I rate that highly because if i'm going to end up with this guy for the rest of my life, I want to be able to have intelligent conversations with him on my level.

---

Kind of where I sit with this issue. I want to meet someone who is intelligent, but that doesn't mean they wil necessarily have gone to uni. I want someone who can string a sentence together though... and has an opinion about most stuff!!

Unfortunately, my last blokes appeared to have had shit for brains.

I am (reasonably) intelligent, I have a degree and a Masters, but my real problem is that I have a big fat mouth and I say what I think!!!

Auntie Doris x
 

---

Posted by Papio. (# 4201) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Little Miss Methodist:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio.:
Ideally (and I stress ideally), I would like my gf to have a 2:1 or 1st class honours degree*, to be well read, to be articulate, to be emotionally literate and to be able to live and let live most of the time.

*Is that really snobby?

---

Yes.

Lets put it this way. I'm intelligent, (i'd say I was very intelligent, but that would be way too much boasting ). But, I have a third class degree. It's got nothing to do with intelligence and everything to do with losing interest in my subject and just not really working. I could have got a first if I had wanted to, but instead I had a good time at university, and have absolutely no regrets about that. I certainly don't think it makes me any less intelligent than people who have firsts. Accademic qualifications aren't everything, and whilst they can be an indicator of intelligence, being intelligent is about more than making the right marks on an exam paper.

Almost top of my list of attributes in a partner is that they would have to be at least as intelligent as me, and I rate that highly because if i'm going to end up with this guy for the rest of my life, I want to be able to have intelligent conversations with him on my level.

Papio, perhaps what you mean is that you are attracted to girls who are more accademic - I think thats slightly different to intelligent.

LMM

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

I've met qutie a few never married female PhDs and relatively few males.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joan_of_Quark:
However, beyond a certain point they find it harder to get partners. This kicks in at 140ish for men BUT 125 for women.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio.:
I think being academically able, emotionally literate and articulate are pretty key indicators. Can someone be intelligent without them? I think not.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LatePaul:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio.:
I think being academically able, emotionally literate and articulate are pretty key indicators. Can someone be intelligent without them? I think not.

---

How are you defining that? Just curious.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joan_of_Quark:
However, beyond a certain point they find it harder to get partners.

---

Cool! So it's not that I'm sad, desperate and not NT-Christian enough, it's just that I'm too smart!
 

---

Posted by Papio. (# 4201) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio.:

quote:

---

Originally posted by LatePaul:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio.:
I think being academically able, emotionally literate and articulate are pretty key indicators. Can someone be intelligent without them? I think not.

---

How are you defining that? Just curious.

---

Able to know, without having to think too much, what emotions other are presenting and whether these seem genuine. Ability to know you feel. Politeness. Ability to leave alone. Ability to push someone if that is appropriate.

FWIW - I think I could improve on some of these.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio.:
Ideally (and I stress ideally), I would like my gf to have a 2:1 or 1st class honours degree*, to be well read, to be articulate, to be emotionally literate and to be able to live and let live most of the time. I assume that this is also what most women mean by intelligence?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio.:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Joan_of_Quark:
However, beyond a certain point they find it harder to get partners. This kicks in at 140ish for men BUT 125 for women.

---

But as you said, IQ scores are complete and absolute bollocks. I have had been tested 4 times, and the difference between the lowest and highest scores is over 20 points. And, no, there is not a progressive increase each time.

---

Actually I didn't say they were bollocks, I would rather categorise them as one possible indicator of intelligence - intelligence being something that is more than one-dimensional, as you recognised when you posted about literacy, emotional sensitivity and all of that elsewhere. I don't know how you were tested, but the standard tests are expected to produce that kind of wild swing when you're several standard deviations from the mean. I mean, I bet your result didn't ever come out as 89, did it?

I suspect that most of us accumulate stereotypes about what we are/aren't looking for, why we think we are/aren't hitched up ourselves, etc. In my history, for every gloriously erudite bloke whose dazzling wit could keep me entertained for weeks there's a shambling, bearded and be-corduroy'ed academic who's absolutely clueless in the real world except insofar as he can latch onto a more sorted-out woman to deal with domestic complexities. And so on...
 

---

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by josephine:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tubbs:
Stuff like this makes me want to spit in the speaker's eye:

quote:

---

Originally posted by josephine:
Why do we act as if God owes us an explanation when we don't get what we want, but accept the things we want without a second thought?

---

---

Sorry you feel that way, Tubbs. I had seriously overdosed on Katrina news last week, among other things, and was feeling angry and uncharitable when I read the OP.

Nouwen asked for a theological answer to her friend's problem. Since I didn't say it particularly well the first time, I'll try again. The theological answer is that you don't always get what you want. Not only that, but you don't always get what you deserve. Solomon himself said that the fastest person doesn't always win the race. Likewise, the most lovely, most gracious, most charming person doesn't always get a spouse. As my father always said, life's not fair; get used to it. Solomon said time and chance happen to everyone.

Life is difficult. It hurts. Bad things happen. And good things happen, too. Sometimes the good things and bad things that happen are the consequences of choices you've made -- you got an A because you studied hard; you got an F because you didn't turn in any homework all semester.

But many times, most times perhaps, the good things you get are not the result of anything you've done; you didn't get them because you are better than anyone else, or worked harder, or had more faith, or because God loves you more. Same with the bad things -- they're not because of anything you've done or failed to do, not a result of a lack of faith, not because God hates you or is holding back on you. They just happen.

That's not an easy answer to accept, I know. But it's the answer that I believe is true.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio.:
Rat - I agree with all that, broadly speaking.

I don't think that formal education is always the same as acadcemic intelligence or that academic intelligence is the only form of intelligence.

So far as I know, that isn't what I said. But I thought all of what you said was conveyed in what I said.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio.:
*Is that really snobby?

---

Yes but I know what you mean. Im a snob too. While I can see what LMM is saying about academic being different to intelligent (and I have met her in real life and found her to be both articulate and emotionally literate) I probably have to admit to the same standards. And as my mother tells me intellectual snobbery is still snobbery and it isn't attractive. I'm not saying I'd have an application form for being my boyfriend with "second class honours or below need not apply" on it but I'd wonder whether the person had the same values as me. Education is a luxury and I might see an intelligent man choosing to squander it as being a tad irresponsible. Of course there are reasons and I fell apart a bit in my third year but luckily it was modular and I knew name on the paper in the last exam was enough for my 2:1.

Emotionally literate is interesting. I think of myself as being fairly emotionally literate. For the work I've been good at, just being bright wouldn't have been enough. Good facilitation and mentoring needs someone who can judge people and situations. And I think I'm a good friend but when it comes to knowing if people like me romantically I'm utterly dense. A really good friend of mine (now happlily settled with a partner I like very much) recently told me that on an occasion a few years ago he came to visit me with the intention of trying to get together with me. I was so staggered by this because I had no clue, I hadn’t realised at all.

Maybe that is my problem. Im too bright but not emotionally intelligent enough.

For what it's worth tho I'm a fabulous ex-girlfriend. It's my romantic skill. I'm surprised there aren’t queues of young men outside my door waiting to date me and dump me. So if there are any late 20something early 30something men out there who want a great ex girlfriend who will cook for you when you are passing through the city, listen to your problems, take your wedding photos etc. Applications stating academic qualifications will be taken by PM.
 

---

Posted by Papio. (# 4201) on :
 
I have also met LMM and also found her as you said.

Am leaving this alone now for a bit, because I am clearly not using certain words in the way that most people understand them. Or, at least, it looks that way to me.
 

---

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ms Lilith:
So if there are any late 20something early 30something men out there who want a great ex girlfriend who will cook for you when you are passing through the city, listen to your problems, take your wedding photos etc.

---

quote:

---

Applications stating academic qualifications will be taken by PM.

---

Bugger. I've only got an Ordinary Degree. Ah well, win some lose some ...
 

---

Posted by Ms Lilith (# 1767) on :
 
What makes you think you are being misunderstood? Seemed clear enough to me. Or have I misunderstood?
 

---

Posted by josephine (# 3899) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tubbs:
When someone is in tears, the only possible answer is “It’s Because They’re All Numbskulls Who Don’t Know A Good Thing When They See It! ™” along with offers of tea, tissues and biscuits.

---

quote:

---

And then there are the situations when the only solution is to voice certain unpalatable truths about your friend in the hope that it may encourage them to change.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by josephine:
Ah, yes. Mousethief has a friend who has no trouble at all getting first dates, but can't ever get a woman to go out with him a second time. Unfortunately, when he asks friends what the problem is, he doesn't seem to be able to hear the answer.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
.... It appears to me you took a positive and general statement about a good way to live one's life and turned it on its head to an intensively personal and negative one. Is this a Lutheran thing?

---

Sine, your kindness knows no bounds. Not to mention your charming avoidance of generalities.
 

---

Posted by Duo Seraphim (# 256) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
.... It appears to me you took a positive and general statement about a good way to live one's life and turned it on its head to an intensively personal and negative one. Is this a Lutheran thing?

---

Sine, your kindness knows no bounds. Not to mention your charming avoidance of generalities.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Lady of the Lake:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

I've met qutie a few never married female PhDs and relatively few males.

---

What are the differences between married and never-married women PhDs ?
I wonder if there are some psychological differences that might explain why some get hitched and some don't. The married ones I know are stable and happy, but one thing they have in common is that they have interests outside work and can handle non-academic types of people. Not all academics one comes across are like this.

---

I think you're right that being "only" an academic could put people off you (and this applies to either gender.) But the idea I was exploring was that maybe the reason so many apparently bright, attractive, cheerful female PhDs go "untaken" might be that they simply have a much smaller pool of potential partners to chose from (since so few less-educated men are wiling to consider them as possibilities, and there just aren't many male PhDs (or intellectual equivalents) to go around.)

I mean, you meet male department heads (PhD taken for granted, intelligence likely, though not guaranteed ) with wives who were lucky to graduate from high school. But when was the last time you met a female academic (or intellectual equivalent) with a husband who never did college?
 

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Posted by mertide (# 4500) on :
 
Isn't the size of that pool within their control, though? If highly educated women don't consider lesser educated men to be acceptable partners, and highly educated men do consider lesser educated women to be acceptable, then those women have a lot of competition for that small group of men. If those women as well as a high education level insist on physical attractiveness, social adeptness, and even openness to a particular religious outlook, they're looking at a very small pool indeed that are their targets, while those same men may have a potential mate pool tens or hundreds times bigger, and may themselves have certain "must haves" for a spouse that have nothing to do with the quality of the degree. It's not exactly God withholding marriage if the women withhold themselves from the vast majority of men who might be interested in them.
 

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Posted by I_am_not_Job (# 3634) on :
 
Er, couldn't it be partly to do with time and social circles. If you're an academic you're more likely to work with and hang out with other academics. The advantage for men, and I agree this is sexist, is if they get on with their launderette, they are probably more likely to ask her out, than the academic woman is going to ask out the sexy car mechanic.

My other half and I both have IQs of around 150 and were at the same college at uni. WHoever said women with IQs over 125 can't find men obviously hasn't been to freshers week!!!
 

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Posted by I_am_not_Job (# 3634) on :
 
Thinking a bit further though when I had my gap year before uni I met a gorgeous safari guide in Africa. We had a romance and when I got home I set about working out how to save part of my student grant to go visit him in the vacation, only to get a letter saying he was breaking it off as he couldn't compete with Oxford graduates and he didn't want to hold me back. I was devastated!

However, of course, there is the theory that people end up with their more or less equals. Put 100 men and 100 women in a room and tell them to pair up people will go for the best they think they can get. An intelligent man might end up with a less intelligent woman, but her looks will no doubt make up for it. This sounds reductionist but its basic evolutionary theory. Subconsciously we go for what we think is the best genetic match we can get that will be complimentary to us.

(Of course my hubby being equally intelligent to me must also be as gorgeous as me! )
 

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Posted by Little Miss Methodist (# 1000) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio.:
I had a good time, did not work that hard, and still got a 1st.

---

Maybe you would have more sucess with women if you used that as your chat up line?

LMM
 

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Posted by LatePaul (# 37) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio.:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio.:

quote:

---

Originally posted by LatePaul:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Papio.:
I think being academically able, emotionally literate and articulate are pretty key indicators. Can someone be intelligent without them? I think not.

---

How are you defining that? Just curious.

---

Able to know, without having to think too much, what emotions other are presenting and whether these seem genuine. Ability to know you feel. Politeness. Ability to leave alone. Ability to push someone if that is appropriate.

FWIW - I think I could improve on some of these.

---

Bearing my brother in mind, I know that Asperger's Syndrome, for example, effects these abilities.

But for those without AS etc...

---

It's funny you should say that because I was about to say that the person I've personally met who is the cleverest is not very emotionally literate. He's aware of it though as he once told me that his brother had AS and he suspected he might have a mild case of it himself.

So, not to split hairs, but I feel that whilst emotional literacy is undoubtedly a desirable trait in a partner it is not, IMO, a necessary part of intelligence per se.

(btw so long as I'm nit-picking I think you mean that AS affects those qualities. If it effected them then your brother and my friend would be more, not less, emotionally literate. )
 

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Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by mertide:
Isn't the size of that pool within their control, though? If highly educated women don't consider lesser educated men to be acceptable partners, and highly educated men do consider lesser educated women to be acceptable, then those women have a lot of competition for that small group of men. If those women as well as a high education level insist on physical attractiveness, social adeptness, and even openness to a particular religious outlook, they're looking at a very small pool indeed that are their targets, while those same men may have a potential mate pool tens or hundreds times bigger, and may themselves have certain "must haves" for a spouse that have nothing to do with the quality of the degree. It's not exactly God withholding marriage if the women withhold themselves from the vast majority of men who might be interested in them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
In my experience, many men are intimidated by women who are better educated than they are and by women whom they perceive to be more intelligent than they are.

---

quote:

---

degree-educated men married to hairdressers, shop-assistants and the like.

---

quote:

---

Maybe you would have more sucess with women if you used that as your chat up line?

---

Let's drop this entire tangent shall we.

Callan
Purgatory Host.
 

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Posted by Jazzuk777 (# 5720) on :
 
From my experience at junior and primary, the girls in my classes consistently performed better academically than the boys anyway......being normally 1st or 2nd male in the class, my scores still normally equated to somewhere around the middle of the female half of the class.....as to what would have happened in Secondary, I never got to see that, as I ended up going to an all-boys grammar school

So if women find it difficult to date/marry less intelligent men (or men find it difficult to date more intelligent women - the complementary hypothesis), then by rights only a 50% of us ever will, roughly the most most intelligent half of the male popluation, and the least intelligent of the female population!*


(*I know this is Purgatory not Heaven, but please don't take my theory too seriously!)
 

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Posted by mertide (# 4500) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
QUOTE]In my experience, many men are intimidated by women who are better educated than they are and by women whom they perceive to be more intelligent than they are. Crossing education off her list of desireable qualities in a mate will frequently not increase the size of the pool of potential mates for a well-educated woman; less well-educated men typically don't want her.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Emma.:
hmmm futures not looking good for me then!!!!
(good education and iq)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Emma.:
hmmm futures not looking good for me then!!!!
(good education and iq)

---

All you have to do is not look down your nose at plumbers and taxi drivers...

---

I can see the adverts now..."Black cab drivers - we always know the quickest way!" -- but would they stop talking once they got there?! Could bring a whole new meaning to the inevitable phrase, "Do you know who I had in the back of the cab last week?"
 

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Posted by saysay (# 6645) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by mertide:
My experience is more that highly educated women are far more likely to reject say a tradesman or someone with a lesser education, even a lesser standard degree, with a "just not my type" than the rejection going the other way.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by saysay:
I also think it takes an extremely secure man to be able to deal with it.

---

Exactly. The one relationship I had with a man who didn't have a college degree eventually foundered, in part because of his perception that I looked down on him for not finishing college. This was really his own feelings of failure and inadequacy projected onto me, but it didn't matter; sometimes I made him feel bad about himself just by being who I am.
 

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Posted by mertide (# 4500) on :
 
Since it seems my experience is not held in common with most of the educated women here, does anyone have a strategy for how these wonderful, smart, educated women are likely to find personally and socially acceptable partners? Do they expand the age range they're looking in or look in different places? Take on "fixer-uppers"?
 

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Posted by Joan_of_Quark (# 9887) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by mertide:
...Take on "fixer-uppers"?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mertide:
Since it seems my experience is not held in common with most of the educated women here, does anyone have a strategy for how these wonderful, smart, educated women are likely to find personally and socially acceptable partners? Do they expand the age range they're looking in or look in different places? Take on "fixer-uppers"?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gort:
They can start by being honest with themselves about their priorities. Many "intelligent" women have more important personal issues than finding a mate.

---

quote:

---

It shouldn't be surprising if they're alone because career or intellectual pursuits take precedence over fulfilment in a relationship.

---

quote:

---

Archaic social convention shouldn't restrict the modern woman from taking the traditional male role in initiating contact.

---

quote:

---

Another matter that I've discovered from personal experience is the high percentage of emotionally and physically abused female victims of childhood. I'm sure this effects many males also, but since my emotional interaction with them is on a different level, my experience of the problem with regard to women is biased. It seems many female victims reach middle age without finding a personal resolution to the abuse which continues to color their relationships with men. It's difficult to imagine a person committing themselves to an open, honest and loving relationship with a partner who subconsciously symbolizes pain and insecurity. Many times that lack of resolution can be purposely buried under academic, career or "intellectual" priorities.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mertide:
Since it seems my experience is not held in common with most of the educated women here, does anyone have a strategy for how these wonderful, smart, educated women are likely to find personally and socially acceptable partners? Do they expand the age range they're looking in or look in different places? Take on "fixer-uppers"?

---

Well, I "expanded the age range" by marrying about 20 years above myself, and also the "culture range" by marrying an Asian. But I don't think all cultures have the same issues as Western ones with regards to education and romance. At least, my husband feels no need to hide the fact that his wife is highly educated (of course, he has nearly as much himself) and in fact others in the community tend to regard me as a "trophy wife" (shows what THEY know) .

To be sure, there is a strong tendency there as well to marry equally in as many respects as possible, and I HAVE met Asian men who were vastly insecure and took out their feelings on their somewhat more educated wives. The difference is maybe that the community condemns him for it. She is not the oddity; he is.
 

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Posted by Gort (# 6855) on :
 
Anselmina wrote:

quote:

---

Just for clarification. I know what an intelligent woman is. What's an "intelligent" woman? And is there some reason why 'more important personal issues' are more wrong for her, than they would be for anyone else, say, a man or a married woman?

---

quote:

---

So while waiting, or aggressively searching for Mr Right, women should forget about the bills, the rent, the need to earn a decent wage in order to live a reasonable life? And, further, they should be willing to sacrifice 'intellectual pursuits' just in case they may be perceived as taking precedence over a bloke?

---

quote:

---

I can certainly understand a woman who has been a victim of abuse being wary of future relationships, or caught in a spiral of harmful relationships. I'm wondering how the academic, career and "intellectual" profile of a woman should necessarily be connected with that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gort:
They can start by being honest with themselves about their priorities. Many "intelligent" women have more important personal issues than finding a mate.

---

A 'more important personal issue' can include anything from caring for needy relatives, health issues or needing to put a roof over one's head. Is it really dishonest to prioritize these things over finding a mate?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:
I suspect most men have a perfectly fair and reasonable expectation that they can have satisfying work, should they need it, mental stimulation and a partner should they wish it. And I'm disappointed that anyone should feel that oughtn't to apply for both sexes.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gort:

It takes work to find that special someone and it's easier to write off failure as an act of God or lack of available, qualified candidates. As I mentioned earlier, aggressive action helps if finding a compatible partner is important.

---

quote:

---

Another matter that I've discovered from personal experience is the high percentage of emotionally and physically abused female victims of childhood. I'm sure this effects many males also, but since my emotional interaction with them is on a different level, my experience of the problem with regard to women is biased. It seems many female victims reach middle age without finding a personal resolution to the abuse which continues to color their relationships with men. It's difficult to imagine a person committing themselves to an open, honest and loving relationship with a partner who subconsciously symbolizes pain and insecurity. Many times that lack of resolution can be purposely buried under academic, career or "intellectual" priorities.

---

I definetely feel I've seen this in some people, and was just discussing this sort of thing with a (female) friend last night in fact.
Sometimes the problems get expressed in the work too, which can complicate things even further. It takes real clear-sightedness to be able to handle the connection between both spheres. IME there are some women like this who don't necessarily help because they pass on a cynical view of men into the academic culture (for example), and this then influences younger women who are just starting off, but who have problems of their own that need dealing with. So it becoms a vicious circle.

 

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Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by saysay:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gort:
They can start by being honest with themselves about their priorities. Many "intelligent" women have more important personal issues than finding a mate.

---

A 'more important personal issue' can include anything from caring for needy relatives, health issues or needing to put a roof over one's head. Is it really dishonest to prioritize these things over finding a mate?

---

I read this differently. I don't think Gort was saying that it's dishonest to prioritize those things over finding a mate, but that women should admit that that's what they're doing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:
[...] But it's no easier for a woman to cooly select the 'I'm hunting for a man' option in the game of life than the 'I'm trying to earn a living' or 'I'm trying to be a good daughter and take care of my invalid parents' options.

And it really does sound as if you're saying that women who wish to be married ought not to give a priority to the same extent that men do to 'intellectual pursuits'. Otherwise they've only got themselves to blame! I know what you're saying is a bit more complex than this, but so is living life as it comes and doing what needs to be done regardless of what one might wish to do.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Emma.:
ok - so if a single woman was going to "prioritize" marriage - er, what would she do then?! Im puzzled.....

(im not desperate to jump into it again - just curious as to the asnwer!)

---

Keep it upper most in your thoughts. Make yourself available. Seek out groups of singles. Dress up. Flirt. Be friendly, outgoing, fun... pinch an arse once in awhile.
 

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Posted by Papio. (# 4201) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by LatePaul:
So, not to split hairs, but I feel that whilst emotional literacy is undoubtedly a desirable trait in a partner it is not, IMO, a necessary part of intelligence per se.

(btw so long as I'm nit-picking I think you mean that AS affects those qualities. If it effected them then your brother and my friend would be more, not less, emotionally literate. )

---

Yes, I kind of realise that I was subsuming things into the catergory of intelligence that were not strictly the same thing. I certainly would not want to claim my brother was dim. He isn't...

And, yes, I do tend to confuse "affect" and "effect".

LMM - I hadn't realised until I re-read this thread a minute ago just how bitchy my reply to you must have sounded and probably, in fact, was. FWIW, I enjoyed meeting you at the 2004 (?) Artists meet and I enjoy chatting to you in the cafe. I apologise for the horrible comment.
 

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Posted by Curiosus (# 4808) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gort:
However, I try to the best of my ability to accept responsibility for using everything in my power to accomplish those things that I firmly desire.

---

Ultimately I accept responsibility for the fact that I'm single. Yes, it is very difficult to meet potential dates but on the rare occasion that I am not exactly the ideal date However, going back to the OP, that doesn't stop me from getting really, really cross with God sometimes. He knows exactly why I find it so hard to trust people and why I run away if there's any chance that I'm going to get hurt. I struggle to understand why God leaves me to battle my problems on my own. I used to pray that God would help me find a situation where I would meet someone special. Now that I've realised that a relationship/marriage is highly improbable I ask Him to give me strength to accept the fact that I'm single. So far He doesn't seem to listen to that request either! I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that God is deaf when it comes to human relationships.
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Curiosus:
Now that I've realised that a relationship/marriage is highly improbable I ask Him to give me strength to accept the fact that I'm single.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
But that's exactly like a hungry person asking for the hunger to go away, rather than for food.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gort:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Emma.:
ok - so if a single woman was going to "prioritize" marriage - er, what would she do then?! Im puzzled.....

---

Keep it upper most in your thoughts. Make yourself available. Seek out groups of singles. Dress up. Flirt. Be friendly, outgoing, fun... pinch an arse once in awhile.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:
I suspect most men have a perfectly fair and reasonable expectation that they can have satisfying work, should they need it, mental stimulation and a partner should they wish it. And I'm disappointed that anyone should feel that oughtn't to apply for both sexes.

---

Most men work in jobs they hate, or at any rate are totally bored with, because they need the money.

Unless we are only thinking about a minority of men in professional or managerial or technical jobs, or the tiny rump of old-style craft jobs. And not always even then - I do rather techy work in offices, but at previous places of emplyment the people I worked with found my notion that one of the things I'd like to get out of work was fun to be rather strange. And not something you say at your annual appraisal if you have any desire to get promoted.

People do get enjoyment out of work but its usually the incidental or accidental features of the work rather than the job itself. People they meet or places they go.

The idea that work is an exercise in self-fulfilment is in an industrial age something that is pretty much the province of an affluent minority who have choices and opportunities that most people never get. And - this is me sticking my neck out here to get chopped off - that minority perhaps has included more women than men, a large proportion of them being women who derived some economic security from their husbands. But most women, like most men - and almost all working-class women and men - work because they have to.

Maybe I've been reading too much. Stuffing my head with William Morris and Kropotkin and Eric Gill... This crazy notion that there has to be abetter way to do things than this...
 

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Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
Ken, I wrote that men have a fair and reasonable expectation of these things. Not that they always achieved it, but that in a perfectly fair and reasonable way they perhaps expected such things. This was in reply to my interpreting Gort's post - rightly or wrongly! - that women shouldn't expect similar things. So I was suggesting that women's expectations are in many cases no different than men's.

I said nothing about men always getting what they wanted workwise, or in any other sphere of life, come to that.

[ 19. September 2005, 11:43: Message edited by: Anselmina ]
 

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Posted by I_am_not_Job (# 3634) on :
 
I disagree strongly that it is a minority privilege to do work one enjoys. I agree it is the case that a minority do this, but that is more to do with cultural expectations and people not knowing how to open their minds. Very few people have guns held against their head making them go into that office. If I left school at 16 I would still have a wide range of options like working in a bank, working in a supermarket, working in a fashion shop, working as a bin man, working as a postman, making something in a factory, all manner of things. I would look at all of these and think about my hobbies and interests, could a job include an aspect of these, or do I want to work hours that give me more time for them? What are my friends doing? Which have prospects or on the job training and do I want that or do I just want 9-5 and beer money? I did a job I hated for 18 months. I got up and left. I would say 50% minimum of my colleagues hated it to (it was accountancy afterall ) but did they leave too? No, they thought I was mad. They were all educated but couldn't think beyond a standard world view. Very sad.
 

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Posted by Gort (# 6855) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gort:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Emma.:
ok - so if a single woman was going to "prioritize" marriage - er, what would she do then?! Im puzzled.....

---

Keep it upper most in your thoughts. Make yourself available. Seek out groups of singles. Dress up. Flirt. Be friendly, outgoing, fun... pinch an arse once in awhile.

---

And in what way is that different from the advice you'd be giving to single men?

---

quote:

---

Also you are sort of asking people to act a part to pretend to be someone they are not. What happens when this prioritising person, of whatever sex, lands their fish and then goes back to being someone who doesn't like dressing up or flirting, or isn't outgoing & friendly, or who wouldn't dream of pinching anyone's parts uninvited in a month of Sundays? Is there a law against misrepresentation of goods?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gort:
I suppose it's better to remain shabby, introverted, unfriendly, anti-social, boring and blame your fate on God. At least you're being true to yourself and others.

---

So once again we're back to Sine's point that wonderful people get husbands if they want them and if you're not married you must be some kind of dysfunctional misanthrope. Because as everyone knows nobody who is either dysfunctional or misanthropic ever gets a marriage partner. And no wonderful people ever remain unmarried.

Still, good to know that so far as Gort goes, if someone is remaining true to themselves and is still unmarried, the truth they are remaining true to is that they must be shabby, introverted, unfriendly, anti-social, boring. It's clearly not possible to be rather an ordinary, likeable, straightforward human being with the same quota of gifts and faults as most other people and still not have found the right person to have spent one's life with. No, that's obviously out of the question .
 

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Posted by andrew1066 (# 10360) on :
 
good idea
yes i am open to meeting people
most strangers can be friends who havn't met yet

I am very new and shy of starting a thread - am I as an apprentice of standing to do so?

hows about a thread, like Ms Lilith suggested, on How is a valid sacramental/ theological marriage created? It may be also legally (according to the law of the land) valid, but what are the conditions necessary to the creating of a sacramental marriage?

if there was a thread for singles who are truly single, and open to the possibility of not being single, yes I'd be interested?
but, it's like politics and power
- just as the desire to exercise political power should be an absolute disqualification from ever doing so; so,
Am I sure I want to meet (or be) someone who joins a singles club?
 

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Posted by Ms Lilith (# 1767) on :
 
Andrew1066, anyone can start a thread. I believe the apprentice thing is just so people know that you are new and can be welcoming but also so they can be aware that any breaches of etiquette are usually unintentional. Don’t be shy. Start your debate thread off in purg. People will be nice cos you are new.
 

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Posted by Gort (# 6855) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gort:
I suppose it's better to remain shabby, introverted, unfriendly, anti-social, boring and blame your fate on God. At least you're being true to yourself and others.

---

So once again we're back to Sine's point that wonderful people get husbands if they want them and if you're not married you must be some kind of dysfunctional misanthrope. Because as everyone knows nobody who is either dysfunctional or misanthropic ever gets a marriage partner. And no wonderful people ever remain unmarried.

Still, good to know that so far as Gort goes, if someone is remaining true to themselves and is still unmarried, the truth they are remaining true to is that they must be shabby, introverted, unfriendly, anti-social, boring. It's clearly not possible to be rather an ordinary, likeable, straightforward human being with the same quota of gifts and faults as most other people and still not have found the right person to have spent one's life with. No, that's obviously out of the question .

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gort:
None that I'm aware of, but you do have a point. I suppose it's better to remain shabby, introverted, unfriendly, anti-social, boring and blame your fate on God. At least you're being true to yourself and others.

---

And the clue that this was 'ironic' and humourous was ? The above appears to my mind to be a very plain and straightforward statement of what you wanted to say. It also largely reflects what's gone before. That you didn't want people to take it seriously this time is rather hard to spot. But then what else can you expect from a woman who's probably only 'intelligent' .

For goodness sake, Gort. Did you really think you could offer the 'innocent objective advice' that women, who want to be, could probably be married if only they were less obviously intelligent and more marriage-obsessive, and have people gratefully receive it without challenge and debate? That, in short, they've only got themselves and their work-related ambitions to blame if they're partnerless?

I feel an objective distance in this argument, because I've never experienced much of a pull towards marriage myself. But on behalf of so many dear friends and other acquaintances who would love to be married but who are not, through no fault of their own - or certainly not through the faults you've listed - it's important to challenge such assumptions, I think.

I don't deny that it's easy to look at some folks - female and male - and think 'no wonder they never married', in exactly the same way one looks at others and thinks 'who on earth would have taken him/her on?'! But, I suggest, your 'innocent objective advice' isn't much use to the majority of ordinary singletons who simply haven't (yet) had the luck, timing or opportunism to find the right person for them.

I know the old cliche is partially true that to find the right person you need to be the right person; but in real life, it just ain't as simple as that.
 

---

Posted by Gort (# 6855) on :
 
The "clue" was here. Looks a little different in context huh?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:
[...] For goodness sake, Gort. Did you really think you could offer the 'innocent objective advice' that women, who want to be, could probably be married if only they were less obviously intelligent and more marriage-obsessive, and have people gratefully receive it without challenge and debate? That, in short, they've only got themselves and their work-related ambitions to blame if they're partnerless?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gort:
They can start by being honest with themselves about their priorities. Many "intelligent" women have more important personal issues than finding a mate. It shouldn't be surprising if they're alone because career or intellectual pursuits take precedence over fulfilment in a relationship.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gort:
The "clue" was here. Looks a little different in context huh? [QUOTE]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
I must say, I resent seeing introverted there in the list with unfriendly, anti-social, and boring. It's not an inherently negative personality trait, even if it's not everyone's cup of tea. I score off the chart for introversion, and I'm attracted to introverted men. Extroverted people can be exhausting for me and sometimes even irritating.

---

quote:

---

Years ago I was an utterly dysfunctional immature wierdo,

---

So what happened/what's new?



Luv ya

[ 21. September 2005, 00:15: Message edited by: Jahlove ]
 

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