Thread: Purgatory: I have a real problem with Hell! Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by ThomasDF (# 6760) on :
 
The Biblical place, not the forum.

The absolute worst part of Christianity, Judaism and Islam that I find most repulsive is the very idea of Hell and eternal punishment. Lucifer is bad enough in being absurd, but Hell is the ultimate use of fear and intimidation to force people to believe something.

The whole story about Lucifer and Hell is like some English children's 19th Century song. First we have the head archangel turning on god and having an angelic war. Are angels really that stupid? How absolutely idiotic can you be? What angel wouldn't know the power of god and how could they possibly be jealous? Oh yeah, and how could angels be killed if they are divine creatures? Well, the story is right out of ancient Greek mythology. Zeus taking on Kronos and the Titans taking sides.

Anyway, I digress. Considering the very concept of god and his absolute control of everything, god creates Hell (or whatever twist you want to put on it) to punish the nonbeliever, why? Why would a god need his creation to believe in him? Why would god impose such a horrific punishment simply for not believing? It has to be the biggest self centered ego in existence and that is contrary to the very idea of a god.

A god would have to be absolute perfection and most certainly free of any petty human weaknesses (anger, jealousy, sadness, etc.). A god would know exactly why people do what they do and believe what they believe and simply understand without any need to judge. Every god on earth have the worst human traits and Hell is the combination of all those traits. The existence of Hell as an eternal place of punishment is an impossibility.

Inevitably people will quote the Bible, how nice, but totally irrelevant. If there were a word of god, he would only need one word (if that) to make himself perfectly clear to every single human on this planet. He sure as hell wouldn't need a long bag of confusing, contradictory wind like the "holy" books that exist.

Of course, I'm just getting started and there's much more to my criticism of the gods (all of them). I've been polite long enough in showing restraint, but religions and their gods are so remarkably destructive that I feel like really expressing myself. Sometimes it gets to me when I see Christians murdering people over abortion, Muslims cutting hostages throats, Hindus killing their infant girls and the blood never seems to end. The belief in Hell is certainly a driving force as it is the most blood thirsty of all.

Thomas

[ 08. January 2006, 21:59: Message edited by: Erin ]
 

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Posted by Canadian Phil (# 6202) on :
 
Wow, you must have really been holding that in

Seriously, I'm not sure that I'm with you with your concept of God, although I do believe that there is something that matches what we call Hell (even if we can't know whether the descriptions are metaphor or literal). My response is to point that God, when he gave humanity free will, opened the possibility that we would choose to separate ourselves from him and turn to evil. And we did, in spades. That is what has separated ourselves from God, so it is a trifle unfair to blame God for that in my opinion. The thing with free will is that it isn't free unless we suffer the consequences of our decisions. Separating ourselves from God, who I firmly believe is the root and the source of meaning in this world, has as a consequence a denial of our own humanity and our own selves. That is as good a definition of Hell as I know.

We humans are incredibly good at corrupting things. That includes religion whose purpose is supposed to be to call us towards God. Sometimes religion does do that, but sometimes, as you point out, it leads to destructiveness. I would argue that those moments are defined when we shift away from God and towards an idol of our own making: power, ourselves, our community. Religion is used to justify a multitude of sins, but, then, I would argue so is pretty much anything that you can name. Heck, even democracy and freedom can be used as justifications for evil (witness the Iraq war). Just because we human beings are so messed up in our priorities doesn't mean that God is up there smiting us. We are very good at smiting each other, thank you very much.

Hope that helps.

Peace,
Phil
 

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Posted by voodoo janie (# 7083) on :
 
Here's my problem with hell.... and this has always been the thing I don't understand:
If you have to be "evil" to get there and Satan is the ultimate evil, why would it be punishment to go there? If you're a bad person who ends up in hell, wouldn't Satan celebrate you for being such a fantastic evil-doer? why would Satan punish an "ungodly" or non-christian person?

Now I don't believe in the concept of "Hell" at all, for this and many reasons. But above my own reservations - ultimately it seems to be an incorrect ideology, especially when applied to Christianity... I wonder why people fear it so, when the very concept behind hell is so flawed... any thoughts?
 

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Posted by Ophthalmos (# 3256) on :
 

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Originally posted by ThomasDF:
The Biblical place, not the forum.

The absolute worst part of Christianity, Judaism and Islam that I find most repulsive is the very idea of Hell and eternal punishment. Lucifer is bad enough in being absurd, but Hell is the ultimate use of fear and intimidation to force people to believe something.

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...we have the head archangel turning on god and having an angelic war. Are angels really that stupid? How absolutely idiotic can you be? What angel wouldn't know the power of god and how could they possibly be jealous?

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Oh yeah, and how could angels be killed if they are divine creatures? <snip> Considering the very concept of god and his absolute control of everything, god creates Hell (or whatever twist you want to put on it) to punish the nonbeliever, why?

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Why would a god need his creation to believe in him?

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Why would god impose such a horrific punishment simply for not believing?

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A god would have to be absolute perfection and most certainly free of any petty human weaknesses (anger, jealousy, sadness, etc.). A god would know exactly why people do what they do and believe what they believe and simply understand without any need to judge. Every god on earth have the worst human traits and Hell is the combination of all those traits. The existence of Hell as an eternal place of punishment is an impossibility.

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Inevitably people will quote the Bible, how nice, but totally irrelevant.

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If there were a word of god, he would only need one word (if that) to make himself perfectly clear to every single human on this planet.

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He sure as hell wouldn't need a long bag of confusing, contradictory wind like the "holy" books that exist.

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Of course, I'm just getting started and there's much more to my criticism of the gods (all of them).

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I've been polite long enough in showing restraint, but religions and their gods are so remarkably destructive that I feel like really expressing myself.

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Sometimes it gets to me when I see Christians murdering people over abortion, Muslims cutting hostages throats, Hindus killing their infant girls and the blood never seems to end.

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The belief in Hell is certainly a driving force as it is the most blood thirsty of all.

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It has nothing to do with blood-thirstiness. It has to do with fire-thirstiness, silly.
 

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Posted by Ophthalmos (# 3256) on :
 
Canadian Phil.

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Originally posted by voodoo janie:
If you have to be "evil" to get there and Satan is the ultimate evil, why would it be punishment to go there? If you're a bad person who ends up in hell, wouldn't Satan celebrate you for being such a fantastic evil-doer? why would Satan punish an "ungodly" or non-christian person?

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Now I don't believe in the concept of "Hell" at all, for this and many reasons. But above my own reservations - ultimately it seems to be an incorrect ideology, especially when applied to Christianity... I wonder why people fear it so, when the very concept behind hell is so flawed... any thoughts?

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Originally posted by voodoo janie:
yes that is all well and good, but why would it be considered punishment at all for those who chose to be there...?

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Living in denial and rejection of the source of everything that is? I'd feel like I was punishing myself.

I don't think you can ever "belong" in a hellish state, because you are choosing against the ultimate Trinitarian community.
 

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Posted by saysay (# 6645) on :
 
voodoo janie -

There is a nice little tale whose origins I can't remember and which I will no doubt not be able to tell as well as I should. However, it goes something like that:

A visitor is taken to Hell. It is, essentially, a large room in which all the people are seated around a table. In the middle of the table is a pot of the most wonderful food ever created. However, all of the people around the table are wailing in pain and hunger because they are starving to death. They have spoons to eat the food with, but the handles of the spoons are so long that they cannot hold the handle and get the food into their mouths.

The visitor is taken to heaven. It is basically the same room. Same table, same food, same spoons. However, the people are joyous and laughing and having a grand old time of it. The difference?

Since they could not feed themselves, they used their spoons to feed each other.

When you're ignorant and selfish, being surrounded by people exactly like you is nothing like being at Club Med.

say
 

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Posted by ThomasDF (# 6760) on :
 
Oh man! You're blowing my mind with this new (to me) concept of Hell. That is so cool! It is refreshing to experience a whole new perspective. All I've heard about Hell was the infernal, fire and brimstone thing. However, I do find it hard to believe that very many Christians subscribe to Hell being a fun sinful place.

So, let me see if I get this right. People like rapists, child molesters, mass murderers and so forth get to enjoy themselves for eternity? What about their victims? Something tells me they aren't going enjoy their sins that way. Those who like to rape and kill children, um, why would children be in hell?

Sorry, I don't buy this one. I think that if this was a proven fact, there would be very few Christians left... they'd all want to go to hell. I know I would. My sins aren’t real bad, but I sure wouldn't mind having nonstop orgies for eternity. Someone pass the grapes.

PS. Ophthalmos: You have some interesting points that I would enjoy discussing, but I have to figure this UBB stuff out in selecting quotes. Hopefully I can figure that out today.

Thomas
 

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Posted by Alt Wally . (# 3245) on :
 

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One day the gods will die because we won't need them anymore.

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Human greatness is the requisite component of idealogical atheism, and it of course requires rejection of "gods" of any sort. Mixed reviews on it for the 20th century, we'll see what the 21st holds. I'm not optimistic, as the Jesuit Henri du Lubac said "It is not true, as is sometimes said, that man cannot organize the world without God. What is true is that, without God, he can only organize it against man."

janie, Fr. G. pretty much summed up what I would have said. It is existance without meaning and self-isolation that is the state of "Hell".

One example I usually think of is that of monastics. In Orthodoxy, the men and women who take up this life are regarded as the nearest to God among humans. They renounce the trappings and material comforts of the world. They observe the liturgy of time, meaning a continual routine of daily offices at all times thoughout the day. They keep no secrets from their spiritual elders and submit completely to the authority of that elder. Their life is one of complete communion God, of unceasing prayer. The eremitic life is that of total abandonment of the self and the direct experience of God. Ask most people, and they would probably tell you that sounds like their idea of Hell.
 

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Posted by ThomasDF (# 6760) on :
 
saysay: What makes you think people who don't accept god are ignorant and selfish? I've certainly seen my share of ignorant and selfish Christians... ah, but they aren’t "true" Christians, right?

You're little tale sounds so impressive, but it doesn't take much to see that it represents nothing and has so substance or reality to it.

The Christian belief is that you have to accept Jesus as the son of god and you can be as ignorant and selfish as you want and still get to heaven. It can be claimed that once you "see the glory" you won't be ignorant and selfish, but the reality is quite to the contrary.

Thomas
 

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Posted by LydaRose (# 4544) on :
 
I've always had trouble with the concept of Hell and a loving God, so a while back I started a thread on Hell. I don't know that I have any more to say at this point, but I thought I'd share the link.
 

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Posted by saysay (# 6645) on :
 
ThomasDF -

Please note that I didn't say that people who don't believe in G-d are ignorant and selfish. I was trying to point out that, when you sin, often it is not very fun to be surrounded by people who act exactly like you.

I'm a little surprised that you are posting on this website and still referring to the "Christian belief" as if it were some monolithic entity when there is really quite a lot of diversity and disagreement. I'm not particularly interested in laying out my theology here, but I actually believe that ultimately G-d is nondual, meaning that heaven and hell do not exist; I'm also a universalist, meaning that I ultimately think that all people, regardless of their beliefs or actions, will be saved. There are any number of people on this site who would argue these points endlessly with me (if they haven't lost the will to argue by endlessly arguing against others).

I grew up in the Bible-thumping USA South where some people tend to use G-d like a stick to beat you with, so I think I have some sympathy for where you're coming from - I avoided Christianity like the plague for quite a while. However, I'm not sure you're going to get much out of this sight unless you listen to what people are actually saying and what they actually believe instead of assuming you know. Believe it or not, but some people think of the doctrines we hold and the stories we use to try to teach each other about G-d as useful tools. We need them because we are incapable of seeing G-d face to face, and they are very useful and help us to teach each other about the glimpse of G-d we've gotten. They may be imperfect, but they're what we've got, and we'd like to try to make the best of them.
 

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Posted by Alogon (# 5513) on :
 

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Originally posted by voodoo janie:
yes that is all well and good, but why would it be considered punishment at all for those who chose to be there...? wouldn't it be like the ultimate club medd afterlife for all the evil folk out there....

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Originally posted by Ophthalmos:

The doctrine of hell is used for that, yes. It doesn't have to be, though. For many it seems to be the best or only way of reconciling God's desire for humans to have free will and thus choose to reject God.

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Maybe he didn't like God. It's surely a question beyond our scope, although...

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They can't be killed, but the Bible says God created hell "for the devil and all the angels". Presumably, then, it (I don't actually believe it's a place) was never intended for humans to be punished in.

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He doesn't. He doesn't need us at all.

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He wouldn't. People choose to go to hell themselves.

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A few points to make here:

1) God having human weaknesses: it's my belief that when God is said to have "anger" or "jealousy" in the Bible, it is because God has had his free self-giving love turned back onto Godself. They aren't human emotions, but simply our best description of God (he's hard to describe; the technical theological term for calling God by human standards is anthropomorphism)

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2) God doesn't judge WHAT people belief, in my opinion. He judges HOW they believe.

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3) What do you mean by eternal place of punishment? Because eternal places of punishment can go on forever, or they can stop if a person wants to stop punishing themself (in my belief).

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It would be nice if you respected the fact that Christians have as part of their religion read the Bible for greater personal spiritual comfort. We're not all psychos.

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Which is what happens when you die, presumably. You see God for who God is. The Bible says "we see through a glass darkly" but that in eternity we will see God fully. Can you suggest good alternatives to the way things are?

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Why not?

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You can criticise the Islamic or Judaic conceptions of God here if you want, but I doubt many will be that interested considering it is the Magazine of Christian Unrest. Try Beliefnet or whatever multi-religious sites there are out there if you want to criticise all the gods.

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I've been polite long enough in showing restraint, but religions and their gods are so remarkably spirit-building that I feel like really expressing myself.

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Yeah, me too. They're people. Like you or I.

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It has nothing to do with blood-thirstiness. It has to do with fire-thirstiness, silly.

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Okay, you got me on that one.

Thomas
 

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Posted by ThomasDF (# 6760) on :
 

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Originally posted by Alt Wally. :

Human greatness is the requisite component of idealogical atheism, and it of course requires rejection of "gods" of any sort. Mixed reviews on it for the 20th century, we'll see what the 21st holds. I'm not optimistic, as the Jesuit Henri du Lubac said "It is not true, as is sometimes said, that man cannot organize the world without God. What is true is that, without God, he can only organize it against man."

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janie, Fr. G. pretty much summed up what I would have said. It is existance without meaning and self-isolation that is the state of "Hell".

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Originally posted by saysay:

Please note that I didn't say that people who don't believe in G-d are ignorant and selfish. I was trying to point out that, when you sin, often it is not very fun to be surrounded by people who act exactly like you.

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I'm a little surprised that you are posting on this website and still referring to the "Christian belief" as if it were some monolithic entity when there is really quite a lot of diversity and disagreement.

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A god would be able to communicate exactly and in an instant.

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Originally posted by ThomasDF:

What makes you think that sinners would be so repulsed by each other? I believe sex is very healthy and see nothing wrong with people enjoying it with many other people. Do you actually think I wouldn't have fun surrounded with people exactly like me (actually, that would be a requirement)?

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If you're gay, anyway. Otherwise, they'd at least need to be the opposite sex.

I don't doubt that there is something equivalent to sex in heaven. In fact, I'm counting on it, because I'm sure not getting much down here, and it seems God doesn't want me to

You say you like sex, but you're very selective and don't participate in orgies, even though they are among the prime opportunities to get sex with nothing else. So maybe a something else is essential for you, too. But of course, that brings in a lot of other considerations, like relationships, and the possibility for relationships either developing or turning sour for countless reasons. Maybe some here will conform to the stereotype of a finger-wagging Christian prig and consign you to hell just for sex, but many others are not among them. In fact, you can count me as among those who "have a big problem with hell" as it is customarily depicted-- without being quite convinced that it doesn't exist.
 

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Posted by TxGal (# 6984) on :
 

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Thomas DF said:
"Who does he need and why? If he doesn't need his creation to believe in him, then why is that the Only way to get to heaven?"

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Well, if I didn't believe in God, then how in the world would I recognize heaven if I got there? All the people playing harps?

Seriously, I suspect that the fire-and-brimstone image of Hell that we've had pushed down our throats all our lives is just an attempt at creating a graphic image. I find that whenever we discuss forgiveness, it is a lot easier to accept the idea that God could forgive me than it is to forgive myself. I rather expect that if I were to die without fully accepting that forgiveness, then I wouldn't allow myself to enter into the presence of God ("heaven") even if I was assured by others that it was OK for me to do so, thereby condenming myself to eternal separation from God ("hell"). And the idea of spending eternity with a group of people who, like me, cannot forgive themselves, is indeed hell.

[Edited in quote UBB. There's a useful "Practice your UBB thread" in the Styx]

[ 27. May 2004, 01:00: Message edited by: Duo Seraphim ]
 

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Posted by Alt Wally . (# 3245) on :
 
Thomas

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I don't call myself atheist because it is a label I really dislike and implies a desire to destroy religion.

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As to those "mixed reviews", you're way too early. We're a very young species and it will take a few more thousand years to really grow up. As to your Jesuit, I wouldn't expect him to say anything else, but Jesuits are the educators that also consider science and humanity. But I have to disagree with him and think he has it all backwards.

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As has been pointed out, there are a kazillion different beliefs in what hell is. You would think something as grand as a god would have made it very clear as to what it is.

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Originally posted by Alogon

If you're gay, anyway. Otherwise, they'd at least need to be the opposite sex.

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Exactly like me in my thinking, not anatomically. Sheeesh

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I don't doubt that there is something equivalent to sex in heaven. In fact, I'm counting on it, because I'm sure not getting much down here, and it seems God doesn't want me to

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Then just forget it, I don't want to go to heaven!

The more people talk about this the more hell sounds like a great place. I am quickly losing my whole perception of hell being Dante's inferno. Dang, are Christian's losing their touch or what?

I really don't understand why sex is such a big deal to so many religious people. I don't even think it's worthy of much discussion, it's natural.

So much for this tidbit, I'm more interested in all these perceptions of hell.

Thomas
 

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Posted by ThomasDF (# 6760) on :
 

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Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure :

Well, from the Quaker Perspective™ that is exactly what God does, and it doesn't depend on your believing in any particular theology--it's just that we aren't always so good at listening.

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Originally posted by TxGal :

Well, if I didn't believe in God, then how in the world would I recognize heaven if I got there? All the people playing harps?

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No harps!? I LOVE harps. How dare you even suggest there are no harps in heaven. Now I'm permanently traumatized and it's all your fault.

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Seriously, I suspect that the fire-and-brimstone image of Hell that we've had pushed down our throats all our lives is just an attempt at creating a graphic image.

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I find that whenever we discuss forgiveness, it is a lot easier to accept the idea that God could forgive me than it is to forgive myself. I rather expect that if I were to die without fully accepting that forgiveness, then I wouldn't allow myself to enter into the presence of God ("heaven") even if I was assured by others that it was OK for me to do so, thereby condenming myself to eternal separation from God ("hell"). And the idea of spending eternity with a group of people who, like me, cannot forgive themselves, is indeed hell.

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Originally posted by Alt Wally .
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Then I misunderstood your position, although you seem to be careening between several different topics all at once even though this thread is about Hell.

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Personally, and just personally, I think the idea of human progress is illusory and false. Just as false as the notion that there is a God that exists to satisfy human notions of justice. Humans have shown an incredible power to create, and an equally incredible predeliction to destroy. Perhaps du Lubac was waxing polemic in his statement, or maybe he was too deeply influenced by the recent horrors of totalitarianism he had witnessed in Europe. I don't think he was wrong though, when we turn our back on God it is inevitable that we turn on each other.

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I think you're saying a good God would not let differing or false ideas of Hell develop. The alternative is that God forces the belief on us and "lovingly" does not let us fall into error. That would simply be as meaningless as existence without God.

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Originally posted by ThomasDF:

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Originally posted by Alogon

If you're gay, anyway. Otherwise, they'd at least need to be the opposite sex.

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Exactly like me in my thinking, not anatomically. Sheeesh

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Then just forget it, I don't want to go to heaven!

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I really don't understand why sex is such a big deal to so many religious people. I don't even think it's worthy of much discussion, it's natural.

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Originally posted by ThomasDF:
Sorry, Alogon I don't understand any of the points you are trying to make. Would you mind clarifying?

Thomas

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Originally posted by Alogon:

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Originally posted by ThomasDF:
Sorry, Alogon I don't understand any of the points you are trying to make. Would you mind clarifying?

Thomas

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I don't want to be coy, but what if you enumerated whom you would class as "perverts"
and which of these, if any, you think should have sex.

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Originally posted by ThomasDF:
Alogon, I stated why I made that note.

I have no idea where you got the punishment thing from.

"wipe all sex laws off the books.", where did that come from and what does it have to do with an argument about hell?

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I've offered no thoughts about hell. I was asking others about it. I just don't believe there is a hell.

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That's a thought about hell. I'm just fishing for some moral discernment that might give that opinion some weight. The waters seem rather muddy thus far.
 

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Posted by Glenn (# 6517) on :
 
Hell is the ultimate way of saying, "Wait 'til your father gets home!" It is just a threat to keep you in line, very simple. Threats are a training tool. Heaven is the other training tool. You reward desired behaviour with promises of Heaven and condemn undesired behaviour with threats of hell. Heaven and Hell are similar to the dog biscuit and the rolled up newspaper, but more on an intellectual level. The dog owner wants to make sure that his dog doesn't get any funny ideas. The Minister tells the dog owner not to get any funny ideas.

(Oversimplified on purpose with tongue firmly in cheek.)

Glenn

Any of you scholars know who Thomas Aikenhead was?
 

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Posted by TxGal (# 6984) on :
 
Ok, I'm enjoying this - it's refreshing to examine my notions of Heaven and Hell in the light of what they really mean.

Let's start from a different direction.
Premise 1: Everyone has a soul that exists on a different level of reality from the corporal.
Premise 2: After the death of the corporal, the soul continues to exist.

So where does the disembodied soul go? One possibility is that it goes to a different plane of existence. If that is the case, and everyone who has ever lived is still there, it must be a big mushpot of souls. So why not have some organization - all the souls who desire to know God and come into his presence go into one area and all the rest go somewhere else. Now for the souls who desire to know God, his presence would be called Heaven, and they would consider anyplace else Hell. The souls in Hell, who never wanted to know God in first place, wouldn't be any less satisfied, not knowing what they're missing.

Very tongue in cheek - but I wonder if the real problem Thomas has with hell is the use to which most religious people put it?

I know Christianity tends to be very specific about who will and will not enter the presence of God, and it's a shame how some self-proclaimed Christians will use that and the threat of Hell to 'win souls for Christ' - but I wonder if that is really what God wants - I rather suspect not. I consider myself a Christian, but I feel very strongly that it's not my call who gets in and who does not, and I'm probably going to get there one day and be very surprised at just how diverse the population of Heaven is - they may even let some of us Christians in!
 

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Posted by IntellectByProxy (# 3185) on :
 
My opinion on hell:

Once you've been in the presence of God, not being in his presence is hell.

When you see God and he rejects you because you continue to reject him, that's hell.

Hell isn't a place: it's a state of mind.

As to who ends up there? Only God knows. I don't pretend that I will ever know the mind of God so I would never say that someone else is going to hell. How can any of us know that?

Having had a glimpse of God I can imagine what it would be like to not know him, and I desperately don't want the people I love to risk spending eternity knowing they could have stayed with God, but didn't. That's why I witness.
 

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Posted by Janine (# 3337) on :
 
(Note to self: ThomasDF respects and admires strong beliefs, as long as they aren't fervent. Remember to always plaster my strong beliefs on him in a gentle, Quaker-like manner...)
 

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Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :
 
Not bad, IBP, not bad. But it isn't down to you, though well done. God has elected His elite for for First and Better Resurrection, those that reject and neglect that election are in ever increasing danger according to their point on the path, in the process of salvation.

Me included and especially.

The condemnation and warnings in the Bible are for ME.

They aren't for the near 100,000,000,000 people who have not been called by the Father to the Son.

Yet.

As for the stupidity of Angelic rebellion in the OP - a dangerous thing to impute. Lucifer was the smartest entity in creation, at least primus inter pares with two others (Michael and Gabriel). And knew it. As did they.

Read Milton's Paradise Lost.

He discovered pride. Self-determination. Concretized the abstract posits of 'What if?'. Disbelief of God as moral authority. Even as creator. Once you discover the power to lie, to deceive, to plot, to fight, to murder, to define yourself any way you please you distrust all. It's a horrifying fate. And imagine being confronted with a plan to supercede you with rotting meat - monkeys. That the Earth which is your throne is going to be given over to golems, walking, talking dirt.

He had NEVER seen God angry, how could he possibly know what God would do if attacked? He believed God was a liar anyway. Even if he thought ahead he knew he had the MORAL RIGHT and may be God would fold.

Watch the blasphemous film Prophecy and blend Christopher Walken's Gabriel role with Vigo Mortenson's Satan. Self-pity, self-righteousness and visceral, laconically masked, cosmocidal hatred for anything daring to cramp his style.

Those elect to the First and Better Resurrection are nearly as capable of such stupidity. Even with his appalling example.
 

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Posted by sanc (# 6355) on :
 
indeed the mainstream "christianity" concept of hell is hellish to its very corrupt core. wickeds to be burned in hell for eternity? how absurd. for of what purpose will GOD do that? remember that GOD doesn't take any enjoyment in the torment of the wicked. yet GOD is a just GOD who will dispense justice fairly and justly. i myself could not imagine a loving GOD putting even a Hitler in hell to languish for eternity.

so is the concept of modern day "christians" about hell true. here are some points you need to consider before joining their band wagon:

1. is satan in charge of hell as they contend? no way will a just GOD have anything to do with satan in giving sinners their due. no way will HE be in partnership with satan in dispensing just justice to sinners. GOD is the supreme ruler of the universe and every inch of it hell included. the fact is satan will be thrown in hell himself, revelation said that.
2. hell is not eternal as they contend. "eternal fire means, its purpose to forever banish the wicked for eternity after they are ashes is eternal. remember that the fire GOD used to annihilate sodom and gomorrah is "eternal fire" but its extinguished now.
3. there is no hell now. GOD will judge the world and its inhabitants when he comes at the end of the world. JESUS said, "I will come and my reward is with me." HE will reward each one according to what they have done. common sense would tell us that it would be stupid to give the penalty before any hearing and judgement is made. in the last days every one of us will have audience in GOD's court. if there is hell now, it would be unfair to sinners who died 4 thousands years ago and are languishing there now suffering their now without any hearing and day in court.
4. the doctrine that sinners will be punished in hell for eternity will make them immortal. GOD said, the wages of sin is death. sinners will surely die. but if hell is eternal this will make the punishment for sin eternal life in hell not death as prescribed by scriptures.
5. if hell is eternal then CHRIST's sacrifice to give a solution to the sin problem has not solve the sin problem. sin would forever exist in hell. the thing is, GOD would like to put an end to sin and its effect.
6. eternal life of bliss for the righteous wouldnt be that blissful to think that some of their loved ones are swimmming in the lake of fire for eternity.

Dante is not inspired by GOD when he described hell. its a pity a lot of "chistians" adopt some of his descriptions.

hell is GOD's loving expression of justice to put an end to the depraved and anguish filled existence of the wicked. those who chose to lead a life apart from HIS guidance will be forever severed from his care and their existence will be put out for eternity in the lake of fire "hell" at the end of the world.
 

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Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :
 
Basically right sanc, 5/6: 3 - there is sheol, the grave, the hell where medieval Englishmen stored their potatoes and there is Tartaroo, the place of restraint, chains of darkness, 2 Peter 2:4, Milton's Pandemonium, the capital of Hell painted by Blake, which the ancient Greeks knew to be the abode of Titans - Shaitans - Satans - Satan and his demons. And there was is and shall be Gehenna, the Valley of Hinnom, the starting point of the Earth's renewal at the millenium's end with the annihilation of the reprobate.
 

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Posted by Alt Wally . (# 3245) on :
 
Thomas

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I would use the term "true God", but essentially yes. Why would a true God not tell us the truth in the face of lies (as all beliefs in hell can't be right and thus are lies)? Offering truth is not forcing a belief, it is giving people the ability to make the right choice.

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Originally posted by Mousethief:
I didn't used to would like you, IBP, but you've really grown on me in the last few days. Get off.

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Originally posted by Alt Wally .:
When people talk about Hell and Christianity in my experience, what they invariably mean is the Western juridical view of Hell. Thankfully, it is not the view of the Christian East. I've posted this before, but I will again. Heaven & Hell in the Afterlife.

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Originally posted by ThomasDF:
Oh man! You're blowing my mind with this new (to me) concept of Hell.
-- snip --

So, let me see if I get this right. People like rapists, child molesters, mass murderers and so forth get to enjoy themselves for eternity? What about their victims? Something tells me they aren't going enjoy their sins that way. Those who like to rape and kill children, um, why would children be in hell?

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The absolute worst part of Christianity, Judaism and Islam that I find most repulsive is the very idea of Hell and eternal punishment.

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Why would god impose such a horrific punishment simply for not believing?

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As Laura once said, "Arooga, arooga, straw man alert!" I certainly do not believe God punsihes people with eternal torment just for not being Christians. Many (most?) Christians don't, it's just the ones who get the publicity who do

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Inevitably people will quote the Bible, how nice, but totally irrelevant. If there were a word of god, he would only need one word (if that) to make himself perfectly clear to every single human on this planet. He sure as hell wouldn't need a long bag of confusing, contradictory wind like the "holy" books that exist.

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Originally posted by ThomasDF (in the OP):
...The whole story about Lucifer and Hell is like some English children's 19th Century song. First we have the head archangel turning on god and having an angelic war. Are angels really that stupid? How absolutely idiotic can you be? What angel wouldn't know the power of god and how could they possibly be jealous? Oh yeah, and how could angels be killed if they are divine creatures? Well, the story is right out of ancient Greek mythology. Zeus taking on Kronos and the Titans taking sides.

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quote:

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Also posted by ThomasDF:But human progress is like the entire history of this planet. It moves so slowly and our lives are so short that we can't see it. Take the Ice Age, it took, what, several million years to melt off. Who could possible see that progress?

It seemed like yesterday that I was a young child. It seem like moments ago that I was holding my first born. Our time is unbelievably short. In a flash, I will be dead and only bones. No matter how long I live, I will experience and learn next to nothing, even if I had learned all that is known. In a thousand years our prodigy will know a thousand times more than we. They probably won't be able to recognize the progress either. Who knows, just to recognize progress may take another three or four thousand years. Even that is a speck in time.

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If you believe this, then it may not be a stretch to consider that the Bible is a record of humans' interactions with and insights into the Divine. As a Christian, I do believe that that record is inspired, but not necessarily in the way you might have been taught in your fundamentalist upbringing. The Bible is not a unity; it was written over long periods of time and by many authors (even the same book often has multiple authors and redactors). We don't know for certain which texts are oldest, but when we look critically at the text as best we can, we can see a development from the older texts to the more recent ones. And even internally, the stories seem to reveal a God who lets human understanding of God unfold slowly over time. This only makes sense. When you're in kindergarten, no one tries to teach you algebra. There's a process that has to take place - and you yourself admit that this is true of humanity, at least in terms of natural knowlege, such as science, politics, sociology, etc. Why would it not be much more the case with the Transcendent? If we have needed to take time to build upon scientific knowledge, why do you imagine God could reveal Godself in an instant? God could express Godself that way, but it wouldn't result in communication unless we're capable of receiving and understanding the information. Our languages, our minds, our conceptual universe, are all too limited for that.

As you can probably imagine, I'm not one to go with the traditional view of hell. I agree with others that this has been a tool to coerce, historically. The concept in the Bible is not consistent or unified at all. I believe that God is our ultimate goal, so we should be focusing on God. I spent years not wanting to admit I was a Christian because there were elements I disliked about the faith as I'd been taught... and hell was a biggie. But if you have to resort to threats of hell to sell your faith, isn't that an admission that what you have isn't very desirable?
Oh, dear Lord, this has been a long post. But you all were apparently discussing while I was sleeping this morning, so I had a lot of catching up to do! Please excuse me...
 

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Posted by ThomasDF (# 6760) on :
 
Dang, the posts are getting a bit overwhelming. I'm finding each perspective very interesting. There is the belief that souls must be saved at any cost and these people subscribe to eternal pain and damnation thing. But reading all these posts makes me wonder if these religious extremists are a distinct minority of Christians.

As I read all these messages posted while I was asleep, it came to me that there wasn't really anything for me to argue. It was too fascinating to argue with. My perception of hell and those believed it helped considerably to turn me away from Christianity. It was repulsive that they believed in beating the love into you and hell was the pinnacle of that.

The discussion about Lucifer was very interesting. I'd like to go into that more at a later time because I have a screenplay that I've begun on that subject and that kind of discussion would be very helpful. Actually, the story is about Michael and Lucifer. Perfect good-guy bad-guy story.

As to Janine's comment:

quote:

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(Note to self: ThomasDF respects and admires strong beliefs, as long as they aren't fervent. Remember to always plaster my strong beliefs on him in a gentle, Quaker-like manner...)

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quote:

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Originally posted by ThomasDF:
I've had my fill of aggressive and hateful religion and that is what I was referring to. It appears that you could learn a great deal from Quakers.

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Originally posted by ThomasDF:

quote:

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Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure :

Well, from the Quaker Perspective™ that is exactly what God does, and it doesn't depend on your believing in any particular theology--it's just that we aren't always so good at listening.

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Quaker? My highest respect is for Quakers. At least those I've known have been the gentlest people. I've never seen hypocrisy from them or religious fervor. Never mind what I say, your belief is good and healthy and with Quakers, I just listen.

Thomas

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quote:

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I've been polite long enough in showing restraint, but religions and their gods are so remarkably spirit-building that I feel like really expressing myself.

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I certainly hope so and what I hope for. Beliefs should never be timid. I admire and respect strong beliefs.

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Originally posted by Janine:

So, my point was, Thomas, that you seem to admire strong belief very very much but you'd rather it delivered Quaker-quiet? Is that right?

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"...And I tell you this, that you must give an account on judgment day of every idle word you speak. The words you say now reflect your fate then; either you will be justified by them or you will be condemned."

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quote:

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Originally posted by Janine:

Anyway, as in Matthew 12:36 & 37:

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quote:

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You don't have to take anything you don't want to take, love, that's one of the benefits of "free will".

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But-- all you can hope for is that gentle sweet people are the ones who happen to be around you, who happen to care about your eternal fate.

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Maybe all the strident ones can come to me instead. I'll ignore them into submission.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ThomasDF:

quote:

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Originally posted by Janine:

Anyway, as in Matthew 12:36 & 37:

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That passage makes me feel uncomfortable. What good is judgment after the fact?

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Originally posted by Mousethief:

I don't understand. You would prefer judgment before the fact? During the fact? Judgment after the fact is, in fact, the only model of judgment we have any experience of.

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Originally posted by ThomasDF:
It's a very detailed belief and I would rather not go into detail, right now anyway.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ThomasDF:
If I am so special to god, then he should show. If god existed, he would know my honesty.

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A good person brings forth good out of a store of goodness, but an evil person brings forth evil out of a store of evil.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ThomasDF:
There is the belief that souls must be saved at any cost and these people subscribe to eternal pain and damnation thing. But reading all these posts makes me wonder if these religious extremists are a distinct minority of Christians.

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Hurrah! Our work is done

Although, incidentally, I do also believe that people must be saved at any cost... but I also believe God willingly and lovingly already paid that cost.

(Have just re-read that and it sounded quite cheesey so sorry about that.)
 

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Posted by ThomasDF (# 6760) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Mousethief:

quote:

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Originally posted by ThomasDF:
It's a very detailed belief and I would rather not go into detail, right now anyway.

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Who was complaining about people not wanting to engage in discussion?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:

Does God have to put on a special proof of his existence just for you?

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Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Branching off discussions are part of the culture here...until a host comes and kills the bacteria.

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Originally posted by ThomasDF:

quote:

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Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:

Does God have to put on a special proof of his existence just for you?

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Yes, he does. If we are his creation then we are that important.

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But I don't think you realize what a small request that is.

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I'm not asking for a burning bush or parting the Red Sea. Each one of us should be every bit as important as Moses or all those Jews leaving Egypt. In the Bible, god and Jesus did a bunch of things. I still can't figure how ancient people were so cavalier about them. I sure wouldn't be. What Makes people like Abraham, Noah, Moses and all those "special" people who were given so much attention more important than me?

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If I am a creation of god, then why should I see myself any less important than anyone else?

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Why don't I have the right to know the truth with proof?

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How can a god be a god and deny it?

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What I want would take absolutely no effort for a god. It would less effort for him than it would take for me to blink an eye.

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For me, faith in something is based on knowledge and experience that gives me a tangible reason to have that faith.

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I can have faith that my lamp is god, but that doesn't make my lamp god. I see religions just like that lamp, only there is a store full of lamps and I have no interest in playing the guessing game in which lamp to pick.

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A lot is said about god's love. Real love is something shown not just said. Without showing love, it doesn't mean a thing and that applies to a god as well.

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Originally posted by Ophthalmos:

Right. So you're expecting PROOF of God's existence? You'll be waiting a very long time.

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It's a bloody HUGE request! It means God interrupting with human free will to remove any doubt that He exists.

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No more important. They were just given special roles. I doubt if you asked the average Israelite in those days they would know an AWFUL lot about God, except that he opened up a covenant with His people.

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You shouldn't.

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Yes, it would. But he values your free will to "seek and find" so much that he is willing to offer you the chance to reject him. With proof of God, it would seem difficult to reject God.

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Why not? Why do you expect truth to be so easy to come by?

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That's why Christianity revolves around a minor figure called Jesus. Think about it. How can God show love without stepping into his creation and loving us down here?

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Actually he can - through creation, through free will, through other people...the list is as endless as you want to make it and can credibly claim.

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Originally posted by ThomasDF:
I am being denied free will because information is being withheld that will allow me to make my own free will decision.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mousethief:

quote:

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Originally posted by ThomasDF:
I am being denied free will because information is being withheld that will allow me to make my own free will decision.

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Can you tell us what you think "free will" means? because from this post it's clear that you don't think it means what I think it means.

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Originally posted by Thomas DF:
Credible claim is the problem. Everything is based on one book and nothing else. I think it is reasonable to require more tangible evidence.

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Now the Lord God hath opened to me by his invisible power that every man was enlightened by the divine light of Christ; and I saw it shine through all, and the they that believed in it came out of condemnation and came to the light of life and became the children of it, but they that hated it and did not believe in it, were condemned by it, though they made a profession of Christ. This I saw in the pure openings of the Light without the help of any man, neither did I then know where to find it in the Scriptures; though afterward searching the Scriptures, I found it. For I saw in that Light and Spirit which was before Scripture was given forth...

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quote:

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Faustus: How comes it, then, that thou art out of hell?
Mephistopheles:Why, this is hell, nor am I out of it:
Thinkst thou that I who saw the face of God
and tasted the eternal joys of heaven
Am not tormented with ten thousand hells
In being deprived of everlasting bliss?

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Originally posted by Glenn:
I find it amazing that people can sound so logical and then abruptly quote the bible as though it was the word of god and absolute truth.

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Originally posted by LydaRose:
Also, I don't believe there are too many people who don't have a certain amount of evil in them -Christ's salvation pardons but it doesn't remove the possibility of doing evil. And I don't believe there are many people who are totally evil. It's all very well to speak of segregating evil from good, however, evil and good tend to reside in mixtures within people who can't be in two places at once such as Heaven and Hell.

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Originally posted by Mousethief:
No.

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Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:

If you want to get technical, it's 66 books (give or take the Apocrypha). Not to mention the Inward Light, which is more important (from the Quaker Pespective™ anyway).

So what do you want Him to do, hold a press conference?

You've said such nice things about Quakers that I hate to be hard on you, so let me just quote George Fox:

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Originally posted by Father Gregory:
I have no problem with hell now that I have discovered The River of Fire.

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Originally posted by ThomasDF:
saysay: What makes you think people who don't accept god are ignorant and selfish? I've certainly seen my share of ignorant and selfish Christians... ah, but they aren’t "true" Christians, right?

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Originally posted by ThomasDF:

quote:

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Originally posted by Father Gregory:
I have no problem with hell now that I have discovered The River of Fire.

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-- snip --
Though I haven't gotten to the Hell thing yet, I do believe I know where he is headed.

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There are indeed those who do, but they have not as of yet chosen to post here.

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Originally posted by Grits:
How can one accept the God of the Bible, in all His omniscience, and then turn around and try to fit Him into what they perceive to be "fair" and "loving"?

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Look at His responses to Job: "Would you discredit my justice? Would you condemn me to justify yourself?" How can we question God's plan? If I truly believe in the sovreignty of God, I have to believe in the plan He has set for us, whether it strikes the mind and heart of modern man as being equitable.

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Jesus Christ believed in hell(Matt. 5:22; Luke 16:23). He believed there are those who will spend eternity there (Matt. 25:41-46; Mark 9:43).

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God does love us. He sent us His Son to provide us a way to avoid the gates of hell. That gift IS His love.

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What a cruel universe.
 

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Posted by ThomasDF (# 6760) on :
 
Grits:

One of the reasons I am skeptical of Biblical quotes is because of the numerous translations and especially the fact that King James most certainly took liberties with his translation. I may be mistaken, but I do believe the most accurate translation of the original books is the Greek Orthodox. That's because I do believe (if my memory serves me right) most of the books were originally written in Greek and the rest were first translated into Greek.

It is a historical fact that the King James IV & I version is not an exact translation. At the time of King James, Christianity (especially his version) was a very violet and ruthless religion and that certainly got put into the King James Bible. King James was a staunch authoritarian in believing in the divine right of Kings (harsh, absolute and unquestioned authority). The King James version of god's authority and power correlates directly with his belief in the power of the King. He makes god and even Jesus more monarchs than gods.

I just hope I'm not digging myself a hole here. If someone challenges me who really knows the history, I'm going to be forced to do some research to refresh my memory. But it isn't that hard to rip the King James Bible to shreds with historical facts. I see the King James version as the word of King James, not the word of god.

Thomas
 

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Posted by Sienna (# 5574) on :
 
Well, a couple of points -
King James didn't DO the translation, he commissioned the translation. And while it certainly has its issues, it was state of the art scholarship for its time. If you're truly interested, check out the book "God's Secretaries"

And most of the other modern translations went back to the original language and started from there, so King James' inadequacies aren't particularly relevant.

Sorry. History geek mode over now.

Regards, Sienna
 

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Posted by Grits (# 4169) on :
 
I agree. And I rarely quote from the KJV. You can use any translation you prefer. I think the meaning stays the same.

Yes, the NT was written in Greek, but I don't think that gives the Greek Orthodox translation a real advantage.

Rob, let's see... I don't think God works by analogy. I think He works by spirituality through reality. God is not an analogy, nor is His Word, nor is His plan.

Yes, indeed, Job did want to question God's plan, and look at the answer he received! How dare we question the plan of the Creator of everything! We have become so empowered, so self-sufficient, so self-fulfilling, that we simply can't bring ourselves to let Him be Lord of all. Why, what would that make us -- chopped liver? We have forgotten and buried the Creator and recreated Him as a somewhat admired older brother who is really cool, as long as he does what we want. God have mercy on us.

Anyway you want to interpret eternal, eternity, eternal fire, let's face it: Jesus said it's there, it's real, somebody's going there, I'm here to help you keep out of it. What's to really interpret there?

quote:

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What a cruel universe.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sienna:
If you're truly interested, check out the book "God's Secretaries"

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quote:

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Originally posted by Grits:
Yes, the NT was written in Greek, but I don't think that gives the Greek Orthodox translation a real advantage.

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Originally posted by Sienna:
/tangent/
yes, it's one of my favorites, too, Grits.
/tangent off/

So basically, Thomas, what you seem to be saying on several threads is that, until God behaves in the manner you demand and furnishes the proof you think any reasonable person has a right to require, you refuse to believe in God.

Please let me know if I've misstated - I'm trying to understand your arguments here.

Regards,
Sienna

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quote:

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Originally posted by ThomasDF:
Simply putting it, how can I believe in god if I don't even know he exists?

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Originally posted by Josephine:
We mostly use the RSV or the NKJV, and mostly avoid the NIV and any paraphrases. But there's not an official "Orthodox" translation.

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Originally posted by Grits:
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

If you're going to be a Christian, you've got to keep it in perspective. It's not about this universe.

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Originally posted by Mousethief:
I believe in God because I don't KNOW for sure, and yet still have decided to believe based on the inconclusive evidence I've seen, because that evidence seems better than the inconclusive evidence which points in the other direction.

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Same here. I think being a Christian isn't like seeing a brilliant flash of light and a booming voice, "Yea, verily yea. I art God. Believe, repent. Worship me."

Rather, sometimes, it is sitting down, taking a deep breath, looking at beauty and love in the world. And it is "looking at the evidence" - whether it be the beauty of scripture, Christ's resurrection, and the power of changed lives.

Of course, it is totally nice feeling warm and squishy inside feeling that God loves you and that you're in his hands for all eternity.

There's been a couple of times, where I have to say, "God, I believe in you whether you like or not." Those are the times when there are no warm, squishy feelings. Those are the times when I feel abandoned and forgotten by God - when I'm in pain and despair. And those are the times when I look at the evidence for God again - and even though I can't feel anything in my heart, my head/logic tells me its still more plausible for God's existence than against it.
 

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Posted by Eigon (# 4917) on :
 
If I heard a voice booming "Yea, verily, I art God" I'd be deeply suspicious.
 

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Posted by krill (# 6537) on :
 
ThomasDF, man you sound exactly like I did when I was younger. This brings back memories.

I was raised a Lutheran most my life, attended church most every sunday, and had no clue why I was a Christian. I didn't have that perpetual (goofy) smile plastered on my face all the time, like the Christian Club members at school. Quoting scripture and taking about bunnies or some other non-sexual, pseudo innocent, mundane subject.

I believed in God, I just didn't know to what benefit. Why do I have to choose either Heaven or Hell, did I ask to be here? Talk about giving us a choice, where was my choice before I was born, cause I know I wouldn't have chosen this!!!

But, as an intellectual(questionable) and a voracious reader, I could not discount the existance of something more than just coincidence and luck, with a lot of we're not sures thrown in for clarification.

So, to that end I decided to try one scripture, sorry got to use one, and see what happens. I decided to seek God heart, mind, body, and soul. I hear the Preachers tellin' me about being born again, and how its like the difference between selling a house but keeping one room to yourself and selling the whole house.

Now when I gave it all up to God, I knew in that moment that He was real. Because He gave me something that I thought I would never have. I cannot prove it, as it is a personal experience, but I can say that no one will ever convince me that I just imagined it or that I was hypnotized.

I told you this for one reason. If you want to know if there is a God, you have to ask the questions that you are asking. But though you will seek the "Guru on the mountain top", you will eventually come to realize that you are the only one that can answer that question. You don't learn by being told, but by experiencing and observing.

As for Hell, yes I think it exists, but I like a quote from the movie "The Prophecy", when Lucifer said that we Humans never understood that, Hell, is being seperated from God. I think it's more of a denial of the things you lusted for in life, while roasting over a toasty fire. We will still be hungry, no food. thirsty, no drink, lonely, no companions, (which kills the party thread) as its theological opposite, Heaven, is never needing for anything.

And as some others state, I believe that on Judgement Day, God will let you decide where you really belong. You create your own Hell.

And finally, and please don't roast me for not knowing the Chp. & Vs., but, Jesus tells some people when they ask Him to describe Heaven, "You can not know what it is like." So any dissertation is purely speculative, and that's scriptural.(Okay, so I used two, sue me)

You have just begun your journey, but he that truly seeks the Lord should look away from Him to find Him.(a stupid, on-the-spot, fortune cookie, proverb )

Good Luck & God Bless...oops

[ 30. May 2004, 14:51: Message edited by: krill ]
 

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Posted by krill (# 6537) on :
 
sowwy, sowwy, sowwy, but the edit time ran out before I could add this...

In the final analysis, we all choose a GOD. A God is the thing that we desire most. If the God we choose just happens to be "The God", then we go to Heaven.(another gross oversimplification)
 

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Posted by J. J. Ramsey (# 1174) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by ThomasDF:

So I do agree with Alexander Kalomiros' point of view, but only with forceful Christians.

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Can you rephrase that? It doesn't look too coherent.
 

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Posted by ThomasDF (# 6760) on :
 

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Originally posted by Mousethief:

quote:

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Originally posted by ThomasDF:
Simply putting it, how can I believe in god if I don't even know he exists?

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Actually it's the things you don't KNOW that you BELIEVE in. Nobody says, "I believe I live at such-and-such an address." You say "I live at such-and-such an address," or "I know I live at such-and-such an address."

I believe in God because I don't KNOW for sure, and yet still have decided to believe based on the inconclusive evidence I've seen, because that evidence seems better than the inconclusive evidence which points in the other direction.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Grits:

Thomas, I think the only thing you're lacking is... faith. You've got to let go of your inhibitions and preconceptions, and let yourself be free to believe on a spiritual level.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen

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Originally posted by krill:
sowwy, sowwy, sowwy, but the edit time ran out before I could add this...

In the final analysis, we all choose a GOD. A God is the thing that we desire most. If the God we choose just happens to be "The God", then we go to Heaven.(another gross oversimplification)

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Originally posted by J. J. Ramsey:

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Originally posted by ThomasDF:

So I do agree with Alexander Kalomiros' point of view, but only with forceful Christians.

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Can you rephrase that? It doesn't look too coherent.

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Kalomiros talked about Western theology portraying god as a rather nasty dictator

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2. The Vulgate was not translated from the Septuagint (LXX) but from the Hebrew that Jerome was able to find in the 4th century when he visited the Jews of Palestine. The only exception is that books he couldn't find Hebrew originals for, he translated from the Greek. This is what gave rise to the "deuterocanonical" label which eventually culminated in those books being tossed out of Protestant Bibles in the 19th century.

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Originally posted by ThomasDF:

Faith is very powerful and from what I've seen, it can also be very dangerous if it is blind faith. Bad things often happen when people don't question or think about what they believe.

I mentioned Jim Jones. I wish you could seen these people and known them. Their faith in Jones as a kind of prophet of god was so powerful. <snip>
I agree the faith of hope is so important, but that hope should never be desperation where we grasp at anything. We have the ability to question for very good reasons, and if there is a god, then he gave us that ability, that protection and to not use it would be an offense against god.

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Originally posted by Glenn:
Your reply was clearly a personal attack.

What were the rules about personal attacks on this board?

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Originally posted by ThomasDF:

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Originally posted by J. J. Ramsey:

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Originally posted by ThomasDF:

So I do agree with Alexander Kalomiros' point of view, but only with forceful Christians.

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Can you rephrase that? It doesn't look too coherent.

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Sorry. Basically putting it, Kalomiros talked about Western theology portraying god as a rather nasty dictator. To an extent that's true. Those like the Hard-Shell Baptist, Jehovah’s Witness, the Holy Rollers, the Mormons and many other Bible thumpers are exactly what Kalomiros defined. It's the old "You better believe or else" folks. But they do not represent all Western Christians.
-- snip --
Does that clarify?

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Originally posted by Mousethief:
It sounds as though you are saying, "How can people who appear so rational be different from me in some major respect?" This appears to say more about you, than about the people you are prejudiced against.

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Originally posted by Glenn:
There, I've just read my offending post again, and I think that if you read carefully, you'll see that I mean no disrepect to anyone.

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Originally posted by ThomasDF:
Duo Seraphim:

My example was only to show just how dangerous blind faith can be. My perception of faith have nothing to do with cults. I have faith in a lot of things. As one person mentioned, faith has a lot to do with hope. When it comes to believing on god, I have no desire to hope there is a god. It is far too important to simply have faith in. If I know god exists, then I'll know exactly what I have to do as well as when and how.

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Originally posted by Mousethief:
I've never had any revelation or any inner whatsit that has convinced me that God exists. My belief in God is entirely inferential.

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Originally posted by Mousethief:
To the conclusion that my belief is inferential? Or to the belief?

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Allow me to simplify, why do you believe in god?
 

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Posted by Father Gregory (# 310) on :
 
6 billion people waiting for Reader Alexis' answer! Me included. Go for it brother! (Trouble is that it's 9.30 am in the UK and I've got to wait another few hours until he wakes up!)
 

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Posted by Alt Wally . (# 3245) on :
 
I'm presently not Mousethief, but I thought I would chip in anyway. I come from a largely atheist/agnostic background. My parents never took me to church, never talked about religion and remain suspicious of it. What I felt was a progressive feeling of "something" being there which I can't explain or put my finger on beyond saying I felt beckoned and compelled by it for lack of a better term.

I moved into looking into religion cautiously and with a lot of doubt. I read a fair amount about Buddhism and then started up as a fairly liberal Christian I guess. To fast forward over a lot of stuff, over time I felt an increasing sense of the presence I mentioned. A number of coincidences and a few strange experiences have led me to where I am now. Often I feel it would be much simpler to simply remain an agnostic because I would be much less troubled by the complexities that I think belief introduces. I still feel like I could reject God, and many of my actions probably do, but I still have this simultaneous terrifying/comforting feeling that God is there.

I found the Mountain of Silence to be one of the best treatments on the human experience of God I've read, just as a side note.
 

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Posted by Canadian Phil (# 6202) on :
 
Thomas;

Just a quick clarification. When I used the term liberal, I wasn't necessariliy meaning leftist. I was refering to philosophical liberalism which is, in its conservatave and leftist form, the dominant ideology in the West right now (even if that looks like it is breaking down). What the political right and left share is a common way of knowing, even if that doesn't lead them to the same conclusions. Among the more germane simiularities to our discussion is a confidence in the 'scientific method' in which it is believed that we can interact with the world without bringing any bias. That is blatently silly as post-modernists point out, but it is a serious blind spot in our own society. It also gives impetus to our culture's assumption that parental silence about religious matters is leaving the door open. Given the cultural understanding of religion and its underlying hostility to religious worldviews, the ground simply isn't level.

Peace,
Phil
 

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Posted by Canadian Phil (# 6202) on :
 
Oh, shoot. Wrong thread!!! This one should have been with the educating children thread Thomas started.

Disoreintedly yours,
Phil
 

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Posted by JimT (# 142) on :
 

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Originally posted by Alt Wally .:
A number of coincidences and a few strange experiences have led me to where I am now.

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Originally posted by ThomasDF:
Duo Seraphim:

It seems I'm not getting across what I mean about faith and believing in god. I'll try to word it different.

What I want is no different than what Christians claim they have, that spark or light that tells you that you have connected with god. That revelation, if you will. I do not want bells and whistles or even knowledge, though knowing god would be knowledge in itself.

Though the teachings of Jesus inspire me on a humanitarian level, they do not inspire me on a spiritual level and convince me that god exists.

What I see is that people self stimulate themselves into believing god has touched them and from that their faith comes. This is a very deep and profound experience. Of course I don't know what is in the mind and heart another and I could be wrong. God could very well be touching them and that possibility is why I never close my mind to the possibility that god exists.

Does this help explain it better?

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