Ship of Fools: Hell: Vicar duped into having sex

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Posted by Nightlamp (# 266) on :

Yet, another vicar (Philip Gray) has been caught with his pants down and there is no doubt, a five-year-old child with his DNA. The locals let the cat out the bag when he criticised a TV programme for exploiting the sanctity of marriage.

quote:
Though Mrs Denton-Cardew said that she had a "loving" relationship for several years with Mr Gray, who has five other children from his 29-year marriage to his wife Anne, the priest made a complaint to police earlier this year that he had been duped into having sex with her

.

No one has ever duped me into having sex?
<snip>

quote:
He interrupted his morning service to tell the congregation of 50 from the pulpit: "Many of you will have heard serious allegations about me. There is another explanation, however, in which I am the victim and not the perpetrator of a sinister scheme

Several things of note he won't resign and the bishop can't sack him and the congregation think he is great.
I wonder if he should resign?

Stories are found in telegraph and local newspaper (using makeashorterlink)

[ 18. June 2003, 23:37: Message edited by: Sarkycow ]

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

I'm pretty sure the bishop can sack him - this is one of the few circumstances in which that can happen. There are shedloads of procedure to go through to make it happen though.

Posted by Henry Troup (# 3722) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
Yet, another vicar (...) has been caught with his pants down ...

Nightlamp omits the laugh factor of the parish name - St Mary the Virgin! [Killing me]

Posted by Nunc Dimittis (# 848) on :

[Killing me]

Posted by Cosmo (# 117) on :

It would take an awful lot of procedures to get him out especially as he has 1) the Freehold and 2) the apparent backing of the Parish. The Telegraph's story was written in best Daily Mail style however. I love the bit where the journo calls him 'high church' (Fr Gray is Head of the Catholic League that tries for reunion with the Holy See) and says "Mr Gray, who likes to be called 'Father',". Terrible but irrestible. Much better would be 'Anglo-Catholic priest has sex with woman shock - Bishop comes out in sympathy'.

Cosmo

Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :

How come nobody ever dupes me into having sex? [Waterworks]

Reader Alexis

Posted by Laura (# 10) on :

This reminds me of this marvelous song, the The Vicar and the Frog.

Posted by Clyde (# 752) on :

I'm interested in the fact that he was 'duped into having sex with her'
I am wondering what 'dupe' was employed. If I knew then it might help me to avoid falling into the same trap.

It concerns me that this poor fellow must have had sex and when he was on his way home suddenly realised, "My goodness I have been duped into having sex". All quite alarming that us poor males can be put upon in this way. [Big Grin]

Posted by Louise (# 30) on :

quote:
Much better would be 'Anglo-Catholic priest has sex with woman shock - Bishop comes out in sympathy'.

But Cosmo, he does claim he was drugged and jumped on by the woman, so perhaps he was bravely upholding standards after all.

I hope this doesn't give ideas to any Anglo Catholic would-be Joyce McKinneys.

L.

Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :

quote:
"In this day and age when you hear about paedophile vicars, what he has done is really not all that awful. But his claim that Belinda somehow made him have sex does seem rather incredible."

(from the first link Nightlamp posted).

This is exactly what I felt reading this. What did she do, hold him down and rape him? Or is she some kind of Jezebel and hyponotically enticed him? Or maybe she slipped him a mickey (drugged him)? I am honestly baffled how a grown man 'is the victim of "a sinister scheme"'? Is anyone buying this in the AC upper level? Anywhere?

I hope the man takes on some responsibility for the life he brought into the world and also stops this foolish nonsense. I want to kick his a*& in Christian love. Not because he made a mistake, but because of his blame-shifting for the mistake he made. There is a precious child out there and a deluded woman. Argh. Ok, I will shut up.

Posted by Dyfrig (# 15) on :

Perhaps the dupess used some Pimms No.1 cup to encourage the poor Father into her arms.

Posted by Ham'n'Eggs (# 629) on :

I can just picture the scene:

"Would you mind awfully? My pipes are blocked, and I wondered if you would be so kind as to loan me your plunger? Please excuse me while while I limbo-dance under the sink, so as to be able to provide moral assistance.

Ooooh. It's a bit tight under here. I'm going to have to remove my clothes. That's better. Now, I can see much better where your tool needs to go. Let me guide it for you...."

Posted by Rex Monday (# 2569) on :

In some jurisdictions, it is possible to prosecute a woman for raping a man -- although certain mechanical aspects may be count against this, it is recognised that coercion can take place at many levels. And there are examples of DNA stealing, where the hapless man deposits his leaving card in what he imagines is a safe place, only for refiling to take place after he leaves.

However: these are few and far between. The balance of probabilities are against the fecund Father, I fear. I know it isn't a glass house in which he lives, and his stones remained unthrown (if not undrained), but something of the metaphor appears apt.

R

Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :

But Rex Monday, he wasn't coerced into having sex, he was duped. What on earth does that mean?

Reader Alexis

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
he was duped. What on earth does that mean?

Reader Alexis

I think it means he thought he was going to enjoy it, but didn't....or maybe she was wearing a wonderbra.

Posted by Professor Yaffle (# 525) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

quote:

Originally posted by Mousethief:
he was duped. What on earth does that mean?

Reader Alexis
I think it means he thought he was going to enjoy it, but didn't.

I think the words are "get away with" rather than "enjoy".

{Please discover how to do quotes correctly.}

[ 12. May 2003, 16:49: Message edited by: Nightlamp ]

Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
or maybe she was wearing a wonderbra.

"I thought I was having sex with somebody really stacked! Boy was I duped!"

Reader Alexis

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

'He asked water, and she gave him milk; she brought forth butter in a lordly dish/ She put her hand to the nail and her right hand to the workmen's hammer....' (Judges 5:18)

But more likely he wishes to suggest that she told him she was unable to conceive and so he was duped as to the possibility of a child. She was 43 at the time, and, though perfectly pleasant to look at, nothing extraordinary. He denied paternity, apparently, and it had to be proved in court some years ago to get his name on the child's birth certificate.

Spot the bastard.

[Mad]

Posted by Louise (# 30) on :

Amos, he seems to have been claiming that he was drugged and date-raped.

quote:
Officers were obliged to investigate claims that Mr Gray might have been drugged and had sex without knowing it. They submitted a file to the Crown Prosecution Service, which dropped the case last week.

As one of his parishioners noted

quote:
"But his claim that Belinda somehow made him have sex does seem rather incredible. It is a shame he did not just admit that he was the father straight away and then it would all have been forgotten about."

Clearly our dear Anglo Catholic Fathers are going to have to start taking precautions that nobody's spiking their gin. They should drink straight from the bottle, be wary of accepting gin from strangers (and church organists) and never leave their drinks unattended, lest they wake up with a terrible hangover, their vestments in disarray and the CSA after them for child support.

There should be a public safety film.

L.

Posted by Adrian1 (# 3994) on :

This sounds like a very sorry story indeed and one that does nothing for the standing of the ordained ministry or the catholic cause in the Church of England. Whatever the details, resignation must surely be the only honourable course open to Fr Gray if there is a grain of truth in any of the allegations. Certainly the Bishop should urge it upon him. If it was considered appropriate, removal under the Incumbents (Vacation of Benefices) Measure would be possible, although as Cosmo has already pointed out it is not a pleasant procedure and most people are naturally reluctant to see it used. Resignation would negate the need for that though.

[Wink]

Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :

It is possible for a man to be raped; often that isn't taken seriously enough. And there are lots of date-rape drugs around these days.

My *guess* would be that he simply didn't want to be found out. But his allegations should be investigated--to ensure fairness for future rape victims, if nothing else.

Whatever happened, I especially feel for the little boy, and for the vicar's family. [Tear]

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

Thank you Louise, I'd missed that bit. Hmm. He can't be suggesting she put viagra in his cocoa. He really must be suggesting he was given that great one-two punch of 'knock-out, knock-up' drops, possibly via saturated hankie clamped suddenly to his mouth and nostrils while he was rapt in contemplation. One moment he had his eye on Our Lady of Walsingham, the next he was waking up with a familiar feeling of tristesse.

This is a bigger farce than the Dean of Lincoln and Verity Freestone.

Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :

Now come on guys. 'frin, ooops, umm, the woman didn't dupe anyone into having sex - in fact he said it was practical following from the theory in marriage prep classes.

<ahem>

Viki

Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :

Men can be raped, and I don't want to make light of that, but again I keep coming back to the word duped. "I didn't realize it was sex, yerroner, I thought she was just cleaning my willy with her tongue."

Reader Alexis

Posted by ChrisT (# 62) on :

One more reason to join the clergy. I'll send off for the application forms forthwith...

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :

Anecdotal, I admit, but a quick email survey of my friends reveals that none of them feel they have ever been duped into having sex.

One did feel he had been duped into his first marriage, however.

Posted by Clyde (# 752) on :

I've been on this Ship for a long time now and not once has anybody tried to dupe me into having sex. Is there something wrong with me and do I need counselling. [Help]

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
"I didn't realize it was sex, yerroner, I thought she was just cleaning my willy with her tongue."

Had they stopped there, he wouldn't be in the mess he is now.

p.s. to Clyde: They obviously think you're just too darn smart to be duped. Just like I couldn't fool you that the Queen was a muslim.

Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :

Praps she claimed to have a word from the Lord?

Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :

FWIW:

Info on dating violence against men:
Dating Violence.org
Read the section just past the picture of Dr. McEvoy.

Rape drugs--Rape Crisis Center, Santa Monica, CA

More rape-related links--RAINN.org

Posted by Merseymike (# 3022) on :

Yes, its not terribly convincing, is it. Wickedly, I immediately thought what a surprise it was to discover a High Church Father into the vagina business, and then thought, given Cosmo's revelation, that he is probably doing what most Catholic priests of the heterosexual persuasion do with their housekeeper in any case.... [Big Grin]

Posted by kenwritez (# 3238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Merseymike:
Yes, its not terribly convincing, is it. Wickedly, I immediately thought what a surprise it was to discover a High Church Father into the vagina business, and then thought, given Cosmo's revelation, that he is probably doing what most Catholic priests of the heterosexual persuasion do with their housekeeper in any case....

Mike, apart from your post being complete bullshit, how does it not break Commandment 3?

Posted by Fiddleback (# 2809) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Merseymike:
... he is probably doing what most Catholic priests of the heterosexual persuasion do with their housekeeper in any case....

What? Paying her a small wage to clean the house and make meals?

Posted by Adrian1 (# 3994) on :

Maybe I've led a sheltered life but I fail to see how a man can possibly be raped - by a woman that is. Of course she might handle some of his organs in a certain way without his consent and if she did so that would constitute an assault. However, I cannot see how she could possibly rape him. Can anyone enlighten me? [Wink]

Posted by Nightlamp (# 266) on :

quote:
Originally posted by kenwritez:
Mike, apart from your post being complete bullshit, how does it not break Commandment 3?

I am trying to find the personal attack in what merseymike said, I see unsubstantiated rumour but nothing more.

Posted by IntellectByProxy (# 3185) on :

Men can have erections when asleep and/or drugged - the errectile response is, to some extent (ahem), autonomous, so I guess one could be knocked out, manually stimulated and then taken advantage of without consent. That constitutes rape. I bet it's rare though.

Posted by Nightlamp (# 266) on :

Another confusing aspect is that it took him five years to notice he had been duped. Oh crumbs I just remembered I had drunk to much gin after that funeral and something odd happened and there was only me and the organist at the church.

Posted by Merseymike (# 3022) on :

Kenwritez - why are you so humourless ? Your avatar is so, so accurate.

Posted by Fiddleback (# 2809) on :

quote:
Originally posted by HE the Exarch of Ultima Thule:
However, I cannot see how she could possibly rape him. Can anyone enlighten me?

A strap-on and a bottle of Johnsons baby oil is all that is required. I'm not sure how pregnancy would ensue from such a union though.

Posted by Louise (# 30) on :

Re my earlier comment on Joyce Mckinney, that was the famous case of the former Miss Wyoming who kidnapped a Mormon missionary she fancied, chained him to a bed and had her wicked way with him.

She was also famous for her comment 'I loved Kurt so much I would have skied down Mount Everest nude with a red carnation up my nose for him'

It greatly exercised the British tabloids at the time. I would post a link but the only one I can find would be unsuitable even for T&T. Interested parties should type her name into Google with the terms 'mormon' 'sex' and 'chains' (but I don't recommend this at work).

The clergy really must take more precautions.

L.

Posted by Dyfrig (# 15) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Adrian1:
This ... does nothing for ... the catholic cause in the Church of England.

And that sort of sectarian comment does nothing for the Catholicity of Christ's ekklesia

Posted by I_am_not_Job (# 3634) on :

Those wondering how a male can be raped by a female. I believe the most common court cases are regarding older women and underage boys. There was a case in the papers ages ago about some 15 year old boys and their teacher. Here the 'technica;' sense of rape was being tested, i.e. having sex with a minor is deemed rape for prosecutions sake. I'm afraid I can't remember the result of the case though. At the time, the press were much excised as to whether or not it was possible. I think most said the kids were probably gagging for it. Though, I guess in some cases some poor impressionable lad may be 'duped' or even raped.

Posted by Janine (# 3337) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Fiddleback:

quote:
Originally posted by HE the Exarch of Ultima Thule:
However, I cannot see how she could possibly rape him. Can anyone enlighten me?
A strap-on and a bottle of Johnsons baby oil is all that is required. I'm not sure how pregnancy would ensue from such a union though.

two thoughts :

*it would be Johnson's, and
*because it's baby oil, silly.

Posted by Fiddleback (# 2809) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Janine:

*because it's baby oil, silly.

Oh, of course! What was I thinking?

Posted by Smart Alex (# 1916) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
The clergy really must take more precautions.

I have heard and acted upon this suggestion. From now on, I will be wearing two condoms at all times to ensure that, should I fall foul of such a terrible attack, I will at least be secure in the confidence that I will not also be required to provide financial support for any offspring ensuing from such an encounter.... [Wink]

Posted by IntellectByProxy (# 3185) on :

And you should frisk all women whom you encounter and shun all those found to be carrying baby oil.

Posted by Adrian1 (# 3994) on :

Dyfrig said

quote:
And that sort of sectarian comment does nothing for the Catholicity of Christ's ekklesia

I said it precisely because I care deeply about the Catholic cause - within the Church of England and beyond it. Nothing causes me more sadness than to see it damaged by priests who ought to know better!

[Mad]

Posted by kenwritez (# 3238) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Merseymike:
Kenwritez - why are you so humourless ? Your avatar is so, so accurate.

Ah, you were joking, then? I apologize for my complaint. I thought you were categorizing all straight RC priests as schtupping their housekeepers.

Posted by multipara (# 2918) on :

kenwritez and MM, neither of you has ever seen the average "Straight RC priest's housekeeper"....the main criterion is that such a female be postmenopausal!

cheers,

m

Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
kenwritez and MM, neither of you has ever seen the average "Straight RC priest's housekeeper"....the main criterion is that such a female be postmenopausal!

And this means they don't have sex? You're, you're, you're AGEIST, that's what you are.

Maybe that's just so she can't possibly get pregnant. [Devil]

Reader Alexis

Posted by multipara (# 2918) on :

Too bloody right I'm ageist-the older the better.

Be assured, O Mousethief,that the average priest's housekeeper (and God knows they are few and far between these days) is a widow of impeccable character who is not going to bother with after-hours clerical fumblings! Now how do I know?-from the horse's mouth (various geriatric aunties and whatnot).

cheers,

m

Posted by jugular (# 4174) on :

Your auntie's are horses? How curious!

Posted by multipara (# 2918) on :

Retired brood mares, ectually.

Posted by Gambit (# 766) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Clyde:
I've been on this Ship for a long time now and not once has anybody tried to dupe me into having sex. Is there something wrong with me and do I need counselling.

try...to...restrain...self

Yes

damn....failed

Gambit
(only just saw this and couldn't resist)

Posted by Nightlamp (# 266) on :

The problem is that she played the organ to well and that is why he was duped.

{stupid typo}

[ 15. May 2003, 14:54: Message edited by: Nightlamp ]

Posted by Kenwritez (# 3238) on :

I don't understand this priest's contention he was "duped" into sexual intercourse. It's like saying he was "duped" into dancing ballet.

Now, I *do* have several theories that might explain his claim, in order to make things more clear, at least to me:

(We must assume this vicar knew nothing of sexual intercourse.)

1) HYGIENE: He was eating tacos in the nude and dripped Cholula sauce on his willy and his housekeeper offered to clean it off for him. (However, this contradicts Pyx_e's wonderful "hot sauce as a sexual aid" experience in T'n'T, so perhaps not.)

2) RELIEF: His housekeeper complained of itching in a highly sensitive area and asserted that nothing but the Vicar's "personal finger" would suffice as relief.

3) EMPATHY/VISUAL AID: Obviously, vicars have to interact with community youths, and what better way to appreciate their questions and concerns about sex than to "try it out once or twice"?

4) GAMBLING: He lost a wager.

Other theories may occur in time.

Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :

Perhaps one of those merry japes from "The Miller's Tale"? Various body parts stuck out windows and so forth?

Sieg

Posted by Joyeux (# 3851) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kenwritez:
<snip>
(We must assume this vicar knew nothing of sexual intercourse.)
<snip>

And he already has children from his own marriage? Come to think of it, they could also reflect on his ignorance in this area...

Posted by Astro (# 84) on :

Well after several years of married life Marie Stopes discovered that she was still a virgin and so decided to set up those sex clinics, so perhaps the vicar had no prior knowledge of what he was doing. (While his wife knew what he had not been doing [Smile]

)

Posted by Arrietty (# 45) on :

You could dupe a vicar into having sex as follows:

1) Show him some egg shells filled with damp cotton wool

2) Give him a packet of mustard and cress seed and asked him if he would mind putting some seed into your eggs.

3) Once he has agreed, insist on having sex on the basis he has promised.

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

.. if you use baby oil you get babies, so if you use vegetable oil do you get vegetables? (Or just Tory MPs).

FWIW I think he meant "duped" about the possibility of a baby. The only reason most vicars do not blow apart at the seems is that we can not bear the thought of being caught.

Has he at any point said sorry ?

P

Posted by TonyK (# 35) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
... Has he at any point said sorry ?

AFAIK, no.

And he denied paternity until the CSA (Child Support Agency, I think) forced a DNA test which showed he was 99.99% likely to be the father. He is now paying (enforced) Child Support.

Posted by Cosmo (# 117) on :

Andrew Brown in Zezebel's Trumpet (the Church Times for those who don't know the term) makes the sensible point that Fr Gray has either been massively deceived and placed into an impossible position by one of his parishioners (ie that she drugged him and, under the influence of that drug, cajoled or 'duped' him into having sex with her presumably without taking any precautions against contracting an STD or a child that he now has to pay for) or that he is an astonishingly persistant liar of great magnitude. There seems to be no middle ground.

That being said one can understand why he might be tempted to lie even if the affair had been consensual. His job provides him and his family of a wife and five children with a home and income and pension. If he steps down from that job he has no home, no income, no prospect of getting work anywhere else (he has, as far as I can see, no professional qualification to try to move into a different field of work) and is a figure of fun for the rest of his life. If he is lying, then one can see why the stakes might be high enough that he might do so.

Cosmo

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

Our Diocesan communications/ press officer was recently overheard to describe this ( and other such situations ) as “……. naughty Clergy will always come.” I am pretty sure he meant to add “along” to the end of the sentence, much to our amusement he did not.

P

Posted by caz667 (# 3026) on :

[Killing me]

maybe not..... it's probably a fairly safe bet left as it is!

Posted by Nightlamp (# 266) on :

We have to feel little bit sorry for Mr Gray since he is going to be impotent as a vicar for years to come. If he starts any change that is opposed by a parishioner, all they have to is write to the Bishop and the process for depriving of his job could be started. There will be a number of subjects he won't be able to preach on with out people laughing at him and indeed as Cosmo he will be a figure of fun for years.

It is of course possible he really was duped.

Posted by caz667 (# 3026) on :

But how?? I know it's what we've all been saying but HOW does a man get duped into having sex? It does seem from the article that's the bit he feels he was duped into.... and I'd love to give him the benefit of the doubt but I just haven't heard any feasible explanation...

[Ultra confused]

Posted by Arrietty (# 45) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
We have to feel little bit sorry for Mr Gray since he is going to be impotent as a vicar for years to come.

Well hopefully that will save him from any more duping.

Posted by Adrian1 (# 3994) on :

Pyx e. Good one that! I'm not sure that many of ny clergy friends would appreciate it though.

Cosmo. I see what you're getting at. Fr Gray probably doesn't have qualifications which would enable him to earn a living in any other sphere. This is perhaps the best argument yet for not allowing anyone to be ordained until they have spent at least 10 years earning their bread in secular employment and know enough about the world of work in order to make a return to it later on in life if necessary. At the same time however, it is clearly inappropriate in my view for Fr Gray to continue in parish ministry and, were I his Bishop I would see to it that he was removed from office if he didn't choose to resign. Behaviour unbecoming of a clerk in holy orders is a serious matter and, in this case, a cause of grave scandal. Apart from anything else, Fr Gray's actions have lost him the moral authority to teach, preach and lead the people of God.

Surely to goodness he could be offered early retirement with the offer a full pension? Not many clergy would refuse that unless they were particularly obstinate.

Much sympathy has been spent on Fr Gray over this issue. What about Mrs Gray though? Doesn't she deserve some sympathy? She must be feeling pretty betrayed I would have thought.

[Wink]

Posted by Gracious rebel (# 3523) on :

quote:
There will be a number of subjects he won't be able to preach on with out people laughing at him and indeed as Cosmo he will be a figure of fun for years.

I hope there is a word missing in the above quote! (eg 'says' after 'Cosmo') otherwise I'm sure Cosmo will complain when he sees this. [Big Grin]

Posted by Beenster (# 242) on :

Just a little thought - how many times was he duped into having sex. Or was it really just that once? [Big Grin]

Posted by G.R.I.T.S. (# 4169) on :

quote:
Just a little thought - how many times was he duped into having sex. Or was it really just that once?

Yeah, you know what they say: "Dupe me once, shame on you. Dupe me twice, shame on me." What do you want to bet he falls into the latter category?

I'm sure there was some dupe-licity involved on someone's part, don't you?

Posted by caz667 (# 3026) on :

I was reading today that the affair actually went on for 8 years.

Goodness that's a long dupe...

Posted by madferret (# 3353) on :

Yes, today's Sunday Mirror (my Dad buys it, honestly... [Two face]

) repeated the claim that he was drugged. The item also said that he had been called before his Bishop and would probably be asked to take paid leave from his post.

Posted by Louise (# 30) on :

8 years! You'd think he would have noticed. What was she drugging him with? Knock out drops in the Tanqueray?

"I think I'll just have shome more of thish very fine exshtra strength gin...! "

L.

Posted by Mrs Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by madferret:
Yes, today's Sunday Mirror (my Dad buys it, honestly... ) repeated the claim that he was drugged. The item also said that he had been called before his Bishop and would probably be asked to take paid leave from his post.

The story was also in the Mail On Sunday ( [Embarrassed]

). The article, iirc, said that the fact that he'd had a child with the ex-church organist was common knowledge in the community and most people were happy to turn a blind eye until he'd either written or contributed to a piece railing against clergy immorality. After that someone felt compelled to grass him up for being such a hypocrite.

Tubbs

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by caz667:
Goodness that's a long dupe...

... as the actress said to the Bishop.

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :

In the interest of academic research, I tried diligently all week-end to be duped into having sex. It is far more difficult than one would think. Despite my best efforts, I failed to be duped. After my experiments, my considered opinion is the vicar is lying.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

Sine,

my experimental results concur with yours.

But, as with all good projects, more research is still needed.

Posted by Duo Seraphim (# 3251) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
We have to feel little bit sorry for Mr Gray since he is going to be impotent as a vicar for years to come.....
It is of course possible he really was duped.

The whole problem is that he wasn't impotent when it counted.

In the interests of science, Sine Nomine and ken, I would like to hear your duping strategies. I respect your abilities and wouldn't want to try something that hasn't worked for you.

Posted by Kenwritez (# 3238) on :

What this issue really needs is not only the intrepid investigators Sine and ken, bravely putting their little all on the line in the name of scientific inquiry, but we need volunteers to actually attempt the duping of these brave lads.

[cue Barber's "Adagio for Strings"]

Who, who amongst our flock here will step forward and, in the name of sweet Reason, help our stalwart, handsome, virile, yet lonely young pioneers Sine and ken get to the bottom of this issue, tearing aside every encumbrance, until the tall, hard Truth is revealed in the glorious Light of Reason, until the sweet Valley of Ignorance lies open before the exploring hand of Science, aching for the first of many thrusts of knowledge, striving to pierce to the bottom of this delectable well, to plumb the very depths of this pearlescent mound of tender, Deepest Mystery?

[/cue Barber's "Adagio for Strings"]

Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :

Kenwritez, I officially take back every not-that-mean thing I've ever said about you. You are a sick, sick little monkey.

Posted by JimT (# 142) on :

quote:
Officers were obliged to investigate claims that Mr Gray might have been drugged and had sex without knowing it.

Here is the essence of the "duped" argument. Because of the drugs, I didn't even know that I was having sex.

I can see this with women. I can't see this with men. I haven't done that many drugs, but I've done quite a few. I can't think of any that would be effective enough to erase my memory but not enough to make me "ineffective." What was this drug? A Flaming Bicardi Viagra Speedball?

Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :

And not just ONE flaming Bacardi -- whatever it was you said. One a week for 8 years.

"I keep coming back from Widow Johnson's house with my pants gooey but I can never quite remember what happens. Suppose I'd better go back next week."

Kenwritez, I enjoyed reading your soft porn parody.

Reader Alexis

Posted by Arrietty (# 45) on :

Mousethief, you know what happens when you mention soft porn in the context of vicars having sex.

[WRIST SLAPPING SMILIE]

That's why I haven't said anything about kenwritez' strange affinity for bottoms, tempting as it is.

Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :

Owwww! [Waterworks]

Reader Alexis

Posted by JimT (# 142) on :

It looks like he liked it. Do it again!

Posted by Arrietty (# 45) on :

I'll make him wait a bit first [Devil]

Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by JimT:
It looks like he liked it. Do it again!

sick sick sick.

Reader Alexis

Posted by Kenwritez (# 3238) on :

Waitaminnit! Will Mousethief claim he was duped into having his wrist slapped?! Ah ha!

Posted by Duo Seraphim (# 3251) on :

quote:
Originally posted by JimT:

quote:
Officers were obliged to investigate claims that Mr Gray might have been drugged and had sex without knowing it.
Here is the essence of the "duped" argument. Because of the drugs, I didn't even know that I was having sex.

I can see this with women. I can't see this with men. I haven't done that many drugs, but I've done quite a few. I can't think of any that would be effective enough to erase my memory but not enough to make me "ineffective." What was this drug? A Flaming Bicardi Viagra Speedball?

This suggests a modification to kenwritez' experiment. We need:

a control,

a person drugged with whatever this miracle drug is,

a person to be duped into sex and

a person to be duped into sex having been drugged with the miracle drug

.
I believe we have our volunteers for the last two - toss of the coin for who gets to take the drug, boys - but the first two are waiting to be filled or otherwise.

Of course we need to know what might sucessfully dupe them and what wiles they can see through. It's the difference between:

"Avaunt, scheming lothario/seductress - you can't dupe me into your bed of shame." and

"What the??? Why am I lying in the wet patch?"

Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
It's the difference between:

"Avaunt, scheming lothario/seductress - you can't dupe me into your bed of shame." and

"What the??? Why am I lying in the wet patch?"

So you're saying that the miracle drug is beer then?

Reader Alexis

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
In the interests of science, Sine Nomine and ken, I would like to hear your duping strategies. I respect your abilities and wouldn't want to try something that hasn't worked for you.

What doesn't work:
Are you up for a little duplicity?
Roll me over and dupe me again.
Is that a dupe in your pocket or are you just glad to see me?
I've never been duped before, but I'm willing to learn.
and the ever popular...
Hi, sailor!

Posted by Arrietty (# 45) on :

Could I volunteer to drug mousethief and dupe him into having his wrist slapped?

Posted by chukovsky (# 116) on :

I know! I know! Please miss! (sticks up hand and waves it in air).

It wasn't the woman parishioner who duped him into having sex. It was his, er, heat-seeking missile. He hadn't had its function explained properly by his daddy so he didn't know it had a mind of its own. Er, at least I've heard that [Embarrassed]

but my NCG mind doesn't understand it.

Posted by DaveC (# 155) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kenwritez:
What this issue really needs is not only the intrepid investigators Sine and ken, bravely putting their little all on the line in the name of scientific inquiry, but we need volunteers to actually attempt the duping of these brave lads.

Actually, ken is not a vicar, so is a suitable candidate to do the duping. Obviously, he has so far failed to dupe his own vicar - who is, I believe, a woman - so perhaps we should see if ken can successfully dupe Sine into having sex.

Posted by Duo Seraphim (# 3251) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
In the interests of science, Sine Nomine and ken, I would like to hear your duping strategies. I respect your abilities and wouldn't want to try something that hasn't worked for you.
What doesn't work:
Are you up for a little duplicity?
Roll me over and dupe me again.
Is that a dupe in your pocket or are you just glad to see me?
I've never been duped before, but I'm willing to learn.
and the ever popular...
Hi, sailor!

I am most grateful for your input, Sine and for the opportunity to refine my technique next time I dupe someone into having sex with me.

Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arrietty:
Could I volunteer to drug mousethief and dupe him into having his wrist slapped?

Back, vile hoopster!

Reader alexis

Posted by kingsfold (# 1726) on :

quote:
posted by DaveC:
Actually, ken is not a vicar, so is a suitable candidate to do the duping. Obviously, he has so far failed to dupe his own vicar - who is, I believe, a woman - so perhaps we should see if ken can successfully dupe Sine into having sex.

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
I am most grateful for your input, Sine and for the opportunity to refine my technique next time I dupe someone into having sex with me.

I did notice that "Is there dirt on the back of my jeans?" showed a certain promise.

Posted by Gracious rebel (# 3523) on :

Back to the original story, there is an update in today's local paper (living in Suffolk I've seen quite a lot about this man in the local press).

He issued a statement denying he ever had an extra-marital affair, and has turned down a request by two bishops to go on paid leave.

Apparently now he is now planning a private prosecution against the woman.

Very strange.

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
He issued a statement denying he ever had an extra-marital affair

And the baby? The baby was just left on the doorstep in a basket?

Posted by Joyeux (# 3851) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:

quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
He issued a statement denying he ever had an extra-marital affair
And the baby? The baby was just left on the doorstep in a basket?

No.... she has a top-secret lab, whereby, using only a hair that fell from the vicar's head, she extracted enough DNA to impregnate herself...

Or, more likely, the child is from outer space, and it's just a weird coincidence that there's, what, a 99% liklihood that the vicar is the father.

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

He's really a Raelian? [Eek!]

Posted by Joyeux (# 3851) on :

[display of ignorance]

quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
He's really a Raelian?

psst... what's a Raelian?

[/display of ignorance]

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :

They are what one of my colleagues charitably refers to as 'a new religious movement', and they are into extraterrestrials and clones bigtime. I understand they are the brainchildren of a French-Canadian journalist. Try googling.

Posted by Duo Seraphim (# 3251) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
Back to the original story, there is an update in today's local paper (living in Suffolk I've seen quite a lot about this man in the local press).

He issued a statement denying he ever had an extra-marital affair, and has turned down a request by two bishops to go on paid leave.

Apparently now he is now planning a private prosecution against the woman.

Very strange.

O man, this gets better and better! [Killing me]

What a gift to the cross-examiner this man is! I must say that this is a quality imbroglio.

What's his private prosecution going to be, I wonder? I can think of a couple of unlikely candidates.

"M'Lud, this woman defamed my client by bearing a child that is 99% certain to be his."

"M'Lud, this is an action for deceit. My client was duped into having sex with the woman concerned over a period of 8 years."

"m'Lud, my client is not guilty of misconduct in clerical orders by reason of an extra-maritial affair. She is his wife in a parallel universe."

Gracious rebel, is there a link to the latest on this?

Posted by Gracious rebel (# 3523) on :

For Duo Seraphim (and anyone else who wants to read the story) I finally managed to locate it on our newspaper's website here I had read it in the paper version yestreday, but I think its the same
(first time I've tried to Use 'Make a shorter link' - hope it works!)

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :

quote:
From the Evening Star article:
It was revealed earlier this month that Father Gray was 99.999 per cent certain to be the father of the five-year-old son of his former organist Belinda Denton-Cardew.

...well, as long as there's an element of doubt about the paternity... [Big Grin]

Posted by Merseymike (# 3022) on :

We all make mistakes, and who knows whether it was a one night stand or an affair. It's the fact that he stood up in the pulpit and railed against others in the full knowledge of his own frailties.

Trying to deny the whole thing when the child is his seems bizarre to say the least. Not to mention a mite caddish.

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

Is it me? or does the person in the photo in GR's link look suspiciously like a certain Mighty Pirate? Maybe Stoo is the REAL father. And [Killing me]

as to Bishop Kieth having to deal with this. What are the statistical chances for a priest who is against the ordination of women being duped in to sex (witha women), having a son and then DENYING it [Killing me]

.

P

Posted by Clyde (# 752) on :

I was surprised to see that a women organist was involved. Surely she could have 'pulled out all the stops' to avoid conceiving.

(It's the way I tell em ) [Big Grin]

Posted by Royal Peculiar (# 3159) on :

Presumably he is prosecuting for indecent assault or assault or administering a noxious thing with intent to aggrieve or annoy ( s.24 of the offences against the Person Act) on the grounds that she took advantage of him having given him that mysterious drug which deprived him of memory or power to resist while still allowing him to procreate(Mickey finn Viagra).

Book your seats in the public gallerry at Ipswich Crown Court now. I'm sure the local economy will enjoy the boost when the media arrive en masse with their expense accounts. Perhaps we could arrange a shipmeet for the day he gives evidence.

Posted by Merseymike (# 3022) on :

In terms of both gender and sexual orientation, the identity of the organist suggests a rare species indeed.....

Posted by chukovsky (# 116) on :

MM, I think you'd better duck and weave before jedijudy sees you saying that.

Posted by Louise (# 30) on :

All I can say is it's no wonder the poor dear is against women priests. Imagine letting all those sex-mad, potential rapists in skirts share your altar.

Think of the opportunities for a dedicated hussy: she could slip the knock-out drops in the chalice after the congo have partaken, wait for the unsuspecting victim to drain it - then pounce in the vestry!

Am I the only one amused by the fact that any case would have to be heard by 'High Court Judge Mr Justice Blofeld' - presumably whilst stroking a large white Persian pussycat?

Perhaps poor Revd Gray has been the victim of an evil international conspiracy?

Stay tuned for the new James Bond film 'On the Church of England's Secret Services' in which Our Man has to fight off the Vicar of Dibley armed with her case of Mickey Finn Viagra and a bottle of Tanqueray. Not for viewers of a nervous disposition.

L.

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :

Will probably be one of the more interesting cases in Ipswich since Mrs. Simpson got her divorce. [Wink]

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :

Double post/tangental trivia:

Speaking of Mrs. Simpson, one of the world's best ever headlines was:

"King's Moll Reno'd in Wolsey's home town"

Posted by Gracious rebel (# 3523) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Will probably be one of the more interesting cases in Ipswich since Mrs. Simpson got her divorce.

Bit of an aside, but I'm impressed to hear that you know so much about my beloved home town even though you are far away in California!

Posted by Gracious rebel (# 3523) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:

quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Will probably be one of the more interesting cases in Ipswich since Mrs. Simpson got her divorce.
Bit of an aside, but I'm impressed to hear that you know so much about my beloved home town even though you are far away in California!

Sorry I don't know where I got the 'California' idea from - just rechecked your location - ooops! [Embarrassed]

Posted by Cosmo (# 117) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Double post/tangental trivia:

Speaking of Mrs. Simpson, one of the world's best ever headlines was:

"King's Moll Reno'd in Wolsey's home town"

Someone's spent too much time reading Chips Channons' diaries methinks.

Cosmo

Posted by Duo Seraphim (# 3251) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Royal Peculiar:
Presumably he is prosecuting for indecent assault or assault or administering a noxious thing with intent to aggrieve or annoy ( s.24 of the offences against the Person Act) on the grounds that she took advantage of him having given him that mysterious drug which deprived him of memory or power to resist while still allowing him to procreate(Mickey finn Viagra).

Book your seats in the public gallerry at Ipswich Crown Court now. I'm sure the local economy will enjoy the boost when the media arrive en masse with their expense accounts. Perhaps we could arrange a shipmeet for the day he gives evidence.

I'd be inclined to agree with you on the likely basis for private prosecution - s15 of the Sexual Offences Act 1956 (indecent assault on a male)and s24 of the Offences against the Person Act 1861*, as you say. I am still desperate to learn more about this mystery drug. Dear me, it brings back happy memories as a law student, studying criminal law and the defences of insane and non-insane automatism to a charge of murder.

An indecent assault prosecution would be more likely to be brought by the DPP, would it not?

*Because my typing is somewhat erratic at times, I originally typed "s24 of the Offences against the Parson Act 1861". [Big Grin]

Posted by Little Glimmer (# 4540) on :

I have asked our Diocesan Office to give me full details on Dupe Defence training but I've heard nothing.
I've asked our branch of the Mothers Union to dupe-test me but to no avail.
I've searched the Internet but found nothing.
I've tried to look dupe-able at Morning Eucharist and Evening Prayer but alas, go home alone.
I'm worried that I too may one day be duped into having sex enough times to father a child and have no means of resisting.

Posted by Royal Peculiar (# 3159) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
An indecent assault prosecution would be more likely to be brought by the DPP, would it not?

The police submitted a file to the CPS (which acts on behalf of the DPP) and it decided not to prosecute. I can't see that these offences require DPP's consent, so there is no bar to a private prosecution . THe CPS can take over a private prosecution and either continue it or discontinue it, though. Perhaps the retired solictior who acts on behalf of Mr. Gray can clarify what the cahrges will be. I think we should be told.

[Poster duped into not using Preview post?]

[ 23. May 2003, 21:07: Message edited by: RooK ]

Posted by maleveque (# 132) on :

Can someone explain the notion of 'private prosecution'? [Confused]

Is this more or less the same as a civil suit in American law? Or can the defendant be jailed after a conviction, as in a prosecution by the state?
Anne L.

Posted by Royal Peculiar (# 3159) on :

No a private prosecution is a criminal prosecution conduted in the criminal courts in exactly the same way as a public prosecution except that it is conducted by a private individual rather than a representative of the state. On conviction exactly the same range of penalties are available for the particular offence as if the prosecution had been conducted by the state.

The most famous example recently(ish) is from the 1970s , when Mary Whitehouse ( a campaingner against what she regarded as unsuitable material in the media) brought a private prosecution against the editors of Gay News for blasphemous libel after they published a poem about a Roman soldier's sexual attraction to the dead Christ. IIRC one of them did go to prison.

The right to bring a private prosecution has been debated, but it remains as it is considered a valuable safeguard in cases where the state fails to act. The State ( in the person of the DPP) can however take over and end prosecutions which he deems to be frivolous or vexatious

Posted by Mamacita (# 3659) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Little Glimmer:
I'm worried that I too may one day be duped into having sex enough times to father a child and have no means of resisting.

Enough times? Um, last time I checked, it only took once. [Razz]

Posted by Icarus Coot (# 220) on :

I have had word that an exhibit which will be used as evidence by the defence involves a fancy dress costume worn to a Vicars & Tarts charity party.

Posted by Icarus Coot (# 220) on :

Oop. I mean... 'Prosecution'.

Posted by Little Glimmer (# 4540) on :

Stand back, I'm a perfectionist! I want to get it absolutely right! [Smile]

Posted by Janine (# 3337) on :

Ya wanna get the duped sex absolutely right?

You've lost me. Please elaborate.

Posted by Brendo (# 4512) on :

quote:
Originally posted by maleveque:
Can someone explain the notion of 'private prosecution'?
Is this more or less the same as a civil suit in American law? Or can the defendant be jailed after a conviction, as in a prosecution by the state?
Anne L.

No its not the same as American-style civil cases. Assuming you are familiar with the Stella awards, private prosecutions actually have to be worth something and at least partially based on reality.

Posted by Little Glimmer (# 4540) on :

Janine, I was responding to Mamacita's post.
Just a crap joke. [Embarrassed]

Yes, sadly, I suspect I could be duped pretty easily. [Smile]

Posted by Janine (# 3337) on :

I'm sorry I was dense, LG.

And I think I too would be easy to dupe. At least, into things I really desire to do anyway.

Posted by caz667 (# 3026) on :

But how does one broach the subject? That's what I want to know....

Dupe me up, dupe me up real nice.....

I need a damn good duping...

Since the birth of our third child, my wife just doesn't dupe me any more. Truth, truth, truth, that's all I ever hear from her...

[Roll Eyes]

Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :

If you wish to be duped, then send a cheque for £50 to the usual helltithe address, and I'll arrange it for you.

Viki, hellhost

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

........... do I get a baby at the end of the duping ?

P

Posted by Thumbprint (# 3056) on :

Ohhhhhh, Ahhhhhhhh, OH BAAAAAAAABY!

(feel better Pyx_e? [Devil]

)

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

tumbprint: I can't say in case the CSA are reading this.

I once had a final demand from the CSA, in respect to the children by my first marriage. So the game is guess how much they demanded and guess how much they agreed (in the end) I really owed them. I can laugh about this 3 years later but at the time I was shitting myself, they are BIG BROTHER. Go on guess.

P

Posted by Duo Seraphim (# 3251) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
tumbprint: I can't say in case the CSA are reading this.

I once had a final demand from the CSA, in respect to the children by my first marriage. So the game is guess how much they demanded and guess how much they agreed (in the end) I really owed them. I can laugh about this 3 years later but at the time I was shitting myself, they are BIG BROTHER. Go on guess.

P

My guess is:
They claimed: An amount in pounds sterling equalling the weight of your first born child in grammes. Let's say circa 4000 pounds (assuming a 40kg child).

They agreed you owed: An amount in pence equalling the weight of your first born child in metric tonnes ie about 4p. Either that or you owed them nothing or were in credit.

Here what you describe is part of the jurisdiction of the Family Court of Australia under child support orders or registered child support agreements. The payments can be collected and payment enforced by the Child Support Agency. Family law is a subject I spurn as I do a rabid dog.

Posted by chukovsky (# 116) on :

Why is Pyx_e owning up to having been so behind on his child support that the CSA pursued him? Even in Hell it's not exactly something to be proud of.

Posted by Louise (# 30) on :

quote:
Originally posted by chukovsky:
Why is Pyx_e owning up to having been so behind on his child support that the CSA pursued him? Even in Hell it's not exactly something to be proud of.

Never heard of the CSA making mistakes and wrongly harassing people? Because I have. What a nasty conclusion to jump to.

L.

Posted by Ham'n'Eggs (# 629) on :

Being pusued by the CSA would appear to have less to do with being behind with maintenance payments than about the CSA enforcing control over what it sees as its monopoly.

I know of more than one couple who had their own maintenance arrangments in operation, quite amicably, and some time later had the CSA blunder in very heavy handedly, threatening them with all sorts of penalties unless they accepted the CSA's imposition of a lower(!) maintenance payment.

The CSA deserves a permanant thread in Hell. It has hounded a number of people to their deaths.

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :

chukovsky, to explain. after paying for my children through the CSA for many years I went to become a student and hence unwaged. I wrote and told them. At the same time my ex-wife came of benefits got a job and a boyfriend, all good stuff. she wrote and told them. They lost both letters. For not paying and "hiding" for 7 years I ws on their "hit list." and got a bill for £44k. I shat myself. Afetr two days of frantic phone calls they found my letter (but not my ex-wifes but the tax office proved her employment record). They agreed I owed nothing and sent my file to Northen Ireland, the place for old emabarrising files??

I now have a private agreement with my ex-wife, who is still working. I see my boys every month and they holiday with us twice a year.

So the answers were £44k and £0

P

Posted by chukovsky (# 116) on :

Most of the stories I've heard about the CSA have been along the lines of this vicar - not the being duped into sex part, but the "I never said I wanted to have children and now she is pursuing me through the CSA and she should jolly well support them since she was the one who wanted to have them", or alternatively "why should I support the children when she has a new partner, why can't he support them, I'm not paying".

I'm not saying I've never heard of bureaucratic mixups, and I'm definitely not accusing Pyx_e of falling into the "can't pay, won't pay" category that I'm talking about above, but it wasn't at all clear that the claim by CSA was wrong because his circumstances had changed - it sounded like he'd gotten behind (the words "final demand" made me think that, you've got to admit they do imply that) as well as them miscalculating.

Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Cosmo:
Someone's spent too much time reading Chips Channons' diaries methinks.

Got me on that one, Cosmo. One of my favorites. Do you think he really put benzadrine in the cocktails at his parties?

Posted by madferret (# 3353) on :

I heard an interesting excuse for having 'risk-free' sex in Last Orders on BBC2 last week...

Two men talking in pub. Women enters with baby:
"That could be yours you know"
"Nah, I took precautions. I told her I had had the snip*"

*vasectomy

Posted by madferret (# 3353) on :

D'oh - it's Early Doors not Last Orders! [Embarrassed]

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