Thread: MW: Addressing a female Anglican priest Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by CorgiGreta (# 443) on :
 
I always feel a bit tongue-tied when I greet a female Anglican Priest. I would never, of course, say, "Hello, Rev. Jones", but what is the alternative? "Hello, Father Jane" sounds silly, possibly even offensive. "Hello, Jane" sounds far too casual, almost flippant. I don't want to get into the whole Miss, Mrs., Ms. thing either. "Mother Jones" (no pun intended) also has some drawbacks.

There must ba a Rev./Mother/Father/Dr./Ms./Mrs./Miss Manners of the cloth who can help me out.

I have been tempted to use the word 'Mater'. The Latin origin seems nice although 'Mater Jane' is a bit awkward. If its use became common, it might seem qite natural however.

Please, let's keep the discussion (if any) polite.

Greta

[ 29. March 2004, 19:42: Message edited by: Siegfried ]
 

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Posted by Ultraspike (# 268) on :
 
In New York the usual reference is Mother or Mo, although it is not really correct. Reverend Jones sounds too formal and Barbara sounds too casual, so what's a parishioner to do?
 

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Posted by Rowen (# 1194) on :
 
One of my fellow -chaplains is a female Anglican priest, and she only responds to her Christian name, as in "Hello Jane".... maybe it reflects our more casual Australian lifestyle?
 

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Posted by Erin (# 2) on :
 
We just call ours Mother Patricia. It seems to fit.
 

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Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
CorgiGreta has a good point, as there really doesn't seem to be any satisfactory nomenclature in place. Our southern neighbours in ECUSA are beginning to use Mother (a point verified in US-origin clerical detective stories, as mystery-writers tend to be good interpreters of social trends) but I've never heard that here. In the Ottawa Valley, the nigh-universal address to a cleric is the incorrect "Reverend Jones."

One is really only on safe ground in addressing women canons and archdeacons, so perhaps a rapid enlargement or multiplication of cathedral chapters and collegiate churches so as to include all women priests might solve the problem.
 

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Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :
 
Is a male priest addressed as Father, in the Anglican church? What about "Vicar", as in "Vicar Jones"?

Sieg
 

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Posted by Erin (# 2) on :
 
Yes, male priests are called Father. I've never met a vicar, only rectors.
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
Our vicar has a wicked sense of humour - when our female trainee priest was ordained, he introduced her to us during the party afterwards to welcome her, as 'Father Julie' - we all laughed but she tends to get called Reverend Julie or just Julie. A fellow priest remarked, 'I like her, she's a good bloke'.

Perhaps friendly humour is more important than getting uptight about these things.......
 

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Posted by Regina Caeli (# 2343) on :
 
Indeed Chorister. I call the priest at my former Parish 'Motherette Anne', just for the lighthearted comic value. Seriously, I call her just 'Anne'.

Though I do quite like your suggestion of 'Mater', CorgiGreta. (Thanks for the PM BTW , I couldn't reply though )

Ah well. xxx
 

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Posted by Regina Caeli (# 2343) on :
 
Afterthought,

What d'you call a female bishop?

m'Lady?

Perhaps some of you folk across the pond could give some advice here.

Thx
 

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Posted by Nunc Dimittis (# 848) on :
 
I know the proper title of a Mother Superior in religious orders is "Rev. Mother." Would it be inappropriate to adopt it into usage for female priests?
 

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Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
I have yet to find uniformity in addressing male priests (in general - it usually is standard within a particular parish.) I've had certain times when I have addressed a clearly Low Church vicar as "sir" just not to employ the incorrect term. Yet I must confess to a brief giggle when I saw an Internet site where a female priest was referred to as "Father Catherine." I personally prefer "Mother," which (as with "Father") has a warm, familial aspect.

I came from a Franciscan tradition, where a priest would be addressed as "Father Ignatius," not "Father Smith." I like referring to bishops as "Bishop David" - because, in my rather mystical head, our name, either in religion or in baptism, means more than that of our family. Yet I would hesitate to use such forms unless I knew they were previously accepted, because to do so could appear to be inappropriate familiarity (and disrespect). (Minor digression: even newspaper editors seem unaware that, in almost every congregation, nuns are never referred to as "Sister Walsh.")

Perhaps I am a dinosaur, but I would not be one to address either a priest or anyone who is a generation older than I am as "Nancy" or "John" unless I was invited to do so. (Then again, I often have a backache from being forced into semi-Anglican crouch when a priest who sees me rising when s/he enters the room says "don't get up." ) Are there places where it is the usual custom to address the clergy in this fashion?
 

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Posted by Chapelhead (# 1143) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Siegfried:
Is a male priest addressed as Father, in the Anglican church? What about "Vicar", as in "Vicar Jones"?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Erin:
I've never met a vicar, only rectors.

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Originally posted by Chapelhead:
In the CofE 'Father' tends to be used by the High-Church and Anglo-Catholic parts of the Church. Those of a lower-Church tradition tend to use just 'Reverend' (or drop titles altogether and simply use names).

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quote:

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'Vicar' and 'rector' are posts to be held, rather than titles.

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Thank you.

I wish people would realise this. I can't stand it when I refer to some preiest or another as such, and someone points out to me that I must mean the vicar, because priests are Roman Catholic, not Anglican.

A priest is a priest, whether (s)he be a vicar, rector, priest-in charge, chaplain, canon, dean, or whatever else they do. For these are job titles, for which one must first be a priest.

quote:

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...with all new parishes having a vicar (except, I think, where it is a team ministry).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Chapelhead:
How do the parts of Anglicanism other than the CofE determine who is a vicar and who is a rector? In the CofE it is a matter of history (and who, in the 'old days' got the income from the parish), with all new parishes having a vicar (except, I think, where it is a team ministry).

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In the ECUSA every church has a rector. However, the rector of a mission church is the bishop, himself, so that a bishop may be rector of several churches.

The hands-on pastor of a mission church is a vicar, i.e. he serves vicariously for the bishop.

One important difference between a rector and a vicar is the amount of authority they have vis-a-vis the vestry. The vicar has more authority than the rector.

Moo
 

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Posted by Regina Caeli (# 2343) on :
 
It took me a few months after moving back here, so to clarify for those who don't know, the 'vestry' on the Western side of the pond isn't a room of any sort (though it might be), but is the equivalent to the PCC.

I don't know why this is so though, unless it's from the tradition that they often meet in a vestry. I know lots of PCC's over here do that.

But again, what to call a female bish.

RC x
 

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Posted by Jesuitical Lad (# 2575) on :
 
"Your excellency"?
 

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Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
You're right, Regina - priests in charge do seem to be becoming the norm. (I still call them vicars... ) I have noticed that even the Archbishops of Canterbury and York are generally referred to as "Archbishop Rowan or David" by most - so I'll ask - on this thread, are we referring to formal address, or that used in conversation?

I'm enjoying this thread (warming up for Your Grace and My Lord... if I'm ever a bishop, perish the thought, you may address me as My Lady the first time) ... so I'll ask: isn't "The Reverend" (where I worked, perish the thought one forgot the "The"!) a written, rather than spoken, form of address? I've known Low Churchmen here and there who made absolutely certain that, if one referred to an Anglican priest as Father, he, in the response which immediately followed, called said priest "Mr."

"It is my honour to be, Your Excellency,
Yours most respectfully,"
Newman's Own, p.p.1
 

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Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
With respect to women bishops in Canada, Victoria Matthews of Edmonton is normally called Bishop Matthews or Bishop Victoria. I am reliably informed that the few clergy in the diocese who have difficulty with the concept of or who do not accept women priests apparently quite like her and call her Bishop Victoria or Bishop Matthews, presumably accepting her enthronement and authority, if not her orders. Anne Tottenham of Credit Valley (suffragan of Toronto) gets the same treatment although, as the daughter of the Marquis of Exeter, she could legitimately be called Your Ladyship (as with most Persons of Title in Canada, she doesn't use the dignity).

The Canadian Government Style Manual still hasn't adjusted to the woman bishop phenomenon and is, as of yet, little help to us.

While archbishops still get Your Grace thrown at them, My Lord or Your Lordship tends only to be used by Anglicans of a certain generation, or those who wish to really annoy the bishop in question.

Thank you for allowing me to provide some further ecclesiastical trivia to the board. Must dash -- the Pope is on TV for the World Youth Day mass...
 

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Posted by Regina Caeli (# 2343) on :
 

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Originally posted by Newman's Own:
You're right, Regina - priests in charge do seem to be becoming the norm.

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quote:

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...(I still call them vicars... )

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Stoppit!

quote:

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I have noticed that even the Archbishops of Canterbury and York are generally referred to as "Archbishop Rowan or David" by most - so I'll ask - on this thread, are we referring to formal address, or that used in conversation?

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quote:

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...isn't "The Reverend" (where I worked, perish the thought one forgot the "The"!) a written, rather than spoken, form of address?

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quote:

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I've known Low Churchmen here and there who made absolutely certain that, if one referred to an Anglican priest as Father, he, in the response which immediately followed, called said priest "Mr."

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quote:

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Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
While archbishops still get Your Grace thrown at them, My Lord or Your Lordship tends only to be used by Anglicans of a certain generation, or those who wish to really annoy the bishop in question.

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Oi!

Which generation would that be?!

...and the second reason, only with +Christopher of Manchester, but then he needs a good winding up every now and then.

x
 

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Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
Heavens, Regina Coeli, you are making me feel old! (Teasing tag on) I never thought I'd see the day when Father Bill was formal address. In fact, I'm old enough to remember (though not to have used) the term "Your Reverence" for Roman priests. (I'm a transplant.) It led to all sorts of highly amusing combinations, such as hearing a lady refer to "I'm going to see his Reverence your Uncle Liam." Normally, of course, families who used such terms had the informal "my son Tommy-the-priest." (Hand on heart, I'll reveal that I knew of a priest who had, below his name on his gravestone, "Tommy the Priest.") And, naturally, those who address you as Mr are not protesting against popery...

(Yes, I am risking having one of the hosts scold me for being off topic, but for some reason I am enjoying this thread enough to risk it.)

You missed the fun, being so young, Regina. Parishioners, unused to Franciscan parishes, thought the very traditional "Father Francis" was disrespectful. (I'll not even get into the "Don" business in Italy - where His Holiness is referred to as "Papa," bishops as "Bonelli.") Of course, some intricate arrangements exist to this day. For example, if there were curates as well as a vicar in a parish, the usual form of referring to the absent vicar (who, rather like the Holy Ghost, is an omnipresent but generally unseen force) as "Our Vicar," not by name. Here and there one can still find an archbishop or two who likes to be invariably referred to as "His Grace." Written address, for those who dealt with very formal correspondence, could be very intricate as well.
Of course, I am just about old enough to remember when, amongst just about everyone, to address someone as "Michael" or "Elizabeth" meant either that the parties were family or close friends.

So, do we leave it up to the lady vicars to tell us how they prefer to be addressed, or is there any standard underway? (Never heard of "Mo" - reminds me of what my perpetually hungry nephew used to say, when he was just beginning to talk, when he wanted another banana.)
 

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Posted by Chapelhead (# 1143) on :
 
Do diocesen bishops who do not sit in the House of Lords get styled 'My Lord Bishop'? I suppose they do.

If the CofE had women bishops, and they sat in the House of Lords, I presume the correct form of address would be 'My Lady Bishop' - the House of Lords having Lords and Ladies.
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
in country areas, at least round my way, Vicar is used as a name, and is suitable for male or female.

As in: ev'nin' Vicar
 

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Posted by Stephen (# 40) on :
 
Not just in country areas either Chorister.Mine answers to both Vicar and Father....
 

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Posted by Rowen (# 1194) on :
 
As female protestant clergy.... if I wear a cross anywhere, I regularly get called "Sister" and asked about the pope!
 

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Posted by multipara (# 2918) on :
 
Whatever is the matter with the use of the baptismal name(or the name in religion)?-without Father, sister, brother etc.

I find that for a priest/minister whom I don't know well that Rev Whoever is fine-works for rabbis and imams,too.

Our parish is franciscan and most of us call the local clergy by their baptismal names, the sisters ditto except for one Sister Mark who was baptized Norma 70 years ago and gets Mark.

I once met a very earnest and very young Tridentine priest who introduced himself as Father Terence Mary, and I explained gently that my late earthly father was the only father to me and G'day Terence Mary. Once he had recovered from such modernist impertinence we got on fine.

Or how about "Ma'am" for the lady bishops?

Nunc, I've been around a lot of nuns and the only Reverend Mother I've met in the last 30 years is the Reverend Mother Inferior of the traditionally attired Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence-and she bore a striking resemblance to my 2nd grade teacher of 44 years ago.

These days, the vast majority of femal religious who are congregational leaders (i.e. of their respective Orders) are just plain Sister Kafoops or just plain Kafoops.
 

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Posted by Corpus cani (# 1663) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Newman's Own:
...so I'll ask: isn't "The Reverend"... a written, rather than spoken, form of address?

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Not necessarily. What about the formal (spoken) greetings "Reverend Sir" and "Reverend Father in God". The important thing to remember is that 'Reverend' is just an adjective preceding the usual courtesy title.

'Father' works fine for me, although it's very odd to hear one of my youthful years addressed as Father by an old dear of eighty plus. I'm always reminded of Kenneth William's line in 'Round the Horne' - "Ooh, you don' 'alf 'ave to use your imagination..."
 

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Posted by CorgiGreta (# 443) on :
 
multiprea asks: "Whatever is the matter with the use of the baptismal name(or the name in religion)?-without Father, sister, brother etc."

I hope the Hosts refrain from labeling this a tangent, because I think it is an interesting point, and I would like to see it discussed. I think it is within the scope of my original question.

Here are my initial feelings. I think priests deserve a special form of address in recogniton of their calling and of the sacramental nature of the priesthood. This is not to say that they are holier, better, or closer to God than the people in the pews, but priests have been called, trained, and ordained to a unique and crucial role in the Church. A special title and/or form of address acknowledges and shows respect for this role.

Greta
 

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Posted by CorgiGreta (# 443) on :
 
multipara,

My Latin teacher and my typing teacher are turning over in their graves.

Greta
 

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Posted by Edward Green (# 46) on :
 
I am happy with Mother and Father, although there is that problematic:

quote:

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MT 23:9 And do not call anyone on earth `father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Spike:
Just a small point that I hope our ordained shipmates will either back me up on or correct me.

My understanding is that to andress a member of the clergy as "Rev Smith" (or whatever) is incorrect as "Reverend" (or more correct, The Reverend) is a description as opposed to a title. Father/Mother is correct in traditions where those terms are used, otherwise the proper way to address a member of the cloth is Mr/Mrs/Miss/Ms etc. Which is why newsreaders refer to the current ABpC as "Dr Carey" rather than "Most Rev and Rt Hon Carey".

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I'm not ordained (yet?) I'm afraid Spike , but the Church of England Yearbook states the 'correct' titles to be given to the clergy of differing office, and Reverend (not preceeded by 'The') seems to be the norm for most priests and deacons. It goes into too much depth for me to be able to recall all of it, but if I pop into church in the week, I'll borrow the copy from the bookstall, and post here.

RC x
 

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Posted by Chapelhead (# 1143) on :
 
<Tangent>

How reverend is a retired Dean?

A retired Bishop clearly remains a Bishop (without being the Bishop of anywhere in particular), and thus presumably continues to be a Right Revd. Does a retired Dean (who will, I presume, no longer be a Dean) continue to be Very Revd, or does (s)he revert to being merely Revd, as any other Priest?

</Tangent>
 

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Posted by CorgiGreta (# 443) on :
 
I have encountered people (even an Anglican or two) who apply the title 'Dr.' to all non-Catholic, non-Orthodox clergy, regardless of whether or not they have an earned or unearned doctorate.

Also, some clergy are themselves fond of using the title 'Dr.' even though the doctorate is in a field other than theology, divinity, or church studies. (Shades of Dr. Laura, whose degree is not in the area of psychology?). It may be technically correct but seems to border on a slight deception.

Greta
 

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Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
Well, Greta, nothing wrong with using the title doctor (as long as it is earned...), whatever the field. However, since RC bishops (any variety) have the honorary "D.D. degree", I always found that particular addendum to signatures and addresses very annoying. (Though I have never heard one of them addressed as doctor.) There is no D.D. degree in the Roman Catholic Church - the genuine doctors of theology are either J.C.D. (canon law) or S.T.D. (sacred theology). The Most Reverend Anthony Patrick Whosoever is quite a penful in itself without adding fiddle-DD.

Dr. Elizabeth (humanities - working on that D.D. nonetheless!)

Footnote: Hooker's post reminded me of an article I read some years back, when Princess Anne married Mark Philips, which, in the name of American democracy, kept referring to Her Royal Highness as Mrs Phillips.
 

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Posted by Corpus cani (# 1663) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Spike:
.. Which is why newsreaders refer to the current ABpC as "Dr Carey" rather than "Most Rev and Rt Hon Carey".

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Surely no newsreader worth his scriptwriter would ever dream of addressing His Archiepiscopal Munificence as "Most Rev and Rt Hon Carey" because

(a) it would be most improper for the reasons I outlined in my previous post.

(b) it would be a hideous mouthful and they'd keep tripping over their tongues.

(c) it would sound grovelly and just plain silly.

"Dr Carey", "Archbishop", "Archbishop Carey" and "Your Grace" are all grammatically and socially proper, respectful and courteous, easy to say and often heard in interviews.

...or at least as often as one ever gets to hear such a marginalised and insignificant figure as the leading Churchman in England speaking across the airwaves. (Why is there no "smiley" to denote "speaking with tongue in cheek through gritted teeth?!?!)

Corpus (who's devastated that they didn't ask him to take the Throne of St Augustine. )
 

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Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
I fear that the only time I have ever heard "Your Reverence" used was in the context of walking over the O'Connell Street bridge many years ago, when a priest passed by a beggar who acknowledge this by saying, "God bless Your Reverence" in a way which suggested that he meant no such thing. I have, from time to time, used this for of address to our raised-Baptist rector, who regards me with a certain nervousness on that account.

In Ireland, newspapers had long delighted in using Doctor in referring to all bishops of any stripe, as it provided them with a respectful and dignified means of address while avoiding issues of validity of orders or right to particular titles (as both RC and C of I prelates claimed the same ancient sees, with varying degrees of seriousness). I asked of a learnèd C of I cleric about this, as not all bishops had doctorates (usually only one or two, and they generally mad or unbalanced), and he said that all bishops were teachers of theology (doctores divinitatis) by virtue of their apostolic office. Therefore, Trinity College would award some of them DDs jure officio (just to make certain??).

Bishop Tikhon's notes on clerical address were indeed interesting and I am circulating it to my colleagues in hopes that we may start signing our letters "The Unworthy Acting Senior Program Officer X."
 

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Posted by Cosmo (# 117) on :
 
The lavatory attendant of a club I occasionally visit always calls me 'Your Reverence' and it makes me feel like the Vicar in Dad's Army. Needless to say I quite enjoy it.

Spike is quite correct to draw attention to the appallingness of the way so many clergy are addressed in these degenerate times. The only safe guide to this is found at the beginning of Crockford (I'm sorry Regina Caeli, but you ought to cast your Church of England Yearbook into the canal).

It clearly states that one addresses an envelope to 'The Reverend J Smith', that when one starts a letter or in speech one referes to 'Mr Smith' and that in referring to a member of the clergy one writes 'The Reverend J Smith' first and then referes to 'Mr Smith' after that. It notes that the form 'Reverend Smith' or 'The Reverend Smith' are never used this side of the Atlantic and that the word 'Reverend' should always be preceded by the definite article.

There are of course other rules for addressing Archdeacons or Canons or Bishops of Titled Clerics.

I have a slight disagreement with Crockford (note the lack of 's by the way) when it states one can use the abbreviation 'Rev'd' or 'Rev'. I was always taught that to use the abbreviation 'Rev' was as bad a solecism as saying 'Reverend Smith'. I understand that Fowler backs me up on this vital point. I must check in an elderly copy of Crockford and see what it says, if indeed it does, (although it is probably a mark of the times that we now have to be told these things than just know them automatically).

If in doubt just use 'Father'. It works for me.

Cosmo
 

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Posted by Merseymike (# 3022) on :
 
I'm certainly aware that affirming catholic parishes with women clergy have started to adopt the term Mother, just as they would call male priests Father.
I like that, personally
 

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Posted by Dyfrig (# 15) on :
 
I thought the correct mode of address for any woman in church was "luv", as in the phrases:

Make the tea please, luv.

Scrub the floor please, luv.

Do all the back-breakingly servile and menial tasks whilst we swan about at the front please, luv.

There is more - however, upon previewing the post, I think it better to post that in Hell. See you there, my cherubs
 

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Posted by babybear (# 34) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by CorgiGreta:
Also, some clergy are themselves fond of using the title 'Dr.' even though the doctorate is in a field other than theology, divinity, or church studies. It may be technically correct but seems to border on a slight deception.

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There is no maybe about it! Most people have to work damned hard to get a PhD. They are most worthy of using the title "Dr" as and when they choose. The fact that the doctorate is not in Theology does not matter in the slightest. If someone is really interested they will ask.

bb
 

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Posted by Regina Caeli (# 2343) on :
 
I have to hand the 2002 edition of The Church of England Year Book, rescued from' canal. (Sorry Cosmo ) Don't you hate the fact that they compile these things so early in the year that by the time they're published, half the information's of no use anyway cos it's all out of date?!

Anyway. Addressing the clergy:

Apparently, 'My Lord' and 'Mr Dean' are now bordering on obsolescence, and are being replaced by simply 'Bishop' and 'Dean'.

Addressing clergy on an envelope (how often do you see clergy standing/sitting/lying on an envelope? )

• AB of another Province - The Most Revd the Lord Archbishop of...
• Bish of London - The Rt Revd and Rt Hon the Lord Bishop of London.
• Diocesan/Suffragan - The Rt Revd the (Lord) Bishop of...
  (though our Diocesan doesn't do formalities. He'd be happy with 'The Right Revd the Lord')
• Asst/Retired Bish - The Rt Revd n.
• Dean - The Very Revd the Dean of...
• Provost - The Very Revd the Provost of...
• Archdeacon - The Ven the Archdeacon of...
• Canon - The Revd Canon n.
• Prebendary (wtf?) - The Revd Prebendary n.
• Cleric & Prof - The Revd Professor n.
• Canon & Prof - The Revd Canon n.
• Cleric & Doc - either:

1. The Revd n (degree)

• Other Clergy - The Revd n.

quote:

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Originally posted by babybear:

quote:

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Originally posted by CorgiGreta:
Also, some clergy are themselves fond of using the title 'Dr.' even though the doctorate is in a field other than theology, divinity, or church studies. It may be technically correct but seems to border on a slight deception.

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There is no maybe about it! Most people have to work damned hard to get a PhD. They are most worthy of using the title "Dr" as and when they choose. The fact that the doctorate is not in Theology does not matter in the slightest. If someone is really interested they will ask.

bb

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quote:

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from Regina Caeli's list:
Prebendary (wtf?) - The Revd Prebendary n.

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A quick peek at a couple of dictionaries yielded variations on this:
"A prebendary is a member of clergy, usually Anglican, who receives a prebend. A prebend is a stipend received by a member of the clergy."

The Webster's 1828 Dictionary yielded this, which is a bit more helpful.

And the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica has this.

Or you might want to read Anthony Trollope's Barchester novels!

[fixed a bunch of my own typos ]

[ 30 July 2002, 16:30: Message edited by: jlg ]
 

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Posted by Sean (# 51) on :
 
I'm probably wrong on this, but my understanding is that some cathedrals (eg Exeter) have Prebendaries rather than Canon's. The (purely honourary) role is much the same.
 

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Posted by Joan the Dwarf (# 1283) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by multipara:

Nunc, I've been around a lot of nuns and the only Reverend Mother I've met in the last 30 years is the Reverend Mother Inferior of the traditionally attired Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence

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Ah yes, those wonderful Sisters...

One of them got ordained this Petertide. He once told me the Church had better drag than the scene
 

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Posted by Regina Caeli (# 2343) on :
 
Ah, I see now. Thanks jlg and Sean.

RC x
 

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Posted by Chapelhead (# 1143) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
Would you suggest that clergy with other degrees ( i.e. lower degrees, not theology ) should disown them as well?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
The only area I know of is pharmacy ( although I suspect other areas of medicine are similar ) where pharmacists with doctorates are not permitted to call themselves doctors, on the ( very reasonable ) basis that it would be confusing.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
More on prebendaries.

preaching when Mr Dean has a hangover.

I was under the impression that following the reform of cathedral governance, Prebs were to be abolished and replaced by canons, but perhaps this is not correct.

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Well Sean is right in that Exeter still has Prebendaries, (title, RevPreb) so unless it is just that Exeter enjoys being quaint , read into that what you will!
 

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Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
I belonged to an ECUSA church in New Hampshire where the children were expected to call the clergy Pastor Sally or Pastor Bob.

The adults just called them by their first names.

Pastor does have the advantage of being a gender-neutral term. Of course, it's suitable only for parish clergy.

Moo
 

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Posted by multipara (# 2918) on :
 
To CorgiGreta,

Were your Latin and typing teachers religious or lay?

Just wondering,

m
 

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Posted by multipara (# 2918) on :
 
All this beings back fond memories of a now-deceased A-C (and formerly R-C layman) priest who was mightily put out over lunch when asked (in all politeness) by an R-C matron to "Please pass the gravy, Parson Hart".

I was not aware until now that all RC bishops had an honorary DD and could be addressed as "Dr". Fortunately the only one here who seems to insist on this is our very own Dr Pell , but he at least earned his 2 doctorates-there has to be something to be said for this!

In the work situation, I have been addressed as "Dr" despite being but a married bachelor. These days I get "Ma'am"-rather nice for a middle-ageing multipara. Probably not unsuitable as an honorific for a woman priest-and perhaps "your ladyship" for a bishop?
 

---

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
Lincoln has prebendaries too, as well as blue cassocks.

One thing I've noticed is that in the States the clergy who are called "Father" or "Mother" tend to follow this with their surnames ("Father Mead", "Mother Picard" etc.) while in the UK it seems to be "Father Ted", "Mother Mavis" etc.
 

---

Posted by Chapelhead (# 1143) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by rachel_o:
If I understand the system correctly, curates in the CofE are ordained and then spend about a year working in a parish before being priested. Now, I call our curate Penny, but if I were trying to do things properly, should I have called her different things before and after her priesting?

---

Although I'm not sure, I think that the answer to this is that prior to her priesting she would have been a Deacon. Being at that point in holy orders, you would have been correct to refer to her as "The Revd J Smith". However, as she was not a priest I think it would have been incorrect to call her "Mother" (or "Father" or whatever else one believes it correct to call a priest).

Life is much simpler in places where first names are universal. If one of the regulars called our Rector 'Father' he would assume that they were taking the p***. And he'd be right.
 

---

Posted by Edward Green (# 46) on :
 
There seems to be some debate over the calling of Deacons Mthr/Mthr.

I will continue my research.
 

---

Posted by The Coot (# 220) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by CorgiGreta:
I have encountered people (even an Anglican or two) who apply the title 'Dr.' to all non-Catholic, non-Orthodox clergy, regardless of whether or not they have an earned or unearned doctorate.

Also, some clergy are themselves fond of using the title 'Dr.' even though the doctorate is in a field other than theology, divinity, or church studies. (Shades of Dr. Laura, whose degree is not in the area of psychology?). It may be technically correct but seems to border on a slight deception.

---

I don't have source, but I believe the correct way to address a Doctor of Divinity is: 'The Reverend Doctor Fred Bloggs'; while for a non-divinity doctorate one may say: 'Doctor, The Reverend Fred Blogss'
 

---

Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
Proper or not, I suppose the reason I so dislike using "Mrs," "Mr," etc. for the clergy is that I cannot get past its "down with popery" ring. It seems very protestant for those of us who consider ourselves to be pillars of Reformed Catholicism. (I equally shrink from parson because it seems to imply "rather than priest.")

That aside, in my lengthy and totally undistinguished career, during which I have met those with distinguished ones, I would say that I've known at least as many clergy whose doctoral degrees were in other fields than were in theology. I do not object to "Dr" (if the title is earned) because it is an academic title which does not imply that one is protesting against appearing too catholic.

I must say that I think that, in regard to the Church (and I am speaking of speech amongst Christians, not formal documents or media coverage), I greatly prefer that names in baptism (or religion) be used - they are far more important than the names of families.

The topic of address for the clergy, in informal situations, would make an interesting poll.
 

---

Posted by Regina Caeli (# 2343) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by rachel_o:
If I understand the system correctly, curates in the CofE are ordained and then spend about a year working in a parish before being priested. Now, I call our curate Penny, but if I were trying to do things properly, should I have called her different things before and after her priesting?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amos:
If Angelus Domini makes it through the process he must not stamp his foot like the little butterfly in the story when such things occur.

---

Awwwww! But I stamp so well!

I hear what you're saying though Amos. Seeing as there is yet quite a lot of time before anything could even begin to happen, I suppose I have time to ponder on these things.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Newman's Own:
Proper or not, I suppose the reason I so dislike using "Mrs," "Mr," etc. for the clergy is that I cannot get past its "down with popery" ring. It seems very protestant for those of us who consider ourselves to be pillars of Reformed Catholicism. (I equally shrink from parson because it seems to imply "rather than priest.")

---

I agree NO, it does come across as if making the point that the idea of the ordained priesthood is something from which we must distance ourselves.

"I'm deliberately calling you Mr and not Fr, because you're not a priest."

I also agree that Baptismal names ought to be the norm: Fr Richard, rather than Fr Taylor, mind you, Richard Taylor doesn't answer to 'Father' anyway; he just looks around to make sure you're talking to him.

RC x
 

---

Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
Slightly off topic, but another example of how purposely eliminating titles can be forms of promoting an agenda: A few years ago, I attended an RC service (some special occasion), and a priest who was about 100 years old was there. One nun whom I knew had a near-obsession with how the Church oppressed women - so much so that she just about anything sent her off on a tirade.

Another priest, seeing Sister R, introduced his senior with, "Have you met Monsignor X?" R immediately, and very tartly, reproached this old gentleman with, "Don't you think I'm going to call any man 'my Lord' with how the Church treats women!" An extreme case, to be sure, but one I'm not likely to forget soon.

Little true story I'd like to share with Regina Coeli, since he is so generous with his kisses: One of the Irish RC bishops, recognised while he was dining in a restaurant, had a young lady ask him for his autograph, which he provided - prefixing his name with the usual cross. Afterward, the grateful girl bob a curtsey, and add, "And thanks for the week kiss, My Lord."
 

---

Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
Sorry - I meant "added" thanks for the "wee" kiss... Practising for when I become pope on this thread must have left me weary.
 

---

Posted by Regina Caeli (# 2343) on :
 
Gosh! Bishops being approached for their autographs.

Surely you just give their ring a kiss.

Thanks NO. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[run-on lines of text overcome the formatting]

[ 31 July 2002, 16:50: Message edited by: Hooker's Trick ]
 

---

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
If I might be permitted to add some more trivia to this thread; in Victorian and pre-Victorian times, RC secular (viz., diocesan) priests were called Mr Jones, and regular clergy (belonging to an order or a religious community) were Fr Jones. I tried using this approach for a year or so, but found that too many of my interlocutors were confused or thought that I was just odd.

In Latin circles (pace Jesuitical Lad) in Canada and the US, permanent deacons are Mr Smith, and priests are called Fr Smith. Some Byzantine-rite clergy copy this, and others use the Deacon Basil or Father Wolodomyr approach.

For my own part, I am more and more leaning toward being OTT Slavic in my approach and calling Anglican clergy "Unworthy Priest-in-Charge Gladys" or "Sinful Deacon Lavinia." Surely they can't complain.
 

---

Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
Ahhhh, am I enjoying the title trivia!

John Paul, of course, has a monumenal number of titles, "Servant of the Servants" of God among them. I remember an old joke about how, with bishops being servant of the servant of the servants, priests servants of (etc.), the laity remained just rich people with servant problems. Various religious Orders, Franciscans among them, referred to the superiors as "Servant" in one fashion or another - but my traditionalism ends there, largely because, in recent years, many congregations have used the title "Servant," "Minister" and so forth in order to mean "not superior." (One cannot tell adults what to do... in that mindset. I especially loathe such terms as "president.")

Of course, forms of address, intended to be warm, can become silly if they are used otherwise. The Poor Clares had a custom of the novices addressing their novice mistresses as "Dear Mistress." It was supposed to be loving, of course, but sometimes led to dreadful congregational newsletters having some starry-eyed nunlet writing a chronicle of her day containing such gems as "And then Dear Mistress instructed us in custody of the senses."

I'm working from memory (and my Latin was never any better than the horrid variety of English I for some reason have been using on this thread today...), but, as I recall, the Roman Catholic practise during Mass was for a celebrant who was a bishop to say "and I, your unworthy servant" during the part of the Eucharistic Prayer which refers to "together with Suchandsuch our pope, Soandso our bishop." I really like that, but I doubt that Unworthy Servant Richard will fall into vogue any time soon.
 

---

Posted by Edward Green (# 46) on :
 
I can find no more info on what to call a Deacon, apart from that Orthodox guide I linked to earlier which expressed the posibility that a Deacon may be called Father.
 

---

Posted by Edward Green (# 46) on :
 
Double Post. Sorry.

In the Orthodox church Father/Mother Deacon seems to be universal. I will therefore adress my new deaconed friends thus.

Father / Mother Deacon
 

---

Posted by Chapelhead (# 1143) on :
 
In Orthodoxy (but not, as noted above, in Anglicanism) Deacons are indeed styled 'Father', as are monks, whether or not they are Priests.
 

---

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
As a female Anglican priest in an English diocese, I'm called many things by different people! The parishioners call me by my first name, with no title; which seems to be perfectly comfortable to all of us. The kids I visit in school call me 'Reverend.....' followed by my first name, which seems to get across the message that I'm from the church but still marginally human.

When I'm doing funeral/baptism/marriage visits to usually non-churchy folk, I usually get labelled 'vicar'; though I'm not a vicar, but an Assistant Curate (as someone has pointed out 'vicar, rector' etc, are job-titles). But I don't worry about it. For the person who wondered about 'vicars' and 'rectors'. Rectors in the parish setting are usually the senior cleric set in charge over a number of Vicars - a bit like a managing director with his/her department managers, the 'departments' being other parishes. You often find this in team settings, where numbers of parishes have been combined into a Team Ministry working together, while maintaining the individualism of each parish. Often a rector will have his/her own parish church as well.

In our diocese I've yet to hear any female priest referred to as 'Mother' and am not sure how I'd feel being called this, though I'd probably get used to it. I imagine it would be more a high-church thing, though, just as 'Father' usually is. Sometimes, usually ironically, I'm referred to as 'Reverend'. Once or twice I have been called 'Padre' (there are two RAF bases within spitting distance of my town). Invariably, our local funeral director likes to refer to me in front of clients as 'The Reverend N******', which somehow makes me sound like a monument or institutional facility (maybe I am?!)

It might just be where I happen to live at the moment, but few people seem to have difficulty with calling their clergy by their first name; though I respect those who were brought up - as I was - to use a special term of address to clerics, and find the informality a bit unsettling.
 

---

Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
In my little corner of RC-dom, the use of Father Firstname vs Father Lastname is purely a function of the age of the priest. Currently the dividing line is running at a little over 60 yrs of age.
 

---

Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 
Carrying on the interesting tangent on curates and assistant curates...

Theological students are ordained deacon, and are asst. curates in a training parish for a year. Then they get ordained priets (priested?)
Once said deacon has been priested and played at asst. curate for 2/3 more years, they usually move on to getting their opwn parish. However, some larger parishes have 'proper' priests (i.e. those who have been ordained for more than 4 years) as asst. curates - for example HTB, that fount of good practice. Our church has an asst. curate, who was priested in June. She currently plans to stay with us for the next 3-4 years, and possibly beyond The vicar has a large enough workload that she is definitely very needed here! I enquired of her, and she said that she can technically stay here for the rest of her working life, although that would probably be frowned upon, as we are her training parish and she should geain exposure to other parishes and churches at some point

Parson is an old term recently defined in our church magazine Here's the definition:
For years clergy have been unofficially called parsons. The word means the person. Before the days of probation officers, social services and citizens' advice bureaux, the parson was the person to go to. Allocting money to the poor, coping with vagrants, overseeing almshouses were all his concerns. He was not the most important person in the community, but ordinary people could not approach important folk like the Lord of the Manor with their concerns. The parish priest was the person to go to with problems or in times of need. These days vicars do not hold such a commanding community role(!). Hence the term parson is rarely used - and then mostly by elderly people in remote communities

Viki
 

---

Posted by Edward Green (# 46) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chapelhead:
In Orthodoxy (but not, as noted above, in Anglicanism) Deacons are indeed styled 'Father', as are monks, whether or not they are Priests.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Regina Caeli:
Afterthought,

What d'you call a female bishop?

m'Lady?

Perhaps some of you folk across the pond could give some advice here.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amos:
Lincoln has prebendaries too, as well as blue cassocks.

---

Yes and no. Or rather, yes and no and yes.

As far as I'm aware Prebendaries and Canons are the same thing and have been for more years than anyone cares to remember. Some cathedrals (e.g. Exeter and London) call 'em Prebendaries but most call them Canons. Originally, a Canon would have been in receipt of a financial benefit derived from a Parish (where he might never go!) called a Prebend.

Thus, a canon has a seat in the Choir of the Cathedral called a Prebendal Stall - a prebend and a canonry are the same thing.

Members of Chapter at Lincoln Cathedral are, and always have been, called Canons not Prebendaries. Forgive me the sin of pride, but I claim considerable experience of Lincoln Chapter!

Several cathedrals have their own coloured cassocks - a foundation colour. Lincoln's cassocks are dyed with a unique dye known as "Lincoln blue" which makes it sound nice and old fashioned, like "Lincoln Red" and "Lincoln Green". It's actually a fairly modern tradition.

Corpus
 

---

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
Thanks for the correction, Corpus; I was recalling the announcement when an acquaintance was made one---we were told he was now a prebendary.
 

---

Posted by oldlccboy (# 1040) on :
 
As one who does not accept the ordination of women, but who does run into several such individuals, one in the course of a professional involvement, one married to a friend, I simply call them by their first names, which of course I would hardly do to a male priest.

My practice has the advantage of a) being to their liking, since most of them are fairly informal and liberal(as they would have to be given their innovative status in Catholic Christendom) and b) not giving them a status out of courtesy or awkwardness which I do not believe they possess in fact.

Don't yell. And don't tell me my role as a Baptismal Minister is also innovative, informal and liberal. It is. But I am not asking anyone to denominate me in any particular way !
 

---

Posted by Nunc Dimittis (# 848) on :
 

quote:

---

a) being to their liking, since most of them are fairly informal and liberal

---

By all means tell us you don't "believe" in women priests, oldlccboy, but this is a stunningly chauvinist assumption, however you view it.

How do you know that it is "to their liking"? Let alone that most of them are informal and "liberal"?

And not giving them a courtesy title (regardless of what you believe about their canonical status) strikes me as malicious and rude, however much they might "like" being called by their first names only. **
Especially when you would "never dream" of calling a male priest anything other than "Father". We call Jewish synagogue leaders "Rabbi", we call Islamic leaders "Imam", we accord all sorts of other courtesy titles to those who don't agree with us. I see no reason not to accord respect to women who in the eyes of most of us in the Anglican church, have been ordained. They too have been trained like men, and serve as men do. If for nothing else they should be respected in a courteous way.

We know you don't like women priests because of blah blah blay reasons. It's fine for you not to like them.

But what isn't fine is the way you talk about them - as though you have such a hatred for women who might be chosen and ordained in different areas of the church, to the "undermining" of "true religion" etc etc.

A bit of graciousness about the issue would go a long way.

**Saying "They like it" sounds similar to me to the age old assumption that women "like being raped." Remind me NOT to stop by your place...
 

---

Posted by Benedictus (# 1215) on :
 
Thank you, Nunc. I thought all that same stuff, but I wouldn't have said it nearly so well.
 

---

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
A person who calls all male clergy by a title of courtesy and first-names all female clergy would inevitably give the impression that he wished to make a point of his contempt for ordained women. However the clergy receive it, it makes the person in question look very bad. Really, I should reconsider this custom.
I would also contest the assumption that theologically orthodox High Churchwomen are not likely to have vocations to the priesthood.
All of this reminds me of the occasion a few weeks ago when I was in Croydon, having business in Lunar House. It took all day, it was the kind of thing that one wears a black suit and collar for, and I was exhausted when I came out, having a long journey home ahead of me. Seeing a church open, I went in to sit down for a few minutes of quiet. But it took less time than that for a person to appear at my elbow saying , "This is a Forward in Faith Parish." When I didn't seem to realize what was meant, the words were repeated.
 

---

Posted by Rowen (# 1194) on :
 
I agree with the last few posters most wholeheartedly.....
Rev. Rowen
 

---

Posted by The Coot (# 220) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amos:
It took all day, it was the kind of thing that one wears a black suit and collar for, and I was exhausted when I came out, having a long journey home ahead of me. Seeing a church open, I went in to sit down for a few minutes of quiet. But it took less time than that for a person to appear at my elbow saying , "This is a Forward in Faith Parish." When I didn't seem to realize what was meant, the words were repeated.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad:
I understand that some call female priests "father", but if for no other reason than the word itself being masculine, doesn't this jar a bit? I can see "mother" working, but the rationale for "father" seems a bit obscure.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Coot:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amos:
But it took less time than that for a person to appear at my elbow saying , "This is a Forward in Faith Parish."

---

How does one respond in these circumstances?

---

What about :- "That's alright, together we can pull through."?

Corpus
(who would happily have a woman priest on the staff just to p**s off the people who are as rude as those you describe. Theology is one thing, but bad manners are something entirely different. There's simply no escuse.... )
 

---

Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :
 
[Geneva Gown ON AGAIN!]
Ok.. let me say again... we are not going to discuss the subject of women in the priesthood or how they are treated by various parishes or groups in this thread. As requested earlier, either start a new discussion in Hell, or add it to the Men and women? Merely different plumbing? thread in Dead Horses.
[Geneva Gown OFF--and it better hadn't go on again for this thread!]
 

---

Posted by Decanus (# 2824) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Regina Caeli:

Prebendary (wtf?) - The Revd Prebendary

---

As I understand it 'old foundation' cathedrals have Prebendaries and 'new foundation' cathedrals have Hon. Canons. No difference in status, just in title.

As regards the original question - a priest who's a bloke is 'Father', so what's wrong with 'Mother' for a woman?!

By the by - the use of the term 'Rev' as a form of addressing someone is OK if used with the Christian name - i.e. Rev Robert or Rev Roberta. Incorrect is Rev Jones.
 

---

Posted by Decanus (# 2824) on :
 
Apologies for the double post.

RC, my dear, dear friend, why the (wtf?)?
 

---

Posted by babybear (# 34) on :
 
Some suggestions...

• esteemed brood-sybling
• non-genetic parental unit
  

bb
 

---

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
or with the form of address used by a former churchwarden to any female in the church;

either:

'ello Maid

or:

'ello Flowerrrrr

both said with great affection
 

---

Posted by Cosmo (# 117) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Decanus:
By the by - the use of the term 'Rev' as a form of addressing someone is OK if used with the Christian name - i.e. Rev Robert or Rev Roberta. Incorrect is Rev Jones.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rhisiart:
As to 'vicars' and 'rectors', I was told that (at least until team vicars and rectorial benefices came about) the title depended on the accommodation -that is, if the parish had a Vicarage the incumbent was called Vicar, and if there was a Rectory he was called Rector. It seems as sensible as any other reason in the Church of England!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cosmo:
That is not correct at all.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sarkycow:

Parson is an old term recently defined in our church magazine Here's the definition:
For years clergy have been unofficially called parsons. The word means the person. Before the days of probation officers, social services and citizens' advice bureaux, the parson was the person to go to. Allocting money to the poor, coping with vagrants, overseeing almshouses were all his concerns. He was not the most important person in the community, but ordinary people could not approach important folk like the Lord of the Manor with their concerns. The parish priest was the person to go to with problems or in times of need. These days vicars do not hold such a commanding community role(!). Hence the term parson is rarely used - and then mostly by elderly people in remote communities

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Decanus:
So I repeat my assertion that it is not inappropriate to use the term 'Rev' with the Christian name.

---

It does seem to come down to whether you are CofE or not. CofE revs refer to themselves and others as "the Revd John Smith", whereas non-conformists called themselves "Rev John Smith".

bb
 

---

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
"Please Mistress - anything but the whip!!" usually works for me.....
 

---

Posted by Matt Koovisk (# 4434) on :
 
Out here in British Columbia, we usually address all clergy by their first names...

On the Rector/Vicar question; if I remember correctly, isn't a Rector in charge of a self-supporting parish (whether it be one church or many churches) and a Vicar in charge of a parish whether it be one church or many churches) supported by the diocese?

Another question, is the term "Incumbent" used alot in Europe and in places other than British Columbia?
 

---

Posted by Rowen (# 1194) on :
 
I have been known to respond to "Hey you" and even "Thingie"! (But only from my friends, not parishioners)
 

---

Posted by Augustine the Aleut (# 1472) on :
 
I am open to correctino on this, but I have been led to believe that Incumbent is the canonical and legal term used for the priest responsible for a parish in the diocese of Ottawa, owing to a precise legal use of the word Rector, originating in the early 1800s when the Governor and Council established Rectories. My informant (now gathered among the the celestial choir of archdeacons) told me that those instituted as Rectors to those parishes (Cornwall, Smith's Falls, Perth and Bytown/Ottawa were irremovable, causing inconvenience to bishops who liked to move their clergy about.
 

---

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 
The priest at the church to which I seem to be returning is quite happy to be called "Mother Leslie," and as I have accepted the validity of the ordination of women (for those who didn't know this, since I posted a lot beforehand) I am happy to call her that as well.

David
 

---

Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :
 
Geneva Gown ON
Welcome aboard, Matt Koovisk!
Just a reminder that you should check out the Ship's FAQs and the 10 Commandments (in case you haven't already read them), which explain how things are run.
Geneva Gown OFF

[ 23. April 2003, 17:21: Message edited by: Siegfried ]
 

---

Posted by Adrian1 (# 3994) on :
 
I would just be natural and address her (as I do male clergy who don't object) by the Christian name.


 

---

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Koovisk:
Another question, is the term "Incumbent" used alot in Europe and in places other than British Columbia?

---

In the CofE it is the technical term for what everyone calls the "vicar". It is different to a "priest in charge" (who can be sacked) or a "curate" (who is temporary)
 

---

Posted by Panis Angelicus (# 3795) on :
 
On topic, I was interested to see a resolution for the upcoming General Convention of the Episcopal Church which would mandate equality in forms of address for those ordained in the ECUSA, regardless of gender. Some church periodicals persist in calling female clergy of all orders "Miss/Ms./Mrs.", and my hunch is that this is directed specifically toward their editorial practice. This would seem to be a resolution likely to pass without very much debate, though on that I could be wrong.
 

---

Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
I was pleased to see that Lucy Winkett is now 'Canon and Precentor' which should simplify the matter of how to address her. (I never know how to address a minor canon)
 

---

Posted by Sacristan (# 3548) on :
 
The resolution in question probably is meant to address The Living Church's custom of calling all male priests "Father" while females are labeled "Miss, Ms,Mrs.". I do not understand how General Convention can change that since The Living Church is an independent magazine, not under the auspices of The Episcopal Church.

I hope that the resolution does not try to further dictate parish usage as far as how to address clergy. Most resolutions calling for inclusiveness usually mean "be inclusive-this is how-only those who think like we do are inclusive."
 

---

Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 
I suppose "Yo! Mama!" is out of the question.

But seriously, has anybody mentioned that you might just ask her how she would like to be addressed?

Reader Alexis
 

---

Posted by Al Eluia (# 864) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Koovisk:
Out here in British Columbia, we usually address all clergy by their first names...

On the Rector/Vicar question; if I remember correctly, isn't a Rector in charge of a self-supporting parish (whether it be one church or many churches) and a Vicar in charge of a parish whether it be one church or many churches) supported by the diocese?

Another question, is the term "Incumbent" used alot in Europe and in places other than British Columbia?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Koovisk:

Another question, is the term "Incumbent" used alot in Europe and in places other than British Columbia?

---

Yes, in Saskatchewan it is.
 

---

Posted by Mr Cantata (# 3304) on :
 
Being from the Diocese of Bible Believing Sydney, I would have to say that we should all be Brothers and Sisters.

I had the term "Mother Maxine" sprung on me at a mass recently, referring to a religious working in our community. The cringe factor in the congregation was very evident.

So, in my moment of revealed Sydney Diocese truth, Brothers and Sisters embrace each other with your correct title.

Sister Mr Contemplative

 

---

Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Panis Angelicus:
On topic, I was interested to see a resolution for the upcoming General Convention of the Episcopal Church which would mandate equality in forms of address for those ordained in the ECUSA, regardless of gender.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Newman's Own:
I never lived anywhere that it would have been considered appropriate (quite the contrary) to address the clergy (or those of an older generation) as "John or Jane" unless one was invited to do so - but I'm wondering if, within a generation, there will be a uniform "Mr or Mrs/Ms/Miss" in print, and a standard John or Jane in speech.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Amos:
A person who calls all male clergy by a title of courtesy and first-names all female clergy would inevitably give the impression that he wished to make a point of his contempt for ordained women. However the clergy receive it, it makes the person in question look very bad. Really, I should reconsider this custom.
I would also contest the assumption that theologically orthodox High Churchwomen are not likely to have vocations to the priesthood.
All of this reminds me of the occasion a few weeks ago when I was in Croydon, having business in Lunar House. It took all day, it was the kind of thing that one wears a black suit and collar for, and I was exhausted when I came out, having a long journey home ahead of me. Seeing a church open, I went in to sit down for a few minutes of quiet. But it took less time than that for a person to appear at my elbow saying , "This is a Forward in Faith Parish." When I didn't seem to realize what was meant, the words were repeated.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mousethief:
I suppose "Yo! Mama!" is out of the question.

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Only if she's a famous musician.

Sorry, that's Yo-Yo Ma. My mistake.
 

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Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 
I don't care what address people use for me, so long as there's a big fat cheque in the envelope!
 

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Posted by CorgiGreta (# 443) on :
 
Ken,

In the United States, there is no divide between Anglo-Catholics and "the rest" regarding addressing a priest as father. Here, for example is a local full-fledged evangelical parish that has no qualms about adddressing their rector as "Father".

http://stjamesnewportbeach.org/

Greta
 

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Posted by Sine Nomine (# 3631) on :
 
Greta, since the rector of that church is named the Rev. Praveen Bunyan, I think "father" is definitely the way to go.
 

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Posted by Lyda Rose of Sharon (# 4544) on :
 
The first woman priest I knew was adamantly opposed to being addressed as "Mother"- thought it made her sound like the head of a convent. She decided to be called Vicar. Only Vicar. Paired with her given name it would be Vicar Victoria. Her Bishop, Robert, joked that they should start a Vicar Vicky and Bishop Bob Show.

My current rector is addressed as Mother Joanna, Joanna, or jauntily as MoJo.

I'm not sure if this got explained at some point but in ECUSA a vicar is a priest of a mission church, a church being supported under the care and guidance of the diocese. The vicar is hired by the diososan bishop. A rector is the priest of a self-supporting parish and is hired and paid by that parish. At least that how I've always understood it.

Lyda Rose
 

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Posted by basso (# 4228) on :
 
My rector strongly prefers to be called by her first name. I understand that there was a bit of a problem with some of the older members of the congregation when she arrived (this is before my time) which she settled by telling anyone who asked that they should call her either by her name or "Madam Rector".

Everybody calls her by name.

basso
 

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Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
Actually, in a formal setting, I rather like "Madam Rector" - it is dignified.
 

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Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Anselmina:
I don't care what address people use for me, so long as there's a big fat cheque in the envelope!

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quote:

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Originally posted by CorgiGreta:
In the United States, there is no divide between Anglo-Catholics and "the rest" regarding addressing a priest as father.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ken:
centre of ECUSA churchmanship is far to the ecclesiological right of the average CofE church!

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quote:

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Originally posted by CorgiGreta:
In the United States, there is no divide between Anglo-Catholics and "the rest" regarding addressing a priest as father. Here, for example is a local full-fledged evangelical parish that has no qualms about adddressing their rector as "Father".
http://stjamesnewportbeach.org/

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