Originally posted by JoyfulNoise and his Parrot, O'Kief:
Dear Poet-of-Gold;
Do you also obect to Narnia? This also has whichcraft etc in it.
L&GB
Dominic
- he prays for rain on the Mardi Gras (a Gay Pride / Rights march) each year
- he and his wife (who was a Parliamentary members also) came to parliament in pyjamas one night (it was a late sitting, apparently)
- he called Eminem the new Hitler
What annoys me about all the hype that HP is evil / leading people to Satanism etc. is that the same people aren't protesting (or are they?) against "Bewitched" and "Sabrina the Teenage Witch" - is there any difference?
Admiral H.
quote:
- he and his wife (who was a Parliamentary members also) came to parliament in pyjamas one night (it was a late sitting, apparently)
It was a late sitting, but that wasn't the reason Nile was in his PJ's.
He'd come from hospital to vote against a bill that would make it illegal for people to be vilified on the basis of their sexual preference.
(Side-anecdote. Some friends of mine resigned form the church they were going to because the church had invited Nile to speak.)
quote:
Originally posted by Admiral Holder:
is that the same people aren't protesting (or are they?) against "Bewitched"
But don't say I didn't warn you.
Sieg
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
in the universe of that show, witches were pretty much supposed to be a separate race
As a side note, the world of Bewitched, what with the witches' treatment of "mortals" as being a bit dumb and amusing at best, disapproval of "mixed" marriages, longer lifespans, and witches as a separate race with more or less separate lives, rules, government and so on, is probably closer to Harry Potter's world than most other things.
Pretty impressive stuff that some fundamentalists use to back up their ideas - like satire!
Ho-hum
Rob
quote:
Originally posted by Poet_of_Gold:
I agree with those who say that Harry Potter is dangerous. Bewitched also was a dangerous film, and I hated to see Sabrina coming on the television, produced by a company whose founder was the very icon of wholesome family entertainment. I prayed the influence of the show would be stopped. I prayed kids would not take the "candy" of watching fun special effects in exchange for their very minds and souls.It grieves me that many Christian parents went out and bought the Harry Potter books for their children. I'm afraid we have forgotten to be discriminating in our tastes, and have succumbed to the easy way of raising children, i.e. buy them whatever makes them "happy" and keeps them quiet so we have less work to do in their upbringing. This is in essence giving someone else the control of the child's mind, be it the author of a book, video game, or movie.
[ 29 December 2001: Message edited by: Siegfried ]
quote:
Originally posted by JoyfulNoise and his Parrot, O'Kief:
Dear Poet-of-Gold;
Do you also obect to Narnia? This also has whichcraft etc in it.
L&GB
Dominic
[ 29 December 2001: Message edited by: Siegfried ]
The danger lies in parents over-reacting to it. If a book is vested with so much power, then it will become powerful. If it is just treated as words on a page, to be taken or left, then fine.
If we're getting worried about reading material, why are we encouraging kids to read a book that encourages slavery, has great kings with many wives, concubines and consorting with witches, has graphic scenes of suffering, children hearing voices, and stories of battles between earth and heaven, and some jumped up little angel trying to get the better of God.
Angel
ok, dpeagleca60, i'll ask you, then.
have you actually read the harry potter books, do you have any idea what your talking about, or are you shooting off in total ignorance?
It gave me an opportunity to explain to my sons the resonances that book burning has for me & why I think burning books is far more dangerous to society than anything that might be published in them.
The danger, to me, of Christians arguing that HP is dangerous and mistaken, is that it sounds like the Durseleys, who insisted that nothing magical should be mentioned. Not only does this cause problems for them all, but it fails to keep Harry from the truth. The reality is, IMNSHO, that a supernatural world exists, and is not entirely safe. But we need to acknowledge it, and learn to handle it, not deny its existance.
Summarising - a soft drug will lead to a harder drug in a dangerous cycle of descent. Or a 'soft' occult book (HP) will lead to a 'hard' occult book.
Yep, quite possible. But its dependant on the actions of the people reading these books, and in the case of children, parental supervision should be able to control it?
However in the same way we are wary of drinking too much (well sometimes!), smoking a lot etc anything in excess can be dangerous. In the same way me in my fantasy world of books can become dangerous if you fail to able to tell the difference between a story and reality.
Well that's my twopence worth...
Period. We do untold harm to ourselves and our children (and literature in general) by trying to make fiction agree with our idea of 'fact'. The whole point of fiction is that it didn't happen, and, in the case of HP, can't happen. Good fiction (and despite my own lack of interest, I've found no evidence to suggest that HP is anything else) is there to present and represent the narratives of the human condition.
And it's fun too.
You get idiots like the recent wave of British writers who seemed to think that everything that happened in a fiction had to be completely 'realist' - or, worse, you get hamfisted morons like Frank Peretti or the two guys who wrote the Left Behind books who impose their own (well dodgy) doctrine on their fiction because they don't see fiction as symbolic narrative. They see it as polemic.
Fiction is not, should never be a sermon in disguise. It can, of course, be used to teach, and can conceal a moral - but ultimately, its purpose is not to represent what is, but rather to reflect it, hence the use of fiction to describe the impossible.
Did I say impossible? Yup.
Impossible perfectly describes HP in every respect - magic wands, dragons, three headed dogs, enchanted chess sets, boarding schools which are nice places to attend - all these things are the stuff of fantasy (especially the last one )*.
And let's face it, the magic in HP, or in Sabrina the Teenage Witch for that matter (a talking cat!) doesn't bear any resemblance whatsoever to real magic in any way whatsoever.
Christ himself was certainly not above using fictions, including impossible fictions, to get across a point - see the story of the rich man and Lazarus the beggar, for example. Everybody there would have been well aware that Lazarus and the rich man's afterlife scene was wholly made up - but they got the point.
What are we afraid of? That our children will question their faith?
__________________________________
*In fact, even the 'real world' scenes in HP are set in a mythical, fairytale middle England which does not and has never existed outside of Enid Blyton's books (by the way, Enid Blyton, although an evangelical, recognised the difference and filled many of her stories with fairies wizards, gnomes and goblins - while still banging you over the head with her old-fashioned English schoolmarm morality).
2) Nicole - form an orderly queue.
I've just got to the bit where God dies of old age. God's the baddy in these books, by the way.
quote:
Originally posted by Arietty:
1) If people want to bang on about dangerous books, why don't they start with Dennis Wheatley? (The Devil Rides Out etc). Far more likely IMO to send people looking for covens etc.2) Nicole - form an orderly queue.
Steady, girls. I'm taken.
Of course, Wheatley's the same as Potter, really - goodies and baddies and stuff.
Oh, and Karl - Pullman won't attract so much ire, despite being better that HP, because 1) it's not as popular, and if the media don't mention it, it ain't worth attacking; and 2) it's subtle. The kind of people who burn HP books don't tend to get subtlety, do they?
But I don't find this dangerous, or want to ban it. If Christians can't ride these challenges, and respond to them without wanting to burn books, and stifle argument, then we just prove to those who want to oppose us, how narrow we are and how weak are our arguments.
both my kids had to read Farenheit 451 in high school, and i'm glad they did. i haven't read Potter because i'm not really drawn to the genre, but i'm certainly not afraid of its influence...the 6 o'clock news is probably more harmful to kids.
wood's comments remind me of Nabokov's...(off the top of my head)...literature was not born the day a wolf chased a boy out of the forest yelling "wolf! wolf!" it began when a boy came running from the forest yelling "wolf! wolf!" and there was no wolf behind him.
quote:
Originally posted by Weslian:
I found Pullman's Dark Materials Trilogy powerful and challenging stuff...
But I don't find this dangerous, or want to ban it. If Christians can't ride these challenges, and respond to them without wanting to burn books, and stifle argument, then we just prove to those who want to oppose us, how narrow we are and how weak are our arguments.
I agree wholeheartedly.
Anyway... as I was saying, it annoys me a LOT that Christian people purporting to care about the welfare of kids spend so much time on crap like this when the real problems facing young people get ignored.
Do I want to add an angry face? Yes, I think I do
As to the serious point of this thread. I had friends in my University CU that almost seemed to be trying to out do each other in their misunderstanding and fear of the modern media. So they would only go and see the most un-challenging PG movies, avoid the news (I'll never forget one saying during coverage of the Balkan's War - "why don't they just build some churches in Sarejevo") and not read anything other than the bible. In the end this led to a lot of ignorance and further gave the impression to none Christians at the Uni that the local God-botheres were insane and completely out of touch.
I remember one of them once commentated negatively on my choice of music when I had the stereo on while reading the bible. Although a little NWOBHM was likely to currupt my mind.
But I could understand where some of them were coming from. Some of them were so sheltered and so nieve that they took everything literally. They were used to reading only christian books and the bible, and listening to christian music. So their idea of art or literature was something that reflected the truth of God. So when going to see see movies they couldn't understand that the events portrayed aren't necesarrily the beliefs of the director, writer or actor. They saw everything as a explanation of its creators beliefs, fiction and imagination was entirely lost on them. I know this might seem like over exageration, but believe me, if you were at Lancaster Uni from 1993-1996 you'd have been shocked by some of the CU grandees.
quote:
Originally posted by Akeldama:
I know this might seem like over exageration, but believe me, if you were at Lancaster Uni from 1993-1996 you'd have been shocked by some of the CU grandees.[/QB]
(I know this a pointless post but it means that - just for moment - I fill 4 LAst Post slots. That's a new personal best. )
Well sure, if they were real people with souls and not just characters in a crime drama. I can see it now.....
Bob DeNiro: So what if you do got me boxed in?
Al Pacino: Well you could come to my church housegroup on wednesday
Bob: That'd be really nice, thankyou
On top of that - going back briefly to the top of this thread - what ever happened to our idea that children are actually able to discriminate between right and wrong and between fact, fictin and fantasy? I feel that sometimes children have a better grasp on reality and 'real' life than adults ever have because we have somehow lost the ability to free renage our imaginations and expand our boundaries beyond the comfortable, safe (for us) and familiar)
Or is that me just haveing a strop at the end of a rather busy day???
But it's not just kids. Holyywood is constantly turning out incredibly porked version of history and I'm sad to say far too many people actually believe this stuff. For example we've had Braveheart (no sign of Wallace as the middle-class landowner here), The Messenger - Joan of Arc (which i liked as a movie but it was something of a character assination on poor Joan), The Patriot (why doesn't Mel like us Brits???? ). This week sees the release of Behind Enemy Lines. Europe is still picking up the pieces of the Balkan Wars and already we have a gung-ho videogame of a movie about it. I'm hoping Ridley Scott has at least approached Black Hawk Down sensibly, it was after all, a shocking tragedy and there's no reason to turn it into an excuse for flagwaving.
But I've digressed slightly. I think too many movies these days have too much of a sense of right and wrong. That leaves nothing for viewer, and nothing to really discuss with kids. How can you ask whether the characters made the right decisions or what they would have done, where the whole thing is given on a plate on screen?
But first an apology for my incomplete post above. I was about to agree with Akeldama on the terrible state some people, especially at Uni CU's, get themselves into, when I was called away from the PC and clicked the wrong thing. Whoops, sorry.
However, I can now reveal that I was also at Lancaster Uni (between 95 and 97) and can vouch for the behaviour of some it's members. I lasted a mere one and half meetings before giving up whimpering. I did however have a friend who kept going (she felt she had to) and was often surprised by the comments people could come out with.
I have had several long (and now very tediuos) discussions with people about Harry Potter and find that most people have let others make their minds up for them and are very suspicous of anyone with a different veiw. It can be very difficult.
Although on the whole good/bad fiction thing I was recently told that science fiction is generally fine, it's just fantasy (or especially anything that refers to 'magic') is bad. Has anyone else come across this attitude? Can anyone come up with a plausable explanation for it?
Toria
Anyway, in reply to your last question. I've experience of people who only read books they take literaly, whether that's the Bible, commentary's, Christian life books, etc.
Now when they see something like JFK they believe everything that happens on screen. Because they are used to believing stuff, whether in books or movies. Now when it comes to fantasy books with magic and witchcraft they may read these things and believe them then worry everyone else is as equelly unable to cope with the concept of fiction.
Why fantasy more than sci-fi. Firstly I think it is a misunderstanding of the genre. For those who haven't read such books there is often the belief these books tend to be full of people summoning demons and casting spells, with the spells written out in longhand for prospective young wizards to try out at home. This is of course not the norm. From the works of Fantasy I've read in the last few years, and certainly the higher quality works such as those by Tad Williams or Robin Hobb, the nature of magic is never fully explained. In fact it is rarely of the eye-of-newt variety at all. I've never read any fantasy where the magic is of a nature similar to spells and rituals you might find in one of Alastair Crowley's books (fyi a famous....erm...wizard, or satanist, magus, or plain nutcake, whatever you fancy ). Magic in fantasy (and in Lord of Rings Certainly - the Hobbits are disappointed to discover) is often about different abilities folks have and of nature, not black masses and cauldrons full of demonic concoctions.
Role playing has often suffered the same criticisms. Some Christian campaigners let it be known that the spells in the first Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying set actually worked, a boon for the game's maker, but of service to no-one except those who thing we are nutters.
While not someone who has read a load of fantasy (more of a sci-fi fan) I would recommend Tad William's Memory, Sorrow & Thorn. This fantasy series is set in a world not unlike our medieval period. There's even a religion, the Aedonites, who worship Usires Aedon, who became man and was executed on a tree. It's a clear Christian parralel and allows for some interesting background, a grounded religion and some thought-provoking what if's. The religion isn't really the point of the story, but it does add an interesting background.
Sieg
quote:
Some Christian campaigners let it be known that the spells in the first Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying set actually worked
I wish they did. Casting Locate Item has to be better than turning the house over making snipping motions with the fingers trying to find a pair of scissors.
(I know someone who claimed her brother had this. Seriously.)
Hope
It's all about perception.
quote:
Only slowly did the truth dawn on me - they didn't like the stuff......
It always amazes me that so many people dislike SF and Fantasy so vehemently. There's obviously something about the very concept that really rubs some people up the wrong way (my mother!), and conversely really enthuses other (sane ) people. Which is strange but OK by me.
What gets me is when some Christians justify their own problem with SF&F by deciding that God doesn't like it. 
But then, that's nothing new.
Excuse me while I go and deal with this plank I seem to have discovered... *sigh*
Hope
quote:
Originally posted by Karl:
I was always amazed at how it was that someone who spent hours each week playing RPGs was 'addicted', but no concerns were raised over people who spent that much time playing sports.It's all about perception.
Perception, my arse.
Sport is good for you, makes you healthier, better looking, and generally more fun to be around.
If you roleplay too much, you end up listening to crap old rock music, growing your hair out and growing a beard.
I listen to crap old rock music, have grown my hair out and have a beard and I've never been into role-playing.
However, I do own several guitars, that perhaps is the other cause of this premature hippiness in twenty-somethings.
I find it odd that roleplaying is always portrayed as a very male thing. Many of the people I know who still play are women. Or perhaps thats just my friends.
Toria
BTW, since you asked Akeldama, I was in Bowland colege and spent an unhealthy amount of time in the bar.
It used to freak us out when heading to the football pitches or the bar to see folks dressed as robin hood running around the campus engaged in battle with plastic swords. Bet it frightened the peacocks too.
quote:
Originally posted by Toria:
I... spent an unhealthy amount of time in the bar.
huh? i don't understand...
As for the live role players, oh yes I remeber them. There's nothing like bumping into people dressed as elves or orcs (usually with green faces) in Spar. Standing in the queue behind an elf with a pint of milk first thing in the morning is an interesting way to start the day.
For any folks who are very confused, some people can think of no better way to spend a saturday morning than dressing up in silly frocks and running around with rubber swords. Come to think of it it all sounds like some forms of alternative worship.
Toria
Returning to the topic at hand (sorry about the digression ) I recently watched a documentary about the recording of Iron Maiden's Number of the Beast. The band were astonished that when touring the states people were burning their records and calling them satanists. Again I think it's a matter of perception, people often judge by the cover and bands (and author's) works are misrepresented. I doubt any of the record burners actually knew anything about the content of the record or the thoughts, influences por beliefs of the band. (incidently, Bruce Dickinson's version of 'Jerusalem' on The Chemical Wedding is rather splendid).
Harry potter is a wizard, burn it, ban it. Seems a little kneejerk. But I have a confession to make, never read any JK Rowling so it could be Satanic Rites for all I know, so I'll shut up.
I've never done any LARP, but totally fail to see why it's any weirder a way to spend a Saturday morning than playing with a ball for ninety minutes.
quote:
Originally posted by Karl:
Ignore Wood, he's just trolling for me.
Damn.
Rumbled.
quote:
He's also totally embarrassed by the fact that he's really into comic books and RPGs himself.
Too right I am. When you look at all the other people into the same stuff... do I want to be tarred with the same brush? I think not. I just discovered over at the 2000AD Message Board that they're all metallers. 
Of course it's embarrassing to be associated with people like that.
quote:
When are you going to get the courage to be yourself, Wood
I am myself. It's just myself is fatally aware that I'm into this stuff
I am myself. Myself is fatally embarrassed to be associated with that kind of stuff. Ask me about rowing or mountain biking instead.
You've repeatedly slated me when I've slagged off dance music, pointing out that it's a matter of taste.
Given that, how can it be bad to be into heavy metal? It's just a different taste.
So your music tastes don't match the majority of comic book readers. So? You might be miffed if people assume you're a metalhead, but why be embarrassed?
quote:
Originally posted by Umbrella:
Wood - rowing?
All together now - 'tis pity he's an oar
-------------------------------------------
some confusion here? Or someone who's not going to be over-influenced by the boss?
Sieg
quote:
[irony mode] The spells in Dungeons and dragons actually work! Really how did they find this out? [/irony mode]
One does wonder what planet the "D&D is a gateway to the realms of Beelzebub" lot are coming from. If the average nerdy adolescent could cast spells on people they wouldn't be spending all that time pretending to be Halibut the Elf, or whoever. (There is, naturally, a highly witty and entertaining Chick Tract on the subject.)
PS The bit about nerdy adolescents was autobiographical, not a dig at anyone else here.
PPS Whaddya mean, Chick Tracts aren't parody?
quote:
Incidentally I remember reading a book - I think it was by Alan Gardener, which DID feature an actual celtic spell of summoning. There was a footnote in the book saying that the spell was genuine but wasn't printed in full lest someone impressionable try to cast it.
It was by Alan Gardener - he said that all the spells in the Weirdstone and the follow up were geniune Celtic spells that he'd found at the BL and he didn't write them out in full in case someone impressionable did try to cast it AND because he wasn't keen on the idea of calling something up himself.
Alan Gardener, of course, was not wildly successful so the boycott-this-its-dodgy-brigade never bothered with him
[I used to work in a children's library - the tales I could tell .... ]
Tubbs
[wishful]Then the kindly president of the society told him the CU were next door and he was in the gamers club [/wishful]
But I suppose asking him why its any different from acting, was a bit harsh.
Sorry I'll go away and roll my dice quietly to myself.
If fantasy did not play a very large role in how we behave, the Lord would not have said that to look with lust is to commit adultery in one's heart. If witchcraft is a thing God hates, then we ought not seek it out as recreation. It is like a violent video game wherein the player shoots and kills people in a drippy mess of graphics. This desensitizes kids. It's not necessary, so why do it?
I also do strongly disagree with burning books unless an individual feels led of the Lord to do so. I remember when a pastor had us burn our LP records for his mere fancy, and some of those songs, though not Christian, had morals of peace and joy. It's all in how you look at things. To have something that comforts you torn away against your will is wrong. If you voluntarily give it up for Christ's sake, then you will have a reward. God loves a cheerful giver. More than that, sometimes it is wise to let a few weeds grow in our lives temporarily, because uprooting them at the wrong time can also uproot the healthy plants. We should look to God for direction on what parts of our lives are weeds, and what parts should be modified, and when, and how.
I've just tried to explain to some folks in church that an article on HP that they've been given is a *spoof*. (I think it's the one from the Onion, with quotes from kids who're now satanists because of reading HP, that kind of thing).
The Onion seems to have pulled it from it's archives - any suggestions of where else I can send them to back my comments up??
Thanks in advance,
caty
There are some really good (and well-balanced) articles which explain that the whole Onion article is a hoax. The best one I've seen is at http://www.baptiststandard.com/2001/11_19/pages/potter_hoax.html
Hope this is helpful!
I'm a massive Harry Potter fan, and particularly like the strong moral element in the stories.
However I do have some worries that kids seem to be encouraged by the marketing spin-offs of Sabrina & Buffy, HP etc, to get into "spell-casting" to realise their wishes.
I've heard children talking about using spells as if it's quite natural - does anyone else have views on this?
PS this is my first posting on the boards so... greetings to you all!
I haven't noticed her with a wand either....
(Although in fact, there's a massive online version of Hogwarts at which you can take lessons and exams in divination, numerology, charms, etc, etc, etc. It's a spectacularly good site although I'm still not sure I'm 100% comfortable with some of the teaching - OK maybe that's just being over-anxious.)
There's a huge difference between "imaginary" magic (such as that in Harry Potter and Sabrina), and actual occultism, and I think the anti-HP hysteria arises from a confusion between the two. For me, there's more of a potential issue with programmes like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, where people are actively engaging with "spirits" and carrying out occult/Wicca practices. The issue here is that although a lot of the other elements are imaginary, there is a counterpart in real life, which many Christians would argue is dangerous. This isn't meant to sound like a hardline condemnation, cos I really like Buffy, but... hmmmm. 
I agree totally with the view that imaginary magic is not a problem. When I was little, I was completely enraptured by the Worst Witch stories, and obsessed with the idea of obtaining "a Worst Witch outfit and a broomstick that really flies". (I'm still waiting for them to arrive.) Funnily enough, this didn't lead me straight into Satanism, either.
Fib
Although it has got me thinking too... I decided that if I just accepted it as I don't have a problem with it, I was just as unthinking...
In fact that's kind of why I'm here. We're having a discussion group on Harry Potter at church in a couple of weeks and I wondered if anyone could point me in the direction of decent, balanced material on it. I've seen a few things. I'd also be interested to know where some of the more hysterical 'anti' material has sprung from. This was all kicked off in our church by someone reading out a piece of the net which I now strongly suspect was derived from the Onion piece....
Anyway, all suggestions gratefully received. (Well maybe not all ...
Cheers
Inside the instructions were of the (summarised) order
"to get what you want"
"do what you're told by your parents."
"to curse away acne"
then followed some simple, practical advice.
Mostly it was good advice, with some goodies thrown in.
love
Angel
There's also a SU study guide called Harry Potter by someone called DAMARIS but I don't know what that's like.
You might find these useful for your talk
Tubbs
Don't know what they say about harry potter (cos frankly, old harry's never interested me!!!)
Here's a link to some of their harry potter stuff though.
Storytelling is the oldest profession in the world. Since there was language, there have been stories. A characteristic feature of most fantasy stories is the fight between good and evil. Tolkien, Star Wars, Harry Potter - all good guys vs bad guys. As various people mentioned earlier, moral ambiguity makes it more interesting, cos you get to decide whether you support the characters' decisions or not.
Now, important point: When Harry gets to Howarts, the first thing that occurs is house assignment. Harry makes a choice to go into a 'good' house, instead of the 'bad' house.
So why is it a bad thing for kids to learn to make reasoned choices?
PS: First post so Hello everyone!!
In answer to the request for reasoned stuff on HP, I've seen a book called 'The Spirituality of Potterworld' in several bookshops and that's very positive about it. Interestingly, CARE (Christian Action on Research & Education - a solidly evangelical group) had a piece on HP in their latest newsletter. Their advice came down to 'don't have a kneejerk reaction, read them and see what you think' and they recommended both the books mentioned.
Now that Philip Pullman has started getting noticed by the newspapers, perhaps the heat will be off Harry for a bit. Hope so.
Is it a legitimate criticism of an authoritarian hierarchical relgion, or is it actually a denial of the existence of God, implying that you cannot have a God who is not authoritarian and hierarchical?
quote:
Is it a legitimate criticism of an authoritarian hierarchical relgion, or is it actually a denial of the existence of God, implying that you cannot have a God who is not authoritarian and hierarchical?
I read them and although I thought it was fairly scathing about organised religion, some of the comments weren't that bad and some of which I even agreed with
But then I've only read the first two
I was well chuffed it won the Whitbread - until I realised that now Dark Materials is famous the backlash starts here
Tubbs
I can think of two reasons. The first is that magic appeals to us because it could, if it were real, give us what we want at no cost to ourselves. It thus encourages selfish thoughts, and allows us to indulge a desire to be better than other people. It would be great to be able to levitate/make blue sparks fly from our hands/make beautiful creations with no effort, but not quite so much fun if everybody could do it.
I`ve flicked through a number of what purport to be spell books in bookshops, and they all contain spells to do things like get you the boyfriend/girlfriend you want, get you more money, make people be friendly towards you.. you get the idea. I haven`t seen a single spell for world peace, or even a spell to make a friend happy. Magic, as used in practise rather than fantasy, seems to encourage the worst of our selfishnesses.
The second is that, if magic does not in fact exist, anyone claiming to use it is in fact a fraud. Someone who takes money off people by pretending to do something they can`t. They play on the desires and needs of other people who want or need something normally impossible, but if you pay this person enough then, who knows? The modern equivalent would probably be a televangelist ("Touch the screen, and you`ll be healed.. if you send in your donation, God will bless you"). "Suffer not a televangelist to live." Now there`s a thought.
quote:
Originally posted by Oriel:
given that magic doesn`t actually exist
Magic in real life is a lot lower key, and, as Karl has already pointed out, is nothing like any of its portrayals in popular fantasy fiction.
quote:
Originally posted by Oriel:
"Suffer not a televangelist to live." Now there`s a thought.
I second that!!! Those who shout the loudest are heard first, and boy do those guys shout. If that was your first encounter with Christianity, wouldn't you run a mile? Televangelists are way scary people - with a profit-driven agenda. I believe in subtlety.
PS: about my user-name: I serve real ale to men with beards. I'm pro-active about being politicaaly incorrect, so when someone applied the label 'wench' I refused to be offended and took it as my own. But I'm way too tall to be Barbera Windsor!!!
Lived for a while in a house with digital TV. not that exciting as we only got the free chanels. Including about five 'Christian Channels.
Christian TV? Oh my. Big hair and big teeth. I still have nightmares.
But I did not watch it without a sense of irony of course. Nothing like reading Harry Potter while some TV evangelist burbles away in the corner.
And is it just me or did all the programmes advertise the books/videos/tapes of the people involved?
Toria
So, on the grounds of this, are we supposed to read only stuff which was written by Christians who were consciously seeking the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit? In which case I'm going to be pruning my bookshelf fairly drastically, and much which has enthused and challenged me in my faith is for the chop.
Or, is God bigger than we're giving Him credit for here?
quote:
Originally posted by Karl:
[QB]I would have thought that if the book-burning brigade wanted a bee in their bonnets Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials Trilogy would be a better target.QB]
And yes...in today's Sunday Mail (not bought by me)'Why this man is the most dangerous children's author writing today'. A diatribe against Pullman as a sort of anti - CS Lewis setting out to corrupt our children and turn them into promiscuous liberal atheists. Also contains the intriguing suggestion that the Narnia books can somehow save those unhappy tots who have had the misfortune to be brought up by (shudder) liberal parents!
I love both Narnia and Dark Materials - is that allowed? They're both good stories with lots of truth and beauty and sense in them; they're not, unlike that article, polemics.
I've read the Amber Spyglass books and didn't get possessed (as far as I can tell:confused , but I did find the anti-religion stuff, particularly in the last book, very heavy handed and distracting from the story.
One peeve here: It would be nice if people didn't use the "witch" passage from the Old Testament as if the Hebrew word referred to 21st-century Wiccans, role-players and HP fans. It's not so difficult to get a decent Bible commentary and find out what they were really talking about. (Clue: not witches.)
It strikes me that people who complain vs. HP are arguing doctrine but never looking at real people. Kids understand harmless fantasy, and they are quite familiar with the phrase "Let's pretend." Didn't you ever play, didn't you ever make believe? Did it harm you?
quote:
From the website referenced above:
God's thoughts are born in the innermost being, intuited, known without being thought through. They are sensed before they are thought, spontaneous, gentle and full of light, higher than our thoughts
So we`re not allowed to think?
I remember hearing a sermon along these lines once. Anything you worked out by thinking something through was wrong -- true inspiration from the Holy Spirit could only come as a wave of supernatural knowledge totally separate from your own thoughts. Apparently, God didn`t give us our brains so we could use them.
*sigh*
quote:
Originally posted by Tina:
[QB]
So, on the grounds of this, are we supposed to read only stuff which was written by Christians who were consciously seeking the direct inspiration of the Holy Spirit? In which case I'm going to be pruning my bookshelf fairly drastically, and much which has enthused and challenged me in my faith is for the chop.
QB]
This is something that does really irritate me in this type of debate - when people quote bible verses at you but then do not apply them consistently through their lives. I'm not saying that anyone who quotes a bible verse must then be perfect in every way, but sometimes I find that cetain things are said (a good example being 'whatever is true, whatever is good.... think on these things' - paraphrase.. don't have my bible on me!) as if they unanswerable because they are scripture. And I guess they are unsnswerable because of that, but when they are used by someone just to make a point who then does not apply them in other areas of their life, I lose a bit of respect for that person! (I'm not referring to anyone here - I don't know enough about you!! )
I was speaking to a guy at my church a couple of days ago who has a very different opinion on Harry Potter than I do, but I could understand exactly why he felt the way he did, and he also wasn't happy about letting his kids watch violent stuff, and wouldn't be happy about them playing pretend violence. I have a lot of respect for him, even if I don't agree with him, because he is very consistent in his attitude. I'd have a problem with someone who quoted the verse mentioned above as a reason they wouldn't let their kids read Harry Potter, but were happy for them to play with toy guns etc.
I've just read back through this and I don't know how much sense i'm making! But I know what I mean!
I have noticed that I've found a much stronger reaction against Harry Potter from people who were into the occult etc before becoming Christians. Should this make us sit up and listen a bit more?
quote:
Originally posted by Gherkin:
One mention was made of someone burning Lord of the Rings; that did surprise me. Generally I've found that people who dislike HP because he "promotes witchcraft" are fine with Tolkein, despite the fact that one of the main positive characters is a real, live spell-casting wizard. So is magic evil or not? I think it's because J.R.R. was pals with C.S. Lewis so he can't be bad.
Sorry to post twice - can't work out how to get 2 quotes in one post!
The Tolkein Double Standard (as I shall have to call it from now on) has suprised me a lot. Had (yet another) conversation with someone slating HP who then went on to tell me how much they'd enjoyed Lord of the Rings. Too stunned to say anything I'm afraid, and I don't think they noticed the expression on my face. Is it because Tolkein is 'literature'?
quote:
Originally posted by Birdie:
Should this make us sit up and listen a bit more?
No. Simply because they are not objective. They have been involved in occult practises, and can often be 'over-sensitive' and 'see' things that are not really there.
There have been witches and wizards, changlings, elves, fairies, talking animals, casting spellings, in all of our folk tales. These don't lead us into occult practise, and neither does reading a HP book.
bb
- There are those who read the books before all the anti-Potter hype or just haven't taken that much notice of it, found the books a cracking good read and enjoyed them. And usually expect everyone else to feel the same way.
- And those who have been told that the books are 'evil' (or whatever) by someone they trust or whose opinion they regard as worth listening to. This may have been passed on by email, word of mouth, sermon etc. and so they either boycott the books/film or read them with the aim of finding everything that is bad about them. And often expect everyone else to do the same.
Those who fall into the 'anti' camp, if they can be persuaded to read the books, will be able to condemn them on the tiniest point (always backed up with some verse or other from the Bible) and no matter what you can say about the good points of the book if just won't make any difference. Once the idea that they make whichcraft attractive is there that is all the reader will see. I'm sure there's a psychological reason for this.
If you want to come out in favour of the books you could talk about the way the books offer valuable lessons on the problems of friendships, families, growing up, dealing with authority, loyaly, the past, fear etc etc. Harry and his friends do break rules and don't always show respect to those in authority, but they face the consequences of those actions. Harry doesn't always make the 'right' choices, but who does? Unfortunately the simple fact the books are based in fantasy (with magic) means that they can be dismissed with one well chosen verse.
It's probably fairly obvious which side I'm on (I'm looking forward to the next book!). I read them before the 'anti' hype really got going - I was stuck at home with the most appaling cold and found they were a good read. Not long after that I was trying to find out if you get the books in Sweedish (for a friend) when I came across sites calling for the books to be banned. Unfortunately most of the sites I found misrepresented and misquoted the books. In more than one case I was sure they'd read a different book altogether! Where is there any encourgemnt to use Ouiji boards!?!?! When the emails started going around, I found I was having to defend myself for reading them! Then the Onion email planted the belief that JK Rowling is herself a Satanist in so many peoples heads that it's now almost impossible to have a reasoned talk with anyone who's seen it. And you try tellig them that the whole article was a joke! I've heard and read people talking about JK Rowling as planning to do all sorts of things with the last three books to make the occult even more attractive. And this is quoted as fact! This is one Urban Myth that is totally out of control. I find myself feeling very sorry for JK Rowling when I hear and see what is being said about her - almost all unsubstantiated and passed about as fact!
The whole thing paints Christians in a really bad light, fighting amongst ourselves over children books! It all makes me want to scream. I am very fed up with the whole thing now.
Peot-of-gold, I respect how you feel about this, but it is very easy to represent almost anything as 'bad' by the use of strategic quotes. As I said, a lot of the sites and emails I've seen have misquoted the books. I'm not trying to change your mind. If you don't want to read them, don't. If you don't like or appreciate fantasy, you probably won't enjoy them anyway. Just be aware that there some very flimsy and misleading stuff being written about them. And I've been sent a fair bit of it myself.
Toria
PS didn't mean to go on for so long, but It all just sort of came out. If I'm ever asked for my opinion of HP again I think I shall go and gibber in a corner.
I looked at other reviews on the same site, and found the same thing. Why do these people seem to think that spirituality is only about the occult and "taking the Lord`s name in vain" rather than the way you treat life, death, love, friendship, and all the rest of it?
Surely if “the Church” wanted to take children’s literature to task there are better targets …
The ones that peddle the idea you’re nothing if your not thin or pretty; don’t have a boy or girl friend or enough money to buy whatever you want etc are probably doing far more harm than anything JKR has written. But most adults don’t have a clue about children’s books – unless of course it’s been the subject of a “ban this <insert rude adjective here> aimed at our kids” campaign.
But the personal attacks on JKR make me feel more uncomfortable than anything else … But when you ask people where they heard this stuff or why they’re repeating it they just look at you like you’re a nutter. It seems that all those bits in the Bible about not repeating idle gossip don’t apply if someone’s a) successful or b) a suspected occultist.
Thanks
Toria
quote:
Originally posted by Poet_of_Gold:
I have read articles on them, I have read excerpts from them, and I have had friends who love them dearly tell me what happens in the story. I have seen excerpts of the movie. Now, given these bits and pieces, you may say what you like, but I know enough of it to tell that my spirit is repulsed by the flavor of these books.
Now this strikes me as interesting, and I will try and explain why.
Many, many years there were some Sunday papers lying around a family sitting room. They made mention of the then current obscenity trial involving 'Lady Chatterley's Lover'. Our parents said: You MUST NOT read THAT story (but imposed no interdict on reading the other improving material contained in the average Sunday tabloid). They had received the impression, you see, that here was a book so powerfully corrupting that even reading about it would - well, they probably couldn't have said exactly, but clearly it would be something extremely bad.
It looks from here as if Harry Potter has for Poet of Gold the same frisson of evil, the same horror as of some unscopable wickedness.
But how exactly? Others - most others - find only an average-to-interesting children's book. (Or, in the case of DH Lawrence, Great Literature or rather boring books, depending).
The answer, it appears, is that WE invest these stories with their power. WE attribute to this or that author or book an ability to shock or terrify (or bring down the fabric of society as we know it).
This seems to be the true magic - not spells or potions, but the transformative power of imagination.
quote:
And yes...in today's Sunday Mail (not bought by me)'Why this man is the most dangerous children's author writing today'. A diatribe against Pullman as a sort of anti - CS Lewis setting out to corrupt our children and turn them into promiscuous liberal atheists. Also contains the intriguing suggestion that the Narnia books can somehow save those unhappy tots who have had the misfortune to be brought up by (shudder) liberal parents!
Good old Peter Hitchen
Actually this article bothered me but it was only until last night I worked out why …
The main difference between the books is that Lewis’ agenda is, pretty much, hidden. You can read the books and not have a clue about the religious symbolism as it is part of the story. Pullman’s books (well certainly the third which I am ploughing through at the moment) contains a lot of tub-thumping which detracts from the story. Mainly because it’s so blooming annoying and really slows things down!
Children will encounter the books at a completely different age so are likely to read both anyway. Lewis’ books are filed in the ordinary fiction section of most libraries and bookshops while Pullman’s are filed in the older readers section. Ordinary fiction is probably aimed at children between 8 – 11 while Pullman’s books are aimed at 12’s and overs.
And if Christian parents really don’t want their kids to read fiction by that nasty Mr Pullman, there is an alternative. The Wind on Fire trilogy by William Nicholson (who wrote Shadowlands) which is fab.
Possibly a more interesting discussion would be why some people invest certain things / issues with such power ...
Tubbs
Hmm... this discussion seems to be straying beyond the UM borders. Originally, I launched the thread with refs to more religious leaders claiming that HP was leading kids into the occult. The most recent discussion about witches and biblical references and so on are much more Purgatorial. So.. would folks like to continue the discussion in that vein? If so, What I'll do is is disconnect that part of this thread and replant it in Purgatory. Thoughts?
Tinfoil hat OFF
As to people who have been involved with the occult, of course they see danger in more places than other people. As an ex-smoker I think I have more trouble going into places where people are smoking than my friends who never smoked, just because I get more tempted than they do.
quote:
Originally posted by Gherkin:
As to people who have been involved with the occult, of course they see danger in more places than other people. As an ex-smoker I think I have more trouble going into places where people are smoking than my friends who never smoked, just because I get more tempted than they do.
Yep, makes sense! Just wondered what other people thought of that.
The thing that makes me really sad about this whole HP thing is that it seems to me that Christians who don't want anything to do with the books are missing a golden opportunity to engage with our culture. If we don't have the imagination or creativity to use, for example, the fact of Harry's mother dying to save him, and this then protecting him later in life (book 1 - Harry's encounter with Quirrel/Voldemort), as a way of helping to explain to our kids what Jesus did for them, I'm a bit worried. (I'm not, of course, saying that this is intended as an analogy for Christ's sacrifice for us. Doesn't stop me using it though.)
The devil can and will use anything to get at us and our kids. He'll use Harry Potter if we let him, and if we therefore have nothing to do with the books etc we might as well just hand them over to the devil for him to do with as he likes. Our question should be 'how do we use this as a tool for God'?
I had another point and it's disppeared from my brain now... that's always happenening to me....
cheers all (our cell group discussion on it is tonight - I may be back tomorrow in exasperated mode....)
I have read the first 2 books and have also read a lot of the information and discussion going round Christian circles about them, and I am more and more convinced that they are not suitable books. I do believe they are dangerous. I am not saying they should be banned completely and I certainly disagree with book burning, BUT I do acknowledge the influence they CAN and DO have on our children. We need to read them WITH our children and discuss openly with them about why we disagree with the values and practises portrayed.
I work with kids in my Church on a weekly basis and have been involved in Christian kids work for the past 6/7 years. I have also worked in secular situations as well as specifically Christian ones. I agree that we can sometimes underestimate the discernment kids can have, but that doesn't mean: all kids are like that: CHILDREN ARE INFLUENCED BY FICTION whether you like to admit it or not.
I am not going to get into a huge discussion about Potter cos it's all been said many many times before: but I just want to challenge you to think about who you would like your own children to have as role-models. Children do look to both reality and fiction for their role-models and for many kids: Potter is it, for others it's Sabrina, for others still it's a footballer, pop-star or TV presenter. Do these people (real or otherwise) really portray the values we want our children to grow up accepting?
We can discuss these things til we are blue in the face (and discussing and analysing is good and proper) but that is worth nothing unless we ourselves set about providing a GOOD role-model with CHRISTIAN values for our kids to follow.
I was at a children's ministry conference last week and the speaker at one of the seminars made a very good point, with which I finish: IT IS CULTURE WHICH SHAPES OUR CHILDREN'S LIVES, ATTITUDES AND VALUES. CULTURE BECOME DANGEROUS AND DETRIMENTAL WHEN THINGS WHICH ARE DANGERUS AND DETRIMENTAL BECOME 'NORMAL'. (Therefore it is not the publishing of Potter books which is dangerous: it is the normalisation and desensitisation of these things which affects our children.)
Much better than footballers, who are frequently, it seems, no more than grown-up thugs.
exactly what do you object to, ruthie?
And, as someone mentioned earlier, there is arguably much more danger in books which imply that getting a boyfriend/girlfriend/makeover is the ultimate way to find fulfilment, than in books which really challenge children with the reality of good and evil.
We probably need to guard against suggesting that these books are promoting specifically Christian values, because they aren't based in a Christian framework. However, Ruthie - is your argument that we should only allow children to read specifically Christian books, so that this is their only influence in learning to deal with the world?
Fib
Sieg
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
I think you've really hit the nail on the head in terms of how most of us want the Potter books handled--read them with your children and discuss them. Parents really should be doing that with everything there kids are being exposed to--watching television with them, checking (and spot-listening) to the music they listen to, and reading the books they read.
Absolutely. The discussion I've mentioned took place last night, and there was a lot of discussion about how some of the Harry Potter sites on the web have links to wicca and pagan sites, and that it is quite easy to start off in the fiction, and end up in the fact. I can understand that some will therefore feel more comfortable keeping their kids away from Harry Potter altogether, but surely you could also say - don't let your child have unsupervised access to the internet. (Given some of the stuff that's out there, I'd say that anyway)
This is the point I forgot in my last post - above! It is harder to commit to spending time with your children checking on them on the internet, reading their books with them, listening to their music, than to simply ban them. And I think that sometimes the knee-jerk 'ban this!' reactions are to do with an unwillingness to confront issues as much as concern for kids.
An example of this in discussion yesterday: I was asking about consistency in our attitudes and about how sometimes people have a problem with Harry Potter type stuff, but no problem with their kids watching violence and then playing at soldiers or fighting or what-have-you. Apparently, playing with guns is different 'because you can't stop them'.
I will now dismount from my high horse and come back humbled when I have kids of my own.
Two of us we anaylsing the plot of the film at homegroup a few weeks ago. So what do we have:
A special child who evil could not kill shortly after birth.
The unconditional love of Harry's parents.
Ron's self sacrfice so that Harry could go on to defeat evil.
The fact that Harry only got the stone because he didn't want to use it for his own ends.
Altogether a very moral story with a heavy christian influence?
I believe the more we sanatise our childrens upbringing the more likely they are to investigate these things (in a more serious way) later in life. Whereas if we represent witchcraft etc as fiction/fantasy they will be far more skeptical about the whole thing from the start (although we need to be careful not to trivialise the occult).
I await responses with interest...
Steve
quote:
Originally posted by SteveS:
Whereas if we represent witchcraft etc as fiction/fantasy they will be far more skeptical about the whole thing from the start (although we need to be careful not to trivialise the occult).
To clarify I think 'skeptical' in sense of appreciating that there are dangers and being questioning about what is a threat and what isn't.
To answer your questions (even though we are not in purgatory).
1) If it can't be explained by the laws of nature I accept it as supernatural (isn't that the definition of the word?)
2) If it brings glory to God then it is good, otherwise not (although there is probably some grey here).
3) With God's help the best we can.
Steve
quote:
Originally posted by SteveS:
To clarify I think 'skeptical' in sense of appreciating that there are dangers and being questioning about what is a threat and what isn't.
I misunderstood you and thought you meant a completely different kind of skepticism...
I am not saying children should be sheltered to the point that they have no street smarts, no sea legs, no guts. I am, however, saying that our children need not be steeped in occultic nonsense. If one is to err, why not err on the side of safety instead of taking that chance?
I find it rather worrying that Poet of Gold has only posted 4 times on the Ship and only about Harry Potter. And this from someone who has not actually read one of the books. Reading extracts, or hearing other's synopsis, or people's articles will not give a correct impression of the books as they really are.
If your spirit is so troubled by the books that you are unable to read them, then may I suggest that your best course of action would be to remove yourself from them completely.
It seems that it is developing into an itch that needs to be scratched. Stop seeing snippets of the movie, stop reading snatches from the books, and stop reading articles and reviews. If it really is evil then flee from it. Do not polute yourself.
bb
quote:
I am, however, saying that our children need not be steeped in occultic nonsense. If one is to err, why not err on the side of safety instead of taking that chance
Hmmm... 'safety'....
Now who do you think has done more harm to children over the past century... occultists or the Christian church?
quote:
Originally posted by Cusanus:
Hmmm... 'safety'....
Now who do you think has done more harm to children over the past century... occultists or the Christian church?
Tinfoil hat FIRMLY ON
We are not going to open that particular discussion on this board. It is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand and is way beyond the bounds of this forum.
Tinfoil hat OFF
edited to correct spelling
[ 11 February 2002: Message edited by: Siegfried ]
quote:
If your spirit is so troubled by the books that you are unable to read them, then may I suggest that your best course of action would be to remove yourself from them completely.It seems that it is developing into an itch that needs to be scratched. Stop seeing snippets of the movie, stop reading snatches from the books, and stop reading articles and reviews. If it really is evil then flee from it. Do not polute yourself.
I would echo that ... CS Lewis said that either people would end up dimissing the devil completely or end up being way, way, way too interested in what he was getting up to. If HP bothers you that much - then stop reading about it, posting about it etc. If you want a Biblical justification then try - "If your right hand causes you to sin, then cut it off". Have a look around the rest of the site and avoid this thread.
I've no problem with people disliking HP and not wishing to read it themselves. I do have a problem with people denouncing JK Rowling as a Satanist etc and insisting that, because they don't like it, no one else should either.
HP is essentially a soft target - I'm more worried about the books that tell kids that they're nothing if they're not rich / thin / wearing the right clothes / have a boy or girl friend / good at <whatever>. But for some strange reason we keep very quiet about those. [Don't get me started about Barbie .... ]
Tubbs
Does it occur to any of the self-righteous incinerators that there is a reason why more of her than, say, the productions of the 'Christian' presses are read? And it is not anything to do with the subtle wiles of Satan, but a lot to do with a longing for an other, wilder and richer dimension beyond the mundane?
They are not the greatest literature in the world, but demonising - or knocking - them is to me a way of ignoring the most important part of our being.
UCF (Unusually Cross Firenze)
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Since when is it JK Rowling's fault that she writes popular books?Does it occur to any of the self-righteous incinerators that there is a reason why more of her than, say, the productions of the 'Christian' presses are read? And it is not anything to do with the subtle wiles of Satan, but a lot to do with a longing for an other, wilder and richer dimension beyond the mundane?
They are not the greatest literature in the world, but demonising - or knocking - them is to me a way of ignoring the most important part of our being.
UCF (Unusually Cross Firenze)
Oh, well, you know, even administrators can live under bridges and try to scare poor billy goats.
Thank you for your marvellous post. It is true that the most magnificent things are the smallest things, those least noticed and often hardest to do.
I do not hate anyone who reads this series. I merely desire them to exercise caution. The enemy mixes a little truth with every lie, and we must not think ourselves immune from his traps, but must rather pray and ask for God's wisdom and protection.
quote:
Originally posted by Poet_of_Gold:
The enemy mixes a little truth with every lie, and we must not think ourselves immune from his traps, but must rather pray and ask for God's wisdom and protection.[/QB]
Absolutely.
Surely this applies to all books (and indeed all life). OK, it would be a problem if our defence of the HP books led us to neglect a Christian response to the issues involved. However, I think debates like this are evidence that people are engaging as Christians with the issues in Harry Potter. It'd be more useful (as some organisations are already doing) to extend this across our whole entertainment culture.
Look. HP is a harmless children's book. End of story. It doesn't matter a toss compared with real issues - poverty, aids, injustice, fair trade, but it's got those who are prone to paranoid spirituality with their heads right up their backsides.
How many children have died of starvation since we started debating these books? 30,000 a day isn't it? That's where your Satan is rejoicing, not on kids' bookshelves. About this, most Christians, as the great Tony Compolo said, don't give a shit. On the other hand, since this is the Ship and 'shit' is perfectly normal, I'll say that most Christians don't give a flying fuck.
But a story about a boy becoming a fairytale wizard - that's really important isn't it?
Get a reality check.
grrrr...... 
At the same time I'd say that I believe black magic, and spellcasting in general as I understand it, to be extremely dangerous, terribly immoral and forbidden, really destructive (at least to the people involved in it) and such. And what some people are (I believe mistakenly) worried about is that temptations to forbidden supernatural power will come to their children through these books. That is a serious matter indeed. The fact that other bad things are more visible, yet horribly ignored, by many (perhaps most) Christians in the West doesn't negate the other.
(It could be argued that technically, the root temptation in both of these situations (real or imagined) is not magic (also real or imagined) -- but the temptation to power, full stop. Are not greed, power-hungriness and the like largely responsible for those crises you mention, Karl? And if we are worried about messages we send children, isn't the way things go in this world -- suggesting to them that they need to grow up to make as much money as they can, and the cultural attitudes behind it -- the root of what would tempt someone to forbidden magic in the first place?)
I think many Christians who worry about the Potter books, or role-playing games, or any number of related "magic-oriented" things, are looking at it the wrong way. They really are treating the books as "forbidden knowledge," and the "information" in them, as the dangerous thing. The dangerous thing, I believe, is the desire to be in that kind of control, whether you use magic(k) or money, and I believe that is the root sin of forbidden traffic with supernatural entities -- going to the Devil is practically a side-effect. If they could do it (and some try to, whether with a more religious coating or not) via God they would.
And many do it via simple, basic, earthly things like money -- and millions starve as a result.
thats what annoys me so much about all of this. in reality, the harry potter books take such a moral stand for goodness, and justice, and right, its such a sick irony for them to be denounced as evil that i almost think that if satan is involved in this anywhere, he's at the root of the efforts to denounce them.
Tubbs
quote:
Originally posted by Slavophone:
Oh, well, you know, even administrators can live under bridges and try to scare poor billy goats.
And your point is?
quote:
Originally posted by Poet_of_Gold:
I do not hate anyone who reads this series. I merely desire them to exercise caution. The enemy mixes a little truth with every lie, and we must not think ourselves immune from his traps, but must rather pray and ask for God's wisdom and protection.
I would certainly hope you don't hate anyone for reading HP! I don't think that's even been mentioned. As for the rest of your comments, as the posters since you have pointed out, we should always be cautious. And, although I've refrained from stating my own opinion, I think it's paranoia pure and simple and a preoccupation with the occult that is leading many otherwise sensible Christians to overreact to HP. C'mon people. Let's worry about real evil. Priests molesting children. Ministers preaching intolerance. Homeless people dying on our streets while we are warm and well fed.
quote:
Originally posted by Karl:
It doesn't matter a toss compared with real issues - poverty, aids, injustice, fair trade, but it's got those who are prone to paranoid spirituality with their heads right up their backsides.
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
Let's worry about real evil. Priests molesting children. Ministers preaching intolerance. Homeless people dying on our streets while we are warm and well fed.
Yeah OK, on the one hand I couldn't agree more - all the paranoia about HP is way, way out of proportion.
But, I'm a bit suspicious of this line of argument. It reminds me of people who say "ah, but think what the people in Afghanistan are going through" when you just want to talk about your bad day at work.
I mean, it is perfectly valid to discuss the Harry Potter books and have an opinion about them, or to be concerned about them. That's what this thread is for, isn't it? Otherwise, we'd only have threads for discussing so-called "real issues".
It's just a question of not getting it out of all proportion. Since we're only discussing HP in this thread, I don't feel qualified to judge whether contributors are personally over-preoccupied with HP or whether they're just thoroughly involved in this discussion.
F
I am reminded of something C.S. Lewis wrote--I think it was in his autobiography. He discussed being afflicted with the terrible temptation to tip his hat to the moon while walking at night.
He referred to it as "vestigial paganism" or something to that effect. If I recall the passage correctly, he discussed how terrible a sin it would be for him to do so, because it would be an homage to or worship of an unworthy object.
So, to expand on Chastmastr's thesis, the danger lies not only in the lust for power, but also in the things we give power to. The things we allow to control us.
And it's the same thing, isn't it? The locus of satanic power is the willingness to obtain power through consorting with forces that will eventually overmaster and enslave us.
And I don't think we necessarily have to be talking about the occult here. Lord knows there are enough addictions and fascinations out there--without making Faustian bargains--to drag us into hell.
tomb
quote:
Originally posted by Siegfried:
And your point is?
That an administrator (i.e. Dyfrig) was behaving a little like a troll (see his post immediately above), by making an unfunny joke about J.K. Rowling's intentions in a forum likely to be frequented by people who like a certain thing (see Firenze's post) written by her. I'm not trying to bring up charges or anything, but can't I make my own unfunny jokes?
As for Harry Potter, my opinion is pretty well-summed up by the review by Mark Jacobs, professor of English as Wheaton College. Indeed, the attractive thing about the books, for a jaded old SF reader like myself, is their moral universe. It may be a little unambiguous and heavy-handed at times, but as is mentioned in the above review, none of the children, including Harry himself, are <i>inevitably</i> good. They all make mistakes, incorrect choices and, quite frankly, decisions which are immoral in their universe. Sometimes they get away without detection by adults, sometimes they don't, but they always have to deal with the consequences of their actions, good or bad.
I frankly don't see what all the fuss is about, really. While I believe in the supernatural, as a Christian I suppose that's obvious, the magic in the books bears so little resemblance to the occult that the whole idea makes me chuckle a bit. Even if it did, I'd be much more interested in the moral universe that the characters exist in if I were deciding whether to get my nieces a copy or not. Then again, I played AD&D so I guess I've already been desensitized to the snares of Satan in fantasy literature.
[UBB is your friend]
[ 15 February 2002: Message edited by: Erin ]
(and he's not an administrator... he may have designs on the thrones of lambeth and heaven, but he's not at that stage yet...)
quote:
Originally posted by Fibonacci's Number:
But, I'm a bit suspicious of this line of argument. It reminds me of people who say "ah, but think what the people in Afghanistan are going through" when you just want to talk about your bad day at work...I mean, it is perfectly valid to discuss the Harry Potter books and have an opinion about them, or to be concerned about them. That's what this thread is for, isn't it? Otherwise, we'd only have threads for discussing so-called "real issues".
I am not saying we shouldn't discuss it. It is worthy of discussion. I'm saying that the people who are terrified of the 'evil' in Harry Potter are ignoring the true evil in the world.
Sieg
Under everyone's user name on the left of a post is their status and member number. You are an Apprentice (i.e. still new), most people are a Shipmate, a handful have Administrator after their names. Dyfrig is not one of them.
Hosts (like Dyfrig, Siegfried, myself) have the word Host under their name only on the board which they are responsible for.
'frin
(The point is, Fibonacci's Number, that if you were claiming your bad day at work was an attack of Satanic evil, you'd deserve the comment.)
quote:
Originally posted by SteveTom:
(The point is, Fibonacci's Number, that if you were claiming your bad day at work was an attack of Satanic evil, you'd deserve the comment.)
Beautifully put
Like I said, it's a question of priorities. And to those who feel that this is part of a global witchcraft/occult movement, well, to them it is a priority. I disagree with them, but I would defend to the death their right to voice their anxieties. As Siegfried said, so long as it isn't to the neglect of "real evil".
.....Real evil, though...hmmm. I was interested to note that pretty much all the examples of "real evil" that Siegfried & Karl gave were "social evils" - poverty, injustice, fair trade, homelessness etc. Whereas those who worry about the occult, along with many conservative Christians, are equally if not more concerned with "personal evils". I know churches have focused on personal evil to the neglect of social evil for centuries. But there has to be a proper balance between the two. And of course they are interrelated.
The reason I objected to the "let's focus on real evil" argument was that it seemed to be implying that social evils are the "real" ones and personal evils, including experimenting with the occult, of little comparative importance.
Once again - I don't think for a moment that HP readers are dabbling in the occult. But for those who do think so, it's a serious issue and deserves to be treated as such.
Fib
quote:
But for
those who do think so, it's a serious issue and deserves to be treated as such.
serious question... why? at what point does silliness reach the point where we can simply say, this is just to crazy to take seriously? because frankly, i think this whole harry potter thing has reached that point. i can't take it seriously any more.
quote:
Originally posted by Dyfrig:
I'm afraid, Slavophone, that you will have to direct your comments to Mr Hugh Dennis (son of the bishop of St Edmundsbury, IIRC) c/o the British Broadcasting Corporation, from whom that joke was nicked.
The same Hugh Dennis who, this week, referred TWICE to the 'Book of RevelationS'...
And if I could reach out and touch a life so far away, I would. Just now all I can do is pray for them, which I do. And I do hope someone can help the African children who have sleeping sickness, and who have to face a treatment that often kills them and always causes them extreme pain, namely the injection of a caustic substance into their veins. (Deep sigh)
quote:
C'mon people. Let's worry about real evil. Priests molesting children. Ministers preaching intolerance. Homeless people dying on our streets while we are warm and well fed.
Errmmm... Siegfried, that was the point I was trying to make in the post you rebuked me for. I obviously let the chance to make a sweeping statement overcome me!
"or, worse, you get hamfisted morons like Frank Peretti or the two guys who wrote the Left Behind books who impose their own (well dodgy) doctrine on their fiction because they don't see fiction as symbolic narrative"
Whether you agree with their doctrines and philosophies of life or not, it doesn't warrant such an attack.
'Ham-fisted morons' was a bit strong, but I stand by the rest.
And he explained why he did so in said post.
And he stands by it.
quote:
Originally posted by Poet_of_Gold:
And if I could reach out and touch a life so far away, I would. Just now all I can do is pray for them, which I do.
Not true. You can always reach out and touch lives. Give to charity. Sponsor a child/old person. Volunteer for aid agencies. Sell all your possessions and move to Africa and set up a hospice.
I'm not being holier-than-thou saying we all must (that would be hypocritical). But we all must take responsibility for our actions and not hide behind the false idea that we can't help because it's so far away.
And it's never far away. In spiritual terms we are humanity, the redeemed Body of Christ, one unit. In physical terms, you can fly to the other side of the world in a day.
quote:
"or, worse, you get hamfisted morons like Frank Peretti or the two guys who wrote the Left Behind books who impose their own (well dodgy) doctrine on their fiction because they don't see fiction as symbolic narrative"
It was alot more polite than what I've said about them But since you asked ...
Neither are particularly good at writing.
Both are using fiction to push (fairly heavy-handedly) a particular interpretation of the Bible / doctrine / whatever
Many people have assumed that because they've read it in a book bought from a good Christian book-shop it must be true. [Adrian has been told not to speed because "the angels let go of you if you go over 70 miles an hour" ... The speaker learnt this from a Frank Peretti book]
Spiritual warfare / the Second Coming of our Lord isn't supposed to be a money spinner!
The Bible specifically commands us not to speculate about the timing or the form of the Second Coming. Let's face it, if the Lord isn't going to tell his Son, he's hardly likely to tell the writer of dodgy marriage books!!!
The LB books gave people in my family nightmares about Satan and his hordes - like really healthy stuff to dwell on. Not!
Many churches are now actively discouraging members - particularly those new to the faith - from reading them for the reasons given above.
Sorry to have completely de-railed the thread but I do feel quite strongly about this ...
I'd take JKR over either any day
Tubbs
There is a difference between lies and fiction, and quite frankly, Frank Peretti's books and the Left Behind books tend more towards lies. They dishonour God, and they dishonour our faith.
Potter is fiction, and no more than that, and as such is nothing to fear.
Kirsti, fanning a flame or two....
quote:
Originally posted by diorboy:
OK, so I decide to scan through most of the rest and find someone called Karl use the 'f' word. And nobody even mentioned it after that post.
Diorboy, that kind of language is quite acceptable on these boards.
If you want to have a discussion about the rights and wrongs of swearing in general on Purgatory, I'm sure you'll find takers.
But there's no point complaining about people not being taken for task for swearing here, because they're allowed to.
It's not about how to do spells or even whether they work!
Tubbs
I like the Harry Potter books (wish she'd get a move on and finish number 5) but at the same time I think there *are* things in them which people (not necessarily Christians, but anyone concerned with ethical behaviour) should be worried about. For example, Dumbledore's action in hiring Lupin (don't get me wrong, I think he's a great character) without informing the parents of his students about Lupin's, er, little problem. I think this is irresponsible (a real-world equivalent might be a head teacher knowingly hiring a paedophile to work in his/her school). I certainly wouldn't want to stop anyone reading the books because of this, but I'd want to talk about Lupin (staying with the same example) and why I thought Dumbledore was wrong to hire him to any child of mine who'd read the books. You don't pick this up in the book (except for a couple of comments that Lupin himself makes) because it seems to be an article of faith in the Potter universe that Dumbledore is always right.
But there are far better targets than Harry Potter in popular culture. Where are the howls of outrage over shows like 'The weakest link'? Now there's a programme which we ought to be concerned about, and it goes out early enough in the evening to be seen by children. Do we really want to send the message that 'It's all right to rip other people to shreds in public provided you never have anything to do with the occult'?
<dons asbestos underwear>
Jane R
Jane R
2) Jane - couldn't agree more about the Weakest Link. I remember vividly that when it first aired on daytime TV, the TV guide critics were saying "This is sheer nastiness - TV audiences aren't going to want to watch it." Now it's listed by the same critics as "compulsive viewing". Hmmmmm.....
3) Re: Frank Peretti & the LB books:
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
There is a difference between lies and fiction, and quite frankly, Frank Peretti's books and the Left Behind books tend more towards lies. They dishonour God, and they dishonour our faith.
Now I'm really confused. Are those books meant to be a representation of reality?
I've never read the LB books, but I've read the Frank Peretti ones.......... was that supposed to be gritty realism, then? I thought it was just more supernatural fiction, like Harry Potter etc, but with a fundamentalist rather than atheist/agnostic backdrop.
Was I supposed to take it all deadly seriously???
Fib
quote:
Originally posted by SteveTom:
Diorboy, that kind of language is quite acceptable on these boards.If you want to have a discussion about the rights and wrongs of swearing in general on Purgatory, I'm sure you'll find takers.
But there's no point complaining about people not being taken for task for swearing here, because they're allowed to.
And as the host of this board, I completely agree with SteveTom. (Being on the West Coast of the US, I'm running about 8 hours behind on posts.)
And, just as a suggestion, it's usually not good to post to a thread before reading the entire thing (specifically referring to your post about Wood's view of the author's of the "Left Behind" series). In many cases, the issues you raise may already have been addressed.
All that aside, welcome to Urban Myths. Heard any good ones lately?
Siegfried
UM Host
Inanna--Thanks for that link about the course which uses HP!
Wood/Tubbs/et al: The discussion of the Left Behind books would be good as a separate thread--either in Purgatory (discussing the books themselves and their theology) or here, as part of the whole wider 'Christian Conspiracy Theory' of the End Times and the various Mark of the Beast rumours and myths that spring up all the time.
Everyone else-Keep it up! I'm rather happy with this thread on the whole.
Siegfried
UM Host
I would liken it more closely to a hidden illness like epilepsy, which can be dangerous to kids if precautions aren't taken - i.e. making sure the fits are under control, and so on.
does anyone know of a good UM site specific to HP?
Love
Angel
Yes, epilepsy is quite a good analogy, except that it isn't catching. I chose paedophilia as my example partly to illustrate the level of outrage I might feel as a parent, and partly because being molested by someone you trust would (very probably almost certainly) affect you for the rest of your life.
I suspect that JKR intended us to draw an analogy with someone who has HIV/AIDS, but I don't think the two cases are really comparable because when Lupin is dangerous to others, he has no control over his actions (just like an epileptic, as you rightly say).
This actually touches on one of the aspects of the books which I really like - the way (certain selected) prejudices are challenged. The only thing which does concern me is that sometimes there may be a good reason (in the Potterverse at least) for the prejudice. In Book 4, Hermione says something along the lines of 'well, all this anti-giant feeling is just prejudice, like the feeling against werewolves.' Well, no - don't know about giants, but werewolves sound pretty dangerous to me. Perhaps you wouldn't go so far as to shun them completely, but you'd check what time of the month it was before agreeing to have dinner with them.
I don't think anyone has yet mentioned the very strong stand against horoscopes and fortune-telling in the HP books. Given that fortune-telling and seeking to know the future is specifically condemned in the Bible, I am surprised that noone has used this as an example of something in Harry Potter which agrees with Christian teaching.
Jane R
Jane R
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
I don't think anyone has yet mentioned the very strong stand against horoscopes and fortune-telling in the HP books. Given that fortune-telling and seeking to know the future is specifically condemned in the Bible, I am surprised that noone has used this as an example of something in Harry Potter which agrees with Christian teaching.
OK, the books dismiss fortune-telling, but I don't think that means they agree with Christian teaching on the subject. The books' stand against Divination is just on the grounds that it's an imprecise science that doesn't generally work. This is really the same appeal to rationalism which is often used to attack religious faith in the unprovable.
Re: Lupin - Remus Lupin is my favourite character in the books, because he's a likeable and deeply moral man who embodies many conscientious dilemmas. He's torn between his need for friendship/freedom and his promises to Dumbledore; racked with guilt about his own culpability in not disclosing information to the Headmaster; and anxious about the threat he poses to his own students. It's certainly debatable whether he should have been employed as a teacher - but then, how should he be safely fitted into society? A challenging topic for discussion with children (and adults).
quote:
. In Book 4, Hermione says something along the lines of 'well, all this anti-giant feeling is just prejudice, like the feeling against werewolves.' Well, no - don't know about giants, but werewolves sound pretty dangerous to me
OK, maybe I was overstating the case. But one of the things Hermione objects to about Divination is that it only seems to be used to foretell horrible things. I would go along with that - if I was always foretelling doom and death, I'd probably go mad (and I wouldn't have many friends...). Better not to know in advance, if you ask me; "Present dangers are less than horrible imaginings."
Something (else) which I find disturbing about the books is the magical world's attitude towards Muggles. Even the magic-users who are kindly disposed towards Muggles, like Mr Weasley, seem to think of them as amusing creatures who need to be protected but aren't quite human. The ones like the Malfoys treat Muggles like Untermenschen. And I find the casual attitude towards Muggles who witness inconvenient things chilling - well, just zap them with Memory Charms and make them forget. Does it cause brain damage? Well, they're only Muggles, they'll never notice the difference (noone ever actually says this, but they don't seem to be concerned by disorientated Muggles wandering about).
I wonder if there are any politicians in the world who would be able to resist the temptation to have a Thought Police if it really was possible to edit our memories every time we saw something inconvenient.
Oh dear - gone off the subject of witchcraft again... but honestly, I think that the magic in the Potter books is the wrong thing to get hot under the collar about. What the magic is used for (and why, and why it's not always a good thing) is a much more interesting topic of debate and can lead on to talking about why Christians shouldn't get involved in the occult in real life. But it's much more effort than just banning the books; you have to read them yourself and then go away and think about it and find time to discuss the books with your children.
I couldn't agree more about Lupin - he's one of my favourite characters too. I also find Snape interesting - he's (apparently) the only Slytherin who has ever chosen to fight for the good guys. He's also tortured by things which happened to him in his schooldays. None of the pupils outside Slytherin really likes him, because he can be a sarcastic b*** when he puts his mind to it. But against that, he is the only character so far (apart from Harry himself) who has shown himself willing to protect people he doesn't like. He's saved Harry's life several times, both directly (by his own actions) and indirectly (by teaching Harry the Disarming Charm). He is the only person who could silence Gilderoy Lockhart in Book 2, and for that alone he is worthy of respect.
Jane R
quote:
originally posted by Joan the Dwarf:Not true. You can always reach out and touch lives. Give to charity. Sponsor a child/old person. Volunteer for aid agencies. Sell all your possessions and move to Africa and set up a hospice.
Right now I dedicate 50+ hours a week to a ministry. I am overworked, underpaid, and quite often dog-tired. Moreover, I have multiple physical ailments and disabilities to overcome, including hypoglycemia, auditory dyslexia, a skin and joint disorder, and weekly migraines. By God's grace I am able to continue working. With God all things are possible.
In the future please think before you talk. I know you meant well, but I am sick of people judging me while not knowing the whole story.
[fixed UBB code]
[ 23 February 2002: Message edited by: Siegfried ]
quote:
Originally posted by Joan the Dwarf:And it's never far away. In spiritual terms we are humanity, the redeemed Body of Christ, one unit. In physical terms, you can fly to the other side of the world in a day.
And I do agree that the body of Christ is one, and that if our brothers and sisters are hurting in some way, so are we. Let us unite in prayer for those Christians who are right now in prison for the sake of the Word of God in nations such as China, Nepal, Sudan, etc.
[Fixed UBB code]
[ 23 February 2002: Message edited by: Siegfried ]
quote:
And I do agree that the body of Christ is one
And I WILL master this.
I also do apologize if I have been overly harsh. May God bless, help, save, strengthen, and keep all our brothers and sisters across the globe.
quote:
Originally posted by Poet_of_Gold:
In the future please think before you talk. I know you meant well, but I am sick of people judging me while not knowing the whole story.
Strangely enough, no one was judging you. You said that you could do nothing and Joan listed quite a few different ways that ordinary Christians can make a difference.
Nice to see that you have finally found out that other threads on these boards exist though.
bb
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Something (else) which I find disturbing about the books is the magical world's attitude towards Muggles.
I think part of the point of the books is the very separatist attitudes of a lot of the wizards to the muggles. Note in particular that this separatism is particularly in
evidence in Voldemort`s followers, and his anti-Muggle policy is stated to be the major factor in his initial widespread support when he first came to power. In other words, the elitism is indeed present to a great degree, but is being portrayed as a Bad Thing.
My take on it is that the wizards and the muggles first separated around the time of the witch-hunts, or before. Mainly because the muggles were scared of the wizards, who
could do a lot of things they couldn`t. But now, the muggles have caught up. Technology can now do a lot of things that could previously only be done by magic. The
wizards are scared of the muggles, and they don`t want anything to do with them. The progressives, exemplified by Dumbledore, want to change this, but the entire wizardly
culture is against them. Have you noticed how little the wizards (even the pro-muggle ones such as Arthur Weasley) know about the muggle world? This isn`t because they can`t
find out. Primarily, it`s because they don`t want to know, because they might find out something they don`t like.
My expectation is that as the series ends muggles and wizards will be forced to work together, and cultural barriers will just begin to start being overcome. There will be clashes, but there will also be hope for the future.
I'm thinking it's about time to close this thread down. Most of the recent posts have been more discussions of the book itself or issues not really relevant to the subject of the fears of various groups with respect to the Potter books. I'll give it a couple more days, but if it looks like this subject has played out, I'll go ahead and call it as done.
Btw--this is definitely the longest, most active thread we've had on UM since the new boards opened last May. Nicely done folks!
tinfoil hat OFF
Siegfried
UM Host
With regards to the Potter books, my views remain unchanged. I see them as potentially dangerous. But I also went to see Star Wars as a kid, and that was full of Eastern myths which if believed to their fullest could also mislead a child. And yet, at the right time and of my own free will I discarded its ideas. As well the TV series Bewitched and the The Black Stallion books, which, though often seen as a children's series, at the end contains references to ESP and devils.
quote:
Originally posted by Poet_of_Gold:
With regards to the Potter books, my views remain unchanged. I see them as potentially dangerous. But I also went to see Star Wars as a kid, and that was full of Eastern myths which if believed to their fullest could also mislead a child. And yet, at the right time and of my own free will I discarded its ideas. As well the TV series Bewitched and the The Black Stallion books, which, though often seen as a children's series, at the end contains references to ESP and devils.
host hat ON
Ok.. that's that. Under the Hellish Corollary to Godwin's Law (see the thread in Hell), this thread is closed. Thanks to all who posted intelligent and thoughtful responses.
host hat OFF
Siegfried
UM Host
Another book shall come out, when i do not know... and this thread shall be ready!
Tubbs
quote:
Originally posted by Mrs Tubbs:
Next book not due out until next yearTubbs
I can wait.
quote:
Rumours the latest Harry Potter book has been delayed till 2003 are wrong, according to the publisher's website.
Some reports over the last few days claimed Bloomsbury said the long awaited fifth book definitely wouldn't be out till 2003.But on Monday night the publishers dismissed those reports, again repeating the statement on their website saying:
"JK Rowling is happily writing Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix and we anticipate that we will be publishing later this year."
There's no definite release date - JK Rowling will simply announce when she's finished writing.
And Bloomsbury thinks that it's still likely to be this year, in 2002.
OTOH, if she is still writing it and they have no idea how close she is to finishing, yet they still expect to get it out by the end of the year, there is obviously going to be no editing process worth speaking of at all. So not only will it suffer like the fourth from being overblown and in need of a prune, it will also probably have straightforward errors in it that would be picked up by a good editor.
Lux
Tubbs
Much as I'm desperate to read book 5, I'm not holding my breath! There are rumours that the book will be out in late November. However, different rumours are coming out all the time.
Dresdner Kleinwort Wasserstein, the bank which is Bloomsbury's corporate broker, released a statement in March saying that book 5 would be released in 2003, in order to cash in as much as possible before then on the publicity of the second film (due for release in mid-November 2002). Their exact words were "Why publish a new book if you get free global advertising that will have a positive effect on your existing books? Why not wait until, say, March next year to release a new book and get all the benefit from that one as well?"
Why not? Because it's outrageous money-grubbing and disrespect for fans, that's why not! However DKW were obliged to retract their statement a few days later and say that the book would be coming out this year.
So to sum up - it's all still up in the air, and the rumours that JK Rowling has writer's block are as yet unconfirmed...
(sigh)
quote:
Originally posted by Fibonacci's Number:
So to sum up - it's all still up in the air
Harry's magic and Voldemort's magic come from the same source. Harry is only mildy evil compared to Voldemort's being horrendousely evil, therefore by this comparison Harry is seen as "good".
Sirius Black broke a guy's leg to get Harry away from Hogwarts so he could tell him his story. You'd think he could find a better way than to harm someone. These books are full of violence. They are gratifying and exciting, but sin is not healthy under any context, though for a season it may be pleasurable just as the candy you overeat on till you have a stomachache.
I believe these books give God a stomachache. He wants His people to be pure, to keep their minds free from sin.
If there were even a one percent chance these books were against the will of God, would you read them?
Doesn't the Bible say to love your enemies, and that even sinners love those who love them?
When Harry spares Pettigrew's life he is sorry later, rather than being rewarded for his mercy. Yet the kids are commonly rewarded for lying and stealing, when there should be stern consequences.
Ahem.
P of G ... While your criticisms of the H.P. books, characters etc are allowable, your opening two sentences could be considered as a personal attack on the author.
As such they fall under the Ship's 10C's prohibition against attacking the person rather than the issue.
They may also be libellous (?slanderous?) and thereby open the Ship to legal action. I shall take advice on this point and may remove the offending passages later.
Please note!
Host Mode <DEACTIVATE>
Added later - Please see my post further down this thread
Edited by TonyK to link to subsequent 'Host'
post
[ 28 May 2002: Message edited by: TonyK ]
a) JKR a personal friend of yours then?!
b) If you don't like the books and feel that you should not read them, then that's fine. That's your choice. But surely it's better not to dwell on them. For someone who hasn't read them and feels they are unGodly, you know alot about them and post about them quite alot. Without wanting to be rude, maybe it's time to start dealing with your own relationship with these books prayfully rather than worrying about other peoples' ...
Tubbs
quote:
Originally posted by Poet_of_Gold:
J.K. Rowling is a hack.
No. Whatever else you may say about her, you have to admit that she is a good writer. This has nothing to do with the morals she may or may not espouse.
quote:
Her morals are ambiguous.
Her characters lie, steal, break rules, make fun of overweight people, cheat, put self above others, seek revenge, practice divination, and swear. The children's best friend is a drunk. The kids who are good are painted as sticks-in-the-mud.
Her characters are human. Her characters are realistic. The only sinless person there has ever been is Jesus. To portray the characters in these books as sinless would be false; people would recognise it as such and would not have any respect for the books or characters.
quote:
Harry's magic and Voldemort's magic come from the same source. Harry is only mildy evil compared to Voldemort's being horrendousely evil, therefore by this comparison Harry is seen as "good".
Someone can be "good" without being perfect. Harry`s methods may sometimes leave something to be desired, but he is trying to do the right thing. (And remember that a lot of the time Harry is fighting against a system that favours the bad guys.)
quote:
Sirius Black broke a guy's leg to get Harry away from Hogwarts so he could tell him his story. You'd think he could find a better way than to harm someone. These books are full of violence.
Not that much, really. Violence only really occurs at the major climaxes of the novels, and is generally instigated by the baddies. (And remember that in the world of Hogwarts, a broken leg is a lot less serious than in real life, and can be mended very quickly.)
quote:
{QB]
They are gratifying and exciting, but sin is not healthy under any context, though for a season it may be pleasurable just as the candy you overeat on till you have a stomachache.I believe these books give God a stomachache. He wants His people to be pure, to keep their minds free from sin.
If there were even a one percent chance these books were against the will of God, would you read them?
[/QB]
That would mean that there was a 99% chance that they were in the will of God, so yes, I would. Otherwise I might be missing out on something that God wanted me to know!
quote:
[/QB]
Doesn't the Bible say to love your enemies, and that even sinners love those who love them?When Harry spares Pettigrew's life he is sorry later, rather than being rewarded for his mercy. Yet the kids are commonly rewarded for lying and stealing, when there should be stern consequences.[/QB]
Although Dumbledore does hint that Harry might change his mind later and be glad he spared him. Besides, in the real world people don`t always get rewarded for doing the right thing, or for doing the wrong thing. The martyrs were not being punished for any sin, but for holding on to what was right. Dictators in this world are rewarded for oppression and cheating by obtaining more power. Not the way it should be, I agree, but the way it is. Harry has to learn, and I think will learn, that the reward for doing the right thing isn`t always an external one, but is sometimes (in this life, anyway) the mere knowledge that you did the right thing, even when everyone and everything around you is punishing you for it.
quote:
Originally posted by Mrs Tubbs:
For someone who hasn't read them and feels they are unGodly, you know alot about them and post about them quite alot.
Now hang on there. Earlier on in this thread, people got slammed for disliking Harry Potter without having read the books.
While I here exert my God-given right to disagree with both his and your opinions, I have to admit that Poet of Gold has read at least one of the HP books (more than I've managed. Life's just too short), and as such has an informed opinion, albeit one that doesn't tally with several other peoples' here.
Now. Here's the rub. Poet of Gold has the same amount of knowledge as you. He has a different opinion. I suspect that now your personal cases have been stated, there is little point in continuing a Pythonesque 'yes it is'/'no it isn't' discussion, since those reading the thread, having both sides of an equally informed argument, can be relied upon to make their minds up, if they haven't been made up already.
quote:
Her characters lie, steal, break rules, make fun of overweight people, cheat, put self above others, seek revenge, practice divination, and swear. The children's best friend is a drunk. The kids who are good are painted as sticks-in-the-mud.
Harry's magic and Voldemort's magic come from the same source. Harry is only mildy evil compared to Voldemort's being horrendousely evil, therefore by this comparison Harry is seen as "good".Sirius Black broke a guy's leg to get Harry away from Hogwarts so he could tell him his story. You'd think he could find a better way than to harm someone. These books are full of violence. They are gratifying and exciting, but sin is not healthy under any context, though for a season it may be pleasurable just as the candy you overeat on till you have a stomachache.
I can think of another book where one of the heros lies a lot especially saying that his wife is his sister. Another hero commits adulery and then has the husband murdered.
Someone kills his daughter as a result of a religious vow. And there is a lot of violence much of it genocidal. Question is should that book be banned?
quote:
While I here exert my God-given right to disagree with both his and your opinions, I have to admit that Poet of Gold has read at least one of the HP books (more than I've managed. Life's just too short), and as such has an informed opinion, albeit one that doesn't tally with several other peoples' here.Now. Here's the rub. Poet of Gold has the same amount of knowledge as you. He has a different opinion. I suspect that now your personal cases have been stated, there is little point in continuing a Pythonesque 'yes it is'/'no it isn't' discussion, since those reading the thread, having both sides of an equally informed argument, can be relied upon to make their minds up, if they haven't been made up already.
I seem to remember that in previous posts PofG said he hadn't read the books and had based his view of them from what he'd read about them from other sources. If that's an incorrect understanding, then I do apologise.
But, I do stand by my comments that if you something really bothers you, then dwelling on it isn't really very healthy ...
Tubbs
P of G,
I have discussed my earlier remarks with fellow hosts and an administrator.
It is felt that your opening comments probably do not open the Ship to legal action - so I unreservedly withdraw that point.
With regard to the 10C's violation concerning attacking the issue, not the person - I still feel that the comments violate the spirit of the Third Commandment.
Host Mode <DEACTIVATE>
In a much earlier post I had not at that time read the books. As of now that situation/status has changed. I wanted to see for myself.
I do not spend a lot of time thinking about them, but right now the movie is being advertised on TV, over the loudspeaker at the store, and most any other place I look. It fills me with grief to think children might be influenced to serve a deviant power instead of God.
I did not say that I believed there would be a 99% chance it would please God. If you mow your lawn tomorrow, will it please God? He lets you be free to mow it when you think it is right. It is of small importance when compared with bigger issues of the heart. What I said was, if there were a chance, even a chance this was displeasing to God, and that avoiding it did no harm, would you do it anyway? If avoiding lemons when you are allergic to them does you good, and if there is a 1% chance that there is lemon in that pie, do you take the risk and eat it anyway? This is what I mean by a 1% chance of displeasing God. Some things you know displease God, such as the things listed in the Bible's Ten Commandments:
Don't have any other gods.
Don't make idols.
Don't take God's name in vain.
Remember the Sabbath.
Honor your parents.
Don't kill.
Don't steal.
Don't commit adultery.
Don't falsely accuse someone.
Don't covet.
Our children need good role models, people who strive with all their might to keep these rules for their own benefit and for the benefit of humanity. Why waste time with witchcraft when there are many, many other sources to turn to for inspiration?
quote:I dont have a Bible commentary, and honestly cant think of what is actually meant. Prostitutes? Homosexuals? False prophets? Independent women? For some reason I am suspecting it has to do with sex, but information would be helpful...
One peeve here: It would be nice if people didn't use the "witch" passage from the Old Testament as if the Hebrew word referred to 21st-century Wiccans, role-players and HP fans. It's not so difficult to get a decent Bible commentary and find out what they were really talking about. (Clue: not witches.)
quote:[RANT ON]
Originally posted by Poet_of_Gold:
J.K. Rowling is a hack. Her morals are ambiguous. Her characters lie, steal, break rules, make fun of overweight people, cheat, put self above others, seek revenge, practice divination, and swear. The children's best friend is a drunk. The kids who are good are painted as sticks-in-the-mud.
Harry's magic and Voldemort's magic come from the same source. Harry is only mildy evil compared to Voldemort's being horrendousely evil, therefore by this comparison Harry is seen as "good".
Sirius Black broke a guy's leg to get Harry away from Hogwarts so he could tell him his story. You'd think he could find a better way than to harm someone. These books are full of violence. They are gratifying and exciting, but sin is not healthy under any context, though for a season it may be pleasurable just as the candy you overeat on till you have a stomachache.
I believe these books give God a stomachache. He wants His people to be pure, to keep their minds free from sin.
If there were even a one percent chance these books were against the will of God, would you read them?
Doesn't the Bible say to love your enemies, and that even sinners love those who love them?
When Harry spares Pettigrew's life he is sorry later, rather than being rewarded for his mercy. Yet the kids are commonly rewarded for lying and stealing, when there should be stern consequences.
![[Flaming]](graemlins/angryfire.gif)
Or, just to drag out this example and beat it some more, read 1 and 2 Kings, 1 and 2 Chronicles. Like a frickin' primeval soap opera, that is. A man kills his concubine, cuts up her body and sends the pieces 'round in what passed for the mail.
quote:They ride brooms.
Originally posted by Poet_of_Gold:
J.K. Rowling is a hack. Her morals are ambiguous. Her characters lie, steal, break rules, make fun of overweight people, cheat, put self above others, seek revenge, practice divination, and swear. The children's best friend is a drunk. The kids who are good are painted as sticks-in-the-mud.
quote:They ride brooms.
Harry's magic and Voldemort's magic come from the same source. Harry is only mildy evil compared to Voldemort's being horrendousely evil, therefore by this comparison Harry is seen as "good".
quote:Did I mention that they ride brooms?
Sirius Black broke a guy's leg to get Harry away from Hogwarts so he could tell him his story. You'd think he could find a better way than to harm someone. These books are full of violence. They are gratifying and exciting, but sin is not healthy under any context, though for a season it may be pleasurable just as the candy you overeat on till you have a stomachache.
quote:And, what's more, they ride brooms.
I believe these books give God a stomachache. He wants His people to be pure, to keep their minds free from sin.
If there were even a one percent chance these books were against the will of God, would you read them?
Doesn't the Bible say to love your enemies, and that even sinners love those who love them?
When Harry spares Pettigrew's life he is sorry later, rather than being rewarded for his mercy. Yet the kids are commonly rewarded for lying and stealing, when there should be stern consequences.
quote:Have you read the story of the blessing of Jacob and Esau?
Originally posted by Poet_of_Gold:
Harry Potter books teach kids that bad kids get glory...
quote:Thanks for the reply, Poet. I've noticed you've not rebutted on any of my observations on your argument. Does this mean that you agree with them?
Learning about it and having adventures within its beliefs and recognizing them as even temporarily true can tempt children to do much worse with their lives. Many have actually become witches based on the influence of these books.
quote:
Wouldn't it be better if a Christian series could be written that was so much loved and adored by millions of children? Books that glorified everything that God admires and everything that is good and worth emulating?
quote:True! So aren't you glad that Voldemort and Wormtongue are going to get their comeuppance somehow in this series? Ditto for the evil Malfoy and his family.
In the Bible those who sin are paid out for their sin, either in this life or the next.
quote:Hmm, somehow I think you and I must have read different Harry Potter books. In the HP *I* read, no kids are ever taught successfully that the end justifies the means, and evil kids like Draco Malfoy and his toadies Crabbe and Goyle get their comeuppance in the third and fourth books. Since Harry, Hermione and Weasely (can't recall that kid's first name) clearly are not evil, your argument falls apart here, indeed, as it does in many other places.
Harry Potter books teach kids that bad kids get glory, that demon spirits are welcome in their lives, and that as long as it comes out okay it doesn't matter how you got there. All false.
quote:The Harry Potter series is as much a guide to "modern day witchcraft (a.k.a. Wicca)" as Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance is a sacred Buddhist text.
Originally posted by Poet_of_Gold:
Practicing any false religion constitutes spiritual adultery against God. Be it Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Paganism, or modern day witchcraft (a.k.a. Wicca), it is still sin.
quote:Well, they do ride brooms.
Originally posted by kenwritez:
Secondly, did you deliberately mean to use sweeping generalizations
quote:Hmmm, can you justify mess of pottage?
Originally posted by Stoo.:
Have you read the story of the blessing of Jacob and Esau?
Don't seem to recall Jacob getting his just deserts for that one.
quote:Umm.. OK, so divination class involved crystal balls, but the implication was that most of that class was made up vague nonsense. Tarot cards and ouija boards? Unless Mr Chick has managed to read future books and discover something new....
Through the Harry Potter books! We wanted his powers so we called on spirit guides. Then they came into us. They led us into stuff we found in the Harry Potter books - tarot cards, ouija boards, crystal balls...
quote:Either future books or the Onion article, with a few Chickian embellishments.
Originally posted by Inanna:
Umm.. OK, so divination class involved crystal balls, but the implication was that most of that class was made up vague nonsense. Tarot cards and ouija boards? Unless Mr Chick has managed to read future books and discover something new....
quote:Not completely untypical with other Jack T Chick tracts I have read. It seems to make a long point about the dangers of witchcraft (fair enough in theory), but then suddenly makes the colossal jump to link it all with Harry Potter. In a couple of choice frames he suddenly makes this spurious link "I learnt it all from Harry Potter".
Originally posted by Inanna:
[QB]Seeing as this thread is active again...
Following a link from a link in a purgatory thread, I found this:
warning! Jack T Chick tract ahead! warning!
QB]
quote:Would this be the rather off-balance and politically mired "Focus on the Family", so beloved by the squamous and rugose one, supplying the "fair" and "honest" opinion?
Originally posted by Poet_of_Gold:
For a fair and honest opinion of such try here.
quote:Nope, that's the one. Oddly enough I refer to this particular website regularly. Not to decide what I will see, mind you. I've found that aside from the rather skewed conclusions at the end, their breakdown of movie content is consistently accurate. It is helpful in deciding what to let my young children (or my conservative mother-in-law) see. I also use it to figure out what all of the fuss is about wrt movies like HP (which I thought was great fun).
Originally posted by Ham'n'Eggs:
Would this be the rather off-balance and politically mired "Focus on the Family", so beloved by the squamous and rugose one, supplying the "fair" and "honest" opinion?
Or is there another organisation using the same name?
quote:If I have a beam in my own eye, does this mean I can't point out the same in yours?
Originally posted by Poet_of_Gold:
Those who talk about bias should examine their own eyes for beams before pointing out motes.
quote:Some people would like to. Be afraid, be very afraid.
Originally posted by Elizabeth of Tenth Street:
Well, if they're going to ban Harry Potter they had better ban Macbeth, A Midsummer Night's Dream, Spenser's The Faerie Queene, and most childrens' fairy tales. All of the above contain witches, spirits, disobedience, immorality and other unsavory elements.
