quote:

---

Originally posted by David:
I mean this in all sincerity. I love the USA.

It's Americans that I can't stand.

---

Americans are the USA.

Moo
 

---

Posted by Atticus (# 2212) on :
 
Interestingly enough John Steinbeck said the opposite in Travels with Charley. Something about Europe hating america and loving americans... Perhaps that is the real difference between Americans and others(don't you just love that good old american chauvanism. Americans and others. who else is there?). Americans love america and hate americans, the "others" love americans and hate america. I frankly think it's aobut time somebody got bombed for those views. and that person should be me. It's a shame i'm at work.
 

---

Posted by Wood (# 7) on :
 
Um, I think that was the point.

More than once, we've had a statement from a European shipmate along the lines of "I loathe America and everything it stands for, but I don't mind Americans."

Then the person in question gets confused when the Americns here go apes**t.

Whether you agree with what David says about why he loves the US (which might be ironic. You often can't tell with ol' Dave, to be honest . I'll tell you this: if a dedication to the responsibility of the state to the individual and of the individual to society is "collectivist dogma", call me a dogmatist) - ultimately you can't separate the nation from the people.
 

---

Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 
At least we weren't started as a penal colony...
(ducking and running....)
 

---

Posted by Ultraspike (# 268) on :
 
That's okay, we say the same thing about ya'll.
 

---

Posted by Professor Yaffle (# 525) on :
 
I do not dislike Americans. I sometimes disagree with US foreign policy but do not regard it as uniquely wicked. I can think of occasions (the war in Bosnia, Suez) where the US has been right and Britain has been wrong.

Why do I feel like I've just admitted to holding a perverse minority opinion?
 

---

Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 
To the tune of "God Bless America"

Let's bash America
Land that I loathe
We will bash her
And trash her
And act surprised
When despised
For our posts

From Australia
Or from Canada
Or from England
Let us say:
We hate America
We're just that way
But we're not jealous of
The U.S.A.

Okay once more with real feeling now....

Reader ALexis
 

---

Posted by The Coot (# 220) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by duchess:
At least we weren't started as a penal colony...
(ducking and running....)

---

Erm. I think you'll find that some parts of America were British penal colonies... and after the War of Independence that's why they were sent to us.

Anyway, I was coming to this thread to post a rude answer about how the frig I'm sick to death of threads slagging off America and isn't it time they all got moved to dead horses? Then I saw it was the redoubtable David that posted and he's sure to be engineering something clever that, poor obtuse poppet I am, haven't picked up.

Can we move the motherfucker to dead horses anyway? (Sorry Pyx_e mate )

I wish I was healthy and lived in America. I'd be making heaps of money.
 

---

Posted by Olorin (# 2010) on :
 
True (ish). america is probably the best country to be rich in. And the worst (in the west) to be poor in.
Money first!
 

---

Posted by Hull Hound (# 2140) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Coot:
I'm sick to death of threads slagging off America and isn't it time they all got moved to dead horses?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Coot:
Why don't we, you know, discuss American inerrantist homos?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Professor Yaffle:
One thread on the subject is mildly diverting as it provides the spectacle of Erin, ably assisted by Scot and Duchess bashing various whining Trots.

Three is overkill.

---

3 is overkill? You are smoking crack.

There are more than 3. We are just the ones who have the most spirit at the moment. The spirit of 76 (echo-echo-echo)
 

---

Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Coot:
Why don't we, you know, discuss American inerrantist homos?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by duchess:
You are homophobic?

---

Are you homophilic?

Alexis
 

---

Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 
Ok, I'm lost. I admit it.
 

---

Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 
Darn. Spirit of 76 thread got shut down. Let's recreate it here.

In these parts, "The Spirit of 76" refers to Unocal Gasoline.

Reader ALexis
 

---

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
As has been noted, we already have two threads going on America and Americans - if this one doesn't develop some very unique characteristics fairly soon, it will be closed.
 

---

Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 
MT, I actually watched the movie "Spirit of 76" with David Cassidy & Leif Garrett the other day, so the phrase stuck in my mind (funny movie btw).

Well, I got to say my peace before it was closed. I will just repeat myself whenever the next attack comes along.
 

---

Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 
Some eunuch characteristics? Like no balls, you mean?

All right, guys, let's see some real COWARDICE out there!

Alexis
(gadfly extraordinnaire)
 

---

Posted by Lifeman (# 579) on :
 
SO We don't have any Elvis in us Duchess?

You bet you ass we don't.

Elvis was a serial womaniser who dumped a woman once she'd got pregnant, he did'nt write his own music and effectively killed himself eating too many burgers (cf. my earlier thread about fat Americans).

What we do have is the spirit of Lennon and McCartney, Elton John, Pink Floyd, the Rolling Stones, e
 

---

Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 
Lennon and McCartney WORSHIPPED Elvis. And fathered a few out-of-wedlocks themselves. Learn your history before you accost us with this nonsense.

Alexis
 

---

Posted by Lifeman (# 579) on :
 
SO We don't have any Elvis in us Duchess?

You bet you ass we don't.

Elvis was a serial womaniser who would dump a woman once she'd got pregnant, he did'nt write his own music and effectively killed himself eating too many burgers (cf. my earlier thread about fat Americans).

What we do have is the spirit of Lennon and McCartney, Elton John, Pink Floyd, the Rolling Stones, the Who, Led Zeppelin, Yes, Ozzie Osborne, Rod Stewart. What an excellent nationwe are when it comes to music!!!!!!!!

Oh, and of course the Sex pistols.
 

---

Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lifeman:
Oh, and of course the Sex pistols.

---

Now THERE is something to be proud of.

Alexis
 

---

Posted by Ultraspike (# 268) on :
 
Oooooh, Ozzie, my hero.
 

---

Posted by Lifeman (# 579) on :
 
he's not best known for his music but don't forget that most excellent of Englishmen, B
 

---

Posted by Irvin D Yalom (# 2833) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Professor Yaffle:
the spectacle of Erin, ably assisted by Scot and Duchess bashing various whining Trots.

---

Sounds like you feel the need to objectify and in a sense demonise those with whom you disagree, for some reason.

"Everything in the garden's lovely," said Eve to Adam. "Fancy an apple?"

Irv.
 

---

Posted by Lifeman (# 579) on :
 
that's 'B' as in Benny Hill.

And of course Bernard Manning. To those of you in America who hav'nt heard of him, he's a sort of English Bob Hope only a bit younger and slightly ruder.
 

---

Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lifeman:
What an excellent nation we are when it comes to music!!!!!!!!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by David:
I love the USA.
It's Americans that I can't stand.

---

I take almost exactly the opposite view.

quote:

---

Originally posted by lifeman:
And of course Bernard Manning. To those of you in America who hav'nt heard of him, he's a sort of English Bob Hope only a bit younger and slightly ruder.

---

quote:

---

3 is overkill? You are smoking crack.

There are more than 3. We are just the ones who have the most spirit at the moment. The spirit of 76 (echo-echo-echo)

---

quote:

---

Sounds like you feel the need to objectify and in a sense demonise those with whom you disagree, for some reason.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Qlib:
far, far more obnoxious than anything the USA has ever managed to produce and pass off as entertainment on an unsuspecting world.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Professor Yaffle:
But this is Hell. So indulge me in my occasional Daily Mail moments.

---

quote:

---

You are, of course, all aware that David started this thread in order to begin a fight?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Coot:
Erm. I think you'll find that some parts of America were British penal colonies... and after the War of Independence that's why they were sent to us.

---

I don't think so.

The only colony I know of which took people from English prisons was Georgia. The original settlers there were from debtor's prisons.

Moo
 

---

Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 
And the moon rose over an open field. --Paul Simon
 

---

Posted by David (# 3) on :
 
I've had a rethink on this, and decided that it doesn't quite work.

Let's try it the other way around and see if it's any better.

[Ahem]

I love Americans.

I love how Americans lead the world in technology. I love how Americans live in a free, open society, and are more concerned with the rights of individuals than collectivist dogma.

I love how Americans are generous to a fault. I love how Americans can be entertained by stuff that bears no relationship to any sort of objective reality, but don't care. I love how Americans want the rest of the world to be like them, because they believe that it's better, even though this leads to charges of egotism and self-interest.

I mean this in all sincerity. I love Americans.

It's the USA that I can't stand.

[ 09 July 2002, 23:28: Message edited by: David ]
 

---

Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 
Did somebody say something?
 

---

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
A Simpson's Episode

It's the end of WWI and America decides to give a gift of one billion dollars to Great Britain, France and Germany.

Figuring that "since he's our richest citizen he must be our most trustworthy" Mr. Burns is charged with delivering the money to the representatives of the three countries. Naturally he steals it.

When the money doesn't show up they decide not to make a fuss but to "act snotty to Americans forever and ever."

That episode explained a lot for me.
 

---

Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :
 
Trip-trap, trip-trap went the billygoats over the bridge. And from under the bridge came a voice...
 

---

Posted by Stoo (# 254) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
When the money doesn't show up they decide not to make a fuss but to "act snotty to Americans forever and ever."

---

The word is "snooty".


 

---

Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
Well, I was just quoting the TV show and I'm pretty sure they said "snotty". They are too different words you know. Snooty implies a snob factor, while snotty is just sort of snide, kind of like that "under the bridge" remark.

I'm a big Simpsons fan and I just meant to introduce a note of levity. Sorry if the xenophobes of the board took offence at the bald faced nerve of a relatively new person just jumping in and saying something.
 

---

Posted by Willyburger (# 658) on :
 

quote:

---

Americans want the rest of the world to be like them, because they believe that it's better....

---

We only believe it because it's true.
 

---

Posted by Hull Hound (# 2140) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mousethief:
There were posts about the religious history of the American nation? I must have missed those. All I have seen is slagging/whinging and defensive counter-attacks.

Can you point out exactly which posts you are looking at, HH?

Alexis

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by duchess:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Professor Yaffle:
One thread on the subject is mildly diverting as it provides the spectacle of Erin, ably assisted by Scot and Duchess bashing various whining Trots.

Three is overkill.

---

3 is overkill? You are smoking crack.

There are more than 3. We are just the ones who have the most spirit at the moment. The spirit of 76 (echo-echo-echo)

---

Whatever the market will tolerate

 

---

Posted by Nunc Dimittis (# 848) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by duchess:
At least we weren't started as a penal colony...
(ducking and running....)

---

Yeah, you would, wouldn't you duchess? If it's not that all liberals are hellbound because they are not biblical inerrantists*, it's that Aussies are somehow inferior or not entitled to opinions because we were a penal colony - a loooong time ago.

Like, hello! You have some serious waking up to do, woman. We have moved on from being a penal colony... I wonder that you are seemingly unable to move on from where you are.

*I can't believe you think the only liberal view of the Bible is that it's a bunch of fairy tales. Sounds like your mindset is still tied to your father... What a gross mischaracterisation and misunderstanding. Have you even read any liberal theology? Or any catholic theology for that matter. But then, as the Bible is the only thing sufficient, and your intellect is sufficient to interpret it, duchess, reading other theological perspectives is irrelevant... News for you: it's time to grow up and loose the strings that tie you to Daddy or anyone else. Explore the world of ideas. Read... And be open to thinking about things.

Why do people prefer to walk through the world with blinkers on?
 

---

Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 
Nunc,

Wow! Much bigger reaction from Aussies over penal colony remark than Brits over Tea Party remark.

duchess takes notes...

Somebody didn't get her vegemite this morning.


Pssst...if you re-read my posts...you'd see my dad is an errantist . He is also a big liberal like the majority of my family. He does not take the bible literally, like moi, the sole family inerrantist of this generations of [insert duchess's family surname here].

Psssst again...I have studied read up on the RCC enough to know why they think Peter was the first pope. "Upon this Rock, I build my church" and so forth...like the asking saints to pray for you, rather than pray to (as even some Catholics think).

Believe it or not, you can still see the world through bibically coloured glasses.



[UBB code and an irritating spelling mistake corrected I'm English so I spell colour with a U]

[ 10 July 2002, 08:27: Message edited by: Nightlamp ]
 

---

Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hull Hound:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mousethief:
There were posts about the religious history of the American nation? I must have missed those. All I have seen is slagging/whinging and defensive counter-attacks.

Can you point out exactly which posts you are looking at, HH?

Alexis

---

Mousethief can you point out where I said this?

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Coot:
I'm sick to death of threads slagging off America and isn't it time they all got moved to dead horses?

---

You're only sensitive to what you don't want to hear.

America is a largely untapped source of comment on the Ship. people actually like talking about it because it is relevant. It has religious themes all through its history and culture and it has real power. The subject is no Dead Horse.

---

Pleasure to be of service.

Reader Alexis

[tidied UBB code up a little people quoting quotes from each other in Hell ]

[ 10 July 2002, 08:41: Message edited by: Nightlamp ]
 

---

Posted by Hull Hound (# 2140) on :
 
Mousethief, I said "It has religious themes all through its history and culture and it has real power." Doesn't mean there are posts about it

I'd like to think that all my thoughts and posts automatically generate comment but even I ..

Mousethief, I think you are out to misquote
 

---

Posted by ChristinaMarie (# 1013) on :
 
Here's my theory:

The English and Germans are from common stock.

Both of these countries have a superiority complex.

Most Americans are descended from either German or English stock.

I think therefore, that the American superiority complex is a genetic trait. Trouble is, the effect is doubled!

This is true: In my promiscuous days, I once dated an American guy. He would only use American condoms, he did not trust British ones.

Christina
 

---

Posted by Nunc Dimittis (# 848) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by duchess:
Nunc,

Wow! Much bigger reaction from Aussies over penal colony remark than Brits over Tea Party remark.

duchess takes notes...

Somebody didn't get her vegemite this morning.

---

quote:

---

Pssst...if you re-read my posts...you'd see my dad is an errantist . He is also a big liberal like the majority of my family. He does not take the bible literally, like moi, the sole family inerrantist of this generations of [insert duchess's family surname here].

---

quote:

---

Psssst again...I have studied read up on the RCC enough to know why they think Peter was the first pope. "Upon this Rock, I build my church" and so forth...like the asking saints to pray for you, rather than pray to (as even some Catholics think).

---

quote:

---

Believe it or not, you can still see the world through bibically coloured glasses.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nunc Dimittis:
Well, congratulations to you. Not everyone has the necessity to wear those particular glasses, clear glasses, or indeed any glasses. I guess it depends on what you need to see, doesn't it...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
Well, I was just quoting the TV show and I'm pretty sure they said "snotty"...
Sorry if the xenophobes of the board took offence at the bald faced nerve of a relatively new person just jumping in and saying something.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scot:
Canada, however, will have to collectively stand before God and answer for Tom Green.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Scot:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nunc Dimittis:
Well, congratulations to you. Not everyone has the necessity to wear those particular glasses, clear glasses, or indeed any glasses. I guess it depends on what you need to see, doesn't it...

---

Nunc, that was completely uncalled for. I have to wear glasses and damned thick ones at that. The last thing I need is you or anyone else rubbing in the fact that you don't need to wear any at all. I really don't appreciate you trying to make me out as some sort of victim by pointing out how you think you are better than me. I think you should apologize immediately to all of the myopic people you so carelessly attacked.

scot

---

Scot, I don't know whether to laugh or to shout you down; whether you are showing the true inanity of literalism, or genuinely think I am attacking bespectacled persons (of which I am most definitely one)...

In fact the more I look at your post the funnier it is...

I am sorry your lenses are so thick. But you have to realise that the "victim" mentality in this case is an assumed one. You have the power to choose not to be a victim. And, of course those who don't wear glasses are better than you! How could you assume otherwise? Myopic people... hmmm Sounds like a variation on the pigmy idea - where do the Myopic people fit in, and what jungle do they live in?
 

---

Posted by Wood (# 7) on :
 
Um, I think Scot was taking the piss.

Wasn't he?
 

---

Posted by Professor Yaffle (# 525) on :
 
Originally posted by Sharkshooter:

quote:

---

Don't blame him on all of us. There are only 3 parties responsible for him (leave the other 33 million of us out of it): Mr. & Mrs. Green for (you know), and Tom for being what he is.

---

Don't try and wiggle out of it. What about Celine Dion? Or Bryan Adams?

OTOH you did give us Robertson Davies and Margaret Attwood, so you're completely beyond redemption.


 

---

Posted by Professor Yaffle (# 525) on :
 
Aargh. Complete gibberish.

What I meant to say was "OTOH you did give us Margaret Attwood and Robertson Davies so you're NOT completely beyond redemption".

I can't believe I just suggested two of my favourite authors are the literary equivalent of Bryan Adams and Celine Dion.
 

---

Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
Canada also <pause - meant to be dramatic but is just silly> gave us William <another pause of the same kind> Shatner.

I have liked Canada very much when I've visited, but some Canadians ... sheesh!

Ruth
Trekkie
 

---

Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nunc Dimittis:

---

quote:

---

Sounds like you enjoy doing this to wind people up duchess... "Oooooh let's make a sardonic smart-ass remark about some other nation and see what the reaction is!!" Frankly I just find this tasteless and sick.

---

quote:

---

What has vegemite got to do with anything?

---

quote:

---

Well, congratulations to you. Not everyone has the necessity to wear those particular glasses, clear glasses, or indeed any glasses. I guess it depends on what you need to see, doesn't it...
And I for one do not appreciate being pressured to wear your glasses. Keep them to yourself please, along with your self righteous and arrogant attitude.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
Canada also <pause - meant to be dramatic but is just silly> gave us William <another pause of the same kind> Shatner.

I have liked Canada very much when I've visited, but some Canadians ... sheesh!

Ruth
Trekkie

---

William Shatner is one hot hunk of burning love, even nowadays. He may have made his other collegues miserable according to some stuff I have read but man does he have some heaping cups of charisma.
 

---

Posted by Wood (# 7) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by duchess:
William Shatner is one hot hunk of burning love, even nowadays. He may have made his other collegues miserable according to some stuff I have read but man does he have some heaping cups of charisma.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mousethief:
You mean like "All Creatures Great and Small"?

---

Oohh, yea, I read that when I was nine or ten. D'ya think the vet'll have to grease up an arm and reach up into the horse all the way to his shoulder?
 

---

Posted by Irvin D Yalom (# 2833) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by duchess:
vegemite

---

Vegemite rocks, except that in Britain it's called Marmite and we thought of it first.

Irv.

[ubb sorted out]

[ 10 July 2002, 19:59: Message edited by: Nightlamp ]
 

---

Posted by Clyde (# 752) on :
 
Alexis,
They also have some good Vets on the TV programme
'Animal Hospital' if you get stuck.
Regards
 

---

Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 
Wow, I did not know that!

I actually tasted vegemite when an Aussie in my highschool had us all try it. Memory stuck with me forever.

Ok, quiz game...somebody identify this lyric (song and band):

"Buying bread from a man in Brussels
He was six foot four and full of muscles
I said, "Do you speak-a my language?"
He just smiled and gave me a vegemite sandwich
And he said..."
 

---

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :
 
the song is Men at Work, Land Down Under. But surely pop quizzes are more Heavenly than Hellish??

oh, and I think you'll find vegemite and marmite are different things
 

---

Posted by sharkshooter (# 1589) on :
 
I think any word starting with "veg..." belongs in hell!
 

---

Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 
My bad...I just could not control the urge to do a quiz...and also to make sure that song got stuck in somebody's head besides mine.
 

---

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :
 
well, getting that song stuck in someones head is definitely Hellish
 

---

Posted by Rowen (# 1194) on :
 
that song is one of our modern musical icons... by insulting it thusly, thousands of Australians will rise up and throw vegemited and buttered toast at you, especially when you are wearing something nice and clean.
And I will be amongst them, so there!
 

---

Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 
This habit explains why Australians have long given up wearing nice, clean clothes.

Alexis
 

---

Posted by Scot (# 2095) on :
 
Here is a summary of my comments, since I was away all day:

• Nunc,
  
• Wood, yes I was. Apparently I still need to get my tongue sharpened. Maybe tomorrow.
  
• duchess, you are a cruel, cruel woman. It may take me weeks to get rid of that damn song.
  
• Rowen, do whatever you want as long as you don't chunder anywhere near me.

scot
 

---

Posted by Rowen (# 1194) on :
 
Scot, you need to take more seriously your Christian duty to minister to the sick, even sick Australians. Surely, when I do throw up (chunder) near you, you will visit me? wipe my fevered brow? give me words of encouragement and hope? bring me a lovely present? make me chicken soup?
No?
tsk, tsk, tsk........
 

---

Posted by Scot (# 2095) on :
 
That depends on whether it happens because you "come from a land down under, where beer does flow..."

I better run, I better take cover.

scot

(duchess, I'm gonna get you for this )
 

---

Posted by Esme Weatherwax (# 1176) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rowen:
by insulting it thusly, thousands of Australians will rise up and throw vegemited and buttered toast at you, especially when you are wearing something nice and clean...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by duchess:
I thought since you were Australian maybe you ate that for breakfast.

---

What's that? A generalisation? I wonder if anyone else can appreciate the irony that if an Australian had generalised about America they would be flamed and stoned and....hang on, I wasn't going to post on this thread.

Just remember this duchess next time someone makes a generalisation about America....
 

---

Posted by Scot (# 2095) on :
 
Wow, Mid's offended by a comment about breakfast foods. I used to think the English (and the Welsh) were really thin-skinned, but now I see that you Aussies have them beat hands down.

Does it come from living in an unpopular hemisphere? Would it help if I told you I am a huge Steve Irwin fan?

scot
 

---

Posted by Rowen (# 1194) on :
 
I am afriad not, as he is unpopular here. We blame his personality on the more foreign members of his family, and the adulation of the media overseas.
Certainly, when he was a teen he was normal, as I knew him then...
 

---

Posted by Scot (# 2095) on :
 
Just trying to reach out a hand of reconciliation, and I knew that Paul Hogan was probably not the way to go.

scot
 

---

Posted by The Mid (# 1559) on :
 
The point I was making was about generalisations. It seems that SOME Americans can generalise freely about whoever they want, but as soon as someone generalises about America, they come out with all guns blazing.

How about a bit of consistency people???

Incidentally, I like vegimite. It had nothing to do with the subject of the generalisation, just the geenralisation in particular.
 

---

Posted by Rowen (# 1194) on :
 
And, heck, I quite like Scot too... tho I like vegemite more..... Especially on a fresh bread roll......
 

---

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rowen:
And, heck, I quite like Scot too... tho I like vegemite more..... Especially on a fresh bread roll......

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hercule:
Most Americans generalize because that is as specific as they can get. Only the intellectuals--mainly on the left--make distinctions and nuancees and so forth. For this they are called less American or "un-American." So I think a conservative American intellectual would be one who writes books full of generalizations.

---

You are so smoking crack! <--crack smoker
 

---

Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 
the Mid and others...let me clarify something.

LOOK...you can make alll theeee generalizations you want about what I eat for breakfast...what music I listen to...etc...I don't give a flying rat's you know what. [I eat bagels with cream cheese most of the time by the way..sometimes wheat bagels with fat free chream cheese and sometimes some fruit like a banana)...You can even
say I look like I laid an egg in my picture I posted (which somebody did...How did you know?)

What I mind though is:
You reading some free-basing book of "America is bad-bad...they are blah-blah" and then come in here and tell us stuff you read from a crack-smoker who has no clue about things in our politics! When you can't even get our govt right...or how our laws work (hint: read up on electrol voting...read up on the Bill of Rights...read up on the 3 branches of govt). If you believe Bill Clinton walks on Water and George Bush sucks eggs...at least have the decency to read up a whole heck of a lot before you make up your minds. Ignorant opinions from outsiders about our politics really bite dead farm animals with bacteria...please at least read up on BOTH SIDES...don't be lazy...read up....PLUUUUEEEZE.

Thank you.

GOD BLESS GEOGRGE W. BUSH and AMERICA,
 

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Posted by Cusanus (# 692) on :
 

quote:

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GEOGRGE W BUSH

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quote:

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Originally posted by Hercule:
Most Americans generalize because that is as specific as they can get. Only the intellectuals--mainly on the left--make distinctions and nuancees and so forth. For this they are called less American or "un-American." So I think a conservative American intellectual would be one who writes books full of generalizations.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Scot:
Canada, however, will have to collectively stand before God and answer for Tom Green.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mousethief:
Isn't this thread dead yet?

Reader Alexis

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It's like Simon - a mutant undead zombie, that JUST WON'T DIE!!!!!!!

Viki
 

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Posted by Nunc Dimittis (# 848) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by duchess:
the Mid and others...let me clarify something.

LOOK...you can make alll theeee generalizations you want about what I eat for breakfast...what music I listen to...etc...I don't give a flying rat's you know what. [I eat bagels with cream cheese most of the time by the way..sometimes wheat bagels with fat free chream cheese and sometimes some fruit like a banana)...You can even
say I look like I laid an egg in my picture I posted (which somebody did...How did you know?)

What I mind though is:
You reading some free-basing book of "America is bad-bad...they are blah-blah" and then come in here and tell us stuff you read from a crack-smoker who has no clue about things in our politics! When you can't even get our govt right...or how our laws work (hint: read up on electrol voting...read up on the Bill of Rights...read up on the 3 branches of govt). If you believe Bill Clinton walks on Water and George Bush sucks eggs...at least have the decency to read up a whole heck of a lot before you make up your minds. Ignorant opinions from outsiders about our politics really bite dead farm animals with bacteria...please at least read up on BOTH SIDES...don't be lazy...read up....PLUUUUEEEZE.

Thank you.

GOD BLESS GEOGRGE W. BUSH and AMERICA,

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quote:

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Originally posted by Rowen:
Rook, psychologically speaking, when you hate others, it is actually something in yourself that is bothering you a heck of a lot..... Feel free to tell us what it is IN YOU that bugs you like this.... Not because we are nosy and curious, but for the purposes of prayer, naturally...

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quote:

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Originally posted by duchess:
Nunc, I will get out of my humor mode and extend an olive branch to you. It is not my intent to flame you back. I would like to have some peace.

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quote:

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I know this is hell and personal attacks are permissable and all that but I still request we make peace here. I honestly was trying to defuse the gun I saw fired at me, make the bullets you fired at me fall to the ground finally cause maybe you would finally laughed (it worked with mousethief before..I know he remembers).

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quote:

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I know others in here enjoy going at each others throats and all that...and I enjoy a taunt just like anyone else

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quote:

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And of course we all know that Baptists are on the Other Side of the ecclesial pale.

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quote:

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And of course we all know that Baptists are well and truly on the Other Side of the ecclesial fence.

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quote:

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but this is getting a bit over the top for me. It seems you are truly angry at me and making a habit of just ripping at me personally rather than post something in the spirit of fun or just attack the issue I present.

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quote:

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Ruth and I already made peade...I apologized to her and we have exchanged e-mails (regarding the whole inerrantist/errantist thing in Headship). We don't have to agree to have some peace.

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quote:

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Will you accept an olive branch of peace from me, yes or no? It does not mean you have to agree with me nor does it mean that you must like me or "my kind". It just means maybe you and I can reach some kind of understanding...I do not wish to incite honsetly any hurtful or angry feeings that seem to be coming from you to me and will stop responding to any posts from you if that is the only thing I can do to make some peace occur between me and you. I am still a newbie in here and will make my lame mistakes, just like anybody else.

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This is slightly condescending duchess. Do you understand why I was so upset? It really sounds from the tone of this paragraph (and indeed from the tone of most of your post) that you think this disagreement with me is an inconvenience and rather a bother. That to me doesn't sound like you understand why some of us, or I, might be upset by the way in which you have said certain things.

Unless we attempt to understand each other we are going to come into conflict again.

Actually, my best friend is a dyed in the wool Calvinist, and an inerrantist... So I do like some of "your kind"... And one of the things converstation on the Ship has taught me is tolerance, more than tolerance, respect and sometimes love for many of those of differing opinions which formerly I reviled. I hope that this will also be true for you.

Let me give you a bit of the background from which I am coming.

I am Anglo-Catholic, theologically, liturgically, spiritually. The process by which I became this has been a long one, though I am not going to recount the whole thing here.

Duchess, my Dad is a hyperCalvinist who used to be much more extreme than he is now. I grew up memorising the Westminster Shorter Catechism and able to engage in pigheaded theological debates as a ten year old... I wish we had had more of the gospel than the law, but anyway, I think my parents were doing their best.

In consequence, after I was converted (as an Anglican at the age of 18), it took years to overcome the tenseness and hackle-rising reaction whenever certain phrases were used. The "Law-Word of God" is one such phrase I still can't stand! And there are many like it. I have worked hard in the last year on overcoming this (having a Calvinist best friend who thinks you are on a shaky road helps), and have sorted through many of the issues I had with my Dad. We understand each other a lot better now, though our beliefs are at rightangles to each other in some things.

I mention this, because as I alluded to earlier, we both stand in intellectual/spiritual postitions which are in a way reactive against our fathers': yours is an errantist, mine is a Calvinist inerrantist; you are a ?Calvinist inerrantist, I am a catholic liberal (unsure as yet about the inerrancy thing, though I have heard it expounded as not incompatible with a liberal catholic view of Scripture). I really believe that those of us like you and me who do occupy such positions have to be doubly careful to understand other peoples' beliefs and be courteous and respectful of them.

You offer an olive branch. If you understand what I have said, I should hope I can accept and we can at least have peace...
 

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Posted by ThoughtCriminal (# 3030) on :
 
Can I just ask, why are people here so emotionally attached to their nationality? We are not of this world, let alone of such a petty, ephemeral creation of greedy, murderous and power-hungry men as a nation-state.

I consider myself to be of no nationality except of the Kingdom of God , and therefore do not feel insulted in the slightest when "the British" are described negatively.

Of course, in America (not only in America, I hasten to add) Christianity itself (or rather a distorted, vulgarised version of it) is tied up into hubristic Nationalism.

War mongering executioners like Bush and Blair declaring themselves "Christians"...
 

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Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 
Nunc,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

I did feel like you were picking on me personally rather than issues I put forth (the comments like "lack of integrity" and "we don't care what you have for breakfast"...and "don't push your views on me" (I paraphrased from memory but they are all in this thread). I never once put you down albeit I did have stabs at Austrailian breakfast's and the way Austrailia was formed.

I do see good natured taunts (ribbing) going back and forth on SoF all the time. I meant my posts in that manner, not to literally put any country down or group of people, even if it came off that way.

When you tell me I am "lacking in integrity" to me that is pretty cold. It seemed like you just wanted to keep putting me down and yes, there was no other way I could see it but as personal since you didn't preface it like "you Calvinists lack integrity since you all...blah lbah" or "you inerrantists all lack integrity since you all ..." I do consider myself an honest person, albeit fallen person and I felt like I was going to finally start flaming you back with "takes one to know one" type comments. That is not my intent though (to be in a flame war), so I bit my tongue and reframed.

I am sorry about my comment re: the Penal Colony. I did not mean in any shape or form to put down Austrailia. My church has planted a church there in Brisbane and someday I plan on going there to visit. I do not look down on Oz and did not mean any disrespect.

I have a very strange sense of humor and I will be the first to admit, it doesn't always make sense. I don't like the extreme vulgar/swearing I see in here (just kind of browse past it) but I am sure some do that past my posts too when I get out there on a limb as well.

I guess you ironically have a dad with similar views as me. My dad is a bit agnositic, as you guessed, but he gives sermons (!) at the church he goes to (they let people get up there and have a go at that sort of thing). I have even critqued his first sermon at that church. I do know your views are much more different from my dad(for one, you are a Catholic, I am assuming a RCC one, not Orthodox).

Like you and your dad, my dad and I had our run ins. He has accepting his 5 point Calvinist daughter since he is starting to understand I don't hate gays...don't condemn people for reading Harry Potter...etc. I think he finally realised I do not agree with the 700 Club on everything in Theology.

Anyway, RCC holds the bible to be true, but supplements it with church doctrine (that is my understanding). (RCC believes Jesus did actually rise from the dead...etc). They also count the 2nd deutrocanonical books (which Protestants do not) in the bible (Macabees...Judith...) and base some church doctrine on. Salvation is through the Catholic church to the RCC (pointing to Jesus Christ)...for evangelical Protestants salvation is through the bible (pointing to Jesus Christ).

That is why I get very upset when people don't take the bible literally, since to me, it is Salvation (not to start a debate here). I see it disrepectful to the Lord to not believe the bible really happened (again, not to start a debate, just explaining why I said what I said). The story of Jonah for example says he was in the fish for "3 days". The "3 days" verse is from Hebrew, an idiom that can mean a few hours or 3 days. The 4th Chapter is often overlooked of Jonah, which is the whole point of the point...he is bitter against the Ninevah people and would rather die than go into town and share the gospel with them since he can not overcome his anger at the people, even to do what God commanded Him to do (chapter 4). My whole family makes jokes about this book to me since I do take it literally (Jesus refers to this story in Matthew when he brings up His death and life in 3 days)...I have a hard time with the whole "it never happened" thing. The bible has over 500 manuscripts and tons of historical artifacts supporting it, I do not see this story as a proverb.

Anyway, this story reminds me that no matter how I feel (and I felt pretty upset by your posts), I don't want to be a Jonah sitting out by a tree in 110 degree heat...and the tree gets eaten by a worm...and I won't get over myself enough to try to extend even a smidgen of grace to people compared to the bucket loads of grace God extended to me.

Thanks for taking the olive branch. In the future I will try to be more considerate.
 

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Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by duchess:
Salvation is through the Catholic church to the RCC (pointing to Jesus Christ)...for evangelical Protestants salvation is through the bible (pointing to Jesus Christ).

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quote:

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Originally posted by duchess:
for evangelical Protestants salvation is through the bible (pointing to Jesus Christ).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ham'n'Eggs:

quote:

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Originally posted by duchess:
for evangelical Protestants salvation is through the bible (pointing to Jesus Christ).

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For a minority that perform idolatory centred on the Bible, possibly.

For the rest of us, that is a pretty damn offensive thing to say.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Stoo:
Ham'n'Eggs & the tombster are quite correct.

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I hear tomb is needing to sharpen his claws. How nice of you to provide a scratchpad

Viki
 

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Posted by Ham'n'Eggs (# 629) on :
 
If Duchess were to attempt to discuss matters in Purgatory instead of treating Hell as if it were some kinda chill-out bar where she can open her mouth and let it all hang out (and blabber all over threads that are not appropriate for her to be on), she may find it to her benefit.

If she keeps dumping her crock in here, she will get roasted. Not a threat. Just a statistical probability.
 

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Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 
Ruth, I have read your e-mail. I read the alert which contains the e-mail body of the pm. I have not responded since I figured you wanted me to read through your posts on what you wrote about the bible before I replied back to you [you have a link you put in one of your posts]. Since I have recently had time constraints, I have not been able to set aside time to peruse it. I am glad we have a truce and that you feel my views are important enough and worthy of your time to oppose them.

Salvation is (of course!) through Jesus Christ. I take the view of Sola Scriptura, that God speaks to primarly through his word, that we learn what is expected of us, how He thinks and how we should act though His Word. Catholics to my knowledge take the view that He speaks through the primarly through the Catholic church...that they guide you through the bible. If that is not true, feel free to set me straight.

I made the mistake of not prefacing my post with "some" for evangelicals [mainly those of the Reformed branch]. Tomb, you are quite right, I that what I had no idea that was considered an offensive statement to some. I hope I have clarified that.

I worship God, not the bible, but I do hold the good book in high esteem, reading it to try to understand Whom God is and how He thinks. Worshipping the Good Book would be against Commandment #1 & #2, smart-aleck-Hamsneggs.

To explain myself a little further, good ol' Pastor Jim Myers of a church I used to go to put it this way..."Want to know God's will? Read the bible."

[fixed typo]

[ 15 July 2002, 23:14: Message edited by: tomb ]
 

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Posted by Ham'n'Eggs (# 629) on :
 
Thanks for the clarification duchess. The reason why it is offensive to many evangelicals is there are some who do appear to elevate Scripture to the position of worshipping it. But this is a subject for Purgatory, so I'll butt out...
 

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Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ham'n'Eggs:
If Duchess were to attempt to discuss matters in Purgatory instead of treating Hell as if it were some kinda chill-out bar where she can open her mouth and let it all hang out (and blabber all over threads that are not appropriate for her to be on), she may find it to her benefit.

If she keeps dumping her crock in here, she will get roasted. Not a threat. Just a statistical probability.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Nightlamp:
You never know Ham'n'Eggs Scott might learn to read some time before posting, but I wouldn't put much money on it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by duchess:
Nunc,

Thank you for your thoughtful reply.

---

And thanks for the clarity of yours.

quote:

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I did feel like you were picking on me personally rather than issues I put forth (the comments like "lack of integrity" and "we don't care what you have for breakfast"...and "don't push your views on me" (I paraphrased from memory but they are all in this thread). I never once put you down albeit I did have stabs at Austrailian breakfast's and the way Austrailia was formed.

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Yes I used the term lack of integrity and it was a personal remark, but not a generalised comment; I was commenting on how you appeared to generalise about what Australians eat for breakfast (although really, be honest, you've never been here, you wouldn't know) - and then complaining that we had generalised about what you eat for breakfast. This to me shows a lack of integrity - take it or leave it - if you complain about people generalising about you, don't generalise about them (now, where did I read that, in the Sermon on the Mount?). It had nothing to do with whether or not you are a Calvinist, and anyway, if I had made a blanket statement about Calvinists lacking integrity I would have been roasted, as several shipmates have promised you above. And, if I feel someone is treading on me I believe I have the space to be able to say, "By all means hold your views, but don't force them on me." I would accord you the same right if I were to start bashing on about how those who don't believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Sacrament are Hell-bound (not that I believe this).

quote:

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I do see good natured taunts (ribbing) going back and forth on SoF all the time. I meant my posts in that manner, not to literally put any country down or group of people, even if it came off that way.

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quote:

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When you tell me I am "lacking in integrity" to me that is pretty cold. It seemed like you just wanted to keep putting me down and yes, there was no other way I could see it but as personal since you didn't preface it like "you Calvinists lack integrity since you all...blah lbah" or "you inerrantists all lack integrity since you all ..." I do consider myself an honest person, albeit fallen person and I felt like I was going to finally start flaming you back with "takes one to know one" type comments. That is not my intent though (to be in a flame war), so I bit my tongue and reframed.

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quote:

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I am sorry about my comment re: the Penal Colony. I did not mean in any shape or form to put down Austrailia. My church has planted a church there in Brisbane and someday I plan on going there to visit. I do not look down on Oz and did not mean any disrespect.

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That's great. Although I worry about your church doing a plant here. We are not all barbarian cannibals you know, and the churches here are not remiss in preaching and living the gospel. It would be lovely to have you out here - and we shall organise a shipmeet.

quote:

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I guess you ironically have a dad with similar views as me. My dad is a bit agnositic, as you guessed, but he gives sermons (!) at the church he goes to (they let people get up there and have a go at that sort of thing). I have even critqued his first sermon at that church. I do know your views are much more different from my dad(for one, you are a Catholic, I am assuming a RCC one, not Orthodox).

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Don't assume too much. Looks like you have a bit of learning to do!!!

I am an Anglo-Catholic. An Anglican who has a catholic understanding of things. But yes, your dad and I don't share many common views... Although you say he goes to church? Id be interested which one...

quote:

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Anyway, RCC holds the bible to be true, but supplements it with church doctrine (that is my understanding). (RCC believes Jesus did actually rise from the dead...etc). They also count the 2nd deutrocanonical books (which Protestants do not) in the bible (Macabees...Judith...) and base some church doctrine on. Salvation is through the Catholic church to the RCC (pointing to Jesus Christ)...for evangelical Protestants salvation is through the bible (pointing to Jesus Christ).

---

quote:

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That is why I get very upset when people don't take the bible literally, since to me, it is Salvation (not to start a debate here). I see it disrepectful to the Lord to not believe the bible really happened (again, not to start a debate, just explaining why I said what I said). [Jonah story omitted...]

Anyway, this story reminds me that no matter how I feel (and I felt pretty upset by your posts), I don't want to be a Jonah sitting out by a tree in 110 degree heat...and the tree gets eaten by a worm...and I won't get over myself enough to try to extend even a smidgen of grace to people compared to the bucket loads of grace God extended to me.

---

quote:

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Thanks for taking the olive branch. In the future I will try to be more considerate.

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Thanks for this. I am glad. However, I think you and I and a number of others are going to come into quite a bit of conflict of views and perspectives, partly through what seems to be a different use of language, partly through continental/cultural differences, and partly because we are failing to understand each other's way of expressing things.

Let's call a truce, as Ruth says. But let's not pretend it is peace - because it patently cannot be until we understand each other more. And that means both an effort on my part to put aside the hackles that rise at the thought of fundamentalist evangelical sola scriptura-ist protestantism, and an effort on your part not to offend (please be very careful with this - I know you were not being deliberately offensive above, but then this is a case in point, where languge usage, however innocent, confuses meaning), to learn and understand where others are coming from, and - never to assume!
 

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Posted by Scot (# 2095) on :
 
Nightlamp, unless you (or H'n'E) can substantiate that in any way, I think we can all safely assume you are talking directly out of your ass. I am only aware of one host asking everyone to stay off of a thread to which I was posting. Of course I did so without further comment.

In short, if you have a legitimate and specific beef with me, then let's hear it. Otherwise, piss off.

scot
 

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Posted by duchess (# 2764) on :
 

quote:

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<snip!> Witness for example the exchange above - your last post to do with Scot's name being incorrectly spelt. There is an obvious division here where you perceive Scot to be "on your side" and so are sticking up for something he said. I feel the whole exchange was rather dubious/borderline, especially given the obvious "us" versus "them" mentality you and Scot have got happening.

Humour is a good thing. We must be careful how we use it.

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quote:

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I have not attacked you, but rather pointed out an inconsistency (or several) in your approach, and inconsistency, yes, that is not entirely lacking in my own conduct at times. As you say, we are bruised reeds...

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quote:

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That's great. Although I worry about your church doing a plant here. We are not all barbarian cannibals you know, and the churches here are not remiss in preaching and living the gospel. It would be lovely to have you out here - and we shall organise a shipmeet.

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Lord have mercy...it was not a slight on Australia to plant a church...it was an act of love. Not too many reformed churches in at least that area of Oz so some felt called to plant one. Thanks for the offer of meeting me at a shipmeet. Hopefully someday I will get out there, God willing and the well don't rise.

quote:

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I am an Anglo-Catholic. An Anglican who has a catholic understanding of things. But yes, your dad and I don't share many common views... Although you say he goes to church? Id be interested which one...

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quote:

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Anglicans hold a triad as very important: <snip! portion explaining triangle>We are saved by Grace: and this grace comes to us in faith, in the sacraments, in tradition, in the bible, and all gifts we are given.

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quote:

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No catholic believes him/herself to be saved through the church - although they will say that grace comes through the church especially in the sacraments, and that to not be in the church availing oneself of those graces(sacraments) is folly. However, I think you will find all Christians should agree that we are saved through Christ, the Way the Truth and the Life.

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quote:

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Sola Scriptura is inaccurate for a number of reasons - I will not go into them here as there are several threads that have treated the topic ad nauseam.

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quote:

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One reason it is inaccurate is that at some point in reading it someone has to interpret it, whether the individual reading it at home, or the minister/pastor-person up the front expounding it. When someone does interpret Scripture it is usual to turn to a commentary (especially in difficult passages) or some other guide. (Baaaad memories of Sunday afternoon bible studies where my dad would read a passage and then get out Calvin and Rushdoony and Matthew Henry.) In other words, one refers to other sources or "authorities" to get a better picture of what the words say and mean.

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quote:

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Catholics simply take this further and say that the church interprets Scripture; it was the church that decided at the ecumenical councils which books were canonical and which were not... The book Protestants uphold was not decided upon until around the 700s (IIRC). It was not dropped down from heaven into the lap of Luther or anyone else. There were several books that almost got rejected (James being one) and several books that almost qualify as canonical but which for some reason were omitted - several letters from different apostles and disciples of the apostles.

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quote:

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God obviously had enough confidence in the church/had obviously sent his Spirit upon it so that it might make the right decisions about what was to become the bundle of books that go by the reputation of having been "breathed" by God. I do not believe the Spirit has left the church, and therefore it has Christ's own authorisation to declare things "bound"/"unbound" on earth. It also means that we are subject to that Spirit of God; we are not subject to the black and white print on the pages of one's tatty little NIV(had mine for about 17 years... and boy is it tattered!).

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quote:

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As an Anglican I see the deuterocanonical books as "helpful for instruction" and the Anglican lectionary includes readings from them.

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Forgive me, but I am a tad confused. Do you see me as someone who needs to be extended grace - to be saved? (Every minute of every day, to be sure...) But I have to say I find it offensive that you perceive that catholics (or those who are not Sola Scriptura-ists) need to be saved as though they aren't (although it would be consistent with a calvinist system of belief).

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quote:

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However, I am glad you are trying to show grace. Though I am again a bit worried, because this is the second time you have told us how restrained you have been, how good you have been not to bite my head off. I don't understand what you are trying to do, but it comes across to me as slightly manipulative: "Look how good I have been, how I have been trying to exemplify Christ; and what are you doing but poking me and flaming me?"
Sorry, but I don't find this convincing.

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quote:

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Thanks for this. I am glad. However, I think you and I and a number of others are going to come into quite a bit of conflict of views and perspectives, partly through what seems to be a different use of language, partly through continental/cultural differences, and partly because we are failing to understand each other's way of expressing things.

---

quote:

---

Let's call a truce, as Ruth says. But let's not pretend it is peace - because it patently cannot be until we understand each other more. And that means both an effort on my part to put aside the hackles that rise at the thought of fundamentalist evangelical sola scriptura-ist protestantism, and an effort on your part not to offend (please be very careful with this - I know you were not being deliberately offensive above, but then this is a case in point, where languge usage, however innocent, confuses meaning), to learn and understand where others are coming from, and - never to assume!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Scot:
...In short, if you have a legitimate and specific beef with me, then let's hear it. Otherwise, piss off.

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Good Lord, not again!
 

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Posted by W (# 14) on :
 
This is indeed a grave and most terrible day.
 

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Posted by Scot (# 2095) on :
 
Sorry, Nightlamp. I misinterpreted your comment as the real thing instead of the well-deserved (by me) cheap shot that it was.

I shall now go and self-flagellate until I rid myself of this unseemly sensitivity.

scot
 

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Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 
Gawd, isn't this thread dead yet?

Alexis
 

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Posted by Bishop Joe (# 527) on :
 
All this is fine, but what has it to do with the price of tea in Boston Harbor?
 

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