Its particulary pleasing to know how Stonehenge was formed, its been causing me many sleepless nights recently.
Neil
David
Tekeli-li!
Interestingly, while I am not a Theosophist, I don't think some of their stuff is easily disprovable on scientific grounds -- some doesn't intrinsically conflict with Christian theology and can't really be disproven scientifically (the presence of an "astral plane," for example), some could be rejected on Christian doctrinal grounds (reincarnation). But the little I know of theosophy mainly concerns the afterlife and the like.
My own mother got into theosophy when she was younger, but due to the stroke she suffered shortly after I was born, her take on all of it is a bit disjointed. She more or less believes in reincarnation, I think, but doesn't have the same level of detail in her beliefs that actual theosophy teaches.
(I should mention here that my own beliefs regarding paranormal stuff, such as they are, are in spite of, not because of, hers. Just as a personal side note...)
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Interestingly, while I am not a Theosophist, I don't think some of their stuff is easily disprovable on scientific grounds -- some doesn't intrinsically conflict with Christian theology and can't really be disproven scientifically (the presence of an "astral plane," for example), some could be rejected on Christian doctrinal grounds (reincarnation). But the little I know of theosophy mainly concerns the afterlife and the like.
True, and I wouldn't even attempt to disprove the 'not so wacky' stuff.
But what about the fun stuff? Atlantis? Lemuria? The Final Evolution of Man? The floaty Psychically Powered Airships? The chemical weapons?
It's interesting that Helena Blavatsky's book The Secret Doctrine is actually still included in the official Theosophical Society website (hint: skip the dull stuff and read the 'evolution of man' chapters in Book II).
And what about the Anthroposophists? Originally a German splinter group of Theosophy, they're now actually bigger than the Theosophists. There are a fair number of Anthroposophical schools in Europe, for example, although in the US they're less respectable. Here's a site which considers Anthoposophists to be a dangerous cult, for example.
More links: The American Anthroposophical Society
The British Anthroposophical Society (which has a much better site design, by the way)
I'd also recommend to you Peter Washington's book Madame Blavatsky's Baboon. Written with no agenda (the writer seems genuinely uncertain as to whether he's on the side of the Theosophists or not. You decide), it's accessible, well-written and fascinating.
[ 02 April 2002: Message edited by: Wood ]
I've got to say, Steiner is my Number 1 all time favourite Bonkers Esoteric Savant™
Yet more linkage: Rudolf Steiner's writings online
Steiner's Cosmic Memory: The Prehistory of the Earth and Man
Anthroposophical World HQ (in German only)
[ 02 April 2002: Message edited by: Wood ]
However. Theosophy underwent a revival in the 80s. It's an interesting doctrine but I never bought into the bit about the Logos and the Seven Races. Meanwhile, one of the seminal books on Atlantis is "A Dweller on Two Planets" by Phylos the Tibetan (a typical Tibetan name, obviously), whose long rambling story is an apology for the mistakes he committed in his past lives in Atlantis, Lemuria and 19th century America. The story was channelled by an 18 year old boy through automatic writing. He goes into a lot of detail about life in Atlantis (which includes floaty airships et al). Luckily, I haven't been able to find an online version.
Which bit are they in Wood?
Neil
quote:
Originally posted by starbelly:
Well, I have read almost all the site now, and cant find what the sex secrets are!
They are secrets - if you could find them, they wouldn't be secrets anymore, would they?
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Meanwhile, one of the seminal books on Atlantis is "A Dweller on Two Planets" by Phylos the Tibetan (a typical Tibetan name, obviously), whose long rambling story is an apology for the mistakes he committed in his past lives in Atlantis, Lemuria and 19th century America. The story was channelled by an 18 year old boy through automatic writing. He goes into a lot of detail about life in Atlantis (which includes floaty airships et al). Luckily, I haven't been able to find an online version.
Me either. Tell us if you do...
Oh, and Neil - you want sex secrets? Here: Sex in the Lost Continents...
[ 03 April 2002: Message edited by: Wood ]
And at college I'm dealing with intelligent people who are talking about "life before birth" and how souls "choose" their bodies, families, fates.....
I'm glad I'm a Christian - they are all rational and sane, no odd beliefs or myths at all. 
Actually, it's interesting that quite early on, the 'root races' theories got co-opted into the racist theories of the early 20th century.
So that, the later Atlantean races still remained as the 'prehuman' Slavs and Chinese, while the Lemurians were left over in Astralia.
Just so you appreciate how far we've come, I have a mainstream 15-or-so-volume encyclopaedia published by Chambers in 1928. In its entry on race, it actually divides humans into three species, 'black', 'aryan' and 'oriental', and differentiates between the three. Guess which one they say is the best?
We really have come so far. And yet we have so far to go.
[ 23 May 2002: Message edited by: Wood ]
Here are a few pages.
I guess They want you to buy the book. You can get it from AmazonDotCom. Still not sure who They are...the Clintonites...the Kennedy's...the Kennedy Killers...CIA...FBI...MI5...Aliens a)camping out at Roswell b)hovering above us c)the ones we met on the moon that said "don't come back!
Whoever They are, we'd better watch out. Looks like They mean business.
Does AmazonDotCom mean alligators? Do alligators mean Simon's Pet Alligator? Sinister forces...
quote:
Originally posted by daisymay:
I'm glad I'm a Christian - they are all rational and sane, no odd beliefs or myths at all.
And with that, I'm simply reminding people that this thread is here...
quote:
So that, the later Atlantean races still remained as the 'prehuman' Slavs and Chinese, while the Lemurians were left over in Astralia.
Astralia seems wonderfully apt somehow!
) I have a question:What is Alcuin? As in his/her belief system? And how can anyone say all that with a straight face, let alone believe it all?
Viki, puzzling at the weirdness of the world
, I think it best that Alcuin should be left to say exactly what he/she would label him/herself as, rather than for us to make pronouncements.
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
At the risk of revealing a lack of diplomacy on my part
Ok, fair enough 
I'll pm alcuin...
Viki
quote:Whyever not? The Christian peripheral stuff now is worse still (Left Behind, anyone? Kenneth Copeland? I rest my case).
It is unwise to mock some theosophical peripheral stuff when the Christian equivalent current at that time was even worse.
quote:Yes. People still read books by (for example) Charles Haddon Spurgeon, and there are still movements begun then which are still going to day - like the Salvation Army.
Is there any legacy that is at all usable from 19th century Christianity except the buildings and the hymns ?
quote:Look, no one demonised Theosophy as a movement here.
You seem to have 'neatly' demonised and dismissed it, but is that enough ?
quote:OK. Before I settled on Christianity, I tried lots of stuff. I find Theosophy intensely interesting, although these days only in an academic kind of way.
Posted by Rudolf: While I cannot expect you to have first-hand knowledge of theosophy if you have never been interested in it, it does become an issue if you then want then to refer to it in the way you are doing, for whatever reason. What sources ARE you basing your opinions on ??
) Peter Washington's excellent and not unsympathetic book Madam Blavatsky's Baboon, which in all fairness skates over the Atlantis/Lemuria/Root Races stuff very early on, and shows how mainstream Theosophy has departed from it in the last 130 years or so. Washington's sources include the memoirs and letters of Olcott, Blavatsky, Besant, Steiner, Gurdjieff, Krishnamurti and their friends and families. quote:
from the Secret Doctrine, Bk. 2 (a long extract. But, hey, it's out of copyright): In the initial period of man's Fourth evolution, the human kingdom branched off in several and various directions. The outward shape of its first specimens was not uniform, for the vehicles (the egg-like, external shells, in which the future fully physical man gestated) were often tampered with, before they hardened, by huge animals, of species now unknown, and which belonged to the tentative efforts of Nature. The result was that intermediate races of monsters, half animals, half men, were produced. But as they were failures, they were not allowed to breathe long and live, though the intrinsically paramount power of psychic over physical nature being yet very weak, and hardly established, the 'Egg-Born' Sons had taken several of their females unto themselves as mates, and bred other human monsters. Later, animal species and human races becoming gradually equilibrised, they separated and mated no longer.
Man created no more - he begot. But he also begot animals, as well as men in days of old. Therefore the Sages (or wise men), who speak of males who had no more will-begotten offspring, but begat various animals along with Danavas (giants) on females of other species -- animals being as (or in a manner of) Sons putative to them; and they (the human males) refusing in time to be regarded as (putative) fathers of dumb creatures -- spoke truthfully and wisely. Upon seeing this (state of things), the kings and Lords of the Last Races (of the Third and the Fourth) placed the seal of prohibition upon the sinful intercourse. It interfered with Karma, it developed new (Karma). They (the divine Kings) struck the culprits with sterility. They destroyed the Red and Blue Races.
quote:But then, if you went to Genesis, you'd find stuff about Giants and stuff. BUT there are people who still believe in the seven-day creation, in the giants, in the Flood. There are many Christians here who believe in the True Presence.
back to Rudolf: Obviously, there also 'theosophists' who are riddled with beliefs in all sorts of odd stuff, but I am making an effort to stop this for myself and transfer it all into hypothesis/evidence systems, which in my view is much more comfortable.
quote:As for your comments about what Theosophy really is: I have no reason to argue with you. You basically expressed the Theosophical self-identifying statements as I understood them anyway (not a swipe - a compliment), and as such simply to say "as a Christian, I don't agree with them" was a little redundant. They were able to stand on their own.
Rudolf: I attempted to also write something about what theosophy really is about in my opinion, but you have ignored this.
quote:Um. This statement actually problematises itself, since it does actually represent a belief. Empiricism is as much of a metanarrative (and as essentially problematic) as any religious belief.
Rudolf also said: Belief as a general philosical standpoint is unwise, in my opinion - in its nature it is a bit of a gamble, and if you believe 'wrongly', you could have a problem.
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]quote:Apologies. I mistook you for a hit-and-run "I'll just object and clear off" poster. Which you're not.
Originally posted by rudolf:
No, I'm still here.
quote:George MacDonald.
Originally posted by rudolf:
4. Is there any legacy that is at all usable from 19th century Christianity except the buildings and the hymns ?
quote:To me, what I wrote only represents a belief in a belief-oriented system. I think it represents simultaneously two things on different levels:-
Posted by Wood:quote:
Rudolf also said: Belief as a general philosical standpoint is unwise, in my opinion - in its nature it is a bit of a gamble, and if you believe 'wrongly', you could have a problem.
Um. This statement actually problematises itself, since it does actually represent a belief. Empiricism is as much of a metanarrative (and as essentially problematic) as any religious belief.
quote:This seems very odd to me, but this sort of stuff seems to turn up in all the oldest books - Bible, Mahabharata, Secret Doctrine, and so on. Usually, no-one ever takes any notice of it, and I don't think anyone in any of the relevant traditions actually studies it.
Man created no more - he begot. But he also begot animals, as well as men in days of old. Therefore the Sages (or wise men), who speak of males who had no more will-begotten offspring, but begat various animals along with Danavas (giants) on females of other species -- animals being as (or in a manner of) Sons putative to them; and they (the human males) refusing in time to be regarded as (putative) fathers of dumb creatures -- spoke truthfully and wisely. Upon seeing this (state of things), the kings and Lords of the Last Races (of the Third and the Fourth) placed the seal of prohibition upon the sinful intercourse. It interfered with Karma, it developed new (Karma). They (the divine Kings) struck the culprits with sterility. They destroyed the Red and Blue Races.
quote:Out of the Answers in Genesis crowd? All of them. It's part of their whole raison d'etre. They openly believe and fight to prove it 'scientifically'. There are a hell of a lot of 'em, and there's more every year.
Originally posted by rudolf:
Could they be taking literally something that 'nearly everyone else' has taken to be metaphorical. Do they think the story ......God, Adam, Eve, Serpent ....... was real and what actually happened ? perhaps they do.
What percentage do you think believe literally in Adam and Eve ?
quote:No. If only it were that simple.
Do you think they do this sort of thing as a test of their faith ?
Or do they just do it to annoy other people ??
quote:I do hope that's the case, too.
I must say that I think the % of theosophists who bother about the 3rd and 4th races (as in your previous quote) would be extremely small, and (I hope) approaching zero.
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)![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
quote:Yeah, and the salad is a bit weird too.
Posted by maleveque:
I've always been highly suspicious of Waldorf schools since then.
quote:You see, that's why it's all crap. The Nazis (and the Victorian Atlantologists) all assumed that the original Aryans were blonde, blue-eyed types from Atlantis, and not, as we know to be the case, the guys who, among other things, wrote the Mahabharata. So they were wrong.
Originally posted by golden key:
Re Nazis and Aryans: Actually, Aryans are *not* the blonde, blue-eyed Germans. Don't know how the Nazis ever pushed that. Aryans are the *other* German race--the short, dark-haired folks. And the Brahmin caste of India is Brahmin.
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quote:Hi ! Is a webcam live broadcast possible ???
I decided to do a talk entitled (surprise) Sex Secrets of Lost Atlantis! which was, I thought, going to be a light-hearted talk on the mystical pseudoarchaeological theories of yore (if you're in Swansea, it's Weds 7th April, 7pm, Esso Lecture Theatre, Opposite Taliesin, University, Singleton Park. Not that I'm plugging it or anything), using, among other things, some old issues of Prediction and some of the fabulous texts I'd linked here, in a kind of, "gosh, weren't those Victorians silly?" kind of way.
quote:I care, and I'm glad it went well. Next time bring some pepper spray for folks like Madame Blavatsky's disciple.
Originally posted by The Milkman of Human Kindness:
I thought some of you might be interested to know how the talk went.
...
The Russian guy who'd asked about the Vedas grabbed me at the end and started talking at great length about Madame Blavatsky's racial theories. When he got to the point where he said "A lot of people are scared of eugenics, but I think it's a really good idea," I ran. As fast as I could.
...
Not that you care. But I'll tell you anyway...
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)
quote:For about the seventeen millionth time, Rudolf. The stuff on this thread is NOT ABOUT Mme Blavatsky, bless her Theosophical cotton socks - this is about the people who do use and abuse the weird bits of what Blavatsky wrote.
Originally posted by rudolf:
This was the point of her work, not 'what did Lemurians look like'. In the same way, Gandhi's message was not about spinning, and Jesus' message was not about wine. I find it strange that people are happy to mis-read (distort?) her contribution in the way that happens here. (pepper spray ? eh ? what is that all about ? )
quote:For example, you didn't have to mention Madame Blavatsky at all ! You already give a good account of what happened without mentioning her, but you did .....
The Russian guy who'd asked about the Vedas grabbed me at the end and started talking at great length about Madame Blavatsky's racial theories. When he got to the point where he said "A lot of people are scared of eugenics, but I think it's a really good idea," I ran. As fast as I could.
quote:But then I went to the site, and it's true.
Freemasonry Watch has lots of creepy pics and a really creepy web-tune to go with it!
quote:OK, I accept that, but may write again when I feel 'sensationalism' is creeping in.
We're NOT TALKING ABOUT THEOSOPHY, RUDOLF! We're talking about Atlantis. Which part of that is so difficult to understand?
quote:But that's exactly what happened - the guy talked at me for ages about Mme Blavatsky and her concept of root races, and then travelled straight from that to eugenics, do not pass go, do not collect two hundred quid. I think that says more about him (and about what he thinks of Mme B) than it does about dear old Mme B herself (sure, she was a hideous racist, but then show me a Victorian who wasn't).
Originally posted by rudolf:
OK Milkman, I get what you're saying - perhaps I'm being hypersensitive, and perhaps I'm in 'text mode' unnecessarily, but you wrote
quote:For example, you didn't have to mention Madame Blavatsky at all ! You already give a good account of what happened without mentioning her, but you did...
The Russian guy who'd asked about the Vedas grabbed me at the end and started talking at great length about Madame Blavatsky's racial theories. When he got to the point where he said "A lot of people are scared of eugenics, but I think it's a really good idea," I ran. As fast as I could.
quote:David Icke
Originally posted by The Milkman of Human Kindness:
Golden Key: Reptilians?? And there was me thinking it was Greys... Or was it fish-guys?
quote:There are 3 main sets of theories about what happened in the sweep of history:-
Well, if you believe some people, Rudolf, reptilian aliens landed, gave us "Egyptian" culture, and started a dynasty that continues to this day!
quote:Actually, I agree on that. I'm not saying that any of the alternative theories are at all accurate. Just that they can provide both mental exercise and entertainment. (I love playing with ideas, and seeing if there's any way they *could* be true.)
Originally posted by rudolf:
I want to say that in some way, I think we are enriched by having a third theory. Life was too boring with only theories 1 or 2.
quote:It's this kind of thinking that makes scientists insane. Hell, it makes me insane. Like the universe isn't interesting enough without pulling insane pseudoscientific hypotheses out of our asses. The whole point of a theory is that empirical testing and research bears it out or doesn't. The Theory of Evolution, for example, has been *generally* borne out by study, so insisting that it is a large part of the explanation for how any creature has changed over time is not being "stuck in a rut"; it's good science. I won't argue that the so called "creation scientists" aren't stuck in a rut, since the "science" supporting creation "science" is so nuts that there really isn't much you can do with it.
Originally posted by golden key:
quote:Actually, I agree on that. I'm not saying that any of the alternative theories are at all accurate. Just that they can provide both mental exercise and entertainment. (I love playing with ideas, and seeing if there's any way they *could* be true.)
Originally posted by rudolf:
I want to say that in some way, I think we are enriched by having a third theory. Life was too boring with only theories 1 or 2.
I also think that people in both the evolution and creation camps tend to restrict themselves to a very narrow interpretation, and get stuck in a rut.
quote:No. And even though golden key may be bright enough to play with these ideas without believing them, there are whole swaths of society, badly educated, who actually buy stuff like this and believe it. So quite unlike "enrichment", I think such things provide "derichment" or "unrichment".
Originally posted by The Milkman of Human Kindness:
Do you really think we're enriched at all by that third theory.
quote:Or even impoverishment?
Originally posted by Laura:
So quite unlike "enrichment", I think such things provide "derichment" or "unrichment".
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quote:Or even impoverishment?
Originally posted by Laura:
So quite unlike "enrichment", I think such things provide "derichment" or "unrichment".
quote:Hey, I was simply helping Laura find a better word for it.
Originally posted by golden key:
quote:Simply by existing? By being available?
Originally posted by The Milkman of Human Kindness:
quote:Or even impoverishment?
Originally posted by Laura:
So quite unlike "enrichment", I think such things provide "derichment" or "unrichment".
And, respectfully, Milkman, if bizarre ideas are automatically so dangerous, then why do *you* play with them? You've mentioned reading a wide variety things that many people would consider bizarre, lecturing on them, etc.
quote:The desire of the Victorian mind to attribute everything to one common source is in my opinion potentially one of the most damaging ideas which still afflicts the study of ancient history, and I'm glad that in the last 30 years or so, the orthodoxy has finally come to reject it.
As far as odd ideas being seductive...well, yes, they can be. I've also seen people "seduced" by more orthodox ideas. I think it's easiest to lose your balance if you're really depressed and want the world to make sense. Sometimes, a person's pattern-seeker goes into overdrive--from what I understand, certain kinds of brain glitches can cause the more extreme manifestations.
quote:I got Rudolf's point about these people wanting to find the precise point where people became conscious thinking beings, but disagree that the theosophical myths are at all helpful in this, instead actually obscuring the truth. Steiner himself was, whatever his good points, Not Being Allegorical.
I think what Rudolf was trying to say was that there's also the problem of the Self, how it develops, and whether that's accounted for in origin theories.
quote:I think the analogy with the making of explosives is a little wrong, personally.
There can be dangerous ideas, but IMHO I think they're more apt to be things you could actually act on and use. I don't want to know about that kind of stuff, any more than I want to know how to make explosives--and for the same reasons.
quote:Remember, the last time this stuff was widely taught to the general populace as true, twelve million people ended up in concentration camps, and six million Jews went died for it.
(thinking) Actually, the *most* dangerous ideas are probably ones that encourage you to inflate your own worth at someone else's expense. Like racism.
quote:Where you're talking about oppressive ideas, yes, *as I mentioned*. Please don't associate me with that crap!
Originally posted by The Milkman of Human Kindness:
quote:Remember, the last time this stuff was widely taught to the general populace as true, twelve million people ended up in concentration camps, and six million Jews went died for it.
(thinking) Actually, the *most* dangerous ideas are probably ones that encourage you to inflate your own worth at someone else's expense. Like racism.
I think that this is what's at stake. If an idea is wrong and harmless, maybe we can leave it alone. If an idea is wrong and another potential excuse for evil, it NEEDS to be shown as the lie it is.
![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
)quote:Chill. I didn't associate them with *you* at all. In fact, I wasn't intending any of my comments to be directed at you at all, since you said yourself you don't believe in it. I was simply saying why I think believing in the Atlantis stuff is potentially harmful.
Originally posted by golden key:
Where you're talking about oppressive ideas, yes, *as I mentioned*. Please don't associate me with that crap!
quote:Ditto.
You seem to be assuming what ideas I play with. (e.g. "this stuff") I'm *not* interested in ideas that say one group is better than another.
quote:That's a good attitude. as long as you recognise when an idea's made of crap.
I just like to play with ideas in general, turning them over in my hands and seeing what they're made of. That holds true for ideas from science, religion, culture, history, and just daily life.
quote:I was astonished at how common it is, although much more so in mainland Europe (and especially the former USSR, with its neopagan Nazis and stuff). Of course, a lot of this stuff isn't written in English, which is a barrier to reading it. Not that I'd necessarily want to.
I've rarely encountered Atlantis and such used as racist propaganda.
quote:I wasn't talking about Lovecraft. I was using the adjective "Lovecraftian". Different thing. Anyway, he's supposed to be creepy. He was a horror story writer (and a prety bad one at that).
Originally posted by rudolf:
1. I think HP Lovecraft is deplorable and creepy
quote:Cayce's part of the whole mythology, unfortunately.
, and I don't like Edgar Cayce or Lobsang Rampa, or indeed the whole 'Holy Blood Holy Grail' collective (the black background website people)
quote:How is simply stating that the guy actually meant what he said maligning him? He meant what he said. Many of his followers (read Maleveque's Waldorf guy from page one of this thread) believe in the literal truth of his .
However, I think Steiner made a truly original and very valuable contribution, and I admire him greatly - I suppose I will have to write something to set the record straight, as I still feel the Milkman is maligning him.
quote:Right. I have no idea what you;re going on about now, and frankly you're scaring me, Rudolf.
2. With eugenics - in farming, as far as I can tell, to successfully raise pedigree animals, you need to control the conditions very carefully. If you can't control the conditions like that, then mongrels and cross-breeds do very much better ! The same may be true about people, where migrants generally do better than the locals (except for the ones who don't !)
quote:Unfortunately it seems that the writer is a very 'rules-based' person. Steiner schools are not about control, as the writer seems to be implying, they are about setting up the best conditions possible for the inner abilities of the child to be brought out (as in e-ducere - latin, rough translation to lead out). Some of the things they do seem unusual, and they DO paint the walls in suitable colours for the stages of development of the children. But then, everyone does that - what is the percentage of green walls in hospitals ?
I know that Rudolf Steiner was the originator of Waldorf schools. I'm no expert, but I know they do stuff that seems kind of peculiar to most people. The classrooms must be painted with a particular kind of paint in particular colors in a prescribed order (i.e. room 1 is blue, room 2 green, etc.). When a friend was sending her child to a Waldorf school, I read the handbook that came home with him with all the rules - and there are many of them! They could not wear velcro. None of their clothing, including underwear, or lunchboxes could have any cartoon characters or commercial logos on them.
quote:(sorry if this is tiresome) - it is NOT ABOUT BELIEF. It is about practical techniques, and about philosophies, working hypotheses. People in the Steiner movement DO NOT generally have beliefs. The same applies to Theosophy.
Many of his followers (read Maleveque's Waldorf guy from page one of this thread) believe in the literal truth of his .
quote:Chill. I didn't associate them with *you* at all. In fact, I wasn't intending any of my comments to be directed at you at all, since you said yourself you don't believe in it. I was simply saying why I think believing in the Atlantis stuff is potentially harmful.
Originally posted by golden key:
Where you're talking about oppressive ideas, yes, *as I mentioned*. Please don't associate me with that crap!
quote:That's a good attitude. as long as you recognise when an idea's made of crap.
I just like to play with ideas in general, turning them over in my hands and seeing what they're made of. That holds true for ideas from science, religion, culture, history, and just daily life.
quote:So what, you think I can't read or something?
Originally posted by golden key:
Um, you quoted me, then said "remember..." as if you were addressing me. What else was I to think?
quote:Nope, not at all! Just explaining why it seemed that your comments were directed at me.
Originally posted by The Milkman of Human Kindness:
quote:So what, you think I can't read or something?
Originally posted by golden key:
Um, you quoted me, then said "remember..." as if you were addressing me. What else was I to think?
quote:Apology accepted!
Originally posted by The Milkman of Human Kindness:
Ok. They weren't at any point, and I'm sorry if they seemed to be.
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quote:That's good to hear. They sound like a sensible bunch of people.
Originally posted by Kevin Iga:
Okay, Milkman. I posted to a board where Pagans (primarily Wiccans) frequent, and asked them about Murry Hope. One person thinks that name sound vaguely familiar but of the three or four who responded at all, no one follows Hope's stuff, and all of them think Atlantis is a bunch of baloney.
quote:Well Milkman ......... is that coincidence testable ?
..... every religious group has its vocal minority of nuts. Most of them seem to be where I live, weirdly...
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quote:It gets weirder still; in my search for info on her on the other board Kiga mentioned, I found and posted this:
Originally posted by The Milkman of Human Kindness:
They really do. The current proponent of these ideas is a neo-pagan writer named Murry Hope. Ms. Hope has been writing books on Egyptian, Siriun (sic) and Atlantean mysticism for over twenty years (in fact, I first came across her while searching the net for the names of some of the more prolific writers in the late 70s and early 80s issues of Prediction I inherited from my Dad).
quote:
Here's her publisher -- scroll down to "Hope, Murry":
http://www.thoth.co.uk/listauth.html
David
I live to swerve
Update:
quote:http://www.thoth.co.uk/books6.html#1
The Lion People: Intercosmic Messages from the Future
By Murry Hope
The author one of the leading writers on the metaphysics and parapsychology of ancient beliefs reveals her channeled communications with the Paschats, a race of leonine beings from another world and another time. Covers the nature of death, karma and reincarnation; procedures of healing, and self-healing; the reality of other intelligent forms in the universe; the cosmic connection between Sirius and the planet Earth; new and intriguing ways of self-discovery; why some people seem to have an easy life while others suffer.
the author also provides evidence from historic sources, ancient arcane traditions, art, anthropology and astrology, which lend credence to the existence of Paschats and support for their message. If you feel an affinity with felines you will love The Lion People, a fascinating and gripping revelation from Outer Space and Outer Time. they are watching guiding and caring!
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![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
It's all kinda Call of Cthulhu, really, with all the Old Ones and Lesser Independent Races and stuff).quote:Aha! I think this may be the key; I've been finding overall that many different things are much more extreme or even deformed among a certain type of university student, and once in the outside world, one finds people who are more balanced about such matters.
Originally posted by The Milkman of Human Kindness:
[QB]Admittedly the pagan students in the uni near where I live are generally held in contempt by the more serious ones I know, and it's the university pagans who I've heard the mad stuff from.
[QB]
quote:from Rob Brezsney's Free Will Astrology website
Beltane Prayer
by Rob Brezsny
Dear Goddess, You hotly tender, lyrically disciplined, orgiastically sacred feeling that is even now running through all of our soft warm animal bodies:
We love you and invoke you and ask that you inspire us to purge the wishy-washy wishes that distract us from our daring, dramatic, divine desires.
Dear Goddess of Strawberry Fields -- by which I mean organic, non-genetically modified strawberries --
and Dear Goddess of Democracy -- by which I mean the real coyote angel rebel fool brand of democracy, democracy of crazy wisdom and raging acts of forgiveness and breathtaking collaborative breakthroughs --
Inspire us, please, to be ingenious givers of gifts and blessings, exuberant bestowers of praise and gratitude, fully ripe devotess of the sacred mystery that you send us every hour of every day.
Dear Goddess, You psychedelic mushroom cloud at the center of all our brains:
Motivate us to bend and even break all rules, customs, habits, and traditions that prevent the law of love from reigning supreme
quote:Thanks for this, David. Good site!
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
A very good site on Paganism is Wicca for the Rest of Us.
I like her comments in the "counter-movement" section. (link at the bottom of the page)
quote:Eurgh. I think I need a shower now...
Originally posted by rudolf:
Dear Goddess, You hotly tender, lyrically disciplined, orgiastically sacred feeling that is even now running through all of our soft warm animal bodies:
quote:Poetically!?
I'm interested in opinions on this - I take it in my stride, and see what he (poetically)
quote:Don't know about its paganism, but speaking literarily, man it was awful. I mean, "daring, dramatic, divine desires"? This man needs to be shot STRAIGHT AWAY for crimes against the English language.
means about the 'spring feeling', and I don't see any harm in it. In fact, I see quite a lot of good intentions - he is attempting to follow the law of love, after all. Is that not enough ??
Or does it's 'paganism' make it wrong (or the fact that he is an astrologer make HIM wrong)
quote:1. Why, if the thread is on rails, where are they going to ?
First point: are you deliberately trying to derail my thread, Rudolf?
quote:I acknowledge that you are a fair and liberal Christian.
Second: I don't understand the point you're trying to make. Are you trying to goad me into saying it's wrong and hellbound because it's pagan? I am not a pagan. I have a whole (fairly short) lifetime's experience with paganism and the occult, and I don't agree with it. So what? You're going to paint me as a bigot because I hold a different belief system?
quote:Wow. I think if you read this with a steady beat behind it, you could start a new free-associative beat poetry craze. Can somebody find this guy some venture capital?
Excerpted from material originally posted by rudolf:
Well, Dear Milkman
I'll make an attempt to reply...
Why, if the thread is on rails, where are they going to ?
2. It seemed to be drifting off, so I posted something ...... I thought it might wind you up a bit and I wanted to see what you really think........ as you say, you don't understand some of the points I'm trying to make ..... Direct personal experience is all that really matters, and it grieves me greatly when people 'shoehorn' their experiences to fit their belief systems (though I am not saying you are doing this, you may be)... then taking the p*ss about anything that does not fit with your position (Atlantis, Steiner, theosophy .... ). ...My seeds in the greenhouse were germinating, weeds were emerging as fast as I could pull them up, the first butterflies were out, the insects were eating each other, the birds were singing, the hawthorn is on blossom, the perfume was amazing (and then there are women too !). This is a stunning world to live in. And I was too lazy to write something myself, but the thing I posted was close enough to my feelings, so I posted it....What can I say ? - perhaps I haven't met the right Christians, but I feel they don't honour this aspect of the world enough (they don't notice it at all... and, whatever their faults, at least they celebrate spring properly !
quote:Well, a fair Christian, anyway. Well, Ok, a Christian. Well, OK, you've got me.
Originally posted by rudolf:
I acknowledge that you are a fair and liberal Christian.
quote:Well, gosh. Thanks.
Perhaps I should cease with this highest possible praise,
quote:Didn't think so.
but I can't really resist continuing ...
quote:BUT even if they are a problem, this thread is about what some people - some but not all of whom ARE anthroposophists, pagans etc - believe.
1. I think my most important point is that (yet again) you mention "belief systems". I want to repeat the point (which is important to me) that I think belief systems are a major problem.
quote:I have a direct personal experience of archaeology and historical methodology. I am not dismissing the physical side of pseudo-mystical Atlantology out of hand...
(though I am not saying you are doing this, you may be)
quote:I have never at any point taken the piss out of Steiner or out of Theosophy, despite your repeated (and frankly baffling) accusations that I am doing so.
To me you are consistently taking an 'insider' and 'correct' postition, and then taking the p*ss about anything that does not fit with your position (Atlantis, Steiner, theosophy .... ).
quote:I honestly cannot put into words how patronising this is. You accuse me of taking the piss (which I - mostly - am not) and then tell me it's because I'm insecure in my position and I'm trying to emotionally prop myself up?
That may help you to feel 'stronger' in your position, but are you in fact bricking up the door and cementing yourself inside ? Many do, sadly.
quote:You really, really, really haven't met the right Christians.
What can I say ? - perhaps I haven't met the right Christians, but I feel they don't honour this aspect of the world enough (they don't notice it at all ?)
quote:From what I read on the site, she wouldn't expect you to become a Pagan. She's cool with other faiths.
Milkman wrote:
Re. Chast's "Wicca for the Rest of Us" link. read a bit more of it. Still not convinced to leave everything and become a pagan. But I LOVE the writer of that site, and she is my friend, whether she wants to be or not.
quote:
Rudolf wrote, re the Free-will Astrology site:
I thought it was entertaining, and it demonstrates that everyone has different limit points - golden key and Chas didn't mind it at all, I quite like his lively approach, you didn't take to it (I love understatement, as you know)
Well, I've run across Rob before, both online and on the radio. I also know a couple of fans, who periodically forward his writings. IMHO, there's more to him than his writing style. He's basically about trying to make the world a better place. But isn't direct personal experience a belief system, too, in a way?![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
quote:...running off to the music store to get some bongo drums...
Laura wrote:
Wow. I think if you read this with a steady beat behind it, you could start a new free-associative beat poetry craze. Can somebody find this guy some venture capital?
quote:Er...actually, I somehow got the impression that you *did* do that. *But* I'm sincerely glad to find out that you don't!
Milkman wrote:
I do not read books in order to dismiss them.
quote:I imagine all of your posts to be spoken with the voice of Dr. Cox. I always have. Odd, don't you think?
Originally posted by The Milkman of Human Kindness:
please imagine this post to be spoken with the voice of Dr. Cox off of Scrubs.
quote:Odd, and strangely flattering.
Originally posted by Scot:
quote:I imagine all of your posts to be spoken with the voice of Dr. Cox. I always have. Odd, don't you think?
Originally posted by The Milkman of Human Kindness:
please imagine this post to be spoken with the voice of Dr. Cox off of Scrubs.
quote:Bingo.
Originally posted by golden key:
quote:From what I read on the site, she wouldn't expect you to become a Pagan. She's cool with other faiths.
Milkman wrote:
Re. Chast's "Wicca for the Rest of Us" link. read a bit more of it. Still not convinced to leave everything and become a pagan. But I LOVE the writer of that site, and she is my friend, whether she wants to be or not.
quote:I never meant that anyone was trying to convert me. It was more a defensive move against those who might say "<gasp> he likes a Wiccan site! He's an apostate!"
Originally posted by Nightwind:
quote:Bingo.
From what I read on the site, she wouldn't expect you to become a Pagan. She's cool with other faiths.
quote:Hi.
Hi guys. Figured with all the recent cross-pollenization between this forum and mine, I should at least say hi.
So, "Hi."
quote:What is this word "gratuitous"? Is there any such thing as "gratuitous" amounts of sarcasm?
Glad people seem to like the site. Although I have been accused of wielding gratuitous ammounts of sarcasm.
![[Love]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by The Milkman of Human Kindness:
Oh, and Chast, if you post here and mention "The Crisis on One Million Kingdoms Come Clone Saga" or somesuch, I swear I will find out where you live and hire someone to kill you, preferably by ramming your entire comic book collection into every available orifice and several unavailable ones.
Um... you know... I composed my post BEFORE you posted your comment above... ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
![[Embarrassed]](icon_redface.gif){kind=icon}
quote:I think I see what you mean about the virtual swirlies - I like that !!
Wow. I think if you read this with a steady beat behind it, you could start a new free-associative beat poetry craze. Can somebody find this guy some venture capital?
--------------------
Administering virtual swirlies to the intellectually needy since 1998
quote:
Originally posted by The Milkman of Human Kindness:
and hire someone to kill you
Oh, no! What's that sound?
quote:Thank you. I'll porke around a bit at least. Just not sure that I'll have a lot to add here...
Originally posted by birdie:
Ahem... Nightwind - that is a fantastic site! Have only had a chance to skim bits of it so far but I'll certainly be back. Fantastic reading, thanks.
quote:Heh. That's what we all said. Next thing you know, you're at 1000 posts and going strong.
Originally posted by Nightwind:
Just not sure that I'll have a lot to add here...
quote:Yes, it's all part of the great crossover thingie, and -- aaaa!!!!! AIGHHH! NOOO! NOT THE FACE!! NOT THE FA-
Originally posted by birdie:
double post: an ocelot???
We do eagerly await more Atlantis info, though. Well, I do anyway. On a side note, what is your opinion regarding the prevalence of Atlantis in fiction -- do you see it as keeping false notions alive, or as more or less harmless fun?
quote:I'm frightened now, and not of vampires.
Originally posted by Nightwind:
I've seen a serious website stating the existance of Slayers (a la Buffy, I'm sure, as the author claimed to be a member of the Vampire Nation).
quote:Oh, I have less problem with the notion of vampires than with the notion of Slayers, mainly because the latter is explicitly a work of very very recent fiction. Vampires, at least, have been around as an idea for a lot longer.
Originally posted by The Milkman of Human Kindness:
There's a book by Montague Summers, best known as the traslator of Kramer and Sprenger's Malleus Mallificarum, written in the 1920s, called The Vampire, about the history of vampires. it assumes that they utterly exist.
![[Not worthy!]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
quote:I know that laughing at some people's beliefs is not nice, right, but in this case...
Originally posted by Nightwind:
The Drow are from Dungeons & Dragons. When I saw the posts I even started scouring the internet to be sure that the Drow weren't based on some old myth (lots of D&D critters are).
Sorry, no Drow.
quote:I recommend Summers' book mentioned above, which, among other things, includes nearly a whole chapter about how Dracula is rubbish and gives reasons why it can't be true.
Originally posted by nicolemrw:
for that matter, vampires as depicted in most of popular culture nowadays are pretty much a literary creation. read up on the real folk lore of vampires and you'll find they are something quite different. bram stoker created most of the popular image with dracula, though there were some fictional predeccessors.
quote:Summers??? As in Buffy Summers' great-great-whomever? Oh, my--then Buffy *must* be true!
Originally posted by The Milkman of Human Kindness:
I recommend Summers' book mentioned above, which, among other things, includes nearly a whole chapter about how Dracula is rubbish and gives reasons why it can't be true.
But I wouldn't be surprised if the Buffy writers chose that name on purpose!
I WIN!!!! ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
:
quote:Yes, and readers of the X-Men will know that the Scott Summers/Jean Grey "family tree" is one of the most insanely convoluted things in comic book history, involving clones, time-travelling offspring from two alternate futures (!), cosmic energy duplicates, space pirates, etc., so now that Milkman has revealed it I can say that this was the Summers I was thinking of; if Buffy were in the Marvel universe she doubtless would be related.
Originally posted by The Milkman of Human Kindness:
Ann Summers, the ladies only fetish retailer, and Scott Summers who I am given to understand is one of the X-Men.
Shoot me now.
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
quote:Aw, no. Please. No more.
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Yes, and readers of the X-Men will know that the Scott Summers/Jean Grey "family tree" is one of the most insanely convoluted things in comic book history...
![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
quote:I'm still working through it. Preliminary reports suggest that it is (and I use specialised academic terminology here) as mad as a badger in a tutu.
So, Milkman, how was that book you received that you posted about?
quote:
Originally posted by The Milkman of Human Kindness:
...as mad as a badger in a tutu. ... It just doesn't get any better than this.
quote:Bit rich in a book written by an ex-Nazi, I thought.
From Peter Tompkins' introduction to Otto Muck's book, "The Secret of Atlantis" (slightly abridged for hyperbole):
Here you have the greatest case of genocide that ever hit the planet,
quote:That's something to be proud of?
one that exterminated all your forefathers... and you are asked to be a juror at the trial.
The first denunciation, given in a thin voice by ...Plato (who) got his facts from his maternal uncle, was vague, but piquing.
The charges, as preferred in the text before you, are more specific - that at 8 pm on June 5th, 8498 BC, the accused, named Asteroid A, did wildly go off course, break into pieces, plunge into the Atlantic's Bermuda Triangle, and engender a holocaust worse than 30,000 hydrogen bombs, dragging with it... an entire island civilisation and the better part of mankind on the planet.
In favour of the accused is the argument that being one of some two thousand wildly orbiting miniplanet... the accused was driven wilder by the incestuous conjunction of Selene and Aphrodite with Helios, the grandaddy of them all.
Who is the prosecutor? A German scientist responsible with his inventions for the development of two of the deadlier instruments of World War II, the schnorkel and the guided missile rocket, the late Otto Muck.
quote:
Who defends the accused? None but a prejudiced society, hypnotised for millennia by the doggerel propaganda of self-emasculate transvestites
quote:So, not in the least bit biased, then.
nurtured on a mythology so fanciful as to make science fiction plausible, who claim that nothing catastrophic ever happened to the divinely orchestrated roundelay of planets.
quote:Funny how Otto seems to focus so much on ethnography.
It can be tiresome to be yanked from life to do one's duty as a juror. But once the evidence is marshalled, it must be judged. The Atlantis tale may be your own
quote:Perhaps he was expressing admiration.
Originally posted by Wood:
Bit rich in a book written by an ex-Nazi, I thought.
quote:No offence taken, GK.
Originally posted by golden key:
Question: are all of those quotes from Peter Tompkins? And verbatim?
quote:I think (and I guess you probably already think this) it kind of proves that you can't ever assume that a writer is always going to be any good - or always bad, for that matter. Mr. Tompkins' bonkers stuff doesn't discount the good ideas he mught have (although before the Muck book, I'd never heard of him).
Originally posted by golden key:
Darn! It's the same Peter Tompkins. (Muck is mentioned about 4/5 of the way down the page.)
Since Muck's book was about Atlantis, I thought it might be the same PT.
PT can get *way* out there, but I've never seen him get quite that far...
Oh, well, there is interesting info in his plant and soil books.
quote:ie. anyone with a brain would rather have evolved from a big old amoeba, divinely sculpted, than from an apelike common ancestor, evolved through natural selection.
From HP Blavatsky's The Secret Doctrine Vol. 2, 1974 California Theosophical Press Verbatim Edition, p151f:
Every unprejudiced person would prefer to believe that primeval humanity had at first an ethereal or - if so preferred - a huge, filamentoid, jelly-like form, evolved by gods or natural 'forces', which grew, condensed through our millions of ages, and became gigantis in its physical impulse and tending, until it settled into the huge physical form of the fourth Root Race...
quote:Nope. not me.
Originally posted by rudolf:
Do you have anything to do with it ??
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
:wipes drool off chin:quote:But is he snipped?
Thus pontificated golden key:
He's righteous!
quote:Mr. Punk, I do not understand what you mean in the above.
Originally posted by MarkthePunk:
1. I fail to see what this discussion has to do with God's inerrant Word.
2. San Francisco, being very very Liberal™ , will fall under God's judgment, probably from a really nasty earthquake that sends it to the bottom of the ocean where that modern day Sodom belongs.
All in accordance with prophesy, of course.
God bless!
quote:Oh, he just hasn't had enough Ben & Jerry's. Here, Punk, chill out and have some ice cream!
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
Mr. Punk, I do not understand what you mean in the above.
quote:Jesus has a registered trademark???
Even our Lord and Saviour, Jesus®
So all the churches have to literally pay him his due?quote:Thanks for saving the city from the wrath of the Mark. But may I introduce you to SF Science 101?
If you want, I could suggest where you could go to experience the warmth and hospitality available in San Francisco. Then you know with a sure and certain hope that it is Marin County than needs to drop into the Bay.
quote:what is one of these? I mean....what's the 101 bit for?
SF Science 101
quote:What happens to a church that doesn't? (See the Apocalypse for a hint.)
Originally posted by golden key:
quote:Jesus has a registered trademark???
Originally posted by The Bede's American Successor:
Even our Lord and Saviour, Jesus®
quote:Having seen the movie I call Star Trek: Save the Whales, I guess we better not bother the fishies or mammals in the waters around the Bay Area (even if the aquariam used in that movie is actually in Monterey.)
quote:Thanks for saving the city from the wrath of the Mark. But may I introduce you to SF Science 101?
If you want, I could suggest where you could go to experience the warmth and hospitality available in San Francisco. Then you know with a sure and certain hope that it is Marin County than needs to drop into the Bay.
SF--------GG Bridge--------Marin
No Marin? Bridge fall down, go boom, splash. Bad vibes, man. No joy for the fishies in the deep blue sea.
Besides, all those Marin hot tubs would just bob around and clog the shipping lanes.
quote:Haven't actually read that one yet.
Originally posted by golden key:
Wood--
Wanted to tell you that I just finished reading "Foucault's Pendulum", and have a better understanding of what you've said on this thread, and why.
quote:Is there any particular logic bahind the numbering system then? (I mean, why the three digits?)
Originally posted by Tortuf:
markporter, here in the states our college courses tend to be numbered by how advanced they are. So, for instance, geology courses might be labeled: Introduction to Geology, Geology 101; Paleontology, Geology 202; Minerology, Geology 302; etc.
101 is used as an expression of being something basic.
quote:In this particular case it is also a clever pun since the Golden Gate Bridge, connecting SF with Lucasland, is part of US Highway 101. US-101 goes from Olympia, Washington (via the peninsula) to Los Angeles (maybe south, not sure about that).
Originally posted by Tortuf:
markporter, here in the states our college courses tend to be numbered by how advanced they are. So, for instance, geology courses might be labeled: Introduction to Geology, Geology 101; Paleontology, Geology 202; Minerology, Geology 302; etc.
101 is used as an expression of being something basic.
quote:At my university the three digits meant "upper division" - one or two digits was lower division (first two years' work).
Originally posted by markporter:
quote:Is there any particular logic bahind the numbering system then? (I mean, why the three digits?)
Originally posted by Tortuf:
markporter, here in the states our college courses tend to be numbered by how advanced they are. So, for instance, geology courses might be labeled: Introduction to Geology, Geology 101; Paleontology, Geology 202; Minerology, Geology 302; etc.
101 is used as an expression of being something basic.
quote:Were you employing a degree of irony which is not immediately obvious - or are you just appallingly smug?
Originally posted by daisymay:
They're mad, they're mad....
I'm glad I'm a Christian - they are all rational and sane, no odd beliefs or myths at all.
quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
Yep, Rudolf Steiner, former Theosophist and founder of the Anthroposophy movement.
I've got to say, Steiner is my Number 1 all time favourite Bonkers Esoteric Savant™
quote:
Originally posted by Manfred Faustus:
quote:Were you employing a degree of irony which is not immediately obvious - or are you just appallingly smug?
Originally posted by daisymay:
They're mad, they're mad....
I'm glad I'm a Christian - they are all rational and sane, no odd beliefs or myths at all.
quote:Well it did to me, but then I've read it. I wonder about the ending: it seemed to me not that They Were Coming To Get Him, but that he had become so immersed in his own construct, that he believed in a world in which that is what happens.
Originally posted by golden key:
Did my post on "Foucault's Pendulum" make sense?
quote:Perfect sense.
Originally posted by golden key:
Did my post on "Foucault's Pendulum" make sense? Was having a difficult day.
quote:(stage whisper) You...have...been...warned!
Originally posted by Wood:
quote:Perfect sense.
Originally posted by golden key:
Did my post on "Foucault's Pendulum" make sense? Was having a difficult day.
In fact, I now want to go read it. I'm sold.
quote:If you don't mind, I'll PM you about this when I get a chance. My answer would probably spoil the book for someone.
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:Well it did to me, but then I've read it. I wonder about the ending: it seemed to me not that They Were Coming To Get Him, but that he had become so immersed in his own construct, that he believed in a world in which that is what happens.
Originally posted by golden key:
Did my post on "Foucault's Pendulum" make sense?
