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Splodge
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Powell:
A---is it faith alone in Christ?B---is it faith plus works?
C---is it a system of works?
Faith in the God who has worked through his Christ.
Grace.
Faith will cause works, but works will not cause faith.
Not.
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Powell:
A---is it faith alone in Christ?B---is it faith plus works?
C---is it a system of works?
How about none of the above.
Jesus said, "If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments" (Matthew 19:17).
Someone doing works, or a system of works, might be doing them hypocritically. But keeping the commandments in your heart allows God to work within you so that you are spiritually reborn.
The exhortations to have faith imply that if you believe in God you will do as He commands. Otherwise you are foolish, as Jesus said.
You need to be purified so that you are fit for heaven, as it says in the purgatory heading. It takes a while, and it is not easy - but it is God who does it, not you.
That is how I see the Bible message.
quote:But if you read the rest of the story, you'll find that that was simply not enough.
Originally posted by Freddy:
Jesus said, "If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments" (Matthew 19:17).
quote:I think you might have to "unpack" that a little. What do you mean when you say "keep the commandments in your heart"?
Someone doing works, or a system of works, might be doing them hypocritically. But keeping the commandments in your heart allows God to work within you so that you are spiritually reborn.
I think the idea of purification was picked up by the Israelites from Zoastrianism (oh boy, more syncretism). How do you purify metal? You stick it in a fire, and all the impurities are burned away. If the metal is especially impure, you might be left with very little at all. So it might be (said the Babylonians) with the soul: on death, you pass through a purifying fire. What's left goes to heaven. If you're completely impure, none of you will make it.
Sorry, I'm rambling...
Jesus said that the two commandments which are most important are: Love God with all your heart etc etc; and Love your neighbour as yourself. Seeing as Christians are encouraged to see God in other people, I take that to be two sides of the same commandment: if you love God, you can't hate your neighbour; and vice versa. And if you truly love God, this will be reflected in your life for all to see.
So how about: "True love for God of the sort which leads to works." Faith leads to action. Works, when done not for one's own gain and/or recognition but for the true benefit of others, might be considered love for God -- even if the individual concerned might not think so.
quote:To me it is rather wrapped-up with the question of what is salvation. I don't think it is about 'getting to heaven' or avoiding 'hell' which all seems rather medieval.
Originally posted by Jim Powell:
A---is it faith alone in Christ?B---is it faith plus works?
C---is it a system of works?
:
I view salvation as more about being brought into 'eternal life' which starts now. The fruits of eternal life are growth in a relation with God, good works and hopefully strengthening faith. As is said at the administration of the eucharist at many (Anglican) churches - may the body of Christ KEEP you in eternal life - not get you into heaven.
I struggle with the 'faith alone' idea of salvation as it opposes the idea that I share with some others on this board that there is 'salvation' for others than only those that have faith in Christ. Though I can believe that no body is saved except through Christ - even if they personally do not have faith in him here and now.
I believe that the way in which this happens is different for everyone, but the common thread is that one - grace.
And Manx Taffy is right - it isn't about getting your card validated for heaven - it's about entering eternal life now.
The wonderful thing about grace, is that it frees us from worrying whether we are good enough for God (we're not, but he accepts us anyway). And with all that energy we save by not worrying about our salvation, and with the thankfulness we have in our hearts from knowing we are loved by God, we have the time and enery and motivation to overflow into love and compassion and service to our neighbour.
BarbaraG
quote:
The wonderful thing about grace, is that it frees us from worrying whether we are good enough for God (we're not, but he accepts us anyway). And with all that energy we save by not worrying about our salvation, and with the thankfulness we have in our hearts from knowing we are loved by God, we have the time and enery and motivation to overflow into love and compassion and service to our neighbour.
Yeah ...
TC...
I think Manx Taffy has a point in that our motivation can't be avoiding hell. This to me seems fear based rather that a desire to be near God and can't be helpful when sharing our faith.
My 2 pence worth anyway.
TC...
W
Christ said the two great commandments were to “love the Lord your God with all your heart and mind” and “to love your neighbour as yourself”.
If you love God with your Heart then you’ll be open to him working within you to change you and make you more like Him.
If you love God with your Mind then you’ll have a faith that is capable of engaging with others and listening and learning from them.
If you love your neighbour as yourself there will be a visible difference in your attitudes to others, the environment, the poor etc.
To me, you need all three but it’s a long process – sometimes painful and sometimes fun – but always worth it. The Christian that I am now is different to the one I was when I got saved is different to the one I will be in the future.
Jim, you haven’t said what you think. – A or B or C or what?!
Tubbs
quote:
Originally posted by Wibblethorpe:
Repentance proved by deeds.
W
I change my vote. I'm with Wib. After all, that is what the disciples were sent out to preach in Luke and Matthew.
)Repentence is the acceptence of that grace.
"A person is justified by works, and not by faith alone." James 2:24
Typical of this wayward postmodern generation.
Eph. 2:8&9 declares that we are saved by our faith & not works.
John 3:15 states that if a person simply believes in Jesus Christ, they are saved.
John 6:47 declares that belief in Jesus Christ is all that is required for eternal life.
Good works are a bye-product of slavation, not a requirement.
Faith in Jesus Christ is the only requirement for salvation.
Jim - how will you know when all who wish to reply have done so?
Tony
There is a tension here. The answer is more complex than Jim's A B C.
All the best Jim Powell
but what does this mean? is there a minimum knowledge about the mechanism by which Christ saves us that we need to understand or assent to? Does that mean those who can't understand such a (hypothetical) minimum knowledge can't be saved?
Alan
[typo corrected]
[ 21 June 2001: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]
d... all of the above.
because they are all linked inextricably.
I sincerely hope that Jim's next post will interact in some meaningful way with the responses he's received. Otherwise he will be following Max right out the door.
Come on Jim …!
I think the rest of us should all shut up and listen to the sermon he has to preach and receive the blessings he has been sent to deliver.
In fact we should rename the whole thing The Ship of Jim Powell.
We could have Gadgets for Jim Powell, the Jim Powell Zone, Urban Jim Powells, Mystery Jim Powell...
quote:
Originally posted by Dyfrig:
Of course, the one time when Jesus was actually asked this question, he replied, "Sell everything you have and go and give it to the poor". Hmm....
No, He said, "Keep the commandments." The man asked which ones and Jesus responded specifying six of the ten commandments. When the man said that he had done these, that is when Jesus said to sell everything (Matthew 19.16-22).
An obvious reference, I think, to laying up for yourself treasure in heaven (Matthew 6.19).
quote:
Originally posted by Charles:
This question has been asked so often by Jim and others on this web site and on the Church Net that it seems somewhat superfluous to be asking it again.
Yes but it is interesting for us who are new.
Not that I don't know what Jim's "correct" answer is.
I am most interested in the mechanism of salvation. Do people really accept the vicarious atonement? It seems so contrary to what Jesus Himself actually taught.
When the rich young ruler asked Jesus what he could do to obtain eternal life, Jesus basically told him to be perfect & sinless. The rich man & people today misconstrue this statement into thinking they can go about setting their own righteousness by lying to themselves into thinking they can actually do this. The rich ruler wasn't in the repentant frame of mind when he confronted Jesus, the rich ruler was seeking something that he alone could do to gain acceptance from God. The rich ruler needed to change his mind & realize he was helpless & needed a redeemer. Since noone can keep the commandments perfectly, we have to rely (trust) in the One who did accomplish this, Jesus Christ. By trusting in Christ, we swap our righteousness (which is unacceptable to God) for Christ's righteousness.
The book of James was written to the 12 scattered tribes of Israel. There were many new Christians among these tribes. James was encouraging these disillusioned, new Christians to be happy to be 'tested' in their new faith. Many of the new Christians had become disheartened in their new faith because of their failure to pass the tests and as a result their faith was 'dead'.
These 'dead faith' Christians weren't 'lost' because their faith was now dead. They were just confused & scared and falling for all sorts of false doctrines.
James was simply telling the Christian Jews to pass their tests of faith, thus there faith would grow and their faith would in turn be made perfect. They would then be fruitful Christians and be able to be used of the Lord.
All Christians face this test everday of their lives. Will we pass the faith tests or not? That is the question.
You all said grace which is true,but this grace is accepted by faith alone in Christ alone.
The book of James was written to the brethern therefore
does not talk of salvation ,but the believers way of life.
Calling Jesus lord is not the way of salvation,religious people do this,and are not saved(if they have not just believed in Christ's completed work of the cross.
All the best Jim.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly:
I pose the question ...who has kept all the commandments perfectly?
Who said anything about keeping them all perfectly? It is not an all-or-nothing proposition.
No one of their own power can keep any commandment. But God helps you to turn away from sin, if you let Him - because the power is in Him.
The alternative is that the Christian need not worry about keeping the commandments, since his salvation does not depend on this.
Now we choose to believe or not.
All the best Jim.
A All the best Jim.
Of course, you can only receive this grace by being properly accepted by baptism into the holy, apostolic, catholic church.
Avoid Hell gain Heaven,perhaps the carrot and stick.By grace through faith alone in Christ alone.
All the best Jim
In order for man to be in Heaven with God, he must have God's perfection. Man is not perfect like God, man is imperfect and inherently evil. Man has proven his wickedness by his inability to keep the commandments & laws set forth by a Just & Holy God.
Man needs a mediator. A "go-between"...that mediator is Jesus Christ, who, being the only God-Man, is equal to God & man. By faith in the One Man who was perfect & kept every point of the law, we receive His righteousness.
We do not keep our salvation by trying to keep the commandments after we believe in Christ, Christ has already finished the work of salvation on His own at the Cross, without any help from man.
I do not agree with your statement Freddy about the commandments not being an all or nothing deal. The Bible states that if a person breaks any point of the law, he/she has broken all of the law.
Had Christ commited just 1 sin, any sin, our salvation would have been lost. If Adam had never sinned in the garden, he & Eve would still be there today, in perfect environment & fellowship with God.
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Powell:
Wibblethorpe.
Repent means to change ones mind about Christ and believe in him,hopefully deeds will follow.
All the best Jim.
Hopefully? Doesn't the Bible say definitely - the proof that the repentance is real?
W
I know Catholics who are saved,and some that are not {sadly to say}as in all churchs.
All the best Jim 
I fully accept Ephesians vv8-9 - but why stop there, when verse 10 goes on to talk about the good works that God has prepared in advance for us to do. Surely that is as relevant to this thread as saving faith?
I can't fault Kelly's posts either - so why do you think Kelly will have to walk the plank?
YIC
Tony
quote:
or... live as the unsaved does(carnality)
It's life Jim, but not as we know it...
(sorry)
Surely the proof of whether you're a Christian or not is whether it makes any difference to how you live... isn't it?
That's what Jesus, Paul and James seemed to think anyway.
W
The only issue is Faith in Christ,and some believed as children,and have no understanding that they are saved ,because of a lack of knowledge of the plan of God.
I have asked a bunch of people are you Christian? and they say no,But then they tell me that they do believe in Christ!
They do not know they are saved amazing aint it
All the best Jim Powell.
In the Red corner, live from the ship of fools bulletin board, we have... Jim...
quote:
The only issue is Faith in Christ
In the Blue corner, live... OK... not that live... from Agrippa's palace (Acts 26) we have...The Apostle Paul...
quote:
I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.
Take your pick.
W
Wibblethorpe, I think you might be missing Jim's point? The deeds & works that Paul & James refer to are evidence of a perfect, alive, & working faith. This 'working faith' is one that produces results and fruit. This is the type of faith that results after saving faith. This 'perfect faith' is one that all Christians should strive for. But be patient, it doesn't happen overnight.
Let's face it; a brand new Christian doesn't possess the spiritual knowledge to produce fruit 'right off the bat'. This knowledge takes time to hone through trial & error & spiritual testing.
If a Christian is lazy or doesn't submit to God's will in their life, their faith won't grow & is dead. But these Chrisitans still have eternal life, because they trusted in Christ for their salvation.
Thank you,
Kelly
So this was a test was it? Fine, I can live with that.
Jim, what does "believing in Christ" mean, exactly? Please tell me, I'm dying to know.
Is this an exam?
What was the question?
What is the way of salvation
A---is it faith alone in Christ?
B---is it faith plus works?
C---is it a system of works?
Hmmmmm....
Can I look at what you put?
Hold it this is a trick question isn't it?
I choose...
D---Jesus!
And the question should be Who is the way of salvation!
Did I win?
Do I get a gold star?
Can I go to heaven please sir?
Sir!?
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Powell:
I know Catholics who are saved,and some that are not {sadly to say}as in all churchs.
Jim
If I send you a short letter defining my beliefs and enclose a stamp addressed envolope please can you tell me if I am SAVED.
I was going to trust on the mercy of God and the benefit's of Christ's passion - but it would be nice to know right now and cut out all the hassle.
Although not a Catholic myself, I too would appreciate confirmation that I am saved.
I hadn't realised that Jim had placed a towel on the Judgement Seat!
YIC
Tony
I see the light! It is as if scales have fallen from my eyes.
Bless you, Jim Powell!
Till now I always assumed that ignoring vast tracts of the Bible to prop up a half-baked theology was the way to blinkered ignorance and embarrassing drivel, but now I see that it is the only path to truth.
I believe!
Tell me, O humbly great teacher, what do I do now? Oh no, I don't have to do anything - you already said that.
I think I'll go and have a bath. Anyone up for a spot of fornication later?
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Powell:
TC, Barbara.Avoid Hell gain Heaven,perhaps the carrot and stick.By grace through faith alone in Christ alone.
All the best Jim
Jim,
I am a little puzzled by this response. Are you hereby correcting what you perceive to be lacking in my reply? Have I just scraped a pass, and you are trying to get me up to a B+? Or am I, in your opinion, short of the minimum required for salvation?
Not that it makes any difference, of course, because it's God's business, not yours.
Ugh! I get the feeling that I'm being dictated to. I thought this was a forum for debate, not for pontification.
BarbaraG
The preacher said, "No, get saved, and then let God work into your life to change you."
I think Jim's being rather unfairly stigmatised here. I think he's right to say that the faith comes first. Well, actually, the grace comes first. Then the faith is you accepting the grace. But I don't think you lose the grace just because you sin afterwards. We all do that; but we say "sorry" and we try to do better. Of course faith leads to works; but it doesn't lead to perfection.
As the song says, "I fall down, I get up again, ain't nothing going to get me down..."
I'm sorry but I don't worry about being 'saved' or not.
DavidG
quote:
Originally posted by SteveTom:
Till now I always assumed that ignoring vast tracts of the Bible to prop up a half-baked theology was the way to blinkered ignorance and embarrassing drivel...
Here are the problems with this theology that I count:
1. It divides God into three Gods.
2. It turns God the Father into a monster, satisfied only by the death of His Son.
3. It makes justice a system of payment of debts by blood.
4. It nullifies the commandments of God.
5. It divides religion from life, making repentance and the living of a good life unnecessary.
6. It condemns everyone who, through no fault of their own, is unaware of Christ.
7. It ignores or denies virtually everything Jesus said about salvation.
Have I missed anything?
Can great questions of faith – such as the faith & works debate – be reduced to simple A B or C please tick here type answers? Is there are right or wrong answer to such questions?
IMHO, the answer to that is
quote:
If God intended us to pickle our brains and put them aside, if he hadn’t wanted us to struggle with the great issues of human history and culture, then he wouldn’t have sent us a Middle Eastern book spanning many centuries and cultures – he’d have sent us a small tract. John Smith – Australian bloke with a BIG bike
Tubbs
quote:
Agreed,and God is fair and just al those who do not reach accountability go to heaven.
Jim, can you please, please, please explain to me what you mean by your statement above as I am baffled.
TC...
Tell me. Am I saved?
Yes or no.
(BTW, Stop wishing yourself "All the Best" at the end of every post."
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly:
I do not agree with your statement Freddy about the commandments not being an all or nothing deal. The Bible states that if a person breaks any point of the law, he/she has broken all of the law.
Whosoever shall break the least of these commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of the heavens; but whosoever doeth and teacheth them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of the heavens (Matt. 5:19).
So you are saying that because of Christ it is OK to break them, and to teach that this is the way of salvation?
Jesus' meaning is that a person who believes that it is not wrong to steal and sets about a life of crime, breaks not only the commandment about stealing but others as well, because they are all connected together. Conversely, a person seeking to turn away from one evil is also turning away from them all - because all good things are connected as well.
No one can do good or turn away from evil by their own power. All power is in God. But He gives you that power insofar as you seek it from Him.
Jim, I am in all likelihood much closer to you in terms of doctrine than a lot of our fellow believerswriting on these boards. You need to understand that in terms of what I am going to say so that you do not casually write me off as one of the liberals you rate so poorly.
The issues of salvation are INEXTRICABLY interlinked, as other writers in this thread have pointed out. If you have believed in the atoning work of Jesus and repented it must inevitably follow that the believer will bring forth "works" in accordance with repentance. To make "faith" alone the marker for judgement of someone's status is questionable. If there is no evidence of a changed life I think it is reasonable to have some doubts about the authenticity of their repentance and the nature of their faith. Faith is not just mental assent to the truth of some doctrine. The truth has to outwork into real life.
Having said that I would suggest we are on dodgy ground if we feel we are very sure about who is "in" and who is "out" on the basis of our own assessment. The parable of the sower may suggest that at various periods someone may bear fruit but not continue (I accept this could be viewed as distinct from "salvation").
Jesus' illustrations of wheat and tares growing together similarly suggests the difficulty of separating the two until the end of the age, as does the parable of the dragnet and the sorting of fish. As cited elsewhere, the parable of the sheep and goats should give us pause for thought. I am VERY reluctant to put myself in the place of making absolute assessments about someone's ultimate salvation - because God sees and I don't.
I have known people who seem to have an initial burst of enthusiasm and appear to "bear fruit" but fall away and end up vehemently opposed to God until they die. I have equally known people who appear to fall away and live very "unrepentant" lifestyles for long periods but who return to God at a later stage.
It would be relatively easy to make a superficial judgement about these people based on outward apprearances - but I have little confidence that I would be making a right one. And frankly, it's none of my business. I readily acknowlegdge the fact that I am myself a sinner who has fallen on the mercy and grace of God and know how loving, patient, long-suffering and unreasonably generous He is to me - so I would seek to extend the same amount of grace to other people around me.
Whether I think they are "saved" or not, wheher they share the same doctrine with me or not. We are all people with a tendency to goof up and understand partially, and we are ALL in need of the grace of God.
Especially when we think we've got all the answers.
Jim, I strongly urge you to question whether your reason for posting on these boards is because you are motivated by love for the people with whom you can clearly see you disagree doctrinally - that you love people because GOD loves people - or because you want to hammer a bunch of (as you might see them) woofty liberal heretics for their errors.
If all you are concerned about is "the truth" of scripture as you understand it you will conduct yourself in the spirit of the pharisee who exalts correctness in doctrine above love for God and people. Believe me I know, because I've been guilty of exactly this myself. I have in the past used my theological "correctness" as a weapon with which to destroy people, belittle their standing with God, to cast judgement and promote division. I did not love or care about the people on the end of my judgements, they were just "wrong" and needed to be corrected. What arrogance and shallowness of soul!
I am so thankful that John describes Jesus as full of grace and truth, not just full of truth. Truth alone will only kill people. It requires grace to handle truth in a way which is able to encourage, teach, correct and promote the genuine well-being of another person.
"Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. the man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know."
I may be guilty of ascribing wrong motivations to you in the way you are using these boards Jim. If that is so then I apologise - however, it does appear that you are really just trying to draw people out so you can then prove that they are wrong, and you seem to do so with little humility or love for the people concerned.
If correct understanding of what the Bible means and purity of doctrine were essential for us to attain salvation there is not one person in human history apart from Jesus who would be "in" - so don't behave as though it is only those who agree with you who are correct. If you approached discussion with a little humility you might learn some serious lessons in discipleship from some of these "liberals", even if aspects of their doctrine outrage you.
I am serious!
I guarantee that some of the people with whom you disagree will be far advanced in their love of God and service for His Kingdom in comparison to many solid evangelical "bible believing " Christians.
The church together displays the manifold wisdom of God, and no one facet of the church has a monopoly on truth, understanding or discipleship. This is not to say that truth is unimportant, but that most of us are not as right as we think we are.
God loves the world and the sinful, messed up people in it. He loves the church with the sinful messed up people in it. The bottom line is God LOVES PEOPLE, and he LIKES hanging around with sinners. If I imagine I will advance the Kingdom if I don't love people, then I doubt much of any value is ever going to happen through what I do.
Tony
that's one of the best things I've seen posted on these boards in a long time. Spot on.
Alan
)I found this site a while ago and was so pleased to find a broad Christian site where really matters of faith are discussed so openly and intelligently. It has really made me think more deeply about some of my own views and I have particularly enjoyed getting a deeper understanding of the thoughtful views of people from different wings of the church to myself.
I hope we manage to keep-up this approach and does not degenerate into pointless arguement from people in various camps who have no intention of listening to and reflecting on the thoughts of fellow travellers on the journey.
If someone tells me that they reject believing in Christ then I assume that they are not saved.
As for people asking me who is saved,my answer is I dont have a clue,this is something everyone decides for themselves.
I cant guess what decisions people make,I will not attempt to guess what people think.After if they dont know for themselves what they think how can I know?
Can we judge by behaviour who is a Christian or not? I dont see how!
Ephesians2:8and 9 makes it clear to me .
Good question about my motive,I ask that question of myself.
Answer if I could encourage just one Christian to know and love God better then my time will be well spent.
If there happened to be just one unbeliever who realised that he needed Christ that would wonderful.
All the best Jim.
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Powell:
Good question about my motive,I ask that question of myself.
Answer if I could encourage just one Christian to know and love God better then my time will be well spent.
If there happened to be just one unbeliever who realised that he needed Christ that would wonderful.
All the best Jim.
Sounds like a crusade to me.
Jim,
I will not reply to any more of your threads. You are intellectually dishonest.
I do not recall posting Mat. 5:19 as a reference to my statement about the law being an all or nothing deal. As a matter of fact, I know for certain that I didn't use that passage for a basis of my debate.
The passage that sustains my position about the law being all or nothing is found in James 2:10...For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point he is guilty of all.
That is a pretty clear statment in James.
Freddy, if you want to debate, that's fine. But don't put words in my mouth that I never uttered then go to great lengths to prove me wrong. You are the one who posted the scripture in Mat. 5:19, not me. If you want to debate with yourself, go ahead, because that is what you did.
1John3:21 Beloved if our heart does not condemn us we have confidence before God.
22, and whatever we ask we receive from him,because we keep his commandments and do the things that are pleasing in his eyes.
23, And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another,just as he commanded us.
All the best Jim.
We have one chicken named Jim. For some reason, all the other chickens have made their mind up concering Jim's motives, faith, ect. & have decided to peck him to death. What all of the other chickens don't realize is that they are all guilty of the same thing they are accusing Jim of .....being judgemental.
I thought this forum was for debate about Biblical subjects & not attacking specific individuals?
I do agree though, Jim has been somewhat judgemental concerning the salvation of some posters, but not directly. The good thing about it, is that Jim has used Biblical passages to come to his conclusions concerning salvation of others. And ya know what?....we all do that in some form or another, everyday. We all are guilty of seeing how others' beliefs stack up to our own.
If Jim is trying to set himself up as the judge, jury & executioner, then he should be set straight, but I don't take him that way.
Thank you,
Kelly
quote:
Originally posted by Jim Powell:
Pete. If someone tells me that they have believed in Christ as the only way of salvation,then I accept that they are telling me the truth.
I am happy to know, then, that I am saved. I absolutely believe in Christ as the only way of salvation.
But I don't think that I see it the way Jim does. His theology, I believe, does not originate in Christ or Paul, but in St. Anselm.
Christ is the only way of salvation because unless people live as He taught they cannot be saved.
Christ is the only way of salvation because if God had not descended and taken on a human form as the Christ, to defeat the power of hell, no one could have been saved.
Christ is the only way of salvation because if He had not come to teach the way of salvation directly from God, then no one could be saved.
This is the salvation that Christ brought, and this is what is meant by the grace of God that is the source of all salvation. Our own efforts amount to nothing - it is all through God's grace, which gives us the strength to believe in Him and do as He teaches.
But if we do not do as He teaches we are not saved.
I think that this is a more biblically based understanding than the idea of salvation by faith alone.
So what are the shortcomings of this approach?
Personally, I wouldn't do it if I were you. I'd stay in your holy huddle with the rest of the righteous, safe and warm in the arms of certainty. After all, the real world's a dangerous place. People keep having opinions of their own, disagreeing with your interpretation. Can't have that.
If the work of our salvation was finished 2000 years ago then thankfully we dont need to add anything to this completed work.
When we add to the work of the cross we are saying that the cross was not sufficient for our salvation,which means we have not trusted in Christs work for our salvation.
All the best Jim.
You have been warned, more than once, to cut it with the crusading. Changing your method doesn't change your purpose, and to be honest I'm more than a bit irritated that you think we are too stupid to realize this. I told you that these people are not conversion fodder, and I meant it. You told me (and the board) that you knew you didn't fit in here, that you'd never accept this "liberal garbage", that you're not here to learn, and yet you've stayed. I've tolerated it up 'til now, because you seemed to back away from your hard-line stance. Watching your non-interactions on this thread, however, leads me to believe that I was right in the beginning.
I really don't like it when people screw with the board like this. I dislike it even more when I've given people leeway (against my better judgment) and they take advantage of it.
Go find another group of heathens to save. You're done with this one.
Erin
The shortcomings of your approach is that it is contradictory.
You stated in one breath that all is grace & that our efforts amount to nothing. In the next breath you said if we didn't *do* as Christ teaches that we aren't saved.
Can you not see the contradiction you made?
Salvation is either all grace or not. Grace is a gift. If we are expected to *do* something to earn grace, then it is no longer a gift.
I go to work to *do* something to *earn* money. But at christmas or birthdays, I don't work for the gifts my friends & family give to me, they are simply gifts.
To take the Bible seriously - as many people here want to do - we need to find an understanding that embraces both poles.... because THEY ARE BOTH THERE IN THE BIBLE!!!
So I fall back on saying that it's grace. I trust Jesus, when he said that all who believe in him will be saved. I take him seriously when he talked about the sheep and the goats... and from day to day I do my best to follow him, trusting that his grace is sufficient to compensate for my failures.
And I get riled when people bang on about EITHER faith alone, OR works alone, because it seems to me that neither tells the whole story, and I'm waiting to hear from somebody who can. Until then, it's a mystery I just live with.
BarbaraG
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly:
Freddy, You stated in one breath that all is grace & that our efforts amount to nothing. In the next breath you said if we didn't *do* as Christ teaches that we aren't saved. Can you not see the contradiction you made?
Yes, I see that this is a contradiction. I just think that it is a contradiction that everyone lives with all the time.
Even if you acknowledge that all good comes from God, as well as all effort, and even life itself, it still FEELS as if it is your effort, your good, and your life. It's a contradiction, but how do you get away from it?
If you are saved, and if good works flow naturally from salvation, does that mean that no effort whatsoever is required to get you out of bed and put on a smiley face for your job? No, it still takes effort - but the power is from God.
On the other hand, once you become accustomed to a life of kindness and love for others, and to refraining from anger, lust, pride, etc. it becomes easier and easier. That is what it is to be born again.
I recognize the contradiction. So how do you explain the fact that it still feels like effort, even after you have accepted Jesus?
quote:
Originally posted by BarbaraG:
And I get riled when people bang on about EITHER faith alone, OR works alone, because it seems to me that neither tells the whole story, and I'm waiting to hear from somebody who can.
I'm with you there.
The Bible definitely preaches both, by my reading.
The way I reconcile it is in two ways. Partly it is to think that when the Bible speaks of faith it is speaking about a genuine belief of the mind and heart that includes a willingness to obey God. The other part is to recognize that God has all power, so of course our own efforts are in vain - and it is only by trusting in Him that we can change.
So we are saved by trusting in God as He has shown Himself to us in Jesus, and by doing as He teaches us. You can't separate the two.
That has helped me, but I admit that it is hard to keep it all straight and I may not have it right.
What I am sure of is that the solution is in God's Word.
Here is my understanding of your question about effort. I acknowledge that my understanding may be different from your or other persons' beliefs, but hey, we all have our freedom, don't we?
We worship God in spirit & truth. So, our knowledge of God and His ways must come via the spirit, not the physical. Since we cannot see our spirit or any spirits in our physical state, we have to come to the conclusion that our learning of Christ cannot be a physical process, it must be a mental undertaking. What we think is what we say, do, treat others ect.
To *do* the things that Christ encourages us to do, we must first have our mental attitude in order. For us to be able to act like Christ, we must 1st think like Christ.
So, how do we begin to think like Christ? The Bible is our guide. We must have a good understanding of God's word. When we replace our depraved thought process with the thinking of Christ, it is no *effort* at all to *do* & *act* as Christ, it's automatic.
We are told to put on the new man, & to be transformed by renewing our minds. When we obey these commanments, the fruit of the spirit & the good works are an automatic bye-product & require no effort.
Where the effort is a factor is the constant struggle to humble ourselves to gain God's knowledge through good Bible study. We all know that the devil tries (and succeeds) to distract us by any & all means possible from being the servant that God wants us to be.
We shouldn't be putting the cart before the horse. We do not need to be trying to gain God's approval or acceptance by physical works. We must 1st take the time to learn how to please God in the spirit. The physical deeds come later, and are irrelevant to our salvation.
An unbeliever cannot do anything to please God, because the unbeliever has no spiritual relationship to God. God must be worshipped in spirit. The believer in Jesus Christ has the rapport (spiritual relationship) with God to please Him. But 1st, he/she must know how to please, when we have the thinking of Christ we indeed please God.
Sorry if this has been said above already.
I must check!
The way of salvation is not how we get salvation. That's been got for ALL humanity, for all of creation for all time.
At least in this universe ...
Whether we know about it or even want it.
Obviously very few won't want it, very few will reject it in the resurrection, but the possibility for that first and last exercise of freewill (otherwise a non-Biblical Christian myth) has to be acknowledged - that some will be adversarial to love, have too much sympathy for the Devil.
What I fear is that some of us will be embittered by God's grace, will go off him for melting the hearts of the vast majority of non-Christian humanity after their deaths.
The vast majority of the resurrected will want to stay in Paradise with the thief on the cross, the irrelevant transition of death can't possibly disqualify them.
The way of salvation is what we do with what we know.
And some of us don't know much ...
Universal salvation?
Christ has indeed provided salvation for ALL humanity. Salvation does depend on what each human thinks of Christ. This I agree with.
But, what are you talking about when you say "after the resurrection"?
The Bible decalres, in many passages about the dead being in Hell.
If someone rejects the gracious offering of Slavation provided by Jesus Christ on the Cross, by not trusting Jesus, they are sent to Hell after their death, because the unholy cannot have fellowship with the Holy in eternity.
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly:
We must 1st take the time to learn how to please God in the spirit. The physical deeds come later, and are irrelevant to our salvation.
I agree that we need to first take time to learn. But if we can't do anything how can we even do that? Isn't that one of the irrelevant good deeds?
How is it possible that the decision to lie, cheat, mistreat others, or be a slacker at work is irrelevant to your spiritual life?
Why not obey Jesus? How could disobeying Him be unimportant?
But I grant that you need to first learn His will.
G-d has answered prayers in my life many times.
G-d has healed a cousin of mine of something medicine could not - through prayer.
I am sometimes "filled" with the presence of G-d while in prayer.
Why should I have any doubt of my salvation if G-d is interacting with me on a personal level?
quote:
Originally posted by Will:
Why should I have any doubt of my salvation if G-d is interacting with me on a personal level?
I think the question is whether or not you love the things of heaven. In heaven people love God and other people. The joy of their life is in serving others. They do not love adultery, theft, lying, etc. or place their happiness in self-aggrandisement, honors, material possessions.
Is this your idea of happiness?
The question is, how do you know for sure? It is not easy to know yourself, or to be sure of what you really want.
But the signs that you have mentioned sure sound good to me. I have very much enjoyed your posts on this websites.
It seems as though we have somehow gotten off of the subject, which is salvation, & what it takes to be saved.
I, by no means, meant to insinuate that lieing, cheating & stealing didn't have anything to do with our spiritual life. And I don't think I did insinuate that either. Our physical behaviour is a reflection of how much of Christ's thinking we have learned.
The decision to believe in Christ is all that is required for salvation. The constant struggle to live the christian life, and continue to learn all we can about Christ, so that we may produce good works and be a useful servant involves many decisions.
Many people get confused and put the cart before the horse by trying to act in a good way, and do certain good things & substitute their good works for trusting in Christ and they are never saved because they trusted in their own goodness and not Christ's sacrifice.
Christians are commanded to do good works, I agree, but we aren't commanded to do good works for salvation or to keep our salvation. We believe in Christ for eternal life.
Will,
May I ask how you know when you are filled with the presence of God when you pray? Do you feel a certain way or something?
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly:
[QB]Freddy,Many people get confused and put the cart before the horse by trying to act in a good way, and do certain good things & substitute their good works for trusting in Christ and they are never saved because they trusted in their own goodness and not Christ's sacrifice.
Christians are commanded to do good works, I agree, but we aren't commanded to do good works for salvation or to keep our salvation. We believe in Christ for eternal life.
QB]
Kelly,
Jim's original question (and previous threads) made the unspoken assumption that most or all Christians other than those who are members of his church believe that they are saved by works. When they pointed out that this was not the case, he didn't believe them. That it what got up everyone's nose.
My analysis is that he tried to compartmentalise the faith into a sort of painting-by-numbers thing, where God could be understood so long as one's Bible doctrine was sound. That can so easily lead to pride - and a desire to put everyone else right, according to our own understanding.
I try to remember that 'God's thoughts are higher than my thoughts' and, as the Bible says, I will only see 'as through a glass darkly' while I remain on Earth. And so I read and learn, and post when I think I have something to contribute. And hopefully have sufficient humility to accept that on occasions I may be wrong.
YIC
Tony
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly:
Many people get confused and put the cart before the horse by trying to act in a good way, and do certain good things & substitute their good works for trusting in Christ and they are never saved because they trusted in their own goodness...
I'm with you there, Kel. No one can trust in their own goodness, because only God is good.
quote:
Originally posted by Will:G-d has answered prayers in my life many times.
G-d has healed a cousin of mine of something medicine could not - through prayer.
I am sometimes "filled" with the presence of G-d while in prayer.
Why should I have any doubt of my salvation if G-d is interacting with me on a personal level?
I don't think there's any reason to doubt your salvation. It's real simple to me: God made covenant with his chosen people, you're one of them, God keeps his promises. QED
god loves mankind. always has, always will.
