quote:

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Under the lengthening shadow of Ibsen, an argument arose whether it was not a very nice thing to murder one's self. Grave moderns told us that we must not even say "poor fellow," of a man who had blown his brains out, since he was an enviable person, and had only blown them out because of their exceptional excellence. Mr. William Archer even suggested that in the golden age there would be penny-in-the-slot machines, by which a man could kill himself for a penny. In all this I found myself utterly hostile to many who called themselves liberal and humane. Not only is suicide a sin, it is the sin. It is the ultimate and absolute evil, the refusal to take an interest in existence; the refusal to take the oath of loyalty to life. The man who kills a man, kills a man. The man who kills himself, kills all men; as far as he is concerned he wipes out the world. His act is worse (symbolically considered) than any rape or dynamite outrage. For it destroys all buildings: it insults all women. The thief is satisfied with diamonds; but the suicide is not: that is his crime. He cannot be bribed, even by the blazing stones of the Celestial City. The thief compliments the things he steals, if not the owner of them. But the suicide insults everything on earth by not stealing it. He defiles every flower by refusing to live for its sake. There is not a tiny creature in the cosmos at whom his death is not a sneer. When a man hangs himself on a tree, the leaves might fall off in anger and the birds fly away in fury: for each has received a personal affront. Of course there may be pathetic emotional excuses for the act. There often are for rape, and there almost always are for dynamite. But if it comes to clear ideas and the intelligent meaning of things, then there is much more rational and philosophic truth in the burial at the cross-roads and the stake driven through the body, than in Mr. Archer's suicidal automatic machines. There is a meaning in burying the suicide apart. The man's crime is different from other crimes -- for it makes even crimes impossible.

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(Copyright not an issue.)
 

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Posted by Scot (# 2095) on :
 
HOSTING

This is obviously a painful topic for many people. Please be sensitive in your comments.

Before you post any personal history or experiences, please take a moment to read the Ship's policy on the posting of sucidal ideations (click here). If you aren't sure whether your post would be appropriate, please PM one of the hosts or admins before posting.

Thanks for you help.

scot
Purgatory Host
 

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Posted by thegreent (# 3571) on :
 
JLs quote
 

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Posted by Louise (# 30) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by thegreent:
JLs quote

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quote:

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SUICIDE
Traditionally the Christian Churches were very severe on suicides and attempted suicides, refusing the former burial in consecrated ground, since it was argued that the person who committed suicide was expressing his or her total lack of faith in God.

Nowadays, Christians generally recognise that suicide is not so much a deliberate rejection of life as an expression of dissatisfaction with the particular life the person is leading, and in many cases is a cry for help. To take your life is obviously a muddled and unsatisfactory way of responding to an unsatisfactory personal state of affairs, but seeing things in this way has led Christians to treat suicides and potential suicides as they would treat people who were depressed or sick in other ways, ie by seeking to help them where possible, and certainly not to engage in moral condemnation of them. This shift in attitude led this Board to produce Ought Suicide to be a Crime? And to press the Government to change the law so that suicide should no longer be treated as a crime. This change came about in 1961.

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quote:

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M) Suicide-We believe that suicide is not the way a human life should end. The church has an obligation to see that all persons have access to needed pastoral and medical care and therapy in those circumstances that lead to loss of self-worth, or suicidal despair, and/or the desire to seek physician assisted suicide. We encourage the church to provide education to address the biblical, theological, social and ethical issues related to suicide, including United Methodist theological seminary courses focusing on issues of suicide.

A Christian perspective on suicide begins with an affirmation of faith that nothing, including suicide, separates us from the love of God. (Romans 8:38-39). Therefore, we deplore the condemnation of people who take their own lives, and we consider unjust the stigma that so often falls on surviving family and friends.

We encourage pastors to address this issue through preaching and teaching. We urge pastors to provide pastoral care to attempters, survivors, and their families, and to those families who have lost loved ones to suicide, seeking always to remove the oppressive stigma around suicide. The church does not endorse the enlistment of medical providers, who are charged to cure and to care, to assist people in taking their own lives.

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quote:

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Suicide testifies to life's tragic brokenness. We believe that life is God's good and precious gift to us, and yet life for us ourselves and others sometimes appears to be hell, a torment without hope. When we would prefer to ignore, reject, or shy away from those who despair of life, we need to recall what we have heard: God's boundless love in Jesus Christ will leave no one alone and abandoned. We who lean on God's love to live are called to "bear one another's burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ" (Galatians 6:2). Our efforts to prevent suicide grow out of our obligation to protect and promote life, our hope in God amid suffering and adversity, and our love for our troubled neighbor.

Increasingly, suicide is being viewed as a serious and preventable public health problem. 2 Suicide and its prevention are complex and multi-dimensional and need to be approached openly and comprehensively. Suicide prevention requires concerted and collaborative efforts from all sectors of society. Let us in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America contribute to these efforts. With this message, the Church Council encourages members, congregations, and affiliated institutions to learn more about suicide and its prevention in their communities, to ask what they can do, and to work with others to prevent suicide.
...
Punitive attitudes form another obstacle to suicide prevention. These attitudes are eager to punish suicidal behavior and often blame the living for suicidal deaths. They create an environment in which suicidal behavior is concealed and persons with suicidal thoughts are reluctant to talk. Punitive attitudes are a carry over from the time when suicide was considered a crime and an unpardonable sin, and when those who completed suicide were denied Christian burial.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad:
I found the following section of G.K. Chesterton's Orthodoxy a great help in appreciating the Catholic line on suicide: ...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad but written by chesterton:
Not only is suicide a sin, it is the sin. It is the ultimate and absolute evil,

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(Copyright not an issue.)

Why is this helpful JL?

[fixed code]

[ 26. May 2003, 22:22: Message edited by: Scot ]
 

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Posted by Ham'n'Eggs (# 629) on :
 
I rather suspect the SBC sex position to be derived from that on mission.
 

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Posted by Jesuitical Lad (# 2575) on :
 
Is this thread "Theological Standpoint On Suicide", or is it "Counselling For Those Contemplating Suicide"? I was under the impression it was the former, and that the latter was no longer considered within the remit of the Ship.

I find Chesterton's quote helpful in explaining the reasons for Catholicism's theological standpoint on suicide. I would not consider it a useful quote to pass to those contemplating suicide.

I hope this clarifies any "issues" other posters may have with my post.
 

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Posted by Ham'n'Eggs (# 629) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Louise:

quote:

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Originally posted by thegreent:
JLs quote

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You can always take other posters to Hell, if you think they're being insensitive idiots.

Someone could start a Hell thread in which we could all compete to see who could post the most insensitive and offensive quote of the year - but then how could we hope to match a masterpiece like the one above?

L.

[posting as shipmate!]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ham'n'Eggs:
I'm sorry Louise, but I can't see how this constitutes reasoned debate. Any chance that you could enlighten me?

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quote:

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I rather suspect the SBC sex position to be derived from that on mission.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Scot:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ham'n'Eggs:
I'm sorry Louise, but I can't see how this constitutes reasoned debate. Any chance that you could enlighten me?

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It constitutes reasoned debate in the same way that this does:

quote:

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I rather suspect the SBC sex position to be derived from that on mission.

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?

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quote:

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How about you leave the hosting to those whose job it is??

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quote:

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All views are welcome – orthodox, unorthodox, radical or just plain bizarre – so long as you can stand being challenged.

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Having said all that, I respect your authority on this thread, and if you rule against me, I'll abide by that.

Please don't reply immediately.

Best wishes,

H&E
 

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Posted by Ham'n'Eggs (# 629) on :
 
Oh b*****!

Apologies, sackcloth and ashes....
 

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Posted by Louise (# 30) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ham'n'Eggs:

quote:

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Originally posted by Louise:

quote:

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Originally posted by thegreent:
JLs quote

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You can always take other posters to Hell, if you think they're being insensitive idiots.

Someone could start a Hell thread in which we could all compete to see who could post the most insensitive and offensive quote of the year - but then how could we hope to match a masterpiece like the one above?

L.

[posting as shipmate!]

---

I'm sorry Louise, but I can't see how this constitutes reasoned debate. Any chance that you could enlighten me?

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Lad Himself:
I do believe people go to hell. I don't believe they go for committing suicide per se - I don't believe it's possible simply to commit suicide, any more than it's possible to simply kill a man. There's always more to it than that, like murder or self-defense might affect the eternal effect of killing of another human.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Icarus Coot:
Outside of depressive or other mental illness (or even moments of diminished responsibility/crisis situations in otherwise well people*), I agree with the Chesterton quote: it is the ultimate rejection of God's Creation. ...God's Creation and I do find it shocking that anyone in possession of their faculties could choose to reject it**,

** I think that it necessarily follows that someone who rejects God's Creation is not in possession of their faculties. (The same sort of argument as to why Hell will not be populated eternally ie. Christian universalism - no-one in their right mind could reject God eternally)

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Coot - i think this argument is as good as 'why does anyone in their right mind smoke/ drink/eat too much etc.'In an ideal world where we all act according to the one true way, fine, but in rality im not sure its so clear cut.

In terms of rejection of Gods creation - do you think thats how someone at their wits end would see it?
 

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Posted by Icarus Coot (# 220) on :
 
Greent,

No, I guess that was my point: people who kill themselves because they are 'at their wits end' are not doing it in a rejection of the Creation ie. I think it is a pathological response and they are to an extent outside of morality. Ordinary standards of morality are not applicable. (I say 'to an extent' because except maybe in florid psychosis we mostly have a choice)

But the ** comment was my thought that even those who who do it in an apparent rejection of the Creation (I am thinking of the possibility of nihilists or Satanists) are 'not in possession of their faculties', which is a bit strong, but basically, in the same way that Christian Universalists (I'm thinking Orthodox thought on Hell) say no-one who knows the truth of God can eternally reject him; no-one who has enough awareness of God can reject him and the Creation. I suppose what I'm saying in another way is, 'Only sane people can choose to reject the Creation, but if you choose to reject the Creation it means you are not sane'. Heh!
 

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Posted by Merseymike (# 3022) on :
 
The Chersterton quote seems distanced from the reality of real lives ; frighteningly so. Perhaps this shows the limitations of doctrine in situations which, by their very nature, cannot be neatly packaged up into some sort of edict or guideline.
 

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Posted by Scandal (# 4185) on :
 
Like Rowen I have been too busy ministering to those left behind in pain, distress and feeling terrible failures becaue they hadn't seen this coming or prevented it happening. You get close to the family when you help scrub up the mess left behind as they blow their brains out!

But theologically??? Thou shalt not murder is pretty clear in the 10 commandments, but can you murder yourself?

I can only conclude from my pastoral ministry that those who kill themeselves do so because they can no longer handle the world and its lack of care or feeling on their behalf. They die hopeless and that is a deperately sad reflection on those of us who survive .... for ALL of us have failed to help them see that their life does matter, that there is something worth living for.

I have often spoken to the relatives and friends left behind of how God would view the suicide of their loved one, because this is a question that they keenly feel, however tenuous their undersanding or hold on God may be. They also feel isolated because this is still seen as something terrible and sinful by the world in general.
I tend to use Roman 8 as it sums up clearly the faith that NO ONE is beyond God's loveand that NOTHING can separate us from him.

My own personal feeling is that God has a special corner reserved for such as these. A place where he can strive with them to see and understand that he does care and that others do care; that they do matter and that they are loved beyond all telling.
I'm taking 'theological' here, to mean, 'where does God come into this' as opposed to a code invented by human agencies.
 

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Posted by thegreent (# 3571) on :
 
makes sense now coot
 

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Posted by Professor Yaffle (# 525) on :
 
Originally posted by Anselmina:

quote:

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But the Chesterton 'ivory tower' position sounds like a rather cold-blooded exposition on the philosophical mechanics of self-extinction, within the context of a perfectly viable world; rather than the reality, which is the hot-blooded, though usually calm acceptance of utter despair, within the context of a life which has become hopelessly unviable.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by JL:
From Chesterton:
Not only is suicide a sin, it is the sin.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Laura:
Do you find a nice brisk morning body rub with steel wool pads to be "helpful" in appreciating your nerve endings?

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No, that's me.

Actually, my understanding of the reason for the forbidding (forbiddance?) of suicide is on grounds that it is murder -- just murder of one's self -- and that one does not have the right to do that even when it is oneself.

I generally agree with both Chesterton's quote (!) AND with the people who say that mental illness is a mitigating factor. I don't think that all suicide is a result of mental illness, and there really have been people like Archer who proposed self-killing machines, which is what Chesterton was arguing with. And I do think that "For God's sake, there's a bluebird outside your window -- if you cannot live for the sake of anything else, live for that bluebird's sake" is a valid, and quite rational, argument, whether or not someone struggling with despair can understand it at the time.

Saying that to commit suicide is a sin, AND that people can be in circumstances (whether emotional or otherwise) which might tempt them to near the breaking point, aren't mutually exclusive. Insofar as someone isn't responsible for their actions, then I'd say that they would hold less responsibility for that action too, and I do believe that if God can forgive other sins, then the physical act of suicide can be forgiven as well. But I do believe it is forbidden to us as Christians.
 

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Posted by Merseymike (# 3022) on :
 
But what real help is it to inform them of that if they were in mental distress, or were suffering from a disease which could be medically sustained ,in terms of life in years ?

I would hope that I never foresee a time when I would wish to take my own life, but in the absence of voluntary euthanasia I would have no doubts that certain circumstances may cause me to do so.
 

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Posted by Divine Outlaw-Dwarf (# 2252) on :
 
Thank you, Jesuitical Lad for reminding me why I dislike Chesterton so much.

The absolute sin, for Christians, is failure to love.

Individual instances of suicide may or may not be objectively sinful depending on motivation, state of mind and all sorts of other things we will never know about a person at their time of acting. The Christian attitude towards anyone who has committed suicide is to entrust them in love to God and to hope in God's reconciliation of all creation. Pompus abstract moralising of the GKC is about as unchristian as you can get.
 

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Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 
I think Chesterton's statement will also make sense if we put it in context not of someone committing suicide in emotional torment/anguish, but of philosophical despair or nihilism. It starts not with "Someone whose spouse left them for someone else, leaving them destitute in the street" but:

quote:

---

Under the lengthening shadow of Ibsen, an argument arose whether it was not a very nice thing to murder one's self. Grave moderns told us that we must not even say "poor fellow," of a man who had blown his brains out, since he was an enviable person, and had only blown them out because of their exceptional excellence. Mr. William Archer even suggested that in the golden age there would be penny-in-the-slot machines, by which a man could kill himself for a penny.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by sarkycow:
Because, afaik, these things do not get you automatically condemned to Hell, yet suicide does, or did, depending on your view point.

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quote:

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Originally posted by jugular:
People who commit suicide have a mental illness, usually depression.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad:
It's a sin which, if committed with full consent and undertanding etc. (i.e. fulfilling all the criteria for a sin to be mortal)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Freddy:
...no single act determines whether a person goes to heaven or hell. It is an accumulation of life choices, and the person himself goes where he wants to be. Suicide is only one piece of that puzzle.

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Freddy, as ever

What is a theological standpoint anyway? Is it not just an intellectualism of spirituality, humanity and religion? (I ask that as a question, not as a statement). So to take a theological view of suicide in cases of extreme mental, physical, or as Freddy pointed out spiritual stress, are we not just missing the point, as some others have mentioned, of our call to love people not bog them down with religious thinking and morals???

I found Freddy's post helpful because it has helped me to see why at times I have felt so low and not been able to explain or have any reason for my feelings. And why those feelings have passed...almost as if satan has put me on his hit list and too lazy to do the job himself wants me to carry it out for him.

Unlike other quotes - the Chesterton one in particular, though I see it is out of context and rings no bells with me - Freddy's words are empowering, strengthening and altogether helpful. But I think it might be useful to have some case studies as there surely can be no one cut and dried response to suicide and it seems to me at the moment that we are all talking about different things

For example, didn't Hitler kill himself?

[fixed UBB for quote]

[ 27. May 2003, 15:15: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]
 

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Posted by Divine Outlaw-Dwarf (# 2252) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad:

quote:

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Originally posted by sarkycow:
Because, afaik, these things do not get you automatically condemned to Hell, yet suicide does, or did, depending on your view point.

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It's a sin which, if committed with full consent and undertanding etc. (i.e. fulfilling all the criteria for a sin to be mortal) can not, by its nature, be repented of. I think that would be the main problem.

[fixed quote]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Divine Outlaw-Dwarf:
And you know that for a fact do you?

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quote:

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Originally posted by thegreent:

In terms of rejection of Gods creation - do you think thats how someone at their wits end would see it?

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Personally i do see it as a rejection of Gods creation.
I have always seen suicide (and self harm) as my rejection of something that God created...If i had to liken it to some theological thing, i'd say it was blasphemy against the holy spirt (whihc i was told meant seeing something God did and saying it was of the devil, not sure how theological that is) it is deliberetly turning away from gods creation, hating it to the point of destroying it...
But it's forgivable.
IMHO it hurts God like crazy, doesn't make him angry it makes him upset...'cos he can see the pain and the brokenness there. I don't think God could condem someone who was broken. I hope not anyway.

(sorry if this post is insensitive, or in some way against the policy...)
 

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Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 
(((((sophs)))))

You said it better than I could!

(((((sophs)))))
 

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Posted by Jerry Boam (# 4551) on :
 
Hmmmm...

There are a number of blanket statements being made about suicide witht the implicit presumption that all suicide is basically a choice made by very depressed people.

A number of people have taken a more nuanced position and suggest that suicide in the context of mental and physical illness is categorically different than suicide by a healthy person.

I find it hard to believe that anyone does not take this view and suspect that abstract positions will always tend to collapse when the issue is confronted in the life of someone known and loved (parents, children, lovers, friends, spouses).

As for the Chesterton, ChastMastr, what can I say:

"an insult to all women"
 

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Posted by madkaren (# 1033) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad:
It's a sin which, if committed with full consent and undertanding etc. (i.e. fulfilling all the criteria for a sin to be mortal) can not, by its nature, be repented of. I think that would be the main problem.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Jerry Boam:
There are a number of blanket statements being made about suicide witht the implicit presumption that all suicide is basically a choice made by very depressed people.
A number of people have taken a more nuanced position and suggest that suicide in the context of mental and physical illness is categorically different than suicide by a healthy person.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Jerry Boam:
As for the Chesterton, ChastMastr, what can I say:

"an insult to all women"

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Actually I don't think Chesterton was singling out one gender in any way...

And other than that you'd apparently not agree, can't figure out what you're trying to say with that array of smilies. Hard to argue with a smilie.
 

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Posted by eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
Here's my take. I'm speaking as a pastor who has buried more vicitms of suicide than any other causes of death, and as someone who tries to base his worldview, and theology, on Scripture. I'll keep the quotes as short as possible to avoid making this post too long. I know these don't answer all the existential problems or all the ethical ones, but I have found them helpful in making sense of what I have seen others go through and of my own feelings.

In Philippians 1:23-25 Paul says "my desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better". This is often the reason given by christians for committing suicide. However Paul goes on to say "to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account. Convinced of this, I know that I will remain…". So Paul seems to conclude that if he is still alive, it is because God has his reasons, and it is not up to him to contest this. It may seem impossible for a suicidal person to hold to such a position. However 2 Corinthians 1:8 Paul says of himself "we were so utterly burdened beyond our strength that we despaired of life itself". I think it's a fair implication that Paul himself felt suicidal on at least one occasion.

2 Corinthians 5:1-10 also seems to me to address suicidal feelings. In v4 Paul summarises his argument of v2-3 thus: "While we are still in this tent [our body] we groan, being burdened - not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed".
This admits to the suffering of the human condition and the desire to die (v2 "to put on our heavenly dwelling").

I find it tremendously helpful that this tension is acknowledged within the christian faith. It's part of our lot, and a lot of triumphalistic models of christianity (the failure of which may actually lead some to suicide) would do well to take note of this passage.

However, a distinction is made between wishing to be 'unclothed' and being 'further clothed'. My understanding is that the christian hope is for a resurrection of the body which will occur at the return of Jesus. Before then christians who have died will be 'with the Lord' but without their resurrection bodies – a peaceful state of existence but not a consummate one and not seen here as a legitimate object of hope. Reaching this state before our time will not realise our hope (consider the souls of the martyrs in Rev 6:9-10 who still cry out "how long, O Lord…?").

Paul concludes the passage in 2 Cor 5 again recognising the suffering inherent in not yet being at the resurrection but saying that nonetheless our aim must be to please Jesus, and reminding his readers that their reward in heaven will be on the basis of what they do here on earth, in the body.
 

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Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad:
Look at the history and practises of the Stoics, and you'll see it's an assumption which fails in some cases. Same goes for certain Oriental cultures.

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quote:

---

For it destroys all buildings: it insults all women. The thief is satisfied with diamonds; but the suicide is not: that is his crime. He cannot be bribed, even by the blazing stones of the Celestial City. The thief compliments the things he steals, if not the owner of them. But the suicide insults everything on earth by not stealing it.

---

I somehow got the idea from the bit which I've bolded that he was literally talking about women. I do realize that this is just an example of the sexist language of the day and that one is expected to pretend not to notice the stupid gender roles implied, but it disgusts me, hence the projectile smilie.

The following cryptic comment, all in smilies, was meant to indicate that the passage makes me feel mixed emotions including despair ( ), frustration ( ), anger ( ), and disgust ( ).

Sorry if that was confusing.

It may help you to understand this mix of responses if I tell you that in considering this topic I am thinking of a person I loved very much who, faced with a rapid descent into dimentia and an inevitable, agonizing, drawn out death, killed himself. I am also thinking of the other people who loved him and I'm imagining someone explaining to them that his actions were an insult to all women and little birdies and that he was worse than a thief, murderer, stalin, hitler or whatever other hyperbolic bull**** is stated or implied in that crap posted by JL. And the thought makes me feell angry, sad, frustrated and disgusted.

I feel a similar mix of emotions at the idea that God somehow needs or requires people to go through the loss of the ability to reason and a slow agonizing death, unless we are scrapping the idea that love is important to God and are instead supposing that God is a sadistic bastard who created the universe just to torture its inhabitants. And I do not believe that.

I can believe that such horrible diseases and deaths are an inevitable result of the nature of creation and that excluding their occurence would also prevent the development of created beings. But not that this should preclude us from mitigating the suffering of others or understanding their reaching their limits. But I'm probably a heretic anyway so don't mind me.
 

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Posted by ThoughtCriminal (# 3030) on :
 
this article and this one sum it up for me. I could tie it in with my theology, but I am not feeling sufficiently awake at this moment to do so. If I remember this thread in a couple of days' time, i will come back to it...

Also too tired to explain this in too much detail, but I think that on this issue there will be a very fundamental, possibly unrexolvable, split in opinion between a) those who have attempted suicide themselves, and b) those who have not attempted suicide themselves, but whose loved ones have. (I say this from experience as a member of group a) - those in group b) who i know tend to disagree extremely strongly with the articles linked above, but those in group a) who i know almost universally agree with them).

I cannot reccomend too strongly going to see (if possible) or reading (second best, but still amazing) the play "4:48 Psychosis", by Sarah Kane, for anyone who wants a true, non-pathologised understanding of a suicidal person's point of view.

I also find it interesting that Palestine and Islamic fundamentalism has not yet come up on this thread.
 

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Posted by Scot (# 2095) on :
 
HOSTLY NOTE OF CAUTION

Throwing a deliberately inflammatory statement into a charged thread and then clearing out indefinitely might be construed as trolling. Ladies, Gentlemen, and Others, please do not feed trolls.

Also, please take note of the Ship's policy which limits signatures to a maximum of four lines. Signatures found in violation of policy will be changed to something which amuses the hosts and admins, and then locked. Trust me, you don't want that.

scot
Purgatory Host
 

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Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :
 
Thank-you for the articles Thought Criminal. I will have to consider them more carefully before I can respond coherently, but I found them interesting.

Several years ago I had 5 friends commit suicide within an 18 month period. It was incredibly painful, especially the last death (the 3rd anniversary of which is on the 31st).

I don't think the lines between the opinions of those who have suicided (or attempted), and those who are left behind are that distinct, but as I said I need time to consider this further.

Huia
 

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Posted by Caver (# 4392) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Never Conforming:
Am I the only person who sees significant difference between suicide and self harm? Are they always related?

Jo

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quote:

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Originally posted by Never Conforming:
Am I the only person who sees significant difference between suicide and self harm? Are they always related?

Jo

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quote:

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Originally posted by Caver:

quote:

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Originally posted by Never Conforming:
Am I the only person who sees significant difference between suicide and self harm? Are they always related?

Jo

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Whoops sorry about the double posting, don't quite know what happened there.

I agree NC, I would see self harm as a means of coping that is not necessarily related to suicide at all. It may or may not have been discovered in an attempt to commit suicide, but that is almost besides the point. I can understand why many people who have no experience of self harming would see the two as related (I also have no experience of either).

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quote:

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Madkaren,

Mortal sin per se can be repented of, yes. But Catholics don't believe in the possibility of posthumous repentance.

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quote:

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We should not despair of the eternal salvation of persons who have taken their own lives. By ways known to him alone, God can provide the opportunity of salutary repentance. The Church prays for persons who have taken their own lives.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Professor Yaffle:
Which would seem to indicate that the official position is not as clear cut as you make out.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Scandal:
Like Rowen I have been too busy ministering to those left behind in pain, distress and feeling terrible failures becaue they hadn't seen this coming or prevented it happening. You get close to the family when you help scrub up the mess left behind as they blow their brains out!

But theologically??? Thou shalt not murder is pretty clear in the 10 commandments, but can you murder yourself?

I can only conclude from my pastoral ministry that those who kill themeselves do so because they can no longer handle the world and its lack of care or feeling on their behalf. They die hopeless and that is a deperately sad reflection on those of us who survive .... for ALL of us have failed to help them see that their life does matter, that there is something worth living for.

I have often spoken to the relatives and friends left behind of how God would view the suicide of their loved one, because this is a question that they keenly feel, however tenuous their undersanding or hold on God may be. They also feel isolated because this is still seen as something terrible and sinful by the world in general.
I tend to use Roman 8 as it sums up clearly the faith that NO ONE is beyond God's loveand that NOTHING can separate us from him.

My own personal feeling is that God has a special corner reserved for such as these. A place where he can strive with them to see and understand that he does care and that others do care; that they do matter and that they are loved beyond all telling.
I'm taking 'theological' here, to mean, 'where does God come into this' as opposed to a code invented by human agencies.

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((((((((Scandal)))))))).

There are some really sensitive people out there.
This has been hard to read but worth it. Thanks
 

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Posted by Jerry Boam (# 4551) on :
 
The articles linked to in Thought Criminal's post take a position, almost entirely focused on the act of a person not facing terminal illness, that suicide should be a civil right. This is an interesting argument for a discussion of good government, but doesn't seem to have anything to sat about the theological issues surrounding self-killing.

The mitzva that is usually given as a theological basis for the idea that suicide is sinful is generally given as "Thou shalt not kill." It is sometimes pointed out (often by advocates of capital punishment) that the original Hebrew translates better as "Thou shalt not murder" and that lawful killing was not only not permissible, but required by God. I'm sure you are all familiar with the proof texts trotted out in this context.

So, is all suicide self-murder, or can some suicide be considered lawful or even mandatory self-killing?

Is there some theological basis for making special allowances for the terminally ill? If not, and we are concluding that God wants people who have been selected for agonizing deaths to go through the experience "naturally," should we not also restrict the use of pain killers which reduce the intensity of the pain required by God?

I believe that Divine Outlaw Dwarf has the key theological position here:

quote:

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The absolute sin, for Christians, is failure to love.

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quote:

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Just saying it alot or in diferent ways doesn't make it seem right or consistent with basic Christian values: love your enemy, love your neighbor, do unto others as you would have them do unto you....

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ender's Shadow:
What I'm arguing is that suicide is ultimately a selfish act - it is saying that my concern for myself is greater than the concern that I have for anyone else in the world. It is also a rejection of all the good that is in creation - which is what I take from the Chesterton quote. Given who I am, to hear this clearly expressed makes suicide a less attractive option - and would for me therefore be useful for me to hear away from a time when I am drifting towards such behaviour, and possibly even when letting the idea play on my mind. That doesn't mean it would be helpful for everyone, but I don't think you should assume it's not helpful for some.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kyralessa:
...If [my parents] were to ask me, earnestly wanting to know, what the Orthodox viewpoint is on the doctrine of their church,

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad:
Madkaren,

Mortal sin per se can be repented of, yes. But Catholics don't believe in the possibility of posthumous repentance.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad:

quote:

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Originally posted by sarkycow:
Because, afaik, these things do not get you automatically condemned to Hell, yet suicide does, or did, depending on your view point.

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It's a sin which, if committed with full consent and undertanding etc. (i.e. fulfilling all the criteria for a sin to be mortal) can not, by its nature, be repented of. I think that would be the main problem.

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quote:

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For it destroys all buildings: it insults all women. The thief is satisfied with diamonds; but the suicide is not: that is his crime. He cannot be bribed, even by the blazing stones of the Celestial City. The thief compliments the things he steals, if not the owner of them. But the suicide insults everything on earth by not stealing it.

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sorry to throw Gilbert right back into the mix, but i think what he's getting at is not really all that sexist - i think just maybe what he was saying is that the beauty of a woman's body, soul, spirit as created by God ought to be enough to make one want to go on living, and therefore killing oneself in some way says that the suicide has glanced at womankind but not seen all her beauty, or that it has for some reason left him cold. Chesterton actually was nihilistic and suicidal for a goodly chunk of his teens/early 20s, if i recall correctly from my reading about him, so perhaps he need not be rejected out of hand as someone so out of touch ... just a thought.

topic at hand ... i have also spent several years in such interior turmoil as to be suicidal - both before and after "becoming a born-again (TM) Christian". i had a friend in junior high who did kill herself, went to her funeral a few months after i had become a Christian. it's not that i felt abandoned, or as though she had been selfish in doing that ... more that my heart just ached for her. let alone our other friends. i sat with them, and i walked up the aisle to the casket with them, and i heard them and myself crying, frightened, and angry at adults whom we somehow felt should have recognized that something was desperately wrong with our friend and done something to prevent what happened. probably, there was nothing they could have done, but at 15 we don't understand that.

i never had a particular theological standpoint on suicide that kept me from doing it - i was just scared of pain ... but somehow i had some strange, unnameable sense of calling - that sense that if i could just make myself get through to the next day and the day after that and the day after that and on and on, somehow i would get to doing something for others that would make my having lived worthwhile. after becoming a Christian, one of the first things i read in the New Testament (i had started out with the Psalms and the minor prophets ) was the bit in I Corinthians about one's body being a temple, therefore destroying the body being wrong ... that's not a particularly pleasant thing to read when contemplating suicide either, but i did add it on as just one more reason not to do it.

so ... no, i don't think God would condemn anyone who killed themselves in sheer despair, seeing no way out of a living hell except to die. but i think it does sadden Him deeply, and leaves a hole in the fabric of all people's existence - a place where that person might be the only one who could say or do the only thing that could solve something, or pull someone back from the brink, or whatever. God can pull someone else into that place, but that person is going to be missed.

that probably made no sense, but there it is ... cheers

[sorted quote attribution and code]

[ 31. May 2003, 04:11: Message edited by: Scot ]
 

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Posted by Never Conforming (# 4054) on :
 
Comments earlier in the thread talk about not being able to repent of the sin of suicide. I was just thinking about Marilyn Monroe, and other people like her. Assuming that she killed herself, there was still enough time for her to (at least) reach for the phone.

Bearing in mind there can be a gap between committing the act that will kill oneself, and actually dying, would it not be possible to pray, and ask God for his forgiveness.

It must be gutting to change ones mind after setting out on this path, but it must be possible that it happens.

Jo
 

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Posted by Will H (# 4178) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by jugular:
People who commit suicide have a mental illness, usually depression. Suicide is a fatal symptom of this illness.

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I couldn't agree more. Suicide is no more a sin than dying of any other disease. Or perhaps we should condemn people who die from cancer?
 

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Posted by Jerry Boam (# 4551) on :
 
(Follows Lapensiera on slightly divergent OT path; finds supine horse in a little clearing and approaches, crop in hand)

What is sexist is the assumption that a generic person contemplating suicide is male, and that his failure to hang on reflects a callous indifference to the charms of women, and is therefore an insult… not just because of the automatic masculinity of the generic case, which can be partially forgiven as an artifact of the language not easily circumvented, but also because of the implied relationship between a given man and all women…

But this is a minor point… And I am very sorry that my intemperate response irritated Chesterton fans. I don’t mean to be a callous oaf, it just sometimes happens. Sorry.

(Looks about and hunts for path back to OT)

What is particularly irritating about the suggestion that there is this generic man (who is insulting all women by neglecting to consider them as he considers ending his male life) is the idea that it’s useful to imagine suicide in the abstract when it only ever actually occurs in the context of a richly complicated and unique human life.

I have the impression that there is some common recognition that not all self killing is the same, but also that there is a category of nihilistic self killers who are acting out of selfishness and lack of proper respect for the world around them. I have never met such a person, nor have I heard of such a person existing in anything but an abstract fantasy. I think it likely that what is seen as nihilism in others is almost always despair or rage born of frustrated ideals and dashed hopes.

There are people who have some of the characteristics ascribed to Chesterton’s hypothetical selfish guy. There are also people who kill themselves impulsively out of anger. Approaching these complex lives with an abstract theoretical position doesn’t seem very helpful. Nor does striking an official Church position, when God’s will is not clear—it smacks of idolatry, substituting the officials and structure of "the Church" for God.

"Don’t trouble yourself about the sheep and goats thing, Lord, we’ve got it covered—job’s done, just sit back and relax and enjoy a mango juice or something, O King of Kings, we did the judging thing already."

I have an ill-defined thought about the distinction drawn by Kyralessa between a theological standpoint on suicide and pastoral care for suicidal people. The scriptural references and related thoughts expressed eloquently by Eutychus earlier in this thread show a theological standpoint on suicide. I’m not sure that I believe in a theological stance divorced from pastoral care. The Messiah explained the essence of the Torah and the prophets as "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength" and "love your neighbor as your self." When interpreting the will of God, I think it would be wise to keep these words of Jesus foremost. Even when not actively engaged in pastoral care for suicidal people, Christians might want to bear in mind the possibility that the parents, children, friends and lovers of persons who have committed suicide may be among their audience and write with love for these people, as well as the suicidal, as a primary consideration.

Well, I don’t think I expressed that very well, but it’s the best I can do a the moment.
 

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Posted by Icarus Coot (# 220) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Kyralessa:
I'm a bit annoyed with the way G. K. Chesterton is getting knocked around in this thread. The thread's title, after all, is Theological Standpoint on Suicide. Not Pastoral Counseling for Suicidal People or some such. JL gave a theological view of suicide from a theological book, and following that he and Chesterton both received, "How could you say such a cruel, heartless thing to a suicidal person?"

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quote:

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Originally posted by lapensiera:
so ... no, i don't think God would condemn anyone who killed themselves in sheer despair, seeing no way out of a living hell except to die. but i think it does sadden Him deeply, and leaves a hole in the fabric of all people's existence

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Well said.

Huia

[fixed quote]

[ 01. June 2003, 18:30: Message edited by: Scot ]
 

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Posted by Jerry Boam (# 4551) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Icarus Coot:
I'm suspicious of the 'forget the theology lets get down to the pastoral aspect' approach. There's a classy latin phrase: 'What we pray is what we believe'. Well, unless we are primal, reactive creatures, what we do must come out of what we believe. That's why it is right to discuss theologies on suicide. Doing things with an emotionalistic, 'it felt like the right thing' approach, sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. Unless there is something robust and sorted behind our actions I think there is a risk of bringing our own crap into pastoral occasions (not saying anyone has from the examples given).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jerry Boam:

I did say that I don’t believe in a theological stance divorced from pastoral care. I was being imprecise—I don’t believe in a Christian theological stance divorced from compassion.

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That pretty much sums it up for me too, Jerry Boam. I had to work through the theological side of my Catholic faith, as well as my grief, when Allen died.

A theological position on suicide must be more nuanced than "suicide is a mortal sin". It must be both motivated and informed by compassion flowing from love between God and humanity, as well as from the love we must bear for our fellow humans.

Where I do have a genuine theological problem is with Dr Philip Nitscke and his supporters, in the news again this morning advocating the right of the terminally ill to have access to the means to commit suicide.

I have nothing but compassion for the terminally ill who face the question of suicide in order to avoid further suffering, as well as for their families and those who care for them.

However lying behind the "suicide as a civic right" position is the moral position that a life of suffering, of physical or mental indignity or disability, of diminishment due to disease is no longer worth living because it is not as good as the life that person lived before. Thus, it is argued, the terminally ill should have the right to escape that diminished life. That, to me cheapens the dignity of those lives, as it carries with it the unacceptable suggestion that life is no longer worth living, once it falls below a certain quality of existence and that suicide is a proper solution.

A compassionate theology of suicide, one that holds fast to God's mercy, would not grant that wish. For our lives are not our own but a gift of God, to be run to their finish, even if that life is painful and the finish is hard. Such a theology would affirm and comfort that person's humanity and the dignity of their lives to the end of life, while remaining compassionate to those who cannot bear to endure until that end and who chose to suicide.
 

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Posted by Kyralessa (# 4568) on :
 
When I was a fair bit younger, in junior high, I think, I had a friend named Josh who died of brain cancer. A Sunday or two later, our preacher gave a sermon talking about the idea of karma (he was, of course, against it). A fair bit of the sermon focused on Josh, and how outrageous would be the notion that his suffering and death was due to bad deeds done in some previous life.

Now that was emotionally manipulative, and crass, and totally inappropriate. Had I been an adult, I might well have gone up and told him off. But I was just a kid, and he was the preacher, after all.

Context was the key. Though Josh and his family no longer lived in our city, they'd been part of our church and a lot of people there knew them. Using his death to make an abstract theological point, especially when that death was so recent, was an abuse because of the context. Ten years down the road, if the same sermon had occurred, I wouldn't have been so sensitive about it.

As for Chesterton, I think it's fair to suppose that depressed or suicidal people wouldn't be reading a book called Orthodoxy to begin with. Or on the other hand, the rare depressed or suicidal person who would nonetheless read a book like that is probably also the sort of person who would be influenced by Chesterton's argument, and would end up not committing suicide because of it. At any rate the context makes it clear that he was arguing against philosophies, not against depressed people, and this point about suicide was only one point in a whole chapter in support of a different argument.

Googling shows that when I look for views of my church (Orthodox) on suicide, the responses are much more nuanced and compassionate. The reason is obvious: People asking questions about suicide are dealing with the actual occurrence, whereas nobody goes to Chesterton's books for counsel on suicide.

Finally, during high school, the father of a friend of mine from another church was shot and killed. He was not a Christian himself, and the teaching of the church that I (and she) were in said he stood condemned. Our youth group went to the visitation, and our youth minister spoke with this girl for a while. Afterwards, we'd asked what he'd said. He asked us in turn, "What do you think I might have said? Do you think I emphasized the justice of God, or the mercy of God?" So even in our otherwise rather hard-nosed group back then, there was a clear recognition that theological teaching and pastoral care are two different things.


 

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Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 
Kyralessa

Jerry Boam said:

quote:

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I’m not sure that I believe in a theological stance divorced from pastoral care.

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But then what do you do with, say, the forbiddance of murder even when someone has found that their spouse has cheated on them? This sort of thing has happened many times and still does; a person who is tempted to hunt down the person their spouse has committed adultery with (or possibly the spouse, or both) is going through extreme and understandable duress -- but it still doesn't make it morally right for them to go kill the person. And focusing on that, even though true, may not necessarily be what is pastorally needed at that point (though it may).

Icarus Coot:
 

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Posted by Chesterbelloc (# 3128) on :
 
Ahem.

quote:

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Originally posted by Jerry Boam:
I don’t believe that teaching that suicide in all cases leads to hell can be supported by scripture and I don’t see how making such a claim in the kind of hyperbolic, emotional rant exemplified by the Chesterton quote can be consistent with the teachings of Christ.

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quote:

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I can see such a rant as placing a stumbling block before believers, leading people to reject the faith and running afoul of the warning in Matthew 18:6. I also find support for the idea that the Chesterton bit is not in keeping with essential Christian doctrine in Romans 14. I don’t know if Chesterton would actually go to hell for having written this, but the warning is unambiguous about this sort of thing.

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quote:

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I’ve had a go a Chesterton, and rightly so. [...] One may have a valid point to make which is intrinsically distressing to many, that is not a problem. But if one chooses to make that point in a needlessly cruel way (e.g., Chesterton), then I think it is reasonable to reject that expression as inconsistent with the teaching of Christ.

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So it's needlessly cruel (and anti-Christ in to the bargain, let's not forget) to express extreme disapproval (albeit eloquently) at a nihilistic and morally and spiritually dangerous philosophical trend? Really? Because that is what Chesterton was actually doing, and I'm not the first one to point that out on this thread.

Seriously, if you'd been posting this kind of stuff, with the same lack of contextual support, about a much-respected (and reputedly very holy) living religious writer, you'd have been verbally lynched long before now, Jerry.

"And rightly so".

CB (wouldn't ya know ...)
 

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Posted by Divine Outlaw-Dwarf (# 2252) on :
 
I don't have much time for Chesterton, and I have read him. I think that he probably thinks that most, if not all, human thought since about 1789 is "nihilistic", unless it is explcitly Christian.

But the idea that suicide, in general, results from philosophical nihilism is simply crazy. People were committing suicide well before philosophical nihilism came back into fashion. People with all encompassing Christian worldviews committed suicide, and many did so believing that they would go to hell as a result.

Human motivations are complex, frequently confused and inconsistent. And the only Christian response can be to offer them up in the hope of redemption.
 

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Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 
I try to make the time to read Chesterton. I should read more of him than I have thus far.
 

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Posted by Kyralessa (# 4568) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Divine Outlaw-Dwarf:
I don't have much time for Chesterton, and I have read him. I think that he probably thinks that most, if not all, human thought since about 1789 is "nihilistic", unless it is explcitly Christian.

But the idea that suicide, in general, results from philosophical nihilism is simply crazy. People were committing suicide well before philosophical nihilism came back into fashion. People with all encompassing Christian worldviews committed suicide, and many did so believing that they would go to hell as a result.

Human motivations are complex, frequently confused and inconsistent. And the only Christian response can be to offer them up in the hope of redemption.

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quote:

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I put these things not in their mature logical sequence, but as they came: and this view was cleared and sharpened by an accident of the time. Under the lengthening shadow of Ibsen, an argument arose whether it was not a very nice thing to murder one's self. Grave moderns told us that we must not even say "poor fellow," of a man who had blown his brains out, since he was an enviable person, and had only blown them out because of their exceptional excellence. Mr. William Archer even suggested that in the golden age there would be penny-in-the-slot machines, by which a man could kill himself for a penny. In all this I found myself utterly hostile to many who called themselves liberal and humane. Not only is suicide a sin, it is the sin... (G. K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy)

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Chesterton was not arguing against suicidal people themselves, nor against those who held out hope that suicidal people were not necessarily condemned to hell. Nor yet was he arguing that all suicides are the result of nihilism. He was arguing, rather, against people who, due to their nihilism, thought that suicide was a good, respectable thing.

And if, grasping that point, we have trouble understanding how anyone could ever have called suicide a good, respectable thing, then that just shows how far removed we are from the context within which Chesterton wrote. (And if it's that hard to understand Chesterton, who lived so recently, imagine how hard it is to understand something like the New Testament without serious study of its context and background!)

Getting back to the actual topic of the thread, I might point out that we Orthodox pray for the dead. In fact just a week ago we had a memorial service in our parish for someone who died a year ago; we not only remembered her, but also prayed for God to grant her rest and to forgive her sins. Also, we ask the dead to intercede to God for us. In worship we petition the saints, but in our private prayers we may also petition other deceased Orthodox, even those not considered saints.

Thus in our tradition the dead are still considered to have some sort of existence between their death and the general resurrection yet to come. Could this mean that even suicides are not beyond all hope? Not being a priest or bishop, nor having studied the question, I'm not qualified to say, but it would be an interesting question to put to one who has studied it.

(Or, heck, we could just wildly speculate. )
 

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Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Kyralessa:
Thus in our tradition the dead are still considered to have some sort of existence between their death and the general resurrection yet to come. Could this mean that even suicides are not beyond all hope? .........
(Or, heck, we could just wildly speculate. )

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{A not very theological but gut-feeling response....)
I am no more qualified than anyone else to answer this question. But in my opinion I would say that of all the people who most needed the hope that Christ offers, those who consider destroying themselves, and even manage it, are the ones most deserving of the hope that God so much wants to give them - whether in this life or the next.

And who is to say that in those final moments of mortal consciousness there is not, taking place, the absolute in God's gracious mercy for those who need it most.

Christ said the healthy didn't need the physician and that he didn't come for the so-called righteous. If redemption has any worth at all surely it must be at its shining best when the despair is deepest and the work of God's saving love is at its most gracious and loving and salvific.

Going to the cross was hard; can there be any human action too difficult to be redeemed by the Divine sacrifice?
 

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Posted by Chesterbelloc (# 3128) on :
 
Kyralessa,

Thank you. Just thank you

Anslemina,

I absolutely agree with you - and so, it seems utterly clear to me, would GKC.


CB
 

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Posted by Archimandrite (# 3997) on :
 
I think ChastMastr is quite correct. The Chesterton appears to me (though it may well be taken out of a much more -worthy context) to be based quite firmly in a refutation of the idea in Ibsen of which he writes at the start.
He isn't dealing, in the main, with depression or despair, but rather with the Hedda Gabler or Eilert Lovborg attitude (in 'Hedda Gabler') that one is 'simply far too interesting to be surrounded by all these dull, worthy, decent people, and so ought to seek a brave, bold exit.' It is a quite nauseating view in itself, and I think it is that which Chesterton is trying to counter.
In any case, if this is a 'Theological Standpoint' thread, and GKC is an example of a particular theological standpoint, then it has every right to be here, offensive or not.
 

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Posted by Jerry Boam (# 4551) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
Only, that doesn't characterise Chesterton's position at all. As you'd know if you'd read the several other posts on this thread responding to that particular criticism. Context is all here - and there's nothing sanctimoniously judgemental about Chesterton. In fact, from his own autobiography, it's clear suicide was not just a hypothetical philosophical threat to him. But "emotional rant"?! Come on, fess up - you haven't read that passage in any context at all, except in this thread, have you?

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quote:

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So it's needlessly cruel (and anti-Christ in to the bargain, let's not forget) to express extreme disapproval (albeit loquently) at a nihilistic and morally and spiritually dangerous philosophical trend? Really?

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Seriously, if you'd been posting this kind of stuff, with the same lack of contextual support, about a much-respected (and reputedly very holy) living religious writer, you'd have been verbally lynched long before now, Jerry.

"And rightly so".

CB (wouldn't ya know ...)

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Seriously, I thought it would be clear from context that when I said I'd "had a go at Chesterton," I meant that I had crticized this piece of his work, not the man himself. Oh, well.

Gosh, CB, does the verbal lynching come with a verbal cross burning by robed and hooded nightriders?

But hey, if y'all really think I deserve a verbal lynching, I guess that's what Hell is for, down below decks. Bring it on, if that's what y'all gotta do. But if y'all throw a party for me and bring a verbal noose, cowboy, I am likely to show up with a verbal 12 guage Mossberg loaded with rhetorical 00 Buck. Don't start that party unless you're ready to dance.

Feel me, partner?

Gosh, what a long post! Looks like the sort of thing posted Ms. Byronic. Sorry. I promise not to do it again.
 

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Posted by Kyralessa (# 4568) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Jerry Boam:
Uh, no actually, CB, you are quite mistaken. I will confess to not being a big fan of Chesterton, but neither do I scorn him or his work as a whole. I was addressing the passage quoted by JL in the context of this thread, on it's internal merit, but I did read the whole of "The Flag and the World" to get it in context. I also read the several other posts arguing that Gilbert didn't mean what he wrote. Sorry, CB, reading it in the context of the chapter, or even the whole of "Orthodoxy" doesn't help.

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If you want to argue these points at length, PM me so we can spare these good people.

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Why, are our objections to your viewpoints not appropriate to display publicly?

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I was raised in an atheist family that held Christianity and Christians in deep contempt. Among the horrors Christianity stood accused of by my parents were the Crusades, the Inquisition, the nightmarish tradition of mass persecution and murder of Jews culminating in the holocaust, the persecution of scientists and suppression of learning and discovery, the oppression of women, the oppression of non-European peoples and the theological position under discussion. It [I]IS[/I} a stumbling block set in the path of people seeking truth. I am not being hyperbolic or fabricating this. If this is surprising to you, you might want to ask some non-Christians about it.

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quote:

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If I am wrong, perhaps it would be productive to teach me than to "teach me a lesson."

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quote:

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This is the last mention I will make of Chesterton in this thread (unless there is a really good reason).

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quote:

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Gosh, CB, does the verbal lynching come with a verbal cross burning by robed and hooded nightriders?

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Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 
Um, actually I think Jerry Boam makes some good points... particularly that Chesterton does indeed refer to "pathetic emotional" stuff etc. so it is not limited to intellectual nihilism. And non-Christians are often put off Christianity by the sins committed by Christians; and while some atheists have done really horrible things (like Stalin), atheism isn't really an organised group which hangs together the way the Church, or even churches, do. I.e., in a certain sense the earthly Church (Roman Catholic, anyway, if not others) really does need to answer for, apologise for, etc. the Inquisition in a way which, say, a given atheist need not at all approach the actions of Stalin.

However, Jerry Boam says

quote:

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Is it explicitly clear that all suicide is to be considered not just self-killing, but self-murder? Is there a passage in the Gospels that I missed ...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jerry Boam:
Uh, no actually, CB, you are quite mistaken. I will confess to not being a big fan of Chesterton, but neither do I scorn him or his work as a whole. I was addressing the passage quoted by JL in the context of this thread, on it's internal merit, but I did read the whole of "The Flag and the World" to get it in context. I also read the several other posts arguing that Gilbert didn't mean what he wrote. Sorry, CB, reading it in the context of the chapter, or even the whole of "Orthodoxy" doesn't help.

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quote:

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I call it hyperbolic because it is: "There is not a tiny creature in the cosmos at whom his death is not a sneer" If that ain't hyperbole, I'll
drink all the tea in China.

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quote:

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As others have pointed out, some people kill themselves precisely to benefit those they leave behind. Chesterton allows for this possibility in the next paragraph, when discussing martyrs, but only in contrast to "the suicide:"
"Obviously a suicide is the opposite of a martyr. A martyr is a man who cares so much for something outside him, that he forgets his own personal life. A suicide is a man who cares so little for anything outside him, that he wants to see the last of everything."
Again, he is clearly talking about suicide in general, not suicide executed by a nihilist.
Sorry, but this argument only works if you position the straw men just so, and doesn't hold up under a minimum of critical scrutiny.

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quote:

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In case you were confused by the opening discussion of suicide slot machines into thinking that he was only talking about suicide by nihilists, Chesterton goes on to say:
"Of course there may be pathetic emotional excuses for the act"
Goes beyond nihilism, no?

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quote:

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While he is explicitly arguing against nihilism in this sentence, the practice of special burial for suicides was not restricted to cases of suicide by nihilists, so this cannot be said to be only about nihilism.

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quote:

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Two paragraphs on, Chesterton says, regarding the impalement of the suicide's corpse and its burial at a crossroads, "I am not saying this fierceness was right; but why was it so fierce?" Well he isn't saying it was wrong either, as I think he should

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But the main point is this: he is saying that the reasons for these extreme views about and reactions to all suicides are valid.

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But, as I said, I don’t arrogate to myself the power to judge the eternal fate of others. That judgement belongs to Jesus and not to any man, denomination, movement, church or school of theology.

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Seriously, I thought it would be clear from context that when I said I'd "had a go at Chesterton," I meant that I had crticized this piece of his work, not the man himself. Oh, well.

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Gosh, CB, does the verbal lynching come with a verbal cross burning by robed and hooded nightriders?
But hey, if y'all really think I deserve a verbal lynching, I guess that's what Hell is for, down below decks. Bring it on, if that's what y'all gotta do. But if y'all throw a party for me and bring a verbal noose, cowboy, I am likely to show up with a verbal 12 guage Mossberg loaded with rhetorical 00 Buck. Don't start that party unless you're ready to dance.

Feel me, partner?

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Originally posted by Kyralessa:
Chesterton was not arguing against suicidal people themselves, nor against those who held out hope that suicidal people were not necessarily condemned to hell.

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Originally posted by Divine Outlaw-Dwarf:
...It is not possible to abstract theological principle from lived reality. Theology matters because God matters to real people. One cannot talk abstractly about 'theological standpoint on suicide' without raising the question 'what does God think about my friend who killed himself?'

And as for suicide being, the sin, that is just absolute nonsense...

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Well, there we all go, then. You can't talk about theology abstractly. Clearly I have a heck of a lot of books to throw out when I get home today. And for that matter, this board has a heck of a lot of posts to delete.

I would just like to ask one question:

Why do all these hypersensitive "My-best-friend-committed-suicide" people flock to a thread clearly titled "Theological Standpoint on Suicide"?
 

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Posted by Louise (# 30) on :
 

quote:

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Why do all these hypersensitive "My-best-friend-committed-suicide" people flock to a thread clearly titled "Theological Standpoint on Suicide"?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kyralessa:
Why do all these hypersensitive "My-best-friend-committed-suicide" people flock to a thread clearly titled "Theological Standpoint on Suicide"?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mousethief:

quote:

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Originally posted by Kyralessa:
Why do all these hypersensitive "My-best-friend-committed-suicide" people flock to a thread clearly titled "Theological Standpoint on Suicide"?

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You're kidding, right? Say you're kidding.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kyralessa:
Why do all these hypersensitive "My-best-friend-committed-suicide" people flock to a thread clearly titled "Theological Standpoint on Suicide"?

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I would just like to ask one question:

Why do all these hypersensitive "My-best-friend-committed-suicide" people flock to a thread clearly titled "Theological Standpoint on Suicide"?

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does that deserve an answer?

although i didnt make it (!) both myself and a few of my friends have attempted suicide in the past. Not a fact im proud of, but part of me none the less.

however - does that make me hyper-sensitive?
As a theology graduate... i am interested in many of the posts in purg, although as erin said - usually teh more interesting ones! I think too that all our theology is to some extent limited/ increased/ affected through our life context...

theology in many ways is us making sense of life here on earth. and sadly for many people, suicide/ self harm/ suffering/ world disasters etc are part of that...
 

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Posted by Nightlamp (# 266) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Kyralessa:

Why do all these hypersensitive "My-best-friend-committed-suicide" people flock to a thread clearly titled "Theological Standpoint on Suicide"?

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Because to divorce theology from feelings is a stupid mistake some theologians have made many people on the ship try and not repeat that error.
 

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Posted by thegreent (# 3571) on :
 
nightlamp - well said.
 

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Posted by Divine Outlaw-Dwarf (# 2252) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Kyralessa:

quote:

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Originally posted by Divine Outlaw-Dwarf:
...It is not possible to abstract theological principle from lived reality. Theology matters because God matters to real people. One cannot talk abstractly about 'theological standpoint on suicide' without raising the question 'what does God think about my friend who killed himself?'

And as for suicide being, the sin, that is just absolute nonsense...

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Well, there we all go, then. You can't talk about theology abstractly. Clearly I have a heck of a lot of books to throw out when I get home today. And for that matter, this board has a heck of a lot of posts to delete.

I would just like to ask one question:

Why do all these hypersensitive "My-best-friend-committed-suicide" people flock to a thread clearly titled "Theological Standpoint on Suicide"?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kyralessa:

Why do all these hypersensitive "My-best-friend-committed-suicide" people flock to a thread clearly titled "Theological Standpoint on Suicide"?

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For the same reason that it is such an important theological question -- nearly everyone human is confronted with the need to grapple with the question of suicide. Lots of us deal with this, to greater and lesser degrees, as part of our personal on-going existence. Many more deal with it second-hand as they try to help loved ones cope or deal with the pain of losing someone to suicide.

Trying to understand the balance between the immediate pain of living and the greater pain which can result from making the wrong mental/spiritual choices in how to deal with the pain would seem to me to be the essence of what theology is supposed to deal with. Theological writings tend to be set forth in definitive terms, but the true theological discourse (IMHO) is the individual soul grappling with what it really means here and now as this individual life is being lived.

I suppose if one sees theology as nothing but a dry, intellectual, academic subject, then those "My-friend-committed-suicide" people have no right to join the discussion. Of course, by that standard, it isn't theology anymore, it's philosophy.
 

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Posted by jlg (# 98) on :
 
(Major cross-posting event!)
 

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Posted by Kyralessa (# 4568) on :
 
I don't have a problem with everyone whose best friend committed suicide. Just the hypersensitive ones. Or, to be more specific, the ones who, when faced with a theological position on suicide, ignore its context and reply "That's just so insensitive" instead of bothering to understand it or refute it.

Certainly, theology should be relevant to real life. But if all you have to post on a "Theological Standpoint on Suicide" thread is "So-and-so's theology makes me feel bad", then why post at all?

I have other things to say on this note but they will be posted in Hell.


 

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Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :
 
jlg and Erin

Thank you.



Huia
 

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Posted by Merseymike (# 3022) on :
 
I have already commented in Hell, but I can only think that theology which brings forth this sort of response may be lacking in practical usefulness, and may be positively damaging. Thus it has little real worth at all.
 

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Posted by Scot (# 2095) on :
 
HOSTING

Kyralessa, everyone is welcome to post on this thread, both the hyper-sensitive and the hyper-insensitive. However, both groups are expected to show a reasonable amount of decency and respect for one another.

Your two most recent posts have been deliberately rude and hurtful. You owe an apology to the people on this thread who have shared personal experiences with suicide. Please make that apology in your next post.

scot
Purgatory Host
 

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Posted by Kyralessa (# 4568) on :
 
My criticisms went wide of their mark, and I apologize to those who were sideswiped therein.
 

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Posted by Scot (# 2095) on :
 
Thank you, Kyralessa.
 

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Posted by thegreent (# 3571) on :
 
ditto
 

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Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 

 

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Posted by Balaam's Asteroid (# 4543) on :
 
Thankyou hostly people, this was going a little too far.

I'm not one of those hypersensitive "My-best-friend-committed-suicide" people I'm a once hypersensitive "I-attempted-suicide" person.

Chesterton was right in theory, but to post on a board where they can be read by all - which may include the recently bereaved or suicidal - is not the sort of sympathy I had hoped for.

The pastoral issues must never be divorced from the theological.

Otherwise this is a 95% good thread, there's a lot of sensitive people out there.
 

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Posted by Divine Outlaw-Dwarf (# 2252) on :
 

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Originally posted by Balaam's Asteroid:


Chesterton was right in theory.

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Q. We got into a discussion in my Bible class about whether Christians who commit suicide go to heaven. I always thought that God forgives everything, except the unforgivable sin of not accepting him. But others in my class hold different views. I have two questions: (1) Do Christians who commit suicide go to heaven? and (2) What is the "unforgivable sin"?

--

A. Taking a human life is an extremely serious sin, and while a murderer can repent, there is no chance for repentance after death. However, it's another thing entirely if the person who committed suicide was emotionally imbalanced or mentally ill. We might even say that the person didn't kill himself but mental illness killed him—like cancer or heart disease could kill someone else.

[Edited for copyright. Click here for full text.]

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[ 06. June 2003, 13:40: Message edited by: Scot ]
 

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Posted by Never Conforming (# 4054) on :
 
Thank you, both for apologising and for the last post.


Jo
 

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Posted by Jerry Boam (# 4551) on :
 
Sorry, I haven't been able to reply lately. There's been a whirlwind of rush jobs at work and my twins have colds and are very wakeful... While I have certainly heard its siren call, the Ship has had to take second place. Shocking, I know, but there it is.

I very much regret giving you the impression, Kyralessa, that I did not think your arguments worth airing in public. In fact, I have enjoyed reading most of your posts and found them thought –provoking and interesting. I suggested discussing the controversial passage elsewhere solely because I thought that continuing to discuss it here would be a hijacking of this thread.

Rather a lot has been said since my last post, and I most of the thoughts I would have posted in the interim have already been expressed well by others here and in the hell thread, so I won’t rehash the issues—but I feel I should answer CBs post, because he took the trouble to write it. I don’t have time just now, but will get back to it soon. Not sure if this is the proper place. Can’t PM him to discuss, he’s blocked, so if there’s no objection, I will answer here. Out of time now.

And I want to second Never Conforming’s praise for your last post, Kyralessa.
 

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Posted by Kyralessa (# 4568) on :
 

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Originally posted by Jerry Boam:
And I want to second Never Conforming’s praise for your last post, Kyralessa.

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Your praise should go to the author and columnist Frederica Mathewes-Green, who wrote the answer above. Incidentally, she's Orthodox, which just goes to show that most Orthodox are not as obnoxious as I am.
 

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Posted by Chesterbelloc (# 3128) on :
 
Sure,get back to me here, Jerry - confused as to why you can't PM me though. Have been receiving others ok today - not deliberately incommunacado, honest!

CB
 

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Posted by Jerry Boam (# 4551) on :
 
WARNING: The following post is a reply to ChesterBelloc’s comments, Shipmates who do not feel strongly about “The Flag and the World” may wish to skip to the next post.

I characterized the quotation from Chesterton as a hyperbolic emotional rant. CB agreed that it was hyperbolic but denied that it was an emotional rant.

Was it emotional? I think so. He starts by declaring that he is “utterly hostile” to nihilism. He then loads the paragraph with intrinsically emotional subjects, touching on suicide, rape, terrorism, and murder, all in inflammatory language. Just in case the quality of emotion being invoked is unclear, he gives us this: “when a man hangs himself upon a tree, the leaves might fall off in anger and the birds fly away in fury.” I don’t think it is unreasonable to conclude that: a) he feels strong emotions about these subjects, b) he is trying to stir the emotions of his audience c) among the emotions he is both expressing and hoping to arouse is anger. Based on these observations, I think one can safely describe the whole tone as “emotional.” This is not to say incoherent, or free of logic or argument.

Was it a rant? I think so. The American Heritage Dictionary defines a rant as “Violent or extravagant speech or writing” and “A speech or piece of writing that incites anger or violence.” We have already agreed that Chesterton employs hyperbole and the careful reader will have noticed that he invokes crimes of violence and violent emotions in pursuit of his rhetorical goals. This combination satisfies both conditions of the first definition, when either would suffice. If my conclusions b and c in the previous paragraph are correct, then the passage also meets the second definition. Sufficient reason, then, to call it a rant.

A general note of clarification--
Among the points in contention are:

Proposition A) Suicide is a unitary sin: all acts of suicide are alike in their sinfulness. The perpetrator of suicide will face the same consequence regardless of the motivations and circumstances precipitating the act.

Proposition B) Suicide is a set: acts of suicide may be differentiated by the circumstances and motivations of the their perpetrators. Membership in the set is defined solely by the identity of perpetrator and victim. The differences between members of the set are significant, may be regarded as mitigating circumstances and may result in different penalties.

Proposition C) Chesterton is not only arguing against nihilism, but also for proposition A: all suicide is the same sin.

As a preface to the discussion of the other points in contention, I think it may be fruitful to note that I take the following to be axiomatic:

An endorsement of the supporting propositions of an argument is implied by their employment in that argument.

In the circumstance that one supports position X and opposes position Y, if one raises as evidence against Y practices and stances X1, X2, X3, … Xn, one is implying a belief in X1-Xn.

For example, if Col. Blimp proclaims:

“What Lord Bunk says is right: we must limit immigration by Narragonians! The Bodgery Report says Narragonians are lazy and dishonest by nature! They were found to be dirty and have loose morals.”

It is understood from this that Col. Blimp is not only agreeing with Lord Bunk, but also endorsing the conclusions of the Bodgery Report. While Col. Blimp does not himself say that Narragonians are lazy, such a belief is implied.

In the case that one refers to a well known document, law, statement, or position in an argument in order to support an argument, one is implicitly stating an agreement with known details of that position.

For example, if Col. Blimp proclaims:

“What Lord Bunk says is right: we must limit immigration by Narragonians! The Bodgery Report proves it!”

And it is known that Bodgery Report declares Narragonians to be lazy, dishonest, dirty and possessed of loose morals, one is on safe ground concluding that Col. Blimp finds the Bodgery Report to be accurate and agrees with its findings.

I do not dispute that the hateful statements about suicide occur in the context of an argument against nihilism. But in attacking nihilism, Chesterton describes a number of Christian beliefs about and responses to suicide. He does not differentiate between suicides in different circumstances and the practices he discusses are known to have been carried out against suicides in general.

By raising those Christian beliefs and responses against nihilism (or, as he does in one case, pessimism), he implicitly endorses those beliefs. Where he does qualify his endorsement (e.g., endorsing the belief underlying the practice of separate burial but not necessarily the “fierceness” with which it was applied), he makes sure to unambiguously declare that his qualification applies to the practice and not the belief.

Examining the paragraph originally quoted by Jesuitical Lad, and the three paragraphs immediately following it, I conclude that proposition C above is true, Chesterton argues from a belief in proposition A, views suicide as a unitary sin, and does not recognize significant differences among suicides for any reason.

Into the nitty gritty:
CB argues that CKG believes Proposition B (suicide as a set, its members differentiated by motivation and circumstance) to be true:

quote:

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Of course some people do it for others (as they see it) - but GKC can't be meaning to condemn them in this passage, because he says of those he condemns that they do not care about others. How then can it also be a condemnation of those who care so much about others that they die for them?

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What he says only makes sense if it refers only to those who just don't care about the rest of the world.

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About the same time I read a solemn flippancy by some free thinker: he said that a suicide was only the same as a martyr. The open fallacy of this helped to clear the question. Obviously a suicide is the opposite of a martyr. A martyr is a man who cares so much for something outside him, that he forgets his own personal life. A suicide is a man who cares so little for anything outside him, that he wants to see the last of everything. One wants something to begin: the other wants everything to end. In other words, the martyr is noble, exactly because (however he renounces the world or execrates all humanity) he confesses this ultimate link with life; he sets his heart outside himself: he dies that something may live. The suicide is ignoble because he has not this link with being: he is a mere destroyer; spiritually, he destroys the universe.

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quote:

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Okay, this is where we get to the nub of it. When GKC says "pathetic" here, he's clearly not meaning "woefully/culpably inadequate" - he means that there can be truly awful circumstances that explain (his word is even "excuse") the act in some cases, using the word in its etymologically straight meaning.

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quote:

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Of course there may be pathetic emotional excuses for the act. There often are for rape, and there almost always are for dynamite.

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He explicitly acommodates altruistic sacrifice and cases of severe emotional trauma seperately.

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A helpful piece of advice, here: if you start accusing someone of saying something so awful that it might just end them up in hell, that could be interpreted as a personal attack ...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jerry Boam:
Just in case the quality of emotion being invoked is unclear, he gives us this: “when a man hangs himself upon a tree, the leaves might fall off in anger and the birds fly away in fury.” I don’t think it is unreasonable to conclude that: a) he feels strong emotions about these subjects, b) he is trying to stir the emotions of his audience c) among the emotions he is both expressing and hoping to arouse is anger.

... Was it a rant? I think so. The American Heritage Dictionary defines a rant as “Violent or extravagant speech or writing”

... Chesterton very clearly has no real sympathy for these other reasons for suicide:

quote:

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Of course there may be pathetic emotional excuses for the act. There often are for rape, and there almost always are for dynamite.

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GKC gives the non-nihilist suicides all the respect due to rapists and terrorists.

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"...I was much moved by the eloquent attack on Christianity as a thing of inhuman gloom; for I thought (and still think) sincere pessimism the unpardonable sin. Insincere pessimism is a social accomplishment, rather agreeable than otherwise; and fortunately nearly all pessimism is insincere. But if Christianity was, as these people said, a thing purely pessimistic and opposed to life, then I was quite prepared to blow up St. Paul's Cathedral."

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… does it mean that any statement of such things, no matter how valid, will always be a "rant"?

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But you see, for those of us who are not sola scriptura, it's not only in the Gospels or even the Bible which we hold to be doctrinally important; Christian tradition is a very serious matter. My understanding of the reason Christians are not permitted by God to kill themselves is that it is self-murder -- that deliberately killing an innocent human being, in a non-self-defence context, is forbidden, and only justice, wartime, self-defence, or accident remove the moral charge of muder.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jerry Boam:
see women’s suffrage, slavery, autos-da-fe, among others

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You're welcome! Though, erm, you may be surprised to learn my views (and reasons why) on such matters as you reference above... See appropriate threads, possibly in Dead Horses or Limbo. (Thrill to see ChastMastr's gradual and tediously painstaking examination of the whole women's ordination issue, for instance. Or just run screaming from the whole thing...)

David
"Autos-da-fe were actually rather late, as it turns out, and --- GACK!"
-- sound of David being abruptly strangled in mid-pedantic-rant
 

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