Ship of Fools: Purgatory: Things I changed my mind about on the SoF

Thread: Purgatory: Things I changed my mind about on the SoF Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by linzc (# 2914) on :

I was perusing the thread about ChastMastr's 3000th posting (congrats) and noticing a few other 3000 club members. I got to wondering whether long exposure to the sometimes impassioned discussion on SoF actually changes people's minds about issues - or is it just a way of sharpening our opinions?

For myself, I think that whereas before coming onboard I would have described myself as a 'hopeful universalist', I now am happier to be more committed to universalism - to say that I believe it to be the truth. But I don't know if SoF actually changed my mind, or simply made me more inclined to speak my mind.

What about others?

[ 19. June 2003, 18:13: Message edited by: Erin ]

Posted by Lifeman (# 579) on :

I've got to admit to being a bit homophobic - perhaps in part because a whole region of Manchester has been taken over by the gay community. I credit the Ship with making me more tolerant of gays and hopefully more tolerant generally.

Posted by barrea (# 3211) on :

So far ship of fools hasw not made me change my mind about anything. Only made me more glad for what I know is true, but I am very interested in the discussons.

Posted by Jengie (# 273) on :

Has Ship of fools changed my opinion.

Yes.

Once because I intended it to as I knew it was time to but needed to hear uncomfortable voices in order to. This thread is long dead so I will let it remain so.

Yes I have clarified my thinking on how we interpret faith. Must post on "What is truth?" at some stage but need time.

Yes it made me investigate the stance of the Orthodox Church and no the change has not given me a more positive picture.

Jengie

Posted by Gracia (# 1812) on :

Very interesting question for me, Linzc. Every so often, I will ask myself: Gracia, how well-spent is all the time you spend at SOF?
Since I am very “theology-lite”, I tell myself that I’m getting a free education, but I have a suspicion that it functions for me, after a certain point, as reading can – a passive, safe way of gaining knowledge (even if only about others’ views).

I also like to check in frequently to see if I can possibly call myself “normal”, as that tends to concern me. There’s usually enough honesty here, ISTM, that I am somewhat reassured.

As for changing my mind, no, but I do have better reasons for my beliefs, having thought about others’ posts at length, & I’ve gotten some good referrals to books and teachers.

Posted by Wood (# 7) on :

SoF has made me, over the last three years, a lot more knowledgeable about tons of church traditions. It's made me more confident about arguing my point.

It's also made me realise that the more I know about my own traditions abd others, the more sure I am that the theological tradition into which I fell, eight years ago, quite by accident, is utterly the right one for me, notwithstanding its flaws.

Posted by Louise (# 30) on :

Confession

Before I became involved on the Ship I had a very unpleasant stereotyped view of Conservative Evangelical people.

Something that has been great for me is seeing that stereotype broken up and being able to think of the many different people on the Ship with different views to mine whom I like and respect.

I think it has made me a lot more willing to say 'Even if I don't share your views, there needs to be a space for them and recognition for them'.

I think it's made me more willing to think about compromises. There still are things that push all my buttons (bad scholarship in the service of religious ideology [Mad]

Prejudice against gay and lesbian people [Mad]

) but I think I find it easier now to recognise that certain views which drive me nuts can be held with integrity by people I respect.

L.

Posted by babybear (# 34) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Wood:
SoF has made me, over the last three years, a lot more knowledgeable about tons of church traditions. It's made me more confident about arguing my point.

I would agree with that. I have also been able to find things in these different traditions that have enhanced my own worship and spiritual life.

Before I started reading MW I believed that icons, tat, praying to the saints etc all lead to idolitary. There may be some people who do idolise such things, but they are in a very small minority.

I have had a huge re-think about the sacraments. My beliefs haven't really changed, but I am now able to explain why my beliefs are as they are.

bb

Posted by marmot (# 479) on :

Interesting question.

I'm not certain I've changed my mind about any big religious issues, but I have been encouraged by some discussions to do my own research on those issues.

And I have been helped over some serious bumps in my journey by those who were able to provide a context for Old Testament stories that were troublesome to me.

One thing I have changed my mind on: the idea that cultural prejudice can be dispelled by talking to each other.

Posted by sarkycow (# 1012) on :

I have a better understanding of various ideas, themes, topics, points of theology, what-have-you. And I can back up my opinions a lot more now.

Hmmm, stuff I have changed my mind on.

Hell.
Tat and liturgy.
Truth and lies.

Viki

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :

what Louise said

Posted by duchess [green] (# 2764) on :

I have a more tolerant, understanding view of more Liberal shipmates. I have a tendency to become too high-minded and lean towards legalism...the ship helps me with that. Ironic since I was the biggest party girl before I knew Christ (and I liked to think she is dead and buried...and my new self is all there...but the old self keeps popping up).

Anyway, I am glad my eyes continue to be opened. People's openess about their struggles and beliefs really help me.

Also learning to talk about my Calivinist views in a way that dodesn't inflame people (trying them out on y'all...various approached) has been helpful.

We live in a very big mystery on planet earth, don't we?

Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :

I cannot say that I have changed anything in my beliefs, but, most definitely, I have found many discussions very stimulating and learnt a great deal from them. For example, I knew practically nothing of the Orthodox until I had Internet access.

One other thing which I learnt was that I am by no means the "Highest" Anglican on earth - quite the contrary. I have had great fun, while learning a good deal, on Mystery Worship.

Posted by Freehand (# 144) on :

I've learned and changed tons. I came on board from an evangelical background. After a discussion with the Skeptical Atheist and from many other discussions on board I came to the conclusion that there is no rock-solid way of knowing the truth of Christianity (there's always a gap that is spanned by faith whether it be small or great). So the Ship has been a big part of me ditching the hell-fire Christianity that used to lurk under my skin.

Since then, it has been surprising to learn that not all Christians are in a relationship with a dysfunctional god like I was. And it has been great to learn that lots of people have a clear, intelligent, and meaningful basis for their faith even if there always is that gap. This has helped me to continue to take Christianity seriously even though the hell-threatening concept of god really annoys me. And all this helps in my relationship with my wife as she is a Christian.

Agnostically yours,

Freehand

Posted by RooK (# 1852) on :

Refusal to state any belief as definite is central to who I am. This means that I can't actually claim to have "changed my mind" about anything.

Nevertheless, to chime in the accolades of the Ship-Of-Fools, I treasure the variety of insights that have been provided to me here. Many things that didn't even exist for me before have been illuminated here. More importantly, my fundamental dislike of humans has been greatly assuaged by interacting with people here - you've all given me slightly more hope for the future of mankind.

Posted by Astro (# 84) on :

Very similar to what Wood said.

Also I was fairly post-evangelical when I came on board but now realise that it is possible to be evangelical without being anti-interlectual and without taking on the psuedo-evangelical sub culture.

Posted by Moth (# 2589) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Astro:

Also I was fairly post-evangelical when I came on board but now realise that it is possible to be evangelical without being anti-interlectual and without taking on the psuedo-evangelical sub culture.

I'm very glad about that. I was beginning to wonder if I was the only evangelical in existence who wasn't anti-intellectual and who disliked parts of the 'culture' of evangelicalism. Then I discovered Ship of Fools... [Big Grin]

I'm not sure I've changed my mind about anything yet, but I'm considering certain things. The main problem with belonging to any church is that like tends to gravitate towards like, and it's hard to have a real discussion. The ship has a greater variety of opinions on board than any church I've attended.

Posted by BigAL (# 750) on :

Without wanting to sound negative or critical, contrary to most other people I have become less tollerant. I thought that there was little difference between many Christians having never really had a problem at Uni mixing with Baptist, methodists, anglicans and the odd Catholic person. I had come to the conclusion that basically they're mainly alright. One or two oddities but they can be avoided.

Having used the board for about a year or so I have come to a different conclusion. To summarise would be difficult but basically I think your all lost causes who will let anything go even if it is complete rubbish, and you seem to have no respect for the bible.

Posted by Jesuitical Lad (# 2575) on :

quote:
Originally posted by BigAL:
Having used the board for about a year or so I have come to a different conclusion. To summarise would be difficult but basically I think your all lost causes who will let anything go even if it is complete rubbish, and you seem to have no respect for the bible.

We're all lost causes?

Wow.

Posted by Ham'n'Eggs (# 629) on :

BigAl, I am curious to know why, if this is the case, you choose to remain on these boards? [Confused]

Posted by BigAL (# 750) on :

quote:

We're all lost causes?

Wow.[/QB]

that's maybe a bit harsh the main problem is sometimes I have problems accepting this is a Christian based board, as some opinions are so far removed from what I understand from the bible.

I'm sure your all lovely people ... I find the board just keeps exposing your "failings" (things I don't agree with... and there are many)

It works both ways you no doubt find me a conservative dinosoar who takes Christianity back into the dark ages!

Posted by BigAL (# 750) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ham'n'Eggs:
BigAl, I am curious to know why, if this is the case, you choose to remain on these boards?

in the hope of correcting all your basic errors..

Posted by linzc (# 2914) on :

quote:
Originally posted by BigAL:

quote:
Originally posted by Ham'n'Eggs:
BigAl, I am curious to know why, if this is the case, you choose to remain on these boards?
in the hope of correcting all your basic errors..

BigAL, are you actually J.T. Chick in disguise?
Haw! Haw! Haw!

Posted by Nunc Dimittis (# 848) on :

SoF has helped me to gain a more balanced view of Evangelicals throughout the world. And taught me to stop casting them all into the Sydney Diocese basket [Roll Eyes]

.

It has also challenged my faith in other respects. And been a support when I felt I was losing it...

Posted by Erin (# 2) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Ham'n'Eggs:
BigAl, I am curious to know why, if this is the case, you choose to remain on these boards?

Oh, I dunno... I think it's helpful to have a few people around to remind us what it is we're fighting.

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by BigAL:

quote:
Originally posted by Ham'n'Eggs:
BigAl, I am curious to know why, if this is the case, you choose to remain on these boards?
in the hope of correcting all your basic errors..

go back and re-read that thing in the Bible about splinters and logs [Roll Eyes]

Being on the Ship has made me:

- More passionate about what I do believe

- Better at arguing what I believe dispassionately (attacking the issue and not the person [Big Grin]

)

- More determinded to hang in there

- Helped me learn about different ways of seeing the same thing

- Make friends with people way outside my own tradition

- Able to tidy up busted code [Snigger]

For which I thank God for the Ship on a regular basis [Not worthy!]

Tubbs

Posted by Scot (# 2095) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad:
We're all lost causes?

I am. It'll take a miracle to save me.

Oh wait...

[Big Grin]

Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :

I am more committed to universalism (of my own ideosyncratic and pathetic stripe) than before. Also, I am far less likely to visit Florida.

Reader Alexis

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Scot:

quote:
Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad:
We're all lost causes?
I am. It'll take a miracle to save me.

Oh wait...

On a completely unrelated tangent, I discovered a liking for gin [Big Grin]

Which I'd never have bothered to develop otherwise.

Tubbs

Posted by Wood (# 7) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Scot:

quote:
Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad:
We're all lost causes?
I am. It'll take a miracle to save me.

Oh wait...

Amen.

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

quote:
Originally posted by BigAL:
It works both ways you no doubt find me a conservative dinosoar who takes Christianity back into the dark ages!

Heavens, no. For better or for worse, people weren't sola scriptura back in the Dark Ages. [Wink]

As for it "working both ways," one thing I like about the Ship is that for the most part, people of differing views, including "conservatives" with theology not too different from what I imagine yours to be, can discuss things WITHOUT living "in the hope of correcting all your basic errors.." which is actually not what the Ship is for.

The Ship has given me a place to discuss things without knock-down arguments, and know some very nice people, some of whom I've even met in person. While I don't have as much time as I used to, I still want to read and post here.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

quote:
Originally posted by BigAL:
Without wanting to sound negative or critical, contrary to most other people I have become less tollerant. I thought that there was little difference between many Christians having never really had a problem at Uni mixing with Baptist, methodists, anglicans and the odd Catholic person. I had come to the conclusion that basically they're mainly alright. One or two oddities but they can be avoided.

Having used the board for about a year or so I have come to a different conclusion. To summarise would be difficult but basically I think your all lost causes who will let anything go even if it is complete rubbish, and you seem to have no respect for the bible.

Something I would like to change my mind about with the help of Ship of Fools is my attitude towards people who represent the 'Christian' stance of the 'brother' above quoted. But along comes someone like him and blows that one out of the water! Tell me again, Lord, how often should I forgive my brother? Thank heaven it's God's grace we rely upon for our life in Christ, and not this kind of witness to the gospel.
[Disappointed]

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
I am more committed to universalism (of my own ideosyncratic and pathetic stripe) than before. Also, I am far less likely to visit Florida.

I've been shown the downside of Michigan and Indiana... but LA and Sydney are looking better by the thread.

Posted by Qlib (# 43) on :

What Louise said (again).

Posted by Jesuitical Lad (# 2575) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Scot:

quote:
Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad:
We're all lost causes?
I am. It'll take a miracle to save me.

Oh wait...

What, you mean we're not saved by our good works and fervent worship of the Blessed Virgin?

[Eek!]

(Must stop reading Jack Chick threads...)

Posted by Brojees (# 3333) on :

quote:
Originally posted by BigAL:
Without wanting to sound negative or critical, contrary to most other people I have become less tollerant. I thought that there was little difference between many Christians having never really had a problem at Uni mixing with Baptist, methodists, anglicans and the odd Catholic person. I had come to the conclusion that basically they're mainly alright. One or two oddities but they can be avoided.

Having used the board for about a year or so I have come to a different conclusion. To summarise would be difficult but basically I think your all lost causes who will let anything go even if it is complete rubbish, and you seem to have no respect for the bible.

Big Al,

Is the perceived liberalism here truly representative of those who have absolutely no respect for the Bible? Are you judging them too harshly? I am not in any way defending this disrespect for the Bible. I also receive the same perception, to a certain degree. The site does appear quite libertine with many appearing to support each other through inane rationializations of their transgressions.

The sniping and flame baiting tactics as well appear to support your perception. Amazingly there are many tactics used here which are also common to the Internet Infidels site, why I have absolutely no idea.

But then one or two will actually engage in respectful debate and once having done so will reveal a faith that is not readily apparent in their initial presentation. These few seem to merge in well here so I must question the perception I confess I share with you concerning their collective disrespect for the Bible. Could it be that we allow our perception to be driven by one or two more vocal libertine participants and sinfully pass judgement on the rest?

I am learning here, I do not yet know if I am learning for the better or for the worse, but I am learning.

Posted by Phil Williams (# 812) on :

Hmmm ...
For me, Ship has simply continued a pilgrimage I began on another internet chat-site. I do think that the internet has opened us all up to Christians from other traditions. I do think that Ship is broader, though. Hence the disquiet that the more fundamentalist Shipmates feel ... hey can these guys really call themselves Christian?! They don't agree with my presuppositions for a start ... [Disappointed]

I suspect the real value of these boards isn't so much that people change their minds so much as think through their faith position contra other competing or conflicting or perhaps even complementary claims.

Hence Liberals learn to respect evangelicals and vice versa.

For me it's made me more tolerant of the more liturgical traditions as well as increasingly intolerant of the naff bits within my own ... but, along with Wood to some extent, appreciative of its particular insights too.

We've a lot to learn from one another.

[Heart]

Phil

Posted by SpO-On-n-ng (# 1518) on :

What Louise said, yet again. Greater, though still very limited, understanding of what it is to be Orthodox. I'm not sure it's changed my mind about anything central to faith otherwise, but it's certainly honed some of the duller edges.

Posted by tomb (# 174) on :

quote:
BigAl wrote:
...To summarise would be difficult but basically I think your all lost causes who will let anything go even if it is complete rubbish, and you seem to have no respect for the bible.

"We seem to have no respect for the Bible." What an astonishing judgemental thing to see written about about this community! If one didn't know better, one would suspect that you were a Troll, BigAl, bent on nothing more than offending people and getting them to post annoying and unchristian things about you.

And how interesting to see you engaged in a private, condescending conversation with Brojees on a public board. Trolling again, BigAl? Hoping we'll "overhear" and take notice?

And just what does this Bible that you presumably respect more than anybody elso the Ship does have to say about your current behavior?

Oh, excuse me; perhaps in your universe the dicta of Holy Scripture only apply when used against other people. You, of course, have it "written on your heart" and so feel comfortable pointing out the errors of our ways to us.

Then you are surprised when you're treated rudely.

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

Brojees, you seem to have been reading a completely different board to me. If you don't mind, I'm going to use your post to illustrate to good things that I've found here.

As has been said by others, this is a site where a wide range of views are represented. Needless to say there have been a few times when people with deeply held but irreconcilable views have engaged in flaming, and sometimes those have resulted in major falling outs with people leaving the Ship. But, generally I'm very impressed by the ability of people here to engage in reasoned debate without resorting to flame baiting or other similar tactics. This has taught me a great deal of respect for people with views different from mine.

I've found that the Ship is a place that complements my evangelical background. I've found here a deep respect for the Bible, though many of the evangelicals I know might find it difficult to see that. I've never seen the Bible as a book that shouldn't be studied with the best tools of academia, and there are people here who have informed me of much of that academic study. Questioning the Bible (and Tradition too for that matter) is the highest respect I can see given to it. There is plenty of questioning here.

I've also found that the Ship is a place where people can be honest about their lives without risking condemnation. People here are very supportive of people needing time to sort themselves out and find what God is calling them too - which may well mean affirming aspects of their lives that some people would consider sinful. I've learnt that there is plenty of room in the Kingdom of God for a wide range of people.

Alan

Posted by Erin (# 2) on :

You know, Tom, most of the time I feel that way, but when I'm feeling particularly discouraged and unmotivated to do things around here, I invariably run across one of those posts and it renews in me the need for what we do.

I don't pretend that I can overcome the outright hate and bigotry to which some people cling madly. I am content, though, knowing that some lurker might be out there who will see that there really are Christians out there who leave the judging to God.

Posted by incurablyGeek (# 3207) on :

Changed my mind? Can't think of anything particular.

Expanded my my mind? Yes, in many ways. It is so cool to be able to receive the perspectives of Catholics, Orthodox, various stripes of protestants and Anglicans and so forth and discover an essential commonality: a desire to live a life pleasing to God. How we figure out WHAT is pleasing and the journeys there and onward is interesting and eddifying.

This place represents what I read Jesus saying in John 17:

quote:

20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

The world sees God through what transacts here. I see God every day in the concern and love expressed here -- even in the heated exchanges.

Blessings,
Mark

Posted by Nightlamp (# 266) on :

Big Al and Brojees your behaviour on this forum suggests that you know the Bible well, which is to be commended. Can I suggest that living it as the next step you might find Matthew 7:5 very helpful. Brojees you may condemn flame baiting but unfortunately you have constantly engaged it since you started here, as has Big Al on this thread.

I quite happy to forgive you because I see that you are both young in faith and probably both young in years as well.

Posted by Nightlamp (# 266) on :

Brojees and big al I have called you both into Hell for an apology for your attacks upon all the posters here. I don't think you are up to apologies but then I may be wrong.

Posted by tomb (# 174) on :

What have I changed my mind on because of my exposure to the SoF?

I am continually reminded that shared experience/culture is more important than shared language for understanding.

I am continually reminded of how parochial my views are--if for no other reason than that I'm confronted with the parochial views of others, and it's easy to conclude that mine are just as stupid as theirs.

I have learned that putting faces to people is very important; that face-to-face interaction is an absolutely critical factor in understanding the humanness of others. I'm less nasty to people I have met and more forgiving.

I have learned that most "faith traditions" consist of 5 parts culture, 4 parts ego, and 1 part God--if you're lucky. I have learned to be forgiving of that and trust God.

I have learned that there is an Absolute Truth, but that God shields us from ever knowing what it is, because it would just give us more reasons to hurt each other. It is a mercy that He refuses to disclose His face to us on a regular basis. And I have learned to be content with that. At least for now.

Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Phil Williams:
Hence Liberals learn to respect evangelicals and vice versa.

Liberals and evangelicals, of course, being the sole inhabitants of the universe?

Reader Alexis
(who is neither)

Posted by linzc (# 2914) on :

quote:
Originally posted by tomb:
I have learned that there is an Absolute Truth, but that God shields us from ever knowing what it is, because it would just give us more reasons to hurt each other. It is a mercy that He refuses to disclose His face to us on a regular basis. And I have learned to be content with that. At least for now.

Great post tomb. [Not worthy!]

I have now learned something else on the SoF.

Posted by Ley Druid (# 3246) on :

I don't see what's wrong with Florida.
No hay que tenerle miedo a los tiburones.
There are cultures here in which cowardice is not associated with manliness.
The fishing is actually quite good, you just have to use the right bait.

Posted by Nunc Dimittis (# 848) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad:

quote:
Originally posted by Scot:

quote:
Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad:
We're all lost causes?
I am. It'll take a miracle to save me.

Oh wait...

What, you mean we're not saved by our good works and fervent worship of the Blessed Virgin?

(Must stop reading Jack Chick threads...)

JL, you left out praying to the saints and the possibility of buying our way out of Purgatory with indulgences. Oh. And the cannibalism of the Mass...

Didn't those nuns bring you up right? [Big Grin]

Posted by sophs (# 2296) on :

I've learned that Americans are not nasty people!
Since i was very little i have been brought up to believe that America/Americans we evil...
And i'm gradually learning that not all parents are evil and want to hurt kids, which is a big step for me!

Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :

I've learned that 'The Bible says...' is the start of a discussion, not the end of one.

And that God is a lot bigger than my experience of Him.

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

As a parallel to what Louise wrote above, I have to confess that I tended to perceive liberals as not 'proper Christians' before coming to SoF. Having trod these boards for some 9 months, I realise that the liberals on the Ship possess a faith and relationship with the Lord which is just as deep, valid, loving, thoughtful etc, if not more so, than my own. Doesn't mean to say I think you're right though [Devil]

- indeed, I have found that whilst I enjoy engaging and dialoguing with other traditions and thereby learning from those, my own tradition and it's 'rightness'for me (IMHO of course [Big Grin]

) has been affirmed.

So, thanks, Shipmates [Sunny]

Yours in Christ

Matt

Posted by Gracia (# 1812) on :

from linzc:

quote:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by tomb:
I have learned that there is an Absolute Truth, but that God shields us from ever knowing what it is, because it would just give us more reasons to hurt each other. It is a mercy that He refuses to disclose His face to us on a regular basis. And I have learned to be content with that. At least for now.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Great post tomb. I have now learned something else on the SoF.

Ditto, Tomb - thanks for that.

Posted by Laura (# 10) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Wood:

quote:
Originally posted by Scot:

quote:
Originally posted by Jesuitical Lad:
We're all lost causes?
I am. It'll take a miracle to save me.

Oh wait...

Amen.

And Amen again.

The ship helped me through what I hope was the last gasp of spiritual blockage -- the world-centeredness of the "God-can't-exist-and-also-be-good-because-children-die-in-Africa" point of view. Feeling unstable in theological disputes on my favorite board has caused me to enroll in an EFM* class this year. I thought I was relatively well-schooled in theology, and am being swiftly disabused of that notion. At center, the community here has supported my faith by making me more at peace with being a skeptic and also a believer -- and convinced me that these two things are not opposites, but complement each other.

*EFM, or Education for Ministry is a four-year seminary-level theology curriculum for lay-people done in seminar-style and offered through extension from Sewannee. Groups are led by mentors who have been through the program.

[ 29. October 2002, 01:49: Message edited by: Laura ]

Posted by Hooker's Trick (# 89) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
On a completely unrelated tangent, I discovered a liking for gin Which I'd never have bothered to develop otherwise.

Tubbs

Praise God from whom all fermented juice of the juniper flows!

Posted by bessie rosebride (# 1738) on :

I've learned that Church Tradition is not a long slide into an out. I've come from a world where if anything is not exactly lined up with a Bible verse or two, then someone is quickly calling it a heresy.

Now when I'm asked if something is "scriptural" I just smile....(I was just asked today if my Russian Orthodox cross, that I've been wearing since my Chrismation, is "scriptural". - because of the 3 bars.) [Smile]

Posted by duchess [green] (# 2764) on :

I leanred that many people on the ship think I am crazy since I pick Fosters over Guinness, even some Australians. [Ultra confused]

If and WHEN I ever make it over to other ship's shores...I WILL order that Fosters and drink it in front of y'all, sip by sip.

And this comes from somebody who went to the Guinness factory in Dublin and drank a Guinness there. [Devil]

Posted by Stoo. (# 254) on :

quote:
Originally posted by duchess [green]:
If and WHEN I ever make it over to other ship's shores...I WILL order that Fosters and drink it in front of y'all, sip by sip.

You will not.

I have many ways of stopping you.

Posted by duchess [green] (# 2764) on :

You are just saying that. IRL, you would just watch me finish my meal (probably fish and chips or whatever the pub had...) and then see me discreetly go off and order a fosters, and I would sip it loudly and then say "A nice meal and a half pint of fosters..." then you would remember I ordered a fosters...but it would be too late since I talked about this over a year ago and you have long forgotten.

Posted by multipara (# 2918) on :

Duchess-only a half pint(imperial, not US) of Foster's!!!!?????

The only way to drink the stuff is out of a 375 ml can (approx 3/4 of an Imperial pint and in a glass known as a schooner; the 285 ml half pint glass is called a middy and any red blooded Aussie who asked for this would be considered to be a bit of a sheila).

I promise you there are much better Antipodean beers than that catpiss-even Steinlager (the NZ stuff).

If you ever find yourself on these shores go for a Cascade-from Tasmania and a great drop.

cheers,

m

Posted by Duo Seraphim (# 3251) on :

quote:
Originally posted by multipara:

I promise you there are much better Antipodean beers than that catpiss-even Steinlager (the NZ stuff).

If you ever find yourself on these shores go for a Cascade-from Tasmania and a great drop.

Steinlager is only one step up from catpiss. I agree with multipara on the subject of Cascade but James Squires is a better drop.

None of them are worthy to approach Black Sheep Rigwelter.

I have changed my mind on participation in Hell (the bulletin board, as opposed to the unquenchable fire and the worm that does not die.)

Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :

Well here goes – my first ever post on a SOF board! [Help]

Thought I’d choose a nice uncontroversial one to start with!!! (though I’m interested to see even this one’s getting a bit hot under the collar sometimes [Flaming]

!).

As a newcomer I can’t really say my mind’s been changed yet by anything, but having lurked around for a bit and read several of the threads (mainly here in Purgatory) I think I’ll probably end up echoing the comments here about enjoying and learning from other perspectives, being challenged to think about why I believe what I believe, and being open to and respectful of perspectives other than my own. I think as well I’ve found in a few threads a number of people who’ve articulated things which I’ve vaguely wondered about but not had the right words to think through fully by myself, so I suspect that rather than changing my mind I’m going to find this site will clarify my thinking on those issues where I’m still a bit woolly!

At the end of the day, I suppose we’ve all got lots to give and lots to learn from each other (aaaw, how wholesome, I sound like I’ve stepped off the set of Little House on the Prairie [Angel]

), and this seems to me like the ideal place for that.

BTW – call me old-fashioned, but I’d personally go for Guinness over catspiss any day [Sunny]

Posted by Scot (# 2095) on :

Welcome aboard, Jack the Lass!

Let's see... you like Guinness, you can laugh at yourself... you should fit in just fine as soon as we disabuse you of the strange idea that we can learn anything from each other. [Big Grin]

scot

Posted by Clyde (# 752) on :

Welcome aboard Jack the Lass,
In the next few days you will be getting your mop and bucket and you main duties initally will be 'Swobbing the decks'. I'm afraid that you may be so tired each day after these duties that you won't care what is being said on the Boards.
Hope that you enjoy being with us.

Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :

Thanks for the welcome Scot and Clyde! [Sunny]

I think I'm gonna enjoy this place! Scot I'm fully expecting to be irritated beyond belief as well as heartwarmingly enlightened (hopefully more of the latter than the former), and Clyde I'm rubbish at housework so am not holding out too much hope for a clean ship whilst I'm on deck-swobbing duties. Hopefully I can graduate to rum-swilling before too long though [Big Grin]

Posted by Erin (# 2) on :

49 more posts to go.

Posted by duchess [green] (# 2764) on :

I have noted you picked the SMILEY emoticon, Jack the Lass which cancels out my irritation (at you and everybody else) calling my beloveded Fosters "catpxxxs".

Welcome. [Sunny]

Posted by Phil Williams (# 812) on :

Sorry Duchess.
Fosters is as close to the unforgiveable sin as it gets in my book.
Come to Yorkshire. I'll buy you a pint of Timothy Taylor's Landlord.
The editor of the CAMRA guide (the Bible of the Campaign for More Real Ale, one of the most successful pressure groups ever) once described it 'like angels dancing on my tongue'.

So it's perfectly theological.

Aussie gas-**** so-called beer.
My arse!

[Puke]

If you're going to drink lager, at least try German, Belgian or Czech versions.

Me, I stick to real ale.
Unless I'm in Germany.

As for Guinness.
The way they brew it these days we see the sad demise of a once great pint ... [Waterworks]

Phil

Posted by Bonzo (# 2481) on :

These boards make me think, give me hope and challenge my prejudices.

Having said that, they confim that Christians are sometimes just as nasty as anyone else.

There is a spiritual battle for hearts and minds, in which we find ourselves. I'ts so easy to give in to the instinct to hit back when we have been attacked. Something, of course, I never do [Wink]

On the whole, the kind, caring, tolerant voices drown out the spite.

Posted by ThatsMrJuice2U (# 3076) on :

Having grown up in the city that has given the world such atrocious rice-water as Budweiser, Busch, and Bud Light [Puke]

, I am eternally grateful for my enlightened ship mates as well as other fine British friends of mine for introducing me to many fine British and European beers, and the true King of beers, Guinness! [Happy]

I also have been advised by my Australian friends to steer well clear of Fosters! [Eek!]

Posted by FCB (# 1495) on :

For true theological beer drinking, Belgium is the only place. I'm convinced that the abbeys of Chimay and Westmalle received their recipes from angelic messengers. But the holy grail of abbey beers is Westleveren: they have no distributor, so you actually have to make a pilgrimage to the abbey to buy the beer.

Plus, Belgian abbey beers range between 8-12% alcohol, so a little goes a long way.

American lagers, on the other hand, is what people in hell have to drink when they've been especially bad.

FCB

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

What about Leffe and Hoegaarden; they're my preference [Smile]

Yours in Christ

Matt

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
What about Leffe and Hoegaarden; they're my preference

Yours in Christ

Matt

You're obviously an expensive date [Razz]

Tubbs

Posted by Alan Cresswell (# 31) on :

I have learnt how easily a discussion on just about anything can be turned into a discussion on beer.

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:

quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
What about Leffe and Hoegaarden; they're my preference

Yours in Christ

Matt
You're obviously an expensive date

Tubbs

Yes, but worth every penny [Big Grin]

Matt

Posted by Gambit (# 766) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I have learnt how easily a discussion on just about anything can be turned into a discussion on beer.

Especially when certain people are around.

Go on Alan, wear your shipmeet face!
[Big Grin]

There it is!

Yours (in a loving xn way)

Gambit

Posted by BigAL (# 750) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
Brojees and big al I have called you both into Hell for an apology for your attacks upon all the posters here. I don't think you are up to apologies but then I may be wrong.

Your mabyes right I won't apologise for what I said. I have no connection with Brojees.
I was summarising, in a summary it is important to be brief. What I was infering in my statment was I find some of you misuse/ignore the bible in an alarming way (as I percieve) therefore I struggle to to see their points of view. I take Peters view ... all Scripture is useful... that includes the sections I don't like that challenge my way of life. Doesn't mean I live up to them but at least I accept them.

PS I am not a troll, my intention was not to cause offence but to share that I find some peoples views hard to accept or see a biblical basis for. I have yet to notice a memberr who share the same view that I do on many topic let alone most.

The term Lost causes is a term by which I mean difficult to make you change your mind due to the limitations of board communications. As in it is a lost cause me arguing with you because our opinions are so different.

Posted by Wood (# 7) on :

quote:
Originally posted by BigAL:
What I was infering in my statment was I find some of you misuse/ignore the bible in an alarming way

But hang on... aren't you the guy that defended the Rapture as a doctrine?

[Ultra confused]

Posted by JimT (# 142) on :

BigAl,

Is there an organization, denomination, or writer with whom you are in sympathy or do you consider your views unique? In other words, do you find views like your own somewhere other than SOF? If so, is there a Web site or book we could refer to in order to get a better understanding of your beliefs?

Posted by Ham'n'Eggs (# 629) on :

BigAL -

I don't think that you are a troll. I certainly don't think that you have been stating anything other than genuinely held beliefs, and that you have been consistent in this whilst you have been on the boards. I have never seen you causing any disruption. I have seen you mocked a great deal.

I cannot see that you should be reproached for giving me a straight answer to a straight question. I did start another Purgatory thread to give you the opportunity to put your case.

I don't think that the Big Al seen talking to Brojees on another website was you, as they displayed a different amount of knowledge of theology, and their spelling was very different to yours.

I think that the boards would be the poorer without you.

H&E

Posted by Phil Williams (# 812) on :

Sorry to be pedantic BigAl, but it was the apostle Paul, not Peter, who wrote that 'all scripture is useful' (2 Timothy 3:16).

That is, if we accept that Paul actually wrote Timothy! [Big Grin]

I'm happy to accept Pauline authorship by the way.

Phil

Posted by St. Sebastian (# 312) on :

This doesn't really count as changing my mind, I don't think, but I would never have become Orthodox if not for the Ship.

Posted by Scot (# 2095) on :

hmmm...one...two...three...

[scot counts on fingers, realizes he is running out]

I'm beginning to realize that the Ship is a most effective outreach for Orthodoxy. Perhaps Simon should consider sending them an invoice?

However, the conversions must stop before we get to 21 and I run out of fingers and toes. [Big Grin]

Posted by kenwritez (# 3238) on :

In my short time here, I've learned several things:

+ Don't screw with Erin

+ Over-reaction is a way of life for some posters

+ The Body of Christ is infinitely more varied than ever I had believed.

+ Kindness is an underrated virtue.

I've also changed my beliefs about some key things:

+ People who hold doctrinal beliefs contradicting mine aren't mad, bad or stupid--they only *seem* that way. [Paranoid]

+ I discovered I can like and even respect people with whom I disagree, such as Linzc, Rook, RuthW, and Erin, to pick four at random among many others, yet I both like and respect them.

+ I'm more willing to admit I can be wrong about an issue, that I may not have all (or even most of) the facts. Laura, Inanna, Jesuitical Lad and Fr. Greg (among others whom I can't remember at the moment) have shown a breadth of knowledge and history that has shown me that much of my own "knowledge" of early church history is based mostly on hearsay and tribal knowledge, not actual research.

+ Liberals Are Not Evil. (I'm struggling mightily to refrain from adding some smartass comment like, "...Not Totally, Anyway." However, my better self prevails.)

+ Church history is more important than I thought it was. (I can't see me ever converting to Orthodox or RCC, tho.)

Thank you to all the Shipmates who've helped me walk a bit further in my journey.

Posted by linzc (# 2914) on :

quote:
Originally posted by kenwritez:
+ I discovered I can like and even respect people with whom I disagree, such as Linzc, Rook, RuthW, and Erin, to pick four at random among many others, yet I both like and respect them.

Why thank you kind sir! And to all the others who have contributed to this thread - even the Fosters drinkers. [Wink]

I guess another thing I have changed my mind about on SoF (actually its probably a new thought rather than a change) is the usefulness of a place like Hell (the board one, not the other hypothetical place). I am now wondering whether some similar sort of mechanism could be used IRL groups rather than all the delicate mincing around we tend to do. Or would it screw up the relationships too much? Perhaps this is another thread. I'll think some more.

Posted by BigAL (# 750) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Wood:

quote:
Originally posted by BigAL:
What I was infering in my statment was I find some of you misuse/ignore the bible in an alarming way
But hang on... aren't you the guy that defended the Rapture as a doctrine?

yeah... I do think there is a teaching of the rapture out there which must be incorrect because the teaching I know at the rapture should in no way cause the reaction it did when I brought it up some months ago. Although I do admit I can't defend it as vigourusly as I would like, I still have homework to do in that department but once I have I will be back.

My point above was more refering to ignoring pauls teaching or any book of the bible for that matter. Also I really hate [Mad]

the idea of you don't need to trust jesus cos we're all going to heaven anyway. That *to me* is real nasty peice of deception if you believe that idea then you are taking a risk. Trusting Jesus and believing in some "odd" teachings may cause you to waste time/effort but not cause you to miss out on Eternity with Jesus.
(please see the principle not the example)

Posted by Wood (# 7) on :

quote:
Posted by BigAl: ... I do think there is a teaching of the rapture out there which must be incorrect because the teaching I know at the rapture should in no way cause the reaction it did when I brought it up some months ago. Although I do admit I can't defend it as vigourusly as I would like, I still have homework to do in that department but once I have I will be back.

I meant, since the doctrine of the Rapture is an appalling misuse of Holy Scripture and a blatant violation of Christ's Gospel of Grace as preached by Jesus, Paul and the Apostles, Augustine, Wesley, and many, many others, I felt it was a bit rich to accuse everyone here of abusing scripture.

Posted by BigAL (# 750) on :

quote:
Originally posted by JimT:
BigAl,

Is there an organization, denomination, or writer with whom you are in sympathy or do you consider your views unique? In other words, do you find views like your own somewhere other than SOF? If so, is there a Web site or book we could refer to in order to get a better understanding of your beliefs?

I attend a brethren Church which is quite a "strict" type of Church but our main guideline is in contradiction to a post from someone the other day ....

"the bible says...is the end of the argument" (ish) obviously this doesn't fully hold true, the fact is says we should stone those who commit adultary etc..doesn't hold true anymore as this is an old testament teaching (old covenant). So there is a great deal of application but one type we don't go in for is stuff that isn't written down. (Bible legend which explains why letter were written etc.. stuff that isn't in the bible)

Basically at my church the women wear headcovering and don't speak, we have a breaking of bread service each week, no vicar/priest/pastor type person. Those are the big differences between us and other churches.

Before I get flamed... the women thing.. I don't necessarily agree with this fully.. but that is the way that it is. Mainly due to the fact that the it is becoming clear that the women are missing out they aren't getting the same teaching the men, mainly cos they don't turn up to the Bible studies cos they can't contribute. This couldn't be what was intended so perhaps the brethren made a mistake and misunderstood what paul was saying when he said "women should be silent".

P.S. Note for Phil Williams: Paul did write timothy 1 and 2 its Hebrews I think your getting confused with... (I accept my mistake with regard to peter)

Posted by chukovsky (# 116) on :

What have I changed my mind on?

Well I am not going on any more blind dates... [Wink]

but seriously folks... I think I've learned a lot and seen how people's faith can hide behind the trappings of church culture that generally put me off - not quite the same as babybear but similar.

Also I've had my thinking informed hugely on the part of the church I'm very happy to find myself in, namely alt.worship, by listening to people who've had far more experience than me. If you knew this, you would be very surprised that I would do this, but I am trying to!

Posted by BigAL (# 750) on :

quote:
I meant, since the doctrine of the Rapture is an appalling misuse of Holy Scripture and a blatant violation of Christ's Gospel of Grace as preached by Jesus, Paul and the Apostles, Augustine, Wesley,

Explain what you (Wood not anyone else ... just now .. if required I will start a new thread.. )
understand by the teaching of the rapture and how that is a misuse of Scripture..

Posted by Wood (# 7) on :

Thread started.

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

I have learnt more about whisk(e)y.

Posted by Astro (# 84) on :

quote:
Mainly due to the fact that the it is becoming clear that the women are missing out they aren't getting the same teaching the men, mainly cos they don't turn up to the Bible studies cos they can't contribute

Driving past my local Brethern church last week I noticed that they were advertising a woman as the speaker leading at their Sunday evening service. I always thought that teh Roman Catholics would have women priests before the Brethern allowed women to speak in meetings.

Posted by Bongo (# 778) on :

I am no longer apologetic about being a liberal.

Also, I'm a secret, lurkerish fan of RuthW's posts. Laura's and Louise's too. Long may they continue!! [Not worthy!]

Posted by JimT (# 142) on :

BigAl,

Thank you for identifying yourself as a "Brethren" member. One of my aunts is Plymouth Brethren and I attended one of her church services as a child. I never looked into "Brethrenism" until now, and I find that there is a huge array of "Brethren" churches. I read this brief statement of beliefs and this breakdown of Brethren Groups. Also, I read this interesting history. To which branch do you belong?

Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :

I've just thought of something else this site has taught me - even in my very brief encounter with it so far. Have just taken a peek at the October prayer requests on All Saints, very humbling, [Heart]

and prayers for all of you, and it's showed me that although we can debate and argue and disagree till the cows come home, we're all united in our total dependence on God, and in our humanity and care for each other, which is ultimately what a community like this should be all about. [Angel]

And thanks everyone for making me feel so welcome [Smile]

Posted by the famous rachel (# 1258) on :

There are some things I have changed my mind about, and some positions in which I have become more firmly entrenched.

Of the former:

I no longer believe that anglo-catholicism is necessarily ritualistic, or that tat is necessarily a bad thing. However, I still believe there are some (not many perhaps, but some) people/churches who enjoy empty ritual and value tat over God. I have realised however, that anglo-catholic worship can be rich, intense and spirit-filled.

I am also considering my position on universalism.

My position on the gay sex issue was always somewhat sit-on-the-fence-ish, but I now have more considered reasons for my fence-sitting.

Of the latter:

I believe now, more strongly than ever that "tongues-as-a-must" is a damaging, unbiblical and ungodly concept.

On the flip side, I also believe more strongly than ever that cessationism is unbiblical, patronising and isn't even traditional.

Enough?

All the best,

Rachel.

Posted by Unkl Davey (# 2777) on :

I've changed my mind about working up a lather about replying to much of what goes on here, cuz in the end I'm just [brick wall]

Posted by Deserted (# 3035) on :

I have learned that misinterpretation and hyperbole is the rule here on the ship. I've learned that emotional knee jerk responses are more common than reasoned ones and that if you're stuck you can always use profanity. (Watch what you say. Do not expect a reasoned dialogue. The medium is wrong. Threads often may degenerate into profanity or sophmoric sarcasm if you do.)

I have learned that a lot of people must have absolutely nothing to do in their spare time based on the amount of time I find I can spend reading and responding to posts and the amount of time I see others responding. (Give it less of your time. Spend more of it with real people.)

I have learned that it is okay to be a bigoted liberal, but it is not okay to be a bigoted conservative.

I have learned that a lot of people are more inflated with their love affair with higher education and professional status than they need to be perhaps, and that they often use this to validate their often ludicrous opinions.

I have learned that there is nothing like a persons personal projective abilities to get them worked up into a frenzy.

A lot of people have differing ideas on the best beer.

There is a lot more I have learned, but the truths of SOF have been so ingrained into my reality paradigm that i cannot differentiate myself from it enough to identify it as an objective reality seperate from myself. Call in the Deprogrammers!

Posted by Anselmina (# 3032) on :

Oh dear, I appear to be on board a different ship from Deserted! But then I suspect I am one of those bigoted liberals it is okay to be! I also manage to squeeze quite a lot of posts in, so I probably also stand convicted of spending too much time on board - though I could say in my own defence that I do tend to meet, and spend a lot of time, with people (even 'real' people, although I have to admit I can't think of any other sort; aren't all people real?!) and sometimes spending time on the keyboard is the only break I get from meetings, chats, visits, the telephone, etc etc.

Also as a touch-typist it takes no time at all to run off quite long posts, so I'm probably a lot less apparent on the boards than my posts suggest. Nevertheless, I probably ought to go on Ship Fasts from time to time!

Also, unlike poor Deserted, I have really valued hearing other opinions and ideas, sometimes even the ones I disagree with! I think some of my views towards the Orthodox Church have changed somewhat, as I continue to learn more about it. And whenever I feel the occasional bout of hardness of heart setting in towards conservative evangelicalism, I am often reminded of the presence of Christ's truth and light in the posters who represent that tradition, and am appropriately humbled.

Though, critics might suggest that that doesn't mean to say I'm any the less a 'bigoted' liberal, I suppose..... [Frown]

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :

I have reached a different conclusion on the morality of masturbation. I think this is the first real change in my actual doctrine in something like six years. Next on my agenda, though I am approaching it carefully, is women's ordination, though I may or may not change on that.

Posted by Elizabeth of Tenth Street (# 3555) on :

I have learned that not all conservatives are evil folk intent on stopping all social justice in the world.
[/smirking] [Two face]

or are they? [Two face]

[end smirking]

Posted by Unkl Davey (# 2777) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Deserted:
I have learned that misinterpretation and hyperbole is the rule here on the ship. I've learned that emotional knee jerk responses are more common than reasoned ones and that if you're stuck you can always use profanity. (Watch what you say. Do not expect a reasoned dialogue. The medium is wrong. Threads often may degenerate into profanity or sophmoric sarcasm if you do.)

I have learned that a lot of people must have absolutely nothing to do in their spare time based on the amount of time I find I can spend reading and responding to posts and the amount of time I see others responding. (Give it less of your time. Spend more of it with real people.)

I have learned that it is okay to be a bigoted liberal, but it is not okay to be a bigoted conservative.

I have learned that a lot of people are more inflated with their love affair with higher education and professional status than they need to be perhaps, and that they often use this to validate their often ludicrous opinions.

I am in awe.
[Not worthy!]

We've learned the same things, but you articulated it so much better than I could have.
[Not worthy!]

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