quote:

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Originally posted by ChrisT:
But he said if you profess to be a Christian you should not be angry with God, or not for long. Why? Because God is perfect, therefore never does anything wrong, therefore we really have nothing to get angry with him about, and he therefore never needs to be forgiven for anything.

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quote:

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Originally posted by seasick:
I seem to remember someone crying out 'My God, my God why have you forsaken me' which doesn't seem to be a classic expression of praise...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Merseymike:
Yes...I think the problem is whaen we think that God is 'running the Universe' at all. I'm quite convinced that whilst we can look to Him for guidance,that he has left the everyday running of things very much in our hands...

Is that heretical?

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Well, that fits into why I'm left to fend for myself against the viciousness of Mother Nature.

But I tend to agree with the OP to the extent that God is perfect and therefore nothing ever "goes wrong". If this is true, then the running of things can't really be left in our hands - even if it appears that this is the case.
 

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Posted by Aardvark (# 2295) on :
 
Struggling with this one at the moment - a specific prayer I prayed at the beginning of the year has gone unanswered. I'm waiting for direction and guidance, but none seems forthcoming. At the moment my prayers seem to consist of "Answer me you b******", even if I don't actually say it, that's what I feel. But I know that God is big enough and his love is robust enough to take it, just as I still love my 5 year old son when he's throwing a tantrum because he can't have what he wants right now.
 

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Posted by Rowen (# 1194) on :
 
As a hospital chaplain, I advise my patients to read the psalms over and over.... like when their baby dies in dreadful circumstances, or they are in their 7 th admnittance to the pysch ward or whatever.
"Get the anger out" I tell them. "God is big enough to handle it, and he won't stop listening or loving"
 

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Posted by Merseymike (# 3022) on :
 
Nothing really goes wrong.....I find that hard to agree with. I think theres plenty which goes wrong, and I neither blame nor account God for those things. Neither do I automatically account to Him things that go 'right'.

I find it difficult to conceive of a God who actively intervenes in the world in any sort of directive sense.
 

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Posted by Laura (# 10) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by seasick:
I seem to remember someone crying out 'My God, my God why have you forsaken me' which doesn't seem to be a classic expression of praise...

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quote:

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My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
2 O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.
3 But thou art holy, O thou that inhabitest the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in thee: they trusted, and thou didst deliver them.
5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered: they trusted in thee, and were not confounded.
6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.
7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.
20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog.
21 Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.
22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
23 Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.
24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee.
28 For the kingdom is the LORD's: and he is the governor among the nations.
29 All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.
30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this.

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quote:

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Originally posted by J. J. Ramsey:
On the one hand, it's horribly unhealthy--and unbibical--to hide anger toward God behind a mask of happy-clappy fake joy. On the other hand, to tell God that he messed up is more than a little absurd, as if one who is of finite mind has a better idea on how to run the universe than one of infinite wisdom. I think it's O.K. to be angry with God, but we need to realize the absurdity of our anger.

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I don't think it is absurd at all. You see, we're not Vulcans who only operate from Logic. We have strong emotions too, and many times these emotions need to be expressed. When I say to God, 'Why have you abandoned me!?' I'm not being literal, I'm expressing how I feel.

In Counselling, it is recognised that much of the emotional healing comes from the RELATIONSHIP of the Counsellor and Counsellee, rather than the logical psychology.

RELATIONSHIPS require that we express our hurt feelings from time to time.

If we vent our honest feelings to God, seeking answers, then our circumstances may or may not change, but our perceptions can. I have a strong belief that in hard times, God is trying to teach us something, He's encouraging us to grow and mature, spiritually.

Scripture states that Jesus was made perfect through His sufferings. If Jesus needed to suffer to attain perfection, well, we do too. I believe God is more concerned with our spiritual growth and eventual maturity, than giving us an easy life. As Paul wrote, the chastening of the Lord is grievous while it's happening, but it yields wonderful results.

Christina
 

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Posted by Arch- (# 982) on :
 
Every-time my mother-in-law speaks haltingly of losing her entire family in the Holocaust and therefore, half of my children's lineage and history having been wiped out, I wonder, really wonder whether real, pain-filled human anger is addressed to God, or just an empty void and all our prayers, all our worship is a cloak to hide a desperate indifference at the heart of the Universe. I think Jesus' cry of desolation was just that-desolation and something of the illusion of God's omnipotence died that day on the Cross.
 

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Posted by pcd (# 3570) on :
 
Adrian Plass writes really helpfully about hs in When you walk and the second of his diaries. I once got [actually more than once] furious with god about the awful fate of some missionaries. After a couple of days the following occurred to me. awful things have always happened to good people and if I were going to take issue about that and walk away I could have not bothered to become a christian in the first place.And then that any compassion I have probably comes from Him.
I have once had spectacular answer to prayer that was more of a tantrum than a prayer and once had the beginings of an anwer about a prayer that was so completely unanswered that I thought I couldnt go on with my faith.........Honesty is always the best policy I'm sure.
see also' when i became a christian' by Plass which is available on the web. Assuring you all of my prayers Lucy
 

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Posted by pcd (# 3570) on :
 
ps p****d has got 4 *s
 

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Posted by Sean D (# 2271) on :
 
It could have stood for peed off?

quote:

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Originally posted by ChrisT:
So it's OK to be angry at/with God. Thank crunchie for that! Should it last though? I would love for one day this cloud to lift and for me to say "Hallelujah, I see now that all that darkness I lived in for years has led me to a higher place. Thank the Lord that I went through that". It dosn't feel like that is going to happen, and there are very practical reasons why I beleive not.

<snip>

Basically, how/why/when should you stay angry?

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I believe passionately in the parting of the clouds one day and so on. But my (admittedly not huge) experience has been times of parted clouds and then they cover over again when something else hits the fan. Also, sometimes when I think of Job getting back so much stuff after his suffering I want to know why we still wasn't pissed cos of what he had to go through on the way just to prove a point for God!

As for staying angry I guess even in the midst of the pain it's good to be vulnerable to God and open to his love/healing and so on, and we should be actively seeking to work through our pain or it will consume us. However we shouldn't beat ourselves up if we stay angry as we're not going to be perfect til heaven anyway... I expect when I die there'll still be pain, anger, loneliness and loss in my heart that hasn't been dealt with.
 

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Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :
 
Going back to the first few posts, it’s easy to say we 'shouldn’t' express anger with God (implying that we 'should' be always content and thankful with our lot), but this is the real world. Sh*t happens. I know people are well-meaning and that what they want is for us to be happy and secure in our faith, but it seems to me that some people feel very threatened by honest expressions of hurt or anger. I think the important thing for those of us either going through crappy circumstances, or trying to support and be there for others, is to give space and time for the hurt to be brought out into the open. A friend of mine, many years ago, expressed a lot of doubt and hurt with God, but due to the fact that many of us couldn’t handle it he denied his doubts and spent a lot of time pretending everything was hunky-dory. But eventually he couldn’t deny it any more and has ended up totally rejecting Christianity. If we’d been mature enough then to let him express his hurt and anger, and not just tried to explain it away with trite answers because we couldn’t handle his questions, maybe things would have worked out differently.

On the radio this morning I heard an interview with the minister of the church that the policeman who was murdered in Manchester the other week attended. They were talking about the policeman’s father’s expression of forgiveness towards the murderer, and his prayer that he will find forgiveness in God, and the minister was saying that when he’d been asked by the press this week 'should the church forgive?' he’d really struggled to answer. He also said that, whilst being really moved by the father’s forgiveness, he was working alongside many people who were struggling to come to that conclusion so quickly, if at all, and that it was not his job to force them to express something that they don’t yet (and may not ever) feel or believe, but help them to work through the anger and pain in their own time. I was really pleased to see that there are still sensitive, realistic people like that working in the church, sometimes I have wondered where they’ve all gone.

I wish there was an easy answer to the 'how long' question - maybe next week, maybe not this side of heaven (as Sean just put it). But Chris I know that in this and other threads you've expressed that despite current circumstances you're questioning your faith more than ever which to me, in itself, is a sign of hope.

I've just reread that last sentence and am now worried that I sound really patronising and happy clappy - I'll keep it in as I mean it, but Chris I never meant to patronise

I can't help thinking that coming to a "Praise the Lord I'm so pleased I just went through all that" isn't particularly realistic (this isn't aimed at Chris by the way, just some more random thoughts for general consumption) - but I do think that God would be happy enough with a "I don't know why all that had to happen, I don't understand it and wish I hadn't had to go through it, but at least I'm still here and still trying to hang on to you God".
 

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Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :
 
Sorry for the double post.

quote:

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Originally posted by Sean D:
...sometimes when I think of Job getting back so much stuff after his suffering I want to know why we still wasn't pissed cos of what he had to go through on the way just to prove a point for God!

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quote:

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Originally posted by ChristinaMarie:

quote:

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Originally posted by J. J. Ramsey:
On the one hand, it's horribly unhealthy--and unbibical--to hide anger toward God behind a mask of happy-clappy fake joy. On the other hand, to tell God that he messed up is more than a little absurd, as if one who is of finite mind has a better idea on how to run the universe than one of infinite wisdom. I think it's O.K. to be angry with God, but we need to realize the absurdity of our anger.

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I don't think it is absurd at all. You see, we're not Vulcans who only operate from Logic. We have strong emotions too, and many times these emotions need to be expressed.

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quote:

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I think theres plenty which goes wrong, and I neither blame nor account God for those things. Neither do I automatically account to Him things that go 'right'.

I find it difficult to conceive of a God who actively intervenes in the world in any sort of directive sense.

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I'd tend to agree with MerseyMike about this.
But in my experience this has meant that after becoming hurt, upset, angry and disillusioned I have quickly given up on questioning God about it. And perhaps even on God. I struggle to keep that connection. Probably because of this personal bias I think anger - however long it goes on - is healthy in that it is dealing honestly with the matters at hand and keeping the relationship open (even if painfully). Who can say if continuing to struggle with God will ever change things. Perhaps it will be a lifelong struggle but who knows.

I've certainly found forgiveness to be a process rather than something that you just do and then get on with life. When I say I forgive someone who has done real and lasting damage the work isn't done then. That is just a commitment to walk that path. Perhaps I'll always be walking it.

I've found the other posts on this thread thoughtful and valuable. Thanks.
 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
I'm not sure that it *is* absurd to be angry with God.

We live in a rough world. We may find some reason to believe in a deity, who may be involved with us, for good or ill. That does not change the fact that sh*t happens.

If God did create us, then She's responsible for all the potential fallout from that--and prayer's the complaint box!
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 


Golden key, that's sig worthy!
 

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Posted by mother hubbard (# 640) on :
 
If I’m not allowed to rant and rave at God, then I'm not playing! Anger, rage, fury, disappointment, fear, and pain are as much a part of who I am as laughter, cuddles and love. Given that I have a teenage daughter and one who’s nearly a teenager , a husband who is about as much use as… .well, chose one from the old thread (but make it a rude one!) …. I have cr*p up to my eyeballs and more backing up waiting for its turn, perhaps the anger & stuff makes up more of who I am.
BUT.
IF God is our heavenly parent, all-knowing… la-di-da…
THEN like I love my girls even after what they just managed to do,
SO God still loves me when I throw a paddy
That’s my logic anyhow
 

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Posted by Karin 3 (# 3474) on :
 
I think it's OK to say to God, "I feel angry", "I feel confused" or even "I think you've really let me down" and words to such effect. I'd even go so far to say that God won't mind you swearing a bit, as long as it's not directed at him, but more at the situation. I'm sure he'll understand.

I'm not sure it's OK to call God names or swear at God, though. Jesus taught us to respect the name of God: "Hallowed be Thy name". Still, I think it's important to respect other people, too, so I could be in a minority.
 

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Posted by ChrisT (# 62) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Jack the Lass
<snip>A friend of mine, many years ago, expressed a lot of doubt and hurt with God, but due to the fact that many of us couldn’t handle it he denied his doubts and spent a lot of time pretending everything was hunky-dory. But eventually he couldn’t deny it any more and has ended up totally rejecting Christianity. If we’d been mature enough then to let him express his hurt and anger, and not just tried to explain it away with trite answers because we couldn’t handle his questions, maybe things would have worked out differently.</snip>

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quote:

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Originally posted by Karin 3:
I'm not sure it's OK to call God names or swear at God, though. Jesus taught us to respect the name of God: "Hallowed be Thy name". Still, I think it's important to respect other people, too, so I could be in a minority.

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quote:

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I would argue that it is more respectful to actually express what you are feeling than to pretty it up with niceties and soft words.

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Over the last year I have used some of the worst language of my life, directed at God. I'm not proud or happy with that - but as he knows where I'm coming from anyway does it matter? If that stuff is in me I would rather get it out than leave it festering.

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Chris, I certainly agree you should let it out rather than let it fester. I just wonder if you vent your spleen too enthusiastically it could have a detrimental effect. Maybe I'm just repressed, but I think there is a danger in expressing your anger too violently. For a start you are shifting all the blame onto God, aren't you? I think it's important to accept our part of the blame. If you call God a load of nasty names doesn't that colour the way you see God? I should think it's also possible to get addicted to the feelings of strong anger.

However, I am not you and I haven't had your experiences, so I could be wrong.

Like all things, I think it is a matter of balance. We should feel able to express our feelings to God, but there are limist on how far we should go in doing that. There is a need for some self-control. On the other hand if we accidentally 'lose it', then like all sins, God will forgive us when we acknowledge it was wrong and say sorry.
 

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Posted by Sean D (# 2271) on :
 
Kelly, you put that really well.

(About time I said something nice to you anyway.)
 

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Posted by Smudgie (# 2716) on :
 
I suppose it depends partly on your use of swearing generally. Some people don't swear at all or only in extremes of circumstance, some as a habit, and most people at some point of the continuum in between. I come in the first catagory, am made uncomfortable by the latter, but that's me and the way I have been brought up and am. I think to swear at God because it is just your habitual way of talking does show disrespect - just as it does when you use that sort of language to someone else simply for the sake of it. To swear at God because it is the only way of expressing the tensed up feeling - why, I'm sure God is big enough to see past the words and into the heart. And better to shout, scream and swear at Him than not to talk at all.

Expressing your anger and confusion to God is all part of communication. Yes, maybe it can become a habit and it needs to be balanced by listening too. But no true relationship with God can exist unless you try to be totally honest with Him.

I find it helpful to think of my relationship with my kids. They have a lot in life to be angry about, being adopted. Part of my role as their adopted parent is to expect that and to let them know it's OK. The likelihood is that I will be the brunt of their anger. I know that, and am prepared for that (though I must say I am not looking forward to it over much!) -if I can do it, weak as I am, how much more can God do it? I want my kids to express their anger and not bottle it, how much more must God want us to do that too?

Also thinking of my Smudgelets. When things go wrong for them (often by their own doing) or they get told off or punished, they react in totally different ways. One might cry a little, but generally shrugs his shoulders and goes along with things. The other rants and raves and has massive tantrums which take all my energy to cope with. But I know which one has taken in the situation most, and I also know which one will later come and just throw his arms round me for a cuddle. I may find the tantrums harder to cope with, but I think they are healthier than the bland acceptance.

I'm generally fairly temperate, maybe even too much so, but I have no problems at all with yelling and even once or twice swearing at God, just because I know how much He loves me.
 

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Posted by ChrisT (# 62) on :
 
Hmm, yes I suppose there is a point at which anger becomes destructive. I'm not sure whether I have reached that point. One hole in a door doesn't count for much in the grand scheme of things, does it? And after years of being anti-anything that I was told was 'wrong' (like swearing) maybe I'm hitting back. The problem with hitting back is you inevitably end up hitting harder.

I don't know others situations, and thank God you don't know mine, but we all deal with things in different ways. Your way is not mine, and mine is not yours. We may not agree with each other, bt we try to get along and understand where the other is coming from.

One thing we have all agreed about in the course of this thread is that anger needs to be expressed if it is to be resolved. Suppressing emotions is untimately destructive, inhibiting and numbing. I don't want to be like that - whether or not I believe there is something better in the future for me. So I am making sure I don't brush anything under the carpet.

This means that I end up going over the same ground a lot, each time (hopefully) sorting out a little more, although it must bore the pants off people I talk to. It also means being honest with myself about what I am feeling. And, of course, tied in with this it means the occasional - or even uite regular - rant at God.

One of the things I like about God is that I can say this awful stuff to him, blame him for everything, even tell him I want nothing to do with him, but he never changes. I've never had a human relationship that will put up with me, but he does. What can I say to that? Anger can't last, even if the situation does.
 

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Posted by Karin 3 (# 3474) on :
 
I can identify with a lot of that Chris. I just go about things differently.

One thing is for sure, God loves you and His love is unconditional...and He is good even if you're not sure about it just now.
 

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Posted by MCC (# 3137) on :
 
I am increasingly aware as I get older that Basil Fawlty , who when I was young seemed ridiculous, mirrors my experience!

Do people remember him clenching his fist, threatening the skies, and shouting "THANKYOU GOD" when yet another thing went wrong.

More seriously, the expression of anger is natural, and safer if directed at God than destructively at other humans (I believe it can be creative with others though!). If it is part of one's working through something painful or infuriating, and as humans many of us go through these at times in our lives, then it is beneficial, imo. If it is just part of one's agrressive, rather than assertive, insistence that one has the right to be angry but nothing else, then it has its dangers- just as it does in any form of life.

I have recently called God a "Bxxxxxd", OK sorry if this offends anyone- I can understand your point. But I would say this, it was in a moment of pain, and honest rather than repressed.

Karan3, thanks for your comments, May I make just one comment. The inclusion of the word "should" in your post is one that I think could be reviewed, "shoulds" are dangerous in my opinion, capable of causing unnecessary shame, unhealthy guilt etc. At the end of the day, let's all look for what enhances life.
 

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Posted by Jack the Lass (# 3415) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Wairua:
I've certainly found forgiveness to be a process rather than something that you just do and then get on with life. When I say I forgive someone who has done real and lasting damage the work isn't done then. That is just a commitment to walk that path. Perhaps I'll always be walking it.

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That is so true, and so helpful. Early on in my Christian experience issues such as forgiveness were presented as essentially black and white - say the word, and everything will be OK kind of thing - but the older I get (like lots of us here I suspect) I'm spending sooooo much more time in the shades of grey areas. Forgiveness came home to me this weekend with a jolt - at a party on Saturday and then again at church on Sunday I bumped into a person who I'd not seen for probably 5 years or so but who had really hurt and offended me several years ago, and I simply could not bring myself to say hello, I just had to walk off because I just couldn't handle the strength of my feelings of anger and hurt. Talking to God afterwards about it, all I could manage was "well I know I should forgive, and in fact deep down I want to, but right now I still can't - please help me." As Wairua said, it's a commitment to walking a path, a process not an instant fix. And learning the hard way, through watching my friend reject Christianity (as mentioned before), I'm determined not to make the same mistake again of expecting somebody to suppress their doubts just because they think it will make me (or "the church") feel better.
 

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Posted by Karin 3 (# 3474) on :
 
Thank you for your comment MCC. As a rule I agree that should shouldn't be used to induce guilt etc. I'm sure from time to time I do use it accidentally in a way that could induce a person to feel guilt or whatever, should they be in the wrong frame of mind. However, having re-read my posts I can't see that the use of the word is likely to have such an effect in the context in which it is used. Perhaps you shouldn't have said that??? I could be feeling terrribly guilty now and possibly wholly ashamed , too!!!!!!!!!!!!

But I'm not

I don't think you should never use should, that would be far too pc for my liking - just use it thoughtfully.

Oh and if I can make one comment, the name is Karin - not Karan.
 

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Posted by J. J. Ramsey (# 1174) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Karin 3:
I just wonder if you vent your spleen too enthusiastically it could have a detrimental effect. Maybe I'm just repressed, but I think there is a danger in expressing your anger too violently.
-- snip --
I should think it's also possible to get addicted to the feelings of strong anger.

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Unfortunately, it is true. The emotional model where bottled-up feelings that need to be let out in an act of catharsis isn't quite correct. Violently expressing our anger can make us even more angry, in spite of the popular wisdom to the contrary.

I am not a psychiatrist (which may not be that much of a liability ), but I suspect the reason that letting it out can be healthy at all is because trying to tell yourself that you are not angry is like trying to tell yourself to not think of pink elephants; one just thinks of one's anger (or pink elephants) all the more, thus getting angrier. It's less about getting it out than it is about being honest with oneself and getting back to not focusing on the anger.
 

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Posted by The one & only Nanny Ogg (# 1176) on :
 
Thank you so much ChrisT for starting this thread. I'd been thinking of doing so myself recently but chickened out.

I'm also P****d off with God - for different reasons (obviously) - and I'm also p****d off with those well meaning Christians who come out with all the platitudes and well rehearsed lines and bible verses in an attempt to make you feel better (or even point the finger at you for being the cause of life being cr*p.

quote:

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Originally posted by ChrisT:
So it's OK to be angry at/with God. Thank crunchie for that! Should it last though? I would love for one day this cloud to lift and for me to say "Hallelujah, I see now that all that darkness I lived in for years has led me to a higher place. Thank the Lord that I went through that". It dosn't feel like that is going to happen, and there are very practical reasons why I beleive not.

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quote:

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should there come a point when I just have to accept what is happening and give up the anger? And is it the same for both God and others.

Basically, how/why/when should you stay angry?

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quote:

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Originally posted by ChrisT:
As to Kellys point, how should we respond to expressions of anger at God, I'm not sure. At some point there must come a releasing of that anger, just as there must in earthly relationships. That will normally involve forgiveness, and some kind of reconciliation.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Karin 3:
Like all things, I think it is a matter of balance. We should feel able to express our feelings to God, but there are limits on how far we should go in doing that. There is a need for some self-control. On the other hand if we accidentally 'lose it', then like all sins, God will forgive us when we acknowledge it was wrong and say sorry.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ChrisT:
One of the things I like about God is that I can say this awful stuff to him, blame him for everything, even tell him I want nothing to do with him, but he never changes. I've never had a human relationship that will put up with me, but he does. What can I say to that? Anger can't last, even if the situation does.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Karin 3:
It is hard to understand why certain things happen and why some people seem to have more than their fair share of "bad luck" , but I'm pretty sure God isn't "cursing" your life. I know God has "the power to turn things around in an instant" in theory, but he just doesn't work like that.

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quote:

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I think it is pretty certain that God loves you and wants the best for you, but your circumstances and the people around you or what ever are not helping your situation. I also think it is safe to say that Jesus is there in the middle of it all with you, but it's hard for you to see him just now. He wants to put his arm round you to comfort you. He weeps with you and he wants you to let him walk alongside you and help you along the way.

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quote:

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I'm not suggesting you feel guilty about being angry with God, but if you were angry with a friend wouldn't you say sorry afterwards?

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If a friend who had done me wrong I'd expect them to apologise and I'd accept their apology.
 

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Posted by Karin 3 (# 3474) on :
 
Sorry Nanny, I'm not being sanctimonuous. I know it's true, but I understand it's hard to believe that at times.

We obviously have very different views of what God is like, so I guess we shall have to agree to differ.
 

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Posted by Fishface (# 2206) on :
 
Nanny

quote:

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Originally posted by The one & only Nanny Ogg:
But – and this is the really painful bit – I feel that God isn’t letting go of me and I’ve nowhere to run. All I can do is get angry whilst I wait for things to change. And that hurts because I then have no freedom to live. If I felt that I had responsibility for my life I could blame myself for all that goes wrong and I would probably feel that I should ask God for forgiveness. The way it stands at the moment I'm a victim of continued circumstance created by others.[/QB]

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Nanny, when life is as sh1t as you descibe it to be, when your heart is filled with anger and pain, you are crushed and powerless, that you say God is hanging on to you stirs a faint flicker of hope for me. When i feel like this the only thing i can hang onto is that it[all this faith stuff]has to be a Footprints thing.He has to be there with us or all of this is crap.I don't get why we have to suffer, intellectualy or spiritually. All I can hang onto is that in my bleakest most desperate moments of pain, if i can dare to think of God, He has provided me with Peace and rest.Through people and in solitude. If nothing else is possible is peace not the greatest gift, the essence of God?

When we roar and wail at God why does he not just give us the antidote to anger? why do we have to ask for it?

NO placation intended, just my contribution to the torment
 

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Posted by ChrisT (# 62) on :
 
This is turning out like one or two other threads. To be honest i know very much how Nanny feels, and the niceties just don't wash when there isn't even a glimmer of hope. And although it is nice to say that the anger must end at some point, and we all know that's true, when the situation isn't ending in any way shape or form, how can the anger. Basically we are being asked to stop being angry and upset, and accept whatever comes our way. That, a lot of the time at least, isn't enough for me.

Like Nanny said, after a while we just want results. No more promises, no more platitudes, no more caring and wan smiles. We just want the crap to end.
 

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Posted by J. J. Ramsey (# 1174) on :
 
I have to admit that I have trouble personally with the idea of being angry at God. I pretty much expect God to act in a way that seems counterintuitive, and God seems to have made it pretty clear that he will let bad and ugly things happen to us. Part of that, I suppose, is growing up with a low-functioning autistic brother, and part of that is having my mind warped by Douglas Adams novels presenting an absurd universe where the riddle to life, the universe, and everything is bad arithmetic.

I guess if you don't expect much from God, it's hard for him to let you down.
 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
Nanny, I'm similarly tortured, and have the same questions.

McChicken, liked your poem.

Re anger in general: Feelings Aren't Bad. What you do with them may or may not be.

Fishface, I get what you mean about being helped through peace--but what do you do when it doesn't come?

JJR, I like Doug Adams' books, too. "42" has gotten me through a lot of rough times, as has the answer that Arthur & Fennie finally found.

But things can get to the point where more and more of you is (metaphorically) chopped off, nothing you do to help yourself works, and you can't get anyone to help. It's crushing. It's where I am--and have been for some time. And, I think, it's hard to understand if you haven't been there.
 

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Posted by Duo Seraphim (# 3251) on :
 
When I first read it, I thought the Book of Job to be one of the harshest things I had ever read, despite the beauty of the writing. In effect, Job is brought low as a result of a capricious bet between God and Satan. Finally, Job, who has suffered undeservedly,while the undeserving have flourished, is angry with God. So he says to God "Explain yourself! Why me?" And the answer, uncompromising in its bluntness, comes back: You're not God, you don't know what I know and you haven't done what I have done.

And there is the hard truth - no platitudes. Bad things happen to good people for reasons we can't understand. We are told things we don't want to hear and suffer accordingly. We are rejected by those we love. We suffer misfortunes - not once but time after time. We don't deserve it, but still it happens.

We don't have the full picture, we don't know what God knows. It's human to get angry with those who hurt us, whether that comes by deliberate act or not. It's human to demand recompense for our hurts or at least an explanation - including from God.

But we'd better be prepared for the answer - the loving answer - that we don't want to hear. No. Not yet. Never. Wait.

And then we have to trust that answer and trust that there will be a way forward. That trust has to be the hardest thing I know of. I struggle with it. I usually fail. The alternative is worse - that the universe is a random, evil place run by a malevolent bastard for His own ends and no-one cares. I don't believe that and so I continue to struggle with trust. Love and trust - what else is there?

Right now, it hurts and in our pain we are angry. Anger, as ChrisT rightly observed, is empowering and intoxicating. It is also addictive, it diverts our energies and distorts our perceptions. So recognise it and let go of it, when and if you can.

So - onwards. I admire your candour, insight and honesty with your emotions, ChrisT, golden key and Nanny Ogg. It's going to carry you through - hard though it is.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Part of the problem with platitludes is that they are probably a result of distance. if I were in a room with Chris, Nanny, and GK, then I would shut the hell up, hold their hands, and cry with them. My mouth woulnd't do a damn bit of good.My prescence, my tears,my hugs might just bring god into the room, but my big mouth would just get me in trouble.

but in print someone can't see the care on your face, or feel your hand. so you grope around for words to make them "Feel Better". Or give them a ten-point program for adjusting their attitude. The result--no offense, anyone--usually sucks.

So, Karin--do you have some thoughts about my earlier question? When a Christian is faced with someone's anger at God, What is the response?
 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Part of the problem with platitludes is that they are probably a result of distance. if I were in a room with Chris, Nanny, and GK, then I would shut the hell up, hold their hands, and cry with them. My mouth woulnd't do a damn bit of good.My prescence, my tears,my hugs might just bring god into the room, but my big mouth would just get me in trouble.

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(hug)
 

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Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :
 
Kelly

Huia
 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
Any interest in being pope, Kelly? I'll nominate you right now!!!
 

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Posted by mother hubbard (# 640) on :
 
kelly, if you don;t mind can i offer a response to your question?
I was standing in the playground waiting for eh kids to come out of school one day. Just minding my own business, waiting for the kids. A woman came literally screaming down the path, lunged at me, grabbed my by the neck and began shaking me and yelling in my face. ‘where’s your F****** God NOW! How can you believe in a god who let’s this happen ….’
You can finish the conversation yourself I expect. I was non-plussed at this totally unprovoked attack, and was shaken even more as several other people joined her, similarly screaming in my face, poking and pushing. It took several minutes before I could make any sense of it at all.
Apparently some deranged person had just broken into a school playground and opened fire on the kids. The first lady to approach me had relatives who lived in a small place called Dunblane.
What did I do with their anger at God? I agreed with them. I even joined in with their anger. Why? Because I thought they had a valid point. And there was no explanation that would make sense of it.
 

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Posted by Rowen (# 1194) on :
 
I think both Kelly and mother hubbard have valid points to make. Years ago, when I was a brand new chaplain, a tragic death occurred in the hospital. I went in, shaking, to the family and said "This is horrible. You must be terribly sad and bloody angry at God." They shouted back "Yes". And that was all we said for 30 mins- I could think of nothing valid to say next, and they cried. Thankfully for us all. Anger expressed... then presence . Years later they met me somehow and thanked me for the wise words of wisdom and love I had given them that night. Whilst grateful for their appreciation, I had to smile inwardly. I think, that in order to make sense of the encounter, in a conventional usual way of Western relationships and "normal" counselling methods, they had remembered words and speaking whilst I knew there was emotion, silence and just being there. And this came from 2 things- my feelings of "not knowing what to say next" and God's using the encounter.
That has been my philosophy as a chaplain ever since. Use descriptive words, and let them rant and moan. Then just shut up and be there for them. Emotion, silence and just being there.
Actually, it is pretty useful for my friends too when they are stressed out by life and God.
I'm not a great chaplain, but I'm learning every day.
 

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Posted by Karin 3 (# 3474) on :
 
Kelly, I joined this thread because Chris was asking what people thought about being angry with God. So I have said that I think it's OK and it's good to express our feelings and be honest with God, but I have reservations about calling him names and giving him verbal abuse. On the other hand I don't think anyone needs to be wracked with guilt if they do so. It is simply a matter of saying sorry at some point in time (once they've stopped feeling so angry). I also said there were dangers in letting your anger get the better of you. I was answering Chris' question, but I am not suggesting I have all the answers. I have learnt to "treasure the questions" recently. I no longer need to know all the answers, I can appreciate that there are some things only God knows the answer to.

However, in answer to your question

quote:

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When a Christian is faced with someone's anger at God, What is the response?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
When I first read it, I thought the Book of Job to be one of the harshest things I had ever read, despite the beauty of the writing. In effect, Job is brought low as a result of a capricious bet between God and Satan. Finally, Job, who has suffered undeservedly,while the undeserving have flourished, is angry with God. So he says to God "Explain yourself! Why me?" And the answer, uncompromising in its bluntness, comes back: You're not God, you don't know what I know and you haven't done what I have done.

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quote:

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We don't have the full picture, we don't know what God knows. It's human to get angry with those who hurt us, whether that comes by deliberate act or not. It's human to demand recompense for our hurts or at least an explanation - including from God.

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quote:

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But we'd better be prepared for the answer - the loving answer - that we don't want to hear. No. Not yet. Never. Wait.

And then we have to trust that answer and trust that there will be a way forward. That trust has to be the hardest thing I know of. I struggle with it. I usually fail. The alternative is worse - that the universe is a random, evil place run by a malevolent bastard for His own ends and no-one cares. I don't believe that and so I continue to struggle with trust. Love and trust - what else is there?

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quote:

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Originally posted by The one & only Nanny Ogg:
True we don't know what God knows but surely a loving God would want to ease out pain not increase it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by golden key:
Any interest in being pope, Kelly? I'll nominate you right now!!!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

Karin, sorry if my post seemed to land on you a little. I guess I was subconciously being overprotective of Nanny.

But the question of how to deal with people's anger at God is important to me,maybe even worth it's own thread and one I wonder if churches really discuss or prepare people for.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The one & only Nanny Ogg:
It's amazing that whenever anyone mentions suffering Job is wheeled out by Christians in an attempt to put things into a Godly perspective - often without thinking that it does more damage than it's worth. When you are hurting the last thing you want is to be told "read Job". That book is best read after painful situations when you are able to put things into some sort of perspective as to what was happening at the time.

It is a mistake to throw that book at people who hurt at present because they want people to understand their real pain not try to rationalise or explain it.

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quote:

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We don't have the full picture, we don't know what God knows. It's human to get angry with those who hurt us, whether that comes by deliberate act or not. It's human to demand recompense for our hurts or at least an explanation - including from God.

---

quote:

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True we don't know what God knows but surely a loving God would want to ease out pain not increase it.

Why does God allow people to lurch from one crisis to another without any break or recovery time?

Why do some Christians live such favoured lives? Surely all Christians should be blessed by God.

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quote:

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But we'd better be prepared for the answer - the loving answer - that we don't want to hear. No. Not yet. Never. Wait.

And then we have to trust that answer and trust that there will be a way forward. That trust has to be the hardest thing I know of. I struggle with it. I usually fail. The alternative is worse - that the universe is a random, evil place run by a malevolent bastard for His own ends and no-one cares. I don't believe that and so I continue to struggle with trust. Love and trust - what else is there?

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quote:

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So what happens when you cannot trust? Trust is difficult to do when it is because you trusted that your life is in a mess. Because you trusted God to help you through and yet prayers are unanswered and situations worsen. Or because you have been hurt by family and friends you trusted.

Trust has to be earned not demanded. If trust is broken the ability to do so again is damaged.

Survivors learn to trust themselves and their instincts because they have no-one left to trust. They need to be in control because do much of their lives have been out of their control.

To ask a survivor to trust anyone - let alone a supernatural entity - and place their lives in the control of someone or something else in the expectation that life will be better is asking them to go against their survival instincts which they have built up over the years.

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I didn't say it was easy. It may not even be possible. But if we are to do more than just survive on our own, then we must learn to trust again, in order to become part of the world and to love, which is all in all.

How otherwise can we accept that a gesture of apparent friendliness, of kindness is truthful and well-motivated,if we cannot make some small step towards trusting the person who offers that gesture? I'm not suggesting uncritical trust here but some small step. If we can't open ourselves up to even that possibility, then we reduce all we meet to to the moral level of those who have hurt us. We are alone indeed, if we can trust no-one but ourselves, for we have denied the possibility that others may want to help us and not harm us.
 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
Mother Hubbard & Rowen
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Duo, thanks for picking up on something. I didn't read karin's posts as platitudes necessarily either (although I remember the thread chris was talking about, and how hopeless it began to feel) I took it as an attempt to provide solace over a medium that makes comfort hard to convey. I was reminded, actually, of sympathy cards.Really. You know when someone passes around a card for someone you know who is bereaved, and you have to write a little something to let them know how sorry you are? And when that happens to me, I always make it really brief, because the enormity of what I wish I could say tends to make everything I attempt sound like tripe.(no tripe here--you know what i mean.Method acting the part of would-be consoler)

So yeah, it's just tough. On both sides.

I would like to add my own struggle with feeling valued by God. Nanny brought up trust. Imagine you have spent your life in an environment that teaches you trust gets you into trouble, trust is a liability, trust is how people get under your skin and hurt you. (I'm decribing my own trust issues now.) Then you reach a point in your life when the only way you can get off of the window ledge is to trust someone. And you realise, with horror, trust isn't there for you to access. It has been beaten out of you. Wouldn't you feel a little like the butt of an elaborate cosmic joke?
And I would like to believe that overcoming this handicap will prove things about me and about God I would have never learned otherwise. Trouble is, it is very, very very very very hard to do that. Ther may be a prize at the top of the mountain, but I can't see it from here--all I see is a huge stinking mountain, covered with rocks and I haven't even got shoes.
So all I really have to offer is "Yeah. I hear ya." With the mustard seed of hope, wish, whatever that God can use that.
{Tangent, sort of)
If you don't think it will derail the thread too much, Ealier todayI was remembering something I blurted out in my College Bible study group about the book of Job; the references here made me remember it.If you want, I wll add it tomorrow. This post has worn me out for now.
 

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Posted by Duo Seraphim (# 3251) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I was reminded, actually, of sympathy cards.Really.

....So all I really have to offer is "Yeah. I hear ya." With the mustard seed of hope, wish, whatever that God can use that.

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My thanks for your kind words, Kelly - and my apologies to anyone, especially Nanny Ogg, who felt hurt by my bluntness.
[memo to self: improve communication]
 

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Posted by Karin 3 (# 3474) on :
 
This thread seems to have raised several issues. The first one is in the opening post: is it all right to be angry with God?

That in turn makes me ask, what do you mean by "all right"? I think God understands our anger, but our anger could well be misguided and God may not like it.

Chris said at one point that he thought being angry at God was less dangerous than being angry with people. I wonder why and I wonder if that is true.

I imagine Chris feels that if he is angry with people he could be physically violent towards them or he could damage his relationship with them (please say if that's not what you had in mind Chris).

However, can't anger with God damage our relationship with God? It is true our God is a forgiving God and a God of grace, but isn't it a bad idea to get into the habit of taking his goodness for granted?

Is God really to blame for the things that go wrong anyway?

It seems that being angry with God means on the one hand you have an image of God as a great big fluffy pussy cat in the sky who will let you do anything to him and never bat an eyelid, and yet on the other hand you think he is some ogre who orchestrates your life to make sure the custard always lands on you.

I think there may have been some other points I wanted to make, but I'm starting to lose track and I think there are enough points to be going on with.

One last thing though. There are times whe we are angry at God or at someone else for no rational reason. In that case it's no good anyone trying to reason with us and it's best if we don't try to rationalise our anger, but admit that we are deeply hurt/confused/depressed or whatever and hold on to God until that time has passed.
 

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Posted by lanky_badger (# 3514) on :
 
I cannot recommend highly enough a book by Philip Yancey, entitled 'Disappointment with God'.

It discusses the questions, "Is God hidden? Is God silent? Is God unfair?".

It is absolutle brilliant. I don't often get along well with Christian books. This book gives an insight into why God behaves in the way He does, and is all biblically-founded.

Please look it up.

And no, I'm not a relative or agent to Yancey ;o)
 

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Posted by Karl - Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
I read it. Found it as much use as a chocolate fireguard.

Sorry.


 

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Posted by The one & only Nanny Ogg (# 1176) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Karin 3:
Thinking of people who are worse off, I wonder what you think of God's attitudes to Christians in the Third World when you say: "Why do some Christians live such favoured lives? Surely all Christians should be blessed by God."

What do you think of God's attitude to those Christians who watch their children die through lack of water, food or medicine etc??

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quote:

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Originally posted by J. J. Ramsey:
The fact that we don't know what God knows is the very reason that we can't be sure that God "would want to ease out pain not increase it," even if he is loving. God could very well have reasons for all the ugly, abominable things that happen, reasons that make perfect sense to him yet are impossible to articulate to finite minds like ours.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Karin 3:
I think you make a good point about churches needing to address people's anger more, whether at God or at other people. Forgiveness is vital, but before a person can forgive they need to work through their anger. Teaching constructive ways to channel anger at God could be another good idea.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
There may be a prize at the top of the mountain, but I can't see it from here--all I see is a huge stinking mountain, covered with rocks and I haven't even got shoes. So all I really have to offer is "Yeah. I hear ya." With the mustard seed of hope, wish, whatever that God can use that.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Karin 3:
However, can't anger with God damage our relationship with God? It is true our God is a forgiving God and a God of grace, but isn't it a bad idea to get into the habit of taking his goodness for granted?

---

quote:

---

Is God really to blame for the things that go wrong anyway?

---

quote:

---

It seems that being angry with God means on the one hand you have an image of God as a great big fluffy pussy cat in the sky who will let you do anything to him and never bat an eyelid, and yet on the other hand you think he is some ogre who orchestrates your life to make sure the custard always lands on you.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The one & only Nanny Ogg:
I think my comments were more towards those in the “developed world” and especially those who believe in the “prosperity gospel” – like God always wants to give blessing to those He calls His own and if you are not being blessed then there is something wrong in your life such as unrepented sin etc etc....

...I found myself having to forgive (though not face to face) in order to move forward. I was told then that not only would God then be able to start healing me but I would then be able to start receiving God’s blessings. I now feel let down because although I felt spiritually better (for a while) my health has got worse and other crises arose. So much for healing and blessings…

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quote:

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Originally posted by The one & only Nanny Ogg:

quote:

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Originally posted by J. J. Ramsey:
The fact that we don't know what God knows is the very reason that we can't be sure that God "would want to ease out pain not increase it," even if he is loving. God could very well have reasons for all the ugly, abominable things that happen, reasons that make perfect sense to him yet are impossible to articulate to finite minds like ours.

---

But doesn’t this make a nonsense of the often quoted verse which is usually said to those going through a rough time - “I know the plans I have for you – plans to prosper you and not to harm you; plans to give you hope and a future”? (Jeremiah 29:11)

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That verse from Jeremiah is one of those that frequently gets quoted out of context. The next person who quotes that verse as if it were a blanket promise for all believers should be dragged out into the street and shot.

That verse was addressed to the Jews that had been exiled into Babylon after Babylonia conquered and plundered the land of Judea as a judgment from God. It was a part of a promise that Judea would be restored again, and that the Jews would return to their homeland. It was never, and I repeat, never addressed to believers in general.
 

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Posted by Rob - ID crisis InDiE KiD (# 3256) on :
 
The Catholic priest who has to comfort Jack Nicholson's character, Warren Schmidt, in the film About Schmidt tells him that it is not wrong to be angry with God, it is best to let it all out. Perhaps people are genuinely beginning to see that God is not (just) some judgemental figure in heaven who despises our anger, but a God of love who wants to hear ALL that we have to say to him...
 

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Posted by MCC (# 3137) on :
 
One more thought.

For those of us who believe, surely it is better to be angry WITH God, than to be angry WITHOUT God. To believe, and relate angrily, than not to believe.

Just a thought.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Rob and MCC--both of your posts wowed me.
 

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Posted by Karin 3 (# 3474) on :
 
Just now I am feeling rather fed up with young men around the 25 year old mark who crop up on bulletin boards and post in a way that comes across as arrogant and immature.

Apologies to all 25 year old men who don't fall into this category, and I appreciate people of any age and either sex can be prone to this.

However, the fact that one or two particular young men happen to fall into that category is vital to the point I want to make.

I was thinking, they probably can't help it, they're young and chances are I was just as bad at their age, BUT then I started to think of three people about the same age who have helped me by having great insights, inspiring me and being humble enough to listen and not think they have all the answers. I feel they have helped me more than most on my "journey" of faith over the last year or so. It struck me that these three young people have all experienced hard times, two of them I know have struggled with God, but not let go of him and have come through with a better and more real faith. They are willing to listen to what other people have to say and can express their disagreement in a way that does not attack the other person. All three seem to feel more compassion than the average person of any age.

So, although it sounds trite to say that going through hard times can make us better people, and it must be really hard to accept that while we are undergoing a great deal of pain, anguish and frustration, I personally think there is some truth in it, and those three young people seem proof of it to me.

But maybe no one will feel able to find that helpful.
 

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Posted by McChicken (# 2555) on :
 
By special request of Nanny Ogg:

_Hound of Heaven_

Out of my confusion, my anger
I cried out to God
Out of my bitterness,
Out of my empty life
I screamed at God.
And He heard me.
God stopped and looked at me.
God heard me.
And I ran.
Run from those eyes
Probing into my soul,
Run, run from those relentless eyes
Destroying all my walls
Penetrating into my darkness.
Run, run from God
Run and stumble
Run and fall and run again.
Run struggling for each breath,
Straining to see through the tears
The mists of fear.
Run from the pursuing God.
Pursuing, pursuing with a vengeance.
Run from those eyes,
Those words that would answer me
Run from the utter desolation that I am.
Run to everywhere, run to everything
Run to nothing
Still He follows
Still His eyes see me
Run to nothing, and collapse.
Give in.
Give in to the pain of knowing.
God pursued me
And I ran to nowhere
God heard me,
He pursued me,
And He laid me bare.
 

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Posted by OutOfTherapy (# 4081) on :
 
Looking for the right thread to resurrect, and maybe this is it. I know I am angry with God, to the point of mostly avoiding him.

Someone I was talking to today talked to me about forgiving God, which I found a very difficult concept. Logically I think that if God is God then he never does anything wrong so there is no point in trying to forgive him.

But she explained a bit and got me thinking that there could be a reason to do this if I'm feeling in a place where I feel like I need to forgive God. Even to make a bit of progress and get past some of the bitterness. I've tried to forgive the people in churches who have disappointed and hurt me. But I'm still bitter at God.

I've read the Philip Yancey book 'Disappointment with God' mentioned above, and I did find it tolerable, which is good for me and Christian literature. He isn't too preachy and is quite real in how he talks about feelings. But more and more as I go back to the book I feel for one main guy Richard mentioned as being completely disillusioned with God.

I couldn't face approaching God today, to forgive him, talk to him or anything. But I maybe got a bit closer. Thanks to a friend in the cell group which I ranted about in my Prisoner Cell Group H thread (the one who wasn't there on Thursday).

Maybe it's worth sticking with it. What do others think? I'm hoping this thread gets going again.
 

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Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on :
 
This thread certainly came along at an opportune moment -- right after the memorial service of yet another cancer victim who died too soon.

Thoughts after the memorial service of one who died too soon

I have an argument with Death; I have a quarrel with his methodology.
It is not the concept itself with which I disagree.
I know that all life must end, from the smallest gnat to the tallest redwood.
I understand the laws of physics.
I realize that the old man may welcome the rasping breath of pneumonia, and that the weary deserve to rest from carrying their loads.
But cancer strikes me as unfair, turning the body against its owner, silently, lethally betraying its own substance, sneaking back when once defeated, striking again until, at last it wins.
In taking those who still have lives to live, words to write, children to rear, music to make and by such unsporting means, Death proves it is the enemy.
God, you talked to Job; please tell me why.
 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
Hugs to OutofTherapy and Rossweisse.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Hey, it's back!

My turn.

Y'all gotta understand that while I believe that God unconditionally loves you and you and you and you, on some level I also believe that I am left out of the loop for some reason. I try to talk myself out of it, but it keeps popping up.

This weekend, after some job search/computer/personal/depression related setbacks, I began cleaning my room, and I found on my dresser a cardboard picture of Jesus I have had since I was kid. Due to the kind of thoughts I was thinking, I looked down at that picture of Jesus with a little white lamb in His arms, and thought,you know what? your just another man I adore and depend on who withholds all approval while handing me full measure of judgement. Isn't that what life is teaching me? that I am deserving of nothing but responsible for every mistake I make? To the point where I am afraid to make a move?
So I put this picture, and some other religious paraphenalia I had scattered about the room, in a small box, which I was planning to stuff in the closet. A twinge of guilt arose when I did this, and I responded, well, Jacob wrestled with you, Lord--consider this me wrestling with you. The box comes back out when I have some sort of conviction that God is personally interested in me.
 

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Posted by Karin 3 (# 3474) on :
 
It is hard when we feel God has lets us down and it's only natural that we should feel angry, hurt and disappointed.

A lot of stuff we are taught about God doesn't help. He's not a magician or sugar daddy in the sky who will just make everything all right. I'm sure He's all powerful and I'm sure He is truly good, so there must be some reason we can't understand why he doesn't just fix everything and make it all OK.

Some of that must have to do with natural consequences, I think, and not just the natural consequences of our actions, but of other people's and of simply living in a "fallen world" (whatever that means), where death and disease and greed and selfishness exist.

I also suspect that one reason God doesn't just zap us and make everything all right is because he wants to teach us to help each other. I think whe He sent Jesus He hoped that Jesus would inspire us to start looking out for each other and stop being so selfish. So I think it's other people who are to blame, not God - but I have been angry with God and I could be angry with Him again: when we are depressed or deeply grieved, for example, we don't always think straight and our feelings can cloud our judgement.

They also say that our idea of God is affected by our fathers. If our father let us down badly we shall have much more trouble trusting God. My dad was very critical and it took me years to shake off the idea that God was equally judgemental and to begin to understand what God's grace and forgiveness really meant. It took me quite a few more years for God's grace to really start to make a difference on my life, and I'm sure there is still great room for improvement, both in my understanding of God's grace and the changes it can bring about in me.

Try to keep faith in the loving heavenly Father Jesus taught us about, with whom Jesus died to reunite us.

I don't know if anyone will find that helpful, but I hope so.
 

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Posted by OutOfTherapy (# 4081) on :
 

quote:

---

while I believe that God unconditionally loves you and you and you and you, on some level I also believe that I am left out of the loop for some reason. I try to talk myself out of it, but it keeps popping up

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quote:

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I also suspect that one reason God doesn't just zap us and make everything all right is because he wants to teach us to help each other. I think whe He sent Jesus He hoped that Jesus would inspire us to start looking out for each other and stop being so selfish. So I think it's other people who are to blame, not God

---

Well maybe. Certainly I blamed other people at first. I tried different churches and tried to forgive people and kept on trying to help other people myself. But all this trying gets hard. Because the church is made up of flawed people like me I eventually decided to cut them/us some slack. I don't feel inclined to cut God any slack.

What is he doing up there? If this is all some grand experiment to see if we can help each other through the results must show fairly conclusively by now that we can't. I mean we try, and I appreciate friendly words and hugs sometimes, but they don't make up for the fact that people talk about having a personal relationship with God and I haven't got one. And I've asked, politely then less politely.
 

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Posted by ChrisT (# 62) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by OutOfTherapy:
What is he doing up there? If this is all some grand experiment to see if we can help each other through the results must show fairly conclusively by now that we can't. I mean we try, and I appreciate friendly words and hugs sometimes, but they don't make up for the fact that people talk about having a personal relationship with God and I haven't got one. And I've asked, politely then less politely.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Maybe if I trust my instincts in this matter it will start making sense.

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quote:

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In the meantime, I think ultimately my actions and my angry prayers demonstrated a lot of faith in God. I certainly never could have talked to my father that way.

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quote:

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I'm not too bothered whether God is up there, whether he loves me, whether he in in control. What I want to see is the people that profess to be followers of his practicing what they preach.

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quote:

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Originally posted by OutOfTherapy:
Chris T, do you really mean this?...

quote:

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I'm not too bothered whether God is up there, whether he loves me, whether he in in control. What I want to see is the people that profess to be followers of his practicing what they preach.

---

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quote:

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I can't figure out how I can come round to forgiving God

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quote:

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How is your faith in God still strong, Chris?

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My faith in God is still strong, as I haven't (yet) been shaken from believing that he exists. As I said my faith in a load of other semi-related things has been shattered. Those things include: the existance of perfect love; that God has a plan for me; that God wants the best for me and my family; that God actively gets involved in our lives; that God protects us from harm and several others.

But then this is a good day, and I've had a reasonable week so far. On bad days no doubt I would have replied with something different.
 

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Posted by OutOfTherapy (# 4081) on :
 
Thanks for your reply Chris, it did make things much clearer and I'm now even more with you. I guess my faith in God, as in believing he exists is still strong, as there's little point in being pissed off with someone who doesn't exist!

Maybe I'll go a bit further and say that I do believe God is in control and that he does have a plan for me. However, that does not help with the being pissed off bit. Saying that God is in control gives me more reason, almost, as it means I can blame him for not intervening when he could. I respect the concept of human free-will etc etc and understand why God lets some bad things happen. What I don't understand is why he would choose to appear so absent, why he would refuse to answer prayers along the lines of getting to know him more or why he would let people feel utterly forsaken when he CAN do something about these things.

Though I frequently doubt that God cares about me I can easily imagine him having a plan for me... it probably goes along the lines of serving diligently here and there and some big time repentance round about now. God having a plan for me doesn't mean I'll like it or comply, he's probably well aware of that.

A friend said to me at the weekend about how God lets us shout at him like a parent/carer would with a hurt teenager, an image that meant a lot as I've worked with some very angry kids. But the end of her image, and what I would want to do for the kids is be there and give them a hug once they've finished ranting. I just can't trust that God would do that for me (he hasn't in the past)so I'm not letting him anywhere near.

I did appreciate her hug though. If I were feeling more charitable towards God maybe I'd give him a bit of the credit for her care and concern, as I think she'd like. But I'm not.
 

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Posted by Uriel (# 2248) on :
 
I have found reading this thread fascinating, and see at the heart of it a desire to overcome the conflict that comes when we try and hold the following, apparently contradictory, beliefs:

1) God loves us
2) God has the power to affect the things that happen to us
3) Some things taking place in my life or that of a loved one are tremendously painful, and persist even though I have prayed to God to act.

Maintaining a Christian worldview and holding all 3 statements as true is very difficult, and trying to hold them together during times of intense suffering is so much harder. I know this as it is a place I have been in for the last year.

A year ago my wife miscarried what would have been our first child. We are still childless. At the same time as this traumatic event, an acquaintance of mine married to a curate was expecting a child. The acquaintance was in labour and there were complications. The doctors reached the point where they felt there was nothing further they could do and the baby was in serious danger. The curate/husband suggested that they all prayed, and lo and behold the complications slowly began to resolve themselves. Two weeks later they returned to their church, with healthy newborn, and everyone said how wonderful God was to have answered their prayers. So where was this wonderful God when I was on my knees praying for some kind of miracle? Why is it that as soon as I prayed things went from questionable to inevitably terminal, while the prayers of others apparently bring such good results.

Theology has to be done in the context you are living in, and your faith has to be true to your experience. So it is that I recognised I had to struggle with the age old problem of suffering, that is how can a good and powerful God remain silent to the calls of his children when they are suffering. Here is where I am up to so far...

The Free Will Defence (God permits suffering when it is due to someone's free choice, e.g. acts of terrorism) does not hold in my situation as there is no immoral action to point to that caused the miscarriage - it is just the vagaries of human biology.

The maturation argument (God permits suffering because it contributes to our maturing and becoming more fully human) is also questionable. When I broke up with my girlfriend when I was 16 I was very hurt, but that pain helped me become a more mature individual and I can thank God for the lesson it taught me. But I find it hard to believe that there is any lesson valuable enough that causing the extinction of a newly formed life is deemed a worthwhile price for it to be learned. Neither can I accept that the few shreds of good to come out of the situation (such as becoming much closer to my wife) are worth the cost of a life ending, particularly when you try and work out the ethical calculation from the point of view of the embryo who died.

The tentative conclusion I have so far reached is that Christianity has been hampered by misunderstanding the nature of God's omnipotence. To say that a being can do anything does not mean that it can do anything we can imagine. God could not make a square with three sides, because if he did it would be a triangle. Even an omnipotent being cannot do those things which are internally self-contradictory. The Free Will Defence, for example, is based on the fact that God cannot make beings that are both pre-determined in their actions yet free to choose, for such a being could not logically exist.

My current hypothesis is that God has established immutable scientific laws to govern the physical interactions of the universe, and that the sort of universe we live in necessarily needs such laws to permit its everyday functioning. God has therefore self-limited himself not to violate those laws on occasion for to do so would bring in a contradiction - we can't have immutable scientific laws that are also occasionally unstable. So if you pray for rain and it rains, it isn't because God heard you and caused rain to fall, it's just that you got lucky with your timing and the physical laws controlling the weather made it rain anyway.

This view of a God who does not directly intervene with the physical interactions of the universe may not be acceptable to some who want to believe in direct healing and other such miracles. Such a view, however, does imply a partial and fickle God who chooses to heal some while remaining idle for others. I state this because I have to be true to my experience of God's silent inactivity in my hour of greatest need. If he genuinely does answer prayers for direct healing, why does he only answer some?

Note that so far I have only talked of a God who is not able to directly interfere with the physical world. I still believe in the Christian God, and belive that his interaction in the world is through those people who align himself to his will. The purpose of prayer is not to ask God to do magic tricks, but to influence mental/emotional/spiritual states and in doing so inspire us to act in the world as the hands of God. While it would be futile to pray for food to miraculously appear on plates before the starving of the world, it would be appropriate to ask God to be with those helping the hungry and to guide oneself in knowing how to contribute.

Sorry that this has been a long post - it's taken me a year and a lot of tears to get this far. It's not something I talk about much, and wasn't sure whether to write about it on the Ship. I would love to hear if anyone has any comments on my analysis - I'm not entirely comfortable with it (it implies a strongly dualistic mind/body split, it also requires a radical reappraisal and maybe rejection of some of the biblical miracle passages), but it's the best I can do while keeping true to the wholly awful experience of losing a pregnancy.

Cheers,

Uriel.
 

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Posted by OutOfTherapy (# 4081) on :
 
Uriel,

I want to comment on what you said but it is hard, especially as I cannot claim to have a clue how you feel. Forgive me if any of what follows loses sight of the painful reality.

I guess I've come to conclusions about suffering that reflect the state of the fallen world we live in. In a perfect world no-one would die or lose a child. Since this is a far from perfect world sometimes these things do happen, and to Christians pretty much just as much as anyone else. This fits as logical in my brain. Being 'saved' does not, in my opinion, grant any special exemption from pain and suffering on earth. If people saw that Christians escaped any suffering then they might become Christians just to avoid such painful circumstances. Instead they see Christians struggling with pain and suffering, with horrible situations, and on a good day they see some sign of faith or comfort in God. But being real about the painful angry feelings could also be a good witness, as could seeing friends support each other.

I have no idea if God sometimes does intervene, and how he chooses when to do so. Medically some fluke healings do happen, with or without the influence of God so I would still expect this to happen to Christians sometimes. It's easier to believe that God has intervened in an amazing healing way when this happens, the miracle maybe points to a higher power. But as you say, to think that he would answer some prayers and not others is hard to accept.

Suffering is such a major part of this screwed up world. It's easy to forget about it when life seems to be chugging along fine. I haven't personally experienced particularly tragic circumstances lately and that makes it much easier for me to write from the hypothetical distance. When I read so many posts on this site I am reminded of what people are going through, and it makes me that bit more compassionate. I guess we can all use a reality check from time to time. There are so many hurting people out there.

Can't see that this is likely to be helpful but hope it doesn't seem too inconsiderate of your situation.

OOT
 

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Posted by ChrisT (# 62) on :
 
Thaks Uriel and OutOfTherapy, you have written with honesty and openness. I'll have to reread your posts carefully, and after that I may have something better to say.

The one thing that has struck me is that you both aren't letting go, you still believe in some good. You mention prayer and faith, despite the awful things you have been through. Maybe I'm in a similar position, I certainly see that I aam at a crossroads. Leaving my church was the first big step. I now see no positive way forward. Trust, hope and faith in times such as these become less important than survival and honesty.
 

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Posted by Rossweisse (# 2349) on :
 
Posted by ChrisT:

quote:

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Non illegitimite carborundum

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quote:

---

ChrisT wrote:
The one thing that has struck me is that you both aren't letting go, you still believe in some good. You mention prayer and faith, despite the awful things you have been through.

---

quote:

---

Jengie wrote:
O.K. The good news is God dying abandoned, helpless on a cross. Perhaps it is just my brain but I am aware of the smelly, dirty awfulness of what happened.

If here is one of God's great moments of self revelation then my brain spinning and I do not get it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Uriel:
So if you are on this thread because you are hurt by what someone has done to you, you are in good company. If the people hurting you are your church, remember that they are not living as the broken Christ who was open to the hurt and rejected. If your pain is due to natural causes, remember that God is not a magician changing the physical world to guarantee our comfort but a fellow pilgrim on the difficult road who knows those pains only too well. This understanding doesn't answer all the questions - but I have found it a step forward into a place that makes a bit more sense than the traditional Christian answers.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChrisT:
I have to agree with this - I can't see any other way it could be when I look at things clearly. A 'fellow pilgrim'. Isn't that what Jesus said - he would be with us? Not to make things easy, or even any easier, but just that he would be there. It was like that in the close relationship I had as well. She was with me, most of the time I knew she didn't understand and certainly couldn't do anything to change the situation. But she was there, and that made all the difference. I suppose when you have a fellow pilgrim who is God there are plusses. He understands, even if he won't do anything about the situation. And he won't leave of his own free will, he is bound to me.

That sounds like a daily reading of some kind, and not at all p**d off. Apologies for disrupting this thread.[/QB]

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Yes Chris. That's how I see it, too. However good or bad my life is, Jesus is there with me through thick and thin. He will never leave me nor forsake me: the friend who sticks closer than a brother etc. Perhaps I'd better not go on, don't want to make you feel unwell.

Or as Martyn Joseph puts it:

quote:

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This is an Undiscovered Love
Gives new meaning to the word
Pulls apart the preposition
Makes these efforts look absurd
It’s an Undiscovered Love
That draws me close tonight
Takes away the fear of darkness
And throws it to the light

---

quote:

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(Posted by Uriel)So if you are on this thread because you are hurt by what someone has done to you, you are in good company. If the people hurting you are your church, remember that they are not living as the broken Christ who was open to the hurt and rejected.

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quote:

---

OOTwrote:
I guess my complaint is that God seems very far from walking beside me, as a fellow pilgrim or whatever. I feel like I've asked and cried to him to be there but he is refusing.

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quote:

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Uriel wrote:
most platitudes do nothing to help

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quote:

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NickA wrote:
God hasn't just said "I forgive your sin", if so man would still be in sin. What man needs and what God has made available is power over sin, something better, a new heart and mind which we only have within us once we have received the Holy Spirit. It's a completely new Life

---

quote:

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NickA wrote:
If you have not received this you should be p**d off with the religious groups that have told you otherwise and go straight to God for what he says you need.

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quote:

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Originally posted by NickA:
Chris - you come accross as having heard and tried to believe in all the good words of God about love and forgiveness, but God hasn't just said "I forgive your sin", if so man would still be in sin. What man needs and what God has made available is power over sin, something better, a new heart and mind which we only have within us once we have received the Holy Spirit. It's a completely new Life, signified by a "new tongue" (Acts 2v4, 33, 39, 10:44-46 etc).
If you have not received this you should be p**d off with the religious groups that have told you otherwise and go straight to God for what he says you need.

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quote:

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Originally posted by nouwen:
As for me, I sit in my pew and silently think "God, I'm really pissed off with you". Strange thing is that rather than being turned away, I find myself standing at the foot of the cross and being whole-heartedly welcomed in.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by NickA:
Chris - you come accross as having heard and tried to believe in all the good words of God about love and forgiveness, but God hasn't just said "I forgive your sin", if so man would still be in sin. What man needs and what God has made available is power over sin, something better, a new heart and mind which we only have within us once we have received the Holy Spirit. It's a completely new Life, signified by a "new tongue" (Acts 2v4, 33, 39, 10:44-46 etc).
If you have not received this you should be p**d off with the religious groups that have told you otherwise and go straight to God for what he says you need.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by nouwen:
In recent weeks all I've been able to do is stand before the cross and ask "can I come before you whilst carrying such anger". If the answer is no, where on earth can I go?

However the answer has always been "yes, come and tell me about it".

If I can't scream, and shout at God as he hangs there screaming and shouting at our mutual Father than I become little less than a vagrant with out a home. Thank God that I hear Christ shouting the same, and it's in listening to this that I find myself amongst familiar company.

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Nouwen:
EXCELLENT POST!
 

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Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
kenwritez

You next-to-most-recent post.



Moo
 

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Posted by ChrisT (# 62) on :
 
So it seems that some people have been there, done that and still come through the other side OK. Maybe with scars, maybe with hangups. But they are still breathing, and still believing.

Thanks for your spot-on posts Nouwen and Kenwritez
 

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Posted by Twilight (# 2832) on :
 
Uriel quote

quote:

---

My current hypothesis is that God has established immutable scientific laws to govern the physical interactions of the universe, and that the sort of universe we live in necessarily needs such laws to permit its everyday functioning. God has therefore self-limited himself not to violate those laws on occasion for to do so would bring in a contradiction - we can't have immutable scientific laws that are also occasionally unstable. So if you pray for rain and it rains, it isn't because God heard you and caused rain to fall, it's just that you got lucky with your timing and the physical laws controlling the weather made it rain anyway.

---

Uriel has expressed almost exactly what I believe and like him, I came to this belief after praying for the healing of my child and being denied. Maybe it's because people who pray for their children do it with an intensity and unselfishness unlike any other prayers they ever ask. We know we've given those prayers all the sincerity and faith we have so we can only conclude that our loving God, who has heard our heartfelt pleas and seen our pain, simply doesn't interfere with the natural laws he has set in motion.

God gives me comfort and courage to face my problems, he gives doctors the goodness and knowledge to search for cures and I hope someday he will give my son a happier life, if not here then in "heaven." I still hope and pray for healing, and after ten years of things being really, really bad, they have gotten a lot better but are still fairly awful.

I just know that being angry at God is not really very helpful or logical. It would mean that while thousands were dying of starvation and disease, I didn't get angry or have doubts until my personal request was refused. Although I get angry over many things, I'm not angry at God. He has sustained me.

That's just my personal belief at the moment; I really think this question is a mystery we won't know the full answer to until "farther along."
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 


God Bless Phil!

That box is getting closer to coming out...
 

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Posted by The one & only Nanny Ogg (# 1176) on :
 
It's been a long time since I posted on this thread - mainly as I felt I had nothing to contribute which would not sound like a platitude or trite in any way.

After a period of arguing with God and being really p****d off with God things came to a head one night (see Moving onwards and feel free to ignore)

It would have been complacent to leave things there but although things have moved forward, I still get the "why me?" and "what have I done wrong to deserve this?" and this past week has been a real struggle mainly due to the fact that I am feeling very tired, ill and depressed.

Things have changed - I do now feel God's presence with me, but I do wish circumstances were different. I also see the power of prayer but I wish there wasn't so much to ask for prayer for (if you understand).

I am holding on to promises that people have sent me in recent weeks/months - they're what are keeping hanging on at times.

Maybe God is trying to teach me something about faith - I don't know. I just wish that there was a gentler and more loving way of doing so.
 

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Posted by alexliamw (# 2875) on :
 
I've never had the whole 'God is really annoying me at the moment' thing. Which is perhaps a blessing. I do find it somewhat hard to understand. I can't relate to people who talk about 'not liking God at the moment'.
 

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Posted by alexliamw (# 2875) on :
 
Sorry to double-post, but wanted to add: I think I just deal with things in a different way, by seeking refuge as opposed to 'arguing with God'.
 

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Posted by OutOfTherapy (# 4081) on :
 
Hi Alex

Where do you seek refuge? And do you find it? Because if you do you are doing better than me. I think part of the arguing with God thing is the expectation of a personal relationship with God and the idea that some communication is better than none - as many people have said, God can take it.

Nanny Ogg, it was your mention of this thread on your moving on one that helped me find it in the first place. Welcome back. I see what you mean about wishing there were fewer things in need of prayer. Sometimes it all seems like an impossible mountain of need, both personal and in the world in general. I either get very upset and frustrated or I just shut down the recognition of it and go and live in la la denial land. I wish I thought God cared about my disaffection and lostness. But if he did, would he not do something about it? And if anyone wants to say he came and died on a cross for my lostness we'll have to take the issue up in hell.

OOT
 

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Posted by ChrisT (# 62) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by alexliamw:
I've never had the whole 'God is really annoying me at the moment' thing. Which is perhaps a blessing. I do find it somewhat hard to understand. I can't relate to people who talk about 'not liking God at the moment'.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jengie:
My reading today was the crucifixion in Mark's gospel...... <snip> I read a commentator on Mark and he is clear that both the account in Mark is deeply ironic and that this is climax of the gospel.

O.K. The good news is God dying abandoned, helpless on a cross. Perhaps it is just my brain but I am aware of the smelly, dirty awfulness of what happened.

If here is one of God's great moments of self revelation then my brain spinning and I do not get it. Except nothing is quite where I delude myself it is.
Jengie

---

quote:

---

Either that or is it possible to see the outcome - to see the final goal, so maybe I can put this into perspective?

---

• Listening to Stevie Ray Vaughn's cover of "Voodoo Child."
• Ironing a white, long-sleeved dress shirt.
• Opening a PM from someone telling me they like my writing.
• Sitting on the back porch of a cabin in the central California mountains on a clear spring afternoon and just looking, looking, looking at the view out across the valley to the Coastal Range.
• Working on a bit of calligraphy.
• Practicing magic.
• Talking with my Sweet Potato in the kitchen as I cook.
• Reading a great post from a Shipmate whose thinking and wordsmithing abilities I respect--and always envy--you know who you are.
• Watching the first animated Charlie Brown Christmas special, identifying with Charlie so much, listening to Linus quote the Anunciation (correct term?) from the book of Luke, and listening to Vince Guraldi's incredible jazz of "Linus and Lucy."
• That invisible light bulb suddenly clicking "on" over someone's head when I'm teaching them something.

I am also galled by the realization my perceptions are not always accurate. Lots of times I've been positive such-and-such was true, when, sad to say, it was not. (Remember that cute girl when I was in junior high that I thought liked me? BZZZT! Wrong. Draw a line from this episode through the remainder of my life.)
Shit! If I can't trust my perceptions, what can I do? I don't know what else to do, divorcing God isn't something I can do in good conscience (no judgment on anyone else who does), except continue as I have, to expect more from God than I seem to see, to keep on climbing in His face and grabbing Him by the lapels and yelling, "WTF?!"

I yell because I care.

I care because I see God as the only true, reliable answer for this fallen world and her people. I care because God said, in His book and through about a billion pastors, preachers and teachers, that He really did care about us as a human race and as individuals, and because He said He is trustworthy and true and perfect.

I care because I know I am fallen from grace, returned to it only by Jesus' death and redemption of me from my own sins I cannot pay for, that given my own inclination, I'll crawl back to a comfortable death in a heartbeat.

I yell at God because I need Him and I don't understand why He does things as He does. Why this, why that? Sometimes I'm so tempted to throw up my hands and say, "I should have my head examined for believing any of this crap."

And yet...and yet...and yet I find I cannot ignore God! I see His shadow everywhere! I cannot run from Him nor wipe Him from my mind! WTF is going on?! "Hey, God! Either kiss me or kill me, but stop fucking with me!"

For now, this sums it up for me: "We see through a glass darkly."

Yeah; no shit, Sherlock.


 

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Posted by alexliamw (# 2875) on :
 
Sorry to resurrect the thread but I'd forgotten about it and wanted to respond...

quote:

---

Originally posted by OutOfTherapy:
Hi Alex

Where do you seek refuge? And do you find it?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by ChrisT:

Alex, give it time. It will happen.

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quote:

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Originally posted by kenwritez:
Alex: Welcome to the Ship, I hope you enjoy your time here and grow as a result. There are loads of excellent people onboard.

---

Actually, I've been a member for coming up to a year, as you can see from my joined date below, I just don't post very often. But thanks anyway

[fixed UBB for quotes]

[ 19. April 2003, 19:53: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]
 

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Posted by OutOfTherapy (# 4081) on :
 
Alex

Thanks for replying but I don't really think I'm getting what you mean. How do you find refuge in God? What comfort does he offer you? Do you think he's more than just a figment of your imagination - and can you prove it?

I'm just a bit fed up of waiting for God to deliver any sort of refuge... I'd love to go to some safe peaceful place with God but I feel utterly shut out. Maybe it's hard for you to understand how anyone can be pissed off with God. But read the thread in hell, 'Calling God to Hell' to get some insight into the darkness people are experiencing. *If* you can offer some genuine light I think people might appreciate it - but just a 'I'm fine' isn't very helpful.

OOT
 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by OutOfTherapy:
But read the thread in hell, 'Calling God to Hell' to get some insight into the darkness people are experiencing. *If* you can offer some genuine light I think people might appreciate it - but just a 'I'm fine' isn't very helpful.

OOT

---

Just a thought, Alex:

Definitely read the Calling God to Hell thread. But it isn't really a debating thread--it's a venting thread.

If you have insights to offer, would probably be best to offer them here, or to start a new thread.

People have tried offering insights down on the hell thread but...well, those of us who are venting usually don't find it helpful.
 

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Posted by Zeke (# 3271) on :
 
I have a friend who doesn't ever go to church, and I was trying to convince him to darken the door at least on Easter, but he said he doesn't want to go to church because he never gets anything he prays for. I didn't know what to say, and you'd think a preacher's kid would have the quick answer to that one without even thinking about it. But I know the things he wants, and they are very nice things. He wants a girlfriend. He wants his mother to have less pain from her arthritis. He wants things to be better in his country (he is Venezuelan). What could I tell him? I finally said that maybe the girlfriend he wants would be at church. I was not pleased with that answer, and neither was he. I just offered to pray for him myself, and he was touchingly grateful, believing that maybe God would listen to me more than him.

This makes me very angry with God. My son never goes to church and no longer considers himself a Christian for similar reasons. God hasn't provided for his needs, no matter how hard he works. People expect me to have answers because I am the one who is involved in a church and claims to be a Christian. I have ongoing health considerations as well, and other things I don't even want to discuss, and when I pray I feel like I am talking into a dead phone!

I'm not asking for a Ferrari and a mansion in the country with servants and a pad for my helicopter. I am not asking for trips around the world, fame, beauty. All I need is some basic stuff, for myself and for friends and family. I know you aren't supposed to think of God as some kind of vending machine, but prayers are supposed to do SOMETHING, aren't they?

Does anybody have anything helpful to say? Because I am completely out of answers.
 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
Zeke--

Nope, sorry. Nothing to offer but a hug. I'm similarly situated.

Anything that God has been purported to do over the years seems extremely erratic.
 

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Posted by shuggie (# 3141) on :
 
I've been visiting this site long enough to know the regulars don't suffer glady those who seek to offer easy answers to hard questions. What I'm about to say may seem like a trite platitude, but it's not, it comes from my own personal experience. However I'll risk being misunderstood for the possibility of helping someone.

My advice for those who feel pissed off at God:

Don't give up

Told you it would sound trite didn't I? But I'm passionate about this. You see 5 years ago I did give up. I deliberately turned my back on God and walked away. Not because I stopped believing, but because it just didn't seem to work. I felt disappointed and let down by God. I felt emotionally and spiritually worn out. It's not so much I lost my faith as it just drained away.

But as little as I felt I had, as distant as my relationship with God felt, I still had to make a conscious decision to end it.

And the thing is that now, a few years later, my life is more stable and my thoughts turn to God and faith occasionally, and I regret that decision. Because I feel like I can't go back. I feel like I crossed a line in myself somehow and it's hard to go back. Christians I talk to tend to give me the trite answers too. They don't understand why it's hard for me to go back, and I can't seem to articulate it, but you may as well ask a man with broken legs to climb Everest.

If I could go back and make a different decision, I would. Because as hard as it was not to give up then, this is harder.

So I say, be angry with God, be pissed off with him, rail at him if you have to - I'm sure you can't shock him, and he won't reject you for it - just do without completely giving up.

Your fellow Christians almost certainly won't be as accepting - they're human after all. Many won't understand. Many will be angry at you because they need you to maintain the pretence of what a 'good Christian' should be, otherwise they themselves feel threatened. Do your best to ignore them. If you're lucky, then like me you'll find out who your real friends are. There are 2 or 3 people who are left who I still talk to, who I can be completely honest with. They've seen the real me and whether or not they understand they don't judge and they listen. Those are the special relationships - hold on to those if you can.

Sorry this is starting to sound preachy. Please believe that I'm not saying this because I think it's all easy. And I'm definitely not saying it because I think I have personally got life figured out. I'm saying it because it's my experience and hopefully it may help someone.
 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
Hi Shuggie! Thanks for your post. IMHO, you did fine. When you're in pain, there's a big difference between being told "you're wrong for feeling what you do" and "don't give up".

I hope you find what you need, Shuggie.
 

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Posted by alexliamw (# 2875) on :
 
Sorry for being brief in my previous post. It was reviving an old thread and I spose I kinda doubted anyone was going to read it anyway.

I seek refuge in God because, in the middle of a world where so much can go wrong, God can be a comfort. You need someone to talk to - and prayer can be very therapeutic - God has no hidden agenda. Rather than blaming what goes wrong in our lives on God, we could just be talking to God about whats going wrong and praying for guidance. This might be easier said than done, but I've never understood the point in blaming God, when we know so little about how everything works, and I've thought that the point was to try and gain some sort of comfort. If a friendship with someone broke down, rather than getting angry with God for it breaking down, you take comfort in the fact that God will always be your friend, there for you.

I'm not saying that getting angry with God is wrong, bad or crazy, simply that I find it difficult to relate to. Sure, if things go desperately wrong, it might shake someone's faith or give them doubt, but hopefully instead of getting angry with God they could draw some comfort from the fact that he's always there to talk to.

Some people may look down on this and say "you're deluding yourself" or "if you don't have conflict with God, you can't have a real relationship with Him" but I'm sorry, its the way it is for me at the moment. And I have to say I'm fairly happy with it.
 

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Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 
I remember a few years ago I was upset about something (I don't remember what, anymore) and I wanted to just burst, and ... well, for lack of a better description, it seemed to me that Jesus just let me pummel him, the way a very small child might when crying and very upset, and it was very comforting to me -- like He was saying, "It's okay! I can take it! Let it out! Let it out at Me!"

I still feel sort of safe and secure when I remember that.

David
had forgotten about it till he re-read this thread
 

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Posted by OutOfTherapy (# 4081) on :
 
Thanks Golden Key for clarifying what I meant about giving any advice - I did wonder about mentioning the Calling God to Hell thread as I know platitudes are not well received. Part of me wanted to challenge anyone to come up with any helpful 'light', but I know that I may well be one of those who sneer at the most well-meant advice.

That said I haven't got a reason to complain at any of the recent posters here. I appreciate the honesty and concern shown in even taking time to reply.

Part of me still jumps to comfort and encourage others, wanting to say it's not too late and even if you do completely give up on God I think there would be a way back, difficult though it may well be. But as someone who has done some serious drifting lately I guess I just don't know anymore.

I echo the posters above - I haven't been asking for riches, mansions or a painfree life. When I was last talking to God about myself it was simply along basic lines of knowing him, finding some sort of peace, having some sort of relationship with him. Desperate heart-cries.

I really cannot fathom why God would not answer those sorts of prayers - the sort I thought he always wanted. I guess even puzzling over it is completely exhausting. If God is my parent then I'm waiting for Social Services to intervene. Another absent father with a busy lifestyle and too little time for his kids. I'm coming round to a resignation with it I guess, but I don't like it.

OOT
 

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Posted by ChrisT (# 62) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by OutOfTherapy:
If God is my parent then I'm waiting for Social Services to intervene. Another absent father with a busy lifestyle and too little time for his kids. I'm coming round to a resignation with it I guess, but I don't like it.

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