Thread: Purgatory: Santa Claus: Should we lie to children? Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by ThoughtCriminal (# 3030) on :
 
This Anglican vicar is in trouble for using factual science to disprove to kids the existence of Santa Claus... was it the right thing for him to do?

Is it "Christian" not only to lie to children, but to base the celebration of Jesus's Nativity around an originally Pagan, and now essentially consumerist, but by no stretch of the imagination Christian, figure? Or is the lie an acceptable, non-sinful one because it makes children happy and bolsters the innocent enjoyment of their childhood, a time of life which many adults (not myself) look back on as a time of joy they can never again in this life reach?

Does anyone think that the twisted concept of God held by many non-Christians, post-Christians and nominal Christians (anthropomorphic, male, bearded, rewarding some and punishing others, and essentially a wish-fulfilment fantasy rather than a reality) is influenced by no small degree by Santa Claus?

Or that, if children are told Santa Claus is real (and the Tooth Fairy, and the Easter Bunny...), and then find out, or are told by the same people who told them they were real, that they are not real, and the same people tell them about Jesus, that the logical conclusion for those disillusioned kids to make is that Jesus is a fairy tale just like Santa Claus?

Is telling our children about Santa a good or a bad thing? Discuss...

[ 10. March 2003, 00:33: Message edited by: Erin ]
 

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Posted by logician (# 3266) on :
 
I have only anecdotal data: Just before my wife and I were going to have children, we debated the whole S.Claus issue. As we both come from families where Santa is a very, very big deal, we didn't want to make some hollow symbolic gesture which would annoy our families and cause undue "differentness" in our children -- who were already likely to be pretty different.

In the space of two weeks, I read two people and heard two others say "I gave up believing in God about the same time I gave up believing in Santa," or "Our parents lied to us about Santa. Maybe they lied about God..."

That was convincing enough for the time, and since then I do hear the sentiment once in awhile. It is true that people saying these things are certainly trying to heap extra ridicule on the faith, and it is doubtful that they remember such things with any accuracy. Still. It gives one pause. The shrinking of the church in western society does parallel the rise of Santa, but so do many other things: telephones, book publishing, ethnic restaurants.

It should be an innocent little nothing, and we should always hesitate before making mountains out of molehills. But I think there is some less-than-innocent connection.
 

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Posted by Bonzo (# 2481) on :
 
I lied to my children about Father Christmas and about the tooth fairy and I told them that goblins live in holes in tree stumps and that the moon is made of cheese.

Fantasy is an important part of growing up (and also an important part of being grown up). Jokes and having people on, are part of an understanding of reality.

My children (11 and 13) know I'm serious about my faith, they know that it's not the same as Father Christmas. I suspect, looking back, they are glad they had parents that joined in the fun.
 

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Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
Was this Carol Service a service of Christian worship held in a church? If it was, why did the vicar feel any need to bring up the subject of Santa Claus at all? It was one of the few opportunities a lot of these kids would have had to hear about the connection between Jesus and Christmas. What was he doing wasting his time and theirs blathering on about reindeer, for Christ's sake?

I apologize for my irritation, but I was asked to sub last night for my boss at a civic Carol Service (for a medical charity) which turned out to involve 1)A reading of 'Twas the Night Before Christmas 2)A reading about the irritations of sending cards 3) An aspiring tenor singing 'Stars' from Les Miz 'because stars have to do with Christmas' 4)A reading about presents 5) A reading about how much Christmas makes us hate our families, 6) five well-known carols and 7) a blessing. Excuse me? Is this supposed to be post-modern, or was this group just to stingy to rent the Town Hall?
 

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Posted by Gracious rebel (# 3523) on :
 
The difficulty here is that even if you strongly feel yourself that it is wrong to lie to your children in this way, to tell them the truth about Santa when they are little will cause them (and their peers/ peers' parents etc) far more problems than it is worth! Its like a conspiracy - everyone participates and to not do so would seriously spoil things for others, which to me is not a very Christian attitude.

Having said that, when my own children were small, I tried not to make much of a big deal about Santa Claus, but tried more to stress the fact that it was all about Jesus birth. I felt they heard enough about Santa from friends/nursery/school etc, so it did not need to be reinforced heavily at home, although of course Santa brought them presents just like all the other kids.

Not sure that this approach worked brilliantly either though - they are now 11 and 13, well past the Santa Claus stage of course, but still far more interested in presents than in celebrating the birth of Christ. I fear I will have a fight on my hands this year if/when I try to get them to come to church on Christmas morning.
 

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Posted by Enosh (# 2779) on :
 
My wife and I decided to always tell the truth to our children (as far they were able to understand it). This means taking the time and effort to provide truthful explanations that a 4 year old can understand to questions like "why does the light come on when you press the switch?".

This then raises a dilema when it comes to Santa Clause. The initial reaction was that it's a harmless bit of fun in which everyone participates and to not join in would deprive our children of some of the 'magic' of childhood. However, we resolved to stick to our priciples and tell the truth as far as we knew it - Father Christmas was a kind man who lived a long time ago and who gave presents to children at Christmas time. Today we pretend that Father Christmas is still here and that he gives presents to people so that they can celebrate (the baby) Jesus being born.

To our surprise (though I guess it shouldn't have come as a surprise) the children were able to easily accept this fact, but we were still able to join in the fun of talking about Father Christmas as though he were real. The children had been included in the conspiracy!
 

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Posted by Second Mouse (# 2793) on :
 
I agree largely with what Enosh has just said.

I was led to believe that Father Christmas was real, as a kid, and looking back, it was a special part of Christmas, and I can't see that it has done my faith in God, or my trust in my parents any harm. But, all the same, it just makes me feel far too uncomfortable to make my children believe that this is true, when it isn't. I just can't do it.

Relating to what the vicar actually told the kids, when I was fairly young, it did occur to me that Santa wouldn't be able to deliver all those presents in so short a time, and that did worry me a bit.

However it then occurred to me that obviously it was night time in different parts of the world at different times, so, for example, he could be delivering presents in Australia, while it was still daytime in the Uk. Working out that Santa had 24 hours rather than 12 available to do all that work made it all seem believable again.

SM
 

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Posted by Lurker (# 1384) on :
 
I too would distinguish between lies and fantasy. Kids don't stop believing in God because they think "My parents lied about Santa, perhaps they lied about Jesus", they stop because their parents are not living the faith they profess. If you live as if God was unreal, like Santa, that's what your children will believe, regardless of what you actually believe.
 

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Posted by silverfran (# 3549) on :
 
I remember my primary school teacher telling me that of course Santa was real, when I was trying to convince my friend that he wasn;t. I pointed out taht I was so excited that I couldn't sleep, so I was wide awake when my mother came into my room and put the pillow case with my presents in at theh bottom of my bed.

She couldn't say a lot to that.

Its true that the way we celebrate Christmas is a lot to do with inherited traditions from pagan times but as has already been pointed out Santa is really a St. and I do believe that it is the intention behind the action that creates its meaning-e.g just because Christmas falls close to Yule doesn't mean its a pagan festival redressed.

Bearing that in mind the news last night reported that Britain is in a record amount of consumer debt this Christmas, as most people are putting their presents on plastic. Some ahve even re-mortgaged their homes-but this is due to property value going up and the timing happens to be convenient.

I am also sure far more children associate Christmas with Santa than Christ

If the Christmas message is truly lost in the spiral of consumerism maybe we need to shift the emphasis from contemporary pagan icons to God???
Maybe we shouldn;t be talking about Santa at all?
 

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Posted by Robert Jesse Telford (# 3256) on :
 
I don't actually remember whether I thought he was real or not!

All I know is, one Christmas (my sister was probably in her teens by then) all three of us kids got a keyboard from "Santa" (yes, that's right, inverted commas).

This is how I intend to do it with my kids - shock tactics if they haven't been clever enough to figure it out, but obviously they will have done because they'll be MY kids! hehe

P.S. There's nothing we can do about Santa except make sure nativity plays counter him. Secular culture needs a figure too (not that they should be allowed one, but it's too late now...)
 

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Posted by day_thomas (# 3630) on :
 
I think that santa is fine, it is a bit of magic in a season that is about amazing, and different things happening.
From a personal point of view, long after i knew Santa wasnt real, i still didnt look when my parents came in with my stocking, just in case!

It adds a bit of mystery to children who might not be able to understand the whole meaning of christmas until they are 5-6 ish. And like Lurker said, your kids should be able to tell if God is real by what you do every day, not just at christmas.
 

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Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
Thank you, Amos - and I could not agree more!

Incidentally, aren't parents getting a bit too earnest (to say the least!) today? Perhaps, not being a parent (but having had a share of exposure to children), I can be more objective. I personally think that children are far more intelligent, and bigger realists, than we know. Except for the very little ones, I think kids are often (knowingly) just having some fun pretending with Santa - if anything, some equally pretend to believe well after they actually do in order not to disappoint parents.

Equally, I think imagination is quite a good trait to cultivate. (I myself, to this day, take joy in folk tales, mythology and the like.) In all honesty, did anyone feel crushed that "my parents lied to me" when myth was seen for what it was?

However, here is a tactic not to try - and this really happened. My cousin's son, Mark, was about 3 when this dialogue with me took place:

Mark: Does everybody have to die? (This very matter of fact.)
Me: Yes.
Mark: But God never dies, does he?
Me: No, God never dies.
Mark: But what about Santa Claus?
Me: Well, Mark, Santa Claus is Saint Nicholas - he's in heaven.
Mark (who had no use for that): Not that Santa Claus - the one with the gifts.
Me (getting dumber each moment): Mark, Santa Claus, in that sense, is a personification of a spirit of giving... (etc.)
Mark: Is Santa Claus God's brother?

My sister, very knowledgeable in the ways of children, fortunately cut off my lecture. "Mark, when this Santa Claus dies, somebody else becomes Santa Claus."
 

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Posted by Garden Hermit (# 109) on :
 
Christmas just wouldn't be Christmas without some Vicar deciding to upset a school by telling the assembly that Santa doesn't exist.

Christmas just wouldn't be Christmas without some 'shocked' parent phoning up the National Press with the story.

And Christmas just wouldn't be Christmas without the National Press publishing the story to show how out of touch Vicars are.

What about the nativity story anyway?

Wisemen attending the 'baby' when most scholars put Jesus at 2-3 years old.

Three wisemen when the Bible doesn't give a figure, - there could have been 100.

And all the wisemen with made up names.

Its not lying anyway, - its being economical with the truth which is subtley different.

Pax et Bonum
 

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Posted by Smudgie (# 2716) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Bonzo:

Fantasy is an important part of growing up (and also an important part of being grown up). Jokes and having people on, are part of an understanding of reality.
[QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lurker:
[QB]I too would distinguish between lies and fantasy. Kids don't stop believing in God because they think "My parents lied about Santa, perhaps they lied about Jesus", they stop because their parents are not living the faith they profess. If you live as if God was unreal, like Santa, that's what your children will believe, regardless of what you actually believe.

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I agree with these statements and much of what many other people have written on this thread. I speak as someone who has been reprimanded by a close friend for "lying" to her children by playing a verbal "let's pretend" game with them, something I do with mine all the time. She believes in never saying anything to children that isn't true. The difference between her children (whom I adore) and mine is that hers are incredibly gullible, whereas mine - even the five year old - test out things that they are told against their own knowledge and experience.

To be honest, I don't want my children to believe in God just because I tell them it's true. God has no grandchildren, and if it is my word that they are taking for it, then I would rather tell them nothing. I want them to grow into a relationship with Him by balancing what I tell them against their own knowledge and experience, and into that comes my own witness to them through the way I behave. When I lose my temper unreasonably with them; when I teach that God is love and yet say something unkind about someone or deliberately say or do something hurtful; when I say that God is forgiving, and yet am unwilling to forgive their wrongs or the wrongs of others, or to apologise when I know I am in the wrong - these are putting their faith in God more at risk than playing the "Father Christmas" game.

Indeed.. my twinge of guilt came when I ate the cake they'd put out on a tray for him... just in case he did actually come and found I'd beaten him to it!
 

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Posted by Mousethief (# 953) on :
 
My first wife and I did the "we refuse to lie about Santa" thing with our daughter and it paid off handsomely (in her trust in our truthfulness).

I object to saying that kids fall away from the faith because their parents don't live it. Any church has any number of families which disprove such a thesis. It's just more Freudian blame-the-parents-ism which refuses to acknowledge that kids make choices and aren't merely passive victims of everything that happens around them.

Reader Alexis
 

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Posted by day_thomas (# 3630) on :
 

quote:

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I object to saying that kids fall away from the faith because their parents don't live it. Any church has any number of families which disprove such a thesis

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quote:

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The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians, who acknowledge Jesus with their lips, then walk out the door, and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable

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Originally posted by nicolemrw:
ok, why did that not make a link straight to the article? i don't know. but just use "santa claus coke" as search terms and you will find it.

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From the Coca Cola Company™ Website:

"In fact, the modern image of Santa Claus was created 71 years ago when Haddon Sundblom created him for The Coca-Cola Company's advertising campaign "

Coca Cola™

Of course he started as ST. Nick...and Finland and other countries all claim him as theirs here another country's exampleTurkish Santa.

Who made him "catch on" in America? I would have to say the Coca Cola Company.
 

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Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :
 
I got into trouble with my partner for not telling the children that Santa Claus was real and alive now.

I told them that it was a game children and parents played - we had the secret stocking presents (lots of little things, and always an orange and a gold coin) and the fun of hanging them up and exploring them in the morning - and now they are grown-ups they feel quite as happy about it as they did when they were little.

I couldn't lie to them; I had a horrible shock when my mother told me Santa wasn't real. I was sitting on the floor looking at a picture of a doll that I was going to ask him for and she snapped at me that she and my father were "Santa Claus" and I shouldn't be asking for something expensive.

However, my partner, I think, needed to be able to have his own fantasies about Father Christmas - it wasn't about the children having a good time, but about him having a good time and he whinged about my telling them the truth for years.
 

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Posted by nicolemrw (# 28) on :
 
i don't give a flying hoot what coke claims, they're lying. since you obviously didn't bother to do the search, and since i still can't make a link to the direct article, allow me to quote:

quote:

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This legend is not true. Although some versions of the Santa Claus figure still had him attired in various colors of outfits past the beginning of the 20th century, the jolly, ruddy, sack-carrying Santa with a red suit and flowing white whiskers had become the standard image of Santa Claus by the 1920s, several years before Sundlom drew his first Santa illustration for Coca-Cola. As The New York Times reported on 27 November 1927:
A standardized Santa Claus appears to New York children. Height, weight, stature are almost exactly standardized, as are the red garments, the hood and the white whiskers. The pack full of toys, ruddy cheeks and nose, bushy eyebrows and a jolly, paunchy effect are also inevitable parts of the requisite make-up.

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Posted by duchess [green] (# 2764) on :
 
Nicole, I did read the snopes article. I also was having fun with you...

Who made him "catch on" in America is what I said, not "who first conjured him up?"

The Coca Cola Company™ most carefully say they "created his MODERN IMAGE", which is a pretty broad expression. I mean, what exactly do they mean by that? I take it as the red dressed rosy checked version, an obviously tweaked image of the previous versoin.

I was yanking your chain, girly.

 

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Posted by duchess [green] (# 2764) on :
 
"conjured up by the Coca Cola Company#&153" in my first post in this thread should have been
"the modern image that the Coca Cola Company#&153 brought forth"

There now are you happy?
 

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Posted by nicolemrw (# 28) on :
 
then i hope you are going to straighten the record with your nephews and nieces, duchess, cause if you think its wrong to lie about the existance of santa claus, then it should be just as wrong to give them wrong info about where santa did come from.
 

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Posted by duchess [green] (# 2764) on :
 
Nicole, I don't bring up the subject Santa Claus to my nephews and nice since I have my own inward battle about that and thankfully they never ask.

What I have been asked about though:
1) "What does rated X mean?"
2) "What does XXX mean?"
3) "Why aren't you married?"
4) "Who made God?"
5) "Where is heaven?"
6) "What did you GET ME?"
7) "Do you have a boy friend?"
8) "Why do you keep telling us bible stories? I want another story!"
9) "Am I going to die?"
10) "Do people go to Santa Claus when they die?"

Last question shows you why I hate the issue of Santa Claus.
 

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Posted by nicolemrw (# 28) on :
 

quote:

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In front of all my nephews and niece, I talked to their mom about where Santa Claus came from...conjured up by the Coca Cola Company™ ...

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quote:

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10) "Do people go to Santa Claus when they die?"

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quote:

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Originally posted by ThoughtCriminal:
This Anglican vicar is in trouble for using factual science to disprove to kids the existence of Santa Claus... was it the right thing for him to do?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bonzo:
I lied to my children about Father Christmas and about the tooth fairy and I told them that goblins live in holes in tree stumps and that the moon is made of cheese.
... I suspect, looking back, they are glad they had parents that joined in the fun.

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And I suspect the goblins are too.

quote:

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Originally posted by Enosh:
However, we resolved to stick to our priciples and tell the truth as far as we knew it - Father Christmas was a kind man who lived a long time ago and who gave presents to children at Christmas time. Today we pretend that Father Christmas is still here and that he gives presents to people so that they can celebrate (the baby) Jesus being born.

To our surprise (though I guess it shouldn't have come as a surprise) the children were able to easily accept this fact, but we were still able to join in the fun of talking about Father Christmas as though he were real. The children had been included in the conspiracy!

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Well done!!

quote:

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Originally posted by Lurker:
I too would distinguish between lies and fantasy. Kids don't stop believing in God because they think "My parents lied about Santa, perhaps they lied about Jesus", they stop because their parents are not living the faith they profess. If you live as if God was unreal, like Santa, that's what your children will believe, regardless of what you actually believe.

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quote:

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Originally posted by silverfran:
I do believe that it is the intention behind the action that creates its meaning-e.g just because Christmas falls close to Yule doesn't mean its a pagan festival redressed.
...
If the Christmas message is truly lost in the spiral of consumerism maybe we need to shift the emphasis from contemporary pagan icons to God???
Maybe we shouldn;t be talking about Santa at all?

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I'd say more a pagan festival baptised.

I also don't think the notion of Santa (hmmm, benevolent powerful being who sees into people's hearts and bestows blessings upon them, continuously laughing with joy, seen by some as rewarding goodness and punishing badness, far away yet very near...) is what's emphasising consumerism any more than our belief in God is. One could take the other tack and say that if people believed in Santa for real then they would frankly be less consumerist.

Perhaps we're lucky -- poor Santa, the shops and businesses and advertisers have misused his image -- but wouldn't it be far worse if they did that to Jesus! (Yes, it could be argued that in some times and places, including now, some have done and do that (selling indulgences centuries ago, TV evangelists now, etc.), but it's not quite so mainstream today as, say, Coca-Cola or the malls.)

quote:

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Originally posted by Garden Hermit:
Christmas just wouldn't be Christmas without ...

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'Tis the season! Slow news day, too, perhaps...

Maybe there's just one vicar who does this every year, sort of a Christmas tradition. Other people take up caroling. It's just his way...

quote:

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Originally posted by Mousethief:
I object to saying that kids fall away from the faith because their parents don't live it. Any church has any number of families which disprove such a thesis. It's just more Freudian blame-the-parents-ism which refuses to acknowledge that kids make choices and aren't merely passive victims of everything that happens around them.

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quote:

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Originally posted by J. J. Ramsey:
He just probably thought his audience was older.

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Aha, so he just needs new glasses.

Hmmm, perhaps a certain someone might put some into his Christmas stocking...

... if there's room for them with all the coal!!

quote:

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Originally posted by duchess [green]:
I know I hate Santa Claus in theology (rather children look to Jesus on Christmas) but I love seeing their faces light up...I keep reading these fantasy stories since they never tire of them and love them. As their aunt ...

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Then, my dear lady, you are Auntie Claus, or their very own Auntie Claus, and that perhaps matters more in the long run.

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Originally posted by aig:
in our house - Father Christmas - my father was very, very high church

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Does that mean you would address him as "Your Grace"? Just curious...

quote:

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Originally posted by daisymay:
I had a horrible shock when my mother told me Santa wasn't real.

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quote:

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Originally posted by logician:
In the space of two weeks, I read two people and heard two others say "I gave up believing in God about the same time I gave up believing in Santa," or "Our parents lied to us about Santa. Maybe they lied about God..."

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Well, I don't know - after hearing things such as "I stopped being Christian because everyone I knew was such a hypocrite," I suppose this approach can be praised in that it is, at least, different... Probably less true than the Santa legend, and the latter has more charm, but at least different..
 

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Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Newman's Own:
And we went back to the Italian customs, eliminating Santa altogether, when the youngest was five!

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Did anyone ask "Is Befana Santa's wife?"

(I've pondered the idea of some kind of Christmas story in which Father Christmas and La Befana and perhaps others meet, but have no idea what should happen next...)
 

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Posted by welsh dragon (# 3249) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by J. J. Ramsey:
This is sort of off-topic, but . . .

My guess is that when the vicar was telling children that Santa Claus was scientifically impossible, he was trying to be funny and it backfired. There was a tongue-in-cheek article a while back called The Physics of Santa Claus.
...
the vicar ...probably thought his audience was older.

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quote:

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The Physics of Santa Claus
The lead pair of reindeer will absorb 14.3 QUINTILLION joules of energy. Per second. Each. In short, they will burst into flame ...will be vaporized within 4.26 thousandths of a second. ...In conclusion - If Santa ever DID deliver presents on Christmas Eve, he's dead now..

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quote:

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Originally posted by day_thomas:
But surely it helps if the main christian influences on your life act like christians.

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There are always going to be exceptions, but if your main christian influences act as though God isnt true, than you will start to believe that.

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(or as known in our house - Father Christmas - my father was very, very high church)

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Don't know it's anything to do with churchmanship. He is Father Christmas; "Santa Claus" is an import from continental Europe via the US.

There are some subtle differences, though. Santa seems to wear a short tunic. Father Christmas' cloak is longer. Santa wears a hat; Father Christmas has a hood on his cloak.

At least, that's the image I grew up with. Oh, and Santa's fatter.

Finally, Santa Claus is an obscure saint raised to a sort of folklore demi-god status. Father Christmas is an anthropromorphic representation of Yuletide festivity, subsuming Christmas into itself.


 

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Posted by Inanna (# 538) on :
 
My parents had to disillusion me about Santa from the very beginning.

I must have been either 3 or 4, when my mother told me to hang my stocking up on the end of my bed, and Father Christmas would come down the chimney in the night and fill it.

I completely freaked out, and started crying inconsolably, that I didn't want some strange man coming into my bedroom when I was asleep.

So my mother had to tell me very nicely that it would really be daddy, and people just pretended it was Father Christmas. But not to tell my sister who was two years younger....

I actually think the American "Santa" concept, where the stockings are by the chimney in the living room, is perhaps slightly less traumatizing for any other kids who are as sensitive as I obviously was....
 

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Posted by hatless (# 3365) on :
 
I once heard an anthropologist explain the origins of Father Christmas like this.

In north European shamanism, the shaman will often use fly agaric mushrooms as a hallucinogenic drug. In a time of crisis, the shaman eats some mushroom (a sub-lethal dose, he hopes) then climbs up a birch tree (fly agaric grows in symbiosis with birch) and has his visions. After a day or two he returns to the community and tells them about the places he's been. In his trance he flies through the air, and secretly visits members of the tribe by coming down the smoke holes of their houses. He has seen all sorts of wonderful things which the people don't really understand, and believes that he has somehow sorted things out with the spirit world or whatever. Everyone feels better.

This has it all. Flying through the sky (pulled presumably by the only beast of burden in the far north, caribou or reindeer), trees, coming down smoke holes, or chimneys, lapland links and a mysterious old man. And fly agaric is a bright red mushroom with white trim - well, white bits stuck on it.

What a great story! (The anthropologist was talking to a theological conference and suggesting that theology and ministry was, like the shaman's work, something that normal people wouldn't expect to understand, but would accept was important and would feel better as a result of.)
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
My daughter (now 13...) confided in me when she was 3 or 4 that she just pretended to believe in Father Christmas because her Mum seemed to want her to.

But by the time she was 6 or 7 it was "when I was little I used to believe in Father Christmas".

Just for myself, I can't imagine circumstances under which I would lie or pretend to a child, or anyone else, about Father Christmas. I have no memory whatsoever of ever thinking that such stories were true when I was a kid, and I don't find the idea of children believing untruths to be cute.
 

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Posted by Sean D (# 2271) on :
 
Phew!

The Daily Mail published a scientific refutation this morning of Rev Rayfield's position, explaining precisely how it is entirely plausible that Santa could do what he's meant to. It was a great relief. (Sadly the Mail does not put its articles online, so no link.)

I was reading the original article with a friend who's not a Christian, who made the observation that Christianity depends not on fantasy but on the ability to believe exciting and mysterious things outside your own experience. So, Santa seems like pretty good training to me.
 

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Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by hatless:
I once heard an anthropologist explain the origins of Father Christmas like this.

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Wonder what a real shaman would make of that...
 

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Posted by Miffy (# 1438) on :
 
Have a look at God in the Life of Father Christmas
 

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Posted by Mr Pete (# 3606) on :
 
We (me an my sister) always put our stockings up in our living room....

Nad what do you mean ther's no santa/father c.????
 

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Posted by Enosh (# 2779) on :
 
Thanks, Miffy. A very inspiring story.
 

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Posted by Mrs Redboots (# 3734) on :
 
We told our daughter that Father Christmas was just a pretend. She entered whole-heartedly into the fantasy while knowing it was just a fantasy, and I don't think she was any the poorer for that. When she started losing teeth, we said that we could either buy the teeth off her as a straight commercial transaction, or pretend that the tooth fairy came - she opted for the latter!

In re the American "Santa Claus" vs the British "Father Christmas", there was never, I think, any suggestion that Father Christmas' gifts relied on a child's behaviour.
 

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Posted by nicolemrw (# 28) on :
 
i remember quite clearly the moment i realized for myself that santa was only a story. what a rush! couldn't wait to tell the world. as i recall my mother was quite congratulatory that i'd worked it out myself. it never occured to me to think that my parents had "lied" to me, or that i should discount everything or anything else they'd said on account of it.
 

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Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mrs Redboots:

In re the American "Santa Claus" vs the British "Father Christmas", there was never, I think, any suggestion that Father Christmas' gifts relied on a child's behaviour.

---

In Scotland, which of course has continental connections with tradition rather then English or American, children were told that they would only get presents from Santa Claus if they were good. They got ashes or cinders in their stockings if they were bad.

I actually got a bag of cinders in my stocking when I was about seven. That was horrible.


Our family in Holland celebrate St. Nicholas' Day (a few days ago) and St Nicholas, dressed as a bishop, appears in the streets accompanied with Black Peter, who has a whip. Naughty children are punished and good ones rewarded.

These customs seem quite alike.
 

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Posted by Brigham (# 3764) on :
 
There exists, I believe, a 'once and for all' solution to the annual 'Jesus-versus-Klaus' debate, at least as far as my native England is concerned, and possibly for the whole of Christendom.
This simple but elegant answer lies in the consideration of the following facts:

1) There is no Biblical evidence that Jesus was born in December. There is, however, evidence that He was not.

2) There is overwhelming historical evidence that December 25th. was widely celebrated before the coming of Christianity, and that various Popes of Rome, unable to suppress it, decided to declare it 'Christmas Day' instead.

3) There is no point in Scripture where Jesus teaches His followers to mark the day of His worldly birth.

The obvious conclusion from these simple facts is thus; Leave December 25th to the Pagans, New-Agers, Consumerists et al., and let Christians concentrate on more important matters, such as celebrating the life of Christ, and following His teachings.
Steps are already being taken in this direction by the 'Politically Correct'. Here in England, a leading northern supermarket chain (based in West Yorkshire,an area of significant Muslim population), has for some years now avoided use of the 'C-word' altogether, urging its customers to celebrate 'The Festive Season' instead. So be it. The secular world has its secular blow-out, the Christian world is rid of a hang-over from pagan times, the 'unacceptable face of Christmas' returns to its rightful bearded place as a consumer icon, and no Muslims are offended by the reference to Christ!
Now, who will hang the bell round the cat's neck?
 

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Posted by Karl - Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
But I for one would not forego the celebration of the Incarnation. There's more to it than just a leader's birthday.

It is, for example, my belief that the Atonement is achieved as much by the union of God and Man in Our Lord as it is by His Passion. Christmas is therefore of equal importance with Good Friday.

Both are, of course, left unfinished without Easter and the Ascension.
 

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Posted by Brigham (# 3764) on :
 
Karl has a good point here. The problem is, the day on which the Saviour was born is not known. Many, if not most Christians desire to celebrate this event, however we must decide, either singly, or as a group, on what day to hold such celebration. Any date in the calendar would be valid in scriptural terms, and so we must make our choice. My point is; December 25th is about the most unsuitable day there is! It clashes with the Roman new year, with the pagan winter solstice, and latterly with the biggest orgy of greed and drunkenness in the history of man!
My personal day to mark this event is in April, as the appearence of little lambs in the fields draws my attention to those wonderous events of so long ago. Does anyone feel like opening a new topic on when best to celebrate Christmas?
 

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Posted by Lanie (# 3768) on :
 
Umm... okay... here's my twopennyworth on the Should we tell kids about Santa thing.

Didn't God say that... "Thou shalt not lie?"

If we are to be any sort of example, Christian or otherwise, then why even think about lying to our children? Lying about Santa may or may not confuse our children that "Mum and Dad lied about Santa so maybe they lied about Jesus too" but surely if Mum and Dad lie to their children the children will then think it's okay to lie to Mum and Dad too?

If it's okay to lie to our kids, maybe God should have added "Thou shalt not lie (except little white ones that don't really hurt anyone and aren't really sinful because it gives children a little magic at Christmas)". However, he said not to lie.

Bit of a bummer that - but y'know... if you start off thinking "One little lie isn't going to hurt anyone" then do you think that the next time too? Or do you decide to only lie about Santa?

I think whoever said about telling your children that Santa isn't real but that we pretend he is because we celebrate Jesus birthday by pretending he gives gifts to everyone, pretty much had it right. Children learn by playing pretending games, and to include them in the pretense of Santa might benefit them even more than having their "magical lie" continued.

Just a thought.
 

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Posted by nicolemrw (# 28) on :
 

quote:

---

? Lying about Santa may or may not confuse our children that "Mum and Dad lied about Santa so maybe they lied about Jesus too" but surely if Mum and Dad lie to their children the children will then think it's okay to lie to Mum and Dad too?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Brigham:
My point is; December 25th is about the most unsuitable day there is! It clashes with the Roman new year, with the pagan winter solstice, and latterly with the biggest orgy of greed and drunkenness in the history of man!
My personal day to mark this event is in April, as the appearence of little lambs in the fields draws my attention to those wonderous events of so long ago.

---

I agree, Brigham. Especially as December 24th is my birthday. Can't have a party: everyone's too busy. Don't get presents: everyone's too broke. Can't go out for a meal: restaurants are full and overpriced at that time of year. Can't go and see a show in London: no trains after 10pm. So yes, let's change Christmas to 25th April.
 

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Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aardvark:
So yes, let's change Christmas to 25th April.

---

And some years we can combine the Christmas and Easter celebrations.



Moo
 

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Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by nicolemrw:
[QUOTE]

come on guys. when you tell your kids a bedtime story, do you start it:

"once upon a time, a long time ago, there was a girl named cinderella, but she never really existed and this is just a story...."?

---

Yep, I used to do just that, but not at the beginning of the story, before that. I always let them know when things were made up.
 

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Posted by nicolemrw (# 28) on :
 
good grief
 

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Posted by Poet_of_Gold (# 2071) on :
 
When a very bright little girl asked me about Santa Claus, I got out the encyclopedia and read her an article on St. Nicholas. It told about his life, his legend, when he was born, and when he died. She persisted in asking if he were alive, and I explained truthfully that I believe he is alive in Heaven.

For this innocent and truthful act, I was accused of having ruined Christmas for her whole family.

(shrugs)
 

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Posted by duchess [green] (# 2764) on :
 
Poet, you are my hero.

(Well, until this mood swings melts away)...
 

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Posted by Newman's Own (# 420) on :
 
Poet, I'm sure, did not at all ruin it for the child - though he may have ruined it for her parents, who probably are spinning fantasies of their own. I'm nearing the half century mark, and I have noticed, especially with some people I've known who got a late start in having children, that they have two rather fantastic "delusions" (in quotation marks lest anyone think I am referring to clinical disorders!) about their kids. First, they want to keep the kids "little" at all costs - I was astonished when someone I knew told her daughter (aged 12!) that she'd receive no presents if she denied the existence of Santa. Secondly, they want to be not only the centre but the entirety of their kids' lives - and just cannot stop preaching! (I suppose they are so afraid kids will fall into drugs or sex - which many of the parents most certainly did - that the illusions of adolescent infants is reassuring.)

As I mentioned, I (a hopeless literary type) very much enjoy folk and fairy tales, and believe that there is a good deal of truth presented in many of them. Well, about two years ago, looking for some relaxation, I did an Internet search on that subject... which led me to a site which made me very glad that I was a child when I was, rather than now. The site was aimed, apparently, at parents who perpetually preach - every fairy tale was searched for elements that could inspire "a talk." The approach would not only defeat the worth of the often fine stories, but would give parents another opportunity to talk about themselves!

Imagination is a wonderful gift - where would the arts be without it? Yet there seems to be an excessive fear today that use of imagination is some sort of delusion. My own guess, regarding Santa, is that, for the tiny children who may genuinely believe, it is just a way to express some sense of delight - and, for all but the tiniest, it is a game - more to humour parents who'd otherwise be disappointed!

Poll of other working class kids: did you ever ask "Santa" for an outrageously expensive gift, then feel he'd abandoned you when it did not appear? I did not think so...
 

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Posted by logician (# 3266) on :
 
Elizabeth, my wife and I are your age, and her mother still doesn't like to hear her say she doesn't believe in Santa.

Perhaps connected to this, her 45 year old son keeps moving back home...
 

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Posted by Monsieur Magique (# 3778) on :
 
My wife and I have always resolved not to tell fairy stories to children when we are teaching them, as later on they will remember and this reduces your credibility.
On the Santa Claus issue, we got our class to focus on the positive side of the St Nicholas story - a good man helping to prevent children being sold into servitude by the giving of gifts and asking whether that wasn't a positive example of Christian giving ?
This also stops you getting into hassles like "Why can't Santa take food to starving children ?" which will really get you into hot water if you're telling a load of fairy tales.
Kids are sophisticated and they quickly know that Santa Claus is a dude in a costume, but they'll play along if they get a present at the end. Consider that THEY may be humouring YOU rather than vice versa !
Pax vobiscum
 

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Posted by Alcuin (# 2089) on :
 
Why shouldn't we lie to our children about Santa Claus? We lie to them about Jesus Christ.

Alcuin
 

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Posted by mimsey (# 3757) on :
 
Two points:

We tell plenty of lies to children, and some of them are subtler and much more worrying than Santa. How many times, for example, have you heard an adult tell a child that "Uncle Ned is in heaven now" regardless of whether Uncle Ned even believed that there was such a place? But then again, I don't suppose that even the strictest Christian would happily tell the child that Uncle Ned was in hell, no matter what they believed!

As a child I never had a problem with Santa, as I was brought up in a tradition full of representative actions and symbols. At church I was very used to being told "we do this to remember such and such an event" and so why not "we tell children this to remember the generosity of St. Nicholas who gave money secretly to three girls"? That didn't present a problem to my six-year-old mind when I'd worked out who really left the presents (and I didn't have a problem with keeping the secret from my little sister for a bit longer, either.) It certainly never jeopardised my faith or suggested to me that my parents also lied about God-and anyway, that idea is completely illogical in that adults don't get stockings-because we wouldn't go to church once a week for the sake of the children! It must be fairly easy even for a child to tell the difference.

This is turning into three points (or more-my points tend to get fuzzy) and there's loads to say but just one last thing. Speaking as someone whose childhood was largely founded on my own imagination, I really believe that fantasy and the entering into other worlds in the mind is an essential part, both of childhood, and of life. I believed in Narnia for ages, even when I'd worked it out for myself at the age of seven and announced to my astonished mother that Aslan represented Jesus! And when my little sister was the right age, I invented a whole world just for her, populated by characters that only I could see and hear-I would have to "translate" for her. She really, truly believed it for ages, and I'm not ashamed of that, nor do I see it as having "lied" to her. Aged about ten, I could give her what I'd always wanted for myself-a real live Narnia.

In this day and age, people want to have solid things to believe in; they want to be able to touch and hold, to chink the coins in their pockets. The belief that a child has in the possibility that something outside this world, something supernatural and strange and wonderful, might exist, wouldn't be bad news for some sceptical adults in the exploration of God; and therefore, I don't think the instinct for it should be crushed in our children.
 

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Posted by logician (# 3266) on :
 
Welcome MonMag and Mim
 

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Posted by mimsey (# 3757) on :
 
Just one more thing-I've just realised how appropriate my signature is to this discussion! It's one of my favourite verses, and it's the reason for fantasy and the longing for other worlds-and it's Biblical! Hebrews...
 

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Posted by daisymay (# 1480) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alcuin:
Why shouldn't we lie to our children about Santa Claus? We lie to them about Jesus Christ.

Alcuin

---

When? Who's "we"?
 

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Posted by Bonzo (# 2481) on :
 
I can remember when I found out that Father Christmas wasn't real. I certainly didn't think my parents had lied to me, in fact, for me, it confirmed their unconditional love for me, which gave me gifts without wanting my gratitude.

A better picture of God would be hard to find.
 

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Posted by Tortuf (# 3784) on :
 
Here in the States we have several denominations that will not celebrate Christmas as a christian holiday. According to their beliefs, Christmas cannot have happened in mid winter, neither should it be celebrated because it started as a pagan festival. They still have christmas trees and parties and talk about Santa.
When my parents talked about Santa I knew it was a story. That knowledge never took away from my enjoyment of Christmas.
I believe that God accepts belief and worship, even if it is directed to him in some other name. I therefore have no problem with a holiday that latches onto an old pagan festival. Nor do I feel compelled to see if I can ruin someone else's joy because that joy might be based upon something I believe to be wrong. Until I am perfect I will forego forcing my truth on others.
 

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Posted by duchess [green] (# 2764) on :
 
I told my niece and nephews a little bit about St. Nicholas yesterday. Then I asked my 5 year old nephew "Do you believe in Santa Claus?" His mom and I held our breath...he looked at me like I was an idiot for even asking...

"YES."

Hehe.
 

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Posted by A. Theist (# 3797) on :
 
I had a similar dilemma to you lot.

As an Atheist and a scientist, clearly I don't believe in God. I also doubt very much whether there even was a Jesus (is there any evidence other than the Bible?) If there was one, perhaps he was a freedom fighter/revolutionary.

As a Marxist, I believe that religion and superstition, especially organised religion and superstition, have been tools to prevent ordinary people achieving their true worth. Tools used by the bosses/landowners/aristocracy to keep the ordinary people "in their place".

However, as a believer in Comprehensive education, I could never send my children to other than the nearest state school. Of course, state schools (in the UK) have a duty to promote Christianity/Anglicanism.

So, my dilemma was: When do I tell my kids that Christianity is a load of old codswallop?

You see, if I did it whilst they were young, then I am brainwashing them, just as effectively as you lot have been brainwashed by the God Squad. And Confucius, I think it was, said something along the lines of "Give me the child until he is seven; and I will give you the man".

So, I decided that I would NEVER express my Atheist views, nor even any agnostic views, to my children until they were at least seven.

Why was I perpared to do this? Because, I decided that if I was going to let them, indeed encourage them, to believe in Father Christmas until they were 11 or 12 (a harmless; although materialistic fantasy), and only then tell them that it was rhubarb; the least I could do was let them form their own opinion about God/Jesus (given that they were only hearing anything substantial about Christianity, a little about other monotheistic religions, and nowt about pantheistic religions/paganism/Roman/Greek Gods etc.)

I have kept this promise; and now my children know that there is no Father Christmas. I have not, as yet, told both of them my opinion about religion; although, when my oldest pointed out that she was an atheist, I did concur. I have not as yet told my younger daughter my opinions.

By the way, the background to this is that Mum is a Christian; and all grandparents are.
 

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Posted by Tiffer (# 3073) on :
 
You're cute!
 

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Posted by A. Theist (# 3797) on :
 
Thank you
 

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Posted by Tiffer (# 3073) on :
 
Sorry, couldn't resist.

Your poor wife! Go on, become a Christian! It's a whole load of fun, and you get to do all sorts of things you could never do otherwise.

A word of warning - my parents let me grow up without pressing their views on me, I suppose because they thought that some belief in God would make me behave better. A few years later and I am an arrogant bible-bashing Christian, that really backfired! And boy do I know what they believe now. So if that is your approach now then be prepared to continue it when they are worried for your eternal soul and off to prayer meetings every day!

quote:

---

As a Marxist, I believe that religion and superstition, especially organised religion and superstition, have been tools to prevent ordinary people achieving their true worth.

---

quote:

---

Of course, state schools (in the UK) have a duty to promote Christianity/Anglicanism.

---

Is this true? I thought that it was considered racism nowadays to promote anything other than minority religions. I do remember singing some sunday school songs however.

Did you know that if you polish pewter enough it looks like silver?
 

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Posted by A. Theist (# 3797) on :
 
------------Did you meet me before I became a Christian! Do you have any idea what I thought of my true worth was then?-------

I don't know. I do know that religion is often used to keep people in their "place" (i.e.poor).

----------------------------------------
Of course, state schools (in the UK) have a duty to promote Christianity/Anglicanism.
-------------------------------------------------Is this true? I thought that it was considered racism nowadays to promote anything other than minority religions. I do remember singing some sunday school songs however.-------

Yes, it is true. There must be a daily collective act of worship, of a "broadly christian nature"; and there must be religious education of a broadly christian nature. (I'm not sure of the exact rules).

In my area, some attention is paid to Islam (which is of course yet another monotheistic religion based on both Judaism and Christianity), with a tiny nod in the direction of Sikhism; virtually no reference to Hinduism; and certainly no reference to any atheistic belief systems, or any other systems based on several gods. No paganism, no wicca, no Greek Gods (Myths, of course!) or Roman Gods, no worshipping Earth or the Sun; no Humanism, Marxism etc.

-------Did you know that if you polish pewter enough it looks like silver?-----

I will drink my Ale from a tankard made from either, but I would still rather drink it from a glass.

By the way, I like Dr. Who (try the BBC chat boards).

I'd love to stop and chat further; but it's very late, and I have to work in the morning.

Just to satisfy my curiosity - I assume that you are female. Am I right?
 

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Posted by Tiffer (# 3073) on :
 
ME! FEMALE!

No, and I have friends who can vouch for that!

The impertinance!

Have a good sleep and a good day at work.

Tiffer (From Chris-tiffer!)

PS Please become a Christian!

PPS Someone take the exclamation mark away from my keyboard.

PPS I apologise for hijacking the thread.
 

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Posted by logician (# 3266) on :
 
I give A Theist (clever, that) credit for the courage of your convictions, and keeping a promise made only to yourself.

You'll have to do better around here than the keeping the masses in their place, of-course-because-I'm-a-scientist, there wasn't a real Jesus litany. This is a group that has both individually and collectively come up with coherent (though perhaps not persuasive to you) answers to each of those. As to marxism's coherence in the 21st C...
 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
Welcome, A. Theist!

Originally posted by A. Theist:
I also doubt very much whether there even was a Jesus (is there any evidence other than the Bible?) If there was one, perhaps he was a freedom fighter/revolutionary.

I believe there are some general historical mentions. (Herodotus?) Something along the lines of "Jesus of Nazareth was crucified".

As a Marxist, I believe that religion and superstition, especially organised religion and superstition, have been tools to prevent ordinary people achieving their true worth. Tools used by the bosses/landowners/aristocracy to keep the ordinary people "in their place".

Definitely can be used that way, and has been.

Of course, state schools (in the UK) have a duty to promote Christianity/Anglicanism.

I didn't find this out until the last couple of days. Living in the US, I knew that you had a state church but not that it extended into the schools.

So, I decided that I would NEVER express my Atheist views, nor even any agnostic views, to my children until they were at least seven.

Forgive my way of putting this, but I think that's sweet!

I have kept this promise; and now my children know that there is no Father Christmas. I have not, as yet, told both of them my opinion about religion; although, when my oldest pointed out that she was an atheist, I did concur. I have not as yet told my younger daughter my opinions.

You sound like a good dad.

By the way, the background to this is that Mum is a Christian; and all grandparents are.

I'm not a parent...but I'm wondering if the best thing would be for *all* of you to sit down together. You and your wife can say, "We love you and each other very much. We see the world a bit differently. (explain *briefly*) As you grow and grow up, you'll find your own way of looking at the world--and we'll support you in that."

Also, I know there are books to help with mixed-faith marriages. Maybe there's one for your situation?

Best of luck!
 

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Posted by logician (# 3266) on :
 
golden key Pliny the Younger

Yes, you're not a parent.
 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by logician:
Yes, you're not a parent.

---

Play nicely, Logician. I was quite up front about that.

But I've heard of parents taking similar approaches in mixed-faith households. They allow for parents to have differing beliefs, without forcing the kids to *choose*.
 

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Posted by duchess [green] (# 2764) on :
 
A. Theist,
I was raised by a scientific approach dad and my-ancestors-were-Christians-so-cuturally-that-makes-me-one-I-know-my-a-b-c's ... and after hanging out in the dark corners of the Bay Area (including SF) partying all the time...went to the other extreme ...an inerrant believer...bible thumper. Watch out, it could happen to you.
 

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Posted by duchess [green] (# 2764) on :
 
the Cultural Christian I described is my mom. Dang I am tired...good night.
 

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Posted by busyknitter (# 2501) on :
 
Tangents abound in this thread.

So I thought I'd give you an update from the Wool Basket on the Santa debate.

As I said in an earlier post, I've always thought it really important that my son understands that the presents mostly come from realy people. On the way to school yesterday (which is where most of the really imprtant conversations seem to happen) he was getting very excited about Christmas, so i reminded him of that particular message. So then he asked "Who does the stockings then?...... You know Mum, I think it's really the parents sneaking around who do it". After a 2 second fight with my conscience I said "well yes, It's just a fun story, really" "aha! he said. Now I know the secret" and seemed really pleased.

Not sure what this demonstrates, except I think I still stand by what I said at first. A little bit of harmless fantasy never hurt anyone and don't get too earnest about it

BK
 

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Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
Not Pliny the Younger, logician, but Josephus.

Not Confucius, A. Theist, but the Society of Jesus.

A. Theist, you say your wife is a Christian, but seem clear that you oversee and determine your children's upbringing and beliefs. Isn't this a bit patriarchal of you? And is it workable? Or is Mrs. Theist a downtrodden little doormat who never opens her mouth, but hopes devoutly that her faith will save you all? Actually I would doubt this.
 

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Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
And even if it were the case that she said nothing, A. Theist, what about her presence and example? Tsk. Are you planning to remove your offspring from this pernicious influence before she gets to them?
 

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Posted by golden key (# 1468) on :
 
Good grief. Do we really need to be rude to A. Theist? Or try to convert him?

He's been quite open about his beliefs--a brave thing on a Christian board, especially this one.

If he really were lording it over his wife, etc., he wouldn't have been so careful with how he handled the children.
 

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Posted by A. Theist (# 3797) on :
 
To Amos, I think golden key has answered on my behalf - I have not been patriarchal, nor have I tried to over influence my children (although evey good parent sets standards of behaviour).

Even when I think that there is undue influence from society (whether RE [religious education] at school, or "Popstars" the TV programme etc.), I have tried to restrain any comments I might have.

Now, although I have strong views about organised religion, and cannot accept the non-scientific aspects, I was brought up, and even confirmed into the Anglican church. I know that much of the teachings of the church, and much of its morality, are good.

Indeed, I have even, on occasion bought the Salvation Army's Young Soldier/Kid's Alive as I felt it could only have a good influence on my children.

As I say, the point of my original post was that I feel that believing in God and in Jesus as the son of God is a fantasy; and potentially a dangerous fantasy. I wrestled with expressing these views to my children, and countering the RE, at an early age.

It was the fact that I realised that I could pretend about Santa for years, and then explain that it's not true; and that that would be harmless - so letting them believe in Jesus and God would be harmless, as I could at a later stage tell them my truth. As it turns out, I did not need to with the older one, who has decided for herself that there is no God. The younger one (who is 11, and I have only just admitted that there isn't a real Santa) still believes in God.

Don't be silly, me - of course there's a real Santa!

I hope that I haven't offended anybody by coming on here. I just wanted to show you my "mirror image" dilemma to your dilemma about being truthful about Santa.

I hope that I have illustrated that it is OK to pretend about Santa.
 

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Posted by Amos (# 44) on :
 
A_theist, I replied as I did because of your view, as you state above, that 'believing in God and in Jesus as the son of God is a fantasy and a potentially dangerous fantasy', and your remark that your wife is a Christian. You are married to someone, in that case, whose life is based on something that you believe to be 'a fantasy and a potentially dangerous fantasy'. This is simply not analogous to being married to someone who entertains the harmless fantasies of Santa and the Tooth Fairy. At the very least, you seem to have little respect for the beliefs of your wife; your assumption is that when the children reach the age of reason they will think as you do, and you congratulate yourself for waiting patiently until they come to their senses. You say nothing about the possible influence your wife might have on the children; the implication of your posts is that they will think as you do, or as instructed by you. Meanwhile you have, under your roof and very likely even in your bed, a woman who you say is a Christian. Are you quite sure she is not an influence on the young'uns?
 

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Posted by logician (# 3266) on :
 
Amos, I beg to differ. Flavius Josephus did indeed mention Jesus, but Plinius Secundus does as well. Admittedly, it is around 112 AD, but that is not terribkly far removed. Several others mention him as well; Tacitus, and the very odd letter in the British Museum which I will have to look up...

(whistle. pause)

Mara Ben Serapion. I would never have remembered it.

Anyway, small point. Josephus is the best of them.

golden key, I was amused by your comment and only meant for my chiding to bite a little. It actually is a good idea to try and rehearse in your mind how you are going to say complicated things to your children. It's just that it's not going to end up much like your quote.

I support not putting children in difficult positions, making choices over their heads, but I'm pretty sure I don't hold with the idea of teaching the sprouts very little in order to preserve their objectivity or free choice.

We don't take that attitude about nutrition, or reading, or speaking kindly to people. We teach what we believe. What A. Theist is describing is not an entirely hands-off approach and I wouldn't make that accusation. But there have been comments throughout the thread suggesting that some sort of parental neutrality is a desirable state. Balderdash. Children don't discover beliefs or puzzle them out ex nihilo. We can't be so worried about appearing to indoctrinate that we fall out the other side of the boat.

I think the option of not believing is going to be fairly obvious to children pretty soon. I teach my beliefs full-throatedly, but my sons have not remained in quite the same places that I set them down.
 

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Posted by Karl - Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
It's worth noting, however, that as this page shows, Josephus didn't quite say all the things attributed to him. It's interesting to read, however, that his basic reference to Jesus is genuine. I think some atheists have slightly over-egged their pudding on this one.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Santa was always real to me even throughout adulthood, because my grandfather palyed Santa every year at our family Christmas parties. Red suit and all.So there was the whole Mystical Elf delivering goodies thing, and then there was my Grandfather Christmas. it gave me a little different perspective on things

When I was teaching first graders (7-to-8-year-olds) at a Christian school, I was literally backed up against a wall by a group of them who said, "Okay, Kelly now really --is there a Santa?"

I groaned, and actually said, "You had to ask ME."
But the fact that they asked me was a huge compliment, because it showed they expected a straight answer from me. I hesitated as I considered the ire of their parents, our Christian setting, my own hatred of dishonesty. finally I looked up and caught the eye of one of my I-know-you're-not-supposed-to-have-them-but favourite students, and I no more would have lied to her than I would have stuck a fork in my hand. This is what I ended up saying:

"Here's my opinion," I said "and feel free to have your own. I think there was a man (blah, blah, blah,brief St. Nicholas rap) and I think that people respected and loved the man so much, that it kind of turned into a club--like a Santa Club. So that guy in the red suit ringing a bell? he really is Santa because he chooses to be, and he's in the Santa Club.And my grandpa was in the Santa Club (here I revealed to them my privilidged status as Santa's Granddaughter.) And anyone who chooses to dress up and hand out gifts to kids and make them happy--they are in the Santa Club and they really are Santa because they want to be. like you really are a Girl Scout once you join that group.

Anyway, that's they way I look at it."

This way I respected the children's need for fantasy--I kept reiterating that this was just one woman's opinion, so if they were not ready to take that developmental leap out of Magical Thinking they didn't have to, but at the same time I told the truth in a way I thought they could handle. And I really do like the idea of a santa club.
 

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Posted by mrs.stewart (# 3798) on :
 
Ok I'm sorry - again - for not reading all the posts on this thread. Probably doesn't give me license to speak but here I go anyway.

When i was all of around 5 my father was having me for xmas (on rotation with my mother every year). Late on xmas eve I heard santa claus, yes, THE REAL santa clause tucking into the nuts n pies left out by us every year for him + a tot of rum and some carrots for the reindeer. I crept silently down the corridor all but for my heart pounding in my chest and nearly shaking at the prospect of probably being the FIRST CHILD EVER to have seen the living claus and...would I live to tell the tale?
Seeing my Dad sitting in the kitchen finishing the paper and casually helping himself to the gifts WE had left for santa I had the deepest, sinking feeling in my heart as I realized it was, a lie. I think this feeling really came from the propensity to which my father and those around him had drilled into me about the existence of claus including scenarious involving fires being lit in grates if i wasn't a good girl and didn't go to bed (how will he get into the flat daddy?)

So i think that what some people have put to this thread have been really helpful in how to find a balance (Enosh et al). I do think the encouragement of a child's imagination is important and I like the moulding of the story around Jesus not the other way round. The only thing i can compare to that feeling xmas eve 1985? was discovering what i had believed about God and salvation to be wrong sept 1998. Don't mean to dramatise but i think it's really inportant to be gentle with young minds and encourage hopes not destroy them.

i don't have any kids but if i do i think I will use some of the things read here. Happy Christmas!
 

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Posted by HoosierNan (# 91) on :
 
I agree with Enosh and Mousethief. It can undermine a child's faith in Jesus if he/she is asked to believe in Santa Claus, and finds out it is not true.

I very clearly remember finding out that Santa Claus was not true, and George Washington didn't really confess to chopping down the cherry tree (American folk tale) within the same month. Since these two stories are supposed to inspire children to virtue, and the Jesus story is supposed to do the same, could this Jesus stuff be nothing more than another elaborate, manipulative, adults controlling children through guilt hoax?

It was several years before I got my faith back.

My husband had the some experience.

When we had children, we decided on this plan:

We told them that Santa Claus is a pretend person, like Big Bird and Oscar and Cookie Monster on Sesame Street (a TV show). And that it is fun to pretend about him, and polite to do so when other people are pretending. That way, they got the fun of Santa and my husband and I have kept our integrity.

And, as someone else mentioned, now that my children are in their teens, I can look them in the eye and say that I have never lied to them--not even about Santa Claus, the tooth fairy, or the Easter Bunny. And the level of trust in our home is much greater than that of any other parents of teenagers in my social circle.
 

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Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
HoosierNan, I'm glad you're back - I was concerned about you......

I think it is up to the individual parents to decide how to play the Santa thing. That is why it is wrong for other adults to decide to spill the beans. It sounds as if you have stuck to the courage of your convictions and it has worked for your family, but you also taught them to respect those who did want to pretend to their children.
I suppose a parallel can be found in our attitude to other religions (which we may believe are false) - believe what you know to be true, but respect the others who may think differently.

I personally went along with the Santa thing, but never made a big thing of it. That way, there might have been some disappointment but not so much. Son no. 2 was actually quite relieved when he realised, because he had been rather frightened of the idea of this stranger coming into his home at night - he always refused to put the stocking in his bedroom and left it by the Christmas tree.
 

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Posted by gandalf36 (# 2672) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Newman's Own:
I personally think that children are far more intelligent, and bigger realists, than we know. Except for the very little ones,

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I laughed when I read this because the opposit is true with our boys. This year my youngest son of 5 years came to us and said (matter of factly) "All dads are Santa". I, who had debated long and hard on this 'Truth of Santa' issue, asked what he meant and he explained that it was impossable for Santa to do all that work.I asked him who told him that and he said no one he just knows.

My oldest son of 10, very similar to one of the other posters in the thread, believes in santa but thinks he has helpers all over the world.

You can imagine the arguments between the two

As a side note, two years ago I told my oldest that Santa was not real He was heartbroken, in tears and depressed for three days. Untill on Christmas morning he found two presents outside our front door from Santa. Mom saved the day.
 

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Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 
I can't be bothered to read this whole thread.

But I thought you all should know that NORAD believes in Santa.

NORAD Santa-tracking site
 

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Posted by Ooktavia (# 3837) on :
 
I was probably about 8 when I conciously decided the Father Christmas thing wasn't "real" but I kept my mouth shut for another two years, before the gaffe was blown. I didn't want to (a) disturb my parents, or (b) lose the stocking.
That said, I am 26 now and I *still* get a christmas stocking! When we were 10 and upwards, "Mother Christmas" turned up- she gives my parents *their* christmas stockings.
I don't think finding out about FC will cause children to not beleive in God permanently unless they don't have any more understanding of him than they do of FC. That is, if God isn't made more relevant than once or twice -a-year presents, kids might class God, Jesus et al as in the same class as the tooth fairy etc.
And that's where parents come in- by bringing God- or atheism, or whatever path they have chosen ton walk into everyday life, without brainwashing the kids into the choices they made.
 

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Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ooktavia:
I am 26 now and I *still* get a christmas stocking!

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