• Different perceptions of what constitutes "harassment" or "frequent"? (I doubt it; people seem pretty good at objectively cataloguing their experiences.)
• Walking around in different neighbourhoods, at different times of the day? (But the harassed women on that thread insist they experience it in all sorts of neighbourhoods; and I've seen discussions on LiveJournal where people report it in my own neighbourhood.)
• Differences in our physical appearance? (Maybe. If so, what differences exactly?)
• Something else?

quote:

---

Originally posted by chive:
I don't know how to define harassment but I do know it happens. I could never be described as a young, thin, leggy blonde but last week when walking to the corner shop in jeans, a jumper and a fleece (ooh what sexy clothes) I was surrounded by a group of four men who repeatedly shouted at me asking how much for a shag? When I told them that even if they won the lottery they couldn't afford it they called me an ugly dyke and walked off.

Things like that are, imo, definitely harassment and are also intimidating and potentially frightening. They don't happen every day or even every week but maybe two or three times a year. Does this happen to men? I'm genuinely curious because I've never seen it.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by seekingsister:
At work we were talking about sexual assault while travelling for work (part of a training) and I mentioned this situation. I was told by several male colleagues that getting your behind squeezed by a stranger doesn't qualify.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by seekingsister:
I've had my butt grabbed twice in London Underground stations. Once I was with my husband, once I was alone. In neither case was I dressed in any particularly attention seeking fashion.

At work we were talking about sexual assault while travelling for work (part of a training) and I mentioned this situation. I was told by several male colleagues that getting your behind squeezed by a stranger doesn't qualify. Perhaps "assault" is a strong word but it's certainly sexual molestation and it made me feel unsafe. My body is not public property for anyone who feels like it to touch as they please.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by chive:
Does this happen to men? I'm genuinely curious because I've never seen it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariston:


By the way, am I the only one who thinks it odd to catcall someone, and, when she says no, to call her ugly and easy? Five seconds ago, you were propositioning her, calling her pretty, telling her to smile; when she showed she wasn't interested, that makes her easy? So much for it "just being a compliment."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by seekingsister:
I was told by several male colleagues that getting your behind squeezed by a stranger doesn't qualify.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:

quote:

---

Originally posted by seekingsister:
At work we were talking about sexual assault while travelling for work (part of a training) and I mentioned this situation. I was told by several male colleagues that getting your behind squeezed by a stranger doesn't qualify.

---

They were wrong.

I speak as the father of a young woman. It does qualify. Whether it is assault or not is a matter for lawyers, but it would lead to a definite punch in the mouth for any of your male colleagues who tried to touch up my daughter. See if they think it doesn't qualify then.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
In other (already sexually charged) contexts, perhaps someone grabbing your behind could pass for flirtation, but on a train?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

"But how can you tell it's not sincere?" Oh, it's obvious. They make sure it's obvious, How can you get a good shame reaction unless you let them know you are shaming them?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fineline:
I agree, Doublethink. One's looks should not be a subject of comment to strangers walking down the streets - they are completely irrelevant.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet:
I wish things could be different but they are not. I wish that raising daughters confidently into women was enough. The problem is a male one, and men have to shout and sometimes more when they see such behaviour. If men don't it won't change.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
My daughter has smacked 2 people in the mouth for doing just this. They quickly scarper - she's tall and pretty strong and drew blood. A proportionate response to the issue I'd suggest.

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quote:

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Originally posted by no prophet:
I wish things could be different but they are not. I wish that raising daughters confidently into women was enough. The problem is a male one, and men have to shout and sometimes more when they see such behaviour. If men don't it won't change.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
That's very likely, but I don't want to spend my life making random male strangers feel more secure. I have enough to do dealing with my own people.

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quote:

---

If someone makes a fairly benign comment to me, which it still does on occasion, I always meet their eye, smile, and then look away or down.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:

...the ones who name femicide "honour killing"...

---

quote:

---

And would it be resentment in the men at the reactions of their bodies that drives all that nasty medieval stuff about women being the sewerish gateway to Hell?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by ken:
Fear of women is inherent in any religion controlled entirely by celibate males.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Penny S:
And the revulsion at the nasty blood. (I did hear of one priest, back before the post was open to women, worrying about this very thing. And no-one told him not to be silly.)

---

Back when in TEC women could be deacon but only that, one deacon told the congregation some priests told her women must not be allowed near the altar because "women bleed."

When I was a kid women weren't allowed to enter the fenced off area. Chatting about old days one woman told me it confused her that women were not allowed in that holy space - unless it needed vacuuming!
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jane R:
Fool on the hill:

quote:

---

If someone makes a fairly benign comment to me, which it still does on occasion, I always meet their eye, smile, and then look away or down.

---

That might be safer than just ignoring them where you are, but where I live it would be construed by most men as an expression of (mild) interest in continuing a flirtation.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:
And what if it's viewed as encouragement? A come-on?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Belle Ringer:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
And the revulsion at the nasty blood. (I did hear of one priest, back before the post was open to women, worrying about this very thing. And no-one told him not to be silly.)

---

Back when in TEC women could be deacon but only that, one deacon told the congregation some priests told her women must not be allowed near the altar because "women bleed."

When I was a kid women weren't allowed to enter the fenced off area. Chatting about old days one woman told me it confused her that women were not allowed in that holy space - unless it needed vacuuming!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Interesting that this discussion about the reaction of men to being perved by other men should have come up recently.

It may illustrate the point about men: they don't like it when they can see that thy are not in charge. A woman having the gall to reject the sexual demand is a Bad Thing, and deserves to be put down or verbally assaulted. Similarly, a man treating the man as "just a piece of ass" (as the article says) is a danger to an already-stressed masculinity, and must be repelled at all costs.

In either case, the reaction is to do something to push back, since it makes the shouter aware of his insecurity.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
I've seen men make a fairly benign comment to them, which they ignore and walk away. Then I see the men look quite annoyed, and sometimes a dark look will cross their face and sometimes they make a more aggressive comment.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Similarly, a man treating the man as "just a piece of ass" (as the article says) is a danger to an already-stressed masculinity, and must be repelled at all costs.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Talitha:
So one or two people have said they walk around lost in their own little world, and don't experience harassment. I do too. So maybe we're getting it and not noticing it, or maybe there's something about the bearing of someone lost in thought that makes people less likely to yell at them? I'd be surprised, actually - I might expect the lost-in-thought look to be the topic of rude comments itself.

---

quote:

---

I think to ignore benign comments that are unaccompanied by overtly aggressive body language or tone shows fear and frankly, rudeness.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Here is my take. The person approaching should be prepared for a negative response. The person being approached has no obligations. My response is based on the manner of approach, not whether I am pleased by the one approaching. If they are polite, then my rejection will be polite. However, no matter the situation, the one approaching has no right of polite response.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
But I also have to say that I do not see the harm in the words, "how are you getting on?"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
But I also have to say that I do not see the harm in the words, "how are you getting on?"

---

Not even when delivered from a slowly-moving car to a woman walking? Or do you regard kerb-crawling as essentially benign?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
I think to ignore benign comments that are unaccompanied by overtly aggressive body language or ton shows fear and frankly, rudeness.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
But I also have to say that I do not see the harm in the words, "how are you getting on?"

---

Not even when delivered from a slowly-moving car to a woman walking? Or do you regard kerb-crawling as essentially benign?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
I think to ignore benign comments that are unaccompanied by overtly aggressive body language or ton shows fear and frankly, rudeness.

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
But I also have to say that I do not see the harm in the words, "how are you getting on?"

---

Not even when delivered from a slowly-moving car to a woman walking? Or do you regard kerb-crawling as essentially benign?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
I think to ignore benign comments that are unaccompanied by overtly aggressive body language or ton shows fear and frankly, rudeness.

---

---

kerb crawling
n
1. the act of driving slowly along the edge of the pavement seeking to entice someone into the car for sexual purposes
kerb crawler n
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003

I think soliciting for sex, however politely conducted, still deserves the response it got.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
But I also have to say that I do not see the harm in the words, "how are you getting on?"

---

Not even when delivered from a slowly-moving car to a woman walking? Or do you regard kerb-crawling as essentially benign?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
I think to ignore benign comments that are unaccompanied by overtly aggressive body language or ton shows fear and frankly, rudeness.

---

---

kerb crawling
n
1. the act of driving slowly along the edge of the pavement seeking to entice someone into the car for sexual purposes
kerb crawler n
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003

I think soliciting for sex, however politely conducted, still deserves the response it got.

---

I thought my mention of aggressive body language made it clear that of course "kerb crawling" is not what I was talking about.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
But I also have to say that I do not see the harm in the words, "how are you getting on?"

---

Not even when delivered from a slowly-moving car to a woman walking? Or do you regard kerb-crawling as essentially benign?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
I think to ignore benign comments that are unaccompanied by overtly aggressive body language or ton shows fear and frankly, rudeness.

---

---

quote:

---

Benign comments where they are not wanted or make the recipient feel unsafe are still offensive and unacceptable. Sexism is frequently dressed up as politeness or benign comments, still wrong.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jade Constable:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
But I also have to say that I do not see the harm in the words, "how are you getting on?"

---

Not even when delivered from a slowly-moving car to a woman walking? Or do you regard kerb-crawling as essentially benign?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
I think to ignore benign comments that are unaccompanied by overtly aggressive body language or ton shows fear and frankly, rudeness.

---

---

Benign comments where they are not wanted or make the recipient feel unsafe are still offensive and unacceptable. Sexism is frequently dressed up as politeness or benign comments, still wrong.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Firenze:
Until such time as you are certifiably outwith your tenure of fertility/sexual attractiveness, I don't think you can take any unsolicited approach from strangers as without an agenda.

It can take a while: I still got comments (albeit of the 'I don't think much of that one') when passing a group, anyone of whom I was old enough to be the mother of.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:
Until such time as you are certifiably outwith your tenure of fertility/sexual attractiveness, I don't think you can take any unsolicited approach from strangers as without an agenda.

It can take a while: I still got comments (albeit of the 'I don't think much of that one') when passing a group, anyone of whom I was old enough to be the mother of.

---

That sounds fearful to me. I wouldn't want live my life like that. And I still claim that even if there is an agenda, the safest way to safely navigate it is to politely respond and move on.

(Unless you are being followed, in a car, or on foot, and that is predatory and you should take whatever precautions you need to maintain your safety)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:


So, I maintain, if someone were to say to me, "how are you?" on the street, I would make eye contact say "fine" and move on. I think to ignore benign comments that are unaccompanied by overtly aggressive body language or tone shows fear and frankly, rudeness.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:


So, I maintain, if someone were to say to me, "how are you?" on the street, I would make eye contact say "fine" and move on. I think to ignore benign comments that are unaccompanied by overtly aggressive body language or tone shows fear and frankly, rudeness.

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See, I totally agree with the first sentence, and totally disagree with the second. The response you describe is pretty much what I would do,but I would never suggest another woman should alter her personal comfort level to fit my expecatations of courtesy. We do far too much to encourage women to secod-guess their instincts; I'd far rather see some one walk away feeling mildly rebuffed than insist a woman drop her guard for my approval.

And for the record. I am pretty sure Firenze's description of her response to " how's it going for you? was meant to be intenal monologue-- least that's how I read it. ( I probably would say," buddy, you don't want to know.")

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Isn't it a form of sexism to say that any comment made by a man that is motivated by appreciation of someone's looks should be assumed to be said with a malicious agenda?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Isn't it a form of sexism to say that any comment made by a man that is motivated by appreciation of someone's looks should be assumed to be said with a malicious agenda?

---

Nobody said that, people just seem to be saying they are entitled to deal with strangers approaching as they see fit. Even if it's only because I am feeling shy that day, I should be able to avoid contact I don't want without the world climbing down my throat. If someone chooses to project a lot of attitudes/ assumptions on me based on that choice, it's kind of their problem.

And other women should be equally free,without me deciding they are man- hating neurotics.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:
Until such time as you are certifiably outwith your tenure of fertility/sexual attractiveness, I don't think you can take any unsolicited approach from strangers as without an agenda.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
exist.

I didn't say a man hating neurotic, and I didn't say everyone isn't free to respond as they please. Just that people are also free to judge someone's response as rude.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:

So, I maintain, if someone were to say to me, "how are you?" on the street, I would make eye contact say "fine" and move on.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I am going to take a wild guess and say people who live in predominantly urban areas are more likely to have apprehension about strangers bouncing up to you.

---

The only time in my life I have been propositioned for sex was by another guy in the depths of the French countryside miles from anywhere.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
...

OK! There goes my theory!
 

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Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
I take the point about responding to an honest enquiry. Or would, where it not for those times when I did reply to a request for information/assistance - and spent the next 10 minutes trying physically and verbally to extract myself from their company.

You go by your experience, and consult it as necessary.
 

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Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:
I take the point about responding to an honest enquiry. Or would, where it not for those times when I did reply to a request for information/assistance - and spent the next 10 minutes trying physically and verbally to extract myself from their company.

You go by your experience, and consult it as necessary.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
The only time in my life I have been propositioned for sex was by another guy in the depths of the French countryside miles from anywhere.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
I've seen men make a fairly benign comment to them, which they ignore and walk away. Then I see the men look quite annoyed, and sometimes a dark look will cross their face and sometimes they make a more aggressive comment. If someone makes a fairly benign comment to me, which it still does on occasion, I always meet their eye, smile, and then look away or down. I think to do otherwise shows disrespect, and insecurity.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:

So, I maintain, if someone were to say to me, "how are you?" on the street, I would make eye contact say "fine" and move on.

---

Not sure - a complete stranger stops you as you are walking down the street to ask "How are you?" At best, that's a bit weird. It's not a mere social nicety, for which your choice of "Hello", "Hi" or "Good (Morning|Afternoon)", possibly accompanied by a doffing of headgear, would be appropriate.

Asking "How are you?" presumes that a conversation exists. From a friend or acquaintance, that's fine, and from a shopkeeper, market vendor or someone else you're engaging in an interaction with, it's fine, but at best it presumes rather a lot for a random stranger passing you in the street.

If I was a woman, and inclined for whatever reason to feel nervous of strangers, I'm pretty sure I would be creeped out at best by someone asking "How are you?" like that.

On the other hand, if the person asks "Excuse me, can you tell me how I get to the station?" or something else normal, I'd be less inclined to worry.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fineline:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
I've seen men make a fairly benign comment to them, which they ignore and walk away. Then I see the men look quite annoyed, and sometimes a dark look will cross their face and sometimes they make a more aggressive comment. If someone makes a fairly benign comment to me, which it still does on occasion, I always meet their eye, smile, and then look away or down. I think to do otherwise shows disrespect, and insecurity.

---

I completely disagree. If men are saying something to these attractive women hoping for a response, and getting angry when they don't get it, that says way more about them than the women. No one is obliged to respond to a stranger on the street.

I live in a fairly rural area and I say hello to people I pass on the street, because that seems to be the norm here. Now, I'm female, so it's not going to be interpreted as a male to female flirtation thing. And it's literally just a hello. But I am not offended if someone doesn't respond, because everyone is different. I certainly don't expect eye contact. Not everyone does eye contact. Not everyone does smiles either. When you say something to a stranger, you have no idea what's going on in their head - they could have just experienced a tragedy, they could be someone with a disability that stops them being able to talk, or to smile even, they could be from a culture where they don't say hello to strangers, or all kinds of things. To say something to someone on the street and then get angry that they don't respond is rather presumptuous of these men, I think.

And I'm guessing that 'fairly benign' means more than just a hello? Or not? To me, 'hello' is completely benign.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I echo those comments about Ireland. Stand outside a pub in summer, and usually you will be involved in a conversation in about 5 minutes, with probably some nice tales about salmon poaching or the like.

Say you're from London, and people get quite animated - I remember 'I went there once, and 'twas disgusting'!

But I remember when I first went with my wife up to Lancashire and Yorkshire, where I have family connections, and she was startled by the friendliness of people in the streets, shops, pubs, just about anywhere. But she grew to like it. Somebody asking 'how are you?' is quite normal in some areas, not just in rural areas.

My wife has also been a great walker all her life, and she regularly tramps around London and Norfolk on her own, day and night, with no apparent problems.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
I see my friends regularly ignore "hello", and "how are you, ladies?"

I think it's best to respond politely because it shows confidence and confidence can derail potential actual harassment. It has nothing to do with entitlement.

I think it's best to respond politely because polite is, well, polite.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fineline:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
I've seen men make a fairly benign comment to them, which they ignore and walk away. Then I see the men look quite annoyed, and sometimes a dark look will cross their face and sometimes they make a more aggressive comment. If someone makes a fairly benign comment to me, which it still does on occasion, I always meet their eye, smile, and then look away or down. I think to do otherwise shows disrespect, and insecurity.

---

I completely disagree. If men are saying something to these attractive women hoping for a response, and getting angry when they don't get it, that says way more about them than the women. No one is obliged to respond to a stranger on the street.

I live in a fairly rural area and I say hello to people I pass on the street, because that seems to be the norm here. Now, I'm female, so it's not going to be interpreted as a male to female flirtation thing. And it's literally just a hello. But I am not offended if someone doesn't respond, because everyone is different. I certainly don't expect eye contact. Not everyone does eye contact. Not everyone does smiles either. When you say something to a stranger, you have no idea what's going on in their head - they could have just experienced a tragedy, they could be someone with a disability that stops them being able to talk, or to smile even, they could be from a culture where they don't say hello to strangers, or all kinds of things. To say something to someone on the street and then get angry that they don't respond is rather presumptuous of these men, I think.

And I'm guessing that 'fairly benign' means more than just a hello? Or not? To me, 'hello' is completely benign.

---

"The dark look" incident I noticed once.

I see my friends regularly ignore "hello", and "how are you, ladies?"

I think it's best to respond politely because it shows confidence and confidence can derail potential actual harassment. It has nothing to do with entitlement.

I think it's best to respond politely because polite is, well, polite.

---

It has everything to do with entitlement. The men making comments assume they are entitled to a conversation, when they are not. Responding reinforces that.

I'd never respond anyway given that responding could get me raped and murdered
 

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Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
Honest Ron - really difficult to say - we get older and the way men respond to older women means that my experiences 20 odd years ago wouldn't be comparable to anything I'm experiencing now.

Years ago, out with a friend in Covent Garden, she pointed out when I got whistled at or shouted comments. Across the street or market I just assumed that there was someone else being whistled at and ignored it, and hadn't really paid attention. It made me really uncomfortable for a few days until I could put that back into the box of "happening to someone else".

I tend to say "Thank you" or "Fine" and keep moving when addressed in the street.
 

---

Posted by Fool on the hill (# 9428) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jade Constable:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fineline:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
I've seen men make a fairly benign comment to them, which they ignore and walk away. Then I see the men look quite annoyed, and sometimes a dark look will cross their face and sometimes they make a more aggressive comment. If someone makes a fairly benign comment to me, which it still does on occasion, I always meet their eye, smile, and then look away or down. I think to do otherwise shows disrespect, and insecurity.

---

I completely disagree. If men are saying something to these attractive women hoping for a response, and getting angry when they don't get it, that says way more about them than the women. No one is obliged to respond to a stranger on the street.

I live in a fairly rural area and I say hello to people I pass on the street, because that seems to be the norm here. Now, I'm female, so it's not going to be interpreted as a male to female flirtation thing. And it's literally just a hello. But I am not offended if someone doesn't respond, because everyone is different. I certainly don't expect eye contact. Not everyone does eye contact. Not everyone does smiles either. When you say something to a stranger, you have no idea what's going on in their head - they could have just experienced a tragedy, they could be someone with a disability that stops them being able to talk, or to smile even, they could be from a culture where they don't say hello to strangers, or all kinds of things. To say something to someone on the street and then get angry that they don't respond is rather presumptuous of these men, I think.

And I'm guessing that 'fairly benign' means more than just a hello? Or not? To me, 'hello' is completely benign.

---

"The dark look" incident I noticed once.

I see my friends regularly ignore "hello", and "how are you, ladies?"

I think it's best to respond politely because it shows confidence and confidence can derail potential actual harassment. It has nothing to do with entitlement.

I think it's best to respond politely because polite is, well, polite.

---

It has everything to do with entitlement. The men making comments assume they are entitled to a conversation, when they are not. Responding reinforces that.

I'd never respond anyway given that responding could get me raped and murdered

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Let me apologize now. I just got finished talking with my son's girlfriend and I've realized that I don't like the way I've responded.

I think I'm just getting frustrated. I feel like your insistence that I should not respond somewhat offensive because it seems to indirectly insinuate that a woman who does respond as I do, and even may enjoy the appreciation, that I then "deserve" what I might get. I don't at all think that you would think such a monstrous thing, but I realize that is the root of my frustration. I would respond with a smile and a thank you, I would not break stride, however. And I'm not changing.

It's also frustrating to not be heard what I'm saying about behaving with confidence, which is what helps me feel safe in my world.

My son's girlfriend was telling me similar stories that I've heard here. People grabbing her, following her, and it's awful.

I do think that to not respond to a simple hello is rude. However, men should know that if a woman does ignore that, it is most likely due to the predatory and disrespectful behavior of other men.

So, you respond as you do, and I respond as I would, and there should be no judgement on either end.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
I think I'm just getting frustrated. I feel like your insistence that I should not respond somewhat offensive because it seems to indirectly insinuate that a woman who does respond as I do, and even may enjoy the appreciation, that I then "deserve" what I might get.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
What I guess I keep asking is can't anyone see how repeated dodgy incidents might make someone hypervigilant? Whether they agree with the resulting MO or not?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I guess that is what I meant by this:

quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
What I guess I keep asking is can't anyone see how repeated dodgy incidents might make someone hypervigilant? Whether they agree with the resulting MO or not?

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This thread alone has offered up many reasons a woman in particular might find herself hypervigilant-- whether customarily or situationally. I just think we should cut ladies who are in that space some slack, because we really don't know what the story is.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ecumaniac:
The thing that irritates me most about this thread is women calling my nonresponse tactic "rude".

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
So then if you know it's because of fear, please don't call them (or those of us who do the same) rude. Self-preservation is not rude, those who talk to them are not entitled to a conversation.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fool on the hill:

quote:

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Originally posted by ecumaniac:
The thing that irritates me most about this thread is women calling my nonresponse tactic "rude".

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
So then if you know it's because of fear, please don't call them (or those of us who do the same) rude. Self-preservation is not rude, those who talk to them are not entitled to a conversation.

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I'm being very specific here. Once, when I was walking with my friends on the streets on the way to a bar dressed nicely, some men said to them, "Good Evening ladies." My friends ignored them. I saw no reason to ignore them. I can call that rude, imo, I was there. I understand why they ignored that particular greeting and person.

Due to differing contexts, (which I have repeatedly remarked on throughout this whole thread) and environments, I can't possibly judge any of your situations. (And if it seems like I have I apologize)

But I can most certainly judge my own experiences.

My friends (one comes to mind particularly) are afraid which comes across as rude. I think (one) she is like that because of personal situations she has encountered. That is very sad. And I honestly worry for her, because I feel, (stating again) that she radiates fear with that countenance and she needs to radiate confidence. And she is like that because other men have been disrespectful to her.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Ridiculous. I'm not policing anything.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:

quote:

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Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Ridiculous. I'm not policing anything.

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You are making some very rude comments about your friend's behaviour that perpetuate the idea that women are public property and that rudeness is worse than women's safety. Fear is a TOTALLY VALID reason to ignore someone. It is not rude. It is hardwired into us. There is no 'should' about how your friend should feel, please let her have ownership over her own emotions and not try to change her so sh
e is more socially acceptable.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
You have absolutely no idea who my friend is, what she is like or how my relationship is with her.

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quote:

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Rennard's cause was not helped by a BBC interview in which one of his supporters, Chris Davies MEP, said: "This is not Jimmy Savile. This is touching someone's leg six years ago at a meeting through clothing. This is the equivalent a few years ago of an Italian man pinching a woman's bottom. How much is this man going to have to suffer through media condemnation that comes out day after day fed by the party leadership? It is completely out of proportion, nonsense and outrageous."

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
My friends (one comes to mind particularly) are afraid which comes across as rude. I think (one) she is like that because of personal situations she has encountered. That is very sad. And I honestly worry for her, because I feel, (stating again) that she radiates fear with that countenance and she needs to radiate confidence. And she is like that because other men have been disrespectful to her.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
... Fear is a TOTALLY VALID reason to ignore someone. ... It is hardwired into us. ...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Soror Magna:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
... Fear is a TOTALLY VALID reason to ignore someone. ... It is hardwired into us. ...

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If you're going to play the "hardwired" card, please explain how ignoring danger is a succesful evolutionary strategy. ISTM that "La la la I'm not looking" is a really good way to end up as somebody's lunch.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
<snip> It has everything to do with entitlement. The men making comments assume they are entitled to a conversation, when they are not. Responding reinforces that.

I'd never respond anyway given that responding could get me raped and murdered

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quote:

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Originally posted by Alicïa:
There is a big difference between responding directly to danger, and ignoring it. When was the last time you responded by being polite to a creature that may eat you for lunch? If your going for that metaphor.

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I'm not sure I'd agree that someone choosing not to respond to a stranger's greeting on the street is "rude" even if the non-responder isn't frightened.

I think it's lovely to live in a friendly community where people offer greetings to strangers. But those greetings ought to be offered on their own merit, without demanding anything in return. I don't think a stranger on the street should be obligated by some unwritten social code to respond in any way if they choose not to-- for whatever reason. A "hello" is just a "hello"-- not a demand for social interaction.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Soror Magna:

quote:

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Originally posted by Alicïa:
There is a big difference between responding directly to danger, and ignoring it. When was the last time you responded by being polite to a creature that may eat you for lunch? If your going for that metaphor.

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There's also a huge range of options between "being polite" (whatever that is) and ignoring danger. Animals also use a lot of different strategies to evade predators or avoid detection. A group of small birds will mob a hawk, for example. Sometimes just a behavioural "I see you" - the animal equivalent of nodding or making eye contact - is enough to dissuade a predator. However, it is a myth that ostriches stick their heads in the sand when they are scared. Only people think, "I didn't see you, so you didn't see me, hee hee!"

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
It has everything to do with entitlement. The men making comments assume they are entitled to a conversation, when they are not. Responding reinforces that.

I'd never respond anyway given that responding could get me raped and murdered

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Point being, unless you are willing to pull X person aside and say, "I noticed you drew away from that guy, and he seemed perfectly friendly to me-- what was wrong?" and genuinely consider the response-- (which could be anything from something stupid like "His shoes were cheap." to something serious like,"He looked exactly like the guy who grabbed my boob on the Muni this morning, and I wasn't gonna stick around to see if he was") -- person should really take their time about judging someone's response.

(for the record: building on those posts, not arguing with them.)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

quote:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I'm not sure I'd agree that someone choosing not to respond to a stranger's greeting on the street is "rude" even if the non-responder isn't frightened.

I think it's lovely to live in a friendly community where people offer greetings to strangers. But those greetings ought to be offered on their own merit, without demanding anything in return. I don't think a stranger on the street should be obligated by some unwritten social code to respond in any way if they choose not to-- for whatever reason. A "hello" is just a "hello"-- not a demand for social interaction.

---

See Augustine's post above.

Further point-- "Prowlers"( for lack of a better word), street ministers, and solicitors all use a person's fear of being rude as leverage for continuing a conversation, even when the person has made it clear they don't want to be in it. People can be pinned helplessly in place forever because they haven't the heart to interrupt someone.Making people (of either gender-- thanks for your input, Augustine!)too beholden to courtesy gives people who tend toward manipulation a great tool for manipulating others.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Alicïa:



When was the last time you responded by being polite to a creature that may eat you for lunch? If your going for that metaphor.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Gwai:
Definitely think that the issue with Fool on the Hill's friend sounds cultural to me. I don't know whether FotH and her friend live in an urban area or not, but certainly in my urban area most people don't respond when strangers speak to them on the street. I certainly don't feel any obligation though if the person seems polite enough, and not pushy or crazy, I might respond briefly as I continue to walk briskly away. Certainly I have noticed that my husband is one of the few people I know who even bothers to respond with a "No thanks!" to beggars and Streetwise vendors.

FotH sees a place where everyone responds to everyone as friendly, while I've lived in a small backstabbing town, and had an absolutely miserable time of it. So that sounds much more nightmarish to me. When everyone speaks to everyone, who counts as no one? Who is left out? Someone always is, so I'd rather live in an unfriendly place where no one speaks with no one!

Re human predators or those who might be such, I tend to think it safest to let them know I am aware of them and that I am not intimidated. I also don't give them any other reaction to catch their interest. Best way to avoid a scene is for us both to continue on our business, I think.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ken:

quote:

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Originally posted by Alicïa:



When was the last time you responded by being polite to a creature that may eat you for lunch? If your going for that metaphor.

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In the unlikely event that I ever met a creature likely to eat me for lunch I'm pretty damn sure I'd start off by being very polite.

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Oh.

Well when you put it like that it sounds right, but this is the problem with metaphors and such they can be quite misleading in understanding a situation.

Polite yes, but reserving the right not to engage with it is not what I personally would call impolite, in real and imaginary situations.

As for being harassed in the street which is after all the OP, I have experienced it framed as being friendly. Like being followed for a good mile being asked to go for a drink with someone who obviously thought they were being nice, just because I smiled at them and I had no interest in going for a drink with that person, only getting into a taxi stopped them from following me. That time I feel that looking back - completely ignoring their comment would have been better.

It's mild but a polite no thank you did not seem to deter the individual till it became very creepy indeed. I have several similar experiences and although I have come to no relative harm unwanted attention is unwanted attention and as you can never tell what someones intentions are, I err on the side of caution, including when I feel it warrants it, completely ignoring people.

If this is not a good "evolutionary strategy" in some peoples opinion that is fine, but in mine it has served me well enough and I don't feel the onus is on me to spare peoples feelings it is on them also to be polite in the first place.

[ 21. January 2014, 15:04: Message edited by: Alicïa ]
 

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Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
I live in the suburbs, but we go to the city frequently, and that's where these things occur. I can tell the difference between a flirtatious hello, a completely innocent hello, and a hello that implies they mean to follow me.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
It's dawning on me that part of the problem is that I am a lot friendlier than I think I am.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
This conversation came to mind yesterday morning as I managed to get into conversation with the guy on the temporary traffic light duty. My fault, I was looking his way thinking camera angles and he said hello, so we exchanged a couple of comments as I kept walking. That's not unusual.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Let me apologize now. I just got finished talking with my son's girlfriend and I've realized that I don't like the way I've responded.

I think I'm just getting frustrated. I feel like your insistence that I should not respond somewhat offensive because it seems to indirectly insinuate that a woman who does respond as I do, and even may enjoy the appreciation, that I then "deserve" what I might get. I don't at all think that you would think such a monstrous thing, but I realize that is the root of my frustration. I would respond with a smile and a thank you, I would not break stride, however. And I'm not changing.

It's also frustrating to not be heard what I'm saying about behaving with confidence, which is what helps me feel safe in my world.

My son's girlfriend was telling me similar stories that I've heard here. People grabbing her, following her, and it's awful.

I do think that to not respond to a simple hello is rude. However, men should know that if a woman does ignore that, it is most likely due to the predatory and disrespectful behavior of other men.

So, you respond as you do, and I respond as I would, and there should be no judgement on either end.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fool on the hill:

quote:

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Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
This conversation came to mind yesterday morning as I managed to get into conversation with the guy on the temporary traffic light duty. My fault, I was looking his way thinking camera angles and he said hello, so we exchanged a couple of comments as I kept walking. That's not unusual.

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Struck by, "my fault". Fault? Those moments can be lovely moments in life. Connection.

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quote:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:

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Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Let me apologize now. I just got finished talking with my son's girlfriend and I've realized that I don't like the way I've responded.

I think I'm just getting frustrated. I feel like your insistence that I should not respond somewhat offensive because it seems to indirectly insinuate that a woman who does respond as I do, and even may enjoy the appreciation, that I then "deserve" what I might get. I don't at all think that you would think such a monstrous thing, but I realize that is the root of my frustration. I would respond with a smile and a thank you, I would not break stride, however. And I'm not changing.

It's also frustrating to not be heard what I'm saying about behaving with confidence, which is what helps me feel safe in my world.

My son's girlfriend was telling me similar stories that I've heard here. People grabbing her, following her, and it's awful.

I do think that to not respond to a simple hello is rude. However, men should know that if a woman does ignore that, it is most likely due to the predatory and disrespectful behavior of other men.

So, you respond as you do, and I respond as I would, and there should be no judgement on either end.

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It's the "not respond = rude" part that's problematic-- for the exact same reasons that you dislike it when others try to change your habit of responding with confidence.

The point in both cases is not to be controlled by fear, but also not to be controlled by another person's behavior. We should not feel bound to either respond or not respond by the actions of a stranger. Different people will respond differently in that situation for a variety of reasons-- temperament, cultural background, past experiences, prior presuppositions. They should be free to do so without being labeled either "foolish" or "rude".

But then, if the point is not to be controlled by other's, that means we don't need to be terribly worried about how others' interpret our response or lack thereof.

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quote:

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Originally posted by JoannaP:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
It has everything to do with entitlement. The men making comments assume they are entitled to a conversation, when they are not. Responding reinforces that.

I'd never respond anyway given that responding could get me raped and murdered

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Jade,

Do you have any evidence that responding briefly to an unwanted approach is more likely to get you raped and murdered than ignoring it? If your analysis is right, I would have thought that ignoring the bloke would be more likely to annoy him and thus increase the chances of violence.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fool on the hill:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:

quote:

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Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Ridiculous. I'm not policing anything.

---

You are making some very rude comments about your friend's behaviour that perpetuate the idea that women are public property and that rudeness is worse than women's safety. Fear is a TOTALLY VALID reason to ignore someone. It is not rude. It is hardwired into us. There is no 'should' about how your friend should feel, please let her have ownership over her own emotions and not try to change her so sh
e is more socially acceptable.

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You have absolutely no idea who my friend is, what she is like or how my relationship is with her.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
<snip> It has everything to do with entitlement. The men making comments assume they are entitled to a conversation, when they are not. Responding reinforces that.

I'd never respond anyway given that responding could get me raped and murdered

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Given your recent complaints about people who presume all other people (as opposed to ninety-x percent of them) to be heterosexual, you might like to cut out the blanket judgements on the states of men's minds.

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quote:

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Originally posted by rolyn:

Whilst it's tempting to hark back to a golden age where things weren't this way...

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Jade Constable:

quote:

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Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
<snip> It has everything to do with entitlement. The men making comments assume they are entitled to a conversation, when they are not. Responding reinforces that.

I'd never respond anyway given that responding could get me raped and murdered

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Given your recent complaints about people who presume all other people (as opposed to ninety-x percent of them) to be heterosexual, you might like to cut out the blanket judgements on the states of men's minds.

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You may need to brush up on your reading comprehension - I was talking about the men who harass women on the street, not all men ever. Heterosexism is rather different to knowing that rape culture means the men who harass women in the street view women as public property. Oh and by the way, only 10% of people are 100% heterosexual, 10% are 100% homosexual and the rest are somewhere else on the sexuality spectrum. Splitting the population into just hetero- and homosexuality is deeply inaccurate and overly binary.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

quote:

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Originally posted by rolyn:

Whilst it's tempting to hark back to a golden age where things weren't this way...

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When was that?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:

quote:

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Originally posted by JoannaP:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
It has everything to do with entitlement. The men making comments assume they are entitled to a conversation, when they are not. Responding reinforces that.

I'd never respond anyway given that responding could get me raped and murdered

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Jade,

Do you have any evidence that responding briefly to an unwanted approach is more likely to get you raped and murdered than ignoring it? If your analysis is right, I would have thought that ignoring the bloke would be more likely to annoy him and thus increase the chances of violence.

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Er, I know people who have been killed because they responded to someone who was harassing them. Is that evidence enough?

Some men want women to be a passive recipient of their abuse and don't like it when women answer back.

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quote:

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Er, I know people who have been killed because they responded to someone who was harassing them. Is that evidence enough?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jane R:
Jade:

quote:

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Er, I know people who have been killed because they responded to someone who was harassing them. Is that evidence enough?

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As JoannaP says, where's the evidence for this? And are you quite sure that they would not have been killed if they had refused to respond?

We all have to do whatever we are most comfortable with in such a situation (and personally I'd lean towards not responding until physically attacked) but this is getting close to blaming the victim for the crime. Some men see any response as encouragement to continue: others see non-response as a licence to escalate (hey, she didn't react - how far can I go with this?). You don't know which group the man harassing you falls into until you decide what to do, and by then it's too late to change your mind.

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
What is acceptable though? A smile - I find it hard not to if someone catches my eye like the shop assistant did today. Is that unwelcome - I'm no oil painting but does that make it any difference if I looked like the latest hunk of choice?

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A smile is a smile.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Exactly, you smile, someone smiles back.

Unless you are in East Palo Alto, in which case some gangbanger girl might snarl, "WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING AT?" But those girls are as much in the minority as "prowlers."
 

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Posted by the Pookah (# 9186) on :
 
Yes and unlike Fool on the Hill, the FBI (Cohen, 1999) reports that 1 in 3 women in the US can expect to be sexually assaulted in their lifetime. The course I took was given for free by the local police and the uni, desperate to lessen date rape and similar incidents. The 2 male policemen were wonderful and very caring, their biggest problem is the denial that women live in.
 

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Posted by Fool on the hill (# 9428) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by the Pookah:
Yes and unlike Fool on the Hill, the FBI (Cohen, 1999) reports that 1 in 3 women in the US can expect to be sexually assaulted in their lifetime. The course I took was given for free by the local police and the uni, desperate to lessen date rape and similar incidents. The 2 male policemen were wonderful and very caring, their biggest problem is the denial that women live in.

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You know virtually nothing about me.

Yes, I live in denial because I smile at people.

I'm glad I'm not you.


 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
I agree, that was unwarranted.
 

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Posted by Fool on the hill (# 9428) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Exactly, you smile, someone smiles back.

Unless you are in East Palo Alto, in which case some gangbanger girl might snarl, "WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING AT?" But those girls are as much in the minority as "prowlers."

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I was in the bathroom once, in a mall. Suburbs. Upscale mall. A girl was bawling her eyes out in the stall next to me. Bawling. I said, "Are you alright?" She yelled at me. She said how dare I talk to her, I didn't even know her, she said. She actually scared me. I said, "sorry" and left.

If it ever happens again, and I hear someone crying, I will ask them if they are alright.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
My point was just,"You are not going to run into a ot of people who will get angry at a smile."

I figure the same goes for people weeping in public getting mad at being asked if they are OK.
 

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Posted by Fool on the hill (# 9428) on :
 
Yes.

Once I was in an after hours bar, in a very seedy neighborhood, some guy came up to me and sat down opposite me. He didn't say anything. I said, "what the hell are you doing?" And he said, "I'm seeing what color your eyes are."

Creeper.

I married him.


 

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Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by the Pookah:
EM; the female shop assistant is required by her job to be friendly. So leave her alone unless she wants to initiate. Also for general behavior, being friendly in a small town is fine, in a big city not.

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quote:

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Originally posted by the Pookah:
Also for general behavior, being friendly in a small town is fine, in a big city not.

2. So that's the experts' answer. Am I the only woman here who has taken a self-defense course?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
My point was just,"You are not going to run into a ot of people who will get angry at a smile."

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quote:

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Originally posted by the Pookah:
Disengage early: Create distance, observe every direction, dismiss his attempt at conversation

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quote:

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the FBI (Cohen, 1999) reports that 1 in 3 women in the US can expect to be sexually assaulted in their lifetime

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
You elbowed someone for saying hello to you? Or were they being leery or abusive too?

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quote:

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Originally posted by the Pookah:
So that's the experts' answer. Am I the only woman here who has taken a self-defense course?

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I haven't done that particular self-defence course, but I have done self defence courses and I definately agree with you that more women should take them.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
I have taken the odd self-defense workshop, and I fenced for two years, which gave me a sense of asserting my- chi, i guess you could say.

I hate to say it, but this leg of the conversation is reminding me of Sandra Bullock's "SING" routine from Miss Congeniality..
 

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Posted by Lilac (# 17979) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
You elbowed someone for saying hello to you? Or were they being leery or abusive too?

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quote:

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Working in jobs with (mostly) women employees I heard stories at first hand of unwarranted attention that made me very aware of my own attitudes and behaviour.

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quote:

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Originally posted by rolyn:

quote:

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Working in jobs with (mostly) women employees I heard stories at first hand of unwarranted attention that made me very aware of my own attitudes and behaviour.

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Reading this thread, and ones like it, is having the same effect on me .

In 60s there was a song that went "Watching all the girls go by" . A perfectly legitimate activity then . It was encouraged , as was even bottom smacking in the old 'Carry on' films and similar of that ilk .

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

quote:

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Originally posted by rolyn:

quote:

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Working in jobs with (mostly) women employees I heard stories at first hand of unwarranted attention that made me very aware of my own attitudes and behaviour.

---

Reading this thread, and ones like it, is having the same effect on me .

In 60s there was a song that went "Watching all the girls go by" . A perfectly legitimate activity then . It was encouraged , as was even bottom smacking in the old 'Carry on' films and similar of that ilk .

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ExclamationMark, I can't stress enough how strng an impact your decision to internalize your female friend's stories can have.

It is kind of discouraging, however, that after reading story after story posted here of the kind of harassment Ship women have been subject to, there is still among some a tendency to place "watching girls go by" on the same level of intrusiveness as "smacking bottoms." Put more bluntly, we just heard a woman say she was offered stud services when she was pregnant, and we are still hearing hints of, "Can't a guy look?" Disappointing.


I'm reading back, and at least on this thread, except for Fool on the Hill's mild story about meeting her husband, I see nobody complaining about simply getting looked at.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Lol I wasn't complaining!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fool on the hill:

I personally don't want negative experiences to impact how I generally interact with people.

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quote:

---

The introduction of things like "Did you hit him because he smiled at you?" and "It used to be okay to look" feels like reductio ad absurdum.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Penny S:
But don't men on occasion regard the looking of other men as signifying something demanding a response stronger than "hello"? As in "You looking at me?" and "I didn't like the way he was looking at me, officer". Obviously this look is not usually a leer.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

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Originally posted by Fool on the hill:

I personally don't want negative experiences to impact how I generally interact with people.

---

A few days ago, I just finished taking pics and was collapsing my tripod when a very large, powerfully-built man approached. The spot was screened from view by foliage and there were few people about the general area even to be heard by.
He greeted me and we spoke about the view, the weather and some rather strange theories he espoused. I never had the feeling he was attempting to chat me up or threaten me in any manner. He simply wished to share the view and a bit of convo. I never felt other than relaxed and calm in his presence, felt no threat. Yet, after he left, I noticed I had never set down the tripod nor let it be in a position where it could not be employed.
So, yes, one should not be ruled by past experiences, but neither does it mean rescinding all caution.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Penny S:
Yes, and the confusion in the other cases could be between the challenge to dominance of a direct gaze, and the failure to acknowledge the dominant other by avoiding eye-contact. Presumably the appropriate animal behaviour is to look at the dominant male and then lower the gaze in submission. I could never do that sort of thing at school. Didn't understand the dominance alpha stuff at all.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Penny S:
Yes, and the confusion in the other cases could be between the challenge to dominance of a direct gaze, and the failure to acknowledge the dominant other by avoiding eye-contact. Presumably the appropriate animal behaviour is to look at the dominant male and then lower the gaze in submission. I could never do that sort of thing at school. Didn't understand the dominance alpha stuff at all.

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quote:

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Originally posted by rolyn:
I have no idea why we are now living in an age where certain males think it's OK to make lewd comments to a pregnant female on the the street . Something that can rightly termed as harassment.

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quote:

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Originally posted by JoannaP:
My life is much less restricted than it would have been 100+ years ago but the downside is that there are greater risks as well as the opportunities.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
.

(Let me hasten to add that in its original context of film criticism, it was an unexceptional observation IMHO. It has spread well beyond that now though.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
.

(Let me hasten to add that in its original context of film criticism, it was an unexceptional observation IMHO. It has spread well beyond that now though.

---

I'm not sure that it was entirely unexceptional in film theory. It was introduced to film studies as part of a specifically radical feminist study. At least someone must have had arguments with it.

Also AFAIK it was developed out of some previous ideas from psychoanalysis. (By Laura Mulvey, who works in the same college I do - though as I've never talked to her as far as I remember its not much of a namedrop!)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
JoannaP, ISTM the only the posh were more protected.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoannaP:

quote:

---

Originally posted by rolyn:
I have no idea why we are now living in an age where certain males think it's OK to make lewd comments to a pregnant female on the the street . Something that can rightly termed as harassment.

---

Somebody who knows more social history may correct me but it seems to me that in the past it might not have been that common for a woman, pregnant or not, to be in a position where she could be harassed by a strange man (strange in the sense of 'unknown to her' rather than 'weird') in the street without witnesses being present.

My life is much less restricted than it would have been 100+ years ago but the downside is that there are greater risks as well as the opportunities.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:
The usual self defence from unwanted attention appears to have been hat pins.

---

People who rhapsodize about the olden days of unfettered flirting would do well to read this carefully.

(My great-grandma totally had to hatpin someone. When Grandma told my sis and I this story first, she had gotten him in the hand, When we discussed it as young women, Grandma said, "Well, you were too young when I told you that story but I can tell you now-- it wasn't his hand.")

quote:

---

Originally posted by rolyn:
It's something that needs to be better understood , by both sexes, and discouraged . I gather there has been some progress in the stopping of cat-calling from scaffolding and building sites.

---

The stories I am hearing on this thread suggest otherwise.


The baseline for this discussion, though, needs to be that safety trumps self-esteem issues. Especially in light of the fact that "increased freedom creates increased risk." Women need to forget what everybody else thinks and access their personal instincts to asses a situation and respond to it. Politeness can come later.

The problem is what someone said above-- women are too reluctant to end uncomfortable conversations, and to agree to uncomfortable situations rather than hurt someone's feelings. The resistance to comments like "Don't be rude" or "You have to be polite" is that the kind of person who is inclined to draw a woman into a compromising situation is exactly the kind of person who will use that kind of rhetoric to get past their defenses.

Again, think of the kind of technique used by telemarketers. Would we encourage the average person to feel guilty about saying "No thanks" and hanging up on a telemarketer? And the stakes in that situation are much lower.
 

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I was advised to carry a hatpin, by my grandmother, I think. (Not the one followed over Dartford Heath.) The problem with that would have been that society has changed, and I did not wear hats over piled up hair in which to place said pins. Carrying a hat pin in those circumstances is similar to carrying a knife.
 

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Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :
 
It helps to look confident, as I think has been mentioned upthread. I tend to stride purposefully, and carry (when the weather's inclement) an umbrella in my hand, which I swing as I walk. It can be a handy weapon if need be.

I live in an area of London which a lot of people are afraid of, but actually I generally feel safe there because of the crowds, the shops open all hours and the traffic. I'd feel more wary in a quiet alley or out-of-town road with no street lights.

Though I still feel irritated by the occasion years ago when I was going to work (so around 8.45am), it was raining but as I was feeling cheerful I was humming Dixie to myself (for some odd reason) and I'd just go to 'D-I-X-I even know my - ' when a lout thrust his face under my umbrella and said 'Cheer up!' It put me in a bad mood all day...
 

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Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :
 
I confidently walked through Bethnal Green in the early hours of the morning for similar reasons. When I was harassed on streets it was usually empty suburban ones (though not even there in Cambridge ).
I happily chat to almost anyone on the streets, I say hello to strangers, converse with tramps etc. Over 20 years of nursing and a large stint as an Outpatients Sister has made me very good at handling people. I once broke up a domestic argument in the middle of a street in an unfamiliar town (I'm on 4 foot 11 inches and they were both way bigger than me). Being socially confident has not prevented me from being harassed. It has, however, helped me to respond very loudly.
 

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Posted by Lilac (# 17979) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pine Marten:
It helps to look confident, as I think has been mentioned upthread. I tend to stride purposefully, and carry (when the weather's inclement) an umbrella in my hand, which I swing as I walk. It can be a handy weapon if need be.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pine Marten:

Though I still feel irritated by the occasion years ago when I was going to work (so around 8.45am), it was raining but as I was feeling cheerful I was humming Dixie to myself (for some odd reason) and I'd just go to 'D-I-X-I even know my - ' when a lout thrust his face under my umbrella and said 'Cheer up!' It put me in a bad mood all day...

---

You were freaking humming "Dixie" and some dork told you to "cheer up"?

See, y'all? we just can't win.
 

---

Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :
 
I think living in Britain would be a reasonable cause for having an umbrella...

I remember having a security talk from the police when I was on a nursing course in London many years ago. They said that obviously it is illegal to carry a weapon so you need to have a good reason to be carrying something that you use as a weapon. They then said 'you're nurses, it would be quite reasonable for you to carry scissors'. They did also point out the risks involved if someone else got hold of the 'weapon' though.
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
I once borrowed an axe ( from my ex-wife's new husband) and walked home carrying it through the streets of Lewisham. A real axe, with a 3-foot handle and a big blade that weighed about a kilo. People did look at me funny. But no-one arrested me.
 

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Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lilac:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pine Marten:
It helps to look confident, as I think has been mentioned upthread. I tend to stride purposefully, and carry (when the weather's inclement) an umbrella in my hand, which I swing as I walk. It can be a handy weapon if need be.

---

An umbrella can be lethal. I heard a story about a guy fencing with the epee, which is a blunt form of duelling sword. His opponent's epee went through his decaying canvas jacket and into his stomach. Days later he died in hospital of peritonitis. An umbrella could do likewise, and you need to be sure that's what you need. You'd be asked questions about this later.

---

My umbrella is a largeish telescopic one so it hasn't got a pointy bit when folded up, but it could fetch someone a nasty wallop. Fortunately I haven't had to thump anyone with it yet, but I imagine it looks quite hefty swinging in my hand .

...and my apologies to shipmates across the pond - it's not Dixie is it, it's Al Jolson's Swanee ...it was still irritating though to be criticised when I was perfectly happy.
 

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Posted by Lilac (# 17979) on :
 
Self-defence tricks look too complicated. When the time comes, your assailant will probably have the advantage of surprise. Judo techniques will vanish from your mind. You won't have time to draw a weapon. I reckon you need general fitness primarily.
 

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Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :
 
Pine Marten:

quote:

---

...and my apologies to shipmates across the pond - it's not Dixie is it, it's Al Jolson's Swanee [Hot and Hormonal] ...it was still irritating though to be criticised when I was perfectly happy.

---

(Someone remembers "Swanee"? )

Too bad a snappy retort didn't come to mind like, "Yeah, you ought to try it." :sigh: But snappy retorts NEVER come to mind when we need them, do they?

As to self defense, the simpler and most painful and loud the better. When I was in high school our church youth group had a cop as a mentor. (His wife thought he needed regular contact with some "normal" teens as an antidote to the young thugs he dealt with on the job.) One evening he gave a program on self defense for us girls. He said if you can manage, get in three, painful blows to vulnerable places. The groin, of course. But my favorite was the heel of the hand hard to the nose. With luck you might break it and his eyes will immediately tear up. Scream like hell, And when he lets go run like hell, still screaming.

Might not work, but it would be worth a try if he doesn't have knife to your throat. And being in shape would be a plus.
 

---

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lilac:
Self-defence tricks look too complicated. When the time comes, your assailant will probably have the advantage of surprise. Judo techniques will vanish from your mind. You won't have time to draw a weapon. I reckon you need general fitness primarily.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gwai:
It depends on what is automatic. I train in martial arts relatively seriously, but I am not trained to automatically strike out when approached. Part of my training is also to notice who is around me before they get too close. Does that mean an accident could never happen, of course not, but that's true without martial arts training too.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

Would we encourage the average person to feel guilty about saying "No thanks" and hanging up on a telemarketer?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

So be nice to phone spanmmers. As soon as you realise they are trying to sell you something, cut them off. Or better still, just don't bother to answer calls from numbers you don't recognise. That way you don't waste their time at all - they aren't ringiing your number, the computer does that, you only get put on their queue when you pick up your phone or press "answer".

---

Ah, but some of us don't have phones that show caller ID, so we have to answer calls . But yes, my daughter never answers numbers she doesn't recognise on her mobile.

I try to be polite and repeat No thanks, bye-bye, but have often hung up with them still chuntering away...
 

---

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
Now this has veered into telemarketing, I'll just leave this here...
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

And can everyone see how at least some of what ken is saying might apply to not stringing along some guy who is "on the pull"?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

And can everyone see how at least some of what ken is saying might apply to not stringing along some guy who is "on the pull"?

---

... because it cracks me up that we all agree we have the right to distance ourselves from someone who is trying for our cash, but there is still this doubt about what a woman should do when she suspects someone is trying for her pussy.

Sorry to be blunt, but do you see what I mean?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by chive:
...an old man who was behind me in the queue put his arms round me and grabbed both my tits.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by chive:
How does being confident or acting confident prevent something like that happening?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gwai:
I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that people who tell her not to make him feel uncomfortable are implying that she's harassing him? Or that if he were female people would be saying different things? Because I don't really see why street behavior between people who don't know each other needs to match that of two colleagues who are not in private (thus safer) and work together.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

And can everyone see how at least some of what ken is saying might apply to not stringing along some guy who is "on the pull"?

---

... because it cracks me up that we all agree we have the right to distance ourselves from someone who is trying for our cash, but there is still this doubt about what a woman should do when she suspects someone is trying for her pussy.

Sorry to be blunt, but do you see what I mean?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
But are we still lumping together men who express appreciation for someone's looks with men who want to sexually assault us?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by chive:
...an old man who was behind me in the queue put his arms round me and grabbed both my tits.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lilac:
He must have been senile. But he had the advantage of surprise.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mdijon:
Are you trying to be offensive Lilac?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
But are we still lumping together men who express appreciation for someone's looks with men who want to sexually assault us?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mdijon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by chive:
...an old man who was behind me in the queue put his arms round me and grabbed both my tits.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lilac:
He must have been senile. But he had the advantage of surprise.

---

Are you trying to be offensive Lilac?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lilac:
Are you an elderly man who creeps up behind young women and grabs their boobs?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
But are we still lumping together men who express appreciation for someone's looks with men who want to sexually assault us?

---

"We" are not lumping anyone anywhere. "I" am saying that we should not touch a woman's response to her own instincts in matters like this, even if ours are different.

That's pretty much it, end of.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

And can everyone see how at least some of what ken is saying might apply to not stringing along some guy who is "on the pull"?

---

... because it cracks me up that we all agree we have the right to distance ourselves from someone who is trying for our cash, but there is still this doubt about what a woman should do when she suspects someone is trying for her pussy.

Sorry to be blunt, but do you see what I mean?

---

quote:

---

maybe you're lumping together women who do not feel threatened by some comments with women who don't have any personal sense of safety?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alicïa:
You seem to be expressing some real extremes here, Fool on the hill, I haven't seen anyone suggest that martial arts should be used on someone who makes what you would call an admiring comment.

In my own personal experience though, what starts as an admiring comment can very well lead to harassment and in my view because some men have a sense of entitlement that seems to have no limits. I don't think that body language necessarily always gives it away, sometimes but not always.

I would certainly not ever intend to tar all men with the same brush, nor would I expect all women to have had experiences of street harassment -- I am pleased for you that you have never had a bad experience of this kind but I think you are a bit dismissive of other womens real experiences here.

quote:

---

maybe you're lumping together women who do not feel threatened by some comments with women who don't have any personal sense of safety?

---

As you addressed this to Kelly I am sure she will also respond but it seems to me you are suggesting those of us who have had bad experiences with harassment have no sense of personal safety?

Tell me that isn't so.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Men being tarred by the same brush is exactly my problem here. Or one.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rolyn:
However I do get a feeling that some of the problem here is different people's creep-ometers being on different settings.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:

Last weekend, in NYC, in a bar, someone said to me, "you're the one", the message being quite clear that I was being admired. Should I have elbowed him? Hit him with my umbrella? Used martial arts?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:

Street comments, no matter how flattered one feels, are harassment. The power imbalance makes it more so, but it is regardless. Why? Much like why an unsolicited salesperson ringing you up is. It is an intrusion. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

and I am saying we need to respect that.

---

quote:

---

But I can't let other people's preference tell me what the best thing to do is in regards to my personal safety. End of.

---

quote:

---

When we hint that the process of assessing the situation is somehow wrong in and of itself(you are saying all people are ___!) we put people in danger-- so that really needs to be the priority.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alicïa:

quote:

---

maybe you're lumping together women who do not feel threatened by some comments with women who don't have any personal sense of safety?

---

As you addressed this to Kelly I am sure she will also respond...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:

quote:

---

But I can't let other people's preference tell me what the best thing to do is in regards to my personal safety. End of.

---

No one is. I'm taking issue with your comment about defending pussynattacks

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
... the problem with women overreacting to comments seems less prevailent than the problem of women being afraid to detach from situations that make them uncomfortable.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alicïa:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:

---

Evidently not. End of.

Whooaa!
End of?
?
Who made you arbiter of time & thread?

More correctly I meant it is her choice to respond. Not sure where you are going with this though.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Well, to be a lot fairer to her than she is being to me,she is using a phrase I threw out, in reference to an idea I was stating. But again, it is frustrating to take the time to try to respond to someone, and just have them decided I didn't. If there was something lacking in the response I did give, I wish she'd had just said that, rather than acting like I said nothing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:

quote:

---

But I can't let other people's preference tell me what the best thing to do is in regards to my personal safety. End of.

---

No one is. I'm taking issue with your comment about defending pussynattacks

---

It id incredibly frustrating to take the time to be specific when someone is going to reframe what you say into a blanket statement anyway. And add stuff you never said to that statement, to boot. I said When a woman gets the sense (specific, conditional) that someone is trying for her pussy.(plenty of people try for pussy without being attackers. You added that word. You. Pussy lovers everywhere certainly have the right to be offened by that word, but I didn't use it.)

What iam saying-again- is when we demand a woman apologize (in this case, meaning repeatedly justify)for acting on their qualms even in mild situation we weaken their ability to do so when things get intense. As was said above, the problem with women overreacting to comments seems less prevailent than the problem of women being afraid to detach from situations that make them uncomfortable.we totally need to reset that particular dial FIRST.

[umm, code]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
... the problem with women overreacting to comments seems less prevalent than the problem of women being afraid to detach from situations that make them uncomfortable.

---

Hear, hear!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
However, overreacting is a problem as well. And more important than overreacting is the tendency to paint men with a broad brush. Balance seems like a good idea.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Well, to be a lot fairer to her than she is being to me,she is using a phrase I threw out, in reference to an idea I was stating. But again, it is frustrating to take the time to try to respond to someone, and just have them decided I didn't. If there was something lacking in the response I did give, I wish she'd had just said that, rather than acting like I said nothing.

---

I apologize.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
However, overreacting is a problem as well. And more important than overreacting is the tendency to paint men with a broad brush. Balance seems like a good idea.

---

See, the fact that you are reading comments about women being careful about dodgy behavior as being about all men is weird to me, because I assume most men-- the majority even-- would not apply such comments to themselves. Because most men have reasonable boundaries. But I also assume most men want the women in their lives to keep themselves safe. I don' t think they would want women to place themselves in uncomfortable situations-- even if the only consequence is squicky conversation- and therefore I am bold to talk solely about a woman trusting her instincts, because I trust most men would agree with me.

Let me put it to you guys-- if you were out at a pub with a mixed crowd, and one of your female friends said something like,"That guy is giving me weird vibes, I'm avoiding him, would you say, 'Be reasonable-- he's probably perfectly nice"
or would you step off and leave her to her decision?

I know how most of the guys I know would respond.

And it there is some woman who is "overreacting" to some perfectly nice guy, why force her to inflict this on him? Her backing off is a win-win situation, in my book. Let her sort out what is bugging her before she really offends him.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
<snip> I think that there is an element of men bashing that exists in our society. And I feel there are shades of that in this thread. On the surface at least. Perhaps you don't see it because you are not a basher of men.

---

I must not be a basher of men either, because I don't see or feel it on this thread. On the contrary, I note your extraordinary sensitivity to such issues, and your insistence on focusing on what you believe to be inappropriate reactions by women. I don't get it.

Experiences and situations vary so widely that I believe it's impossible to judge another woman's reaction wrt her sense of safety. Obviously your measure varies from mine.

While I'm here I'd like to address the "lumping together" thing. For me it comes down to the problem of there being only one metric for a woman: the acceptability of her appearance from the point of view of the male gaze. Immature/unsophisticated men may only have this one metric: "Would I fuck her or not?" Comments related to appearance can undergird the idea that this is the only meaningful metric of a woman's life.

That doesn't mean one has to respond ungraciously to a contextually-appropriate compliment. But it does mean that the aggregate of such compliments devalues the other ways in which a woman may measure her own life and find it meaningful. If all comments are directed about appearance, it sends the message that other metrics (such as character) are meaningless. That's a problem.
 

---

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Well, it's a shame about the mistrust between the sexes; but unfortunately that's a result of solid, concrete bad behavior that a great many of us have experienced. We weren't born distrusting guys. If we distrust some of them (read: strangers on the street) now, we have damn good reason.
 

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Posted by Fool on the hill (# 9428) on :
 
And most of my friends are women in their 20's. Due to my work environment. I'm 48. That's my context.

It bothers me that at times, some of them, radiate fear. Radiate. Generally. Concerning the opposite sex. And it even affects their lives in ways I find not beneficial.

Re: meeting my husband. Haha, yes Kelly, I guess so. But I feel like something like that would freak out my friends. So a signal of safety would be very different for me than it would be for others. And I guess, I should confess, I'm a big flirt. And not much freaks me out. But that doesn't mean I don't have my safety in mind. At least now, at my age.

Leaf, the only reason I seem to be insisting is because I feel it's the missing element in the discussion. Or maybe its something I can't seem to be able to clearly communicate. And I guess the mistrust I see in my friends.

And yes, experiences and situations do vary widely. Impossible to evaluate unless its being done on a case by case basis. Which is why I tried to bring up my particular friend and one or two specific situations. But, yea, not going there again.

As for valuing appearances over more important things. Yes, you're right. Its a good point, certainly. However, compliments given casually are given for superficial reasons. But that doesn't mean that compliments can't be given for a persons job, or intellect or character. And it doesn't mean that people can't give superficial compliments.

My understanding is shifting somewhat here. You are (meaning you, in a somewhat general sense) making sense to me. But I would hope to also make a case for those that may be mired in mistrust between the sexes. As I said, my living context tells me that I would like to see some people relax a little.
 

---

Posted by Fool on the hill (# 9428) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Well, it's a shame about the mistrust between the sexes; but unfortunately that's a result of solid, concrete bad behavior that a great many of us have experienced. We weren't born distrusting guys. If we distrust some of them (read: strangers on the street) now, we have damn good reason.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
And most of my friends are women in their 20's. Due to my work environment. I'm 48. That's my context.

It bothers me that at times, some of them, radiate fear. Radiate. Generally. Concerning the opposite sex. And it even affects their lives in ways I find not beneficial.

---

quote:

---

almost entirely the fault of those that have behaved badly

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rolyn:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Men being tarred by the same brush is exactly my problem here. Or one.

---

There has , at times, been a hint of --'all men are potential rapists/street harassers' on this thread .

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rolyn:

I do get a feeling that some of the problem here is different people's creep-ometers being on different settings.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Earwig:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
And most of my friends are women in their 20's. Due to my work environment. I'm 48. That's my context.

It bothers me that at times, some of them, radiate fear. Radiate. Generally. Concerning the opposite sex. And it even affects their lives in ways I find not beneficial.

---

If they display fear, it's probably because they've been made to feel afraid. What do you think has made them feel afraid? Is it their responsibility to become less afraid, or society's reponsibility to tackle what made them afraid?

---

quote:

---

Is it their responsibility to become less afraid, or society's reponsibility to tackle what made them afraid?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alicïa:
I'm a bit confused Fool on the hill, because on the one hand you're saying that the younger women you know should radiate less fear, but on the other hand you seem to dismiss learning a martial art & self defence as something of a negative (your comment on "should I have used martial arts")

(when in fact it usually has the effect of increasing women's confidence and in doing so de-enabling fear)

Which is it?

Also:

quote:

---

almost entirely the fault of those that have behaved badly

---

can you unpack this please?

Seems a little close to victim blaming to me, unless I am being hypersensitive?

---

quote:

---

Also:

quote:

---

almost entirely the fault of those that have behaved badly

---

can you unpack this please?

Seems a little close to victim blaming to me, unless I am being hypersensitive?

---

I typed and back spaced several times that word "almost". I let it remain because we always have a responsibility to ourselves if we find that fear is dominating our lives in some way, shape or form.

I think this whole discussion is hypersensitive. Its a hypersensitive topic.
 

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Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :
 
When a woman says that she avoided a man becuase he made her uncomfortable, she's not saying anything about the man. She's saying something about her feelings. Does that mean the man now has to prove he's not a creep? NO! He should go on about his non-creepy business. So I guess I don't see how men are being asked either directly or by implicature to prove themselves innocent.
 

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Posted by Fool on the hill (# 9428) on :
 
Of course she's saying something about the man! She wouldn't be feeling uncomfortable if he wasn't behaving a certain way that she finds disconcerting. I don't even know why you're bringing that up. It doesn't seem at all relevant to anything I've said.

In this thread. In this almost 300 post thread, you haven't seen anything that seems like men need to qualify their intentions if responding? Ok. Because I saw a man feel the need to defend a smile for crying out loud.
 

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Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :
 
I didn't say men never feel the need to. Men and women both defend themselves when I don't think they should need to. I am saying that if I say that X is creeping me out, I would not assume that proved X a creepster and wouldn't expect anyone else to either. If I said that in real life, probably either I want my listener to please not leave me alone with X or I'm warning them to be careful around X. If someone ignored me when I meant #1, I'd consider them a bad friend, but if they ignored me when I meant #2, I'd consider it their right. In fact, at least one person dear to me has. Turned out I was totally right about him, but she's a healthy happy woman, so I guess she's doing just fine too.

And yes a woman (or man for that matter) who says that some guy is making them uncomfortable has identified something about the guy's behavior that creeps the speaker out. That doesn't mean it is the "creepy" guy's fault. For example, I think eye contact or lack there of has been brought up on this thread as a potentially creepy behavior depending on cultures. Someone who's accidentally creeping people out by making more eye contact than the dominant culture expects might be wisest to change their behavior, but they certainly aren't morally wrong, etc.
 

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Posted by Fool on the hill (# 9428) on :
 
And.......I never said anything to the contrary.


 

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Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :
 
If it helps, I didn't post that to argue with you particularly, FotH. I posted it because it seemed relevant to the thread, and I was clarifying my view on the topic. If I am irrelevant, well it won't be the first time!
 

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Posted by Fool on the hill (# 9428) on :
 

 

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Posted by JoannaP (# 4493) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
And most of my friends are women in their 20's. Due to my work environment. I'm 48. That's my context.

It bothers me that at times, some of them, radiate fear. Radiate. Generally. Concerning the opposite sex. And it even affects their lives in ways I find not beneficial.

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quote:

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Originally posted by JoannaP:

quote:

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Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
And most of my friends are women in their 20's. Due to my work environment. I'm 48. That's my context.

It bothers me that at times, some of them, radiate fear. Radiate. Generally. Concerning the opposite sex. And it even affects their lives in ways I find not beneficial.

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Fool on the hill,

Can you give an indication of what proportion of this fear is due to actual experience and how much is reacting to stories in the media? In this country, surveys show that fear of crime is rising while crime itself is falling and some people do seem to let the former restrict their lives unnecessarily, but then we all assess risk differently.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Firenze:
Is it then age related? You, being that much older, have more life experience which has been on the whole positive, and therefore your risk assessment is calibrated accordingly.

Might they not, by the time they are your age, be equally relaxed? As they say - If youth knew; if age could. Some things you can only arrive at by experience.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
You just said a woman deciding not to return a smile is implying something about the man himself. That is an unnecessary and unhelpful thing to say. Maybe he just reminds her of a nasty schoolteacher she used to have. Again, why force her to inflict that vibe of hers on him? It serves no one.

And I want to express frustration (again) that I made the effort to clarify that I assumed most men have healthy boundaries, but you seem to not return the favor and consider that most women have healthy boundaries, and when their creep-o-meter goes off it is for good reason.

You notice odd behavior among your workmates- fine. But your applying their behavior to blanket comments about women honing their instincts is just as bad as Paglia (
Or whoever) deciding all men ad potential rapists. Especially in light of some of the hair-raising stories some of the women on this theard have told.

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quote:

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You just said a woman deciding not to return a smile is implying something about the man himself.

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quote:

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why force her to inflict that vibe of hers on him?

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quote:

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Paglia (Or whoever) deciding all men ad potential rapists.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fool on the hill:


Most men are not potential rapists or even harassers.

Most women have healthy boundaries.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Alicïa:

quote:

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Originally posted by rolyn:

quote:

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Originally posted by Fool on the hill:
Men being tarred by the same brush is exactly my problem here. Or one.

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There has , at times, been a hint of --'all men are potential rapists/street harassers' on this thread .

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I haven't seen any of that can you please point out a specific example?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

quote:

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Originally posted by Fool on the hill:

Most men are not potential rapists or even harassers.

Most women have healthy boundaries.

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Good enough for me.

Let me try to explain what I meant by "vibe" (this would be the third try.) If a woman has made some knee- jerk decision that some guy a creep,what does serve anyone-- including him-- to plant the idea in her head that she needs to override that and engage with him? It will probably turn out badly for him! Why does he need suffer the faked politeness of someone who isn't into him?

Again, the guys I know have too much pride and dignity to settle for such a situation.

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quote:

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Originally posted by rolyn:

Seeing as how the debate has moved into an area which suggests many females are now generally fearful of men, then that in itself might imply that all men are seen as a potential threat in certain circumstances .

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quote:

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Originally posted by rolyn:
Therefore the problem of the street harassment of women ,(depending on how real it actually is), could be evidence of polarization, whereby introvert and extrovert is becoming more pronounced in the male behaviour .
Just a thought.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Fool on the hill:

But I have told friends that if they want to meet someone appropriate, they might want to consider relaxing a little and not being so defensive. What do you know? They even agreed.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

quote:

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Originally posted by rolyn:

Seeing as how the debate has moved into an area which suggests many females are now generally fearful of men, then that in itself might imply that all men are seen as a potential threat in certain circumstances .

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Wow.

Because the last several posts say the exact opposite.

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Many, some, most....relative terms

[guys, guys... please deal with your UBB code]

[ 04. February 2014, 05:00: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
[Sorry, Euty-- freaking Ipad. ]
 

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Posted by Lilac (# 17979) on :
 
I've just been downloading PDFs from the Library Genesis Project (google for "libgen"). They have a good selection of fitness books. Also martial arts, though obviously these require more dedication to learn. The one on "Krav Maga for women" is a typical self-defence book, better than nothing...
 

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Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

You notice odd behavior among your workmates- fine. But your applying their behavior to blanket comments about women honing their instincts is just as bad as Paglia (
Or whoever) deciding all men ad potential rapists.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
See, to me, victory in this matter would be if you don't have to become invisible to stop being a victim of harassment.

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I totally agree Kelly. It doesn't solve anything, merely avoids the problem.

One thing I remember being fascinated by was that I hurt my wrist a couple of times and had my arm in a sling for a few days and that increased the harassment. Not blokes talking to me in the street or showing concern, but sexual comments. I decided to ditch the sling when I was out and about.

Huia
 

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Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
Predators target the wounded.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
beyond fucked up.
 

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Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Jane R:
Predators target the wounded.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I think that some guys are just inclined to harass women, and they make up a variety of excuses to do so.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

"Walking victim" and "Overconfident" being two of them.

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Not my meaning, but I was less than complete in my statement.
I feel self-defense classes are terrific. I also think projecting strength is generally a good thing as well. However, thinking either of these makes one attack-proof is not good.
Overconfidence can lead to not paying proper mind to one's surroundings.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
This is true.
 

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Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :
 
I have never taken self defence classes but one night I threw a drunk who was harassing a friend and I to the ground. Probably the main reason he lost his balance was because he was so drunk, but at least it stopped him from hurting Annie who had just found out she was pregnant.

Huia
 

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Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 
At 8 years old, I threw and pinned an 11 year old boy. This was as far as my self-defense training had taken me, so there I lay, holding down a boy 8 stone bigger than I with absolutely no idea what to do with him after.
Fortunately his brother fetched their mum and I was safe.
So knowledge, practice and a complete plan of action....
 

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Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :
 
Fortunately he was too drunk to get up, but did splutter "Dykes, lesbians" in our wake. Obviously the only women who spurned the advances of such an attractive catch must be gay

Huia
 

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