quote:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Gamaliel

Hmmm. I'm a bit too postmodern to be entirely at home with grand value judgments. I think value depends to a large extent on what the reader or listener is looking for.

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I'm pretty postmodern when it comes to these things too.

Hence my comments about poetry-slams and so on alongside more 'literary' poetry in the conventional sense.

The market for poetry is certainly more limited than it is for novels. I'm not sure, though, whether we can compare approaches to 'difficult' poetry and 'difficult' novels, though ...

From what poets and other authors have told me in recent years, the gap is narrowing and the run-lengths and life-expectancy/shelf-life for most 'literary' novels is becoming closer to what it always has been for contemporary poetry.

I've heard that some 'literary' novelists reckon not to sell a great many more copies than they do at the book launch ... something poets have long since accepted as the norm.

There are some interesting things going on, though, in terms of independent publishers and smaller presses - although that whole scene is in a state of flux. The formerly despised self-publishing route is also becoming more respectable.

But, no, I don't disagree with the broad thrust of what you are saying here.

To use an example I've already cited. I would contend that Mudfrog's Kings Singers rendition of contemporary SA songs is perfectly valid, competent and of a reasonable standard and quality.

What I wouldn't say was that it achieved the 'stunning' standards he claims for it.

But then, I'd say that of contemporary Christian music in general.

It depends on where you draw the lines and what you use as a benchmark. Given the choice between Mudfrog's Kings Singers SA songs album and a Hillsong album I know which one I'd choose ...

Again, this isn't restricted to popular evangelicalism. Take 'The Priests' - that trio of Irish Catholic priest songsters who achieved brief fame and album sales a few years ago.

The material they performed was largely 'classical' but the style, packaging and delivery was highly populist. There's nothing wrong with that - there's a place for it ... but no-one is claiming that it's the highest form of art there is.
 

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Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :
 
Please define 'evangelical'.

And also please define 'poetry'.

Is there an objective standard by which we can judge whether a poem is good or not? And if there is, who has established that standard and why?
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
There's probably no more of an objective standard for judging poetry as there is for judging who is or who isn't an evangelical ...

The point I'm getting at derives from a comment that intrigued me in Andrew Walker's 'Restoring The Kingdom' - his insightful 1980s study of the restorationist 'new church' movement in the UK.

As a sociologist, Walker noted that the new churches tended to attract more 'directive' thinkers than 'discursive' ones - consequently, there were more technicians, engineers, nurses and others in 'get-things-done' type jobs than there were more reflective 'poetic' or 'philosophical' types.

I think this held water and still does.

That doesn't mean that there aren't 'directive' thinkers, scientists, medics etc - who don't appreciate or write poetry ... there's a growing interest in the use of poetry in therapy, for instance ... and I know some medics who write very good poetry.

As for defining 'evangelicalism' and defining 'poetry' and identifying objective standards for assessing each ... I could give plenty of links and examples but I'm making a fairly general point here. Because there are always exceptions to any rule.

I'm fairly post-modern on these issues, like SvitlanaV2 and would agree with her that the needs of the reader/user are what determines the value to a great extent.

Consequently, I would suggest, Mudfrog finds the contemporary SA hymn lyrics 'stunningly poetic' because they happen to accord with his world-view and spirituality.

They don't accord quite so closely with mine, consequently, I'm predisposed to find them less 'stunning' than he does.

I hasten to add that I don't think they are 'bad' as hymn lyrics go and they are a lot better than other examples of the genre we could cite ... but that would be to stray into Dead Horses territory ...

My own view is that poetry doesn't have to inaccessible or 'difficult' - indeed, Modernism hasn't done us any great favours in that respect. There were plenty of popular but highly skilled poets around during the early part of the 20th century, for instance - who deserve more credit than they've subsequently received.

The First World War and Modernism changed everything.

Be all that as it may, and whatever criteria we use, can we really say that the following is 'stunningly poetic'?

http://www.chandos.net/pdf/SPS%20244.pdf

Competent as song lyrics, yes, but rather sentimental, full of fairly arch poetic contractions - 'ev'ry ... T'ward ... Calv'ry ... wand'ring ... pluck'd ... heav'n ... e'en ...'

And cod archaisms such as 'noontide.'

If I sent poems off to poetry magazines peppered with archaisms and contractions (and yes, I can see they're there to fit the rhythm but even so) then I'd get even more rejection slips than I get now ...

It all depends, of course.

C S Lewis's poetry is almost universally regarded as execrable. His prose is universally admired.

The issue, though, isn't so much whether evangelical poetry is good, bad or indifferent as to whether more discursive or 'poetic' and 'philosophical' minds and temperaments can thrive as well as those of a more 'directive' and activist bent ... which is, I submit, the prevailing paradigm within those settings.

It won't be the only paradigm but it does strike the dominant note.

At it's best, there is a kind of demotic language and expression within evangelicalism that has a broad appeal - and not necessarily at the expense of sense or a dumbing down ...

But more activist forms of belief do tend to lend themselves to a more sloganeering style.

That's all I'm saying.
 

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Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :
 
John Piper, the arch-calvinista, writes poetry. And lots of it.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Well, you live and learn ...

I hadn't realised Piper wrote poetry.

Having read some now, I wished he didn't ...


 

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Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
Does evangelicalism lend itself particularly well to creativity? I tend to find either an anti-intellectual attitude (sometimes quite subtle), or a more Reformed intellectual attitude that is more rigid and less inclined to creativity. I think being down to earth is prized more than anything out of the ordinary.
 

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Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
Poetry and song-writing aren't the same thing. A lot of competent poetry doesn't sing well. Most song lyrics, whether secular or religious, are pretty dire on the printed page - even songs that work well as songs. You only need to read a few CD covers to realise how this is almost universal. So I don't think it's fair, or even a reasonable test, to ask whether either hymns or choruses are decent poetry or not. It's the wrong criterion.

There are a few hymns and choruses that work well as such, and are both verbally well written and inspiring, even though they might be fairly weak as poetry. There are all too many hymns and choruses that aren't very good even as hymns or choruses. Most of us carry round with us a mental list of ones we feel particularly strongly about.
 

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Posted by Leprechaun (# 5408) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Well, you live and learn ...

I hadn't realised Piper wrote poetry.

Having read some now, I wished he didn't ...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Does evangelicalism lend itself particularly well to creativity? I tend to find either an anti-intellectual attitude (sometimes quite subtle), or a more Reformed intellectual attitude that is more rigid and less inclined to creativity. I think being down to earth is prized more than anything out of the ordinary.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
People seem to be getting touchy and defensive when I suggest that evangelicalism and evangelical culture isn't necessarily conducive for those with a more 'poetic' or 'philosophical' bent.
...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:
It would be my contention that 'great' art (as opposed to good, or merely competent art) can never arise out of an orthodox world view, whatever that world view is. Great art is about challenge, not conformity. Great art is about new, not old. Great art is about discomfort, not comfort.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
... @Enoch - yes, you're right about the difference between song lyrics and poetry. Read Bob Dylan's lyrics on the page and you wonder what the fuss is all about ...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Garasu:

quote:

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:
It would be my contention that 'great' art (as opposed to good, or merely competent art) can never arise out of an orthodox world view, whatever that world view is. Great art is about challenge, not conformity. Great art is about new, not old. Great art is about discomfort, not comfort.

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While emotionally I'm inclined to agree, I think I need more discussion of particulars before I accept that.

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It's very much about an emotional response...

Yes, it's a bit of sweeping statement, and I can't honestly say I've ever produced any 'great' art (though I'm particularly satisfied with the next book). But I know of the things that have moved me most, from music through sculpture and painting to fiction, the art has been in some way, controversial - and not in a silly, desire-to-shock sort of way, but disturbing, transcendent, spiritual, earthy. Not just counter-cultural, but supra-cultural.
 

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Posted by Garasu (# 17152) on :
 
OK. So, if we take the case of Mozart's Requiem... Is it transgressive of orthodoxy? Or is it not great art? And, in either case, how?
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
I'm not very familiar with Evangelical poetry, a bit more with Evangelical music (you can't avoid hearing that in Brazil )

What it is to me is that Evangelicalism by its very definition has an urge to spread a clear message. This doesn't go together well with my personal preference for more murky, ambiguous art.
 

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Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Garasu:
OK. So, if we take the case of Mozart's Requiem... Is it transgressive of orthodoxy? Or is it not great art? And, in either case, how?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:

I would contend that Mudfrog's Kings Singers rendition of contemporary SA songs is perfectly valid, competent and of a reasonable standard and quality.

What I wouldn't say was that it achieved the 'stunning' standards he claims for it.

But then, I'd say that of contemporary Christian music in general.

It depends on where you draw the lines and what you use as a benchmark. Given the choice between Mudfrog's Kings Singers SA songs album and a Hillsong album I know which one I'd choose ...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Well, you live and learn ...

I hadn't realised Piper wrote poetry.

Having read some now, I wished he didn't ...

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quote:

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Originally posted by no prophet:
As Leonard Cohen said (my transcription):

"Poetry comes from a place that no-one commands and no-one conquers. If I knew where the good songs come from, I'd go there more often." (speech to Principe of Asturias, Oct 2011)

In my opinion, the confidence of where the poetry of life and death comes from,
that evangelicals have in their certainty, means that they are persuaded that they have answers, or rather believe they have the answers. This cannot be. Because it is not possible. And if it is possible, then it offends rationality and feelings both. Because our nature, our freewill - God requires our lack of certainty. Without lack of certainty, there is no faith, only dogma.
Poetry comes from somewhere else, other than this certainty.

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I would agree-- and very much like-- your definition of poetry. I would very much disagree (no surprise) with your depiction of evangelical "certainty"-- although I recognize it. There is certainly a strain of evangelicalism that's all about "power evangelism" and "power preaching" and "alpha leadership" that has that brazen unreflective certainty about it ( a bit of whistling in the dark, perhaps). But again, there are more poetic thoughtful writers-- people like Parker Palmer and Fredrick Buechner (would they consider themselves evangelical? I don't know. But they are much beloved in evangelical circles), as well as more obvious (but less poetic) evangelical writers like Rob Bell and Brian McLaren where their very appeal is the lack of certainty and the embrace of doubt and mystery.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Ok ... backing up a bit.

May I remind you all of the key points I'm trying to raise ... which isn't about how good, bad or indifferent evangelical art is ... and goodness knows, there's good, bad and indifferent art, music, poetry, fiction etc in all the Christian traditions ...

But rather about how it might be relatively awkward/difficult for those with a more 'poetic' or 'philosophical' bent - in the broad sense of those terms to fit into settings where certainty and sloganeering appears to be the order of the day.

And yes, you can see this in other traditions too. Several times now I've mentioned the example of the late, lamented John Tavener within Orthodoxy where he went from poster-boy to pariah as far as many of the Orthodox were concerned.

So I'm not necessarily singling evangelicalism out. I've made this clear several times.

Evangelicalism is the tradition I know best so I have to use it as an example.

I would agree with Cliffdweller that there can be a sense of mystery and the numinous within evangelical settings ... increasingly so, it seems to me ...

But I don't want to get drawn into Dead Horse discussions about Crappy Choruses and so on. I am fairly familiar with the mainstream worship-song fare within contemporary evangelicalism and it ain't all bad. I've never said it was.

I've also acknowledged that what I'm saying is broad-brush and yes, perhaps stereotypical in Og the Threadkiller's terms.

I've also said that there's a lot of creativity in evidence in evangelical and charismatic evangelical circles ... even though much of the mime, the dramatic sketches and the jokes may not be to my taste. I've seen some engaging stuff though ... and a lot of talent.

I also accept SvitlanaV2's point about subjectivity and I'd already acknowledged that. I'd acknowledged that my reactions to what Mudfrog regards as 'stunningly poetic' were bound to be more subdued than his for reasons other than whatever literary merit these lyrics might intrinsically possess.

I sometimes wonder whether some of you read what I write or what you think I'm writing ...



But all that said, by any generally accepted criteria - and I'm not talking high-falutin', high-brow lit crit criteria here - can we really, honestly say that those SA lyrics constitute great art of any kind?

I would say not. They are trite, conventional and sentimental. They are not particularly bad examples, though, there are much worse.

But 'stunningly poetic'?

'Sufficient for purpose', might be a more realistic assessment.
 

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Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Garasu:
So it's disquieting. But in what way does it not arise out of an orthodox world view?

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quote:

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On the assumption that an art form more directly dependent on verbal formulation may be easier to discuss: Sophocles' Antigone. Transgressive? Orthodox? I'm inclined to say both...

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quote:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I would agree-- and very much like-- your definition of poetry. I would very much disagree (no surprise) with your depiction of evangelical "certainty"-- although I recognize it. There is certainly a strain of evangelicalism that's all about "power evangelism" and "power preaching" and "alpha leadership" that has that brazen unreflective certainty about it ( a bit of whistling in the dark, perhaps). But again, there are more poetic thoughtful writers-- people like Parker Palmer and Fredrick Buechner (would they consider themselves evangelical? I don't know. But they are much beloved in evangelical circles), as well as more obvious (but less poetic) evangelical writers like Rob Bell and Brian McLaren where their very appeal is the lack of certainty and the embrace of doubt and mystery.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:

I sometimes wonder whether some of you read what I write or what you think I'm writing ...

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quote:

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May I remind you all of the key points I'm trying to raise [...] about how it might be relatively awkward/difficult for those with a more 'poetic' or 'philosophical' bent - in the broad sense of those terms to fit into settings where certainty and sloganeering appears to be the order of the day.

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quote:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

OTOH, unless evangelicalism is always lived in stasis it must encompass the idea of the spiritual life as a journey, which has to allow for the fact that even evangelicals have challenging times with faith, with their churches and with living. Paul couldn't pray away the thorn in his side, yet he was arguably the prototype of an evangelical! This could provide fruit for reflection.

On a sociological level I think the main issue is that historically evangelicals have tended to come from the lower strata of society, so they haven't had access to the kind of refined education that creates poets and philosophers. This may be changing, but nowadays there's hardly a wide readership in the UK for poetry and fiction that explores evangelicalism. I suspect that most contemporary writers who are evangelical Christians keep their literary identity more or less separate from their religious identity for professional reasons.

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spot on.


 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I agree, SvitlanaV2.

The prevailing academic/literary paradigm is, of course, geared towards uncertainty and ambiguity - so someone with a pretty fixed world-view - be it evangelical Protestant, conservatively Catholic or Orthodox - isn't going to gain a great deal of traction with the liberal arts establishment.

I accept that.

I also accept your comments about my posting style and tendencies and am aware of the tensions. But I can only speak as I find, as all the other posters here can and do ...

So there's a tension all ways round. And tension does tend to create good art ... so that's maybe not a bad thing ...


 

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Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:
It would be my contention that 'great' art (as opposed to good, or merely competent art) can never arise out of an orthodox world view, whatever that world view is. Great art is about challenge, not conformity. Great art is about new, not old. Great art is about discomfort, not comfort.

So while great art can refer to and be about a particular orthodoxy, it will always step outside that orthodoxy at some point, be critical of that orthodoxy and be open to criticism from that orthodoxy.

It's not a thing that is peculiar to evangelicalism (though it's something I've encountered, and in turn, spoken out against), but is common to any dominant cultural expression. Writers and artists are poorly served by the church, but the feeling is, for the most part, entirely mutual. I serve the church poorly through my art, because my art is unorthodox and cannot be embraced wholeheartedly by the church.

I'm old enough now not to be worried about that, and I ought to remember more often to tell the youngsters not to be so concerned by it either.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:
It would be my contention that 'great' art (as opposed to good, or merely competent art) can never arise out of an orthodox world view, whatever that world view is. Great art is about challenge, not conformity. Great art is about new, not old. Great art is about discomfort, not comfort.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:
]I don't know - from a traditional Catholic view, aren't we supposed to reach the end with assurance that we'll be welcomed into heaven? The Requiem fills me with dread that we won't, and there is naught but darkness.

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I thought assurance was a Protestant doctrine? Calvinists on these boards are always telling the rest of us that without predestination we don't have assurance. The Dies Irae isn't Mozart's invention, but a traditional part of the Catholic funeral mass. The Catholic attitude I believe is not assurance but hope.
 

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Posted by Sola gratia (# 14065) on :
 
This is an interesting discussion point. I'd started to wonder about this recently, and it's helped crystallize my thoughts a little.

What Jade Constable and Gamaliel have said about there being a tendency for evangelicals either steer away from poetry, the poetic and other creative, subjective areas, e.g. much art, unless with a 'Gospel message' or similar moral point', chimes with my experience and observations.

I studied at a university in an English city dominated ecclesiastically by a particular Con Evo church, whose attendees therefore also dominated the Christian Union of which I was briefly part - so I think we can say this is an evangelical scene alright.

I remember hearing that one art student friend was going on to work for UCCF, helping the Christian Unions, and it occurred to me that that was quite unusual, not just being a non-scientist/Bsc student (most CU members were probably doing something medical or otherwise scientific or non-liberal arty, and there were and are many, many Christian medical workers at the Con Evo church) but in having a clearly non-'rational' discipline whilst working for an evangelical organization with an emphasis on apologetics and logic and things. It's probably impossible to say which informs which, but it seems to me there was a definite pattern of scientist/'rational' subject & evangelical worldview which didn't really know what to do with the uncertainty and challenging that art opens the door to in a different way to science. Most creativity in that scene (and there was some creativity), I would say, was more, as mentioned already by other posters including Gamaliel with this cover photo anecdote, in the line of 'we use this beauty/art for an evangelistic/worship purpose, because it provides a lead in to a question we want to discuss/raise with someone, not for itself per se'. And if anything artistic was used in meetings/services, it would tend to be something literary from e.g. CS Lewis (so, prose then), or a quote, maybe an artistic rendering of a parable or Jesus, or of course music. Poetry? Not to my memory. And it was never something discussed.

I realize this could well be rather influenced by my university's specialism in medicine and sciences determining the type of people who would be studying there and therefore who was worshipping/attending CU, but there were many other degree courses too, yet most Christian students in CU were on the science/engineering etc. side of things, rather than the arts. There were a handful of English Lit or social scientists, I think, but artists or musicians were very much in the minority. So I came away with an impression that poetry and creativity were not valued quite so much as rationality and scientific, logical things.

I don't know how much this was my particular scene in that particular very scientifically-dominated academic arena and how much that might be seen as a (British) conservative evangelical tendency generally, I suppose the two can't be easily separated, but that's my experience anyway.

I wonder if this didn't threaten to create a bit of an inferiority complex in those with a more 'poetic' or philosophical bent, in the words of the OP, in this evangelical culture. For myself,
it wasn't until I left university and abandoned the mainly evangelical bubble I'd started out in there that I felt suddenly able to(re)explore my own interest in reading and writing poetry (at the same time as questioning and starting to abandon some of my previous evangelical beliefs, incidentally). I have a feeling a younger me in evangelical culture unconsciously felt that my poetic nature was a bit foolish and overemotional , and that I wasn't allowed to consider poetry, art or similar creative expressions 'worthy' pursuits unless somehow directly evangelistic, worship-orientated (e.g. beautiful landscapes, hymns of praise, meditations on passages from the Bible). I also have a feeling that even if I had realised I could write poetry then, I wouldn't have shown any of my evangelical friends, as I don't think they'd have been interested or have known what to do with it! I think that says something.

(On the other hand, the Charismatic church I briefly attended would probably have lapped it up! It was a wacky place, though, with little discernment, and would have read out all sorts of strange things, so I'm not sure that extreme is great either... but I can see how it might have been the place which attracted creative types more than CU.)

So basically, I'd probably agree with the assertion in the OP in general.
 

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Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by no prophet:

quote:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
I would agree-- and very much like-- your definition of poetry. I would very much disagree (no surprise) with your depiction of evangelical "certainty"-- although I recognize it. There is certainly a strain of evangelicalism that's all about "power evangelism" and "power preaching" and "alpha leadership" that has that brazen unreflective certainty about it ( a bit of whistling in the dark, perhaps). But again, there are more poetic thoughtful writers-- people like Parker Palmer and Fredrick Buechner (would they consider themselves evangelical? I don't know. But they are much beloved in evangelical circles), as well as more obvious (but less poetic) evangelical writers like Rob Bell and Brian McLaren where their very appeal is the lack of certainty and the embrace of doubt and mystery.

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It may be, and I think it is, that evangelical practice and theory differ in North America and Europe. I was exposed to the very certain American version in the 1970s, in Alberta, that most American of our provinces. And have seen and avoided Alpha recruitement. So I expect you are right. And I may be too narrow in my avoidant definition.

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quote:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

Among the many churches I've come across the Baptist ones in particular seem to have gone in for this kind of thing. Only yesterday I discovered that my local Baptist church is a listed building. I know that listing isn't just about aesthetics, but that's usually one aspect, isn't it?

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quote:

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As for writing, I do sense that a few Christians have been ever so slightly underwhelmed when I've told them that my thesis is on contemporary literature

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quote:

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Originally posted by chris stiles:

quote:

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As for writing, I do sense that a few Christians have been ever so slightly underwhelmed when I've told them that my thesis is on contemporary literature

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Contemporary literature tends to be a minority pursuit anyway - even outside Christianity - I suspect you'd have the same response in similarly placed non-Christian groups. [/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:


I'd say that the Baptists were, on the whole, less likely to go in for architectural show than the Congregationalists and the Wesleyan Methodists ... the Primitive Methodists couldn't afford to ... but where there were well-heeled Baptist congregations it did happen.

It all puts me in mind of a popular verse from my native South Wales -

The Trewllyn* Methodists have built a church,
The front looks like an abbey,
And thinking they can fool the Lord,
They've left the back part shabby.

* I can't remember the name of the place, but I'll look it up later.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
To an extent. But I'd agree with SvitlanaV2, many Christians remain uncomfortable with the study of literature or with literary or artistic activity that doesn't directly connect in some way with rather utilitarian concerns.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I think this whole thread - and Gamaliel's approach to this subject - smacks so very much of light night BBC 2 literature review programmes. It's pretentious, elitist, snobbish, and very condescending to those who like things for what they are and are not impressed with people who know a lot about stuff that the majority couldn't give two hoots about.

At one point Gamaliel derides evangelical poetry as doggerel but then when I point him to some poetry that is clearly NOT doggerel he questions my personal use of the word 'stunning' not realising that it is used in the context of unexpected (by him at any rate) and surprisingly not doggerel.

For the benefit of Shipmates THIS is the link to the CD artowrk containing the words - you need to scroll down to the 4th panel and then enlarge the image.

Not doggerel, and IMHO, beautiful language which, if it had an obscure author's name at the bottom - one known only to academics - I daresay you'd be agreeing with me.

My point in saying this is that Catherine Baird the poet, an evangelical, is also regarded as a kind of mystic in SA literary circles and I believe these words point to that.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I think this whole thread - and Gamaliel's approach to this subject - smacks so very much of light night BBC 2 literature review programmes. It's pretentious, elitist, snobbish, and very condescending to those who like things for what they are and are not impressed with people who know a lot about stuff that the majority couldn't give two hoots about.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I think this whole thread - and Gamaliel's approach to this subject - smacks so very much of light night BBC 2 literature review programmes. It's pretentious, elitist, snobbish, and very condescending to those who like things for what they are and are not impressed with people who know a lot about stuff that the majority couldn't give two hoots about.

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That's fair enough - I've listened to enough interviews with Jack Vettriano to have some sympathy with this criticism. Hell, I've read enough books which are considered 'classics' to have been bored stiff by many of them.

On the other hand, from what I've seen of 'popular' entertainment, it does in fact, pay to be discerning and seek out quality. The majority are watching Strictly, X Factor and I'm a Celebrity, and there's no reason at all why I should allow them to shape my opinion on what even merely 'good' art might actually look like.

I can find very little online by (or even about) Catherine Baird, but having read the poems you've linked to, I'm not in a hurry to discover more. Poetry is a very personal thing, but it didn't speak to me.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
You realise that many people watch Strictly/X Factor/I'm A Celebrity AND more 'cultural' programming? I do.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
You realise that many people watch Strictly/X Factor/I'm A Celebrity AND more 'cultural' programming? I do.

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Oh, I'm aware of my own poor choices. But I don't think I'm a taste-maker in any way, and I aspire to popular (ie lucrative) art.

But I'm not going to call the sleb stuff excellent art. It's ... not.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:

quote:

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Originally posted by Doc Tor:
But I'm not going to call the sleb stuff excellent art. It's ... not.

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Of course it's not, doesn't mean it's not enjoyable. I don't think great art should be the only kind of art.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:

I don't know much about Catherine Baird, but her efforts, judging from the piece that Mudfrog has posted, doesn't strike me as anything particular 'special' - certainly not when compared with the writings of some of the great medieval mystics or even an odd-ball mystic such as William Blake.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:

I don't know much about Catherine Baird, but her efforts, judging from the piece that Mudfrog has posted, doesn't strike me as anything particular 'special' - certainly not when compared with the writings of some of the great medieval mystics or even an odd-ball mystic such as William Blake.

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Which is hardly fair! How many other poets could you quote who would stand up against such writers - in the eyes of literature scholars?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
All that said, Doc Tor, it's fair to say that all pre-modern art was produced for a 'utilitarian' purpose ... Renaissance altar pieces weren't produced for 'art's sake' but as commissions by the Church or by patrons.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
All that said, Doc Tor, it's fair to say that all pre-modern art was produced for a 'utilitarian' purpose ... Renaissance altar pieces weren't produced for 'art's sake' but as commissions by the Church or by patrons.

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quote:

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There's nothing wrong with the sentiments it aims to express but there is nothing special about the language or the delivery.

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quote:

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SvitlanaV2: 'The Revelations' is actually the name of the church worship band

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'The Revelations' is actually the name of a number of bands. I think I prefer this one.

Come to think of it, there is actually some black Evangelical music that I find rather good. I really like old-school gospel for example.

[ 23. December 2013, 00:12: Message edited by: LeRoc ]
 

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Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
I'm not surprised it's used as a name for several bands in real life. It's a cool name for a band!

Your reference to 'black Evangelical music' is quite important. So far, this thread has silently assumed a very white and Anglocentric cultural understanding of evangelicalism. It may be that in other cultures there are well-respected examples of poetic expression from evangelicals, especially in cultures where western standards of what counts as high art don't apply, or only apply for literary texts primarily aimed at a western readership.
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
(I knew there had to be a reggae band called The Revelations. They're from Mexico.)
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Black evangelical music is generally better than the white middle-class variety.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I still think Muddie is missing the point big time.

Comparisons are onerous, but if you asked me to provide a ranking or chart for how I rated contemporary evangelical music then it'd probably look something like this, with the 'best' listed first:

- Black Gospel music - both traditional and contemporary.

- Salvation Army music.

- Contemporary hymns (as opposed to choruses/worship songs).

- Contemporary worship songs, with the Townend end of things ranked higher than Hillsongs, say.

If that makes me elitist ...

In terms of Catherine Baird's words for that song Mudfrog cited - and I've not seen any of her other work - then it's certainly competent but arguably on the sentimental and twee side ... a bit like Patience Strong verses on the inside of greetings cards ...



Seriously, Baird's verse isn't execrable, but it certainly doesn't appear as sublime as Mudfrog claims it is.

If I'm showing my elitism, how do we know he isn't showing his own lack of taste and ignorance?


 

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Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :
 
Maybe evangelicals don't do art particularly well. Perhaps we should leave it to the professionals and let the oddly godly do the art for us. In the meantime, here's a poem set to music by Leonard Cohen which has the power make me cry.

Come healing.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
What do we mean by 'the professionals'?

Most people who practice the arts in some form or other don't make a living out of it exclusively.

Most poets and painters, for instance have 'normal' jobs - or else teach - there aren't that many people making a living exclusively from artistic endeavour.

Indeed, if we're talking about poets, then Wallace Stevens was a well-heeled executive, T S Eliot worked for a major publishing house, R S Thomas was a vicar ...

At any one time there's probably no more than one or two people in the UK who earn their living exclusively from poetry - and probably not many more than that in the USA.

The idea that we should 'leave' things to other people is an odd one. Why shouldn't evangelicals be involved with these things?

That all sounds very dualistic and binary to me and, if anything, confirms the suspicions I aired in the OP ... that there is something inherent and intrinsic within evangelicalism which withdraws from meaningful engagement with these things because it can't cope with anything that stretches its narrow little mind ...
 

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Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The idea that we should 'leave' things to other people is an odd one. Why shouldn't evangelicals be involved with these things?

That all sounds very dualistic and binary to me and, if anything, confirms the suspicions I aired in the OP ... that there is something inherent and intrinsic within evangelicalism which withdraws from meaningful engagement with these things because it can't cope with anything that stretches its narrow little mind ...

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quote:

---

Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The idea that we should 'leave' things to other people is an odd one. Why shouldn't evangelicals be involved with these things?

That all sounds very dualistic and binary to me and, if anything, confirms the suspicions I aired in the OP ... that there is something inherent and intrinsic within evangelicalism which withdraws from meaningful engagement with these things because it can't cope with anything that stretches its narrow little mind ...

---

I wonder if the 'something inherent and intrinsic within evangelicalism' is more a desire to be faithful to God which manifests itself as a separation from areas of life that are seen as ungodly and unwholesome. Clearly, there's plenty of hedonism and so on in many spheres of artistic endeavour, so maybe that prompts some evangelicals to steer clear.

IMO, this is not the best approach - seeing as there's nothing inherently ungodly in poetry, acting, painting, etc. I think Christians should get involved and bring God's presence into these spheres of life. Yeast in the bread, light in the darkness...

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quote:

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SvitlanaV2: There are probably quite a few evangelical artists, poets and actors/broadcasters around today, but no one's paying them to be 'Yeast in the bread, light in the darkness', etc., etc., just to do a decent job and try to be nice about it.

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quote:

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SvitlanaV2: Not all evangelicals seek to escape from the world

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quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

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SvitlanaV2: Not all evangelicals seek to escape from the world

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I know, and I didn't say they do.

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That paragraph wasn't really a response to you but to some of the previous posters, who implied that evangelicals have regrettably shut themselves away from the creative world instead of engaging with it.
 

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Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :
 
I come from evangelicalism, would still be considered by many as evangelical (though of the 'open' variety), and am critical of evangelical engagement with art. I also earn a living from my art.


 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I am posting in very general terms here and I haven't said that there are no evangelicals engaged in the arts here in the UK. Nor have I ever said that all evangelicals seek to escape from the world.

I would fully accept that it is very difficult for evangelical students in certain artistic education environments. I know that from family members whose experience was similar to SvitlanaV2's mum.

However, I can only speak as I find.

I find the following:

- For the last 3 or 4 years I have run Lenten study groups/workshops through our local Churches Together. These have dealt with issues of spirituality and the arts - poetry, paintings, sculpture etc.

I have also laid on the occasional larger event which have involved creative dialogue, if you like, between artists with a strong Christian faith position and those without.

These events have gone well.

We are not talking big numbers each time and I was never expecting that.

We've had people from the RCs, Methodists, URC and the liberal Anglican parish. We've had non-Christians, both agnostics and atheists. We even had a Buddhist couple at one session.

But we have never, ever had any evangelicals.

Not one. Nada. Zilch.

Why is that?

As Seamus Heaney's 'Casualty' would have said, 'Now, you're supposed to be an educated man (or woman), puzzle me the answer to that one?'

Hence the OP.

Is it any surprise that I have reached the conclusions I've reached on this one?
 

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Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :
 
You seem to be trapped into a binary world where evangelicalism and art of diametrically opposed to one another. Perhaps you should completely abandon any sense of being guided by God into your opinion and simply agree that my constant and unwavering position of principled and ambivalent impartiality is by far the more enlightened way.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Would 'bollocks' be too binary a response to this, daronmedway?

quote:

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Originally posted by daronmedway:
You seem to be trapped into a binary world where evangelicalism and art of diametrically opposed to one another. Perhaps you should completely abandon any sense of being guided by God into your opinion and simply agree that my constant and unwavering position of principled and ambivalent impartiality is by far the more enlightened way.

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Unless you are being satirical, in which case it's actually quite clever ...


 

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Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

I'm sure it's different in the USA and some other countries where there's a strong enough evangelical culture to support the study and even the production of 'serious' art. For example, there are evangelical universities where students can study the humanities, including literature and creative writing.

---

I'd still struggle to think up examples of 'serious' evangelical art in the US [*] despite the universities like Wheaton (and again Wheaton is very much the strongest evangelical university in this vein).

As I said across a number of posts. Evangelicalism itself hasn't existed that long as a movement - there were periods where other traditions didn't produce much great art - similarly it came into existence in a an era where the the great imagery that had served as a common vocabulary in the past was dying out and in a subculture where arts were seen as somewhat suspicious.

Not sure I agree with Gamaliel's idea that hedonism in arts was the result of the church withdrawing from them - a study of the lives of the renaissance painters would be a fairly convincing counter argument.

[*] and anyone who wants to refer to non-Western evangelical art should give examples, otherwise it remains somewhat mythic.
 

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Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :
 
I don't think it's an either or option between satire and bollocks but something much more nuanced; the subtleties of which only a select few who've reached an advanced degree of discernment and incision can fully appreciate.

x-posted

[ 24. December 2013, 09:36: Message edited by: daronmedway ]
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I'm glad you clarified that, daronmedway. Now I can join your club ...



@Chris Stiles, no, I didn't claim that hedonism in the arts was the sole reason why evangelicals appear - to an extent - to have disengaged from it.

There's a whole range of complex historical/social and cultural factors - the Enlightenment, the decline of religious/aristocratic patronage, Romanticism and the emergence of the idea of the 'bohemian artist', Modernism and the emergence of the notion of the avant-garde ...

And much else.

Daronmedway's entertaining quips aside, I'm still waiting of an answer/comment on my observation that NO evangelicals have ever got involved in any of the church-based arty-farty things I've organised here.

Does this say something about them? Or does it say something about them?

Does or doesn't it tell us something?

This is bugger all about being elitist or clique-ish ... I've laid on some generally and readily accessible arty events and no evangelicals have ever come along to them.

Reasons?

I suspect there are many. One of which is that they're too far up their own arses in their cliquey house-groups and all.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Actually, that reads a bit touchy and overly sensitive too ...



My bad.

I suspect, though, that the reason why our local evangelicals tend not to support these kind of events is because they've developed a tradition of not supporting an awful lot that goes on across the piece - they are wary of them liberals ... - and also because they're too busy with the unrelenting round of meetings, house-groups and hyperactivity in their own churches ... they don't have time for anything else.
 

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Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 
A professional painter, now sadly dead, once told me that when she first began to come to faith in her mid years, she found a tension between how she'd been taught as an artist, that this was all about expressing yourself, and how that wasn't really a very Christian idea. Indeed, the more one thinks about it, the more profoundly that is at variance with any Christian world view, whether evangelical or otherwise. She wasn't and never became a card carrying evangelical. She'd found this both challenging and stimulating since it went to the core of what her professional discipline was supposed to be about - to the detriment of all the assumptions she had been making.

That's painting which is visual. Poetry is about words. However, a similar tension does seem to have underlain most of the creative media during the last century or so.

The trouble also is, that IMHO there's been very little art produced in the last 100 years or so that's meant to have a Christian context that's any good. In the past, technical competence rescued a lot of the mediocre from the artistic abyss, though I suspect a lot of the wall paintings that were whitewashed over at the Reformation were cheap rubbish. But these days, the notion that the artists is supposed to contribute his or her personal take means that if that take hasn't got anything universal to say, the result is a waste of space. My particular bugbear is this excrescence. It's worse in the flesh.

Art's a personal thing. I don't actually like this classic example that much. It makes Jesus look like a large white wasp. However, I think this , this and this, all from the same place, are excellent.

It's clear from the tributes underneath that there are people who like
this sort of thing, but I'm not sure I want to meet them. IMHO, it is the visual equivalence of Patience Strong.
 

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Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:

Daronmedway's entertaining quips aside, I'm still waiting of an answer/comment on my observation that NO evangelicals have ever got involved in any of the church-based arty-farty things I've organised here.

Does this say something about them? Or does it say something about them?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Enoch:
A professional painter, now sadly dead, once told me that when she first began to come to faith in her mid years, she found a tension between how she'd been taught as an artist, that this was all about expressing yourself, and how that wasn't really a very Christian idea. Indeed, the more one thinks about it, the more profoundly that is at variance with any Christian world view, whether evangelical or otherwise.

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quote:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Mary Whitehouse. It's interesting to reflect that she was an art teacher. I wonder how she reconciled her love of art with her evangelicalism.

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Whitehouse didn't strike me as being very bright.

Since she taught in a secondary mod., it is unlikely that she had an art degree. More likely a Cert. Ed.

I imagine kids painting jars of flowers in her lessons.
 

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 
And I'll add that there is nothing wrong with sec. mod. teachers - salt of the earth who dealt with some difficult kids for low salaries.

Graduates, by and large, wouldn't usually want to teach in - couldn't cope with - a sec. mod.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Now THAT is elitist ... leo ...

But then, we've come to expect little else ...


 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I went to a bog-standard comprehensive that had been a secondary modern. The arty side of things was pretty good there. They even had Gillian Clarke as a poet-in-residence a year or two after I'd left ... something almost unheard of at that time ...

I'd hoped we could get over the elistist thing in this dicussion. I've been accused of it by Mudfrog. Now I'm - jokingly perhaps - accusing leo of the same.

I think Chris Stiles is right on the spiritual priorities thing ...

Or perceptions of such.

I also think I know the place he's referring to but not naming. But I might be wrong. I won't attempt to name it.
 

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Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:


Daronmedway's entertaining quips aside, I'm still waiting of an answer/comment on my observation that NO evangelicals have ever got involved in any of the church-based arty-farty things I've organised here.

Does this say something about them? Or does it say something about them?

Does or doesn't it tell us something?

This is bugger all about being elitist or clique-ish ... I've laid on some generally and readily accessible arty events and no evangelicals have ever come along to them.

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Do you check the theological credentials of everyone who attends your events? There are Methodists who see themselves as evangelicals, and no doubt the same is true of the URC as well. Indeed, you say your own church is evangelical CofE - don't you get any support from the ones in your congregations? Don't you ever have strangers attending whose religious beliefs are unknown to you?

It sounds as if you live in the sort of place where everyone vaguely knows each other. That being the case, perhaps the 'evangelicals' know that you see them as being 'up their own arses' and so prefer to keep you and your events at a safe distance!


 

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Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by chris stiles:

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

I'm sure it's different in the USA and some other countries where there's a strong enough evangelical culture to support the study and even the production of 'serious' art. For example, there are evangelical universities where students can study the humanities, including literature and creative writing.

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I'd still struggle to think up examples of 'serious' evangelical art in the US [*] despite the universities like Wheaton (and again Wheaton is very much the strongest evangelical university in this vein).

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Enoch:
A professional painter, now sadly dead, once told me that when she first began to come to faith in her mid years, she found a tension between how she'd been taught as an artist, that this was all about expressing yourself, and how that wasn't really a very Christian idea. Indeed, the more one thinks about it, the more profoundly that is at variance with any Christian world view, whether evangelical or otherwise.

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Really? What makes you say that?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I went to a bog-standard comprehensive that had been a secondary modern. The arty side of things was pretty good there. They even had Gillian Clarke as a poet-in-residence a year or two after I'd left ... something almost unheard of at that time ...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'd agree we aren't put here just to express ourselves, but I wasn't aware there was anything un-Christian in doing so from time to time.

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quote:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I wouldn't know; I don't particularly follow the American art scene. But in a country where such a high percentage of people claim to be evangelical or born again it's hard to imagine that none of them produce anything of serious artistic value, by conventional standards.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by chris stiles:

quote:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I wouldn't know; I don't particularly follow the American art scene. But in a country where such a high percentage of people claim to be evangelical or born again it's hard to imagine that none of them produce anything of serious artistic value, by conventional standards.

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I am slightly more familiar with American evangelicalism - as well as knowing a few people who are in that scene and who have a strong artistic impulse. There's a reason why CS Lewis' archive is in Wheaton, and why Sayers, Chesterton, Lewis etc have such a large place in 'evangelical' departments of such kind. Every few years there will be a rash of articles in the Christian press bemoaning the fact that the evangelical world hasn't produced authors or artists of such stature - and why evangelical input into the visual arts doesn't extend much beyond Thomas Kinkade.

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quote:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
arguably.

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So name names and make an argument.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
@SvitlanaV2 - well, you're right, in a town of around 15,000 people you do tend to know where people stand theologically out of the several hundred church-goers that there are in the population.

The point I'm making is that no, I don't get any support whatsoever from my local evangelical Anglican parish for any arty-type events I may organise through Churches Together.

Sure, I don't expect them to turn up to my regular Poems & Pints sessions but one might expect them to at least show some kind of interest or curiosity in what I'm doing with these events, even if they don't come along themselves.

The vicar, to be fair, is supportive and lets me announce them, put them in the church magazine etc and he would have come to one event if it hadn't clashed with his New Wine regional leaders' meeting ...

I'm not particularly bothered about who comes to these events - and what their theological stance is. The Methodists I've known who've come along have been pretty MoR - rather than evangelical.

I've had atheists along and Buddhists.

I've not had any evangelicals - at least, no obvious ones such as people from the evangelical Anglican parish or from the Pentecostals.

These have been conspicuous by their absence.

And no, it's not because they know that I think they're up their own backsides in house-groups and so on. They wouldn't be aware that I think that. I wickedly talk behind their backs on these boards ...


 

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Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
daronmedway's entertaining quips aside, I'm still waiting of an answer/comment on my observation that NO evangelicals have ever got involved in any of the church-based arty-farty things I've organised here.

Does this say something about them? Or does it say something about them?

Does or doesn't it tell us something?

This is bugger all about being elitist or clique-ish ... I've laid on some generally and readily accessible arty events and no evangelicals have ever come along to them.

Reasons?

I suspect there are many. One of which is that they're too far up their own arses in their cliquey house-groups and all.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Conservative evangelicalism

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I'm not sure why this would be more true of conservative evangelicalism, than any other movement.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
FWIW, I tend to see my arty involvement as something that happens 'outside' of church ... but I will bring my faith into it where appropriate.

Over Lent, though, as there are Churches Together things going on I like to include an arty element in there ... and this coming Lent am doing something reasonably ambitious in that respect.

Hear me right in this ... I would dearly love to involve my evangelical co-parishioners in this. And our vicar is quite arty in his own way and quite supportive.

But the reality is, they just don't seem to 'get' it. I'm not saying that's their 'fault' - simply making the observation that whilst you'll find people from the other churches at these things, you don't see the evangelicals at all.

I'll level with daronmedway. I love evangelical Bible studies. If there were decent evangelical style Bible studies and house-groups here I'd get involved with one. But there aren't.

What passes for Bible study at our evangelical parish is simply a mish-mash of random thoughts and subjective and highly pietistic responses.

The local Catholics do better Bible studies here than the evangelicals.

I'm sure those run at daronmedway's church are a lot better ... and I can certainly recognise his caricature of more liberal, touchy-feely stuff - but believe you me, by and large it's not the liberals and the MoR people who are laying on the highly subjective, all-about-me, touchy-feely shite around here but the evangelicals ...

The vicar knows better than that but he tends to serve stuff to meet the lowest common-denominator. It's all half-baked New Wine-y cliche.

I've not been to one of the house-groups for over four years because they drove me nuts. Subjective, wishy-washy pietistic dish-water ... and the vicar was sat there letting it all happen because he's got about as much discernment as a sea anemone.

He's a good bloke and he means well ... but wild-horses wouldn't drag me back to one of those housegroups.

What's a lad to do?

Trying to incorporate some genuinely meaty things about the Incarnation and so on into my annual arty events seems one solution. It might not be perfect ... but you've got to start somewhere and do something ...

That's the context and that's perhaps why I got a bit touchy with daronmedway back there ...


 

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Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:


Over Lent, though, as there are Churches Together things going on I like to include an arty element in there ... and this coming Lent am doing something reasonably ambitious in that respect.

Hear me right in this ... I would dearly love to involve my evangelical co-parishioners in this. And our vicar is quite arty in his own way and quite supportive.

But the reality is, they just don't seem to 'get' it. I'm not saying that's their 'fault' - simply making the observation that whilst you'll find people from the other churches at these things, you don't see the evangelicals at all.

---

quote:

---

Picture the scene. A bearded man in sandals who skips from side to side as he speaks like a demented court jester is sharing how a picture he drew in crayon in a 24-7 prayer room makes him feel about social justice. The evangelicals gently close their bibles and ready themselves for an evening of naval gazing, touchy feely Christ-me-anity. They don't come back.

Daronmedway is talking out of his arse again.

If you think that your caricature represents anything that would happen at the kind of arty event I'd organise then you've clearly not been to one.

How about this? Does this apply in reverse?

Picture the scene. An engaging and thought-provoking evening with discussions of poetry, art and Biblical texts takes place. The evangelicals don't attend. Instead they remain at their house-groups and gently close their bibles following an evening of, touchy feely Christ-me-anity. They don't know what they've missed.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
... @Enoch - yes, you're right about the difference between song lyrics and poetry. Read Bob Dylan's lyrics on the page and you wonder what the fuss is all about ...

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And on the airwaves IMHO, but I realise that's a personal view, that some Shipmates may regard as akin to blasphemy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Gamaliel

The point remains that if your town's evangelicals don't 'get' your events, it's for the best that they don't attend and spoil things for the others. Alternatively, if you think it's important to reach them you might have to reconsider your marketing strategy and/or some of your content.

BTW, A few years ago I considered starting an ecumenical reading group in the area. We have a strong Churches Together network, and local evangelical ministers are supportive. I didn't consider the evangelical/non-evangelical divide. From my POV of view, though, a group of only Methodists, URC folk and liberal Catholic Anglicans would simply lack punch.

The problem is that these types of arty, talky, sophisticated events do attract a certain demographic, even for non-church events. Age, gender, educational background, ethnicity, culture and professional status do come into play. ... Certain activities attract certain personality types, and different personality types predominate in different denominations, just as they do in different walks of life.

---

I'd go along with this and that's the sort of thing I was wanting to explore.

Don't get me wrong, the evangelicals hereabouts don't consciously boycott anything I lay on because it's me laying it on - far from it. They're all pretty well disposed to me as far as I can tell - probably better disposed to me, many of them, than I am to them.

Their attendance or non-attendance at Churches Together type events isn't really the issue - although few evangelicals do attend the CTA events ...

The issue is more one of why these events should apparently appeal to others but not the evangelicals ...

In fairness, I've attended CTA events that are so vague and wishy-washy that Christ is hardly mentioned at all ... and I remember one (not an arty event) where two evangelical participants (an old, retired Methodist minister and one of the local Pentecostals) wrote afterwards to complain.

I agreed with the thrust and tone of their letter and it was very well written and argued.

With some of the CTA types 'spirituality' is reduced to almost anything that makes you feel better about yourself and the world around you - be it watching Match of The Day or a Tai-Chi class.

That's not what I'd be driving at in any arty event that I organised.

I agree with you that we need the full gamut. I wouldn't be satisfied with events that simply attract the Methodists, URC, people from the liberal catholic Anglican parish and the occasional Roman Catholic.

I'd love to have some of the evangelicals there. Even if they do come out with bullshit - as one of them did at the RC lectio-divina group once - and the RCs handled it a lot more graciously than I might have done.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the evangelicals always talk bollocks, of course they don't - but there is a strain of pietistic cloud-cuckoo land nonsense that tends to surface every now and again.

With a different flavour of evangelical, it would be a different flavour of both good stuff and bollocks.

Just as there's both good stuff and bollocks across the other churches in town.

I s'pose the tension comes because I'm a more reflective, contemplative arty post-evangelical type in a setting that is predominantly activist and Janet-and-John in its approach ...


 

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Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Zappa:
... R S Thomas gives me gaps in which to find his "fast God" ... most of what passes for Christian Poetry simply dictates terms - like a national anthem or a football club song.

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Are the poems at the end of that link not those of R.S. but of Iris Thomas?
 

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Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:


Don't get me wrong, the evangelicals hereabouts don't consciously boycott anything I lay on because it's me laying it on - far from it. They're all pretty well disposed to me as far as I can tell - probably better disposed to me, many of them, than I am to them.

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