Thread: Doctor Who: Silence will fall - the Doctor Who thread returns Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Rev per Minute (# 69) on :
 
Unless I am mistaken (and I often am), no thread for the new series has yet been started - so here it is.

Doctor Who returns this Saturday on BBC1 at 6.00 pm, with the Doctor meeting President Nixon (I see myself having to explain Watergate to my daughters). This year, we get two bites at the cherry - seven episodes between now and July, and six more in the autumn.

We also 'know' that one of the main characters will be killed - given that we have already seen two of them die, and a third has this awkward habit of regenerating, does that leave only one possible victim? And what (or who) will River Song turn out to be - mother, wife, mistress, Master?

Ooo-ee-oo...

[Gave in to my inner fan-woman and corrected title - Tubbs]

[ 17. June 2016, 14:40: Message edited by: Belisarius ]
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
Judging from the trailers, this coming season looks like reaching a whole new level of weirdness.

"There are no monsters in the White House..."

"I want a swat team, a pot of coffee and twelve jammie dodgers..."

"My life in your hands...."

And I don't care if I am 48 - I reserve the right to be scared of sad clowns and grotesque dolls.
 

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Posted by Balaam (# 4543) on :
 
Well the BBC have issued some spoilers...

1. The first story is a two parter, featuring President Nixon and River Song. (Hello Sweetie.)

2. Stetsons are cool.

3. That's about it.
 

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Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :
 
Time to hoover behind the sofa! I'm excited already!

Tubbs
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
By the way - though one hates to be a pedant in Heaven - isn't it "Silence will fall"?

And be thorough with your hoovering, Tubbs - Steven Moffat claims that the bad guys in the first story are some of the scariest we've ever had!
 

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Posted by Ferijen (# 4719) on :
 
You know that series trailer that came out about three weeks ago?

34/35 seconds in. Just saying...
 

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Posted by Rev per Minute (# 69) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
By the way - though one hates to be a pedant in Heaven - isn't it "Silence will fall"?

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Err... yes Hangs head in shame, realises that thread title will now haunt him for the rest of the series

Weather's nice today, isn't it?
 

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Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Rev per Minute:

quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
By the way - though one hates to be a pedant in Heaven - isn't it "Silence will fall"?

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Err... yes Hangs head in shame, realises that thread title will now haunt him for the rest of the series

Weather's nice today, isn't it?

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No it won't.

Tubbs
 

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Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
Looking forward to it. I think Moffat probably took on board some of the criticism of the last series, so I am hopeful that this series will be much better.

River Song insights are good. And there seems to be a lot of universal doom coming, which is always cool.
 

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Posted by sophs (# 2296) on :
 
Have people seen the news? It's just been confirmed that Elisabeth Sladen has died. Rumour is that she was battling cancer.


 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 

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Originally posted by sophs:
Have people seen the news? It's just been confirmed that Elisabeth Sladen has died. Rumour is that she was battling cancer.

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quote:

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Originally posted by sophs:
Have people seen the news? It's just been confirmed that Elisabeth Sladen has died.

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quote:

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Originally posted by sophs:
Have people seen the news? It's just been confirmed that Elisabeth Sladen has died. Rumour is that she was battling cancer.

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Oh, that is so sad. Just the other day I was watching the DVD of Planet of Evil and enjoying her commentary track. And the next one I was planning on watching is her (at the time) swan song in The Hand of Fear. I just may cry.

My little car is even named Sarah Jane out of fondness for her. I need to get a black ribbon to hang from the rearview mirror.

Rest in peace, Lis Sladen.
 

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Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
I loved her recent work. She took the character to a whole other level. I want to be as awesome as Sarah Jane one day.

Didn't we lose Nicholas Courtney recently too?
 

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Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
... And there seems to be a lot of universal doom coming, which is always cool.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gill H:
I loved her recent work. She took the character to a whole other level. I want to be as awesome as Sarah Jane one day.

Didn't we lose Nicholas Courtney recently too?

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Yes we did.

My daughters and I were always amazed at how young Lis Sladen looked, and we were all surprised by the news. It's funny how she appealed to both generations thanks to SJA.

I expect some acknowledgement of her death on Saturday after the first episode?
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
Lis Sladen has had an amazing impact on the lives of at least two distinct generations of Doctor Who viewers, not to mention her popularity in The Sarah Jane Adventures. Last night, one of the DW fan websites clocked up over 1000 posts in their tribute thread withing about 4 hours of the news breaking. It's the number 1 story on the BBC news site, with over 400 comments in tribute there too. It's astonishing.

Yes, Nicholas Courtney, who played the Brigadier, died recently too, a wonderful gentleman by all accounts, though I never met him myself. Elisabeth's co-star, Ian Marter, who played Harry Sullivan, died quite a few years ago now, very young. One comment I read on another site last night quoted one of Sarah Jane's last lines from the classic series, as she's about to leave the Doctor -

quote:

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"...And I'll give your love to Harry and the Brigadier..."

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I'd imagine there'll be something like a mention in the show's credits either this week or next.
 

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Posted by Bob Two-Owls (# 9680) on :
 
I'm really quite saddened by this, I have met most of the classic Dr Who cast regulars from the Third doctor onwards but Elisabeth Sladen was always my favourite companion. I shall be watching The Hand of Fear tonight.
 

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Posted by Eigon (# 4917) on :
 
Apparently there's going to be a 15 minute tribute to Lis Sladen after The Impossible Astronaut on Saturday.
 

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Posted by The Revolutionist (# 4578) on :
 
I'm so sad to hear about Lis Sladen. Sarah Jane was a wonderful companion. I'm glad that there will be the tribute programme after Saturday's Doctor Who, over on the CBBC channel at 6.45pm.

From the trailers and publicity, the new series is looking great. In the latest Doctor Who Magazine, Steven Moffat says that with the previous series, they were still trying to reassure people that it was the same show as under Russell T Davies, but now they've established the new Doctor and new look, they're going to be much more ambitious in terms of building ongoing storylines, and aiming for more scares and creepiness. Sounds good to me!
 

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Posted by Alaric the Goth (# 511) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:
I'm really quite saddened by this, I have met most of the classic Dr Who cast regulars from the Third doctor onwards but Elisabeth Sladen was always my favourite companion. I shall be watching The Hand of Fear tonight.

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So am I. Sarah Jane was always THE Doctor Who girl to me.
 

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Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Alaric the Goth:

quote:

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Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:
I'm really quite saddened by this, I have met most of the classic Dr Who cast regulars from the Third doctor onwards but Elisabeth Sladen was always my favourite companion. I shall be watching The Hand of Fear tonight.

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So am I. Sarah Jane was always THE Doctor Who girl to me.

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Yes I think I agree. There were others, but they were just taking the role of Sarah Jane. I think she epitomised the Doctors companion perfectly - young and attractive, but feisty and capable too - a contrast and yet a match.
 

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Posted by maeme (# 16362) on :
 
I was sorry to hear of Liz Sladen's passing. As a Dr Who companion she was great! She had her own personality and intelligence but she never tried to upstage the Doctor. Sarah Jane we will miss you! Best episode "Seeds of Doom"
 

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Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
Welcome to the Ship, maeme.

There's an introduction thread in All Saints - but it's not obligatory.

Trust you have happy voyaging.

Firenze
Heaven Host
 

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Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :
 
On a happier note, Neil Gaiman has written one of the episodes for the new series - NERDGASM!!!
 

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Posted by Eigon (# 4917) on :
 
And it's called The Doctor's Wife....
 

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Posted by Surfing Madness (# 11087) on :
 
So what did people think? My inital reaction is I'm not feeling that hooked. I was expecting to be scared and I wasn't but maybe as the plot develops I will be.
 

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Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
I think there was rather a lot of set-up for things happening in the next episode (or even later in the series) and not a lot of things happening in the episode itself, if that makes sense.
So it both felt busy and at the same time uneventful.
I suppose most sf fans would have seen the big twist about half way through coming as soon as the Doctor said 'Don't interfere'.

I enjoyed it all the way through pretty much, but I agree it never really gripped.

[ 23. April 2011, 21:25: Message edited by: Dafyd ]
 

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
Moffat has imposed some tricky constraints on future developments, though, hasn't he? 200 odd years of Matt Smith with no companion, no regenerations, followed by a very terminal death.

I wasn't very stressed about the who was going to die, because some of the trailing press releases included thoughts from all four major members of the cast from later in the series.

Penny
 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
Good monsters - modelled on 'The Scream'

I'm not sure if the characters' lack of reaction to them (due to instant amnesia) will help the suspense 'tho. It's hard to 'look through their eyes' when they see nothing!
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
I loved it. A slightly more sombre Doctor than last season, a nicely settles-down Amy and Rory, and River finally being given more to do than timey-wimey stuff and innuendo - her conversation with Rory towards the end of the episode was very effective, especially when she said something like, "One day I know I'll look into his eyes and he won't know me - and I think it'll kill me."

I like the direction Moffat's taking - for the first time in a very long time I genuinely can't see what might happen next, either in this story or in the rest of the series. Though I imagine something will happen so that Matt Smith won't be tied into a 200-year contract.
 

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Posted by Emma Louise (# 3571) on :
 
It all seemed a bit "time travellers wifey" really doesn't it. And presumably the big awful thing river did was kill the doctor at some point? Or something similar.

I found it a bit boring but thought it might be setting up for later shows so will stick with it.

I remember from a past series he had a daughter - did we ever hear how that happened? I've completely forgotten.
 

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Posted by Eigon (# 4917) on :
 
He got cloned against his will, to produce the daughter, who pinched a spaceship and went off to have adventures of her own.

I thought it was very good - and just because he was companionless at the end doesn't mean he's spent 200 years without a companion. I think he invited those particular companions, and his earlier self, because they needed to go and solve this particular problem. And also because he remembered it happening that way.
 

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Posted by Joshua Bell (# 16323) on :
 
Verrrrry interesting. I have to say I always found the space-time paradoxes and puzzles much more interesting than the basic 'army of aliens' themes. Of course the whole idea from last series with the rift has only been half-resolved, so how (if at all) that fits in with the Doctor being dead or not will be interesting to see. I too suspect that Song killed the Doctor, though whether permanently or just to make him regenerate is a good question. I think the thing to bear in mind is that History is never really solid with the Dr. We'll have to see what happens!
 

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Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
I'm not sure if the characters' lack of reaction to them (due to instant amnesia) will help the suspense 'tho. It's hard to 'look through their eyes' when they see nothing!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Surfing Madness:
So what did people think? My inital reaction is I'm not feeling that hooked. I was expecting to be scared and I wasn't but maybe as the plot develops I will be.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:
I'm getting rather turned off by his being full of himself at times.

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quote:

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The thing to have done would have been for someone looking at them to yell out a description to someone in earshot who wasn't looking at them, take a pic on the mobile phone, then get the hell out of there and then be reminded by the person who hadn't seen them.

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quote:

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though Paul McGann was never in anything we recognise as canonical *cough*

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dafyd:
Only Amy saw them for long enough to work out that she couldn't remember them. And she did take a picture on her phone. True, she didn't call out a description to the secret service man outside - but I assume she's been around enough to realise that redshirts are less than useless against aliens in Doctor Who.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:
True, but I was thinking that a natural human reaction would have been for River to call out to Rory and warn him and give a description of what she was looking at.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:
True, but I was thinking that a natural human reaction would have been for River to call out to Rory and warn him and give a description of what she was looking at.

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In order to do that you have to know not to take your eyes off what you're looking at. (Is this a Steven Moffat theme?)
I'm not sure that the natural human reaction isn't to get out of there and describe what you saw to the other person once you have the safety of numbers.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Don't think Nixon is going to get that, somehow.

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Didn't Spock say, "Only Nixon could go to China"?

 

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Posted by M. (# 3291) on :
 
Like mrs whibley, I wondered whether both Amy and River are supposed to be pregnant - they both started feeling sick after seeing the aliens. I also hope, really hope, that one or both is/are not pregnant by the aliens, that would just be a dreadful plot line (shades of Torchwood!)*. I hope it's all part of the deception - Amy has to tell the Doctor 'what he must know and what he must never know'. I assumed that the 'what he must never know' referred to his 'death'. But perhaps it refers to something else?

I was also slightly surprised that at the beginning of the episode, Amy and Rory weren't travelling with the Doctor, which is where we left them at the end of the Christmas special. And I am getting a bit sick of the 'Doctor being killed but not really' plotline too. There's no tension in it because you know he's not really dead.

But overall the episode did set up a good puzzle and I'm looking forward to next Saturday.

M.

*Perhaps they're both pregnant by the Doctor and one child will turn out to be Susan's mother/father!
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
I don't know how Amy would be able to know so quickly after seeing the aliens that she was pregnant. Like others, I also hope this isn't another "Gwen"-type storyline.

I'm still wondering whether River is a Time Lord. She did manage to leave a message for him in one episode in Gallifreyan.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:
I'm still wondering whether River is a Time Lord. She did manage to leave a message for him in one episode in Gallifreyan.

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quote:

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Originally posted by M.:
Like mrs whibley, I wondered whether both Amy and River are supposed to be pregnant - they both started feeling sick after seeing the aliens.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:
I don't know how Amy would be able to know so quickly after seeing the aliens that she was pregnant. Like others, I also hope this isn't another "Gwen"-type storyline.

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quote:

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Originally posted by M.:
I hope it's all part of the deception - Amy has to tell the Doctor 'what he must know and what he must never know'. I assumed that the 'what he must never know' referred to his 'death'. But perhaps it refers to something else?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eigon:
He's arranged for his own death when he's 1100+ - which leaves plenty of time for him not to know what's going on beforehand, so they shouldn't tell him yet.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Hedgehog:
He deliberately created the very opportunity that they are refusing to use!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dafyd:
Either future Doctor wanted them not to let past Doctor know, or he wanted them to let past Doctor know.
If he had wanted them to tell past self he didn't need to go to such trouble to make sure past self didn't know about future self. While if he didn't want past self to know he did need to go to that amount of trouble. The evidence therefore is more consistent with him not wanting past self to know.

In addition to not letting his past self know about his death, future self didn't let anyone know why he was arranging his death or who it was in the spacesuit or so on. So again, that's an argument against telling his past self.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Hedgehog:
But my point really is not what Stetson Doctor wanted (as I said, it is already a done deal for him). My point is that there is no logic in River's position. She knows that future Docotr knows about his death ahead of time, so her arguing that she can't tell the Doctor that he is going to die in the future simply hold no water from her own perspective.

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quote:

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Amy: We have to tell him.
River: We've told him all we can. We can't even tell him we've seen his future self. He's interacted with his own past, it could rip a hole in the universe.
Amy: Yeah but he's done it before.
Rory: And in fairness the universe did blow up.

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quote:

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Originally posted by wilson:

quote:

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Amy: We have to tell him.
River: We've told him all we can. We can't even tell him we've seen his future self. He's interacted with his own past, it could rip a hole in the universe.
Amy: Yeah but he's done it before.
Rory: And in fairness the universe did blow up.

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River's trying to minimize the amount of future-past interaction. Sure she knows that at some point the Doctor finds out, but she doesn't know how that happened and recklessly assuming it's ok to tell him when a rip in the universe is possible is risky to say the least.

Or in other words - "Don't cross the streams."

You can only dismiss River's logic if you know precisely how the future-past self-interaction causes a universe-rip and therefore whether it's safe to tell him something he will at some point know. Since we don't know how it works we can't do that. We have to assume - until shown otherwise - that River knows what she's talking about. Or thinks she does. Either way her logic from her own point of view is sound.

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Originally posted by Matt Black:
Hmmm...I'm beginning to find these 'whole season story arcs' rather tedious. I primarily watch DW for entertainment not to try to remember what appears to be a minor detail in Episode #2 which turns out to be a major detail in Episode #9 or something.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
And whats this about missing any? That is what V+ is for. And Catchup. And the internet. And +1. And the other stuff in the digital TV revolution.

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quote:

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Originally posted by wilson:
My one quibble - which is minor - is that the jammie-dodgers-and-a-fez line felt like it was shoe-horned in to make a good clip for the trailer.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Matt Black:
Hmmm...I'm beginning to find these 'whole season story arcs' rather tedious. I primarily watch DW for entertainment not to try to remember what appears to be a minor detail in Episode #2 which turns out to be a major detail in Episode #9 or something.

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quote:

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Originally posted by tessaB:
Actually thinking more it sort of did kill her didn't it? Have I completely lost my marbly bits or did she end up in the computer?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

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Originally posted by tessaB:
Actually thinking more it sort of did kill her didn't it? Have I completely lost my marbly bits or did she end up in the computer?

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You haven't lost anything. It's dramatic irony.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:

quote:

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Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
And whats this about missing any? That is what V+ is for. And Catchup. And the internet. And +1. And the other stuff in the digital TV revolution.

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The only one of those I've heard of is the internet.

(And I'll have you know that I had to get up super-early to watch this episode on iPlayer, to benefit from "free" download time, otherwise it would have eaten a large hole in my monthly bandwidth allowance. We don't get any freeview channels yet in this area, so repeats on BBC3 or BBC4 are no use to me, and my VCR isn't working. We don't all live in the fast lane.)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Dull and incomprehensible. Has the series now jumped the shark?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Avila:
Think I will have to watch this one a couple of times...

Came in from busy day as it started and my brain not up to it

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quote:

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Originally posted by wilson:
Oh and disembodied frightened voices coming from flashing LED devices and mysterious close-visor-ed spacesuits chasing our heroes? Seems like we've been here before.

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We have been here before and I'm wondering if this is deliberate, because it echoes the scene in which River Song first appears, way back in the Donna Noble days, in the Library. There was the Walking Spacesuit of Death, River introducing herself as an archaeologist, and blasting a few creaturoids, if I remember correctly. In which case we may just be about to see the last of River.
 

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Posted by The Revolutionist (# 4578) on :
 
That was brilliant! I love Moffat's approach to Doctor Who. Although he perhaps overuses certain concepts and devices, he usually recombines them in interesting and different ways.

It was a clever way for the Doctor to set back the Silence's plans - though there was one around in 2011 in the previous episode, so they can't have been completely defeated. I'm certain we haven't seen the last of the Silence.

There were so many intriguing elements... who was the Eye Patch Woman? What's up with Amy's pregnancy? And who is the child? So many mysteries, it's great.

It did move rather quickly, and required quite close attention and joining of the dots to make sense of the plot. The cliffhanger resolution in particular was filled in rather briefly and oddly. I think I followed it all, just about, but I hope it isn't this dense every week. It's definitely written for the iPlayer/boxset age, designed to reward repeated and attentive viewing. I like that approach, but I don't think Doctor Who should go too far down that route.

But a few quibbles aside, a confident, exciting opener that sets up the rest of the series nicely. Great stuff.
 

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Posted by Stranger in a strange land (# 11922) on :
 
Any one else feel that Amy Pond=River Song (or at least a very close relation?
 

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Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
The Great Gumby (and probably others) - I found it dull because things just didn't hang together. Why were Amy and the-nice-American in the spooky old home anyway? Yes, that whole section looked great, but it was dull for me because it didn't fit - it felt as though it had been inserted at random. Too much happening at once can be as dull as too little. This espisode did not cohere, to me, and I am a long time fan. (Currently thinking about getting two kittens and calling them William and Patrick.)
 

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I was reading this thread while the Goons was on Radio 4 Extra. Apart from wanting to moan that they are dirty rotten swine, and River Song has fallen in the water, the disjointed narrative does seem to echo that. Without the jazz passages.

I find the nested flashbacks irritating. Very.

It seems an extraordinary mixture of far too detailed planning (I can imagine charts of each characters' time line) with "making it up as they go along", leading to the incoherence within each episode. And I couldn't understand what the alien said which was broadcast - too garbled.

The old children's home reminded me of something, which I can't quite recall. There's Amy's old home and its invisible alien which has been rewritten out of her life, I suppose. But it seems to be from something totally different. The nearest I can get is a film based on what happened to Dorothy after Oz, which involved a mental hospital.

Penny

[ 01. May 2011, 07:45: Message edited by: Penny S ]
 

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Posted by Dormouse (# 5954) on :
 
Now, I willingly admit that I'm the first to miss vital points, BUT from the beginning I was confused... Amy running for her life was "6 months later" - so what had happened in the intervening 6 months? Why were all four in different places? Did they know that Canton Thing was a goody or a baddy? Did they pretend to die when he shot them or not? Were the other Men In Suits with Canton goodies or baddies? When River Song fell out of the high rise did she know the Tardis was going to pick her up? If she didn't why was she calmly drying her hair instead of gabbling like a surprised monkey when we next saw her? Why WAS she in a half constructed high rise building in an evening dress? etc etc.
I was so full of questions that I sort of lost the plot at the beginning!
I enjoyed the episode, but I do seem to find myself being more critical...Or maybe there's more to be critical about?

We watched Confidential afterwards which I felt was a bit self congratulatory. And I find Karen Gillan just as irritating as Amy Pond. There seems to be little to choose between them.
 

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Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :
 
I am glad that when Nixon made an appearance and said "I am President Nixon" nobody said "I know who you are"
 

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Posted by mrs whibley (# 4798) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Currently thinking about getting two kittens and calling them William and Patrick.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dormouse:
When River Song fell out of the high rise did she know the Tardis was going to pick her up? If she didn't why was she calmly drying her hair instead of gabbling like a surprised monkey when we next saw her? Why WAS she in a half constructed high rise building in an evening dress? etc etc.

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quote:

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Originally posted by mrs whibley:

quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Currently thinking about getting two kittens and calling them William and Patrick.

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My first thought was that you were so upset you were going to name them after Messrs Shatner and Stewart!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Armin:

quote:

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Originally posted by mrs whibley:

quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Currently thinking about getting two kittens and calling them William and Patrick.

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My first thought was that you were so upset you were going to name them after Messrs Shatner and Stewart!

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Please. They are rather late in the day for my tastes.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Penny S:
I rewatched it - and didn't gain much from the exercise, except that the Dr had a brief flash of memory of Amelia's house with the snakey monster which kept from sight. (Which would not have been seen by anyone who blinked at that moment.)

And I suspect the Lodger reference is not just re-use of sets.

Now was the Silence in existence at all in the previous run of the universe, or is it a new creation in this version?

Penny

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jahlove:
The snakey things (and other big-tooth types from that series) were all manifestations of some inmate from a pan-galactic prison, iirc. We know River has been/will be imprisoned but unsure of her crime so I guess it may have to do with that.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:
Re the little girl, it occurred to me she might be Captain Jack's. He got an overdose of Time Lord power through Rose and the Eye of Harmony so maybe this is a possibility? Or maybe she's something to do with The Master.

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quote:

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Originally posted by tessaB:
I like Rory and would hate Amy to cheat on him with the Doctor.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jahlove:
The snakey things (and other big-tooth types from that series) were all manifestations of some inmate from a pan-galactic prison, iirc. We know River has been/will be imprisoned but unsure of her crime so I guess it may have to do with that.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Hedgehog:
Or something to do with the Doctor's daughter who presumably is still wandering the Universe.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
...maybe the series needs a 3 year hiatus...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Penny S:

The old children's home reminded me of something, which I can't quite recall. There's Amy's old home and its invisible alien which has been rewritten out of her life, I suppose. But it seems to be from something totally different. The nearest I can get is a film based on what happened to Dorothy after Oz, which involved a mental hospital.

---

quote:

---

Funny clone though. Double X instead of XY. Unless Time Lords have a different set up.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Story arcs were rarely used in the old show - the Key to Time being the main exception, with shorter arcs being a bit more common, such as the E-space stories and the crew's separation from the TARDIS between Ark in Space and Revenge of the Cybermen.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rogue:
I saw the similarity and it was confirmed on Confidential that the spaceship was the same as the one in The Lodger. They didn't really explain it and perhaps it was just the ancient Who tradition of re-using sets.

---

quote:

---

I don't think River Song jumped off the skyscraper expecting rescue in any particular way but she saw it as the only way to go to escape. She did do something similar in a previous story when she jumped off a space ship to be picked up by the Tardis.

---

• BBC4 are showing The Hand of Fear on the 9th&10th May - presumably a tribute to Elisabeth Sladen.
• The episode after next (no 4 of the current series) has an intriguing title, which I won't give away, and is written by Neil Gaiman.

quote:

---

Originally posted by itokro:
I get the feeling she does that sort of thing a lot, knowing the Doctor will always be there to pick her up. And while I like River generally, this reliance on the Doctor to get her out of trouble grates a little.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hedgehog:
Strictly speaking, because she thinks that she is meeting the Doctor in reverse chronological order, she knows that, until the Doctor meets her for the first time, she must survive.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hedgehog:
Strictly speaking, because she thinks that she is meeting the Doctor in reverse chronological order, she knows that, until the Doctor meets her for the first time, she must survive.

---

In universe, of course, time can be changed.

Out of universe, I don't think Moffat has got straight in his head how River and the Doctor are interacting. River has said at least once now that they're going in reverse directions. If they were just going in reverse directions, there would be no need for their diaries because they'd just know that anything they remembered hadn't happened to the other person. Also, River Song would have realised she was dealing with future Doctor, and therefore something was wrong, when the future Doctor shared some of the same memories.

---

I'm hoping (really, really hoping) that the "opposite directions" thing was intended as a simplification for the younger audience, to explain why the relationship's so asymmetrical and generally screwed up. My reaction when she said it was the same as you, but on rewatching it, I could see that it might be a crude generalisation. I don't think Moffat has a strong grasp of how this is all meant to fit together, but I'm not sure that this proves it.
 

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Posted by Rev per Minute (# 69) on :
 
Ken, I bow to your awesome knowledge - see? But then I am a mere whippersnapper who only goes back to Pertwee and 'The Three Doctors'.

I think that I remember the series moving to midweek (twice a week) when Davison took over, but his final season - and the following (delayed) season of Baker the Lesser - was back on Saturday evenings. McCoy's series were then on in midweek about 7.00 pm (dragging the depths of my memory for my student days with a B&W portable TV).

There is only one canonical time for Doctor Who, and that is on Saturday evenings right after Grandstand. Sadly, having cancelled Grandstand, it now follows something inane like Total Wipeout...
 

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Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
In universe, of course, time can be changed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by wilson:
I was just checking on upcoming TV on my media centre's EPG when I spotted a couple of interesting things:

• BBC4 are showing The Hand of Fear on the 9th&10th May - presumably a tribute to Elisabeth Sladen.
• The episode after next (no 4 of the current series) has an intriguing title, which I won't give away, and is written by Neil Gaiman.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Exegesis Fairy:
Amy Pond has grown on me. Because even though she's a Black Hole Sue she's somehow less annoying when compared to the nails-on-a-blackboard perfection of River Song.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Exegesis Fairy:
Hooray, Ariel! Being opinionated on the Interwebs is fun!

Though everyone else seems to find Amy the most annoying. She is in every episode of this season and the last one, so it's not so surprising.

---

quote:

---

But there is yet more - Remembrance, which is one of the all-time great Who stories, is also in indirect sequel to (or tribute to) An Unearthly Child, the first ever Dr Who, broadcast twenty-five years earlier,

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by M.:
Originally posted by Ken:

quote:

---

But there is yet more - Remembrance, which is one of the all-time great Who stories, is also in indirect sequel to (or tribute to) An Unearthly Child, the first ever Dr Who, broadcast twenty-five years earlier,

---

This made me & Macarius go back and watch Remembrance, which I agree is great. But I'd forgotten that I find Ace even more annoying than Amy!

M.

---

I was so intrigued by good things said of 'Remembrance' that I ordered it off Amazon for about a fiver - it plopped through the letterbox this morning !

I don't recall disliking Ace much at the time, but Peri - ! She can be tied to Amy and drowned in the same pond, and good riddance.

eta: I like River a lot. Alex seems a lovely person in real life, whereas Karen Gillan (in Confidential, anyway) is as irritating as her screen self.

[ 07. May 2011, 11:20: Message edited by: Pine Marten ]
 

---

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by M.:
This made me & Macarius go back and watch Remembrance, which I agree is great. But I'd forgotten that I find Ace even more annoying than Amy!

---

Hah! Ace is the best companion ever. If ane think otherwise I discard him uterly.

Peri was annoying. Mel was even more annoying. I'm told that the Seventh Doctor with Mel was bit disposable, but the Seventh Doctor with Ace was great. (Although even then the scripts were a bit variable.)
 

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Posted by M. (# 3291) on :
 
Eheu! Thus am I utterly discarded.

But I still find Ace annoying (I'm not that keen on Peri, Mel or Adric either. I don't like many people much, do I?)

I do like River, though. I would love to be that ballsy.

M.
 

---

Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on :
 
my fav quote:

Captain: I'm confused.

Doctor: It's a big club, we should get t-shirts made.


furthermore, for those of you cross at the TARDIS' reliability, it disappeared this week for no disernable reason. Happier now?
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
Well that was a lot better than last week!
 

---

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

Peri was annoying. Mel was even more annoying. I'm told that the Seventh Doctor with Mel was bit disposable, but the Seventh Doctor with Ace was great. (Although even then the scripts were a bit variable.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
Well that was a lot better than last week!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by busyknitter:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
Well that was a lot better than last week!

---

I thought it was worse, if anything.

My problem is I just don't seem to care about any of the current characters. Except River, in fact I'm only hanging on to find out who that particular plotline turns out.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by busyknitter:
I thought it was worse, if anything.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
Perhaps I'm asking too much. I'm hoping next week will be better.

---

It's written by the inimitable Neil Gaiman, so it should be!
 

---

Posted by Emma Louise (# 3571) on :
 
I thought it was really really boring.
 

---

Posted by Dormouse (# 5954) on :
 
I enjoyed it - maybe I prefer the simpler stories where I don't need to make connections with things I've either forgotten or didn't notice in other episodes! I liked the way we discovered the Siren wasn't a real "baddie" but like whoever, I wondered why the three of them didn't end up in hospital beds too.

And I also agree with whoever else it was who said that Karen Gillan is as annoying as Amy Pond. Quite frankly I can't see much difference between them... I'm not convinced KG is acting. She just seems to be herself. I've liked all the modern companions (although Mooning-After-the-Doctor-Rose got a tad tedious at times) but KG gets on my nerves. Actually, thinking about it, when she and Matt Smith get together on Confidential it's like a couple of giggling schoolchildren. I feel a bit sorry for Arthur Whoosit, who seems a little more sensible.

And while I quite like Matt Smith, I preferred the other two modern Doctors much, much more.

But, generally, despite my moans I'm always happy to watch Doctor Who on a Saturday evening.
 

---

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
On an overall scale, yes, pretty dull. On a Matt Smith scale, a decent episode. At least it was more or less self contained, apart from the silly woman behind the sliding door slot again. (And is it just my depraved imagination, or did anyone else wonder what a pirate crew of 5 men and 1 boy would get up to, wandering the universe with no hope of ever seeing a human female again?)
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
(And is it just my depraved imagination, or did anyone else wonder what a pirate crew of 5 men and 1 boy would get up to, wandering the universe with no hope of ever seeing a human female again?)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Macrina:
I am afraid I was utterly distracted by the terrible CPR. TERRIBLE! Which probably indicates I was slightly turned off by the plot/resolution of the episode which seemed to lack something.

---

Yes! It was appalling - and after Rory told Amy it had to be her because she would never give up.. How long did she carry on her ridiculous attempt? 30 seconds?

Didn't spoil it for me though - loved the rest of it.
 

---

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :
 


Tubbs
 

---

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
(And is it just my depraved imagination, or did anyone else wonder what a pirate crew of 5 men and 1 boy would get up to, wandering the universe with no hope of ever seeing a human female again?)

---

The pirates obviously had. Or the scriptwriters. They were going to make Rory and the Doctor walk the plank but keep Amy.

And the Doctor's universe seems to contain a remarkably large number of humans - as well as creatures that look vaguely human but aren't - like the Doctor.

Also one imagines that they would work on persuading the automated medical cabinet that some quirks of human physiology require the virtual doctor to attend to them in certain ways that the dead crew might have not needed. For the good of their health.

At least this one HAD a plot, and one that mostly obeyed the Iron Laws of Plot. The double-parter just didn't. It was deus ex machina all the way down.

[ 09. May 2011, 14:37: Message edited by: ken ]
 

---

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
At the risk of sounding like a complete toady, thanks Tubbs for re-opening this. Some virtual H&As' Day chocs on their way.

I enjoyed this one much more than the two-part opener: it had a followable plot, bit of action, good characters, palpable threat, SFX, a happy ending and only one intrusion by the season story arc. Call me two-dimensional but that's the sort of thing I like.
 

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Posted by Avila (# 15541) on :
 
BBC 4's Classic Who is not available on iplayer... and I missed tonights first part!!


 

---

Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :
 
The five men and a boy were originally a lot more men (The Doctor commented on this when he arrived) but they had been taken by the siren. I don't know how the boy escaped detection for so long with that cough and I don't know how the captain immediately recognised his son who he hadn't seen for so long.

I love plot holes which somehow make Doctor Who whereas in other programmes they detract. Is this because the program has a long history of them? Or is it because there is always a possibility that they get resolved later in the series? Or perhaps it's because fans can speculate on how they could be resolved and this usually brings up some pretty imaginative theories. Or maybe because we can look clever when we are the first to spot them

As someone has already said this was more of a children's pirate story because I understand that real pirates were far more ruthless than the romantic images that this story was based on and mutiny didn't happen because the captain would reward any non-loyal thoughts in the crew with death.

The CPR session at the end seemed unreal and it wasn't a surprise that Rory survived.

Did I enjoy it? Dr Who would have to be really awful for me to be disappointed so I guess I did. I liked having a break from the story arc (mostly) but there certainly have been better.
 

---

Posted by dorothea (# 4398) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
Perhaps I'm asking too much. I'm hoping next week will be better.
(From Itokro)

It's written by the inimitable Neil Gaiman, so it should be!

---

Oooh!

J
 

---

Posted by itokro (# 16135) on :
 
Question - how many times has Rory died, nearly-died, or appeared to be dead now? I'm counting 5 (he drowned this week, got shot by Canton last week, appeared to have died in the Blitz when he was a plastic centurion, got shot by Silurians AND erased from history, and got killed by those creepy eyestalks inside the old people in the dream episode). The suspense doesn't really work when you're so used to him coming back.
 

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Posted by The Revolutionist (# 4578) on :
 
The Curse of the Dull Plot - sorry, Black Spot - wasn't a patch on the opening two-parter.

It had all the right ingredients, but didn't quite work for me. I think the main problem was that the pirates weren't interesting or piratey enough, so I didn't care about them. Pirates should be devious, dashing and double-crossing, not moping about whether they're a good dad. If they'd had a bit more personality and had been more suspicious of the Doctor and co it might have held my interest.

By the way, my podcast commentary for the first episode is now online over at Impossible Podcasts. You can also find it on iTunes by searching for it.
 

---

Posted by art dunce (# 9258) on :
 
Rory is actually Kenny
 

---

Posted by tessaB (# 8533) on :
 
Oh My God, they've killed Rory

 

---

Posted by M. (# 3291) on :
 
I'm beginning to think it all must be, hideously, some sort of dream. It's just not quite right,is it? The Doctor seems just too scatty - and would he abandon the Tardis? The crown didn't look like a real crown to me. Others have pointed out that the kiss of life was all wrong. When did Amy learn to fight with a cutlass? And eye-patch lady, of course.

I do hope it's more imaginative than that! I'm sure it must be. Mustn't it?

TANGENT - has anyone else been watching The Hand of Fear? I've never seen this one before. I was laughing at Sara-Jane's dungarees until I remembered a pair of pink candy-striped dungarees not unlike them that I had and wore with a matching anorak-style jacket...

M.

[ 11. May 2011, 19:57: Message edited by: M. ]
 

---

Posted by St Everild (# 3626) on :
 
Boring. I couldn't stay awakezzzzzzzzzzzz
 

---

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by M.:
The Doctor seems just too scatty - and would he abandon the Tardis? The crown didn't look like a real crown to me. Others have pointed out that the kiss of life was all wrong. When did Amy learn to fight with a cutlass? And eye-patch lady, of course.

---

quote:

---

TANGENT - has anyone else been watching The Hand of Fear?

---

quote:

---

At least this one HAD a plot, and one that mostly obeyed the Iron Laws of Plot. The double-parter just didn't. It was deus ex machina all the way down.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pyx_e:
This thread is like reading the Hobbit and complaining it aint War and Peace.

---

quote:

---

Agree re CPR. We were shouting 'get a seal on his nose!'

Plus, CPR doesn't work like that, but it does on telly, so hey...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Still loving it and considering not reading this thread anymore, honest to god guys it's a kids show. This thread is like reading the Hobbit and complaining it aint War and Peace.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
Comparing with "The Hand of Fear" was interesting. 4 episodes to tell a story which would now be told in one.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Real CPR is violent. (And hardly ever works anyway.)

---

And... I can't believe the TARDIS doesn't have a defibrillator. The contemporary sonic screwdriver should be able to manage that much too, surely.

[ 12. May 2011, 16:04: Message edited by: GreyFace ]
 

---

Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :
 
Can a Pond turn into a River?
 

---

Posted by Snags (# 15351) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
I read an online review suggesting that one of the Doctor's off-hand comments might be half-human level controversial, but I didn't spot anything?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I really enjoyed The Curse of the Black Spot. A nice, unassuming, more or less stand-alone story. True, I think the plot had more holes than half a ton of Swiss cheese, but it was fun.

I get the impression (mostly from other websites) that the like/dislike battle lines are being drawn up between those who like long story arcs, and those who like continuity-light stories like this one.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jahlove:
Can a Pond turn into a River?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
I don't remember seeing the woman with the eyepatch in the last episode. I must have blinked and missed it.

---

It was when they were all holed up sleeping in the cabin that Amy saw her.
 

---

Posted by Roseofsharon (# 9657) on :
 
I saw her in last week's, but must have blinked at the vital moment in the previous ones, as I hadn't seen her before.
 

---

Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :
 
DON'T BLINK!!!
 

---

Posted by M. (# 3291) on :
 
Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

---

It was when they were all holed up sleeping in the cabin that Amy saw her.

---

quote:

---

And, despite all my grumbles, it's still the best thing on telly by far and I love it really.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Roseofsharon:
I saw her in last week's, but must have blinked at the vital moment in the previous ones, as I hadn't seen her before.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mrs whibley:
I disagree.
I think the series is perfectly enjoyable if you miss the added details and the subtle clues. I do, most of the time!
In a way, those who miss these bits experience the adventures more in the way that the central characters do (to whom, one supposes, the future is a closed book and every twist is a total surprise). The point to me is not that the programmes demand total attention, but that they reward it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
They know, in their heart of hearts, it isn't terribly good at the moment but their loyalty prevents them from admitting that, maybe even to themsleves.

---

quote:

---

Robert Armin posted: Agreed. And, as a long term fan, I can cope with the series having downs as well as ups. However, I do feel worried about the children. There are several kids I know who are great fans, but only of the new series, of course. They are used to Who being brilliant and these days look vaugely puzzled or hurt if I chat to them. They know, in their heart of hearts, it isn't terribly good at the moment but their loyalty prevents them from admitting that, maybe even to themsleves. Let's hope Gaiman gives us something we can all cheer up about.

---

My ten year old son is the biggest fan in the world and I can second this. Between going on about Amy being pregnant to a whole episode where they couldn't manage proper pirates and the Doctor seeming worthless my son has been quietly disappointed as well. He has started re-watching past seasons on DVD. He Is looking forward to tonight's episode and since he loves Neil Gaiman's writing and watched an interview where he said that he wrote the episode for the fans his hope has been buoyed. The whole thing is made more annoying by the fact that here in the states BBC runs an intro where the show starts with an explanation that it's about Amy Pond and her imaginary friend, "the Doctor" which makes my son ( who started watching while we lived in Ireland) yell NO it's not!
 

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Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :
 
Fantastic!

P
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
Dark, interesting, compelling.

More please.
 

---

Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :
 
Really??? Apart from the concept of the TARDIS manifesting as a flesh'n'blood person, I found that a total crock. I expected more - a LOT more, from Gaiman and am tempted to Write In And Complain

Ah, well, it'll make Eurovision look like High Art.
 

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Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :
 
My view: brilliant
 

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Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :
 
And they've just told us on Confidential that the console that the Doctor and the Tardis built was designed by a Blue Peter competition winner
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
So far this season each episode has been better than the one before. Keep it up!

Also I was reminded of "I have no mouth and I must scream" when we met Auntie and Uncle and House - and then a few scenes later...
 

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Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
I was worried about this episode, as normally when I hope for great things I am disappointed. But not this time. That was great - atmospheric, moving, and self consistent. For the first time I found mysely warming to Smith - and even Pond. She couldn't smooch round the Doctor, and was much better as a result. (And Confidential was worth watching for once - lots of clips of previous Doctors with the Tardis, though I could have done without the big breakfast fry up.)
 

---

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
Also I was reminded of "I have no mouth and I must scream" when we met Auntie and Uncle and House - and then a few scenes later...

---

The Ellison story?
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
Incidentally, I noticed the Ood's eyes were green. I could be wrong but thought I remembered them in previous episodes as being red - if I'm right about this, it's probably how you spot a possessed Ood.
 

---

Posted by Macrina (# 8807) on :
 
Oooooh I liked that that was really good and original stuff. (Well I thought so not being an avid massive fan since the shows earlier incarnations) Nice job Who.
 

---

Posted by Avila (# 15541) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
Incidentally, I noticed the Ood's eyes were green. I could be wrong but thought I remembered them in previous episodes as being red - if I'm right about this, it's probably how you spot a possessed Ood.

---

I remember the red eyed as being bad. But that was from the point of view of the ood 'factory' bosses....
 

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Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
Yes generally impressed. The Dr not knowing what to do and finding this a novel experience was clever.

I quite liked the tardis incarnate helping the Dr - it was quite fun for a change. And they built a really odd tardis. Also seeing all sorts of other places of the tardis was always fun.

But no woman with an eyepatch. Hmm.
 

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Posted by Roseofsharon (# 9657) on :
 
That was much better.
I was beginning to despair of this series, I feel a bit more hopeful now.
 

---

Posted by The Exegesis Fairy (# 9588) on :
 
LOVE incarnate!TARDIS. She's lovely. Nicely atmospheric too. OK, I liked the earlier seasons better, but I did really enjoy this episode much more than the last few.

'You sexy thing!'

and

'What does it say?'
'Pull to open'
'And what do you do?'
[sheepish] 'Push?'
'EVERY TIME!'


 

---

Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :
 
So the Tardis thinks she/he/it stole the Doctor and the Doctor thinks he stole (borrowed) the Tardis. Is this the origin of the chicken vs egg scenario?
 

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Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on :
 
It was quite nice to have the subordinate characters have a relative lead for a change.
(particularly when she had to give a message to 'the pretty one' and the door mentioned above)
 

---

Posted by Twangist (# 16208) on :
 
"Bunkbeds are cool"

I love that I watched Dr Who as a kid with my Dad who watched it as a kid and now my kids watch it with me - that's (and BBC4 and specialist radio programs come to think of it) got to be what we pay the license fee for.
 

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Posted by tessaB (# 8533) on :
 
Doctor - She's the Tardis, and she's a woman!
Amy - Have you been wishing really hard?

Just brilliant.

Reminded me a bit of a sci-fi book I read about a house that people got sucked into through a box. Lot's of scary things in it that could kill you. Anyone know it? (It's probably just called The House and I can't even remember that!)
 

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Posted by art dunce (# 9258) on :
 
I enjoyed it and so did my kids. The only complaint was they wished there was less Amy and Rory running around and more Doctor and Idris.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Holy crap, this is scary. I now know the meaning of "hiding behind the sofa."
 

---

Posted by M. (# 3291) on :
 
Fantastic! It tied in with the old Doctors brilliantly*. Weird and wonderful. I loved the idea of Doctor and Tardis both thinking they stole (sorry, borrowed) the other, too.

M.

*But I have some trouble imagining William Hartnell saying 'You're the sexiest thing I've ever seen'.
 

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Posted by Athrawes (# 9594) on :
 
I'm now really looking forward to this episode, despite not liking the one Neil Gaimain story I've read. Shame I now have to wait a week to find out how the Tardis stole the Dr!
 

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Posted by M. (# 3291) on :
 
Ah, I'm sorry, I didn't mean to post spoilers.

M.
 

---

Posted by Athrawes (# 9594) on :
 
Don't worry about it - I don't mind the spoilers, which is why I read this thread, even though it's a week ahead of us down here. It's the sheer fun of it I enjoy, as well as seeing how they do what they do.
 

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Posted by Dormouse (# 5954) on :
 
I really, really loved it, and it had some great lines in it - most of which have already been posted.
I found Confidential interesting as the author read some of the script aloud - the descriptions were really poetic. I hadn't realised that scripts are written like this. Also, I felt that he (the author) was thrilled to see the sets & be part of it. And there wasn't much KG being arch and twee and stupid. So that was another bonus.
 

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Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
I've got the CDs of Gaiman reading his own Graveyard Book. He has a fantastic reading voice, and listening to him was an added bonus in Confidential.
 

---

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
The "stealing" thing goes back, I believe, to the very early stories, where the doctor does "borrow" a tardis - this one. I think this was why he always had problems controlling it.

The idea of the tardis being the one who did the stealing - or tempting - is just an interesting and fun twist, based on the sentience of the tardis that the new series has "discovered".
 

---

Posted by wilson (# 37) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
The idea of the tardis being the one who did the stealing - or tempting - is just an interesting and fun twist, based on the sentience of the tardis that the new series has "discovered".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Holy crap, this is scary. I now know the meaning of "hiding behind the sofa."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Suranne Jones's and Matt Smith's performances are the stuff of which Doctor Who legend is made.

---

quote:

---

The name Idris is a baby boy name. The name Idris comes from the Welsh origin. In Welsh The meaning of the name Idris is: Fiery lord.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
The "stealing" thing goes back, I believe, to the very early stories, where the doctor does "borrow" a tardis - this one. I think this was why he always had problems controlling it.

The idea of the tardis being the one who did the stealing - or tempting - is just an interesting and fun twist, based on the sentience of the tardis that the new series has "discovered".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Would that be the scene where Rory has been ... y'know ... *gulp* ... writing on the wall? Deeply unsettling, I thought.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by St Everild:
A Pond may be a pool of stagnant water, while a River is moving, dynamic water?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by art dunce:
The whole thing is made more annoying by the fact that here in the states BBC runs an intro where the show starts with an explanation that it's about Amy Pond and her imaginary friend, "the Doctor" which makes my son ( who started watching while we lived in Ireland) yell NO it's not!

---

She said something like "This is our story", right?

Someone else must have complained, because I was waiting for that line in the backstory montage and didn't hear it.
 

---

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by rufiki:
The only water in the forest is the river....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Taliesin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
The "stealing" thing goes back, I believe, to the very early stories, where the doctor does "borrow" a tardis - this one. I think this was why he always had problems controlling it.

The idea of the tardis being the one who did the stealing - or tempting - is just an interesting and fun twist, based on the sentience of the tardis that the new series has "discovered".

---

Traditionally, the TARDIS was unpredictable - the doctor nicked it from a place where broken/tempermental TARDIS' went to be fixed. He was always considered a rebel - a criminal? by the other time lords and that's why they marooned him on Earth for the whole of his 3rd incarnation.
Prior to that the TARDIS was operable, but couldn't navigate - the basis of all his adventures in the beginning was the idea that he never knew where he was going to end up.
Presumably whoever released him from Earth fixed the TARDIS too - I missed that series.

I loved yesterday's episode too, but missed large chunks and will have to watch the repeat later this week.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lots of Yay:
Possibly stupid question, but why couldn't the captain administer tv-CPR to the boy instead of just sitting there twiddling his thumbs all the way to the other side of the universe?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
... whether the captain could take him somewhere where his typhoid could be cured.

---

Assuming he still has an immune system, if he lives through his first month with typhoid he should recover fully. He might be dangerous to others though. Rory ought to know that, and the Doctor might as well.

My guess is that these pirates are being deposited in the Plot Bank for future withdrawl when an idea is needed - ideally in a year or two from now. Along with the Doctor's Daughter.
 

---

Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
I do find it interesting that these last two seasons Dr. Who seems to have discovered sexual passion. Where the Saint Rose and Martha arcs had a lot about unrequited love (the tin dog for Rose, Rose for the Doctor, Martha for the Doctor, Sarah Jane for the Doctor, Rose's mum for her husband, the Doctor for Madame Pompadour), this one has a lot about having a passionate love affair.

Through the eyes of a 10 year old, the bunk bed joke is hilarious. "Mummies and Daddies don't sleep in bunk beds, silly Doctor!" And the Doctor, who knows darn well what is going on there, is playing that tension, while recognizing in River Song his future of having such a passionate relationship, and discovering an intellectually passionate relationship with the Tardis (Amy's "Did you wish really hard?" line was priceless). If the physical representation had been able to stick around, they would have been snogging before Amy and Rory go to their bunk beds.

Which might be is what is annoying lots of people about Pond and River. Where prior companions have reacted on an emotional level with the Doctor, they react on a physical level to him - River want to do more then travel the world with him and hold hands - she wants to kiss him as they do it.

Amy loves Rory - physically and emotionally; if anything this last episode nailed that love the most with her utter despair at him being dead. (I almost shouted "Oh my God, they killed Rory!") All three of them know she is physically attracted to the Doctor but has chosen Rory. That's a different tension, and in my estimation a better one to watch then the Saint Rose and Martha tensions.

Unrequited love is too flat for me. I prefer passion. Which is why I like River Song. She gives a darn. She flies into things fast and hard and is just so darn good at what she does. I think a few people are annoyed at that amount of perfection; strange as its a physical representation of the Doctor's mental abilities. Which is why he gets on her nerves, and why I suspect she will get on his nerves as they grow closer together.


***

As for this episode, a good hour of fun. Typical Gaiman stuff about relationships and caring about people moving from hope to darkness to discovery that brings energy into fixing things, with a resigned "you made me destroy you" near the end followed by a familiar domestic discussion. Sounds like almost every single Sandman story arc. Enjoyable.

And, Rory is now definatly not the tin dog.
 

---

Posted by Twangist (# 16208) on :
 
Did anyone else find Uncle reminisant of Richard O'Brien's Riff Raff?
 

---

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twangist:
Did anyone else find Uncle reminisant of Richard O'Brien's Riff Raff?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Taliesin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
The "stealing" thing goes back, I believe, to the very early stories, where the doctor does "borrow" a tardis - this one. I think this was why he always had problems controlling it.

The idea of the tardis being the one who did the stealing - or tempting - is just an interesting and fun twist, based on the sentience of the tardis that the new series has "discovered".

---

Traditionally, the TARDIS was unpredictable - the doctor nicked it from a place where broken/tempermental TARDIS' went to be fixed. He was always considered a rebel - a criminal? by the other time lords and that's why they marooned him on Earth for the whole of his 3rd incarnation.
Prior to that the TARDIS was operable, but couldn't navigate - the basis of all his adventures in the beginning was the idea that he never knew where he was going to end up.
Presumably whoever released him from Earth fixed the TARDIS too - I missed that series.

---

I walk among masters and watch my step accordingly, but IIRC the Third Doctor was only marooned on Earth until all three of him were enlisted to help defeat Omega in order to save the Time Lords ('The Three Doctors', unsurprisingly). Handily, that happened around the 10th anniversary of the first episode

After that, Doctor Three was able to use the Tardis as before his forced regeneration, otherwise he couldn't have gone to the Planet of the Spiders where he was fatally injured so as to regenerate into the Fourth Doctor. Not sure if the Time Lords fixed the dodgy circuitry, though - we saw on 'Confidential' almost all the later incarnations complaining about the Tardis' unreliability.

During 'Confidential', Neil Gaiman said that incarnating the Tardis was 'the Doctor's dream come true - and that of almost every man watching'. I would say that any Earth-bound equivalent - my car or boat becoming a real person, especially a woman - would be a very short relationship in which I would be unlikely to survive!

PS Schroedinger's Cat - I can only assume that you are responsible for Amy's pregnancy, as she appears to be both pregnant and not pregnant at the same time?

[ 17. May 2011, 12:31: Message edited by: Rev per Minute ]
 

---

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
(Incidentally, I'm sure it's possible to read this story as a parable about incarnation, but also about John's assertion that "perfect love casts out fear". I'm just not quite sure how it hangs together yet ... it's not as clear as Dalek being a retelling of the story of the harrowing of Hell.)
 

---

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rev per Minute:
PS Schroedinger's Cat - I can only assume that you are responsible for Amy's pregnancy, as she appears to be both pregnant and not pregnant at the same time?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rev per Minute:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Taliesin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
The "stealing" thing goes back, I believe, to the very early stories, where the doctor does "borrow" a tardis - this one. I think this was why he always had problems controlling it.

The idea of the tardis being the one who did the stealing - or tempting - is just an interesting and fun twist, based on the sentience of the tardis that the new series has "discovered".

---

Traditionally, the TARDIS was unpredictable - the doctor nicked it from a place where broken/tempermental TARDIS' went to be fixed. He was always considered a rebel - a criminal? by the other time lords and that's why they marooned him on Earth for the whole of his 3rd incarnation.
Prior to that the TARDIS was operable, but couldn't navigate - the basis of all his adventures in the beginning was the idea that he never knew where he was going to end up.
Presumably whoever released him from Earth fixed the TARDIS too - I missed that series.

---

I walk among masters and watch my step accordingly, but IIRC the Third Doctor was only marooned on Earth until all three of him were enlisted to help defeat Omega in order to save the Time Lords ('The Three Doctors', unsurprisingly). Handily, that happened around the 10th anniversary of the first episode

After that, Doctor Three was able to use the Tardis as before his forced regeneration, otherwise he couldn't have gone to the Planet of the Spiders where he was fatally injured so as to regenerate into the Fourth Doctor. Not sure if the Time Lords fixed the dodgy circuitry, though - we saw on 'Confidential' almost all the later incarnations complaining about the Tardis' unreliability.

---

quote:

---

I walk among masters and watch my step accordingly, but IIRC the Third Doctor was only marooned on Earth until all three of him were enlisted to help defeat Omega in order to save the Time Lords ('The Three Doctors', unsurprisingly). Handily, that happened around the 10th anniversary of the first episode

---

well, I don't bloody know - I wasn't born when it happened on screen. I just read some books.
 

---

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
/pedant/

Technically, The Three Doctors was the opening story of the tenth season. Its broadcast date was actually quite close to the ninth "birthday".

-/pedant/ (Oh, who am I kidding? I've always got "pedant" switched on!)

One thing I do know a bit about is the so-called "chameleon circuit". Mainly because I rather like police boxes - beautiful design, don't you think? I was insanely happy when Moffat reinstated the TARDIS's white window frames last year. But the best variant on the design (none of which have been an exact copy of a Metropolitan police box) was in the Peter Cushing movies.

Anyhoo, back to the chameleon circuit. It got stuck while the TARDIS was spending some time in a London junkyard, though why the TARDIS though a significant piece of police "kit" would look inconspicuous in a junikyard has never been explained. When the TARDIS left the junkyard for prehistoric Earth, the Doctor was irritated and Susan was surprised that it hadn't changed.

After that, I don't think much was ever made of it, until the Fourth Doctor suspected he was being pursued by the Master, and decided that looking conspicuous might be a bad idea (Logopolis). His attempt to get the Logopolitans to fix it nearly resulted in the end of the Universe.

As Dafyd said, the Sixth Doctor, in one of his tedious manic upswings, fixed it and in Attack of the Cybermen the TARDIS appeared in several guises before settling back into the police box.

The Ninth Doctor said he just liked the police box.

There's always been something a bit odd about the Doctor's relationship with the TARDIS. Borrowed, stolen, invented ... many people suspect he's never told us the full story.
 

---

Posted by Rev per Minute (# 69) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
There's always been something a bit odd about the Doctor's relationship with the TARDIS. Borrowed, stolen, invented ... many people suspect he's never told us the full story.

---

Really??? You do surprise me!!

/Sarcasm off/

Oi, I said /Sarcasm off/!

Bloody Sarcasm circuit's stuck! Damn!
 

---

Posted by badger@thesett (# 16422) on :
 


I bow to your vastly superior knowledge
 

---

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hedgehog:

By the way, on the "TARDIS sentience" thing, that has been hinted at since at least the Fourth Doctor ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hedgehog:

By the way, on the "TARDIS sentience" thing, that has been hinted at since at least the Fourth Doctor ...

---

Since the third or fourth ever story, The Edge of Destruction back in 1964. NOt that I can remember it at all... but going by what it says ofn various websites, when things get weird inside the Tardis, Barbara speculates that the ship itself is trying to warn them of some danger. The Doctor pretends its only a machine, but in the end we know he knows it isn't.

I also have vague memories of the Tardis doing quite clever things to evade or respond to attack in various stories.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's Cat:
Wasn't there a suggestion that the Tardis has a sort of SEP field around it, which means that people tend not to notice it, unless they have their attention drawn to it, or it is impossible to miss.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rev per Minute:
Really??? You do surprise me!!

/Sarcasm off/

Oi, I said /Sarcasm off/!

Bloody Sarcasm circuit's stuck! Damn!

---

Quotes file!
 

---

Posted by Eigon (# 4917) on :
 
I think the Cardiff thing was just people - you know, you stick a blue box down in the middle of the square and people just go "Oh, it's a blue box" and walk on.
When I worked for the Metropolitan Police, we once had to track down a real police box and ask the people responsible for it to measure it exactly, so that a Doctor Who fan could build an exact replica (it was at Hendon Police College).
 

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Posted by Surfing Madness (# 11087) on :
 
If you put a badly painted Tardis or one serving coffee down in Glasgow it would pass as normal.
 

---

Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :
 
Would any of us particularly notice a Police Box if it weren't for the Tardis?
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
I think these days we probably might because they're no longer usual.

Poor old Doctor, having to make ends meet by selling coffee from the Tardis in between adventures...
 

---

Posted by The Great Gumby (# 10989) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
The "stealing" thing goes back, I believe, to the very early stories, where the doctor does "borrow" a tardis - this one. I think this was why he always had problems controlling it.

The idea of the tardis being the one who did the stealing - or tempting - is just an interesting and fun twist, based on the sentience of the tardis that the new series has "discovered".

---

Surely it was a knowing allusion to the cliché that men think they chose their wives/girlfriends/significant others because they made the first move, but women know they made the choice, the men were just too stupid to notice it. Especially given the episode's title.

I've been away for the last week, dying to get round to watching this episode, and I wasn't disappointed. The plot was good, but nothing compared to the dialogue and how the characters developed. The Amy and Rory relationship was handled perfectly, and will hopefully keep the anti-Pond brigade quiet for a while. If I was being super-picky, the resolution seemed slightly unsatisfactory, but this was high-quality stuff, and I'll be re-watching it before long.
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
OK - tonight's episode was a total nadir IMO. I lost interest halfway through and went off to do something else, came back and found the Doctor and his companions were still running frantically down dimly lit, acid-puddled corridors, panicking.

More of the same next Saturday? I may give that one a miss.
 

---

Posted by amber. (# 11142) on :
 
Agreed - that was (for me) just odd rather than enjoyable, I think.
 

---

Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :
 
yeah - but great quote

"I should warn you, I have very wide feet"


 

---

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
I've seen worse. It's not going to be an all-time great story on current showings, but it's not yet rubbish.
The cliffhanger was not exactly a surprise based on the foregoing. And if I had to tie up the plot in ten minutes from that cliffhanger I could easily. The real question is whether it has any long term effects, or whether they use it as a tearjerker at the end of the next episode.
 

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Posted by ecumaniac (# 376) on :
 
One of the things I really liked in the BBC 8th Doctor books is where the Tardises "evolved" into a form that looks like a human (or Gallifreyan, ok!) woman. So I was quite pleased when it turned up on the tv show

Next on my wishlist for TV crossover is Iris Wildthyme's TARDIS which looks like a London Routemaster and is sightly smaller on the inside.
 

---

Posted by The Great Gumby (# 10989) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
I've seen worse. It's not going to be an all-time great story on current showings, but it's not yet rubbish.
The cliffhanger was not exactly a surprise based on the foregoing. And if I had to tie up the plot in ten minutes from that cliffhanger I could easily. The real question is whether it has any long term effects, or whether they use it as a tearjerker at the end of the next episode.

---

Agreed about the cliffhanger. It was telegraphed a long way off, but I don't feel that was a huge problem. I'm not bothered about the final predictable reveal so much as the overall situation, which is building up nicely and raises some serious sci-fi issues. Yes, there are ways of resolving it all, but some are better than others, and there's plenty of room for exploring serious questions of identity and personhood before that.

A lot will depend on how it's tied up, but regardless, I like the idea, and the way the characters are reacting to the situation.
 

---

Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :
 
plus, one of the dopplery-dudes snuck out in a Snakey-Thing form at one point!
 

---

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
Yes, there are ways of resolving it all, but some are better than others, and there's plenty of room for exploring serious questions of identity and personhood before that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
And I loved the old monastry - does anyone know where it is?

---

If you watch Dr Who confidential they tell you about the locations, it's a mixture of about 5 different places.
 

---

Posted by Balaam (# 4543) on :
 
It wasn't bad, but it wasn't great either. I liked the smoking boots on their own, a nice throwback to an SF cliché.

The 'ganger in snake form reminds me of something I read years ago in a fantasy book, possibly Elric's wife in Moorcock's Stormbringer. But it was so long ago I cannot be sure.

As for the the Doctor's ganger, this could be on of the worst cliffhangers of all time, as it looks as if he returned to the cauldron of white gunk to deliberately make a ganger of himself. Next episode - Doctor's 'ganger saves the day unless the plot takes a very odd twist.

What I want to know is this: are there any 'gangers of Amy or Rory out there.
 

---

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
Its Caerphilly Castle externally, St Donat's Castle inside the courtyard, Cardiff Castle underground, some bits of Neath Abbey with the glass CGI's back in for pretty windows, and various rooms in all those places and in the studio for interiors. And most actors were playing two characters, who sometimes talked to each other. Must be a nightmare of organisation to shoot.

That story could easily have been a 1960s Dr Who (though the set couldn't!). A Base under Siege, Science that Goes Wrong, icky monsters who might not actually be that bad, uneasy balance between seriously scary situation and the Doctor playing the fool, quite a lot of running around screaming, not that much actual bloodshed (though the first scene must have caused more nightmares than just about any other programs in the revised series other than Blink & The Empty Child.)
 

---

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
I thought it was framing up to be a good episode, but has not quite made it yet. It may next week. The idea of a set of dopplegangers is good Moffat-type drama, and the questions of what makes personhood are interesting.

And Was anyone else reminded of Missie Elliot "Get Ur Freak On"? No - just me then.

Next week - lets see some quality resolution.
 

---

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
Liked it. Did I read too much but were there hints that the gangers might be proto-Autons or something ("your technology is only at its basic stage" )?
 

---

Posted by sophs (# 2296) on :
 
I thought Autons too. I didn't really enjoy the episode that much, but was rather excited at the thought of the Autons coming back.
 

---

Posted by badger@thesett (# 16422) on :
 
bit bemused that the Doctor so easily sided with the murderer who killed one of them, after he goes on about them having a heart etc... surely he should side with the ones being murdered or am I missing something?
 

---

Posted by M. (# 3291) on :
 
Not sure they can be Autons, as Autons are plastic. We know the gangers have hearts and seem to be in all respects truly human, just engineered humans.

The Doctor clearly knows more than he is saying (he obviously wanted Rory and Amy out of the way, then when he, Rory and Amy first arrived at the Monastery, I think he mentioned 'almost people' before they actually appeared).

The gangers seem to go back and forth between looking exactly like their humans and looking melty, so you might not be able to tell real Doctor from ganger one all the time.

M.
 

---

Posted by Rev per Minute (# 69) on :
 
The gangers' 'melty' faces are straight lifts from Odo in Deep Space Nine, although he could take on almost any shape. Overall, it felt just like last year's Silurians episode - cut off from the world (in a church/monastery), two sets of people/creatures trying to inhabit the same space, attempts at peaceful co-existence denied by one attacker. Only the ganger Doctor was different. Part 2 has some work to do if its not to fall into the 'pointless' category.
 

---

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rev per Minute:
... Overall, it felt just like last year's Silurians episode ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by M.:
Not sure they can be Autons, as Autons are plastic. We know the gangers have hearts and seem to be in all respects truly human, just engineered humans.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
Liked it. Did I read too much but were there hints that the gangers might be proto-Autons or something ("your technology is only at its basic stage" )?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rev per Minute:
The gangers' 'melty' faces are straight lifts from Odo in Deep Space Nine, although he could take on almost any shape.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rev per Minute:
... Overall, it felt just like last year's Silurians episode ...

---

It did, didn't it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
The great unanswered question in 45 years of Who is "Why do the Doctor, and all or most of the other Time Lords, look human when they aren't?"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
"Why do the Doctor, and all or most of the other Time Lords, look human when they aren't?"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
The Doctor suggested that it would take time for the Gangers to "set" for want of a better word (I think it was when he did the hot plate trick), so we may yet end up with entirely indistinguishable identical gangs (heh) facing off. He also seems to know far more than he's letting on - about the Flesh, what it becomes in the future, why they were there in the first place, Amy's Quantum Baby, and so on. And Rory's becoming more interesting and developed as a character by the week. I hope something isn't going to happen to him, because his constantly dying thing and the way he keeps being forgotten in subtle ways are... worrying.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
How many companions have been Nurses or Doctors? And how many of them have tried to save a hurt being?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
Ace

---

*Ahem*

That's

Ace


 

---

Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :
 
So now we have two Doctors and one got (will get?) killed in the first episode. The question is which Doctor will it be and does it matter which one because they are exactly the same?
 

---

Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :
 
Thinking back on my list of past doctor/nurse companions, I should point out that Liz Shaw was a doctor, too. I left her off the list because she was more a scientist-type doctor rather than medical.

However, last night it occurred to me that when she was introduced the Brig read off a long list of her degrees. Without going back and watching the episode, I can't swear that she did not have a medical degree as well.
 

---

Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :
 
The Doctor has a medical qualification as well. He studied under Lister in Edinburgh in the 19th century. This was revealed by Patrick Troughton's Doctor in the Cyberman adventure which took place on the Moon.
 

---

Posted by The Great Gumby (# 10989) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rogue:
So now we have two Doctors and one got (will get?) killed in the first episode. The question is which Doctor will it be and does it matter which one because they are exactly the same?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hedgehog:
So it seems like an inconsistent reaction from Rory. Which then makes me wonder--is that really Rory? After all, he had walked off on his own for a bit. Is there any reason to think that the Flesh didn't somehow copy him as well as the Doctor?Are we going to have Yet Another "Oh my God! They've killed Rory!" moment only to discover that he was a Flesh?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
In fact - here's a thought - could the "real" ones have been Gangers all along without knowing it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
In fact - here's a thought - could the "real" ones have been Gangers all along without knowing it?

---

If Philip K Dick or Theodore Sturgeon were the Dr Who scriptwriters that would be almost worth betting on!

Or maybe even Nigel Kneale - after all we are the Martians!

---

Well, let's see. I just watched it again, and the bit at the end with Rory and Jen looking for each other had two odd aspects. Jen heard Rory calling before we saw him leaving to look for her (continuity/editing error, or more significant? There isn't a Ganger Rory, surely?), and the Jen who was looking for him was being stalked by Ganger Jen. But the one Rory was talking to before, who's the only one I can imagine calling for him specifically, was definitely a Ganger, as she kept changing every time we saw her. So either there's some strange psychic connection between them, or there's more than one Ganger Jen. I still like that theory.

I also noticed that the Ganger who died in the acid at the start said his heart had stopped, just like the Doctor did later when the Ganger was zapped. Relevant, or not?
 

---

Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :
 
Ooh! I missed that! So the acid-bath Ganger said his heart had stopped, but he was still talking about it. This supports my suspicion that the Electrocuted Ganger is not dead--his heart has merely stopped and at some point he will pop back into activity.

As for the Rory/Jen thing, this is the problem. As you pointed out earlier, my sig line means that I can't rule out sloppy writing. I often find that I have this difficulty when watching shows like this: is an event suggesting a clever-tricky-brilliant plot twist, or is it just bad writing? I think Doctor Who has earned the right for me to assume that things that look like oversights to me are actually intentionally planned. So if Rory was calling Jen before he left to look for her, then there are two Rories (Rori?) and for the reasons I discussed earlier I bet the one that was with the Doctor et al. was the Ganger. There are also at least two Jens, although whether either one is the "real" Jen is open to question.

Oh, wow. Sudden thought: maybe the "real" Jen will turn out to be the villain of the piece, with everybody else being a Ganger. After all, wasn't she the only one whose "real" body was missing when everybody woke up? That would be a shock that sweet, sympathetic Jen (as a Ganger) turns out to be a baddie. Of course, that leaves open the question of how Ganger Jen could be so mentally different from Real Jen.

But if everybody else is a Ganger, why do we think that Gangers are the same as their Real counterparts? Maybe when a Ganger makes a Ganger they are identical, but when a Real person makes a Ganger they are different. If that is true, then Real Jen could be bad and Ganger Jen good. And that would mean that Ganger Doctor will be evil, along with Ganger Rory. Which would also explain why Ganger Rory didn't bother to try CPR on the Electrocuted Ganger! Dang! That is all starting to fit together!

Or not.
 

---

Posted by art dunce (# 9258) on :
 
I think one hint was Jen saying that she could remember the excruciating pain of continually being decommissioned. Maybe it's driven her mad.

[ 25. May 2011, 22:13: Message edited by: art dunce ]
 

---

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Michael Snow:


I haven't watched it since the guy with the long scarf...who was my favorite Dr

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by art dunce:
Anyway, speaking of great science fiction, don't forget that today is Towel day In honor of Douglas Adams.

---

Rats! Ratsratsrats. I forgot my towel today.

Sorry for the tangent. Back to Doctor Who.
 

---

Posted by art dunce (# 9258) on :
 
So wait, is this Ganger thing shaping up to be a combination of tomato in the mirror , expandable clone ,with perhaps a cloning gambit of some sort and the inevitable clones are people, too or even worse, and then John was a zombie thrown in? I hope that Moffat has something more original to offer us.
 

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Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
Did anyone else giggle in Confidential seeing them show off the piece of kit which duplicates a shot so they can do the ganger/real people shots? So ... it makes gangers then!
 

---

Posted by The Revolutionist (# 4578) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by art dunce:
So wait, is this Ganger thing shaping up to be a combination of tomato in the mirror , expandable clone ,with perhaps a cloning gambit of some sort and the inevitable clones are people, too or even worse, and then John was a zombie thrown in? I hope that Moffat has something more original to offer us.

---

quote:

---

The Revolutionist posted:Spotting "tropes" can be fun, but identifying common elements often ignores all the things that actually matter about a story, such as character, tone and atmosphere. Originality comes from how you use existing ideas, the ways you combine them, the particular flavour you give to them. Pointing out tropes might look clever, but it's not really much of a criticism in and of itself.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
Jen heard Rory calling before we saw him leaving to look for her (continuity/editing error, or more significant? There isn't a Ganger Rory, surely?), and the Jen who was looking for him was being stalked by Ganger Jen.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
As an ardent avoider of spoilers, I find myself lacking a rather basic piece of information about the current season - how many episodes are left? Is tomorrow the last, or next week?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
As an ardent avoider of spoilers, I find myself lacking a rather basic piece of information about the current season - how many episodes are left? Is tomorrow the last, or next week?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by art dunce:
I guess some of the things eye patch lady said

---

quote:

---

Ariel posted: Said? She speaks?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Avila:
The Doctor is anticipating something - enough to suggest dropping the others off for fish and chips. Then when they arrive he says here it is as if familiar, enough for Amy to point out 'what do you mean we came here by accident'... Hmm...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
I noticed on rewatching that before the storm the Doctor leaves Amy and Rory in one control room. When Amy and Rory wake up after the storm they're lying by the ganger-making vat, which I'm pretty sure was a different room. And how did they get knocked out? So unless there was a continuity error, something happened that's not been explained, and the most likely something is that we're looking at ganger Amy and Rory.
....
Also they'd be the only two gangers that have managed to stay stably human-looking for anything like that length of time. Rory's been unobserved for a lot of the time, but Amy's been continuously in company.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Avila:
Later just before heading up to the weather vane he makes a comment about needing to get there before all hell breaks loose, then pauses to say 'I never thought I'd get to say that again' (or something similar)

---

Ah, that - IIRC I think what he said was, "I'd better get there before the cockerel crows or all hell will break loose" which was something that immediately reminded me, for some reason, of Peter denying Jesus, and then of the old belief that the creatures of the night must be back in their places/graves/mounds before the cock crows. Probably neither are related to whatever the Doctor was referring to, but either way, it was the intriguing bit of the episode.
 

---

Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :
 
So Peter was possibly the Doctor?

I have noticed before that one significant figure the Doctor has never met is Jesus. Do you suppose he will?
 

---

Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rogue:
So Peter was possibly the Doctor?

I have noticed before that one significant figure the Doctor has never met is Jesus. Do you suppose he will?

---

I don't think they'd be able to get that right, (or indeed with mere mortals like Mohammed or the Buddha).
Even if they specifically targeted just me, I think there'd still be an overlap between making X too good, and not enough.
Should the lord of Time learn from X, or teach X?
Does X know about the Timelords?

After all these issues even arose with someone as mundane as Shakespeare.
 

---

Posted by Avila (# 15541) on :
 
So the Doctor did plan his trip to the flesh place.

Love the swap over for bringing out prejudice bias. Or does the ending change the effect of that affiliation??

And it looks like one cliff hanger will resolve this half series, but what are the implications of secrets told?
 

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Posted by Balaam (# 4543) on :
 
"Reverse the polarity of the neutron flow" - nice to hear that phrase as the unstable flesh Doctor couldn't work out which regeneration he was. Son who it too young to remember the third doctor didn't know why I was laughing.

I also liked the two Doctors talking to himself. As if one wasn't arrogant enough, nice use of humour to dispel the tension.

Ironically it was reverse the polarity (or reverse the Doctors) which was the key to the episode.
 

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Posted by The Revolutionist (# 4578) on :
 
Wow... the ending is going to dominate discussion, no doubt! Great twist... I'd heard the episode ended on a cliffhanger, but hadn't guessed that.

The main part of the episode was pretty good too. The two Doctors were fun, and it cranked up the action nicely from last week. We'll have a review up on the Impossible Podcasts blog ASAP.

One quibble about something towards the end. Spoilers...
.
.
.
.
.
.
Why couldn't the real Doctor have held the door with Rory while everyone else got into the TARDIS, and disintegrated the Flesh, and then ran into the TARDIS? If they'd not spent so much time chattering away, they'd have had time to do so before the place exploded!
.
.
.
.
.
Spoilers above!
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
Well, that was boring. Ending in Amy's never really having been there/so it was all only a dream sequence and waking up to find herself pregnant. Will she give birth to an alien?

Roll on next week, it can only be better.
 

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Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
So when Amy and Rory get together they'll be able to compare notes on remembering being artificial.

At quite what point did original Cleaves change her mind about the gangers being real? When the one of them tried to save his duplicate's life?

I note that Eleven was getting to Seven levels of deviousness in this episode.

It wasn't a dream sequence. Original Amy was hooked up to ganger-Amy, so presumably she remembers everything ganger-Amy did.

[ 28. May 2011, 20:31: Message edited by: Dafyd ]
 

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Posted by rufiki (# 11165) on :
 
I think that waking up and finding that you are "about to pop" is a terrifying idea.
 

---

Posted by wilson (# 37) on :
 
Meh!
 

---

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
So Amy has not been Amy since the Silence kidnapped her, but has been trapped somewhere horrible, incubating, but in communication with her active ganger. The ganger Dr knows what is going to happen, hence the advice about pushing. But why does the non-ganger Dr terminate the ganger Amy, after all that stuff about treating them like people? (Or, indeed, ganger Jennifer 2 terminate ganger Jennifer 1? Or does everyone go melty?)

Interesting that once the doppel is dropped, the ganger part of the word means something like "goer" with the meaning of a being which goes in someone's place. Which is what they do. (Like the ushabti, or answerers, in Egyptian tombs.)


Penny
 

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Posted by Avila (# 15541) on :
 
But Amy saw eyepatch woman looking in during the silence episode 2, so was she replaced between the spaceship and the 3 months later chasing? Or having seen confidential and the trailers could it be before that? Before the Doctor's death??
 

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Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :
 
hopefully, Pond will die of post-partum complications - her and her ganger (and any others out there in the multiverse) preferably.
 

---

Posted by art dunce (# 9258) on :
 
Okay, just watched a downloaded version since BBC American chose not to broadcast part two this week and in the words of my son, the biggest WHO fan in the universe....
" ewww I thought this was a kid's show".

He wondered who put the baby In Amy against her will and thought that was scary and mean.

I suspected it was coming but kinda hoped I was wrong.
 

---

Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Avila:

Later just before heading up to the weather vane he makes a comment about needing to get there before all hell breaks loose, then pauses to say 'I never thought I'd get to say that again'
(or something similar)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by art dunce:
Also if the shoe change was real then Amy has told the Doctor that she had witnessed his death.

---

Indeed -- which the silents told her to do early on.

Carys
 

---

Posted by GeordieDownSouth (# 4100) on :
 
I'm enjoying this series, though I'm going to have to re-watch that last episode to get to grips with it.

I did notice a couple of clangers. The Flesh is meant to be a military secret (though a badly kept one) but in this episode we learn there's 10 million gangers in India? Bad proof reading? And there was a scene with the two doctors* and (I think) Amy which had the look of a later filmed pickup as all the other characters in the room had vanished.

I've now got no idea how this is going to play out, but to add to the discusion, is it significant that Rory doesn't seem to have a surname? They call him Rory Pond which is more of a joke, but has he ever been given a surname? It was significant last series that Amy didn't have any parents hanging around.

And my bid is that the "good man" is Rory, not the Doctor. Losing Amy will spur him into action.

Anyway, I've not posted here for about 5 years! Good to see this thread is still going. Hello again


*Now that's a classic episode worth avoiding. A bored Sontaron, and the 2nd doctor has a very good lunch.
 

---

Posted by Balaam (# 4543) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by GeordieDownSouth:
is it significant that Rory doesn't seem to have a surname? They call him Rory Pond which is more of a joke, but has he ever been given a surname?

---

Rory Williams.
 

---

Posted by GeordieDownSouth (# 4100) on :
 
Oh yeh, now I remember

I have no theories.
 

---

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Avila:
But Amy saw eyepatch woman looking in during the silence episode 2, so was she replaced between the spaceship and the 3 months later chasing?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
Ganger-Jennifer One was I think not quite all there, which was what made her happy to sacrifice another ganger in the cause of ganger rights. (She didn't want to be human, which would be why she was able to reshape herself when the other gangers were stabilising as humans.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eigon:
As I understand it, the gangers are aware of their originals - so the Flesh Amy has been on the Tardis for the best part of nine months and never mentioned "By the way, there's another Amy out there who's pregnant and held captive - is there anything we can do about that?"
It's all about trust, and she hasn't been straight with them all that time.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
Would that be because the Originals knew what was going on.
If Amy got drugged and then woke up (with most of) her perceptions from the gangers pov, how would she know?

---

I agree with Jay-Emm. There's nothing to suggest that the gangers had any consciousness of being distinct from the originals until the originals disengaged or before the power surge.

As confirmation, Amy didn't know what was going on when she saw the midwife looking through the window. If she'd known she was a ganger she'd have known that she was seeing something that her original was seeing.
 

---

Posted by art dunce (# 9258) on :
 
Thinking back to the The Sontaran Stratagem when they made a copy of Martha the Doctor immediately recognized that she was not human by her smell. He also knew that they needed to keep her alive somewhere to support the copy. If the Doctor knew that Amy was a ganger this whole time then why all of the adventures and running around and wasting time? And considering the care he's always shown copies (that episode and New Earth) I thought it seemed out of character for him to destroy Amy's ganger like he did.
 

---

Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :
 
Was she actually a ganger? Or was she some other kind of duplicate?
 

---

Posted by GreyFace (# 4682) on :
 
Isn't it the case that in Who-lore, the technology needed to make something like the Flesh would be child's play compared to the ability to maintain the Original-Ganger link not only time but also when the Ganger was outside the Universe, as in The Doctor's Wife?

This isn't random creepy Alien or twenty-second century human engineering. It's Time Lord level, the difference between the Daleks being rubbish half-scary dustbins and creatures that could fight Gallifrey and hold their own. Or, it's a writing oversight.

Welcome back, GDS.
 

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Posted by GreyFace (# 4682) on :
 
Not only across time. Obviously. Doh.
 

---

Posted by Dormouse (# 5954) on :
 
I can't keep up with all the theorising...I just enjoy each show for what it is and hope I'm reminded of the vital bits when it matters...

But, oh! I watched Confidential last night (we'd recorded it) and thought it was dire! There were some short interesting bits, but mostly it seemed to consist of the three main actors wittering on about what Christmas presents they'd got (and we want to know this why?) and an overlong piece about whether Matt Smith and Annoying KG believe in ghosts (conclusion: they don't really know) It was almost a complete waste of time. Did anyone else see it? Am I being overly critical?
 

---

Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :
 
No, Dormouse, you're not - I found it very irritating too. The 15-minute version on after the Sunday night repeat episode is better. Short, sharp and to the point.

And I have no coherent theories about Amy's ganger...I'm just
 

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Posted by The Revolutionist (# 4578) on :
 
I've watched it again for the Impossible Podcasts fan commentary, which is now online. Some further reflections...

I enjoyed the episode, but I thought that several of the characters got hit by the Stupid Stick, especially as they were escaping towards the end. I couldn't understand why the real Doctor couldn't just have disintegrated monster-Jen - if they hadn't stopped to chat and hug and say goodbye, there would have been plenty of time. It was for the most part entertaining and stylish, but let down slightly by lapses in logic.

It shows some of the advantages and dangers of a more complex story arc. On the one hand, the cliffhanger was amazing - this is probably the best story arc Doctor Who has done, although a lot will depend on how well it is resolved. On the other hand, it didn't quite fit with the rest of the story, and undermined it as a standalone.

Particularly, melting Amy at the end seemed a bit odd after all the "Gangers are people too" stuff - I think it needed to be explained more clearly. All the pieces of information were there - that the original Gangers were just 'avatars' for the humans until the storm hit; that the version of the Flesh the humans were using is a more primitive version; and that the Doctor was simply breaking the connection between the real Amy's consciousness and her Flesh duplicate. All it needed to make it clear was for Rory to go "You killed her!" and for the Doctor to say why that wasn't the case, just to join the dots.
 

---

Posted by tessaB (# 8533) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Revolutionist:

Particularly, melting Amy at the end seemed a bit odd after all the "Gangers are people too" stuff - I think it needed to be explained more clearly. All the pieces of information were there - that the original Gangers were just 'avatars' for the humans until the storm hit; that the version of the Flesh the humans were using is a more primitive version; and that the Doctor was simply breaking the connection between the real Amy's consciousness and her Flesh duplicate. All it needed to make it clear was for Rory to go "You killed her!" and for the Doctor to say why that wasn't the case, just to join the dots.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by GeordieDownSouth:
And my bid is that the "good man" is Rory, not the Doctor. Losing Amy will spur him into action.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dormouse:
I can't keep up with all the theorising...I just enjoy each show for what it is and hope I'm reminded of the vital bits when it matters...

But, oh! I watched Confidential last night (we'd recorded it) and thought it was dire! There were some short interesting bits, but mostly it seemed to consist of the three main actors wittering on about what Christmas presents they'd got (and we want to know this why?) and an overlong piece about whether Matt Smith and Annoying KG believe in ghosts (conclusion: they don't really know) It was almost a complete waste of time. Did anyone else see it? Am I being overly critical?

---

quote:

---

It still seems a bit cruel although I suppose the doctor was protecting the real Amy, making her wake up.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lola:
But if River is the child that was in the space suit then she killed (or believes she killed or killed a flesh avatar of) the Doctor at the start of the series. Also - can't remember the early episodes clearly - why wouldn't she remember that when they turned up at the lake and watched it happen?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by tessaB:
Who was it who said 'the only water in the forest is in the river'? Was it one of the gangers?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by itokro:

quote:

---

Originally posted by tessaB:
Who was it who said 'the only water in the forest is in the river'? Was it one of the gangers?

---

It was the TARDIS, while in Idris' body.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by wilson:
Still, a lot of fun overall and some nice lines. Including one very naughty one pitched to go over the kids heads (hopefully!)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nenya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by wilson:
Still, a lot of fun overall and some nice lines. Including one very naughty one pitched to go over the kids heads (hopefully!)

---

Do you mean the one about Amy and Rory spending their wedding night on the Tardis?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tom Day:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nenya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by wilson:
Still, a lot of fun overall and some nice lines. Including one very naughty one pitched to go over the kids heads (hopefully!)

---

Do you mean the one about Amy and Rory spending their wedding night on the Tardis?

---

I thought it was the one that River Song said about her birthdays and there being 2 doctor's!

I really enjoyed it, there were a few twists in the storyline, and some good fun characters - as others have said I also really enjoyed the Sontaran nurse! I do have to say though that the 7 episodes have left me slightly confused - the storyline does not seem to have been that easy to follow. And the doctor suggesting that Amy had been 'swapped' before America was interesting - I had thought that she was swapped during the Silence episode when she was captured.

All in all though I enjoyed the series so far and the episode. It is a shame we have to wait till the autumn now but hey!

Tom

---

Ahhh, I thought it was the Sontaran nurse's comment about breast milk...
 

---

Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by joan knox:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tom Day:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nenya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by wilson:
Still, a lot of fun overall and some nice lines. Including one very naughty one pitched to go over the kids heads (hopefully!)

---

Do you mean the one about Amy and Rory spending their wedding night on the Tardis?

---

I thought it was the one that River Song said about her birthdays and there being 2 doctor's!

---

Ahhh, I thought it was the Sontaran nurse's comment about breast milk...

---

There are obviously more potentially naughty lines than I realised.
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
There were a few such lines . I quite liked "We're the Thin Fat Married Gay Anglican couple. Do we need names as well?"

Not too sure about the denouement of River being Amy's daughter (yuk, poor River) but at least she wasn't a shape-changing alien.

However, the whole episode seemed to rush past in a flood of allusions I mostly either didn't get or only got belatedly. I wasn't too keen on the messianic approach to the Doctor who was busy trying to win the Last Battle/Armageddon/Ragnarok without any real explanation or lead-up to what this was about. What the show's intended target audience of children made of all this I can't imagine.
 

---

Posted by wilson (# 37) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nenya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by wilson:
Still, a lot of fun overall and some nice lines. Including one very naughty one pitched to go over the kids heads (hopefully!)

---

Do you mean the one about Amy and Rory spending their wedding night on the Tardis?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by wilson:

[/qb]

---

I meant the scene where the Victorian Silurian and her maid/lover are in the control room and she says something about all mammals looking alike. Then she says, "Oh was I being insensitive again? I don't know why you put up with me." At which point her very long, agile lizard tongue flicks out to stop the soldiers escaping. The women exchange a brief meaningful glance.

OK, so I have a filthy mind... [/QB][/QUOTE]

Well with a tongue like that, what girl could resist?



 

---

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
What I want to know is whether Moffat had decided who River Song was back when he wrote Time of Angels/ Forest of the Dead. Because some of the dialogue between River and Amy in that must be interesting with hindsight.
 

---

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I think Moffat falls far short of Pullman's take on organised church - which is seriously thought out - but I suspect has something more behind it than Dan Brown, who I think is merely silly.

I suspect, from watching Moffat in his interview, that he is one of those who has fallen foul of some representative of one or another of the churches, a representative who has himself (probably male) fallen short of what we would hope such a person to be. Having known something of the sort in my family, and in a friend's life, I know how this sort of thing can rankle (and that's an understatement). He seemed to take the activities of churches more personally than simply extrapolating from the historical activities of Inquisitors and Witch Finders General, modified by observations of the excesses of the Westboro Baptists.

Which is not an excuse.

Penny

[ 05. June 2011, 20:49: Message edited by: Penny S ]
 

---

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eigon:
The Victorian Silurian is really cool! And very gay.

---

It's nice to see a Silurian who's on good terms with humans after all this time. (I wonder whether Moffat's read Fingersmith or other Sarah Waters?)
 

---

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
So, my question; could it be the Doctor killing the Doctor?
 

---

Posted by Stumbling Pilgrim (# 7637) on :
 
Checking in for the first time in ages on this thread (or any other for that matter) to place myself in the 'loving it' camp. The characters were great, and the Sontaran nurse seems to be gathering his own fan club. Loved the 'River Song' mystery being largely due to a translation issue, and as someone has said it was beautifully handled. The tiny shake of Amy's head was probably the single best piece of acting we've seen from her. I too wondered why though, if it was River in the spacesuit, she didn't remember killing the Doctor, or whoever - unless something timey-wimey has happened in the meantime to alter her memory.

I know he isn't everyone's cup of tea (or bag of jelly babies), but I have to say I think Matt Smith is coming into his own. He was funny and moving, and I loved the look on his face on 'the only time they were together in the Tardis was on their w... '

I'm sure I didn't dream the little teaser after the end credits (even though it isn't showing on iPlayer), but nobody has mentioned it - if anyone else saw it, what did you make of it?

(Ooh, cross-posted with Firenze - didn't think of that!)

[ 05. June 2011, 21:09: Message edited by: Stumbling Pilgrim ]
 

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Posted by The Revolutionist (# 4578) on :
 
Having seen it a second time for the podcast commentary (now online, link in my sig!), I still enjoyed it loads. But I did think that the ending wasn't as much of a cliffhanger as it could have been. River Song turning up and saying "It's me, and everything's going to be okay" isn't as dramatic as her turning up and saying "It's me, so unless you find the baby, you'll have never met me", which would have upped the stakes somewhat.

When Moffat hyped up the "game-changing cliffhanger", I thought I'd be gagging to find out what happens next, but I'm not particularly. I'm looking forward to the second half of the next series, but as a cliffhanger, it lacks urgency.

Quibbles aside, still brilliant!
 

---

Posted by Avila (# 15541) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ceannaideach:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lola:
But if River is the child that was in the space suit then she killed (or believes she killed or killed a flesh avatar of) the Doctor at the start of the series. Also - can't remember the early episodes clearly - why wouldn't she remember that when they turned up at the lake and watched it happen?

---

You know I'm not too sure that she didn't remember. After she'd unloaded her gun at the disappearing astronaut she seemed to pause as if remembering something and murmured "Of course,"

Which set off a bell in my mind at the time but I didn't pursue the thought further.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
I think Moffat falls far short of Pullman's take on organised church - which is seriously thought out - but I suspect has something more behind it than Dan Brown, who I think is merely silly.

I suspect, from watching Moffat in his interview, that he is one of those who has fallen foul of some representative of one or another of the churches, a representative who has himself (probably male) fallen short of what we would hope such a person to be. Having known something of the sort in my family, and in a friend's life, I know how this sort of thing can rankle (and that's an understatement). He seemed to take the activities of churches more personally than simply extrapolating from the historical activities of Inquisitors and Witch Finders General, modified by observations of the excesses of the Westboro Baptists.

Which is not an excuse.

---

He doesn't need an excuse. Nor does he need your approval. What he has written, he has written. But I do find it amusing that having already watched mind-controlling aliens you can't remember, crazed medical software, a TARDIS-eating monster living outside the universe and acid-mining clones just in this series, people can take this particular concept so seriously and personally.

I found it quite enjoyable at the time, thanks to some sharp dialogue (which has done a lot for flimsy stories this series), but it left me feeling empty. There was just too much that didn't make sense, and the tricks and surprises weren't enough to distract from that. The Doctor was apparently so furious that he was prepared to suddenly start blowing things up for no reason other than to get the Cybermen's attention, but his cunning plan was dancing on a knife edge, and would only have worked with a cool head. Then at the end of the episode, with everything lying in tatters and the baby still missing, he just starts giggling and runs off to do something else entirely? No. Just no.

The "trap" was also rather pointless. They seemed quite happy for the Doctor et al to pop up because of this trap, but it didn't ever seriously threaten any of the main characters (the Doctor wasn't even there), and seeing that the baby was never really there, it only seemed to exist to get rid of the extras who were dragged in to make this feel a bit more epic. Did the Headless Monks (the best bit IMO) conveniently get killed off at exactly the same time as the Extras, or did they just wander off having done their job of depleting the cast back to normal, manageable levels?

The best reason I can think of for the "trap" is from a script perspective - it provided a distraction to ensure that the viewer didn't think too much about Amy's baby, so that the Flesh Baby revelation was an effective shock. The other surprise about the baby, though, was less effective. The River-Pond similarity was obvious waaaaay back, and River as Amy's baby was a clear possibility based on existing knowledge, albeit at the level of "I wouldn't be surprised if..." rather than "I'm sure that..." The lack of surprise isn't the end of the world, but it does make it harder to ignore the weak points in the plot, and causes further problems of motivation and consistency.

There must now be very short odds that the Astronaut is River as a girl. In which case, why did she give no indication in ep1 of recognising the time and place? And why, seeing that she must have known what was going to happen and was willing to shoot at her younger self, didn't she try to do so before the Doctor was shot? The only possible answer I can come up with is that the Doctor had to be shot for some reason, but she didn't want to live with having done it, so why not just shoot her current self? There may be explanations forthcoming and even some concealed twists, but my hopes aren't high on this evidence.

Worst of all, they've made River into some sort of ersatz Time Lord/Lady thing, so when Alex Kingston gets too old to play the ever-younger River, or just wants to move on, they'll have a way of recasting her to keep the character going in an earlier regeneration. I get the horrible feeling we're stuck with her for good.
 

---

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I suppose that when the Dr spoke to the baby, he was speaking to the original, as he had spoken to the original Amy through her avatar. And perhaps Madam Kovarian had done some trick like a shepherd wiping the abandoned lamb with the birth fluids of the dead one, so the ewe adopts it and feeds it. It might be easier to hide a flesh baby - and he didn't have long to work on it, whereas he hid some time to work out what was happening with Amy.

River Song has grown up quite well given that she has been deprived of loving contact in a crucial stage of her development. I remember the work done with monkeys and wire milk stations or soft toy milk stations, rather than actual mothers. And given that the intent of the bringers up is to produce a weapon, bringing her up without love would be a prime factor, I would imagine. But maybe Moffat isn't as up on nurture as on gender bending.

Penny
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
My first instinct on seeing this week's episode was to dislike it strongly. This is because -
(a) I don't like the "The Doctor's this big bad universally famous legend thingy, ooh let's be automatically scared of him" theme.
(b) I didn't like the gathering-an-army theme. Pointless.
(c) I don't like the Nu-Silurians. Not even lesbian ones.

But then I thought, hang on - was this episode actually good at doing what it set out to do? And the answer, I thought, was yes - it was very good indeed. It ticked all the boxes. It was big, loud, spectacular. It gave a large nod to Star Wars (and a little one to Thunderbirds). It had some very funny lines, and, I thought, a genuinely scary performance from Matt Smith, in the "Colonel Run Away" scene. The "reveal" was clever and, as Moffat pointed out in Confidential, did what a reveal should do, which is to create more questions than it answered.

The question I was left with, however - and I have never said this since the show returned - is, was it Doctor Who? How did this episode fit with the man who slips in and out of time and space at random? Who often doesn't know where he is, or where he's going? Whom nobody knows because he says, "Don't mention it", or "I hate goodbyes", or simply slips quietly away when no-one is looking? How did he become a galactic megastar who can turn armies around just by saying, "Basically - run"? And, more to the point, why?

People didn't tell stories and write songs about the old Doctor. The universe is a big place, in which it's a big thing to make a name for yourself, and so his interventions were lost to history. I can imagine his name being written out of the official investigation of the Sandminer in Robots of Death; forgotten in the efforts of recolonising Earth after The Ark in Space; a mere footnote in the private history of the royal family of Peladon. How did we get from there to where we are today? I don't know, and I'm increasingly unsure that I like it.
 

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Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gill H:
So... is Amy now thinking "Eww, I nearly made out with my son-in-law!"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gill H:


So... is Amy now thinking "Eww, I nearly made out with my son-in-law!"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
The question I was left with, however - and I have never said this since the show returned - is, was it Doctor Who? How did this episode fit with the man who slips in and out of time and space at random? Who often doesn't know where he is, or where he's going? Whom nobody knows because he says, "Don't mention it", or "I hate goodbyes", or simply slips quietly away when no-one is looking? How did he become a galactic megastar who can turn armies around just by saying, "Basically - run"? And, more to the point, why?

People didn't tell stories and write songs about the old Doctor. The universe is a big place, in which it's a big thing to make a name for yourself, and so his interventions were lost to history. I can imagine his name being written out of the official investigation of the Sandminer in Robots of Death; forgotten in the efforts of recolonising Earth after The Ark in Space; a mere footnote in the private history of the royal family of Peladon. How did we get from there to where we are today? I don't know, and I'm increasingly unsure that I like it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
Just spotted another hole, I think. Madame K went to get on her ship, but found it occupied by the pirates. How did she get off with the real baby, then?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
The question I was left with, however - and I have never said this since the show returned - is, was it Doctor Who? How did this episode fit with the man who slips in and out of time and space at random? Who often doesn't know where he is, or where he's going? Whom nobody knows because he says, "Don't mention it", or "I hate goodbyes", or simply slips quietly away when no-one is looking? How did he become a galactic megastar who can turn armies around just by saying, "Basically - run"? And, more to the point, why?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Revolutionist:
I also dislike the Celebritification of the Doctor, making him into some universally-recognised figure.

But one of the things that I liked about this story is that it calls that into question, and shows the Doctor getting into problems because of it - River Song in particular takes him to task for it at the end.

We also now know that she was created as a weapon against the Doctor. I reckon he might have a big wake-up call in the offing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
It was the how Madam K left part, rather than the baby, that was exercising me. After all, she's kidnapped someone earlier than expected before. I do think it's a bit of a cheat to have had Amy taken before the series started, though.

Penny

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by wilson:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nenya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by wilson:
Still, a lot of fun overall and some nice lines. Including one very naughty one pitched to go over the kids heads (hopefully!)

---

Do you mean the one about Amy and Rory spending their wedding night on the Tardis?

---

I meant the scene where the Victorian Silurian and her maid/lover are in the control room and she says something about all mammals looking alike. Then she says, "Oh was I being insensitive again? I don't know why you put up with me." At which point her very long, agile lizard tongue flicks out to stop the soldiers escaping. The women exchange a brief meaningful glance.

OK, so I have a filthy mind...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
Interesting point he made about rules, though. The good don't need them. He has many, so he is not good. But wouldn't seeing the need for self restraint, and applying it against strong urges to abandon it be the action of someone good?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wayfaring Stranger:

quote:

---

Originally posted by wilson:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Nenya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by wilson:
Still, a lot of fun overall and some nice lines. Including one very naughty one pitched to go over the kids heads (hopefully!)

---

Do you mean the one about Amy and Rory spending their wedding night on the Tardis?

---

I meant the scene where the Victorian Silurian and her maid/lover are in the control room and she says something about all mammals looking alike. Then she says, "Oh was I being insensitive again? I don't know why you put up with me." At which point her very long, agile lizard tongue flicks out to stop the soldiers escaping. The women exchange a brief meaningful glance.

OK, so I have a filthy mind...

---

I have to say, that one went right over my head.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
If the Doctor is seen as the Big Bad, a dark legend, how come the people opposing him do so using bad methods? To be convincing they'd have to look good, wouldn't they? Like a bunch of Franciscan friars, or non-violent protestors.

---

quote:

---

Interesting point he made about rules, though. The good don't need them. He has many, so he is not good. But wouldn't seeing the need for self restraint, and applying it against strong urges to abandon it be the action of someone good?

(Doesn't fit with the Cyber elimination, though. Which doesn't fit with the previous behaviour.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
If the Doctor is seen as the Big Bad, a dark legend, how come the people opposing him do so using bad methods? To be convincing they'd have to look good, wouldn't they? Like a bunch of Franciscan friars, or non-violent protestors.

What do we want? No Doctor. When don't we want him? Now. Or then, either.

Passive resistance to the Doctor. Wouldn't lead to very dramatic plots, though. Less frenetic, more time to explain. Wouldn't suit Moffat.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I wonder, also, if the Doctor's "death" (I assume I should be putting "death" in quotes!) in The Impossible Astronaut is his attempt to make the universe at large believe he's dead and, as it were, reset his reputation to zero?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I wonder, also, if the Doctor's "death" (I assume I should be putting "death" in quotes!) in The Impossible Astronaut is his attempt to make the universe at large believe he's dead and, as it were, reset his reputation to zero?

---

Nice theory. However, if he were arranging his death in that fashion I'd assume he'd have it witnessed by more than three / four trusted companions.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by M.:
Changing the subject a bit, I've been wondering why River couldn't go and help Rory etc. until the very end. I suppose it was so she didn't meet herself-as-Melody (or at least pretend-Melody), which you can't do without exploding the universe (except when it's necessary for the plot, of course).

---

Moffat doesn't seem to worry about that, as seen by old & young miser interacting in the Christmas show and Amy and Amelia interacting during the whole Pandorica thing.

...Unless Amy was already substituted by then! Maybe they snatched her from the Pandorica during the couple-thousand years she was in there, and subbed Flesh Amy. Flesh Amy could then pat Amelia to her heart's content, which the Doctor would notice as odd and be suspicious that she had been switched! After which, he quietly let Flesh Amy marry Rory without any concern and...no, no, there are too many holes in that theory.

We are probably way overthinking this. With all the bits about River killing a good man, we are meant to think she was in the spacesuit and the Doctor was killed, but the "surprise" will be that she kills some other good man (of which Rory is the only current candidate) and the spacesuit person will turn out to be somebody quite different, like the Doctor himself. Then it will turn out that Spacesuit Doctor is the one that arranged for his little group to all gather there and it was a Flesh Doctor who was killed after spending two centuries acting as a distraction for others while the real Doctor secretly worked on some bogus way to erase knowledge of his existence from the Universe, which is why many (such as the tree lady back in Season 1 of the new series) view him as a legend only.

Plotting is easy if you don't care about making sense.
 

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Posted by alienfromzog (# 5327) on :
 
Some good stuff here.

What no-one seems to have mentioned yet is that at some point (presumably series finale) the tardis has to explode. The last series ended with the enigmatic implication that this would be delved into further... that has to fit somewhere.

Those that fear the doctor don't have to be good to see him as bad. They can be just as bad as they think he is, just want to defeat him.

I Did enjoy the episode very much. One lingering fear that it won't all hang together in the end, but I think it will...

AFZ
 

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Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by alienfromzog:
What no-one seems to have mentioned yet is that at some point (presumably series finale) the tardis has to explode. The last series ended with the enigmatic implication that this would be delved into further... that has to fit somewhere.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rev per Minute:

Only question is that, if River Song is kidnapped by the Anglican Army in order to kill the Doctor, why is she then locked up by them for 'killing a good man'? (It was the Clerics who released her - and took her back - in the last series)

---

Hang on a minute, I thought that Rory was the 'good man'. He certainly went to war (all costumed up and everything ) and the Doctor made it very clear that he wasn't a good man with his line about good men not needing rules and him having so many.
No...River is totally not allowed to kill her own dad. I won't let her! Rory is the best person in the current series and has been killed enough.
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
*News just in*

It's on the BBC website that the next series has been commissioned, and Matt Smith will be in it. They're saying fourteen episodes, so that's presumably a Christmas special plus a season of thirteen in 2012. No news yet as to whether that season will be spring, autumn, or split.
 

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Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :
 
Yay!

Arthur Darvill - Rory - is spending the summer at the Globe, playing Mephistopheles in Marlowe's Doctor Faustus, which we're seeing in July. He can't get away from a Doctor...
 

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Posted by Balaam (# 4543) on :
 
Glad I'm not the only one to think of Arthur Darvill as best actor in the series (so far).

Other awards, Marshall Lancaster as Buzzer in the Flesh stories for commanding screen presence, he was noticeable even when he had no dialogue.

Best comedic performance award goes to the Sontaran nurse.

And the Alex Kingston award for being Alex Kingston goes to Alex Kingston. (I'm a fan,can't you tell?)
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Balaam:
Other awards, Marshall Lancaster as Buzzer in the Flesh stories for commanding screen presence, he was noticeable even when he had no dialogue.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rev per Minute:
Wouldn't it then be not only important but necessary to try to rid the universe of this man? 'Good man' or not, they would want him out of the way, by whatever means necessary (as long as they were approved by the Papal mainframe herself - does that mean the future is Anglo-Papalist?)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by alienfromzog:
Those that fear the doctor don't have to be good to see him as bad. They can be just as bad as they think he is, just want to defeat him

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
Hedgehog, I think it's fair to say that Moffat loves misleading us, so on reflection, I agree that it probably won't be River in the spacesuit because that would be Too Obvious.

---

quote:

---

Incidentally, has anyone looked at the front page of the Doctor Who site recently? One of these people is not like the others, One of these people just doesn't belong.

---

quote:

---

Some more curious things in there if you look. Does this mean something, or does the Moff's red herring factory extend to the website?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
Hedgehog, I think it's fair to say that Moffat loves misleading us, so on reflection, I agree that it probably won't be River in the spacesuit because that would be Too Obvious.

---

I'm not sure he does love misleading people. I mean, you could probably hear the shout of 'I knew it' from the UK in outer space when River Song was revealed to be Amy's baby.

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

Incidentally, has anyone looked at the front page of the Doctor Who site recently? One of these people is not like the others, One of these people just doesn't belong.

---

You mean the Doctor, Amy, Rory, and... Jenny? I was just about to post that. Yes, it needs explaining. Why Jenny and not Vashta for example. Perhaps the website designer got confused by the Cast List Red Herring and thought it was Jenny, 'the Doctor's daughter' back. Or perhaps it means Jenny actually is the Doctor's daughter back.

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

Some more curious things in there if you look. Does this mean something, or does the Moff's red herring factory extend to the website?

---

Ooh.. such as? I haven't noticed anything else...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
Have a look at the Doctor's profile. I'm pretty sure that used to be more informative.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gill H:
Joining in the Arthur Darvill appreciation. There was a lovely moment when the Doctor reveals the cradle was his - he blurted out "It's mine" and you could practically see the thought cross Rory's mind that he was talking about the baby.

---

Yes, one of many moments thrown in to send you briefly down the wrong track, and it was very well done. The significant details and clues, though, have generally been hidden in plain sight in apparently inconsequential dialogue, such as "Time head" and "My old man". More on that in a moment.

I rewatched AGMGTW last night, and it was much better without heightened expectations. It still didn't make much sense as a plot, and seemed to have been thrown together to include lots of things that will be Important in the rest of the series, with a big reveal at the end to paper over the cracks where they joined up, but it was fun enough, and the lack of coherence might be the price we pay for a thrilling second half.

On second viewing, several things leapt out at me as possibly significant. Make of them what you will. When he goes to fetch River, Rory says she's been with the Doctor from a different time, "unless there's more than one". Quickly glossed over with the "whole other birthday" line, but a very strange thing to say. Also, when Rory was rescuing Amy, a sonic screwdriver could be heard outside the door, but only Rory came in, and the Doctor didn't appear until some time later. Both of these could support the Two Doctors Theory.

Madame K, speaking to the Doctor after her escape, said the baby gave them "hope", a sentiment you wouldn't normally associate with a cartoon villain caricature. Admittedly, the hope was of destroying the Doctor, but it still suggests to me that they're not the pure evil they're being portrayed as.

Part of the poem was "Friendship dies and true love lies when a good man goes to war". I don't think we've clearly seen that yet, but I wouldn't completely trust anything that was said towards the end of the episode. Finally, there's definitely a theme of a healer-warrior. The Doctor is seen as a warrior, Rory the Nurse is becoming one, and the Sontaran was bizarrely and amusingly a nurse, albeit one who defined his existence by the defeat he would eventually inflict on his patients in battle. No idea what that means, though.
 

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Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
Jenny (Dr's daughter) did regenerate at the end of her episode, didn't she?
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
In rather sadder news, Roy Skelton died yesterday, aged 79. He was principally a voice artist, and "appeared" in seventeen Doctor Who stories, most often as a Dalek voice. But he was also the first Cybermen voice - that weird, sing-song voice they had in The Tenth Planet - the voice of the Krotons, and also had a couple of on-screen acting credits (his Marshal Chedaki in The Android Invasion was, IMO, one of the best things about that rather dull story).
 

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Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 

 

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
In noticed the proliferation of Jennies - but then, in real life, you do get clusters of people with the same name, and Moffat could just have been playing with random, for a joke.

Or, of course, not.

My name does not occur as frequently as Jennifer, but there were three of us in a class of about 14 when I was 7!

Red herring production - presumably the listing of Sydney's parts as the little girl and the named part was one.
Penny

[ 09. June 2011, 10:21: Message edited by: Penny S ]
 

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Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
Jenny (Dr's daughter) did regenerate at the end of her episode, didn't she?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rogue:
]If I remember correctly she didn't regenerate as such (no change in appearance) but recovered because her second heart kicked in. I may be wrong.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Taliesin:
What episodes are running now? Anything anywhere? What are we supposed to watch on Saturday evenings...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Taliesin:
What episodes are running now? Anything anywhere? What are we supposed to watch on Saturday evenings...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
I thought the not shooting was mostly because of a) the lighting, and b) the chance of shooting the actual Headless Monks, who were their allies, and hosts on the asteroid. Or, indeed, each other.

Like the end of Blake's Seven, with the circular firing squad.

That he needed to tell his people not to fire in a confusing situation, now that was interesting, and suggests a lack of training.

Penny

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
I'd like to know how the Headless Monks managed their battle chant.

The "attack prayer"! I think we could do with that at ours.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
Not entirely no Merlin, there's Camelot starting on Channel 4, with Joseph Fiennes as Merlin. No idea how good this will be though.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gill H:
Are nurses the new Bad Wolf? Besides Rory we had the Sontaran and the pirate ship woman.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rogue:
The Doctor did study medicine in Edinburgh under Lister. The second Doctor revealed this. It was suggested at the time that Lister in the nineteenth century might not have been aware of the kind of things he was coming up against at the time (a nerve infection caused by Cybermen on the Moon when they contaminated the sugar).

Actually, I think I may have already said this. Apologies for repeating myself myself.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rogue:
The Doctor did study medicine in Edinburgh under Lister. The second Doctor revealed this. It was suggested at the time that Lister in the nineteenth century might not have been aware of the kind of things he was coming up against at the time (a nerve infection caused by Cybermen on the Moon when they contaminated the sugar).

Actually, I think I may have already said this. Apologies for repeating myself myself.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anchorman:
Peter Davison's Doctor met a rebel Time Lord - The 'Rani', as her name was never given, I suppose that counts as a title.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anchorman:
This second Moffat series reminds me a bit of the Baker 'Gothic' era; Remember the Brain of Morbius? It is great stuff, though; intriguing plotlines, good SF and a return to the old days of cliffhangers.
What more could we ask for?
( although the six-year-old me who got hooked on Troughton would have struggled)

---

I do wish Moffat had restrained himself from the grand Everybody On Stage semi-finale, though. I mean, really, the Space Spitfires and Space Pirates? If he is going to call in help, why not, oh, somebody with a proper spaceship and some UNIT troops? They keep doing this Everybody On Stage bit season after season and it increasingly feels like they are just patting themselves on the back. Bad enough to endure it for the season finale, but to have to endure for the semi-finale too?
 

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Posted by art dunce (# 9258) on :
 
So the Doctor said that she had been a ganger since before America so how on earth did her ganger keep it's signal not only outside of the universe but inside of the impregnable dwarf star alloy prison created to hold the Doctor?
 

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Posted by Chelley (# 11322) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by art dunce:
So the Doctor said that she had been a ganger since before America so how on earth did her ganger keep it's signal not only outside of the universe but inside of the impregnable dwarf star alloy prison created to hold the Doctor?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by art dunce:
So the Doctor said that she had been a ganger since before America so how on earth did her ganger keep it's signal not only outside of the universe but inside of the impregnable dwarf star alloy prison created to hold the Doctor?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
And how was Ganger Amy substituted at the start of the season if the Gangers were made by the refinery company in a specific period of near-future Earth?

---

quote:

---

Dafyd posted: I would guess that the signal was being routed through the Tardis. That was present in both cases.
I think Rory mentions that the people must have been able to get the signal through the Tardis' security. Using the Tardis to get the signal to the nearby ganger would be the next logical move.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Anchorman:
Come to think about it, how about an encounter between Paul McGhann and Matt Smith's Doctors for the fiftieth anniversary?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by M.:
I don't think River can be the little girl, because she didn't recognise the space suit. But then why the picture of Amy and the baby in the little girl's room?

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quote:

---

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by M.:
I don't think River can be the little girl, because she didn't recognise the space suit. But then why the picture of Amy and the baby in the little girl's room?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Or River was pretending not to recognise it so as not to cause paradoxes in her personal time line. Or River did it and then at some point her memory was erased. Or that River did it and then at some point the timeline was altered so that it didn't actually happen in the timeline that she's living in. Or River was pretty young at the time and her memory was a bit fuzzy. (My wife says she doesn't have any childhood memories earlier than about eight.)

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Anchorman:
Have you listened to some of the many audio adventures McGhann has appeared in? ( many of them have been broadcast on Radio 7/now 4Extra ). They show the Doctor he could have been, and really make you think nasty thoughts involving Michael Grade, Auntie Beeb and a giant blender.
The box tonight was rubbish, so I just sat and watched The Invasion ( Troughton ) again. the animation for the missing episodes was truly brilliant.
Now, I know they have the audio for ALL the missing stories; If they would just animate a couple, it would restore my faith - partially - in Auntie Beeb.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eigon:
Moffat's done one thing perfectly - he's made sure we'll all be watching when the series starts up again!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chapelhead:
I wish they would bring back Doctor Who, though. Proper Doctor Who.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by wilson:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chapelhead:
I wish they would bring back Doctor Who, though. Proper Doctor Who.

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What counts as "proper Doctor Who"?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hedgehog:
...I do wish Moffat had restrained himself from the grand Everybody On Stage semi-finale, though. I mean, really, the Space Spitfires and Space Pirates? If he is going to call in help, why not, oh, somebody with a proper spaceship and some UNIT troops? They keep doing this Everybody On Stage bit season after season and it increasingly feels like they are just patting themselves on the back. Bad enough to endure it for the season finale, but to have to endure for the semi-finale too?

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quote:

---

Has anyone among us ever read the novelisations of the classic series, published by Target? I loved my Target books, still have the full set, but they're getting a bit old now.

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Yes. I had the set, including a first ?edition of the very first book, Dr Who and the Daleks.
And then, being 16 and in a total strop, I took the lot to the local sci fi bookshop and sold them for a pittance (I didn't realie the first one was special til he offered me £4 for that and only 10p each for the others) and I bought a bottle of whisky and two packets of fags.

it was probably only a half bottle, actually.
With fairly horrible after effects...
 

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Posted by wilson (# 37) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by wilson:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Chapelhead:
I wish they would bring back Doctor Who, though. Proper Doctor Who.

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What counts as "proper Doctor Who"?

---

"Proper Doctor Who" usually means the Doctor Who you talk about in the playground on Monday.

---

Ah, then as I feared it can never be brought back only fondly remembered. As will the current lot, by someone, eventually.


 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
Anchorman - apologies for resurrecting those painful memories! The first Doctor Who I saw in colour was Planet of the Spiders - just the thing for a young arachnophobe!

BBC books are publishing paper versions (I believe the term is "treebooks") of the old novelisations at the same time as the Kindle versions. At least some of them also seem to have been given new introductions by some of the leading lights in Nu-Who. The first batch are out on 7 July and include some real classics. I'd particularly recommend The Daleks, The Auton Invasion, and The Cave Monsters. The first of those in particular: it's a great read, unique among the novelisations for being a first-person (Ian Chesterton) narrative. It also writes The Daleks as the Doctor's first adventure with Ian and Barbara, presumably because nobody at that time ever thought An Unearthly Child would be written up. It nicely captures the moral ambiguities of that story, with Ian having to learn to trust the apparently untrustworthy Doctor. And of course, the special effects are better!
 

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Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anchorman:
Have you listened to some of the many audio adventures McGhann has appeared in? ( many of them have been broadcast on Radio 7/now 4Extra ). They show the Doctor he could have been, and really make you think nasty thoughts involving Michael Grade, Auntie Beeb and a giant blender.
The box tonight was rubbish, so I just sat and watched The Invasion ( Troughton ) again. the animation for the missing episodes was truly brilliant.
Now, I know they have the audio for ALL the missing stories; If they would just animate a couple, it would restore my faith - partially - in Auntie Beeb.

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Spooky coincidence - I watched the first 4 episodes of The Invasion today. It's one of the few stories you can genuinely point to and say "They don't make 'em like that any more." A classic among classics.

Has anyone among us ever read the novelisations of the classic series, published by Target? I loved my Target books, still have the full set, but they're getting a bit old now. But the good new is, BBC books are starting to reprint them - including editions for Kindle! I would say woo-hoo, if I was the sort of person who says woo-hoo.

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I had about 80 Target books of the 'classic' Who. Sadly, my parents, when I left home, did a clear out of my bedroom and junked the whole lot without telling me!
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Matt Black:
I had about 80 Target books of the 'classic' Who. Sadly, my parents, when I left home, did a clear out of my bedroom and junked the whole lot without telling me!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Anchorman:
"Black and white Jon Pertwee"?
Leave it out - That was responsible for my first crisis of faith....
I received the board of education over the seat of learning.

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I almost had to run that through the TARDIS translation matrix to understand what you meant there! I'm still too literal for this board...
 

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Posted by Chapelhead (# 21) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by wilson:

quote:

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Originally posted by Chapelhead:
I wish they would bring back Doctor Who, though. Proper Doctor Who.

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What counts as "proper Doctor Who"?

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Rogue:
Changing the subject entirely: why are the Doctor's Companions nearly always from contemporary (at the time of first broadcast) Earth Humans? Actually I can think of several reasons but two notable exceptions were Leela and Jamie MacKinnon (?). These were both characters for who technology was completely out of their experience before they met the Doctor and this meant they could bring some interesting insights and perspectives to the adventures.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Hedgehog:
Victoria and Jamie were from the viewers' past.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I don't believe that any of the other time lords that we know have such titles - maybe they have to earn them, or maybe they are titles of derision, given when they are sent out.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Rogue:
Changing the subject entirely: why are the Doctor's Companions nearly always from contemporary (at the time of first broadcast) Earth Humans? Actually I can think of several reasons but two notable exceptions were Leela and Jamie MacKinnon (?).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:

I got rather tired of the London-centric series as well. I know they did go to Amsterdam once (Arch of Infinity) but it would have been nice if just for a change, the Doctor could land in Birmingham or Cornwall instead.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:
I got rather tired of the London-centric series as well. I know they did go to Amsterdam once (Arch of Infinity) but it would have been nice if just for a change, the Doctor could land in Birmingham or Cornwall instead.

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You're just inviting people to make lists, aren't you?
 

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Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Dafyd:
Katarina was killed off almost immediately. Sara didn't last much longer. In fact, I think the list includes all the companions who've died.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by wilson:

quote:

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Originally posted by Chapelhead:
I wish they would bring back Doctor Who, though. Proper Doctor Who.

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What counts as "proper Doctor Who"?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Anchorman:
Now, I know they have the audio for ALL the missing stories; If they would just animate a couple, it would restore my faith - partially - in Auntie Beeb.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Revolutionist:
There's another animated reconstruction on the way - William Hartnell story The Reign of Terror. Hooray!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:

quote:

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Originally posted by The Revolutionist:
There's another animated reconstruction on the way - William Hartnell story The Reign of Terror. Hooray!

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Oo! Who's doing the animation? Cosgrove Hall, who I think did The Invasion, no longer exist in the form they did then. It's not the first story I'd have chosen, I must admit. After all, there is one notable Hartnell story, from which only one episode is missing, famous for introducing a celebrated bunch of tin blokes and paving the way for the great Troughton ...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Anchorman:
Some Time Lords had names (chancellor) Borussa, Morbius ( the one with the brain ), Omega ( Three Doctors), Rasselon

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Also Drax from The Armageddon Factor. Another renegade timelord who like the Dr got bored and left home. Unlike the Dr he was a bit of a clumsy prat.
 

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Posted by Avila (# 15541) on :
 
lots of timelord names around in the Deadly Assasin with Tom Baker.

I have discovered online episodes and am working through the Tom Baker series, currently at the start of Leela's time as assistant.

Since I started my Doctor Who time with Peter Davidson although some are familar though repeats many are all new to me
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
On Time Lord names:

I think the idea that their names are long, unpronounceable and a bit secret goes back to Terrance Dicks's novelisation The Auton Invasion, when at the very end the Brigadier asks his name. The Doctor muses for a moment on the privacy and difficulty of Time Lord names, before opting for "Smith. Doctor John Smith!"

Later on, as others have said, we got lots of names, but I think we were meant to believe they were abbreviated versions, or just not their real names. Look at Romana, who first brazenly announced herself as "Romanadvoratrelundar". And maybe even that wasn't her full name.

I rather like the line taken by Neil Gaiman in The Doctor's Wife - I wish we could've met The Corsair!
 

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Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Avila:
I have discovered online episodes and am working through the Tom Baker series, currently at the start of Leela's time as assistant.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

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Originally posted by Avila:
I have discovered online episodes and am working through the Tom Baker series, currently at the start of Leela's time as assistant.

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I was just watching Horror of Fang Rock and Leela's definitely one of the best companions the Doctor's had. (No, she isn't wearing that costume in Fang Rock.) Like most of the best companions, she uses her own initiative and doesn't take the Doctor at his own evaluation.
(There's a fine line between some of the best companions like Leela and Ace and some of the worst.)

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Avila:
lots of timelord names around in the Deadly Assasin with Tom Baker.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Avila:
At what point in the DW canon did the time war leave the Doctor as the 'only' remaining timelord?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Well, the first I heard about it was in the final scene of Christopher Eccleston's second story, The End of the World. It was chilling and shocking, the way he said, "My planet's gone. It's dead...."

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quote:

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Originally posted by Avila:
So the loss of Gallifrey is a Moffett event?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Avila:
To what end? To add some pathos to this lonely traveller identity? To set him free from the call backs and 'interference' from the past?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Avila:
To what end? To add some pathos to this lonely traveller identity? To set him free from the call backs and 'interference' from the past?

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Several reasons, I think. I may be wrong, but I think there are references to the destruction of Gallifrey in some of the novels that were written back in the 90s. I think Davies wanted to acknowledge at least some of those. (In fact, Human Nature / The Family of Blood started off as a novel featuring the 7th Doctor.)

I think there was an element of the "reset button" about it, too. Maybe they thought the Doctor had become too identified with the Time Lords, or that Time Lord culture was just too much baggage to carry over into the new series. Remember, back in the 60s, the term "Time Lord" wasn't even invented until the end of season 6! - the Doctor was just a mysterious alien traveller, cut off from his own people for reasons that were never fully explained.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Penny S:
And when River Song is introduced to Amy, she shows no reaction. Not that they have already met in her past. Nor that the name is the name of her mother. Nothing. Zilch. Blank face. Not even controlled blank face. Amy Pond is a meaningless name for her.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Penny S:
And when River Song is introduced to Amy, she shows no reaction. Not that they have already met in her past. Nor that the name is the name of her mother.

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quote:

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Torchwood next week. In the good old USA. With lots of money, and Russell Davies' authorship. I wonder if they are synchronising diaries.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Hedgehog:

quote:

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Originally posted by Penny S:
And when River Song is introduced to Amy, she shows no reaction. Not that they have already met in her past. Nor that the name is the name of her mother. Nothing. Zilch. Blank face. Not even controlled blank face. Amy Pond is a meaningless name for her.

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And contrast that to when we first met River, in the Library. When she learned that the Doctor's companion was Donna Noble, she did a shocked gasp ("You're Donna Noble?) before refusing to discuss it any further. So even at the end of her physical life, River wasn't exactly a master of keeping a poker face.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by The Revolutionist:
it's pretty good

It's still recognisably Torchwood

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quote:

---

Originally posted by The Revolutionist:

It's still recognisably Torchwood, despite the shift to America.

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Well, that's a relief. I might just check it out now. I did run across it last night after I posted, but was wrapped up in something else. No worries, beings it's Starz, it will rerun about 180 times in the next week.
 

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Posted by yellowroom (# 11690) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Penny S:
Incidentally, Arthur Darvill is playing Mephistopheles in Doctor Faustus in London.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
Btw on a different if related note anyone see Torchwood tonight? This feels to me pretty much on a par with the film version of Doctor Who (the Paul McGann version). Not sure I feel engaged enough to watch any further episodes.

(The baby is really cute though.)

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
I'll probably watch the next one, but it's definitely on probation. I'll allow for a certain amount of scene-setting given the transatlantic focus, but it's not a patch on Children of Earth at this point.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
... or smuggled a cyberman into HQ...

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
On the other hand, none of the supposed good guys have yet used an alien artifact to commit date rape or smuggled a cyberman into HQ without telling anyone in the name of moral ambiguity.

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Yes, I think that's what missing - that and Ianto.

And we're still stuck with Gwen Cooper who will continue to get hysterical, throw her weight around, scream at Jack and Rhys and be altogether thoroughly irritating.
 

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Posted by The Revolutionist (# 4578) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Revolutionist:
it's pretty good

It's still recognisably Torchwood

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Are those entirely compatible?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Revolutionist:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Revolutionist:
it's pretty good

It's still recognisably Torchwood

---

Are those entirely compatible?

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On the basis of Children of Earth, yes.

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That would be one where they blew up the secret base and killed off the most popular member of the main cast? And nobody snogged anyone that they weren't supposed to?
 

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I thought the concept of not dying was horrible in its interpretation, especially with regard to the burned head. I'm not sure they are sure what being alive means, since there was a shot of a still alive severed arm in the trail for next week. Apart from being an opportunity for gross-out shots. And, given that Jack knows about what is going on, his total lack of reaction to the crashed copter, with its now horribly not dead incompetent gunmen is dubious. And how come no-one in the landrover got shot? And how come we are supposed to go along with the rendition of Jack and Gwen with the collusion of the British police?

Guess what, I don't like it. It seems to have gone direct to the place in X-files where I stopped watching that.

And I know it is after the watershed, but I think people are going to have problems with younger viewers wanting to watch it.

I did like the lost files on radio this week.

Penny

[ 16. July 2011, 10:25: Message edited by: Penny S ]
 

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Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
The not-dying thing is an interesting premise, but it's already been done by Saramago in Death at Intervals.

Davies has form recycling recent atheist literature. Doctor Who Season Two ended with Davies recycling the Amber Spyglass (which I would think is rather better known in this country than Saramago). For some reason I've never seen anyone comment on that. Perhaps it's just so obvious nobody else has thought it needed saying.
 

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Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
Could you spell out the parallels with The Amber Spyglass please? I've never been struck by a resemblance, but it's a long time since I read the book, and my memory isn't what it was.
 

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Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :
 
If I remember rightly it was one of the Living Dead films which had bits of people (and a dog) which still moved as though alive in some way. Torchwood reminded me of that.

The scene in the lab was brilliantly chilling, especially when Jack asked what would happen if the head was removed.

Roll on part 2.
 

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Posted by art dunce (# 9258) on :
 
I'm just not that crazy about Jack for some reason. He never won me over like he did so many.
 

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Posted by Athrawes (# 9594) on :
 
No, I don't like Jack either. He's the reason I never got into Torchwood at all.
 

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Posted by M. (# 3291) on :
 
I watched this yesterday evening. I suppose it was OK-ish but it didn't strike me as very much like Torchwood, it was just a bit generic. Some of the gory stuff was a bit gratuitous to my mind.

I noticed some of the stupidities noted up thread as well - giving wotsisname co-ordinates within sight of the house, the hospital doctor wearing killer heels etc etc.

No doubt I will record it next Thursday but if I don't get around to watching it, it won't bother me. Shame, I quite liked Torchwood, once they got over the 'it's grown up, so it's got to be about sex' phase of the very early ones.

M.
 

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Posted by Emma Louise (# 3571) on :
 
I just thought it was all a bit naff. I was really disappointed. Lots of running around, lots of women in high heels, lots of gore for no apparent reason but no real story development or much going on of interest.

Will watch next week just in case but I'm sorely disappointed
 

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Posted by Emma Louise (# 3571) on :
 
I'm also curious to know exactly what "tailored for the American Market" means... ? Are we that different? Does it mean I'm missing something that Americans are thinking is good or that they've just dumbed the show down? No idea why it would have to change for their market.
 

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Posted by wilson (# 37) on :
 
Watched the second one and well, hmm, it's still just ok. It doesn't have the campness or silliness of the first two series but it's not quite in the same league as Children of Earth.

I think RTD struggles to maintain tone sometimes. A non-spoilery example. They discover something gory - I won't say what it is but it's already been in the trailer. So you have the big shock reveal moment and then the characters present go on to have a 3 minute conversation (which is largely exposition for our benefit) almost as if the gory thing weren't there. It ends up feeling comic.

I've heard Bill Pullman praised for his performance but I think he's chewing the scenery. Plus he's doing this weird accent-cum-vocal tick thing that I find off-putting. It feels like he's self-consciously making Danes 'evil' but I think if he just played it straight and let the evil come through the lines and actions, it would be better.

I liked the woman who played the daughter on Six Feet Under.

Not sure about the stuff on the plane.

I will probably watch to the end to see how it plays out though.

[ 17. July 2011, 12:41: Message edited by: wilson ]
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
I've watched the first part of Miracle Day, and it's okay. Only okay. Really, with only Jack and Gwen, and Rhys as a hanger-on, can it call itself Torchwood now? Or is this story going to relaunch it with a new team?

Children of Earth was exceptional - a shocking, cynical piece of drama with great writing and performances. Miracle Day has a long way to go to catch up.
 

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Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by art dunce:
I'm just not that crazy about Jack for some reason. He never won me over like he did so many.

---

quote:

---

dafyd posted: I thought he was good in The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances as a prospective companion. He had an interesting backstory, charm, and a scoundrel with a heart of gold morality that made an interesting contrast with Eccleston's Doctor.

Torchwood has largely ignored the backstory in favour of making him immortal having gone round history the slow way several times, has largely dropped the charm in favour of a more boring charisma, and has replaced the scoundrel with a heart of gold with angst over some really serious wrongdoing in the past. (Can you imagine the Jack Harkness who's showed up in Doctor Who doing what Children of Men showed him doing in the sixties?)

Personally, I'd have rather had one minute of Moffat writing Jack again in A Good Man Goes to War as a cameo than a series of Torchwood written by Davies.

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I completely agree with you until your last sentence. The last thing Moff needs is another thread to weave into this season!

The whole Macgyveresque scene on the plane was too much.
 

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Posted by The Great Gumby (# 10989) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Could you spell out the parallels with The Amber Spyglass please? I've never been struck by a resemblance, but it's a long time since I read the book, and my memory isn't what it was.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Could you spell out the parallels with The Amber Spyglass please?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Could you spell out the parallels with The Amber Spyglass please?

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Sorry, missed this, but as The Great Gumby says: two people in love have to spend the rest of their lives in different parallel worlds in order to save the universe (until the end of season finale in two years time).

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Fair do's Dafyd - Rose was getting so simperingly clingy, chucking her into a parallel universe was the only way to get rid of her. Even then, she came back and wouldn't go away till she got her own toy Doctor to play with.
 

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Posted by Hugal (# 2734) on :
 
I quite enjoyed part one of Torchwood. Not up to the standard of Children of Earth granted, but not bad at all. As it is an opening of a series you need a lot expository stuff to set the scene. I think it will get better as it progresses.

Spoiler Alert

Making CJ human has been on the cards for long time. Could give us some nice plot twists.

End of spoilers.

What it needs is a steady, nice guy who, is not all action but has calming influence on the group. Oh yeah they killed Ianto off in Children of Earth didn't they.
 

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Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :
 
I wonder if this is how the transition of Captain Jack from humanoid (is he human? I can't remember) to giant head begins.
 

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Posted by Hugal (# 2734) on :
 
That is an interesting question. I was under the impression that the idea had been dropped. It would be easy to explain it away some other way. He is pretty big headed now mind.
 

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Posted by The Revolutionist (# 4578) on :
 
So what did people think of episode 2 of Torchwood?

I thought it was rather silly and padded - did we really need to take an entire episode of Torchwood's transatlantic flight, and did the efforts to kill Jack en route really add anything? As for the way they created the "antidote"... The CIA also seem to spend their time watching YouTube videos, and have useless security.

The bits not involving Torchwood were ironically quite good - Oswald Danes' tv appearance for example, and that doctor's efforts to get to grips with the Miracle. And having watched a preview copy of episode 3, it does pick up a lot next week.

My podcast commentary on the episode, for those of you geeky enough to be interested, is now online: http://tinyurl.com/IP-TWMD02
 

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Posted by Emma Louise (# 3571) on :
 
I'm getting quite disappointed with it. It just seems like a generic American tv programme just with recognisable characters from Torchwood in it.

 

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Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
Macgyver rip-off! Hee!

OK but not great. Compare it to the repeat of 'Sherlock' which was on the previous evening ... no contest.

And I love me some JB but I liked Flirty Jack. Angsty Jack is dull.
 

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Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
Creating chelation solution from random things on a plane was ridiculous. The idea of taking something made up like that and injecting it into someone was stupid. Adding degreaser because it contains something relevant is just poor.

Not impressed.
 

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Posted by The Great Gumby (# 10989) on :
 
The entire poison/antidote thing was ludicrous, and it seemed to have been crowbarred in for three reasons - some immediate danger (as opposed to the obvious distant kind), clear evidence that the CIA are nasty, and hammering home the "Jack's Mortal" storyline.

Despite that, the eipsode was a clear improvement on the first one, and there are signs of a proper plot emerging from the clunky setup. I can't see it being great, but it could certainly turn into watchable summer trash.
 

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Posted by wilson (# 37) on :