Thread: Doctor Who: (again) Winter 2012 Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by M. (# 3291) on :
 
I think the last thread we had has been Oblivionated - if I'm wrong, perhaps a nice host will look kindly on my mistake and put things right.

I thought it was about time that the Christmas Special prequal and trailer were mentioned - can be found here .

M.

[ 17. June 2016, 14:37: Message edited by: Belisarius ]
 

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Posted by Eigon (# 4917) on :
 
Looking forward to Madame Vastra and Jennie, and Strax - and evil snowmen!
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
... and just in time to miss wishing the show a happy 49th birthday! Now that I've remembered, I'll watch An Unearthly Child tomorrow to celebrate.

I mostly liked the Christmas trailer. Loved the Doctor's (temporary?) new look. But I don't like Moffat's treatment of the Sontarans - they're getting too human, losing the arrogance and contempt that Robert Holmes gave them way back in The Time Warrior.
 

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Posted by M. (# 3291) on :
 
Yes, I thought the Sontarans are being domesticated, as well.

I'm hoping this Christmas special is better than most years; I love the idea of sentient snow.

M.
 

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Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :
 
Love Madame Vastra, I think her and Jennie need their own spin off I bought my eldest lots of Doctor Who figures for Christmas last year and was disappointed not to be able to get her for my desk

[ 25. November 2012, 10:09: Message edited by: Heavenly Anarchist ]
 

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Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :
 
I also feel a spin-off coming on. Not sure if I want it or not. Will it be another Sarah Jane Adventures or another Torchwood?
 

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Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
Evil snowmen? The John Lewis Christmas ad is scary enough already, with its Weeping Angel-like travelling snowman...!
 

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Posted by Eigon (# 4917) on :
 
In the meantime, I've just discovered that someone has worked out how to make Circular Gallifreyan script make sense in English! If you Google Circular Gallifreyan there are some good links to alphabets and methods of constructing the symbols.
I went out today and bought a pair of compasses so I can practise!
 

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Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :
 
Forget the compasses, I've downloaded the Circular Gallifreyan translator.
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
The TARDIS is getting a(nother) makeover. I wonder if the show's design is going all Victorian / steampunk?
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
Ooh, I like that, much smarter - always loathed the current design.
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
I've never liked the new series TARDIS interiors. I know all those lovely white walls and clean lines in the old series were awfully 1960s, but I loved them. I am a bit of a fan of the current production designer, Michael Pickwoad. I think his debut was A Christmas Carol two years ago, and I've liked pretty much everything he's done since.
 

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Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
Don't like the diagrams all over the place. I am a fan of the classic simplicity of the original design, but I've rather like the messy new look as well. That little pic seems to be the worst of both worlds.
 

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Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :
 
Those are not diagrams over the place, that is writing in high Galifreyan.

balaam, geek and proud.
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
OK if that's writing in High Gallifreyan, any ideas what it says (other than "Doctor Woz Ere")?

[ 14. December 2012, 22:27: Message edited by: Ariel ]
 

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Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :
 
The last TARDIS was steampunkish. Old style typewriters on the console and all. Judging by the Galifreyan writing on the walls we are going to have something different.

My favourite TARDIS is Tom Baker era.
 

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Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:
OK if that's writing in High Gallifreyan, any ideas what it says (other than "Doctor Woz Ere")?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:
OK if that's writing in High Gallifreyan, any ideas what it says (other than "Doctor Woz Ere")?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
So I've started from scratch. On various sites I can find episodes and am now on the First Doctor. I've just been introduced to the Daleks (even then they have splendid lines). The First Doctor isn't the kindly wise old man I thought he was.

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I find him quite horrid!

I also thought the last Tardis interior to be steampunky, I very much liked it as it suited my own style of Victoriana. I'm not so sure about this new design, it seems quite clean and geometric which is not to my taste at all.
Love the suggestion of 'Hello Sweetie'
 

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Posted by alienfromzog (# 5327) on :
 
Well, I have to admit I am very much looking forward to the Christmas special and indeed the whole series.

I also have to admit the thought that's got my mind churning the most is how Oswin Oswald or rather Jenna-Louise Coleman is going to fold into the story line having been killed in the first episode of the last series.

I know I'm not the first to suggest this but I think it will be an earlier part of her time-line and all the time the doctor knows that something is going to happen to her that makes her forget him and then end up captured by the Daleks. And they'll be a lot of moments of the Doctor being really sad and Oswin not knowing why...

AFZ
 

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Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :
 
I'm hoping that they meet post-Dalek-incident for both of them. If anybody can script that the Dr Who writers can. I don't particularly need all that pathos around he knows she will die.

However, on the latest trailer I think I saw a snog which I also don't need.

Won't stop me watching though.
 

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Posted by Eigon (# 4917) on :
 
How would the Doctor know Oswin was the same person as Clara (if she is)? He only ever heard her voice - only us viewers saw her - and she had been a member of crew on the space ship that crashed, so not remotely Victorian. I don't see that he would connect the two.
 

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Posted by alienfromzog (# 5327) on :
 
In the intro to the Children in Need mini prequel Matt Smith and Jenna-Louise Coleman made huge hint that she's the same character. I think she must travel in space post being Victorian... but that does still leave multiple options.

AFZ
 

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Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:
The First Doctor isn't the kindly wise old man I thought he was.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:

I think he acquires more morals under the influence of Ian and Barbara. In Ian and Barbara's last story, as I understand it, they realise that an imposter is not the Doctor because he wants to kill someone unconscious with a rock and Ian says the real Doctor would never do that. Since that's exactly what he nearly does in the first story, it's clear that the Doctor has changed.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
So I've started from scratch. On various sites I can find episodes and am now on the First Doctor. I've just been introduced to the Daleks (even then they have splendid lines). The First Doctor isn't the kindly wise old man I thought he was.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
One of Sue's earliest comments on the show was, "They should have called it 'Ian'."

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quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Have you read the brilliant Wife in Space reviews?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:

quote:

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Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
So I've started from scratch. On various sites I can find episodes and am now on the First Doctor. I've just been introduced to the Daleks (even then they have splendid lines). The First Doctor isn't the kindly wise old man I thought he was.

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Have you read the brilliant Wife in Space reviews? One of Sue's earliest comments on the show was, "They should have called it 'Ian'."

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Thanks, man!

Ian's a nice name
 

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Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Inanna:
These might take a little longer than five hours of my time, but I am SO going hunting for deep blue sock yarn.

Tardis Socks

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quote:

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Originally posted by ken:

quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Have you read the brilliant Wife in Space reviews?

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Well. That's just nicked about five hours of my time!

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Just read the first few but will be back as I'm loving his wife, she sounds just like me when my other half is watching 1970s sci-fi. Only I'm usually laughing at the costumes, make up and casual sexism as well as the sets.
Love her comment on the old daleks 'This lot look like you could lift up their lids with a nail file.'
 

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Posted by ACK (# 16756) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ken:
Well. That's just nicked about five hours of my time!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Armin:
ACK - completely agree with you. I've spent hours on that wonderful site (which I discovered through the Ship) and have just got as far as Peter Davidson. Not to mention the new reviews which keep coming out!

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The Doctor Who who married Trillian, and their daughter played the the daughter of the 10th doctor, who she later married...
 

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Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 
Ah, Trilian, a character invented by Douglas Adams, who used to write for the show, and is responsible for introducing Romana II, who used to be married to #4, to her current husband, Richard Dawkins, who's made a cameo himself . . .

Incest on the set much?
 

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Posted by The Great Gumby (# 10989) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Eigon:
How would the Doctor know Oswin was the same person as Clara (if she is)? He only ever heard her voice - only us viewers saw her - and she had been a member of crew on the space ship that crashed, so not remotely Victorian. I don't see that he would connect the two.

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The other argument against Clara being early-Oswin is that she should have recognised him when they met "before". Neither of these is insurmountable, though. Her memories could have been suppressed in much the way she shut out the awful reality, and the Doctor could spend a while feeling like she was familiar in some way before surreptitiously digging around and finding out why. It can be done, and we've had "back-to-front" relationships before, but possibly that makes it a bit too obvious.

I can't believe that the characters aren't related, so I still like the idea that she uploaded her consciousness to the Dalek database and then found or created herself a host of some sort. That opens up the possibility of her being some sort of android/cyborg, and even of not realising it. That would open up some cool SF themes, but it might be a bit risky for a mainstream family show.

There's no way that the characters aren't going to be related in some important way, and that almost certainly means they're the same person (for certain timey-wimey values of "same"). I'm sticking by my twin predictions from the previous thread, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was explained away by some sort of quantum entanglement or similar technobabble.
 

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Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :
 
Giles Frasier on theology in Doctor Who
 

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Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
I am not usually a fan of Giles Fraser, but that article is great and the last few lines are sig-worthy.
 

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Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :
 
I see there is a new personality quiz out, so that you can determine which nuWho companion you are most like.

The selection is limited to Rose, Martha, Donna, Amy, Rory and River. I was rather pleased to discover that I clocked in as a Rory.
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
Apparently I'm Martha. What a relief.
 

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Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :
 
Strictly speaking, if the choice had been available, I strongly suspect I would have registered as Wilf.
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
I was expecting to be Rory but hoping to be River Song. Martha will do me nicely.
 

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Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 
Because I may be the only person on this thread who would get this result, much less admit to it:
Amy
 

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Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 
I appear to be Rose.
 

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Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
I'm Rose - I wanted to be Martha!
 

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Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ariston:
Because I may be the only person on this thread who would get this result, much less admit to it:
Amy

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I'm Rory. Which is funny ...

Really looking forward to tomorrow ...

Tubbs

[ 24. December 2012, 17:01: Message edited by: Tubbs ]
 

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Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :
 
Another Rory checking in ... and yes, also looking forward to tomorrow
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Armin:
I'm Rose - I wanted to be Martha!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:
Want to swop?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Armin:
And how many people got the link back to the Troughton era before the great big nudge in the ribs at the end?

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Er, no. What was that then?
 

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Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :
 
anyone notice the Game of Thrones catchphrase* crossover?


*Winter Is Coming

Oh, and I got bloody Pond on the quiz, just to add to the Christmas sulkiness

[ 25. December 2012, 18:51: Message edited by: Jahlove ]
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 
"Winter is coming" is the blatantly obvious nibble for the modern media-fan. The Tube map and the business card are the slightly subtler titbit for us aged old fans

Chekov's gun was fired at the appropriate moment, and - this being Who - didn't work as expected.

Clara is certainly cute. And although this is far from the first time there was some hint of sexual attraction between the Doctor and one of the series of attractive young women he carries around with him - the trope goes way back to Baker (T) at least and possibly further, although its much more blatant in the revived series - I think this might be the first time it was shown explicitly onstage even before putative new companion becomes official Companion.

Well done for the Doctor not realising who was who till the end.

And fatherly love, or maybe family love, triumphs yet again at Christmas. How many times now?

(And for some reason that website with the quiz wants me to be Rose)

[ 25. December 2012, 19:03: Message edited by: ken ]
 

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Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:

quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Armin:
And how many people got the link back to the Troughton era before the great big nudge in the ribs at the end?

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Er, no. What was that then?

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Rogue:
Perhaps she'll die at the end of every episode.

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So Clara is the new Rory?
 

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Posted by Ronald Binge (# 9002) on :
 
Who do you think will get more traction with the British public - ++Nichols' Vatican scripted thunderbolt against gay marriage, or Madame Vastra's "I'm a lizard woman from the dawn of time, and this is my wife".


 

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Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on :
 
I am Martha!
 

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Posted by Eigon (# 4917) on :
 
Brilliant! Loved the 1967 Tube map, and "Winter is Coming", and the Tardis on a cloud, and the suggestion of Mary Poppins with the umbrella!
Even more obscure - the Latimers live at Darkover House - Marion Zimmer Bradley's series about a world where there's an awful lot of snow!
 

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Posted by Jahlove (# 10290) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by ken:
"Winter is coming" is the blatantly obvious nibble for the modern media-fan. The Tube map and the business card are the slightly subtler titbit for us aged old fans

)

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hmm, GoT is a squillion times better than any of the NuWho stuff - tho I make an exception for Only Human which is outstanding as a piece of drama in its own right, even without the Who connection.

Merry Christmas
Jahlove
(who is so little of a media fan that she can't even remember how to make the tv work, having lost the manual and only sees stuff on inlayer occasionally).
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Eigon:

Even more obscure - the Latimers live at Darkover House - Marion Zimmer Bradley's series about a world where there's an awful lot of snow!

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Darkover? Obscure? You mean the twenty-something volumes of Darkover stories on my shelf are odd?

quote:

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Originally posted by Jahlove:
... hmm, GoT is a squillion times better than any of the NuWho stuff ...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:
When does it all kick off again properly, does anyone know?

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quote:

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Originally posted by ken:

quote:

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jahlove:
... hmm, GoT is a squillion times better than any of the NuWho stuff ...

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Oh no. Oh no no no. Oh no nonono no nononono no nono no...

Game of Thrones is certainly good. I've read all seven or so books that are out so far, and I'm sure I'll re-read them before the next one comes out. And I'll no doubt buy all the TC programs on DVD (only seen the first series so far). But one of the reasons its good is that it pushes a lot of old buttons. Its not very original. Like, say, Harry Potter (though its better than Harry Potter) it partly lives as a kind of version of stories you already know (even if only culturally) Who, even new Who, sometimes, not often but sometimes, makes you go "Gosh! Wow!" in a way that Game of Thrones doesn't and probably can't because its not that kind of thing.

I've read some reviews praising Game of Thrones for its originality, but I suspect that they can only do that because they are not familiar with the sources its playing with (again, very much like Harry Potter). But you don't have to have read or remembered those sources for their echoes to have come down to you through other fictions, and to be awakened by the one you are reading now.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
I do like that little team of his. And, lets face it, a generic Sontaran is as fun to watch as a Cyberman march.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jahlove:
indeed - angst are a real nuisance at picnics.

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and in your pangst.
 

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Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on :
 
I'm Amy. That was a bit of a shock.

Nen - confused about her identity.

[ 26. December 2012, 10:42: Message edited by: Nenya ]
 

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Posted by Smudgie (# 2716) on :
 
Another happy Rory here

I liked the Christmas special, once it got going, though nipping out a couple of times to check on the Christmas Dinner was a bit of a bind! I loved all the subtle references. I think anyone not getting those would miss the largest part of the fun of it.
 

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Posted by leo (# 1458) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Sparrow:
I am Martha!

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quote:

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While occasionally lead by your heart, you have an enormously practical head on your shoulders, and are extraordinarily loyal..........there's little you can't handle.

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
I got the Darkover reference which made me think I was probably missing a bunch more, but it was still quite entertaining even if you didn't get the in-jokes.

In other news, Doctor Who postage stamps will be available in March.

[ 26. December 2012, 14:55: Message edited by: Ariel ]
 

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Posted by St Everild (# 3626) on :
 
Another Rory here...

Unsure about the Christmas episode. Too much soppy stuff for my liking...
 

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Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
I answered honestly and I am Martha
 

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Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :
 
That's where you went wrong To get River Song you have to answer as honestly as River Song would answer.
 

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Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
Disappointed with the Snowmen story itself - seemed rather cursory - but thoroughly enjoyed the banter. The Sontaran was hilarious, he needs a spin-off show with the Silurian and the Silurian's wife.

But the thing that made me laugh the loudest was "It's smaller on the outside".
 

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Posted by Palimpsest (# 16772) on :
 
I was disappointed with the Christmas episode. There were some nice touches, especially the characters, but the story seemed a minor part of the episode, and more of the episode seemed to be a teaser for the next series.
 

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Posted by Athrawes (# 9594) on :
 
I enjoyed that, especially the references to Holmes and Mary Poppins. It will be interesting to see where they take it from here.
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
I thoroughly enjoyed the Christmas episode, but as much for Michael Pickwoad's work as for Steven Moffat's: it looked fantastic. I love the new TARDIS design - far better than anything else we've had since 2005. And Pickwoad does "bleak and Victorian" especially well. I liked Madame Vastra and Jenny - I'd always hoped they might reappear. And I liked Strax, even though I'd expected not to. The business with the memory worm was a cute piece of comedy, very well played. (Is it too much to hope that Vastra, Jenny and Strax might become the eleventh Doctor's UNIT?)

Richard E Grant was brilliant, and I liked the reintroduction of the Great Intelligence. I don't like bringing back old enemies just for the sake of it, but this was something new and worthwhile, and you didn't really need to know the Yeti stories to appreciate it. Having said that, my "bounce excitedly off the sofa" moment was when the Doctor held up the tin, and I saw the map of the Underground on it.

But there was one great big thing wrong with it all for me. Yet again, schmaltzy nuclear family sentimentality conquers all. Enough! We got the message years ago - Moffat gets a kick out of being a dad. Now bloody well get over it and write about something else!
 

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Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Is it too much to hope that Vastra, Jenny and Strax might become the eleventh Doctor's UNIT?)

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dafyd:
I don't think it was nuclear family sentimentality. There was a man, his two children (but no wife), a happily married lesbian couple, and a clone. They were all part of it.

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Okay. So "traditional family sentimentality" then...
 

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Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
balaam:

quote:

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As for Vastra and Jenny, is a relationship lesbian if the couple are from different species?

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Only if the Pope disapproves!
 

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Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 
So, thanks to iTunes, network agreements, time zones, etc., I just now finally got to see this thing.

Meh, not bad. I can't say I was surprised about COO dying—you can't avoid the Internet entirely, y'know—but, to those who think recurring characters who die every episode are boring, go watch a few episodes of South Park. The jokes about "oh my God, they killed Clara! Those bastards!" started almost before the episode had finished on BBC America.

Seeing more of Sontaran with Personality is always amusing. The problem with most Who monsters is that they come in mobs—vast armies of Daleks, Cybermen, Silurians, Sea Devils, Sontarans, Autons, Silents, Judoon, etc. Sure, their leader might get a personality—Davros or the Master—but most of the classic monsters are nameless, faceless hordes, each of which is interchangeable with the next. Seriously, find me a reason why, in most stories from classic Who or earlier seasons of NuHu, you couldn't replace the Daleks with the Cybermen with the Sontarans. Strax and Vastra are both indicative of a strength recent seasons have had—hordes of interchangeable enemies are going away, replaced by actual characters. Heck, even the Daleks had a huminoid spokeswoman in the last season!

This is something the last season has done a pretty good job of so far; for each of the stories, there's a reason why that particular enemy was used. The Daleks were something other than a Big Dumb Horde of Monsters; they were a Big Horde of Monsters with a unique relationship to the Doctor. The angels in the last episode resembled their original incarnation more than the Byzantium version; a creature that works in unique ways, rather than as a generic army of deadly things. It might not be perfect (hi there, "Power of Three!" What a wasted opportunity you were!), but I think things are getting better.
 

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Posted by tessaB (# 8533) on :
 
I enjoyed it a lot, apart from a little moralistic corner that kept saying 'well, he's not acting much like a married man.'
Damn it I like River Song. Don't you go cheating on her Mr. Smith
 

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Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ariston:
most of the classic monsters are nameless, faceless hordes, each of which is interchangeable with the next. Seriously, find me a reason why, in most stories from classic Who or earlier seasons of NuHu, you couldn't replace the Daleks with the Cybermen with the Sontarans.

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quote:

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Originally posted by tessaB:
I enjoyed it a lot, apart from a little moralistic corner that kept saying 'well, he's not acting much like a married man.'
Damn it I like River Song. Don't you go cheating on her Mr. Smith

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dafyd:
The question is does death dissolve marriage if the one party dies before they get married in the other party's timeline?

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quote:

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Originally posted by tessaB:
I enjoyed it a lot, apart from a little moralistic corner that kept saying 'well, he's not acting much like a married man.'
Damn it I like River Song. Don't you go cheating on her Mr. Smith

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ariston:
Because, come to think of it, where is River? Weren't she and the Doctor running off to explore the universe together at the end of the last half-season? Wasn't there something about her never letting him be alone? And yet, there he is, alone . . . and not exploring squat. The TARDIS is practically wearing mourning garb. It's dark, industrial, and more like the old First Doctor interior than anything we've seen in a very, very long time. Sure, he's distraught over Amy and Rory, his running off to be the Doctor may have been a rebound run off, but he was still doing what the Doctor does best—explore things.

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From the redesign of TARDIS, I am assuming Quite Some Length Of Time has passed since we last saw the Doctor. Lots of stuff could have happened.

When the 10th first met River she told him that the last time she saw "her" Doctor they went to a concert, he cried and gave her a sonic screwdriver (which, of course, is what ultimately allowed her memory imprint to be saved in the Library). It is possible that the 11th has already done that--while we were led to believe that his deep mourning at the start of this episode is because Amy & Rory are happily living out their lives in early 20th century New York, it may be that he was actually grieving the loss of River.

That would actually make more sense than being upset that Amy and Rory lived out long and happy lives together.
 

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Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :
 
Would the Doctor not give River the sonic because if he doesn't he knows he will see her again?
 

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Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on :
 
I thought the doctor being married to Amy's daughter was one of the silliest of storylines and like to pretend it never happened. IMHO. YMMV.

Nen - good at denial.
 

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Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by The Rogue:
Would the Doctor not give River the sonic because if he doesn't he knows he will see her again?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Hedgehog:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ariston:
Because, come to think of it, where is River? Weren't she and the Doctor running off to explore the universe together at the end of the last half-season? Wasn't there something about her never letting him be alone? And yet, there he is, alone . . . and not exploring squat. The TARDIS is practically wearing mourning garb. It's dark, industrial, and more like the old First Doctor interior than anything we've seen in a very, very long time. Sure, he's distraught over Amy and Rory, his running off to be the Doctor may have been a rebound run off, but he was still doing what the Doctor does best—explore things.

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From the redesign of TARDIS, I am assuming Quite Some Length Of Time has passed since we last saw the Doctor. Lots of stuff could have happened.

When the 10th first met River she told him that the last time she saw "her" Doctor they went to a concert, he cried and gave her a sonic screwdriver (which, of course, is what ultimately allowed her memory imprint to be saved in the Library). It is possible that the 11th has already done that--while we were led to believe that his deep mourning at the start of this episode is because Amy & Rory are happily living out their lives in early 20th century New York, it may be that he was actually grieving the loss of River.

That would actually make more sense than being upset that Amy and Rory lived out long and happy lives together.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:
Love Madame Vastra, I think her and Jennie need their own spin off I bought my eldest lots of Doctor Who figures for Christmas last year and was disappointed not to be able to get her for my desk

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Rogue:
A Good Man Goes to War

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Thanks!
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by balaam:

quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Is it too much to hope that Vastra, Jenny and Strax might become the eleventh Doctor's UNIT?)

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As they are featured in the "What happens next" segment at the end of the show you could have your wish.

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That was a bit eagle-eyed, balaam. I had to watch it again twice to notice that!

A friend of mine said yesterday he thought that "I'm a lizard woman from the dawn of time, and this is my wife" is one of the best lines ever delivered in a tv drama.
 

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Posted by Eigon (# 4917) on :
 
I love Madame Vastra's line, too!
And today I discovered a blog called Doctor Her, which is a feminist view of Doctor Who, and has a wonderful review of The Snowmen (under the title "My bustle's stuck").
 

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Posted by M. (# 3291) on :
 
It does bug me that the Doctor recognised Clara's/Oswin's voice. It had bugged me in 'Asylum of the Daleks' that she had a normal voice, as surely it should have been dalekised, like the rest of her.

M.

(It also slightly bugs me that I think of 'Oswin' as a man's name. Not a very common one though, I'm not sure where I know it from.)
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
Brother Oswin, who was the young novice who helped Brother Cadfael with his herbs in the TV series, perhaps? That's where I know it from.
 

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Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on :
 
Did you notice Clara Oswin OSWALD's birthday, as on her tombstone?


 

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Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :
 
Yes - 23 November, wasn't it...?
 

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Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ronald Binge:
Who do you think will get more traction with the British public - ++Nichols' Vatican scripted thunderbolt against gay marriage, or Madame Vastra's "I'm a lizard woman from the dawn of time, and this is my wife".

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quote:

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Originally posted by Pine Marten:
Yes - 23 November, wasn't it...?

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quote:

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Originally posted by M.:
It does bug me that the Doctor recognised Clara's/Oswin's voice. It had bugged me in 'Asylum of the Daleks' that she had a normal voice, as surely it should have been dalekised, like the rest of her.
M.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ken:

quote:

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Originally posted by Pine Marten:
Yes - 23 November, wasn't it...?

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Was it? What year?

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quote:

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Brother Oswin, who was the young novice who helped Brother Cadfael with his herbs in the TV series, perhaps? That's where I know it from.

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quote:

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I think they can get away with that as the Dr also sees 'her' talking to him, so her subconscious is clearly doing a fair bit of on the fly fakery.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Yeah, first I thought "OH, SHIT!" when I read that, but that would be '63.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:
It's the Oswald bit that's bugging me. I keep thinking of Oswald Bastable. But I can't see any immediate connection.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Pine Marten:

quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Yeah, first I thought "OH, SHIT!" when I read that, but that would be '63.

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Yes, I realised the year was wrong but still wonder if there is anything to it...?

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Probably a coincidence, but Nov. 23, 1966 would have fallen about half way through "The Power of the Daleks"--which is to say, the first story of the Second Doctor.
 

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Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
The very first episode of Doctor Who went on air the day after JFK was killed. Does that help at all?
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 


...no.



NO! It doesn't help at all! NO!!
 

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Posted by Chapelhead (# 21) on :
 
Will Clara turn out to be the figure on the grassy knoll? Surely that would be jumping the shark, even for Doctor Who.

[ 02. January 2013, 09:15: Message edited by: Chapelhead ]
 

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Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :
 
Chapelhead:

quote:

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Originally posted by Hedgehog:

quote:

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Originally posted by Pine Marten:

quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Yeah, first I thought "OH, SHIT!" when I read that, but that would be '63.

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Yes, I realised the year was wrong but still wonder if there is anything to it...?

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Probably a coincidence, but Nov. 23, 1966 would have fallen about half way through "The Power of the Daleks"--which is to say, the first story of the Second Doctor.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Armin:
The very first episode of Doctor Who went on air the day after JFK was killed.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Pine Marten:

quote:

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Originally posted by Hedgehog:
Probably a coincidence, but Nov. 23, 1966 would have fallen about half way through "The Power of the Daleks"--which is to say, the first story of the Second Doctor.

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Wasn't the Second Doctor the one who battled the Great Intelligence? Is there a link here with Daleks/Clara/Intelligence? Or are we just going round and round here ending up our own exhaust?

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That's when the story was broadcast, but in the internal chronology the story that's going on at the time is possibly "The Evil of the Daleks". Which is often voted the best Who ever - and no-one can dispute that because its one of the lost stories so no-one who didn't see it at the time can know how good it was...

It was shown in May 1967 but set starting in July 1966. We know the date (and for historically significant dates 20th July beats 23rd November - even though it wasn't so important yet - coincidence? ) because 20th July 1966 is "The Doctor's Busiest Day" - it is the end of the story called "The War Machines" where the Doctory picks up Ben and Polly as companions in London, "The Faceless Ones" takes place entirely on that day, mostly at Gatwick Airport - at the end of which Ben and Polly return to take their lives on the day they left - and the Tardis is stolen and carried off on a lorry - and that's the start of the story "The Evil of the Daleks". And the internal timeline of that story goes on for some weeks or months so its quite possible that it still going on at the end of November.

Can there be spoilers for a story no-one will ever see?

Anyway, in "Evil of the Daleks" the the Tardis has been stolen by so that the Doctor will follow it back to an antique shop run by which is connected by a sort of time tunnel built by the Victorian-era Professor Waterfield and his assistant Maxtible to the same building 100 years in the past where Daleks are waiting to capture the Doctor and Jamie. Waterford is going along with the scheme because the Daleks are threatening to torture his daughter Victoria.


So they are stuck without the Tardis in 1866. And there they are persuaded to assist the Daleks in isolating the "Human Factor", that is the personality traits that Daleks have lost, and in growing three new experimental Daleks called Alpha, Beta, and Omega (Wikipedia tells me, my memory wants it to be Delta of course) And so the Doctor helps transform three new Daleks into rather cute friendly humanised Daleks. That want to play with trains.

Of course it all goes downhill from there fast as various Evil Plots are revealed and the Doctor and Jamie and the Victoria travel to Skaro to fae the Emperor Dalek.

So sometime in late 1866 the Doctor and Jamie are in Professor Waterford's house just outside London with three baby Daleks and fixed link time transporters to 1966 and to far future Skaro.

I'm pretty sure Stephen Moffat knows that...
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
Such geekdom. I never thought it possible outside Doctor Who fan sites. I'm so proud of us all. So very proud.

Anyhoo, the interweb is thrumming with adulation for Strax, the Sontaran in The Snowmen. And since it's still technically Christmas, we can still enjoy some Sontaran carol singing.
 

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Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
Loved Strax. Is it my imagination or does he sound more Welsh now?
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Ken just made my head explode. Actually explode. Send flowers.
 

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Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 
Oh yes. Mention of the lost episodes that Jeremy Bentham told us were The Best Ever Made, and you're wrong if you disagree with His opinion.

And then we actually got to see The Celestial Toymaker and The Gunslingers. Precedent tells me that episode's absolute crap and there's a reason we'd all forgotten The Great Intelligence.

So the fanbois get their obscure token reference, while the rest of us get a practically new enemy, one without cyberman/dalek baggage. Everyone's happy. Now, if only they can bring back the Mara . . .
 

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Posted by jedijudy (# 333) on :
 
For Kelly.
 

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Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ariston:
Oh yes. Mention of the lost episodes that Jeremy Bentham told us were The Best Ever Made, and you're wrong if you disagree with His opinion.

And then we actually got to see The Celestial Toymaker and The Gunslingers.

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I'm now becoming thoroughly Who-ish by hunting down all the 1960s Who, using Loose Cannon reconstructions as appropriate. I just finished the Hartnell Era last week.

And I'm also reading a few blogs as I go, partly to see if my reactions are the same as those of other people. And it was particularly amusing to see the general chorus of "what the hell was Jeremy on when we declared The Celestial Toymaker a classic?"

And one of the blogs had some great insights about the whole nature of fandom in the 80s and 90s when it was impossible for people to get ANY of that material for themselves, rather than read about it in books written by 'experts'.

I'm heartily thankful to that teenage boy who recorded all the audio. Even if the pictures don't move, having the script and dialogue intact really does enable the stories to be experienced to a high degree. Which is why I know that I won't care very much if someone finds another episode of The Celestial Toymaker, but that if someone finds a piece of The Myth Makers or The Massacre I'll be constantly checking for news of when I can see it.
 

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Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ariston:
Seriously, find me a reason why, in most stories from classic Who or earlier seasons of NuHu, you couldn't replace the Daleks with the Cybermen with the Sontarans.

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quote:

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Originally posted by jedijudy:
For Kelly.

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Bless.
 

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Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Such geekdom. I never thought it possible outside Doctor Who fan sites. I'm so proud of us all. So very proud.

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I love the Ship so much... ken:

quote:

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Anyhoo, the interweb is thrumming with adulation for Strax, the Sontaran in The Snowmen. And since it's still technically Christmas, we can still enjoy some Sontaran carol singing.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ken:
So sometime in late 1866 the Doctor and Jamie are in Professor Waterford's house just outside London with three baby Daleks and fixed link time transporters to 1966 and to far future Skaro.

I'm pretty sure Stephen Moffat knows that...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
... and just in time to miss wishing the show a happy 49th birthday!...

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quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
I've just watched The Tenth Planet a couple of days ago. And by far the most striking and chilling part of the story is the 2nd episode, where the Cybermen truly behave in a logical, uncaring Cyberman fashion that is completely different to the behaviour of Daleks, the previous iconic villains. The Cybermen aren't a threat to humanity because they want to destroy us all, they're a threat to humanity because logic dictates that being a Cyberman is a better option and they're not interested in whether it FEELS like a GOOD option.

I'm yet to see the extent to which the Patrick Troughton Cybermen stories will live up to this or completely trash it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
I'll be watching 'em all regardless. Although some of those Loose Cannon reconstructions are harder to track down than others, I'll be relentless!

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We want reviews!
 

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Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
You might have said that before I got partway through Season 4...
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
You might have said that before I got partway through Season 4...

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Well I was just thinking of reviews for the Troughton Cyberstories. But if you're offering ...
 

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Posted by Snags (# 15351) on :
 
We may have Gadgets for God, but it appears that the well-healed fanboi can now start their own Gadgets for Whovians.

And to think I paid less than that for some Wharfdales years ago
 

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Posted by Ceannaideach (# 12007) on :
 
And just to bump the thread it looksss like the Ice Warriors are coming back!
 

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Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
Only a few days ago I was reading a blog post about how there's only a point to bringing back iconic Doctor Who creatures if you have some idea what to do with them, and what makes them different from other Doctor Who creatures.

Here's hoping. Although if it involves Mark Gatiss I'm worried on the basis of what he did to the Daleks...
 

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Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
Only a few days ago I was reading a blog post about how there's only a point to bringing back iconic Doctor Who creatures if you have some idea what to do with them, and what makes them different from other Doctor Who creatures.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
You might have said that before I got partway through Season 4...

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Well I was just thinking of reviews for the Troughton Cyberstories. But if you're offering ...

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quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
Only a few days ago I was reading a blog post about how there's only a point to bringing back iconic Doctor Who creatures if you have some idea what to do with them, and what makes them different from other Doctor Who creatures.

Here's hoping. Although if it involves Mark Gatiss I'm worried on the basis of what he did to the Daleks...

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quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
Why bring them back if 'nobody cares' about them? What's cool about bringing them back, then? It becomes utterly vacuous name-dropping. And while I don't mind the occasional random mention of a creature from the Doctor's past adventures (it can be quite entertaining spotting them, especially now that I've gone back to watch the 1960s stuff), actually depicting those creatures on screen requires more effort than that.

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quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
You might have said that before I got partway through Season 4...

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Well I was just thinking of reviews for the Troughton Cyberstories. But if you're offering ...

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The Tomb of the Cybermen on the weekend. Completely unimpressed. Maybe it's just because they were moving rather than being reconstructed, but some of the acting was TERRIBLE. It was also rather racist and the overall plot was lacking sense. One of the worst stories in a while.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
The Tomb of the Cybermen on the weekend. Completely unimpressed.

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Tell it like it is, orfeo! It's far from being one of my favourites - I think Troughton is the only thing
worth watching in it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
While I'm living so far in the past, I think it's worth saying that I thought the script of The Power of the Daleks was wonderful and it went to the top of the list of lost stories that I would really love to see being recovered.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
As to the Ice Warriors, they too were in danger of becoming generic villains until The Curse of Peladon, where the twist was that they were good guys. But they're a complex race, with a strong class structure, a warrior ethic, and a sense of honour.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
While I'm living so far in the past, I think it's worth saying that I thought the script of The Power of the Daleks was wonderful and it went to the top of the list of lost stories that I would really love to see being recovered.

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Even as a reconstruction it makes Victory of the Daleks seem pointless.

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quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
especially now that I've gone back to watch the 1960s stuff

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quote:

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Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Thanks for the links.

I have also now heard that the vaseline story isn't true.

I finished that episode last night. It was good in terms of the direction and effects, but was let down by the script. That, and I can't work out what role those armadillo-moving-like-they-were-wearing-sleeping-bags things played in the plot, other than to enable Ian to get out of that hole he fell down. It's not as if Ian came up after all that tunneling, climbing and death of that armadillo thing towards that spider thing to go "Dan ah!" and kill it. No, he came up, made his appearance to the others known, and started to fall down and played no further role.

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It's a long time since I read it, but I think the novelisation handles this better than the tv version (and the special effects are better ). IIRC, Strutton's idea was that the Optera (called "pygmy Menoptera" in the book) were Menoptera who had taken to living underground when the Animus invaded Vortis. They'd lost their wings and almost reverted to a larval form. Part of the denoument of the book is the reconciliation of all the species on Vortis - Optera, Menoptera, Zarbi and venom grubs - who will all have a part in the rebuilding of their planet.

Still, you're through it! The next story, The Crusade, is widely regarded as a classic. Two episodes still exist, the other two can be got as reconstructions. The excellent Julian Glover plays King Richard, and it's written by David Whitaker, who was also respnsible for both of Troughton's Dalek stories.
 

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Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :
 
Thanks for that. That makes sense.

I'm watching all the episodes online. So far I've managed with all of them, apart from half of an episode of Dalek invasion of earth. Well I say all, I watched Marco Polo with photos (though there's an animation version of the first episode online), as I did with part of "The reign of terror".

Unlike the wifeinspace reviewers, I liked "The edge of destruction", by the way. For me it brought a nice psychological aspect and dark element to it, and the directions were good. It seemed more like the Doctor Who I remembered of the 1980s.
 

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Posted by Rev per Minute (# 69) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Still, you're through it! The next story, The Crusade, is widely regarded as a classic. Two episodes still exist, the other two can be got as reconstructions. The excellent Julian Glover plays King Richard, and it's written by David Whitaker, who was also respnsible for both of Troughton's Dalek stories.

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quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo: [in hell]
...
And in 1967 it was still apparently perfectly acceptable to air a story (Tomb of the Cybermen) where it's rather obvious that all the nasty characters have coloured skin and all the good characters are white. This is the same show that in some other stories (The War Machines from 1966 stands out) was tremendously keen to show how hip and aligned with youth culture it was.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Kaftan and Klieg to be "foreign". If they'd had pale skins and Birmingham accents.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jay-Emm:

quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Kaftan and Klieg to be "foreign". If they'd had pale skins and Birmingham accents.

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That's what I'd missed (that and the qb tag). As far as I could tell in B&W they do have pale skin. Even knowing, it's quite hard to see.

Though once on the secret, you can start to see how what I saw as 'waspy social darwinist with nazi overtones' was actually (the racist) 'inscrutable oriental' theme.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Rosa Winkel: I don't think I've ever seen such a quantity of sustained positivity towards The Space Museum. Brilliant! Thank you. (I might even watch it now - I never even finished the novelisation.)

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quote:

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Originally posted by balaam:
Meanhile, back in the world of NuWho. Jenna-Louise Coleman, on last Friday's The Last Leg on Channel 4 revealed that the new series (or second part of the series) is getting well on the way to finished.

Two click rule observed, but not work safe due to strong language.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
That's what I'd missed (that and the qb tag). As far as I could tell in B&W they do have pale skin. Even knowing, it's quite hard to see.
...

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I'm pretty sure the woman who plays Kaftan is wearing dark makeup - it is difficult to tell from a B&W picture - but I'm not sure about the man playing Klieg. Similarly, it sounds like she's affecting something like a South Asian accent, whereas his sounds more Eastern European and genuine. I'll do some checking when I have a moment.

The character Toberman, of course, doesn't speak, is characterised by an unthinking outlook and by great physical strength - and is black. Even in 1967, I honestly don't know how the BBC got away with it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gill H:
I see 'Wife in Space' are up to a guilty pleasure of mine, The Happiness Patrol.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

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Originally posted by Gill H:
I see 'Wife in Space' are up to a guilty pleasure of mine, The Happiness Patrol.

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You don't need to feel guilty about The Happiness Patrol. It's got Sylvester McCoy talking down a sniper, and an evil Bertie Bassett. How can that be bad?

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I second the not guilty plea - if nothing else it has Sheila Hancock in it. Also, it's not inherently bad, it just could have been better...
 

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Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
Sylvester McCoy? Stop giving me spoilers for circa 2018

Meanwhile... is anyone else heartily sick of endless reports about who will or won't be involved in Doctor Who's 50th Anniversary on-screen? I'm signed up to David Tennant's Facebook page, and not only am I getting David Tennant-related remarks on the topic, I'm getting John Barrowman and Freema Agyeman and lord-knows-who-else comments about I haven't been asked, or I can't tell you even if I am, etc etc etc.
 

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Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
Wife in Space recently reviewed Remembrance of the Daleks, the 25th Anniversary special. I realised I'd never seen this, bought it, and loved it. It shows what a good Doctor McCoy could be, when given a decent script, and there are so many references to Who-history that the whole thing is fanboy heaven. If the 50th is half as good I will be happy; what I fear is getting a huge pile of all the monsters who has ever appeared in the series. I don't want something big and gimmicky - we've had those at the end of every season of Nu-Who - I want something subtle I have to think about.
 

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Posted by The Great Gumby (# 10989) on :
 
I remember Remembrance from first time around. I thought it was good at the time, but that might be youthful exuberance. Just the Dalek elevating itself up the stairs was a genuinely mind-blowing experience at that age.

And I agree about the 50th anniversary, but I have a horrible feeling that it'll involve lots of CGI and tons of monsters, on the basis that it'll act as an insurance policy. They'll probably try to make it profound as well, but for extra credit rather than the main attraction.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
They'll probably try to make it profound as well, but for extra credit rather than the main attraction.

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Well put.

Which would be a huge waste of the talent they have available to them.
 

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Posted by The Great Gumby (# 10989) on :
 
I think that's right, but the BBC approach will almost certainly be that to keep the monsters in the box would be a waste of all the CGI available to them. Being the BBC, they'll probably have mapped it out on a decision tree or some other management bollocks.

If they have lots of whizzbangs and monsters, viewer response will be good among young children and a lot of adults. If attempted profundity comes off, it will be elevated to consistently high scores across the board, and if not, it's still good enough to keep most of the audience very happy.

But if monsters are dropped or minimised, everything rests on the execution. If done well, it would possibly be the best outcome of all, but if it didn't quite work, it would be a disaster, with lots of "WTF?", shouty hatchet jobs in the Daily Mail, questions in parliament, the fall of the monarchy, the end of civilisation as we know it...

Sorry, got slightly carried away. But that's the risk-averse way they'll be thinking, and it would be a brave exec (possibly even in the Sir Humphrey sense) to take a chance on such a high-profile event.
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Wife in Space recently reviewed Remembrance of the Daleks, the 25th Anniversary special. I realised I'd never seen this, bought it, and loved it. It shows what a good Doctor McCoy could be, when given a decent script, and there are so many references to Who-history that the whole thing is fanboy heaven.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Wife in Space recently reviewed Remembrance of the Daleks, the 25th Anniversary special.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ken:
I think the The McCoy/Aldred combination was one of the better ones in Who history. In fact, in some ways, McCoys last series may have been the best run of consecutive good stories in the history of the programme.

---

I'd say Fenric is an even better candidate for best Doctor Who story than Ghost Light. (Although personally I'd go for Remembrance every time.) Battlefield doesn't quite work, but it's aiming high enough that it ends up as very good. You can extend the run of good stories with Greatest Show in the Galaxy if you're willing to step over the season boundary.
 

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Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
I've seen quite a lot of commentary praising the quality of the last Who stories of the 80s. I'll hold on to that if plowing through some of the earlier ones proves dire.

I finally have a reconstruction of The Abominable Snowmen to watch, so Season 5 back in the 60s can continue.
 

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Posted by tessaB (# 8533) on :
 
30th March!
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by tessaB:
30th March!

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quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
Watching the Ice Warriors' first appearance right now as it happens.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
Watching the Ice Warriors' first appearance right now as it happens.

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How was it? I think it's the best Ice Warrior story (so far), but mainly for the excellent performance by Peter Barkworth as Leader Clent. That said, I do have a soft spot for The Curse of Peladon - as ravening mythical beasts go, Aggedor is so cute!

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I quite liked it. And yes, the acting of the guest stars is good (heck, so soon after Tomb of the Cybermen it's heavenly ), with Barkworth a particular standout.

EDIT: I wish people wouldn't call these stories 'base under siege' all the time, though. In this one there simply wasn't a 'siege', unless they mean by the glaciers!

[ 14. March 2013, 09:23: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 

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Posted by The Great Gumby (# 10989) on :
 
Matt Smith promises that fans will not be disappointed by the 50th anniversary story. He would say that, wouldn't he?

Nevertheless, I have to admit that his description of the script sounds pretty good to me, sketchy as it is.
 

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Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
I wish people wouldn't call these stories 'base under siege' all the time, though. In this one there simply wasn't a 'siege', unless they mean by the glaciers!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
I wish people wouldn't call these stories 'base under siege' all the time, though. In this one there simply wasn't a 'siege', unless they mean by the glaciers!

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I think it is a genre, and therefore you've got to call it something. (Group of people in an isolated setting, menaced by a group of monsters.) I gather the first real example was The Moonbase, and one of the characters says, 'we're under siege'. So that's where the name comes from.

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quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
It was even stupider when I saw Tomb of the Cybermen called a 'base under siege'. What base? They've just walked into the monster's home!

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quote:

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Originally posted by doubtingthomas:
Small change of subject/era, but here's a little prequel for the new series:

http://youtu.be/2IROtC6cAT4

enjoy

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quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:

quote:

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Originally posted by doubtingthomas:
Small change of subject/era, but here's a little prequel for the new series:

http://youtu.be/2IROtC6cAT4

enjoy

---

Will you just look at Matt Smith's performance in that clip! It's beautiful! He's brilliant when he's acting with children - so generous and genuine.

---

Oh, that was so lovely!
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Speechless.

(Oh, except exactly what Adeodatus said.)

[ 24. March 2013, 00:49: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
 

---

Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
While we're waiting ... anyone else enjoyed listening to The recent radio adaptation of Neverwhere ? Superb.
 

---

Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by doubtingthomas:
Small change of subject/era, but here's a little prequel for the new series:

http://youtu.be/2IROtC6cAT4

enjoy

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gill H:
While we're waiting ... anyone else enjoyed listening to The recent radio adaptation of Neverwhere ? Superb.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Does everyone know he's got another Doctor Who episode coming up? With a returning enemy ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sparrow:
Has anyone bought the new commemorative Royal Mail stamp set? There are loads of them!

---

I'd be awfully thrilled if somebody in England were to send me a postcard or letter with one or two of those on it!!

[ 27. March 2013, 15:22: Message edited by: Trudy Scrumptious ]
 

---

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
Footling around on the Royal Mail website, look what I found.

Oh my!
 

---

Posted by Lord Jestocost (# 12909) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Footling around on the Royal Mail website, look what I found.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lord Jestocost:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Footling around on the Royal Mail website, look what I found.

---

Acrylic? But the original was knitted by Madame Nostradamus!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Footling around on the Royal Mail website, look what I found.

Oh my!

---

And I can't even just look at it!
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Footling around on the Royal Mail website, look what I found.

Oh my!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Footling around on the Royal Mail website, look what I found.

Oh my!

---

Well, we can only guess; the web page has been amended as "product not available to view".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
As for me I'm saving up to buy this, which I'm proud to say is made by a company in my hometown. I've gotten as far as trying it on but not as far as affording it yet.

---

Ooh. Me want one. I've been good, I deserve a present!
 

---

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
Nice coat. And it is still quite chilly, Hedgehog (in Manchester, anyway. Not sure about Delaware).

Meanwhile, a dire warning has appeared on twitter and youtube...
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
I am so bummed. I have a group presentation due on Monday, so my non-Easter parts of the weekend will be taken up working with my group. So. I'm gonna miss the premiere and color-commentary fest.

(I'll catch up.)

Thanks again for that clip, doubtingthomas-- you have no idea the joy it brings.

In fact I'm gonna say something-- those of you who know me from facebook may have participated on my recent discussion of what constitutes a mensch, and what deep respect I have to have accumulated to call someone a mensch. Well, I think I have now found a term that trumps that-- Kid Person.

Most people like kids, it's not about that. Most people are fairly good with kids, if they make the effort, so it's not about that, either. But some folk seem to have a built in instinct for how to approach kids, and a level of respect and understanding for them that is above the ordinary. It's more than having fun with them, or being nice to them, it's understanding when to give them a hand-up, when to lay down a boundary, and when to step back and make them take the reins. It's giving them the same respect and camaraderie you would give any peer,without forgetting your responsibility as an adult to support and mentor them.(This could be in an acting scene or doing a math problem or building a lego house)

So, short version. Smith strikes me as a Kid Person. And in my opinion, you could get a dozen BAFTAS, Oscars, whatever and never trump that.

End fangirl Gush of the Day. Off to do schoolwork. Have fun y'all!
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
OK quick add, if the Equality meme going around on FB just now is actually a quote from him, he just got "Mensch" as well.
 

---

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :
 
First it was don't blink, now it's don't click.

No spoilers till the US have watched.
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
If people want to discuss the most recent episode, they should feel free to do so. It's out and in the public domain and is going to be discussed in a variety of places from now on anyway. If shipmates don't want to know what happens, they just need to avoid the thread. If those who have seen the episode and want to discuss it in detail are feeling sufficiently altruistic, a post can always be prefaced with "Spoilers", but IMO it would be unfair to put a stop on discussion for 24 hours or more.

I thought it was a pretty good episode. Sufficiently creepy to give that frisson, but not creepy enough to tip the balance. I wasn't keen on the flirting, though - really don't want to see this going the same way as almost all the other female companions.
 

---

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
Will I enjoyed this episode. I have a techie problem that clicking on an unknown wifi provider is pretty stupid whatever. Apart from that, there were some interesting and challenging ideas explored.

Oh, and it was fun.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
(sigh)

Gotta say it, I wish they would consider the fact that little girls watch this show, too. Little boys watch this show and hope one day they will have pilot a TARDIS and have wild adventures; over and over again little girls get told that the best they can hope for is maybe one day they'll be cute enough that someone else will drag them along for his adventures.

Girls deserve better.They definitely need more.
 

---

Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :
 
It was fun.

People who click on unknown wi-fi connections may deserve everything they get but many computer users just don't understand what they might be doing. These are the same people who click on links in emails. I have had to sort this kind of mess out before. Fortunately no souls were lost.

I would like to know how the Doctor rode the motor bike through the Tardis control room. I don't suppose the floor was very grippy. Or perhaps the Tardis had some trickery which made it easy. There is a Tardis story later this season which I am looking forward to.
 

---

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
So it would appear that this season is going to have a big bad guy after all. I must say I don't mind too much, because it does exist in multiple time zones. I hope he/it'll turn out to be behind the Silence as well?
 

---

Posted by soggy_amphibian (# 2487) on :
 
They're really on a Second Doctor kick, aren't they? The Great Intelligence in the Christmas special and this one, Ice Warriors upcoming.
I am going to put my prophetic reputation on the line and say they're not going to wrap up the Great Intelligence without an appearance of the Yeti.
 

---

Posted by ACK (# 16756) on :
 
Warning - slightly spoilery.
The question I was left with is, who was the girl in the shop that gave Clara the phone number of the Tardis? Was it just a throw-away line to explain why she had the number and will never be referenced again, or will it appear to have more behind it than that? Since this is Steven Moffat and not Steven Erikson I suspect the first option.
I need to watch the episode again to get all the nuances - house full of family not the best time to watch something that threw so many things at you in so small a space of time.
 

---

Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
I suspect it is significant. The Doctor was quite curious as to who the woman was.

Given what we know about recent companions returning for the 50th, there is an obvious contender for a woman in a shop...
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gill H:
Given what we know about recent companions returning for the 50th, there is an obvious contender for a woman in a shop...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rogue:
I may have missed something from a long time ago but when did the Tardis acquire its St John Ambulance sticker?

Please feel free to mock me if it has always been there.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rogue:
I may have missed something from a long time ago but when did the Tardis acquire its St John Ambulance sticker?

Please feel free to mock me if it has always been there.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eigon:
Give the poor Doctor a break, Mudfrog!
He's been traumatised by the Time War as 9, gone through all that tragedy as 10, and the loss of Amy and Rory turned him into a temporary hermit. Let the poor man have a bit of fun for a while!

---

OK

 

---

Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
Random thoughts

• I was half expecting him to get out a flaming chain and and lasso his way into that office, a la Ghost Rider.
• You know, its really hard to take Richard E. Grant seriously as a bad dude. The sneer has too much history.
• The flirting bit. Its getting dangerously close to treating all young women as sex objects. I know its liberating compared to how people were treated before but its strikes me as sexist. Why..well....
• More on that. I agree with Kelly. They never treat women companions as an equal, or even as a warrior like Leela. They are all puzzles. I was hoping they would treat her as an equal.
• Well at least we know she ain't gonna be Saint Rose.
• Good acting all around
• Neat story, but the idea that the Doctor would acquiesce and seek out what amounts to that much death, without some acknowledgement, indicates to me that they threw that line in about "so many people going to die" as an afterthought. Once again, the psychic pain of massive amounts of death not thought through whereas the psychic pain of one death is always overblown. Moffat needs to get out more.
• I give it a 7. Hopefully it will not bog down.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gill H:
Given what we know about recent companions returning for the 50th, there is an obvious contender for a woman in a shop...

---

If that's who I think you may be thinking of, she said when asked by journalists that it was a nice idea but she hadn't been asked to be in it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rogue:
I would like to know how the Doctor rode the motor bike through the Tardis control room. I don't suppose the floor was very grippy. Or perhaps the Tardis had some trickery which made it easy. There is a Tardis story later this season which I am looking forward to.

---

Of course it does, it's a Tardis motorbike...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Looking forward to Oswin being less the simple-girly and more the I-am-women-see-me-roar she was in earlier episodes.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
Random thoughts

• The flirting bit. Its getting dangerously close to treating all young women as sex objects. I know its liberating compared to how people were treated before but its strikes me as sexist. Why..well....
• More on that. I agree with Kelly. They never treat women companions as an equal, or even as a warrior like Leela. They are all puzzles. I was hoping they would treat her as an equal.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mudfrog:
What I miss is the immense sadness and tragedy of the tennant years - the loss of Rose, the wiping of Donna's memory, even the very last moments of Tennant's incarnation: 'I don't want to go.'

I like this new Doctor but he needs to experience some real heartbreaking tragedy.

---

Cut him a break - he must be rejoicing at being free from Amy!

ETA: "Donna was very much the Doctor's equal"???? What? Martha maybe, but Donna had to get superpowered to match him.

[ 31. March 2013, 15:20: Message edited by: Robert Armin ]
 

---

Posted by Og: Thread Killer (# 3200) on :
 
Donna was an equal but not treated that way. My wife likes the the Library episodes, but I shudder at the unfairness of the ending. (And secretly wonder what River Song would have been like with Kate Winslet)

And what they did to that character at the end, that was brutal, cruel, and unnecessary (unless you are Russel Davies and endlessly attempting to out Joss Whedon Joss Whedon)

They don't let women companions be people.


And the guy companionss, with the exception of Captain Jack, are all a degree of separation from the Doctor and fools. The nadir was St. Rose where she openly laughed at her ex boyfriend, who was a poor guy trying. They attempted to fix that with Mr. and Mrs. mum of the Doctor's wife but still couldn't get the bumbling man thing out of the way.

Makes me almost pine for Adric.
 

---

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
How about Jamie? He wasn't the Doctor's equal (short of Romana, who could be?) but he was a real mate. I wish we could have a nu-Who companion who is a mate rather than a flirt-object.
 

---

Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :
 
I saw Donna as an equal. She didn't flirt with him, she was actually repulsed by the idea. She spoke her mind to him to the extent that she acted as his conscience in that episode with the spidery thing ( sorry, no memory of titles). She was morally superior to him then.
 

---

Posted by doubtingthomas (# 14498) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:

ETA: "Donna was very much the Doctor's equal"???? What? Martha maybe, but Donna had to get superpowered to match him.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:

And what they did to that character at the end, that was brutal, cruel, and unnecessary (unless you are Russel Davies and endlessly attempting to out Joss Whedon Joss Whedon)

---

quote:

---

They don't let women companions be people.

And the guy companionss, with the exception of Captain Jack, are all a degree of separation from the Doctor and fools.

---

In other words, they don't let any companions be people - that's a form of equality I suppose...
(although I don't think it is entirely true, for either gender)

[ 31. March 2013, 15:50: Message edited by: doubtingthomas ]
 

---

Posted by Late Paul (# 37) on :
 
It was OK. 6.5/10 (OK 7, I'm feeling generous)

It felt very fillery, there was very little plot and the resolution of the threat was very simple. Which is all fine if you have something else, like some screen candy special effects (the kind of thing in the trailer for next week) or some great mono-/dia-logue or something. It did make me remember that the first copy of 2000AD I ever bought had a Judge Dredd story with bikers riding up the side of a sky-scraper.

And it really irked me the way they kept referring to something being in or having taken over "the wifi" - the? But that kind of stuff is silly and you only notice it when other stuff is not working.

New companion is pretty but she wasn't given a lot to do. I've only really liked her in 1/3 outings so far, but that 1 shows she's capable of much more. They seem to be playing up the flirty with her and the Doc which makes me think that's misdirection and they're not ultimately going there.

Celia Imrie was good. It takes a real actress to pull off that final scene of hers, fortunately they had one.

Oh and landing the Tardis in a moving airplane? He must have been having a very good day, or River was hiding out of shot.
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
How about Jamie? He wasn't the Doctor's equal (short of Romana, who could be?) but he was a real mate. I wish we could have a nu-Who companion who is a mate rather than a flirt-object.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Likewise the white window frames. They were painted blue between the location and studio filming for Hartnell's story The War Games, and stayed stubbornly blue till The Eleventh Hour.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gill H:
Given what we know about recent companions returning for the 50th, there is an obvious contender for a woman in a shop...

---

If that's who I think you may be thinking of, she said when asked by journalists that it was a nice idea but she hadn't been asked to be in it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Who are you both thinking of? It sounds as though you have someone specific in mind.

---

quote:

---

Who are you thinking of? It's been announced that, despite Piper's claim not to have been asked, she and Tennant are going to be in the anniversary.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Late Paul:
Oh and landing the Tardis in a moving airplane? He must have been having a very good day, or River was hiding out of shot.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gill H:
I suspect it is significant. The Doctor was quite curious as to who the woman was.

Given what we know about recent companions returning for the 50th, there is an obvious contender for a woman in a shop...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hedgehog:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Likewise the white window frames. They were painted blue between the location and studio filming for Hartnell's story The War Games, and stayed stubbornly blue till The Eleventh Hour.

---

You mean The War Machines, right? The War Games was Troughton.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rogue:
The Tardis did tell the Doctor that she didn't always go where he wanted to be but she did go where he needed to be. I suppose he needed to be on the plane although the front end might have been easier.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by angelica37:
... but I thought it ended rather abruptly with the bad guys just pulling the plug and running away.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ACK:
The question I was left with is, who was the girl in the shop that gave Clara the phone number of the Tardis?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by balaam:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ACK:
The question I was left with is, who was the girl in the shop that gave Clara the phone number of the Tardis?

---

I'd like it to be Sally Sparrow from Blink. I'm usually wrong though.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
Reference to a Tardis at Earl's Court - thought it meant something, and checked it out. Nice joke, but a bit self referential.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
If Richard E. Grant doesn't make further appearances I'll be excessively miffed, but I think that's highly unlikely.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Sally Sparrow is the only character I can think of who works in a shop, and it would be very good to see her again. However, I thought Clara has specified someone working in a flower shop, which complicates matters. Or am I misremembering?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
If Richard E. Grant doesn't make further appearances I'll be excessively miffed, but I think that's highly unlikely.

---

Do you think he'll have a robot John Simm with him?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
I doubt GI hangs out with the other mega-villains.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Sally Sparrow is the only character I can think of who works in a shop, and it would be very good to see her again. However, I thought Clara has specified someone working in a flower shop, which complicates matters. Or am I misremembering?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
Do you think he'll have a robot John Simm with him?

---

I doubt GI hangs out with the other mega-villains.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
Do you think he'll have a robot John Simm with him?

---

I doubt GI hangs out with the other mega-villains.

---

Sorry - it was an obscure Who reference. Look up Scream of the Shalka. It's available to watch on the BBC website if you search for it. I believe it has the distinction of being the only story that has ever been explicitly declared Out of Continuity by either Russell Davies or Stephen Moffat. (It's actually quite good; it was written by Paul Cornell.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Sally Sparrow is the only character I can think of who works in a shop, and it would be very good to see her again. However, I thought Clara has specified someone working in a flower shop, which complicates matters. Or am I misremembering?

---

Rose worked in a department store and I think her mother used to date a market fruit and veg seller. She also has a history of turning up to give people advice.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariston:
Sad to say, but I think it may be curtains for Dr. Song; between the Doctor's sulking and his not mentioning his wife to Clara, well, the conclusion almost draws itself. I hope I'm wrong, though.

---

I hope you're right, but I fear you're not. We're a right pair between us, aren't we?

Good spot on the 23s, Inanna. I noticed the book, and the password follows the same pattern, but I missed the birthday. Is that relevant? It would appear to break the pattern of avoiding 23s, being a specific use of 23, but that's a different Clara, so maybe it works after all. There's a clue in there somewhere, I'm sure. It reminded me a little of a ST:TNG episode where Data left himself a number clue on how to get out of a time loop. Not sure that's what we have here, but it came to mind.

Anyway, I rather liked it. It had pace, it had puzzles, and it had plenty of in-jokes. I was frustrated by the way everyone was happy to stand around and watch as the robot very slowly turned around, instead of running away, and I could have done without the motorbike up the side of the Shard, but I suppose they have to do things like that in case there are any actual children watching.

I'll let them off for a slightly sketchy plot because I suspect all will become clear in time, but the big puzzle is still Clara "Oswin" Oswald. I had a moment of wondering whether I was going to end up being sort of right way back when I suggested she might be an intelligence/personality downloaded into different bodies over time. That would fit with something going wrong during her interrupted "cyber-kidnapping", but I don't think it quite works.

The question is what order they're happening in. Is it Earth chronology, the Doctor's chronology, or something else? Rational investigation looks like a fool's errand in this context, but this episode must have happened before Asylum of the Daleks, I think, because she wasn't a computer genius at the start of it. Was she one at Christmas? Not the best place to demonstrate it, but I can't remember if she showed any understanding of the TARDIS.

The "Run You Clever Boy" bit in this episode didn't come from her, so it feels like this should be the start of something, but then there's the leaf to explain. Or they could all be some sort of ripples and aftershocks from a single event we haven't seen yet, but that doesn't explain other people having the RYCB password, or how she was a computer genius in one incarnation and a helpdesk nightmare in another. I'm inclined to think this was the start and it's something to do with her being uploaded, but I'm not 100% happy with that explanation.
 

---

Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 
A recurring phrase across time and space.
A companion who just won't die, no matter how many times she gets written out.
Romantic tension.

What's going to happen when Rose and Rose 2.0 meet (again)?
 

---

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
I saw a story about Rose coming back, and hoped it might be an April Fool joke. Clearly some people don't take the hint, even when you shove them into another universe. It's a pity, I think: I remember the days when a companion could be relied on to stay out of the way once they'd gone.

Clara's problem with the number 23 might be some sort of clue, but the number 16 was also missing from the front of her book.

So she's split into several different personae in different times and places, eh? I reckon she's one of these guys.
 

---

Posted by Inanna (# 538) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Clara's problem with the number 23 might be some sort of clue, but the number 16 was also missing from the front of her book.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I saw a story about Rose coming back, and hoped it might be an April Fool joke. Clearly some people don't take the hint, even when you shove them into another universe. It's a pity, I think: I remember the days when a companion could be relied on to stay out of the way once they'd gone.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
If Rose is back because Smith crosses timelines with Tennant while Rose is in the TARDIS I have no objections. Susan and Sarah Jane both came back in Five Doctors.

---

Yes, exactly. With Tennant in it, no-one suggests he's in it 'now' from a DW timeline perspective, because Doctor Ten is dead. So it's perfectly possible for Rose to also be in it before her excursion to another dimension.

Of course, it's also perfectly possible that we'll get Super-Magic Rose instead. But the history of multi-Doctor stories is to have past incarnations and past companions appear in what is effectively a gap in their previous timeline.

[ 03. April 2013, 02:23: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 

---

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
There's an announcement about the bad guys for the anniversary special on the BBC Doctor Who website. I imagine a lot of fans will be saying, At Last.
 

---

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
Oh my! (And At Last!)

But I do hope Moffat isn't getting into the trap that John Nathan-Turner and Eric Saward got into, bringing back old enemies that 80% of today's viewers will never have heard of, just for the sake of the fans. When a show starts getting made for the fans, it's had it.
 

---

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
But I do hope Moffat isn't getting into the trap that John Nathan-Turner and Eric Saward got into, bringing back old enemies that 80% of today's viewers will never have heard of, just for the sake of the fans.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Oh my! (And At Last!)

But I do hope Moffat isn't getting into the trap that John Nathan-Turner and Eric Saward got into, bringing back old enemies that 80% of today's viewers will never have heard of, just for the sake of the fans. When a show starts getting made for the fans, it's had it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
There's an announcement about the bad guys for the anniversary special on the BBC Doctor Who website. I imagine a lot of fans will be saying, At Last.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
There's an announcement about the bad guys for the anniversary special on the BBC Doctor Who website. I imagine a lot of fans will be saying, At Last.

---

Has anyone got a link? So that I can find out what the rest of you are talking about?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Has anyone got a link? So that I can find out what the rest of you are talking about?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
This is going to sound crazy, but does anyone know if it's possible to get hold of the score for the setting of "Old Rugged Cross" used in the episode "Gridlock" a few years back?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
This is going to sound crazy, but does anyone know if it's possible to get hold of the score for the setting of "Old Rugged Cross" used in the episode "Gridlock" a few years back?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
This is going to sound crazy, but does anyone know if it's possible to get hold of the score for the setting of "Old Rugged Cross" used in the episode "Gridlock" a few years back?

---

Murray Gold's music for the show is mostly released year by year, but since he would only have arranged this music I'm not sure it would have been released. Try Amazon. Search for something like "doctor who murray gold series three", without the quotes. The individual track might be available as a download. (They did "Abide with me", too - over David Tennant's beautiful speech where he remembered Gallifrey.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I can get the recording, that's here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/advent07/murray.shtml
I'm trying to find the sheet music. But thanks for trying to help!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
... but can't help feeling McGann is a rather dull Doctor.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gill H:
the episode was stuffed with references: the Star Wars cantina, the Blade Runner quote and the Indiana Jones reference.

Plus, did anyone else spot the very brief Hitch-Hiker's reference?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gill H:

So yes, I enjoyed all that, and the visuals, and the music ... but the actual episode was just ... there. Oh well.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
I believe that was the first time Susan's been mentioned in the new series. Significant?

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quote:

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Originally posted by balaam:

**spoiler alert***


If you don't want to know what it is don't look up the give away episode title.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I think some people may be after more out of it than it gives. It is a light drama series, with some interesting stories and a whole lot of SF references for afficionados. But it is not high drama - if you want that, the BBC does provide some excellent examples of that elsewhere.
...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Armin:

However, I am gutted to hear there was reference to Susan - I missed that completely. Where did it come?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Armin:
However, I am gutted to hear there was reference to Susan - I missed that completely. Where did it come?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
doubtingthomas - well yes, there are times it is brilliant. But it always varies, and at its worst, it is still good, light drama. That was the point I was trying to make.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Bob Two-Owls:
It has just got too damn soap opera and not enough sci-fi.

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Yes. But the whole New Who since Ecclestone has been soap opera, ever since they decided to flesh it out with Characters Who Have Relationships. And there have been some real nadirs ever since.
 

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Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 
Okay, we've seen this time and time again—it seems everyone has different expectations on what they want from a Who episode/companion/story/series/reboot. Half our arguments, especially of the "how could you (not) like Amy/#11/"Spearhead from Space"/the old Daleks" seem to come from just this.

So, what does make a good episode, etc., and what are the current production team (not) doing right that would give you what you want?
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
(kisses Ariston)
 

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Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 
Eeeeewwwww. Bunny slobber. Almost as bad as watching Tom Baker fellate the Creature from the Pit.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Should I change to the Cthulu avatar?
 

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Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 
Okay, fine, so I asked it, I guess I have to answer it.

First, good writing. "Well whoop-de-frikkin' do, Aristonwhatsit, we all like bad writing" Yes, fine, but there's a certain standard of pacing (not too slow, don't do that whole "the first episode's plot doesn't really matter" thing they used to do in the old series, sufficiently develop all the plotlines you need to in both the episode and the overall story arc within the context of the action) world and character development (and why were we supposed to care about Nyssa again? Shouldn't we have liked Turlough and Kamelion long before Planet of Fire? Why exactly are we supposed to hide from the Daleks?), and using the appropriate character/obstacle for the plot—in short, everything should have a certain reason for being there, even the silly Strax jokes. Heck, if you can make something do two things at once (character/world development and plot advancement, changing the mood of the scene while establishing a character, setting up an arc while letting the action breathe for a moment), that's even better.

Episodes that do this well: "The Doctor's Wife" (hey, it's Neil Gaiman, we'd hope for good writing!), "The Angels Take Manhattan," "Genesis of the Daleks," and (a personal favorite, why not?) "Androids of Tara." In all of these, there's a fair bit of action, but it's used to stress characters, to bring out alternate dimensions and the limits of their personalities (Romana can be just as ingenious and quick on her feet as the Doctor, the Doctor's a great swordsman despite his usual pacifism, Sara Jane may be plucky, but even her courage has its limits) and, in many cases, to explain the world in which Who takes place. Sure, the Doctor may seem godlike, a Deus in his blue machina, but there are (and, from a storytelling point of view, should be) limits on what he can do. The Doctor and his friends get through problems by being more clever, creative, and just than their antagonists, rather than simply blowing things up or, worse still, having the writers make stuff up.

Second (but really part of the first), working, developed (and developing) characters. Seriously people, Nyssa? Who is she, what are her motivations, and why should we care? How about Tegan first time around, before she got picked up again? One's a princess who somehow knows how to work the TARDIS (so really, a half-assed substitute for Romana), the other's a mouthy flight attendant, and that's about it for far too long. Now, it can take a long time to discover or develop a character (they certainly took their time with Amy and River), but that's okay—and in the case of characters with something to hide (let's add Turlough to the mix), it might be a good idea, so long as you also develop their personalities.

Now, I'll admit it, I like long character arcs. The whole Amy/Rory development, from two-man lady/emotionally stunted kissogram and pushover nurse to Girl Who Got Tired of Waiting and Last Centurion was one I liked—especially since it was accomplished by bringing out elements of each character. Sure, true devotion can manifest itself by being a doormat, but also as violence and daring.

Also, I don't mind flirting. And yes, I know it pisses off half the people here. But really, what do you expect? A man with movie-star good looks (because what else are David Tennant and Matt Smith?) shows up on your doorstep, tells you that you're special for some inexplicable reason, and offers to take you anywhere and anytime you like, for free, no strings attached, no payment required, no time off work, and all in his amazing flying mansion. If you thought a weekend getaway to a mountain cottage was romantic, get a load of that! Oh, and did we mention he's immensely successful and accomplished, excitingly dangerous, beyond well-connected, can get you into any party you want, any job you want, and can get enough money for breakfast just by parallel parking?

If you wouldn't flirt with that, you're dead.

At this point, though, it gets a bit old when the flirting goes according to plan. This is why the Amy/Rory thing worked, but Rose and Martha didn't—we got to keep all that flirting, but with somebody besides the Doctor. Face it, the Doctor can't form a meaningful romantic relationship with a human. It's too imbalanced. If you don't have abilities at least equal to his, you're his inferior, not his partner—and, in the history of Who, there have been only two companions (River and Romana) who were his equals. Flirting from humans? It's fun to see the normally calm and competent Doctor flustered and clueless, but it kills the character development after a while. Give the human an outlet so we can get a decent arc going, or get the Doctor a better girlfriend.

Third—gimmie some workable scenery. I mean, I don't need whiz-bang effects all the time, but keep things believable, or at least from distracting from the story. Heck, the occasional great vista of an alien world or one of the castles #4 always seemed to be finding himself in would beat another sterile mining vehicle/rock quarry/I don't know, but it looks like last week's setting. I like visual cues to help remember the story, to add to the atmosphere—I've found that the new series does this particularly well when it's doing something closer to a horror film ("Blink," "Day of the Moon," and "The Doctor's Wife" had some very strong creepshow horror elements, as well as a few unique visual cues), but the greenhouse of "Seeds of Doom," Renaissance and medieval/Gothic trappings of "Masque of Mandragora," "Androids of Tara," and "State of Decay," general directing and atmosphere of "Warrior's Gate," and contrasting Ren Faire/Funny Costume Future of "Snakedance" all made those memorable. Oh, and then there's "Inferno," where they didn't even need to try anything fancier than an eyepatch and a few surplus Nazi uniforms to be far scarier than any horde of shiny-cloth cybermen could ever be.

To contrast, how about, oh, the floating wrench in "Pirate Planet," everything about "Horns of Nimon" if you're not watching it for camp, infamous pink snake in "Kinda," about all the humanoid monsters from the classic series, and all that really awful Lightwave/bluescreen stuff they did in the first couple seasons of NuHu? I can forgive any number of abandoned quarries (what do you think Skaro looks like? Something other than an abandoned wasteland, the leftovers of humanity's wanton greed?) if you just keep me from noticing where you either got too ambitious for your costume/CGI department or just didn't quite know what you were doing after all, did you?
 

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Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Should I change to the Cthulu avatar?

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And, since I somehow forgot while writing all that: yes.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
If you really want to damp down my desire to kiss you, you need to stop writing such brilliant shit. Every damn word a pearl.
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
Some people take Doctor Who altogether too seriously. It's light entertainment. It's intended primarily for children. It's not great art, it's not aimed at people in their 40s and older so of course we're going to find it unsatisfactory.

However, I do look for internal consistency in any drama series, not something that appears to have been brainstormed and thrown together in a hurry. Children deserve better than that. They have (or should have) inquiring minds. New Who is too fast-paced and frantic at times. It doesn't have to be like that.

The relationship thing is a tangent that at times has dominated the series to the exclusion of all else. It's not what it's about. And I don't think Matt Smith has film-star good looks. (Or even good looks, and I suppose a few of us will disagree on that...)
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Actually hat I find attractive about him is that he doesn't have movie-star looks-- he's a complete original-- but otherwise, I agree with that section of what Ariston said.

[ 08. April 2013, 05:49: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
 

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Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 
Okay, this may be a Pond Difference (and also an effect of the series cancelation/reboot), but Americans really don't see it as a kid's show. At all. It wasn't until I started reading the (sadly, soon to be ended) Wife in Space that I realized that's how it was thought of by anybody. Here, it's a mild geek show—I'd say at least half my friends (generally in their twenties) watch new episodes when they come out and will get/make jokes about bow ties or not blinking. Heck, if you're a female with an English degree, having a crush on the Doctor/Smith/Tennant is as common as liking Jane Austin.*

Now, there are probably a few reasons for this: there's a growing mainstreaming of geek culture in America that means that playing video games/watching non-cult sci-fi (Battlestar Galactica, Firefly, Who)/reading webcomics/knowing what 3d10 means are now socially acceptable things; classic Who having always been a foreign thing, therefore less mainstream, therefore more geeky, therefore more likely to be part of a certain adult culture, rather than kid culture; Who having existed for fifteen years as not-easily-availible radio dramas, novels, and pre-Internet (or early Internet) mailing lists that really only teenagers and adults would have even known where to find, much less get their hands on; and, perhaps most importantly, a history of mid- to high-budget mass appeal sci-fi character-driven light drama, especially Star Trek: The Next Generation. From an American perspective, Who is the closest thing to ST:TNG currently on the air, in that both are fairly mainstream (no real knowledge of hard sci-fi tropes is needed or assumed) programs with decent budgets, decent writing, and won't put you off your popcorn with excessive gore, sex, or language. Sure, there are kids who watch Who, just as I watched ST:TNG when I was a kid—but it was my parents who changed the channel from the local news to the Enterprise every week.

As for Matt Smith's looks or lack thereof, I have only the feverish swearing of undying love (along with other unprintable swearing) from my female acquaintances to go off of. Among a not-so-randomly selected sampling of American females, ages 18-to-32, either pursuing or having a degree in the liberal arts or sciences who have seen Who, Matt Smith might as well be a combination of Adonis and Cupid doused in hormones and wearing nothing but a very sexy bow tie.

*Over and above the usual Anglophilia, even. I swear, the fact that I studied in England gets me (very, very relatively) more women then the fact that it was at Oxford. Or that I blow glass. Or make a martini that could end wars. Or my Nobel Prize.

[ 08. April 2013, 06:08: Message edited by: Ariston ]
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 


In other news:

1. Not a few women are jealous of the companion, whoever she is, unless she reminds them of themselves somehow.

2. Every man in the English speaking world is jealous of Smith. ("NO,I'M NOT! HE'S JUST FUCKING OVERRATED!")
 

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Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
2. Every man in the English speaking world is jealous of Smith. ("NO,I'M NOT! HE'S JUST FUCKING OVERRATED!")

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No I'm not. Why do you think I use a pseudonym?

*adjusts bow tie*
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Oh come on. The discerning women of the Ship will accept no substitutes. (Meaning, get lost, Timelord, can't hold a candle.)

I meant the sad fact is, whatever his charms, he's not a Shipmate.

[ 08. April 2013, 07:05: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
YMMV. There was a time when I'd have stayed in to watch Doctor Who. It says something that I even forgot that the latest episode was on, until it was nearly over. I'm just not that engaged by it these days. And frankly more than a bit fed up with the angsty messianic personality that the Doctor has become; someone who can solve any crisis with the sonic screwdriver, when he's not going through various emotional crises.

Things change and classic Who has had its day, it wasn't perfect but at least it was a bit more plausible. This new version is overblown.
 

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Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :
 
I don't think it is actually seen as a kids show over here, more a family show. And that means there is something for everyone in it. We always watch it together and my boys obsess about the next episode (we don't have a TV and they have to wait til the episode is downloaded from iPlayer - they nag constantly). To add to that, Doctor Who is actually the only programme we are all guaranteed to watch, I haven't watched any other TV for weeks. We also watch classic Who episodes together of a Sunday afternoon, though admittedly I spend a lot of this time laughing at the make up/costumes and stuffed toy monsters.
I agree with almost everything Ariston has said about Who, and find Matt Smith very attractive, his quirkiness just makes him more so.
 

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Posted by The Great Gumby (# 10989) on :
 
I see we're back to the usual arguments over what Who is meant to be, and whether it's better than ever or worse than ever. That in itself is a fair indication that this was a Boring Episode.

That's not to say it didn't have its moments, and there were more homages than you could shake a lightsaber at, but there didn't seem to be any actual substance to the story. Quarter of an hour in, there was still no clear indication of any actual problem to solve, which is usually a warning sign, two-parters aside.

I've repeatedly said that I don't mind the Sonic Screwdriver as long as it's used sensibly, as a way of moving the plot along instead of a resolution, but there are limits. This was so screwdriver-heavy that it got ridiculous. I think there were about 5 minutes in the middle where Matt Smith did nothing but stand with his arm outstretched, looking strainy. Not impressed.

The reason, of course, was that the episode was written from the final scene backwards. That was the reason for the confused setup, and the repeated use of the screwdriver to move the story on fast enough for a Big Showdown. Reasons for that? First, as a clumsy way of showing that Clara's her own person, prepared to stand up to the Doctor, just like The Beast Below for Amy. Second, story development and hints.

The grandfather thing's been mentioned (although I thought we were meant to be giving up on the Doctor-as-God motif), and there's also the leaf. I wonder if the infinite possibilities mentioned might not be some sort of clue about Clara. There are a few small problems, like how she would end up in completely different times, but I offer it for consideration.

I hope some of this makes sense later on, or the episode would be almost completely pointless.
 

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Posted by Bob Two-Owls (# 9680) on :
 
I think the thing that really irks me about NewWho is that every problem has an emotional solution. In ClassicWho we got ambiguous political, scientific and military solutions to amoral situations that made it all feel more real and a lot more bleakly mechanistic. In some ways ClassicWho was more atheist while NewWho is decidedly religious in tone. I wonder if that is why it is more favourably received on the Ship than in the various Science and Maths topic forums that I frequent?
 

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Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
I quite liked Akhaten, and I think that was mostly because it wasn't so damned frenetic. There were actually some pauses between sentences where I could process the sentence!

I also definitely liked the relating to a child character: in Clara's case because it fitted so well with her existing storyline, in the Doctor's case because we've already observed how good Matt Smith is with children.

Having said that, my gripes... the climactic song was easily the least atmospheric of the episode. After earlier numbers were somewhat ethereal and mysterious, we got a lovely little sing-along. The alien audience might as well have got out their cigarette lighters.

Also, I found Clara's leaf bit not as effective as the Doctor's description of his long and tumultuous life. Yes, both were hokey but Matt Smith delivered his bit with gusto.

Earlier yesterday, I watched The Enemy of the World. Fairly good fun. With a first episode lifted straight from James Bond (heck, I found out it even used FOOTAGE from James Bond!), and one brilliantly wild twist in ep 4. Of course, only episode 3 actually still exists...
 

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Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
What the hey, even the worst Dr Who episodes are a million times better than 99% of the reality shite clogging up the telly schedules.
 

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Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
Oh, in terms of what makes a good episode... I had an interesting discussion last week about the need to use what you've set up previously with a character, and to challenge a character.

The bit of the conversation I remember most was my own observations about the episode Midnight... only they're not really my own observations, it's mostly stuff I read elsewhere that otherwise would probably only have stayed buried in my subconscious somewhere.

David Tennant's doctor usually waltzes into situations with an air of confidence and control and people just fall into line behind him.
Part of the reason that Midnight is so damn scary is that his usual strategy fails so utterly. That's good writing because it relies on what we already know about the character. The same plot wouldn't really work with Matt Smith's form of chaos.

I used to be a big X-Files fan, and some of the best episodes similarly managed to tap into existing character history. If Scully does something it ought to be characteristic of her, not of Mulder.

Heck, I'm quite a fan of The Good Wife and the main reason for that is that the show has succeeded in created a web of shared history that makes character's lives more complicated than a 'case-of-the-week' show would (and the first half of TGW's first season pretty well WAS 'case-of-the-week', before they figured out what they were doing).

To be honest, Doctor Who doesn't seem to be particularly successful at creating character depth of that kind. It's idea of depth often consists of name-checking monsters from decades ago. Even if it does that while changing the characteristics of the monster...

Decades. Who am I kidding. I'm still pissed off that Weeping Angels II didn't appear to really be the same as Weeping Angels I. All of a sudden they can move in front of each other so long as Amy can't see 'em...
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
After decades of fan-geeks squeaking "It's not Who!" every time something new happens, a lot of people are finally coming to the conclusion that the show is virtually formatless. It's been around for so long, there's not a lot that hasn't already happened. Flirting? - has anyone watched a Jo Grant episode recently? Sex? - did nobody notice Barbara being implicitly threatened with rape in The Keys of Marinus? Comedy? - The Romans, The Myth Makers ... Downright silliness? - well how about that episode of The Green Death where the Doctor disguises himself as a cleaning lady, complete with dodgy Welsh accent? Plots stolen from other sources? - pick virtually any story that Robert Holmes contributed to.

The only thing the old version never really did - and which NuWho does better - is to acknowledge that companions have a life. The classic-series Doctor Who companion is the archetypal alien abduction, vanishing from their old life and quite possibly never coming back. How absurd was it that Ian and Barbara just stepped back into 1960s London a couple of years after they'd have been logged as "missing persons"? Did Sarah Jane never miss a writing deadline when she went off on those trips in the TARDIS? How was it she never had a Significant Other in her life? (Something that was only explained in School Reunion thirty years later: she was in love with the Doctor all along - "You were my life.")

I love that in the new show, Rose had a mum and a boyfriend; that Martha had bickering separated parents; that Donna had a fantastic granddad. I love that Amy and Rory got to be the couple that Barbara and Ian should have been.

The only thing I don't like - that I really don't like, actually - from the past couple of years is Moffat's constant recurring theme that family love is the answer to everything. It's repetetive, it's mawkish, and it's just not true anyway. He needs to get over himself and blow up some more aliens.
 

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Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
After decades of fan-geeks squeaking "It's not Who!" every time something new happens, a lot of people are finally coming to the conclusion that the show is virtually formatless.

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quote:

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Sex? - did nobody notice Barbara being implicitly threatened with rape in The Keys of Marinus?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Downright silliness? - well how about that episode of The Green Death where the Doctor disguises himself as a cleaning lady, complete with dodgy Welsh accent?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Flirting? - has anyone watched a Jo Grant episode recently? Sex? - did nobody notice Barbara being implicitly threatened with rape in The Keys of Marinus? Comedy? - The Romans, The Myth Makers ... Downright silliness? - well how about that episode of The Green Death where the Doctor disguises himself as a cleaning lady, complete with dodgy Welsh accent? Plots stolen from other sources? - pick virtually any story that Robert Holmes contributed to.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
The only thing I don't like - that I really don't like, actually - from the past couple of years is Moffat's constant recurring theme that family love is the answer to everything. It's repetetive, it's mawkish, and it's just not true anyway.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Downright silliness? - well how about that episode of The Green Death where the Doctor disguises himself as a cleaning lady, complete with dodgy Welsh accent?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:
I don't think it is actually seen as a kids show over here, more a family show. And that means there is something for everyone in it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:

quote:

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Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:
I don't think it is actually seen as a kids show over here, more a family show. And that means there is something for everyone in it.

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But a family show is aimed primarily at children.

Not that this is entirely suitable for family viewing these days. "The Empty Child" scared half the nation senseless, and there have been a few other episodes since that have been distinctly creepy (The Silence, hanging upside down like bats, chittering, for one) but suitable for kids? Also, it seems to be getting sexed up and the storylines are becoming increasingly over-complicated.

And I see I'm not alone in thinking that.

Ah well, my opinion won't change anything, but at least I've said what I think.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ariel:

quote:

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Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:
I don't think it is actually seen as a kids show over here, more a family show. And that means there is something for everyone in it.

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But a family show is aimed primarily at children.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
The only thing I don't like - that I really don't like, actually - from the past couple of years is Moffat's constant recurring theme that family love is the answer to everything. It's repetetive, it's mawkish, and it's just not true anyway. He needs to get over himself and blow up some more aliens.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Matt Black:
Which bit exactly?

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quote:

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I'm just watching The Web of Fear.

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quote:

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Originally posted by beatmenace:

quote:

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I'm just watching The Web of Fear.

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Isn't 'The Web of Fear' a lost story?

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quote:

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Originally posted by angelica37:
I hope that tomorrows episode was better than last weeks, that was the first time for ages that I've got to the end of an episode and thought it was disappointing and a bit lame. Not sure why it didn't work, because the monsters were quite good I think there was too much talking (and singing) and not enough of an actual story.
Also what was the monster in the glass box for? If there was an explanation for it I missed it

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quote:

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Originally posted by angelica37:
Also what was the monster in the glass box for? If there was an explanation for it I missed it

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quote:

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Originally posted by Hedgehog:
I just got a chance to see it again last night. While watching I realized that, although I had watched it on Saturday, I couldn't remember exactly how it ended. And, frankly, the end is a little ambiguous. The threat is averted but it is Not At All Clear whether the monster has been killed or simply put back to sleep waiting to be fed more young girls in the future.

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
But talking about individual things that didn't make sense is like pointing out a dog turd in a sewer.

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I'm beginning to sense you didn't like it. Yes, there are websites where it's being unfavourably compared to Season Two's Fear Her, which was Russell Davies's "who the hell thought this was a good idea?" moment.

I thought it was pleasantly whimsical.

I'm crossing my fingers that tomorrow, Mark Gatiss won't do to the you-know-whats what he did to the Daleks a couple of years back. I didn't like last year's story* by him, either, at first viewing, but it's improved with re-watching.


*(What was it called again? Honestly, memory like ... one of those things with holes in it ...)
 

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Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
See, I didn't especially mind Fear Her either. Well, I suppose the last part of it is a bit of a cringe.

I think there's always going to be a spectrum of people who like different styles of stories.

And in the same vein... oh, that's right, the next one is Gattiss.

*Lowers expectations immediately*

[ 13. April 2013, 05:07: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
I read that tonight's episode is set in 1983. I wonder if a certain British Prime Minister will be mentioned?
 

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Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :
 
Once Scaldag?? got out of the suit we got the unseen creature scenario.

Hidden creature, long bony fingers, claustophobic corridors and steam rising in front of the camera.
Doctor Who does Alien, and for me it was the best part of the show.

Wasn't sure about the Ice Station Zebra meets the end of Indiana Jones and the kingdom of the crystal skull bit at the end.

Overall I liked it. A lot.
 

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Posted by Bene Gesserit (# 14718) on :
 
For me, it was certainly a better episode than last week's. And I did like last week's.
 

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Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
I was moderately impressed, but I didn't enjoy it quite as much as last week, oddly. Maybe, because I have seen far better Cold War dramas.

I wanted them to play Gillan - Mutually Assured Destruction behind it, which would have been ideal. the song epitomises the era perfectly.
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
Very nearly, but not quite, excellent, I thought. I didn't expect to get a "naked" Ice Warrior! - and the scene where the fingers are playing across the Lieutenant's face made my skin crawl. In a good way. Very Gatiss.
 

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Posted by Bob Two-Owls (# 9680) on :
 
Excellent episode this week, I could imagine Jon Pertwee and Jo Grant in that one. I was wanting another half hour when it ended. Gatiss really knows Who.
 

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Posted by angelica37 (# 8478) on :
 
Much better than last week, I'm still wondering about Clara but then I suppose we are meant to. I thought the change in attitude when she saw the dead bodies was quite good, I liked the Ice Warrior too, there was more to it than I was expecting.
 

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Posted by doubtingthomas (# 14498) on :
 
I thoroughly enjoyed that, and it avoided letting us see too much of the monster and of what it had done, which I tend to find creepier than all-out CGI and horror make-up. (I still refuse to see Alien because I don't think I could cope...)

My only niggle, as a child of the Cold War (and especially of that phase), is that it failed to convey the reality of "mutually assured destruction" and the horror its shadow carried, thereby also detracting from the menace of the monster.

I am not sure how this could have been achieved, though. X-Men: First Class used period news footage to good effect (at least IMHO - and these events happened about as long before my birth as 1983 is before that of many those with whom I usually watch Doctor Who); however that device would have been difficult to use on a Soviet sub...
 

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Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :
 
Youngest Rogueling had her hands over her eyes for quite a lot of it. Sometimes my hands.

Classic Dr Who.

[ 13. April 2013, 23:06: Message edited by: The Rogue ]
 

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Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on :
 
It definitely had some nice bits.
A pretty good attempt to make the Russians human, (the scene where Cara realises something joke-spoilery, helps).

Could probably have gone a bit better on the cold war (but it was there, it would have been interesting to have seen an event we recognised discussed from the other perspective but western-instinct would kick in*).
But they were fearful, jokey, had lives, [different personalities] and lived and carried the story.
Dr Who's done it before, (and also other British & American TV), but still too many occasions where it's weak.

*for instance I get the impression that 'spreading democracy' was a buzzword for that side too (although not backed by reality, either), so that would sound wrong.
And if you have them reciting direct lies, do you have someone suspicious and if so how do you act that.
And finally, comrades, where their values/buzzwords are alien, we'll react the opposite way.

[ 14. April 2013, 11:12: Message edited by: Jay-Emm ]
 

---

Posted by doubtingthomas (# 14498) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
...it would have been interesting to have seen an event we recognised discussed from the other perspective but western-instinct would kick in

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
There isn't enough time to build things like high stakes. I simply didn't get enough material to convince me that we could blow up the world here. Basically the only thing that gave me that was: 1983.

Oh right. If we'd had this situation any other time we'd have been confined to endangering the crew of a single submarine, but hey, '1983' flashed up on the screen at the start so immediately I should feel tense about the future of the entire world.

Maybe it worked better for people who were older at the time. But for me, it was a very 'intellectual' point and it didn't feel like the episode did anywhere enough to turn it into an emotional reaction.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
(And I'm a bit mystified why the BBC should choose not to fill an hour properly - pandering to commercial networks elsewhere? In fact I wouldn't be surprised if some of these stories would work better with some ad breaks providing mini-cliffhanger pauses. Breaks really can make a significant difference, again if the story is designed to make use of them.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I think that was my problem, and I am "older", and remember that time. The tension and fear was not there. Not to mention that one rogue missile would not have triggered a nuclear war, in the way they imply.

Yes, the world was on a hair-trigger, and M.A.D. was a true definition of the state of play. That is the point - something like War Games played it out better - the USSR would not risk starting a war by just firing one or two missiles, so if it happened, the situation would be defused (and the missiles destroyed before they hit anything they shouldn't).

The only "successful" tactics would be a full launch of the total arsenal, in the hope that the opposition would be totally destroyed before they could launch everything, or, as per War Games, not play. So, while there was a risk of increasing tensions by the actions of a single sub, and it would not be good, it did not feel "real".

So yes, the never-seen monster was excellent, but there was a core problem with the threat issue.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
It negotiates the obvious pitfall, which is that the ice warriors are boringly generic monsters unless you write them as not actually monsters.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
It negotiates the obvious pitfall, which is that the ice warriors are boringly generic monsters unless you write them as not actually monsters.

---

You're going to have explain just what you think a 'monster' is, now.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
I did enjoy it quite a lot, but what niggles with me I think is a basic problem with the new series quite often: things end up feeling rushed.

There isn't enough time to build things like high stakes. I simply didn't get enough material to convince me that we could blow up the world here. Basically the only thing that gave me that was: 1983.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Panda:
So - The Rings of Akhaten (sp?) anyone?

Ok, I thought. The marketplace really looked like a set though. You used to notice that about Star Trek alien planets too - they all had suspiciously smooth floors and lots of corners at right angles.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Panda:
So - The Rings of Akhaten (sp?) anyone?

Ok, I thought. The marketplace really looked like a set though. You used to notice that about Star Trek alien planets too - they all had suspiciously smooth floors and lots of corners at right angles.

---

It struck me more as an homage to George Lucas' Mos Eisley spaceport.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
The ease with which he engaged and then disengaged the launch mechanism, even from the spaceship, also makes me wonder if the Ice Warriors could just blow up the planet any time they felt like it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
It negotiates the obvious pitfall, which is that the ice warriors are boringly generic monsters unless you write them as not actually monsters.

---

You're going to have explain just what you think a 'monster' is, now.

---

Something that you couldn't live alongside and which it makes no real sense to have regrets about killing. Daleks are the archetypal monster. Cybermen are monsters. Weeping angels are monsters. Silurians usually aren't monsters. Ice Warriors in the Troughton-period were monsters (Troughton ran around shooting them with a heat ray in one story).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
Ice Warriors in the Troughton-period were monsters (Troughton ran around shooting them with a heat ray in one story).

---

Nope. Having watched The Ice Warriors just a few weeks ago, the title characters were most definitely NOT monsters. Ruthlessly self-interested, yes, but not especially interested in killing off humans for any reason. They spend considerable parts of the story involved in negotiations.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by tessaB:
Did anyone notice the odd bit of sound and camera work when Clara got hit on the head? I'm wondering if there is going to be a sort of sub-text around her 'dying' over and over.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
Ice Warriors in the Troughton-period were monsters (Troughton ran around shooting them with a heat ray in one story).

---

Nope. Having watched The Ice Warriors just a few weeks ago, the title characters were most definitely NOT monsters. Ruthlessly self-interested, yes, but not especially interested in killing off humans for any reason. They spend considerable parts of the story involved in negotiations.

---

I haven't seen The Ice Warriors myself so I'll have to take your word for it. Ruthlessly self-interested is I think sufficient to get you to monster status if your self-interest conflicts with human self-interest.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hedgehog:

quote:

---

Originally posted by tessaB:
Did anyone notice the odd bit of sound and camera work when Clara got hit on the head? I'm wondering if there is going to be a sort of sub-text around her 'dying' over and over.

---

I did notice it. And maybe it is a plot thread. Or it is a red herring. Remember last season when there were a couple stories where Rory seemed curiously disjointed in time (like using a past-tense in the hotel story when he shouldn't have)? Never led to anything. Moff lies. He throws these things out for fans to chase after.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
I've just finished the "Dalek's master plan" 12-parter.

Blimey.

That's all I've got to say.

---

That pretty much covers it. It is high on my list of series I wish still fully existed on video.
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
Especially the first few episodes.

Meanwhile, I've just watched The Dominators. It's not that awful.
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
And now I've watched The Mind Robber. Which was fairly entertaining. And the swordfight sequence in the last episode was brilliant.
 

---

Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :
 
Doctor Who and the Silurians has just dropped through with the post I will have to fit in a family popcorn event later this afternoon.
 

---

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:
Doctor Who and the Silurians has just dropped through with the post I will have to fit in a family popcorn event later this afternoon.

---

Wow. It's one of my all-time favourites, up there with Genesis of the Daleks. Great writing, great direction, and some great performances. I remember also being really scared by it when I was seven (episodes 2 and 3 particularly!) and even now there are some scary scenes (episodes 6 and 7!). Enjoy!

Orfeo, what did you like about The Dominators? Some people really can't stand it - I just thought it was dull. And I agree with the Wife in Space that it didn't help that some of the costumes seemed to be made out of curtains.

The titles of the remaining episodes of this series have been released - BBC site. The last one's particularly interesting.

I'm looking forward to Hide tonight - the previews look great.
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Orfeo, what did you like about The Dominators? Some people really can't stand it - I just thought it was dull. And I agree with the Wife in Space that it didn't help that some of the costumes seemed to be made out of curtains.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:
Doctor Who and the Silurians has just dropped through with the post I will have to fit in a family popcorn event later this afternoon.

---

Wow. It's one of my all-time favourites, up there with Genesis of the Daleks. Great writing, great direction, and some great performances. I remember also being really scared by it when I was seven (episodes 2 and 3 particularly!) and even now there are some scary scenes (episodes 6 and 7!). Enjoy!.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gill H:
A blue crystal from Metebilis 3, eh?
And last week we had an Ice Warrior.
And the week before, they went somewhere the Doctor had visited with his granddaughter.

Hmmm...

---

Even more interesting when looked at in the episode order
 

---

Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :
 
Hm, where does that leave us with the Bells of St John episode?
 

---

Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on :
 
Anybody else get a bit of a Stone Tape vibe in tonight's episode? Except the upbeat ending of course.

IMHO, the best episode for ages; the script seemed a little sharper than usual.
 

---

Posted by doubtingthomas (# 14498) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gill H:
A blue crystal from Metebilis 3, eh?
And last week we had an Ice Warrior.
And the week before, they went somewhere the Doctor had visited with his granddaughter.

Hmmm...

---

Even more interesting when looked at in the episode order

---

There are 4 episodes left in this series, which could cover the rest of the classic incarnations...

BTW, thoroughly enjoyed this one!

[ 20. April 2013, 23:42: Message edited by: doubtingthomas ]
 

---

Posted by ACK (# 16756) on :
 
When he went through the history of the world of that one spot, he ended at a desolate wasteland, the implication being that was the end of the Earth. How does that tie in with the Eccelston episode: 'The end of the world'? Or did I just misunderstand it and/or am over analysing?
I did enjoy 'Hide' much more than the previous 2 weeks' offerings.
 

---

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I have wondered, when seeing stories in which people travel through deep time on the same spot (Primeval had the same problem) just what is meant by the same place, and how come they are always on the surface, rather than above it, or, disastrously, below it. (At least Primeval had the possibility of being under water.) The same place could mean the same geographic coordinates, or the same chunk of rock. It isn't that simple.

And what happened to the time traveller? Dumping an extra body at that date isn't that easy. (He wasn't going to risk a rewrite trying to put someone back like the Martian base commander and how that ended, I suppose.)
 

---

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
I loved that episode. Pocket universe, ghosts, making lives better, deep existential philosophy.

The moving through time but not space was also interesting - and yes, it is a challenge. The piece of earth that I currently live on used to be underground somewhere and will be underground again in the future. I suppose all you could say is that he stayed at a location on the surface of the Earth that would be identified by a geostationary satellite.

It does raise a whole lot of issues about the whole "is this the same place as it was" issues. Of course, if you can't accept a same place different time idea, the whole story collapses. But the truth is that, over a long term, we cannot identify a specific location particularly well.
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
I liked the twist at the end. Wonder how they'll get round that one next week?

Interesting that we actually saw the Doctor frightened at one point - that's not how he usually is. Also the comment about "he has a sliver of ice in his heart" is instriguing and reminds me of the fairytale about the boy who had a fragment of an evil queen's mirror in his heart, and had to be rescued and restored to normality by (you guessed it) a close female companion.

It feels as if the series as a whole is coming to an end forever. And I'm going to be really put out if they reveal the Doctor's name, and it turns out to be Endeavour.
 

---

Posted by Athrawes (# 9594) on :
 
Well, I enjoyed that, but am wondering like mad why the Tardis does not like Clara. No doubt we'll find out next week.
 

---

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
Liked it, but it had holes. A minor annoyance was the Doctor mispronouncing "Metabellis III". The time frame photos looked great, but what gave him the idea to do that? Why did he realise there was a connection between Hilarion and the Lizard? (I was hoping the Lizard was the one shouting, "Help Me," and Hilarion was the monster.) And is Hilarion a new companion? With the Lizard?

One again, lots of fun, yet not substantial enough for real satisfaction. This is Galifreyan candy-floss.
 

---

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
Last night's episode didn't really do it for me, I'm afraid. As I said on another forum, it seemed like lots of bits of really good stories stitched together into something that didn't quite add up to one good story.

I thought the forest scenes, and the "monster", were a bit scary for that time on a Saturday evening. I didn't like the sudden ending (although I suppose once you've done a rescue-from-pocket-universe scene, why show it all again?). I wonder if the "monsters" carried on living in Caliburn House after they were reunited, happily ever after? Alec and Emma could have given them the north wing.

And I too am now intensely curious about why the TARDIS doesn't like Clara.
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
I was ready to come here and say how this was the best episode in ages.

And then the last 2 sappy minutes happened. That was absolute crap. And everything before it had been so GOOD.

Someone complained recently about everything always being resolved by nice, happy emotions. This time it was perfectly possible to end 'happy' but without it being RESOLVED by emotions. But no. They had to go and make it all about emotions again.

To quote Clara, "I'm not happy".

And it had been so GOOD. Two excellent guest actors. Great cinematography (although I could have done with a *teensy* bit less of lightning-filled exterior shots). Loved the "we're all ghosts" speech/scene. A great explanation of why the Doctor was even there.

And a couple of stupid minutes because we can't have anything legitimately NASTY in the story. Aargh.

PS I don't mind sappy stories. There are 2 episodes I've kept on my PVR in the last few years. They're the Vincent Van Gogh one, and the Christmas Carol one. Both tearjerkers. But dammit, even if they were manipulating my emotions they were doing it in a way that felt like all of the same piece. Not this piece of tacked-on feel-good crap.

[ 21. April 2013, 13:03: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
I think Sapphire and Steel did it better for hair-raising, low-budget, terrifying plotlines. They'd have taken the "stone tape" idea and come up with something altogether less predictable than an alien trapped in a parallel universe - yes, it was predictable, the Doctor Who writers have used that line before. I was sort of hoping it wouldn't be neatly resolved. The twist was nice but there is altogether a bit too much emphasis on relationship-type stuff which makes it feel more like a soap opera set in space sometimes. And is the reason I stopped watching the Star Trek series. Gimme adventure and suspense.

Peter Hammond (who wrote Sapphire and Steel and some of the earlier Doctor Who episodes) should be invited back and asked to write more. He had the gift.
 

---

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
I liked the twist at the end. Wonder how they'll get round that one next week?

Interesting that we actually saw the Doctor frightened at one point - that's not how he usually is. Also the comment about "he has a sliver of ice in his heart" is instriguing and reminds me of the fairytale about the boy who had a fragment of an evil queen's mirror in his heart, and had to be rescued and restored to normality by (you guessed it) a close female companion.

It feels as if the series as a whole is coming to an end forever. And I'm going to be really put out if they reveal the Doctor's name, and it turns out to be Endeavour.

---

So does that make the Tardis the Snow Queen? Who stole the Doctor way back when. And if Clara (the ordinary girl) is Gerda to his Kay, are the deaths related to her journeys through Lappland and so on to rescue him? And is Andersen fair game?
 

---

Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :
 
Sapphire and Steel, now that brings back childhood memories
 

---

Posted by M. (# 3291) on :
 
Didn't the book in the Angels in Manhattan episode say that River Song had ice in her heart?

M.
 

---

Posted by The Great Gumby (# 10989) on :
 
The concept was great, and for the most part it was executed well. I was less than impressed at the TARDIS being flown into the pocket universe when we'd explicitly been told at least twice that it couldn't work, but I could put up with it. And then it went all to shit. Matchmaker Doctor, arbitrary family connection, a second journey into the apparently impregnable pocket universe. It spoilt what should have been a high-quality example of what Who can be. You don't need to give every single character a happy-ever-after.

To be honest, I also spent much of the time distracted by continuity, after a really glaring error early on. I won't say any more, except that there was a very obvious moment when the Doctor was drinking the milk at the beginning.
 

---

Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :
 
The bow tie came and went, too.
 

---

Posted by Eigon (# 4917) on :
 
Didn't he use the bow tie to tie the door handles together? And then retrieve the bow tie from the forest floor when the house disappeared?

One little thing I did like was the mention of "Quantum foam". Real science!
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eigon:

One little thing I did like was the mention of "Quantum foam". Real science!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I think Jenna-Louise Coleman is showing considerable quality, even with Moffat's - let's be charitable and call it "quirky" - way of writing female characters.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
I was less than impressed at the TARDIS being flown into the pocket universe when we'd explicitly been told at least twice that it couldn't work, but I could put up with it.

---

No, we were told that the TARDIS would lose energy in four seconds. But she got them out in three.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hedgehog:
So can somebody explain to me why the episode's title was "Hide"?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
One scene in this week's episode that really did work for me was when the Doctor was getting all puppyish about his time-lapse photos, and Clara went into her "We're all ghosts to you" speech.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Does he need to investigate anything anymore, or does he know it all already?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
I was less than impressed at the TARDIS being flown into the pocket universe when we'd explicitly been told at least twice that it couldn't work, but I could put up with it.

---

No, we were told that the TARDIS would lose energy in four seconds. But she got them out in three.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
As well as all the stuff I'd quibbled about earlier they didn't like the fact that the Doctor knew everything about everyone - including the time traveller's name. Does he need to investigate anything anymore, or does he know it all already?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Great Gumby:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
I was less than impressed at the TARDIS being flown into the pocket universe when we'd explicitly been told at least twice that it couldn't work, but I could put up with it.

---

No, we were told that the TARDIS would lose energy in four seconds. But she got them out in three.

---

Must be some sort of relativity-related observer thing, because it seemed a helluva lot longer than 3 seconds to me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Does he need to investigate anything anymore

---

quote:

---

or does he know it all already?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hedgehog:
[That's the simple answer for why the TARDIS doesn't like Clara. I also have a more complicated theory involving the Great Intelligence, but it needs a lot more evidence before I float it out there.]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
Ariel, I only know Oswald Bastable as E Nesbit's treasure seeker. Did Moorcock borrow him?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by doubtingthomas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Great Gumby:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
I was less than impressed at the TARDIS being flown into the pocket universe when we'd explicitly been told at least twice that it couldn't work, but I could put up with it.

---

No, we were told that the TARDIS would lose energy in four seconds. But she got them out in three.

---

Must be some sort of relativity-related observer thing, because it seemed a helluva lot longer than 3 seconds to me.

---

Yes, that bothered me, too. It is said somewhere at the beginning, that in the pocket universe, time is different, and a moment lasts for ages, but since they seem to entirely forget about that pretty much instantly, I suppose it cannot be used to explain away that particular detail...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hedgehog:
[That's the simple answer for why the TARDIS doesn't like Clara. I also have a more complicated theory involving the Great Intelligence, but it needs a lot more evidence before I float it out there.]

---

You don't mean? ... Somebody shaved a Yeti and called it Clara?

---

Need. More. Evidence. For example, I want to see how she reacts around little metal spheres.

And Ariston is correct. The TARDIS threw itself to the end of the time trying to shake off Captain Jack, so there is NuWho precedent for the TARDIS reacting to anomalies without having to go to the audio dramas.
 

---

Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
Ariel, I only know Oswald Bastable as E Nesbit's treasure seeker. Did Moorcock borrow him?

---

Yes, he became an Edwardian-era army officer who lives in a universe where the First World War didn't happen, and travels in time. Moorcock said he wasn't trying to write a sequel, just connect with the flavour of the era. But still. Anyway he has his own adventures. He crops up as a minor character in some of Moorcock's other novels as well, which is where I encountered him.

---

quote:

---

From Hedgehog
: We already know Clara is some weird form of temporal anomaly, so it is no surprise that the TARDIS is reacting to her presence.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Longshanks:
Clara hasn't been given the key.
She is a real person we know now, the anomaly is the multiple appearances.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
I realised after watching that I didn't have the faintest idea why the episode was called "Hide", either.

---

Because the episode makes you want to hide? Certainly up till the last five minutes at any rate. The scare factor, for me at least, was on a par with Blink. Haunted house, ghost, clockroachesque monster.
 

---

Posted by Inanna (# 538) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
I realised after watching that I didn't have the faintest idea why the episode was called "Hide", either.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:
..an avid follower of Who, ..
Firenze
Heaven Host

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Inanna:
I suppose if you wanted to get all metaphorical, you had the scientist trying to hide from his feelings, and the psychic hiding her own feelings of love, and maybe even the Doctor hiding his real reasons for being there from Clara ... but I may be getting over-analytical again.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariston:
Two questions, as I use my special Overanalyzing Ray on things:

1. So Clara doesn't have a TARDIS key. We're three episodes and multiple adventures in to her tenure, and still no key. Most companions in NuHu have gotten theirs first episode—"hello, I'm the Doctor, oh, have to save the world, okay, problem solved, welcome, here's your key." We saw him give it to Clara 0.2 right before she got tossed off the cloud, so we have reason to believe that, if she weren't known to be Weird, she'd already have one. So...where's her key? Why hasn't the Doctor given her one yet? And what's the significance of all this?

2. Okay, so back in "Asylum," all the way at the beginning of this season, Oswin in her audio journal mentions "it's my mum's birthday. Happy birthday, mum; I made you a soufflé, but it was too beautiful to live." Clara's mum is, well, dead. Is this another bit of rhetorical "talking to the dead" (her speech changes cadence, if you listen carefully), or something else in the foreshadowing/Clara's Weird department?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by art dunce:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariston:
Two questions, as I use my special Overanalyzing Ray on things:

1. So Clara doesn't have a TARDIS key. We're three episodes and multiple adventures in to her tenure, and still no key. Most companions in NuHu have gotten theirs first episode—"hello, I'm the Doctor, oh, have to save the world, okay, problem solved, welcome, here's your key." We saw him give it to Clara 0.2 right before she got tossed off the cloud, so we have reason to believe that, if she weren't known to be Weird, she'd already have one. So...where's her key? Why hasn't the Doctor given her one yet? And what's the significance of all this?

2. Okay, so back in "Asylum," all the way at the beginning of this season, Oswin in her audio journal mentions "it's my mum's birthday. Happy birthday, mum; I made you a soufflé, but it was too beautiful to live." Clara's mum is, well, dead. Is this another bit of rhetorical "talking to the dead" (her speech changes cadence, if you listen carefully), or something else in the foreshadowing/Clara's Weird department?

---

He gave her one in the Christmas special. And did he ever give Amy or Rory one?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariston:
1. So Clara doesn't have a TARDIS key. We're three episodes and multiple adventures in to her tenure, and still no key. Most companions in NuHu have gotten theirs first episode—"hello, I'm the Doctor, oh, have to save the world, okay, problem solved, welcome, here's your key." We saw him give it to Clara 0.2 right before she got tossed off the cloud, so we have reason to believe that, if she weren't known to be Weird, she'd already have one. So...where's her key? Why hasn't the Doctor given her one yet? And what's the significance of all this?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rogue:
Clara argued her way into the Tardis without a key so perhaps she doesn't need one.

Besides, if you are running away from a monster and looking to hide in the Tardis isn't fumbling for a key going to slow down your escape?

---

I think the keys have some sort of remote action (which car keys are catching up) but May be you don't need one if you follow the doctor in?. Or should I accept my theory has fallen to pieces and stop digging.
 

---

Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :
 
No, do keep digging and working on your theory. By doing that sometimes you stumble on a truth by accident and at the end of the series, when everything is revealed (well, some of it), you can award yourself with a
 

---

Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 
Are you kidding me? Cooking up/working out absurd theories is half the fun of discussing Who.
This thread must look to non-Whovians like the cricket thread does to me.
I'm scared now.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Quotes file.
 

---

Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
Is anyone else reading the e-books which Puffin are publishing for the 50th anniversary?

Yes, they're Puffin, which means they are officially kids' books, but who cares!

There will be eleven books over eleven months. Some info is here:

Doctor Who Puffin books

I enjoyed the first one, although perhaps more for the storyline, which (shhh... spoilers!) drew on a source I liked already.

Not so thrilled with the second, although I did like the way in which the baddie was defeated in a way only Jamie could accomplish. The characters of the 2nd Doctor and Jamie were well written - it was just the particular baddie I found a little uninvolving.

The third was pretty good, although when Jo was described as 'quick-witted' it did surprise me... Some nice humour in this one.

The fourth is my favourite so far (unsurprisingly perhaps, as Tom Baker was 'my Doctor'). The companion is Leela. The plot has echoes of Leela's first meeting with the Doctor, which is probably deliberate. However, Leela doesn't make reference to this at all. Perhaps the author didn't want to throw too much unfamiliar stuff at the reader.

However, I do love the narrative voices for both the Doctor and Leela. Reading the story, I could hear it in my mind in their voices, and it fitted perfectly.

Some lovely little jokes too, such as Leela's line which goes something like:

"It will not hurt you. It is called a scarf. A little like a cloak, but pointless."

Anyone else reading these?
 

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Posted by Athrawes (# 9594) on :
 
Thank you, I am now. Not so keen on the first, although I did like the story, just not the way it was written. I am enjoying the second so far.
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 

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Originally posted by Gill H:
Doctor Who Puffin books

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This crashed when I tried to load it, but not before I'd seen:

"Fourth Doctor. The Roots of Evil. Out Now" and a picture of a man with wild-looking hair.

I assume this is the well-known story of the Fourth Doctor and his quest to find the one hairdresser in the galaxy who could do something about the roots of evil.
 

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Posted by The Great Gumby (# 10989) on :
 
I was expecting this week's episode to start explaining things, or at least providing some background. I was disappointed.

Still not sure what I think about it as a story. It felt a bit flimsy, but it might still reward a second viewing with some hidden gems and subtle details.
 

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Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
It reminded me of Warrior's Gate. This is a good thing.
I am less sure about flipping the reset switch. There was a narrative logic to it, but reset switches always make the foregoing events seem a bit pointless.
 

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Posted by Inanna (# 538) on :
 
Interesting episode and definitely one to re-watch tomorrow. Is this twice now that the current Clara should have died but didn't - once from the wi-fi spoonhead thing, and now being burned up in the TARDIS? Don't quite get why they turned into zombie things rather than just being dead ... definitely need for a repeat viewing.

I was very happy that we got to see the swimming pool. And would happily spend a long, long time in the library. Forget seeing all of time and space... I'll just curl up here with a book. (I guess that's why the Doctor has yet to choose me as his companion. My priorities are all wrong )
 

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Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
I thought it was an interesting episode, and it is always interesting to see more of the Tardis. I was interested in the doctors comment that the Tardis is "infinite", which is a new idea, I think. I know it is huge, but infinite is new.

The idea of simply turning the day back was a cop-out. Very disappointed. He never resolved the problem, just made it not happen, which is wrong. I would like to have seen him actually sort it out, put the heart of the Tardis back somehow.

The timeline crossovers were fun. Always.
 

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Posted by Dormouse (# 5954) on :
 
I didn't like it...If the "monsters" were burned up Clara etc why did they kill the "people" in a nasty way? Why didn't they try to warn them or something about what was going to happen, instead of skulking menacingly? The resolution was disappointing and I wasn't engaged at all. And this is from somebody who NEVER thinks too hard about Doctor Who episodes and RARELY sees the blatently obvious plot holes that everyone else sees!
 

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Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
I just watched.

Absurd and pointless. I didn't believe the whole monster business for a second. And the rods shooting out were ridiculous.

The Tardis being upset at being tampered with, that at least I could believe.
 

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Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :
 

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Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I thought it was an interesting episode, and it is always interesting to see more of the Tardis. I was interested in the doctors comment that the Tardis is "infinite", which is a new idea, I think. I know it is huge, but infinite is new.

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Originally posted by doubtingthomas:

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Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:

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Originally posted by Gill H:
A blue crystal from Metebilis 3, eh?
And last week we had an Ice Warrior.
And the week before, they went somewhere the Doctor had visited with his granddaughter.

Hmmm...

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Even more interesting when looked at in the episode order

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There are 4 episodes left in this series, which could cover the rest of the classic incarnations...

BTW, thoroughly enjoyed this one!

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Originally posted by Dormouse:
If the "monsters" were burned up Clara etc why did they kill the "people" in a nasty way? Why didn't they try to warn them or something about what was going to happen, instead of skulking menacingly?

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Originally posted by Robert Armin:
I really liked this theory, so had my eyes peeled for a Tom Baker reference. However I didn't spot anything; all I found was McCoy's umbrella.

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Originally posted by Dafyd:
I am less sure about flipping the reset switch. There was a narrative logic to it, but reset switches always make the foregoing events seem a bit pointless.

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However, the reset switch here was set up from the start, and a central plot point rather then an easy solution. It is a rather metatextual kind of point, and this is flagged at the start of the episode, when Clara complains about events breaching the rules of story-telling, and again at the end by the explicit naming of the device as Big Friendly Button.

Also, unlike your run-of-the-mill dramatic reset button, this one does not render preceding events meaningless - the Doctor tells the brothers to remember, and indeed, things upon the salvage ship have subtly changed when time restarta. Memory seems to be one of the running themes of this season, so this may be more significant than it first appears.
 

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Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on :
 
On the 4th Dr idea, Invasion of Time does have an episode running around the inside of the big big Tardis (including Swimming Pool).

I'm not sure if that distinguishes it from e.g. Edge of Destruction (although even then they clearly have rooms) or the one with the 'House'.
[cross post]

[ 28. April 2013, 18:41: Message edited by: Jay-Emm ]
 

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Posted by doubtingthomas (# 14498) on :
 
There was a fair bit of TARDIS interior in Castrovalva as well, I seem to remember. Plus, I just realise, that episode had a number Escher-like looping architecture (althiough in that case, outside the TARDIS)... are we getting ahead of ourselves here

It may be worth looking at this discussion, for 4th Doctor references and other details:

http://parrot-knight.livejournal.com/945652.html
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
I liked Castrovalva, though I haven't seen it for ages - they had to put the Doctor in the Zero Room to aid his regeneration, I think. Didn't that room get jettisoned in a later episode, along with a few others, for some reason?

Missed last night's episode but The Telegraph slated it, so I'm not sure if I did miss much.
 

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Posted by The Machine Elf (# 1622) on :
 
So far the TARDIS has blown up twice, both times with a lady driver. I'm not sure there's a pattern here, but if so it's not of my making.

I'm kind of assuming the toastees were trying to prevent the pre-toastees from getting to the point it time they were toast.

Also, sometime in the Christopher Eccleston incarnation, I'm sure there was a mention that mauve was the Time Lord colour for danger, but red was the colour for camp.

(edit: pressed ok on send rather than url)

[ 28. April 2013, 21:09: Message edited by: The Machine Elf ]
 

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Posted by Roseofsharon (# 9657) on :
 

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Originally posted by Robert Armin:
had my eyes peeled for a Tom Baker reference. However I didn't spot anything; all I found was McCoy's umbrella.

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Originally posted by The Machine Elf:
I'm kind of assuming the toastees were trying to prevent the pre-toastees from getting to the point it time they were toast.

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Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
It might have been me (still haven't rewatched, remiss of me but I have a lot going on right now), but it seemed that even more dialogue than usual was barely audible gabbled shouting over background noise and/or overloud music. I don't mind when it's just "do this, then that" in fluent technobabble, but I think it was generally quite important to the plot in this case.

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No, it wasn't just you, GG, I couldn't hear half of it either. I know I'm a grumpy old bag, but I am getting increasingly irritated by inaudible dialogue, not just here but in other programmes too. I'm sure I used to be able to hear what Matt Smith said in the first seasons .
 

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Posted by Late Paul (# 37) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
It might have been me (still haven't rewatched, remiss of me but I have a lot going on right now), but it seemed that even more dialogue than usual was barely audible gabbled shouting over background noise and/or overloud music. I don't mind when it's just "do this, then that" in fluent technobabble, but I think it was generally quite important to the plot in this case.

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Originally posted by M.:
Yes, I think Steven Moffatt has said that the last episode will be 'game changing' or 'paradigm shifting' or some such.

It fills me with something akin to dread*.

M.

*'Dread' seemed a bit major for a telly programme, even Doctor Who.

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The problem here is that it seems so much time and effort is put into hinting and foreshadowing that the actual stories are in danger of becoming secondary, which is the big no-no. Story arcs, foreshadowing and in-jokes are all lovely, but if the individual episodes don't stack up as stories, it's all just froth and hot air.

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Originally posted by Robert Armin:
I thought the Doctor was on a quest to find out who Clara was, but there doesn't seem to have been much of that happening. It's a real shame, especially as I am enjoying Clara, and think she makes a fine companion.

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Originally posted by Dafyd:

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Originally posted by Robert Armin:
I thought the Doctor was on a quest to find out who Clara was, but there doesn't seem to have been much of that happening. It's a real shame, especially as I am enjoying Clara, and think she makes a fine companion.

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So far the Doctor's taken Clara to her first alien world (after researching her family), arrived in the wrong place, consulted a psychic about Clara, and tried to get her and the TARDIS to make friends. So there hasn't been a lot of not trying to find out who she is.

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Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Armin:
I thought the Doctor was on a quest to find out who Clara was, but there doesn't seem to have been much of that happening. It's a real shame, especially as I am enjoying Clara, and think she makes a fine companion.

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So far the Doctor's taken Clara to her first alien world (after researching her family), arrived in the wrong place, consulted a psychic about Clara, and tried to get her and the TARDIS to make friends. So there hasn't been a lot of not trying to find out who she is.
Clara herself as a companion showed a bit more character traits this week. Though they were not quite the ones that Moffat's been writing. I still think she's the most generic companion we've had so far.

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Originally posted by Ariston:
Oh, and why does the Doctor have a book laying out on display that only he could have written, one that explains who he is and what he did?

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
For anyone who's been following the TARDIS Eruditorum, it's just emerged from the Doctor Who wilderness years with a gorgeous analysis of Rose.

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Originally posted by Athrawes:
I would like to know what the meaning of the bottles labelled "Encyclopaedia Gallifrey" is, though. They seemed to release voices of some sort.

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I was interested in the doctors comment that the Tardis is "infinite", which is a new idea, I think. I know it is huge, but infinite is new. [/qb]

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Originally posted by Longshanks:

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I was interested in the doctors comment that the Tardis is "infinite", which is a new idea, I think. I know it is huge, but infinite is new.

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At one stage there was a theory that most of the tardis didn't move only the door, but I can't remember where it came from. I seem to remember the 4th Doctor in a library but not that big one. [/QB]

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Originally posted by Matt Black:
There was also the alternative control room which we saw in the Masque of Mandragora

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Originally posted by The Rogue:
Does the Doctor sleep?

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Originally posted by The Rogue:
Does the Doctor sleep? I vaguely remember someone else going to bed and he was staying in the control room, minding the ship**. If he does spend so much time in the control room why hasn't he got a comfy sofa?

** We've never seen him pee, either. Sorry.

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
the little engine room that Doctor Two visits in The Mind Robber,

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I don't think we've ever had the TARDIS library before, though. Workshops, the swimming pool, cloisters, an art gallery, and a cricket pavilion, yes, but no library.

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Originally posted by orfeo:
Look, I know I pop in about 1960s DW a lot lately, and it's crazy to do it after just one episode, but... the first episode of The Seeds of Death was fantastic.

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Originally posted by orfeo:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
the little engine room that Doctor Two visits in The Mind Robber,

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Blimey. I only just watched that one, and I haven't the faintest recollection of what you're talking about.

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Episode 1. After they've escaped from Dulkis, he potters off into another room - I think he actually calls it the power room - and Jamie and Zoe start seeing things on the scanner. (I watched it a couple of weeks ago. )
 

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Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
Ah yes. Visual memory has now been successfully recalled!

(Seeds of Death ep2 also quite good. Not perfect (yes! lets send these complete strangers to do our repair job!) but quite good.)
 

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Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :
 

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Originally posted by The Rogue:
If he does spend so much time in the control room why hasn't he got a comfy sofa?

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quote:

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Originally posted by The Rogue:
Does the Doctor sleep? I vaguely remember someone else going to bed and he was staying in the control room, minding the ship**. If he does spend so much time in the control room why hasn't he got a comfy sofa?

** We've never seen him pee, either. Sorry.

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Originally posted by Ariston:
Wasn't there some comment from Amy in Doctor's Wife, lost in the bunk ex hubbub, asking if the Doctor had a room...and him not answering?

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Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I haven't been watching this series as consistently as usual but I enjoyed tonight's episode a lot - Jenny and Madame Vastra are two of my favourite new characters. Would love a BBC Three spin-off featuring them!

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Know what these are? The wrong hands.

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Originally posted by Penny S:
a place like Bourneville reputedly making matches (Bryant & May, Quakers).

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Originally posted by orfeo:
You know, the more I watch 60s Doctor Who, the more I realise how often they're mining it in the Matt Smith years for ideas.

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Originally posted by ken:
Only thing that really grated was the anachronistic music. (Is that overdoing the pedantry?)

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I don't think that spotting the clearly incorrect music gets anywhere near the level of pedantry of knowing the complete back catalogue of Doctor who of the last 50 years in minute detail. In any case, pedantry isn't bad, is it?
 

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Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :
 

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Originally posted by balaam:

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Originally posted by Penny S:
a place like Bourneville reputedly making matches (Bryant & May, Quakers).

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Or Saltaire?

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Originally posted by ken:
Only thing that really grated was the anachronistic music. (Is that overdoing the pedantry?)

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Originally posted by Ariel:
What's the significance of Ada? All I can think of is the Babbage Engine, and I'm not sure that that fits here.

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Originally posted by Firenze:

ETA You can read their adventures here.

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Originally posted by Penny S:
If you can bring yourself to watch a bit of it, run through to Mrs G at her console and take a look at the difference engine they went to the bother of building just to smash with a chair after a few seconds in view.

I haven't found any references to that anywhere. It makes the choice of Ada's name not an accident.

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Thank you for drawing attention to that - the difference engine is not something I would have recognized (althought I am familiar with both Ada Lovelace and, to some extent, her web-comic alter ego).

I think a further external reference was Jenny kicking ass in a cat-suit - surely a nod to Diana Rigg's contribution to genre televison?
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 

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Originally posted by Penny S:
Sudden attack of pedantry....

I believe the colour used in the programme was not crimson. Carmine, maybe. It could have been my set settings, but it did not look as though it was dark enoough for crimson. Though a search in google images suggests a lot of overlap - it definitely did not match the colour in my paintbox.

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Originally posted by Ariel:
Right. The Pantone finder is here. (You might have to type "red" into the search box.) I'm voting for Pantone 18-1664-TX, aka Fiery Red. Though High Risk Red (18-1763-TPX) is also a possibility.

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I think you are right, though my screen doesn't distinguish between them totally effectively. The crimson is quite different from what the programme was using. And carmine is pinker than I thought from my Leichner stage stuff. They could have gone for the Scarlet Terror, couldn't they?

Elsewhere, someone has pointed out the Poe reference with the Amontillado, which I spotted but forgot, and another parallel with the Red Death. And apparently, there's one of those Holmes cases which was referred to but never written, like the giant rat, involving a red leech.

Didn't it have a look of the Olympics opening? (And there are those who think that was linked to a terrible plot to destroy the world as we know it.)
 

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Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 
Ada Lovelace is a general amazing badass, and deserves more shoutouts in general culture. I think she's finally beginning to get her due—between this and Nick Harkaway's Angelmaker (a pretty great book, by the way, for anyone who likes Who-style slightly campy and extremely whimsical doomsday aversion thrillers), I think she may become Steampunk's patron saint.

Loved the Tegan references. Came into this one hoping for a good #5 reference (though not much beats the Doctor's description of the Time Lords as having "dreadful hats and bad fashion sense," as well as another inside-the-TARDIS episode), and, as a Tegan fan, was glad to get one.

Groaned at the TomTom joke. Ah well, what can you do?

Strax...well, okay. I've been thinking about this one a lot, since he's pretty much ruined any ability for the Sontarins to be taken seriously ever again. But, in the end, that may be kind of the point. Who has enough warlike, invincible races that we don't need an extra one—and, in this post-Cold War day and age, the Sontarin breed of militarism seems more ridiculous than frightening. As the Eridutorium often points out, Who reflects its society; the scripts are part of the discursive field, a product of the form-of-life and mentality of those who wrote it. What do we fear today? That a massive army comprised of an Alliance of Evil is going to attack the free world? NATO vs. the Warsaw Pact is a fear of the past. Today, we have more to fear from the hidden enemies who look innocent, from men with box cutters on planes and children in Africa with very adult guns, than we do from Russia. What are today's terrors? The weeping angels are a facet of our dread of terrorists—average and everyday, kept at bay only by eternal vigilance—while the Judoon are the international peacekeepers, a neutral force that acts with single-minded determination, but, perhaps, does more harm than good...or perhaps nothing at all. A shadowy cabal of fanatics that answers to no authority and nobody can track down? That'd be the Silence. We've had a few good computer/technology based enemies (the ATMOS device, the wi-fi base stations) to play on that fear. Who are the belligerent leaders threatening their enemies that they will die in a rain of fire these days? Psy with a bad haircut, missiles that can't reach the targets promised with destruction, and a starving populace?

So we get Strax. Blind militarism for militarism's sake just isn't scary any more—it's ridiculous and more than a little pathetic.
 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
I think the Sontarans were always intended to be ridiculous, and sometimes they haven't been ridiculous enough. The first Sontaran we ever saw, Linx, was a Blimp and a mess-room bore, and his story, The Time Warrior was more of a comedy than many nu-Who stories. I think the Sontarans were mishandled in their next two stories, before their creator, Robert Holmes, restored their image as militaristic idiots in The Two Doctors.

Strax is just ridiculous in his own particular way - a Sontaran out of his natural element, always longing to go and "play with his grenades". But there was a lovely moment in The Snowmen, after all his clowning earlier in the story, when the house was under attack, and suddenly we saw Strax the strategist and warrior. He wasn't written quite as well by Gatiss, but the fact that the baddie was killed by a Sontaran gun is an interesting point in the show's ethics.

All in all, I've grown rather fond of him.
 

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Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
Strax is a wonderful character. As others have said, there are plenty of good warlike races, and if you want mindless aggression, you always have the Darleks.

Strax is one of those characters who you want to have on your side, but taking orders, and advising on strategy, although not running things. You do not want him on the other side from you.

What is more, he provides a useful sense of comedy warrior. He is deliberately poking fun at those whose only response to any situation is to blow it up. That is one of the interesting aspects of Who, that the response to a situation is never just force, although it is always helpful to have force on your side, while you negotiate.
 

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Posted by Aravis (# 13824) on :
 
Does anyone have any guesses about where Sweetville was filmed? South Wales shipmates recognise a lot of the locations - the TARDIS library is in Cardiff Castle, for example, and the trailer showed some views of Castell Coch that turn up next week - but those big angular brick buildings have me puzzled.

I didn't get the Tom-Tom joke until my teenager kindly explained it.
 

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Posted by Inanna (# 538) on :
 
I haven't been able to watch the episode again to check whether this is real, or a photoshop job... but apparently Charlie the Badger made a guest appearance in this week's episode:

http://doctorwho.tumblr.com/image/49702295591
 

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Posted by doubtingthomas (# 14498) on :
 

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Originally posted by Aravis:
Does anyone have any guesses about where Sweetville was filmed?

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I didn't get the Tom-Tom joke until my teenager kindly explained it.

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Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Was chatting to friend who thinks Clara is Riversong struggling to get out of Library. Would explain ease of her relationship with Doctor, and River knowing Doctor's name. What do you think?

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Originally posted by orfeo:
I'm back in classic mode. So, The War Games... pretty good, eh?

Except the last episode honestly drags it down a bit. I know in hindsight it's all supposed to be tremendously significant and all that, but while actually watching the story it was noticeably lacking in energy compared to episodes 1-9.

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Originally posted by orfeo:
I'm back in classic mode. So, The War Games... pretty good, eh?

Except the last episode honestly drags it down a bit. I know in hindsight it's all supposed to be tremendously significant and all that, but while actually watching the story it was noticeably lacking in energy compared to episodes 1-9.

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Originally posted by Ariston:
Which makes me wonder—what are the archetypical settings/plot devices/tropes of Doctors 6 and 7?

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Originally posted by Robert Armin:
So the Doctor taking Clara to an alien planet, famous for its singers but which has no connection whatsoever with Daleks, is part of him investigating her past? I'd really like some of you who put that idea forward to approve my expenses claim!

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Originally posted by Dafyd:
Having just rewatched it...

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