Ship of Fools: Hell: Bethel brainwashing

Thread: Hell: Bethel brainwashing Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

This just in from Bethel church, Redding, California:

Sixteen flood victims raised from the dead in Brazil

Now, if someone can come up with some decent evidence, I'll just have to repent. But this article smells rotten from the start. No names and confused writing. The link to the alleged article in the local paper on that page is broken, but I found it on this blog. The screenshot of the page looks like a bad photoshop and while my Portuguese isn't up to much, I don't think the lead story is about 16 resurrections.

Besides, the local paper is actually online and has a list of articles by date. The only available article for the alleged date of publication, Jan 16, is the list of local dead.

This is the church whose leader got an enthusiastic reception at New Wine a few years back and whose conferences, while clearly charismatic, are exerting influence well beyond that sphere.

How can any church claiming to be a responsible organisation make such huge (and, to the victims, grossly insensitive) claims without better substantiation - and get away with it? It took me all of five minutes to dig up those links above. Are they so self-deluded they can't even be bothered to check the veracity of any testimony they get sent?

How long before the whistle gets blown on this deception?

[ 10. January 2015, 20:43: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

Yup - looks like a load of bollocks to me.

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :

There's a bit of numerology at the end of the article, which sends my bullshitometer off the scale.

This kind of thing doesn't glorify God. Stop it Bethel and your nutjob mates.

Posted by Niteowl2 (# 15841) on :

Did a little reading up on the church. It appears to be an Assemblies of God church on the far, far end of the charismatic prosperity gospel spectrum. Just an example of one of the teachers who will be teaching at an event in February:

Bob Jones:

"When only seven years old and walking on a dirt road in Arkansas; the Arch Angel Gabriel appeared to Bob Jones on a white horse and blew a double silver trumpet in his face. He then threw an old bull skin mantle at Bob’s feet. Although fearful at the time he ran, however, many years later he returned to pick up that old mantle which is that of a Seer Prophet. Bob Jones is known as a contemporary prophet with a great love for the Lord Jesus and His truth. His prophesies have spanned over four decades as the Lord has enabled him to foretell earthquakes, tidal waves, comets, and weather patterns. Like Daniel who functioned at an incredible level, Bob has often told leaders their dreams and experiences, as well as the interpretation.

After his death experience in 1975 God sent him back to minister to church leadership and reach the multitudes with His love, truth and equipping the saints with understanding of the spiritual gifts. God promised Bob that he would see the beginning of one billion souls coming into the kingdom in one great wave of the end time harvest.

Bob moves with a clear revelatory gifting, accompanied by gifts of healing and miracles."

This is one church I'd run from as fast as I could.

Posted by Imaginary Friend (# 186) on :

It's parody, right?

Posted by Niteowl2 (# 15841) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
It's parody, right?

Nope.

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
After his death experience in 1975

Death experience?

Does that mean the guy is actually dead, or merely toyed with the idea of death in a non-fatal way?

Because, you know, if there's an actual dead guy preaching the Word, I don't know whether to book a front row seat or practice my head-shots...

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:

quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
It's parody, right?
Nope.

If you're in the kind of CofE church from which people go to New Wine, the chances are good that folks from your congregation have heard the leader of Bethel, Bill Johnson, speak.

[ 23. January 2011, 13:01: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by Niteowl2 (# 15841) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
If you're in the kind of CofE church from which people go to New Wine, the chances are good that folks from your congregation have heard the leader of Bethel, Bill Johnson, speak.

You just triggered the memory of meeting this pastor when I was working for a brief time with a ministry team in Weaverville back in 1979. Small world. Bethel is not one I'd visit or work with now, going by the "testimony" in your OP and some of the guest teachers they have.

Posted by the giant cheeseburger (# 10942) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Because, you know, if there's an actual dead guy preaching the Word, I don't know whether to book a front row seat or practice my head-shots...

Depending on how well the head-shot practice goes you may still need a front row seat.

Posted by pjkirk (# 10997) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
How long before the whistle gets blown on this deception?

The whistle gets blown often. Few are listening, though.

It's like that story of the angel in a remote chinese village who showed up with bibles and converted this village that hadn't heard of Christianity. As farcical as it is, it keeps showing back up, even on here.

This one is easier to debunk, but still....if it takes hold, it'll be there for quite a while.

All this makes me wonder if, in Revelation, there shouldn't've been a verse "And anyone who shall make up fake feel-good bullshit in My name shall be well and fucked when his day comes."

Posted by The Great Gumby (# 10989) on :

The only thing keeping me interested in this story is the question of exactly who fabricated what, and when.

But taking it at face value, I'm surprised that no one at Bethel's noticed the obvious symbolism of what happened. This occurred in Brazil, an overwhelmingly Catholic country, and 16 people were resurrected (10+5+1, as they say, or to put it another way, XVI). Clearly, this is a call to the nations to return to the bosom of Rome under Benedict XVI. Surprisingly, this seems to have escaped them - I wonder why?

(All obviously very tongue-in-cheek, but I'd expect such a remarkable miracle to be accompanied some sort of prophetic word, and I've heard much more hung on much less.)

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by pjkirk:

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
How long before the whistle gets blown on this deception?
The whistle gets blown often. Few are listening, though.

Yes, but this is not just some backwoods tin hut mission. It's a ministry that many mainstream Anglicans (for instance) seem to take seriously (although I hear that some big shot from New Wine has since called BS on it in a polite, non-confrontational way...).

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Because, you know, if there's an actual dead guy preaching the Word, I don't know whether to book a front row seat or practice my head-shots...
Depending on how well the head-shot practice goes you may still need a front row seat.

*gives tgb my best 1000-yard stare*

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
This occurred in Brazil, an overwhelmingly Catholic country

I understand pentecostalism is sweeping Brazil and between that and secularization the RCC is feeling squeezed.

Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
Bob Jones:
"When only seven years old and walking on a dirt road in Arkansas; the Arch Angel Gabriel appeared to Bob Jones on a white horse and blew a double silver trumpet in his face. He then threw an old bull skin mantle at Bob’s feet. Although fearful at the time he ran, however, many years later he returned to pick up that old mantle which is that of a Seer Prophet.."

When I read this it was an entirely different part of the bull that came to mind [Roll Eyes]

Huia

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

Just checked with a Brazilian Portuguese colleague. According to her, even allowing for the sub-Grauniad spelling of journalists, the article is so full of basic grammatical errors that it there is no way it was published in a newspaper.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Sixteen flood victims raised from the dead in Brazil (...) The link to the alleged article in the local paper on that page is broken, but I found it on this blog.

I see someone has found time to "fix" the link on the Bethel page, but it doesn't point to what they claim it points to... it points here, which shows lots of pictures of dead bodies and coffins, but no resurrections
[Disappointed]

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

quote:
Originally posted by Niteowl2:
After his death experience in 1975
Death experience?

Does that mean the guy is actually dead, or merely toyed with the idea of death in a non-fatal way?

Because, you know, if there's an actual dead guy preaching the Word, I don't know whether to book a front row seat or practice my head-shots...

Indeed; surely some material there for George A Romero?

Posted by The Great Gumby (# 10989) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:

quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
This occurred in Brazil, an overwhelmingly Catholic country
I understand pentecostalism is sweeping Brazil and between that and secularization the RCC is feeling squeezed.

Sure, go ahead and spoil my fun. But you learn something new every day, so thanks.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

They've pulled the alleged newspaper report and the related link and put up a pathetic disclaimer which alleges all the same things on even less evidence. I have a screengrab of the original page and of the "newspaper report", though...

Posted by monkeylizard (# 952) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Because, you know, if there's an actual dead guy preaching the Word, I don't know whether to book a front row seat or practice my head-shots...

Ammo is cheap, so always remember Rule#2. Double-tap.

Posted by ianjmatt (# 5683) on :

Not that I am particularly a fan, but I have heard that New Wine are consciously distancing themselves from the whole prosperity/neo-gnostic thing they got embroiled with a few years ago. Last year's list was a lot more 'centrist' - someone told me there was something of an apology to church leaders for the speakers booked around 2005 - 2008.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

Any chance of finding a link? I think it's high time Bethel was exposed, not just quietly dropped.

Posted by ianjmatt (# 5683) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Any chance of finding a link? I think it's high time Bethel was exposed, not just quietly dropped.

Afraid not. It was all word of mouth. You know how these things work [Eek!]

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

I'm glad New Wine are distancing themselves from Bethel and doing 'the decent thing'.

They will do this in a quietly Anglican way, no doubt.

It's a shame they aren't more Anglican in everything else ...

[Razz]

Posted by sanityman (# 11598) on :

quote:
Originally posted by monkeylizard:

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Because, you know, if there's an actual dead guy preaching the Word, I don't know whether to book a front row seat or practice my head-shots...
Ammo is cheap, so always remember Rule#2. Double-tap.

Or even go for the Mozambique drill?

Also I notice that Bethel has pulled the testimony in question: "Sorry, looks like you were trying to locate something that we couldn't find." The last listed testimony is now from the 18th Jan. At least they're not incompetent as well as credulous.

- Chris.

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I understand pentecostalism is sweeping Brazil and between that and secularization the RCC is feeling squeezed.

quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
Sure, go ahead and spoil my fun. But you learn something new every day, so thanks.

I wish there was another way...

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sanityman:
At least they're not incompetent as well as credulous.

No retraction and no apology, though. And I don't expect they'll be saying anything to their folks who picked up on it, either.

Posted by Chapelhead (# 21) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sanityman:
"Sorry, looks like you were trying to locate something we couldn't find."

Yes, signs of intelligent life.

Posted by ianjmatt (# 5683) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

It's a shame they aren't more Anglican in everything else ...

Posted by sanityman (# 11598) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:
Originally posted by sanityman:
At least they're not incompetent as well as credulous.
No retraction and no apology, though. And I don't expect they'll be saying anything to their folks who picked up on it, either.

First rule of urban legends: retractions don't propagate. The truth is uninteresting compared to the spicy story that you had to share, and retraction causes the retractor to lose face. And thus the story carries on doing the rounds, and Craig Shergold continues to receive cards.

Unfortunately, stories of answered prayers and other miraculous happening propagate in exactly the same way as urban legends, and retractions are socially taboo in church circles. It worries me that some people seem to build their entire basis of faith around those type of stories.

- Chris.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sanityman:
It worries me that some people seem to build their entire basis of faith around those type of stories.

Indeed. ISTM that the entire culture of Bethel is devoted to this. They actively discourage even healthy scepticism (remember that "building a doctrine out of a disappointment" quote?).

Thus you have an emperor's new clothes type of set-up. They might be scared to retract for fear of undermining people's faith, so they don't. So they are in even more of a tricky position the next time round. And so it goes on, in larger and larger proportions.

The "disclaimer" (which has itself now disappeared and which, unlike the original article, I didn't get a screengrab of), said something to the effect that "we've taken down the newspaper article because so many people wrote in, but we still think it's true". The implicit blame is on the people calling BS for not playing along, not a calling into question of the facts.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

Found a very similar disclaimer here, though:

quote:
It has come to our attention that the alleged newspaper article originally included in this post needs further investigation therefore we have removed it from the post.
However, at this point, we remain confident that our source is reliable and this story is true. All testimonies from God, like gifts, are received by faith. The choice is yours to believe

Posted by mdijon (# 8520) on :

There's nothing new under the sun.

quote:
Falsehood flies, and Truth comes limping after it; so that when men come to be undeceived, it is too late, the jest is over, and the tale has had its effect: like a man who has thought of a good repartee, when the discourse is changed, or the company parted: or, like a physician who has found out an infallible medicine, after the patient is dead.

(J. Swift)

Posted by Niteowl2 (# 15841) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Found a very similar disclaimer here, though:

quote:
It has come to our attention that the alleged newspaper article originally included in this post needs further investigation therefore we have removed it from the post.
However, at this point, we remain confident that our source is reliable and this story is true. All testimonies from God, like gifts, are received by faith. The choice is yours to believe

And of course, if you don't believe the testimony you don't have faith.

I highly doubt there will be another word on the site about the Brazilian "resurrections".

Posted by sanityman (# 11598) on :

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
There's nothing new under the sun.

quote:
Falsehood flies, and Truth comes limping after it; so that when men come to be undeceived, it is too late, the jest is over, and the tale has had its effect: like a man who has thought of a good repartee, when the discourse is changed, or the company parted: or, like a physician who has found out an infallible medicine, after the patient is dead.
(J. Swift)

Love the quote!

- Chris.

Posted by HughWillRidmee (# 15614) on :

From their Contact Us page

"Because of a high volume in e-mails and phone calls, we may not be able to get back to you. This does not pertain to conference registration or ibethel store orders. Thank you for understanding."

Translation? - We may not bother to get back to you unless you're trying to give us money. You will understand that people who aren't trying to give us money can go to hell.

Posted by Geneviève (# 9098) on :

From the link to the Healing Herald site, this paragraph jumped out at me:

quote:
After chapel on Saturday morning when they fell under the power, the team went out into the streets and the morgue and raised 16 people who had died in the floods 3 days earlier from the dead

(Bold added by me)In the summer in Brazil, bodies from a flood that had been lying around for three days????

oops, silly me!!!! I just didn't get the obvious resurrection implication. And the circumstances were so similar [Help]

[ 26. January 2011, 02:57: Message edited by: Geneviève ]

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

Follow-up: this story was still being held up as an example to follow in a local church last Sunday. [Disappointed]

Meanwhile, this just in from Bill Johnson:

"You can only hold on to one thing at a time - the promise of God or disappointment. You'll have to drop one to embrace the other." [Mad]

Posted by irish_lord99 (# 16250) on :

Geez... hearing this kind of stuff is NOT good for my soul. This idea that you can't be a conscientious observer and still have faith drives me mad! Honestly, I say let the likes of Bill Johnson drink the purple cool-aid... it's the one's who blindly follow them chanting "hallelujah" that I feel sorry for.

This is one of the reasons I'm starting to seriously question the entire Protestant line of thinking, any cowboy with a Bible in his hand can claim to be a "leader", or an "apostle", or what-have-you and he'll get people following him right up to the vat. They're not accountable to anyone to explain their action, theology, or in this case the use of the "testimony" they collect; and God forbid you ask to look into their finances!

I really think the Orthodox and Catholics might have something with that whole hierarchy thing.

~Jake

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

Um, welcome to Hell. That's a brave place to make a maiden post...

[ 25. February 2011, 07:38: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by irish_lord99 (# 16250) on :

Eh... I can take it. [Help]

Actually, you're the one that brought me to the ship, I was researching NFI you see...

But don't let me drag the thread off topic, I'm just saying "thanks for the welcome."

~Jake

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Um, welcome to Hell. That's a brave place to make a maiden post...

That's all right. They leave virginity at the Door, didn't you, my sweet?

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Um, welcome to Hell. That's a brave place to make a maiden post...

This one looks like he might fit right in [Smile]

Posted by goperryrevs (# 13504) on :

quote:
Originally posted by sanityman:
And thus the story carries on doing the rounds, and Craig Shergold continues to receive cards.

Craig beat his cancer, and grew up to have a successful comedy career on Peep Show, QI and That Mitchell and Webb Look.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Eutychus: I have a screengrab of the original page and of the "newspaper report", though...

Is this the screengrab? To the left the original newspaper, to the right the same paper after it was Photoshopped by Bethel. Yes, the newspaper report is *very* convincing [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

The one on the right is the initial purported article which according to a native Brazilian Portuguese speaker colleague of mine is absolutely not worthy of a newspaper article grammar-wise and everything else (she refused to waste her time translating it).

Besides, the font is wrong. If we've got any native Brazilian Portuguese speakers on board willing to waste their time *cough* I mean "perform a valuable service in the interests of the Ship community and the Truth™", and attempt a translation into English, I'll find my bigger screengrab when I can.

(at first glance the one on the left is bona fide; but as I said upthread, I see bodies, not resurrections...).

[actually, looking at the title of your screengrab more closely, I wonder whether a link to wherever it was posted might be productive. It seems to be being discussed in Brazil for some reason [Smile]

]

[ 25. February 2011, 11:34: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Eutychus: It seems to be being discussed in Brazil for some reason

I did a search on Brazilian sites, but in fact I found very little. I can do a translation if you find the text (or at least point out how many errors there are.)

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Eutychus: (at first glance the one on the left is bona fide; but as I said upthread, I see bodies, not resurrections...).

I'm sorry for the double post, but I'm afraid you didn't understand. The picture on the left is the real front page from O Diário de Teresópolis that day, which mentions nothing about people being raised from the dead.

The picture on the right is... something else.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

That's more or less what I said (I'm sorry, I'm laid up and ill this afternoon and didn't even notice you were in Brazil [Hot and Hormonal]

. I'll get back to you asap).

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

Here you are. Have at it.

[message to self, do not post while febrile]

[ 25. February 2011, 16:40: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

Oh boy.

Even a computer translation will produce better Portuguese than this. I'll try to translate into English, keeping the grammar errors. I'm not sure if posting a full translation would infringe the Ship's copyright policies, so I'll limit myself to some gems:

"The people of the neighbourhood of Caleme watched[singular] Saturday, 5 of dead body's it raised within the dead on the street."

"The people in Caleme informed[singular] that five North-Americans approached[singular] and shouted[singular]: 'Stand up and to live in the name of Jesus'"

"The bodies jolted[singular] and rose[singular] shaking and walking and they were alive."

"The 10 bodies in the morgue of having been left in the hallway since Wednesday."

"The people were[this time in plural!] shouting, shouting. Riot in the neighbourhood of Caleme."

"The families of the dead are celebrating and happy[singular]. There was hope in Caleme since Saturday."

Brazilian newspapers are notorious for their spelling errors. But this kind of grammar errors, especially using the singular vorm of a verb with a plural noun, is nothing that a Brazilian would make.

Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :

This sort of thing doesn't suprise me, given their track record. For anyone who isn't familiar with the church, this will give you a taster:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSNojCrel-I

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Uh-oh chongo ...

Posted by comet (# 10353) on :

[geek aside]

quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Brazilian newspapers are notorious for their spelling errors. But this kind of grammar errors, especially using the singular form of a verb with a plural noun, is nothing that a Brazilian would make.

wow. singular and plural verbs? cool!

[/geek aside]

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

Thanks LeRoc for confirming my colleague's appraisal. I have wondered whether it was actually a Google translate of the English "translation"*.

It's despicable that Bethel have simply pulled the link without publishing a retraction and instead taken the line "well, it could (or indeed ought) to have happened, so let's pretend it did".

The question remains as to the origin of the hoax and the motivations behind it.

*Putting my freelance translator hat on, let this be an injunction on ye [plural, comet [Razz]

] not to use Google translate but to employ one of our number...

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
The question remains as to the origin of the hoax and the motivations behind it.

Origin: Bethel.

Purpose: to convince more dupes to hand over cash.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

I'm not so sure.

For one thing, I think that should they wish to, Bethel have the resources to do a much better Photoshop job!

For another, I think that by and large they are self-deluded rather than wilfully setting out to delude. They have locked themselves into a worldview which they cannot see out of, so they accepted this story uncritically.

They won't publish a retraction because it will be 'felt' (although not necessarily expressed) that it would damage people's faith. Of course, this is likely to damage their faith even further in the long term (or make you wonder what ther faith is in), but there you have it. It's like a spiritual Ponzi scheme.

I'm not letting Bethel off the hook for their lousy research and subsequent actions, but I don't think they originated the hoax.

So qui bono? My guess is some not-very-literate huckster with a printer and a photocopier trading as an "evangelical" in the favelas of Brazil, where such churches appear to be seen by some as a quick route out of the gutter. What does anyone else think?

[ 26. February 2011, 08:32: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

Quid bono. French interference [Hot and Hormonal]

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Yes, you raise an interesting point, Eutychus.

Some of my friends from my former, restorationist church days, are getting into Bill Johnson big time judging by their Facebook pages.

I'm concerned for them.

I did wonder, watching the You Tube clip where the guy was claiming walking on water and walking through walls (a sure way to get a headache) whether he was deliberately hucksterising or whether he'd convinced/deluded himself that these stories were true.

I suppose either way, people are going to get hurt ... [Disappointed]

But it does raise important issues about credulity on the one hand and outright cynicism on the other, and where we draw the line/balance between those two poles.

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :

quote:
Eutychus: I have wondered whether it was actually a Google translate of the English "translation"*.

No, despite its many faults, Google Translate would get the verb forms right.

quote:
Eutychus: My guess is some not-very-literate huckster with a printer and a photocopier trading as an "evangelical" in the favelas of Brazil

No again. These are not the kind of errors that a Brazilian semi-literate huckster would make. This "Portuguese" text was written by an English speaker.

As you know, in English the singular and plural forms of verbs in the past tense are the same: "he walked - they walked", the most important exception being the verb to be: "he was - they were".

In this "Portuguese" text, the only instance where they realise that the plural form should be different from the singular, is where they try to translate "they were".

quote:
comet: wow. singular and plural verbs? cool!

You should try them sometimes [Razz]

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I suppose either way, people are going to get hurt

Or at least wet...

quote:
But it does raise important issues about credulity on the one hand and outright cynicism on the other, and where we draw the line/balance between those two poles.

I think it's been nailed on the current healing thread. Belief in healing? Fine by me. Making it a central plank of your theology and, for want of a better word, your Unique Selling Proposition? Totally and utterly wrong.

We need a theology which encompasses both Jesus' declarations to John the Baptist's emissaries - and the fact that John never made it out of jail. (Well, since this is Hell, he did, but not in one piece...).

[ETA: to LeRoc: oo-er...]

[ 26. February 2011, 09:07: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

Posted by Janine (# 3337) on :

Yes indeed; as has been mentioned: there's a delicate balance between the two extremes -- between absolute, childlike faith --

The faith that makes one say, "My God can handle this. Everything will be alright. But even if He chooses to let it all go to Hell this time, I will not bow down to your idol, I will not give in to your fear; that faith, the one I reach for every day --

And the other side, the faithless side, where men sit willfully blind to wonder, their faces painfully jammed up against an efflorescent brick wall for fear of finding something bigger than themselves, something that initially appears to make no sense -- something they can't master.

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
... Some of my friends from my former, restorationist church days, are getting into Bill Johnson big time judging by their Facebook pages...

"Jesus I know, and Paul I've heard of, but who is Bill Johnson?"

[Devil]

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Quid bono. French interference

I think you mean cui bono.

Moo

Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
And the other side, the faithless side, where men sit willfully blind to wonder, their faces painfully jammed up against an efflorescent brick wall for fear of finding something bigger than themselves, something that initially appears to make no sense -- something they can't master.

This isn't meant as an insult - but I really don't find this attitude present much (outside of the parodies floated around in Charismatic circles).

I believe in miracles enough that I think they'd be easy to distinguish from some cheap parlour trick.

Posted by Shiprat (# 12808) on :

Bethel Update

quote:
we don’t plan on updating this report beyond this post unless we are able (and willing) to develop more substantial information about this miracle

They have figured out that it is a fake and are setting expectations for no further explanation or questions.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

I'll give them 10/10 for acknowledging mistakes and for issuing the statement - but it's still couched in such a way that leaves the question open as to whether the 'miracle' took place or not - particularly in the first paragraph or two.

I suspect this comes with the territory and doesn't betoken any wheeler-dealing/double standards on their part.

But there is an inherent danger in having an over-realised eschatology and approach to these things. I well remember a big Pentecostal church in the English Midlands where there was an apparent miracle involving a guy in a wheelchair. They acted in good faith and made a big deal of it until it turned out that the guy had been kidding them along and that no healing/miracle had taken place. The pastor at that time even wrote an article in a well-known charismatic magazine outlining how they'd been taken in and how to learn from such mistakes. I take my hat of to him and to them for their honesty and integrity.

I'm still suspicious of Bethel, but at least they're issued this statement. I hope they learn from this.

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :

Thanks for the update, Shiprat. Better than I had hoped for, for sure.

The early part of the text does raise the possibility of the whole thing being a fabrication but the last part appears maintain the assumption that it's true unless proven false, not the reverse.

It's also rather an exaggeration on their part to claim difficulty in verifying testimonies "from half way across the world". I don't speak Portuguese, but it took me all of five minutes to find the paper and its published articles for the day. The more the story matches someone's supernatural expectations, the more carefully they should check it.

There's been a case for training christian leaders in basic journalism skills ever since the disciples put it about that the apostle John would not die before the return of Christ, and these guys are anything but an exception.

Posted by PeteC (# 10422) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Shiprat:
Bethel Update

quote:
we don’t plan on updating this report beyond this post unless we are able (and willing) to develop more substantial information about this miracle
They have figured out that it is a fake and are setting expectations for no further explanation or questions.

Bethel posted that linked article on February 2nd, and that's an "update" over three weeks later?

Why are you still babbling on?

This thread is done like toast, burnt to a crisp.

PeteC
whose headache is now miraculously cured

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