Thread: Purgatory: Revival in Cwmbran? Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by GreyBeard (# 113) on :
 
Does anyone know what's going on in Cwmbran, Wales, at Victory Church?
www.victorychurch.co.uk
GB

[ 27. December 2014, 22:13: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
 

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Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :
 
Ads?
 

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Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :
 
In the most recent 'Outpouring Update', I found the comment about the ability to be anonymous very interesting, particularly in the light of discussions on cathedral worship in Ecclesiantics. Perhaps God is getting charismatics to use a cathedral model?
 

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Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :
 
Llareggub?
 

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Posted by The Rhythm Methodist (# 17064) on :
 
Had me going there, for a mo, Martin - just about everything round here starts with a double 'L'

I guess what's going on in Cwmbran depends on who's telling the story. If I could offer a composite picture based on what I've heard, I'd say it is a sovereign move of the Almighty God. This sovereign move is characterised by hype, people getting pushed-over, uncontrolled and uninterpreted tongues, authority-claiming and devil-rebuking...not to mention vomit-inducing self-indulgence - masquerading as spirituality.

It is attended by those who feel called to experience more of the Holy Spirit, or perhaps those who are manifestation junkies, or even people who are desperate to pick up a 'transferable anointing' to impress the folks back home. Take your pick.
 

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Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
It's not often anything exciting happens in Cwmbran. Not since a team from my old school won Robot Wars with 'Panic Attack' anyway.
 

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Posted by M. (# 3291) on :
 
From the link, I did love the 'Every Night @ 7pm'.

Good to know that God the Holy Spirit keeps to a rigid timetable, and doesn't blow where she listeth.

M.
 

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Posted by Clodsley Shovel (# 16662) on :
 
From checking out some of the twitterings about it it seems they're all jolly excited about it. I've also read a few tweets bemoaning others from local churches who won't get involved, using phrases like 'damp squib' to describe their congregations.

I shouldn't be so cynical but It's not improbable that those 'damp squibs' will still be there long after this is all forgotten, the race not being to the swift etc.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Like Gill H, I grew up in Cwmbran. It was once described as the most boring town in Wales (if not the UK).

Not much happens there. It has a fine sports stadium though, and, by-and-large, better housing stock than is available further west in the old coal-mining Valleys.

Cwmbran is in the Eastern Valley - the most easterly of the valleys, is effectively where the Valleys meet the rolling, more pastoral hills of mid-Gwent. We used to walk miles as kids. We needed to. We wanted to get away ...

It was a collection of around five industrial villages and scattered hamlets until they effectively swamped it with a New Town from the '50s onwards. It always had lighter industries than the mining towns - aluminium, tin-plate, brick-works, then brakes and valves and components.

I don't go back very often - our Mam now lives in a village a few miles out - but I do get the 'hiraeth' for South Wales in general rather than Cwmbran in particular. The scenery around can be spectacular if you know where to look, but the town itself is a dump. The shopping centre seems to be doing better than it was, mind. Free parking.

There are lots of council estates, or former council estates and not much else. So I'm not surprised to find that Victory Church are strutting their stuff there. It's the sort of place where this sort of thing happens. All the ingredients are there.

The area was affected by the Welsh Revival of 1904/05 - I knew people whose parents had been converted at that time. There were around 60 baptisms up at one of the Baptist churches in Pontnewydd at that time.

There were a lot of Baptist churches around. The Penties were quite active too - there were three Pentie churches when I lived there.

From what I can gather, some of the Baptist churches are doing ok but others are struggling. The Anglicans have always had low-ish numbers, the Sally Army has done well at times ... but overall, church attendance if pretty low.

I wouldn't be surprised to find that a lot of the people at these Victory Church meetings are bussed in from elsewhere or are current members of the network who drive in for a piece of the action.

That said, I wouldn't be surprised if a few kids from off the estates are getting caught up in the enthusiasm.

As for what's happening -- come back and ask in six months time when we can see whether anything more has been achieved beyond a temporary buzz.
 

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Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
As for what's happening -- come back and ask in six months time when we can see whether anything more has been achieved beyond a temporary buzz.

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quote:

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Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
The proof of the pudding is in the eating - will people's lives be transformed for the better, will people begin following Jesus, will people submit more parts of their lives to God's ways? I hope so.

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And will they take their spiritual blessings out into the world, and into new and established churches, in order to bring blessings to them too? Or is it all about this place, this time, this leadership, these personalities?
 

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Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on :
 
Their publicity echoes that of the charlatans at Bethel Church in California ('When God Shows Up').

Who needs theology?
 

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Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :
 
Indeed, Adeodatus. I did have a quick look at the website and noted that, while some pages started by saying it's all about God and not at all about the human personalities, the pastor's name and face were quite prominent on the website. That bugs me. And there's a lot of 'Come to us! Experience what God is doing among us!' The specific place and personalities do seem quite important to them...
 

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Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
Ah, yes, the post-Reformation need for charismatics to have a place of pilgrimage...
 

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Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 
Yes, I must say I was particularly impressed by the news item that said (in paraphrase) "it's about God, not personalities - which is why we're bussing in a big-name preacher from elsewhere to give the Pastor a week off!".
 

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Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
Oh no, not again.

For those of us old enough to remember the Toronto Blessing, this looks very similar (you have to bear in mind that the TB was now nearly 20 years ago. A whole new generation has grown up since then!).

I can't bring myself to dismiss everything I experienced in the TB and when I visited the church in 2005, long after it had all died down, I was surprised to find a fairly mainstream charismatic church with a genuine presence in the city (but a loony evening speaker).

However, I no longer believe the TB was as spontaneous as claimed, and neither do I think this is. There is theological and ecclesiological baggage there that predisposes for this, and some of it is really wonky.

In addition, I'm a bit alarmed by the pastor's biography. 'Damascus road' turnarounds of that nature aren't impossible, but I think the claims call for some close scrutiny.
 

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Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
Well that didn't take long.

I'm calling the pastor out as a plagiarist right now.

Evidence is on his blog.

Text of the blogpost dated February 14, 2013 has been on the internet since at least a year earlier. It's lifted wholesale without attribution.

Text of the blogpost dated February 7, 2013 has been on the internet since at least two years earlier.

Both of the blogposts contain word-for-word copy/pasting and are unattributed.

I haven't checked any further, but I think that tells you all you need to know.

Now who wants to do something about it?
 

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Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on :
 
Surprise, surprise, surprise... Zzzzzz. Again and again and again. Well spotted though E!
 

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Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
The thing is, is Zzzz enough?

The reason I got onto this so fast is because I knew what to look for from another similar case.

Somehow, somewhere, there needs to be a wake-up call for people to check out the basic credentials of church leaders and other high-profile christian figures, across the board. In the US at least, I understant plagiarism is usually grounds for dismissal of a pastor.

[ 10. May 2013, 11:58: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Such as?

I'm not sure pointing it out would do any more than convince them that there are 'damp-squibs' and enemies of revival out to dampen the enthusiasm and 'quench the Spirit'.

These things tend to fizzle out soon enough - but they can cause collateral damage.

I think those outfits that survived and thrived following the Toronto thing are those that would have done so 'Blessing' or no 'Blessing'.

I think one of the things that is easily overlooked - and I know I'm often among the first to criticise - is that places like this DO attract some pretty good people who have the stickability to stay the course.

When I look back at the uber-charismatic fellowship I belonged to for 18 years, it's with some admiration for those who have stayed the course through thick and thin. We do need to factor that in, however misguided we believe much of it to be.
 

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Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
I think that a minimum of integrity is a basic requisite for a christian leader.

I have absolutely no truck whatsoever with the argument that we should turn a blind eye to shortcomings "because of all the good that's come out of it".

I think plagiarism of that nature is not a minor shortcoming, either. It raises fundamental questions about ethics and integrity and should alert any responsible trustees to the need to check other aspects and credentials further.

How the person in question deals with the exposure of such shortcomings is probably going to tell you a lot more about their suitability for the ministry, too.
 

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Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
These things tend to fizzle out soon enough

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eutychus:
I'm calling the pastor out as a plagiarist right now.

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Oh dear It's especially sad coming from a guy who (he says) is a 'bible teacher... and Principal of Victory Academy which teaches theology and leadership' (from the header of his blog).

My guess is Gamaliel is right, and any complaint from some keyboard warrior on the internet (i.e. us lot!) won't be heeded. Maybe there's a Shipmate or reader who has some kind of link with Victory Church and fancies having a quiet word in the ear of someone there...
 

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Posted by fletcher christian (# 13919) on :
 
Euty, It's just a blog post - keep it in perspective. Normally blogs are places where people put up random thoughts, stuff they found on the internet that's good, smatterings of prayers, hymns, videos etc. I agree, it would be better if he attributed it, but in my experience people tend not to attribute stuff on blogs; they just post them up in a hurry. It would be different if his blog stated that all posts were his own work and musings, which in this case I don't think he does. Plus, some people do have 'Damascus Road' experiences - genuinely so. Shame the Lord didn't make his Cheech and Chong tat disappear on conversion though
 

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Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
any complaint from some keyboard warrior on the internet (i.e. us lot!) won't be heeded.

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That's true, but it doesn't mean nothing can be done.

I can't say much more about the other investigation I'm involved in right now, but it's been carried out by a whole bunch of us who basically were nothing more than keyboard warriors to start with. It's taken several years and thousands of hours' worth of research, is a story in its own right, and yes there is an element of risk involved.

I'm fairly confident though that ultimately, perhaps quite soon now, something is going to be done and it's going to get the coverage it deserves. Watch this space.
 

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Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on :
 
Folks, it's just another con—move along… The only surprising thing is how much people are willing to invest in each and every one of these circus shows, learning nothing, it seems, from the previous 50 or so similar experiences.
 

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Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :
 
Bloody hell!

Is this really the best you lot can do? "Let's do our utmost to find something dodgy - no matter how small - and that JUST PROVES how evil and devilish and deceptive this fake 'work of God' is!"

Now, shall I apply the same methods to the Catholics, Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists...?

Nah. Life's too short...
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Bloody hell!

Is this really the best you lot can do? "Let's do our utmost to find something dodgy - no matter how small - and that JUST PROVES how evil and devilish and deceptive this fake 'work of God' is!"

Now, shall I apply the same methods to the Catholics, Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists...?

Nah. Life's too short...

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quote:

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Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Bloody hell!

Is this really the best you lot can do? "Let's do our utmost to find something dodgy - no matter how small - and that JUST PROVES how evil and devilish and deceptive this fake 'work of God' is!"

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quote:

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Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Euty, It's just a blog post - keep it in perspective. Normally blogs are places where people put up random thoughts, stuff they found on the internet that's good, smatterings of prayers, hymns, videos etc.

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quote:

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Before coming I checked out their website and took some time to look at founding pastor Richard Taylor’s blog as I often find that the books or websites they recommend gives me a good and quick take on their theology and helps me understand where they are coming from and heading to.

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quote:

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Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Bloody hell!

Is this really the best you lot can do? "Let's do our utmost to find something dodgy - no matter how small - and that JUST PROVES how evil and devilish and deceptive this fake 'work of God' is!"

Now, shall I apply the same methods to the Catholics, Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists...?

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quote:

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Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Bloody hell!

Is this really the best you lot can do? "Let's do our utmost to find something dodgy - no matter how small - and that JUST PROVES how evil and devilish and deceptive this fake 'work of God' is!"

Now, shall I apply the same methods to the Catholics, Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists...?

Nah. Life's too short...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sioni Sais
Feeling persecuted again are we?

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Not sure how to answer that, given that I am not a member of said church, have nothing to do with it, or even necessarily agree with what's going on.

Perhaps the term 'persecuted' has shifted in meaning? Pray, do enlighten me.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I'm sorry, SvitlanaV2, but I have to disagree. I don't think we tend to pile on anything that is apparently growing and successful whilst ignoring those churches which are struggling ...

I'd add, I'm afraid, that if you'd had any exposure/experience of churches like this - and yes, I know your family are Pentecostals but we're talking about Pentecostalism Plus in this instance - you'd have a similar reaction to how Eutychus and others are responding.

South Coast Kevin is a committed charismatic and he has reservations too - based on reactions to the way things are worded on their website etc - which are generally pretty good clues in my experience.

I'm sorry, but this Cwmbran business just has 'uh-oh' written all over it. I think Eutychus is onto something. To be honest, I've a great deal of time and respect for Eutychus's investigative abilities. Perhaps there's a career there for you, Eutychus, as a debunker of religious chicanery?



I'm sorry, but this has all the hallmarks of yet another nine-day wonder with over-extravagant claims and unsubstantiated testimonies and so on. The same old, same old.

If you want to know why Eutychus and others react like that it's because we've seen it, done it, been up close and involved with this sort of thing.

And at the same time, my opinion of EE's discernment abilities is beginning to wane even more dramatically ...
 

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Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :
 
Gamaliel

I didn't say that nobody had the right to criticise this church. Indeed, I said that this church may well deserve criticism - and that's what it's getting, from people who've studied the website and the minister's credentials more closely than I have.

Otherwise, we'll have to agree to disagree.
 

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Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :
 
Gamaliel -

Making a judgement based on 'experience'!!!

Naughty naughty!
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
At least I know how to intepret and evaluate experience, EE ...
 

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Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Eutychus -

OK, so he's plagiarised some content for his blog. His bad.

But it doesn't necessarily mean that his ministry is dodgy. God, after all, uses damaged goods (it's called 'grace' and it's messy).

If he is a man of God (and I will give him the benefit of the doubt, until such time as I have sufficient evidence to think otherwise), then all it needs is someone to tell him that he has made a mistake. And I am sure he will respond as moral necessity dictates.

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Let's hope we find out. After tracking down a trustee of the church and speaking to him on his mobile, I've just sent the trustee this (letter slightly anonymised for the purposes of the Ship).
 

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Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on :
 
Sing it, brother!
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Fair do's, SvitlanaV2, but I suspect that more mainstream churches don't come in for as much stick here as they don't tend to embark on things that are likely to cause as much harm.

Of course, one could criticise them for inertia or whatever else.

But I'm not sure having a stack of people together for a revivalist gathering is that much of an achievement in and of itself.

Some groups appear able to sustain things over time, but they generally tone things down longer term. The traditional, old-time Pentecostals certainly have. It's long been observed that these things happen cyclically in Pentecostal/charismatic settings ... there'll be a bit of an upheaval followed by a period of consolidation, followed by another upheaval, followed by consolidation ...

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just saying how it works.

There's also the issue that some of us have been bitten on the bum by groups like this. I don't see many people here nursing wounds and bruises inflicted by the Methodists, URCs or other less exotic groups.
 

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Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :
 
Very well done, Eutychus. I pray for God's blessing on your efforts, and hope the plagiarism is indeed an honest mistake. I think what you said upthread about how people respond to criticism was spot-on.
 

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Posted by Casineb (# 15588) on :
 
Not only has he plagiarised those posts in his blog, but he's actually combed through them and tweaked sentences, attempting to pass it off as his own work.

I think that shows a greater level of deceitfulness than quickly copy-and-pasting a post he come about, and maybe absent-mindedly forgetting to attribute it.

For a leader who seems to present himself as a teacher, that's really poor behaviour IMO.
 

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Posted by Casineb (# 15588) on :
 
I personally am wary about these kind of revivals, but I still have hope that many of the outsiders who are drawn into these meetings will find Christ. I just fear for the collateral damage that may ensue for others, and possibly put them off Christianity all together.
 

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Posted by Siegfried (# 29) on :
 
Please let us know when the gold fillings start appearing--that's the surest sign of a True Revival.
 

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Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
These things tend to fizzle out soon enough

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Sorry, missed this point.

I have little doubt that the demise of Todd Bentley's Lakeland Revival was largely due to ABC's investigation that demonstrated they had no proof whatsoever of any of their healing testimonies. It came to an end because somebody decided to investigate - it didn't just fizzle out of its own accord.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Matt Black:
Wasn't it also to do with his Ugandan discussions?

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quote:

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On 9 July 2008 ABC News' Nightline broadcast an investigative report on Bentley focusing on his faith healing claims, finances, and criminal past. Following the report, Bentley took time off from the revival but returned on 18 July 2008. Five days later, Bentley and Strader announced that Bentley would be leaving the revival permanently and that his last day would be 23 August 2008.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel
And at the same time, my opinion of EE's discernment abilities is beginning to wane even more dramatically ...

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Jumping to conclusions without properly evaluating the evidence is not proper discernment, hence my reaction earlier (which I admit was a bit OTT. Sorry about that ). Also, making assumptions on the basis of "once bitten, twice shy" is not proper discernment, but is actually discrimination based on the imposition of stereotypes. Being proven right about a dodgy church does not necessarily justify the dubious means by which that conclusion is reached.

Anyway... having looked at a bit more of Richard Taylor's blog, I would agree that there is something troubling, particularly the following:

quote:

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Here we go again. Steve Chalke says he's evangelical but loves hitting the headlines for all the wrong reasons. As if the church needed more compromising liberals joining the gang. The Christian world is now asking whether or not Steve Chalke, the Baptist minister, is an evangelical or not. He's already rejected the substitutionary atonement and now he blesses gay couples after a Civil Partnership. I've never been to [sic] shy to say what I think and my guess is that he himself is gay and yet come out* (watch this space).

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

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Originally posted by Matt Black:
Wasn't it also to do with his Ugandan discussions?

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With regard to Todd Bentley, I have no idea what you're referring to.

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Wikipedia gives
this

For 'Ugandan discussions', see here.
 

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Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
Ah, this is a Private Eye expression. This is where I feel really French .

Personally, for Bentley, I think the ABC exposé was what took the lid off.

[ETA: for how Lakeland was discussed on the Ship back in the day, see here and later here.]

[ 10. May 2013, 18:29: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
 

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Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:

quote:

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Originally posted by Sioni Sais
Feeling persecuted again are we?

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Not sure how to answer that, given that I am not a member of said church, have nothing to do with it, or even necessarily agree with what's going on.

Perhaps the term 'persecuted' has shifted in meaning? Pray, do enlighten me.

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quote:

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Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:

Anyway... having looked at a bit more of Richard Taylor's blog, I would agree that there is something troubling, particularly the following:

quote:

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Here we go again. Steve Chalke says he's evangelical but loves hitting the headlines for all the wrong reasons. As if the church needed more compromising liberals joining the gang. The Christian world is now asking whether or not Steve Chalke, the Baptist minister, is an evangelical or not. He's already rejected the substitutionary atonement and now he blesses gay couples after a Civil Partnership. I've never been to [sic] shy to say what I think and my guess is that he himself is gay and yet come out* (watch this space).

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* presumably this is "yet to come out"

I would agree that this personal attack on Steve Chalke (whose theology I do not altogether agree with) doesn't look good.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I suspect that more mainstream churches don't come in for as much stick here as they don't tend to embark on things that are likely to cause as much harm.

Of course, one could criticise them for inertia or whatever else.
[...]
Some groups appear able to sustain things over time, but they generally tone things down longer term. The traditional, old-time Pentecostals certainly have. It's long been observed that these things happen cyclically in Pentecostal/charismatic settings ... there'll be a bit of an upheaval followed by a period of consolidation, followed by another upheaval, followed by consolidation ...
[...]
There's also the issue that some of us have been bitten on the bum by groups like this. I don't see many people here nursing wounds and bruises inflicted by the Methodists, URCs or other less exotic groups.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I don't see many people here nursing wounds and bruises inflicted by the Methodists, URCs or other less exotic groups.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Best to talk tidy 'bout all 'iss, now isn't it?

'Meantasay, wait'n'see, isn't it? Stands to reason, stands to reason dunnit?

I do reckon 'iss woan'ave tha' much effect on Cwmbran wha'soever. Ok, doan ge'me wrong, yew may gerr some of'a local yewt' involved 'n'aw ... burr'a'ud be as far as i' do go.

'Migh' be wrong. Waidunsee. Burreyedoanreckon' much to i' from wharreyeve'yeard so far.

Waidunsee. Waidunsee isn't it?

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quote:

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Boot it into touch esp if (and it's a big if) it's being hyped by plagaristic blogs.

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quote:

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Originally posted by FreeJack:
Was he the guy who used to be with Renewal Centre in Solihull (crazy side of charismatic) and the Free Methodist Church (normal side of charismatic)?

I can see why he plays well in the valleys. He's a story-teller rather than a factually-based chronicler.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Boot it into touch esp if (and it's a big if) it's being hyped by plagaristic blogs.

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Are you disputing my claim that the blogposts linked to are plagiarised? And if so, on what grounds?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eutychus:
Well that didn't take long.

I'm calling the pastor out as a plagiarist right now.

Evidence is on his blog.

Text of the blogpost dated February 14, 2013 has been on the internet since at least a year earlier. It's lifted wholesale without attribution.

Text of the blogpost dated February 7, 2013 has been on the internet since at least two years earlier.

Both of the blogposts contain word-for-word copy/pasting and are unattributed.

I haven't checked any further, but I think that tells you all you need to know.

Now who wants to do something about it?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eutychus:
I think that a minimum of integrity is a basic requisite for a christian leader.

I have absolutely no truck whatsoever with the argument that we should turn a blind eye to shortcomings "because of all the good that's come out of it".

I think plagiarism of that nature is not a minor shortcoming, either. It raises fundamental questions about ethics and integrity and should alert any responsible trustees to the need to check other aspects and credentials further.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Drewthealexander:
It's such a shame that your [Eutychus'] default position is, once again, to assume the worst. Richard York quotes on his blog, text that has appeared elsewhere on the Internet. But where did Mr York come by this text? Did he lift it wholesale from elsewhere? Did someone send it to him in an email? Did he copy and paste it into a file of interesting quotes without noting the author? Is this really a deliberate attempt by him to gain credit for someone else's work, or just someone reproducing something he found interesting without being careful to record the original source?

There are far more important tests of a man's character than the care he takes with recording information on a blog.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Drewthealexander:
Richard York quotes on his blog, text that has appeared elsewhere on the Internet. But where did Mr York come by this text? Did he lift it wholesale from elsewhere? Did someone send it to him in an email? Did he copy and paste it into a file of interesting quotes without noting the author? Is this really a deliberate attempt by him to gain credit for someone else's work, or just someone reproducing something he found interesting without being careful to record the original source?

There are far more important tests of a man's character than the care he takes with recording information on a blog.

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quote:

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Richard is a renowned author, having written books such as “Authentic Christianity,” “Making your Faith Work,” and his biography “To Catch a Thief.” He is also the Principal of Victory Academy which teaches theology and leadership.

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quote:

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Originally posted by daronmedway:
Many pastors quote from sources like the HBR.

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quote:

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Originally posted by fletcher christian:
But some people do post blog material without any attribution. It happens all the time. I don't like it and I don't approve of it, but I can't get quite as excited about it as you do.

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quote:

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Originally posted by fletcher christian:
But some people do post blog material without any attribution. It happens all the time. I don't like it and I don't approve of it, but I can't get quite as excited about it as you do. I guess there's an element too of me not really caring, because not in a million years would I ever contemplate walking in the door of such a church. I would care if it turned into something that was exploiting vulnerable people, but I'm not sure it's doing that.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

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Originally posted by daronmedway:
Many pastors quote from sources like the HBR.

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How difficult is it for you and drewthealexander to understand what is meant by quote? It's not a quote. It's plagiarism. This person is not posting as some anonymous shipmate (and in the two instances I know of here, there were ramifications within the community and at least one of them made a full apology in the end). This person is posting as a high-profile leader. From those to whom much is entrusted, much shall be demanded.

The thing that really gets me here is that as far as I can see, you two are making special pleading purely because this person is from a similar theological stable to you. If you and others are failing to apply basic standards of ethics simply because somebody is "one of us", it's not much wonder we see a steady succession of charlatans in certain corners of the church.[/b]?

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quote:

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Originally posted by fletcher christian:
SC Kevin, I understand that, but it's someone writing a blog who is clearly more street-wise than university-wise. He may not even be aware he's done anything wrong. A quiet word in his ear about proper attribution might have been an idea.

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quote:

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Richard Taylor... went on to study for a degree in theology... Richard is a bible teacher... Richard is a renowned author... He is also the Principal of Victory Academy which teaches theology and leadership.

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quote:

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Plagarism to the extent of that on the blog would result in serious discipline if discovered in a university context.

Why is the church different? I think our standard must be higher.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Drewthealexander:
Here's a view from a recent visitor. I must say it always intrigues me that when, on these threads, there is any indication that the Gospel is having a tangible impact, it's longstanding Christians who are the first to try and discredit it.

I suppose we could apply the same standards elsewhere in Chdistian history. God could not have been working miraculously in Corinth because of immorality in the church. Peter should never have been given a public platform once he has denied Christ. How could someone like Paul, who fell out with a gentlemen as eirenic as Barnabas ever be trusted as a pastoral leader?

The amount of time and effort for small town churches to maintain the sort of activity we see in Cwmbran is both considerable and commendable. And from Mr Pyman's blog, the motivation for all this is self-sacrificial rather than self-aggrandisement. For whatever reasons, and from whatever distances, people are responding to the challenge of the Gospel. I commend the churches in Cwmbran for their love and dedication. The Gospel is being preached, people are responding, church leaders from far and wide are reflecting deeply on their own witness and the degree to which they have become content with what they have, as opposed to seeking to have an even greater impact on their communities.

I wish them well.

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quote:

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Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Posted by EM:

quote:

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Plagarism to the extent of that on the blog would result in serious discipline if discovered in a university context.

Why is the church different? I think our standard must be higher.

---

I'm not suggesting the church should be any different at all. When in secondary school and if lucky, at university, you are taught how to make proper attribution for quotes and ideas and portions of text....'taught'. If you haven't had the benefit of that, it can be helpful to have someone tell you and explain why. Some people genuinely don't see themselves as doing anything wrong in these situations. They see something they like, something they whole heartedly agree with and they post it on a blog or regurgitate it socially without any attribution - not because they want to appear clever, or pass off others work as their own; but because they agree with it or like it. All I'm saying is that Euty could have sent an email to the lad who makes the blog and asked him to make proper attribution and explain why. Problem solved. Instead, he has called his entire life into question. Seems a bit of a jump to me.

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If he's teaching others, then he should be wholly aware of this: it becomes second nature in that environment.

If used socially, then sure, no problem. But it's not presented in that way, it's on the net - wide open for all to read and presumably to sign up to.

Ok one or two of his comments seem a bit off bea,m - like the one on Steve Chalke and he shouldn't be pilloried for that. It's just his view (FWIW I actually agree with almost all he says about Steve Chalke apart from the possibiloity of him being gay - I don't give that any mileage at all). Yes, he admits to being ouspoken and that's great - but with that comes responsibility. When it hits the fan you have to be able to catch the stuff or back up your words.

It is a big bigger IMHO than a simple mistake. There's too much talking up in church circls, some of it down right lies and we should be keeping our house clean. There's enough good stuff going on without having to add too many stories to support the facts. That is sadly too common as I've found out to my cost.
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Whoops ... I think I've muddled EM and EE up again ...

Although I agree with what each has said here.


 

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Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:
In my charismatic days I went to this Church. The 'outpouring' and the elation it produced was very much like an amphetamine high. I wonder, with this Victory Church - as it was founded by ex addicts - if they have substituted one high for another?

Hopefully this one is less destructive.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Whoops ... I think I've muddled EM and EE up again ...

Although I agree with what each has said here.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

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Originally posted by FreeJack:
Was he the guy who used to be with Renewal Centre in Solihull (crazy side of charismatic) and the Free Methodist Church (normal side of charismatic)?

I can see why he plays well in the valleys. He's a story-teller rather than a factually-based chronicler.

---

I don't know about the Free Methodist Church, but yes he was at Solihull it would appear (I think where David Carr of Old French tongue-speaking fame, who I've mentioned here before, is or was). I wonder what the story behind his trajectory is?

"Story-teller", eh? Do you have any concrete evidence of that, or is it just from his style?

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quote:

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Originally posted by daronmedway:
Secondly, you haven't addressed my point about a certain shipmate, whom I count as a good friend IRL who made a similar mistake on this very ship a few years ago. If you're going to use a measure, fine. But use it consistently.

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quote:

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This person is not posting as some anonymous shipmate (and in the two instances I know of here, there were ramifications within the community and at least one of them made a full apology in the end). This person is posting as a high-profile leader. From those to whom much is entrusted, much shall be demanded.

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quote:

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Originally posted by fletcher christian:
All I'm saying is that Euty could have sent an email to the lad who makes the blog and asked him to make proper attribution and explain why. Problem solved. Instead, he has called his entire life into question. Seems a bit of a jump to me.

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quote:

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My firm conviction is that the proclamation of the Gospel and the authentic work of the Spirit have nothing to lose, and everything to gain, from every effort being made to act with integrity and to be seen to be doing so.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Drewthealexander
I must say it always intrigues me that when, on these threads, there is any indication that the Gospel is having a tangible impact, it's longstanding Christians who are the first to try and discredit it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by fletcher christian
Instead this thread has gone on a bit of crusade to be honest, that jumps from - he's a plagiarist, to he's the scum of the earth and his entire ministry is a deception and therefore the whole outfit is of the devil.

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quote:

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Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:

quote:

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Originally posted by Drewthealexander
I must say it always intrigues me that when, on these threads, there is any indication that the Gospel is having a tangible impact, it's longstanding Christians who are the first to try and discredit it.

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If the Gospel is having a tangible impact, that's all the more reason for those with responsibility to be as above reproach as they can be. That's not so much about never making mistakes but how they deal with them.

quote:

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Originally posted by fletcher christian
Instead this thread has gone on a bit of crusade to be honest, that jumps from - he's a plagiarist, to he's the scum of the earth and his entire ministry is a deception and therefore the whole outfit is of the devil.

---

---

quote:

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Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
It could be that he just misunderstands 'fair use'

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quote:

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and may even ignore any rebuke, because he may be so caught up in the mechanics of his work that he just assumes that such a rebuke is an attack of the devil.

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quote:

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This may be more immaturity and church culture driven, than any deeply sinister motive.

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The fact is, the person who ought to be informed of this copyright violation is the original author of the article that has been plagiarised. He is the victim in this. If there is any genuine righteous indignation, then a message to the original author would be appropriate, I think.

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quote:

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I think that it is possible to be genuinely used of God, and yet be extremely sloppy and slovenly in certain areas

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quote:

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which are technically moral, but which may involve a certain ambiguity (e.g. how far do we take 'fair use'?)

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I wonder how many of us could really stand if every nook and cranny of our lives was subjected to the full glare of every conceivable regulation?

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quote:

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God uses damaged goods. He also uses stubborn damaged goods.

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quote:

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Therefore I don't think the integrity of this whole ministry can really be judged on the basis of examples of plagiarism and the pastor's response to the charge thereof.

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quote:

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it does seem rather strange that he has been so lax in exposing himself to just the kind of criticism we see on this thread.

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quote:

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If the Gospel is having a tangible impact, that's all the more reason for those with responsibility to be as above reproach as they can be. That's not so much about never making mistakes but how they deal with them.

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There are far more important tests of a man's character than the care he takes with recording information on a blog.

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Originally posted by The Rhythm Methodist:
Even while just an associate pastor at Solihull, Taylor was already looking to make a dent in the media. He signed his contract with "Personality Artistes Ltd" - a promotional agency - who's self-description runs like this:

PERSONALITY ARTISTES LTD is a showbusiness to business resource for platinum calibre artistes and world wide theatre tours, all promoted by or in association with PERSONALITY ARTISTES LTD.

As I understand it, they are still pushing him to this day.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by daronmedway:
Furthermore, I think you are less likely to get a hearing for your objections and reservations if you come across like some kind of cyber-stalker than if you exercise charitable discernment in the relation to claims being made for the actual phenomena.

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quote:

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Because even if he is guilty of plagiarism it could still in fact be a revival. Better to look at the thing itself and the direct claims being made for it first, I think

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The problem I have with this is that it gives me the impression that if he were a "Calvinist... Evangelical... not a revivalist...believed that praying over hankies was descriptive not prescriptive, and was the pastor of a poor Anglican church of less that 50 people", it would not matter to you that he engaged in plagiarism - which to me is far more serious. The value of praying over hankies is a matter of personal conviction, the matter of plagiarism is one of personal integrity.

We can discuss the validity of a revival until the eschaton (if we believe in the latter...), and some people are experts at producing walls of pseudo-spiritual text to obfuscate any theological objections we may have. It seems to me to be far more subjective and compelling to examine some incontrovertible evidence that does not require any particular set of beliefs to agree on.

[ETA the start of the thread is back now. 13 minutes elapsed between my first and second posts]

[ 11. May 2013, 16:32: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
 

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Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
And that should have of course read "objective and compelling..."
 

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Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I think we make a category mistake if we think of revival as some kind of pure, unsullied and somehow completely sovereign act of Almighty God which cannot be criticised or evaluated in any way.

I well remember attending an academic conference on revival that managed to upset both Calvinists and charismatics - so it must have been doing something right - because it applied sociological data - very convincingly in my view.

It did so without in anyway undermining or calling into question the divine elements or suggesting that God wasn't really at work etc etc. But that still wasn't good enough for some people raised on a diet of out-of-context revivalist hagiographies and wishful thinking.

Much of the interest in the Welsh Revival of 1904/05 came from the way it was reported - it featured quite prominently in the newspapers of the time - whether the Times over in London and even the Yorkshire Post. And there was a lot of debate for and against.

For my part, I wouldn't be at all surprised if there are people who have been and are being genuinely impacted/influenced for good by all of this ... yet at the same time I have grave reservations about the kind of stable from which it comes. That doesn't mean it's all bad, of course, but I suspect that a lot of faithful, stable ministers and clergy are going to have a lot of messy clearing up today once the bandwagon moves on.

There was certainly 'blessing' in the Toronto Blessing, but it was a mixed blessing at best and the results were very difficult to quantify one way or another. Looking back, I think much of it was simply a form of autosuggestion and self-hypnosis ... there certainly wasn't that much impact on people who weren't already involved with the churches which took part.

Watchman Nee described a similar period of apparent advance in 1930s Shanghai, where, after a season of great excitement and revival-type phenomena he concluded that not a great deal had been gained - if anything, much had been lost.

I'd like to be able to think more positively and differently in this instance, but I doubt if the misgivings expressed here are wide of the mark.
 

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Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
There was certainly 'blessing' in the Toronto Blessing, but it was a mixed blessing at best... [T]here certainly wasn't that much impact on people who weren't already involved with the churches which took part.

Watchman Nee described a similar period of apparent advance in 1930s Shanghai, where, after a season of great excitement and revival-type phenomena he concluded that not a great deal had been gained - if anything, much had been lost.

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quote:

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I am sending this to all of you that I know have been praying for Wales and have also prayed that God would pour out His Spirit in Revival.

The Victory Church here in Cwmbran has been doing a wonderful job of being faithful to the Lord, for praying for wisdom for seeing what God is doing and wants them to do and also for stepping into His will – and stepping out in great faith. This they have done.

Just to say we believe the Victory Church, is a ‘Birthing Church’ they are truly listening to God – being carried along by the wave of His Spirit...

The Church is aimed at helping the younger ones to leave addiction and alcohol and prison behind; they are Alongsider’ s with great practical help - and all the people who have been waiting to see this sort of thing break out in their own Churches have gone to help.

God is good. Richard the Pastor has written his own testimony in a book called To Catch a Thief – well worth a read.

One of the things Pip and I are involved with is bringing a solid foundation of FICM Discipleship into Wales. Ecumenically we are enabling Church planting and for Whole churches to be Loved and Discipled with these Resources...

TheLeaders have been through the fiery furnace to prepare them for this time; are we willing to do likewise to see God moving mightily - are we going to continue in the same old way or are we also going to invite THE HOLY SPIRIT to come among us.

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quote:

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Originally posted by geroff:
I haven't read the blog because I find that many Pastor's blogs are just retweets

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quote:

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all the people who have been waiting to see this sort of thing break out in their own Churches have gone to help

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quote:

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are we willing to do likewise to see God moving mightily - are we going to continue in the same old way or are we also going to invite THE HOLY SPIRIT to come among us

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quote:

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Originally posted by Darllenwr:
Ladies and Gentlemen, are we being too free with our speculations?

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quote:

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Rev per Minute, you don't say what conclusions you draw from that e-mail, but it does little to reassure me.

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quote:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Apart from the (alleged) plagiarism

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quote:

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Originally posted by Darllenwr:
Saying which, one cannot discount the possibility that this is a genuine work of God, in which case some amongst us may be guilty of casting aspersions on God Himself - generally thought to be unhealthy.

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I've read your post very carefully and I think it exonerates me... for now at least

To your sobering point above, yes that needs to be borne in mind, but it should not end up granting a free pass to unscrupulous leaders.

I would prefer to talk in terms of "the possibility of God being genuinely at work" in the midst of it all (and indeed, readers will note that's still my position about the Toronto Blessing, rather in spite of myself! - it's also my view, stated on these boards before, of Lourdes) rather than of a "genuine work of God" because the latter may wrongly imply a flawlessness that will simply never be there.

My point is that a desire for genuineness should lead to a willingness to work on the flaws. I suppose we can differ about what constitutes a major flaw but I stand by my argument that in view of Taylor's claimed credentials and responsibility, plagiarism is a gaping one. Let's hope he or they address it appropriately.

Concrete jungle eh? Well, they went out into the desert to see John the Baptist...
 

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Posted by daronmedway (# 3012) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

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Originally posted by daronmedway:
Furthermore, I think you are less likely to get a hearing for your objections and reservations if you come across like some kind of cyber-stalker than if you exercise charitable discernment in the relation to claims being made for the actual phenomena.

---

For some reason I can't get back to the beginning of this thread right now (I hope this is a temporary blip), but as and when I can I think you'll see that the time between my first post and the one posting news of the plagiarism is a matter of minutes. I hardly think you can describe that as "cyberstalking". I didn't go out to "dig dirt", I set out to follow my own advice that it needed to be looked into. I looked around for some more info, found his blog, recognised what looked like plagiarism and the rest is board history (if the first page hasn't been wiped forever...).

quote:

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Because even if he is guilty of plagiarism it could still in fact be a revival. Better to look at the thing itself and the direct claims being made for it first, I think

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The problem I have with this is that it gives me the impression that if he were a "Calvinist... Evangelical... not a revivalist...believed that praying over hankies was descriptive not prescriptive, and was the pastor of a poor Anglican church of less that 50 people", it would not matter to you that he engaged in plagiarism - which to me is far more serious.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Apart from the (alleged) plagiarism

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<checks definitions of "plagiarism" and "alleged">

Are you saying that my findings don't constitute proof (to a standard of "weight of evidence")? If so, why? If not, why have you added the word "alleged"?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

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Originally posted by The Rhythm Methodist:

PERSONALITY ARTISTES LTD is a showbusiness to business resource for platinum calibre artistes and world wide theatre tours, all promoted by or in association with PERSONALITY ARTISTES LTD.

As I understand it, they are still pushing him to this day.

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Thanks for those insights. Can you provide any backup for his links to the agency and whether they are ongoing?

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quote:

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Originally posted by daronmedway:
I just don't accept that an act of plagarism in one instance provides incontrovertible evidence of charlatanism in another.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
But, surely none of us doubt that God is as present there as God is with us at our keyboards?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
The funny thing about God is that in the midst of the charlatans, entertainment succubus and the needy of various types getting together for a big shin dig, God still works in some individuals.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jenn.:
If this is a revival, then I'd have thought the people of cwmbran would be moving outward in mission, not drawing all to themselves...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The proof of the pudding is in the eating and whether that person shows stickability and continues to profess Christ, grow in grace and so on and so forth. These things take time to establish.

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quote:

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I think in some ways we are cursed by history. We look back, often through rose-tinted glasses, at past revivals and think we can spot when one is happening again. We think they are a fast track to something better when in fact they usally create as much havoc as anything else in the long run. And of course with God TV and the like a veritable industry has now grown up with lucrative markets in books, CDs and so on. I dare to think that (most) of those involved are not simply cynically exploiting this for gain, but I do think these kinds of thing create a certain pressure to hype the event.

More and more my own tendency is to look for christian experience well out of the spotlight.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eutychus

quote:

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Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical
and may even ignore any rebuke, because he may be so caught up in the mechanics of his work that he just assumes that such a rebuke is an attack of the devil.

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You say that like it excuses him.

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quote:

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However, I contend that there are a number of factors - apart from any theological ones - that count as warning signs. The plagiarism is one - at least, pending a response now that someone in the church has been made aware of it. Taylor's apprent ongoing contract with a promotional agency, which seems rather at odds with his ministry functions and responsibilities, is another.

If he or the trustees of the church don't see fit to address that kind of concern, I think the structure of this "revival" is fundamentally unsound.

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quote:

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I'm a bit alarmed by the pastor's biography. 'Damascus road' turnarounds of that nature aren't impossible, but I think the claims call for some close scrutiny.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think you might be onto something EE. I also think that we're all damaged in some way - Richard Taylor in one way, the rest of us in others. But we're all damaged goods.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Qoheleth.:

quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I think you might be onto something EE. I also think that we're all damaged in some way - Richard Taylor in one way, the rest of us in others. But we're all damaged goods.

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Gamy, ISTM that you make an excellent case for the scriptural ministry of episkope (tr. oversight), whether that be exercised hierarchically or collegially in any particular tradition.

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quote:

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Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
The reason I am saying this, is not to make up excuses for him, but to try to understand his psychology, and why, because of his determination to fight against his past, he may be quick to dismiss certain types of valid criticism.

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quote:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
What fascinates me is the rapid rate of secularisation in Wales compared to England. From what I've read, dechurched people are especially numerous in Wales, whereas in England a higher number would be unchurched. In other words, English families would have given up on churchgoing several generations sooner than the Welsh ones.

In the early noughties I studied in Swansea and worked there briefly (as did my younger brother, except that he's still there) and I was surprised at how many abandoned churches there were near the city centre. In the West Midlands they'd have been knocked down or converted ages ago. Maybe this is now beginning to happen.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gamaliel:
But Welsh nonconformity was a victim of its own success. In the end it stifled itself.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eutychus:
I have learned a great expression in counselling training. It doesn't sound so good in English, but it is the practice of "canonising pathology". Which is to say that christians can have a tendency to mistake mental imbalance for spirituality. [snip]

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Yes!

K.

[ 13. May 2013, 08:18: Message edited by: Komensky ]
 

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Posted by wishandaprayer (# 17673) on :
 
I am a long time lurker and recent signer-upper on this board. First post. Hello all!

I wanted to start a discussion here on this a couple of weeks back when I heard about a local church's leaders going over en masse to this event. I have been in the charismatic movement, practically since birth, but recently rationalism seems to have been taking me over (or maybe I'm "backsliding"). It's good to see it being discussed and I have some questions to add into the mix. I have actually been to an event that invited Richard Taylor some years ago, and don't remember too much of that event. I don't think it was well attended enough for God to "show up"

The catalyst for this "revival" seems to be a particular "miracle" where a man who was known to have been wheelchair bound for 10 years was healed during an apparently routine prayer meeting. I have also heard reports of "numerous medically verified [(by who?)] healings".

Anyway, the questions are:

1) if this man, who must have been known by quite a few people in the local area, was indeed healed so dramatically why is there no dent in the local news (my Google-fu is pretty good, and I can't find a thing)?

2) if there was indeed a healing like that (and the others) does this mean, to you, that God is moving there in a different way?

Finally I appreciate all the other discussion here and take the plagiarism etc. very seriously. Sadly it doesn't surprise me in the slightest, and I have little hope Eutychus will ever hear back, but maybe this time I will be wrong.

Thank you all.
 

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Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
Hello and Welcome, Wishandaprayer!

quote:

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Originally posted by Jenn.:
I try very hard not to be automatically skeptical about this sort of thing, but I can't help wondering about the theology of people chasing the holy spirit around the country rather than seeking God in the place he has put them? Also fairly confused by the idea of 'carrying the blessing' back home? I can understand wanting to experience such things, I think, but it just seems a bit odd.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Matt Black:
Hello and Welcome, Wishandaprayer!

quote:

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Originally posted by Jenn.:
I try very hard not to be automatically skeptical about this sort of thing, but I can't help wondering about the theology of people chasing the holy spirit around the country rather than seeking God in the place he has put them? Also fairly confused by the idea of 'carrying the blessing' back home? I can understand wanting to experience such things, I think, but it just seems a bit odd.

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For the same reason I suppose that Catholics visit Lourdes, Fatima and Medjugorje rather than seeking her in the place God has put them, and carrying vials of Holy Water back from those places. Would you say that that is odd too?

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quote:

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Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
William Carey ("the father of modern missions") who was quite prepared to abandon his pregnant wife (with their sixth child) to go off to India for two years. I would like to suggest that using the "will of God" and the "urgency of world mission" to justify effectively abusing your own pregnant wife (and 'abuse' is the correct word to describe abandonment - especially abandonment of a highly vulnerable, confused and understandably distressed woman

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quote:

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Originally posted by Matt Black:
Whilst subscribing to much of what you've just said, particularly the anti-intellectual bent of much of the more charismatic end of the evangelical spectrum, can I ask you to unpack a bit more about Rome's view of the aforementioned pilgrimage sites and how Catholic practice/ praxis (as distinct from theory/theology differs significantly from the whole Toronto-Pensacola-Brownsville etc pilgrimage phenomena?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Komensky:
I can't say much more about this now (though maybe others might help?) but I think the the RC Church is pretty strict and cautious about what it calls 'miraculous' at Lourdes.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Matt Black:
That's kind of what I'm getting at: no-one so far has dissed the Catholic (or indeed Orthodox) practice of pilgrimage to what they consider to be holy places to (presumably) receive some kind of special blessing that they wouldn't get by staying at home; no-one has suggested that they could just as well meet with God where they are rather than travel to such special places.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Matt Black:
That's kind of what I'm getting at: no-one so far has dissed the Catholic (or indeed Orthodox) practice of pilgrimage to what they consider to be holy places to (presumably) receive some kind of special blessing that they wouldn't get by staying at home; no-one has suggested that they could just as well meet with God where they are rather than travel to such special places.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Hawk

quote:

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Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical
William Carey ("the father of modern missions") who was quite prepared to abandon his pregnant wife (with their sixth child) to go off to India for two years. I would like to suggest that using the "will of God" and the "urgency of world mission" to justify effectively abusing your own pregnant wife (and 'abuse' is the correct word to describe abandonment - especially abandonment of a highly vulnerable, confused and understandably distressed woman

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/Tangent/ When was this? Wikipedia has no record of this 'abandoment'. Dorothy came to India with him in 1793, and lived with him in his mission. She had a breakdown while in India due to the death of their child Peter. But against the urgings of his friends Carey refused to abandon her to an asylum for fear of the treatment she'd receive so took care of her at home until her death.

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quote:

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Toward the end of the six weeks, the captain received an anonymous note signed 'Verax'. The note warned the captain that he had on board someone who should not be allowed to go on to India. The captain assumed the note was alluding to John Thomas, and so he asked both Thomas and Carey to disembark. Perhaps Thomas' reputation had preceded him. [my note: apparently he had outstanding debts, from which he appeared to be running away] Carey took Felix off the ship with him, of course.

---

quote:

---

Thomas was persuasive. Just how did he convince Dorothy to change her mind? His own account seems to suggest that he convinced her to go using fear. The essence of Dorothy's decision to go may have been that to stay was too frightening. She felt she had to go with her husband. Her change of mind does not seem to have been based on a reconsideration of her original objections to going, whatever they may have been.

---

quote:

---

Supporters of the mission were happy. Thomas was pleased. Carey was excited. How did Dorothy feel? We wish we knew.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Hawk -

By the way, the Wikipedia account of Dorothy Carey's agreement to go to India is deeply misleading.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jenn.:
[qb] The pastors blog appears to have been removed...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hawk
So is James Beck's opinion of it. The facts are bare but clear. Carey didn't abandon her. Period. He respected her wishes not to make the voyage while pregnant. But then, after she gave birth, she travelled with him on the voyage. All of Becks' attacks on Carey's character from his safe distance of the centuries are mere speculation from silence.

---

quote:

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We now set off for Mr. Ryland, of Northampton, to ask for money, and on our way thither I found Mr. Carey's hope of his wife all gone. I proposed to go back once more; but he overruled it, saying it was of no use. At last I said, "I will go back." "Well, do as you think proper," said he, "but I think we are losing time." I went back, and told Mrs. Carey her going out with us was a matter of much importance, I could not leave her so - her family would be dispersed and divided for ever - she would repent of it as long as she lived. As she tells me since, this last saying, frequently repeated, had such an effect on her, that she was afraid to stay at home; and afterwards, in a few minutes, determined to go, trusting in the Lord: but this should be on condition of her sister going with her. This was agreed to. We now set off for Northampton like two different men; our steps so much quicker, our hearts so much lighter.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
In my charismatic days I went to this Church. The 'outpouring' and the elation it produced was very much like an amphetamine high. I wonder, with this Victory Church - as it was founded by ex addicts - if they have substituted one high for another?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
I have learned a great expression in counselling training. It doesn't sound so good in English, but it is the practice of "canonising pathology". Which is to say that christians can have a tendency to mistake mental imbalance for spirituality.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Komensky:
Eutychus has hit the nail on the head with 'canonised pathology'. There's more too it than that, though. Evangelical Christian culture simply won't listen to reason and science. No matter how often these sorts of things are dubunked, they carry on deceiving themselves and deceiving others. Revival is just one more neurotic obsession of charismania that they will promote and believe in through any means necessary. Increasingly, charismania is building an anti-science platform. I think this may be connected to the growing influence of Pentecostalism in the UK. Pentecostalism is essentially dualist and does not really recognise the natural world and so has a tendency to ascribe things to God or Satan. As science is seen to bring reason and skepticism to the table, it becomes part of Satan's realm.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
but revival is about so much more than shaking, falling over, speaking in tongues and so on

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Komensky:
Here is a summary of so much evangelical sermon content [I'm paraphrasing]: "revival, revival, revival, revival, revival, revival, revival, revival, revival, revival, revival, revival, revival, revival, revival, revival--it didn't happen. There must be some spiritual blockage. You lack faith".

K.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Komensky:
Thanks for that, Sidefall. You are absolutely right that I was painting with a rather wide brush--it's clear that I don't fully understand all the nuances to which you allude.

---

quote:

---

To confuse matters more, I do observe considerable influences from Pentecostal churches (perhaps even Oneness Pentecostals) in evangelical circles of the C of E.

---

quote:

---

The influences of movements like Vineyard are also apparent, hence the popularity of the Signs and Wimbers movement at places like HTB, where I was once a member.

---

quote:

---

Perhaps this accounts for at least some of the confusion around the edges of such denominations? That it, something that says 'C of E' of the tin, may contain nuts.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sidefall:
Conversely, some conservative evangelicals do reject science and reason when it comes to creation. Young-Earth Creationism and a literal interpretation of Genesis 1-3 are required beliefs in some circles. I see this primarily as a result of fundamentalist influences, possibly a continued reaction against liberal theology.

I think charismatics/pentecostals are generally the other way round. Creationism is probably a minority view. Yes, there are some pentecostals who are creationist, particularly the older generation, possibly reflecting the working-class origins of the movement. But I reckon these are far outnumbered by charismatics who do accept science and reason. Could you imagine, for example, New Wine or Spring Harvest featuring a speaker from Answers in Genesis?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:

quote:

---

Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
but revival is about so much more than shaking, falling over, speaking in tongues and so on

---

This is true. These days, I can do all that on three gins.

---

As many as that?
 

---

Posted by sidefall (# 16394) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by chris stiles:
That's because I think you are comparing two different things (class wise). I don't think you'd see someone from AiG speak at New Word Alive either (which is the best con-evo parallel to New Wine/Spring Harvest).

The con-evos who are likely to have someone from AiG speak are probably similar demographic wise to the Elim churches in the same towns (who would also have someone from the AiG in to speak).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sidefall:
Agreed, however I also had the international scene in mind. In America, for example, people like Albert Mohler are prominent YECs. I would guess that many other people associated with The Gospel Coalition (large USA conservative evangelical umbrella organisation) are also YEC. I would say that these are theologically and demographically similar to, for example, the New Word Alive constituency that you mentioned.

[I regard the situation in the USA as resulting from a far greater fundamentalist influence than we ever had in the UK]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sidefall:
So I would say there is a degree of cognitive dissonance amongst some conservative evangelicals. They are happy to be rational and scientific when it comes to rejecting claims of miracles, but take the opposite approach when it comes to the science of the origins of the universe.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:

quote:

---

Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
but revival is about so much more than shaking, falling over, speaking in tongues and so on

---

This is true. These days, I can do all that on three gins.

---

As many as that?

---

Darn, you're right. At my age, it only takes one...
 

---

Posted by jayhawk (# 5737) on :
 
Eutychus may be interested to know that on the Victory Church website, under News/Campus Blog, there is another blog on which some of the same content can be found as on the pastor's blog which was taken down, again unattributed.
 

---

Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:

quote:

---

Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
but revival is about so much more than shaking, falling over, speaking in tongues and so on

---

This is true. These days, I can do all that on three gins.

---

As many as that?

---

Darn, you're right. At my age, it only takes one...

---

Some of us wouldn't know, of course. Gin is so High Church, don't you know?

[ 14. May 2013, 16:43: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
 

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Posted by EtymologicalEvangelical (# 15091) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by sidefall
So I would say there is a degree of cognitive dissonance amongst some conservative evangelicals. They are happy to be rational and scientific when it comes to rejecting claims of miracles, but take the opposite approach when it comes to the science of the origins of the universe.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by jayhawk:
Eutychus may be interested to know that on the Victory Church website, under News/Campus Blog, there is another blog on which some of the same content can be found as on the pastor's blog which was taken down, again unattributed.

---

Dropping in quickly as someone gave me a heads-up about this post. I'm not in a position to do much checking now. Can you post a link to where the material is still up?

I have screenshots of the material before it was taken down. Please take ones of this post as I won't be in a position to do so for a few days.

So far, I've not had any reply from the church.

This suggests they got my message, but so far doesn't tell us much about precisely how it was dealt with. On the face of it it's not encouraging.
 

---

Posted by The Midge (# 2398) on :
 
I'm amazed a the demonstration of Physcic powers and mindreading on this thread especially on what evangelicals think.

I happened upon this link to a survey of USA pators views of science via Internet Monk which might shed a bit more light on church leaders thinking on the matter.
 

---

Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Midge:
I'm amazed a the demonstration of Physcic powers and mindreading on this thread especially on what evangelicals think.

---

quote:

---

I happened upon this link to a survey of USA pators views of science via Internet Monk which might shed a bit more light on church leaders thinking on the matter.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Komensky:
One great way to test the claims coming from Wales is to ask a few volunteers with pre-existing medical conditions which would otherwise not heal on their own, to get a full medical exam and then proceed straight to mega-victory-super-dynamo church and get healed! Then, finally, we might have as many as one verified healing after so many decades of false claims.

Think it will happen?

---

quote:

---

'You shall not put the Lord your God to the test.’ Luke 4:12

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Komensky:
Midge, that was the easiest script I ever wrote. If that is how you wish to apply your Bible bomb, then why is there any need for discernment? If someone claims it's from God, it's from God. If someone believes they were healed, they were healed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Midge:
IMHO asking God to heal to prove 'the truth' is not suitable behaviour for a mature disciple. The Christian scriptures suggest that kind of behaviour is wrong and would receive a rebuke from Christ.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Midge:
IMHO asking God to heal to prove 'the truth' is not suitable behaviour for a mature disciple. The Christian scriptures suggest that kind of behaviour is wrong and would receive a rebuke from Christ.

---

I do agree with this point, but we believers in the miraculous have to acknowledge that it sets up a rather nicely impervious worldview: 'Ah, we can never test for evidence of healing because God won't submit to our testings. So we shouldn't expect medical verification.'

We can also use this argument to explain why there are far more reports of miraculous healings in areas of the developing world where medical services are less comprehensive...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Midge:
IMHO asking God to heal to prove 'the truth' is not suitable behaviour for a mature disciple. The Christian scriptures suggest that kind of behaviour is wrong and would receive a rebuke from Christ.

---

I do agree with this point, but we believers in the miraculous have to acknowledge that it sets up a rather nicely impervious worldview: 'Ah, we can never test for evidence of healing because God won't submit to our testings. So we shouldn't expect medical verification.'

We can also use this argument to explain why there are far more reports of miraculous healings in areas of the developing world where medical services are less comprehensive...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Midge:
IMHO asking God to heal to prove 'the truth' is not suitable behaviour for a mature disciple. The Christian scriptures suggest that kind of behaviour is wrong and would receive a rebuke from Christ.

---

quote:

---

I do agree with this point, but we believers in the miraculous have to acknowledge that it sets up a rather nicely impervious worldview: 'Ah, we can never test for evidence of healing because God won't submit to our testings. So we shouldn't expect medical verification.'

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

---

Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
We can also use this argument [that God won't submit to our testings] to explain why there are far more reports of miraculous healings in areas of the developing world where medical services are less comprehensive...

---

I can explain that. These places are further away and the reports pass through more people before getting here and are therefore more open to being exaggerated, embroidered and just plain invented.

Sorry. Just my suspicions.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Midge:
OTOH one who has received a true healing will probably have records of their condition at their local hospital/ GPs and (subject to patient confidentiality) it should be possible to test those .

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

---

Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
We can also use this argument [that God won't submit to our testings] to explain why there are far more reports of miraculous healings in areas of the developing world where medical services are less comprehensive...

---

I can explain that. These places are further away and the reports pass through more people before getting here and are therefore more open to being exaggerated, embroidered and just plain invented.

Sorry. Just my suspicions.

---

Sure, and I totally understand your suspicions. However, I expect I'm not alone in having heard stories from people we trust of apparently remarkable healings. One that springs to my mind comes from a trip to India during which one of my church leaders saw a massive growth on someone's leg just disappear before his eyes. He might have exaggerated or imagined it, but knowing him as I do, I doubt it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Midge:
OTOH one who has received a true healing will probably have records of their condition at their local hospital/ GPs and (subject to patient confidentiality) it should be possible to test those .

---

Yeah, you're right. But even then, some conditions do just go into remission for no apparent reason. Or test results get mixed up / misread. Those who firmly don't believe in the miraculous can put forward reasonable explanations for strange occurrences, just like those of us who do believe.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
The question is one of comparing the likelihood of two very unlikely events. And given the rarity of spontaneously disappearing growths, unlikely as your friend being mistaken, or hoodwinked, or exaggerating is, it still looks rather more likely than the growth spontaneously disappearing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
The question is one of comparing the likelihood of two very unlikely events. And given the rarity of spontaneously disappearing growths, unlikely as your friend being mistaken, or hoodwinked, or exaggerating is, it still looks rather more likely than the growth spontaneously disappearing.

---

Fine, I quite understand how you've come to that conclusion. But just try to imagine how you'd react to someone you greatly trust saying they'd been standing directly in front of a man with a massive growth on their leg, and the growth had simply gone as he and some other people prayed with the man.

That's the story as it was relayed to me. I don't tell the story in order to convince you, rather to try and explain the origin of my own belief that miraculous healings do sometimes happen.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Komensky:
I wanted to get back to Midge's Bible grenade: Midge assumes that if any claims anything in God's name, it cannot be tested. There are other Bible grenades that could be just as easily lobbed, that urge one to test God. Your Chrisitan Culture (CC) teaches you to believe whatever you are told.

A few spring to mind:

Thessalonians

Ye Olde Malachi

Or this one from John.

Or hey, why not Romans? .

This is where the Bible Bomb game gets you.


K.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
But of course that's not the position I'm in. I'm in the position of someone I've never met on an internet web forum telling me that someone they trust etc.

---

Quite so.
 

---

Posted by Komensky (# 8675) on :
 
Midge, the suggestion (at least mine) was that the claim of healing could be put to the test. Otherwise, who knows what's going on? That's when you lobbed a Bible grenade.

Aren't you just the tiniest bit curious as to why, with the millions of claims of healing done by Christian healers, there isn't a single verified example?
 

---

Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Komensky:
Midge, the suggestion (at least mine) was that the claim of healing could be put to the test. Otherwise, who knows what's going on? That's when you lobbed a Bible grenade.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
But just try to imagine how you'd react to someone you greatly trust saying they'd been standing directly in front of a man with a massive growth on their leg, and the growth had simply gone as he and some other people prayed with the man.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Komensky:
Midge, the suggestion (at least mine) was that the claim of healing could be put to the test. Otherwise, who knows what's going on? That's when you lobbed a Bible grenade.

Aren't you just the tiniest bit curious as to why, with the millions of claims of healing done by Christian healers, there isn't a single verified example?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:

Not only was my LAD completely occluded, but I did not even suffer a heart attack and no damage to the heart was discovered. I asked my GP about this, and she just came out with a vague explanation that "somehow your heart managed to work round it".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin PC......
She does.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by chris stiles:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Komensky:
Midge, the suggestion (at least mine) was that the claim of healing could be put to the test. Otherwise, who knows what's going on? That's when you lobbed a Bible grenade.

---

Whilst largely on your side, I think there is a difference between attempting to verify a healing post the actual event, versus taking a bunch of people with medical complaints to a healing service in the expectation that they get prayed for.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:

Not only was my LAD completely occluded, but I did not even suffer a heart attack and no damage to the heart was discovered. I asked my GP about this, and she just came out with a vague explanation that "somehow your heart managed to work round it".

---

Well, your heart did! Whether that was with God's intervention or not is simply down to what you believe.

I can't believe in a God who intervenes - because God doesn't intervene in so many cases where, if she could/does then she would.

Such picking and choosing would be capricious in the extreme.

So I have to believe in a God who never intervenes or no God at all - I can't even begin to think that there is a mean and cruel God out there who would save EE but not my friend's baby.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
On the subject of miraculous healing, I am concerned about the motives of those who demand 'proof'. They may be acting with integrity, and would accept the truth of a miraculous healing on the basis of what is generally accepted to be a reasonable level of evidence. But they may not. Only they really know the answer to that question.

The idea that the claim of supernatural intervention will only be accepted - or even considered - when all conceivable naturalistic explanations have been comprehensively exhausted, is quite illogical.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Komensky:

quote:

---

Originally posted by chris stiles:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Komensky:
Midge, the suggestion (at least mine) was that the claim of healing could be put to the test. Otherwise, who knows what's going on? That's when you lobbed a Bible grenade.

---

Whilst largely on your side, I think there is a difference between attempting to verify a healing post the actual event, versus taking a bunch of people with medical complaints to a healing service in the expectation that they get prayed for.

---

Was I that clumsy in my writing? I certainly didn't intend that understanding.

---

... said the writer of Scripture to the revisionist.
 

---

Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
I can't believe in a God who intervenes - because God doesn't intervene in so many cases where, if she could/does then she would.

Such picking and choosing would be capricious in the extreme.

So I have to believe in a God who never intervenes or no God at all - I can't even begin to think that there is a mean and cruel God out there who would save EE but not my friend's baby.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Komensky:
The Warfare view sounds like, to quote Alan Partridge, 'barmy old cack'.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by South Coast Kevin
But what if there was another explanation? Sorry to bring up another hobby horse of mine but it does seem relevant: the 'warfare worldview' which I think makes more sense of why some people are healed and others are not.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:

But what if there was another explanation? Sorry to bring up another hobby horse of mine but it does seem relevant: the 'warfare worldview' which I think makes more sense of why some people are healed and others are not.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
On the subject of miraculous healing, I am concerned about the motives of those who demand 'proof'.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Komensky:
What do you make of the testimonies of people who claim alien abduction? They are often very detailed and reveal traumatic experiences for those who tell them. In such cases it seems easier to separate the 'realness' of some kind of psychotic experience and its effects from the falseness of the alleged events such testimonies claim to relay.

In both cases, they have eager (and frequently primed) audiences attentively soaking up the stories. Over retellings, the stories grow and become exaggerated. I was in involved in a big charismatic C of E church in central London and I can assure that this was not an unusual occurrence. In one case, the person was removed from the celebrity testimony tours that charismatics love so much, but only after it became clear that pretty much everything he said in his later testimonies was a lie. This was a troubled person who really needed physiological help. He went from a homeless drug-addict to someone whom posh people gathered in their thousands to hear and he, like the rest of us, just wanted to be loved. These sorts of things are endemic in charismatic culture (you *have* to have testimonies!) and they are so often misleading and destructive. Nevertheless, you can bet your bottom dollar that they will continue to do them because it is ingrained in modern charismatic culture and gets bums on seat and gets people whooping! They love that!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by chris stiles:

quote:

---

Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
On the subject of miraculous healing, I am concerned about the motives of those who demand 'proof'. They may be acting with integrity, and would accept the truth of a miraculous healing on the basis of what is generally accepted to be a reasonable level of evidence. But they may not. Only they really know the answer to that question.

The idea that the claim of supernatural intervention will only be accepted - or even considered - when all conceivable naturalistic explanations have been comprehensively exhausted, is quite illogical.

---

No .. I don't think that is what everyone here is demanding.

Not all conditions are subject to spontaneous remission/improvement of some kind, and some improvements in conditions that are subject to spontaneous remission can be miraculous. OTOH there's a problem if the *only* miracles that ever take place are for conditions that are subject to spontaneous remission.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mudfrog:
...The pain simply left her, immediately, without any contradiction.
This young woman who was in so much agony she had to swivel her hips in order to walk was now dancing with me among the tables at an FGB dinner.... and she has never had a recurrence of that arthritis in her hips.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mudfrog:
...The pain simply left her, immediately, without any contradiction.
This young woman who was in so much agony she had to swivel her hips in order to walk was now dancing with me among the tables at an FGB dinner.... and she has never had a recurrence of that arthritis in her hips.

---

Thanks for sharing your wife's experience, Mudfrog! I'll leap in before anyone else, but is there medical evidence that your wife's recovery was thoroughly unexpected? A note to the effect of 'unexplained remission' on her medical records?

I'm really sorry to throw in questions and doubts but, as has been noted above, plenty of medical conditions do occasionally just get better. So without the evidence of a written professional medical opinion, sceptical people probably won't consider the most likely explanation for your wife's recovery to be a miraculous one. Even with medical testimony, there may well be plenty of scepticism.

---

quote:

---

"When I pray coincidences happen. When I don't, they don't" Sir William Temple

---

What I will not say is that God must not have been involved, even if this was an unexplained coincidence, an unexplained remission.

In all things, to him be the glory!

[ 18. May 2013, 17:29: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
 

---

Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 
Well hello, Polly

quote:

---

Originally posted by Polly:
There seems to be the usual either/or debate going on within this thread.

---

quote:

---

I long for God to move powerfully by his Spirit in my nation where any people seek Jesus and are transformed where Shalom is demonstrated in all spheres of life.

---

quote:

---

The stories from Wales ( and the Pastor there has been praching at my parents church in Mid Sussex this week)

---

quote:

---

given the benefit of doubt until we have evidence to state otherwise.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mudfrog:
A further reply to the answer I gave the honourable gentleman a moment ago: I haven't analysed what happened that night and I suppose there are indeed many of the 'Sadducean persuasion' who will question whether this did happen or 'by what (medical) authority' this healing can be counted as genuine.

My wife's testimony was 'I don't know ...but once I had arthritis and now I dance!"

---

And that's great. I'm genuinely pleased for you, Mudfrog, and for your wife too. Don't take me for a sceptic, let alone a cynic; I do believe God heals miraculously today as he is documented as doing in Biblical times. I should also thank you for the gracious reply.

As for Cwmbran, once again I agree with Eutychus. I find it very troubling that they seem to have removed the plagiarised blog posts without any comment, indeed (it seems) seeking to cover their tracks instead of coming clean. That is fundamentally not fully honest, IMO.
 

---

Posted by Taliesin (# 14017) on :
 
I heard about this today - my friend attends the mid-sussex church that was preached at, and I was feeling excited at the thought of a sweep of energy...

oh well.
 

---

Posted by Avila (# 15541) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Polly:
The stories from Wales ( and the Pastor there has been praching at my parents church in Mid Sussex this week) should be given the benefit of doubt until we have evidence to state otherwise. To scoff at reports just because strikes me as something Jesus would strongly rebuke!

However I experienced constant talk about 'revival' in the charismatic church I grew up in and spent 20 years in during the 90's. There was lots of good stuff then but I reflect upon this time and the continuous emmotional focus and driving was so tiresome. It was so intense and no opportuniity to stand back, take a breath and reflect, time to be still.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Avila:

I want people to be hungry and looking for where God is moving on their own doorsteps and be ready to get hands on in those places, and find God in the messiness of lives rather than the neat box of church services, whatever the style.

---

quote:

---

What, in your view, are the "either" and "or" positions?

---

quote:

---

quote:
Polly Posted:
I long for God to move powerfully by his Spirit in my nation where any people seek Jesus and are transformed where Shalom is demonstrated in all spheres of life.

-------------------
Eutychus posted:
Amen. But I think that this longing can in many cases override people's critical faculties and let wolves and opportunists have a field day.

---

quote:

---

That's how I went on to find out that at least two entries on Taylor's blog were plagiarised, i.e. material not written by Taylor being passed off as his own.

In normal circumstances that would be good enough, but these are not normal circumstances. Firstly, because extraordinary claims are being made, and secondly, because there is hard evidence that Taylor is a plagiairst, so the blog which others were looking at to form their opinion of him was deceitful.

---

quote:

---

Eutychus posted: I therefore think that the time for him being
quote:
............................................
Polly Posted:
"given the benefit of doubt until we have evidence to state otherwise."
.............................................
is over.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Avila:
It is not that you can't take a trip to someone else, even Wales! Just that we don't need to, and I don't take well to the assumption we do which a lot of the hype works on - Get on planes, trains whatever just get here etc

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quote:

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Originally posted by Polly:
The absoluteness and polarisation of each viewpoint. For example ....healings and miracles don't happen today or the pursuit of seeing and wanting the above to occur above all else.

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quote:

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a good number are legitimate stories of how God has chosen to demonstrate something of his power and grace in certain ways.

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quote:

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If it is truly of God then why not support it and pray a blessing upon it?

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quote:

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Without wanting to belittle your point about plagiarism and the concerns this example raises I would respond by my same comment above, if this is of God then....

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quote:

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The fact that God may choose to work through me despite my errors is always a humbling thought and I see this in scripture all the time.

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quote:

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quote:

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Eutychus posted: I therefore think that the time for him being
quote:
............................................
Polly Posted:
"given the benefit of doubt until we have evidence to state otherwise."
.............................................
is over.

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On what authority or Biblical basis can you declare this?

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quote:

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If people are coming to Christ, if genuinely hearts and lives are being transformed for the Kingdom of God then we need to work through the crap (and there will always be some because we ARE human!) and cling on to the goodness of God.

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quote:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:

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Originally posted by Avila:
It is not that you can't take a trip to someone else, even Wales! Just that we don't need to, and I don't take well to the assumption we do which a lot of the hype works on - Get on planes, trains whatever just get here etc

---

Maybe this impulse to travel and to experience new things is part of the human spirit. Evangelical charismatics simply choose their own places to visit, instead of relying on those that were previously sanctioned by much older denominations.

Personally, I'm wary of church leaders who imply that congregations should be satisfied with what they've got rather than yearning for something more. This can sound as though they're just protecting their own interests: they don't want to lose their congregations to other churches! This may be unfair to the clergy, but they need to realise that the trend to travel and explore variety is likely to be unstoppable. Religious leaders may bemoan this spiritual individualism, but as churches weaken and can provide less and less for their members while requiring more effort, they'll need to try to understand it.

Yes, IMO we've reached the point where we all have to have our own spiritual interests at heart, where we have to focus on developing our own spirituality, because we can't really expect the clergy or other church members to have the time or inclination to help us in other than quite a superficial way. People will want to travel around, if only to hear different preaching, or to experience forms of spiritual expression that aren't practiced in their home churches.

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quote:

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Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:

quote:

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Originally posted by Mudfrog:
...The pain simply left her, immediately, without any contradiction.
This young woman who was in so much agony she had to swivel her hips in order to walk was now dancing with me among the tables at an FGB dinner.... and she has never had a recurrence of that arthritis in her hips.

---

Thanks for sharing your wife's experience, Mudfrog! I'll leap in before anyone else, but is there medical evidence that your wife's recovery was thoroughly unexpected? A note to the effect of 'unexplained remission' on her medical records?

I'm really sorry to throw in questions and doubts but, as has been noted above, plenty of medical conditions do occasionally just get better. So without the evidence of a written professional medical opinion, sceptical people probably won't consider the most likely explanation for your wife's recovery to be a miraculous one. Even with medical testimony, there may well be plenty of scepticism.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Polly:
but a good number are legitimate stories of how God has chosen to demonstrate something of his power and grace in certain ways.

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quote:

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Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
...(Leaving aside the elephantine room occupant of why would a loving, caring god remove suffering only after someone asked him to do so?)

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quote:

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Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
(Leaving aside the elephantine room occupant of why would a loving, caring god remove suffering only after someone asked him to do so?)

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Originally posted by Avila:

What about the sense of healing when a self harmer manages to get through the moment of desire and urge without doing anything. Or the healing through the a reduction of pain by a prayer one to one. We don't hype up those stories, or risk declaring this can happen for all. God is with the smoker who quits overnight and has no cravings after prayer and coming to faith (my dad after 40 yr of heavy smoking and failed attempts to quit) but God is also in the healing of the one who faces each craving battle one by one.

When we hype up one way of God working we risk drowning out where he is working elsewhere. And risk the implication that in this example only the big meeting, pop worship etc is where God saves and heals people.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Cara:
I can see the appeal of South Coast Kevin's "warfare" theory but in the end even this doesn't really explain everything. I guess we just are not going to be vouchsafed a satisfying explanation in this life...

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quote:

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Originally posted by South Coast Kevin


I'm writing an essay at the moment on this exact pachydermic subject. The deadline is a week on Monday so after then I may well start up a discussion on here to see what everyone thinks. I certainly agree that it's a big issue, and one which Christians rarely talk about.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
I'm 58 - unlike Mudfrog's wife 20 or 30 years ago - and beginning to suffer chronic and acute arthritis. It will NOT go away. I am grateful for God in His tender mercies. In respite. For His providence. My diabetes will not remit. It will kill me one way or another unless lung cancer does first. And God will be with me in that and the dementia.

Jade Constable. Conjunctivitis does that. As for smelling stuff that may not be there, there are strong rational narratives on that too.

No food for thought apart from the metanarrative. Why we would want to believe otherwise.

And that's all put too harshly. Please forgive that.

As for Cwmbran: I've seen many ex-heroin addicts transfer their addiction to the conservative evangelical opiate: 'spiritual' methadone. It's NOT to be knocked in the absence of more 'expensive' therapies.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:

As for Cwmbran: I've seen many ex-heroin addicts transfer their addiction to the conservative evangelical opiate: 'spiritual' methadone. It's NOT to be knocked in the absence of more 'expensive' therapies.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

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Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:

As for Cwmbran: I've seen many ex-heroin addicts transfer their addiction to the conservative evangelical opiate: 'spiritual' methadone. It's NOT to be knocked in the absence of more 'expensive' therapies.

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Fair point.

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quote:

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18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit...

Ephesians 5:18

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eutychus
Taking the blog down with no explanation looks like a cover-up.

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You mean to say that they've responded, and you're still not satisfied? You think it's a conspiracy?!

What do you expect them to do? Crawl to you in sackcloth and ashes? Walk to Canossa on hands and knees?

It sounds to me like you've got an agenda here, and are trying to "prove a point". If I were in your position I would just be content with the fact that they bothered to listen to me at all.
 

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Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
What do you expect them to do? Crawl to you in sackcloth and ashes? Walk to Canossa on hands and knees?

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quote:

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Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:

quote:

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Originally posted by Eutychus
Taking the blog down with no explanation looks like a cover-up.

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You mean to say that they've responded, and you're still not satisfied? You think it's a conspiracy?!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eutychus
They've reacted, but what they emphatically have not done is responded to me.

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Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:

quote:

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Originally posted by Eutychus
They've reacted, but what they emphatically have not done is responded to me.

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Who cares whether they have responded to you?! What matters is whether they have responded to God.

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Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
if anyone thinks that everyone should confess and apologise publicly, then perhaps he should start a thread critical of private confession - such as, for example, the practice in the Catholic Church and elsewhere?

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quote:

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Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
(Btw, if anyone thinks that everyone should confess and apologise publicly, then perhaps he should start a thread critical of private confession - such as, for example, the practice in the Catholic Church and elsewhere?)

---

quote:

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Eutychus posted:
.....................................
quote:
Polly Posted:
a good number are legitimate stories of how God has chosen to demonstrate something of his power and grace in certain ways.
.................................
I haven't seen a "good number" of "legitimate stories" from Cwmbran. Yet.

---

quote:

---

quote:
..................................
Polly posted:
Without wanting to belittle your point about plagiarism and the concerns this example raises I would respond by my same comment above, if this is of God then....
.................................
Then what? This is a no-brainer. They should have fessed up up. Taking the blog down with no explanation looks like a cover-up. It compounds the problem, it doesn't take it away.

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quote:

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HughWillRidmee
quote:

Originally posted by Polly:
but a good number are legitimate stories of how God has chosen to demonstrate something of his power and grace in certain ways.
.................................................
I fully accept that you believe that but all it amounts to at present is a single, unsupported statement. Which stories do you offer as legitimate and what validates them as being an indisputable demonstration of divine power?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Avila:

This church in cwmbran has a history working with addicts and post-addicts. I would want to celebrate that long term ministry more than a month of hyped meetings, though God will work always.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Polly:
One of the things that would cause me concern when anything like this happens is when a church or individual promotes self, the 'look at me/us' scenario and does not example humility.

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quote:

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I will be staying is Sussex [sic] and speaking at the same venue again tomorrow night as the Holy Spirit as [sic] much more to do here.

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quote:

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Again without taking away from the seriousness of plagiarism we also have to balance the fact that there are degrees of plagiarism. I have no idea of what the detail and extent of what was done

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quote:

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I still don't think that it should be used to dismiss the point being made that many people are coming to Christ.

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I'm sorry, I just completely don't get this. The implication of your statement is that if many people are coming to Christ, any related misconduct simply doesn't matter.

In some quarters, "People are coming to Christ" seems to have become a sort of super-spiritual nuclear option which trumps any other question, reservation, objection or criticism*.

It should be the opposite! The more a "great work" is alleged to be going on, the more the leaders should be, and be seen to be, above reproach.

Have the Church's ethical standards fallen so low that we don't dare to question anyone's practices in the fear that if we do, nobody will ever come to Christ again? It's not much wonder there are so many charlatans out there. They just have to say they are doing the Lord's work (and probably add that "the Lord has taught them not to respond to criticism") to get a free pass. Lord have mercy on us.

quote:

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In addition we simply don't know if the stuff you found has been repented of in humility or not. This may have been done publicly during a service or in a more private setting. It may not have been done at all.

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quote:

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But surely that is between the person concerned and God

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quote:

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and just because we don't get the response does not qualify or disqualify God coming in grace and power.

---

again. The issue is not whether or not God is coming in grace and power, the issue is whether the leadership is worthy of our trust. God coming in grace and power is not an endorsement of the leadership and is not an excuse not to examine their credentials.

Besides, we can argue until the eschaton about whether God is coming in grace and power, whereas my allegation of plagiarism rests on objective evidence which is (or was) there for all to see. I think a lot of people prefer to stay in super-spiritual never-never land rather than look at the facts.

==

*As I have mentioned elsewhere, I know an evangelistic organisation whose trustees know the central testimony is a lie, who trot out this argument, apparently in all seriousness, when faced with the evidence.

[ 19. May 2013, 16:06: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
 

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Posted by Avila (# 15541) on :
 
A couple of thoughts from the radio conversation (link above)

over ten thousand people have been through the church - how is that calculated, how can it possibly be done? If it is based on capacity times meetings then you will always be flawed by the returners.

evidence of it being the holy spirit is that people are coming from so far away even flying in - but isn't that because of the stories being told? Has anyone had a direct HS prompt to travel without that.

Interesting conversations - Andy Frost comes from a mildly charismatic background and keen to sound positive about it. Karen Smith more comfortable to ask questions, and presenter Roy Jenkins always happy to probe yet without doing a Paxman.

Interesting to hear others thoughts about it, as input with the pastor not in preaching mode as in most of the website material.
 

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Posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard (# 368) on :
 
Superb Eutychus. Keep up the GOOD work. You are a TRUE prophet.
 

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Posted by Polly (# 1107) on :
 
@ Eutychus

In relation to your Twitter feed find I think you are reading far too much into what you have quoted. There's nothing there!

More importantly I am not disagreeing with anything you state about the expectations of Church leaders and ethical behaviour.

Neither have I suggested that Taylor be given a free pass and yes if he has not done so I would also suggest that he be held properly accountable for the plagiarism.

For me I am being asked to judge a situation on purely second hand opinions where no-one here has directly had any experience of the Victory Church or Taylor.

My point is that we should just wait and see before casting stones ( I am sure Jesus had something to say about this!). It could just be God is using the whole situation for his honour and glory!

After speaking to my folks tonight (my dad tends to be more sceptical about these things than my mum) but both said that what struck them when Taylor spoke at their church this week was that Taylor simply was not interested in self hype and just focussed on the gospel.
 

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Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Polly:
In relation to your Twitter feed find I think you are reading far too much into what you have quoted. There's nothing there!

---

quote:

---

what struck them when Taylor spoke at their church this week was that Taylor simply was not interested in self hype and just focussed on the gospel.

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quote:

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a show business to business resource for platinum calibre artistes and world wide theatre tours

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eutychus
It seems to me that a proper response to God would also involve reparation, in this case by correcting the mistaken impression given to others.

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quote:

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I found this about five minutes ago (before you posted!) on Taylor's Twitter feed from May 16:

quote:

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I will be staying is Sussex [sic] and speaking at the same venue again tomorrow night as the Holy Spirit as [sic] much more to do here.

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The implication is that if he doesn't stay in Horsham, neither will the Holy Spirit. It seems to be as clear an example of self-promotion and not "exampling humility" as you could wish to find. I swear I don't go looking for these things!

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quote:

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Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
they have corrected the mistaken impression by taking the blog down.

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quote:

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you want to rub their noses in it.

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quote:

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After all, given the sort of attitude you have displayed on this thread, it's not far fetched to think that there are people who are just out to trash his ministry. Some of these may wish to take their grievance further.

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quote:

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your truly outrageous interpretation of his tweet

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quote:

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I will be staying is Sussex [sic] and speaking at the same venue again tomorrow night as the Holy Spirit as [sic] much more to do here.

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quote:

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Since you are so keen to have direct correspondence with Richard Taylor, then why don't you ask him whether he really honestly believes that the Holy Spirit cannot work other than through him. I suspect that he would be utterly horrified at that idea.

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quote:

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And as for Matthew 6:12 - what is your point?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eutychus:

You may also have missed the fact brought up earlier in the thread that Taylor is on the books of a promotional agency called Personality Artistes which describes itself as

quote:

---

a show business to business resource for platinum calibre artistes and world wide theatre tours

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Cognitive dissonance is a sneaky thing. If the emphasis is on the gospel, why do we need to go to Cwmbran?
[/QB]

---

Yes I did miss this but in what context is he "on the books"?

I think you are pre-judging before you have proper knowledge of what is exactly going on.

Eutychus - I get it that you are not keen (mildly putting it ) on the Victory Church and that for reasons previously mentioned you have just cause to be suspect in regards to a lot of the charismatic church scene but maybe standing back rather than casting judgement is more helpful.

If I get the opportunity I will 'see for myself' but I can't dismiss something like this out of hand on what you have said because maybe just maybe God is in this. To declare otherwise could end up foolish but I will always use discernment rather than run with arms open wide.

BTW no one is promoting going to the Victory Church and there is nothing out of the ordinary on their website just a page for visitors which is very common for church websites.


 

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Posted by wishandaprayer (# 17673) on :
 
Eutychus -

I don't know you, but I have followed your story for years, literally. I am amazed by it and the grace that I see in your postings throughout this site, especially given what you went through.

I am still in two minds about what is happening in Cwmbran, largely leaning on the side of heavily skeptical about it. The plagiarism does not at all surprise me, after all we know that many Christian books nowadays are ghost written (though it's not the same thing), and the minute something controversial comes up, the blame is shifted to the ghost writer.

The report of a man who many people have known in a wheelchair being healed, as the start of this "revival" is interesting to me, because it's such a "visible" healing. Man couldn't walk, now can. The skeptical part of me wonders why this hasn't been reported further in press.

However, I do want to add two things on the positive side. Firstly your interpretation of his tweet:

"I will be staying is Sussex [sic] and speaking at the same venue again tomorrow night as the Holy Spirit as [sic] much more to do here."

We could come at this from another angle - he is wanting to stay and speak at the venue for a second night because he believes the Holy Spirit has much more to do there, regardless of whether he stays or goes, therefore he chooses to stay. Maybe even in him. That puts him in a more favorable light.

Another thing I have heard reported (albeit secondhand), is that they rejected the approach of God TV to broadcast the services. This may just prove to be a shrewd move - God TV being largely regarded as crackpots across most sectors - but it could also be a genuine move by the church, and indeed this pastor, to keep things authentic.

I have no issue with what you've written so far, but wanted to submit that there may be another side to this.

Personally, I want to see the Wheelchair healing substantiated, this would be an easily medically verifiable healing, I imagine.
 

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Posted by Eutychus (# 3081) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Polly:
Yes I did miss this but in what context is he "on the books"?

---

quote:

---

I can't dismiss something like this out of hand on what you have said because maybe just maybe God is in this.

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quote:

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BTW no one is promoting going to the Victory Church

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eutychus
[QUOTE]I can't dismiss something like this out of hand on what you have said because maybe just maybe God is in this.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Polly:
we should have a framework of grace and not a legalistic one which is what you seem to be suggesting.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

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Originally posted by Polly:
we should have a framework of grace and not a legalistic one which is what you seem to be suggesting.

---

I'm really not sure what you mean by that. What is my "legalistic" framework, and what "framework of grace" would you prefer?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Polly:
Your language and insinuation has been towards Victory Church that because of your investiating their claims are not legitimate. That before you can consider anything they say they must clarify the situation in regards to the plagiarism.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Polly:
Your language and insinuation has been towards Victory Church that because of your investiating their claims are not legitimate. That before you can consider anything they say they must clarify the situation in regards to the plagiarism.

---

I think it would be fairer to say that the plagiarism issue (and how Victory Church have dealt with it) has made Eutychus particularly wary of the claimed healings and miracles.

The point being that extraordinary claims require a greater level of (a) integrity on the part of those making the claims, and (b) scrutiny on the part of everyone else.

I think there's been a sense on this thread that we should actually reduce our wariness when people make claims of the Lord being at work powerfully.* I'm with Eutychus; this is a dangerous approach which opens Christians up to mockery should the claims not stand up to scrutiny, and it can also lead to interested Christians having hyped up expectations followed by disappointment and bitterness.

*I don't think anyone's used this exact phrase but it's the idea that we shouldn't 'quench the Holy Spirit' with questions and doubting.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Polly:
Your language and insinuation has been towards Victory Church that because of your investiating their claims are not legitimate. That before you can consider anything they say they must clarify the situation in regards to the plagiarism.

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quote:

---

My point is that I don't necessarily feel Victory Church need to tick boxes in regards to the plagiarism matter in order to say they are experiencing a genuine move of the Spirit.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Polly:
my point has been that we should not allow this to get in the way if this is a genuie movement of the Spirit.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eutychus:
In this post Avila reports on their live stream and mentions an exhortation to "come here whether by minibus or plane". I took that to be a quote from the stream, if I'm mistaken please correct me. I could go through the blogosphere or twitter stream with other examples but I'd probably be accused of being biased...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Polly:
@Eutychus

I am still unsure to what degree of plagiarism you are talking about. You obviously are referring to specifics but I have only been able to generalise.

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quote:

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Apart from I've not advocated reducing a wariness but my point has been that we should not allow this to get in the way if this is a genuie movement of the Spirit.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Polly:
I am still unsure to what degree of plagiarism you are talking about. You obviously are referring to specifics but I have only been able to generalise.

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quote:

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My reluctance to share your voice in requesting further action is tempered with those closest to me after listening personally to *** (still can't remember his name!) say he spoke with great humility.

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quote:

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My reluctance to share your voice in requesting further action is tempered with those closest to me after listening personally to *** (still can't remember his name!) say he spoke with great humility.

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quote:

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At almost precisely 7:35pm on April 10, 2013 the heavens opened over Wales, in the town of Cwmbran in particular.

---

At almost precisely...
 

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Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
"Inaccurate prophets are to be stoned to death."
 

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Posted by wishandaprayer (# 17673) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by daronmedway:

quote:

---

At almost precisely 7:35pm on April 10, 2013 the heavens opened over Wales, in the town of Cwmbran in particular.

---

At almost precisely...

---

Do you not realise:

(19 [using the 24 hour clock] x 60 [the number of minutes in an hour]) + 3 + 5 = 1,148

April 10, 2013 = 4 + 10 + 2013 = 2,027

2,028 - 1,148 = 879

The numerological value of Cwmbran is 6,153

6,153 / 879 = 7

And we all know 7 is the number of completeness, ERGO, this is a move of God.

Yes, I'm bored this morning.
 

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Posted by The Midge (# 2398) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
"Inaccurate prophets are to be stoned to death."

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quote:

---

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
At almost precisely 7:35pm on April 10, 2013 the heavens opened over Wales, in the town of Cwmbran in particular.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

At almost precisely...

---

ETA since when can rain in Wales be said to be a miraculous? Miracles by definition are an extraordinary and inexplicable event.

[ 20. May 2013, 12:14: Message edited by: The Midge ]
 

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Posted by Avila (# 15541) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by daronmedway:

quote:

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At almost precisely 7:35pm on April 10, 2013 the heavens opened over Wales, in the town of Cwmbran in particular.

---

At almost precisely...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Avila:

quote:

---

Originally posted by daronmedway:

quote:

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At almost precisely 7:35pm on April 10, 2013 the heavens opened over Wales, in the town of Cwmbran in particular.

---

At almost precisely...

---

Note that this is in the dialect area where
'Now in a minute' makes perfect sense!

---

quote:

---

Eutychus posted:

Curiosity has gotten the better of me so thanking you in advance for sending me the link as the link posted earlier on this thread no longer works.

---

quote:

---

The Rhythm Methodist posted:
That's not to say that there were no worthwhile aspects to his messages, but if I were to accuse him of anything, it wouldn't be humility.

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quote:

---

Komensky posted:
We're still at this point: anyone who claims there 'is a movement of the Holy Spirit' [so God isn't omnipresent? He comes to some places and not others? Where, when and why?] and then the expected happens (people claim healing, etc.). No proof is offered and any suggestion that this might be yet another delusion (with still zero proven miracle healings to date) are immediately attacked as efforts to 'quench a movement of The Spirit'. There it is: the pathological tendency of some charismatics to believe that someone can speak something into truth. It's been spoken by one of their kind and is therefore, ipso facto, an incontrovertible truth.

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quote:

---

The revelation that this preacher is a plagiarist (which is deeply dishonest and illegal practice) simple doesn't factor.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eutychus:
But just to balance that up, sure enough his blog had a little piece on "How I deal with criticism".

The blog's been pulled, but it's still in Google's cache here.

And it's plagiarized, apparently from here, which pre-dates his blogpost. The text also appeared in print that year in a book called "The Law of Attraction" by Michael Hansbury. Google a few phrases from the list of points and you can see for yourself.

---

Oh, good grief. That's shameless. 'Here is how I deal with criticism', Mr Taylor says. 'And I got these wonderful life lessons from Chuck Gallozzi's marvellous blog', Mr Taylor does not say.
 

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Posted by Avila (# 15541) on :
 
Interesting post in that cache link from his blog 2009

quote:

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My doubts come from personal observation, .... Secondly, how many of these people in wheelchairs do you know? Are they genuinely medically disabled and cannot leave the chair? Are they missing both legs? After they receive healing, are they back in the chair and ready for the next "healing" service? This is the norm of what I have seen.... I have known people with organic (real, observable and documented maladies) that go forward in these services and get "healed." They have called me with the testimony that they are completely healed! But upon in-depth questioning , I always find that they have not really been healed at all. All they are doing is "claiming" healing. ... Healers who want your money will say that this "claiming" to be healed is faith. Other's who see someone confessing a non-existent healing rightfully call it what it is - psychotic behavior!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Avila:
web page

Apologies if this is too long, tried to trim it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Polly:
What an incredibly cynical post! In addition you have completely misunderstood what an outpouring (or whatever we want to label it) of the Holy Spirit is.

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quote:

---

One of the problems with focussing on the dramatic in one place is the power that 'specialness' conveys.

I used victory church's facebook page to ask if they have had responses yet or stories that can be publicised from the Pastor's calls for those healed to get it verified.

The reply I got - from joe public not anyone church related - was...


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I'd say go there and find out. I haven't been, but if word of mouth doesn't verify it, perhaps only experiencing it will.
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That unthinking conviction comes when you think one place, or one person is especially anointed.
Even when the people concerned are encouraging that testing, followers don't want anything to dampen the story for them.

And soon it applies not just to what is said and done there but any friend of a friend of a friend version of what is said/done there.

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Originally posted by Komensky:

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Originally posted by Polly:
What an incredibly cynical post! In addition you have completely misunderstood what an outpouring (or whatever we want to label it) of the Holy Spirit is.

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This is packed with assumptions. Prove your case. How can you prove that The Holy Spirit is the source of such events? To date, there is still not one single proven miracle cure from such an event. The speaking in tongues was debunked decades ago and all the quivering and barking like dogs is attributable to other social, environmental and psychological factors (and is found in other non-Christian events as well). You believe it because you believe it. Again, we have the situation so common amongst charismatics that all subjective experiences must be treated as unimpeachable truths. It's pathological behaviour.

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
How convenient. If we can't prove that extravagant claims aren't true, then they are?

I find this bizarre reasoning.

OK. A spaceship from Epsilon Eridani 3 landed in my back garden last night. It was flown by cats. You have my personal testimony that this happened. I can describe the cats in detail if you like; the captain was a tabby with a bit of ginger.

Unfortunately the cats vouchsafed to me that they had to be careful not to leave any evidence because of the Prime Directive, so that's why I can't provide any. But they really were there.

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Originally posted by Polly:
...I have always advocated that it is right to test everything and use discernment.

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What kind of evidence do you want to see when claims of the Holy Spirit working are made?

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Originally posted by Komensky:

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
How convenient. If we can't prove that extravagant claims aren't true, then they are?

I find this bizarre reasoning.

OK. A spaceship from Epsilon Eridani 3 landed in my back garden last night. It was flown by cats. You have my personal testimony that this happened. I can describe the cats in detail if you like; the captain was a tabby with a bit of ginger.

Unfortunately the cats vouchsafed to me that they had to be careful not to leave any evidence because of the Prime Directive, so that's why I can't provide any. But they really were there.

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Did they leave behind a 'tangible presence' [by which I mean 'untangle presence'], an 'energy' that I can come and rub all over me and take back to my cats?

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Originally posted by Polly:

Your accusations show that you only read what you want to as I have never asked or demanded that my views be treated as "Unpeachable truths" and I have always advocated that it is right to test everything and use discernment.

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Originally posted by Polly:
Rather than someone who believes themselves to be a reasoned individual you come across more like the Pharisees in scripture who wouldn't believe even though it was Jesus working in their own back yard.

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Originally posted by wishandaprayer:
It seems another church is taking credit for what is happening here and, in fact, traces it back to (guess what?!) the "Toronto Blessing".

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Originally posted by chris stiles:

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Originally posted by wishandaprayer:
It seems another church is taking credit for what is happening here and, in fact, traces it back to (guess what?!) the "Toronto Blessing".

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Which proves the dictum that history repeats itself, the second time as farce:

"The truth is God is behind it all and we praise Him and bless Him and together give Him all the glory. Ever since Acts two the anointing has been past from one person to another and from one generation to another."

A re-invention of apostolic succession. Presumably the usual suspects (Sister Aimee, William Branham etc) will somewhere in this chain.

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Originally posted by wishandaprayer:
It seems another church is taking credit for what is happening here

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Love it. "All credit goes to God / we want to be given some credit for doing it first". Make your minds up guys!
 

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Posted by Polly (# 1107) on :
 

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Karl: Liberal Backslider posted

How convenient. If we can't prove that extravagant claims aren't true, then they are?

I find this bizarre reasoning.

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Marvin the Martian posted:
A person claims to have been wheelchair bound, then healed so that the wheelchair is no longer needed. Surely that person could provide medical evidence for this claim perfectly easily. Doctor/patient confidentiality doesn't apply when the patient is the one revealing the information.

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Marvin the Martian posted:
Yet you reject every test or discernment technique that anyone else suggests.

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Chris Stiles Posted
Chris Stiles Posted:
So what, in your view, would constitute discernment in this case?

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Eutychus posted:
You argue that people are being encouraged to go to their doctors and check and that patient confidentiality prohibits further investigation. I would suggest that similar confidentiality should in that case extend to the healing itself. One is reminded of Jesus' enjoining those healed not to tell anyone. At the least the healings shouldn't be brandied about on the platform without proper verification. We have been here so many times before.

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

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Originally posted by wishandaprayer:
It seems another church is taking credit for what is happening here

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Love it. "All credit goes to God / we want to be given some credit for doing it first". Make your minds up guys!

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Originally posted by Polly:

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Karl: Liberal Backslider posted

How convenient. If we can't prove that extravagant claims aren't true, then they are?

I find this bizarre reasoning.

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Your reasoning is the bizarre point because it is only the others side of the debate that says if we can't disprove that they are true then they can't be!

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Two people have cancer. One brain and the other lung. They both receive the appropriate medical treatment but both receive a huge amount of prayer for healing. One is cured and the other doesn't. is the one who survives only so because of medical treatment and is the one who does not survive because of the failure of prayer?

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Originally posted by Polly:

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Marvin the Martian posted:
A person claims to have been wheelchair bound, then healed so that the wheelchair is no longer needed. Surely that person could provide medical evidence for this claim perfectly easily. Doctor/patient confidentiality doesn't apply when the patient is the one revealing the information.

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You mean something similar to this?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4902332.stm

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Originally posted by Polly:
You mean something similar to this?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/4902332.stm

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we need to be weary [sic] of such characters

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I don't know about 'need', but I certainly am

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More generally I am more likely to be open to a so called 'move of the Spirit' if people I know and trust have had some experience of it and have come away thinking actually God could have something to do with this.

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However the silence from Taylor towards those who have posed the questions should not be automatically treated as Taylor having not repented or not confessing to those he is accountable to (...) I know Eutychus is a man of integrity but would I respond to him in writing if I didn't and if he was asking questions? Possibly not.

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Care has to be made not to put God in a box and say he only works in this or that way. I agree we need to take care before making grand claims and any made must be directed with thanks to God and not seek credit or praise ourselves.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider posted

How convenient. If we can't prove that extravagant claims aren't true, then they are?

I find this bizarre reasoning.
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Polly Posted:
Your reasoning is the bizarre point because it is only the others side of the debate that says if we can't disprove that they are true then they can't be!
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Not at all. My point is that claims of miraculous cures are extraordinary claims. So it's reasonable to be very suspicious of their veracity without some evidence. Extraordinary evidence, indeed. Not third hand FoF reports.

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“You tell me.”

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Polly Posted
More generally I am more likely to be open to a so called 'move of the Spirit' if people I know and trust have had some experience of it and have come away thinking actually God could have something to do with this.

Eutychus posted:
The trouble with this is that it is precisely how charlatans get away with things. They abuse the trust of people we trust.

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I perceive that you are afraid that if you question something that anybody claims loudly to be of God, you will be committing the sin against the Holy Spirit. I contrast this with the attitude to be found in the epistles where Paul does not hesitate, not only to rejoice generously in what he can, but also to call BS in no uncertain terms when needed.

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For example if someone claims a limb has grown out of nothing then this should be fairly straight forward to see by comparing photographic evidence.

But what about when someone has terrible back pain that has been so painful and restrictive and then they find after prayer they have more freedom and less pain?

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Originally posted by Polly:
Doesn't this also depend on the level of trust we have with our family and friends and their ability to discern. Without this we would get nowhere in life and would all be paranoid?

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How come they go crazy in congregations but only get better one by one?

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Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:

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Originally posted by Polly:
Your language and insinuation has been towards Victory Church that because of your investiating their claims are not legitimate. That before you can consider anything they say they must clarify the situation in regards to the plagiarism.

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I think it would be fairer to say that the plagiarism issue (and how Victory Church have dealt with it) has made Eutychus particularly wary of the claimed healings and miracles.

The point being that extraordinary claims require a greater level of (a) integrity on the part of those making the claims, and (b) scrutiny on the part of everyone else.

I think there's been a sense on this thread that we should actually reduce our wariness when people make claims of the Lord being at work powerfully.* I'm with Eutychus; this is a dangerous approach which opens Christians up to mockery should the claims not stand up to scrutiny, and it can also lead to interested Christians having hyped up expectations followed by disappointment and bitterness.

*I don't think anyone's used this exact phrase but it's the idea that we shouldn't 'quench the Holy Spirit' with questions and doubting.

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Simple question: what fruit have we seen from all the services and all the healings? In other words how have people's lives been changed (not just their bodies - if they have)?

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Originally posted by Komensky:

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Simple question: what fruit have we seen from all the services and all the healings? In other words how have people's lives been changed (not just their bodies - if they have)?

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You here this a lot. Some preacher is revealed to be a fraud and all the tricks are exposed and then some plonker says 'yeah, but look at those lives that were changed! Some people turned their backs on drugs (etc.); surely that's the work of The Spirit! How can you criticise that?!'. All kinds of self-help programmes get exactly the same results.

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Be careful too of looking at parallels with the Welsh Revival. There were very specific historical factors at play and a lot of hype too: it's not coincidental that the major players dropped out of sight very quickly.

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It does appear though that on this thread it would not matter if a healing took place right in front of some because they still wouldn't believe it. This has been a repeated attitude and my reponse has been to ask what is that others would claim they require in order to authenticate claims of healings?

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Originally posted by Polly:
It does appear though that on this thread it would not matter if a healing took place right in front of some because they still wouldn't believe it. This has been a repeated attitude and my reponse has been to ask what is that others would claim they require in order to authenticate claims of healings?

But I do accept that some have represented the Kingdom badly but then again so have Anglicans, Baptists (of which I am one), Catholics etc. My local Anglican vicar in Croydon stole thousands of pounds from the church and this was a very traditional church. Discernment is required in all areas of the church because wolves will work in all circles.

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Originally posted by Polly:
It does appear though that on this thread it would not matter if a healing took place right in front of some because they still wouldn't believe it. This has been a repeated attitude and my reponse has been to ask what is that others would claim they require in order to authenticate claims of healings?

There has been no answer.

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Well, I suppose there is the argument that God uses broken vessels....

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I don't know if anyone was healed, there weren't any testimonies afterwards, but you could see that things were happening all around.

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Well, I suppose there is the argument that God uses broken vessels....

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Originally posted by chris stiles:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Well, I suppose there is the argument that God uses broken vessels....

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God uses all sorts of means - that is not necessarily an endorsement of any of them.

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God is not moved by your need but by your faith

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Where's God grace in all this? Where's the recognition of His sovereign power to act as He wills, not as we demand?

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Blown away on the fuzzy winds of fluffy, sugary charismaticism, with a healthy order of legalism and guilt-tripping on top.

This kind of carry-on could convert me to cessationism.

When Jesus healed, the evidence was indisputable, despite the efforts of the religious establishment to trip Him up. INDISPUTABLE. Instantaneous healings. Of blindness, deafness, lameness, epilepsy, a serious menstrual disorder, possession by an evil spirit/mental illness ... raising people from the dead. No ambiguity, no messing.

I am open to the power of the Holy Spirit. I don't doubt that actually He can and DOES heal today.

But I see more of His 'anointing' (to use a popular charismatic buzzword, although it actually has respectable biblical credentials, despite the abuse of the word) on the life of someone like Joni Eareckson Tada, who has remained a radiant witness to Christ in her 40 difficult years of being a quadriplegic.

God is with us in the pain and the crap. That is just as powerful.
 

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Posted by ExclamationMark (# 14715) on :
 

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Originally posted by Laurelin:

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Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Where's God grace in all this? Where's the recognition of His sovereign power to act as He wills, not as we demand?

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Blown away on the fuzzy winds of fluffy, sugary charismaticism, with a healthy order of legalism and guilt-tripping on top.

This kind of carry-on could convert me to cessationism.

When Jesus healed, the evidence was indisputable, despite the efforts of the religious establishment to trip Him up. INDISPUTABLE. Instantaneous healings. Of blindness, deafness, lameness, epilepsy, a serious menstrual disorder, possession by an evil spirit/mental illness ... raising people from the dead. No ambiguity, no messing.

I am open to the power of the Holy Spirit. I don't doubt that actually He can and DOES heal today.

But I see more of His 'anointing' (to use a popular charismatic buzzword, although it actually has respectable biblical credentials, despite the abuse of the word) on the life of someone like Joni Eareckson Tada, who has remained a radiant witness to Christ in her 40 difficult years of being a quadriplegic.

God is with us in the pain and the crap. That is just as powerful.

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Originally posted by Avila:
Tonight Pastor Robbie Howells of Newport City Church leading.

Gave testimony, call to faith, then all about how he had a vision that 2013 would be a year of outpouring. Talking up faith and said -

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God is not moved by your need but by your faith

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Repeats several times, that our faith releases God's signs and wonders etc, only by faith.

And that those who believe will do more than Jesus.

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Originally posted by Clodsley Shovel:
I really can't be doing with this gently playing minor chords whilst someone speaks/prays/encourages/bullies people to make a decision and raise their hands, I cant imagine for a moment its a device Jesus would have employed while he spoke, its manipulative.

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Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
I don't think it's anything unique to Cwmbran specifically or to charismatic Christian practice generally.

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Mind you, you get soft music playing in the background at many other charismatic church services, conferences etc.; in addition, other church styles have their own mood-setting / manipulation techniques, don't they?

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Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
I think there is an important line between creating an atmosphere (of whatever style)which facilitates people in experiencing/ connecting with God and manipulation.

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Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:

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Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
I think there is an important line between creating an atmosphere (of whatever style)which facilitates people in experiencing/ connecting with God and manipulation.

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Oh yes, I agree. It's just that line is important, but rather fuzzy IMO! One person's reverential atmosphere is another's psychological manipulation technique...

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