quote:

---

The problem with this third interpretation is that it permits a man to fantasise to his heart’s content about a woman, as long as he assures himself that under no circumstances would he attempt to play out the fantasy in practice, which would appear to militate against the spirit, if not the letter, of Christ’s command.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
On the other hand, I do sympathize with people who have obsessive thought patterns, as they are incredibly difficult to shift. It can seem as if the thought pattern owns the person, rather than the other way round.

---

Again, also this would mean that real choice - and hence culpability - is diminished, perhaps even to the point where there is none. The problem is of course that we are very good at inventing excuses for ourselves. Nevertheless, often we are in fact excused. There is an entire "practical psychology" hidden in the old Catholic moral manuals and treaties, which in my opinion is both very realistic and rather humane. In particular the question of "habit formation" is highly interesting in this.

The real shame is that one nowadays mostly has to piece this together from bits and pieces. I wish that I knew of a "go to" reference for all this stuff, and preferably not one in Latin from the 17th century...
 

---

Posted by Ged (# 16049) on :
 
Background: faithful (secular sense) bloke married for six and a half years. Had the usual (I believe) experience with porn as a teen. Mostly sorted, largely thanks to an inspired paternal intervention. The memories of habits remain challenging nonetheless!

I wonder if a very simple, memorable comment of our vicar might help: basically, if we see pretty ladies int' street, we ought to look only once (and ideally not at her arse from behind, I guess). In my experience of trying this I seem to have found a sort of perverse (sic) satisfaction.

I, too, like IngoB's analysis.
 

---

Posted by Snags (# 15351) on :
 
It just makes me contemplate the value of "Hung for a sheep as a lamb"

(Actually, I tend towards a combination of Matt Black's view and the illustrative hyperbole reading).
 

---

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :
 
There's a difference between having an idea cross your mind and entertaining that idea.

This applies not just to sexual thoughts, but other kinds too, such as aggression. I have moments when I feel like strangling someone. If I push the idea out of my mind, I have not sinned. If I wallow in it, then I have.

Moo
 

---

Posted by Chorister (# 473) on :
 
You can train yourself to do a certain amount, eg. look away, try to think of something else. When I get depressing thoughts in the middle of the night, eg. remembering and obsessing about something upsetting that happened in the past, I try to use distraction training to get myself through it and concentrate my mind on something happier. So I believe it can be done in other situations too, but only if you really want to. I suspect in the 'looking in lust' case, the person concerned doesn't really want to!
 

---

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 

quote:

---

Moo: This applies not just to sexual thoughts, but other kinds too, such as aggression. I have moments when I feel like strangling someone. If I push the idea out of my mind, I have not sinned. If I wallow in it, then I have.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
For this and other reasons (eg its heterosexuality) a liberal view of the Bible will dismiss or ignore this pericope, but for anyone trying to take the warning seriously, there appear to be a number of options.

---

Really? As a liberal in terms of scripture, I take it very seriously and don't in the least dismiss it. I'm not sure why any liberal would?

However, my own no doubt liberal and therefore dismissable view of this scripture, given its context is, it is yet another of Jesus's reminders to the legalists that even those who think they're 'within the law' and one of God's little sunbeams, are still in fact just sinners like the rest of us.
 

---

Posted by Freddy (# 365) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
For this and other reasons (eg its heterosexuality) a liberal view of the Bible will dismiss or ignore this pericope, but for anyone trying to take the warning seriously, there appear to be a number of options.

---

Really? As a liberal in terms of scripture, I take it very seriously and don't in the least dismiss it. I'm not sure why any liberal would?

---

quote:

---

I find that when someone does something nasty to me, it really helps me psychologically to think very aggressive thoughts towards this person for a moment. Often it lasts less than a second, but I consciously choose to allow them for this time. To me, this much better than letting these feelings simmer on subconsciously. After I've recognised my aggressive feelings in this way, it's very easy for me to let go of them.

---

quote:

---

Quoted by footwasher: But I say to you that anyone who is angry with a brother will be subjected to judgment.

---

If God didn't want me to be angry at anyone, maybe He shouldn't have put so many stoopid people on the world

BTW I really like the last part of the text you quoted "whoever says ‘Fool’ will be sent to fiery hell". To me this is a clear indication that Jesus was hyperboling, so coming back to the original topic, I go mostly with Kaplan Corday's interpretation #2, with a bit of #3 thrown in. I also liked Anselmina's explication.


Fool. Fool. Fool.

(This isn't directed at you, just testing something out )
 

---

Posted by Evensong (# 14696) on :
 
I've responded to you in Hell Kaplan Corday
 

---

Posted by Alogon (# 5513) on :
 
Naif that I am, I would have thought that it makes some difference whether either you or the woman you're lusting about are already married.
If not, where's the adultery?
 

---

Posted by footwasher (# 15599) on :
 
I'd tend to go with don't entertain the thought.

When I get the first inkling, I tell myself, "Oh, oh! Don't go there...". It comes under forming good habits.
 

---

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
'Tis fornication, then.

[reply to Alogon]

[ 09. May 2012, 15:07: Message edited by: Matt Black ]
 

---

Posted by HCH (# 14313) on :
 
It seems to me that the passage tends to trivialize adultery. If adultery is no worse than casual lust, then it's not much of a crime, as common as dirt.
 

---

Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by HCH:
It seems to me that the passage tends to trivialize adultery. If adultery is no worse than casual lust, then it's not much of a crime, as common as dirt.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by HCH:
It seems to me that the passage tends to trivialize adultery. If adultery is no worse than casual lust, then it's not much of a crime, as common as dirt.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fr Weber:
It's not that adultery is no worse than casual lust; it's that casual lust is as bad as adultery.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fr Weber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HCH:
It seems to me that the passage tends to trivialize adultery. If adultery is no worse than casual lust, then it's not much of a crime, as common as dirt.

---

It's not that adultery is no worse than casual lust; it's that casual lust is as bad as adultery.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by George Spigot:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HCH:
It seems to me that the passage tends to trivialize adultery. If adultery is no worse than casual lust, then it's not much of a crime, as common as dirt.

---

I agree. Its like....thinking about murder and actualy commiting a murder. Two VERY different things. A bible verse that claims thinking and doing are as bad as each other makes no sense to me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Freddy:
Could this be a gender difference?

A liberal male may assert that sexual interest is normal and that stigmatizing it is narrow minded. But a liberal female does not at all appreciate the male habit of staring at every attractive woman who walks by.

As for its male orientation and heterosexuality, I think the simple answer is that historically and cross-culturally the overt sexual interest that men display for any attractive woman has been an acknowledged problem. It demeans women and causes fights among men. Men sometimes murder other men who look lustfully at their wives. Wars have been fought over it.

While in theory the same principle should apply to the female desire for men, as well as homosexual desire, these things haven't been as problematic in practice. I think that research shows that there are gender differences when it comes to the sexual response to visual stimuli.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
The late David Kossof wrote a poem/prayer about his delight in watching air hostesses during as flight.

The gist was that we can thank God for for beauty.

I think it becomes lust when we don't want to include God in our thoughts.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fr Weber:
George Spigot's confusion above is understandable considering that secular society is generally unclear about the differences between sin and crime.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fr Weber:
It's not that adultery is no worse than casual lust; it's that casual lust is as bad as adultery.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alogon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fr Weber:
It's not that adultery is no worse than casual lust; it's that casual lust is as bad as adultery.

---

Why would that be?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alogon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fr Weber:
It's not that adultery is no worse than casual lust; it's that casual lust is as bad as adultery.

---

Why would that be? Does breaking promises and risking the destruction of a relationship or two count for nothing?

The way I see it, Jesus is giving counsels of perfection in this chapter with the implication that we should work on our own imperfections before pointing the finger at others.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
The late David Kossof wrote a poem/prayer about his delight in watching air hostesses during as flight.

The gist was that we can thank God for for beauty.

I think it becomes lust when we don't want to include God in our thoughts.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by George Spigot:
So would christians generally say that while a person might see thinking about doing something wrong and doing something wrong as not the same God would see both as sins and therefore just as wrong as each other?

---

quote:

---

“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

For this and other reasons (eg its heterosexuality) a liberal view of the Bible will dismiss or ignore this pericope, but for anyone trying to take the warning seriously, there appear to be a number of options.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

'Thinking about' can cover a range of possibilities.
Take as an example: 'this dog is thinking about running onto the pitch, stealing the ball, and biting the umpire in the leg'. That can mean that the dog is considering the matter as an abstract possibility. On the other hand, it can mean that the dog intends to embark on that course of action as soon as an opportunity presents itself.
I don't think one has to be religious to think that the latter is about as morally culpable as actually embarking on the course of action.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alogon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fr Weber:
It's not that adultery is no worse than casual lust; it's that casual lust is as bad as adultery.

---

Why would that be? Does breaking promises and risking the destruction of a relationship or two count for nothing?

The way I see it, Jesus is giving counsels of perfection in this chapter with the implication that we should work on our own imperfections before pointing the finger at others.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
There can be few dominical utterances which have caused more guilt, distress and bewilderment than Matthew 5:27-8 “You have heard that it was said ‘Do not commit adultery’. But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart”.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by BroJames:

quote:

---

Originally posted by George Spigot:

quote:

---

Originally posted by HCH:
It seems to me that the passage tends to trivialize adultery. If adultery is no worse than casual lust, then it's not much of a crime, as common as dirt.

---

I agree. Its like....thinking about murder and actualy commiting a murder. Two VERY different things. A bible verse that claims thinking and doing are as bad as each other makes no sense to me.

---

Taking the passage in its wider context, the point is that righteousness is not fulfilled merely by refraining from murder if your heart is full of the kind of stuff that can lead to murder, nor is it fulfilled by merely refraining from physical adultery if your heart is full of the kind of stuff that goes with adultery.

It is a tough message, and for me the answer is not simply that I must aim for a higher standard (though sometimes I probably should), but that I need to receive the forgiveness (and ultimately, I hope, the perfect wholeness) which comes only as a gift of grace from God.

The "as bad as" discussion is not specially helpful, I think, it's more that both the thought that might (and in some people does) lead to the act is dangerous as well as the act itself. It isn't just as bad to touch a live wire in the home as it is to touch the overhead wire on the railway - but both of them can be fatal.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alogon:
Naif that I am, I would have thought that it makes some difference whether either you or the woman you're lusting about are already married.
If not, where's the adultery?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
Take as an example: 'this dog is thinking about running onto the pitch, stealing the ball, and biting the umpire in the leg'.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Dark musings of skool dog from Down With Skool by Willans and Searle?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
The word 'ogle' is somewhat archaic now...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
I rather hope that most religious people wouldn't confuse a situation in which no harm is done with one in which the course of the game may be altered and the umpire is on his way to hospital courtesy of the local NHS Ambulance Trust.

---

quote:

---

No victim - no worry.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
'Leching'?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bullfrog.:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
'Leching'?

---

Never heard that one. Might be a pond thing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:

This is who I am. And I believe that God made me this way.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
"No harm"? What about the harm we do to ourselves when we entertain these thoughts, particularly our spiritual health? What about the harm we may do to how we regard the opposite sex when we entertain these thoughts?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
Ha ha!

Mind you, I do remember confessing to a priest the usual 'sin' of teenagers and he said something on the lines of if i could pray 'halleluiah' upon climax it was OK.

Put me off my stroke, so to speak.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Like plenty of other women, I have occasionally caught men (by which I mean strangers) ogling me when they think I'm not looking and I Do. Not. Enjoy. It. It's not nice to made into the object of someone's sexual fantasy in that way.

---

Funny, it's never once bothered me*. I wonder if that's because I'm a man, or simply because I actually like the idea of other people finding me sexy enough to fantasise about?

.

*= not that it happens that often, of course
 

---

Posted by goperryrevs (# 13504) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by George Spigot:
So would christians generally say that while a person might see thinking about doing something wrong and doing something wrong as not the same God would see both as sins and therefore just as wrong as each other?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:
I'm sorry for coming back to the beginning of this thread, but I've been thinking a bit about this last evening, especially about some posts that I interpret as "Subconscious feelings are ok, but as soon as they become conscious, you should push them away."

The discussion reminded me of some pieces of research that I read. For example there seems to be a relatively high of occurence of domestic violence in Bangkok. Researchers tried to link this to the particular form of Buddhist culture that exists in Thailand, where strong emotions like anger are a taboo, which can allow these feelings to build up subconsciously, and when they do come out, they come quite aggressively.

Another thing I read was about muggings in Brazil, and the sometimes unpredictable ways in which people react when they have a gun pointed at their head. It turns out that people who are normally quite upfront with their emotions surprisingly manage to keep cool when this happens, whereas people who have a tendency to suppress their emotions can suddenly lose their calm, often with fatal results. This completely agrees with my own experiences.

And I realize that I'm threading dangerous ground here, but at least in the Netherlands the paedophila cases by Catholic priests have been linked to a culture in the 50s and 60s where sexual feelings from these people were unspeakable and supposed to be oppressed. This doesn't excuse them of course, but it does point the way to other forms of socio-psychological accompaniment of these people, which I guess is already starting to happen.

I'm an emotive person. Feelings of joy, anger, fun, frustration, simpathy, sadness ... and yes, also sexual feelings, come to me very easily and often quite energetically. To me, emotional maturity doesn't come by trying to suppress these emotions as soon as they become conscious. I found it to be much better to consciously accept these emotions for a little while for what they are, so that I can control them more easily and they won't overwhelm me.

This is who I am. And I believe that God made me this way.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Like plenty of other women, I have occasionally caught men (by which I mean strangers) ogling me when they think I'm not looking and I Do. Not. Enjoy. It. It's not nice to made into the object of someone's sexual fantasy in that way.

---

Funny, it's never once bothered me*. I wonder if that's because I'm a man, or simply because I actually like the idea of other people finding me sexy enough to fantasise about?

*= not that it happens that often, of course

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bullfrog.:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
'Leching'?

---

Never heard that one. Might be a pond thing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by footwasher:

For example following the vegetarian diet Daniel felt was required of him could have led to megaloblastic anemia, nerve degeneration and irreversible neurological damage stemming from vitamin b12 deficiency .

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:

You have a similar principle involved in extinguishing bad habits. If you want to quit smoking, just sitting around thinking "don't smoke" all day is not going to be helpful. Replacing the bad habit of smoking with different, but enjoyable, habits at the same times/ circumstances when you would normally smoke, increases the effectiveness of your effort.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:

You have a similar principle involved in extinguishing bad habits. If you want to quit smoking, just sitting around thinking "don't smoke" all day is not going to be helpful. Replacing the bad habit of smoking with different, but enjoyable, habits at the same times/ circumstances when you would normally smoke, increases the effectiveness of your effort.

---

As someone who smokes, drinks too much, and is male, I can say from personal evidence that not thinking about cigarettes or alcohol is a lot, lot, lot, easier than not thinking about women and love and sex (*) In fact its quite possible not to think about cigarettes at all. Until this post I hadn't for many hours. Not since I fell asleep last night. I doubt if there has been a waking hour since puberty when I haven't at least briefly thought about women. Even in an exam you briefly check out the students sitting near you.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by footwasher:

For example following the vegetarian diet Daniel felt was required of him could have led to megaloblastic anemia, nerve degeneration and irreversible neurological damage stemming from vitamin b12 deficiency .

---

Bollocks! Vegetarian diets are perfectly healthy for the vast majority of people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Maybe I should elaborate. When I have caught men mentally undressing me, I can tell it's not my personality they're thinking about. They're thinking about their own gratification, and only that (and yes, from the look on the dude's face, I could tell). The reason it's so unpleasant is that's so objectifying - the person isn't thinking about me as a whole person with preferences and desires, just imagining how I could be a means to an end (their own - probably selfish - sexual pleasure). The fact that they don't necessarily mean to go through with this fantasy doesn't make me ok with it.

---

It still doesn't bother me in the least to think that a woman is imagining me purely as a means to the end of her own sexual gratification.

Hell, before I met my wife I'd probably have offered to make that fantasy a reality had I noticed it going on.

The intimidation and fear, yes - I can see that. But the objectification? What's the problem?
 

---

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Yes, I used to get a lot of admiring looks from women, when I was young and comely, and by gum, I liked it! It also made me nervous, I think, but that's partly excitement.

Somebody mentioned checking out women all the time, yes, I can vouch for that. I just went to the supermarket, and I can sense an automatic kind of radar, which scans women, age, beauty, hotness, and so on.

Is it objectifying? I don't know really. If I sense a woman doesn't like it, I look away; if they do like it, I smile.
 

---

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
The difference I suppose could be summed up rather bluntly in one word: penetration.
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 
I used to get a lot of admiring looks from men, when I was young and comely - and I liked it too. I didn't feel in the least threatened. If I liked the look of the admirer then I flirted back.

And in complete double standards - I would hate it if my man 'spanked the monkey' with the picture of someone else in mind. I want him to only have eyes for me.



 

---

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Quite right. Wise men learn not to disclose who they spank off to, or if they are really in a tight spot, then obviously, it's you, my angel, only sweet dreams of you in your M & S nightie.

Hell, who would believe that load of old tripe?
 

---

Posted by jbohn (# 8753) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bullfrog.:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
'Leching'?

---

Never heard that one. Might be a pond thing.

---

Must be. Its a common word here.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by la vie en rouge
When I have caught men mentally undressing me, I can tell it's not my personality they're thinking about. They're thinking about their own gratification, and only that (and yes, from the look on the dude's face, I could tell). The reason it's so unpleasant is that's so objectifying - the person isn't thinking about me as a whole person with preferences and desires, just imagining how I could be a means to an end (their own - probably selfish - sexual pleasure). The fact that they don't necessarily mean to go through with this fantasy doesn't make me ok with it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Maybe I should elaborate. When I have caught men mentally undressing me, I can tell it's not my personality they're thinking about. They're thinking about their own gratification, and only that (and yes, from the look on the dude's face, I could tell). The reason it's so unpleasant is that's so objectifying - the person isn't thinking about me as a whole person with preferences and desires, just imagining how I could be a means to an end (their own - probably selfish - sexual pleasure). The fact that they don't necessarily mean to go through with this fantasy doesn't make me ok with it.

---

It still doesn't bother me in the least to think that a woman is imagining me purely as a means to the end of her own sexual gratification.

Hell, before I met my wife I'd probably have offered to make that fantasy a reality had I noticed it going on.

The intimidation and fear, yes - I can see that. But the objectification? What's the problem?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
Just curious...what if it were a man? Same experience?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Moo:
C. S. Lewis said that when a man says he wants a woman, he doesn't really want a woman. He wants an experience for which a woman is a necessary piece of equipment.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
Just curious...what if it were a man? Same experience?

---

What is your intended conclusion? That a heterosexual woman finds the attention of the opposite sex as unwelcome as a heterosexual man the attention of the same sex?

That's still asymmetric, isn't it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
Also, Marvin implied that he'd welcome the attention because he'd be attracted (assumed) to the ogler. I'm thinking of a situation where one is more leery of the one leering, and changing the genders creates that condition.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
I'm thinking of a situation where one is more leery of the one leering, and changing the genders creates that condition.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Meh. The real elephant in the room (or in this tangent) is rape. If I were certain that the guys whistling at me (who are usually 6 foot 5, 250 pounds and all muscle) were NOT under any circumstances going to take it any further (such as chasing me down the street), I might feel differently about it. But as a 5 foot 6 woman who has been chased in the past, you can bet those looks and whistles are making me uncomfortable.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Meh. The real elephant in the room (or in this tangent) is rape. If I were certain that the guys whistling at me (who are usually 6 foot 5, 250 pounds and all muscle) were NOT under any circumstances going to take it any further (such as chasing me down the street), I might feel differently about it. But as a 5 foot 6 woman who has been chased in the past, you can bet those looks and whistles are making me uncomfortable.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by no_prophet:
Now I'm provoked.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by HughWillRidmee:
Experimental evidence says that telling people not to think about something is counter-productive
Thought suppression

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Meh. The real elephant in the room (or in this tangent) is rape. If I were certain that the guys whistling at me (who are usually 6 foot 5, 250 pounds and all muscle) were NOT under any circumstances going to take it any further (such as chasing me down the street), I might feel differently about it. But as a 5 foot 6 woman who has been chased in the past, you can bet those looks and whistles are making me uncomfortable.

---

I think this must be a thing you either get or don't get. When I was a teen I remember my Dad once saying to me, during a discussion on responding to aggression, dealing with revenge and so on, what he would do to anyone who ever hurt or raped my mum or me. My father's 'response', he said, would involve a very large sharp knife.

So imagine my surprize and confusion when a short while later I was complaining to my Mum about a creepy shit of a guy on the bus, feeling me up, on my way home from school; and my Dad pulled a 'what's your problem?' face and said, 'but I thought you girls liked to get that sort of attention! Isn't it flattering?'
 

---

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 

quote:

---

footwasher: What's to stop Him from making you a new creation?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
Just curious...what if it were a man? Same experience?

---

quote:

---

footwasher: When in Rome do as the Romans do, when in Africa, stay on the correct side of the road, when in the Kingdom, learn the Kingdom rules.

---

quote:

---

footwasher: That way you don't get sat on by a rhino...

---

I'm not really afraid of that. The hippo's are the nasty ones.

Like Marvin, I've recieved attention from gay men a couple of times. Although it was a bit weird when it happened the first time, it didn't frighten me. But it was in a non-aggressive way, so maybe that's the reason.
 

---

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
IngoB, you're being clueless. The men I mentioned were construction workers (got it now?) and the man who chased me was certainly well over six feet and sized to match. I don't know your physical characteristics, but to a woman of my size, that spells You.will.not.get.out.of.this. Unless I take to carrying a gun. But that's another thread.

I've found to my dismay that most men I talk to, including my own relatives, simply Don't Get what it means to spend your life feeling physically intimidated, simply because of gender and size. To automatically look for a lightpost to park your car under. To automatically wait for another person to leave class, so you don't have to walk across an empty campus alone (as I did last night). To habitually carry your keys pointy end outward in case you have to use them on some asshole who accosts you in the parking lot.
Every woman I've spoken to has simply nodded her head and moved on (since caution is forced upon our gender by the world we live in from puberty forward). The men vary between calling us overreacting idiots who imagine things, or feeling honest outrage as they discover that half the human race lives in a hostile environment so pervasive that they rarely even comment on it anymore, and defensive walking/parking/planning is second nature.

If I could, I would change gender to male every time I stepped out of my car to cross a parking lot, every time I went for a walk, every time I had to be in a mostly empty building. Not because I want to be a man, but because it would be a glorious relief not to be habitually afraid.
 

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Posted by Mary LA (# 17040) on :
 
Lamb Chopped out here in South Africa we call what you describe a rape culture. It means that compliments or admiring glances can't be taken at face value as harmless or flattering because it is too dangerous to assume you are safe in a public place or even with men you know in the workplace or in church or an AA meeting or in the local supermarket. Or in your own home.

I was in a small shopping centre the other day and a woman who works in the supermarket was sneaking out for a smoke when one of the male security guards called to her,'Watch out sis, if we don't know where you are, you could get raped.'

She shouted back,' Raped again? How many times do you think we've been raped when we were doing all the right things to stay safe?'

Which is the kind of paradox many of us live with.


Rape Culture 101
 

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Posted by no_prophet (# 15560) on :
 
IngoB, my response has everything to do with this. Lamb Chopped has provided the information you require. I hope you now understand. I know about this in about the most horrible way.
 

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Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :
 
I think it's also worth saying that rape is on the extreme end of a whole spectrum of unwanted sexual attention that many women routinely put up with. I have, mercifully, never been raped, but I *have* been on the receiving end of other kinds of behaviour, such as having my chest/legs groped by strangers on public transport without my consent. It's upsetting and violating. This no doubt ties into why I dislike being leered at. I dislike people thinking they have selfish rights over my body, even when it's only in their head.

Back to OP, I remember reading somewhere the idea that Jesus is talking about indulging thoughts on the kind of behaviour we would engage in if it was without consequences and/or we thought we could get away with it. Maybe the person leering at me thinking 'I wouldn't mind giving her one' doesn't have any serious intentions of going any further, but would they if they could get away with it consequence-free? And for some (not all) men, whether or not I would enjoy the experience is not at the front of their mind.
 

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Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :
 
Just butting in to say Lamb Chopped, I'm with you every step of the way (I'm 5' 3" btw). Now I'm old(er) it doesn't happen so often, but I can identify with most of your post, though instead of keys I used to swing an umbrella... I always tried to walk tall(!) and not look like a victim. But you're right, most men just don't get it.
 

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Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 
I'm not entirely sure why we are suddenly discussing (the fear of) rape. I'll repeat my suggestion from above: "At any rate, I guess we simply have to ask whether women enjoy the sexual attention of men as much as vice versa if they judge the situation to be safe for themselves." This would get us back to the topic of lust, rather than violence.

On the topic of the danger of rape as "street crime", one should keep in mind that only 8% of rapes are by a stranger. Furthermore, the group of people endangered most by violent crime are young men: "The risk of being a victim of violent crime in the 2008/09 BCS was 3.2 per cent. Men (4.4%) were twice as likely as women (2.1%) to have experienced violence in the year prior to interview. The risk for men aged 16 to 24 was highest at 13.2 per cent." The statistics are like that pretty much everywhere in the developed world.

Clearly there's a bit of a chicken and egg problem there, i.e., perhaps women are less in danger than men to be attacked in the street because they are already behaving in a manner that maximizes their safety. Nevertheless, it is simplistic to assume that their greater physical vulnerability makes them a more prominent target. (I, like pretty much all men I know, did experience several violent attacks during my youth, typically from groups of other young men. That was considered totally "normal", really - at least as long as any injuries sustained remained within limits.) And by far the greatest danger to women concerning rape and sexual assault remains their partner.
 

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Posted by no_prophet (# 15560) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
I'm not entirely sure why we are suddenly discussing (the fear of) rape. I'll repeat my suggestion from above: "At any rate, I guess we simply have to ask whether women enjoy the sexual attention of men as much as vice versa if they judge the situation to be safe for themselves." This would get us back to the topic of lust, rather than violence.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Maybe the person leering at me thinking 'I wouldn't mind giving her one' doesn't have any serious intentions of going any further, but would they if they could get away with it consequence-free?

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quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:
I somewhat doubt that the guys whistling at you are usually "6 foot 5, 250 pounds and all muscle". But I'll ask my hourglass-shaped cheerleaders about their experiences when they return from their suppleness training to give me my daily Thai massage.

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quote:

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At any rate, I guess we simply have to ask whether women enjoy the sexual attention of men as much as vice versa if they judge the situation to be safe for themselves.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I don't think all women get this either, as I have often talked about it with my wife, who walks home from work late at night quite often (in London). She doesn't worry about it at all, and doesn't imagine that men are about to attack her.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

If I could, I would change gender to male every time I stepped out of my car to cross a parking lot, every time I went for a walk, every time I had to be in a mostly empty building. Not because I want to be a man, but because it would be a glorious relief not to be habitually afraid.

---

I wouldn't necessarily do this on every occasion, but I do think that safety would be one of the principle reasons why any woman would change gender (which is the topic of another thread, of course.)

I don't think many men realise that quite a high percentage of women have experienced a sexual assault of some kind. Many women will have been propositioned by complete strangers (and I'm not even talking about someone you've danced with in a nightclub). It doesn't even matter what you look like, or how you dress - I've never been a 'girly' woman, yet it's happened to me.

How does that sort of thing start?

Certainly, from a woman's point of view, Jesus' exhortation is no bad thing. But he did say a few way-out things that noone really takes seriously....
 

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Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :
 
I feel like I’m not explaining very well… Maybe the problem is that I’m trying to explain this to decent men, when the people who engage in this kind of behaviour are not decent men? I’m not trying to imply that all men would be rapists if they could get away with it. But there are definitely *some* men who do think, to a greater or lesser extent, that women are fair game for their own sexual proclivities, no matter how the women in question may feel. Like the sleazy dude who groped my breasts on the metro. Did I want or consent to him touching me? No. Did he care? Not at all.*

As I said before, I really think there is a spectrum of unwanted sexual attention, and I’m certainly not suggesting that it’s all of equal seriousness. If rape is a 10, then groping me on the metro is maybe about a 2. It’s nasty, but it doesn’t come close on the scale of seriousness. Engaging in a protracted fantasy (- which is definitely what I have caught people doing, not a momentary look) without my consent is a very minor infraction of the same kind, ISTM. On the scale, it’s like a 0.1 or something, compared to rape, but I would rather do without it if I could. And when the person is bigger and stronger than you, it feels more threatening than that.

*Although FWIW, my reaction to this kind of behaviour is to make a Bloody. Great. Scene. Anyone who behaves like that, can expect me to make sure the whole carriage is aware of it and looks round to see what the commotion is and finds out what a sleazy dog they are. So maybe it does have consequences after all.
 

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Posted by IngoB (# 8700) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by RuthW:
Lamb Chopped is too nice to point it out, and perhaps even to notice it, but I'm not. Suggesting that Lamp Chopped was merely fantasizing about sexual attention from attractive men is contemptible.

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quote:

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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I don't think many men realise that quite a high percentage of women have experienced a sexual assault of some kind. Many women will have been propositioned by complete strangers (and I'm not even talking about someone you've danced with in a nightclub).

---

quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:
And I don't think many women realise that an even higher percentage of men have experienced a violent assault of some kind. From the age of 12 to the age of 22, I recall being attacked with physical violence (punches, kicks, etc.) at least 5 times (off the top of my head), always by superior force (by virtue of age or strength in numbers).

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quote:

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Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
I feel like I’m not explaining very well… Maybe the problem is that I’m trying to explain this to decent men, when the people who engage in this kind of behaviour are not decent men? I’m not trying to imply that all men would be rapists if they could get away with it. But there are definitely *some* men who do think, to a greater or lesser extent, that women are fair game for their own sexual proclivities, no matter how the women in question may feel. Like the sleazy dude who groped my breasts on the metro. Did I want or consent to him touching me? No. Did he care? Not at all.*

As I said before, I really think there is a spectrum of unwanted sexual attention, and I’m certainly not suggesting that it’s all of equal seriousness. If rape is a 10, then groping me on the metro is maybe about a 2. It’s nasty, but it doesn’t come close on the scale of seriousness. Engaging in a protracted fantasy (- which is definitely what I have caught people doing, not a momentary look) without my consent is a very minor infraction of the same kind, ISTM. On the scale, it’s like a 0.1 or something, compared to rape, but I would rather do without it if I could. And when the person is bigger and stronger than you, it feels more threatening than that.

*Although FWIW, my reaction to this kind of behaviour is to make a Bloody. Great. Scene. Anyone who behaves like that, can expect me to make sure the whole carriage is aware of it and looks round to see what the commotion is and finds out what a sleazy dog they are. So maybe it does have consequences after all.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:
On the topic of the danger of rape as "street crime", one should keep in mind that only 8% of rapes are by a stranger.

<snip>

And by far the greatest danger to women concerning rape and sexual assault remains their partner.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:
And I don't think many women realise that an even higher percentage of men have experienced a violent assault of some kind.

<snip>

And I'm not saying this to diminish the threats that women face.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I don't think all women get this either, as I have often talked about it with my wife, who walks home from work late at night quite often (in London). She doesn't worry about it at all, and doesn't imagine that men are about to attack her.

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quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
No problem, I just have a different understanding of what the Kingdom's rules might be

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quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB
And I'm not saying this to diminish the threats that women face. I'm not even saying that this amounts to the same experience, since frankly I have no "experiential measure" for rape vs. being beaten. I'm merely pointing out that few men will be quite as clueless about "feeling vulnerable" as some women here seem to think. Most men will know from experience what it feels like to be under physical threat, even though not under a sexual one.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Crœsos:
This seems a bit dishonest of you, IngoB, considering that you don't believe sexual assault between married partners to actually be rape.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Crœsos:
Glad you say you're not trying to diminish anything, because that's what usually usually happens when someone starts playing Oppression Olympics in discussions like this.

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quote:

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Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
I feel like I’m not explaining very well… Maybe the problem is that I’m trying to explain this to decent men, when the people who engage in this kind of behaviour are not decent men? I’m not trying to imply that all men would be rapists if they could get away with it. But there are definitely *some* men who do think, to a greater or lesser extent, that women are fair game for their own sexual proclivities, no matter how the women in question may feel. Like the sleazy dude who groped my breasts on the metro. Did I want or consent to him touching me? No. Did he care? Not at all.*

---

Maybe that's it. Our male posters here are such decent fellas!

By the time I was 19, I had been groped on a bus, in my school uniform, had the usual suggestive comments addressed my way when just out and about, had to fend off my school/work experience supervisor (he honestly couldn't understand why I wasn't grateful for his feeling me up); and thereafter in all three places of work I occupied, in the four years that followed leaving school, spent more than a little time evading invitations to adventures behind the filing cabinets (sometimes by having to physically repel the guy) and in stationery cupboards, by leching married men.

Now I wasn't pig-ugly, but I wasn't Marilyn Monroe either, and I was only one of many of my fellow ladies who 'enjoyed' the attentions of men who not only liked to look but make suggestions and/or cop a feel. Of course, in those days, this was normal, and you took it in your stride.

But the point is this; once you realize by the age of twenty that men who like to pay you the compliment of a lingering pervy look might quite realistically turn into someone who thinks he can give himself permission to take it further, you don't start to feel so flattered.

In abstract a decent man giving a gal the appreciative once over might be fine - but it's not the decent ones a woman worries about, and human beings of neither sex come labelled with 'decent' or 'watch out' written on them!

And JFTR whenever a woman does decide that male-kind are mostly harmless and there's nothing wrong with a bit of flirty attention, if it turns out he's not so harmless after all, it's often the woman who gets the blame for 'leading him on', or for being 'stupid' enough to walk around the town late at night, by herself, or go to a club etc.
 

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Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :
 
La Vie and Anselmina -

There was an interesting thing on (I think) Radio 4 woman's hour a while back ( ) talking about the difference between male-female relations 'out and about' in France, and England.

The (English) women on the program were complaining that in France there seemed to be a happy round of consequence-free, ego-building flirting going on between men and women strangers in the street - but that they felt ignored / shunned by males in the UK.

This seems, to put it mildly, to run counter to the feel (ahem) of this thread. Do you think they'd just got a bit rose-tinted in their views brought back from holidays? Is the fear of *too much* attention what would concentrate a woman's mind on appearing cold to strangers, in a UK / Irish context? (That's how it feels to me as a man...but hey, it might just be my two heads). Is it actually the same in France, or is the feel of things different?
 

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Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 
It would seem there is a dividing line between:

quote:

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Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
a happy round of consequence-free, ego-building flirting going on between men and women strangers in the street

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quote:

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Originally posted by Anselmina:

By the time I was 19, I had been groped on a bus, in my school uniform, had the usual suggestive comments addressed my way when just out and about, had to fend off my school/work experience supervisor (he honestly couldn't understand why I wasn't grateful for his feeling me up); and thereafter in all three places of work I occupied, in the four years that followed leaving school, spent more than a little time evading invitations to adventures behind the filing cabinets (sometimes by having to physically repel the guy) and in stationery cupboards, by leching married men.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
La Vie and Anselmina -

There was an interesting thing on (I think) Radio 4 woman's hour a while back ( ) talking about the difference between male-female relations 'out and about' in France, and England.

The (English) women on the program were complaining that in France there seemed to be a happy round of consequence-free, ego-building flirting going on between men and women strangers in the street - but that they felt ignored / shunned by males in the UK.

This seems, to put it mildly, to run counter to the feel (ahem) of this thread. Do you think they'd just got a bit rose-tinted in their views brought back from holidays? Is the fear of *too much* attention what would concentrate a woman's mind on appearing cold to strangers, in a UK / Irish context? (That's how it feels to me as a man...but hey, it might just be my two heads). Is it actually the same in France, or is the feel of things different?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
I remain interested to know if such a thing were the figment of some romantic Englishwomen's imagination, or if the French somehow handle this thing better.


MinM

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Well, when you find out, let us know!
 

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Posted by RuthW (# 13) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:
Another day, another nasty spin.

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quote:

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Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
Cliffdweller -

I thought that much was obvious - at least to all here.

I was just interested to hear (on that radio prog) that apparently in another culture, an innocent (in terms of outcome) but sophisticated (in terms of level of mutual understanding, trust, even wit etc) flirtation might occur between men and women on the street - something which sounded very unlikely, and perhaps even dangerous for a woman, in a UK context.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Moo:
If I had to choose between being raped and being so severely beaten that I had to spend the rest of my life in a wheelchair, I would prefer the beating.

Moo

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quote:

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Originally posted by Jahlove:

quote:

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Originally posted by Moo:
If I had to choose between being raped and being so severely beaten that I had to spend the rest of my life in a wheelchair, I would prefer the beating.

Moo

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This is almost on a par with the idea that rape is a Fate Worse Than Death - with its undertones of *if you don't fight to the death, it isn't rape*. Rape, bad as it may be, CAN actually be moved past with good counselling. The lost use of bodily functions through serious beating, can't.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Moo:
If I had to choose between being raped and being so severely beaten that I had to spend the rest of my life in a wheelchair, I would prefer the beating.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Anselmina:

Is it possible to tell the difference between 'consequence-free, ego-building flirting' in some circumstances, from unwanted potentially unpleasant attention in others?

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quote:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
Although one also has to wonder about the accuracy of the Radio 4 account.[/URL]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Chorister:

quote:

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Originally posted by Moo:
If I had to choose between being raped and being so severely beaten that I had to spend the rest of my life in a wheelchair, I would prefer the beating.

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From what I understand, women don't always get to choose - the severe beating is part of the rape and the rape is part of the severe beating.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ken:

quote:

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Originally posted by Anselmina:

Is it possible to tell the difference between 'consequence-free, ego-building flirting' in some circumstances, from unwanted potentially unpleasant attention in others?

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Of course it isn't. An abusive interaction between two people and a pleasantly flirtatious one between two different people might appear identical to a third party observer.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Moo:

quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB
And I'm not saying this to diminish the threats that women face. I'm not even saying that this amounts to the same experience, since frankly I have no "experiential measure" for rape vs. being beaten. I'm merely pointing out that few men will be quite as clueless about "feeling vulnerable" as some women here seem to think. Most men will know from experience what it feels like to be under physical threat, even though not under a sexual one.

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If I had to choose between being raped and being so severely beaten that I had to spend the rest of my life in a wheelchair, I would prefer the beating.

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quote:

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I heard it on the radio myself

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I'll not tell on you if you don't tell on me

quote:

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Also if they really want to have more flirting in their lives, why don't they start it? Do they really think they can only talk to men if the men speak first? People aren't mind readers.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Moo:
All right, you think my preference is perverse.

Moo

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quote:

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Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
... we're left with what we know, I guess: estranged genders, where a woman's safety is best served by an expectation of appalling, criminal and immoral behaviour on the part of men in general.

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Oh dear, don't want you to take it THAT way. It isn't an expectation of men in general--I quite like men, I find them fascinating --

What it is, is rather an expectation that there will be one bad apple in any thousand or so of men in general--and my luck being what it is, I will certainly run into him. AND I won't recognize him for what he is until it's too late. So we take evasive action in all situations as a matter of course.

Guys, if you'd only invent forehead meters that would indicate whether you're decent or dangerous assholes (and the meters could be trusted), we'd happily flirt with the decent folks to your hearts' content.
 

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Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :
 
Sorry, coming to this late – but on the situation in France…

Cliffdweller is right that one of the things that the DSK affair shone a light on, which many people would have preferred to ignore, is that women in France routinely put up with a lot of (usually) low-level sexual harassment. We get hit on All. The. Time. Twice in the past week strangers have addressed me as “poupée” (doll), which is at least new… As far as it’s possible for me to be able to tell this about myself, I am in the attractive upper percentile of the population (I hope this doesn’t sound arrogant, it’s based on what other people have told me), I don’t know if that makes any difference. The way I dress doesn’t make any difference – I have gone out in a short dress and got no trouble, or been bothered hugely when I was wearing jeans and t-shirt.

How much do women enjoy this? Depends a lot on the individual woman, I guess. I’m not a big fan, and there’s certainly situations where it feels pretty threatening because certain men refuse to take no for an answer if you refuse their advances (these days my answer to the “why not” question is usually something along the lines of “because I’m way out of your league”. It’s the only one I’ve found that works). It can also be a right intimidating bugger on a metro train late at night when you’re still half a dozen stops from home, I have even have had a scary dude who’d I been telling to leave me alone for fifteen minutes get off the tram at the same stop as me and try to follow me to my door. To get rid of him I had to threaten to phone the police.

Some women probably don’t mind getting hit on, but the trouble is, I think, that you are *expected* to allow men to hit on you. If a man keeps on hitting on me after I’ve asked him politely to leave me alone, often he will act like I’m the one being rude by telling him to stop, something along the lines of “you should be flattered”. This is what I mean about thinking women are fair game. This kind of man acts like he is such hot stuff that he can expect to get what he wants from any woman he takes an interest in. Because getting hit on in this way is so common, I for one am very wary of strangers taking a sexual interest in me. The respect dynamic is not in my favour.

Incidentally I have learned recently (I have been elected to the Works Council at my job) that French sexual harassment laws are deplorable. For example, in one case,* a guy was massaging his assistant’s back and feet (he claimed consent, but with the power dynamics being what they are, she wasn’t really in a position to say no). This was not considered to be sexual harassment under current laws. It is expected that François Hollande is going to review/change this law.

*just to be clear, not where I work – this was information from the “how to be on the Works Council” training course
 

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Posted by Huia (# 3473) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
For me it comes down to where I want my damage--mostly on the body or mostly on the psyche. All things considered, I think I'll take the body. (I've had enough of the psyche, thank you. Is anybody else frustrated with the fact that psychological wounds are invisible, and therefore a lot of people treat them as if they didn't matter?)

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quote:

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la vie en rouge: If rape is a 10, then groping me on the metro is maybe about a 2.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ken:
I've come across a few men ho would even avoid driving in the streets round our way, which really is absurd - I suspect some racism there, maybe they simply thought of all black people as potential attackers, and couldn't emotionally handle driving past hundreds of them

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quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

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la vie en rouge: If rape is a 10, then groping me on the metro is maybe about a 2.

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I'm actually a bit surprised by this. Groping a woman's breasts on the underground would be at least an 8 on my scale, and probably liable to criminal persecution.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eliab:
I suspect that most, but not all, men would feel like I did, and that many more women (but far from all of them) would experience similarly intimate touching as an attack.

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quote:

---

I don't think that this means that I (or men generally) inevitably don't get what other people object to when on the receiving end of lechery.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mary LA:
It is about the gaze as control and privilege, the right to look at women as bodies and objects of sexual fantasy.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ken:

Which all fits in with ideas of gaze as a kind of social or political control as well, but that's a different topic - though come to think of it one that's right on topic for this thread. The whole history of art and cinema and drama of men as those who look at women, so women are treated as the the bearers of meaning rather than the makers of meaning, objects to be interpreted by men rather than actors that interpret themselves and effect things in the world. Its not just that men have tended to paint pictures of beautiful women, or make fphotographs or films of them, and then look at them for pleasure, its that even in the most apparently non-pornographic art and film there has been a tendency (a tendency, not a rule) to portray men gazing at women rather than the other way round.

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quote:

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Originally posted by ken:
Far from all? Not think being groped by a strange man on a train is an attack? Really?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
OK, question. If it's racist to assume and/or act as if all black people are potential attackers (which I agree it is), is it not sexist to assume and/or act as if all men are potential rapists?

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Eliab:
I was once ‘groped' on the train by a young woman putting her hand on my inner thigh. I was (and remain) married, and certainly experienced the contact as unwelcome, but I did not feel especially violated by it, nor did it make me at all angry or upset. As far as I was concerned, it was a mistake which I expected would embarrass her more than it would me once my non-interest became apparent. (Her stated reason for the approach was that she had thought I'd been looking at her with desire. Which was not the case as (1) I don't, as a rule, do that; and (2) I was engrossed in an Iain Banks novel at the time, and not focussing on any other passengers. But I think she was honestly mistaken in that rather than making it up. I think that she did genuinely expect me to be flattered and aroused).

I would never have considered calling the police, or treating the incident in any way as an assault, although strictly in law that's exactly what it was.

Part of that, but only part, is that I didn't feel physically intimidated. Although I'm not exactly a physically impressive specimen, the possibility of her persisting in touching once my non-consent was clear was not one I ever contemplated. Without that, the experience was unwelcome and awkward, but not felt as a violation.

I suspect that most, but not all, men would feel like I did, and that many more women (but far from all of them) would experience similarly intimate touching as an attack. I don't think that this means that I (or men generally) inevitably don't get what other people object to when on the receiving end of lechery. For me the moral point is that because one simply does not know how such an approach will be experienced, contact of this sort is unacceptable, but I don't think it makes much sense to say either that I ought to have been more resentful than I was, or that someone in a similar situation and experiencing it as traumatic ought to be more sanguine. People are different, and they all are entitled to respect.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Moo:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by la vie en rouge
C. S. Lewis said that when a man says he wants a woman, he doesn't really want a woman. He wants an experience for which a woman is a necessary piece of equipment

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quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
I've come across a few men ho would even avoid driving in the streets round our way, which really is absurd - I suspect some racism there, maybe they simply thought of all black people as potential attackers, and couldn't emotionally handle driving past hundreds of them

---

OK, question. If it's racist to assume and/or act as if all black people are potential attackers (which I agree it is), is it not sexist to assume and/or act as if all men are potential rapists?

To illustrate the point I'm making, consider whether the statement "What it is, is rather an expectation that there will be one bad apple in any thousand or so black people in general--and my luck being what it is, I will certainly run into him. AND I won't recognize him for what he is until it's too late. So I take evasive action in all situations as a matter of course" would be deemed an acceptable comment on race relations.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Trickydicky:
And then you get eejits like Nancy Del O'lio and Kathleen Turner(?) who have said that, when they walk into a room and a man *does n't* look at them, he must be gay. Not helpful.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by George Spigot:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Moo:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by la vie en rouge
C. S. Lewis said that when a man says he wants a woman, he doesn't really want a woman. He wants an experience for which a woman is a necessary piece of equipment

---

Yeah well he also wrote "That hidious strength". So I wouldnt pay to much attention to him.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:

LC - we might imagine the forehead-device looking like a cross between a penis and one of those big 'thermometers' which churches used to use to advertise their progress on the roof fund. How-much-of-a-dick-head-am-I kind of thing. As an engineer, one of the most fascinating aspects would be to establish the S.I. unit of dickheadedness as a precursor to instrument calibration - though expressed as a dick-head correlation coefficient it might be dimensionless.

---

 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
To put the Lewis quote in context--he was speaking of trolling assholes out in public--non-decent lustful men looking for meat--emphatically NOT of every man looking at a woman. These predators are the ones "who don't want a woman, they want a pleasure for which a woman is a necessary [but unregarded] piece of equipment."
 

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Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :
 
LC - go careful now - a lady laughing at a man's jokes can be misconstrued...

[ 15. May 2012, 13:29: Message edited by: mark_in_manchester ]
 

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Posted by ken (# 2460) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by George Spigot:
Yeah well he also wrote "That hidious strength".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
LC - go careful now - a lady laughing at a man's jokes can be misconstrued...

---

I have every faith in your decency.
 

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Posted by Steve H (# 17102) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Freddy:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
For this and other reasons (eg its heterosexuality) a liberal view of the Bible will dismiss or ignore this pericope, but for anyone trying to take the warning seriously, there appear to be a number of options.

---

Really? As a liberal in terms of scripture, I take it very seriously and don't in the least dismiss it. I'm not sure why any liberal would?

---

Could this be a gender difference?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

quote:

---

Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
LC - go careful now - a lady laughing at a man's jokes can be misconstrued...

---

I have every faith in your decency.

---

quote:

---

'What a strange thread to start flirting on'

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
Can a man show an interest in a woman/look at her etc without the assumption that he's got sex on his mind?

---

quote:

---

Boogie: Can a man have a joke with a woman without it being seen as flirting?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
I was once groped by a drunk woman at a party (she made a grab for my crown jewels) and found it embarrassing and annoying but not scary. Contrast that to my stag night, when I was stripped down to my boxer shorts by my wonderful male 'friends' and some drunken girls tried to pull them down (fortunately they didn't succeed): I found that far more scary because I feared the humiliation of being naked in public.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

quote:

---

Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:
LC - go careful now - a lady laughing at a man's jokes can be misconstrued...

---

I have every faith in your decency.

---

You see - the difficulty lies in words too. My first reaction to M in M's words here were 'What a strange thread to start flirting on'. I'm sure neither are flirting - but it can easily look that way from the outside.

Can a man have a joke with a woman without it being seen as flirting?

Can a man show an interest in a woman/look at her etc without the assumption that he's got sex on his mind?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eliab:
Although if I were a betting man, I'd be prepared to wager that:

a. You neither reported this incident to the police nor considered doing so;

b. No one who was aware of the incident suggested to you that you should report it;

c. No matter how unpleasant the experience, or how deep your disapproval of the girls' conduct, you would not want them to be criminalised for it;

d. If the genders of the participants had been reversed, none of that would be true.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
why do I feel, as a woman, that if I starting loudly saying on the tube "Get your hands off me!" I am the one who is made a fool of, whereas if I witnessed a man doing that, I would not think him a fool.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:


Can a man show an interest in a woman/look at her etc without the assumption that he's got sex on his mind?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by no_prophet:
I have taken this somewhat out context, but your point (d) is particularly uninformed.

---

quote:

---

Some men have the "never pass up an opportunity" mentality, and may want to view sexual aggression by women as positive, even when it's not psychologically.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Moo:
In reply to Bartolomeo, I would say that the situations are entirely different. A performer is selling others the opportunity to see him/her perform erotically. It is understood that she has sold the opportunity to look, not to take any kind of action. It is an unspoken contract. The performer is in charge of the situation.

Someone who leers suggestively on the subway has not paid for anything, and the person being ogled does not know what limits, if any, there are to the ogler's behavior. The person being ogled is not in charge of the situation.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Bartolomeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Moo:
In reply to Bartolomeo, I would say that the situations are entirely different. A performer is selling others the opportunity to see him/her perform erotically. It is understood that she has sold the opportunity to look, not to take any kind of action. It is an unspoken contract. The performer is in charge of the situation.

Someone who leers suggestively on the subway has not paid for anything, and the person being ogled does not know what limits, if any, there are to the ogler's behavior. The person being ogled is not in charge of the situation.

---

Not necessarily. There isn't a clear line between erotic and non-erotic performance, or for that matter between performance and real life. And people don't always respect the unspoken contract, any more than they respect the unspoken societal expectations on the subway.

By way of example, a ladyfriend and I were selling raffle tickets at a charity event one night. She was wearing a low-cut evening dress and I was wearing a tuxedo. We're both younger than most of the patrons, and had a bet between us as to who could sell more tickets (I won, probably because most of the patrons were female). Were we contracted erotic performers? We didn't think so -- we were just having fun.

Being a performer doesn't put us in control of the situation. There are still drunks and jerks who try to push things too far, usually men taking advantage of female performers but not always.

I have a friend who used to do "singing telegrams" in a revealing costume while in college. That was a particularly problematic gig with regard to people ignoring limits.

I understand that most women (and men) don't want to be ogled. Their wishes should be respected. My point is just that it isn't universal.

---

quote:

---

If I'm out working somewhere, or having a tea-break in the van

---

kaaaoooooga!

Man plus van plus lustful-looks-thread alert!




Sorry rolyn. I thought I'd typecast you as a joke before anyone else did.
 

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Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
But is it a white van, with a copy of the Sun shoved in windscreen? Alert, alert.
 

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Posted by Bullfrog. (# 11014) on :
 
Hmm. Was Jesus really trying to establish a universal doctrine of sexual ethics? Or trying to tell people who to be holier than the norm?

Certainly, as a sometimes-stoic, I can see the the benefits of not being manipulated into shelling out money to stare at someone who is strategically not wearing much clothing. I probably have more productive uses of my time.
 

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Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 
Or was he being sarcastic towards holier-than-thou people?
 

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Posted by footwasher (# 15599) on :
 
All indications (John's moral requirement for those seeking his baptism, Jesus's Sermon on the Mount) point to a raising of the bar. Torah was toned down so that Israel would not use it as a club (Moses allowed the softening because of Israel's hardness of heart, seen in society's illtreatment of women).

The Way opened the way for what the Law was meant to be from the beginning:

Luke 18:27 NET
He replied, “What is impossible for mere humans is possible for God.”
 

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Posted by George Spigot (# 253) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by George Spigot:
Yeah well he also wrote "That hidious strength".

---

His best novel! And he spelled the title right.

---

Best novel? Really! It's even worse than The last battle.
 

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Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
I read it when I was about 7. I just remember this horrid scene quite early on involving a guillotine...
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 

quote:

---

footwasher: All indications (John's moral requirement for those seeking his baptism, Jesus's Sermon on the Mount) point to a raising of the bar.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

---

footwasher: All indications (John's moral requirement for those seeking his baptism, Jesus's Sermon on the Mount) point to a raising of the bar.

---

Maybe not as much a raising of the bar, but more an interiorization of the Law. Jesus' position seems to be: "The (Jewish) Law is ok, but it isn't about showing externally that you're keeping the Law. It's about what you feel inside. Especially if your actions affect other people."

He used some rhetorical tricks to get this point across, like humour and hyperbole. The formulation "and whoever says ‘Fool’" is already a clear indication that He's exaggerating a bit.

---

quote:

---

footwasher: IOW, it wasn't about getting brownie points. It was about manifesting God.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

---

footwasher: IOW, it wasn't about getting brownie points. It was about manifesting God.

---

I guess we agree here.

In my view, Jesus's point is: "You shouldn't cheat on your wife. Not only because the Law says so, but because you feel inside that you don't want to. And you certainly shouldn't brag about how well you are keeping the Jewish Law if you don't feel this." Yes, I can see that living like this shows a bit of God.

To me, this is the point that Jesus is making in Matthew 5.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

---

footwasher: All indications (John's moral requirement for those seeking his baptism, Jesus's Sermon on the Mount) point to a raising of the bar.

---

Maybe not as much a raising of the bar, but more an interiorization of the Law. Jesus' position seems to be: "The (Jewish) Law is ok, but it isn't about showing externally that you're keeping the Law. It's about what you feel inside. Especially if your actions affect other people."

He used some rhetorical tricks to get this point across, like humour and hyperbole. The formulation "and whoever says ‘Fool’" is already a clear indication that He's exaggerating a bit.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by mark_in_manchester:

Man plus van plus lustful-looks-thread alert!



Sorry rolyn. I thought I'd typecast you as a joke before anyone else did.

---

No worries M in M

The unspoken, invisible rapport between a man and a woman is quite humorous really . All humour evaporates of course when one considers the darker possibilities.

These days women folk can seem genuinely wary of a bearded bloke pulling tombstones up church paths . In the past I've encountered older, well-Churched ladies who have have offered to help .

BTW I don't have a copy of the Sun on the dash-board but a Good News Bible behind the passenger seat . Makes me even more of a liability maybe ?

 

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Posted by Leaf (# 14169) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:

<snip> That the problem of adultery begins not with a feeling or an instinctive attraction but with an attitude-- a nurtured belief that some subset of people exist for my gratification, rather than an attitude that honors each person as a child of God.
With a few exceptions, I'm less inclined to say that Jesus is engaging in hyperbole. I think that's a device we use to distance ourselves from the hard teachings, to help us avoid the clear implications of the challenge he is placing before us.

---

Agreed.

When a woman is visually and verbally cut into constituent parts, it dishonours God's shalom, the wholeness of her being. Most often what gets "cut off" is her head - a symbol of cutting off and disregarding her personality, her thoughts and knowledge and experience, her face as a social presence, her cross-sign if baptized.

Girls and women are encouraged to cut themselves up in theory, in order to become anxious about their constituent parts. ("Is my X too Y?") Capitalism profits by their anxiety, selling "remedies".

Jesus encouraged women to see themselves as more than a collection of parts.

[ 17. May 2012, 21:46: Message edited by: Leaf ]
 

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Posted by footwasher (# 15599) on :
 
Too right. Con evos are sometimes regarded as hard hearted , unfeeling, insulated, inexperienced, law mongers (as opposed to bleeding heart liberals?! ), with few, if any, social graces. People think they are able to take on all the hyperbole, hard teachings because of cherrypicking areas of their lives that are compliant with teachings, areas where their resistance is high. Not true. Success is not because of self, but because of dependence on God:

Romans 9:32 NET
Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but (as if it were possible) by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,

In taking in ALL the counsel of God, hyperbole and hard teaching included, it is possible to glimpse the wonderful, comprehensive innerworkings of His plan. And be exposed to the great love behind it all.

God loves ALL of Creation. He is its Creator and has "vested" interests in it:

Jonah 4:10-11 NET
The Lord said, “You were upset about this little plant, something for which you have not worked nor did you do anything to make it grow. It grew up overnight and died the next day. Should I not be even more concerned about Nineveh, this enormous city? There are more than one hundred twenty thousand people in it who do not know right from wrong, as well as many animals!”


He builds up a relationship with His Creation. The owner of the coin has a sentimental attachment to the lost unit. Maybe it was the coin that was used to stake out her first business! She knows every nick and scratch on its face. She probably blows up more on the party than what it's face value is:

Luke 15:8-9 NET
“Or what woman, if she has ten silver coins and loses one of them, does not light a lamp, sweep the house, and search thoroughly until she finds it? Then when she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin that I had lost.’

All this love is embodied in Jesus.

He came to heal the sick. He saw them as lost sheep, children whom God lost sleep over, scanned the horizon incessantly for, ran with robe gathered up to, covered up all their shortcomings with gifts with. Tax collectors, prostitutes, non observant Jews. The leaders tried to put an immoral slant to His welcoming mien, but they could not back it with facts or reports of wrongdoing:

Luke 15:2 NET
But the Pharisees and the experts in the law were complaining, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.”

Matt 26 NASB
60 They did not find any, even though many false witnesses came forward. But later on two came forward, 61 and said, “This man stated, ‘I am able to destroy the temple of God and to rebuild it in three days.’”


If the requirement is high, God's intervention is all the more needed and the resulting victory is unmistakenly God's:

Luke 18:19 NET
Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.

1 Peter 2:11-12 NET
Dear friends, I urge you as foreigners and exiles to keep away from fleshly desires that do battle against the soul, and maintain good conduct among the non-Christians, so that though they now malign you as wrongdoers, they may see your go(o)d deeds and glorify God when he appears.
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 

quote:

---

cliffdweller: I would agree for the most part, with some tweaks. I agree that Jesus is moving from an external ethic to an internal ethic. But I would say "attitude" rather than "feelings".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rolyn:


It's not lustful as such , in fact sustained thoughts of having sex with women who enter my field of vision during an average day don't enter the equation at all. The mind centres more on a general appreciation of womanliness .

We're talking the speediest of glances , a moment too long and it's leering . If I'm out working somewhere, or having a tea-break in the van I can often tell , out the corner of the eye , when a lady wishes to exchange a smile or a 'Hello'.

Brightens the day so where's the harm in it.

---

quote:

---

These days women folk can seem genuinely wary of a bearded bloke pulling tombstones up church paths

---

Much as I appreciate the sentiments conveyed by taking your posts in the whole, it's good fun pulling one sentence out at a time!
 

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Posted by mark_in_manchester (# 15978) on :
 
Or even one line at a time:

quote:

---

These days women folk can seem genuinely wary of a bearded bloke pulling tombstones up

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

I personally feel like I can tell the difference between a man who just likes women as a species (delightful) and one who is constantly evaluating. (tiresome.)

---

Not altogether sure I entirely fall into your first category K A . Wouldn't want to pick up a sainthood I don't feel entitled to

However like yourself, my confession to liking women and having a something of roving eye doesn't in itself cause upset . If I knew it did cause jealously and anger then I wouldn't do it , (or wouldn't own up to it ).

Like most of the things Jesus alights to , the manner in which a man views a woman does lie on that trip-point of spiritual reward or emotional gloom.

Many women describe feelings of betrayal if their bloke is into peaking at porn . To my mind this makes such action a more apparent form of adultery . That is reason enough not to go down that road.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by rolyn:


However like yourself, my confession to liking women and having a something of roving eye doesn't in itself cause upset . If I knew it did cause jealously and anger then I wouldn't do it , (or wouldn't own up to it ).

---

I don't think I phrased myself well. I didn't mean to imply saintlike lack of attraction ( ), I guess I just meant that most grown-up men figure out at some point that they can't have a woman simply because they are attracted to her, so they redirect . You sound like one of those guys, so maybe you just make a handy basis for comparison.

I think the discomfort women are describing above-- both from unwanted attention and from partners with inconsiderate gazing habits-- comes from a dynamic when there's some sense in the person gazing that their own self worth is ties up in the gazee's response-- whether the response be a return flirt or visible discomfort. (Sorry, but those guys are out there.) SO it becomes less about sharing a smile of innocent attraction and more about someone proving something to themselves.

I just read a essay written by a woman who spent her high school life feuding with the girl who used to be her best friend over a guy who was vacillating between them only to have it dawn on her that the fighting was what he was after-- that he was deliberately playing them off each other because he got off on the idea of two women fighting over him. (naturally what might happen to their relationship didn't even come into the equation.)
 

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Posted by Cod (# 2643) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by rolyn:

Many women describe feelings of betrayal if their bloke is into peaking at porn . To my mind this makes such action a more apparent form of adultery . That is reason enough not to go down that road.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Cod:
Adultery involves an intimate relationship with another person.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

I don't think I phrased myself well. I didn't mean to imply saintlike lack of attraction ( ), I guess I just meant that most grown-up men figure out at some point that they can't have a woman simply because they are attracted to her, so they redirect . You sound like one of those guys, so maybe you just make a handy basis for comparison.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rolyn:


You hit the nail with the word 'redirect'.

A guy is driving/walking along and sees a very attractive woman . Often he can't help but glance , maybe she returns an open faced smile . Within an instant that guy gives a look of 'I would if I could but I can't' .
That's it . Moment over , never to be repeated. Well not between those two particular folks anyway.

There's a good line in Apocrypha , Ecclesiasticus ( I think) --- "Do not gaze on a beautiful maiden lest you fall in love with her".
As the song says ' Love the one you're with'. Sound advice for a long-term relationship ISTM .

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rolyn:
As the song says ' Love the one you're with'. Sound advice for a long-term relationship ISTM .

---

The song actually says, "If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with." which isn't sound advice.
 

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Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
Well, yeah.
 

---

Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Balaam:

quote:

---

Originally posted by rolyn:
As the song says ' Love the one you're with'. Sound advice for a long-term relationship ISTM .

---

The song actually says, "If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with." which isn't sound advice.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Balaam:

quote:

---

Originally posted by rolyn:
As the song says ' Love the one you're with'. Sound advice for a long-term relationship ISTM .

---

The song actually says, "If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with." which isn't sound advice.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anselmina:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Balaam:

quote:

---

Originally posted by rolyn:
As the song says ' Love the one you're with'. Sound advice for a long-term relationship ISTM .

---

The song actually says, "If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with." which isn't sound advice.

---

Why shouldn't it be sound advice under some circumstances? If the one you love is someone else's husband? Or a celibate? Or Colin Firth?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:
It moves us away from the notion of "love" as a hyper-romanticized, ecstatic feeling over which we have no power or control. The quote could be taken to reinforce the (IMHO biblical) notion that love is a choice. So rather than mooning over some elusive soulmate that you're "not with" for whatever reason, choose to love "the one you're with"-- the one you're married/partnered with. Choose love as an action.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
In any case, it's good to hear that all you hearty chaps are always so taken with your lovely wives that you are always able to "perform" without your mind straying ...!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
In any case, it's good to hear that all you hearty chaps are always so taken with your lovely wives that you are always able to "perform" without your mind straying ...!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
Who do they get to look at?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
In any case, it's good to hear that all you hearty chaps are always so taken with your lovely wives that you are always able to "perform" without your mind straying ...!

---

It may interest you to know I had a 17 year marriage that ended in divorce . So why didn't I just 'Love the one I was with' and make it all better ? Unrequited love , that's why.
I was in a situation very similar to one described by someone on the 'Celibacy in marriage' thread . I was however blissfully unaware of any problem until my then wife declared true love for an OTT womaniser she had befriended on a CB radio.

After battling on with a defunked marriage for a couple of extremely futile years , I was fortunate in being given another chance at a long term relationship .
This is where the learning curve really started , together with the realisation that I'd developed an eye for the ladies .
Maybe my shyness is the only thing that prevents me from becoming a cheating skunk . Dunno, I like to think not. The Tempter has never 'drawn near' in that regard , and I pray it stays that way.

As for a man's performance ? From my experience success or failure does not depend on whether the mind strays into a fantasy world of desire or not.
 

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Posted by Vaticanchic (# 13869) on :
 
Sorry you've had that bad time Rolyn. This is all a bit heavy. I'm not sure I agree with some of these interpretations of Matthew 5, 28. Without getting too involved, I'm sure we need to look at the Sermon as a whole as well as Matthew's general aims. And that's coming from an arch-conservative ...
 

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Posted by rolyn (# 16840) on :
 
No worries Vatichanchic . Just looking for an opportunity to spill . It was 12 years ago, so high-time I STFU about it all really .

When men get dumped out a marriage or LTR , they can sometimes go round thinking they are God's gift to women . Some sort of emotional back-lash apparently .

As the hot weather has arrived in UK, and the ladies are wearing less, I shall take Jesus' advice and 'pluck out ' the offending eye . Well not literally as I'm sure you understand .
 

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