quote:

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I don't think this is racist; it seems like admiration to me.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dark Knight:
Dunno. I love your posts, orfeo, but I cannot make myself watch or listen to Taylor Swift if I don't have to.

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Truth be told I'm not much of a fan either. I do actually have this faint suspicion that as she gets older she might create music I'm more interested in - to me shows some signs of possible ability - but right now I do not fit remotely into her targeted demographic.
 

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Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stetson:
Well, it seems to me that, in at least a few scenes, she is dressed in a manner that is meant to evoke a style commonly associated with African-Americans. Not just that she's copying African-American music or dancing, but that she wants us to look at her image and think "Hmm, she looks kinda black there".

Which I suppose some might view as an updated version of blackface(albeit of a supposedly complimentary variety, not quite as openly degrading as Al Jolson). I'm kind of undecided about these things myself, hut you asked what I saw, so there it is.

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quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
You might as well say that a white rapper is being racist, as he has derived some of his style from previous black rappers. Or Elvis was racist, as he used styles from black music. This is getting barmy.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Stetson:
Well, it seems to me that, in at least a few scenes, she is dressed in a manner that is meant to evoke a style commonly associated with African-Americans. Not just that she's copying African-American music or dancing, but that she wants us to look at her image and think "Hmm, she looks kinda black there".

Which I suppose some might view as an updated version of blackface(albeit of a supposedly complimentary variety, not quite as openly degrading as Al Jolson). I'm kind of undecided about these things myself, hut you asked what I saw, so there it is.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Stetson:

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
You might as well say that a white rapper is being racist, as he has derived some of his style from previous black rappers. Or Elvis was racist, as he used styles from black music. This is getting barmy.

---

Well, there ARE people who say that. I don't know if I would be one of them, but it is a position that some do take.

I think when it comes to illegitimate cultural appropiation, it's sort of like the old obscenity test: "I know it when I see it". The implied qualification being "...but don't ask me to explain my reasons."

I remember once, being invited to the wedding of someone who was partly of non-western parentage. Searching for a gift, I found some little statue that seemed to be from the culture in question. I thought about buying it, but then figured "Nah, I just wouldn't feel comfortable, being an outsider to that tradition, giving that gift to someone with a stronger connection than I have."

Even though if it had been the wedding of a white westerner, I probably would not have thought twice about buying the gift.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Stetson
...when it comes to illegitimate cultural appropiation...

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quote:

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Originally posted by Pomona:
but there IS a long history of white artists using black people as props within their music,

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quote:

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and appropriating black culture for 'art'. Both those things are racist.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Pomona:
It's up to you know, actual black people to comment on the racism (or not) of something, and for white people to listen.

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quote:

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I am not black, therefore cannot comment fully,

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quote:

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I strongly suggest that white people do not harp on about how things are clearly not racist, since they do not experience racism in the first place and so cannot speak from actual experience. How about, you know, asking actual black people? Or would that be confronting your own white privilege a bit too much?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Hilda of Whitby:
Google "swaggerjacking".

There was a really excellent article about this phenomenon in a blog in the Washington Post back in 2012. The article is DC-centric, but the underlying idea is applicable anywhere--whites expropriating elements of black (or other minority) culture in a lame attempt at street cred and keeping it real.

Taylor Swift has about as much street cred as Barbara Cartland.

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quote:

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Unless you're talking about coolness as a racial stereotype?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Pomona:
It's up to you know, actual black people to comment on the racism (or not) of something, and for white people to listen. White people don't know shit about experiencing racism therefore need to listen to people who do.

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quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
I don't know, one way of looking at it is this. In the video she tries to immerse herself in different subcultures. White culture is represented by ballet and theatre classes, black subculture is represented by twerking. They could have represented it with something else.

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quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
The history of art is all about adoption of things. Why is this okay so long as I adopt from someone that has the same outward appearance from me, but suddenly becomes an awful thing if the other person looks different?

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quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
I entirely agree that appropriation with the intention to mock is a problem. But surely it's just as much of a problem if I set out to mock someone with the same skin tone.

Or do I get clear run at mocking country and western because they're "my people"?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Hilda of Whitby:

quote:

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Unless you're talking about coolness as a racial stereotype?

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Bingo.

Swift's video is swaggerjacking; I think it's offensive as well as lame. Doubtless she thinks it's just another career move.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Pomona:
'Admiration' does not cancel out the racism of cultural appropriation, since good intentions do not erase the harm that the racism causes.

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quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
Can I also just say, I find it tremendously hard to reconcile the apparent desire in some quarters for cultural purity on this topic, such that appropriation is racist, with the thread in Hell on the UKIP where it's racist to advocate keeping people separate.

Which is it? Is it good to intermingle with other cultures and learn things, or is it bad? Should I not cook Italian food because I'm not Italian?

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quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
I fail to see a problem with wearing a headscarf just because you like the look of headscarves.

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quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
That's one of the things that really bothers me here. Take one scene and shout "that's the black scene", what does that say about the other scenes? Why take one scene and declare IT to be racially based?

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quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:

Maybe I'm just a naive Aussie who knows nothing about racial politics in other countries

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ann:
Here's one man's answer to cultural appropriation - someone who should have the right to his opinion.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dark Knight:

I do remember the furore over the infinitely more talented Lorde and her single Royals last year. I remember thinking the reasoning that the song was racist was dumber than shit at the time. I still do.
Sorry. Best I can do.

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quote:

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I mean, it’s one thing for kids who fight in the comments section of YouTube and who use ‘gay’ as an insult to take offense at what you’re doing; but when it’s highly intelligent writers, all of whom you respect, you start to question what you’re doing and if you have done something wrong. I have grown up in a time when rap music is pop music, and I do think people were maybe a little bit selective about the parts of that song they used to make those arguments, because a lot of it is examples of rock excess, or just standard pop culture ‘rich kids of Instagram’-type excess. But I’m glad that people are having discussions about it and informing me about it. Also, I wrote that song a few months into being 15, and now I’m a 17-year-old looking back on that, and I didn’t know then what I know now, so I kind of am not too hard on myself.

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quote:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
This one is more nuanced. Is she slagging off black folk or hip-hop/pop materialism? On first hearing, I could not tell. I don't think the racist inference is dumb as much as it is an assumption.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gwai:

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
That's one of the things that really bothers me here. Take one scene and shout "that's the black scene", what does that say about the other scenes? Why take one scene and declare IT to be racially based?

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Actually, if Le Roc is correctly reading her intentions then that is the best evidence that she's being racist. If SHE intends that to be "the black scene" then yeah that is racist--all black people are represented by that--WAY way more problematic than the dance.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Ann:
Here's one man's answer to cultural appropriation - someone who should have the right to his opinion.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

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Originally posted by Dark Knight:

I do remember the furore over the infinitely more talented Lorde and her single Royals last year. I remember thinking the reasoning that the song was racist was dumber than shit at the time. I still do.
Sorry. Best I can do.

---

This one is more nuanced. Is she slagging off black folk or hip-hop/pop materialism? On first hearing, I could not tell. I don't think the racist inference is dumb as much as it is an assumption.
Lorde's own response is this:

quote:

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I mean, it’s one thing for kids who fight in the comments section of YouTube and who use ‘gay’ as an insult to take offense at what you’re doing; but when it’s highly intelligent writers, all of whom you respect, you start to question what you’re doing and if you have done something wrong. I have grown up in a time when rap music is pop music, and I do think people were maybe a little bit selective about the parts of that song they used to make those arguments, because a lot of it is examples of rock excess, or just standard pop culture ‘rich kids of Instagram’-type excess. But I’m glad that people are having discussions about it and informing me about it. Also, I wrote that song a few months into being 15, and now I’m a 17-year-old looking back on that, and I didn’t know then what I know now, so I kind of am not too hard on myself.

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link

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quote:

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orfeo: And that leaves a whole bunch of other scenes in the video that you haven't assigned a race to.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by deano:
Eric Clapton has put more money in black musicians pockets than pretty much any other post-war musician that I know of.

How racist.

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quote:

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Originally posted by deano:
Eric Clapton has put more money in black musicians pockets than pretty much any other post-war musician that I know of.

How racist.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
Can I also just say, I find it tremendously hard to reconcile the apparent desire in some quarters for cultural purity on this topic, such that appropriation is racist, with the thread in Hell on the UKIP where it's racist to advocate keeping people separate.

Which is it? Is it good to intermingle with other cultures and learn things, or is it bad? Should I not cook Italian food because I'm not Italian?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

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orfeo: And that leaves a whole bunch of other scenes in the video that you haven't assigned a race to.

---

I'm not sure if I need to. There isn't a 1:1 correspondence, but some scenes in the video seem to depict scenes that are more closely linked to white culture (for example the ballet) and some scenes are more closely linked to black culture (for example the breakdance). Probably some other scenes are somewhere in between.

There is only one thing in the video that I find vulgar. And it just happens to be in a scene that is connected to black subculture.

---

quote:

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orfeo:The question is, who's doing the linking?

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quote:

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orfeo: I think it's viewers who are choosing to look at a scene and say "that's associated with black culture".

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Justinian:
It did not so far as I could tell put any of the styles of dance on any different levels from any of the others.

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quote:

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I can't see how it was appropriation myself - but it's not my call to make.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

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orfeo:The question is, who's doing the linking?

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Me. But I don't think I'm the only one.

quote:

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orfeo: I think it's viewers who are choosing to look at a scene and say "that's associated with black culture".

---

True. But I think it's the job of a music video's director to ask himself whether a vulgar scene in his clip can be associated with black subculture. Putting some white people in this scene doesn't remove that association.

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quote:

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orfeo: I don't actually know what it is you're finding vulgar.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

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Originally posted by Justinian:
It did not so far as I could tell put any of the styles of dance on any different levels from any of the others.

---

Exactly.

quote:

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I can't see how it was appropriation myself - but it's not my call to make.

---

See, this still bothers me. I don't have time to write now a full explanation of why it bothers me, but the idea that someone's opinion is entirely validated or invalidated by the colour of their skin strikes me as incredibly racist. Deferring to someone's opinion not because it's right but because of the colour surrounding their mouth is racist.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Yeah, that was what hit me, too...it's not so much white folk twerking , but the vanillification of the ballet class that turns Taylor's foray into hiphop a touristy thing. " This is what I cultured, well-bred folk like me usually do, but this is is me mingling with the common folk, isn't that nutty of me?"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
It did not so far as I could tell put any of the styles of dance on any different levels from any of the others.

---

Exactly.

quote:

---

I can't see how it was appropriation myself - but it's not my call to make.

---

See, this still bothers me. I don't have time to write now a full explanation of why it bothers me, but the idea that someone's opinion is entirely validated or invalidated by the colour of their skin strikes me as incredibly racist. Deferring to someone's opinion not because it's right but because of the colour surrounding their mouth is racist.

---

It's a simple rule of thumb.

Are you?
1: The person being hurt and so have first hand experience?
or
2: An expert on the subject in question?

If yes to either, you are in a far better position than the rest of us to tell how much that hurt. I'm an observer but neither in the target nor am I an expert on the subject.

To use one analogy, what a BDSM couple does is up to their limits - especially to the limits of the bottom (although tops have their own limits and need to know this about themselves) - and many will go far, far further than I would consider. And it is up to those involved to call foul.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Yeah, that was what hit me, too...it's not so much white folk twerking , but the vanillification of the ballet class that turns Taylor's foray into hiphop a touristy thing. " This is what I cultured, well-bred folk like me usually do, but this is is me mingling with the common folk, isn't that nutty of me?"

---

If you think the ballet class is "what folk like me usually do", we haven't seen the same video. "What folk like me usually do" is bounce around like dorks, towards the end of the video.

The very fact that anyone identifies Taylor Swift with the ballet dances because she and the ballet dancers share the same skin colour is the problem here.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
It did not so far as I could tell put any of the styles of dance on any different levels from any of the others.

---

Exactly.

quote:

---

I can't see how it was appropriation myself - but it's not my call to make.

---

See, this still bothers me. I don't have time to write now a full explanation of why it bothers me, but the idea that someone's opinion is entirely validated or invalidated by the colour of their skin strikes me as incredibly racist. Deferring to someone's opinion not because it's right but because of the colour surrounding their mouth is racist.

---

It's a simple rule of thumb.

Are you?
1: The person being hurt and so have first hand experience?
or
2: An expert on the subject in question?

If yes to either, you are in a far better position than the rest of us to tell how much that hurt. I'm an observer but neither in the target nor am I an expert on the subject.

To use one analogy, what a BDSM couple does is up to their limits - especially to the limits of the bottom (although tops have their own limits and need to know this about themselves) - and many will go far, far further than I would consider. And it is up to those involved to call foul.

---

I agree with your rule of thumb. I agree entirely that the degree to which an opinion is informed matters.

I don't agree that the amount of melanin in your skin is a proxy for the amount of knowledge in your head.

---

In America (and Britain for that matter) the amount of melanin in your skin is, however, a depressingly good proxy for the likelihood of your being a victim of racism.
 

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Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 
I just want to see men twerking, rather than just women.

Is that so wrong?



(Yes, I have indeed seen some, and I don't care if they're black or white or teal, it's quite... aesthetically pleasing.)
 

---

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Yeah, that was what hit me, too...it's not so much white folk twerking , but the vanillification of the ballet class that turns Taylor's foray into hiphop a touristy thing. " This is what I cultured, well-bred folk like me usually do, but this is is me mingling with the common folk, isn't that nutty of me?"

---

quote:

---

It's not that we can't share. It's that until such time as black people are not ridiculed and debased for the styles and music and lifestyle that they create, live and breathe, hands off. Until such time as black fashion, art and music can become mainstream without having to be passed through a white filter, hands off.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
If Beyoncé or Rihanna decided to do a video using ballet would that be racist and wrong because they'd be appropriating a "white" cultural expression for their own gain?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
Cultural transmission and exchange is normal.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
If Beyoncé or Rihanna decided to do a video using ballet would that be racist and wrong because they'd be appropriating a "white" cultural expression for their own gain?

---

No. Cultural transmission and exchange is normal. And there isn't the surrounding cultural context (blatantly obviously seen in Miley Cyrus at the VMAs) making the whole thing toxic. Yes, this puts African-American and especially Native American culture into a protected group that most other cultures aren't. This is the basic rule. Punch up. Not down. Remove the context and of course you can ask odd seeming questions.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
[qb]Cultural transmission and exchange is normal.

---

But only if it's in one direction*, right? Blacks can have anything from "White Culture" that they want, but Whites can't have anything from "Black Culture"?[/ab]

---

quote:

---

Twerking** - part of "Black Culture", but a white girl wants to do it. That's wrong and racist, and she should be ashamed of herself for trying to steal something that should only ever be done by black people in order to preserve its cultural purity.

---

quote:

---

*= As opposed to One Direction, who are just wrong in any culture.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
Orfeo, if the South Yorkshire Police told me that the weather forecast said sunny I'd reach for my umbrella. This goes double when it's an excuse for something they've clearly done very wrong. And up and down aren't permanent directions and shouldn't be. But there are times when they are obvious. The power imbalance is fairly obvious - and you need to be a lot more careful with going one way than the other. Doesn't mean you can't do it badly (I can imagine Beyoncé really hashing up something with ballet) but by default you aren't stepping into the same range of issues. And there's nothing like Miley Cyrus at the VMAs that's made things twice as sensitive.

---

quote:

---

orfeo: Feel free to read it for yourself, but if you have an aversion to pretentiousness you will definitely need your sick bag.

---

quote:

---

orfeo: Oh, I agree there are some insights in there. But you have to dodge past phrases like "girl-power kabuki" and "bespectacled oblivion" to find them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
Cultural transmission and exchange is normal.

---

But only if it's in one direction*, right? Blacks can have anything from "White Culture" that they want, but Whites can't have anything from "Black Culture"?

---

This has already been dealt with here and here. Situations are different when there is a long history of erasure and degradation flowing one way. And when one culture is the dominant one.

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

Twerking** - part of "Black Culture", but a white girl wants to do it. That's wrong and racist, and she should be ashamed of herself for trying to steal something that should only ever be done by black people in order to preserve its cultural purity.

---

Watch the Miley Cyrus video then get back to me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
If yes to either, you are in a far better position than the rest of us to tell how much that hurt. I'm an observer but neither in the target nor am I an expert on the subject.

To use one analogy, what a BDSM couple does is up to their limits - especially to the limits of the bottom (although tops have their own limits and need to know this about themselves) - and many will go far, far further than I would consider. And it is up to those involved to call foul.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Ballet is the most vanilla dance form I can think of.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

---

orfeo: Oh, I agree there are some insights in there. But you have to dodge past phrases like "girl-power kabuki" and "bespectacled oblivion" to find them.

---

I definitely agree. I especially liked the part where they talked about her posing as a reject when she is in fact the prom queen.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
Cultural transmission and exchange is normal.

---

But only if it's in one direction*, right? Blacks can have anything from "White Culture" that they want, but Whites can't have anything from "Black Culture"?

---

This has already been dealt with here and here. Situations are different when there is a long history of erasure and degradation flowing one way. And when one culture is the dominant one.

---

That's a heck of a lot of words to use when you could have just said "yes".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Ballet is the most vanilla dance form I can think of.

---

I'd have thought that the musical theatre/ballroom dancing that you see people doing on Strictly is the most vanilla kind. Ballet is arguably the most stylised and class-coded art-form in the Western tradition.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

---

orfeo: Oh, I agree there are some insights in there. But you have to dodge past phrases like "girl-power kabuki" and "bespectacled oblivion" to find them.

---

I definitely agree. I especially liked the part where they talked about her posing as a reject when she is in fact the prom queen.

---

This is weirdly a line she's always got away with walking. She's probably the most authentic performer in pop - and the one who can reach out and share that experience with her target audience. But at the same time she's not exactly the normal person she writes as.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
... She's probably the most authentic performer in pop - and the one who can reach out and share that experience with her target audience. ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
... She's probably the most authentic performer in pop - and the one who can reach out and share that experience with her target audience. ...

---

How is one performer more authentic than another?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
By writing/singing/performing what you know/have experienced.
For example, if Andrew Lloyd Webber were to embark on a career as a gansta rapper, it might be difficult to describe him as authentic.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
Ms Swift has a background in Nashville country music; I suspect seeing her in a ballet costume is supposed to be incongruous.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
By writing/singing/performing what you know/have experienced.
For example, if Andrew Lloyd Webber were to embark on a career as a gansta rapper, it might be difficult to describe him as authentic.

---

Whereas he was authentic when writing about an Argentine actress from the slums...?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by saysay:
... in many areas of the country Italians weren't considered white until relatively recently.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:

---

Originally posted by saysay:
... in many areas of the country Italians weren't considered white until relatively recently.

---

Whaaaat. Explain please.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
It is like being the unwanted step child and being given second hand and broken toys. Then, when you have created something cool from that, having it taken over by the favoured children whilst you are still being treated as rubbish.

---

quote:

---

BTW, it isn't white culture. It is British culture, American Culture, Australian culture.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
By writing/singing/performing what you know/have experienced.
For example, if Andrew Lloyd Webber were to embark on a career as a gansta rapper, it might be difficult to describe him as authentic.

---

Whereas he was authentic when writing about an Argentine actress from the slums...?

---

Bad example, then.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
Taylor Swift and the director Mark Romanek shouldn't be being condemned for having created this video, they should be being congratulated.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
It is like being the unwanted step child and being given second hand and broken toys. Then, when you have created something cool from that, having it taken over by the favoured children whilst you are still being treated as rubbish.

---

The solution some seem to be proposing is that the stepchild should be allowed to play with any and every toy in the house, but the other children may not touch the cool toys created out of the second hand or broken ones, because they are still only for the stepchild.

Wouldn't a better solution be that all children may play with any of the toys?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by goperryrevs:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
Taylor Swift and the director Mark Romanek shouldn't be being condemned for having created this video, they should be being congratulated.

---

Plus, Mark Romanek directed the best music video ever, so should be forgiven for everything.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
[qb]It is like being the unwanted step child and being given second hand and broken toys. Then, when you have created something cool from that, having it taken over by the favoured children whilst you are still being treated as rubbish.

---

The solution some seem to be proposing is that the stepchild should be allowed to play with any and every toy in the house, but the other children may not touch the cool toys created out of the second hand or broken ones, because they are still only for the stepchild.

Wouldn't a better solution be that all children may play with any of the toys?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
That might be a better solution. If you removed all context and forgot literally everything you know about the children.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
It is like being the unwanted step child and being given second hand and broken toys. Then, when you have created something cool from that, having it taken over by the favoured children whilst you are still being treated as rubbish.

---

The solution some seem to be proposing is that the stepchild should be allowed to play with any and every toy in the house, but the other children may not touch the cool toys created out of the second hand or broken ones, because they are still only for the stepchild.

Wouldn't a better solution be that all children may play with any of the toys?

---

That might be a better solution. If you removed all context and forgot literally everything you know about the children. When the other kids are known bullies who have a consistent record of (1) maliciously stealing and breaking the stepchildren's toys, (2) bullying the stepchildren by force-feeding them their own toys, (3) creating crude caricatures for the simple purpose of belittling the stepchildren, and (4) looking through anything created and if they like it, stealing it and claiming credit, then no. No it wouldn't.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Justinian
That might be a better solution. If you removed all context and forgot literally everything you know about the children. When the other kids are known bullies who have a consistent record of (1) maliciously stealing and breaking the stepchildren's toys, (2) bullying the stepchildren by force-feeding them their own toys, (3) creating crude caricatures for the simple purpose of belittling the stepchildren, and (4) looking through anything created and if they like it, stealing it and claiming credit, then no. No it wouldn't.

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quote:

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Marvin the Martian: Wouldn't a better solution be that all children may play with any of the toys?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Lucia:
OK, this whole concept of cultural appropriation is new and unfamiliar to me. So my question is why isn't it good if the other kids look at what the step kid has made and go 'Hey that's really cool! We really like what you did, we never thought of doing something like that with that stuff. We think it's great so we'd like to have a go at making ourselves one.'? Now sure, if the other kids pass it off as their own invention that would be dishonest. But if they are wanting to copy it because they think it's good, why is that insulting to the one who made it? Normally imitation is taken to be the sincerest form of flattery! Doesn't it have the potential for those who have invented the thing to be affirmed and for bridges of relationship to be built as others acknowledge their contribution? And if the key is the acknowledgment of the contribution made by the original creators of the thing, how can that be done in music or other art forms?

Is this something peculiar to the the arts? I can't imagine it being that if a scientist from an ethnic minority made an important discovery it could only be used by those of the same minority heritage. So how do arts and sciences differ in this regard?

Genuine questions from one trying to understand..

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Hear, hear. For me, that gets a
 

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Posted by Justinian (# 5357) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Moo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian
That might be a better solution. If you removed all context and forgot literally everything you know about the children. When the other kids are known bullies who have a consistent record of (1) maliciously stealing and breaking the stepchildren's toys, (2) bullying the stepchildren by force-feeding them their own toys, (3) creating crude caricatures for the simple purpose of belittling the stepchildren, and (4) looking through anything created and if they like it, stealing it and claiming credit, then no. No it wouldn't.

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Would you give specific, detailed examples of how the majority of white people have done these things? I grant there are scummy whites, but you sound as if you believed that none of them are decent human beings.

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quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

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Marvin the Martian: Wouldn't a better solution be that all children may play with any of the toys?

---

The problem arises when the other children claim that they have made these toys.

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quote:

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Or when they put these shabby toys next to their shiny ones to laugh at them.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eliab:
I find the whole idea that there are certain forms of cultural and recreational activities appropriate for black people and other forms of cultural and recreational activities appropriate for white people to be more than a little problematic.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eliab:
I find the whole idea that there are certain forms of cultural and recreational activities appropriate for black people and other forms of cultural and recreational activities appropriate for white people to be more than a little problematic.

---

quote:

---

Although, having said 'authenticity' is a red herring, I'm now not so sure. If social, cultural and artistic authenticity is important, that's surely got to be an argument against making people feel defensive or ashamed about things that they happen to like. Accusations of racism made on the basis of cultural preferences do not serve the cause of authenticity.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Anglican't:
I'm not terribly au fait with either, but why is the Swift category of Twerkers respectful but the Cyrus category disrespectful?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Sorry, I'm having a really hard time trying to see twerking as some kind of sacred cultural expression that is inherently worthy of respect and may never have a bad or jesting word said about it. It's a ludicrous form of modern dance, ferchrissakes.

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quote:

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Marvin the Martian: Plagiarism is a bad thing. Got it. But surely that applies no matter who created the thing being plagiarised?

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quote:

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Marvin the Martian: That's only an issue if certain toys belong to certain kids.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dark Knight:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:

---

Originally posted by saysay:
... in many areas of the country Italians weren't considered white until relatively recently.

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Whaaaat. Explain please.

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Is that really a surprise? saysay can of course address your question herself, but it seems evident to me that in many predominantly white, Anglo-Saxon protestant societies, Italians were perceived as "other." In this sense, this is not strictly in reference to skin colour, but also other aspects of ethnicity, such as kinship systems and religion.
Down here, Italian catholicism tended to be marginalised by WASPs but also Irish Catholicism, as the two are quite different.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Justinian:

quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Sorry, I'm having a really hard time trying to see twerking as some kind of sacred cultural expression that is inherently worthy of respect and may never have a bad or jesting word said about it. It's a ludicrous form of modern dance, ferchrissakes.

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To me it looks a whole lot less ludicrous than interpretive dance or, worse yet, ballet.

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quote:

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Edit: "All the toys belong to all the kids"? I never knew you were a communist, Marvin.

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It's an analogy .
 

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Posted by Justinian (# 5357) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Enoch:
I'm with Lucia, Marvin and Eliab on this one. I've watched the video of Miley Cyrus. Her style of dancing is lascivious, crude and coarse rather than just suggestive. If it is being claimed that this is specifically a black form of dancing so that it's all right for a black woman to dance in a way that is lascivious, crude and coarse because what would one expect, but not for a white woman to do so, then I agree. That that argument would not just be racist. It would be very offensive indeed. But I get the very strong impression that isn't what the arguments is.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

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Marvin the Martian: Plagiarism is a bad thing. Got it. But surely that applies no matter who created the thing being plagiarised?

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It's not just plagiarised. Suppose the other kids not only take these toys, but also say: "How cool am I that I have these toys?" While the other kids made them.

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quote:

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quote:

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Marvin the Martian: That's only an issue if certain toys belong to certain kids.

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It's also an issue if certain toys were made by certain kids.

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quote:

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Marvin the Martian: That's still claiming the kudos for someone else's work, which is still the same thing.

---

quote:

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Marvin the Martian: Why? Does making something mean only you may use it?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
And of course, in the cultural context there aren't a limited number of "toys" to go round - anyone can dance a certain way, and it doesn't matter how many other people also do so, much less how much melanin they happen to have. If it's cool to twerk (which I dispute), then it's cool no matter who does it.

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quote:

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quote:

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quote:

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Marvin the Martian: That's only an issue if certain toys belong to certain kids.

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It's also an issue if certain toys were made by certain kids.

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Why? Does making something mean only you may use it?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Enoch:
I am sure it is possible for a waltz to be lascivious, crude and coarse, but that doesn't mean it's also automatically an insult to all Austrians.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Enoch:
I'm with Lucia, Marvin and Eliab on this one. I've watched the video of Miley Cyrus. Her style of dancing is lascivious, crude and coarse rather than just suggestive. If it is being claimed that this is specifically a black form of dancing so that it's all right for a black woman to dance in a way that is lascivious, crude and coarse because what would one expect, but not for a white woman to do so, then I agree. That that argument would not just be racist. It would be very offensive indeed. But I get the very strong impression that isn't what the arguments is.

Clearly, as foreigners, we're outside the culture and don't get the point. Not everything transposes. Would it be wiser just to give up trying?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
The solution some seem to be proposing is that the stepchild should be allowed to play with any and every toy in the house, but the other children may not touch the cool toys created out of the second hand or broken ones, because they are still only for the stepchild.

Wouldn't a better solution be that all children may play with any of the toys?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Moo:
Would you give specific, detailed examples of how the majority of white people have done these things? I grant there are scummy whites, but you sound as if you believed that none of them are decent human beings.

Moo

---

quote:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Actually, not failing to give respect, but actively disrespecting and disregarding.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Oy, forget the analogies, then.
White people have criticised the behaviour of Black folk "Look at them dancing like monkeys, speaking and acting like trash" All whilst appropriating many of those same behaviours.
It is not about who owns what; it is about taking the creation without giving any respect to the creators. Actually, not failing to give respect, but actively disrespecting and disregarding.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by ChastMastr:

quote:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Actually, not failing to give respect, but actively disrespecting and disregarding.

---

Then the solution is to give respect, not to burn all of the Beatles' albums or shun Tommy Dorsey's work. And it's not a sin to enjoy those things, either.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Keeping it to music; Swing, Blues, Jazz, Rock n' Roll, R&B, Hip-Hop. All musical styles birthed by black folk but appropriated by white folk.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Eliab:
Surely the offensive and immoral part of that is referring to other human beings as "monkeys" and "trash"? Being influenced by culture and art is not offensive or immoral.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eliab:

And that's even if I grant the inherently unlikely premise that it's the same white people who think black people are monkeys who are all gung ho for dreadlocks and breakdancing. I doubt it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Holy Smoke:

quote:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Keeping it to music; Swing, Blues, Jazz, Rock n' Roll, R&B, Hip-Hop. All musical styles birthed by black folk but appropriated by white folk.

---

No, lilBuddha, they were styles birthed by musicians and borrowed and developed by other musicians. Without any help from politicians.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Holy Smoke:

quote:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Keeping it to music; Swing, Blues, Jazz, Rock n' Roll, R&B, Hip-Hop. All musical styles birthed by black folk but appropriated by white folk.

---

No, lilBuddha, they were styles birthed by musicians and borrowed and developed by other musicians. Without any help from politicians.

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quote:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Iggy Azalea. When she performs, it is not a white person performing black music that is the problem, it is that she sings as if she were black.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by saysay:

quote:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Iggy Azalea. When she performs, it is not a white person performing black music that is the problem, it is that she sings as if she were black.

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And I find this a problematic and possibly racist statement. What does it mean to perform as if one were black?

I ask as someone from an inter-racial family (black/ white marriage in the previous generation) who is baffled by many black people's insistence on calling me Sarah Jane (from the movie Imitations of Life). Most of my friends are working-class whites and I have no idea what I'm saying or doing that reads as black to people north of the Mason Dixon line. But, apparently, according to you if I were to perform on film or in music, I'd be being racist.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eliab:
I find the whole idea that there are certain forms of cultural and recreational activities appropriate for black people and other forms of cultural and recreational activities appropriate for white people to be more than a little problematic.

---

It is more than a little problematic. The entire race relations situation, especially in America, is fucked up (which on the other hand means that twice as much thought goes into it in America as anywhere else). If there were a healthy race relations situation in America then it would be an incredibly bad idea. And heart surgery on a healthy person is a very bad idea.

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This.

 

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Posted by Eliab (# 9153) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Azalea is a white Australian from a white Australian town. When she speaks, she sounds like a white Australian from a white Australian town. When she sings, she affects a black accent.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Azalea is a white Australian from a white Australian town. When she speaks, she sounds like a white Australian from a white Australian town. When she sings, she affects a black accent.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Jude:
Right now I'm listening to one of my favourite songs - Dreadlock Holiday by 10cc. Racist?

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quote:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I don't think that is where my comments were heading.

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Then I'm sorry but I genuinely misunderstood you.
 

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Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
Let's take twerking as an example. The majority of white people are not going to twerk. Period.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eliab:

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Azalea is a white Australian from a white Australian town. When she speaks, she sounds like a white Australian from a white Australian town. When she sings, she affects a black accent.

---

Is she doing this to take the piss? If so, fine, that's racist.

Is she doing it because she thinks the song (or style of song) sounds better in a particular voice? If so, that's an artistic choice that seems to me no more objectionable than an English actor affecting a Scottish accent when playing MacBeth.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by saysay:

(And is it just me, or do other people find it almost impossible to hear accents in songs? Or are all the Australian, Irish, English, New Zealand, etc. musicians affecting American accents to try to succeed in the American market?)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eliab:
Is she doing this to take the piss? If so, fine, that's racist.

Is she doing it because she thinks the song (or style of song) sounds better in a particular voice? If so, that's an artistic choice that seems to me no more objectionable than an English actor affecting a Scottish accent when playing MacBeth.

Is she just being pretentious? If so, that may be an artistic or personal fault, but it isn't racist. Everyone is pretentious. We've all, at some time, put on some sort of pose to project some sort of desired impression, and most of us have occasionally looked daft as a result. The fact that it's a "black" accent that's used doesn't automatically make the choice racist.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by saysay:

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Azalea is a white Australian from a white Australian town. When she speaks, she sounds like a white Australian from a white Australian town. When she sings, she affects a black accent.

---

But what on earth is a black accent?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
They are from the early days of white rappers and did not feel the need to be anything other than themselves.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

quote:

---

Originally posted by saysay:

(And is it just me, or do other people find it almost impossible to hear accents in songs? Or are all the Australian, Irish, English, New Zealand, etc. musicians affecting American accents to try to succeed in the American market?)

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Depends who you listen to. Most mainstream pop is sung by artists affecting a mid-atlantic twang.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

---

Marvin the Martian: That's still claiming the kudos for someone else's work, which is still the same thing.

---

Not really. You can try to look cool using someone else's stuff without explicitly claiming you made it.

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

Marvin the Martian: Why? Does making something mean only you may use it?

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Read back our discussion please. This wasn't about who can use something.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Justinian:
In fact I'd go so far as to say that Miley Cyrus' twerking probably qualifies as a mean-spirited parody of twerking.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChastMastr:

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Actually, not failing to give respect, but actively disrespecting and disregarding.

---

Then the solution is to give respect, not to burn all of the Beatles' albums or shun Tommy Dorsey's work. And it's not a sin to enjoy those things, either.

---

I don't think that is where my comments were heading.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
... If I bust out some Michael Jackson moves on the dancefloor or pick up my guitar and nail the solo from Hotel California in an attempt to look cool then what's wrong with that? ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Enoch:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
... If I bust out some Michael Jackson moves on the dancefloor or pick up my guitar and nail the solo from Hotel California in an attempt to look cool then what's wrong with that? ...

---

Nothing, as long as you don't think you're going to look like anything else other than a complete plonker

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
The thing about black accents is interesting, as people used to complain that a lot of the white kids in London schools were talking like black kids. Anyway, from what I've seen, they still do that, but there has been a sort of fusion between different accents. But my point is that they wanted to seem cool - is that racist? I suppose technically it is, but it's an odd way of looking at it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

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Originally posted by Justinian:
Let's take twerking as an example. The majority of white people are not going to twerk. Period.

---

Wow. Just, wow.

So, apparently, melanin not only affects your skin colour, it affects your anatomy so fundamentally that it alters whether or not you can plant your feet and shake your butt.

---

quote:

---

I'd be quite fascinated to know how the lighter-skinned girls in the video overcame their body's fundamental unsuitability to twerking.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
In fact I'd go so far as to say that Miley Cyrus' twerking probably qualifies as a mean-spirited parody of twerking.

---

What's wrong with parody?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
Your question is missing two critical words. "mean-spirited".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
Your question is missing two critical words. "mean-spirited".

---

Is mean spirited parody always wrong? I've seen some very mean-spirited parodies of Conservative or Republican politicians over the last few years, for example.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
No it isn't always wrong - but as I pointed out upthread, neither is cutting people open with a knife. Surgeons, after all, do it. Politics is about the least likely area for it to be wrong, and even then it often is.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I notice that lots of kids in English schools use black slang, well, I'm assuming that some of it was originally. I don't think this is racist; it seems like admiration to me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
No it isn't always wrong - but as I pointed out upthread, neither is cutting people open with a knife. Surgeons, after all, do it. Politics is about the least likely area for it to be wrong, and even then it often is.

---

So politicians are (more likely to be) fair game, but dancers aren't? Or is it only certain types of dancer - would a parody of ballet or ballroom dancers be OK?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Holy Smoke:

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Keeping it to music; Swing, Blues, Jazz, Rock n' Roll, R&B, Hip-Hop. All musical styles birthed by black folk but appropriated by white folk.

---

No, lilBuddha, they were styles birthed by musicians and borrowed and developed by other musicians. Without any help from politicians.

---

You say that as if it somehow contradicts lilBuddha's point.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
Professional dancers tend to be higher up than dancers in a formalized style with professional teachers like ballroom or ballet, which themselves tend to be higher up than those in a relatively new style that hasn't yet been formalised.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

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Originally posted by Justinian:
Professional dancers tend to be higher up than dancers in a formalized style with professional teachers like ballroom or ballet, which themselves tend to be higher up than those in a relatively new style that hasn't yet been formalised.

---

So it would be perfectly OK for an amateur ballet dancer (or, say, someone who freely admits that they can't dance at all, which presumably puts them right at the bottom of the pile and thus makes them immune from criticism) to do a mean-spirited parody of a professional twerker. Nothing wrong with that at all, right?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Holy Smoke:

IMO - lB seems to be proposing some kind of cultural apartheid, of the kind generally only supported by a certain type of politics, not by the people who actually write and perform, or by the people who listen to the music (the same applies to dance, literature, etc.).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
Let's take twerking as an example. The majority of white people are not going to twerk. Period.

---

Wow. Just, wow.

So, apparently, melanin not only affects your skin colour, it affects your anatomy so fundamentally that it alters whether or not you can plant your feet and shake your butt.

---

Sorry, I thought that some of the context there was more obvious than it was. "The majority of white people are not going to twerk any more than they are going to dance ballet."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by chris stiles:

quote:

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Originally posted by Holy Smoke:

lB seems to be proposing some kind of cultural apartheid, of the kind generally only supported by a certain type of politics, not by the people who actually write and perform, or by the people who listen to the music (the same applies to dance, literature, etc.).

---

Again it depends, there's going to be a difference in kind between Elvis and blacking up, for instance.

It does seem that at least some white rap performers tend play towards a very fetishised, caricature of black people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
Let's take twerking as an example. The majority of white people are not going to twerk. Period.

---

Wow. Just, wow.

So, apparently, melanin not only affects your skin colour, it affects your anatomy so fundamentally that it alters whether or not you can plant your feet and shake your butt.

---

Sorry, I thought that some of the context there was more obvious than it was. "The majority of white people are not going to twerk any more than they are going to dance ballet."

---

But this just makes highlighting that they are white people a nonsense. If they're equally likely to not dance ballet and not twerk, it has precisely nothing to do with their skin colour (given that ballet is "white" dancing), it's because they're not any good at dancing. Period.

You could have just said "the majority of people are not going to twerk". Unless you're trying to suggest that being black gives you a greater chance of having dancing skills?

---

The majority of people are not going to twerk, period - this is indeed the point I was making. Highlighting that they are white people actually is relevant because one reason people dance the way they do is the surrounding culture; I, for example, am unlikely to dance Odori (one of the traditional Japanese styles). They are therefore irrelevant to whether or not white people twerking would be a bad thing. If the context I added was confusing then my apologies.

I then broke down white people who are going to twerk into two groups. The group who, like Taylor Swift, are going to treat it as a form of dancing like any other. And those who, like Miley Cyrus, are going to use it as a key component in a fetishised caricature of black people. And the group that behaves like Miley Cyrus is too damn big when compared to that like Taylor Swift.

Also any intent was to say that the majority of people who can twerk are black.

(And thanks for providing the word fetishistic, Chris - it was one I'd been looking for
 

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Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:

Also any intent was to say that the majority of people who can twerk are black.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by cliffdweller:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:

Also any intent was to say that the majority of people who can twerk are black.

---

The problem for me here is the use of the word "can". Perhaps I am misreading your intent (apparently a lot of that happening here) but what it sounds to me like you are saying is that there is something physically different about black anatomy which enables them to move their bums in a particular way. In the absence of any scientific evidence that that is the case, that sounds rather problematic to me.

Perhaps what you mean is either:

1. The majority of people who have learned this particular dance style are black.

or

2. The only people who should engage in this particular dance style are black.

#1 is probably a statement of fact. I haven't done any surveys but it appears to be true. It's not a statement about ability-- I would imagine that anyone who was fairly coordinated and particularly anyone with some dance ability (e.g. ballet dancers) would be able to learn the required moves with a bit of practice. #2 is of course the question under debate.

---

1 is a correct reading of what I intended to mean by that statement. "So you think you can dance?" doesn't mean to imply that most people are unable to jump around vaguely in time with music and I was using can in that sense rather than "is physically able to at a very basic level".

2 is of course under debate - but a part of the logic of 2 follows from 1
 

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Posted by la vie en rouge (# 10688) on :
 
I recently attended an Iranian wedding and discovered what mahoosive party animals they are.

The tone of the evening was set early when someone on my table said “We’re Iranians. We’re at a wedding. Of course we’re going to be dancing.”

The music got cranked up, the Middle Eastern* guests all hit the dance floor with great zeal and pulled everyone else out of their chairs. Cue a load of awkward white people cowering sheepishly on the edge of the dance floor looking embarrassed and wondering how to participate in this particular style of dancing that resembles nothing they’ve never attempted before in their lives. It should be said that some of the Iranian guests were not particularly good dancers either but they didn’t care about not being experts in the form and they were having a bloody good time (the best man said to us, “I’m crap at dancing, but what are you going to do? It’s a wedding.”)

I went for the smart approach of finding a friendly Iranian guest willing to give me a crash course on how Middle Eastern dance works. It’s actually not that hard once you get the hang of the hip movement (and I suspect it must do fantastic things for your core muscles ). Actually I reckon the complicated bit for most middle-class white people is not the physical movement in itself, but getting over your cultural hang-ups about making seductive movements with your lower body.

Were we (the white people willing to join in the dancing) appropriating the Iranians’ culture by attempting to dance like them? I don’t think so. I loved that they wanted their white guests to join in. They were inviting us to participate in their culture, not guarding it against racist appropriation. It struck me as a very generous kind of hospitality. It was a fantastic party.

I guess there’s a point to be made about power dynamics somewhere, but the power dynamics aren’t particularly on the side of Middle Easterners either, and these particular Iranians weren’t afraid of sharing their cultural artefact with a load of white people.

*Mostly Iranians, but not exclusively. There were also a couple of Syrians and IIRC someone from Iraq.
 

---

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 

quote:

---

Marvin the Martian: The problem with that being what, exactly? People do it all the time. If I bust out some Michael Jackson moves on the dancefloor or pick up my guitar and nail the solo from Hotel California in an attempt to look cool then what's wrong with that?

---

quote:

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Marvin the Martian: You were complaining about mocking someone who's made something that's shabby. But you were also complaining about people wanting to use that something because it's really cool. It's hard to keep up with the conversation when you're flipping between the two depending on which point you want to make at the time.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by la vie en rouge:
Were we (the white people willing to join in the dancing) appropriating the Iranians’ culture by attempting to dance like them? I don’t think so. I loved that they wanted their white guests to join in. They were inviting us to participate in their culture, not guarding it against racist appropriation. It struck me as a very generous kind of hospitality. It was a fantastic party.

---

quote:

---

I guess there’s a point to be made about power dynamics somewhere, but the power dynamics aren’t particularly on the side of Middle Easterners either, and these particular Iranians weren’t afraid of sharing their cultural artefact with a load of white people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:

quote:

---

[snip]
1. The majority of people who have learned this particular dance style are black.

or

2. The only people who should engage in this particular dance style are black.

---

1 is a correct reading of what I intended to mean by that statement. "So you think you can dance?" doesn't mean to imply that most people are unable to jump around vaguely in time with music and I was using can in that sense rather than "is physically able to at a very basic level".

2 is of course under debate - but a part of the logic of 2 follows from 1

---

quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
Where exactly does the line lie between this and you doing a Michael Jackson imitation? I don't know. IANAL.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:
Did I feel uneasy about what they were doing? Most definitely yes. Flaunting the spirituality and the culture of another people like this, claiming some sort of religious status, without their consent or approval, is a case of cultural appropriation as far as I'm concerned.

---

quote:

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Marvin the Martian: I would say that the difference is that I wouldn't be pretending that I actually was Michael Jackson, whereas those people were pretending to be actual Native Americans.

Their offence was not so much cultural appropriation as cultural fraud.

---

quote:

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Eliab: Does it matter, and do you know, whether it was:

---

quote:

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Enoch: As this chappie.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:

quote:

---

[snip]
1. The majority of people who have learned this particular dance style are black.

or

2. The only people who should engage in this particular dance style are black.

---

1 is a correct reading of what I intended to mean by that statement. "So you think you can dance?" doesn't mean to imply that most people are unable to jump around vaguely in time with music and I was using can in that sense rather than "is physically able to at a very basic level".

2 is of course under debate - but a part of the logic of 2 follows from 1

---

Does that apply across the board, though? If it is true that white people shouldn't do something because the majority of people who do it are black, as you are asserting here, then how can it not be equally true that black people shouldn't do something because the majority of people who do it are white?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
There's a point to be made about power dynamics. The playing field there was, however, at least vaguely level. There also isn't the specific history that there is in America that makes it particularly toxic.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lucia:
I'm starting to understand that there is a whole dynamic of interaction between different racial groups in the USA which is unfamiliar from my own context. It's useful to be aware of that. However I think it is also the case that America is a very specific context and I'm not sure that it is helpful to import American hang ups into other places that don't have the same history.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lucia:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
There's a point to be made about power dynamics. The playing field there was, however, at least vaguely level. There also isn't the specific history that there is in America that makes it particularly toxic.

---

I suspect this is part of the difficulty for those of us outside the American context. Coming from a different historical context means that we don't have the same sensitivities over this issue and the reaction to it seems somewhat over the top from the outside. I'm starting to understand that there is a whole dynamic of interaction between different racial groups in the USA which is unfamiliar from my own context. It's useful to be aware of that. However I think it is also the case that America is a very specific context and I'm not sure that it is helpful to import American hang ups into other places that don't have the same history. Perhaps the way these things need to be handled in the USA is the more unusual case rather than the universal model?

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Where else can a position of "white people shouldn't use black forms of cultural expression" take us?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Enoch:
A lot of British pop musicians sing with cod US accents. I don't think it's because they are pitching themselves at the US market. It's more that they think it's essential to the genre and makes them sound cool.

It's not necessary. They don't all do it. But according to Justinian's arguments, Americans should regard this as an insult.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Enoch:

In the same way, perhaps we should regard it as an insult to us that in the Eurovision Song Contest, a lot of the continental competitors choose to sing in English. They seem to think that's more cool than singing in, say, German or Serb-Croat.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
I'm looking at the issue from the musician's point of view - there may be issues of discrimination around the music, or the music may be about political issues, but the music stands on its own, IMO - lB seems to be proposing some kind of cultural apartheid, of the kind generally only supported by a certain type of politics, not by the people who actually write and perform, or by the people who listen to the music (the same applies to dance, literature, etc.). Musicians and dancers typically perform in a range of styles, not just that from their 'indigenous culture' (whatever that means), and in my experience, so long as it's not an obvious hostile piss-take, the only people who object are certain politicians, who regard themselves as some sort of self-appointed guardians of cultural purity, (and the more so when said culture no longer exists as a living tradition).

---

quote:

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Originally posted by la vie en rouge:

I guess there’s a point to be made about power dynamics somewhere, but the power dynamics aren’t particularly on the side of Middle Easterners either, and these particular Iranians weren’t afraid of sharing their cultural artefact with a load of white people.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:

First I do not, nor ever have, proposed, considered or approved any form of apartheid.
Second, as I alluded in a couple of examples earlier, the music story is considerably more nuanced than you present.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
I'm looking at the issue from the musician's point of view - there may be issues of discrimination around the music, or the music may be about political issues, but the music stands on its own, IMO

---

quote:

---

Musicians and dancers typically perform in a range of styles, not just that from their 'indigenous culture' (whatever that means), and in my experience, so long as it's not an obvious hostile piss-take, the only people who object are certain politicians, who regard themselves as some sort of self-appointed guardians of cultural purity, (and the more so when said culture no longer exists as a living tradition).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Colour does not give one an accent. However, culture certainly can. There is also phrasing, so perhaps accent is not precise enough a word.
Listen to her talk, Listen to her sing.
Contrast with the Beastie Boys. They are from the early days of white rappers and did not feel the need to be anything other than themselves.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
Let's take twerking as an example. The majority of white people are not going to twerk. Period.

---

Wow. Just, wow.

So, apparently, melanin not only affects your skin colour, it affects your anatomy so fundamentally that it alters whether or not you can plant your feet and shake your butt.

---

Sorry, I thought that some of the context there was more obvious than it was. "The majority of white people are not going to twerk any more than they are going to dance ballet."

---

But this just makes highlighting that they are white people a nonsense. If they're equally likely to not dance ballet and not twerk, it has precisely nothing to do with their skin colour (given that ballet is "white" dancing), it's because they're not any good at dancing. Period.

You could have just said "the majority of people are not going to twerk". Unless you're trying to suggest that being black gives you a greater chance of having dancing skills?

---

The majority of people are not going to twerk, period - this is indeed the point I was making. Highlighting that they are white people actually is relevant because one reason people dance the way they do is the surrounding culture; I, for example, am unlikely to dance Odori (one of the traditional Japanese styles). They are therefore irrelevant to whether or not white people twerking would be a bad thing. If the context I added was confusing then my apologies.

I then broke down white people who are going to twerk into two groups. The group who, like Taylor Swift, are going to treat it as a form of dancing like any other. And those who, like Miley Cyrus, are going to use it as a key component in a fetishised caricature of black people. And the group that behaves like Miley Cyrus is too damn big when compared to that like Taylor Swift.

Also any intent was to say that the majority of people who can twerk are black.

(And thanks for providing the word fetishistic, Chris - it was one I'd been looking for

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
I'm looking at the issue from the musician's point of view - there may be issues of discrimination around the music, or the music may be about political issues, but the music stands on its own, IMO

---

Except that lilBuddha's point was that the music seems to be far more commercially successful when it's performed by white people than when it's performed by the original black people. The music might stand on its own, but when it wants to go places it appears that being performed by white people gives it a great big leg up.

In general, I think the black musicians who originally performed the music might quite like to have got some of the airtime and exposure that the white musicians get.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:
[QBI wish the line were so easy to draw but I'm not sure. What about Michael Jackson impersonators? There are plenty of those, from all races.[/qb]

---

quote:

---

If you record a rap song under the name MC Marve using a 'black' accent (I'm not going to enter the discussion about what that is) and it's just audio so people can't see your face, are you pretending to be black?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:

quote:

---

[snip]
1. The majority of people who have learned this particular dance style are black.

or

2. The only people who should engage in this particular dance style are black.

---

1 is a correct reading of what I intended to mean by that statement. "So you think you can dance?" doesn't mean to imply that most people are unable to jump around vaguely in time with music and I was using can in that sense rather than "is physically able to at a very basic level".

2 is of course under debate - but a part of the logic of 2 follows from 1

---

Does that apply across the board, though? If it is true that white people shouldn't do something because the majority of people who do it are black, as you are asserting here, then how can it not be equally true that black people shouldn't do something because the majority of people who do it are white?

---

That is not what I am asserting. What I am asserting is that white people should be extremely cautious about doing something when the majority of white people who do it behave in a manner which has strong racist overtones.

---

quote:

---

Marvin the Martian: Tribute acts are a bit different.

---

quote:

---

Marvin the Martian:Is that a different thing from a black person putting on a 'white' accent to, say, record a country & western song?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

---

Marvin the Martian: Tribute acts are a bit different.

---

And theatre, and ... You'll get so many exceptions that your efforts to draw a clear line here are down the drain already.

---

quote:

---

quote:

---

Marvin the Martian:Is that a different thing from a black person putting on a 'white' accent to, say, record a country & western song?

---

You're the one who said: "If you pretend to be from another race, you're a fraud".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Then you did a terrible job of asserting it. I've left the entire exchange in the quote above to support the following explanation.

You asserted that "a part of the logic of 2 ["The only people who should engage in this particular dance style are black"] follows from 1 ["The majority of people who have learned this particular dance style are black"]". In what way does that not equate - in part if not in toto - to "white (or "non-black", if you want to be semantically pedantic) people shouldn't do something because the majority of people who do it are black"?

---

quote:

---

The exchange is right there. It's exactly what you said. Defend it or recant it, but don't try to pretend you really said something else.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Mind you, Olivier's blacking up to do Othello would no doubt be frowned on today; but Domingo used to black up for the opera version. I suspect that it won't be long before a white actor plays this part again, but without blacking up probably. At the moment, the play is rarely put on.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

I just don't see the difference between "white people shouldn't rap" and "black people shouldn't play golf".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by chris stiles:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

I just don't see the difference between "white people shouldn't rap" and "black people shouldn't play golf".

---

The issue wasn't one of whites rapping, it was specifically about rapping while acting out popular stereotypes of blacks.

Similarly the problem with blackface ministrels wasn't the particular tunes that they chose to sing.

---

quote:

---

Marvin the Martian: I'm just trying to draw out a consistent principle that can apply equally to everyone.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by chris stiles:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

I just don't see the difference between "white people shouldn't rap" and "black people shouldn't play golf".

---

The issue wasn't one of whites rapping, it was specifically about rapping while acting out popular stereotypes of blacks.

Similarly the problem with blackface ministrels wasn't the particular tunes that they chose to sing.

---

But I think the point is that rapping IS a popular stereotype of blacks. Same with twerking. It's not a case of having to do something else 'black' at the same time before people will see it as undertaking a 'black' activity.

---

quote:

---

quetzalcoatl: I don't think a white singer like Taylor Swift can win really

---

quote:

---

quetzalcoatl: They even do it on 'Strictly Come Dancing' now.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
The part where it says "A part of the logic of 2". 2 does not follow directly and necessarily from 1. As you quoted. 1 is necessary but not sufficient for 2.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
The part where it says "A part of the logic of 2". 2 does not follow directly and necessarily from 1. As you quoted. 1 is necessary but not sufficient for 2.

---

I acknowledged the "in part" in my post. It still means that you think "white people shouldn't do something if the majority of people who do it are black" forms part of the argument.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
White people who are entertainers shouldn't wear makeup that makes them look like black people. There is no problem with black people who are entertainers wearing makeup that makes them look like black people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Is that a different thing from a black person putting on a 'white' accent to, say, record a country & western song?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
But is there a problem with black entertainers (Eddie Murphy, say) wearing makeup that makes them look like white people? That's the real comparison.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
But is there a problem with black entertainers (Eddie Murphy, say) wearing makeup that makes them look like white people? That's the real comparison.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
The point about making fun of people is interesting in relation to comedy, as there are black comedians who make fun of white people, (and also black people), (Reginald D. Hunter being a prime example),

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
White people who are entertainers shouldn't wear makeup that makes them look like black people. There is no problem with black people who are entertainers wearing makeup that makes them look like black people.

---

But is there a problem with black entertainers (Eddie Murphy, say) wearing makeup that makes them look like white people? That's the real comparison.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
To take one obvious example:

White people who are entertainers shouldn't wear makeup that makes them look like black people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eliab:

(I'm a LARPer - I'd wear make up to play a character of a different race without a qualm, and can't see that it makes much of a difference whether that 'different race' is "black" or "orc". Of course, I'm not a professional, so if I play a different race, I'm not doing real-life people of that race out of their livelihood, which makes a difference compared to professional entertainers blacking up. But in principle, its about pretending to be someone else, and there's no reason to put unnecessary racial barriers around the human imagination.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by goperryrevs:
Do people have a problem with Kayvan Novak (a Brit of Iranian descent)? In Facejacker he both blacks up and whites up. His characters involve strong accents and culture-based humour.

---

quote:

---

But there is the whole history of "blacking up" both by professionals and just for "fun" which colours anyone doing it now no matter their motive.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jane R:
*sigh* Maybe in your mind and the mind of anyone affected by American cultural imperialism. These days, that would be most people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Is somebody saying that for white people to twerk is racist?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
First, country and western's typical accent is regional and rural, not tied to colour.

---

quote:

---

However, linguist David Crystal posits that a musical style can shape the "accent" with which it is sung. The melody cancels out intonation and the beat cancels out the rhythm of speech, thus enforcing an accent which sounds "American". For pop and rock this seems evident.
I think the same argument could be made for country.
This is not the case for rap. Given the examples of Eminem, The Beastie Boys, House of Pain, Macklemore, Aesop Rock. etc. who do not sound like knockoffs of 50 Cent, Ice Cube or Dr Dre. yet still sound authentic.

---

quote:

---

One, Murphy is not taking roles from white people by doing so,

---

quote:

---

he is not making fun of white culture when he does this

---

quote:

---

and, even if that was his intent, the power differential does make a difference.

---

quote:

---

Is somebody saying that for white people to twerk is racist?

---

quote:

---

Swift's video is swaggerjacking; I think it's offensive as well as lame.

---

quote:

---

The majority of people are not going to twerk, period - this is indeed the point I was making. Highlighting that they are white people actually is relevant because one reason people dance the way they do is the surrounding culture...

---

quote:

---

What I am asserting is that white people should be extremely cautious about doing something when the majority of white people who do it behave in a manner which has strong racist overtones.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
But there is the whole history of "blacking up" both by professionals and just for "fun" which colours anyone doing it now no matter their motive.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eliab:
Because it really wasn't. That was someone else. Not me. Someone else with my approximate melanin level. Still not me.

And motive does matter, because what we're discussing is what is racist. Not what is sensitive or insensitive, polite or impolite, advisable or inadvisable. If I'm doing or saying something that isn't racist, previous superficially-similar actions done by racists for racist motives don't make my action racist. At most they raise the possibility of misunderstanding.

---

quote:

---

I will concede that it is part of basic politeness not to be completely insensitive to the possibility of unwittingly giving offence, but it is ALSO part of basic politeness to have a default assumption of good faith. That means that if a person's artistic/cultural/recreational activities can be seen in two ways, one innocent and one racist,and there's no positive evidence to suggest that this particular person intends the racist one, then it is a moral obligation to assume in her favour that the innocent interpretation is correct unless and until one has a reason to think the contrary.

---

quote:

---

Whenever we have racism threads on the Ship (and the 'This ManU logo looks a bit like a swastika' one was probably the clearest example) it amazes me how quickly and on how little evidence people are willing to accuse strangers of the most egregious bigotry when there is so obviously a plausible and innocent alternative.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
Intent isn't magic[/i]. People fuck up.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stetson:
Well, it seems to me that, in at least a few scenes, she is dressed in a manner that is meant to evoke a style commonly associated with African-Americans. Not just that she's copying African-American music or dancing, but that she wants us to look at her image and think "Hmm, she looks kinda black there".

Which I suppose some might view as an updated version of blackface(albeit of a supposedly complimentary variety, not quite as openly degrading as Al Jolson). I'm kind of undecided about these things myself, hut you asked what I saw, so there it is.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
First, country and western's typical accent is regional and rural, not tied to colour.

---

Come off it. How is that any different to saying that rap's typical accent is regional and urban, rather than tied to colour?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

Anyone who suggests that there isn't a melody or beat in rap music is listening to the wrong artists. And given that there are such things in rap, I fail to see why they wouldn't have the same effect on intonation and rhythm as they do in any other musical form.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

It never ceases to amaze me the lengths to which people will go to to show that nothing white people do can ever be said to be linked to their skin colour, while the things black people do are linked to their skin colour. So much effort expended in the cause of perpetuating a double standard.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

One, Murphy is not taking roles from white people by doing so,

---

I fail to see how a white person playing a black character is taking the role away from a black actor, but a black actor playing a white character isn't taking the role away from a white actor.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

he is not making fun of white culture when he does this

---

The hell he isn't.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

Translation - they can take the piss out of us all they want, but we're not allowed to take the piss back. And this furthers the cause of equality for reasons.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eliab:
Yes, there have been a lot of racist portrayals of black people in the past, but in relation to every last one of them, I'm going to appropriate a piece of black culture and say "It wasn't me".

Because it really wasn't. That was someone else. Not me. Someone else with my approximate melanin level. Still not me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eliab:

And motive does matter, because what we're discussing is what is racist.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:
Did I feel uneasy about what they were doing? Most definitely yes. Flaunting the spirituality and the culture of another people like this, claiming some sort of religious status, without their consent or approval, is a case of cultural appropriation as far as I'm concerned.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
White people who are entertainers shouldn't wear makeup that makes them look like black people. There is no problem with black people who are entertainers wearing makeup that makes them look like black people.

---

But is there a problem with black entertainers (Eddie Murphy, say) wearing makeup that makes them look like white people? That's the real comparison.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
And once you have been informed about the context and the cultural connotations of your actions the situation changes. It ceases to be "I am trying to do this and my intent isn't racist" and becomes "I am trying to do this and I genuinely do not care if I come off as a racist." At which point you are someone who doesn't care if they come off as a racist and can hardly complain when you are taken for one.
[...]
The third is "WTF? That's nothing like that". Which is step back time for both sides.

---

quote:

---

This isn't true. I don't think anyone on that thread was accusing Man U of doing more than making a mistake in graphic design and then not vetting it properly.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eliab:

Anyway, I've just got home from a LARP event in which one scene involved swing dancing - a style of dance obviously African-American in origin. Of the 30 or so dancers, I reckon 20+ were white British, 10 or so were other white Europeans, Chinese and Asian. I think 1 was black British, and 1 was white American. Cultural appropriation? Immoral? Offensive? And if it was, who was the more culpable - the white American or the black Brit?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eliab:


Sometimes, I accept with regret, we can't always ignore race. But sometimes we can. And when we can, we should. There are cultural expressions about which we can be genuinely colour-blind. So why not do that?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You want to share? Share opportunity. Share equal treatment.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Moo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You want to share? Share opportunity. Share equal treatment.

---

The problem is that most of the white people who want to borrow black dancing and music styles

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
These discussions always make me tired, angry, frustrated and sad. Mostly sad.
I don't see anyone here saying white people cannot use black things. (History shows this to be an unsuccessful tactic, regardless).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by lilBuddha:
TBut sharing should be about more than the toys, the fun things.
You want to share? Share opportunity. Share equal treatment.

---

quote:

---

k-mann: So why are you a Christian, then?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

---

k-mann: So why are you a Christian, then?

---

I think it's very important to realize that we have a 'borrowed' religion.

---

What do you mean "we"?
 

---

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChastMastr:
...

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

---

k-mann: So why are you a Christian, then?

---

I think it's very important to realize that we have a 'borrowed' religion.

---

What do you mean "we"?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Enoch:
I think what LeRoc might be reminding us is that Christianity is originally an offshoot of the Jewish religion

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Yes, I know. Hence "What do you mean, 'we'?"
 

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Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 

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ChastMastr: Yes, I know. Hence "What do you mean, 'we'?"

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Originally posted by LeRoc:

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ChastMastr: Yes, I know. Hence "What do you mean, 'we'?"

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Oh c'mon, you're invited!

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No, no, LOL, I'm Jewish by blood down the matriarchal line of descent (Austrian and Hungarian Jews, mixed with German Gentile). Wasn't raised in any of the religion (other than guilt and being told to keep it secret when I was a kid so I wouldn't be attacked, because my mother was (1) born in 1928 and (2) paranoid), or indeed in any religion, but have always taken an interest in it, and when I became a Christian, I took even more of an interest in my heritage.

Rather sadly my mother's brother didn't even tell his own kids about his Jewish ancestry till I spilled the beans one day, and I seem to be the only one of that entire branch of the family tree to care about it at all, but I try to at least do something for some of the holidays, and I make very good matzoh ball soup and latkes.

Come over some time, we'll nosh!
 

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Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :
 

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Originally posted by orfeo:

If there's a power imbalance, you don't solve it by playing tit for tat. You solve it by saying "yes, you can share in this so long as I can share in that".

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Originally posted by chris stiles:

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Originally posted by orfeo:

If there's a power imbalance, you don't solve it by playing tit for tat. You solve it by saying "yes, you can share in this so long as I can share in that".

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This isn't about sharing.

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You want to share? Share opportunity. Share equal treatment.

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Originally posted by chris stiles:
This is about one group playing a style associated with another group whilst simultaneously acting out a set of negative stereotypes associated with another group (see Iggy Azalea comments upthread).

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ChastMastr: No, no, LOL, I'm Jewish by blood down the matriarchal line of descent

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ChastMastr: Come over some time, we'll nosh!

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That would be great. (Although I have no idea what 'to nosh' means, so I'm a bit worried what I just assented to )
 

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Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :
 

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Originally posted by Eliab:

I don’t think anyone has made any sort of convincing case that Iggy Azalea (about whom I know nothing) is acting out negative stereotypes.

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But even if she is, I really don’t see how that has any bearing on how Taylor Swift ought to dance.

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Originally posted by Eliab:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You want to share? Share opportunity. Share equal treatment.

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You’re shifting the goalposts a fair bit there.

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Originally posted by Eliab:

Can we not take it as a given that this is a discussion between non-racists, that we would all like to see a truly equal society (even if we differ about how to get there from here), and in our personal and professional lives try to treat people fairly?

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Originally posted by Eliab:

What we’re arguing about is (1) whether a white artist ought to allow their style to be influenced by black artists; and (2) whether they are de facto racist if they do.

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Originally posted by Eliab:

I’m slightly disappointed that no one answered my question about how has the most right to enjoy African-American dancing – a black Briton or a white American? I asked it as a direct consequence of a real life event, not as a trap question, but it seems to me that it’s a dilemma for your side.

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Originally posted by Eliab:

It would be saying in effect that black culture, though ostensibly produced by Americans, isn’t, and can’t be, truly American culture. Black Europeans might be appropriate consumers of it, but white Americans (that is, most Americans) are not.

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Originally posted by Eliab:
That, surely, cannot be tolerable.

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Originally posted by Eliab:

None of that is to argue against sensitivity, respect, commercial fairness, artistic integrity and racial equality. None of us want to see cultural influences being used to excuse racial stereotyping or abuse. But the solution cannot be to tell people who aren’t racists, and whom we have no fair reason to think are racists, that certain cultural expressions are unavailable to them because of their race.

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Black British musical culture is in large part African-American Music culture. It is more than this, yes, but it is an integral part of. Black Americans tend not to see beyond colour. In America, there is much less a distinction than elsewhere. Black is Black is Black is Black.
IME, most Americans, regardless of colour, would not see a Black Briton as capable of appropriation. To them, it would be their culture.

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
(Although I have no idea what 'to nosh' means, so I'm a bit worried what I just assented to )

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Originally posted by saysay:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Black British musical culture is in large part African-American Music culture. It is more than this, yes, but it is an integral part of. Black Americans tend not to see beyond colour. In America, there is much less a distinction than elsewhere. Black is Black is Black is Black.
IME, most Americans, regardless of colour, would not see a Black Briton as capable of appropriation. To them, it would be their culture.

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Cough, splutter, cough. I know the British still think that they won the War of 1812, but. No. Just no.

There is not one black culture in America. Black is not Black is not Black is not Black.

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