Thread: Eccles: Is it really worth it? Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.
To visit this thread, use this URL:
http://forum.ship-of-fools.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=001262
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
On Sunday evening I worshipped at an Anglican church with a strong choral tradition.
However, apart from the Choir and the Vicar, there were precisely five people in the congregation, including the Beadle (if that's the right word), myself and the Vicar's mother, visiting for the weekend. So only two "ordinary" worshippers.
I grant that it was the end of school half-term and that some people may have been away ... but it did struck me that this was a costly and time-consuming exercise, especially as there had been three other services during the day.
I understand both the principle of singing the regular Office, and that praise can be offered to God even with no congregation present. But is it too utilitarian to suggest that this approach is no longer affordable and sensible?
[ 10. January 2015, 16:49: Message edited by: seasick ]
Posted by TheAlethiophile (# 16870) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
But is it too utilitarian to suggest that this approach is no longer affordable and sensible?
I would suggest a pertinent passage to look at would be
John 12:1-8. I admit my gut instinct is to side with Judas and say that it is impractical and that if a significant cost is being incurred to deem it unnecessary, suggesting some cut backs.
Yet Jesus' response seems to indicate that worship is more important. As someone who works in finance, with stewardship over other people's money, I find this quite a tough passage to swallow.
I could argue either way, but both seem to come down to a matter of what takes priority: worship or practicality. Tough call.
Posted by ken (# 2460) on
:
How many in the choir?
Perhaps the choir are the congregation?
Posted by bib (# 13074) on
:
Certainly when we have Choral Evensong the choir is often the same size as the congregation or even a little bigger. This doesn't really worry me as the small gathering is often more worshipful than the large congregation of the morning. Ours is an historic church and even with a small congregation there is often the sensation of the presence of the many thousands of worshippers who have sat in the church in years past.I actually find this very comforting.
Posted by Wm Dewy (# 16712) on
:
I was taught that we sing the Office to the greater Glory of God and not for the entertainment of our fellow sinners.
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
:
Yes, ken has it right - the choir is the congregation (or part of it).
It may well be that Choral Evensong is a very important part of the spiritual life of the choir members (or some of them), and to do away with it would possibly diminish that life.......IYSWIM.
Does the parish of the OP pay its choir? For if they are all volunteers, so to speak, there is surely minimal cost over and above heating and lighting the church.
Could the same service be held in a smaller space e.g. the chancel, with choir on one side and t'others on t'other side? I've been to an Evensong or two where this has worked well.
Ian J.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Perhaps the choir are the congregation?
True ... but I don't think they would have been there had it been a "said" service; certainly not the young choristers.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Does the parish of the OP pay its choir? For if they are all volunteers, so to speak, there is surely minimal cost over and above heating and lighting the church.
That is the question to which I have no complete answer. I know that the youngsters receive an honorarium (but it may not be on a "per service" basis); the Music Director is on a salary; I suspect the organist receives a fee; I simply don't know about the older gentlemen singers. It is all an Anglican mystery to me!
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
How many angels and archangels turned up?
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Perhaps the choir are the congregation?
True ... but I don't think they would have been there had it been a "said" service; certainly not the young choristers.
Well there you go then - a very good reason for the service being sung!
(I'm not sure I follow the point about the service being 'expensive' however - parish musicians are not usually paid so the only cost is the lighting I guess).
Posted by Hairy Biker (# 12086) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
It may well be that Choral Evensong is a very important part of the spiritual life of the choir members (or some of them), and to do away with it would possibly diminish that life.......IYSWIM.
My experience of churches with a strong choral tradition has been that the choir is substantially atheist and attend only for the sake of making beautiful music with people whose company they enjoy. The church gives them a cheap venue in which to perform, subsidised by the poor of the parish. (It may be the case that choir members are large donors to the church in these parishes; I have no information on the details of the parishes I know.)
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
:
WTF? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
This may be true of some choristers, but surely not the majority? And, anyway, how can you tell (e.g. at a service of Choral Evensong) whether the choristers are or are not atheists?
Ian J.
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
But is it too utilitarian to suggest that this approach is no longer affordable and sensible?
Yes.
Posted by Gottschalk (# 13175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
It may well be that Choral Evensong is a very important part of the spiritual life of the choir members (or some of them), and to do away with it would possibly diminish that life.......IYSWIM.
My experience of churches with a strong choral tradition has been that the choir is substantially atheist and attend only for the sake of making beautiful music with people whose company they enjoy. The church gives them a cheap venue in which to perform, subsidised by the poor of the parish. (It may be the case that choir members are large donors to the church in these parishes; I have no information on the details of the parishes I know.)
In a university college setting, this may be true of half if not more of the choir. Some are choral scholars, others like the performance, especially the camper young men.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
As a non-CofE person I appreciate Sung Evensong these days, even though it's not terribly popular at the church where I go. Perhaps the CofE is trying to maintain the tradition at a small number of churches in each area while cutting things back elsewhere?
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
:
Sorry, but ISTM to be arrogant and judgemental to assume (as it were) that those who like, enjoy, and appreciate Choral Evensong may somehow be either atheists or *gasp* gay (or even both)......
Not sure about some sort of deliberate local provision, though it does look that way in some places, cathedrals excepted, of course. No harm in that, I think, as long as such services are well-presented and well-advertised!
Ian J.
Posted by Gottschalk (# 13175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Sorry, but ISTM to be arrogant and judgemental to assume (as it were) that those who like, enjoy, and appreciate Choral Evensong may somehow be either atheists or *gasp* gay (or even both)......
Not sure about some sort of deliberate local provision, though it does look that way in some places, cathedrals excepted, of course. No harm in that, I think, as long as such services are well-presented and well-advertised!
Ian J.
There was neither arrogance nor malice intended nor any assumption made. I'm speaking of an environment in which I live and work daily.
As long as a choir performs well I have no problem whatsoever with its members' beliefs or tastes. For a good performance is praise to God, even where the performers might not intend it.
[ 25. February 2014, 15:34: Message edited by: Gottschalk ]
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on
:
ISTM - speaking as a member of a choir - that Choral Evensong is a service that is really for the benefit of the musicians. I don't like attending Evensong as a member of the congregation, but on the rare occasions when our church does it I have enjoyed singing it.
Oh - and just for the record - I am most definitely not an atheist. I have not cross-examined all the other members of my church choir on their theological beliefs (if any) but all the ones I know well are not atheists either.
I should imagine that a fair number of the congregation at any cathedral evensong will be tourists trying to avoid the entrance fee; they may or may not be atheists. I once refused to go to Evensong at the local cathedral because I'd already been to church once that day. The guy who invited me to go was an agnostic.
And if some members of the choir are only there because they like the music, what of it? Does evangelism only count if you're waving a Bible in someone's face and foaming at the mouth? How can you be sure that the Holy Spirit isn't working on non-Christian members of the choir through their love of choral singing?
Fifteen years or so after the incident I mentioned earlier, that agnostic was a regular member of the cathedral congregation (and yes - I was surprised).
Posted by Poppy (# 2000) on
:
We are the last church in the town to offer any form of regular evening worship and we have sung or choral evensong for 3 out of 4/5 weeks of the month. Generally the choir has 12-18 members and the congregation is between 2-10. Whist the choir continue to want to worship in this way it will continue but questions are asked about how viable this is in the long term as the church is very expensive to heat in the winter. Our Messy Church style late Sunday afternoon early evening service which happens on one Sunday a month brings in 50-70 people.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Sorry, but ISTM to be arrogant and judgemental to assume (as it were) that those who like, enjoy, and appreciate Choral Evensong may somehow be either atheists or *gasp* gay (or even both)......
Yes it is.
Our choir changes every three years, it being the university church choir, so it varies but, currently only three of the don't come to the rail for communion.
I relish the chance of 'preaching to the choir'.
Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on
:
OhMyGoodness. Just for the record: i adore choral evensong and hey, am not musician, chorister, gay or a atheist.( And even were i, so what?)
Nor am i doging cathedral entrance fees.
Why provide choral evensong? Because after a busy day, choral evensong is a haven of peace in an otherwise hectic world.
God BLESS any church which provides it
[ 25. February 2014, 16:14: Message edited by: Ethne Alba ]
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Gottschalk:
There was neither arrogance nor malice intended nor any assumption made. I'm speaking of an environment in which I live and work daily.
That is as may be but please try to refrain from using terms or arguments which could be construed as homophobic. It is quite clear that you *are* making assumptions - specifically, about the motives of church-goers - which do not, I think, help the discussion.
dj_ordinaire, Eccles host
Posted by Vade Mecum (# 17688) on
:
To say that services sans congregations are pointless shows a dispiriting lack of faith in the power of prayer, I should think. And since he who sings prays twice and all that...
Some of the least well attended services at my church are the most prayerful (to me: I have no idea what High Mass is like for everyone else, but for me it's busy): without said Mattins before Sunday Mass, which is only ever attended by priest and servers, I would feel adrift during the Mass. Who's to say that some, if not all, of those present at a scantly attended choral evensong feel the same way?
The office is primarily a wellspring from which to draw strength, particularly for the clergy and chapter (and a regular choir and severs is much the same thing in many parish churches) not a bums-on-seats evangelising opportunity (though it can be: choral evensong brought me to the faith, and I know I am not alone). To obsess about how well it is attended, or how much it costs, is t miss the point.
Posted by Gottschalk (# 13175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by Gottschalk:
There was neither arrogance nor malice intended nor any assumption made. I'm speaking of an environment in which I live and work daily.
That is as may be but please try to refrain from using terms or arguments which could be construed as homophobic. It is quite clear that you *are* making assumptions - specifically, about the motives of church-goers - which do not, I think, help the discussion.
dj_ordinaire, Eccles host
Dear Host,
With all due respect, and a clarification - I was speaking of people I know. Therefore I was not assuming anything.
Posted by seasick (# 48) on
:
Gottschalk: If you wish to respond to a hostly ruling in any way then the place for that is the Styx. Please start a thread there if you wish to clarify, challenge or otherwise respond to any aspect of dj_ordinaire's post.
seasick, Eccles host
Posted by South Coast Kevin (# 16130) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
To obsess about how well it is attended, or how much it costs, is t miss the point.
For an organisation with unlimited money and other resources, I agree that obsessing about the cost would be missing the point. But which organisations have unlimited money? For all those whose funds are limited, surely they have to consider whether running a service with such a low attendance is a good use of that money.
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
:
I suppose an alabaster jar of ointment would be out of the question then.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
I've heard Evensong described on the Ship as 'one of the CofE's best kept secrets'. I don't know why it should be a secret. If there are people out there who might benefit from that sort of thing why isn't more said about it?
Many folk probably don't even realise that such services are available outside cathedrals. I wouldn't have known much about Evensong if the loss of my own church and my uncertainty afterwards hadn't forced me to consider what a nearby CofE church had to offer.
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
:
Making an effort to produce the best you can in musical terms is part of a long tradition including the masons and artists who did the same with their skills. Many of the most amazing features in cathedrals and churches are so high up, they cannot be seen with the naked eye. So they can only be for God, not man.
The choir most definitely are also congregation. There are plenty of choral societies which perform sacred music, so in most cases church choristers are there for more than the singing (even if, in some cases, that need is not overtly named). Choir humour is typically self-deprecating, so you will rarely hear a chorister explaining their faith in terribly earnest tones, but the faith can be very deep indeed. To assert otherwise is quite offensive.
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
:
(cross posted with Svitlana) I think years ago, knowledge of Evensong was an assumed given. Now, you are right, it does need to be promoted / advertised more. People need an explanation of what happens and why it can be so beneficial to attend. Also, that there is nothing to be 'frightened' of (possibly a help to those who feel nervous about the whole Eucharist thing).
Perhaps Westminster Abbey could play a part in this, they have the best attended evensongs I've ever come across. The message needs to get out that, once people have returned home again, they can find these services (albeit with not such a world famous choir) taking place in towns and cities throughout the land.
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
:
We get 50 odd to Choral Evensong, including the choir. It's partly because it is run the night that the all-age lay-led worship runs in the morning, and people who prefer a more traditional service come to Evensong in preference. The experimental alternative Sunday evening services are the ones that get fewer attendees.
Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
How many angels and archangels turned up?
And God was there.
I'm sure he'd miss it if no one came.
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on
:
South Coast Kevin: quote:
For all those whose funds are limited, surely they have to consider whether running a service with such a low attendance is a good use of that money.
Many C of E services run with congregations of around 30. An Evensong attended by five people plus a choir of 20 isn't far off that mark.
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
:
1. St Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
2. Prayer of St Chrysostom ... when two or three are gathered together in thy Name thou wilt grant their requests:....
IME a proper, well-conducted service of Evensong has been the way in to church for many people, especially those who have had minimal formal religious experience growing up and who encounter it as adults. Unlike a communion service, Evensong (or Matins, for that matter) makes no demands on a chance visitor.
You may also find that Evensong is the only occasion on which complete Psalms are used in a liturgy. IMO the way that the Psalms have been sidelined in most parishes is profoundly depressing: the subject matter covered by Psalms is very wide-ranging and can be 'relevant' to so many situations.
Quite apart from that, the BCP Psalms are beautiful.
As for the sheer number of choir: in my own church it is through the choir and its music that most of the new members of the congregation in the last 15 years have been added.
Moreover, despite the 'Family' service, it is only those families with children in the choir who keep on coming after the last child has got the place at the local CofE school. And the only teenagers who come regularly are those in the choir - and they come back in the vacations after they have gone on to university.
Posted by Basilica (# 16965) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
IME a proper, well-conducted service of Evensong has been the way in to church for many people, especially those who have had minimal formal religious experience growing up and who encounter it as adults. Unlike a communion service, Evensong (or Matins, for that matter) makes no demands on a chance visitor.
Evensong is indeed an enormously powerful evangelistic tool. Having worked in a cathedral with daily evensong, I know numerous people whose first serious involvement with the Church was at 5pm on a weekday after work. Many of them went on to much greater involvement and some to ordination.
Another part of it is that evensong in many ways matches what people (certainly in some contexts) expect the Church to provide. So when they go along, it doesn't seem entirely foreign.
Posted by Amos (# 44) on
:
Evensong is greatly loved by those who know it, and for those who discover it, it's like coming across a wonderful secret. It has great evangelistic power; chaplains in colleges and cathedrals and parish priests in those places where it is a regular service find people coming to faith who came originally just for the music.
Looking for something in the way of an encomium to put on one of our posters, I discovered this:
'More accessible than the Sistine Chapel, more inspiring than the Western Wall, more easily reached than the Dome of the Rock, Sung Evensong represents at once the most rousing and soothing aspects of faith.'
Posted by Chorister (# 473) on
:
When people have been shopping or playing tourist in a cathedral city, there's nothing better than resting weary legs and tired minds at evensong to end the day. Perhaps a sign could be put outside the cathedrals for an hour before the service starts, announcing this fact? We do seem to live in a culture, these days, when people don't turn up to anything unless it is overtly advertised.
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
:
posted by Chorister quote:
We do seem to live in a culture, these days, when people don't turn up to anything unless it is overtly advertised.
And when they turn up they expect a degree of professionalism, which is why offering services which are badly planned, chaotic, with service sheets full of typos, followed by dreadful coffee is more effective at keeping people out of church than any fire-and-brimstone sermon.
The beauty of Evensong and Matins is that they're almost impossible to foul-up. And a well-rehearsed choir - even just singing hymns - signing with feeling and sympathy for words and music may reach more hearts than a puerile or random sermon.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
When people have been shopping or playing tourist in a cathedral city, there's nothing better than resting weary legs and tired minds at evensong to end the day. Perhaps a sign could be put outside the cathedrals for an hour before the service starts, announcing this fact?
I agree entirely - but we are not a cathedral city or a tourist destination. In fact the town centre is completely "dead" on Sundays after 4 pm. So there is no "passing trade", so to speak - people will only come to worship if they have made a prior decision, perhaps by seeing posters earlier or looking up the website.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
The beauty of Evensong and Matins is that they're almost impossible to foul-up.
Oh, I don't know. I went to Oxford last year, and we worshipped for two nights running at a Collegiate church (I choose my words wisely). On the first night the "proper" choir sang, and it was brilliant. The following night the "student" choir sang, and it was definitely not brilliant.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I've heard Evensong described on the Ship as 'one of the CofE's best kept secrets'.
I call it 'the jewel in the crown of Anglican worship.'
Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
... The beauty of Evensong and Matins is that they're almost impossible to foul-up. ...
I regret that that just is not true. When one now encounters Evensong, or the much rarer these days Matins, it is usually done with a proper choir that has chosen to do it that way. That was not how we usually experienced them back in the days when all services were 1662. What a typical village church made of them in the 1960s was frequently excruciating. The set canticles were usually fairly bad, but a poor choir trying to lead an unmusical congregation chanting an unfamiliar psalm from a prayer book which was unpointed - but they wouldn't have been able to read pointing anyway - was a religious experience in a dimension special and peculiar to itself.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
When people have been shopping or playing tourist in a cathedral city, there's nothing better than resting weary legs and tired minds at evensong to end the day. Perhaps a sign could be put outside the cathedrals for an hour before the service starts, announcing this fact?
I agree entirely - but we are not a cathedral city or a tourist destination. In fact the town centre is completely "dead" on Sundays after 4 pm. So there is no "passing trade", so to speak - people will only come to worship if they have made a prior decision, perhaps by seeing posters earlier or looking up the website.
Actually, if your town has nothing going for it after 4pm on Sundays that's probably all the more reason to have at least one church offering an evening service of some sort. But it should be advertised so people have some idea of what it's about.
The main issue I have, though, is that IME once a church puts a stop to one of its options for worship or fellowship, it's extremely hard to start again at a later point. Churches shouldn't just stop doing something unless they've reflected on how to replace that gap in some other way. Perhaps it's expensive to have regular Evensong with a choir of 10 and only 5 attenders (say) - but what will those 15 people do if Evensong is dropped? Will their commitment to that church wane? If the church has a regular attendance of 50 people a week, 15 people is 30% of that, which is rather significant.
I think churches should put all of their services under review and to deconstruct what they do, and why they do it. But until they do that, cutting down on services for financial reasons alone will probably exacerbate their problems. Closing churches just to save money has a similar effect.
Posted by venbede (# 16669) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
[ What a typical village church made of them in the 1960s was frequently excruciating. The set canticles were usually fairly bad, but a poor choir trying to lead an unmusical congregation chanting an unfamiliar psalm from a prayer book which was unpointed - but they wouldn't have been able to read pointing anyway - was a religious experience in a dimension special and peculiar to itself.
Quite. I can't be doing with Anglican chant sung in unison by a congregation - why can't we have Gregorian chant such as St Gregory who evanglised us be proxy wanted?
But the answer to the OP is that it is none of our business what the church in question does. If they choose to continue with Evensong with a minimal number of attenders, that is up to them.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
But the answer to the OP is that it is none of our business what the church in question does. If they choose to continue with Evensong with a minimal number of attenders, that is up to them.
I don't disagree with that at all ... but it has been interesting to read the comments.
Posted by Garasu (# 17152) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I can't be doing with Anglican chant sung in unison by a congregation - why can't we have Gregorian chant such as St Gregory who evanglised us be proxy wanted?
He wanted it sung out of sync?
Posted by Angloid (# 159) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
. In fact the town centre is completely "dead" on Sundays after 4 pm. So there is no "passing trade", so to speak - people will only come to worship if they have made a prior decision, perhaps by seeing posters earlier or looking up the website.
Actually, if your town has nothing going for it after 4pm on Sundays that's probably all the more reason to have at least one church offering an evening service of some sort.
Well that, or have evensong at 4pm so that it catches people who are around before they go home.
Posted by piglet (# 11803) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
... Why provide choral evensong? Because ... choral evensong is a haven of peace in an otherwise hectic world.
God BLESS any church which provides it
Well said, EA. I sing in our cathedral choir (adult, voluntary), and we're one of only four choirs in the whole of Canada that sings two fully choral services (Eucharist and Evensong) every Sunday. It matters not a whit that there are more in the choir than in the congregation for Evensong: as someone pointed out above, we're singing to the glory of God.
It's true that on weekdays, when the services are said, it's unlikely that any of the choir will be present, but that doesn't mean that we regard the choral services as mere "performances".
When I get the chance (not often enough) I thoroughly enjoy attending Evensong as a member of the congregation, especially at another cathedral or (better still) King's or St. John's in Cambridge. I invariably come away feeling inspired by the beautiful music and liturgy; the faith (or absence of it) of the singers is none of my business.
Posted by sebby (# 15147) on
:
It is to their credit that they have a choir at all . And as has been said previously, the choir is part of the congregation.
I would argue that to get such a turn out on a Sunday evening these days in the CofE is pretty good going and they should be congratulated.
Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
. In fact the town centre is completely "dead" on Sundays after 4 pm. So there is no "passing trade", so to speak - people will only come to worship if they have made a prior decision, perhaps by seeing posters earlier or looking up the website.
Actually, if your town has nothing going for it after 4pm on Sundays that's probably all the more reason to have at least one church offering an evening service of some sort.
Well that, or have evensong at 4pm so that it catches people who are around before they go home.
and stops those who would come out specially for an evening service from coming out. 4pm is not evening! If you have things you must do during the day, 4pm is almost certainly in the middle of the time you are planning to do them in.
I should perhaps say I am not going to evensong tonight at the Cathedral for this very reason.
Jengie
[ 02. March 2014, 16:40: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
Posted by Adrian1 (# 3994) on
:
I was sorry to read about the OP's experience but, sadly, in rural and some town parish churches it's not an uncommon occurence. Some atre better attended than others but, generally speaking, Cathedral Choral Evensongs are in the main well attended nowadays. As a regular 'customer' of four cathedrals in the Midlands and North of England I can vouch for that.
Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on
:
Thought of this thread this evening when surveying the pews from my loft during our Ash Wednesday service.
Congregation 41 - of whom 15 were choir parents or partners plus the PP's wife
Choir 16 adults, 4 juniors
Servers 4
Plus me and the PP
But we did the whole thing properly - ashes 'n' all.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
I can understand the OP, coming as it does from a Nonconformist. In a Nonconformist setting, nothing like a sparsely attended Sung Evensong would make much sense. There'd be no national tradition to maintain, and no army of chorists who expect the church to recognise their skills and their spirituality. There'd be no money to subsidise a sparsely attended evening service; extra funds would be put to use elsewhere.
Maintaining tradition is usually the opposite of what a Nonconformist church needs to do to create interest or to grow, whereas ISTM that being 'traditional' is something the CofE has to make space for, because this is what a lot of people expect when they enter an Anglican church.
Posted by Dal Segno (# 14673) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I relish the chance of 'preaching to the choir'.
That phrase means completely different things on the two sides of the pond.
In the USA, it means preaching to those who are the most dedicated followers of Jesus, who do not need to hear the gospel because they live it, who are in the choir because they love to sing praise to their God.
In the UK, it seems to mean preaching to the people who like singing good music.
Posted by dj_ordinaire (# 4643) on
:
While I can't speak for leo, I suspect the use of inverted commas in his quote indicates that he was commenting ironically on the usual use of the term (which is used as an idiom in Britain in the same way..)!
Posted by Jane R (# 331) on
:
Dal Segno: quote:
That phrase means completely different things on the two sides of the pond.
In the USA, it means preaching to those who are the most dedicated followers of Jesus, who do not need to hear the gospel because they live it, who are in the choir because they love to sing praise to their God.
In the UK, it seems to mean preaching to the people who like singing good music.
The two sets are not mutually exclusive, you know.
[ 07. March 2014, 08:26: Message edited by: Jane R ]
Posted by agingjb (# 16555) on
:
In the UK, I've never heard "preaching to the choir" used to mean anything but talking to an audience already on the side of the speaker, usually in a political context.
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
:
I've 'preached to the choir' meself. 1662 BCP Evensong at a village church - me officiating and preaching (by invitation - parish in interregnum). 30 in the choir, neatly arrayed in the choir stalls in the chancel - 3 in the nave viz. the verger, Mrs. Ian J, and Mrs. Ian J's mother......
......so when I entered the pulpit to preach, I naturally turned mostly (but not entirely) east-ish, in order to 'preach to the choir'!
BTW, 34 of us, in total, in this particular church, at that particular time in their history, was not at all a low turn-out. I hesitate, however, to attribute that to the fame of the visiting preacher......
Ian J.
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
While I can't speak for leo, I suspect the use of inverted commas in his quote indicates that he was commenting ironically on the usual use of the term (which is used as an idiom in Britain in the same way..)!
Indeed.
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I can understand the OP, coming as it does from a Nonconformist. In a Nonconformist setting, nothing like a sparsely attended Sung Evensong would make much sense. There'd be no national tradition to maintain, and no army of chorists who expect the church to recognise their skills and their spirituality. There'd be no money to subsidise a sparsely attended evening service; extra funds would be put to use elsewhere.
Maintaining tradition is usually the opposite of what a Nonconformist church needs to do to create interest or to grow, whereas ISTM that being 'traditional' is something the CofE has to make space for, because this is what a lot of people expect when they enter an Anglican church.
I'm not sure it's just about maintaining tradition. Choral music and especially at Evensong is intrinsic to Anglican culture in the same way that congregational singing is for historic working-class Nonconformity (Nonconformism?). Even RCs don't have quite the same musical/singing culture that the CoE does (I am not sure if it extends to the other parts of the Anglican Communion). I think the lack of it in evangelical Anglicanism really separates them from the rest of the CoE.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
The point is that Baptists, for example, don't have a particular tradition/culture to maintain, as far as music is concerned. Even the Methodists, whose congregational singing is often said to be better than the CofE's, don't expect to maintain well-trained choirs and to open the churches for them and a handful of others on Sunday evenings.
(Apparently, some of the posher Nonconformists used to have paid ones in Edwardian times, but that doesn't seem to have lasted very long. The churches didn't feel culturally obliged to maintain these choirs when the costs of doing so became very high.)
Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The point is that Baptists, for example, don't have a particular tradition/culture to maintain, as far as music is concerned. Even the Methodists, whose congregational singing is often said to be better than the CofE's, don't expect to maintain well-trained choirs and to open the churches for them and a handful of others on Sunday evenings.
(Apparently, some of the posher Nonconformists used to have paid ones in Edwardian times, but that doesn't seem to have lasted very long. The churches didn't feel culturally obliged to maintain these choirs when the costs of doing so became very high.)
Well obviously a denomination known for congregational singing wouldn't expect to maintain well-trained choirs, otherwise they would be known for choral singing. And I would guess that a different singing culture to Anglicanism is part of being non-Established and choosing to not conform. Baptists surely have a strong Revivalist musical culture, surely?
I know what the point is, I was commenting on the historical and cultural basis of that point.
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
I don't think I'm disagreeing with you, really.
Funnily enough, I'd never really considered that having trained choirs was the obvious outcome of not emphasising congregational singing. (Or is it the other way round?) I'm not sure that other cultures necessarily have the same dichotomy between congregational singing and trained choirs.
Posted by piglet (# 11803) on
:
My husband, who's been a church/cathedral organist/choirmaster for over 40 years, reckons that the quality of congregational singing is usually in inverse proportion to the quality of the choir; if the choir's good, the congregation tend not to bother.
YMMV though.
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The point is that Baptists, for example, don't have a particular tradition/culture to maintain, as far as music is concerned. Even the Methodists, whose congregational singing is often said to be better than the CofE's, don't expect to maintain well-trained choirs and to open the churches for them and a handful of others on Sunday evenings.
Our church, which is Baptist/URC, does have a small robed (volunteer) choir which sings an anthem every Sunday morning. Three times a year (Harvest, Christmas and Palm Sunday) we hold a Choral Evening Service.
However I think we would be fairly pragmatic/utilitarian in thinking about our services: if no-one came (except for the choir), we'd scrap them and perhaps try something else. And that's really the point I was making to start with.
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Baptists surely have a strong Revivalist musical culture, surely?
Most do, but not all: there is also a "Baptist High Church" culture which can be found at places like Bloomsbury Central in London and a few other cases.
[ 13. March 2014, 13:58: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on
:
Hmm. IME, the two congregational hymns at our local Cathedral's Sunday Evensong tend to be sung with some enthusiasm, and, indeed, gusto!
This may be because the congregation is also located in the Quire, to east and west of the choir stalls proper, so propinquity may well help. If the people were a long way away, e.g. in the Nave, east of the Quire and its screen, the story would be different......
Ian J.
Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on
:
About 25 years ago, I was at a conference in Quebec City. There was an English service advertised for the cathedral before the French language service later. There was a priest, and 4 of us in total. All were there about 15 minutes ahead of time, all of us travellers. The other two were from New Jersey. The priest come and introduced himself, and asked if any of us were lay readers, and I ended up with the epistle. We moved to the front, and the worship was poignant and meaningful. I remember this frequently a quarter century later. We sang from the common hymn book at the time, which is a Good Thing, a hymnal that everyone knows. I think the organist must have turned it down a bit until the recessional which vibrated my bones.
So I think in answer to the thread title question is: it sure can be.
[ 13. March 2014, 13:59: Message edited by: no prophet ]
Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I understand both the principle of singing the regular Office, and that praise can be offered to God even with no congregation present. But is it too utilitarian to suggest that this approach is no longer affordable and sensible?
I think the Office is less concerned about attendance numbers than any other liturgy. It goes ahead even if it's just an Officiant and the holy angels. One of our officiants sometimes says, "The Office admits of no congregation." It's kept no matter what.
Whether organist and choir are needed every time is another matter.
Posted by WearyPilgrim (# 14593) on
:
Having read all these posts, the sense I have --- as a non-Anglican --- is that Choral Evensong is not a means of entertainment, but worship for the sake of worship.
What a welcome concept!
I'm sure God approves. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on
:
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I understand both the principle of singing the regular Office, and that praise can be offered to God even with no congregation present. But is it too utilitarian to suggest that this approach is no longer affordable and sensible?
I think the Office is less concerned about attendance numbers than any other liturgy. It goes ahead even if it's just an Officiant and the holy angels. One of our officiants sometimes says, "The Office admits of no congregation." It's kept no matter what.
OTOH, my impression is that a large majority of CofE churches don't have Evensong. Does this mean that many churches offering Evensong in the past did indeed decide that the lack of a decent congregation was a good reason to give up on it? Or was it always only on offer at a select few churches?
[ 07. June 2014, 18:53: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posted by leo (# 1458) on
:
Nearly all C of E churches did Evensong before a TV series called 'The Fortsyte Saga' was aired (ion the 1960s, I think). Since people didn't have video recorders back then, they had to miss church if they were to watch it. The decline of Evensong is thought to date back to then.
Having said that, i must get ready to preach at our Whitsunday Choral Evensong this evening at 1800!
Posted by Baptist Trainfan (# 15128) on
:
Yes, and Zeffirelli's "Jesus of Nazareth" a few years later didn't help either!
In Nonconformist circles there had been a "norm" of attending services two (or even three!) times each Sunday ... that has long gone for most folk.
These days 10 is a pretty good number to have at our evening service.
[ 08. June 2014, 16:06: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on
:
I thought the office was evening prayer - which can be expanded to evensong and choral evensong.
(We've, well, me when I was still doing it, read the evening office on Sunday throughout August and for Bank Holidays and other random dates. It was partly to have a consistent service at 6pm on a Sunday night and partly to have the church open on a Sunday evening. This is at a church which has some 6pm Sunday services, including a monthly second Sunday choral evensong, another church in the team also ran a monthly choral evensong on the third Sunday, but they do get changed around things like Remembrance Sunday. A steady trickle of people came through the door for somewhere to be on a Sunday evening: people who'd spent the day at the local hospice and had been driving around trying to find a church open to light a candle and pray, people who couldn't make Sunday morning and wanted to go to church on a Sunday, lots of other reasons, but the numbers were never huge. But it almost always felt like a valuable ministry for those people.)
© Ship of Fools 2016
UBB.classicTM
6.5.0