Ship of Fools: Eccles: Churchmanship of Anglican religious orders in England

Thread: Eccles: Churchmanship of Anglican religious orders in England Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

Does anyone know how the various Anglican religious orders in England vary by churchmanship? I am mostly thinking of women's orders, though probably because there are just more Anglican nuns than monks! I am still interested in all orders though. For example, is the Community of St Mary the Virgin FiF in all their houses, or just in Walsingham? The religious order I am most familiar with is the Community of the Holy Name in Derby, but I am not sure of their churchmanship.

Usual DH clarification - I'm not discussing the merits of FiF or any other churchmanship position, just which orders belong in which group.

[ 10. January 2015, 16:51: Message edited by: seasick ]

Posted by TomM (# 4618) on :

As far as I'm aware, they are all broadly catholic - other brands seem less interested in the traditional religious life! Eucharistic devotion (especially amongst Franciscans), reservation and daily mass as such a part of the tradition leave it with particular roots.

Within that, there is some variety, often within communities.

Mucknell Abbey (mixed) is toward the less-traddie end of the spectrum - the daily eucharist there is celebrated in rotation by the Abbot (male, Anglican), one of the nuns (Anglican) and one of the monks (Methodist - no bishop involved in his ordination at all).

Mirfield contains a wide spectrum of views - some of the community are actively involved in the various Catholic Societies, others are fully in favour of the ordination of women to all three orders.

As a whole C/SSF are again less than traditionalist, but very mixed - many of the CSF sisters are ordained, though some of the men of SSF are also members of FiF. I believe only the priest-friars of SSF minister to the Poor Clares, not any of CSF.

I can't speak from personal association of any of the other communities, though I know Community of the Holy Cross has some links with SSC. And CHN certainly have one of their daughter houses in a liberal-catholic parish in Manchester (though it has no female clergy on staff at present) and they are very involved in the parish.

[ 22. March 2014, 11:58: Message edited by: TomM ]

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

This is not something I know much about. However, I would have thought quite a key indicator for women's orders will be whether an ordained Sister celebrates a daily Eucharist, or whether they still have a male nuns' priest.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

Tom M

quote:

I believe only the priest-friars of SSF minister to the Poor Clares, not any of CSF.

No. Firstly the Anglican order is CSC (Community of St Clare, Poor Clares are all Roman Catholic). Secondly I have been staying as a guest when a CSF Priest has been acting as Chaplain to the convent.

The stance then by the convent was that they were quite happy to have women priests but did not feel that being a priest was compatible with their contemplative vocation. They also were clearly feminist in stance, more so than I am. This included using the alternative Gloria in daily prayer.

Jengie

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

There is an evangelical Anglican order of nuns - I forget the name though. But I meant churchmanship more in terms of conservatism-liberalism, clearly most will be catholic and I thought that was obvious. Sorry!

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

The Society of the Sacred Mission, originally based at Kelham, was 'prayer book catholic'. I think they'd be described as 'affirming/liberal catholic now.'

Re the Wantage sisters, didn't they split when one of their nuns was ordained priest?

Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :

I do recall some surprise from English shipmates when (most of) the American congregation of the All Saints Sisters of the Poor swam the Tiber. In Maryland, they wear traditional black habits, keep the full Monastic Diurnal, and receive priestly ministry only from men. I gather that, to say the least, is not so in England.

Posted by TomM (# 4618) on :

@Jengie

I stand corrected!

I did mean CSC - though they are frequently referred to as Poor Clares by some in SSF!

And their position on the difference of vocation is an important one - the religious vocation is very much a different thing to the priestly one (speaking as someone trying to discern whether the call is one or the other or both!)

Posted by Galilit (# 16470) on :

The Community of St Mary the Virgin, Wantage, Oxon have now split - 10 of the nuns now formed into The Sisters of the Blessed Virgin Mary; under Rome via the Ordinariate.

Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :

Alton Abbey is the sunny side of Anglo-Catholic. We used the Roman Missal until the new translation; now it's CW with B5 variations. Opinions vary on the OoW and several women clergy are associated with the Abbey in various ways which they presumably wouldn't do if they felt discomfited.

SSM in Hackney have at least priest-sisters.

Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :

quote:
Corrected by Qoheleth.:

SSM in Hackney have at least two priest-sisters.

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

jade Constable wrote -

quote:
- But I meant churchmanship more in terms of conservatism-liberalism...

Oh Lord. I hope that's not become the defining criterion of churchmanship (such as it is).

Do you think it might be? In your original query in the Styx you seemed to think there may be other criteria.

Posted by Gildas (# 525) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
jade Constable wrote -
quote:
- But I meant churchmanship more in terms of conservatism-liberalism...
Oh Lord. I hope that's not become the defining criterion of churchmanship (such as it is).

Do you think it might be? In your original query in the Styx you seemed to think there may be other criteria.

Well, it is with Anglican religious orders. There aren't going to be many Charismatic Evangelical Benedictines, for example. By definition if you sign up to the religious life, as an Anglican, you are going to be some kind of Catholic.

Now I take your point that if we were dealing with parish churches there might be more interesting questions as to where they stood on various Dead Horses but, for example, when I used to regularly say Mass at a Convent it was fairly obvious that they were AC and the only question was which sort of AC they were.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
jade Constable wrote -
quote:
- But I meant churchmanship more in terms of conservatism-liberalism...
Oh Lord. I hope that's not become the defining criterion of churchmanship (such as it is).

Do you think it might be? In your original query in the Styx you seemed to think there may be other criteria.

Of course it's not the only criteria for churchmanship when it comes to churches! However, religious orders are going to be overwhelmingly catholic....because they're religious orders.

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :

I know The Daily Office SSF is very closely related to CW but what about the other orders/communities?

Thurible

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

CR Mirfield use an adapted version of CW

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
... However, religious orders are going to be overwhelmingly catholic....because they're religious orders.

That's so, but I've long been puzzled why? There are quite as lot of communities that are not 'catholic', though they tend not to have permanent vows, and there's a lot about the SA looks very like an order.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

Compulsory celibacy. . Catholics get it, the rest of us find it an alien and irrelevant imposition.

Which is why the nearest to religious orders evangelicals get is the SA. And maybe some missionary societies.

Effectively all Anglican religious. orders are liberal-catholic, pretty much by definition. If the members weren't catholic they'd not feel the need to join an order. And if the weren't liberal they'd join Catholic orders. And it can't hurt that effectively all CofE bishops, deans, and cathedrals are liberal-catholic. Its the prevailing wind.

Posted by Oblatus (# 6278) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
I know The Daily Office SSF is very closely related to CW but what about the other orders/communities?

Thurible

I felt moved to research my copy of Anglican Religious Life to see how many Anglican communities in the U.K. use the Roman Catholic Liturgy of the Hours: either The Divine Office (the three-volume full LotH) or Daily Prayer (the one-volume breviary that lacks the Office of Readings). There are four:

1. Community of All Hallows, Bungay, Suffolk: Daily Prayer
2. Edgware Abbey, Middlesex: Divine Office
3. Sisters of Charity, Plympton, Plymouth: Daily Prayer
4. Society of St Margaret, Walsingham, Norfolk: Divine Office

At #4 above, they pray the Office of Readings and Morning Prayer at 7am, Midday Prayer at 12.45pm, Evening Prayer at 5, and Night Prayer at 8.45. Mass at 9.30am.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Compulsory celibacy. . Catholics get it, the rest of us find it an alien and irrelevant imposition.

Which is why the nearest to religious orders evangelicals get is the SA. And maybe some missionary societies.

Effectively all Anglican religious. orders are liberal-catholic, pretty much by definition. If the members weren't catholic they'd not feel the need to join an order. And if the weren't liberal they'd join Catholic orders. And it can't hurt that effectively all CofE bishops, deans, and cathedrals are liberal-catholic. Its the prevailing wind.

Not true - there is an evangelical order of nuns in the CoE. I forget the name, sorry, but they exist! Also not all religious are celibate - Third Order religious and oblates do not have to be celibate, nor do members of New Monasticism groups.

Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
... effectively all CofE bishops [...] are liberal-catholic.

Really??!! It doesn't feel like that in not-Westphalia, I can tell you. But that would be an egregious tangent.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
... effectively all CofE bishops [...] are liberal-catholic.
Really??!! It doesn't feel like that in not-Westphalia, I can tell you. But that would be an egregious tangent.

I missed this! Ken, this is far from the truth and you know it. +Bradford, +Chichester, +Coventry, +Liverpool....there are many bishops who are not liberal catholic, I'd say the majority. Just because Wallace Benn has gone doesn't mean it's a hotbed of liberal catholics!

Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
I know The Daily Office SSF is very closely related to CW but what about the other orders/communities?

Alton uses a modified version of the LotH, which I believe originated at Farnborough.

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

Hmmm. I don't know. Maybe ken has a point.

Probably in exactly the same way that all Anglican evangelicals are really liberal evangelicals - if they weren't they would leave the Babylonian captivity of the CofE.

No, it's not a tu quoque argument. I mean it.

I suppose there is a sort of inevitability about liberalism, at least insofar as its subscribers see it (see threads on Butterfield passim ). It's got its own teleology. Which is rather the point - it isn't the church's teleology. I'm less clear on the matter of religious conservatism, but that's a bit irrelevant as I'm even less attracted to it than liberalism.

Which brings us full circle to Anglican catholic orders. If, as Gildas suggests, they are going to be likely either liberal or conservative, then whatever else they are, they aren't catholic. Which is why I lean to agreeing with ken.

Of course, if you are evangelical CofE, then you'll need to construct your own parallel narrative on this subject.

[ 23. March 2014, 21:16: Message edited by: Honest Ron Bacardi ]

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

Ken

Really

Ok you do need the terminology to know what you are looking for, but I think the following is a good start.

Firstly lets start with Christian Intentional Communities yes all four pages of them. Then just in case we have missed some there is rather thorough listing by an off shoot of the Jesus Army and though it concentrates on Protestant ones I can safely say they are not all loony Evangelical by a mile.

Now let me do one of my favourite postings with this group of Deaconesses, and please check out their links. They are also part of Diakonia which describes itself as "World Federation of Diaconal Associations and Diaconal Communities". There are several Diaconal Associations in UK.

Now for the really old stuff. The Moravian Settlement at Ockbrook had separate houses for Brothers and Sisters as was usual in Moravian Settlements and then the Quakers (of all groups) did something similar (there is one near Sheffield, but I have only heard and not visited).

The old idea that Protestants and Evangelicals do not do religious orders/communities just does not stand up to closer inspection.

Jengie

Oh did anyone know there are now Anglican Cistercians

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

The idea of the 'church house' or intentional community that's attached to a particular congregation seems to be fairly well-known in the Methodist Church. It involves a group of young(ish) single Christians living and praying together. Their joint spiritual life is meant to feed into the wider church community.

I also know of one that's recently started up in connection with a local Baptist church. I think it also has a discipling goal, since many of the young people at that church are converts who don't have much family support in their Christian journey.

I doubt that these groups generally see themselves as 'religious orders', although that history has obviously influenced them in various ways.

More formally, the Methodists also have Deacons, who are seen as a kind of religious order. In the circuit I know, the female Deacon (not 'Deaconess') plays a vital role. Deacons are ordained, but aren't necessarily preachers.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
The idea of the 'church house' or intentional community that's attached to a particular congregation seems to be fairly well-known in the Methodist Church. It involves a group of young(ish) single Christians living and praying together. Their joint spiritual life is meant to feed into the wider church community.

I also know of one that's recently started up in connection with a local Baptist church. I think it also has a discipling goal, since many of the young people at that church are converts who don't have much family support in their Christian journey.

I doubt that these groups generally see themselves as 'religious orders', although that history has obviously influenced them in various ways.

More formally, the Methodists also have Deacons, who are seen as a kind of religious order. In the circuit I know, the female Deacon (not 'Deaconess') plays a vital role. Deacons are ordained, but aren't necessarily preachers.

I know the Methodist community house at Selly Oak well since a number of the residents are past or present SCM staff (SCM is based in Birmingham). While it isn't like a traditional religious order in terms of vows of celibacy, poverty and obedience, it certainly has a 'living in common with each other' ethos, particularly the shared garden.

Of course, the Jesus Army is a well-known evangelical group who live in community with one another - I think they used to be part of the BUGB? Celibacy is very much encouraged for Jesus Army members.

Posted by HughWillRidmee (# 15614) on :

S. O. L. I.

"The Society of Our Lady of the Isles is a religious community of the Scottish Episcopal Church and is based on the Island of Fetlar, in the north of the Shetland Isles. Prayer is at the heart of the community's existence and its rule is partly Celtic and partly Carthusian, enabling a life of solitude within a community."

Don't ask!

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

Jade

Those vows of the Franciscans, other orders have other vows. The Benedictine Vows are about half way down this page. This confusion is common and particularly ironic as the Franciscans are not true Monastics but an order of Friars, as are Dominicans and I think Jesuits.

Note broadly speaking and to my understanding there are three types of religious in the sense of a vowed life: the monastic, the friar and the hermit. They have different Charism.

Jengie

[ 24. March 2014, 08:22: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Jade

Those vows of the Franciscans, other orders have other vows. The Benedictine Vows are about half way down this page. This confusion is common and particularly ironic as the Franciscans are not true Monastics but an order of Friars, as are Dominicans and I think Jesuits.

Note broadly speaking and to my understanding there are three types of religious in the sense of a vowed life: the monastic, the friar and the hermit. They have different Charism.

Jengie

You are correct regarding monastics, friars (and sisters) and hermits/anchorites. There are also tertiaries and oblates who take some vows but do not have to live by full monastic solemn vows, and live regular lives.

Benedictine and Augustinian vows are different but there are others who take vows of chastity, poverty and obedience eg the Community of St John the Divine (who are not Franciscans). Iirc Anglican religious orders are more likely to not follow any particular rule alone, but combine elements of several rules. The Sisters of The Love Of God, I believe, are very influenced by Carmelite orders but also have other influences (though they wear the Carmelite habit and are outwardly very Carmelite).

Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Compulsory celibacy. . Catholics get it, the rest of us find it an alien and irrelevant imposition.

It occurs to me that the Shakers (all three of them) may be surprised to learn this, but more seriously I wonder if it is one factor in the relative popularity of neo-monasticism over traditional Benedictine or Augustinian religious profession. My course on religious life, for instance, was not at Trinity, but the Other Place, and a good many of my classmates were members of a local intentional community, including several couples*.

Much of this trend (I don't mean in the sense of "trendy") seems to be tied to what I suppose is called "convergent church" - the people who make it up seem to come from a largely evangelical background and idiom but "fuse" it with the sacramental/liturgical sensibility of the monastic Fathers and Mothers. The residency of Chemin Neuf at Lambeth Palace strikes me as a manifestation of the same phenomenon.

*The (in)famous and once loosely Episcopal-affiliated Community of Jesus on Cape Cod also includes entire family households, as well as single people.

[ 24. March 2014, 14:09: Message edited by: LQ ]

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

This is all very confusing, no? I once knew the Prior of the Anglican Cistercians as the curate of a (very) inner-city South London parish.....it seems half a century ago........

We have a Third Order Franciscan or two in the congregation at Our Place (another urban backstreet parish), but, alas, owing to various reasons known only to the Holy Spirit (and I'm not even too sure about Her), the TSSF has almost a minus influence.......

......please God, send us some practical and pragmatic Benedictine nuns. I don't care about their churchmanship, as long as they wear sensible shoes..!!

Ian J.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
This is all very confusing, no? I once knew the Prior of the Anglican Cistercians as the curate of a (very) inner-city South London parish.....it seems half a century ago........

We have a Third Order Franciscan or two in the congregation at Our Place (another urban backstreet parish), but, alas, owing to various reasons known only to the Holy Spirit (and I'm not even too sure about Her), the TSSF has almost a minus influence.......

......please God, send us some practical and pragmatic Benedictine nuns. I don't care about their churchmanship, as long as they wear sensible shoes..!!

Ian J.

I am only really familiar with Canterbury and the surrounding villages as far as Kent goes, but the nuns at Malling Abbey are Anglican Benedictines.

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

Indeed they are, Jade, but AFAIK they are an enclosed/contemplative version of the Order......I was thinking more of those OSB nuns who play more of an active role (not sure if that's the right word, as prayer is hardly passive) in needy parishes. Hopefully YSWIM!

Ian J.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Jade -

the evangelical religious order you mention are probably The Sisters of Jesus. (I haven't googled them.)

The sisters at Walsingham are FiF and Society of St Margaret. The house of SSM at Haggerston/Hackney, as someone said, have women priest members.

The Benedictine sisters at Costock (formerly Rempstone) do not accept women priests as far as I know. Those are the only two communities that are FiF as far as I know.

I've just stayed at the Benedictine nuns at West Malling. None of them are ordained, but they have at least one woman priest on their rota of priests to preside at the daily eucharist.

On Saturday afternoon guests can join with some sisters in a study of the Sunday readings. When I was there one other guest (a frequent one too) was Methodist, one used The Message as her regular Bible and one the NIV. Which would imply the austere and simple life appeals to some evangelicals.

I've heard of cases of evangelical joining religious orders, I imagine because they represent serious commitment.

It is perfectly possible to be a woman priest and not be a theological liberal.

Posted by Carys (# 78) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:

We have a Third Order Franciscan or two in the congregation at Our Place (another urban backstreet parish), but, alas, owing to various reasons known only to the Holy Spirit (and I'm not even too sure about Her), the TSSF has almost a minus influence.......

Ian J.

A minus influence? What do you mean by that?

Carys TSSF

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Jade -

the evangelical religious order you mention are probably The Sisters of Jesus. (I haven't googled them.)

The sisters at Walsingham are FiF and Society of St Margaret. The house of SSM at Haggerston/Hackney, as someone said, have women priest members.

The Benedictine sisters at Costock (formerly Rempstone) do not accept women priests as far as I know. Those are the only two communities that are FiF as far as I know.

I've just stayed at the Benedictine nuns at West Malling. None of them are ordained, but they have at least one woman priest on their rota of priests to preside at the daily eucharist.

On Saturday afternoon guests can join with some sisters in a study of the Sunday readings. When I was there one other guest (a frequent one too) was Methodist, one used The Message as her regular Bible and one the NIV. Which would imply the austere and simple life appeals to some evangelicals.

I've heard of cases of evangelical joining religious orders, I imagine because they represent serious commitment.

It is perfectly possible to be a woman priest and not be a theological liberal.

I think you are right re the Sisters of Jesus - they wear blue habits and I think, Exclusive Brethren type headscarves.

I am well-aware that not all female priests are not theological liberals, and neither are all those in favour of female clergy! I wasn't actually trying to say that conservatism = FiF, but rather that FiF congregations/orders tend to be conservative. I'm aware that theological conservatism is broader than that. I wouldn't class myself as liberal as I am perfectly orthodox in upholding the historic creeds of the Church, although I don't identify as conservative either and am aware that I am seen as liberal by many conservatives (especially those outside of Anglicanism).

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Compulsory celibacy. . Catholics get it, the rest of us find it an alien and irrelevant imposition.

The members of religious communities are voluntarily celibate.

I find compulsory heterosexuality an alien and irrelevant imposition.

(PS Jade - I'm sorry if I seemed to criticise you. I was just adding a clarification.)

Posted by Carys (# 78) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Compulsory celibacy. . Catholics get it, the rest of us find it an alien and irrelevant imposition.
The members of religious communities are voluntarily celibate.

I find compulsory heterosexuality an alien and irrelevant imposition.

Indeed. Vowed celibacy in community or not is a way of life to which some are called as others are called to matrimony.

Carys

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

Venbede - not at all, I realised I should probably clarify!

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

I sensed some questionable issues behind Ken's post.

However, I am sure celibacy is probably the main issue why there are falling vocations and so many closing communities.

People just can't imagine that anyone can live without a sex life. And that is why they would probably regard ken's church as narrow minded if it only accepts sexual intimacy as permissible between heterosexual married couples. I imagine most evangelicals would officially expect all single people to remain chaste outside matrimony.

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
... People just can't imagine that anyone can live without a sex life. And that is why they would probably regard ken's church as narrow minded if it only accepts sexual intimacy as permissible between heterosexual married couples. I imagine most evangelicals would officially expect all single people to remain chaste outside matrimony.

It is the expectation that the whole of Christendom took for granted from the New Testament until the last 10/15 years or so ago, well within the lifetime of anyone now an adult.

For those that regard Tradition as having any degree of authority at all, it's quite hard to be persuaded of there being any legitimate way round that one, but I hear the sound of a spectral neighing.

What's possibly more of an issue, isn't the widespread demand that everyone is entitled to genital sex more or less whenever and with whoever they please. It's that celibacy is also a commitment to eschewing particularity, pairing off with one permanent, faithful, life companion.

Posted by Honest Ron Bacardi (# 38) on :

venbede wrote:

quote:
However, I am sure celibacy is probably the main issue why there are falling vocations and so many closing communities.

I'm sure it's a factor - for some people or maybe all people. Certainly all have to consider it so it's inevitable some will decide against the life of a religious on that basis.

But is it the main reason? I'm far less certain about that. The rise in vocations on Mt. Athos (Orthodoxy) and to the stricter Catholic orders in N. America rather argue against that. I think you would need to look at a raft of other reasons and work out where the balance lay. I have no idea what those reasons may be, but either together or individually, there seems to be evidence there is something more important there.

None of which should divert attention away from the fact that there are other orders.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

Its not so much that peope want to ahve sex - if they want that they won;t become celibates whatever denomination they are - as that compulsory prioestly (or monkish) celibacy seems culturally alien. A bit weird. Odd. People are suspicious of celibates.

Not so much an evangelical thing as a northern European thing. Though as evangelicalism (or indeed Protestantism in general) originated is pretty much an enculturation of orthodox Christianity into northern Europe, the two are hard to separate.

Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Its not so much that peope want to ahve sex - if they want that they won;t become celibates whatever denomination they are - as that compulsory prioestly (or monkish) celibacy seems culturally alien. A bit weird. Odd. People are suspicious of celibates.

Not so much an evangelical thing as a northern European thing. Though as evangelicalism (or indeed Protestantism in general) originated is pretty much an enculturation of orthodox Christianity into northern Europe, the two are hard to separate.

As sympathetic as I am to attempts at enculturation I don't buy the theory that that this is "a northern European thing". Among other things there was a rich monastic culture in the Celtic lands which helped evangelize Germany and other places on the Continent. They didn't seem to have a problem with celibacy or monasticism.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
People are suspicious of celibates.

And straight men are suspicious of women who want to live their own lives without other men.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Its not so much that peope want to ahve sex - if they want that they won;t become celibates whatever denomination they are - as that compulsory prioestly (or monkish) celibacy seems culturally alien. A bit weird. Odd. People are suspicious of celibates.

Not so much an evangelical thing as a northern European thing. Though as evangelicalism (or indeed Protestantism in general) originated is pretty much an enculturation of orthodox Christianity into northern Europe, the two are hard to separate.

I don't think it's true about suspicion of celibacy being a Northern European thing - celibate religious and priests weren't short of candidates before the Reformation. However, I think that the RCC's (pre-Reformation at least) over-endorsement of celibacy perhaps led to evangelicalism's over-endorsement of the nuclear family being for everyone. God calls some to celibacy, and some to marriage. Both are good vocations and both should be supported and encouraged by the Church. In my experience of evangelical churches at least (and I have spent more time in evangelical churches than other ones), celibacy is seen as either suspiciously Romish or suspiciously un-heterosexual. That does a huge disservice to those called to celibacy, as some evangelicals are - and it doesn't make them bad evangelicals.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

I am afraid I do not buy the celibacy idea. Firstly there were Protestant celibate groups. The Methodist Diaconal Order was and I suspect so was the URC one (closed) and the CofS. These however felt the pressure in the 1970s when the URC one closed, and the Methodist one accepts that Deacons could be married (Rita Savage was the first Deacon to be allowed to remain a Deacon and married). In other words, the CofE orders are thirty to forty years too late for that argument.

So I am going to suggest something else, the ordination of Women. The Diaconal orders grew up as an alternative to ordination for women. Yes Anglican Religious Orders are predominantly female. The timing of the creation of Anglican Religious orders is very similar, they both came around late nineteenth century. When you compare the Anglican Orders with the Continental Diaconals the differences you see here disappear.

The thirty years is simply explained by the difference in the timing of women's ordination. Methodists did it in 1960s as did CofS and Presbyterian Church of England. Congregationalists were of course earlier.

Jengie

Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :

Actually, in my diaconal ministry class, I wrote my paper on the link between the diaconal and monastic revivals in the Church of England, noting that the first pioneers of each went hand in hand (e.g. Elizabeth Ferrar and the Community of St Andrew, who continue to have a charism of "diakonia" though I don't believe the sisters today are required to be in deacon's orders per se). I also postulated that the focus on establishing "active" orders may have been necessary to ward off Protestant suspicions of the Maria Monk type. (The polemics of the day often bend over to clarify that they are not derogating the "good works" of these "ladies"). As it happens, the lecturer thought I leaned too hard on the connexion, but I still think JJ has it right.

[ 25. March 2014, 08:38: Message edited by: LQ ]

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
So I am going to suggest something else, the ordination of Women. The Diaconal orders grew up as an alternative to ordination for women. Yes Anglican Religious Orders are predominantly female. The timing of the creation of Anglican Religious orders is very similar, they both came around late nineteenth century. When you compare the Anglican Orders with the Continental Diaconals the differences you see here disappear.

Actually, that doesn't quite stack up with the Methodist experience. When we ordained women to the presbyterate they closed the Wesley Deaconess Order - as in, they stopped accepting new deaconesses. Some were ordained presbyter and some carried on, but it was accepted that it would eventually die out. However, our experience was that people were still being called to diaconal ministry and the Conference re-opened the order as the Methodist Diaconal Order, open to women and men, a religious order (with a rule of life) and an order of minstry, ordained to the diaconate of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by seasick:

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
So I am going to suggest something else, the ordination of Women. The Diaconal orders grew up as an alternative to ordination for women. Yes Anglican Religious Orders are predominantly female. The timing of the creation of Anglican Religious orders is very similar, they both came around late nineteenth century. When you compare the Anglican Orders with the Continental Diaconals the differences you see here disappear.
Actually, that doesn't quite stack up with the Methodist experience. When we ordained women to the presbyterate they closed the Wesley Deaconess Order - as in, they stopped accepting new deaconesses. Some were ordained presbyter and some carried on, but it was accepted that it would eventually die out. However, our experience was that people were still being called to diaconal ministry and the Conference re-opened the order as the Methodist Diaconal Order, open to women and men, a religious order (with a rule of life) and an order of minstry, ordained to the diaconate of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Out of interest, do you know if this was the case in Methodists outside the UK?

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

The short answer, is no, it wasn't. Methodist Churches are all autonomous and while bound by common ancestry and relationships fellowship are free to develop their polity as they see fit. So lots of national Methodist churches have deacons but their history will vary. The UMC for example, had a transitional diaconate like Anglicans until very recently and now has home missioners (male) and deaconesses (female) who do the religious order/mission kind of stuff and deacons (ordained; male or female) who tend to have particular jobs in local parishes.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

Just to be clear, a UMC deaconess is distinct from a female decon, correct?

Posted by seasick (# 48) on :

Correct.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Just to be clear, a UMC deaconess is distinct from a female decon, correct?

And in the Anglican church as well.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Just to be clear, a UMC deaconess is distinct from a female decon, correct?
And in the Anglican church as well.

Deaconesses as a distinct group of their own (and not female deacons) no longer exist in the Anglican church, I thought? Certainly not in the CoE.

Posted by Gee D (# 13815) on :

They exist in the Anglican Church of Australia.

Posted by The Man with a Stick (# 12664) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:

quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Just to be clear, a UMC deaconess is distinct from a female decon, correct?
And in the Anglican church as well.
Deaconesses as a distinct group of their own (and not female deacons) no longer exist in the Anglican church, I thought? Certainly not in the CoE.

They *do* still exist in the CofE. There hasn't been any provision for admitting new ones for 25 years or so, but they didn't all become Deacons/Priests. Most of them are getting on a bit now.

Presumably, when the last Deaconess has died, we might repeal the entire section of the Canons relating to Deaconesses (Section D)!

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

We had a Deaconess or two in the (con-evo) Church Of My Yoof - they wore a sort of dark red dressing-gown as their distinctive liturgical vesture...

/tangent alert/

We also had a lady known as The Parish Worker (as though no-one else did any work......). I think she/they became Pastoral Assistants eventually.

Ian J.

Posted by ken (# 2460) on :

There was a deaconess in our church. I think she was ordained Deacon about ten seconds after it became legal.

Posted by Corvo (# 15220) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
We had a Deaconess or two in the (con-evo) Church Of My Yoof - they wore a sort of dark red dressing-gown as their distinctive liturgical vesture...

Ian J.

Didn't deaconesses wear blue cassocks? I think they wore these during services and without a surplice or cotta.

I seem to remember they wore some kind of pectoral cross as well or when they were in civies.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

If you want to characterise liturgically Anglican orders then I suspect there are really three varieties.

Those that use a form of the monastic/Benedictine office.
Those who use an office based around Book of Common Prayer. Often extended but I would say Morning Prayer, Eucharist, (Mid-day prayer) Evening Prayer and Compline.
Those who use a form of prayer created by their founder, quite possibly drawing on a wide variety of sources. I forget where I came across this third variety, but I can remember conversations about at least one of these. Several different convents seemed to use it.

Jengie

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
If you want to characterise liturgically Anglican orders then I suspect there are really three varieties.

Those that use a form of the monastic/Benedictine office.
Those who use an office based around Book of Common Prayer. Often extended but I would say Morning Prayer, Eucharist, (Mid-day prayer) Evening Prayer and Compline.
Those who use a form of prayer created by their founder, quite possibly drawing on a wide variety of sources. I forget where I came across this third variety, but I can remember conversations about at least one of these. Several different convents seemed to use it.

Jengie

I would agree. It seems that the second group is the most common amongst female orders in England.

Posted by Carys (# 78) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
So I am going to suggest something else, the ordination of Women. The Diaconal orders grew up as an alternative to ordination for women. Yes Anglican Religious Orders are predominantly female. The timing of the creation of Anglican Religious orders is very similar, they both came around late nineteenth century. When you compare the Orders with the Continental Diaconals the differences you see here disappear.

Jengie

Are the Anglican Religious Orders predominantly female? SSF is much larger than CSF and has novices which CSF does not at the moment. I suspect that SSF is bigger than CSF and OSC combined (which arguably it is with Glasshampton playing the Freeland rôle).

Similarly Mucknall which is a mixed house has 5 professed brothers, 3 professed sisters, and 3 male and 1 female novice. I've a feeling, but can't find this on their website, that they began as a female house and were shrinking before becoming mixed.

I'm now trying to remember where Isaw figures on the number of religious in the Church of England and whether there were more men than women. I think there were. I'll try and find those figures.

Carys

Posted by Carys (# 78) on :

This article from 2009 [url=http://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/jan/11/religion-monks-nuns] gives figures of 470 nuns and 135 monks then down from 710 and 230 in 2000. So yes, historically nuns have been more common than monks in the CofE. Both are declining sharply though, so it can't all be because there are other opportunities for women now which is a big change from the 19th and early 20th centuries and probably contributed to the greater number of nuns.

Carys

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Carys:

Similarly Mucknall which is a mixed house has 5 professed brothers, 3 professed sisters, and 3 male and 1 female novice. I've a feeling, but can't find this on their website, that they began as a female house and were shrinking before becoming mixed.

Carys

They were founded at Burford as a women's Benedictine community.

The ordination of women certainly means that women who couldn't be priests were likely to consider a vocation as a religious. The Deaconess Community of St Andrew certainly lost their raison d'etre.

But the priestly and religious vocations are different and men's vocations are falling as well. I rather believe women's vocations are falling drastically in the Roman Catholic Church in the West as well.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

What is the function of a monastic life ?

Posted by Pancho (# 13533) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I rather believe women's vocations are falling drastically in the Roman Catholic Church in the West as well.

Not so much among some of the traditional and orthodox orders. The following article is worth reading: The CARA Study and Vocations.

quote:

The study, “Recent Vocations to Religious Life: A Report for the National Religious Vocation Conference,” was conducted by the well-respected Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate (CARA) at Georgetown University and published in August 2009. The study concluded:

The most successful institutes in terms of attracting and retaining new members at this time are those that follow a more traditional style of religious life in which members live together in community and participate in daily Eucharist, pray the Divine Office, and engage in devotional practices together. They also wear a religious habit, work together in common apostolates, and are explicit about their fidelity to the Church and the teachings of the Magisterium. All of these characteristics are especially attractive to the young people who are entering religious life today.

The article goes on to describe a number of these successful orders: The Dominican Sisters of St. Cecilia (aka the Nashville Dominicans), Carmelite Sisters of the Sacred Heart of Los Angeles , Sisters of St. Francis of Perpetual Adoration , The Dominican Sisters of Mary, Mother of the Eucharist , Religious Sisters of Mercy of Alma , and a few orders for men. I know that Mother Angelica's Poor Clares of Perpetual Adoration and Fr. Benedict Groeschel's Franciscan Friars of Renewal have also experienced tremendous growth.

Some of these orders are now serving in the U.k. The Sisters of St. Cecilia are serving Scotland (American Dominican Sisters move to Scotland) and the Franciscan Sisters of the Renewal have a convent in Leeds.

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

Carys

What you are forgetting is the multitude of small women's orders.

The old RC joke goes that there are three things the Almighty does not know:

What a Jesuit will do next
What a Dominican will say next
how many women's religious orders there are in France

Jengie

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

Just to say something more has come back to me about the third type. The order was in Ilkley. I noted it because there was also a Methodist Deaconess College in Ilkley.

Jengie

Posted by Carys (# 78) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
What is the function of a monastic life ?

Monastic -- prayer.

Religious -- prayer and work in community.

They are a part of the overall Christian community with its multiple vocations. An internal organ of some sort I supposed.

Carys

Posted by Forthview (# 12376) on :

I'm glad the American sisters are moving to the Greyfriars convent in Elgin - a pre-Reformation foundation given new life in the 19th century by a great benefactor of the Catholic Church in Scotland, the 3rd Marquis of Bute - the chapel is, or certainly was, a marvellous example of a medieval one.

Posted by Panda (# 2951) on :

The community of nuns at Ty Mawr, near Monmouth in Wales is SSC, and describe themselves as living under a modern rule influenced by the Cistercian tradition. One of the nuns is a priest, but I understand she doesn't usually celebrate unless the visiting priest, who might be male or female, can't make it. I would say they are fairly catholic in their churchmanship.

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Carys:

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
What is the function of a monastic life ?
Monastic -- prayer.

Religious -- prayer and work in community.

They are a part of the overall Christian community with its multiple vocations. An internal organ of some sort I supposed.

Carys

So I guess a closed order would best fit the prayer function, less distractions. Would you need to take a position on churchmanship to make that work ?

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:

quote:
Originally posted by Carys:

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
What is the function of a monastic life ?
Monastic -- prayer.

Religious -- prayer and work in community.

They are a part of the overall Christian community with its multiple vocations. An internal organ of some sort I supposed.

Carys
So I guess a closed order would best fit the prayer function, less distractions. Would you need to take a position on churchmanship to make that work ?

It would matter as to whether the order accepted female clergy to celebrate the Eucharist, or whether female members of the order could themselves be ordained.

Posted by Carys (# 78) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:

quote:
Originally posted by Carys:

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
What is the function of a monastic life ?
Monastic -- prayer.

Religious -- prayer and work in community.

They are a part of the overall Christian community with its multiple vocations. An internal organ of some sort I supposed.

Carys
So I guess a closed order would best fit the prayer function, less distractions. Would you need to take a position on churchmanship to make that work ?

Enclosure is the difference between monastic and religious yes. If you mean churchmanship in broadest sense (rather than with reference to a certain dead horse), then it is possible to have religious communities from the evangelical tradition and examples of such communities have been cited on this thread, but much of the evangelical tradition has been wary of the idea of enclosed orders and indeed the contemplative tradition in general. I suppose that there are no examples of a monastic community in the Bible, although the disciples holding everything in common in Acts could be seen as headed in that area, but that was for all not just a subset. I think may be that is why the more evangelical end of the spectrum shy away from religious communities because it is a specific vocation which can be seen as 'better', 'more holy' 'elite' and so falls under a similar suspician as clericalism.

Personally, l would see life in community as one of many vocations and maybe we need to think about vocations more, so so are called to marriage, some are called to celibacy in community, others to celibacy in the world or as hermits. Currently marriage is just the default and maybe not valued as a vocation in which people grow in Christlikeness...

Carys

Posted by Carys (# 78) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:

quote:
Originally posted by Carys:

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
What is the function of a monastic life ?
Monastic -- prayer.

Religious -- prayer and work in community.

They are a part of the overall Christian community with its multiple vocations. An internal organ of some sort I supposed.

Carys
So I guess a closed order would best fit the prayer function, less distractions. Would you need to take a position on churchmanship to make that work ?

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:

quote:
Originally posted by Carys:

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
What is the function of a monastic life ?
Monastic -- prayer.

Religious -- prayer and work in community.

They are a part of the overall Christian community with its multiple vocations. An internal organ of some sort I supposed.

Carys
So I guess a closed order would best fit the prayer function, less distractions. Would you need to take a position on churchmanship to make that work ?
It would matter as to whether the order accepted female clergy to celebrate the Eucharist, or whether female members of the order could themselves be ordained.

I suppose I was assuming a) priesthood as a different vocation and b) that a life of contemplative prayer would in some sense be a vocation removed from those battles.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

All monastics are religious. Not all religious live in monasteries. (I mean religious in the specific sense of the OP. It's an unfortunate word, but there isn't another.)

Marriage is certainly not the default setting according to the gospels.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

The answers to most of Jade's questions can be found in Anglican Religious Life 2014 - 2015 A yearbook of religious order and communities in the Anglican Communion and tertiaries, oblates, associates and companions..

As well as Anglican communities it includes Lutheran and Mar Thoma ones as well as the Church Army and Indian ashrams.

Note the word "religious" in the title covers them all, not solely active communities.

Posted by Jade Constable (# 17175) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
The answers to most of Jade's questions can be found in Anglican Religious Life 2014 - 2015 A yearbook of religious order and communities in the Anglican Communion and tertiaries, oblates, associates and companions..

As well as Anglican communities it includes Lutheran and Mar Thoma ones as well as the Church Army and Indian ashrams.

Note the word "religious" in the title covers them all, not solely active communities.

Thank you - the price is not as prohibitive as I imagined it would be!

Posted by Bishops Finger (# 5430) on :

....and, for those of you not comfortable with using Amazon, try eBay (though it might cost a quid or two more).

Ian J.

Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :

Or try Canterbury Press or Church House bookshop.

I was at Church House bookshop yesterday and passed St Edward's House, the last house in England of the Cowley Fathers, SSJE. All locked up and no sign of use. Together with the former Nashdom Benedictines, now at Salisbury, a former great community now about to disappear.

Very, very sad.

[ 28. March 2014, 17:47: Message edited by: venbede ]

Posted by Carys (# 78) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:

quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
It would matter as to whether the order accepted female clergy to celebrate the Eucharist, or whether female members of the order could themselves be ordained.
I suppose I was assuming a) priesthood as a different vocation and b) that a life of contemplative prayer would in some sense be a vocation removed from those battles.

Although a different vocation to priesthood it is possible to be called to both and as religious communities tend to be places which celebrate a daily Eucharist, they need either priests in community or who will come in to celebrate.

Carys

Posted by Enoch (# 14322) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
... I was at Church House bookshop yesterday and passed St Edward's House, the last house in England of the Cowley Fathers, SSJE. All locked up and no sign of use. Together with the former Nashdom Benedictines, now at Salisbury, a former great community now about to disappear.

Very, very sad.

I agree with you, but isn't this in danger of being a bit like the ecclesiastical equivalent of the limousine liberal. The accusation was that they were always expecting other people to make sacrifices. Here, are we expecting other people to have vocations or bemoaning that they haven't done?

Posted by leo (# 1458) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Or try Canterbury Press or Church House bookshop.

I was at Church House bookshop yesterday and passed St Edward's House, the last house in England of the Cowley Fathers, SSJE. All locked up and no sign of use. Together with the former Nashdom Benedictines, now at Salisbury, a former great community now about to disappear.

Very, very sad.

The Cowley dads are very active and strong in the USA.

Posted by Qoheleth. (# 9265) on :

quote:
Originally posted by venbede:

I was at Church House bookshop yesterday and passed St Edward's House, the last house in England of the Cowley Fathers, SSJE. All locked up and no sign of use.

Sold, I believe, to Westminster School.
See here

Posted by Gottschalk (# 13175) on :

How about the Oratorians of the Good Shepherd? E.L. Mascall was a member, methinks. Would they receive ministrations from lady vicars?

Posted by Jengie Jon (# 273) on :

Firstly it is a dispersed community. Secondly the answer would appear to be yes although not admitting women, there are ordained women among the companions. However I suspect they use the note of "Liberty" and some do and some don't. I am aware that at least at one stage SSF also took this stance so I would semi-expect that from a dispersed community.

Jengie

Posted by Thurible (# 3206) on :

My college chaplain was OGS and "pro". Bishop Lindsay Urwin is OGS and "anti". So, yes, mixed.

Thurible

Posted by LQ (# 11596) on :

The Sisters of the Good Shepherd do include both lay and ordained members.

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