quote:

---

Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
No, you apparently believe that war is something to be celebrated. And another American war, to boot. Team America, here to save the day. Fuck yeah.

You've posted this right where you belong.

---

Is it your custom to make up lies about people? I have never done or said any of these things!
 

---

Posted by Zappa (# 8433) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
No, you apparently believe that war is something to be celebrated. And another American war, to boot. Team America, here to save the day. Fuck yeah.

You've posted this right where you belong.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Zappa:
I thought the OP had an eschatological tone rather than a celebration of US intervention.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Demas:
Yes! And yes, the little Yazidi children dying on the mountain and the little Shi'ite children, they too have a loving Father, who will see justice roll down like waters.

---

quote:

---

I'm not sure where that came from. I thought the OP had an eschatological tone rather than a celebration of US intervention.

---

quote:

---

Why not provide them with backup and let people who are familiar with the territory, speak the language and understand the people do any fighting that needs to be done?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:

quote:

---

I'm not sure where that came from. I thought the OP had an eschatological tone rather than a celebration of US intervention.

---

Funny, I didn't read it that way at all.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jon in the Nati:
Given how hostile Demas has been to Islam in general on this thread, I don't think my interpretation is far off.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Demas:
Do you think you can behead God's children and rape their mothers and then hide from from their Father?

---

ISIS' father is the devil, who chuckles with glee over what they are doing.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I've seen some of the graphic images online too. If they are for real then ...

(speechless)

Seriously, Sioni and others, I'd generally be the first to jump up and down about US airstrikes anywhere but this time it's different.

Even the most conservative accounts accept that there is potential genocide going on here.

It has got to be stopped.
 

---

Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on :
 
Another in the something needs to be done quickly and right and I'd hate to be in Obama/Cameroons/etc shoes. Quick might be possible, Right I really don't know.

Appeasement/Danegeld blatantly won't work.

Massed intervention might have an effect like that on the new French/Russian/Iranian of 'proving' that they've been too nice (though it's hard to see how Is can get any worse or see themselves as the reacting party) or that they can only escalate (though again how?). But if there's any misfires then even more so.
And on top of that you've always got the worry you're being played for a sucker.

Limited intervention has it's own problems.

[ 09. August 2014, 18:41: Message edited by: Jay-Emm ]
 

---

Posted by Arminian (# 16607) on :
 
When I saw ISIS were putting 'N' on peoples houses and demanding they leave or die it reminded me of Hitler's tactics with the Jews. The ideology behind ISIS is similar to fascism. Instead of the Aryan super race, its the ISIS caliphate. Brutal towards dissent, and keeps discipline through fear.

Lets hope the world doesn't make the mistake of thinking this problem will go away on its own. I hated the war in Iraq, but I don't see any other way of stopping this evil ideology other than by armed conflict. What they are doing is genocide by forcing hundreds of thousands into the wilderness where they will die.
 

---

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I must admit I have suddenly found that I am not as pacifist as I thought I was.

I would like to arm women in the areas affected by ISIS and Boko Haram.

There is something odd about the tactic of kidnapping women (which I found, to my surprise in a Sherlock Holmes story, to have been an accusation made against the very early, Brigham Young period, Mormons). And about the emphasis on the 72 virgins (or, in the Syriac, raisins). Why are these men unable to find partners normally? (Even normally for their culture?)

I feel that the histories of Jael, Judith and even Delilah (not her fault she was born on the wrong side), should be taught to women in the area.
 

---

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :
 
Traditionally fighters displaced from their home communities by military campaigns have solved the problem of sex with prostitutes and rape. This becomes an issue if you are claiming religious purity.

So your fighters can't have sex unless their married, in the middle of a war zone they can't date - but provided with a wife they can claim a bonus "successful" conversion.

But the process itself is not really different to the "comfort women" or mass rapes of other conflicts.
 

---

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
Poor little diddums can't manage without sex. It's not necessary in the same way as food, water, or somewhere to deposit effluent.

The Janissaries did, having been castrated, and they were pretty fearsome in battle.

I seem to recall that captives in some societies not a long way in geography or belief from the multinamed bunch of subhuman "warriors" who only take on those weaker than themselves* expected the same thing done to them, and by the women.

*Seen an analysis - they turn aside when they see serious opposition.

[ 10. August 2014, 16:03: Message edited by: Penny S ]
 

---

Posted by no prophet (# 15560) on :
 
Hey, let's invade Iraq again. Are there weapons of mass destruction in view?
 

---

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
Poor little diddums can't manage without sex.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet:
Hey, let's invade Iraq again. Are there weapons of mass destruction in view?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
Poor little diddums can't manage without sex.

---

It's not about the home comforts. Sex and aggression are closely linked. Rape is an act of war, and has been systematically deployed as such, for example in Bosnia and Bangladesh.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stetson:

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet:
Hey, let's invade Iraq again. Are there weapons of mass destruction in view?

---

I concur with the argument being made sarcastically here.

We seem to have fallen into a pattern in which an intervention is staged on the grounds that things in an area are fucked up. Then, when the intervention leads things to being even more fucked up, we use the new state of chaos to justify another interventuion.

The humanitarian argument for an unprovoked war against Iraq relied heavily on the idea that Saddam was a special case, a brand of evil unsurpassed anywhere else in the world. So, no, we're not obligated to attack every dictator(so the argument went), just Saddam, because an evil beyond his is incomprehensible.

Well, apparently, with Saddam gone, we are IN FACT able to comprehend an evil beyond his, ISIS. And these Islamic nutbars warrant another intervention, because, well, you know, they are the REALLY bad guys. We couldn't possibly have foreseen them when we ousted Saddam, but here they are.

At some point, you simply have to break the cycle by deciding that there will be no more interventions, no matter how bad the atrocities are. Because if recent history has shown us anything, it is that these interventions don't do anything to stop further atrocities from occuring.

---

quote:

---

Even the most conservative accounts suggest that there are dreadful, dreadful atrocities taking place - beheadings, shootings, rapes, forced marriages, forced FGM even ...

---

quote:

---

Cross-posted ... yes, Obama was advocating the bombing of Syria and to my mind that would have been things even worse.

Assad is a monster but some of these rebels are even worse.

---

quote:

---

The UN peacekeeping missions used to work, before the unilateralists and economic developmentalists had their way. [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by no prophet:
Hey, let's invade Iraq again. Are there weapons of mass destruction in view?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Arminian:
When I saw ISIS were putting 'N' on peoples houses and demanding they leave or die it reminded me of Hitler's tactics with the Jews.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Arminian:
When I saw ISIS were putting 'N' on peoples houses and demanding they leave or die it reminded me of Hitler's tactics with the Jews.

---

Rather a banal question, all things considered, but what does the 'N' stand for?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stetson:
Doing some research here, I'm a little skeptical about the source of this "N" story.

---

quote:

---

Wikipedia
In Arabic-speaking cultures, two words are commonly used for Christians: Nasrani (نصراني), plural Nasara (نصارى) is generally understood to be derived from Nazareth through the Syriac (Aramaic); Masihi (مسيحي) means followers of the Messiah.

Where there is a distinction, Nasrani refers to people from a Christian culture and Masihi means those with a religious faith in Jesus. In some countries Nasrani tends to be used generically for non-Muslim white people. Another Arabic word sometimes used for Christians, particularly in a political context, is Salibi (صليبي "Crusader") from salib (صليب "crucifix") which refers to Crusaders and has negative connotations.

WordReference.com
Nasraani (which is after Nazareth and a name of a heretic sect of the 7th century which Muhammad may have known) was used solely by Muslims before the 20th century and was deeply hated by Christians because it was associated with the Ottoman millet system.

As soon as the Ottomans left in 1918, this word became obsolete in the Levant (and similar was the word Nusayri نصيري , the name of the Allawites under the millet system). The words نصراني and ثصيري (Christians and Allawites) were removed even from place names and to use them in Levant today is offensive and like calling an African person a nigger.

---

quote:

---

We are Nazarene. Please share your thoughts and prayers on Twitter using #WeAreN, and consider changing your avatar on social media in solidarity with our Christian brothers and sisters in Iraq.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stetson:
Professor Gorka comes off sounding like one of those "white Chriatian males are the most oppressed group on the planet" types. Not always the most reputable sources.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stetson:
Doing some research here, I'm a little skeptical about the source of this "N" story.

---

It seems legitimate.

quote:

---

Wikipedia
In Arabic-speaking cultures, two words are commonly used for Christians: Nasrani (نصراني), plural Nasara (نصارى) is generally understood to be derived from Nazareth through the Syriac (Aramaic); Masihi (مسيحي) means followers of the Messiah.

Where there is a distinction, Nasrani refers to people from a Christian culture and Masihi means those with a religious faith in Jesus. In some countries Nasrani tends to be used generically for non-Muslim white people. Another Arabic word sometimes used for Christians, particularly in a political context, is Salibi (صليبي "Crusader") from salib (صليب "crucifix") which refers to Crusaders and has negative connotations.

WordReference.com
Nasraani (which is after Nazareth and a name of a heretic sect of the 7th century which Muhammad may have known) was used solely by Muslims before the 20th century and was deeply hated by Christians because it was associated with the Ottoman millet system.

As soon as the Ottomans left in 1918, this word became obsolete in the Levant (and similar was the word Nusayri نصيري , the name of the Allawites under the millet system). The words نصراني and ثصيري (Christians and Allawites) were removed even from place names and to use them in Levant today is offensive and like calling an African person a nigger.

---

The latter comment makes a lot of sense in context.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
All of that speaks to the legitimacy of the meaning of 'N'. None of it speaks to the question of whether the current story, about 'N' being marked, is true. It may well be. I'm just pointing out that those links verify the concept, not the event.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by seekingsister:
Will it be possible to be a moderate Muslim in Britain anymore?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by seekingsister:
Will it be possible to be a moderate Muslim in Britain anymore?

---

If all the extremists pissed off to Iraq then it would be considerably easier to be a moderate in the UK.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
I wonder why the Standard chose to put a "News picture of the day" of a litter of spotted piglets under the story.

---

quote:

---

Another angle to these ISIS nutters, which is in keeping with Taliban behaviour as well, is their enthusiasm for blowing up thousands of years of cultural heritage.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Demas:
Press releases by religious bureaucrats are all well and good but I really wish, for everyone's sake, that there were anti-ISIS demonstrations happening everywhere that were at least equal in size and intensity to the recent anti-Israel demonstrations.

The radicals are trying to use these atrocities to drive a wedge between moderate Muslims and non-Muslim westeners and force the moderates into the arms of the radicals. A few large angry mobs of Muslims shouting anti-ISIS slogans and protesting Christian and Yazidi persecution would help Muslim/non-Muslim integration in the West immeasurably.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I've seen some of the graphic images online too. If they are for real then ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Demas:
Press releases by religious bureaucrats are all well and good but I really wish, for everyone's sake, that there were anti-ISIS demonstrations happening everywhere that were at least equal in size and intensity to the recent anti-Israel demonstrations.

The radicals are trying to use these atrocities to drive a wedge between moderate Muslims and non-Muslim westeners and force the moderates into the arms of the radicals. A few large angry mobs of Muslims shouting anti-ISIS slogans and protesting Christian and Yazidi persecution would help Muslim/non-Muslim integration in the West immeasurably.

---

Get out there and protest then. There are some, but only a few, Israelis in the demonstrations opposing the military actions against Gaza and the West Bank.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
Bit difficult if Demas isn't a Muslim, isn't it?

---

Well, that's easy, just convert, then protest. Problem solved!
 

---

Posted by Demas (# 24) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:
Could someone please point to this rule that the size of demonstrations should always be proportional to the atrocities committed? I must have missed it when I joined Humanity Inc™.

---

quote:

---

Demas: A huge Muslim anti-ISIS demonstration (led ideally by Sunnis not Ahmadis) would be the best thing possible for future Muslim community relationships,

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:
Their leaders publicly condemn extremism every time it happens. It's not enough.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:
Who the fuck are we to set ever-moving standards of when Muslims have condemned extremism enough?

---

quote:

---

IngoB: Really?! Define "leaders", define "extremism" and define "every time". Maybe I am suffering from selective media reporting here, but my ears are not exactly worn out by Muslim leaders apologising over Muslim extremism.

---

quote:

---

IngoB: And by the way, I'm pretty sure that you are well-informed about the troubles in Northern Ireland, and you know about the Basque ETA, too.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Demas:
The size of a demonstration tends to be proportional to how much people care about an issue.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:
Their leaders publicly condemn extremism every time it happens. It's not enough.

---

Really?! Define "leaders", define "extremism" and define "every time". Maybe I am suffering from selective media reporting here, but my ears are not exactly worn out by Muslim leaders apologising over Muslim extremism.

---

quote:

---

Sioni Sais: I've not heard any Jewish leaders condemn the excesses of Israel's actions in Gaza.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

---

Sioni Sais: I've not heard any Jewish leaders condemn the excesses of Israel's actions in Gaza.

---

I have.

---

quote:

---

Sioni Sais: Jews yes, but I've not heard leaders. Can you post a link or two?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:
Muslim leaders in the Netherlands have condemned 9/11, the reactions of Muslims to 9/11, the death of Theo van Gogh (and just to be sure also of Pim Fortuyn even if it wasn't a Muslim who killed him), ISIS ... They do it every single time. And it is never enough.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:
Oh, this is is embarrassing. For a moment, I forgot that I'm white. I don't have to distance condemn these things every day. You only have to do these things if you're Muslim.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
a London protest against the actions of a terrorist group in Iraq who won't pay the blindest bit of notice to it seems somewhat pointless to me.

---

quote:

---

IngoB: But anyway, you seem to have the opinion that somehow there must be an end to all this condemning.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Demas:
Press releases by religious bureaucrats are all well and good but I really wish, for everyone's sake, that there were anti-ISIS demonstrations happening everywhere that were at least equal in size and intensity to the recent anti-Israel demonstrations.

The radicals are trying to use these atrocities to drive a wedge between moderate Muslims and non-Muslim westeners and force the moderates into the arms of the radicals. A few large angry mobs of Muslims shouting anti-ISIS slogans and protesting Christian and Yazidi persecution would help Muslim/non-Muslim integration in the West immeasurably.

---

Get out there and protest then. There are some, but only a few, Israelis in the demonstrations opposing the military actions against Gaza and the West Bank.

---

Bit difficult if Demas isn't a Muslim, isn't it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
As far as I'm aware, there's nothing happening here organised by Muslims; I shall be delighted to be disabused of my ignorance if incorrect.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
But fair enough, I have heard apologies, and from some apparently important Muslim leaders. That's one of the problems by the way: I simply do not know who has relevant status in the Muslim word, so that their condemnation actually will mean something. 100 Muslim scholars signed this or that declaration. What does that mean? Maybe it will through the education system eventually change the opinion of millions of people. Maybe it will be totally ignored on Muslim streets. I have no idea.

---

quote:

---

100 London Imams speaking out against ISIS

Oh and these photos too

It's not necessarily that things aren't happening, they often aren't reported.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:

But fair enough, I have heard apologies, and from some apparently important Muslim leaders. That's one of the problems by the way: I simply do not know who has relevant status in the Muslim word, so that their condemnation actually will mean something. 100 Muslim scholars signed this or that declaration. What does that mean?

---

quote:

---

The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) (formerly Organization of the Islamic Conference) is the second largest inter-governmental organization after the United Nations which has membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The Organization is the collective voice of the Muslim world and ensuring to safeguard and protect the interests of the Muslim world in the spirit of promoting international peace and harmony among various people of the world.

Over the last 40 years, the membership has grown from its founding members of 25 to 57 states. The Organization has the singular honor to galvanize the Ummah into a unified body and have actively represented the Muslims by espousing all causes close to the hearts of over 1.5 billion Muslims of the world.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

---

IngoB: But anyway, you seem to have the opinion that somehow there must be an end to all this condemning.

---

No, I applaud it every time when Muslims condemn extremism. I'm happy about that.

What I don't think that we have the right to demand this from ordinary Muslims who have nothing to do with extremism. When they do condemn it, excellent, but I have no right to demand this from them. I have no right to condition communities of ordinary Muslims having a place in society upon them making these condemnations. And I have no right to set the standards of when these condemnations will be enough.

A few days ago, a white police officer shot innocent Michael Brown. I condemn that. But no-one demands of me that I condemn that, just because I'm white. No-one will exclude my community if I don't condemn this. No-one sets standards on whether I have condemned this enough. There's a word for that. It's called privilege.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

---

IngoB: But anyway, you seem to have the opinion that somehow there must be an end to all this condemning.

---

No, I applaud it every time when Muslims condemn extremism. I'm happy about that.

What I don't think that we have the right to demand this from ordinary Muslims who have nothing to do with extremism. When they do condemn it, excellent, but I have no right to demand this from them. I have no right to condition communities of ordinary Muslims having a place in society upon them making these condemnations. And I have no right to set the standards of when these condemnations will be enough.

A few days ago, a white police officer shot innocent Michael Brown. I condemn that. But no-one demands of me that I condemn that, just because I'm white. No-one will exclude my community if I don't condemn this. No-one sets standards on whether I have condemned this enough. There's a word for that. It's called privilege.

---

It's a veiled and creepy form of anti-Islam, isn't it? I mean, to keep asking Muslims to condemn terrorism, suggests that Islam = terrorism, so Muslims have to keep showing their Persil credentials.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
I think people need to know where Muslims stand.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
ISIS have declared war on all other Muslim factions, AND against everyone else.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I've got a better idea - the Western allies should invade another Arab or Muslim country! What could possibly go wrong?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Helen-Eva:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
ISIS have declared war on all other Muslim factions, AND against everyone else.

---

Where have these ISIS guys come from out of nowhere? I'd never heard of them before last month and now they've got half a country.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoannaP:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Helen-Eva:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
ISIS have declared war on all other Muslim factions, AND against everyone else.

---

Where have these ISIS guys come from out of nowhere? I'd never heard of them before last month and now they've got half a country.

---

They have been around for a few years - they used to be called Al Qaida in Iraq.


How often did the Pope condemn IRA attacks? I certainly don't recall it happening every time...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Demas:
Press releases by religious bureaucrats are all well and good but I really wish, for everyone's sake, that there were anti-ISIS demonstrations happening everywhere that were at least equal in size and intensity to the recent anti-Israel demonstrations.

The radicals are trying to use these atrocities to drive a wedge between moderate Muslims and non-Muslim westeners and force the moderates into the arms of the radicals. A few large angry mobs of Muslims shouting anti-ISIS slogans and protesting Christian and Yazidi persecution would help Muslim/non-Muslim integration in the West immeasurably.

---

Get out there and protest then. There are some, but only a few, Israelis in the demonstrations opposing the military actions against Gaza and the West Bank.

---

Bit difficult if Demas isn't a Muslim, isn't it?

---

You rather missed the logical corollary. Demas demands that the anti-Muslim protests have Muslims in them. But when talking about anti-Israel protests, doesn't seem to consider whether they have Israelis in them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
As far as I'm aware, there's nothing happening here organised by Muslims; I shall be delighted to be disabused of my ignorance if incorrect.

---

Why would you be made aware? If you're not a Muslim, why would any Muslims notify you about the fact that they're organising a Muslim protest to satisfy the apparent need to have Muslim protesters?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
Er...no I didn't miss anything: Demas was encouraged to get out and protest as if in some way that would mean that there would consequently be Muslims protesting against IS.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
I think people need to know where Muslims stand.

---

WHICH ONES?

Honestly, the idea that a billion Muslims all 'stand' in the same place makes as much sense as thinking that a billion Christians all think the same thing, or a billion Chinese, or a billion anybody.

There is no central authority. And even if there WAS a central authority, the views of the central authority are not equal to the views of every single individual over which they have authority. The views of the American Government are not the views of every American (which should be damned obvious given the enormous political heat the American Government receives from a bunch of people in the Capitol, never mind the rest of the country). The views of the Pope are not, however much some would like this, the views of every Catholic.

There is no single Muslim view, just as there is no single Christian view. The very existence of the Ship is a demonstration of the latter.

And really, why the blazes should an invididual Muslim in the United Kingdom, Morocco or Indonesia be required to express an opinion on events in Syria and Iraq? Why does their opinion have any more relevance? Why make them answerable in any way for the actions of someone else that they have one thing in common with?

Plus there's the minor detail that a significant proportion of the people directly suffering at the hands of ISIS are Muslims.

I mean, when Ku Klux Klan members were killing folk, did anyone say "where do Christians stand?". Because some of them stood with their neck in the noose.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
Oh- and re Hamas/Israel, I believe HAMAS declared war - therefore they're committing war crimes against the Gazans by hiting their materiel in civi areas. HAMAS are SOLELY responsible.

Israel has had enough. Hamas want to destroy them completely - if they have to be flattened - tough.

Israel is sending aid in for Palestinian civis...

Hamas is provoking someone, then crying "he hit me!"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Get out there and protest then.

---

I'm not sure I am 'wilfully misunderstanding' what you said: you said what you said. I am (not wilfully) however misunderstanding what you are trying to now say about it. Please clarify what you meant by your original statement.
 

---

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
Or maybe I'm just having a particularly thick couple of days but I am genuinely confused now.
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
Sioni, this is where you said it:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Get out there and protest then.

---

I'm not sure I am 'wilfully misunderstanding' what you said: you said what you said. I am (not wilfully) however misunderstanding what you are trying to now say about it. Please clarify what you meant by your original statement.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alex Cockell:

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I've got a better idea - the Western allies should invade another Arab or Muslim country! What could possibly go wrong?

---

Probably not. But the "let them convene then bomb the bastards" thought re ISIS did seem logical - as they were all convening in a small patch of desert...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
Sioni, this is where you said it:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Get out there and protest then.

---

I'm not sure I am 'wilfully misunderstanding' what you said: you said what you said. I am (not wilfully) however misunderstanding what you are trying to now say about it. Please clarify what you meant by your original statement.

---

Yeah, because "get out there and protest then" really equates with "get out there and protest because [insert spurious reasoning by Matt Black here]".

I explained it to you, and you just went ahead and ignored my explanation. So now you want another explanation?

---

quote:

---

A few large angry mobs of Muslims shouting anti-ISIS slogans and protesting Christian and Yazidi persecution would help Muslim/non-Muslim integration in the West immeasurably.

---

quote:

---

Get out there and protest then.

---

quote:

---

Bit difficult if Demas isn't a Muslim, isn't it?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
Or maybe I'm just having a particularly thick couple of days but I am genuinely confused now.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
Demas demands that the anti-Muslim protests have Muslims in them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Demas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
Demas demands that the anti-Muslim protests have Muslims in them.

---

Demas has neither demanded, requested or even expressed an opinion on the desirability of "anti-Muslim protests". For the record I would strongly condemn any such protest.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
Or maybe I'm just having a particularly thick couple of days but I am genuinely confused now.

---

Did I say 'couple of days'? If you're confused, read orfeo's post, he's put it in clearer language still.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
And Orfeo's explanation makes no sense in the light of the post trail in my last post.

---

quote:

---

I really wish, for everyone's sake, that there were anti-ISIS demonstrations happening everywhere that were at least equal in size and intensity to the recent anti-Israel demonstrations.

---

quote:

---

Get out there and protest then.

---

Makes perfect bloody sense. Sioni's first sentence was a response to Demas' first paragraph, and Sioni's second sentence was a response to Demas' second paragraph. You then went and decided to pick Demas' second paragraph and combine it with Sioni's first sentence, for reasons only you can fathom.

[ 14. August 2014, 15:05: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 

---

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
OK <penny drops> I get it now. Apologies to Sioni (and to you). I obviously am having a particular dense few days here
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
We got there in the end, is the main thing.
 

---

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
Took a whole bloody page nearly though! I blame too many late nights and being distracted by this ghastly thing called 'work'.
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Oh my am I relieved. Thanks Matt, and to orfeo for his patience in unravelling the bloody thing.
 

---

Posted by quetzalcoatl (# 16740) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Demas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
Demas demands that the anti-Muslim protests have Muslims in them.

---

Demas has neither demanded, requested or even expressed an opinion on the desirability of "anti-Muslim protests". For the record I would strongly condemn any such protest.

---

Oh fine. The anti-ISIS protests. The protests against a particular group of Muslims.

See, I can be just as casual and sloppy with language as any of you. I still understood, though, the basic flaw in obliging Muslims-that-are-not-members-of-a-particular-group-of-Muslims to be involved in the protests against a particular group of Muslims, while not similarly requiring Jews-that-are-not-members-of-the-Israeli-government to make an appearance at protests against that particular Jewish group, the Israeli government.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Demas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
Demas demands that the anti-Muslim protests have Muslims in them.

---

Demas has neither demanded, requested or even expressed an opinion on the desirability of "anti-Muslim protests". For the record I would strongly condemn any such protest.

---

Oh fine. The anti-ISIS protests. The protests against a particular group of Muslims.

See, I can be just as casual and sloppy with language as any of you. I still understood, though, the basic flaw in obliging Muslims-that-are-not-members-of-a-particular-group-of-Muslims to be involved in the protests against a particular group of Muslims, while not similarly requiring Jews-that-are-not-members-of-the-Israeli-government to make an appearance at protests against that particular Jewish group, the Israeli government.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Demas:


I haven't demanded anything, nor am I obliging anyone to do anything. I am worried though that the relationship between Muslims and non-Muslims in the West is a car headed for a brick wall. This is the sole fault of neither. But I am not going to resile from my view that a sufficiently large and angry anti-ISIS demo which is Muslim driven would help community relations and strengthen the moderates in their struggle against the extremists.

---

There have been anti-ISIS demonstrations and protests organised by Muslims. I suppose there haven't been enough of them and they haven't been big enough though

[ 14. August 2014, 18:30: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
 

---

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
To quote myself...

quote:

---

At some point, you simply have to break the cycle by deciding that there will be no more interventions, no matter how bad the atrocities are. Because if recent history has shown us anything, it is that these interventions don't do anything to stop further atrocities from occuring.

---

quote:

---

The solution is not non-intervention but appropriate and justified intervention.

---

quote:

---

Simpletons like Stetson would just let these people die.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alex Cockell:

I think people need to know where Muslims stand.

---

WHICH ONES?

Honestly, the idea that a billion Muslims all 'stand' in the same place makes as much sense as thinking that a billion Christians all think the same thing, or a billion Chinese, or a billion anybody.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alex Cockell:

The biggest error made by major govts was to STOP ISIS adherents of sympathisers from going out and joining them. If they'd been helped.. they're isolated. Then it would have been easy to cut them out of the discussion. As in "chemotherapy applied by Trident".

Yes - it's a rather politically incorrect way of dealing - but militarily it would have been *perfect*. ISIS are Tumblr Islamists.. more "pure" than AQT...

---

• Ensure that all ISIS members are located in your target zone?
• Ensure that they are sufficiently concentrated that you really can remove them all in a 'surgical' way?
• Ensure that no non-ISIS members (you know, passing innocents) happen to be in the area at the time?
• Control fall-out, post-strike water-table pollution, etc?
• Avoid making a bloody fool of yourself by creating thousands of martyrs and a new war-cry for Jihadists for years to come?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stetson:
Oh, and one more thing...

quote:

---

Simpletons like Stetson would just let these people die.

---

Do you advocate western intervention in every country where it might prevent a particular group of people from getting killed? Because that would be a lot of intervention.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Demas:
See, I think my use of language has been just fine. I think you are reading sloppy because then you can pigeonhole me and feel righteous.

---

If that were the case, I would hardly be the first person around here to do a bit of pigeonholing.
 

---

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 
I wonder if the ISIS people also have wives and children who would be killed if they were in a blast zone?

God, have mercy.
 

---

Posted by Ariston (# 10894) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Figbash:
'Militarily it would have been *perfect*', eh? Let's unpack that a bit. How are you proposing to:

• Ensure that all ISIS members are located in your target zone?
• Ensure that they are sufficiently concentrated that you really can remove them all in a 'surgical' way?
• Ensure that no non-ISIS members (you know, passing innocents) happen to be in the area at the time?
• Control fall-out, post-strike water-table pollution, etc?
• Avoid making a bloody fool of yourself by creating thousands of martyrs and a new war-cry for Jihadists for years to come?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stetson
So, I'm not saying "Who cares if more people die, I want a US pullout anyway." I'm saying "A US presence isn't going to do anything to prevent more people from dying, and may very well make things worse, therefore I want a US pullout."

---

quote:

---

There is reasonable debate to be had about whether continued US action can, in fact, do anything to make things better, and I'm certainly open to that discussion. But it is a mischaracterization to call my motivations selfish.

---

quote:

---

Do you advocate western intervention in every country where it might prevent a particular group of people from getting killed? Because that would be a lot of intervention.

---

quote:

---

I will answer that by asking you a question: Do you think it is right to say that we cannot attempt to save anyone unless we can find a way to save everyone?

---

quote:

---

The idea that military intervention inevitably provokes terrorism is a poor argument. For example, have we had over sixty years of Japanese terrorism since the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? You know the answer to that question.

---

quote:

---

After all, the West has been recklessly kind to Saudi Arabia and has not intervened in their country (except on their side in the first Gulf War), but that has seemingly done nothing to curb extremism in (and especially through) that country.

---

quote:

---

And if you feel tempted to bring up the question of motive (such as oil)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stetson:
EE wrote:

quote:

---

I will answer that by asking you a question: Do you think it is right to say that we cannot attempt to save anyone unless we can find a way to save everyone?

---

I am opposed to saving anyone(assuming that saving people means sending western soldiers and weapons into other countries), as a matter of principle. So your question does not apply to me. Maybe we can save everyone, maybe we can't. I oppose interventions either way.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
Second, there is no single organisation within islam that can act as an honest broker that would be respected by everyone else. Evensong puts the case for the OIC (Organisation for Islamic Cooperation) but a glance at the membership is enough to tell you that you'd be on a hiding to nothing there.

---

quote:

---

While you have a situation where most of the larger branches see other 'brands' as heretical, where being brought up in another strand is seen as deliberate apostasy (ditto being born into a non-muslim family), and where heresy and apostasy are punishable by death you cannot reason.

---

quote:

---

We in the west regards nuanced views and the ability to be pragmatic in the pursuit of a greater goal as strengths: the islamic world sees these traits as either weak, or wicked, or both. It really is a case of a world made up of shades of grey trying (and failing) to understand a world of black and white.

---

quote:

---

In view of your opinion, would you care to comment on the parable of the Good Samaritan? My, doubtless naive, reading of it would suggest that Christ's point was that a policy of strict non-intervention was a non-starter, but I am sure you have some very good reason for disagreeing with him.

---

quote:

---

(assuming that saving people means sending western soldiers and weapons into other countries)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Figbash:
Sheesh. Do you really think the parables were meant to be taken that literally? So it's okay to be dozy and unprepared so long as you're not one of twelve foolish virgins?

Have another go at answering the question. Prevarication suggests you can't.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:
I must have missed the part of the Parable where the Samaritan bombed the whole area to get rid of the thieves who robbed the traveller.

---

quote:

---

Only help people when it's at no possible cost to yourself. Got it.

Which neatly obscures (1) the Samaritan was on a dangerous road, too, and (2) plenty of people would have reacted against the mere existence of an interaction between a Samaritan and a 'clean' person, regardless of the reason.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stetson:

quote:

---

Only help people when it's at no possible cost to yourself. Got it.

Which neatly obscures (1) the Samaritan was on a dangerous road, too, and (2) plenty of people would have reacted against the mere existence of an interaction between a Samaritan and a 'clean' person, regardless of the reason.

---

Well, it's not just the salf-harm that could come to the Samaritan. If you read my posts, you'll see that my main point is that the OVERALL situation(not simply the interests of the USA and allies) will likely get worse as a result of intervention.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stetson:

quote:

---

Only help people when it's at no possible cost to yourself. Got it.

Which neatly obscures (1) the Samaritan was on a dangerous road, too, and (2) plenty of people would have reacted against the mere existence of an interaction between a Samaritan and a 'clean' person, regardless of the reason.

---

Well, it's not just the salf-harm that could come to the Samaritan. If you read my posts, you'll see that my main point is that the OVERALL situation(not simply the interests of the USA and allies) will likely get worse as a result of intervention.

---

That is for the injured traveller, the Samaritan (whether good or otherwise), the innkeeper and all his guests.

Meanwhile those who beat up the traveller have, shall we say, gone away. I don't remember Our Lord and Saviour chasing them with a forked stick. Maybe that passage was deleted from the accepted canon.

---

quote:

---

In the long term, how do we, the West, put right the original mess we made in the Middle East by arbitrarily dividing the area into countries (the Sykes Picot lines) and toppling Saddam in the Gulf Wars leaving a vacuum being filled by what we have now.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stetson:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
That is for the injured traveller, the Samaritan (whether good or otherwise), the innkeeper and all his guests.

Meanwhile those who beat up the traveller have, shall we say, gone away. I don't remember Our Lord and Saviour chasing them with a forked stick. Maybe that passage was deleted from the accepted canon.

---

Sinoi:

I'm afraid I'm a little slow on the uptake sometimes, and I don't understand what you're saying here. As in, I don't even know if you're argeeing or disagreeing with me.

Would you be able to re-phrase that for my linkheaded comprehension?

---

1. the West knew what it was doing and
2. the West could do anything to right the wrongs it has already perpetrated in the Middle East

quote:

---

Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Stetson - I don't know what the answer is, and if thought:

1. the West knew what it was doing and
2. the West could do anything to right the wrongs it has already perpetrated in the Middle East

I would have a lot more confidence in any action.

Can the West stand back and watch genocide, again?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stetson:

Are we certain that the US, EU etc really have the best interests of the region at heart here? Can they be trusted to refrain from actions that, while possibly in their own self-interest, would nonetheless lead to more chaos and bloodshed for the local populations?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
It's not always possible to 'do something'. There are times when it's possible to intervene and times when it isn't. It's rather difficult to stop someone falling off a cliff when they are halfway through the actual falling part.

---

quote:

---

Still, how many times in history have people in various dire situations thought that night will never be followed by day ? When I was young the news seemed always blighted by the Vietnam war . My son recently spent a month there and found it now to be a most peaceable place.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:
The Kurds already have a territory, and they have a good economy. If they also have a well-equipped army, then for all practical purposes they have a state. If ISIS does get defeated, I can't imagine any other outcome than the Kurds proclaiming their own state. Personally I think they're entitled to that, but I also think it will generate all sorts of other problems.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stetson:
Rolyn wrote:

quote:

---

Still, how many times in history have people in various dire situations thought that night will never be followed by day ? When I was young the news seemed always blighted by the Vietnam war . My son recently spent a month there and found it now to be a most peaceable place.

---

Yes, but tellingly, Vietnam's recovery began with the disengagement of outside powers, specifically the USA.

From what I've plausibly been told, there were indeed some pretty serious human-rights violations carried out by the Communists after the South fell to their control. But would things be any better today if the US had said "Well, we gotta help the South Vietnamese stay out of those godawful re-education camps, so we'd better keep up the bombings"?

I don't think so. At the end of the day, they just had to cut their losses, get the hell out, and do what they could to help the refugees who managed to escape.

---

There's a damn lot of South Vietnamese (waves, hallooooo!) who wish to hell the US had stayed, thank you. It may LOOK peaceful now, but you have only to visit any Vietnamese community in your country and talk to the elders to discover the gawdawful things that happened when we pulled out.
Can you spell T-O-R-T-U-R-E, children? Very good!


And it isn't lovely perfection today, either, regardless of what things look like to tourists.

As always, it just isn't that easy.

FULL DISCLOSURE: Mr. Lamb came within 24 hours of execution in one of those camps and was saved only by miracle. He was NOT saved from starvation, torture, beating, etc. And he's not unusual among expatriate Vietnamese, who mostly wound up in their new countries as a result of imprisonment and torture etc. Indeed, if you can find a man of that generation who didn't go through that, you've found a rare creature indeed (I think I know ONE). And sanctions against their families in VN still continue.
 

---

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
Lamb Chopped:

For most conflicts, you can find someone on either side with a personal tragedy that might have been avoided had events gone the other way. Vietnamese children who lost their limbs in American bombing raids. How would they answer the question "Do you wish the Americans had continued bombing Vietnam?"

You may know I live in the Republic Of Korea, which until the late-80s practiced torture on left-wing dissidents. Those people could say "Well, I wish the North Koreans had won the Korean War, because then I wouldn't have been tortured." Which may very well be true, but there story in and of itself doesn't really answer the question of whether a North Korean victory would have been a good thing overall.
 

---

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 
Persuant to what I wrote earlier, apparently the PKK is in fact working side-by-side with the peshmerga, and will thus likely benefit from American aid.

So to further re-boot the Good Samaritan story...

Imagine that in order to stop the beating of the traveller by the robbers, the Samaritan heads over to the local tavern and rounds up a posse, including some other robbers whose faces have appeared on "Wanted" posters put up by the Samaritan himself.

The Christian Science Monitor
 

---

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stetson:

You may know I live in the Republic Of Korea, which until the late-80s practiced torture on left-wing dissidents.

---

OMG I did not know this. What in the US we call "South Korea" did this??
 

---

Posted by Doublethink (# 1984) on :
 
Are you really this naive ? You know the states have been torturing people for years, right ?
 

---

Posted by Stetson (# 9597) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChastMastr:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stetson:

You may know I live in the Republic Of Korea, which until the late-80s practiced torture on left-wing dissidents.

---

OMG I did not know this. What in the US we call "South Korea" did this??

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChastMastr:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stetson:

You may know I live in the Republic Of Korea, which until the late-80s practiced torture on left-wing dissidents.

---

OMG I did not know this. What in the US we call "South Korea" did this??

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Drop a nuke on them.

Seriously. An agreement between the US, Russia, UK to drop a nuclear weapon on them ought to be sought.

The UN can sit this out, they will be informed as will the rest of the world a few minutes before it happens.

Then launch one. Give ISIS pause. Show them the ultimate future of their so called state.

Yes the innocent will die along with the guilty but the time to show the true horror of what lies ahead for them is at hand. No quarter can be given to this enemy and the time for walking softly is gone. The big stick needs to be wielded.

The argument that will be raised is that it will turn moderate muslims against the west. Got news for you... they already are.

In any case, what is the downside? We can't invade because too many lefty-types will get all wound up and people like me wont be able to drive to work because they will be blocking the streets protesting. You can't win a war from the air so air strikes do nothing except wind up ISIS, wind up lefties and we get no forader. Diplomacy is less use than a shitty stick.

Dropping a decent size nuclear weapon on them hasn't been tried so why not give it a go?

---

quote:

---

deano: Keep them alive to rape a few more women, what do you care eh?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

---

deano: Keep them alive to rape a few more women, what do you care eh?

---

Your idea of nuking these women is much better.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:

quote:

---

deano: Keep them alive to rape a few more women, what do you care eh?

---

Your idea of nuking these women is much better.

---

I acknowledged some innocents will die along with the guilty.

But the more guilty men are killed, the fewer women they will rape and kill. Do you think they stop at one?

---

quote:

---

(And are you really dumb enough to believe this would lead to a decrease in extremist attacks ?)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stetson:

quote:

---

(And are you really dumb enough to believe this would lead to a decrease in extremist attacks ?)

---

I think Deano assumes that the entire Muslim world would just collectively surrrender to the US, like Japan in the wake of the atom bombs.

Which makes the error of assuming that a global religion of 1.5 billion people is comparable to a nation-state, in terms of having a centrally-directed foreign policy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Deano, you are obviously a lot thicker than a thing that is pretty thick.

Penny's 'Kill them all, God will know his own' is clearly meant ironically.

You clearly don't get irony.

In fact, you clearly don't 'get' anything very much.

Dropping a nuclear bomb on ISIS ... like as if that would be possible without killing Yazidis, Christians, Kurds and those Muslims who don't support ISIS.

As if a nuclear bomb could distinguish between the various groups.

'Kill them all, God will know his own,' is a quote attributed, I believe, to Simon de Montfort (not the one over here but the one in France) when the crusaders sent against the Albigensian heretics captured the city of Beziers.

The story goes that as they stormed the gate after the retreating troops and entered the city there was no time to distinguish between the heretics and the Catholics (who had lived peacefully alongside each other for years). So the order went up, 'Kill them all, God will know his own ...'

That's the point Penny is making. Dropping an atomic bomb would kill friend and foe indiscriminately.

Clearly that's what you want to do. You sick bastard.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doublethink:
Is there anything that would make you post in plain English using a normal sentence and paragraph structure ?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
I'm conflicted deano. A double-minded man. Unstable in all my ways. A pathetic sinner. Lost. Who shall deliver me from this body of death? I thank the Lord Jesus Christ. How long oh Lord?

I don't believe God ever nuked or ever will nuke anybody.

If I'm wrong, He'll reconcile the irreconcilable.

The trouble is now I cannot live up to the ethics of the Prince of Peace.

For I no longer know what they are.

Note I say ethics.

I know His LAW, love, how is that worked out? With a nuke? With what utilitarian situation ethics?

I don't know any more.

How's that for a result deano?

Is this where faith has to come in?

How?

George is having the same problem I see. So we're in good company.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
Kill them all. God will know his own.

It is not now generally thought that the abbot of Beziers was correct.

---

quote:

---

Originally quoted by Gamaliel'Kill them all, God will know his own,' is a quote attributed, I believe, to Simon de Montfort (not the one over here but the one in France) when the crusaders sent against the Albigensian heretics captured the city of Beziers.

---

[Pedant's Hat]It was Arnaud Amalric, Abbot of Citeaux, who allegedly said it. Occasion though was indeed the Siege of Beziers. Simon de Montfort Senior was there but didn't lead the assault or utter those words[/Pedant's Hat, as you were]
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Barnabas62 - forgiven.

Everyone - take care when when making sweeping accusations about races, faiths and nationalities. Remember that the First Amendment regarding freedom of speech is part of the US Constitution and does not therefore have worldwide or even Ship-wide effect.

IANAL but I believe there are even limits to it in the United States.

Sioni Sais
Hellhost

[ 21. August 2014, 09:25: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
Thanks for the correction, Matt Black, I was going to look the quote up before posting but couldn't be arsed. After all, it was only Deano we were arguing with ...
 

---

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Marvin the Martian (# 4360) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
What would Jesus do? Drop the nuke of course... they are killing Christians!

---

He didn't act to stop people killing Himself, so what makes you think that?

You're either trolling us or you're being serious, and either way you're a fucking nutball trying to stoke up tensions and animosity between Christians and Muslims. If you're trolling then it's pretty much garden-variety fuckwittery, but if you're serious then you are frankly worse than ISIS, because at least they take care to ensure that only the people they hate get killed.

I cannot for one moment imagine that you're actually serious though. Dropping a nuke on Iraq to stop people there being persecuted? It's like the police resolving a hostage situation by killing the hostage .
 

---

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
... or by blowing up the whole building where the hostage situation is occurring. I mean, seriously, Deano, WTF? Yes, if I'm honest, there's a part of me that wants to seriously twat them and indeed kill or at least kick the shit out of anyone who flies their flag or otherwise supports them in the UK. But as a Christian - heck, as a human being - I am called to rise above that rather dark part of me and come up with something different. I'm still working on what that might be but it sure as hell won't be what you're advocating.
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Iran wants a nuke for fucks sake!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:


Now, answer the question. How do we get Islamic militants to stop targeting westerners?

Go on, fix it! If you can't I guess this will be the last post on this thread!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:


Now, answer the question. How do we get Islamic militants to stop targeting westerners?

Go on, fix it! If you can't I guess this will be the last post on this thread!

---

We concentrate our efforts on terrorists and militants, whoever they attack and disregarding the 'Islamic' element, especially as the people most able to help in identifying the terrorists are quite likely to be Islamic themselves. There was an article in Metro, the freebie newspaper, stating that some UK Muslims, including some related to UK nationals who have joined ISIS, want to join the efforts to defeat ISIS. It won't be quick but quick solutions, such as 'Shock and Awe' don't have staying power.

We certainly don't treat every Muslim and Arab as part of some amorphous enemy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Alright so you don't like my solution. Hey ho, what's new, like anyone was ever going to given the serious port-side list to the ship.

So what is the solution. I'll give you another false dichotomy (three actually) to constrain your answers...

1) Israel will continue to exist within her current borders and will continue to exist as a sovereign state within the Levant.

2) There will be no Palestinian state brought into existence in the lands currently occupied by Israel.

3) The "west" will not change policy on oil and will continue to defend their national interests by protecting the security of supply at the current levels. Yes we want the oil and will do whatever needs doing to protect the supply from the middle east.

Now, answer the question. How do we get Islamic militants to stop targeting westerners?

Go on, fix it! If you can't I guess this will be the last post on this thread!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:


Now, answer the question. How do we get Islamic militants to stop targeting westerners?

Go on, fix it! If you can't I guess this will be the last post on this thread!

---

We concentrate our efforts on terrorists and militants, whoever they attack and disregarding the 'Islamic' element, especially as the people most able to help in identifying the terrorists are quite likely to be Islamic themselves. There was an article in Metro, the freebie newspaper, stating that some UK Muslims, including some related to UK nationals who have joined ISIS, want to join the efforts to defeat ISIS. It won't be quick but quick solutions, such as 'Shock and Awe' don't have staying power.

We certainly don't treat every Muslim and Arab as part of some amorphous enemy.

---

Concentrate how SS? I'm looking for the detail here. "Concentrate our efforts" is a little woolly, and what do we actually do with them? Kill them, try and imprison them (how are we getting on with that these days? Is giving evidence in open courts working to put them away?)

---

quote:

---

It seems that quite a few here are happy to have the status quo if it avoids Western powers actually attacking anyone. That is unacceptable and no longer viable.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Alright so you don't like my solution. Hey ho, what's new, like anyone was ever going to given the serious port-side list to the ship.

So what is the solution. I'll give you another false dichotomy (three actually) to constrain your answers...

1) Israel will continue to exist within her current borders and will continue to exist as a sovereign state within the Levant.

2) There will be no Palestinian state brought into existence in the lands currently occupied by Israel.

3) The "west" will not change policy on oil and will continue to defend their national interests by protecting the security of supply at the current levels. Yes we want the oil and will do whatever needs doing to protect the supply from the middle east.

Now, answer the question. How do we get Islamic militants to stop targeting westerners?

Go on, fix it! If you can't I guess this will be the last post on this thread!

---

What the hell does the situation in eastern Syria and north-western Iraq have to do with Israel and Palestine? Is everyone who isn't nicely pale-skinned just some undifferentiated mass to you?

I suspect so, given your previous remarks about the Muslim world, all 1.5 billion of 'em. Meanwhile you would bend over backwards to have yourself oh so carefully distinguished on the basis of your nationality, class and political leanings.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
One of the oft-quoted reasons for muslim hatred of the west is because of the west's support for Israel. But if you weren't aware of that then you need to do some pre-work. Try to get the notes from a classmate.

---

Yeah. Because the people being affected by what's going on in eastern Syria and north-western Iraq are overwhelmingly Westerners. It's all about Western hatred.

I know why some people say they hate the West. What I don't know is why you think that is the sole driver of ISIS, why every single thing that happens in the world is All About You. People in other parts of the world are perfectly capable of having their own concerns and conflicts that aren't All About You until you stick your bloody nose in yelling things like "let's nuke 'em all".

(EDIT: In fact, the explicit purpose of beheading Foley was to say don't stick your nose in.)

I mean, does Iran hate the West? Quite possibly, at least in some parts of its post-revolution history. Does Iran exist for the sole purpose of hating the West? Of course it bloody doesn't.

But then, the very purpose of a 'black hat' existing is to create evil plans to destroy the 'white hats', right? No independent concerns or motivations, just an opposing force, entirely defined by its opposition.

Enjoy your cartoon world, you moron.

[ 21. August 2014, 12:33: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 

---

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Alright so you don't like my solution. Hey ho, what's new, like anyone was ever going to given the serious port-side list to the ship.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:



I mean, does Iran hate the West? Quite possibly, at least in some parts of its post-revolution history.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:



I mean, does Iran hate the West? Quite possibly, at least in some parts of its post-revolution history.

---

The main reason for that can be found in one name from its pre-revolutionary history: Kermit (and, no, I don't mean the frog; we have enough muppets here already with Deano).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by L'organist:
Actually the saying "Kill them all, God will know his own" is more correctly attributed to Dominic Guzman - known to RCs as Saint Dominic.

---

quote:

---

Dominic himself had no illusions as to the efficacy or propriety of inducing Christian orthodoxy by military activity nor, as as is sometimes alleged, had he anything to do with the establishment of inquisitions in concert with the civil power, which was done in the Midi from the end of the twelfth century. He never appears to have in any way concurred in the execution of any of those unhappy persons that then suffered. The original historians mention no other arms to have been used by him against heretics than those of instruction, patience, penance, fasting, tears and prayer; and he rebuked his ex-troubadour supporter, Fulk, Bishop of Toulouse, when he went on a visitation accompanied by soldiers, servants and sumter-mules, with the words, “The enemies of the faith cannot be overcome like that. Arm yourself with prayer, rather than a sword; wear humility rather than fine clothes.”

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Yes indeed, in actual fact the person who really said it was St Deano of No Idea ... or Dunno for short.

What he really said was, 'Nuke the lot of them and it doesn't matter if innocent people are killed as well ... the more who're killed the better, particularly if they're those scruffy, leftie layabouts who stop me getting into work on time ...'

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
This is for at least the third time of asking and no answers pertinent to the real world that exists right now has been forthcoming.

---

quote:

---

According to the Cistercian writer Caesar of Heisterbach, Arnaud-Amaury, when asked by a crusader how to distinguish the Cathars from the Catholics, answered: "Caedite eos! Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius" – "Kill them [all]! Surely the Lord discerns which [ones] are his". On the other hand, the legate's own statement, in a letter to the pope in August 1209 (col.139), states:

while discussions were still going on with the barons about the release of those in the city who were deemed to be Catholics, the servants and other persons of low degree and unarmed attacked the city without waiting for orders from their leaders. To our amazement, crying "to arms, to arms!", within the space of two or three hours they crossed the ditches and the walls and Béziers was taken. Our men spared no one, irrespective of rank, sex or age, and put to the sword almost 20,000 people. After this great slaughter the whole city was despoiled and burnt, as divine vengeance miraculously...

---

quote:

---

deano is a simple soul, a Biblical literalist.

---

Not in my Bible he ain't.... There is no easy answer here because we're starting from a mess; the ultimate answer will be to unravel the mess on our side. Counter the idea of an 'Islamic State' by rejecting, as the NT does, the idea of a 'Christian state'. It won't happen overnight, but it's the only answer and it's what Jesus, Paul, Peter, etc., told us to do....
 

---

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :
 
I resent that. I've said on a number of occaisions that the Bible means far less to me that the Nicene Creed, so where do you get Biblical literalist from?

Far as I'm concerned I'd happily junk most of it as utterly useless of the modern day.

But that is beside the point.

WHERE ARE YOUR SOLUTIONS?

WHERE ARE YOUR SOLUTIONS?

WHERE ARE YOUR SOLUTIONS?

WHERE ARE YOUR SOLUTIONS?

WHERE ARE YOUR SOLUTIONS?

WHERE ARE YOUR SOLUTIONS?

WHERE ARE YOUR SOLUTIONS?

ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTION YOU COWARDS!!

Have I made myself clear? I hope so. That's how you do it Martin, short words, few syllables and stick to the point. Does fuck all though because nobody has any answers. None. Not one of you. SS came the closest and that was woolly, vague fucking bollocks. The rest have just refused to give an any answer at all.

BECAUSE THERE AREN'T ANY ARE THERE????

Yes I'm fucking shouting, because that's all there is left to do with you lot. Perhaps you will now...

ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTION YOU COWARDS!!
 

---

Posted by Sioni Sais (# 5713) on :
 
Please stop shouting, it gives everyone the idea that you have made your mind up and won't consider any option that doesn't kill everyone who just might, possibly kill any citizen of a Western nation.

If you're going after those who are likely to kill Westerners, then you're probably looking at a few thousand but if you are looking at everyone who falls into the demographic profile, then you are probably looking at hundreds of millions.

Whatever is done will not happen overnight, will have to be done with a lot of assistance by Iraqis and Syrians and will have to be driven by intelligence. Note that word, maybe you'd like to employ it some time.
 

---

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :
 
Alright! How about a little Old Skool for you. how about internment of all muslim men between the ages of 18 and 30?

That should bring a little safety to the UK and stop some of the fuckers joining the enemy.

Downsides to that one?
 

---

Posted by Anglican't (# 15292) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Downsides to that one?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Alright! How about a little Old Skool for you. how about internment of all muslim men between the ages of 18 and 30?

That should bring a little safety to the UK and stop some of the fuckers joining the enemy.

Downsides to that one?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Alright! How about a little Old Skool for you. how about internment of all muslim men between the ages of 18 and 30?

That should bring a little safety to the UK and stop some of the fuckers joining the enemy.

Downsides to that one?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Alright! How about a little Old Skool for you. how about internment of all muslim men between the ages of 18 and 30?

That should bring a little safety to the UK and stop some of the fuckers joining the enemy.

Downsides to that one?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Alright! How about a little Old Skool for you. how about internment of all muslim men between the ages of 18 and 30?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Substitute Islam for Rome. You for a Christian.

---

quote:

---

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
So we are reliant on doing nothing much and putting our safety in the hands of "moderate muslims", whatever the hell they are. Are they the ones who don't want to hurt us but wish we just didn't exist?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
So we are reliant on doing nothing much and putting our safety in the hands of "moderate muslims", whatever the hell they are. Are they the ones who don't want to hurt us but wish we just didn't exist?

---

No, you trolling shit, they're the ones who are perfectly happy to live alongside us in peace. You know, the same way virtually everyone else of every other religion (and none) does.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Alright! How about a little Old Skool for you. how about internment of all muslim men between the ages of 18 and 30?

That should bring a little safety to the UK and stop some of the fuckers joining the enemy.

Downsides to that one?

---

Yeah, cos that really worked in Northern Ireland

In addition to what everyone else has said about your fuckwitted idea, how do you tell which 18-30 men are Muslims and which aren't? Do you have some kind of magic Muslim-o-meter or something?
 

---

Posted by seekingsister (# 17707) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Seriously, nobody recognises the voice of the terrorist who beheaded the journalist, no British muslim out there at all has any clue? Or do they have a clue and are just not ringing the police?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Alright! How about a little Old Skool for you. how about internment of all muslim men between the ages of 18 and 30?

That should bring a little safety to the UK and stop some of the fuckers joining the enemy.

Downsides to that one?

---

Yeah, cos that really worked in Northern Ireland

In addition to what everyone else has said about your fuckwitted idea, how do you tell which 18-30 men are Muslims and which aren't? Do you have some kind of magic Muslim-o-meter or something?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by seekingsister:

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Seriously, nobody recognises the voice of the terrorist who beheaded the journalist, no British muslim out there at all has any clue? Or do they have a clue and are just not ringing the police?

---

You don't think that people close to this individual might have fears for their life if they were to make a report?

This happens in all sorts of communities, it's not a Muslim thing. In the US the phrase is "snitches get stitches."

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
So, how are you going to watch c 1 million men on a daily basis? Or even know which 1 million to watch?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Tough. It's time for them to take a stand against the terrorist in their midst, openly and loudly.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Geographical profiling will do for a start in the UK as the majority of muslims live in a band of towns and cities between Oldham and Leeds, and then add in the other large communities in Nottingham, Sheffield, Birmingham, Leicester and London.

That should get us 90% of the way there without batting an eyelid.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Yeah right! 1.5 billion nice muslims and a few hundred terrorists and nobody is grassing them up. None of them are known to the 1.5 billion eh?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by seekingsister:

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Tough. It's time for them to take a stand against the terrorist in their midst, openly and loudly.

---

As long as you realize this is not some moderate Muslim conspiracy and that it happens in many communities where people fear for their lives and the lives of their families if they report extremists and criminals to external authorities.

Ever heard of Omerta?

---

quote:

---

At least 500 people from the UK are thought to have gone to Syria to fight - and many of them have already returned.

Some people in Muslim communities believe that quasi-official estimate to be a woeful underestimate. They have seen significant numbers of youngsters motivated to go to Syria either out of anger or because they have bought into the propaganda pouring forth on social media.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Yes, and it is destroyed when enough good people stand together.

---

quote:

---

Nothing else will persuade me there are any such things as moderate muslims, only muslims who kill and those who enable them either actively or passively.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by seekingsister:
you start seeming bigoted.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by seekingsister:
you start seeming bigoted.

---

"Start"?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:
You are talking complete nonsense Deano. I live in a predominately Muslim area in Rochdale. My friends and neighbours are Muslims. I pray for peace with my dear friend Adiba. These people are just as outraged by this disgusting organisation calling itself ISIS as we are.

You are talking out utter ignorant prejudice.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
It will be an Israeli nuke though, if ISIS even so much as look south-west over the Golan Heights!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican't:

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
It will be an Israeli nuke though, if ISIS even so much as look south-west over the Golan Heights!

---

Why would it? As far as I can see, Israel has shown restraint when Middle Eastern aggresors try to provoke it. I'm thinking, for example, of Saddam Hussein's Scud attacks against Israel during the Gulf War.

___

I think the issue of British jihadis does raise questions about immigration, integration and Moslem integration in particular. But this thread is now obviously not the place to have a discussion on that.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Mine is outrageous and violent and distasteful and horrific but it is inevitable.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Invading Israel would be suicide.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Third rate fantasy. Nobody is nuking anyone. Especially not Jesus. Though I'm sure you'll have it that He did it to the Cities of the Plain in that first rate one.

---

quote:

---

Hamas is ISIS. ISIS is Hamas. They’re enemies of Peace. They’re enemies of all civilized countries.

---

quote:

---

ISIS and Hamas are “Two branches of the same poison tree,” and cited the oppression of women, Christians and gays as a shared program.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Couple of quotes from Benjamin Netanyahu...

quote:

---

Hamas is ISIS. ISIS is Hamas. They’re enemies of Peace. They’re enemies of all civilized countries.

---

quote:

---

ISIS and Hamas are “Two branches of the same poison tree,” and cited the oppression of women, Christians and gays as a shared program.

---

Israel is linking Hamas and ISIS and will not make a distinction between them.

---

quote:

---

If he's getting that information from Mossad then Israel's fucked.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stetson:

quote:

---

If he's getting that information from Mossad then Israel's fucked.

---

I doubt his statement is based on any hard information at all, but is rather something along the lines of "Those politicians are all the same, buncha crooks, in it for themselves."

---

quote:

---

"Politician don't take a dump without a plan son!"

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Sorry, they were Twitter messages from the PM's office.

Link

He was talking to an audience of course but to paraphrase Admiral Josh Painter in The Hunt for Red October...

quote:

---

"Politician don't take a dump without a plan son!"

---

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Albertus:
...and Pakistani nukes in the middle? I think I was right: you really do get off on the idea of great oig bangs and towering mushroom clouds, don't you?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Ah, this is like Screwtape Letters, with Deano showing us what the Devil would say, or Colbert with his extreme parody of the crazy right wing. Well done! It took me a while to get it. I thought you were actually a loathsome hate-filled monster!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by seekingsister:

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Seriously, nobody recognises the voice of the terrorist who beheaded the journalist, no British muslim out there at all has any clue? Or do they have a clue and are just not ringing the police?

---

You don't think that people close to this individual might have fears for their life if they were to make a report?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Deano, please stop being an asshole.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Sorry, I reject the premise of your post.

---

quote:

---

Penny S: Deano reminds me of a computer game about world politics I was shown once (at an astronomy meeting!?) in which any and every scenario ended with nuclear war.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Sorry, I reject the premise of your post.

---

The sole premise of the post was that you are currently being an asshole.

The evidence that this is true is overwhelming to anyone who has not in fact disappeared up the anus in question.

---

quote:

---

which is why we should buy them off and talk to them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
We need to be stronger than they are, more ruthless than they are and more vicious than they are. If they think we can and will exterminate them out of hand without a moments thought then they will probably leave the west alone.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:


I believe the old idea of Pax Romanus needs to be brought back where a Roman citizen could walk across the known world safely lest the might of the Roman army come crashing down around you... Pax Westernus anyone?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:


I believe the old idea of Pax Romanus needs to be brought back where a Roman citizen could walk across the known world safely lest the might of the Roman army come crashing down around you... Pax Westernus anyone?

---

If you read your history you will find out that Rome endured some terrible defeats and they defined the extent of Roman territory. Teutoburg Forest, the running battles against the Gauls and Celts, the Battle of Carrhae, in what is now Turkey, plus a whole raft of defeats in Africa before Carthage was subdued.

There was a Pax Romanus, but it only held where Rome saw fit, and Romans were smart enough not to pretend otherwise.

---

quote:

---

Originally said by President Josiah Bartlet:
Did you know that two thousand years ago a Roman citizen could walk across the face of the known world free of the fear of molestation? He could walk across the Earth unharmed, cloaked only in the protection of the words civis Romanus -- I am a Roman citizen. So great was the retribution of Rome, universally certain, should any harm befall even one of its citizens.

---

quote:

---

I believe the old idea of Pax Romanus needs to be brought back where a Roman citizen could walk across the known world safely lest the might of the Roman army come crashing down around you... Pax Westernus anyone?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I had to laugh at that comment, 'they will probably leave the west alone'. I think that could be reversed - when the fuck will the West ever leave the Middle East alone, or the Arab world, come to that? Poke a wasps' nest, and guess what, lots of angry wasps come buzzing out, and then we shout, leave us alone. How fucking stupid and ignorant can we become? Well, plenty of way to go yet.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I had to laugh at that comment, 'they will probably leave the west alone'. I think that could be reversed - when the fuck will the West ever leave the Middle East alone, or the Arab world, come to that? Poke a wasps' nest, and guess what, lots of angry wasps come buzzing out, and then we shout, leave us alone. How fucking stupid and ignorant can we become? Well, plenty of way to go yet.

---

As much as I loathe Islamic radicals, that's the constant message that the West receives whenever it bothers asking them what they want. Many of them want the West to stop interfering in their affairs and to stop arming Israel to the teeth.

Which of course the US will not do, because of oil in the region.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I had to laugh at that comment, 'they will probably leave the west alone'. I think that could be reversed - when the fuck will the West ever leave the Middle East alone, or the Arab world, come to that? Poke a wasps' nest, and guess what, lots of angry wasps come buzzing out, and then we shout, leave us alone. How fucking stupid and ignorant can we become? Well, plenty of way to go yet.

---

As much as I loathe Islamic radicals, that's the constant message that the West receives whenever it bothers asking them what they want. Many of them want the West to stop interfering in their affairs and to stop arming Israel to the teeth.

Which of course the US will not do, because of oil in the region.

---

Is it just the oil? I suppose so, plus so-called 'strategic interests'. The West seems to have had a love/hate relationship with the Arab world for a long time, and can't leave them alone.

It's striking that massacres in many parts of the world, e.g. Congo, elicit indifference by Western politicians and intellectuals. I suppose Congo is not in our 'sphere of interest' or something. I think 4 million have died there in the recent wars.

---

quote:

---

As much as I loathe Islamic radicals, that's the constant message that the West receives whenever it bothers asking them what they want. Many of them want the West to stop interfering in their affairs and to stop arming Israel to the teeth.

Which of course the US will not do, because of oil in the region.

---

quote:

---

My suspicion is that in the West, many people have this idea of Africa always being a region of poverty, violence, and criminality, so the result is "why bother, Africa has always been that way, why bother interfering?"*

---

quote:

---

The reason why some Arab regimes, particularly Egypt, have been relatively quiet about Israel's current action in Gaza is that they also despise Hamas and would not cry a tear if it was dismantled.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:
I imagine that at least some Arab countries would be willing to tolerate Hamas right now, because removing them from their sphere of influence would leave a vacuum where ISIS could step in.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by LeRoc:
A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
As much as I loathe Islamic radicals, that's the constant message that the West receives whenever it bothers asking them what they want. Many of them want the West to stop interfering in their affairs and to stop arming Israel to the teeth.

Which of course the US will not do, because of oil in the region.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
My suspicion is that in the West, many people have this idea of Africa always being a region of poverty, violence, and criminality, so the result is "why bother, Africa has always been that way, why bother interfering?"*

*Conveniently forgetting or being ignorant of the legacy of European colonialism in Africa

---

quote:

---

Hezbollah have raised their heads as voices of moderation, against IS

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Yes, I thought the same. There is a kind of subterranean racism in all this - IS can kill lots of towelheads, who after all, are (some of them), themselves Muslims, but a nice American boy with clean-cut features - that is a step too far.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
You stop bullies by giving the worst bully such a good fucking kicking that you put him in hospital and he needs to have facial surgery and new teeth put in at some point. The other's will not dare to try anything.

It works in the playground and in the pub. It will work with muslim fanaticism as well.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
You try these tactics, do you?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
Or do you just advocate them for the lower classes you've occasionally talked about?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
How did they go? Ever get any injuries yourself?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
Ever try it with a bully armed with a grenade launcher?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Fuck you orfeo and the cowardly little horse you rode in on. Not all of us went to nice, peaceful posh little schools in nice, peaceful posh little areas like you and and because of that some of us recognise the warning signs and know the solutions.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Nope. None of the people I fought ever had grenade launchers. If they had I would have scaled up the violence and dropped a nuke on them. Oh... hang on a sec?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
And I'm not interested in minimum violence. You stop bullies by giving the worst bully such a good fucking kicking that you put him in hospital and he needs to have facial surgery and new teeth put in at some point. The other's will not dare to try anything.

It works in the playground and in the pub. It will work with muslim fanaticism as well.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
I put one of them in hospital with fractured skull. He was off school for a few months. Am I proud of that? No. I was pleased by the lack of bullying for a good year or so. C'est la vie.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
I don't even mind if people are genuinely moderate muslims. But I don't see any.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:

So that's my outlook on life - get the first hit in before the other guy seizes the initiative and it ends up as me getting the shoeing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
And I'm not interested in minimum violence. You stop bullies by giving the worst bully such a good fucking kicking that you put him in hospital and he needs to have facial surgery and new teeth put in at some point. The other's will not dare to try anything.

It works in the playground and in the pub. It will work with muslim fanaticism as well.

---

Strong words on the internet there deano. The methods you advocate work well there too, where there's no possibility* of anyone taking a cyberbully, or an offensive loudmouth, outside and giving them a good shoeing.

*Actually that's not entirely true: there's a Welsh rugby site I use which also has pen-names, but everyone lives within c 30 miles of Bridgend and at least 80% are known to others. It's passionate, but civil. Even to the English.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
I put one of them in hospital with fractured skull. He was off school for a few months.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dave W.:
So in this story in which you attack someone and fracture his skull, do you also end up serving time in prison?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dave W.:
Does this mean we're not going to get any details about that time you attacked someone and put him in the hospital with a fractured skull?

I was hoping you could make it sound more impressive. As it is, it hardly compares to that time when I killed a man in Reno, just to watch him die.

---

Hey come on, I beat up a whole gang, just with a pencil. 3 of them ended up in hospital, one of them had an orgasm, and one of them asked me to marry him. I was well 'ard!
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 
I'm not left-wing at all, deano. It's just that you are so far to the right that anyone who isn't Genghiz Khan looks like some kind of woolly librul who isn't well 'ard.
 

---

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 
Is "well 'ard" some sort of sexual thing? It sounds like some sort of sexual thing...

knowwhatimean knowwhatimean saynomore saynomore eh eh eh?
 

---

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Deano, please stop being an asshole.

---

But you only think I am because of you socialist views. If you didn't have those you may - like MPC - completely agree with me.

Sorry, I reject the premise of your post.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Some of you didn't like the answers. I don't give a fuck.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dave W.:
Does this mean we're not going to get any details about that time you attacked someone and put him in the hospital with a fractured skull?

I was hoping you could make it sound more impressive. As it is, it hardly compares to that time when I killed a man in Reno, just to watch him die.

---

Hey come on, I beat up a whole gang, just with a pencil. 3 of them ended up in hospital, one of them had an orgasm, and one of them asked me to marry him. I was well 'ard!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:

I don't even mind if people are genuinely moderate muslims. But I don't see any. The religion itself precludes moderation. It abhors western values and culture and seems to be predicated on destroying it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
I don't even mind if people are genuinely moderate muslims. But I don't see any.

---

To be fair to you ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dave W.:
Does this mean we're not going to get any details about that time you attacked someone and put him in the hospital with a fractured skull?

I was hoping you could make it sound more impressive. As it is, it hardly compares to that time when I killed a man in Reno, just to watch him die.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Deano is just blustering - and also displaying his lamentable lack of geographical understanding. Some of the communities he wants to nuke contain people of many faiths and not just particular branches of Islam.

But that doesn't matter to him. They are all foreigners so it doesn't count.

All I can say is that he must have received a pretty high level of bullying to turn him into the monster he is today.

There was a fair bit of bullying at the bog-standard comprehensive I attended in a South Wales Valley. I'm a twin so attracted a fair deal of attention - 'If I hit yewer brother will yew feel it as well?'

It wasn't pleasant, but it didn't turn me into a venomous, twisted cross between Jeremy Clarkson and Attila the Hun.

Deano is proud of his own ignorance. That's the scary thing.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It wasn't pleasant, but it didn't turn me into a venomous, twisted cross between Jeremy Clarkson and Attila the Hun.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rolyn:
Deano, your strategy sounds like a good way of turning the 90% or so of moderate peaceful muslims into fire-breathing Western haters .

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by rolyn:
I sometimes think that at some time, in the far off future, if/when Islam becomes the dominant Global religion people will say it forced Christianity out by the sword .
The truth, as many of us know it now , is that much of Western Christianity is dying on it's arse through natural causes without the help of anyone's sword.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Is it really alright to advocate dropping a nuclear bomb on Mecca?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
]I would rather eradicate all muslims than have Islam forced upon me regardless of the state of Christianity.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
I would rather eradicate all muslims than have Islam forced upon me regardless of the state of Christianity.

Is that clear enough for you?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by QLib:

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
]I would rather eradicate all muslims than have Islam forced upon me regardless of the state of Christianity.

---

And how are you going to do that? Nuke the entire globe and start again from scratch? You sound more and more like a Bond villain with every word you post.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by QLib:

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
]I would rather eradicate all muslims than have Islam forced upon me regardless of the state of Christianity.

---

And how are you going to do that? Nuke the entire globe and start again from scratch? You sound more and more like a Bond villain with every word you post.

---

Yes. I just showed this stuff to my wife, and she laughed like a drain, and said, you wally, you've been set up. Damn, I thought I'd got good at detecting wind-ups. There's no fool like an old fool.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
quetzalcoatl - unfortunately deano is consistently the same poster across the boards - and this suggests he's for real.

I have met and worked with teenage boys (and their fathers) who have similar views. Too much CoD and war-gaming seems to build some very unrealistic ideas as to what is possible and how real people react.

I guess what we should request is that games designers include radicalisation as an effect of actions and that the implementation of a nuclear weapon ends the game with everyone killed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
By the way, my quote above was paraphrased from Jed Bartlett's speech in The West Wing. Is it accurate? No and a few of you have shown that to be the case.

That is an irrelevance though. i agree with the principle.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I'm surprised that such religious hatred is OK on this forum. Is it really alright to advocate dropping a nuclear bomb on Mecca?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:

quote:

---

Originally posted by rolyn:
Deano, your strategy sounds like a good way of turning the 90% or so of moderate peaceful muslims into fire-breathing Western haters .

---

Fine. Bring it on. Let's get it over and done with and start the war that they want. We will win at a stroll and they will be eradicated from existence which makes your following point moot.

---

What, you mean how we won at a stroll the last time?

You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia" - Vizzini in the Princess Bride.
 

---

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think he didn't get enough titty from his mummy; it's well known that this produces intense revenge fantasies for the rest of one's life. I bet a lot of jihadists are into heavy titty porn.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:

quote:

---

Originally posted by rolyn:
Deano, your strategy sounds like a good way of turning the 90% or so of moderate peaceful muslims into fire-breathing Western haters .

---

Fine. Bring it on. Let's get it over and done with and start the war that they want. We will win at a stroll and they will be eradicated from existence which makes your following point moot.

---

What, you mean how we won at a stroll the last time?

You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia" - Vizzini in the Princess Bride.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:

quote:

---

Originally posted by rolyn:
Deano, your strategy sounds like a good way of turning the 90% or so of moderate peaceful muslims into fire-breathing Western haters .

---

Fine. Bring it on. Let's get it over and done with and start the war that they want. We will win at a stroll and they will be eradicated from existence which makes your following point moot.

---

What, you mean how we won at a stroll the last time?

You fell victim to one of the classic blunders - The most famous of which is "never get involved in a land war in Asia" - Vizzini in the Princess Bride.

---

Err, I said we WILL win at a stroll. Not we DID win at a stroll.

Proof-reading before hitting "Add Reply" is your friend. Try it. Dickhead.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It's 'you're' not 'your'.

They obviously didn't learn you how to spell proper at that sink-estate school you managed to escape from through force of arms.

Knuckle-dragger.

---

What a pity you're completely wrong. Stay out of it.
 

---

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :
 


I was right about it being 'you're' and not 'your'.

'You're ugly' not 'your ugly'.

But I'll stay out of it. The rest of the post was a jibe because ...

Oh never mind ...
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gamaliel:


I was right about it being 'you're' and not 'your'.

'You're ugly' not 'your ugly'.

But I'll stay out of it. The rest of the post was a jibe because ...

Oh never mind ...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
... Let's get it over and done with and start the war that they want. We will win at a stroll ...

---

quote:

---

"It is our duty as Australians to speak out against the terror and genocide happening in the Middle East and elsewhere," he said.

---

Well go on then. Don't let me stop you. Whilst your at it Mr Youssef can you name names please?
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
Oh yes, because an Australian Muslim has the whole of Iraq and Syria on speed dial.

Do you know what the MOST irritating part of the deano show is? For me, anyway?

It's the constant jumping up and down demanding that other people come up with solutions and information and what-not.

As if anybody has TIME in between reacting to your ideas. Seriously. We're dealing with someone who thinks that it's preferable to spend 5 minutes coming up with an idiotic solution and doing it NOW rather than spending days or weeks considering approaches to a nuanced and complex problem.

If you'd just stop dominating the thread like a yapping dog and shut the fuck up for a while, maybe the rest of us would actually have time to discuss something else besides your relentless egotistical dominance of the conversation through deliberately offering up the most over-the-top schemes you can think of.

I don't think you actually want solutions. I think you actively enjoy being the centre of attention. I think you're a childish troll.
 

---

Posted by deano (# 12063) on :
 
I have been informed in the Styx that I am engaging in hate-speech. I reject that and I will clarify it...

1) I have no wish to kill any innocent people. But in wars they do die. That's the nature of war. If innocents have to die then I prefer them to be of the muslim faith than western. I don't believe that is hate, just a simple statement of the reality of war and of finding oneself on a particular side.

2) I believe that nobody - certainly on this thread, and not it TRW - has any answers to islamic militantism. I believe that a disproportionate response will be more productive - for the west - than a proportionate one. I don't want to drop a bomb on them because they are muslim, but because some of them want to kill me. If they were white lesbian women living in a particular part of the world trying to destroy what I hold dear then I would be equally as keen to drop a bomb on them. In fact if they were white, middle-class people living in a particular part of the world and they wanted to destroy all I hold dear, then I would advocate dropping a bomb on them too. But at the moment neither of the latter two circumstances exist. There is a real one to deal with.

3) I am a Christian - whether you like it or not - and I do not recognise islam as a legitimate faith. I'm sorry but I don't see how I can, as a Christian, recognise as an equal, a faith that doesn't agree with Christ as God made flesh, or that he was crucified and was resurrected. I agree people holding those views in faith have a right to equality under the law - that is beyond dispute - but don't ask me to personally give it legitimacy beyond what the law says I must. If you want it in stark terms, I prefer to follow a religion that says Jesus Christ was the Son of God and he rose from death, than one that denies that on the strength of some blokes dreams. Sorry.

4) I don't give a damn about the colour of anyone's skin, be they black, white, brown or whatever. A black Jew or a white Buddhist isn't out to destroy the culture I live in and force me to convert to their faith. A white muslim might well be.

5) I admit I do hate people to want to destroy me, my family, my faith, my country or my culture. Be they muslim or whatever. It's just that at the moment the ones who do want to destroy those things ARE muslim. Do I hate all muslims? No. No I do not. Let me state that loud and clear. There is a definite line to be drawn in the sand here and I will make it clear that I do NOT hate all muslims. I do hate the ones with violence in their hearts. I'm just not sure what is in the hearts of the remaining ones. As keeps getting quoted on the ship "By their fruits shall you know them". I want to see the fruits of their moderation.

6) I really don't give a rat-fuck about some of the amateur psychology or grammar-Nazis that aren't able to keep up with the debate and want to divert it, and I'm more than willing to get down and dirty trading offensive insults if that's what is desired.
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Do I hate all muslims? No. No I do not.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by QLib:

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
]I would rather eradicate all muslims than have Islam forced upon me regardless of the state of Christianity.

---

And how are you going to do that? Nuke the entire globe and start again from scratch? You sound more and more like a Bond villain with every word you post.

---

Yes. I just showed this stuff to my wife, and she laughed like a drain, and said, you wally, you've been set up. Damn, I thought I'd got good at detecting wind-ups. There's no fool like an old fool.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
Then maybe you'd like to retract the suggestion of locking up all Muslim men between the ages of 18 and 30 without trial?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
And maybe you'd like to find a capital letter once in a while. If you are a "Christian" then they are "Muslims". If you're going to continue to talk about "muslims", I'm going to start calling you a "christian". You successfully capitalise "Jew" and "Buddhist" while relentlessly refusing to give followers of Islam the same courtesy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
How unsurprising that someone as PC as you noticed that I was doing that. It was deliberate on my part.

No I will not give them the benefit of capital letters. Why should I when I do not give their faith equal credence to mine except so far as the law mandates it. The law doesn't say I must capitalise any words as far as I'm aware.

I'll knock of the capitalism of buddhist by all means, and any others that I refer to in teh future such as hindu or shinto. Not Jew though, because Christ was a Jew and they are part of the Judeo-Christian ethos that underpins my own faith. I'll give them the same respect as Christianity.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stetson:
Boris Johnson says the people who go to Syria and Iraq should be considered guitly of terrorism until proven innocent.

The Guardian

This is starting to remind me of Iraq 2003, only with less skepticism from the global community.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stetson:
Boris Johnson says the people who go to Syria and Iraq should be considered guitly of terrorism until proven innocent.

The Guardian

This is starting to remind me of Iraq 2003, only with less skepticism from the global community.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stetson:
Boris Johnson says the people who go to Syria and Iraq should be considered guitly of terrorism until proven innocent.

The Guardian

This is starting to remind me of Iraq 2003, only with less skepticism from the global community.

---

How about Western politicians who go out there? Are they presumed guilty?

---

quote:

---

There are certainly British Kurds going out to fight with the peshmerga; I suppose at the moment they are good guys, but just wait a few months, and maybe they will be wearing the black hats.

---

quote:

---

Maybe various governments could publish regular bulletin boards, indicating which groups are in favour and which not.

Thus, Shia militia - possibly OK, unless involved in massacres.
Sunni militia - dodgy, especially with black flags.
Kurdish militia - good guys right now.
Non-Islamist Syrian rebels - oh, I don't fucking know.
Hezbollah - formerly very bad guys, but might be useful to us.
pro-Assad groups - once very bad, but possibly on the rise now.
pro-Iranian, see under Syrian rebels, no idea.
Deano - jihadist nutter, sedate.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I've read accounts of some kids who went out to Syria, rather 'moderate', whatever that means, and getting radicalized out there. I don't know how that would work really, whether it's some kind of adolescent melodrama going on, or maybe the Islamists are the best fighters?

Also maybe it happens in civil wars - both sides tend to get more and more extreme - in the Spanish Civil War, you ended up with priests being shot in the head, and so on. I suppose this is a polarization. I remember Trotsky wrote about this, and said that civil wars become desperate really, and you end up with barbarism.

But maybe all wars do this - you end up with torture, and shooting of prisoners and so on.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by QLib:

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I've read accounts of some kids who went out to Syria, rather 'moderate', whatever that means, and getting radicalized out there. I don't know how that would work really, whether it's some kind of adolescent melodrama going on, or maybe the Islamists are the best fighters?

Also maybe it happens in civil wars - both sides tend to get more and more extreme - in the Spanish Civil War, you ended up with priests being shot in the head, and so on. I suppose this is a polarization. I remember Trotsky wrote about this, and said that civil wars become desperate really, and you end up with barbarism.

But maybe all wars do this - you end up with torture, and shooting of prisoners and so on.

---

But sometimes people come back from wars older and wiser: more disillusioned, more sceptical about their own side's propaganda, more aware that right is not all one side, more aware of the dirty aspects of warfare.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:


'Come, friendly bombs, and fall on Slough!
Too many Muslims live there now.'

(Apologies to P. Larkin - and, of course, to all 'nice' Muslims. And to everyone else who isn't in an entirely cynical mood.)]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
Well, perhaps that's what it will take. A mindset that matches theirs rather than a mindset that is weaker than theirs and has no answers anyway.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gildas:
The thing is that Muslims, AFAICS, fall into three categories:

Firstly there are the Muslims who have no intention of murdering Deano, You may say that they are a little bit lax. I could not possibly comment. But there they are, and there are probably millions of them.

Then there are the ones who believe that, in theory, Deano ought to be killed. He is after all an infidel who does not pay the salient taxes and one must never discount the power of pure irritation. Nonetheless the Muslims in this category, whilst sagely agreeing that Deano's life is forfeit, are probably not going to do very much about it. I suspect that this category are outnumbered by category one but I have other things to do with my life than seek out Muslims who hold that Eldrad, sorry, Deano must live!

Finally you have actual Muslims who are conspiring to make an end of Deano. I suspect that these are rare but you never know your luck and if he ceases to post on the Ship for any length of time we can chalk one up to the medieval headchoppers for Mohammed. As The Blessed Freddy Mercury (PBUH) observed: Ebrahiem, Ebrahiem, Ebrahiem, Allah, Allah, Allah Will pray for you...Hey!

In any event, this means that any rational soul will want to dial down the bellicosity because once we realise that the difficulties in the Middle East do not revolve around Deano and that "Whack Deano" comes about 743rd on Al Quaeda's "to do" list. We can start treating Radical Islam as a problem which requires a rational solution and not an opportunity for wetting our pants and screaming for our mummy. I realise that this will require Deano to stop treating things as an opportunity for self-dramatisation but, hey, ess-aitch-one-tee happens.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gildas:
The thing is that Muslims, AFAICS, fall into three categories:

Firstly there are the Muslims who have no intention of murdering Deano, You may say that they are a little bit lax. I could not possibly comment. But there they are, and there are probably millions of them.

Then there are the ones who believe that, in theory, Deano ought to be killed. He is after all an infidel who does not pay the salient taxes and one must never discount the power of pure irritation. Nonetheless the Muslims in this category, whilst sagely agreeing that Deano's life is forfeit, are probably not going to do very much about it. I suspect that this category are outnumbered by category one but I have other things to do with my life than seek out Muslims who hold that Eldrad, sorry, Deano must live!

Finally you have actual Muslims who are conspiring to make an end of Deano. I suspect that these are rare but you never know your luck and if he ceases to post on the Ship for any length of time we can chalk one up to the medieval headchoppers for Mohammed. As The Blessed Freddy Mercury (PBUH) observed: Ebrahiem, Ebrahiem, Ebrahiem, Allah, Allah, Allah Will pray for you...Hey!

In any event, this means that any rational soul will want to dial down the bellicosity because once we realise that the difficulties in the Middle East do not revolve around Deano and that "Whack Deano" comes about 743rd on Al Quaeda's "to do" list. We can start treating Radical Islam as a problem which requires a rational solution and not an opportunity for wetting our pants and screaming for our mummy. I realise that this will require Deano to stop treating things as an opportunity for self-dramatisation but, hey, ess-aitch-one-tee happens.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dave W.:
Does this mean we're not going to get any details about that time you attacked someone and put him in the hospital with a fractured skull?

I was hoping you could make it sound more impressive. As it is, it hardly compares to that time when I killed a man in Reno, just to watch him die.

---

Oh you want detail. Okay....

Two of the schools biggest bullies sat down one either side one wet lunchtime. We had bays and I was sat in an end one which backed up to a brick wall. My back was to the wall. i was reading a physics text book.

As I say they sat down next to me. They started to take the piss and try to grab the book. I knew what was going to happen because I'd seen it before and suffered it before.

I stuffed the text book back in my bag, which had other books in as well. It was a sports style bag. I grabbed the handles and swung it up as hard and fast as I could into the guy on my lefts face. His head was slammed back into the wall and he fell face forwards. He was out for twenty seconds or so. The other guy legged it. I walked away.

The next thing I knew was a note coming round saying xxxx had been taken to hospital with a possible fractured skull.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by deano:
I do wonder, what would the families of those who died on 911, in the London tube bombings, Madrid, and those relatives of Daniel Pearl, James Foley, Jennifer Lynne Matthews, Kenneth Clodfelter and countless others who have died at the hands of jihadis, make of your oh so smart post. I bet they would appreciate the delicate wit contained within it.

---

quote:

---

The people actually saddled with carrying out the order did. Not. Find. It. Fun.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stetson:
Boris Johnson says the people who go to Syria and Iraq should be considered guitly of terrorism until proven innocent.

The Guardian

This is starting to remind me of Iraq 2003, only with less skepticism from the global community.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stetson:
Boris Johnson says the people who go to Syria and Iraq should be considered guitly of terrorism until proven innocent.

The Guardian

This is starting to remind me of Iraq 2003, only with less skepticism from the global community.

---

Short of the couple of dozen who've declared themselves as jihadists in Syria and Iraq, and probably a few more dozen that MI6 and Co have IDed, how exactly are passport control meant to ascertain that, given that these are British citizens with British passports? I can just imagine the conversation:

"Go anywhere nice for your holidays, sir?"

"Yeah, I spent the summer fighting for the Caliphate against infidels and apostates."

Can't imagine it somehow...

---

quote:

---

I do wonder, what would the families of those who died on 911, in the London tube bombings, Madrid, and those relatives of Daniel Pearl, James Foley, Jennifer Lynne Matthews, Kenneth Clodfelter and countless others who have died at the hands of jihadis, make of your oh so smart post. I bet they would appreciate the delicate wit contained within it.

---

quote:

---

I on the other hand just think you are a coward with no regard for the victims of jihadis, only for the victims of western retribution for those deaths.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Let them go. Just don't let them come back.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stetson:
Boris Johnson says the people who go to Syria and Iraq should be considered guitly of terrorism until proven innocent.

The Guardian

This is starting to remind me of Iraq 2003, only with less skepticism from the global community.

---

Short of the couple of dozen who've declared themselves as jihadists in Syria and Iraq, and probably a few more dozen that MI6 and Co have IDed, how exactly are passport control meant to ascertain that, given that these are British citizens with British passports? I can just imagine the conversation:

"Go anywhere nice for your holidays, sir?"

"Yeah, I spent the summer fighting for the Caliphate against infidels and apostates."

Can't imagine it somehow...

---

Le them go. Just don't let them come back.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It also says that no-one can be rehabilitated. Well, the TV is full of ex-jihadists, who seem to be giving very useful insights into jihadism, and how it develops in Brits.

---

quote:

---

That doesn't answer my question: how do you know they've been? I mean, my secretary has just come back from a holiday in Bodrum, Turkey - at least that's what she's told me....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
And you still haven't answered the question: how are you going to stop them coming back?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
And you still haven't answered the question: how are you going to stop them coming back?

---

If there's credible evidence that they have been involved in jihadist activities you stop them coming back. That is what border control is for. The geezer who checks the passports has them detained and they are sent back to Iraq or Syria or wherever it is they came from.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
And you still haven't answered the question: how are you going to stop them coming back?

---

If there's credible evidence that they have been involved in jihadist activities you stop them coming back. That is what border control is for. The geezer who checks the passports has them detained and they are sent back to Iraq or Syria or wherever it is they came from.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
And you still haven't answered the question: how are you going to stop them coming back?

---

If there's credible evidence that they have been involved in jihadist activities you stop them coming back. That is what border control is for. The geezer who checks the passports has them detained and they are sent back to Iraq or Syria or wherever it is they came from.

---

I still haven't the foggiest idea why you would think sending them back to rejoin the jihad is preferable to prosecuting them. I mean, you're literally talking about turning them back at the border and saying "please go and rejoin the war".

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Matt Black:
And you still haven't answered the question: how are you going to stop them coming back?

---

If there's credible evidence that they have been involved in jihadist activities you stop them coming back. That is what border control is for. The geezer who checks the passports has them detained and they are sent back to Iraq or Syria or wherever it is they came from.

---

I still haven't the foggiest idea why you would think sending them back to rejoin the jihad is preferable to prosecuting them. I mean, you're literally talking about turning them back at the border and saying "please go and rejoin the war".

---

Because as I said, I'd feel more comfortable with them over there than over here.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ad Orientem:
Yeah! Like they'd stay prison. What planet are you on?

---