quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
Utterly inconsequential.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
There was one point where I was very much reminded that the creator of the series also wrote Sherlock, when he was telling everyone to shut up. That was much more Cumberbatch, but another brilliant anarchic, sometimes questionable hero figure.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
I also didn't like the direction. Too flashy. And, as one review observed, the choice to use heavily coloured lighting in the corridors just drew your attention to the corridors when they were trying to distract you from the fact they were quite boring corridors.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
It was a bank, after all. Bank architecture isn't usually wildly exciting with interesting corridors.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
It was a bank, after all. Bank architecture isn't usually wildly exciting with interesting corridors.

---

Yes, but what bothered me most about the corridors was how darn wide they were. For an area that was supposedly forbidden and basically never used, that was a lot of corridor space.

---

quote:

---

Yes, but what bothered me most about the corridors was how darn wide they were. For an area that was supposedly forbidden and basically never used, that was a lot of corridor space.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twangist:
What happened to the quest to find Gallifrey which looked like it was going to start at the end of the 50th anniv special?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
There was an odd moment nearly at the end that no one has commented on yet, when the Doctor said something like, "I took her to rob a bank - let's see if a first date can compete with that!". It suggests to me that he is jealous of Danny, and arranged the whole thing to make him seem dull in Clara's eyes. In which case, I feel it's a bit creepy, and romance is being pushed back in again. What did the rest of you make of it?

And on the whole I agree with Wood.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
There was an odd moment nearly at the end that no one has commented on yet, when the Doctor said something like, "I took her to rob a bank - let's see if a first date can compete with that!". It suggests to me that he is jealous of Danny, and arranged the whole thing to make him seem dull in Clara's eyes. In which case, I feel it's a bit creepy, and romance is being pushed back in again. What did the rest of you make of it?

And on the whole I agree with Wood.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
There was an odd moment nearly at the end that no one has commented on yet, when the Doctor said something like, "I took her to rob a bank - let's see if a first date can compete with that!". It suggests to me that he is jealous of Danny, and arranged the whole thing to make him seem dull in Clara's eyes. In which case, I feel it's a bit creepy, and romance is being pushed back in again. What did the rest of you make of it?

And on the whole I agree with Wood.

---

I don't think it is romance, I think it is jealousy as Dormouse suggests. And perhaps also mixed with paternalism, as when he was in her flat and suggested he was there to check up on her. He is, of course, much older than her and somewhat egotistical so paternalism would fit. In some ways this is a return to the older Doctors, he reminds me of my first Doctor, Jon Pertwee.
I enjoyed this episode, if felt like an old skool scary one of my childhood.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wood:
I'm not going to lie, I thought it was dismal.

It bothers me that every episode this series has been about the Doctor in some way. Rather than about anything else at all.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
As for the whole finding Gallifrey thing, I think it's now well-established that the Doctor goes off and does things on his own without us seeing, even for hundreds of years at a time.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Erik:
I wonder if the time gap between Smith and Capaldi is going to be used later or if it was just a throw away line.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Starbug:
The tank holding the Teller reminded me of the 456 (the monster in Torchwood that wants to take the children). Both tanks were filled with a murky liquid that only revealed part of the monster inside. The difference was that I don't think we ever fully saw the 456. It seemed strange to have such a deliberate reference back to a Torchwood episode that starred Peter Capaldi.

I also liked the reference to Hustle.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hugal:
A good episode. Considering the episode was written by two of the top Dr Who writers I expected a little more, but enjoyed it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
There was an odd moment nearly at the end that no one has commented on yet, when the Doctor said something like, "I took her to rob a bank - let's see if a first date can compete with that!". It suggests to me that he is jealous of Danny, and arranged the whole thing to make him seem dull in Clara's eyes. In which case, I feel it's a bit creepy, and romance is being pushed back in again. What did the rest of you make of it?

And on the whole I agree with Wood.

---

I don't think it is romance, I think it is jealousy as Dormouse suggests. And perhaps also mixed with paternalism, as when he was in her flat and suggested he was there to check up on her. He is, of course, much older than her and somewhat egotistical so paternalism would fit. In some ways this is a return to the older Doctors, he reminds me of my first Doctor, Jon Pertwee.
I enjoyed this episode, if felt like an old skool scary one of my childhood.

---

It reminded me of Pertwee and also of the very few Trougton ones I'd seen.

Jealously is the most likely explanation. Although there was that whole bit with 10 and Sarah Jane about the Doctor never going back to see his campions once they'd left because he couldn't deal with the fact they'd die, it's also possible that he couldn't deal with the fact that they left, put down roots and got on with their lives.

The Doctor always travelled on, sometimes with a new campion. Sometimes not. And without roots or permanent relationships. I wonder if that's what he's jealous of. The fact that Clara could love Danny more than travelling with him and leave.

Of course, I could be over thinking this and it's just a plot device. But you do get the impression that the Doctor really doesn't want Clara to get together with Danny.

Tubbs
 

---

Posted by doubtingthomas (# 14498) on :
 
Going back to the top...apologies for lateness...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
I liked the way the Doctor ran out of breath and had to stop, instead of belting on down the corridor outrunning everyone....

---

Allegedly, Mrs Capaldi asked Moffat not to break her husband...

quote:

---

And unconvinced by the sudden reappearance of Psi and Saibra, claiming that the "atomic shredder" was actually a "teleport"

---

quote:

---

At times the Doctor reminded me also very much of Hartnell and Pertwee.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
More on the Doctor's slightly amended moral code - he was very glad to leave people to die when there seemed to be no alternative (Psi, Saibra and the guy who had his brain sucked out at the start), but also went back to rescue people when it seemed hopeless. Very analytical pragmatism, random impulse or lazy writing? Hard to say. But I don't think he's quite as high-minded as the rhetoric of Tennant and Smith would indicate. (We can also argue about whether their actions stand up to their own principles.)

---

quote:

---

This series is hitting a sweet spot for me. Capaldi's offering a much-needed taste of something different, and I say that as someone who really liked Matt Smith.

---

Snap!

quote:

---

Originally posted by Erik:
Did anyone else notice that in one of the earlier episodes of this series the Doctor introduced himself as being 2000 years old. I think when it was David Tennent it 900-odd and Matt Smith might have said something around 1000-and-something. I wonder if the time gap between Smith and Capaldi is going to be used later or if it was just a throw away line.

---

Pertwee already said "several thousand years"...surely, either the Doctor lies about his age or he has forgotten!

[ 25. September 2014, 22:26: Message edited by: doubtingthomas ]
 

---

Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tubbs:
It reminded me of Pertwee and also of the very few Trougton ones I'd seen.

Jealously is the most likely explanation. Although there was that whole bit with 10 and Sarah Jane about the Doctor never going back to see his campions once they'd left because he couldn't deal with the fact they'd die, it's also possible that he couldn't deal with the fact that they left, put down roots and got on with their lives.

The Doctor always travelled on, sometimes with a new campion. Sometimes not. And without roots or permanent relationships. I wonder if that's what he's jealous of. The fact that Clara could love Danny more than travelling with him and leave.

Of course, I could be over thinking this and it's just a plot device. But you do get the impression that the Doctor really doesn't want Clara to get together with Danny.

Tubbs

---

No, I agree with you. I think this Doctor is actually quite vulnerable under his cool, uncaring appearance. He is putting up a hard shell.
Though as you say, to misquote Eddie the shipboard computer in Hitchhikers, we might just be calculating his personality defects to 10 decimal places

NB I like the idea that he is travelling with a Campion especially with the roots
 

---

Posted by Erik (# 11406) on :
 
I am another who thinks that the Doctor's new detachment to people dying is more about a pragmatic approach of getting on with things rather than lacking emotion. I though his reaction when he found out the augmented-human and mutant-human (sorry, I can't remember their names) were actually alive. He seemed almost giddy of a moment.
 

---

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
HA:

quote:

---

NB I like the idea that he is travelling with a Campion especially with the roots.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Why does jealousy have to be romantic, necessarily? It can just be the product of worrying that you are going to lose your place with someone-- wherever that is.

---

True. In some ways, it hearkens back to the Pertwee Doctor, who was decidedly put out when Jo decided to get married to a brilliant but unconventional scientist. The ending of "The One With The Maggots"* is one of the most poignant of the old series, with the Doctor sneaking out of Jo's engagement party and driving off alone.


*Sorry. Blanking on the real name.
 

---

Posted by The Rogue (# 2275) on :
 
Green Death.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
I like Hedgehog's name better.
 

---

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :
 
Sounds like an upbeat Friends episode.
 

---

Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on :
 
It reminded me in tone and plot more of an episode of Farscape.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Sounds like an upbeat Friends episode.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by JonahMan:
Anyway I quite enjoyed them, though the monsters didn't seem anywhere near as scary as they did when I were a nipper!

---

It's not you, the sofas have gotten smaller.
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
Just watched The Caretaker. Loved it. For one thing, it was HILARIOUS! I haven't laughed out loud that much for quite a while.

And in general they weren't 'cheap' jokes, they were character-driven and character-conflict driven. I loved the way Danny was written.
 

---

Posted by M. (# 3291) on :
 
I found it the most disappointing one of this series so far - too much people-stuff and not enough monster plot.

The ending was intriguing, though.

M.
 

---

Posted by St Everild (# 3626) on :
 
Loved this!
I didn't think there is romance between the Doctor and Clara, more that the Doctor needs Clara to reflect his sense of superiority and a potential "Clara and Danny" situation will overturn this.
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
Not a great episode. Too much relationship-type stuff, and unconvincing stuff at that, taking the place of plot. Wince-making rather than amusing. Capaldi is a good actor, but he is being wasted on indifferent to poor scripts.
 

---

Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :
 
I tend to agree. And I started to go dizzy watching Clara's overlong scenes of school-date-Tardis-taxi-school-back to Tardis silliness. I liked Clara originally but I am rapidly going off the bickering and the snappy one-liners between her and the Doctor.

The most interesting scene was the final one in 'heaven' with Chris Addison, the CSO and Missy.
 

---

Posted by JonahMan (# 12126) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pine Marten:
I tend to agree. And I started to go dizzy watching Clara's overlong scenes of school-date-Tardis-taxi-school-back to Tardis silliness. I liked Clara originally but I am rapidly going off the bickering and the snappy one-liners between her and the Doctor.

The most interesting scene was the final one in 'heaven' with Chris Addison, the CSO and Missy.

---

Yeah, this episode was weak. The monster, in spite of allegedly having the firepower to blow up the entire planet, was dealt with in a rather perfunctory manner, almost as a side issue to the relationship stuff.

On the other hand, the heaven scene was most confusing. As one who hasn't seen any recent episodes except the last three, am I supposed to know who any of the people in it are. (The woman/God was, I think, in Green Wing as the nutty HR bod, at least she reminded me of her from the brief glance.
 

---

Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :
 
Hi, everybody! I have not posted on this thread before...

I just finished watching what may have been a current episode about a homicidal robot killing a police constable and terrorizing a school: I think the episode was called Pink.

It was broadcast on the execrable "BBC America". The money-grubbing rat bastards who run the channel kept sticking adverts into what must have been a 29-minute programme in real life. I did not enjoy them inserting 21 minutes of adverts at the rate of 5 or 7 every four or five minutes. I watched the Jaguar ad by choice as it at least had a British voice-over. Thank God, I recorded it yesterday as it required a Herculean amount of manual dexterity in my right index finger to keep the rubbish ads at bay.

Dunno about this; perhaps I shan't watch it again until I can order DVDs from the real BBC. I miss the old Doctors we used to get on the Public Broadcasting System back in the 90s: they were a whole hour with no breaks.

I really am a fanatic. I have been to the Doctor Who Museum when it was at Land's End in 2007 but it is just a bit too taxing for someone my age to relax and enjoy it in this horrible format!


 

---

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
That was funny. Not brilliant like the Clara-under-the-bed one, but a lot of fun, and showing something of the importance of relationship - Clara and Danny vs Clara and The Doctor.

Also, the theme of The Doctor vs soldiers was heavily played out.

The heaven scene was again interesting - some more insight into heaven.
 

---

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
I think it was better than I enjoyed it. That kind of comedy resulting from the Doctor being inappropriately rude isn't really my thing, but the episode was clearly up to interesting things with it. And the scene with Danny and the Doctor arguing in the TARDIS was tremendous.
 

---

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
I do think though that it's obviously still a new Doctor's first series, in that the writers haven't seen much of Capaldi playing the role. So they're all a bit still writing scripts that would work for Matt Smith and then Capaldi's playing them in the way that works for him, and occasionally there's a bit of a mismatch. But that's probably inevitable.
 

---

Posted by Yonatan (# 11091) on :
 
Capaldi's Doctor seems to be a sort of Gregory House with a TARDIS. You have the same unlikable, misanthropic, almost sociopathic exterior, and the question as to how much of what he does is due to compassion, and how much is due to a love of mystery, adventure or a need to prove himself right. Instead of "Everybody lies", you have "Humans are stupid and frustrating."
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
And "never lose your temper in the middle of a door sign".
 

---

Posted by doubtingthomas (# 14498) on :
 
I quite enjoyed this one (maybe because my expectations were low...). Although the monster did not really seem as bad as it was made out to be, it was at least visually more convincing than some of the CG creations we've had. But the episode was more about the interpersonal stuff, which I think by the standards of recent Who was surprisingly well done.

On the jealousy side this made me think of the jealousy a parent feels for their child's (first) boy/girlfriend: he knowns he's going to lose her, but at least he has to be sure he loses her to the "right" person. The Third Doctor's reaction to Jo's marriage can probably be read in the same way - quite different from the First, who, in a similar situation, throws out Susan out of the Tardis so she can go and get her own life. Then again, he does not seem to do so gladly either, and maybe he been trying to fill the void ever since ("Dad skills"...?!). Which also makes me wonder what happened to Susan's parents...

Also, we are back to the soldier thing. On the one hand, the Doctor refuses to take Danny seriously because of his history (as Clara points out - he is not now a soldier!) and denies vehemently any suggestion that he might be "officer class", on the other hand, he rather successfully impersonates a general to the Skovox thingy...hmmm...this ain't over yet...

Incidentally, there was a clip of next week's episode on the Graham Norton Show on Friday, which should still be on iplayer. Looks proper scary!
 

---

Posted by doubtingthomas (# 14498) on :
 
PS, I also liked the subplot with Courtney
 

---

Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
So that's what happened to Sergeant Bash from Robot Wars...

Was anyone else getting worried the Pride & Prejudice ref might be significant? The Doctor as Darcy, socially awkward and pre-judging others; Adrian the nerdy English teacher as Mr Collins; Clara as Lizzie - intelligent and sparky; which would make Danny the charming soldier Wickham - bad boyfriend material,

Fortunately this didn't seem borne out by the episode. I think we have established that this Doctor's relationship is much more paternal.
 

---

Posted by Rosa Winkel (# 11424) on :
 
Indeed. I'm also getting hints of Susan here.
 

---

Posted by Wood (# 7) on :
 
I hated it, again. I don't mean to. I mean, it's not like I'm watching it trying to hate it. I feel like I felt in 2008.

It's another deja vu episode (we've had one-verb-title scary episode, and now we have a Doctor tries to blend in episode by Roberts called the Somethinger) and it's about the Doctor again.

I hated it. I'm sorry. I must try harder.
 

---

Posted by Wood (# 7) on :
 
Also. The monster was pointless. I mean, I am not against the idea of having a monster that the story isn't about (I liked Hide, after all), but it is a stupid, crappy monster, the equal of any rubbish man-in-a-suit monster from the 70s or 80s.
 

---

Posted by Matt Black (# 2210) on :
 
Perhaps that's inevitable to an extent, given Capaldi's age?
 

---

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :
 
I'd give a lot for a decent man in a rubber suit STOP LAUGHING AT THE BACK THERE YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE YES YOU LADDIE I'LL DEAL WITH YOU LATER! over this touchy-feely relationship stuff. Who gives a stuff?
 

---

Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :
 
I liked it, but whoever did the Matrix effects over the back flip needs a slap.

There were some beautiful touches. At the parent's evening, "But last year you said she was a very disruptive influence, this year you said disruptive ... That's an improvement right?"

Next week's looks properly scary. Unless we've seen all the good bits already. The end was interesting. Obviously setting something up for the last few eps.

Tubbs
 

---

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
Well that has been the first episode this series I've enjoyed all the way through. Frustratingly, it's also the first episode I failed to record so I might have to buy a DVD with lots of the previous rubbish in order to get this one permanently. This was character driven, in a convincing way, although I still think the Doctor's feelings towards Clara are not entirely innocent. Gill's comments about Pride and Prejudice were spot on, I felt, although I was puzzled by the quibble about dates - the book was published in 1813, and it's hard to say when Austen wrote it as so much revision was involved.

OK the monster wasn't great, but I couldn't care less. Who at it's best has never been about the monsters - well, that's my perspective even though I know other Shipmates deeply disagree. And the stuff with Courtney was fantastic; I very much hope we see more of her.
 

---

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wood:
It's another deja vu episode (we've had one-verb-title scary episode, and now we have a Doctor tries to blend in episode by Roberts called the Somethinger) and it's about the Doctor again.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
I'll concede that the charge that this was all about the Doctor is truer of this than it was of, say, Listen.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
This is a program about a time-travelling alien who spends his entire life getting into every kind of trouble imaginable. A complaint that someone's clothing is unrealistic feels like a case of swallowing a camel while straining a gnat.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wood:
By the way, Mr Pink isn't the first Coal Hill maths teacher with Superhuman Ex Squaddie Powers that the Doctor's met.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jane R:
Nice to see that the tradition of Fashion Victims (as documented in Paul Cornell et al.'s 'Discontinuity Guide') is continuing in New Who.

<tangent> just seen how much second-hand copies of the Discontinuity Guide are going for on Amazon - now in a state of shock <\tangent>

---

The ebook is only a fiver. My eldest will be very pleased when he finds this on his Kindle (his Kindle is on my account so I get to read it on mine too).
 

---

Posted by Wood (# 7) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wood:
By the way, Mr Pink isn't the first Coal Hill maths teacher with Superhuman Ex Squaddie Powers that the Doctor's met.

---

Are you referring to the Aztec-incapacitating Vulcan death grip, or is it something else?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Unrealistic. In the stuff Clara wears to teach she'd be causing acute hormonal distress to nearly every boy in her classes, and some of the girls, and get naff all work out of them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
She came across as inexperienced in the first episode of this series, but apart from that, I'm not getting that message at all.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
This is a program about a time-travelling alien who spends his entire life getting into every kind of trouble imaginable. A complaint that someone's clothing is unrealistic feels like a case of swallowing a camel while straining a gnat.

---

Nah. It's the little realisms that make the big unrealistic work.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
And he was explicitly told that he was dead - do we take that literally, or is it based on careful definitions of "dead" or even "you"?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wood:
The whole argument about Austen with the caretaker in front of a class? The fact that she's surprised that the kids have figured out that she's seeing the maths teacher despite the fact she's been all but canoodling with the guy in front of the kids?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
On the Heaven front, there were a couple of curious details. The policeman was the first "victim" who had no involvement with the Doctor, although he was in the same area - is Missy following the Doctor around, or are there a lot more people in Heaven than we realised?

---

It occurred to me afterwards that the policeman's death was still the Doctor's fault, in that the thingummy was only at that location because it had picked up traces of artron energy. So it is not inconsistent with a general theme of "people keep dying around you, because of you".
 

---

Posted by Wood (# 7) on :
 
A good friend who is more of a Whovian than I betrayed his phobia of spiders with a "surely you're not going to let the kids watch this week's episode?" text.

I may be a welter of insecurities and fears, but spiders ain't one of those.
 

---

Posted by Starbug (# 15917) on :
 
I can't bear spiders and Mr Bug is away tonight, so in the interests of sleeping, I'm recording tonight's episode and will watch it tomorrow when he gets back.
 

---

Posted by balaam (# 4543) on :
 
I have just returned from the Canary Islands, and themoon looks just like the Lanzarote lava fields. I never thought I'd be saying "been there" to the moon.
 

---

Posted by Firenze (# 619) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by balaam:
I have just returned from the Canary Islands, and themoon looks just like the Lanzarote lava fields. I never thought I'd be saying "been there" to the moon.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by balaam:
I have just returned from the Canary Islands, and themoon looks just like the Lanzarote lava fields. I never thought I'd be saying "been there" to the moon.

---

According to the Radio Times, there's an obvious reason for that.
 

---

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
Well, that was one of the silliest episodes ever. The moon suddenly puts on weight because it's going to hatch after millions of years - where has that weight come from? Earth suffers for 10 years before sending up a shuttle, and crews it with old incompetents? A new born creature lays an egg exactly the same size, weight and shape as the one it's just watched out of? Really?

Clara got some good lines though: "I'll slap you so hard you'll regenerate".
 

---

Posted by Roseofsharon (# 9657) on :
 
Can there be a high tide everywhere at once? That's silly!
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
What a lot of rubbish that episode was. If they don't have the time or the ability to write a decent one, there's a huge fanbase out there waiting to be tapped.
 

---

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
Rubbish, or genius? The science on this episode was jaw-droppingly dreadful, there's no doubt about that. But there's a very respectable tradition in Doctor Who of allowing the science to be dreadful when there's a better story to be told (and even sometimes when there isn't - Tenth Planet, anyone?). The story was about impossible moral dilemmas, and for once the Doctor wasn't going to be the deus ex machina - the deus got back in his machina and buggered off. The decision got left to Non-Special Schoolgirl, Cynical Old Space Hack, and Miss Average.

I think - I'm not sure, but I think I might be tending more towards "genius" than "rubbish".
 

---

Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 
(Oh, and for the record - the moments following "I think I've found your alien!" had this old arachnophobe lifting his feet off the floor in case anything crawled out from under the sofa. Last time I had that sort of reaction to Doctor Who was in about 1971!)
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
I was put off right at the start by Clara throwing a strop because Courtney had been told she wasn't special(!). Then there was that bit about the Moon being a giant egg, and everybody on Earth having to vote with their lights. Then Clara threw another strop and stormed off. Frankly the Doctor was well rid of her. And Courtney. Sorry, I still think this was a rubbish episode.
 

---

Posted by Athrawes (# 9594) on :
 
I think I'm with Adeodatus on this one, although I wouldn't go as far as genius. The story was all about Clara feeling responsible. She was responsible, in a way, for Courtney meeting the Doctor, and going off the rails as a result - I know kids like Courtney, and her reaction to being told she's not special rings true. As does Clara's anger when she's forced to make an impossible decision and live with the consequences, when she's spent her time with the Doctor letting him be responsible while she enjoys the ride.

The 'Duty of Care' line was the key to the episode, to me: Clara's duty of care to Courtney and the creature, space-lady's duty of care to her earth, and the Doctor's duty of care to allow for humanity's growing up. Clara's anger is a realistic reaction to being responsible for too much and nearly getting it wrong.

I'm not saying this well, sorry, but I think there was real depth in the character interactions, so I can ignore the sillier aspects of the plot.
 

---

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
Something else that annoyed me, although it shouldn't, was the agonising over the life of one creature against the lives on an entire planet. But this is a failing of Who as a whole - normally the series is quite happy to kill all sorts of aliens to save a single human, except when it isn't and wants to have a plot of faux moral anguish.
 

---

Posted by Athrawes (# 9594) on :
 
Thinking a bit more about this, Clara often feels responsible for the Doctor (being his carer, and his conscience for instance) and suddenly he makes her responsible for choosing between the life of a possibly unique creature and the whole planet. And then she finds out that her decision was not just about that, but the entire future of humanity. No wonder she was furious with him for dumping all that on her.

Courtney was annoying and irritating ( although not as bad as she could have been). I don't really want to have too much more of her.
 

---

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :
 
Loved it, love them all. Not perfect, gaps, some duff ideas and lines but the ambition, acting and depth can be breath taking. Bit clunky sometimes but hey.

Last night, real behind the sofa moments (haven't had that for ages) real exploration of what it is to be mature/adult with the doctor, Clara and the kid all at different stages all showing maturity and immaturity.

Some great lines. I like the way the soldier/teacher thing is going too, real wisdom there.

Capaldi is a freaking genius. It is SO refreshing to have a Doctor who is seemingly unpredictable, odd and FUNNY.

I think more about these episodes that ever before, they are asking bigger question. Proper fairy stories.
 

---

Posted by tessaB (# 8533) on :
 
I'm with Pyx_e on this one. The scope of the stories is huge and for me that is one of the best things about science fiction, that one can actually tell a story that illustrates a philosophical point without it being ridiculous. Okay you may say that the science is ridiculous but the story itself hung together in a way that the most stories about 'the greater good' don't.
I admit to feeling disappointed with my fellow humans as the world went dark
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
That was... really, REALLY odd.

More than anything, parts of it just felt tonally off. And I don't think it's the dodgy science that's bothering me, I think it's the sheer casualness of some of it.

You know what I think modern Who's biggest problem is? Vast, grand ideas are all very well, but you've got to give them time to develop, and too often Who tries to shove them into a period of 45 minutes in ways that don't work.

So here, I think there's the potential for an amazing story about how the Earth has lost interest in space, and how a crisis develops that means they have to go back out in space. I think there's a great scare story in here. I think there's a powerful moral dilemma. I think, as a fan of Spooks, there's an absolutely brilliant choice of guest star to create a character who will do whatever it takes (as well as some bloody good acting from Capaldi).

I just don't think there's enough screen time to do all those things justice. Too often I felt like I was being told I ought to be emotionally invested in something because a piece of dialogue has been delivered. Box ticked, and we need to move on. I've been told how there's some drama happening on Earth, so therefore I care about it now, right? Well, no, actually, I found myself caring far more about the fate of the handful of characters I could see on screen, not some abstract information about an entire planet of people whose only contribution was to reduce their electricity bills.

Too many episodes do this nowadays. Too many episodes haven't, ironically enough, made the difficult choices - about what kind of story can be properly told and how many ideas can be truly explored.

And it's even more exasperating in a case like this when I can see how great the ideas were. Certain bits of this were fantastic. The whole idea of an abandoned base under attack - classic Who right there. Those creatures were great, and a huge thumbs up to the sound team for the shrieks and skittering sounds. The whole idea of the Doctor standing aside was a great one. And the way Clara confronted the Doctor towards the end was another superb idea - it's about time we had a companion fall out with him in this way, and now is exactly the right time to do it, as we've already had the idea, from a couple of episodes this season, that Clara finds it difficult to handle the regenerated Doctor.

But for me there wasn't enough weaving those great ideas together into a single, satisfying whole.

[ 05. October 2014, 14:05: Message edited by: orfeo ]
 

---

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
Well I watched this today, having seen some interesting tweets about it.

The science was ridiculous. I mean more ridiculous than usual. The moon would not put on that weight just before hatching (where would it get the material from, as Alice Roberts commented on twitter). If it changed to that degree, the effects would be utterly devastating, and irreversible. There would not be a happy earth to return to.

And yes, a newborn creature laying an egg that matched the size and position of the old moon was a stupid solution to the problem.

The character development, OTOH, was better. The Doctor having a strop. The relationships between the Doctor and Clara. The questions of responsibility - Duty of Care was crucial. Everyone has a duty of care to others - and when they fail to live up to it, as the Doctor did to Clara, the relationship is damaged, as shown by Claras strop.
 

---

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Rubbish, or genius? The science on this episode was jaw-droppingly dreadful, there's no doubt about that. But there's a very respectable tradition in Doctor Who of allowing the science to be dreadful when there's a better story to be told.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Boogie:


The moon's an egg - who knew?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Earth suffers for 10 years before sending up a shuttle, and crews it with old incompetents?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Athrawes:
I think there was real depth in the character interactions, so I can ignore the sillier aspects of the plot.

---

Yes, it's a shame it was explored with the help of such a silly scenario. What a waste of good actors...
At least last week, the monster stayed far enough in the background for it to be shrugged off with a sigh.
(BTW, I think last time someone noted something along the lines of a man-in-rubber-suit monster fitting Capaldi's generation of Doctor Who fans - well this week in the Extra, he referred to his first hand-to-hand fight with a rubber dummy as a "rite of passage" )
 

---

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
Another quibble, with gravity the "moon" didn't look like the moon. They should have stuck to a quarry in Wales - for all Moffatt's comments on Extra I think he was spending money gratuitously just to show he can.
 

---

Posted by Wood (# 7) on :
 
If I cared about terrible science, I wouldn't be watching Doctor Who, frankly, of any era (guys, Genesis of the Daleks may be some of the greatest TV the BBC ever made, for example, but let's not talk about the science).

But I had real problems with how the Doctor was written. He was a jerk. A colossal jerk, and his clearing off wasn't presented in a way that even made it look like he was doing. Flawed heroes are all very well, but that's not flawed, that's... I don't even know what that is. The writing of the character was so bad you couldn't even tell, other than Clara's reaction was the one any reasonable person would. But that begs the question, why are we even watching him?
 

---

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :
 
Dear Wright Bros,

Please stop with the flying machines, it goes against science. I don't understand what you are doing and it scares me. Maybe you should take up fictional writing to alleviate your craving for mad ideas, some form of fiction about science.

yours in a tizzy,

Mr Unimaginative.
 

---

Posted by Wood (# 7) on :
 
(I actually thought the idea of the moon hatching like an egg was a really boss idea)
 

---

Posted by Pyx_e (# 57) on :
 
Dear Messiah figure,

Please stop doing weird shit. It is important for my mental and emotional health that you act within limits that I expect from you. Of course those limits will become more limiting over time as my insanity increase but hey.

I sort of understand that I can't truly understand. But of course I don't' understand WHY you have to be so mean/ not fulfil MY expectations/ be too clever for my feeble imagination to encompass and hence enjoy (and feel smug about).

Yours in a tizzy,

Mrs. Syrophoenician.
 

---

Posted by Robin (# 71) on :
 
I wonder if Moffat wanted to explore what might happen if you introduced mundane technology into Lovecraft's Dreamlands. The turning off (or not) of the lights represents the ambivalence of the waking world about communicating with the dreamlands. And the hatching moon at the end is the perfect climax.

Robin
 

---

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
Boogie:

quote:

---

The science never really matters in science fiction.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Dear Messiah figure,

Please stop doing weird shit. It is important for my mental and emotional health that you act within limits that I expect from you. Of course those limits will become more limiting over time as my insanity increase but hey.

I sort of understand that I can't truly understand. But of course I don't' understand WHY you have to be so mean/ not fulfil MY expectations/ be too clever for my feeble imagination to encompass and hence enjoy (and feel smug about).

Yours in a tizzy,

Mrs. Syrophoenician.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robin:
I wonder if Moffat wanted to explore what might happen if you introduced mundane technology into Lovecraft's Dreamlands. The turning off (or not) of the lights represents the ambivalence of the waking world about communicating with the dreamlands. And the hatching moon at the end is the perfect climax.

Robin

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
There hasn't been a decent bloody episode with Capaldi, frankly.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
There hasn't been a decent bloody episode with Capaldi, frankly.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
There hasn't been a decent bloody episode with Capaldi, frankly.

---

It's a waste of a good actor.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Loved it, love them all. Not perfect, gaps, some duff ideas and lines but the ambition, acting and depth can be breath taking. Bit clunky sometimes but hey.

Last night, real behind the sofa moments (haven't had that for ages) real exploration of what it is to be mature/adult with the doctor, Clara and the kid all at different stages all showing maturity and immaturity.

Some great lines. I like the way the soldier/teacher thing is going too, real wisdom there.

Capaldi is a freaking genius. It is SO refreshing to have a Doctor who is seemingly unpredictable, odd and FUNNY.

I think more about these episodes that ever before, they are asking bigger question. Proper fairy stories.

---

This was pretty much what the Who fans in the office were muttering around the coffee machine this morning.

The bit at the end with the Doctor and Clara was extremely good. The Doctor knew the outcomes, but he gave the three of them the chance to shape their own people's history.

Clara has always treated travelling with the doctor as a bit of a game - pop off on an adventure and still be back in time for tea or your date with Danny. Was the Doctor trying to make her think more about the wider ramifications?! Time travel will change history, it will change you. (We still don't know if Dalek Oswald will happen or not). I also wondered if she'd reacted differently if 11 had done that, and whether part of the reaction is because 12 isn't the Doctor she signed up for.

Tubbs
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
In acting terms, I think Capaldi and Coleman are both hitting it out of the park (if I may borrow an American phrase). Even in the episodes I haven't liked as much.
 

---

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
Totally agree that Capaldi and Coleman are turning in great performances, but that the scripts have been rubbish. However, I did enjoy last week's - the one set in Colehill School - whatever its name was.

By chance I was watching The Web Planet yesterday, where Ian Chesterton was wearing a Colehill Old Boys' tie. That indicates he was educated there, taught there, and is now head there - put like that his life sounds a bit limited. Did he ever go anywhere?
 

---

Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Totally agree that Capaldi and Coleman are turning in great performances, but that the scripts have been rubbish. However, I did enjoy last week's - the one set in Colehill School - whatever its name was.

By chance I was watching The Web Planet yesterday, where Ian Chesterton was wearing a Colehill Old Boys' tie. That indicates he was educated there, taught there, and is now head there - put like that his life sounds a bit limited. Did he ever go anywhere?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jane R:
Boogie:

quote:

---

The science never really matters in science fiction.

---

That's not quite true. No, it doesn't matter (except to the real pedants) that spaceships shouldn't make any noise, or that lighting up the inside of someone's helmet (so you can see the actor's expression of horror as the planet explodes, or whatever) would render them incapable of seeing anything outside it IRL. But the story must follow some logic of its own.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jane R:
Boogie:

quote:

---

The science never really matters in science fiction.

---

That's not quite true. No, it doesn't matter (except to the real pedants) that spaceships shouldn't make any noise, or that lighting up the inside of someone's helmet (so you can see the actor's expression of horror as the planet explodes, or whatever) would render them incapable of seeing anything outside it IRL. But the story must follow some logic of its own.

---

Precisely. The stuff I write (see my sig for details) has science that is explained and has a logic, even though it is, of course, not practical. For me, that is important - I don't like it when writers simply skirt around HOW things work, because then it is just magic.

---

Fair enough.

I should have said it doesn't matter to me - not one bit
 

---

Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
Some fantasy writers have actually sat down and thought about how to make their worlds logically consistent too - rather than falling back on 'it works because it's magic'. Ursula Le Guin's Earthsea books have magic that follows the law of conservation of energy, for example; so in that world you wouldn't be able to double the mass of an object the size of the Moon without taking the extra mass from somewhere else... even though it's done by magic.
 

---

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
My friend (astrobiologist), watching with me, stared at the scene as they watched the egg hatch and burst out "they're on a beach!" in disbelief. And it was a nice placid beach that had seen no particular disruption, the result of ages of stable sea-level.

That was the only time we got pedantic. If there's supposed to have been catastrophe, there should have been some signs of it!
 

---

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
Justinian:

quote:

---

it's certainly the best season IMO since Smith's first

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Justinian:

quote:

---

it's certainly the best season IMO since Smith's first

---

Well nothing in Smith's era was a particular highpoint. Certainly not his first, where we had Amy trying to rape the Doctor and that silly crack in the wall.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wood:
The Eleventh Hour is the highpoint of the entire Smith era. And one of the high points of the post-2005 revival. It could only go downhill from there.

---

quote:

---

I was actually thinking that the current series wasd the worst since the fourth series, although the seventh, which started OK, had a terrible drop of quality really quickly.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
(The sixth to me is a series of misses that should have been hits, with the only gem being written by Neil Gaiman).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
It's certainly better than the Seventh series! (The sixth to me is a series of misses that should have been hits, with the only gem being written by Neil Gaiman).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hedgehog:
It's a viewpoint.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
It's certainly better than the Seventh series! (The sixth to me is a series of misses that should have been hits, with the only gem being written by Neil Gaiman).

---

I would add The Girl Who Waited, which is maybe a couple of notes off perfect, and The God Complex whose only flaw (other than the fact that I don't see eye to eye with the author about faith, which is not really a flaw) is that it tries to invoke the ending of an even better story and doesn't pull it off.

The peaks in Season Seven (Asylum, Angels, Hide, Name) are perhaps lower than any other modern series. But I think the troughs are higher. Ok - I fail to even understand why people hate The Rings of Akhaten and Journey to the Centre of the TARDIS. As far as I'm concerned the only real failure is Power of Three. And I can think of worse episodes from any earlier series of modern Doctor Who. (Boom Town, Tooth and Claw, Lazarus Effect, Planet of the Ood, Victory of the Daleks, Curse of the Black Spot).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wood:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
(The sixth to me is a series of misses that should have been hits, with the only gem being written by Neil Gaiman).

---

Not gonna lie, I hated both of Neil Gaiman's episodes. But then Neil Gaiman generally rubs me up the wrong way in precisely the way Douglas Adams did, that whole posh boy comfy comedy-drama thing.

It's a style thing. I mean, a short story collection by Neil Gaiman is one of very few books I've chucked across the room.

With you on Pandorica Opens/Big Bang, though.

---

My problem with Gaiman is that I've read The Sandman. It was awesome. But almost everything I've read of his since seems to be an echo. I liked The Doctor's Wife - but Nightmare in Silver was deeply unimpressive.
 

---

Posted by tessaB (# 8533) on :
 
Not sure I really understand the problem with the moon bug laying an egg.
I'm sort of assuming that most of the weight of the moon by then was the whatever it was that hatched . Now correct me if I'm wrong but the whole problem with that was that it was too heavy. The new moon, laid by the wiwth on the other hand was lighter, that is the weight that the original moon had been. so if the wiwth had been curled up inside the moon, gaining weight by, oh I don't know, sucking in passing cosmic dust, then it could easily have laid an agg that weighed less than it did, but the same as the original egg. Therefore problem solved.
There see, I should have been writing a sermon and you pedants made me spend time working this out!
 

---

Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :
 
Are you suggesting that you can't work that into the sermon?
 

---

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I'm getting a bit fed up with all the corseted women in black with high heels and closely coiffed hair. Thoroughly confusing, and suspect. And the initial K. There are far too many of them by comparison with real life.
 

---

Posted by Wood (# 7) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
Going back to the moon changing mass, there is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with that for Dr. Who. Even the moon being a big egg would have been a perfectly acceptable premise. Both are massively counterfactual and against existing Whoniverse lore - but so is the premise to about half of Dr Who plots. What was difficult to swallow was the combination of the two. Either, yes. Both? Wtf. (If the moon had been changing mass because things were coming through from E-space or whatever that would have made enough sense to not cause trouble).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wood:
Straw poll (cos I wasn't here when this happened): how did people feel about the TARDIS towing Earth home at the end of Journey's End?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wood:
Straw poll (cos I wasn't here when this happened): how did people feel about the TARDIS towing Earth home at the end of Journey's End?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wood:
Straw poll (cos I wasn't here when this happened): how did people feel about the TARDIS towing Earth home at the end of Journey's End?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by doubtingthomas:
(...and did I spot a Hartnell mannerism in the corridor outside CLara's cabin?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stumbling Pilgrim:

quote:

---

Originally posted by doubtingthomas:
(...and did I spot a Hartnell mannerism in the corridor outside CLara's cabin?

---

To go with the jelly babies, bubble wrap and 'are you my mummy?', no doubt! (and probably a load more I missed)

Enjoyed Frank Skinner, I was quite sorry when he turned down a job on the Tardis!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wood:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
Going back to the moon changing mass, there is absolutely nothing inherently wrong with that for Dr. Who. Even the moon being a big egg would have been a perfectly acceptable premise. Both are massively counterfactual and against existing Whoniverse lore - but so is the premise to about half of Dr Who plots. What was difficult to swallow was the combination of the two. Either, yes. Both? Wtf. (If the moon had been changing mass because things were coming through from E-space or whatever that would have made enough sense to not cause trouble).

---

Straw poll (cos I wasn't here when this happened): how did people feel about the TARDIS towing Earth home at the end of Journey's End?

Towing. Earth.

I still have to type it twice to believe I saw it. I mean, Who has been stupid scientifically from the beginning (Dalek Invasion of Earth, 1964: Daleks intend to hollow out Earth and use it as a spaceship, for... no actual reason). But some things... some things go so far outside the rules the world has set for itself that you can't credit them.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
Hmm. At the end of his review, Philip Sandifer points out a recurring theme of 'broken soldiers/machinery'.

When you think about it, it's definitely throughout the season. I can think of 5 episodes immediately that fit into that category. The only ones that don't explain themselves in those terms straight away (for me) are 'Hide' and 'Kill the Moon', but then I realised there was plenty of soldier talk in 'Hide'.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
Hmm. At the end of his review, Philip Sandifer points out a recurring theme of 'broken soldiers/machinery'.

When you think about it, it's definitely throughout the season. I can think of 5 episodes immediately that fit into that category. The only ones that don't explain themselves in those terms straight away (for me) are 'Hide' and 'Kill the Moon', but then I realised there was plenty of soldier talk in 'Hide'.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wood:
First Series Eight episode I've unequivocally loved.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wood:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
Hmm. At the end of his review, Philip Sandifer points out a recurring theme of 'broken soldiers/machinery'.

When you think about it, it's definitely throughout the season. I can think of 5 episodes immediately that fit into that category. The only ones that don't explain themselves in those terms straight away (for me) are 'Hide' and 'Kill the Moon', but then I realised there was plenty of soldier talk in 'Hide'.

---

Listen, you mean?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
Just read that review - what is the reference the bubble wrap is making?

---

Ark in Space
 

---

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by balaam:
Back to last night, does anyone else think there was more than a little HAL 9000 about GUS?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wood:
See, Listen was pretty good, but it's basic thematic underpinning, that there's a scary thing but actually there isn't anything to be scared of, was done with Hide, and done slightly better. If that basic twist hadn't been done last year in an episode with a similar title, Listen would be higher in my reckoning.

But Listen is second best in my book.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wood:
See, Listen was pretty good, but it's basic thematic underpinning, that there's a scary thing but actually there isn't anything to be scared of, was done with Hide, and done slightly better. If that basic twist hadn't been done last year in an episode with a similar title, Listen would be higher in my reckoning.

But Listen is second best in my book.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
Listen, on the other hand, may just have been a first for Dr Who. One where there was no monster at all. And it was incredibly creepy because of that.

---

It's arguable that 'Midnight' is similar, as much of the action is driven by fearful humans rather than anything alien. The monster is us...

But it's still not quite the same.

Just felt like mentioning 'Midnight', because THAT for me is one of the scariest, creepiest episodes of the series. avid Tennant's Doctor, who tends to march into situations and take them over with a bit of a confident swagger, can't get people to cooperate and then becomes the victim. The look on his face as he's reduced to echoing another's words is truly terrified.
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
"Midnight" was incredible. An acting tour-de-force, and one of those creepy " human nature is the enemy" plots straight out of an old Rod Serling script.
 

---

Posted by Wood (# 7) on :
 
We're gonna have to agree to disagree about Listen and Hide but I'm with you a hundred percent with Midnight. For my money, Davies's best episode.
 

---

Posted by Justinian (# 5357) on :
 
Midnight I found ... intense. It was a spectacular episode with incredible acting and amazing writing.

At the same time it demonstrated why it was time for RTD to leave. It, Turn Left, and Torchwood: Miracle Day. And Donna's finale. But most of all Midnight. Once you start actively deconstructing the series you're playing with you run the run the risk of taking away all the magic and being left with ... the deconstructed ruins.

Midnight had the potential to be to Dr Who what Watchmen is to Superhero comics. Superb, genre defining, and something that caused massive long term problems by people trying to recapture. And I am very glad that RTD knew that it was time to hand over. (And I'm equally glad that after a poor S6 and a S7 I don't yet own on DVD Dr Who is coming back to form).
 

---

Posted by Kelly Alves (# 2522) on :
 
(tangent continued) Keep your freaking Daleks, Lesley Sharp was the scariest monster of them all.
 

---

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wood:
We're gonna have to agree to disagree about Listen and Hide but I'm with you a hundred percent with Midnight. For my money, Davies's best episode.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wood:
Hey Dafyd, did you read my essay in the SCM mag about how problematic Gridlock was in religious terms?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wood:
See, Listen was pretty good, but it's basic thematic underpinning, that there's a scary thing but actually there isn't anything to be scared of, was done with Hide, and done slightly better. If that basic twist hadn't been done last year in an episode with a similar title, Listen would be higher in my reckoning.

But Listen is second best in my book.

---

I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one I'm afraid. Hide was close to a basic "Silurian Plot" - that of the other failing to communicate and this leading to fear and disaster.

Listen, on the other hand, may just have been a first for Dr Who. One where there was no monster at all. And it was incredibly creepy because of that.

Actually, that's not quite true about Listen - but I haven't spotted anyone else pick this up. The Monster on the Bed? Just for a second I saw a flash of a Silent/Confessor reflected in the window. Which means that we have an entire new story laden with pathos captured in just that scene. A poor orphan who literally could not be remembered by anyone at the orphanage unless it was hiding under the blanket or otherwise couldn't be seen. Adults who have seen the moon landing will try to kill the poor child. And, worse yet, even when the kid thinks they have found a way to communicate, even Rupert/Danny won't remember.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
That the Dr never once related the dream to that episode was peculiar.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
There really isn't much time for this season to turn around and become Decent, rather than Poor.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:
Once you start actively deconstructing the series you're playing with you run the run the risk of taking away all the magic and being left with ... the deconstructed ruins.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
That said, I'd worry about anyone who said Midnight was their favourite Doctor Who story - because really it's a claim that the ethical basis behind Doctor Who doesn't work in the real world.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
When you say "general reaction to the season is pretty positive", what do you mean?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
Okay, I find both of these remarks about 'Midnight' rather fascinating, and also slightly odd.

Because to me, 'Midnight' is primarily about puncturing The Doctor's god-like status. And I would have thought that the Capaldi era has slowly been doing the same puncturing, albeit in a slightly different way.

As well as Clara's increasing challenge of the Doctor, which has reached a peak in the last couple of episodes, there's been a variety of other characters asking "why do you get to be in charge?".

It's one of the things that's making the current run more interesting.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
Because to me, 'Midnight' is primarily about puncturing The Doctor's god-like status. And I would have thought that the Capaldi era has slowly been doing the same puncturing, albeit in a slightly different way.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
Because to me, 'Midnight' is primarily about puncturing The Doctor's god-like status. And I would have thought that the Capaldi era has slowly been doing the same puncturing, albeit in a slightly different way.

---

In Midnight, the Doctor starts off by telling a group of frightened people that the way to react to something unknown is never to throw the outsider off the bus. That's a fundamental part of the Doctor's ethics. It turns out that the solution to the week's problem is to throw the outsider off the bus.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Justinian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
Okay, I find both of these remarks about 'Midnight' rather fascinating, and also slightly odd.

Because to me, 'Midnight' is primarily about puncturing The Doctor's god-like status. And I would have thought that the Capaldi era has slowly been doing the same puncturing, albeit in a slightly different way.

As well as Clara's increasing challenge of the Doctor, which has reached a peak in the last couple of episodes, there's been a variety of other characters asking "why do you get to be in charge?".

It's one of the things that's making the current run more interesting.

---

To me Midnight singularly failed at that, and was worse at that job than seasons 5, 6, or 8 have been. Midnight wasn't asking "Why does the Doctor get to be in charge?" or "What makes the Doctor? And how is this inherently a problem?" What it was asking was "What happens when you take away The Doctor's ability to be The Doctor and make them a normal person?" This is an entirely different question - interesting in its own right. But 11 and 12 have never had the obnoxious Messiah issues 10 did.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

It's fascinating watching the very first story of William Hartnell these days. You know who the first person to get in trouble on Doctor Who is? The first person who needs rescuing by others? The Doctor. He gets bopped over the head by a caveman.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
That only makes sense to me if you see being authoritative as an essential part of "The Doctor's ability to be The Doctor".

It's fascinating watching the very first story of William Hartnell these days. You know who the first person to get in trouble on Doctor Who is? The first person who needs rescuing by others? The Doctor. He gets bopped over the head by a caveman.

The Doctor being powerless is only a radical move because of what later stories turned him into.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

It's fascinating watching the very first story of William Hartnell these days. You know who the first person to get in trouble on Doctor Who is? The first person who needs rescuing by others? The Doctor. He gets bopped over the head by a caveman.

---

I really need to catch up with Old Who, because I think I would like that version of the Doctor. The whole ubermensch thing is not only overdone but IMO we actively need an antidote to it in this current age. Too much cultural poisoning still exists from bad use of ubermensch narratives.

SO maybe "midnight" wasn't the Doctor failing to be the Doctor, but circumstances arising to remind The Doctor what he is not.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
It turns out that the solution to the week's problem is to throw the outsider off the bus.

---

Huh?? That's what the people on the bus want to do. I fail to see how the episode depicts that this is the right solution.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
orfeo, I've often found that opinion on the Ship is far more pro Moffatt's Who than anything I meet elsewhere. When you say "general reaction to the season is pretty positive", what do you mean? In the conversations I have in pubs etc about Who I get stick for not being hard enough on the current season. There are long time fans who are in despair over Capaldi, whereas I like him (but think he hasn't been given any really good scripts yet).

---

It's strange, isn't it? I know of these fans in despair over Capaldi, thinking that he's too nasty and callous, and the Doctor isn't really like that. In fact, that's as much a part of his character as any fluffy characteristic of 10 and 11, because at this point, the Doctor is basically a mythical mass of contradictions. Like a Sci-Fi Rorschach Test, who we think he is probably says more about us than about the character himself, built up over 50 meandering, inconsistent years with layer upon layer of new mythology haphazardly slapped on top of each other.

I liked this episode, which was good, because I'd been caught between a childish excitement about it and the more world-weary assumption that it would be a stinker that was only written because the title sounded cool. I liked it, but it could qualify for higher praise if we get a payoff from some peculiarities, like who or what Gus (GUS?) was - I was reminded of House from The Doctor's Wife - and what was up with Perkins, who I rather like, but also suspect of hiding something. Then there's the handwavy escape, which felt a bit off.

Still, a decent (and scary) story, interwoven with arc and character, Capaldi doing his thing again, and I must admit I had a total squee when he did his Tom Baker impression talking about the mummy. (Also, one of the voices when he was arguing with himself sounded a bit Troughtonish. I must watch again to see if I missed anything else.)
 

---

Posted by Wood (# 7) on :
 
I have to be honest, I hang with lefties and feminists, and in the circles I move in, Moffat's Who is generally loathed (I'm the Moffat apologist usually), so here it's an interestingly different view to what I'm getting elsewhere.
 

---

Posted by Eigon (# 4917) on :
 
One of the things I particularly liked about the Mummy was how many of the extras were black, or Asian or Chinese.
 

---

Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :
 
This lefty feminist is rather fond of Moffat, The Empty Child and Silence in the Library are some of my favourite Whos and I rather like the twists you get in his work. I liked Deep Breath despite some of the hamminess. But I have no problem with RTD either, both writers have their high and low points, as expected in any field.
I'm enjoying Capaldi's Doctor, it's refreshing; he's very multi-layered in his characterisation and I'm a sucker for psychology. I like that I recognise my childhood Doctors in him, not just in obvious references but in his thinking and behaviour. (My ipad just tried to change thinking to thunking! How very Dr Seuss).
My son tells me that Stephen Thompson is the father of one of his school friends. My husband is very excited now as he has a mathematical Doctor Who story storyline in his head and wants to share it with him
 

---

Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
I liked it, but it could qualify for higher praise if we get a payoff from some peculiarities, like who or what Gus (GUS?) was - I was reminded of House from The Doctor's Wife - and what was up with Perkins, who I rather like, but also suspect of hiding something.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wood:
I have to be honest, I hang with lefties and feminists, and in the circles I move in, Moffat's Who is generally loathed (I'm the Moffat apologist usually), so here it's an interestingly different view to what I'm getting elsewhere.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
In fact I was even feeling better towards Frank Skinner, and wondered if I could describe his performance as "understated". Then I saw him gasping for air again and had to go back to "wooden". (He certainly could come back, or he could be another Moffat loose end, left flapping in the wind.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Great Gumby:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
....There are long time fans who are in despair over Capaldi, whereas I like him (but think he hasn't been given any really good scripts yet).

---

It's strange, isn't it? I know of these fans in despair over Capaldi, thinking that he's too nasty and callous, and the Doctor isn't really like that....

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lord Jestocost:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
...another Moffat loose end, left flapping in the wind.)

---

Surely the history of Dr Who is littered with such characters? It's not just a Moffat phenomenon. I'm happy to leave them flapping rather than tie them all up in an uberfannish bundle of continuity. Leave that to the fanfic writers.

---

...or indeed, other Doctor Who writers!

[ 14. October 2014, 23:40: Message edited by: doubtingthomas ]
 

---

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
LJ - completely agree with you about Who-history being littered with such characters. However, it seems to me there have been an awful lot of loose end in the Moffatt era. That, coupled with him boasting about how his is the greatest ever period of Who, helps me get annoyed when I see another portentous thread that does not go anywhere.
 

---

Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wet Kipper:
someone pointed out on Facebook that near the end, Clara's hairclip was on the other side of her head.
was our view of her "mirrored" because the Dr was looking at her through the big glassy bit in the middle of the Tardis console, or was it just a "whoops" ?

---

Yes, I noticed that too. I assumed that, as she was on the left side of the screen both times looking towards the right they edited it like that so that it wouldn't look odd - the Doctor being on the right. Or maybe it's just a 'whoops'...

I've watched it twice now - maybe I'm dumb, but what was the Hartnell mannerism outside Clara's cabin?
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
It turns out that the solution to the week's problem is to throw the outsider off the bus.

---

Huh?? That's what the people on the bus want to do. I fail to see how the episode depicts that this is the right solution.

---

It is what works in the end.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
LJ - completely agree with you about Who-history being littered with such characters. However, it seems to me there have been an awful lot of loose end in the Moffatt era. That, coupled with him boasting about how his is the greatest ever period of Who, helps me get annoyed when I see another portentous thread that does not go anywhere.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pine Marten:
I've watched it twice now - maybe I'm dumb, but what was the Hartnell mannerism outside Clara's cabin?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by doubtingthomas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pine Marten:
I've watched it twice now - maybe I'm dumb, but what was the Hartnell mannerism outside Clara's cabin?

---

It's the little twiddle he does with his fingers while he makes up his mind not to disturb Clara. Hartnell's Doctor did that a lot.

No dumbness detected. A brainstorm/group-squee on Sunday revealed (as expected) that I had missed more of these things than I spotted, and I suspect that is true for many of us...

---

quote:

---

One of the things I particularly liked about the Mummy was how many of the extras were black, or Asian or Chinese.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hedgehog:

quote:

---

Originally posted by doubtingthomas:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pine Marten:
I've watched it twice now - maybe I'm dumb, but what was the Hartnell mannerism outside Clara's cabin?

---

It's the little twiddle he does with his fingers while he makes up his mind not to disturb Clara. Hartnell's Doctor did that a lot.

No dumbness detected. A brainstorm/group-squee on Sunday revealed (as expected) that I had missed more of these things than I spotted, and I suspect that is true for many of us...

---

This highlights one of the most impressive things about Capaldi's performance. In Classic Who, the actors seemed to try very hard to be "different" from what went before. On the other hand, NuWho has avoided that. Honestly, the difference between the character of 10th and 11th is pretty subtle. But Capaldi is the only one who seems intent on incorporating bits of all the previous Doctors into his performance--into making his Doctor an amalgam of all that has come before.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wood:
I have to be honest, I hang with lefties and feminists, and in the circles I move in, Moffat's Who is generally loathed (I'm the Moffat apologist usually), so here it's an interestingly different view to what I'm getting elsewhere.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
Unless you watched some different edition of the episode where the people baying to throw the Doctor out the door succeed. There is a universe of difference between throwing the "outsider" out and correctly identifying an ACTUAL threat and getting rid of it. That is the half the point of the episode.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jane R:

I think it was a mistake to show the mummy straightaway, too. I'd have kept it invisible until after the Doctor had the conversation with the pompous academic. Seeing it in the first death scene made it less scary (IMNSHO).

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
I don't think that's just Capaldi - some of it's clearly written into the script, and this whole series seems to be harking back to previous stories and ideas. If the sequences where he's talking to himself weren't written with this in mind, someone was really missing a trick.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wood:
Having said that, the other thing about this is how my kids feel about the new Doctor.

Betrayed is a good word. I mean, I'm actually warming to him (after several episodes as a complete bastard, he's actually starting to behave like the Doctor again), but the kids? No. They're not convinced at all.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wood:
Watched it again for the inevitable with the kids showing, and, rarely for Who of any era, the resolution holds up better on a second viewing, it being presaged by developments in plot and dialogue. Nothing about the ending has been without a setup. This is easily one of the least wobbly episodes of the current series.

Having said that, the other thing about this is how my kids feel about the new Doctor.

Betrayed is a good word. I mean, I'm actually warming to him (after several episodes as a complete bastard, he's actually starting to behave like the Doctor again), but the kids? No. They're not convinced at all.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
I'm surprised no-one has mentioned that the episode was set in Bristol. Besides being convenient for the main base of Cardiff, Bristol is Bansky's home town. Coincidence?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wood:
Having said that, the other thing about this is how my kids feel about the new Doctor.

Betrayed is a good word. I mean, I'm actually warming to him (after several episodes as a complete bastard, he's actually starting to behave like the Doctor again), but the kids? No. They're not convinced at all.

---

Are your kids familiar with old Who? My 2 boys (aged 10 and 13) have had a regular supply of vintage Who, especially Pertwee and Baker, and maybe this has helped them in their acceptance of Capaldi. They can relate to him as they know the older Doctors were often eccentric, cantankerous and opinionated old codgers.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wood:
Some of the earlier episodes of New Series Eight show a Doctor who hasn't been as close to amoral since early Hartnell.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kelly Alves:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
I'm surprised no-one has mentioned that the episode was set in Bristol. Besides being convenient for the main base of Cardiff, Bristol is Bansky's home town. Coincidence?

---

This is where they set " Being Human" , too, right?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
Tom Baker is cold in Horror of Fang Rock. That said, Baker sets it off by turning his charm on the camera any chance he gets.

---

quote:

---

SARAH: Oh! Sometimes you don't seem ...
DOCTOR: Human?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
This series is brilliant. It's like a parody of previous series. Retro.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wood:
Some of the earlier episodes of New Series Eight show a Doctor who hasn't been as close to amoral since early Hartnell.

---

We shall not speak of Colin Baker.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
Speaking of cold and amoral, Capaldi's portrayal reminds me more of Sylvester McCoy than other respects, although Hartnell does come through pretty clearly too at times. McCoy's Doctor was an enigmatic and sometimes hard to like character. But I do like this current one much more than the other New Doctors.

I'm also liking all his references to classic Who - that's something that the three younger New Doctors never managed to bring off.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:
That small Tardis looked very like the toy one my youngest has, it looked the same size.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
Speaking of cold and amoral, Capaldi's portrayal reminds me more of Sylvester McCoy than other respects, although Hartnell does come through pretty clearly too at times.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
I think Capaldi's Doctor genuinely cares a lot about Clara, but Capaldi plays the Doctor having difficulty showing that he cares by having Capaldi showing it only in glimpses.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pine Marten:
I have one too. The lamp on top lights up and it makes the TARDIS landing noises.....

...and yes, it's about the right size.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
I didn't understand why she suddenly decided to call herself doctor

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
She ought to be utterly exhausted.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
I didn't understand why she suddenly decided to call herself doctor

---

If you're trying to look authoritative, and you've been zooming around time and space with a guy called The Doctor, what's the first bit of authority that's going to pop into your head?

It's got nothing to do with Donna. Just because you're watching a show about The Doctor, doesn't mean there aren't any doctors. People recognise the title precisely because there's a lot more than one of them around.

---

I would expect most people, and especially the community service population, and Fenton, to expect a doctor to be medical. Other titles are available, to an intelligent person.
 

---

Posted by Motylos (# 18216) on :
 
There is a tension growing between Clara and the Doctor: it has been present since Peter Capaldi’s first appearance. Therefore her taking the title ‘Doctor’ to herself is her ‘upping her game’. Danny and Clara are a sort of replay of Mickey and Rose — except whereas Mickey becomes a soldier, Danny was.
I like Capaldi’s strangeness and abruptness — I am a veteran from the original William Hartnell series, and was mesmerised by his duplicity and difficult behaviour. After all, adults are aliens to their children— they think in different terms and have obscure points of reference.
Whereas Smith brought an incredible amount of vulnerability into the Doctor’s character, it is good to have a roughness and toughness back (as with ‘bruiser’ Eccleston).
It is significant it is now on so much later, which is no longer at the time of day when I first watched it, nor at a time when it is likely Infants or Upper Primary School kids would be up.
The ‘lock down’ TARDIS was an interesting concept..
I do wonder if we will ever return to a historical setting without aliens — although the return of the Meddling Monk could be fun!

 

---

Posted by Motylos (# 18216) on :
 
Should be Juniors of Upper Primary School kids…

 

---

Posted by Gill H (# 68) on :
 
I spotted that the graffiti artist would be significant, but I thought he would be able to communicate with them because he understood the two-dimensional world.

Favourite line was probably the circular/edible pi bit.

I think Danny is doomed.
 

---

Posted by Wood (# 7) on :
 
Am I the only one who got excited that Frank Cottrell Boyce has written an episode?
 

---

Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wood:
Am I the only one who got excited that Frank Cottrell Boyce has written an episode?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Motylos:

It is significant it is now on so much later, which is no longer at the time of day when I first watched it, nor at a time when it is likely Infants or Upper Primary School kids would be up.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Wood:
Am I the only one who got excited that Frank Cottrell Boyce has written an episode?

---

I hadn't realised! That is exciting, my youngest will be especially interested. The boys both studied 'Framed' at primary school and the highlight of the term was a trip (which I snuck on to as an assistant) to the National Gallery to see the relevant paintings and have a lecture and signing by Cottrell Boyce.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Count me as another one who is enjoying Clara - but have we seen any signs of her being a control freak?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Count me as another one who is enjoying Clara - but have we seen any signs of her being a control freak?

---

I think it's not the standard meaning of 'control freak', but she does like being in a position to make decisions for other people.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
PS There's a rumour I keep on hearing, which says that Who is short on cash. According to this there was a massive drop in the sale of DVDs when Tennant left, and the programme has been under financial pressure ever since. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Or ideas as to how I could verify it one way or another?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
I have seen trailers for classic series being shown on the Freeview Drama channel from sometime in November.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Motylos:
The ‘lock down’ TARDIS was an interesting concept..

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Motylos:
The ‘lock down’ TARDIS was an interesting concept..

---

...and, visually, virtually identical to The Pandorica.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
I must have missed the Shakespeare, apart from Arden. Maebh (sp?) would be a reference to the fairy queen in other contexts. And the red coat isn't just Little Red Riding Hood, it's Schindler's List and Don't Look Now.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Thanks for the tip-off,Penny. I've checked, and the currently scheduled stories - on successive Sundays - are The Aztecs, Tomb of the Cybermen, Spearhead from Space, Pyramids of Mars and Earthshock. All very watchable, though perhaps Tomb is... umm... let's say 'not unproblematic'.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
On question - why was Missy surprised at the end? No one, not even the Doctor, did anything brilliant. The day was saved by the trees, as they have apparently done countless times before (maybe that's what's niggling me). So what was there to surprise her?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gill H:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Thanks for the tip-off,Penny. I've checked, and the currently scheduled stories - on successive Sundays - are The Aztecs, Tomb of the Cybermen, Spearhead from Space, Pyramids of Mars and Earthshock. All very watchable, though perhaps Tomb is... umm... let's say 'not unproblematic'.

---

Is this the same as the series that was on Watch (I think - can't get it)?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
That was intriguing and different. Not perfect, but pretty good. And very philosophical.

---

quote:

---

This programme has long since been wholly corrupted by left leaning, PC, pro-women, proselytising claptrap.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
Tonight's episode looked great, and I liked it a lot, but something is niggling at me. Not sure what it is until I watch the show again, and then it may evaporate of course.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
That was intriguing and different. Not perfect, but pretty good. And very philosophical.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
On question - why was Missy surprised at the end? No one, not even the Doctor, did anything brilliant. The day was saved by the trees, as they have apparently done countless times before (maybe that's what's niggling me). So what was there to surprise her?

---

If the Doctor can be surprised by trees, why can't Missy be surprised by trees? Unless you think she's God, she doesn't know everything.

Alternatively, she could be surprised that the trees weren't destroyed as a threat.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Roseofsharon:
I thought Maebh did say "Miss Oswald" had sent her to find The Doctor - that was caused him to pay attention to her.
Or I just imagined it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sparrow:
I thought kids calling their teachers "Miss" or "Mr whatever" went out with the Ark!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sparrow:
And one other thing about Maeve ... she was totally unsurprised about the Tardis being bigger on the inside.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
It is, of course, the same in the soaps - nobody in Eastenders watches Eastenders, although they are a clear natural audience for it, and some of them would discuss it. But they can't, of course.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sparrow:
I thought kids calling their teachers "Miss" or "Mr whatever" went out with the Ark!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sparrow:
I'm worried about Peter Capaldi, he seems to have got awfully thin. He looks ill to me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Great Gumby:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sparrow:
I'm worried about Peter Capaldi, he seems to have got awfully thin. He looks ill to me.

---

I didn't notice that, but there were a few times when I thought he seemed to be limping quite obviously.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
That was intriguing and different. Not perfect, but pretty good. And very philosophical.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
On question - why was Missy surprised at the end? No one, not even the Doctor, did anything brilliant. The day was saved by the trees, as they have apparently done countless times before (maybe that's what's niggling me). So what was there to surprise her?

---

If the Doctor can be surprised by trees, why can't Missy be surprised by trees? Unless you think she's God, she doesn't know everything.

Alternatively, she could be surprised that the trees weren't destroyed as a threat.

---

quote:

---

it seemed more like a Sarah Jane Adventure that they'd rewritten for Doctor Who.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
He's looked unwell from the start - sometimes very much older than his real age. Then again in certain lights, you can sometimes see the younger personality that he used to be. Hard to believe he was only born in 1958 - he hasn't aged well. Though for the part of the Doctor, that's not a detriment.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
I fancy a female villain who isn't like that at all - sort of Violet Elizabeth Bott, all curls and pink and frills like Grayson Perry in full performance mode, swinging between eyelash fluttering "I'm only a poor little woman" and screeming and skreeming until she's sick. While hiding a deep and incisive intelligence that really is intelligent.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
How did she get out of the Museum, though? The door was quite an effort to open, and she had clearly been expected to be part of the group. Or did her mother think she should have been at home? Can't remember.

---

quote:

---

That description puts me in mind of Dolores Umbridge, though I'm not sure that's quite what you have in mind.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
One thing that I don't get, is that in one episode (can't remember which one, the second or third) the start of the episode saw the Doctor and Clara tied up on some planet with the Doctor talking of sand piranas. I don't remember that being resolved.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Firenze:
Misanthrope? Why particularly?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
The last of the species or group has been a theme, hasn't it? There was the Teller. And the robots in search of the Promised Land had a touch of it. The mummy was the last of his group, though not species, and the robot in the Caretaker. And Orson.

---

• People are stupid pudding-brains according to the Doctor. Not news, but it's been particularly notable this series.
• There have been a strange number of references to Clara having a wide face. Is this just a Doctor Sheldon tendency, or does it mean something?
• The PE thing with Danny. Running joke, or blatant hint of - what, exactly?
• Not a theme, but the idea that sometimes the wrong people survive feels like it should be foreshadowing something.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
She's Miss Anne Thrope.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Great Gumby:

• The PE thing with Danny. Running joke, or blatant hint of - what, exactly?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Well, I am sorry but I found Dr Who particularly disturbing now. I think it was very inappropriate - certainly those 3 words.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Well, I am sorry but I found Dr Who particularly disturbing now. I think it was very inappropriate - certainly those 3 words.

---

I was genuinely shocked. I thought the episode was great, but I was shocked.
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
Well, that was a corker, but not for anyone impressionable or of a nervous disposition - could easily give them nightmares.

"Doctor Skarosi" was an interesting point - I wouldn't be surprised if some visitors from the planet Skaro turn up in the final episode.

And yikes I was right
 

---

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
Are there really more dead of us than living? I thought I'd seen calculations showing that there weren't.
 

---

Posted by M. (# 3291) on :
 
I thought it was riveting, loved the darkness. I couldn't believe it when it was finished, it went so quickly.

M.
 

---

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
And it's sick. Those three words. And the bit about giving bodies to science.
 

---

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
Are there really more dead of us than living? I thought I'd seen calculations showing that there weren't.

---

I think the proportion is about 5% of the human race are currently alive.
Wikipedia suggests a bit over 100 billion of which 7 billion are now alive.
 

---

Posted by Jay-Emm (# 11411) on :
 
The line that annoyed me in a petty way, was the repeated "no-one has considered..."
followed by statements that pretty much is a standard folk level expression of all religions and none.
 

---

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
OK, I think I saw something based on false premises. However, Missy does not have access to the full number of the dead, only the recently dead, who will be less than the living.
 

---

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I've had a thought about Danny - the boy he killed appeared reflected in the tablet in the final image. Like the boy's face appearing over his shoulder in the dormitory in the children's home. As if the child could go back and haunt his killer when he was the same age. Doesn't fit with the cybermen, though.
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
That was all a bit odd. The lava scene felt like a dramatic climax but it was very early.

I didn't love the 3 words either, but they did warn you, multiple times, that you really weren't going to like them.
 

---

Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
Tell you one thing I did love: the circular windows in the doors. Once I realised what that meant I thought it was very clever.
 

---

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 
This isn't going to be one of those "religion and beliefs in an afterlife are all silly, false, and need to be outgrown" things, is it? One of the things which has... disinclined me to go out of my way to keep up with the show was stuff like this:

quote:

---

"[R]eligion is banned on Platform One. Yes, I'm deeply atheist. If they haven't reached that point by the Year Five Billion, then I give up! When did the Doctor do that speech about believing in things that are invisible? It's Episode 5, isn't it? That's another bit of atheism chucked in. That's what I believe, so that's what you're going to get. Tough, really. To get rid of those so-called agendas, you've got to get rid of me."

---

 

---

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :
 
There were some tasteless parts. Nothing visually tasteless, but verbally. But funny too - the element of dark humour that Chris Addison does so well (I wonder if he might have had some input into the writing).

It seems that they have already accepted the possibility of life after death. I presume that they will try to debunk it, but so far, it is there.
 

---

Posted by Doublethink. (# 1984) on :
 
I don't think the program can truly push atheism, because Dr Who is basically a trickster god engaged in an eternal war with evil - with a deep attachment to humanity.

Regeneration is literally incarnation.

[ 02. November 2014, 10:34: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]
 

---

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
Tell you one thing I did love: the circular windows in the doors. Once I realised what that meant I thought it was very clever.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Playschool

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doublethink.:
I don't think the program can truly push atheism, because Dr Who is basically a trickster god engaged in an eternal war with evil - with a deep attachment to humanity.

Regeneration is literally incarnation.

---

quote:

---

I liked the bit where the Dr said that betrayal wasn't enough to end the way he felt about Clara.

---

1 Cor 11 ; 23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread ..........
 

---

Posted by Pine Marten (# 11068) on :
 
Did anyone else laugh when Dr Chang read the Doctor's psychic paper and said 'why is there all this swearing?'
 

---

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pyx_e:

quote:

---

I liked the bit where the Dr said that betrayal wasn't enough to end the way he felt about Clara.

---

1 Cor 11 ; 23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread ..........

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
Tell you one thing I did love: the circular windows in the doors. Once I realised what that meant I thought it was very clever.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
I wish we hadn't been told it was the Cybermen in advance. Then the windows on the doors would have been a lot more effective.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pyx_e:

quote:

---

I liked the bit where the Dr said that betrayal wasn't enough to end the way he felt about Clara.

---

1 Cor 11 ; 23 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread ..........

---

Exactly

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
I always find Cybermen a bit of a let-down. They seem to spend most of their time just striding around saying "Delete!" or "Upgrade!" which is a bit hard to take seriously.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pine Marten:
Did anyone else laugh when Dr Chang read the Doctor's psychic paper and said 'why is there all this swearing?'

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by balaam:
Doctor Who is not meant to be taken seriously.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rogue:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
I wish we hadn't been told it was the Cybermen in advance. Then the windows on the doors would have been a lot more effective.

---

I agree. Over the new Who series the BBC has put far too many spoilers in its trailers.

---

I am glad I had forgotten about that particular spoiler (despite it being in the Radio Times), although it may have helped subconsciously: I got the hint when the lift-doors closed, with the symbol on either side like eyes. IMHO, This was by far the best introduction the Cyberman have had in a NuWho story!

Also good to know that Missy really is what her name implies...
 

---

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 
Well, perhaps I should give it another chance. After all, Paul Cornell--who is definitely a believing Christian himself--didn't seem to feel like he was hampered writing for it. I just don't want to grit my teeth at the sort of thing which Star Trek: The Next Generation got into from time to time. (And to be fair, it is based on one interview with that guy--it's been quoted ad nauseam since then but it's not like he brings it up all the time.)
 

---

Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Well, perhaps I should give it another chance.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by doubtingthomas:
I got the hint when the lift-doors closed, with the symbol on either side like eyes.

---

quote:

---

Also good to know that Missy really is what her name implies...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Rogue:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
I wish we hadn't been told it was the Cybermen in advance. Then the windows on the doors would have been a lot more effective.

---

I agree. Over the new Who series the BBC has put far too many spoilers in its trailers.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
Well, blimey. I don't even remember any windows let alone what shape they were.

---

Memory going? It does that as you get older......
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
I think I was too busy wondering what the Nethersphere was and whether it was the inside of a gigantic computer where "dead" people had been stored - and whether Danny was genuine.
 

---

Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :
 
I, for one, am not convinced Danny died at all. Off-screen deaths always make me suspect that some sort of substitution went on. In fact, I am doubtful that any of the beings we saw in the Nethersphere were truly dead--just snatched by teleporter at the last moment so that even they think they are dead...and so agree to submit to Cyberman conversion.

[Put aside for the moment why that would be necessary--past Cybermen have never needed consent.]

It is also why the 3 words thing doesn't bother me--of course the Cybermen would be opposed to that and would want to convince people not to do it!

[But, again, why would they bother--they never looked for consent to convert before.]

There is still a question that remained unanswered despite being asked a couple times: what does "3W" mean? Can anybody think of anything that begins "www"?
 

---

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
In addition, I'm still not quite sure that Missy is the Master. At the very least, I'm expecting more revelations in the final episode.
 

---

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I thought Danny chose not to give Clara anything that would identify him as truly himself because of what he said before - there was only one way for her to join him, and he didn't want her to take that way.

I don't think people were teleported, as we saw the policeman's hand lying on the ground after he was killed. And he had both hands when being briefed by Seb.

If Missy isn't the Master, who could she be who would know about him, have two hearts, and Timelord technology? Why would the Rani pretend to be the Master? She did behave rather like Simm in hyper mode.

On another site, I was curious about the reaction of male commenters to the transgender thing. He's male! He can't be female! Of both the Master and, potentially, the Doctor. Apart from the fact that we now live in an age when that sort of thing is not unknown any more, it did seem to me that the lads were claiming that maleness is of greater importance than, for them, being human. For the characters, obviously, being Gallifreyan. I don't think, for myself, I would put being female above being a human being. But maybe I'm odd. The fierceness of the comments reminded me of the little boys who make drama queen* performances of moving away from a girl if they have to sit next to her in school. *(Drama king doesn't work the same, does it?)

[ 03. November 2014, 18:22: Message edited by: Penny S ]
 

---

Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 
Romana was dumped in an alternate universe (IIRC, no doubt someone will rush to correct me if I've got that wrong) and could possibly have found her way back. I doubt it's her though.

I did wonder whether it might have been River in some new guise but think that unlikely.

From what I remember there were hints of the Master possibly resurfacing in a female form right at the end of his last episode. I can't quite remember all the details now, but something to do with a ring that rolled to the feet of a mysterious woman after he'd spontaneously combusted, or something?
 

---

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I think that was sorted. Someone used the ring to call him up for some reason.
 

---

Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :
 
Some of us discussed the possibility of a female Doctor before the last regeneration. Emma Thompson was a wonderful suggestion.
 

---

Posted by Sparrow (# 2458) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
I wish we hadn't been told it was the Cybermen in advance. Then the windows on the doors would have been a lot more effective.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
From what I remember there were hints of the Master possibly resurfacing in a female form right at the end of his last episode. I can't quite remember all the details now, but something to do with a ring that rolled to the feet of a mysterious woman after he'd spontaneously combusted, or something?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
[...] On another site, I was curious about the reaction of male commenters to the transgender thing. He's male! He can't be female! Of both the Master and, potentially, the Doctor. Apart from the fact that we now live in an age when that sort of thing is not unknown any more, it did seem to me that the lads were claiming that maleness is of greater importance than, for them, being human. For the characters, obviously, being Gallifreyan. I don't think, for myself, I would put being female above being a human being. But maybe I'm odd. The fierceness of the comments reminded me of the little boys who make drama queen* performances of moving away from a girl if they have to sit next to her in school. *(Drama king doesn't work the same, does it?)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
There were problems with too many spoilers way back in the 1960s and early 70s. The Radio Times managed to give away a couple of surprises.

Also... can I just emphasise how awesome Michelle Gomez is? I sincerely hope she manages to stick around for repeat appearances in the future.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hedgehog:
It is also why the 3 words thing doesn't bother me

...

There is still a question that remained unanswered despite being asked a couple times: what does "3W" mean?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hedgehog:
I, for one, am not convinced Danny died at all. Off-screen deaths always make me suspect that some sort of substitution went on. In fact, I am doubtful that any of the beings we saw in the Nethersphere were truly dead--just snatched by teleporter at the last moment so that even they think they are dead...and so agree to submit to Cyberman conversion.

---

• Identify someone dying/about to die [BY SOME MEANS]
• Upload their mind in total to the Matrix/Nethersphere [BY SOME MEANS]
• Get them to agree to delete their emotions with a slick sales pitch, rather than just pressing the button for them [FOR REASONS]
• Retrieve their body [BY SOME MEANS], before it's rotted/cremated
• Cyberconvert the body [BY SOME MEANS] even if it's a complete mess
• Reunite mind and body [BY SOME MEANS]
• ???
• PROFIT!

quote:

---

This then got the hares running looking back over the series to see if they could spot other red phone boxes in shot.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:
Some of us discussed the possibility of a female Doctor before the last regeneration. Emma Thompson was a wonderful suggestion.

---

No, no my friend! The only possible female doctor has to be Helena Bonham Carter! Can you just imagine it for a moment?
 

---

Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
When she was alive I hoped for Maragaret Ruytherford. Or possibly Chaka Kahn.

[ 04. November 2014, 21:40: Message edited by: Robert Armin ]
 

---

Posted by ChastMastr (# 716) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
Apart from the fact that we now live in an age when that sort of thing is not unknown any more, it did seem to me that the lads were claiming that maleness is of greater importance than, for them, being human.

---

quote:

---

Karl: Liberal Backslider: What if the human race has been mentally re-engineered not to expect bodies any more? Or to accept that the Mausoleum is where bodies go, and they don't see anything strange about it?

---

quote:

---

The Rogue: I've said this before but we had another brilliant Dr Who simple-but-terrifyingly-scary bit when the skeleton bodies just turned their heads to follow Clara and she didn't see.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
I also didn't get the joke. Skeletons aren't commonly seen to be particlarly sexy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
Alright. That escaped me.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sipech:
There's also a note from someone familiar with the St Paul's area pointing out that there was a red phone box on screen in a location where there isn't one in real life, the implication being that it's a prop. But why might someone add an extra telephone box into Doctor Who? Could it be the Master's TARDIS?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Adeodatus:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sipech:
But why might someone add an extra telephone box into Doctor Who? Could it be the Master's TARDIS?

---

I suppose it might just be set dressing (let's lay it on with a trowel that we're in Old London Town), but still...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
Interesting that the extra showed that much more of Danny's death was shot than was actually shown...I wonder why it was edited out.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jay-Emm:

Even more importantly...has Moffat realised that he's written a really dated episode. No-one under 2 in the UK will ever have seen white noise for real!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ferijen:
I seemed to have something in my eye at the salute

---

quote:

---

And the doctor implied that the whole afterlife thing was an invention to build up the army, but then Danny appears to be in a genuine one.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by angelica37:
and we have seen the last of Clara.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by balaam:
How did the Cyberarmour get into the graves?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by angelica37:
It wasn't as bad as I thought it might be, Missy as the Master was good (I suppose she will be returning) and we have seen the last of Clara. Wish that Danny could have survived though. And Father Christmas doesn't bode well.

---

Yes, agree with you about Father Christmas. But have we really seen the last of Clara? Did we ever have it properly explained why she kept popping up in different time eras?
 

---

Posted by M. (# 3291) on :
 
I loved the beginning but the ending was messy. I think it was on another website that someone suggested that the plot was almost incidental and I can see that.

The idea, though, was just brilliant, what a resource for cybermen!

Loved Michelle Gomez as the Master, although I still wish it had been the Rani. Chris Addison was brilliant, just the right amount of disgusting smarmy.

And I doubt we've seen the last of Clara. I know Sarah-Jane left just like that, but companions don't leave like that these days.

All in all, it's been a really good series, although it's all been earth bound I think*. I liked both David Tennant and Matt Smith, but somehow, it does feel more like real Doctor Who again (which I know is a daft thing to say really but it does).

M.
*Well, I got that round my neck, didn't I? Apart from Into the Dalek, Mummy on the Orient Express, Time Heist and Kill the Moon, of course.

[ 09. November 2014, 08:11: Message edited by: M. ]
 

---

Posted by Mudfrog (# 8116) on :
 
Was anyone confused by the girl who had a bow tie, said they were cool and used an inhaler?
 

---

Posted by Stumbling Pilgrim (# 7637) on :
 
Recalling 'Time Heist', does anyone else think Missy's disintegration thingy might be a transporter rather than a deadly weapon? (No? OK then - but I'd like to think so, cos it will be a pity if we've seen the last of Osgood.)

I was intrigued by the way the whole thing was topped and tailed with a lie - Clara spent a lot of time on her 'I'm the Doctor' bluff, and even the credits carried it along (nice touch), and they ended by lying to each other that everything was fine and their lives had somewhere to go. It made me wonder again, how much of what we see and hear can we trust?
('Never trust a hug, it's just a way of hiding your face' - )
 

---

Posted by Dormouse (# 5954) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Was anyone confused by the girl who had a bow tie, said they were cool and used an inhaler?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Was anyone confused by the girl who had a bow tie, said they were cool and used an inhaler?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Was anyone confused by the girl who had a bow tie, said they were cool and used an inhaler?

---

quote:

---

I liked both David Tennant and Matt Smith, but somehow, it does feel more like real Doctor Who again

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
But have we really seen the last of Clara? Did we ever have it properly explained why she kept popping up in different time eras?

---

quote:

---

By M
*Well, I got that round my neck, didn't I? Apart from Into the Dalek, Mummy on the Orient Express, Time Heist and Kill the Moon, of course.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Roll on Christmas and Santa, you know why? Because I have a sense of humour and enjoy Dr Who.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pyx_e:

quote:

---

I liked both David Tennant and Matt Smith, but somehow, it does feel more like real Doctor Who again

---

Exactly, Capaldi was stunning, kind, virulent, acerbic, funny, other, wrong, very very funny.

All episodes have gaps, but the arcs in this series were substantial. The main characters all stood up on their own. I loved Tennant and Smith but this is more like a real Doctor. Harder, softer. "Hugs just allow you to hide your face." big wow.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eigon:
Then they caught a glimpse of John Hurt, and how she got out of the time line was never explained.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stumbling Pilgrim:
Recalling 'Time Heist', does anyone else think Missy's disintegration thingy might be a transporter rather than a deadly weapon? (No? OK then - but I'd like to think so, cos it will be a pity if we've seen the last of Osgood.)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Stumbling Pilgrim:
I was intrigued by the way the whole thing was topped and tailed with a lie - Clara spent a lot of time on her 'I'm the Doctor' bluff, and even the credits carried it along (nice touch), and they ended by lying to each other that everything was fine and their lives had somewhere to go. It made me wonder again, how much of what we see and hear can we trust?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Penny S:
And the doctor implied that the whole afterlife thing was an invention to build up the army, but then Danny appears to be in a genuine one.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hedgehog:
I don't know what to make of Santa Claus...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:
The Christmas episode already looks like crap, as was the Robin Hood debacle.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
I can always rely on this thread to give me the impression we are all watching completely different shows.

---

The thing is, with rare exceptions, there is someone who likes each episode. Different people like different things. Which means that it is probably doing a great job.
 

---

Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :
 
I really enjoyed it. I did think the solution to the cyber men was a bit too easy but it did tie up some of the themes, like Danny the soldier. I liked the brigadier turning up, another soldier doing something right. I'm still loving Capaldi's Doctor. I was pleased to see Osgood and sad to see her die - did we ever find out if she was human or Zygon?
My favourite loose end from this episode was wondering how Clara was going to return a long dead boy from a far away country to his parents
 

---

Posted by The Great Gumby (# 10989) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hedgehog:
It certainly was not a story that bears thinking about...because whenever you do you will notice something else about it that makes no sense. So, really, very much like Classic Who. For example, I love "The Curse of Fenric" but only because I refuse to think about how it makes zero sense. The same could be said for this story.

---

quote:

---

But I like the suggestion that the Doctor is not a good man, just an idiot with a box going around doing good here and there. NuWho has had too much of him as the Galactic Hero saving the Universe every year. It comes down to what makes for good suspense. Too many writers seem to think that if you raise the stakes, then the suspense will increase. So we get away from the Doctor saving a small group of people and increase it to saving the planet, and then saving the solar system, then saving the galaxy, then saving the universe, then saving the multi-verse, then saving the nature of all reality itself...but none of that creates good drama. This season had a lot of small group of people stories and I have enjoyed it. Sadly, the finale turned back to a planet-threatening story.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Erik:
But I didn't buy the whole cyber-conversion of the dead by the water. Admittedly it would have bee grim if they were fully converted but how does one drop of water make a whole cyber-suit?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
A few questions, however: What was the point of the post-it notes in Clara's place at the beginning of the first episode of the last one?

---

quote:

---

Was 3W actually on earth? I mean, the Danny-Cyberman was on earth, as was Clara when she was unconscious. Was part of it in St. Paul's?

---

quote:

---

Is the Mistress (who was excellent) now dead or sent to another dimension or something? Who actually shot her, the Doctor or the Brigadier-Cyberman?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
Missy is now my favourite incarnation of the Master

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by balaam:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
Missy is now my favourite incarnation of the Master

---

Not Roger Delgado? High praise indeed.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:

quote:

---

Originally posted by balaam:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dafyd:
Missy is now my favourite incarnation of the Master

---

Not Roger Delgado? High praise indeed.

---

Delgado is a great actor, but his Master is a standard issue evil villain in the Ming the Merciless mould.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:
My favourite loose end from this episode was wondering how Clara was going to return a long dead boy from a far away country to his parents

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ariel:
Missy is definitely more in the John Simm line of frightening villains - that fine edge between sanity and complete lunacy. She certainly played the part well and it wasn't a comfortable or easy role. However, I disliked her portrayal a lot - the character was too stagey and affected by half.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by balaam:
Delgado's Master could also be one dimential in some stories, but that is also true of Pertwee era Doctor Who that he wasn't in. You can't blame Delgado for that. He defined the role.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by balaam:
When I look back over the season there is something bothering me — Orson Pink.

If Danny is his ancestor and was upgraded to Cyberdanny, where does Orson come from?

If Danny does not return it leaves plot hole you could get lost in.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
I've seen mentions here about Clara seemingly coming back, and also Father Christmas. Was there a brief preview of the next episode or something? There wasn't one on the stream I watched.

---

Yes. As the credits started to roll the music suddenly stopped and we were on the Tardis with the Doctor. A booming voice announced something to the effect that it couldn't all be left like that and door of the Tardis burst open, enter Father Christmas. He said something along the lines of, "What would you like for Christmas?"

I'm sorry I sound so vague, I'm sure my short term memory is going so while we only watched it last night I find it hard to remember detail. I found it all most unsatisfactory and hope the Christmas special sorts it out.

Nen - ho ho ho.
 

---

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
Do we know OOU that Danny doesn't return? We haven't seen a body ...
 

---

Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :
 
I'd be surprised if Danny returned, he certainly appeared to have become a cyberman and there is no precedent for recovery from that. It would mean the cyberman invasion would have been unreal as well as the 'afterlife'. The old lady saw him being hit and there was someone put on an ambulance, etc. Faking death isn't the sort of thing Doctor Who usually does to human characters, it's not Sherlock I think it would be far more shocking for him to actually still be alive than for him to have died.
Clara being pregnant is a far more obvious solution, well, to me anyway.
 

---

Posted by LeRoc (# 3216) on :
 
Just as fun speculation, I don't think that bringing Danny back would mean that the invasion or the Nethersphere were unreal, or that his death was faked. I could imagine the following scenario:

• Danny died at the traffic accident.
• Just before he died, his consciousness was uploaded to the Nethersphere.
• His consciousness was reunited with his dead body, making him the cyberman we saw at the cemitery.
• His body somehow survived the explosion that destroyed the cloud.
• Through some phlebotinum, the removal of his emotions is reversed. Heck, Santa could do it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by balaam:
A clip from the Christmas special on Children in Need showed Clara, so that's one question answered.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Hedgehog:
Of course, they could handle it by just saying that Clara is pregnant but that would suggest that she and Danny were, ummmm, more than friends. Outside of marriage. And before Clara was willing to be honest with him and was still sneaking away for fun and games with the Doctor. All of which is possible, of course, but a little unsatisfactory.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rev per Minute:
Umm, this may be a Pond (Atlantic, not Amy) difference, but Danny and Clara getting intimate 'outside of marriage' would raise no eyebrows here.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rev per Minute:

When you factor in that the majority of children born in (England &) Wales are born to unmarried parents, I think that any Clara pregnancy will scare precisely zero horses.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by M.:
Chris Addison was brilliant, just the right amount of disgusting smarmy.

---

I was trying to remember who he reminded me of .... Mark Gatiss as Mycroft in Sherlock!
 

---

Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :
 
For those who care about such things, it appears that the official stats reflect that Series 8 with Peter Capaldi drew about the same number of viewers as tuned in for Series 5, 6 & 7 (all Matt Smith). If I am reading the information correctly, special episodes like the 50th Anniversary episode or the Christmas ones were excluded from the analysis.
 

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Posted by Dafyd (# 5549) on :
 
If Doctor Who is losing viewers at such a rate it can't be long until it's cancelled. Moffat must go now. Bring back Tennant and Rose, and put them in stories exactly like the ones from when I was twelve.
 

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Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :
 
I thought Hedgehog said the viewing figures are the same
Tea, perhaps I missed some irony there!

[ 18. November 2014, 07:05: Message edited by: Heavenly Anarchist ]
 

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Posted by Heavenly Anarchist (# 13313) on :
 
Aaahhh! Not only do I mess up that post but my ipad turns eta to tea! Which perhaps I need more of.
 

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Posted by Tubbs (# 440) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Hedgehog:

quote:

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Originally posted by Rev per Minute:
Umm, this may be a Pond (Atlantic, not Amy) difference, but Danny and Clara getting intimate 'outside of marriage' would raise no eyebrows here.

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It is not so much a Pond difference as it is that I am hopelessly old-fashioned. Heck, I use a mechanical pocket watch because I find battery-operated watches to be too gimmicky.

And I use words like "Heck." 'Nuf said.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Dafyd:
If Doctor Who is losing viewers at such a rate it can't be long until it's cancelled. Moffat must go now. Bring back Tennant and Rose, and put them in stories exactly like the ones from when I was twelve.

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But Dafyd, the 10th Doctor and Rose weren't in the Sensorites!
 

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Posted by orfeo (# 13878) on :
 
Bring back Ian Chesterton!
 

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Posted by Robert Armin (# 182) on :
 
The Christmas special will be, naturally enough, on December 25th. Does anyone know exactly when? And, more importantly, when it will be repeated? Even though the trailers make it look dreadful, I want to catch it.

orfeo - complete agreement, but extend this to bring back Susan as well. I'm currently listening to a Big Finish historical epic, Farewell Great Macedon, where Russell and Ford reprise their roles, and it is wonderful!
 

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Posted by Hedgehog (# 14125) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Armin:
The Christmas special will be, naturally enough, on December 25th. Does anyone know exactly when?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Robert Armin:
The Christmas special will be, naturally enough, on December 25th. Does anyone know exactly when? And, more importantly, when it will be repeated? Even though the trailers make it look dreadful, I want to catch it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by M.:
I thought Father Christmas lives in Lapland - why are they going to the North Pole?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Gill H:
The Christmas specials are not usually my favourites, and last year was particularly awful

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quote:

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Originally posted by M.:
I thought Father Christmas lives in Lapland - why are they going to the North Pole?

M.

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He does. I have proof.

 

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Posted by Adeodatus (# 4992) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Dafyd:
The Snowmen.
A Christmas Carol.
Time of the Doctor.

The Doctor, the Widow and the Wardrobe.
Voyage of the Titanic.
The Runaway Bride.
The Christmas Invasion.
The Next Doctor.
End of About Sodding Time.

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quote:

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Originally posted by beatmenace:
"Watch where you're going with that Mobile , Eugene".

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quote:

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Originally posted by Roseofsharon:
This I found scary!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Wet Kipper:
other than the "yippee-aye-aaaaaay" bit where the Dr drove the sleigh, I thought it was good.

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quote:

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Christmas Day Itinery
1. DVD (Alien)
2. DVD (the Thing from another world)
3. Dad comes round
4. DVD (Miracle on 34th Street)
5. Thrones Marathon
6. Forgive Dave???

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quote:

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There is a point where Clara is coming out of the Tardis and, as Macarius pointed out to me, the arm holding the door open is clearly not hers (I will need to go and have another look to see exactly when/where it is).

Is it just an error? Does Stephen Moffat make errors like that? Am I just reading too much into it?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
No way!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Adeodatus:
But I confess I'm a bit confused about why he's finished it the way he has. He's only covered the Peter Capaldi stories as first-reaction reviews, which is very different from the style of the rest of the Eruditorum.

It leads me to think that perhaps in a year or two he'll come back to it. On the other hand, perhaps he sees his beautifully convoluted coverage of River Song's story as the last thing he wants to say about the show.

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quote:

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Either way, that last entry is a lovely piece of writing. I'm only part-way through it yet, but Sandifer is clearly a very talented and skilled writer, writing about a subject close to his heart.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Eigon:
Poor Osgood.
I've just started a book called Who Goes There, by Nick Griffiths, which is an account of him visiting all the Doctor Who locations he can find. It looks like it's going to be a fun read.
Apparently the doll factory in Spearhead from Space was just off the Holloway Road in London - the interior views, anyway.

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