Thread: HEAVEN: Jan 2016 Book Discussion: The Nine Tailors by Dorothy L. Sayers Board: Limbo / Ship of Fools.


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Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
This novel is a classic of detective fiction, one of the pillars of the genre. It also has the virtue of being a stand-alone Lord Peter Wimsey novel, which makes it a great portal not only into Lord Peter but into all of Sayers' work. I believe it was the first novel of hers that I ever read.

Because of its popularity it is very widely available indeed (you could seek for it in your local public library). But it is not yet out of copyright and so is not up on Gutenberg. If you need a paper copy and the library and local used book stores come up dry, I suggest Ebay or abe.books. You can certainly get a copy for less than retail price, probably for little more than the postage.

If this is agreeable to you, we can zip through it (it is a brisk read, not a dull page in it) and start discussing it in mid-month, around the 20th. Between now and then I may pop in here and post an interesting link or two. Sayers has a ton of fans (there's an entire society somewhere) and there's vast material available.

[ 24. March 2016, 09:22: Message edited by: Firenze ]
 

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Posted by Helen-Eva (# 15025) on :
 
Good choice - specially as a lot of the plot happens at New Year. In fact I've been thinking of the descriptions of the flooding as well travelling around Yorkshire recently.
 

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Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :
 
Read it years ago, but will re-read in preparation for this!
 

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
There was a question in the King William School's annual quiz relating to this book.
 

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Posted by Bibaculus (# 18528) on :
 
Odd. Just this morning this book popped into my head, and I thought 'It is ages since I read that. Should read it again.' I think it was because of the new year's peal.
 

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Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
(I really ought to wait to post this but I am sure to forget the point, so am doing it now, a nonspoilery thing to talk about.)

A good many of us have already read the book before. When and where did you first read it?

I was staying at the house of the aunt of my college roommate, over the Thanksgiving holiday. My parents being posted in Europe, my roommate kindly invited me to join the family for the vacation. In the guest room was a bookcase, which I immediately canvassed. And in the bookcase was a mass-market paperback edition of /The Nine Tailors. I believe it was the Ballantine edition, the one with a fetching illustration of a bell with a skull for the clapper. I was a much, much faster reader in those days, and I believe it only took me a couple hours to devour the novel whole. I was instantly hooked, and have been a Sayers fan to this day.
 

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Posted by Tree Bee (# 4033) on :
 
Downloaded to my iPad ( I haven't read it before).
 

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Posted by Sarasa (# 12271) on :
 
I re-read it a couple of years ago, so it's time to dust it off again. One of Sayer's best and I've read them all.
 

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Posted by Eigon (# 4917) on :
 
I love The Nine Tailors! I'm looking forward to the discussion.
 

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Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :
 
I began reading it again last night (New Year's Eve), as I do every year. I'll probably have it completely devoured by Sunday night.

One of my favorites of the Sayers' canon.
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Read it a zillion times, it's awesome.
 

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Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
It's one of my favourites too. Sadly I don't think I own a copy here, so I'll have to track one down.
 

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Posted by The Intrepid Mrs S (# 17002) on :
 
I have the radio play (Ian Carmichael as Lord Peter, Peter Jones as Bunter) on my iPod. It's brilliant - but it does mean I know it pretty much word for word!

Mrs. S, a Sayers fan for 50 years
 

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Posted by Sandemaniac (# 12829) on :
 
It's near-compulsory reading if you are a ringer - there is one noticeable ringing howler in it, but twas needed for the plot...

It also introduced me to the existence of St Wendreda's in March, with its great angel roof.

AG
 

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Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Over at Abe books, the gigantic used-book aggregator there's at least a couple dozen copies available for less than four dollars, including shipping. My systems show me American sellers, but there must be a way to make it show you sellers in your country.
 

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Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :
 
I'll try to participate, and get a library copy. Read it a long time ago, and liked it. IIRC, there was a BBC TV production of it for the Lord Peter Wimsey series, back in the '80s, maybe.
 

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Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
I'm in, even though I have fallen at the first hurdle. I can't remember when I first read it - I think I discovered Dorothy Sayers when I was at university as I have a vague recollection of reading 'Five Red Herrings' whilst on holiday in Galloway (near the setting of the story). I probably read 'Nine Tailors' because it was by Dorothy Sayers, but I can't even remember which one of her books I read first!
 

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Posted by Eigon (# 4917) on :
 
The BBC version starred Ian Carmichael, who also did the audio version.
 

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Posted by Sandemaniac (# 12829) on :
 
For UK books, just use abebooks.co.uk rather than .com.

AG
 

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Posted by ArachnidinElmet (# 17346) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Penny S:
There was a question in the King William School's annual quiz relating to this book.

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Really.

*Arachnid scuttles off to check the questions*

Many thanks, Penny S.
 

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Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :
 
I remember exactly when and where I first read Dorothy Sayers -- Gaudy Night, at sixteen, on my aunt's back porch. I read all four of the books with Harriet in them fairly quickly (obviously having to go back in time a bit after starting with GN) but it took me several years to get around to reading the Lord Peter novels that didn't have Harriet in them, and while I enjoyed them all, I've never reread any of those (I've reread all four of the Lord Peter/Harriet novels many, many times). So it will be interesting to go back to The Nine Tailors again -- I don't remember much about it.
 

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Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Every now and then I will post a fun link here, about the book. This will not only keep the topic more or less up in the lists, but supply more fodder for chat.

Here is a short essay by award winning fantasy writer Jo Walton. She is English, but now lives in Canada, and her novels are published in the US. She blogs extensively about literary subjects, frequently about her favorite books, of which this is one. No especial spoilers in it, but if you are sensitive about such things come back to it later.
 

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Posted by Sandemaniac (# 12829) on :
 
OMG, read the comments and knit the socks!

AG
 

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by ArachnidinElmet:

quote:

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Originally posted by Penny S:
There was a question in the King William School's annual quiz relating to this book.

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Really.

*Arachnid scuttles off to check the questions*

Many thanks, Penny S.

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quote:

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'Yes--he'd be interesting. But if I give Wilfrid all those violent and lifelike feelings, he'll throw the whole book out of balance.'
'You would have to abandon the jig-saw kind of story and write a book about human beings for a change.'
'I'm afraid to try that, Peter. It might go too near the bone.'
'It might be the wisest thing you could do.'
'Write it out and get rid of it?'
'Yes.'
'I'll think about that. It would hurt like hell.'
'What would that matter, if it made a good book?'
She was taken aback, not by what he said, but by his saying it. She had never imagined that he regarded her work very seriously, and she had certainly not expected him to take this ruthless attitude about it. The protective male? He was being about as protective as a can-opener.
'You haven't yet,' he went on, 'written the book you could write if you tried. Probably you couldn't write it when you were too close to things. But you could do it now, if you had the— the— '
'The guts?'
'Exactly.'
'I don't think I could face it.'
'Yes, you could. And you'll get no peace till you do. I've been running away from myself for twenty years, and it doesn't work. What's the good of making mistakes if you don't use them? Have a shot. Start on Wilfrid.'

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from Chapter 15 of Gaudy Night
 

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Posted by Pearl B4 Swine (# 11451) on :
 
Chick (JRTerrier) and I went up to bed early on New Year's Eve, not being partiers, or even stay-up-laters. I always read a good while, and having nothing fresh from the library, I rummaged through the old standards on my bedside table. There was Nine Tailors worn and beloved, so I blew off the dust and started reading. I hadn't given a thought to the way the book begins. What a delightful coincidence. Naturally, I'm re-reading the whole thing, and loving every page of it.
 

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Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
All of Sayers' non-Wimsey stuff is much less popular -- I like The Documents in the Case but many don't.

A series of books about the same characters very often drifts into character/romance issues -- it is difficult to keep on having world-shaking crises convincingly. (After a while one is forced to wonder why the bad guys do not have better death planet engineering and design.) This always leads to a break in the readership, as the fans divide. On one side is the people who liked the detective puzzles and cookie-cutter characterization, and on the other are the people who adore the new romantic/realistic direction. Lois Bujold faced this with her Vorkosigan series (space opera), which break along about volume 8 with a sudden left turn into romance issues. Boy, you probably heard the yelling.
 

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Posted by Bibaculus (# 18528) on :
 
Well I have dug out an old paperback of the Nine Tailors and made a start.

It is the only Sayers book I have ever read. the first one I tried to read was called Stridings Folly. I thought maybe I should give Dorothy L Sayers a go because of her Anglo-catholic views. Knowing nothing about her books, I selected one at random in a bookshop, the said Stridings Folley. i did not enjoy it and didn't finish it. Later, as I was a ringer, someone suggested giving The Nine Tailors, which I did enjoy, and expect to enjoy again.
 

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Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :
 
Yes BroJames, I've always thought that passage from Gaudy Night is very "meta" as we might say today ... it's Sayers describing, through Harriet and Peter's conversation, exactly the process she was going through with the LPW novels. I'm definitely in the category of readers who prefer the more fleshed-out, emotionally complex Lord Peter of the later, post-Harriet novels, and I'm generally only a mystery reader by accident -- there needs to be something else, a great setting or great characterization or a great love story -- to draw me in to a mystery novel.
 

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Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
So do I. But there is a large contingent indeed who do not want that, and demand more stories cut from the exact same loaf. Which is how you wind up with dozens of Nero Wolfe novels, or Mills & Boone, or season after season of Murder She Wrote.
 

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Posted by HarryLime (# 18525) on :
 
I read and enjoyed this a few years ago, but it was slightly spoiled for me by a sense of pervasive snobbery: an aristocratic hero, patronising working-class characters. It seems to me this is a feature of a lot of classic English detective fiction. Josephine Tey is ruined for me by this trait. But then I am absurdly class-conscious.

Perhaps I should try the non-Wimsey Sayers novels.
 

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Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :
 
HL, I think it very important to read Sayers' books with a full appreciation of when they happen. Otherwise, the class distinctions and prejudices can be quite off-putting. And, of course, this was real time to the author, who was writing contemporary, not historical, fiction.

It is interesting in reading the complete Sayers canon to notice how such things develop (along with Lord Peter's mannerisms). He is a far different person in Gaudy Night, for instance, that he is in Whose Body.
 

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Posted by HarryLime (# 18525) on :
 
I'm pleased to hear that Sayers's attitude towards class develops over time. I'm aware of the historical context, but she was writing at the same time as Raymond Chandler and Graham Greene, for example. I think it's possible to write an old-fashioned English detective story without snobbery. Edmund Crispin did that well.

Sayers does appeal to me, though, and I'll definitely give her another chance. To be fair, Josephine Tey is much worse, and I bracket Sayers with Tey because they seem to me to be similar.
 

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Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
And Sayers (and her creation Wimsey) lived in a period of enormous change. Wimsey is on record ad being born in 1890 -- Sayers herself was born in 1893. She was writing contemporary fiction, about things that she knew about -- men coming back changed from the trenches, watching the world and the culture completely alter. A biography fo Wimsey.
The Nine Tailors has a large chunk of autobiography in it -- Sayers drew upon her girlhood with her clergyman father.
 

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Posted by HarryLime (# 18525) on :
 
The Nine Tailors is certainly an atmospheric and compelling novel and I enjoyed it despite the class issue.
 

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Posted by BroJames (# 9636) on :
 

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Originally posted by HarryLime:
I'm pleased to hear that Sayers's attitude towards class develops over time. I'm aware of the historical context, but she was writing at the same time as Raymond Chandler and Graham Greene, for example. I think it's possible to write an old-fashioned English detective story without snobbery. Edmund Crispin did that well.

Sayers does appeal to me, though, and I'll definitely give her another chance. To be fair, Josephine Tey is much worse, and I bracket Sayers with Tey because they seem to me to be similar.

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Originally posted by Penny S:
I felt patronised by her inclusion of Greek quotations without translation. It was like a verbal and quiet educated version of the sort of shouting lads do to proclaim that they own a space and others don't belong there. (Heard a bunch do it round the Pantiles in Tunbridge Wells once, which was very much a dissonant experience. The shouting. Not the Greek.)

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I think it's possible to write an old-fashioned English detective story without snobbery. Edmund Crispin did that well.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Penny S:
I felt patronised by her inclusion of Greek quotations without translation. It was like a verbal and quiet educated version of the sort of shouting lads do to proclaim that they own a space and others don't belong there. (Heard a bunch do it round the Pantiles in Tunbridge Wells once, which was very much a dissonant experience. The shouting. Not the Greek.)

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Originally posted by Helen-Eva:
It's the long passages of French that get most people. The Greek I can cope with on the grounds that it's only short quotes and you can skip them without worrying. Unlike in TS Eliot bother him.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Helen-Eva:

quote:

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Originally posted by Penny S:
I felt patronised by her inclusion of Greek quotations without translation. It was like a verbal and quiet educated version of the sort of shouting lads do to proclaim that they own a space and others don't belong there. (Heard a bunch do it round the Pantiles in Tunbridge Wells once, which was very much a dissonant experience. The shouting. Not the Greek.)

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It's the long passages of French that get most people. The Greek I can cope with on the grounds that it's only short quotes and you can skip them without worrying. Unlike in TS Eliot bother him.

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Originally posted by HCH:
I rather like the way the Wimsey novels explore different setting and parts of society: East Anglia, Scotland, London, an advertising agency, a men's club and the House of Lords. Aspects of her own life are woven into them as well: experience as an advertising copy writer, as the spouse of a man damaged by the great war, at Oxford and as a teenage girl who wants to be a writer someday.

I do think "Have His Carcase" is sometimes too silly, and I have often wished for meticulously annotated editions, as I am not familiar with, for instance, Kai Lung.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

quote:

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Originally posted by Helen-Eva:
It's the long passages of French that get most people. The Greek I can cope with on the grounds that it's only short quotes and you can skip them without worrying. Unlike in TS Eliot bother him.

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I don't think there's anywhere where the French passages add more than a little colour to the story, though.

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The famous example is a short story where a male thief impersonating a female maid to steal jewels is unmasked because he accidentally refers to himself in the French masculine rather than feminine form of a word (he says "je suis beau" instead of "je suis belle" or whatever it is).

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Originally posted by venbede:
It is a favourite book of mine – I had it with me when I was in hospital last year and is one of the few books I’d want to read in those circumstances.

Much though I love it there are a number of inconsistencies, but perhaps I better not mention some of them till people have read the book.

However… The picture of the church at the beginning of the book shows a typical Perpendicular Fenland church with West tower and lower East end chancel. But the book says it was built as an abbey. I can’t think of a medieval abbey church with that disposition – the chancel would be the same height as the nave and the tower would typically be at the crossing.

Mr Venables says much of the church is Transitional – a rare style and certainly not the style of the picture.

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Originally posted by Jane R:
that's just the way Wimsey and Harriet talk to each other. They aren't deliberately excluding other people (they generally only do it in private). They're code-switching and sprinkling in literary quotes in order to communicate with each other, just as two people with the same job will use specialized language to communicate with each other or families have private in-jokes.

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Originally posted by Penny S:
Is there not something about the position of Rector being in the gift of some local family in the Big House, the squire, rather than the diocesan bishop? Was not Peter in some such position? Not sure if it still applies, though. Squire's pews not withstanding.

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Originally posted by georgiaboy:
As I understand Mr. Venables' description of his church, it sounds like quite a lot of rebuilding happened after the Dissolution (and probable decay of the structure… .

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Originally posted by georgiaboy:
Some find Mrs. Venables annoying, but she seems very typical to me, though I know very few CofE clergy wives personally.

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Is there not something about the position of Rector being in the gift of some local family in the Big House, the squire, rather than the diocesan bishop? Was not Peter in some such position? Not sure if it still applies, though. Squire's pews not withstanding.

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But the characters in a book aren't doing anything in private. There is, is there not, an audience.

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But I realise I am obviously in error. I know my place. I'll go back behind the baize door.

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Sorry, didn't mean to sound as if I was showing off.
 

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Posted by Bibaculus (# 18528) on :
 
Patronage is, indeed, quite separate from the incumbent being a vicar or a rector. The difference in title is purely historical, as tithes were replaced by stipends by the Tith Commutation Act of 1836. the replacement of the parson's Freehold with Common Tenure didn't change anything. Until the late 1960s, there were also some incumbents styles Perpetual Curates, but that is a side issue.

There is no suggestion, as I recall, that the Thorpes are lords of the manor, or hold the patronage of the living, though the might. I would guess that when Fenchurch Abbey was dissolved, it would have been the rector, with an altar for the parish in the Abbey Church, so the rectory probably passed to the Crown, which must have refounded the parish as a rectory. This would be unlikely - the Crown would more likely have used the revenues of the abbey, including the tithes due to it as rector, to reward whoever the lands passed to.

My guess is Sayers didn't give much thought to this, and little is to be gained from trying to make too much sense of this.
 

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Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
Readers of Trollope will remember Mr Crawley, the poverty stricken Perpetual Curate of Hogglestock.

Perpetual Curates didn't even get the tithes.
 

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Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
If an author assumes I have greater knowledge than I do, I'm flattered, not patronised.
 

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Posted by Bibaculus (# 18528) on :
 

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Originally posted by venbede:
Readers of Trollope will remember Mr Crawley, the poverty stricken Perpetual Curate of Hogglestock.

Perpetual Curates didn't even get the tithes.

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Originally posted by Penny S:
But the characters in a book aren't doing anything in private. There is, is there not, an audience.

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I must say I would love to know what happens to Hilary after the end of the book.

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:

In the meantime here is an article from Scientific American about bells in general, and the Sayers novel in particular.

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Originally posted by Sandemaniac:
the Reverend Venables

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Eek. Mr Venables, please.
 

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Posted by Sandemaniac (# 12829) on :
 
venbede, at risk of appearing a total ignoramus, why?

AG (ignoramus)
 

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Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
This issue crops up regularly here.

He is the Reverend Theodore Venables, or the Reverend Mr Venables.

Sayer or Whimsey would never dream of calling him Rev Venables. He is never called that in the book.
 

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Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on :
 
I saw the television series of this, with Ian Carmichael as Lord Peter, in my early teens and subsequently read and fell in love with the book. My old copy hardback went AWOL and one of the joys of Kindle ownership has been downloading and revisiting it. I'm delighted to have a reason to read it yet again.

I know nothing of campanology but I love the descriptions of the bells and the ringing of the peals and the way those bells are characters in the book almost as much as the human ones. The only other book I can think of which so effectively has inanimate objects as characters in the story is Robert Harris's "Pompeii" with the Augusta (the aqueduct) and the mountain (Vesuvius).

I'm enjoying reading everyone's comments.
 

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Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Here's a good question, which has much exercised American readers. The Vebnables serve Lord Peter muffins (and the butter runs down the Reverend's curr). What were these muffins like?
Surely they were not like these Thomas's English muffins. Americans buy these in the grocery store and we split them, run them through the toaster and butter them, usually for breakfast.
Can they be like this, the other thing we call muffins? Note that this item is baked in a paper cup (probably supported in a muffin pan, with metal cups). To eat it you peel the paper cup off; it is not possible to toast or butter the thing and if you look at the calorie and sugar load you can see why more enrichment is probably not called for. They are more closely akin to cupcakes, but they are not frosted.
 

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Posted by Sarasa (# 12271) on :
 
I was assuming Lord Peter was served the first sort. Freshly home made and toasted by the fire. Here is the Paul Hollywood (from Great British Bake Off) recipe.
 

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Posted by Sandemaniac (# 12829) on :
 
The first linked, Brenda, are exactly what I would understand as a muffin. Being a Brit and all that. They might not be split, of course, I suspect that back then they'd have been toasted on a fork at a fire.

venbede, at risk of compounding, why those specific forms of address? Or is it just bizarre CofE arcana? In other words, why can't I say Rev instead of Reverend when writing in the 21st century?

AG
 

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Posted by Ariel (# 58) on :
 

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
What were these muffins like?
Surely they were not like these Thomas's English muffins.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Sandemaniac:


venbede, at risk of compounding, why those specific forms of address? Or is it just bizarre CofE arcana? In other words, why can't I say Rev instead of Reverend when writing in the 21st century?

AG

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Originally posted by venbede:
Because it is good manners. You don't call the ?Right Honourable David Cameron Right Honourable Camero , do you?

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Originally posted by Nenya:
I saw the television series of this, with Ian Carmichael as Lord Peter, in my early teens and subsequently read and fell in love with the book. My old copy hardback went AWOL and one of the joys of Kindle ownership has been downloading and revisiting it. I'm delighted to have a reason to read it yet again.

I know nothing of campanology but I love the descriptions of the bells and the ringing of the peals and the way those bells are characters in the book almost as much as the human ones. The only other book I can think of which so effectively has inanimate objects as characters in the story is Robert Harris's "Pompeii" with the Augusta (the aqueduct) and the mountain (Vesuvius).

I'm enjoying reading everyone's comments.

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And now for something completely different: a sock pattern.

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Originally posted by Landlubber:
Children were still singing the Muffin man song in the 1930s (and up to the 1950s at least) referring to the door-to-door delivery of muffins (like milk, bread and much else).

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Originally posted by Penny S:
I did once, while watching Morris at the Rochester Sweeps Festival, and hearing the Cathedral bells, consider that there might possibly be some sort of link between the maths of bells and the maths of the Morris patterns, and that if certain patterns were to be done simultaneously something might happen... under the influence of Pratchett, I must have been at the time. I definitely thought there was a possible plot in attempting to prevent whatever it was.

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I can proudly claim to be both a former change ringer and a former morris man (isn't everyone?) And I think I can say with certainty that there is no connection whatsoever.
 

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Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
Well, you would say that, wouldn't you...
 

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Posted by Sir Kevin (# 3492) on :
 
I'm in. Should be going to local library later today and I shall expect it on the shelf.

Speaking of shelves, mine are cluttered. We have more books than we have room for because we read a book once and then put it away. I wish we could hire a retired librarian like Tree Be (sp.) to catalogue them! She worked in Greenwich and we met her for a lovely lunch at a pub on thee Thames when we went to England to meet some local Shipmates. I know SC and Esme remember us well, but we now are much slimmer and have more white hair than when we met nearly ten years ago!
 

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Posted by Tree Bee (# 4033) on :
 

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Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
I'm in. Should be going to local library later today and I shall expect it on the shelf.

Speaking of shelves, mine are cluttered. We have more books than we have room for because we read a book once and then put it away. I wish we could hire a retired librarian like Tree Be (sp.) to catalogue them! She worked in Greenwich and we met her for a lovely lunch at a pub on thee Thames when we went to England to meet some local Shipmates. I know SC and Esme remember us well, but we now are much slimmer and have more white hair than when we met nearly ten years ago!

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Originally posted by Sparrow:

quote:

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Originally posted by Landlubber:
Children were still singing the Muffin man song in the 1930s (and up to the 1950s at least) referring to the door-to-door delivery of muffins (like milk, bread and much else).

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I was certainly still singing it in my Brownie group in the mid 60s.

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Originally posted by Firenze:
It is also that rare (unique?) mystery in which the detective is in effect the murderer. Since if Lord Peter had not turned up then the bells would not have been rung....

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:

Another interesting point to contemplate is class. The divisions are very clear in the text. From the very outset the Rev. signals that he is of the same class as Wimsey (read your book about incunabula!). The Thodays are most superior people.

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Unless it can be argued that the bells intended to kill? Or the ghost/spirit of Abbott Thomas, acting through the bell that bears his name?

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
So food ties into class -- what you eat shows what you are. The Reverend's port shows his class.

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'— untidy, with a wife who does her best on a small stipend; a product of one of our older seats of learning — 1890 vintage — Oxford at a a guess, but not, I fancy, Keble, though as high in his views as the parish allows him to be.'

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'Peter, you're not normal. You have a social conscience far in advance of your sex. Public-house sherry at the vicarage! Ordinary, decent men shuffle and lie till their wives drag them out by the ears.'

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Originally posted by Athrawes:
It always seems to me that the real victims of the novel are Will and Mary. They suffer the most from Deacon's actions, through no fault of their own. Will had a choice of going to the police and having all the gossip, disapproval and his children acknowledged as illegitimate, or trying to sort the problem privately. It is no wonder that he chose the latter path. It was just chance that it went wrong, again through no fault of his.

It also struck me that nothing is done to address this damage, and the only character to actually acknowledge this is Charles Parker, when he said, "Speaking as a policeman, I am shocked. Speaking as a human being, I have every sympathy for you."

I've found the ending of the novel rather sad because of this.

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They would have had to start ringing at 3 in the afternoon so they could finish by midnight (the vicar says it will take nine hours).

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The Mysterious Affair at Styles by Agatha Christie is a mystery with that sort of surprise twist. I hope this is not a spoiler, but the book has been out for half a century or so.

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Originally posted by venbede:
Lord Peter follows the service in his prayer book to say the responses. (Surely he'd know them by heart?) This implies it is a liturgical service. I suspect Sayers hasn't got her liturgy quite right, as she hasn't got her architecture quite right either.

Will and Mary's tragedy is the heart of the book - without it, the book would be whimsical in more ways than one.

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The Paton Walsh sequels go into Peter's succession in detail, but they are frankly a slog.

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Picking up again on the issue of class -- which always confuses and intrigues me, as a colonial reader of English novels -- would the vicar and his wife be on quite the same level socially as Lord Peter?

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I'm less confident of the writer's judgements on other issues (sexuality and race), and I'm not sure that she has attended to them with the same care that she has to the Vane-Whimsey relationship.

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Originally posted by Penny S:
I am not finding most of the locals grating at all, though, except the sluice keeper, who could have been played by one of Shakespeare's clowns.

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I find it a bit odd that Deacon should have so much imagination as is shown in the cover text

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
We could talk about voice. I love how all the characters sound like themselves.

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Originally posted by Sparrow:
Hilary seems to be a very mature and sensible young woman for barely fifteen! Although I guess her privileged upbringing and boarding school education has a lot to do with that.

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Originally posted by Bibaculus:the essence of feudal paternalism.

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Originally posted by Penny S:

communities have responded well to deal with what has happened and keep people under cover and fed. And that has included those who Sayers couldn't have dreamed of. Not just Anglicans and Non-conformists working together.

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Originally posted by venbede:

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Originally posted by Bibaculus:the essence of feudal paternalism.

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For me the most powerful scene is when the entire village takes refuge in the church to escape the flood. A cohesive society in which the dignity of all is respected, under the care of the church.

This can be criticised as feudal paternalism, but it is worlds away from post Thatcher conservatism with its laissez faire individualism with its encouragement for some to get rich at the expense of others.

The ideal of a cohesive responsible society is nearer to socialism.

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Originally posted by venbede:

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Originally posted by Penny S:

communities have responded well to deal with what has happened and keep people under cover and fed. And that has included those who Sayers couldn't have dreamed of. Not just Anglicans and Non-conformists working together.

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No doubt Sayers could imagine and knew perfectly well other sort of people.

But in Fenchurch St Paul there aren't any. The only "Roman" is dead - and Hezekiah resented tolling the bell for them.

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Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
It's probably germane to this thread to raise a question that I've given way too much thought to, and which is certainly explored in this novel due to the setting: Lord Peter Wimsey's spiritual life.

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Originally posted by Chamois:
Legally speaking there isn't a murderer. To commit murder there has to be an intention to kill. Will Thoday didn't intend to kill Deacon when he tied him up in the bell chamber, and none of the ringers intended to kill anyone when they rang their peal. So there was no murder. That's why the Superintendent can let the matter go.

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Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
In this country, we would call it reckless endangerment, or perhaps manslaughter.

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Originally posted by Athrawes:
Miss Climpson is a delight, and is the first person I think of when considering Voice. She is so real, I can hear her speaking. Especially in the letters to Wimsey on spiritualism in Have His Carcass!

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Originally posted by BroJames:

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Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
In this country, we would call it reckless endangerment, or perhaps manslaughter.

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I think given the rarity of death by sound alone, there would be a good argument that not only did the accused not foresee the consequences, but that he could not reasonably be expected to have foreseen the consequences.

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My interpretation of the book was that Will Thoday never intended Deacon to be in the bell chamber during the peal - he meant to get him away by boat but was unable to because of being taken ill. I thought he was so desperate to get to the church over new year while he was ill because he knew Deacon was in danger (from cold and hunger if not from the bells). So I think Will is less culpable because it was only being taken ill that prevented him from getting Deacon out of that bell tower.
 

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Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
He seems to have felt very guilty about it, however.
 

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Posted by Eirenist (# 13343) on :
 
Naturally he did - he had caused someone else's death. Deacon, of course, wouldn't have given it a second thought.
 

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Posted by georgiaboy (# 11294) on :
 
On the subject of Lord Peter's faith, or lack thereof, this, from Sayers' The Mind of the Maker.' p. 105
In chapter 9 'The Love of the Creature' she records this conversation (abbrev'd) with a reader;
Reader: 'I am sure Lord Peter will end up as a convinced Christian.'
Sayers: 'From what I know of him, nothing is more unlikely.'
R: 'But he's far too intelligent and far too nice, not to be a Christian.'
S: Peter is a Whig gentleman, born a little out of his time, and doubtful whether any claim to possess a soul is not a rather vulgar piece of presumption.'

This sounds to me agnostic, rather than atheist. Plus his interactions with various clergy scattered throughout the canon suggest familiarity perhaps ahead of the run-of-the-mill Anglican. Certainly he knows about Puseyites and Kensitites, he is able to identify a gospel verse from its citation on a funeral wreath, he refuses to let his wedding become a society show event, he reminisces about singing in the parish choir, and lots of other incidental mentions.
Pre-WW1 many English took their church-going rather perfunctorily, until the Oxford Movement started the pot a-boiling. During and after the Great War, some became more serious about the church, while others fell away. (See also John Betjeman's poem 'Westminster Abbey.' (I think that's the right title.)
 

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Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Also I wonder if there is not a class element in there. It would be non-U, to be too enthusiastic about religion. Lord Peter would not want to be like Bill Rumm. A member of the nobility naturally has to fulfill all the proper forms -- maintain the pew, show up at services, read the Scripture reading when up at Duke's Denver. But it would be in poor taste to show one's beliefs too blatantly.
 

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Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
The book is dominated by the bells and it ends with their names. The symbolism is ambiguous though. In one sense they are the protectors of the village. But apart from Hezekiah, most characters sense something sinister about them, notably Lord Peter in the last chapter.
 

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Posted by Athrawes (# 9594) on :
 
I assumed it was to do with them killing people, especially 'evil doers'. I don't think Hillary as worried by them, was she? But Peter would because of his uneasy conscience regarding his hobby, even if he wasn't conscious of it.

Thank you for the correction, BroJames. I realised my mistake as soon as I read your post
. I don't know what I was thinking of - I've read both novels several times.
 

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Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
As the Rev says, the bells are the representatives of God. An easy symbolism, but quite rich. They are above the community of Fenchurch St. Paul, but pervade its life. Their tolling announces, but does not control, many of their life happenings, especially in this book death. (But I remember in Busman's Honeymoon that when the newlyweds arrive at Duke's Denver the gatekeeper mentioned doing a peal for them at the local church.) They save life (the warning bells that tell the populace to flee the flood) and take it (Deacon and others) but only through the hands of men.
 

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Posted by Sandemaniac (# 12829) on :
 

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Originally posted by venbede:
The book is dominated by the bells and it ends with their names. The symbolism is ambiguous though. In one sense they are the protectors of the village. But apart from Hezekiah, most characters sense something sinister about them, notably Lord Peter in the last chapter.

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Originally posted by venbede:
Both Hugh Lawrie and Ian Carmichael played Bertie Wooster in TV series.

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Originally posted by venbede:
The book is dominated by the bells and it ends with their names. The symbolism is ambiguous though. In one sense they are the protectors of the village. But apart from Hezekiah, most characters sense something sinister about them, notably Lord Peter in the last chapter.

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Originally posted by venbede:
Both Hugh Lawrie and Ian Carmichael played Bertie Wooster in TV series.

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Interesting that Ian Carmichael played both Wooster and Wimsey (two very different characters - and I'm old enough to just about remember both series) and it was suggested up-thread that Hugh Laurie would make a good Wimsey. Carmichael does the audiobooks particularly well, I think - I listened to his reading (well dramatisation, really) of 'Unnatural Death' recently.

Perhaps there are closer parallels between Bunter and Jeeves; both not just efficient but prescient, and turning out to have unexpected traits. Or should be wait till later in the year to discuss this?
 

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Posted by Bibaculus (# 18528) on :
 
I recall reading somewhere, but I have no idea where, that the difference between Bunter and Jeeves is that Jeeves is a traditional servant. His uncle is a butler. He will marry a maid. His family have been in service for as long as Bertie's family have been noblemen. Whereas Bunter was Lord Peter's batman in the war. His family have no tradition of service.

This thread has made me think about the bells. Previously I had just assumed they were a peg on which sayer's hung a mystery. Now I can see that they are agents of God. They are a bit like the inanimate objects in MR James's stories, as agents of vengeance. The difference is the bells are divine, not diabolical.
 

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Posted by Nenya (# 16427) on :
 
One of the main things that stay with me about the book is the use of language and the descriptions, particularly of the bells. From when we first hear them at the beginning when "Softly, tremulously, high overhead in the tower, Sabaoth began to speak, and her sisters after her..." to the end when "over all, the bells tumbled and wrangled, shouting their alarm across the country" they give me goosebumps! it's also amusing the way the evidence from one witness is reported all in indirect speech, like a statement, but keeping all his idioms and expressions. And as for Bunter, always so punctilious and self-deprecating, but one step ahead of Wimsey all the time
 

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Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Yes, the Bunter-Wimsey relationship is fascinating. Not quite paternal, though Bunter is older than Lord Peter. Not quite master-man, because Bunter also does a good bit of the detective work. I particularly admire his sterling labors in Harriet arc, when he is nearly flung into the maw of matrimony in Lord Peter's service.

It interests me, how much of the work Bunter actually does. Clearly he takes care of Peter's wardrobe, shoes, hat, etc. He also seems to make meals -- tea, breakfast. He must have a room or even a couple rooms in the flat at Piccadilly. But there must be an outside worker (a charwoman?) who comes in and does the cleaning, sweeping, polishing the grates and so on. Lord Peter goes out to dine almost continually, so it is not like Bunter has to cook him three meals a day. And there are large swathes of time Peter is staying with friends or down at Dukes Denver or on travel. All the laundry must be sent out -- if washing machines were available at the time I can't imagine Bunter using one. Bunter may well tend the collars, ties, and suits, but he's not going to launder the sheets and towels.
And clearly a good deal of labor is contracted out. The coal for the fire must be delivered. The groceries likewise. Bunter does clothing shopping for Peter, selecting his ties and socks. The Dowager Duchess mentions (in Busman's Honeymoon) that he even selected the flat (and presumably furnished it) and helped Peter move into it.
 

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Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :
 
Bunter manages everything, which is a large job in itself. He pulls rabbits out of hats as his master has need. And Busman's Honeymoon has a lovely picture of him as a horse trainer/groom/owner, who has finally managed to bring the horse (Peter) up to the starting gate in prime condition with no mishaps along the way. So not so much paternal as ... what's the adjective I want? Peter is a beloved project, a living willful creature, to be sure, but not one to be trusted out on his own.
 

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Posted by Landlubber (# 11055) on :
 
Yet finally, in this book, we see the competent Bunter at a loss, regretting that he cannot assist in the bellringing (having nearly hanged himself with the rope the only time he tried).
 

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Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
He's like the coach. He's not going to be the one to get the ball over the goal line. That's the job of the team. But he's on the sidelines, helping the team to do it.
 

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Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
But that was the nature of young men about town, the debs delights, the eligible men who the debutantes would like to marry, that they ate breakfast at home and were out in the evening, either wining and dining someone, or invited to parties and dinners introducing the young ladies on the marriage mart to suitable men. During the season these men could eat out for free continuously. And we know Society mamas were hoping to ensnare Lord Peter as it is mentioned a few times.Plus there's comment about that society in Murder Must Advertise
 

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Posted by Ann (# 94) on :
 

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Originally posted by Landlubber:
Yet finally, in this book, we see the competent Bunter at a loss, regretting that he cannot assist in the bellringing (having nearly hanged himself with the rope the only time he tried).

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Originally posted by Bibaculus:
I recall reading somewhere, but I have no idea where, that the difference between Bunter and Jeeves is that Jeeves is a traditional servant. His uncle is a butler. He will marry a maid. His family have been in service for as long as Bertie's family have been noblemen. Whereas Bunter was Lord Peter's batman in the war. His family have no tradition of service.

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Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Wimsey was blond, wasn't he?
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Originally posted by georgiaboy:
Harking back to 'what Bunter does, etc' a fascinating novel I read recently is V. Sackville-West's 'The Edwardians.' (I hope I've got that right.) It's set in and around a ducal household, with a young, unmarried duke and his dowager duchess mother. There's a marvelous scene describing dinner in the servants' hall, with each maid or valet of visitors occupying the same social position as their mistress/master above stairs.

It's a very 'rich' read, but delightful.

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I wonder when Lady Thorpe passed?

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:

So Hilary will be thirtyish when WW2 breaks out. Her gigantic mansion could then come into its own -- rural isolation is highly sought after for some things. It could be dedicated to codebreakers, or top secret military research, or the training of airmen who need large flat places to do things.

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It is this which forms one of the roots of my problems with the Jill Paton Walsh books. I just do not believe Bunter, and the Bunter-Peter relationship, in those books.

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Originally posted by venbede:
<snip>Recently I read Five Red Herrings and was very disappointed. I couldn’t tell one of the five suspects from another and the solution with clipped railway tickets was far too complicated for me to follow. Any recommendations?

Come to think of it, I don’t read whodunits for the puzzle<snip>

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Originally posted by Jane R:
Brenda:

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It is this which forms one of the roots of my problems with the Jill Paton Walsh books. I just do not believe Bunter, and the Bunter-Peter relationship, in those books.

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Yes, that's one of the things I don't like about Jill Paton Walsh's continuations. She doesn't seem to have grasped the idea that Peter and Bunter can have enormous respect for each other and work well as a team *while at the same time* recognising that they are not social equals and never will be. It's just about conceivable that Bunter's son might attend the same school as Peter's (if Bunter had a son I can imagine him being bright enough to win a scholarship) but everyone would have found this rather embarrassing and not known how to deal with it.

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I’ve read Bellona Club in the past and can’t remember much about it other than it’s set in a conservative London club.

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However, not having been a member of the English aristocracy in the 1950s, I have no idea whether this blurring of class distinctions is realistic or not.

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It has been said, by myself and others, that a love-interest is only an intrusion upon a detective story. But to the characters involved, the detective-interest might well seem an irritating intrusion upon their love-story. This book deals with such a situation. It also provides some sort of answer to many kindly inquiries as to how Lord Peter and his Harriet solved their matrimonial problem. If there is but a ha'porth of detection to an intolerable deal of saccharine, let the occasion be the excuse.

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Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:


Lucy Worsley loves Sayers too.

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[of Noakes] ‘All sorts of little enterprises, h’m? Picking things up cheap on the chance of patching ’em up for resale at a profit-that sort?’
‘Rather that sort.’
‘Um. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. There’s a London tenant of mine who started twenty years ago with a few second-hand oddments in a cellar. I’ve just built him a very handsome block of flats with sunshine balconies and vita-glass and things. He’ll do very well with them. But then he’s a Jew, and knows exactly what he’s doing. I shall get my money back and so will he. He’s got the knack of making money turn over. We’ll have him to dinner one day and he’ll tell you how he did it. He started in the War, with the double handicap of a slight deformity and a German name, but before he dies he’ll be a damn’ sight richer than I am.’

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Originally posted by BroJames:
There is often a degree of caricature about Dorothy L Sayers minor characters - all of them, even the redoubtable Miss Climpson, and this applies to Jews as well. Also I suspect that she would have subscribed to a some aspects of theories of racial types which were common currency at the time. Some of her portrayal of Jews, therefore, makes uncomfortable reading in a post-holocaust age with a very different view of 'racial' distinctions between human beings. That said, I don't think she believes that a person is better or worse because of their race, and Peter doesn't hesitate, for example, in abetting his friend Freddie Arbuthnot's wooing of Rachel Levy. The issue is epitomised in Peter's description of one of his tenants in Busman's Honeymoon

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[of Noakes] ‘All sorts of little enterprises, h’m? Picking things up cheap on the chance of patching ’em up for resale at a profit-that sort?’
‘Rather that sort.’
‘Um. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. There’s a London tenant of mine who started twenty years ago with a few second-hand oddments in a cellar. I’ve just built him a very handsome block of flats with sunshine balconies and vita-glass and things. He’ll do very well with them. But then he’s a Jew, and knows exactly what he’s doing. I shall get my money back and so will he. He’s got the knack of making money turn over. We’ll have him to dinner one day and he’ll tell you how he did it. He started in the War, with the double handicap of a slight deformity and a German name, but before he dies he’ll be a damn’ sight richer than I am.’

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I wince at the stereotype of the Jew and money, but I also note that there's no sense of the social exclusion which would have been commonplace in England at that time. I don't know whether Dorothy Sayers was snobbish or not. I suspect intellectual snobbery was a more likely trap for her than social snobbery. She goes to some pains to show that Lord Peter is not in, e.g., a discussion about schools and universities in Murder Must Advertise, in his willing endorsement of middle-class Parker the policman's marriage to his sister, and in his dealings with the off-duty PC in 'The Haunted Policeman'.

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Originally posted by venbede:
One of my favourite bits is how on New Year’s Eve, Mrs Venables manages to get Lord Peter to escape her husband to have a few hours’ rest in bed before the midnight service. She has prepared a bedroom where he sleeps like a log for a few hours with a burning real fire.

I’ve never slept in a room with a real fire alight, but on a cold winter’s night after a trying drive in the cold it sounds blissful.

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Originally posted by Bibaculus:
Oh how dull this desire is to reread our 21st century values into past writers. Sayers was a snob, Augustine was a misogynist, Anselm was gay. No, they were people of their time, and if you cannot appreciate the context, thne frankly you have nothing useful to say.

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Originally posted by venbede:
Thanks to my local council, I have access online to the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography. I thought the two following quotes might be interesting:

Dorothy Sayers began life amid the bustle of Oxford, where her father was choirmaster at Christ Church, but when she was four years old Henry Sayers accepted the more remunerative living of Bluntisham-cum-Earith in the remote fen country of East Anglia, which would later provide the backdrop for one of Sayers's finest novels, The Nine Tailors (1934)

I don't know Blutisham but I'll look it up. The other quote is relevant to the snobbery question.

Sayers's novels consider the themes of individual responsibility, order versus anarchy, the spectre of consumption and waste in the modern world (Murder must Advertise), the situation of women (Unnatural Death, and all the Harriet Vane books), the devastating effects of war (The Unpleasantness at the Bellona Club and Wimsey's character generally), the meaning of work (in the characters of Wimsey, Vane, Miss Climpson, and Jack Munting), and the modern argument between science and religion (see especially The Documents in the Case). In all her fiction, she examines the implications of the class system.

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Having read some of the truly appalling stuff on race written in the 1930s (and I've not going to advertise it) it seems to me that Sayers comes out of such an analysis reasonably well.

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Originally posted by Jane R:
A sweet old lady who thinks the threat of having the 'touch of the tarbrush' in her family tree exposed so shameful that it's a reasonable motive for murder. A man who tells the woman he loves (a successful businesswoman) that if she wants to marry him she will have to give up her career.

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You might choose not to read historical fiction because you don't want to encounter historical opinions, and that's fine.

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The quote I gave above about Sayers being anti-semitic was from an article (I gave the link) arguing Allingham was a more worthwhile author because she wasn't a snob like Sayers.

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The only reason why the class system is not so obtrusive in Allingham's books is because she hardly ever mentions it! Albert Campion is the son of a duke who marries an Earl's sister - you don't get much more snobbish than that.

Oh, and what Brenda said about religion in Georgette Heyer.
 

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Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Past works stand as they are (unless George MacDonald's bowdlerizers get busy on them). More interesting is what the modern writer should do, when writing a historical work. Keep it accurately historical, preserving all the anti-Semitism, racism and sexism, thus enraging the reader? Or write it unrealistically egalitarian, pleasing the audience but kissing historical accuracy goodbye?
Over in the theater they have been wrestling with this more creatively, because you can see the race of a person on the stage without having to tinker with Shakespeare's words. A fascinating and very popular musical on Broadway now is Hamilton, about Alexander Hamilton. He himself had 'a touch of the tarbrush' which for long swathes of American history was politely ignored. He is now being played by a Hispanic actor who will probably win the Tony Award.
 

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I've been irritated by a couple of recent British TV series set in the past (though not by the Dr Who episode with a black trader in the crowd at Tyburn - I was more irritated by the castle in the background).

In the "Merlin" series, Guinevere was played black, not the only one in a multicultural Camelot. It was just about possible to swallow in a totally mucked up universe which would have been much better if they had invented their own characters instead of utterly changing relationships and plot. But Guinevere's name means white. The Saracen knight in Malory was noticed as being what he was.

In Robin Hood, Friar Tuck was black. Nobody noticed. Nobody wondered if he was a Saracen (a villainous part in St George plays later, and a word finding its way into use for anything foreign). Nobody wondered if it would wash off. Nobody asked where he had come from. It was just not possible in the period, and yet, they could have run with it with a thoughtful backstory. A slave from Outremer, escaped from his Saracen owner with the help of some friars, converted, and then coming to England with Robin. Just as likely as Morgan Freeman in the film. Who did have an explanation.

You can't rewrite the past, except to make it more like the past it really was. With evidence. Such as the woman selling stuff at Tyburn.

[ 05. February 2016, 18:36: Message edited by: Penny S ]
 

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Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
At least Jews etc. were allowed to exist, whereas anyone like me cannot.

If I do come across a limp wristed, bitchy queen, far from objecting to the stereotype, I cheer to find a possible gay man at all.
 

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Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
Sayers wasn't bad on including homosexuality either. I have wondered about Lord Peter's mannered gossipy Uncle Paul in that light; it's that sort of characterisation of the unmarried uncle that you sometimes see. You also have Harriet's girlfriends in Bohemian 20's London and I'm sure there will be coded references to gay men there too, as Sayers is writing after Wilde and the Aesthetes and Bloomsbury set.

There's a definite lesbian relationship in Unnatural Death.
 

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Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 

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Originally posted by Jane R:
The only reason why the class system is not so obtrusive in Allingham's books is because she hardly ever mentions it! Albert Campion is the son of a duke who marries an Earl's sister - you don't get much more snobbish than that.

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Originally posted by Firenze:
And of course Chesterton is unreadable now for his monomaniacal anti-Semitism.

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Originally posted by Penny S:
In Robin Hood, Friar Tuck was black. Nobody noticed. Nobody wondered if he was a Saracen (a villainous part in St George plays later, and a word finding its way into use for anything foreign). Nobody wondered if it would wash off. Nobody asked where he had come from. It was just not possible in the period, and yet, they could have run with it with a thoughtful backstory.

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Originally posted by venbede:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jane R:
The only reason why the class system is not so obtrusive in Allingham's books is because she hardly ever mentions it! Albert Campion is the son of a duke who marries an Earl's sister - you don't get much more snobbish than that.

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If he's the son of a duke he'd be Lord Albert Campion and he never uses the title. That's not snobbery.

There's as much social variety as in Sayers. Lugg v Bunter.

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Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
It's not snobbery in the Allingham books, it's inverted snobbery, and that grates equally.

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Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
My impressions of the Allingham books, and it's ages since I read one, were that Lugg's working class credentials were celebrated a little too much.

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Originally posted by venbede:

quote:

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Originally posted by Jane R:
The only reason why the class system is not so obtrusive in Allingham's books is because she hardly ever mentions it! Albert Campion is the son of a duke who marries an Earl's sister - you don't get much more snobbish than that.

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If he's the son of a duke he'd be Lord Albert Campion and he never uses the title. That's not snobbery.

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Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
It's a common trope of lazy historical fiction writers to have, for example, the heroine be a strong-willed, independent ... lass who resists the loveless marriage her family arranges for her

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Originally posted by Dafyd:
St Maurice was always depicted as being black, and had a cult which was widespread at least across the Holy Roman Empire. And one of the three kings was always shown as black (is it Melchior?)

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Originally posted by Firenze:
I think this would be better demonstrated by going on to lead a long and productive life rather than taking to your bed and going That's it I'm over (despite being young and healthy) I'll just spend the next couple of hundred pages designing my coffin and guilt tripping everyone.

Female masochist or what?

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• Punch or May Day 1829 - black footman on the carriage, young black child front left
• The Death of Major Peirson (1783) where the black character is identified as the Major's servant Pompey and taking a major part in the battle - the actual portrait of Pompey was painted from another servant known to the artist.
• The 1827 portrait of a man thought to be Ira Frederick Aldridge an actor on the London stage most famous for his role as Othello.

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Originally posted by venbede:
Not quite sure why on earth I mentioned Clarissa. Best to ignore me. Sorry.

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Besides, there is an instance in romance.
John of Rampayne, an excellent juggler and minstrel, undertook to effect the escape of one Audulf de Bracy, by presenting himself in disguise at the court of the king, where he was confined. For this purpose, "he stained his hair and his whole body entirely as black as jet, so that nothing was white but his teeth" and succeeded in imposing himself on the king, as an ethiopian minstrel. He effected, by stratagem, the escape of the prisoner. Negroes, therefore, must have been known in England in the dark ages. (dissertation on Romance and Mistrelsy, prefixed to Ritson's Ancient Metrical Romances, p clxxxvii)

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Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
The Elizabeth George Inspector Lynley and the Martha Grimes Richard Jury and Melrose Plant books remind me of Allingham - they all get their milieus slightly off which makes their characters, however well drawn, ring false.

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If he's the son of a duke he'd be Lord Albert Campion and he never uses the title. That's not snobbery.

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Originally posted by Bibaculus:
While we are on anachronisms in historical whodunnits, does anyone remember the Cadfael novels, wildly popular in the 80s, sunk without trace now?

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It's this feature that is so opaque to Americans. I forget where it was on SoF where I mentioned Anthony Trollope visiting the US in the 1850s, and being annoyed by how people just weren't deferential. They acted like they were as good as he was, even if they were carrying his baggage. And that's another little fun point in Sayers, when she rags on Americans. Remember in Whose Body? when the rich American is accidentally persuaded to contribute to the restoration of a church?

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I remember reading part of Frances Trollope's Domestic Manners of the Americans where she was dismayed by the inability to get good help. Not deferential and those American girls would go to work long enough to earn the money for a nice, new outfit, then put in their notice. Poor Frances!
 

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
Bully for the Americans! Though I suspect there are currently Americans who expect deference. Such as a certain golfing enthusiast who expects Scots to grovel, and accede to his whims.
 

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Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
If only Mrs Trollope had bought a couple of slaves she could have had the same deference as white Americans expected.
 

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Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
It shows you how very much things have changed, from then to now. I am sure that even English aristocrats no longer expect deference from everyone around them. Certainly they all know that (unless they are the royals) they will get none from Americans. Do they get deference from the ordinary Englishman on the street?
 

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Posted by Bibaculus (# 18528) on :
 
I find Americans much more deferential than the surly Brits, certainly those in service occupations - on planes, in bars, etc. And not just those who are expecting a tip.
 

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I haven't met any, so am not sure what aristos would get from me. It would depend how much they would expect. In an inverse sort of way.

Probably the most likely person was an elderly man sitting at a table for 2 in a 1st class carriage on a northbound train when I was on my way to OU summer school. It was a carriage which allowed oiks to travel if the rest of the train was full by the payment of a nominal upgrade. No-one had chosen to occupy the seat opposite him, possibly misled by his rather scruffy appearance, but I noticed his beautifully polished quality leather footwear. I had heard this was how you could recognise the real toffs.

(Opposite us sat a man who looked vaguely familiar, with his feet up on the seat opposite, who sent his wife off to get the coffee, and began to gather a stream of admirers who praised his support for the miners. Unlike the elderly gentleman and me, he did not pay the nominal upgrade, but was a bona-fide 1st class passenger. Arthur Scargill, for it was he, the head of the NUM and fierce opponent of Mrs T, got off at Doncaster, with the man behind him, younger, and of military officer bearing, leaving as well - I suspected a spook.)

Neither of them had my deference, but AS garnered my contempt, for travelling 1st class as a trades union man, and putting his feet up, with his less noble shoes on, where others would sit.

There has been some puzzlement this last week, from some, as to why on earth one James Bingham wanted to be able to inherit his missing father's title and become Lord Lucan, a reminder that some of these people do things completely differently, in the process leaving the son of the murder victim with justice unsatisfied because of the way they stuck together around the man.

Deference hooey.

[ 09. February 2016, 13:14: Message edited by: Penny S ]
 

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Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
I'm reading London Fog, by Christine Corton, a kind of literary analysis. She discusses the Stevenson novel Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, and points out how all of Dr. Jekyll's associates hang together. They do not tell the police (who are not Of Us) about Mr. Hyde, even when Mr. Hyde starts killing people. In other words, pulling together to protect the social group is more important than any other consideration. The Lord Lucan business fits right into this.
I don't think we do this in the US, not any more. There was a day when politicians or doctors would cover for each other, and you could quietly chase skirts or do drugs without much comeback.
 

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Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
I'm not so sure about that, Brenda. Maybe it's not so common for people to connive at cover-ups for members of the same class or profession, but a lot of people would still be prepared to lie (at the very least) to protect other members of their family or a close friend.
 

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Posted by Curiosity killed ... (# 11770) on :
 
Well, I reckon that closing of ranks is pretty universal. Working with London teenagers with gang connections I get told that "snitches get stitches" pretty regularly.
 

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Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :
 
I think there's a difference between the closing of the ranks due to the expectation of harm, and that due to fellow feeling, or whatever drove the Lucan buddies. It's not only keeping quiet, in the latter case, but also actively aiding and abetting as accomplices after the act, without threat. (What threat? Aspinall's tigers?)
 

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Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
[loud screech of tires as topic is wrenched back on track] You can see Lord Peter doing this. In Bellona Club when the perp is allowed to take a revolver into the library, to the great distress of the club members. Even in Murder Must Advertise, when we men and advertising jocks must hang together, dash it. This is not presented as a miscarriage of justice. Sayers clearly feels, and intends us to feel, that it is the right thing to do.
 

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Posted by Bibaculus (# 18528) on :
 
Of course it is the right thing for chaps to stick by chaps. I said as much at my Masonic dinner just last night.

Seriously, that is part of the culture of the world in which Sayers was writing. We can now see how it led to the most dreadful things being hushed up (not least in the church), but it would have been seen as common decency in the 30s.

I have heard it suggested that if one wants to understand a previous era's mores one should not read the finest literature from that period, but the popular (and often forgotten) stuff. Like detective stories. Great literature is great literature because it is, in some measure, timeless. The popular stuff is always very much of its time.
 

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Posted by Eirenist (# 13343) on :
 
The difference between Lord Peter's world and that of Lord Lucan (if we believe that the latter was not, in fact, presented by his peers with a bottle of whisky and a revolver), is that the perps in 'Murder' and 'Bellona' both received what would have been accepted at the time as their just deserts. Lucan, it is assumed, and the ecclesiastical transgressors, did not.
 

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Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :
 
Yes, in Lord Peter's case, it's not "sticking by them" to cover up the crime as such; it's allowing them to receive what they would have had coming to them anyway under the justice system (the death penalty), but without the embarrassment of a public trial. In MMA, it's quite openly stated that this is done to spare the murderer's family the shame of a trial; Lord Peter allows the guilty man to walk into a trap and be murdered (and he agrees to it) rather than be tried for the murder he committed. In Unpleasantness it may be more a case of allowing the killer to take the dignified route out for his own sake, but both killers definitely end up dead.
 

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Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
But you see what this implies. "As long as we know that justice was done, nobody else needs to." There is a value to public trial, and justice being seen to be done. There is the deterrent value, of course. It is also good to know that the societal systems are working properly; that you don't get to murder with impunity. But all of this is lost if you quietly administer justice in the library of the Bellona Club.
 

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Posted by Eirenist (# 13343) on :
 
Again, you are reading our sensibilities back into a preceding generation. Penberthy dies by his own hand to spare Anne Dorland, a 'nice girl', from the embarrassment of having to give evidence in open court about their relationship. Readers of the time would have viewed his action as doing the decent, gentlemanly thing.
 

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Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
I've just received Murder must advertise and would appreciate no spoilers.
 

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Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :
 
Oh, sorry about my previous comments on MMA. I had assumed that the discussion had gotten wide-ranging enough about Sayers' work that there was no concern about spoilers for other books, but should have realized not everyone would have read the two books whose endings I more or less gave away. Will refrain from naming names from specific novels in future.

I do see Brenda Clough's point though and I don't think it's entirely a matter of reading our present-day prejudices back into an older text. I think a lot of readers today still appreciate the "easy way out" that Lord Peter offers at least two of his murderers, and some people at that time would have been indignant that justice was not being done. I don't think this is so much a matter of the values of different eras being different, as it is a difference between what's right in the sense of public justice, and what might seem to be right on the level of more private morality.

In allowing murderers to either commit suicide or be murdered rather than stand trial for their crimes, Lord Peter is fulfilling the letter of the law but also upholding a more private sense of morality -- in this case sparing other people connected with the case the anguish and shame of that a trial would bring. But I think anyone, then or now, could see that to do that on a regular basis would not be serving the cause of justice at all. It's like vigilante justice, except that he doesn't kill murderers himself, just allows them to die.
 

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Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :
 
Also, there is the artistic question. There is no denying that a jury trial, conviction, and execution or jail sentence would take a long long time, many pages to cover. More satisfying to the reader to have a solution permanent, quick, and easy. I note that the only time the thing ever goes through to the bitter end is in Busman's Honeymoon,where Sayers is able to use the entire long-drawn-out process for character development. It is a considerable skill, to know what not to tell.
 

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Posted by Trudy Scrumptious (# 5647) on :
 
Looking back through all the LPW novels, I can only think of three or possibly four where a murderer is arrested and stands trial for murder, and in at least two of those the book ends before we find out the outcome of the case, though we presume with Lord Peter having provided the evidence, the guilty party will be found guilty. The exception is, as you mentioned, Busman's Honeymoon where it is important for character development and theme that the case is followed through to the end. In all the others I can think of, the murderer conveniently dies before trial or it turns out not to have been a murder after all.
 

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Posted by venbede (# 16669) on :
 
On page 2 of MMA, a character says "Bredon" looks like Bertie Wooster.

So Sayers was deliberately making the comparison.

PS. Surely it is standard to the genre of the whodunit to end once the murderer is identified. I can't think of a single example which wastes time on the trial.
 

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Posted by Jane R (# 331) on :
 
venbede:

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Surely it is standard to the genre of the whodunit to end once the murderer is identified. I can't think of a single example which wastes time on the trial.

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Originally posted by Net Spinster:
I can remember one mystery, I think an Agatha Christie short story, where the trial takes place, the accused is found innocent after stunning discovery of new evidence, but the plot twist at the end is he was in fact completely guilty.

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
In the classic structure (think Sherlock Holmes) the detective does the brilliant detecting stuff and leaves all the tedium of collecting evidence, assembling the witnesses, and creating an airtight legal case, to the lower-level munchkins. Lord Peter does this too -- someplace in MMA he tells Charles Parker to go and find all the proof, now that Lord Peter has identified the crook. We readers don't get to see all the boring stuff, but only the high points, and we are cool with that.

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After which I made my sodden way to the Moulin d'Or, had two drinks, and a Hamburger Steak and chummed up in George's sanctum with two bobbies. I'd seen them come in and thought that George must have been infringing the food laws; but it turned out that one of the diners had bought a farm somewhere, and was showing his friend a map of the place over dinner; whereupon a woman at the next table had taken it into her head that they were Fifth-columnists discussing war maps and had rushed out and fetched the police. They were friendly cops and rather apologised for having come to investigate the mare's nest, but it was their duty to do so. I replied that no doubt 999 of these scares were all nonsense to attract attention, but the thousandth time there might be something in it, and we might find a traitor clever enough to do the bluff of discussing his plans openly in a public restaurant. They said eagerly that that was just it, madam, and we became very chummy, and debated how many people could be conveniently knocked on the head or thrown off bridges in the black-out with complete impunity, and how greatly war-conditions must add to the work and worries of the police force. By this time, the police had had their drinks (at poor George's expense, I suppose) and I feared my last bus had gone. So I departed under police escort, hoping for a taxi. They said that, even if there was one, they were unfortunately not allowed to call taxis for the public. I replied they need only pretend they had arrested me and were hauling me off to custody, and we made merry over this till, happily, the last bus arrived after all and I was carried off "in lowly pomp" as the hymn puts it. I almost think I shall be sorry when "war-conditions" are over; one gets so much simple fun.

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Originally posted by Bibaculus:
She also wrote a book, I discover, called 'Are Women Human?', which seems to have been a foray into arguing for gender equality. I suspect it would be well worth reading.

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

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Originally posted by Bibaculus:
She also wrote a book, I discover, called 'Are Women Human?', which seems to have been a foray into arguing for gender equality. I suspect it would be well worth reading.

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Not a book but an essay, and a masterly one full of snark. It reminds me of Erin.

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Originally posted by Bibaculus:
She also wrote a book, I discover, called 'Are Women Human?', which seems to have been a foray into arguing for gender equality. I suspect it would be well worth reading.

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
...A discussion of her letters, which were published in 2 vols.

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