Ship of Fools: What's Wrong With This Story?

Thread: What's Wrong With This Story? Board: Kerygmania / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

Jacob and Esau

Don't we assume the righteous will be blessed?

Jacob is a trickster. Has been all his life. Even when he was born he was trying to usurp his brother.

When Isaac is old, Jacob tricks his dad into giving him the blessing that should have gone to Esau.

And what happens?

Does the Trickster get what should be coming to him?

No! God blesses him!

What gives?

Posted by Golden Key (# 1468) on :

God loves them both, and can use bad stuff to bring about good?

I think maybe the way my childhood church explained it was that Esau, however carelessly and thoughtlessly and tiredly, sold his birthright. And that was forbidden--whether by God or culture, I'm not sure.

I don't remember what happened with Esau after he realized what he'd done. IIRC, didn't he and Jacob have different moms, who each fought to get her son a better deal? Wasn't Jacob's trick his mom's idea? Isaac didn't/wouldn't restore Esau's birthright.

Lots and lots of family messes in the Bible.
[Eek!]

Posted by Helen-Eva (# 15025) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
IIRC, didn't he and Jacob have different moms, who each fought to get her son a better deal? Wasn't Jacob's trick his mom's idea? Isaac didn't/wouldn't restore Esau's birthright.

Lots and lots of family messes in the Bible.

On the different mothers I think you're thinking of Isaac and Ishmael. Jacob and Esau were twins I think but for some reason their mother preferred Jacob which has always seemed very mean to me. Poor old Esau - anyone can make ONE stupid mistake.

Posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider (# 76) on :

Blame God: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated".

Posted by HCH (# 14313) on :

In practice, the question of who got Isaac's blessing seems to have had little consequence. Jacob was sent off to find Laban and marry one of Laban's daughters (he overdid this), and he was gone many years. Esau apparently ended up with the family estate. When Jacob returns, he and his family are essentially nomads, and there is a real question as to whether Esau will welcome him with a hug (as he in fact did) or with a sword. Esau seems to have behaved well but Jacob is nonetheless praised. It is reasonable to find some of this inconsistent.

Posted by cliffdweller (# 13338) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
God loves them both, and can use bad stuff to bring about good?

I think maybe the way my childhood church explained it was that Esau, however carelessly and thoughtlessly and tiredly, sold his birthright. And that was forbidden--whether by God or culture, I'm not sure.

Yeah, not really a satisfying answer, but many of our pat answers aren't.

I see it as one of many "overturnings" in the OT-- this one, an overturning of the dominant primogeniture-- the notion that the oldest son gets it all. It's not that Jacob is more deserving than Esau-- he isn't. It's more like a foreshadowing of the prodigal son-- the way God chooses us and pursues us and blesses us even when we don't deserve it.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Blame God: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated".

Blame Jacob for being tricksy, and feel either sorry for Esau for being tricked, or blame him for being a fool. God just watched. Funny how in the OT people misbehave and then bring God in to explain away misbehaviour. There are good and bad examples in bible. I'd say that putting Jacob's hip out of joint looks like a little bit of just desserts. Not quite enough for what he did, but a start.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

Of course, Jewish traditions will say that Esau was not without sin as it were.

Jewish commentaries have shed a negative view on Esau because of his rivalry with Jacob. The Midrash says that during Rebekah's pregnancy whenever she would pass a house of Torah study, Jacob would struggle to come out; whenever she would pass a house of idolatry, Esau would agitate to come out.

He is considered to be a rebellious son who kept a double life until he was 15, when he sold his birthright to Jacob. According to the Talmud, the sale of the birthright took place immediately after Abraham died. The Talmudic dating would give both Esau and Jacob an age of 15 at the time. The lentils Jacob was cooking were meant for his father Isaac, because lentils are the traditional mourner's meal for Jews. On that day before returning, in a rage over the death of Abraham, Esau committed five sins; he raped a betrothed young woman, he committed murder (Nimrod), he denied God, he denied the resurrection of the dead, and he spurned his birthright.

According to Rashi, Isaac, when blessing Jacob instead of Esau, smelled the heavenly scent of Gan Eden (Paradise) when Jacob entered his room and, in contrast, perceived Gehenna opening beneath Esau when the latter entered the room, showing him that he had been deceived all along by Esau's show of piety.

(From Wikipedia)

Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :

ISTM most of the comments here are misconceived, apart from "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated", quoted by Liberal Backslider. One surely cannot apply Western suburban Sunday School ethics and morality to the concept of virtue or righteousness etc. as currently understood to the cultures under consideration. Machiavelli, on the other hand, would have counted Jacob as virtuous in its renaissance meaning: Jacob was smart and successful, best suited to promote the interests of his tribe.

More generally, it might be pointed out that the bible seems to teach that a blessing is not a reward for acts of righteousness but a free gift of God.

Posted by Garasu (# 17152) on :

Probably just me, but I'm reminded of the Trick at Mecone...

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

I wonder if the producer of this commerical got his/her idea from the story of Jacob.

Posted by LutheranChik (# 9826) on :

I think in addition to the recurring biblical theme of God siding with the underdogs of the world, there's also the message that,when one is in a disempowered out group, trickery is a survival skill -- a way to even the odds.

Posted by Kwesi (# 10274) on :

..........perhaps the theme, biblical and otherwise, is that behind every successful man there is a woman!

Posted by Sarah G (# 11669) on :

Firstly, Esau had sold his birthright in exchange for a takeaway back in Genesis 25. This tells us that being the inheritor of the earth-shattering promise to Abraham wasn't a thing for him. Best he doesn't do it, then.

Secondly, he had gone out and married Hittite wives. This was a clear no-no, and quite possibly alone made him totally unsuitable for taking the Covenant-bearer baton.

Thirdly, God seems to be sitting this one out, in terms of doing things or declaring rights and wrongs. The events happened as God said they would- “the older will serve the younger” (Gen 25:23).

I know we love to use the OT mostly as a source of good sound moral lessons, but that's not primarily what it's about. It's a record of God's relationship with humanity, and the Jewish nation in particular. As such, I suggest that the moral messages of Gen 27/28 are distinctly tangential to the primary purpose of the passage, of keeping The Story moving in the right direction.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

quote:
I know we love to use the OT mostly as a source of good sound moral lessons, but that's not primarily what it's about. It's a record of God's relationship with humanity, and the Jewish nation in particular. As such, I suggest that the moral messages of Gen 27/28 are distinctly tangential to the primary purpose of the passage, of keeping The Story moving in the right direction.

Quite right.

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