|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Not so meek and mild...
|
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
|
Posted
Luke 1: 26-56
Where in this story do you see a meek and mild woman? Certainly not in the magnificat! Maybe we should reconsider how we view Mary.
How do you see her?
For your consideration: No More Lying About Mary
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
|
Posted
I have never seen Mary as meek and mild.
Moo
--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
In a couple of Andrew Greeley's novels (one is "Angel Fire"), characters refer to Mary in terms such as "smart, sassy, and tough--because God knows she had to be".
If I happen to come across one of the books here, I'll see if I can find direct quotes. Couldn't find the one I wanted online.
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Luke 1: 26-56
Where in this story do you see a meek and mild woman? Certainly not in the magnificat! Maybe we should reconsider how we view Mary.
How do you see her?
For your consideration: No More Lying About Mary
The author says that the traditional view of Mary is that she is meek and mild - but does not set out anything in which such a conclusion is reached. Her being meek and mild is not the traditional teaching about her.
--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
|
Posted
Yes, that's the first time I've come across "meek and mild" for Mary. The only time I've heard that phrase used is in the children's hymn, and it's about Jesus. (Also nonsense of course, but that's by the way).
--------------------
Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
|
Posted
Yes and “Mary was that mother mild, Jesus Christ her little child”.
I have two thoughts on the subject, first that both mild and meek have changed their meaning and connotative sense somewhat over the centuries, though I don’t have the resources at hand or the time to verify that. Secondly, I suspect that the picture of meek and mild comes both from Mary’s response to the angel’s message, and from the generation of Mary as one who was particularly merciful towards the sinful.
The epithets survive, even though the context that gave rise to them has significantly changed, and their meaning shifted.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
|
Posted
That's probably helpful for context - those are traditional carols. Apart from "Once in Royal" which I assume is continuing the theme. They are an endless source of folk religion which may or may not align with the church's teaching.
--------------------
Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
They [carols] are an endless source of folk religion which may or may not align with the church's teaching.
An excellent point, Honest Ron Bacardi.So many diverse things enter into our formation as Christians.
Perhaps such notions about Mary are an extension of how she has been portrayed by the Church as a model of perfect obedience to God. How do we perceive the quality of obedience in the great figures in Scripture?
When it comes to Mary, IMO, obedience gets all mixed up in notions of female submissiveness, hence the "meek and mild" and "Gentle Mary" tropes. The Bible is full of men who said "Yes" to God (often after much dithering) and yet Moses, Samuel, etc. are not portrayed as "meek and mild" but rather as heroes.
I expect many of you are familiar with the poem "Annunciation" by Denise Levertov, in which the poet speaks of Mary's thoughtfulness and courage in accepting this responsibility.
quote:
But we are told of meek obedience. No one mentions
courage.
The engendering Spirit
did not enter without consent.
God waited.
She was free
to accept or to refuse, choice
integral to humanness.
Luke's narrative tells us that Mary asked the angel, "How can this be?" We can take it on the surface that she was just perplexed by the biological aspect of it, or we can infer that she was mulling over all the implications - in Levertov's words, "the astounding ministry she was offered." We sell Mary short if we don't acknowledge her courage, her strength of character.
[ 11. December 2017, 16:56: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
--------------------
Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
|
Posted
quote:
he Bible is full of men who said "Yes" to God (often after much dithering) and yet Moses, Samuel, etc. are not portrayed as "meek and mild" but rather as heroes.
Actually, Numbers 12:3 reads (Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.) in the KJV
Other translations say he was a humble man.
quote:
I have two thoughts on the subject, first that both mild and meek have changed their meaning and connotative sense somewhat over the centuries, though I don’t have the resources at hand or the time to verify that
Wicktonary gives an interesting etymology of "meek"
From Middle English meek, meke, meoc, a borrowing from Old Norse mjúkr (“soft; meek”), from Proto-Germanic *meukaz, *mūkaz (“soft; supple”), from Proto-Indo-European *mewg-, *mewk- (“slick, slippery; to slip”). Cognate with Swedish and Norwegian Nynorsk mjuk (“soft”), and Danish myg (“supple”), Dutch muik (“soft, overripe”), dialectal German mauch (“dry and decayed, rotten”), Mauche (“malanders”). Compare also Old English smūgan (“to slide, slip”), Welsh mwyth (“soft, weak”), Latin ēmungō (“to blow one's nose”), Tocharian A muk- (“to let go, give up”), Lithuanian mùkti (“to slip away from”), Old Church Slavonic мъчати (mŭčati, “to chase”), Ancient Greek μύσσομαι (mússomai, “to blow the nose”), Sanskrit मुञ्चति (muñcati, “to release, let loose”).
In other words, previous connotations imply meekness was way soft, oven overripe.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
|
Posted
Etymology is not always a sound guide to meaning - especially not to the connotative aspects of meaning. The 1971 Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary has this as the meaning of meek quote:
1. a Gentle, Courteous, kind. Of a superior: merciful, compassionate, indulgent Obs.*
(* Obsolete.)
The first (medieval) citations under this now obsolete meaning show, amongst others, the word used to describe how Mary and Joseph were to each other, and from Barbour's poem about Robert the Bruce, to describe how that hero was when he was 'blyth' (sic) and in company.
The second branch of this main usage (1b) is to describe a Christian virtue, and defined as meaning "free from haughtiness, and self will: piously humble and submissive."
The third branch is defined simply as meaning quote:
Submissive, humble… In unfavourable sense: inclined to submit tamely to oppression or injury, easily 'put upon'; now often in a tone of ironical commendation, with allusions to [meaning] 1b
I think the current general understanding of 'meek' tends to be in this third sense - whereas I suspect it first attached to Mary in the first sense.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
This says it all for me:
The Wedding at Cana
When the wine ran out, Jesus’ mother said to Him, “They have no more wine.”
“Woman, why does this concern us?” Jesus replied. “My hour has not yet come.”
His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever He tells you.”
Jesus' patriarchal exasperation. As empty as the silence before her last word.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
