Ship of Fools: Dealing with the aftermath.

Thread: Dealing with the aftermath. Board: Purgatory / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by cattyish (# 7829) on :

As this tragic medical disaster illustrates, it is not over even when someone has died. Since I work with people, I am interested to know what the best possible response should be when something has gone wrong.

The family in this case had been, to their understanding, kept in the dark until well after a surgical error occurred. Reading the account of what happened in this newspaper article I cannot presume to understand the timeline, but would it have been better for someone to call the family during the procedure and tell them that something had gone wrong? Who should call? The surgeon would still be involved in the operation.

I found it interesting that the family felt belittled partly because their words were written down in local dialect at a meeting with professionals. Would changing their words into conventional English be better?

Cattyish, there but for the grace of God...

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

As a matter of note (I've lived on Tyneside for longer than I haven't, now), yes many people do speak with an accent, and yes, they do use dialect words liberally. Both can make it difficult for those who aren't used to them.

Police transcripts (recorded from the taped interview) are done in the vernacular, and Geordie does have a regularised spelling. However, I think the affront here is that the family, in their meetings with hospital officials, would have been using their non-vernacular vocabulary to the fore. To then see their words repeated back to them in the vernacular would make them feel like they were written off as if they were a bunch of chavs from the estate, and their concerns (entirely legitimate - the hospital did, in fact, kill this woman) were of no consequence.

It's also one of my local hospitals, a centre of excellence, and is now front page news for entirely avoidable reasons.

Posted by Erroneous Monk (# 10858) on :

I know it's 13 minutes, but everyone interested in "human error", especially in the medical field, should watch Just a Routine Operation

Martin Bromiley is an amazing man.

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

I consider myself to be a competent mechanic. The other day I replaced a light that had been burned out on my own car. Last night I was following my wife who was driving the car. I noticed the light I thought I had replaced was still not functioning. I kept reviewing what I did in my mind, and I realized I replaced the wrong light.

Three months ago, I had knee surgery. Everything has gone well with that, but before surgery, the surgeon came in and marked the knee he was going to work on and even initialed it. Obviously, he did not want to make the same mistake I did.

Every time there is invasive surgery, there is always the risk something can go wrong. That is why, when you sign the release for surgery, the physician is obliged to let you know what is going to be done and the risks associated with it.

It is most unfortunate that a heart valve was inserted the wrong way and the family has suffered from it because grandmother died.

Studies have shown, though, if the medical profession immediately admits their mistake, there is more understanding and acceptance. Who should have done it? That has to be determined by the professionals themselves.

I can see why the police may release a transcript of any conversation with someone in the vernacular of that person. Something may have been lost if the police tried to clean it up into proper English. The same happens in courtroom settings. It is not the recorder's job to translate what was being said because what we would be getting would be the recorder's interpretation of the conversation.

If this goes to court, the courts would throw out any interpretation of a conversation because it is a secondary source, not a primary transcript.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

I know of women who have gone in for a mastectomy, who very carefully wrote on the -other- boob with a sharpie, NOT THIS ONE.

Posted by no prophet's flag is set so... (# 15560) on :

The aftermath is always lawyers and suing. I have a very cynical view of it all. Been sued twice (I won both, hadn't done anything wrong). The lawyers routinely list anyone and everyone involved in any way. Those who haven't malpractice insurance or are covered by the institution's insurance are probably dropped from the lawsuit after a year or two. These things take a long time to resolve, usually with an agreement to not disclose the details and a sum of money of undisclosed amount paid.

Staff cannot admit to anything or risk that the insurance will be void. Staff tend to have many sleepless nights, other psychological symptoms, and eventually understand that their role is to stand against the "risk", which I understand as insurance-speak for costs and damage amounts, as well as fault finding. Lawsuits are usually accompanied by reports to licensing authorities who prosecute against the professionals like in a criminal court. Further pushing staff toward the adversarial stance.

Families? They are bystanders to lawyers and insurance people argumentation. The lawyers here typically charge about 30-35% of the amount settled, often with their expenses added in. The families are so screwed with these things.

Practitioners even who've done nothing wrong routinely abandon areas of practice to avoid any further hassle. I speak from experience.

Posted by Beautiful Dreamer (# 10880) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
As a matter of note (I've lived on Tyneside for longer than I haven't, now), yes many people do speak with an accent, and yes, they do use dialect words liberally. Both can make it difficult for those who aren't used to them.

Police transcripts (recorded from the taped interview) are done in the vernacular, and Geordie does have a regularised spelling. However, I think the affront here is that the family, in their meetings with hospital officials, would have been using their non-vernacular vocabulary to the fore. To then see their words repeated back to them in the vernacular would make them feel like they were written off as if they were a bunch of chavs from the estate, and their concerns (entirely legitimate - the hospital did, in fact, kill this woman) were of no consequence.

I can completely relate. I don't know about Geordie, but I know that the Southern US accent (and its many, many variations) is made fun of a lot...it's usually done in good-natured jest-the Jeff Foxworthy "You Might Be A Redneck If...", etc-but it's not uncommon for someone from another part of the country to hear a thick Southern accent and assume that person isn't very intelligent. We can be pretty hard to understand too, but if you (generic "you") respect someone enough to care about what they're saying, you'll make an effort or at least not be blatantly dismissive the way it seems to have been done here. That's how the family saw it, anyway. Even if it wasn't intended as an insult, there really isn't any reason to post things in a dialect like that.

[ 08. March 2017, 00:43: Message edited by: Beautiful Dreamer ]

Posted by Leorning Cniht (# 17564) on :

quote:
Originally posted by cattyish:

I found it interesting that the family felt belittled partly because their words were written down in local dialect at a meeting with professionals.

A transcription must be the words as spoken. If someone uses dialect words, you record them - you don't translate to standard English on the fly. You also record words, not accents. If someone is speaking standard English in a regional accent, you record the standard spellings of the words they use, not your attempt to reproduce the sounds they make.

If you are merely taking notes on who said what, that's not a transcription, and I'd expect the notes to be written up in standard English, in a formal register.

Posted by Lyda*Rose (# 4544) on :

[tangent]Hey, Beautiful Dreamer, good to see you here! I hope you are doing well.[untangent] [Smile]

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

I agree with Leorning Cniht, dialect words should be recorded, but not a phonetic representation of dialect. So, in this part of Scotland, "peely-wally" should be transcribed as "peely-wally" but "Fit's wrang wi' my mither?" should be transcribed "What's wrong with my mother?"

I'd be interested to know how the Geordie in the OP was transcribed. Was it just words, or accent too? Also, the surgeon Asif Raza Shah, who was registered by the General Council in 2012, probably speaks English with an accent. If the Geordie accent was transcribed, was his accent also transcribed? I will put good money on it that an accented doctor (including an accented Geordie doctor) wouldn't have their accent transcribed.

(peely-wally - describes someone who has no specific symptoms such as vomitting, spots or fever, but who is clearly unwell; listless, pale, lacking appetite. It can also describe a slow recovery "the antibiotics have cleared the chest infection, but she's still peely-wally").

Posted by Doc Tor (# 9748) on :

Most people who have strong accents have learned (consciously or otherwise) to speak 'up' to officialdom. And my kids (Tyneside born and bred) talk differently to their friends than what they use at home and elsewhere.

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

Yes, but it can work the other way too. When I was pregnant first time round I was working as a lawyer and went to ante natal appointments straight from work, dressed business smart. Second time round I was at home with a toddler, and dressed in clothes that didn't need to be ironed. First time round I was called Mrs Quine and e.g. asked for a mid stream urine sample, second time round I was called by my first name and asked to do a wee wee in a pot. The care was excellent both times, but second time round I sometimes had to ask for clarification, because medical staff were using wooly language. On the plus side, people generally were chattier and warmer second time round.

Posted by lowlands_boy (# 12497) on :

Dr Phil Hammond has written lots about this. The simple answer is full and frank disclosure, with appropriate compensation. That provides the most closure possible for those unfortunately left behind.

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