Ship of Fools: Siblings, Twins and Faith

Thread: Siblings, Twins and Faith Board: Purgatory / Ship of Fools.

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Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

A reference to twins on the Home Schooling thread got me thinking about this.

I have always been intrigued in the evangelical world at the way in which kids from the same family can respond so differently to an upbringing - sometimes quite intense - of church, gospel meetings, Sunday school, family devotions, etc.

Some "catch" it and go on seamlessly as evangelical Christians themselves, others have a crisis experience in which they accept or reject it (and sometimes agonise over their decision for the rest of their lives), and in the case of others the indoctrination (for want of a better word) never "takes' or penetrates, and they grow up as cheerful and relaxed pagans.

I suspect that a similar variety of responses within the same family can occur within Roman Catholicism.

One possibility is that it has something to do with position in the family.

I have noticed a tendency for first-borns (stereotypically conscientious and conforming) to stick with their childhood faith, and for youngest siblings (stereotypically more laid back) to remain insouciantly resistant to, or oblivious of, the same early religious training.

Twins have been used as guinea pigs for studies of everything from health, IQ and same sex attractin, to ESP, but I have never heard of a study of religious predilections using twins, despite the speculation some years ago about the existence of a "religious gene".

Any twins, or parents of twins, care to comment?

Any theories, anecdotal or research-based, about siblings in general or twins in particular, and proneness to religious commitment?

Posted by Gramps49 (# 16378) on :

Not a twin nor a parent of twins, but I am reminded of an old saying "You cannot step in the same stream twice." Thus, it is quite possible for a set of twins to react to the same environment in different ways.

Posted by Kaplan Corday (# 16119) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Not a twin nor a parent of twins, but I am reminded of an old saying "You cannot step in the same stream twice." Thus, it is quite possible for a set of twins to react to the same environment in different ways.

To which someone replied, "You cannot step in the same stream once".

Yes, of course individuals can respond differently to the same environment.

But is there a general pattern of responses?

If so, what are the possible reasons, and if not, what are the possible reasons?

Posted by Hilda of Whitby (# 7341) on :

My three siblings and I were brought up in the Episcopal church. I'm the youngest.

Eldest--she married a man in the Assemblies of God church; she converted and is still a member.

Second--he became a dedicated yoga student, joined the Self-Realization Fellowship and was a member until his death.

Third--he converted to Roman Catholicism at age 18 and remains a staunch RC.

Me--after decades in the wilderness trying and rejecting numerous spiritual paths, I returned to the Episcopal church and am quite glad to be there.

I think there is a lot more to staying with or leaving one's original religion or denomination than birth order. Certainly that was true of my family.

Posted by Spike (# 36) on :

I'm the youngest of four.

My eldest sister was married to an Anglican priest, so did all the usual "Vicar's wife" stuff at church, but since they divorced she rarely goes near a church.

The other two sisters drifted away from the church a long time ago.

So here am I, the youngest, a Licensed Reader, member of Deanery Synod and liturgical anorak.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

I'm a twin. My twin brother had an evangelical conversion experience at Art College and I followed suit at university about 3 months later. We were 19.

Now, 36 years later, he repudiates the experience and is very anti-evangelical and finds fault with every single form of Christian faith one might mention - yet maintains that he retains a form of faith - but it is rather vague and 'genius-locii'-ish. He essentially gets some kind of vibe from certain locations in South Wales. He sort of 'clicks' with the ancient parish church where we were christened and where we had long-standing family connections, but the same thing somewhere else doesn't seem to resonate with him at all. I doubt he'd darken the door if he were ever to return to our home-town.

He's currently got a thing about Bart Ehrman despite never having read any of his works. He seems to be looking for a get-out clause.

As for me. You know me ...

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Identical or fraternal? If fraternal, I'm not sure it counts a much different than regular sibs for the purpose of this discussion.

Posted by Aravis (# 13824) on :

My mother in law is a twin. She and her brother were brought up Methodist. She has been a pillar of her local Anglican Church for 50 years, while he has never had a religious faith.
But as they're both people who see the happiness of their families as a priority, I think it's likely that their attitudes to faith had more to do with the people they married than their upbringing.

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

In some ways even fraternal twins can have interesting connections. One twin I know was notified of the death of the twin they were very close to. Their first response? "I know." Apparently even though their twin had died in his sleep and not been found for days, they had known (and dismissed as ridiculous) for days that he was dead. I would know because they called me to worry the day after it probably happened.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

I'm an identical twin.

Posted by Pomona (# 17175) on :

Eldest of two, non-religious family. Only one to have a faith. But then I was born in 1989 and my parents were born in 1964 and 1970, and my sister in 1994, so I definitely feel like I'm the outlier in those cohorts.

Posted by Moo (# 107) on :

Studies of identical twins reared apart show that they are frequently more alike than those reared together. The theory is that if you grow up with someone very much like yourself, you need to differentiate.

Moo

Posted by Uncle Pete (# 10422) on :

I am a fraternal twin. Regarding faith: we diverged in our late teens, she to nominal Christianity, me to devout Catholicism, with periods of "awaynesss" - all from snake-belly low Anglicanism. In our older years (nearly 70) we seem to have met again in nominality.

Aa for having no connections other than "regular" siblings, that is pure nonsense. I have frequently felt something was askew with her (and she me) and picked up the phone (or recently Skype) to find this was so. We live far away from each other and have done so for over 40 years. As an aside on the same day, continents apart, we both injured our ribcages in the same way (two weeks ago). When our brothers were still alive we irritated them by sending them the same messages and cards. We even, quite independently, send each other the same birthday cards.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

ISTM, the connections are coincidence and confirmation bias.
I struggle to see the mechanism which would allow distance communication.

Posted by Lamb Chopped (# 5528) on :

Does there need to be a visible mechanism? We don't have a particularly thorough understanding of our world yet.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

No, we don't have a complete understanding of our universe. We do understand confirmation bias. We do understand coincidence.
Most importantly, we don't have a lot of evidence that twin communication is anything but either of those things.
This link seems to suggest it is more myth than reality.

quote:
Segal has interviewed hundreds of twins and for the most part she hasn’t come across many instances of any special sort of twin communication.

Posted by Gwai (# 11076) on :

Of course that would also reasonably be confirmation bias. Besides it implies she has found things that could seem to be twin communication.

Not that I don't think your skepticism is reasonable. The response I quoted above to hearing one's beloved twin is dead is the only thing that persuades me it's not coincidence.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

Sceptic I remain. Though I could go further this is almost a tangent and I think there are other, less controversial components of the OP worth discussing.

Posted by Arethosemyfeet (# 17047) on :

I'm the middle of 3 siblings of a devout Anglican family, and I'm the only one still regularly attending church. Being English we've never actually talked to each other about why.

Posted by lilBuddha (# 14333) on :

I've 3 siblings. We started in the same place and took 4 different paths to end in two different places. What we chose is fairly much a reflection of our personalities as much as our experiences.

Posted by Boogie (# 13538) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I'm the middle of 3 siblings of a devout Anglican family, and I'm the only one still regularly attending church. Being English we've never actually talked to each other about why.

My story is exactly the same except for one word [Smile]

I'm the middle of 3 siblings of a devout Methodist family, and I'm the only one still regularly attending church. Being English we've never actually talked to each other about why.

Posted by North East Quine (# 13049) on :

I grew up in a nominally Presbyterian family, so not the sort of devout family that is being discussed.

However, I wonder if siblings neccessily have the same religious upbringing? My mother was very keen that I should attend church and become a church member so that I would be entitled to have a big white church wedding. (This was being discussed long before I was dating!) There was no similar encouragement to my brother to attend / join.

Posted by Schroedinger's cat (# 64) on :

One think that fraternal twins bring is that neither is definitively the oldest, although practically one will be, and that may make a difference. But they will experience most of lifes experiences at the same time.

As compared to our two, the youngest of whom had the advantage of the eldests prior experience. Not always good, but different.

I think if we accept faith as a personal thing, not just a cultural thing, then there will be differences between different individuals, however similar. That is basic chaos theory - that small, unmeasurable differences can produce hugely differing results.

Posted by Hilda of Whitby (# 7341) on :

quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
I grew up in a nominally Presbyterian family, so not the sort of devout family that is being discussed.

However, I wonder if siblings neccessily have the same religious upbringing? My mother was very keen that I should attend church and become a church member so that I would be entitled to have a big white church wedding. (This was being discussed long before I was dating!) There was no similar encouragement to my brother to attend / join.

In my family's case, I'd say yes. All of us kids were active in our church in different ways--my sister and I were in choir, my brothers were acolytes, my sister and one brother were members of the youth group at church. This was strongly encouraged by our parents.

Posted by Ethne Alba (# 5804) on :

Our of four, i'm the eldest and remain within a church fellowship. Second is Christmas and celebrations of life events.
Third is celebration of life events .
Fourth is midway between agnostic and atheist and last i heard, doesn't even like entering a church building.

My own thoughts are similar to something mentioned upthread, I reckon it's more to do with our life partners/ very close friends.
Or it is/ was in our family's cases.

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Of my siblings (4 of them) I'm the only one to have kept with the 'church thing' from childhood.

The oldest: I'm told is a humanist, sometimes goes to a Friends' meeting, takes communion at family funerals.

2nd child: self-describes as an atheist, takes communion at family funerals.

3rd: stopped church-going at 12; now attends occasionally "for the music" choral Matins or Evensong.

4th: ME! CofE, but prefer to describe as a church-goer, rather than as Christian.

5th: like the rest of us, baptised & confirmed CofE, 1st marriage as Greek Orthodox, 2nd a civil ceremony, 3rd Russian Orthodox, self-describes as Buddhist (described by those family in touch with them as nihilist or "amoral shit")

As for the thing about twins and faith/belief, I'll speak to mine and ask if they'd like to post in their own words.

*** Forgot the step sibs!***

Oldest - evangelical writer and broadcaster, describes my sibs and me as "godless"
2nd - Brethren (think Exclusive, could be some other sort?), concurs with the oldest's opinion of us
3rd - was Evangelical Baptist, now MOR Anglican after massive fallout with both their church and the sibs; the only one to stay in touch with my sibs and me after our parent died
4th - self-describes as Baptist but doesn't go anywhere

All four steps were brought up as Evangelical Baptists, all treated our mother like sh*t.

[ 08. March 2017, 16:04: Message edited by: L'organist ]

Posted by Penny S (# 14768) on :

I have twin nieces, probably identical, but not provably (they decided not to be tested). This is not, however, about their religion. They were brought up with both parents being mathematicians. One has become another maths teacher. The other won't have anything to do with the subject.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

As an identical twin I don't think there's anything 'spooky' in the way that twins seem often to be on the same wave-length or 'know' things about the other. But then, I've nothing to compare it with apart from marriage - where you gradually become more attuned to how your partner thinks and feels.

My father had a twin sister - and it's unusual for twins to follow so quickly across the generations - they normally skip one or two I'm told. (Should I say 'has' a twin sister? He's dead, the sister is still alive).

My grandmother told quite a striking tale of him leading her to where his sister had been injured - it was during the War and some kids were playing with detonators they'd found in the shed the Home Guard used - despite him being some distance from the spot and unaware of what had happened.

I'm not sure what went on there but don't imagine there was anything spooky or psychic going on.

It seems to me that faith choices and changes are the result of a whole range of environmental and other factors - personality type, education, influences ... and the sibling element is only one of many potential influences one way or another.

I'm not sure it makes that much difference to the overall scheme of things.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

There's a quite famous novel in which twin communication plays a crucial role: Twin Planets by Robert Heinlein.

Posted by Dave W. (# 8765) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
There's a quite famous novel in which twin communication plays a crucial role: Twin Planets by Robert Heinlein.

Perhaps you mean Time for the Stars.

Posted by Brenda Clough (# 18061) on :

Oops, so right. I thought about checking but the phone rang....

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

I have noticed a tendency for first-borns (stereotypically conscientious and conforming) to stick with their childhood faith, and for youngest siblings (stereotypically more laid back) to remain insouciantly resistant to, or oblivious of, the same early religious training.

Things didn't work out quite this way in my parents' families. Both of my parents were the second eldest in large families. In neither family was the firstborn the most religious child. My second-born parents weren't the most religious either.

Mind you, I wouldn't say that everything else was equal. My father and his older sister are outliers in their family. What stands out among the rest, who've all retained a strong religiosity, is that they're very close to each other. Their allegiance to the same denomination is one of the things that holds them together. But my father had to go abroad (i.e. come to the UK) at a formative time in his life, while his older sister was practically the breadwinner at one point, rather than one of the gang. Also, when their mother settled on a particular denomination for membership I think these two were too old to slot in neatly. The other children hadn't known much else, so it must have been easier for them.

So the upbringing of different siblings is obviously a factor. But diasporic families like mine can also find that migration has a significant impact on Christian religiosity, either enhancing it (as often happens in the USA) or decreasing it (as is often the case in the UK). The impact can be noticeable on a personal level when different family members live in different societies.

[ 09. March 2017, 22:18: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

Posted by L'organist (# 17338) on :

Actually the organist's twins.

We've read the stuff above and thought about the faith thing.

Oldest: I go occasionally but mainly to support the parent. We both make a point of going to the All Souls Requiem, and one of our friends who has also lost a parent now comes with us.

I was massively put-off by the CU people at uni - frankly they gave any kind of church a bad name and the attitude of non-christian foreign students was that if they represented christianity they wanted nothing to do with it.

I do sometimes find myself going to an Evensong, and if anything draws me back to church its going to be the music. But I'd like to get married in church and have any children baptized.

Twin Two, aka The Bonus Baby, here!
Read what the bro said - agree with most. God-squad at uni were a bunch of weird nutters who spent all their time being irritating, plus telling us all how sinful we were. I got really angry when the leader of the God-squad tried to tell me the parent had died because it was 'all part of god's plan': I count as a major achievement that I didn't punch him.

I was lucky to study near a university and got into the habit of matins on a Sunday on the way to football, and I did an evensong or two if I felt a bit down or needed to think. BUT got hugely put off by some priest who decided to draw me out: I was in tears (anniversary of death) and foolshly told this guy why, so I got a lot of weird stuff about him being "alongside" me and "trying to find God in their death" - horrible. All I could think was that my priest grandfather would never have been so crass.

As Nat said, we go to the Faure Requiem and I like going to the carol service. I went to matins last month and may try another but we're off travelling soon so it'll have to wait.

Faith? I'm not sure. I find it hard to believe that a benevolent parent caused us to lose a parent so horribly and most of the so-called christians I've encountered trying to justify it have made that feeling worse.

Getting married in church? Sure, because the paroid would blow a fuse if I didn't!

JUST BEEN TOLD WE SHOULD HAVE GIVEN YOU THIS:

We're 23 year old identical "mirror" twins - 1 left-handed 1 right-handed - still based at home (student debt) and still spend most of our time together. We work in the same place and are going travelling together - Aus, NZ, south seas.

[ 10. March 2017, 13:06: Message edited by: L'organist ]

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

The reference to the CU folk is interesting.

I had very little to do with them when I went to uni. Why would I? I'm a Methodist. The CU is a particular type of evangelical organisation, and hence unsuited to Christians of other traditions.

The problem seems to be that non-evangelical organisations have become so weak that they're unable to 'represent' Christianity at universities, if they're on campus at all. This is a serious indictment of non-evangelical movements. (I'm not sure these thoughts are particularly relevant to the issue of siblings, though.)

With regard to parents, I've read that fathers and mothers don't have exactly the same kind of influence when it comes to christianising their children. If you combine this with the reality that most parents have a slightly different relationship with each of their children then you can perhaps see how children in the same family might follow different spiritual trajectories.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

I'm not so sure that non-CU Christian organisations are weak on campus these days ... From what I can gather they tend to scoop up some of the fall-out from the CU and other evangelical groups.

I've been told by a number of university chaplains that whereas students would often go evangelical in their first year and broaden out gradually over time, these days the process is accelerated. They get all evangelical in their first year, then more liberal in the second and then agnostic or atheist in their final year ...

The chaplains I've talked to see their role as trying to present an alternative that enables them to maintain their faith but in a more nuanced way. I'm not sure how successful they are or otherwise ...

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

So the assumption is that students will inevitably join CU first, regardless of its suitability for them, and that the purpose of non-evangelical groups is to service those who leave.

To me, this pattern is somewhat strange, and it doesn't really suggest that the non-evangelical groups are strong. If they were strong they'd cut out the dodgy middle man!

[ 10. March 2017, 22:32: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

I just think it's the way it is. The CUs tend to have a higher profile. What I've described is probably broad-brush and a kind of default position.

Posted by SvitlanaV2 (# 16967) on :

If the mainstream set-ups want to be strong and normative then they need to claim the high profile for themselves. Otherwise they're only ever going to be reactive, allowing others to set the agenda.

On this subject, this book might be an interesting read.

To get back on topic, I think my experience of being a Christian at university was more consolidating of my faith than my brother's experience, although it's not something we've discussed. At heart I think there are subtly different challenges for men and women regarding faith, even today, and this may well play out in a relationship involving brothers and sisters.

[ 11. March 2017, 10:25: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Sure, but at the risk of keeping things off topic, one of the issues the 'mainstream' or more liberal churches face is how to achieve that kind of high profile you're talking about without taking a leaf out of the evangelicals' book and being all pushy about it ...

The standard liberal Protestant or indeed RC tactic on campuses seems to be to 'loiter with intent' as an RC priest once described it - or to be available when needed. Sometimes this involves dealing with evangelical fall-out ...

That said, I have seen some RC activity on campus that has verged on being pushy ... but it is rare for that to happen.

Coming back to the siblings issue - yes, I can see what you're getting at there and would agree that there are a whole range of factors in play - socio-economic, gender, community/racial issues and all sorts of other factors besides.

Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:

Now, 36 years later, he repudiates the experience and is very anti-evangelical and finds fault with every single form of Christian faith one might mention - yet maintains that he retains a form of faith - but it is rather vague and 'genius-locii'-ish. He essentially gets some kind of vibe from certain locations in South Wales. He sort of 'clicks' with the ancient parish church where we were christened and where we had long-standing family connections, but the same thing somewhere else doesn't seem to resonate with him at all.

Sorry to pick on you for a moment - but does your twin have the same artistic bent that you do? I'm just wondering about the connection between 'clicking with locations' vs being having some kind of artistic outlet (there are also parallels here with what you have said previously about the energies of the welsh revival being diverted into various cultural forms).

I'm one of four brothers (no twins) and alternate pairs are very much alike, to the point of having roughly similar faith trajectories until a certain point in life. The experience of coincidentally buying each other the same gifts/books/cards/music etc is very much a phenomena.

Posted by chris stiles (# 12641) on :

quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:

To me, this pattern is somewhat strange, and it doesn't really suggest that the non-evangelical groups are strong. If they were strong they'd cut out the dodgy middle man!

Tangent alert; but just remember that these groups are comprised in the main of people who are very young and are still undergoing much of their formation themselves. ISTM that some of the non-evangelical groups are deliberately low key because of a combination of trying not to be like the CU and the assumption that the right people will find them.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

@Chris - my twin brother is an artist. He paints. He doesn't do it for a living but he has had a number of exhibitions. He's not as 'literary' as me but he is something of a performance poet in a South Walian vernacular kind of way.

I'm more formally 'academic' than he is but we're generally on the same page when it comes to our aesthetic sensibilities.

He's verging on the agnostic faith-wise now - thinks Bart Ehrman is on the right lines - despite never having read any of his work.

What I don't quite 'get' is how places can 'get' to him in a genius locii type way but the choreography and symbolism of liturgical worship doesn't - 'It's just a ritual like Morris Dancing ... All that happens when you get baptised is that you get wet ... It's not the Body and Blood of Christ, it's just a bit of bread and a sip of sherry ...'

And so on.

Posted by anoesis (# 14189) on :

Interesting stuff, this. Obviously it's never going to get past the point of being anecdotes, but it's still fascinating to read what people have to say.

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
One possibility is that it has something to do with position in the family.

I have noticed a tendency for first-borns (stereotypically conscientious and conforming) to stick with their childhood faith, and for youngest siblings (stereotypically more laid back) to remain insouciantly resistant to, or oblivious of, the same early religious training.

I am the eldest, and I think conscientious and conforming are good words to describe me (also anxious and introverted). My younger sister is, yes, more laid back in approach to life, possibly less of a deep thinker, or possibly just less of an agoniser.

I left seventeen years of marinating in fundagelicalism to go straight to University and stay there for several years. I attended church (ha, ha) religiously the whole time, and study groups and so on, but my views on many issues became more and more liberal as time went on, and in tandem with this (correlation rather than causation, I think), I began on a trajectory (some would say a slippery slope) of moving away from pentecostal-type stuff, via the Baptists, to the more evangelical end of Anglicanism, to the higher end of Anglicanism, to, eventually, nothing. My faith sort of petered out and it didn't feel like a big deal in the end when I realised it was gone. (I was in my thirties by then).

My sister, on the other hand, left seventeen years of marinating in fundagelicalism to move straight in with her (non-religious) boyfriend. Cue much wailing and gnashing of teeth on the part of my mother, to which the response was indeed 'insousciance'. She has not, to my knowledge, spent a second of thought on faith, churches, or bibles since that day. BUT: she retains the social conservatism we were bought up with, in a fairly big way, just with nothing in particular underpinning it, so far as I can see. Roles of women vs. roles of men. Gays is bad. Unions is bad. Communists is bad. People with tattoos is bad. On what basis, I have no idea at all. I try to ignore it and focus on the good bits, of which there are many.

[ 13. March 2017, 07:04: Message edited by: anoesis ]

Posted by BabyWombat (# 18552) on :

I am youngest of three, the only boy, all raised Roman Catholic. Mother a daily communicant, frequenter of various novenas to Our Lady, and pleased if a family vacation might include a pilgrimage spot. (My sisters and I learned early on that we either had to use the loo very early on Saturday or else writhe in bed needing badly to wee but holding it in until Mom left for morning Mass. Otherwise we were required to dress quickly and join her. To this day we have good bladder control.)

We are all still faithful in practice, and all live thousands of miles apart.
Oldest still RC.

Middle child devotedly RC until the then Pope took pot shots at American nuns. Having known many devoted nuns during her years working in healthcare she harrumphed, and joined TEC. Was thrilled that the bishop receiving her was female, held her hand, and knew her name.

I was devotedly RC as well, until coming out, when TEC seemed far more welcoming. When my partner and I could finally get married (on what we counted as our 27th anniversary!) both attended the TEC service and took communion. Neither came to my ordination, but sent a lovely stole.

Posted by Gamaliel (# 812) on :

Weren't RCs allowed to pee before Mass?

[Eek!]

Posted by BabyWombat (# 18552) on :

Ah yes….. perhaps it was somewhere in Aquinas? ….. but in My Mother's House there were few options: if one was awake enough to pee, one was awake enough to attend morning Mass…….

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